"Well it has been just over a week now since the news dropped that Lucille and I will be moving to plant Hillsong LA. I must admit the response has been completely overwhelming."
Ben Houston (son of Hillsong founders)
In the fall of 2012 rumors began circulating that Hillsong Church (based in Sydney, Australia) planned to establish a new church in Los Angeles. It already has locations in London, New York City, Paris, Stockholm, Amsterdam and other cities around the world.
Four months ago those rumors were confirmed when the following announcement was made by Charisma News:
Hillsong Church founding pastor Brian Houston announced that the megachurch, which already has 11 congregations worldwide, will be starting a new church in Los Angeles.
“God is good and His timing is perfect!” Houston wrote Tuesday in a blog post explaining the new venture. “Los Angeles is a city of millions of people—people chasing broken dreams, people desperate for hope in a higher cause, people longing for meaningful relationships with one another. Hillsong Church is about all those things. It is about ‘welcoming home’ the lost, the broken, the hurting, and the lonely. It’s about connecting families; building purpose and value into everyONE and it is about seeing the Good News of Jesus Christ proclaimed everywhere—including the bright lights of big cities like LA.”
As you might imagine, this announcement is being met with mixed emotions, as described in these opposing viewpoints.
adamthebrave wrote:
This is great news! Praying for Ben and his family as they make this big move and that God will use them in amazing ways in a city that so clearly needs Jesus.
RunGirlRunLA responded:
No, this is horrible news! This is one of the last things that L.A. needs – yet another hip, glossy, "fresh" and "relevant" mega-chain church that thinks it needs to reach the SoCal sinners. Ben Houston's "explanation" about God calling him to Los Angeles seems less like the Lord speaking than it seems to be simply one's own desire to market a global church brand. While L.A. has some excellent churches, it also has too much of its share of "pastors", "apostles", etc. in stadiums entertaining ad nauseum and leading too many sheeple to the slaughterhouse. Planting another church is not the solution.
Then JoshFX chimed in with this:
Look out LA…..!!
Mega ERROR is on its way…which given the current heart of humanity, will no doubt be embraced, and become for 'Hillsong', another milestone in their attempt to present 'another gospel' to a spiritually starved world….hungry for Truth, and yet, open and prepared to embrace this counterfeit Gospel.
I rejoice not.
And Aaron countered with this affirmation regarding Hillsong:
You obviously aren't familiar with the hillsong movement. Tens of thousands are returning to the church, repenting from their sins and getting baptized. I know countless stories of this happening. People will always take shots that the people in the spotlight. I honor Brian Houston and the movement he has started. The global church is better because of Hillsong. Most of the time it is our envy that keeps us from celebrating the victories of other ministries.
When Hillsong made its announcement last fall, The Christian Post published this article Will Los Angeles-Area Churches Be 'Swallowed Whole' When Hillsong Arrives? which states:
Despite assurances from Ben Houston that the Hillsong LA church he feels called to plant a church in Southern California will "not build on anyone else's foundation," some observers are concerned that the popular megachurch's expansion to the Golden State could mean a substantial loss of members for already-established churches in the area.
The CP article concludes as follows:
Hillsong LA, apparently set to become the megachurch's 11th non-Australian congregation, would join several other well-known churches already in Southern California, such as Pastor Greg Laurie's Harvest Orange County, Pastor Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa, and Pastor Rick Warren's Saddleback Church in Lake Forest. Despite not yet having a physical location, the soon-to-be congregation has already attracted more than 7,000 followers and supporters across its social networks.
Hillsong Church was founded by Brian and Bobbie Houston in 1983 as Sunday night outreach meetings that initially attracted a few dozen people. Now, the Sydney megachurch, affiliated with Australian Christian Churches (the Assemblies of God in Australia) is the country's largest and hosts over 30,000 worshippers every weekend.
Four years ago we wrote extensively on the prosperity preachers, primarily the ones in the United States. During those five weeks or so, I remember coming across a YouTube video featuring a man with an accent whom I did not recognize. He was on stage promoting a book on MONEY. It was comical because he was teaching people how to be a Money Magnet. That man was Brian Houston, and he was promoting his book tape series on money entitled You Need More Money (published in 2000).
The video has since disappeared from YouTube, and Houston's book is no longer in print; however, there are three one-star reviews on Amazon that provide some indication of the book's focus.
UPDATE (1/7/14 @ 10:00 p.m.)
The video I tried to embed was in the post Ed Young Jr: A (w)hole Nutha Level. Unfortunately, it can no longer be accessed. However, I just remembered that I embedded a different version in our post How Pastors Get Rich, which I have added below. The phrase that unfortunately got cut off at the end of the clip is: "as you become a money magnet".
In the time that has passed since You Need More Money was published, Hillsong has had tremendous financial $UCCE$$. There are those in Australia who are starting to investigate this lucrative organization that enjoys tax-free status. It is indeed a money magnet!
For those who may consider getting involved with Hillsong LA, we believe caution is in order. More and more people are questioning the finances and leadership of this international megachurch. Please do your homework and pray for discernment.
We believe Hillsong is just another religious franchise that is putting its particular 'brand' in the Christian marketplace – this time in the 'Golden State'. It is happening all over the country and world with other church franchises (called church plants), and we can't help but wonder what Christendom will look like after these franchise wars play out. We will have much more on this topic in upcoming posts.
We leave you with a preview of what Hillsong LA will likely be hearing in the months and years to come from Brian Houston and his son Ben.
Lydia's Corner: Isaiah 45:11-48:11 Ephesians 4:1-16 Psalm 68:19-35 Proverbs 24:3-4
Franchise is the right word to use. These churches use the same methodology as fast food companies. Each cries, our hamburger is better.
Most of the “growth” in Evangelicalism comes from people changing denominations or churches. For all their talk about saving souls, very few souls are being saved. Even here in static, dying, aging, rural NW Ohio, we have new churches being started. They come in with great fanfare…and in time either close or become just just like the churches they were supposed to be different from.
Truth is….America needs fewer churches, not more. Sadly the corporate mindset rules Evangelicalism. It is a predatory religion that devours and destroys. (And I am aware that there are a few exceptions)
I agree with you, Bruce. What in the world is going on? Do you think this is the great apostasy? People are following anybody!! Not everyone who names the name of Jesus is a Christian. What is this video about? Sounds like he needs some tithers.
I think Aaron’s whole comment above, says it all. How tragic. As Jimmy Durante said, “Everybody wants to get into the act!”. Repentance, church, baptism are referred to, but nowhere, Jesus or the gospel, only Brian Houston and “his” movement. John the Baptist served thousands of people who repented of sin and were baptized in repentance, but when Christ came, John knew it was time to decrease, because he was only there to prepare the way. Not so with the celebrity pastors, at least, that’s not how it most often looks.
aside from the fact that “LA” means dozens of cities each with many churches, there are already 1,900 Christian churches just in Los Angeles proper itself (per yellow pages.com).
soon to be 1,901. sigh.
I have the feeling I used to have when I worked in the snack bar in high school, breathing in French fries every day. They began to be repulsive. It was just too much.
Brian Houston, there simply isn’t room for you.
but i guess you’re coming to crowd in anyway, forcing everyone to shift around you. So, how many do you plan to displace?
reminds me of the foreigners who visit my town, buy up real estate, and then go back to their countries with their financial stake in the ground. How it impacts our community never enters their mind.
Mr. Houston is selling a brand. He can call it a “church” all he wants but he’s not really any different than Starbucks. He has already heavily influenced the contemporary christian music industry so now he’s just expanding the brand in a place he’s already had success in one facet. So instead of just Wal-mart there’s Super Wal-mart along with Target and Super Target (I have no idea if Target differentiates between stores that do and don’t carry groceries) and a half dozen other grocery stores all in a five block radius. Market saturation is bad thing.
People get angry and upset and hate the new store that comes in because it destroys customer base and if a new building has to be built, the new store may contract for workers out of state and that’s also going to piss people off for taking jobs. Most people like one or two stores and stick to them. New stores might be bright and shiny and new for awhile but the newness wears off and people go back to the old stores or atop using new and old storesaltogether. Translate this to churches and you can see where this is going.
Churches have become just another product to sell on Sundays
Whoops. To continue…
Jesus is not a thing to sell. He is a Person to a relationship with. He’s not going to care if you attend the shiny new hip all that church. Especially if that’s all that you do. He wants you. The building just keeps you warm and dry and the bugs out. I’m not saying don’t go to church but be discerning about your reasons. Think, don’t abdicate your brain or ability to have your own relationships.
And Merry Christmas since today January 7th is Julian calender Christmas.
This is timely and on subject. Deals with Hillsong church in NYC.
http://vimeo.com/83440952
Of possible interest, Thabiti’s comments re: Hillsong in #7 below — http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/thabitianyabwile/2013/10/23/ja-rule-exposes-my-sinful-heart/
Oh trust me Aaron. I don’t envy Hillsong at all.
Also this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj6G7MC85Rw
@ TW:
Excellent videoblog by Chris Rosebrough! Thanks for sharing the link. I hope everyone will take the time to watch.
I meant Chris Rosenburgh in my post…oops brain fart!
@ Hester:
It's no wonder these guys TARGET a young, naive crowd.
@ TW:
TW..I watched this video this morning and with what he is saying he would almost validate Mark Driscoll or CJ Mahaney in their teaching, and say it was Biblical because of what they say about homosexuality. What has Chris Rosenburgh said about SGM or Mars Hill Seattle?
@ Hester:
HA, HA I’ve seen that in the past. Priceless!
I wonder what our Aussie commenters will have to say… Hillsong scares me.
Bruce Gerencser wrote:
You nailed it. Souls are not being saved. Oh, they claim that they are but the stats are not showing it.
There is the benefits that are given to the pastors by the people who participate in the start up: laptops, IPhones, IPads, etc. Most of the money in these startup go to the salaries of the pastors.
They also claim that their ministry is the church itself. Ed Young Jr. used to say that they didn’t support missions because they were the mission. He was living very, very well for a missionary even back then.
Brenda wrote:
Here is the sad thing about all of this. If it was limited to prosperity preachers, it would be one thing. But it isn’t. The “gospel” preachers are following a similar tactic and getting wealthy in the process. And they would claim that their theology is perfectly sound-Calvin, Spurgeon, yackety yack…
elastigirl wrote:
About the same as Driscoll and the other satellite stars hope to replace.
@ Ozymandias:
Here is Thabiti’s quote
“7. I’m tempted to judge the methods of other churches and to doubt God’s use of them. I hear “Hillsong” and I squint that suspicious disapproving squint. As if God’s hand is shortened that He can’t reach people in a service unlike the service I think is “right” or at least “more faithful.” By the way, I know nothing about Hillsong. There’s that Pharisee again.”
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/thabitianyabwile/2013/10/23/ja-rule-exposes-my-sinful-heart/
Now, ask the question: why is he being so ‘nonjudgemental’ of this movement. Could it be that he sees it in his neck of the theological woods and must defend it?
@ dee:
addendum
Baloney on his not knowing about HIllsong. He most certainly does and he is trying to play the game of “I didn’t know about that?” which gets him out of hot water when the expose starts.
dee wrote:
——————–
Yes, too true, sad as it is.
Our former church has made the switch from generously supporting foreign missions to now supporting one lock, “mission “, themselves.
Have seen a few souls come to know the Lord in the past few years. Their testimonies all have a common theme……spirit of God worked upon their hearts, in concert with, the witnessing of friends, family, while reading, while in a crisis (praying) etc. Have not witnessed a soul getting saved in church.
Ugh…..local, not lock.
Oh goody, another ‘whip them up into a frenzy with light shows and music so the money will jump out of their pockets to support my extravagant lifestyle’ fake gospel. First clue: when you walk in you’re not entering a church, you’re entering a theater with a stage and props to entertain and create the perfect atmosphere for a scam. If Houston, Driscoll, Furtick, et. al. are conducting church services, where is the alter? Where is the cross or any other symbol of Christianity? There are none, because they are selling their ‘brand’ which they feature prominently instead of an alter or cross. They promise you health, prosperity, and a feeling of euphoria if only you would empty your pockets to them.
Nothing more than an updated version of the old medicine shows peddling a different snake oil. They could just as well be selling weight loss pills, penny stocks, or a Nigerian Prince’s fortune just waiting to be smuggled to your doorstep.
Funny how they always ‘plant’ in the affluent locations around the world – the suckers have more money extract.
@ JeffT:
Yep. No doubt Hillsong’s LA franchise will be successful on paper, but that’s not what concerns the Almighty.
why don’t they plant in south central L.A.? I am in a state with a very visible church planter. He planted a multi-site campus in the city where I live. He planted it in a fairly wealthy, upscale area. I had a friend ask him, why are you planting a church in X area where there are already so many churches. Why not go to X area of the city where it is very poor and predominately Hispanic. Very little work is being done there. His response: you can’t grow a church in those areas. I am all for church planting in areas where it is needed. Show me a church plant in the poorest of areas, then I’ll get excited.
Does this mean we’re gonna see a turf war (drive-bys and all) between Hillsong, Saddleback, and Mars Hill?
PP wrote:
No tithe $$$$$$$$$$$$ there.
That’s why you church-plant in Beverly Hills, Bel Air, New Porsche Beach, Costa Lotta…
dee wrote:
“I KNOW NOTHINK! NOTHINK!”
— Sgt Schultz
“Lot$ of $oul$ are being $AVED!”
Exactly what Mike Warnke’s fanboys said to defend his Ministry(TM) when Cornerstone exposed him as a complete fraud.
When my family first moved to our town in east TX, we attempted to attend a service at the local mega-church. 5 trumpets announced the start of worship and the spotlights moved dramatically to the stage, much as you would expect if you were attending a concert. I was so disgusted that I got up and walked out. I then understood how the church earned the nickname of “Six Flags Over Jesus”. I think some of these people have church and concert mixed up.
Dee, if you are looking for websites to evaluate….
https://churchmetrics.com
“Keep tabs on information like attendance, giving, salvations, baptisms, and more.
Track any data you choose — if you can count it, you can track it!
See your church’s historical data clearly in simple charts, reports, and dashboards.”
My dh has software like this to track sales data for online stores. To see a church track people like they are goods is disgusting. Keeping tabs on numbers of “salvations” makes my heart ache. What is it like for those “salvations” when they realise they are notches on a spreadsheet?
Brought to the waiting world by the “Digital missions” of lifechurch.tv
“The ‘Religion Nightmare’ Never Ending; Take Another Step?”
hmmm…
Well the nightmare religion band was playing on,
The red flags were waving,
And there you were,
Were you listening to that small voice that said, “trust Jesus”?
Suddenly,
In the middle of a sunny day,
They rained on your parade?
As the religion crowds were cheering,
The sky was darkening, no one noticed,
They had not a worry in the world,
Marching on sure and steady, strong and straight?
taking another step spell’d disaster…
Suddenly,
And another step and then another step…
Then the lightning flashed,
The thunder crashed,
Suddenly,
It began to rain and everybody ran,
Then the sky went black as midnight,
And you couldn’t see,
Paralyzed by what you just couldn’t begin to understand,
And now here you are,
You’re afraid to move,
You don’t know where to go,
You don’t know what to do,
Take another step, take another step?
To where?
When the road ahead is dark,
And you don’t know where to go?
Take another step, take another step?
Suddenly?
Why not trust God, read His book, N’ take another step?
Trust Him, read His book, N’ take another step?
What?
We walk by faith and not by sight we know it’s true,
We say it, N’ we sing it often, N’ love the way it sounds? toot!
But none of us can even begin to truly understand,
What it really means ‘til all the “church” lights go out’,
and what you’ve been holding on to turns to sinking sand?
Suddenly,
There is nothing to hold on to,
But the Bible promises God’s made to me and you?
Take another step, take another step?
When the road ahead is dark?
And you don’t know where to go?
Take another step, take another step?
huh?
…nothing to hold on to?
Shreeeeeetch!
(bump)
Trust God, read His book, N’ take another step!
yeah!
…YOU!
Is there an proverbial ocean in front of you?
Do you know what you’ve gotta do?
Taking another step, N’ another step?
Will Jesus turn the water under your feet into dry land?
Will He take your hand and say,
“Let’s take a walk on the waves?”
Gump!
Will you trust Him either way?
hmmm…
Trust God, read His book, N’ take another step?
Take another step?
Take another step?
Take another step?
Trust God, read His book, N’ take another step!
Take another step!
When the road ahead is dark,
And you don’t know where to go,
Take another step,
Take another step,
Trust God’ read His book, N’ take another step!
And another step!
And another step!
Whew!
Take another step trusting Jesus, and take another step N’ another step N’ another step N’ another step N’ another step, N’ another step N’ another step N’ another step! **
There ya go!
(smily face goes here)
Sopy
___
** Steven Curtis Chapman – ““Take Another Step”, Copyright © : (P) 2013, Steven Curtis Chapman; Provident Label Group, LLC; A division of Sony Music Entertainment.
(lyrics reflect parody adaptation, disclaimer: U.S. Title 17 infringement unintended.)
Bonus: Steven Curtis Chapman – “Take Another Step” (Steve talks about the song)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tq8XYzzowtw
Comic relief: Chuck Jones: Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote — The Myth and the Truth?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TYByWgSJSM
;~)
—
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Are we going to have a new version of the crips and the bloods? Meaning if there are going to be new gangs that are being created what will be the gang names?
Hillsong – Zcechs
Mars Hill – Spurgeons
Saddleback – Purps (as in Purpose Driven… 😉
So here is the question I would like to ask…honest discussion please. Would you still listen to Hillsong music? If you’re Lutheran or Catholic that negates the question in many ways. But what about the rest of you?
Bruce Gerencser wrote:
Brenda wrote:
My two cents:
So here is American protestantism:
(1) health and wealth gospel empire building-with hollow promises and pat answers
(2) others (like the neo-cals) who copy the health and wealth guys to empire building, with their own variety of pat answers
(3) hyper-fundamentalism who build their claim to a place in the sunshine with condemnation of everything and everybody whenever possible–and, oh yes, their own substitute subculture rife with rules and shibboleths-and don’t forget pat answers
(4) the “nuance” crowd who re-define and explain away everything in the Jesus story that might be offensive to anybody because, after all, what God requires of people is only that they be nice- short on answers (pat or not) but long on platitudes
(5) and the increasing numbers of folks who have just given up and pulled out , in one form or another
(6) the remnant, a good old time idea which might be applicable here
And then there is the RCC trying to address its own issues with, among other things, the new evangelization to deal with a catechetical desert among the younger generations, according to what they themselves say. Hey, at least they are working at it. More power to you guys right now.
I don’t know if this is “the” great apostasy, but some of it sure looks like “an” apostasy.
So Tabiti sees God still at work.? Of course. Does anybody think that God would throw up His hands and just quit? Tabiti writes well, but maybe his thinking is not very razor sharp on this issue, since he seems to imply that if Hillsong had not been available then this rapper would not have come to Christ? Really? And this guy is a calvinist?
I don’t listen to hillsong music.
But hey, I have a question for them. Why not plant a church in Hoehne CO, in Loco Hills,NM in Fairfield ND, or some other remote spot without a church?
Eagle–don’t let the idea of instant sanctification get you down. Rather, read up on what Wesley taught. He wasn’t all that hot on instant, but even with instant it was an instant where you knew God had BEGUN, not finished, the work.
Eagle wrote:
No, I won’t and will not buy it either. I won’t buy or listen to CCM artists whose theology I have big differences with. Not going to make folks rich who would keep me in bondage.
Church in America is a business. Pure and simple. If you ever forget that you’ll eventually experience disappointment if not the wrecking of your faith. Never let your spiritual life fall into the hands of a celebrity “Christian.” Follow the money.
Deebs…
On links can I recommend linking to Phoenix Preacher and Warren Throckmorton? I think both would compliment your blog!
@ Lin:
I don’t think I would put Hillsong in the same catagory as CCM. I would suggest that Hillsong/Vineyard/Passion/Jesus Culture, etc… are very different from Ginney Owns, Stephen Curtis Chapman, Rebecca St. James, etc…
Two different styles.
Eagle wrote:
Makes no difference to me on music style…..if I sense any group is out to huckster me on the gospel I won’t listen/purchase. Doesn’t have to just be the CCM style.
Mandy wrote:
What happens when someone (not necessarily a 501c) plants in town with an even more kickin’ concert experience?
Eagle wrote:
Plenty!
@ PP:
“His response: you can’t grow a church in those areas.”
++++++++++++++++
I guess my thought is how does one define “grow” and “a church” in this context. if the target is the stereotypical slick facility and nice salaries, well of course not. but why in the world should this even be the goal?
what might “an area” need? why is it always another cookie-cutter Christian, Inc. franchise, sweeping in to save the day with video screens, a staff of male heroes trying hard to look edgy in a coiffed sort of way, and some marketing word for a name? I’m expecting “Erection” (church) to show up any day now. (In an affluent area, of course. always that)
how about a recreational youth center of some kind, with jobs to offer to people in the community. Sports activities. Music and art groups and teaching and experiences. After school tutoring. College and career fairs or at least conversations. Skills training. A place where people can give back. A “Pay It Forward Depot” of sorts.
I mean, aren’t you just sick of spiffy & glamorous Jesus?
PP wrote:
With you all the way, PP. I think it was Bill Wilson* who responded to the opposite challenge (i.e. why don’t you go and plant in a rich, quiet neighbourhood) by saying that if the gospel doesn’t work in deepest Brooklyn, it doesn’t work at all.
I think he’s right. How can there be an area where Jesus can’t go? Your visible church planter chap may not be able to grow a church there, but I bet God can. And if the rich white men aren’t up to it, so much the better – God’ll do it with poor Hispanic women.
* If you’ve not come across Bill Wilson, his wiki entry is well worth a look – it’s very short, but very encouraging.
Las Vegas type shows….MBA business plans applied to church growth….is Jesus someplace in this mix? Or has he like Elvis, ” left the building?”
@Eagle – my church sings a lot of Hillsong music and I do enjoy the songs. I could see why some folks wouldn’t support it though. IN other news, they did a Mars Hill song last Sunday and I wasn’t too keen on that, though the song was straight from scripture.
@PP – I would love for churches to target the needy areas. But it doesn’t happen a lot, or neary at all. Except for the guy who had the Dream Center in LA, and I really don’t know anything about his theology.
I’ve watched Brian Houston a number of times on Christian TV. His sermons are basically Joel Osteen-ish with an Aussie accent.
A former Hillsong church member, Tanya Levin, wrote a book about her experiences at the Hillsong church) and has been quoted in interviews.
If you plug her name into Google, you will get many interviews with her.
Here is Google Books’ page about her book:
People in Glass Houses: An Insider’s Story of Life in and Out of Hillsong by Tanya Levin
Like I said, though, if you put her name into Google, other pages will turn up, like an interview she gave about Hillsong to Sydney Morning Herald, and she’s in a video on You Tube called “Hillsong Church Exposed (Tanya Levin) – YouTube”
I’d link to this stuff myself, but I think we’re limited to about one link per post(?)
(off topic)
I am hoping to hear parodies of this soon, from someone. New from Elevation:
ELEVATION CREATIVE: I WILL FIGHT (song / mp3)
Former CLC’er wrote:
If I am not mistaken, I am pretty sure there is more than one Dream Center.
I watch lots of Christian TV, which includes shows where preachers from various states are interviewed, and in the past 2 – 3 years, I’m pretty sure I’ve heard a few of them from different regions mentioning that their cities have Dream Centers too, where they give free clothing and food to homeless people and domestic abuse victims.
@ elastigirl:
Yes. Sick of that stereotype of Jesus. Not the Jesus I know. Some sort of twinkle-toed persona that is being used to draw people together. Thankfully, God can and does draw people to Himself even in these bastions of twinkle-toedness. But it still doesn’t make it a good or healthy environment to become more like Him. Jesus didn’t aspire to become rich, famous, or popular.
Eagle wrote:
Very true.
When I was reading a book by a Christian psychologist/doctor, he mentioned this is a big problem in churches.
He says it’s backwards from 12 Step Programs, which don’t let members get away with pretending to each other that they are perfect or lack problems.
The author explained how in a lot of churches, the members will let the new Non Christian attendee not live what most would consider a “Christian” lifestyle, but after that person accepts Christ, the members would expect perfect, godly behavior from that person within two weeks (or two months, it varies from church to church).
Even if that person is a drug addict (or what have you), three seconds after he accepts Christ, 90% of Christians around that person expect that person to be drug free, or free of whatever problems he/she had prior to conversion.
I’ve heard Christians on TV shows lament that you can’t “be real” at most churches. They plead with Christians in the audience to be vulnerable with other Christians, especially at church, and I sat there and laughed.
Sure, it would be nice if you could talk about your issues and “be real” with other Christians, but, what I found, especially after my mother died, and I got vulnerable with Christians (in church or where ever) about it, I got judged and criticized.
And advice. I got plenty of religious-y sounding advice about reading my Bible more and leaning on Jesus. 🙄
When you do open up to people, many of the ones I’ve come across then feel they have a right to judge you and tell you that you are living your life wrong and making wrong choices.
I find it easier and safer to keep my personal business to myself (unless I’m on the internet where I can talk to folks under a screen name).
@ Nick Bulbeck: “Deepest Brooklyn”? It’s a huge borough and has more than its share of trendy ‘hoods, along with some that are quietly wealthy.
It’s like saying “deepest London”- essentially meaningless without some context, though I do like the overall intent.
I met a guy yesterday who is planting a church in the poorest area in our city…no media announcement there. I am friends with another guy who planted a church in the most dangerous neighborhood in our city. He told me that every Sunday, they have something stolen from their building. But yet that small church has done much in helping the poor in that area AND called them to repentance and faith. In fact, this small church plant that can barely pay this man’s salary is leading a city wide effort to have every foster care child in a safe, Christian home. Right now, there are over 200 children in need of a home with only around 100 foster families. God is doing great work through their ministry, and again, you won’t see this man’s face on books and conferences. God always seems to do the greatest work quietly, and it is often in ways which does not attract any ink or celebrity. It’s dirty work, but that is exactly what we see Jesus and the Apostles doing.
@ Daisy: like I said earlier, am waiting for input from some Aussie readers… Hillsong is scary and, from what i’ve read in the past, very cult-like.
Huh?
In the rural areas, if a person can walk to church, be thankful there is someone else around….within walking distance and same biblical values.
i thought hillsong was some sort of “slutty Christian” contemporary rock band.
Eagle wrote:
I’d sooner listen to commercial music on network TV, and yes, even American Idol would be cruel and unusual punishment for me. Gimme Gershwin, Joni Mitchell, Led Zeppelin & Tears for Fears (and other artists too numerous to mention) any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
This is one of the things I don’t understand about seeker friendly type churches, the thinking they can lure in more people with Kool Rock Bands and preachers in flip flops and goatees.
After having been forced to endure wearing stiff, itchy, girly girl, pink dresses with uncomfortable dress shoes to church services as a kid, I do appreciate that most churches (including the seeker friendlies) have gone lax on dress codes and expectations the past several years (but I’m not happy in some churches it’s gone to the point that people who are probably middle class show up dressed like hobos in frayed cut offs and flip flops), but…
If I wanted to see a rock concert, a really kickin’ stage show or some other gee nab it form of showmanship, I’d go to a theater, or rock show, or stay at home and watch movies on cable if I want great entertainment.
If you’re a church, you might be able to lure people in at first with the big, fancy shows, but you’re not going to keep them.
numo wrote:
Numo I think you are overreacting. I don’t find Hillsong scary..or cult like. While I may not be the biggest fan of the franchise (I do like their music though…) I’m not as worried about Hillsong as I am SGM, Acts 29, or 9 Marks. That doesn’t mean I endorse Hillsong’s theology, but many AOG churches you can walk away from easier. There is no membership covenant, no “marrying” the congregation, no mnadated tithing, no Mark Devers or Mark Driscolls, etc…
On SGM Survivors they have been discussing a new SGM Plant in Frederick. Its consisting of members who left CLC becuase they are under Mahaney’s influence. The launch even includes his former personal secretary.
Given the two…Frederick SGM Church plant or Hillsong LA plant…Hillsong is an easier pill to swallow.
Or should I say a suppoistory to take! 😛
@ Daisy:
Did you see Tanya Levin in the video I embedded? She talks about growing up in what eventually became Hillsong. Kudos to her for going against the money machine that is masquerading as a church.
Eagle wrote:
I have never bought any Hillsong music, and I avoid using their music for EChurch, although I have always liked Shout to the Lord.
I think when we consider and discuss the Hillsong LA plant there is something we are missing. Just in doing analysis we are missing the bigger picture of how this all fits together.
How does Hillsong fit in with SGM, Acts 29, Sojourn Network, etc…
I think modern Christianity needs to acknowledge that one feeds and drives the other. The seeker sensitive movement feeds the Hyper-Cal movement. And vice versa…people leave the Hyper-Cal movement exhausted and find “refuge” in the seeker sensitive. I see it as a cycle.
@ numo:
I’m not a Hillsong expert, but just based on some episodes I’ve caught on TV of their church services, Houston (the preacher at Hillsong) seems (in addition to being Joel Osteen-ish) to be into being positive and perky.
Not that being positive is bad in and of itself, but I’ve read from people on blogs who go to such churches say they felt suffocated and had to leave. (This also includes Osteen’s church in Texas.)
Some perky, positive churches (or people) are hard to be around because they make no room for anyone who is going through a trial, dealing with a death, depression, or anything else.
The Word of Faith, prosperity guys are especially bad about this. If you try to talk to one about some heartache or physical sickness or financial hardship you are going through, they’ll tell you stuff like you’re bringing it on yourself by speaking it into your life or whatever.
The Hillsong Church strikes me as being that way, there’s no room for people that go there to be sad or have calamities in life.
I guess the preacher there (and at similar churches) thinks your life is supposed to be easy and happy constantly.
@ Eagle:
Did you google that lady’s name, Tanya Levin, I mentioned above? She is a former Hillsong member.
Tanya Levin interview Transcript
TANYA LEVIN: He [preacher Houston of Hillsong] proceeded to talk about his father having, you know, having to have confronted his father over a serious, what he called a “serious moral failure”.
These were allegations of sexual offences against teenage boys, which was never actually named on the day. So this was a “serious moral failure”.
He’d had to confront his father about it, his father had confessed, the National Executive had then taken away his credentials, investigated, and taken away Houston Senior’s credentials. …
ANDREW DENTON: There was no reference to the people that had been abused or whose lives may have been damaged.
TANYA LEVIN: Absolutely no reference to the victims. There was no stance taken on child sexual assault, or child abuse of any form or care for children, ah there was no standing up and saying “Look, we will not tolerate this in our congregation”. …
——————-
Levin also mentions in that interview that, in her view, the financial situation at Hillsong is not very “transparent” or not enough.
She says that Houston’s wife teaches women at that church that their highest role they can reach is being a wife.
Quoting Levin:
As a never married, childless woman in her forties (who wanted marriage), I can say that one reason (of a billion) I am being driven away from Christianity is the non-stop emphasis, by Christians, on parenthood/marriage, the attitude that you are a nobody unless you’re married with a child, that God designed women only for marriage and being mothers.
Levin goes on to say in that interview that your experience at Hillsong is great until you begin to “resist,” like challenging the leaders, asking questions, etc. She says members who disagree are ostracised by the other church members.
@ Daisy:
“…and preachers in flip flops and goatees.”
+++++++++++++++
to me it’s become like a uniform. conforming to nonconformity.
“no more Sunday-best suits, ties, and hair neatly-parted-down-the-side! no one’s gonna tell me what to wear anymore!………..hmmmm, jeans…that’s kind of tight-ish Tshirt he’s got on, looks almost like silk,…AH, it’s converse today — my feet don’t have to freeze in flip flops after all!….looks like he’s got a tattoo on the left bicep, some kind of celtic design…Got it!”
“I JUST GOTTA BE MEEEeee CUZ JESUS LOVES ME JUST AS MEEEEeeee!!!!”
(so i’m going to look, talk, & act just like you.)
@ elastigirl:
ugh, it’s jr. high, isn’t it.
Off-topic:
Some of you might like to comment on the TGC article: http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2014/01/07/preventing-sexual-abuse-in-the-church/?comments=&repeat=w3tc
Remember– NOT TO MENTION TGC’s role, or that of their BFF, CJM, or your comment will be relegated to the dustbin of history….. 🙁
@ Daisy:
…………
It’s like worshipping in a bubble world. Acknowledge no sorrow, no struggles, nothing ugly. Makes for good science fiction.
Crank up the worship show for an hour of just praisin’ Jesus loudly, what could be wrong with this sister?
Eagle wrote:
………………….
And human nature to follow the leader…..don ‘t be different, be liked, etc.
Muff Potter wrote:
…………………..
Strikes a chord with me too. 🙂
@ Deb:
I watched it just now. That a church is making so much money, that they are making a profit off hurting people and using the name of Jesus to do it all, is awful.
I like the other preacher at the end, Bill Cruise (Cruz – spelling)? He’s using his church’s funds to feed the sick and homeless in his area of town.
@ Eagle:
acquiring their music or using it in any religious or commercial place results in them receiving royalty money. So you become a financial supporter (akin to athletic supporter, but smellier!)
Like those online business niches that could have supported two or three Dot-Coms, but over a hundred Dot-Com Startups crowded into the niche and all killed each other? Except with a trail of “Take Your God And Shove It!” burnouts?
elastigirl wrote:
Yep.
Like:
South Park: conformity
“If you want to be one of the non conformists all you have to do is dress just like us and listen to the same music we do”
@ An Attorney:
Some years back I discovered that a Baptist church I was singing in was using some music that had an SGM copyright. That meant that our CBF church was sending $ (through a roundabout channel) to Mahaney, et al.
Before you buy or use money in a service, play it, or whatever, please check the copyright. The copyright holder is getting a small amount of money every time!
Be sure you are not supporting some false ministry.
@ An Attorney: Great tip!
Dave A A wrote:
Thanks for bringing that to our attention. Here's a related post from 7 months ago that didn't get many comments. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/06/04/caring-for-victims-of-sexual-abuse/
@ Eagle: Or maybe I’ve seen/read commentary from Australia?
Eagle wrote:
This whole thing made me laugh so much…what is their weapon of choice on drive-bys? The latest songs yelled out of the windows of the church minibus as it screeches past one of the Elder’s houses? Copies of the latest book thrown at the Youth Group playing volleyball in someone’s garden? Prophecies hurled willy-nilly from souped up SUVs? It could be SO marvellous.
And as for Christian music…closest I get is probably Johnny Cash…just can’t deal with the over-production of most of it, makes it sound a bit too glossy for me.
Eagle wrote:
That’s a great question Eagle, and one I’ve pondered before. I used to be drawn to Jesus Culture music, but when I saw what went on at their concerts and church, I felt creepy. I just picture “fire tunnels” and people convulsing everywhere when I hear their music now, and I can’t seem to separate the song itself from the culture that is creating it. But, can a song stand alone? I do think so. If I had never associated a song like “Your Love Never Fails” with the Bethel Church extremism, I would still be able to worship while singing it.
I love the song “Satisfied in You” that a Mars Hill band wrote and perform. It is basically just a psalm put to music, and it always moves my heart to gratitude. But, if my mind sees Driscoll in a Mickey Mouse t-shirt while I’m trying to sing, I’m all done!
Now, I must say that I don’t have any evidence that the songwriters of Hillsong United, or even Mars Hill practice the same counterfeits as Brian Houston or Mark Driscoll. For that reason, I don’t feel any strike against my own conscience listening to their music, or singing it in a worship gathering. The Jesus Culture movement hits a bit too personal for me, and my own journey, so maybe that is why my heart can’t unite with it.
Eagle, this is very much one of those personal convictions that no one can guide you about. Honestly, I have had great awareness of the presence of God working in my heart while singing some “SECULAR” songs. The first time I heard David Gray sing “Shine” live, I felt like I was just as much at “church”! Music is from God, and like anything, can be corrupted by sin. But, also like anything, music can still reflect characteristics of the Creator’s image even when performed by humans marred by sin. Jon Foreman of Switchfoot recently wrote a fascinating article about “Christian” music:
http://ctkblog.com/2013/12/05/why-switchfoot-wont-sing-christian-songs/
Hope this kind of helps guide your own reflection brother. Shalom!
@ Daisy: The other thing to keep in mind is that a church can be *really* messed up, but you won’t find any evidence of what’s wrong in their printed material or on their websites.
This has been true for every single evangelical/charismatic church I have ever been part of, from the early 70s-2002. Manipulation of members, pressure, weird doctrines that are struck from the public record of sermons (recording turned off, speaker’s tie thrown over the lapel mike), even secret/closed meetings with representatives of the weird doctrines. (As in something That Church did in 2003, with someone from Uganda who was a representative of the New Apostolic Reformation and other weird/outrightly aberrant groups.)
Yet you can look at the surfaces – at what these places present – and see only bland, smiling conformity.
@ Eagle: this was intended as a partial reply to you…
@ Eagle:
and here’s the link – http://thewartburgwatch.com/2014/01/06/hillsong-la-franchise-coming-soon/#comment-126797
@ Erik: I did some quick Googling and found that a lot of New Apostolic Reformation people are involved with Jesus Culture, too.
Why am I not one bit surprised?
@ Beakerj:
Hee Hee. Here is how it usually works. The other megas will talk from stage about how happy they are for this new mega and how needed it is as their are so many “unchurched” out there. Then they will double up their efforts to recruit more people with lots of flashy preformances, programs, events, etc.
@ Erik: You know… Bach’s Sonatas and Partitas for Solo Violin have affected me far more profoundly – per them creating a great sense of awe, and a desire to worship God – than any of the bland, CCM-ish/Vineyard/Hillsong/etc. music *ever* has.
Eagle wrote:
YES! Exactly. It cycles sort of like fashion.
@ elastigirl: Yes, perpetuated throughout adulthood. A very real kind of hell on earth (not j/k, really).
Daisy wrote:
Sounds all too familiar to me…
numo wrote:
“They have never left High School. They will never leave High School. And they will NEVER let any of the rest of us leave High School.”
— some political blog around 2003, referring to Hillary Clinton fanboys
Reading and re-reading today’s post, it appears Wartburg is critical of a church that doesn’t yet EXIST. I find that interesting to say the least.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
So, true. I retired to get out of high school, and the church I was attending reminded me of my former job so much I left to find another church…trouble is, I can’t find a church that isn’t that way….I got up and left during a sermon when the preacher said, ” you know, I played quarterback in high school, then proceeded to tell stories of his past glory.” What that has to do with Jesus is beyond me??
numo wrote:
Yes! Awe and wonder are the fundamentals for my walk with Christ.
K.D. wrote:
I spent four years of my life (1969-1973) in high school. Ever since (40 years) I’ve been trying to forget those four years ever happened. That’s how bad it was for me. All I can figure is these guys who are so keen on reliving high school were the Alpha Males and Females of their high school (I was one of the Omegas) and have never been so high in social status since.
You had the Married With Children guy as a preacher? For real?
“I was a Football Star in High School. Once I scored Three Touchdowns in one game.”
— the Married with Children guy, fortysomething loser
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Sadly, you can’t make this stuff up….
numo wrote:
Hmm… more like saying “deepest Glasgow”. The wider Glasgow conurbation has a population of around 2.5 megapeople, similar to Brooklyn, and also has its share of posh areas. But “deepest Glasgow” would probably suggest Townhead, Ruchill or Drumchapel to most Scots (for information: they’re quite rough). I toyed with the idea of “darkest Brooklyn”, a play on “darkest Peru” whence Paddington Bear hails, but I couldn’t shake the feeling that “dark” could be variously misconstrued.
numo wrote:
Me too numo. But the truth of reality? We are a very small market who would want to hear the Partitas played on say a 1718 Strad as part of a worship service. Most would prefer the other stuff you cited. Kinda sorta like preferring a Happy Meal at McD’s rather than a fine eatery with fantastic ambiance and fine cuisine.
@ Nick Bulbeck: you were wise to avoid that, Nick.
fwiw, every one of NY’s boroughs has more than a few neighborhoods that are impoverished.
@ Erik: how so? (Serious question; not sure I fully understand what you mean.)
@Erik – thanks for the comments about music. That’s a good reminder. Also, the necessity of feeling awe in our relationship with God. That’s something I rarely feel. I do remember having a moment of awe recently in a deep conversation with some long-term friends, only one of which is a believer.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Add to that turf war (1) Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa and (2) Greg Laurie’s Harvest Chapel and (3) RealityLA.
The City of Angels (and environs) is neck-deep in mega-churches.
Eagle wrote:
Sure, they have toe-tapping worship music. It’s the bubblegum music my teenagers love. But I’m not going to attend a church that has the kind of message I heard in the 4-minute video (above, in the post).
In case the Amazon page for Brian Houston’s book “You Need More Money” disappears just as the video did:
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s302/sh/1784b306-dcb3-449d-9262-d720cae385ff/608c7fe152874bd02e412865f6ee2299
@ numo:
Here’s where my mind was at when I wrote that about “awe and wonder being the fundamental of my walk”:
Having been exposed to several different sectors of fundamentalist Christianity, I’ve gotten stuck at times adhering to certainty. But, as I’ve grown both in life experience and in my relationship with Jesus, I’ve been humbled repeatedly. I just keep getting my “certainty” tossed aside by either doubts or simply an unseen perspective. What it is all leading me to is a strong sense of comparison between my finite mind and infinite God. My first response to God on a daily basis is embracing the mystery. He has, and very presently is, revealing Himself to me. But, even at my best, I cannot be certain I understand God. I know I love Him because He first loved me. And I am in awe of his faithful love. I am constantly wondering how I can experience more of God, because I cannot find anything greater to pursue, even though I don’t fully know why. So, my version of “fundamentalism” is quite the opposite of dogmatic statements of faith. Instead, I’m just trying to hold on the very few moments of clarity given to me in grace.
Does that help a bit? Or, did I ramble into murkier ponds? 🙂
Their music isn’t my cup of tea — I’m in with the Bach partita crowd…. But years ago (25+), my dearest friend, a very hurting, lost Christian Scientist became a Christian, rather amazingly, through the ministry of the church that became Hillsong. She was loved into the faith in a profound way, and made part of a community that was nurturing and helpful. She remains a dedicated believer to this day. It is so sad that churches can begin so well, with the best of intentions, and somehow become seduced by the power that success brings, and forget why they began their ministry in the first place — I don’t know that I am a great judge of this, but I can’t imagine that most people go into ministry imagining that they will become millionaires — probably many respond to a genuine call and then get corrupted…
@ Janey: Thanks! Wish I could find the video.
Former CLC’er wrote:
That sounds like something I would surely cling to. I think we all underestimate how meaningful those human connections are, especially when we find all sorts of creative ways to make “us” and “them”. Peace!
I actually had a Hillsong CD in my CD player and listened to it on the way home from work. Here’s the thing…I listen to a lot of classical as well, especially Mozart, Brahms, Handal (I wish there was a way to program the Surprise Symphony to be my alarm clock in the morning!) Beethovem, Mahler, and various styles such as Baroque, etc… I actually go to bed at night listening to classical, because I love it.
I also listen to a lot of soundtracks, whether it be movie (Hans Zimmer rocks) or Broadway. But I agree with the poster above that I believe you can separate the two. What do you do if you stop listening to newer worship music? Heck even Handal’s Messiah was new at one point in its history. But if you eliminate Hillsong, Jesus Culture, Vineyard, etc… what does that leave? Not a hell of a lot of options. Sometimes I think some of this is cultural and preferences, though the way the worship wars have been handled have not been good either.
@ Deb and Janey:
I finally found the 'You Need More Money' video with Brian Houston and am adding it to the post in an update.
Did you guys see this comment at SGM Survivors?
Letty
January 7th, 2014 at 6:33 pm
I can’t speak to all of the issues swirling around the SGM organization. My contact with them has been through my son, who joined them in college, about 8 years ago. My family attended a few SGM services when we visited him out of respect for him; we were very uncomfortable with what appeared to be SGM manipulation but he did not recognize it. Over a period of years I have watched him slowly break his ties with his family. We don’t know what is going on since he will not talk, and seems stressed and sad.
@ Erik: makes sense to me, Erik! I think faith hinges on the acceptance of mystery and paradox, really.
@ numo: should be “to me,” not “time.”
@ numo: Fixed it. 🙂
@ Deb: thanks so much!
Anyone wanna see a promotional video for a previous Hillsong conference:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGfpUsfz0kc
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/11/02/ed-young-jr-%E2%80%A6-%E2%80%9Ca-whole-nutha-level%E2%80%9D/
Eagle wrote:
Hi Eagle,
Chris seems to be a straight shooting, equal opportunity type of truth seeker. I first found him from his riposte of Driscoll at this link. Great song BTW which I put on my blog.
http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2012/07/another-ones-off-the-bus.html
I am not that familiar with his stuff and don’t have time to research it right now, but I seem to recall he has done some things confronting Mahaney.
Daisy wrote:
I can’t tell you how much I agree with this. You can’t be real. You can’t “confess.” Occasionally the college-aged group will lead worship at the church I attend hit-and-miss. One Sunday the pastor shared how the young worship leader told him a story that moved him, because he wished all of us could live like the young college students are living their Christian lives. He then asked the young man to share the story with the whole congregation. In a nutshell, the young man shared how that at a college group meeting, they all started confessing to one another their sins and struggles. I was thinking, “Why the heck would I confess to other people? That’s a ton of ammo they can use to hurt me.” I sat there feeling amazed that the pastor would wish that all of us in the congregation would be living this way. The very few times I have opened up and “been real” to people in the church, I have not received the understanding and encouragement that is promised. I have been accused, misunderstood, and judged. And frankly, I have reacted by putting up walls. I have been in more than one church and many Christians I’ve seen are the same. They talk a good talk but unfortunately when it comes down to it, they will not approve of you. I’ve come to the point where I live my life and if they have a problem with it (and it will come back around to me), then they can think me a heathen if they’d like. I can’t live for them anymore.
@ TW:
Concerning the SGM scandal, the only time I know of that Rosebrough mentioned it on his show was in a segment defending Al Mohler against criticisms of Mohler’s promotion and defense of Mahaney. Rosebrough entitled the segment “Al Mohler is not Joe Paterno”: http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2012/10/holy-moses.html
Rosebrough wasn’t defending Mahaney or SGM, but needless to say, I was disappointed with his Mohler defense.
Rosebrough also still sometimes airs “good” sermons from Al Mohler and Russell Moore on his show, even after I sent him this: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/11/07/phillip-gunn-sbts-al-mohler-legal-rightmoral-right/
Rosebrough says he reads all his e-mails and has even responded to some of mine on unrelated subjects, so I know he has seen the above.
@ Muff Potter:
It should be duly noted that music likes and dislikes are purely subjective and not at all a one-size-fitz-all type of thing. What floats one person’s boat shipwrecks another person’s boat and vice versa.
Nicholas wrote:
Thanks for this information Nicholas. I was not aware of his stance on Mahaney. I was hopeful that Chris Rosebrough, if familiar with the facts of the Mahaney scandal, would speak in favor of the victims. Sadly I guess this is not the case. Like I say, I don’t know him that well, but maybe he can be convinced to change his mind. He does not appear to be afraid to confront the celebs if he feels it is warranted.
Deb wrote:
I saw a comment that this is a parody, but it sure looks serious to me… Classic prosperity gospel. Please tell me I’m wrong! Somebody?
Ok, I scrolled down about 2/3 of the way through this thread, reading so many great comments, because I have to share my experience with AOG. When I first came to faith in college, I was baptized in a very liberal, mainline denom, because that was what I had been exposed to for 4 years prior. That’s not to say that the Holy Spirit isn’t present and active in liberal mainlines, but in my life, almost immediately, I felt a nudge from God, telling me to find a church where they believed the Bible. I stumbled into an AOG, and grew in my knowledge of the Bible and my mind, heart and spirit were opened to some important truths, although some of it was practiced in error, at least according to Paul. A few years later, I left AOG, realizing that all of the legalism and facade of righteousness weren’t at all like the Jesus who had found me. I wanted to walk in faith of grace.
Fast forwarding 30+ years, I absolutely would not recognize many AOG congregations as such. Yes, the facade of righteousness is still there, but take for example, David Yongi Cho’s church in Seoul, S. Korea. It’s technically AOG, the largest church in the world, at least as of 5 years or so ago, but shamanism and other influences, including the prosperity gospel, are all included in the hodge-podge of what is passing for AOG. I think AOG is turning a blind eye because of the huge successes in numbers they have seen. Reminds me of the RBDs turning a blind eye to SGM coverups of child abuse, because of who was shmoozed and the Reformed claims.
TW wrote:
I’d have to listen to it again, but I think he only gave a stance on Mohler and not on Mahaney. That said, I also which that he would speak out more against child abuse in the church and the Christian/religious context. The only time I know of that he has done so has been when he played and commented part of the ABC 20/20 documentary about the IFB on one episode of his show: http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2011/04/weird-by-craig-groeschel-.html
Beyond his defense of Mohler, Rosebrough has been essentially silent on his show and blog concerning the SGM scandal. But if he has mentioned it on any other medium, I’m not aware.
Did some research before bed…. Here is a list of where Hillsong has locations.
1. Australia of course…
2. London
3. Kiev, Ukraine
4. Surrey, SE UK
5. Paris
6. Moscow
7. South Africa
8. Stockholm, Sweden
9. Lyon, France
10. New York
11. Konstanz, Germany
12. Dusseldorf, Germany
13. Amsterdam
14. Barcelona, Spain
15. Copenhagen
So the only continents they do not have a presence on is South and Central America
and the Middle East (But I don’t think that counts as a continent!)
While I like Hillsong music the good thing about a post like this is that it does give deserved criticism toward Hillsong. It would be bad, and personally I think you guys would lose credibility if you discussed Acts 29 and Sovereign Grace while ignoring these other problems. I have been vocal in the past about prosperity theology in the other wing of Christianity that said by writing about it Deebs you can’t say that you have an agenda or bias. And for the sake of credibility that is important.
Night….
Eagle wrote:
From that list, it looks like they have one or two “franchises” in each country.
Nicholas are you from Wisconsin?
@ Eagle:
Nope. I’m from Baltimore County in Maryland.
Found this some time ago and re-read it today. I think it’s a timely message for all Christians–a wise message to start the new year.
—————–
Relationships and Religious Agendas
by Paul Proctor
Free-lance writer
Have you ever tried to reason with a religious agenda? It’s hard to do, isn’t it? You can quote God’s Word until you’re blue in the face, but those who have fully invested themselves into it will not be easily swayed even when it doesn’t square with scripture.
Often, what comes into play is a mystical mindset and performance-based pride involving a “passion” or “vision.” Persuaded with sentimental stories, tender tears, and a charming demeanor, a misguided group can, over time, become spiritually deaf, dumb, and blind to anyone and anything outside that vision, including God’s Word – following along with a misplaced faith in someone’s persona, position, or personal experience.
This happens in the Church today because Christians have largely relegated all things scriptural over to leaders for interpretation having made ministers into magistrates and pastors into priests – relying on professionals to perceive God’s Will for their lives rather than prayerfully reading and studying His Word for themselves like the Bereans of Acts 17 who “received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”
Having now put so great an emphasis on our relationships with one another and the results we covet, no longer do we turn to the Bible for answers to the issues of life, instead, allowing the counsel of the compromised to compel us along with their practical advise and benevolent ventures, assuming they are anointed and appointed by God to do so. It is a sweet seduction with eternal consequences and a spiritual short cut for the shortsighted and undisciplined.
Of course, we’re all in need of good relationships and good counsel; but when we rely on “smooth words” instead of God’s Word to direct us, we set ourselves up for deception, disobedience, and disaster. And, when we eventually fall and fail, how quickly we offload the blame onto those who misled us rather than taking responsibility for our own neglect – cleaning up the embarrassing mess left behind only to search yet again for another to lead in like manner – never repenting but always repeating the same ecclesiastical error over and over. This is what happens when we think and act relationally and experientially rather than biblically.
God gave us His Word for a reason, not as an option or a last resort. He does not yield to cultures and trends, as do we in the Church today. Nor does He need to try this or that to see what works and experiment with the things of this world to bring about His eternal ends. He who called creation into being with His Word need not alter it to accommodate the flesh and bring rebellion into repentance and faith.
It is only men who change, adjust, and experiment – leaning on their own understanding to try and help the One who needs no help – all the while bringing glory to self.
As it was in the Garden of Eden, so it is today; we continue to set aside the Word of God in the interest of Results and Relationships, forgetting that forsaking our way of doing things for His and learning obedience by faith was the point all along.
“Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.” – Proverbs 3:5
@ Eagle:
I haven’t been over at survivors for a while, but that’s how things were heading with my daughter and CLC. Thanks to these blogs and people like you on them she didn’t get stuck there.
Nicholas wrote:
Sickening.
>puke<
PP wrote:
Paul stated to the Sanhedrin: I stand on trial here for my hope in the resurrection of the dead. This was a recurring theme in the New Testament church; their hope was not based on doing well here, but on storing up treasure in heaven. To them, the poor part of town was the plum job, not because there was money to be made but because there wasn’t. That made it the best investment for the age to come.
That motivation has never died out, of course, but I mention the NT generation of Christians because they’re the ones who physically wrote the very Biblescriptures to which the modern church-planter appeals for his authority.
There have always been those who saw godliness as a means of financial gain. They don’t need any real hope in the resurrection of the dead because they haven’t invested as much in it as those who work in obscurity under difficult conditions.
I haven’t attended Hillsong myself, but have been surprised by those who are attracted to them, and not the predictable types, ie young, surfer chic types etc. Myself, I’m too daggy to attend Hillsong and I don’t bleach my teeth.
I’ve read Levin’s book, and some critiques. It would be better if Hillsong had responded against some of the claims. It needs to be read in that light.
There’s Hillsong the church, and Hillsong the music brand. My beef with the music is that with over 2,000 years of Christianity and a longer history of sacred music, it seems that a huge number of churches can only pull out repetitious Hillsong each week (I really wanted to swear and put caps in there).
Here’s some HUG style responses I thought up:
Hillsong Prosperity Doctrine, the Secret for believers.
Hillsong: when Landmark meets Christianity
Apols I can’t pick up on everyones responses as it’s difficult on the ‘phone, but RB resonated, among others about the AoG background.
They have featured on 60 minutes here several times, with some investigative work of their charitable arm (tax free), especially their drug/alcohol?counselling treatment I think it may have been. Also not sure if they are involved with the Gloria Jeans coffee franchise?
Last comment, part of me thinks it ironic how they are exporting an import. They’ll be selling ice to the Eskimos. I believe it now fetches a good price. Anyhow, Sovereign Grace is setting up here, and you get Hillsong. Do you reckon that’s a fair trade? Hmmm…
I’m awaiting a Hillsong Defender to pop up here soon. I would expect a pleasant exchange and not the bite and scratch peacock puffery I’ve seen from some doctrinalists…
@ Patti:
So grateful that Eagle and others were a big help. Estrangement within families is so difficult.
One man writes a book entitled “You Need More Money”, and his son is setting up a franchise church in the Golden State. Coincidence? I think not. 😉
I thought it ironic that, in the Current Affair report, Hillsong was mentioned in the same breath with Scientology. It reminded me of charities commission proposed by Senator Nick Xenophon there in Australia. I hope it comes together, and helps to keep all religious groups (including Hillsong) much more honest than they seem to be.
@ Patti:
How is your daughter today? How did she get out of CLC? I would love to hear that story! Grateful things turned out well.
Has anyone mentioned Hillsong’s disastrous support of Mercy Ministries, which was a major scandal in Australia? The ministry was literally supporting exorcising anorexics and bulimics, as well as other mentally ill people, of their demons, and was heavily backed by Hillsong. Australia was so outraged they ended up kicking MM out of the country and Hillsong had to run for cover.
@ Eagle:
She didn’t really get into CLC but could have. She had a very serious relationship with a guy who was raised there in the church. She met him in college. At first she was excited to finally meet a guy with whom she thought had the same values as her. It was quite an ordeal. It got to a point where he was telling her that she shouldn’t talk to me about the church stuff anymore. He said we were sinfully questioning when I argued with him over Wayne Gruem and Al Mohler and Mahaney. He pulled out the water works on her when he realized I was blogging about him even though I never said names or the SGM church he went to. she texted me telling me to stop blogging because he was so hurt. He was just 23 at the time but would argue with me like I was beneath him. He shows outwardly great respect for his mother, but I do believe that no matter how much SGM claims to ‘put women in a pedestal’ they really do believe that all males are superior to all women. I have never been the kind of mom that has to talk to her kids every day, but when my daughter was communicating less and less it was getting very scary. Some commenters on survivors at the time said I should stop blogging that it wasn’t worth losing my daughter over. As you can imagine I was turmoil. Survivors was wonderful to me through all of that.
@ Eagle:
About how my daughter is today? Well, she’s in another relationship. I am afraid that I have role modeled for too many years of the religious ‘doormatting’ that somehow we Christians have called godly behavior. This one is seeming to show controlling behavior now too, but just as her last boyfriend apologizes and ‘realizes’ that he was the one in the wrong, she is in love and believes in forgiveness and another chance. As far as it being a gender thing I do blame us women for teaching Christian men how to treat us. Of course it is a little more difficult for those of us who were raised fundies to break the mold for ourselves and our kids. When the SGM saga was going on with my daughter it made me start to wonder if SGM is right and I really was bad parenting by not only pushing her to attend college but then allowing her to go all the way to the East Coast for school.
__
“Hillsong LA: I Came, I Saw, I Worshiped Jesus?”
hmmm…
With their contemporary Christian worship music, HilSong will appeal to many of the under thirty age group in L.A.
gee.
Contemporary Christian music is certainly important to those under thirty.
Yep.
Ancient hymns and boring sermons, are a thing of the past, with this group.
opt out = left out
possibly.
Welcome to the brave new church world?
hmmm…
could b.
Skreeeeetch!
(bump)
Jesus hung wit da folks dat needed a doctor.
(imagine dat)
What bout U?
What?
“Hear the sound of the sirens ringing,
See the world of a life that’s changing…” ~Third Day **
Will it hit you like a b___?
Sopy
__
**Third Day – “Hit Me Like A ….”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjuJqUDYikI
Bonus: Third Day – “I Need A Miracle…”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66xp8vNsx4E
;~)
—
@ Sopwith: great observations, Sopy!
Dig a little deeper…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcswYwQczPc
There seems to be more to the Hillsong charade than meets the eye …
@ gus: seeing him fake cancer and the need for oxygen makes me *very* angry. It’s a slap in the face to everyone who’s actually been there.
Patti wrote:
Now that says “MANIPULATION”.
But isn’t “turning on the water works” and being “so hurt” a WOMAN(TM)’s way of manipulating? Being a Real Man(TM), shouldn’t he have been pulling rank and threatening you instead?
John Weaver wrote:
As in “DEMONS! DEMONS! DEEEEEEMONS! SHEEKA BOOM BAH! BAM!”?
And of course anyone who differed or objected with MM had to be DEEEEEMON-controlled. That’s the usual shtick.
Bruce Gerencser wrote:
I was JUST thinking about this same thing. I am wondering if it is a new theological movement, or a franchise movement, or? I wasn’t planning to read the comments yet (need to get some things done this morning), but when I saw your comment, I knew that my line of thought wasn’t wrong when I read this.
Franchise is a franchise…whether it be a mega church doing plants in a city, Hillsong, Sojurn Network, etc…
Hey, why don’t we all plant a church… all you need is the Church Ninja for just 99 dollars a month. This is for real! I think my pastor is getting sucked into this stuff now, he just posted this on FB. Not sure why.
http://churchninja.com/church-planting-ninja/
@ John Weaver:
I found this:
They sought help, but got exorcism and the Bible
It’s from an Aussie paper and mentions Hillsong Church.
(Sorry if that link has already been posted to the thread. I’ve not yet read all the way down the page.)
@ Patti:
My mother was codependent. She believed that being a good Christian woman meant being a doormat to everyone, always giving, putting herself last, not being assertive, and that the man is the head of the household/ in the relationship. She raised me to be that way too.
The thing is, I knew there was something wrong with that but couldn’t put my finger on it until my adulthood.
I also suspected it wasn’t quite biblical way to deal with people and live life, despite being told by preachers and my mother it was.
There are examples in the Bible of Jesus Christ, Paul, and others not being so nice all the time and not allowing themselves to be used.
I noticed that as a kid. I couldn’t understand why it was okay for Jesus, Paul, etc, to be assertive, but as a Christian female, I was expected to be nice all the time to everyone no matter what.
I finally got out of those mindsets after reading books about codependency, some by Christian authors, some by Non Christians.
I don’t know if you and/or your daughter would find them helpful. Some of them are:
Boundaries by Henry Cloud and Dr. John Townsend
No More Christian Nice Girl by Paul Coughler and Jennifer Degler
The Nice Girl Syndrome by Beverly Engel
I read a few other books that were very helpful.
Any book that talks about how to overcome codependency, or people pleasing, or the fear of standing up to people and saying no, will probably be good.
@ Patti:
That “Church Ninja” program and site is strange.
No where on their list do I see where they mention attracting the unmarried and childless to new church plants.
On their bulleted list is this:
“How to Create a Children’s Ministry That Attracts Families”
No mention of the childless and singles on their page that I see, despite this:
US Census
Unmarried and Single Americans
102 million
Number of unmarried people in America 18 and older in 2011. This group comprised 44.1 percent of all U.S. residents 18 and older.
From ChildStats.Gov:
Family Structure and Children’s Living Arrangements
————-
Yes, churches should ignore 102 million adults and continue to assume all married couples have small children living at home. 🙄
Unless this generic appeal was meant to include singles and the childless:
“Proven offline outreach strategies that flood your church with guests”
Daisy wrote:
You need families with indoctrinatable small kids for Church Growth through Bedroom Evangelism. And the more of them you breed, the more your church grows.
It’s the Church Growth version of Quiverfull/Outbreed those Heathens.
Daisy wrote:
This Mercy Ministries sounds like another poster child for Carl Sagan’s The Demon-Haunted World. Note that in their ads cited, patient testimonials use the word “Saved” instead of “treated” or “cured”. And it actually is “All these disorders are caused by DEMON Possession!!!!!” Where have we seen this before?
numo wrote:
Faked cancer to hide a serious porn problem. Now I HAVE heard everything.
Just how do you do that?
I mean, how are those two connected? How does faking one hide the other?
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
His church people even set up a Facebook donation / sympathy page when they thought he had cancer.
Preacher who faked cancer will not face legal charges
Also:
@ Daisy: this is one of the things i was alluding to upthread, in a reply to Eagle re. reading news/commentary from Australia…
The whole “ninja this” and “ninja that” among “relevant” church-growth types is so lame…
http://profrah.wordpress.com/2013/01/24/easter-ninja/
http://www.alittleleaven.com/2012/12/prayer-ninja.html
numo wrote:
From what I read, though the cancer-faking preacher was involved with Hillsong, his little masquerade was on his own. Hillsong’s pastor claims he was fooled by the hoax and may very well have been. (Though with Celebrity Mega and Gigapastors there’s always an element of doubt these days; so many of them practice plausible deniability and/or CYA when a scandal breaks on their watch.)
@ Patti:
Entrepreneurs are salivating at the market potential among “church planters”. I won’t be surprised to see things like “Church Ninja” the next time I am watching Shark Tank. The formulas and cookie cutter clones these guys follow are just ridiculous. It is getting more and more obvious to see through the smoke and mirrors though, and for that I rejoice!
@Patti and Eagle – I was in CLC for 16 years, and the folks I hung out with didn’t discourage my interactions with my family, but quite the opposite. We had people in my family stay overnight and visit often, with no awkwardness between people in the church and nonbelievers. Now there were other people I would never allow around my family because of their weird personality traits and/or beliefs.
@Eagle – as far as the list of the locations of Hillsong churches, I noticed Copenhagen and Stockholm, which are two very unchurched places. Depending on how far afield Hillsong’s doctrines are, it may be better to have those churches than none.
@ Former CLC’er: I honestly don’t think so. Why do we need to export all the worst aspects of American evangelicalism?
@ numo:
Let’s not claim Hillsong as American evangelicalism 🙂 America has enough nonsense without taking on Australia’s woes!
@ Bridget: tell me it’s not American-style evangelicalism that was exported to Aus and is now coming back to haunt us…
Former CLC’er wrote:
“Unchurched” is one of those phrases common used by evangelicals that I wish were properly quantified and/or better defined.
@ Daisy:
Thanks Daisy, I know the book Boundaries. It changed a lot in my life. I will look up the others too.
@ Former CLC’er:
Did your interaction with your family include them asking lots of questions and pointing out areas of your church life that didn’t seem right?
I’ll read the comments and give more of my opinions/response as a Sydneysider in a minute, but first I thought I’d post this video parody of Hillsong. I’ve posted it before, but I’m sure everyone will enjoy it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QNulAWZC4s
Hester wrote:
Ha – beaten to it! Maybe I should have read a few comments before posting!
::headdesk:: As if we needed another one of these.
Does anyone know exactly where in “LA” Hillsong plans to open?
My impression of Hillsong is that it is very much a prosperity gospel style operation. It is aimed mainly at quite well off middle class families telling them that their success is a sign of God’s favour. There is a lot of money going into Hillsong and the Houston family do very nicely out of it. There have been a few minor scandals but their PR machine has kept the lid on them. There was some sort of fracas over the music side of things a couple of years ago and one of the main men ended up leaving. They are also quite right wing in their politics (no surprises there). Here in Sydney they are seen as an American style church so I suppose they are going back to their roots.
Haitch wrote:
Yep, Gloria Jeans is owned by Hillsong people, but I’m pretty sure it’s just long-term members, not the church itself.
For non-Aussies, Gloria Jeans is like Starbucks, but their coffee isn’t terrible.
Sorry, had to say that about Starbucks – it failed pretty spectacularly down here because everyone hated their coffee.
Okay, I don’t have personal experience Hillsong, but I’ll share what I’m aware of. Overall, there’s definitely a fair amount of prosperity gospel in the mix, and what I’ve seen of any preaching from them (haven’t attended a service personally, so this is secondhand assessment from clips and others’ comments) it seems to be motivational speaking with a Christian flavour. There are questions about their music machine – every album of theirs tops the charts – with suggestions the church buys their own album in bulk so they get some media exposure, but I don’t know if that’s true. I have to say I’m not much of a fan of their music, a lot of it is what I refer to as ‘Jesus is my boyfriend’ stuff.
Mercy Ministries was mentioned above, and that’s probably the biggest scandal Hillsong have had. It did a fair bit of damage to them (justifiably), especially because they were doing the same sort of things as part of an ex-gay program at Mercy. They’ve also received criticism for a program they had called Shine, which was a program they were allowed to run with high school girls. Shine’s a strange program, as it’s basically makeup and beauty tips dressed up in empowerment language with Jesus lite added. Here’s one article about it, but there’s lots more if you want to look into it further http://www.abc.net.au/news/2008-07-28/hillsongs-school-grooming-talks-help-girls/454908 On the fake cancer story, I don’t see any reason not to believe that Brian Houston was unaware it was a scam, so I can accept the churches’ argument that it was just Guglielmucci misleading the whole church, and not some scheme he and the Houstons came up with together. At the same time I don’t think the Houstons are particularly ethical with money themselves. As with all prosperity gospel preachers, they’re pretty rolling in it and completely unashamed of it.
They’re politically as well as religiously conservative, with some ties to politicians – although if you want to talk about religious groups with questionable links to politics in Australia, Opus Dei is the biggie, Exclusive Brethren another one. At the same time, they aren’t outspoken on political issues, unlike a few other Christian leaders *cough*George Pell*cough* and haven’t come anywhere near to saying things as offensive as Danny Nalliah, who’s Australia’s resident Pat Robertson, although fortunately with far fewer supporters and less media exposure.
Finally they’ve had a number of problems with neighbours and local communities around their churches. Their main church is in the north-western suburbs of Sydney, but they set up one just south of the CBD in a suburb with small streets and high population density, which resulted in lots of annoyed residents who were dealing with excessive traffic around their homes on weekends. Hillsong applied to build a $70m+ building on their site which was fought by residents, and the development proposal was eventually withdrawn. Although Hillsong had rallied their members to write lots of letters supporting their application, it was almost certainly going to be rejected anyway because of its size, height, and traffic congestion http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/hillsong-church-drops-78million-rosebery-building/story-e6freuy9-1111116801780.
Anyway, that’s what I know about Hillsong. In general, they’re seen more as weird than dangerous, the Houston’s personal ethics in terms of how much they pay themselves are questionable but seemingly (depressingly?) no worse than other megachurches, and they are politically and socially conservative. I don’t think they’re horrible, but I’d be cautious of them.
I haven’t read all the comments so I don’t know if anyone’s mentioned this yet, but the video that’s up after the Hillsong expose video is called ‘Hillsong Church Exposed’ and features a woman named Tanya Levin. She mentions a scandal involving Brian Houston’s father, the ex-lead pastor at Hillsong. She talks about how he allegedly behaved inappropriately with teenage boys, and how the church didn’t deal with it adequately, and that was one of the major reasons she became disillusioned with them. It’s about 7 minutes into the video.
Just wondered if anyone knows any more about that.
@ Sophie:
You will find the story here
http://donaldelley.wordpress.com/2012/09/13/frank-houston-part-1-new-zealand/
@ Anony:
I agree with everything you wrote. I’m sorry you’ve dealt with that, too.
I’ve found it safer to keep mum and not talk about my personal problems with folks, because once you do, a lot of them (and sadly, even lots of Christians) view that as their approval to start judging you, when all you were after was a sounding board and/or empathy.
If Christians want other people to be transparent and vulnerable, they need to learn to listen in silence as folks talk about their problems and withhold judgmental comments, or giving advice, or biblical- sounding platitutdes.
This seems to be more an issue with Christians than Non Christians.
Most Non Christians I’ve come across are interested in helping you or just giving empathy, but Christians are eager to jump in to give you biblical based advice or to tell you where you’re going wrong.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
From what I’ve been reading, a lot of kids raised in Christian homes or church environments are leaving churches (or the Christian faith) in droves these days, even homeschooled ones. You cannot count on Christians breeding like bunnies to repopulated God’s kingdom.
I think that is one reason Jesus never advocated for that approach, and Jesus told Christians to go forth and ‘spread the gospel to all creatures.’
Christianity is supposed to grow with believers sharing their faith with non believers, not by having lots of babies.
@ Patti:
I think the classic work on the topic is “Codependent No More” by Melody Beattie, but I’ve not read that one myself. I’ve seen a lot of other people say they found it helpful.
Some of these books are not by Christians, and you may find yourself disagreeing with some of their views (as I did), but I overall found their books very helpful.
I actually preferred the Non Christian works better. They cut to the chase and tell you how things really are. Christian authors are so concerned with being prim and proper, they tend to sugar coat things, or make life look too sugary nice in their books.. which isn’t to say you cannot learn anything from them, but I just preferred the books by the Non Chrisitans.
Oh, but please do avoid any books by Ed Welch (Christian author / counselor).
Welch wrote a book about how to get over a fear of people, but it was a victim-blaming book, and his solutions did not work..
Welch’s basic solutions boil down to fear God and/or keep God first in your life, and you won’t fear other people. I tried that approach for years, even before reading his book, and it did not work.
My problem was not that I kept God last, but that I put other people above me, I always put them first no matter what even if they were mean or abusive, as I was taught that other people are more important than me (not equal to).
Pam wrote:
American cartoon show “South Park” did an entire episode about Christian rock bands a few years ago, where the characters said all you have to do to make Christian rock is make a song about your girlfriend and replace all the “she’s,” “hers,” and “baby” with the name “Jesus.”
So the South Park guys make a Christian band called “Faith + 1”
Audio contains a few cuss words:
Faith + 1 Songs
@ Sophie:
Yep, I linked to that interview above somewhere.
Hillsong Exposed (Tanya Levin interview)
She says in that interview that some Christian guy (music guy at Hillsong?) told her that rock singer Bruce Springsteen is “a high priest of Satan.” Yeah, sure he is. 🙄
@ Daisy:
Here is the video I originally wanted to post but found it only just now:
South Park: How to write Christian songs
@ TW:
I like that video, but I am not blaming any pastor for not delving into homosexual bible teachings on any mass media outlet. The Apostle Paul avoided condemning Rome for Slavery, yet as soon as the early Christian church gained any clout, it banned slavery in Rome – took longer to get to the outer reaches of its empire. Paul never directly comes out and says slavery is wrong, but read the letter to Philemon about Onesimus (runaway slave), his wording around masters treating slaves as equals in Christ and his command that everyone submit to one another and it shows that he is subversively upending the social order of the day. I think the whole gay rights topic is too insanely charged (esp. in the US) to manage any media message on that, that wouldn’t get twisted into “homophobia” – being phobic to certain creepy crawlies out there, I can’t imagine someone having a ‘phobic’ reaction to another human that way, but I digress – and “Pastor is Anti-Gay”, etc. So, although the video is right on about these celeb pastors and their weak biblical knowledge, lack of qualifications, etc. I cut anyone slack for not wading into ‘the Bible and gay relationships’ issues. Carl Lantz’s answers to Couric’s questions were equally pathetic, but still, Apostle Paul avoided upsetting Roman authorities in his day (teaching slaves had ‘rights’ and ‘equality’ with everyone else) in order for his main message (Jesus) to be heard. Carl Lantz, however, side-steps ‘the gay issue’ not to promote Jesus, but to promote his heroes – Brian Houston and Joel Osteen.
So, overall, it was a great clip, but his choice of proof that Lantz doesn’t know his Bible isn’t very strong in my view, he would have done better if he picked on the view that “Jesus rarely preached on morality or social issues” I mean WTF??? That was mainly what Jesus preached about! His Kingdom is a complete social overhaul – women and men both priests (preisthood of believers), the least are exalted, poor are provided for, children are not to be banned from the Kingdom) Jesus wasn’t very strongly motivated to reach the non-Jews either, does that mean Jesus is only for ethnic Jews? So many better points could have been made from this interview than the hot-button homosexuality one.
Just my 2 cents anyways.
Val wrote:
Val, I had the same reaction. I actually appreciated that the stance is “love” and conversations should be on a personal basis. But, when he said that Jesus rarely preached on morality or social issues, I was dumbfounded. I immediately thought of how counter-cultural Jesus’s teachings about money were, and how Jesus got right to the very moral core of people’s love of money. Jesus spent a great deal of time preaching on that, but perhaps the pastors of Hillsong do not want people to know.
Erik wrote:
Thanks for pointing that out Erik, I was annoyed with the rest of his conversation, but I too liked the way he said his stance is “love” and condvos should be one – to – one. From personal internet/fb experience I agree with him on that. Once on a thread a few of us said some things that were taken the entirely wrong way and the whole thread devolved into being accused of being no better than Duck Dynasty strars and Nazis. I was annoyed because there is no way to just say something without a pile of meaning getting attached to it that wasn’t there. Here is how it went, Random internet comment on genetic stuff: ‘there is no proof there are genetic controls over human’s orientation – from a study on mice genes and orientations.’ It devolved into being called names, being insulted, etc. just because certain people (geneticists included) felt that not agree that it was genetic meant we were homophobic bigots??? Really? We never equated it to human rights or anything really, it just means there has been no gene found yet to control homosexuality in humans (doesn’t say it won’t be found, just that it hasn’t been found). Of course stating there is, as of yet, no clear genetic link to homosexuality = believing in 6-Day creationism, martial law (Nazi’s) and goodness knows what else. Never mind we were trying to point out to this guy that Canada had legalized gay marriages on human rights grounds, not scientific evidence and none of us (lots of Canadian christian on the thread) cared and weren’t trying to block gay marriage in the US yada, yada, yada… to no avail, we were all anti-gay bigots just for stating the truth – no “gay” gene found yet.
Yeah, facebook/internet/media interviews are a terrible way to state complicated matters (complicated by church’s awful reactions and attitudes towards gay people and huge polarization over the issue – I agree with Pope Francis, it isn’t worth Christian’s while focusing on homosexuality, it just devolves into a media brouhaha). I don’t think I could state my position on it in a quick, clear way. Especially seeing how both sides (the mainstream media certainly) jumps to arms over the mere mention of a slightly different viewpoint.
I still stand by what my year in South Asia taught me. Ancient Rome (and Greece and Jewish) world practiced arranged marriages. When couples marry for duty, not attraction, telling people to remain monogamous sounded as harsh to them as telling Christians today that remaining celibate is their calling. Yet, many gladly followed those teachings, flocking to monasteries and convents in droves until about the 7th C. where it petered off after a time.
Holding Hillsong’s leadership accountable for their teaching is helpful and necessary. Encouraging Christians to use their brains and the Bible to guide their decisions is always good. BUT, labeling churches such as Hillsong — who bring a distinctive name, approach, and identity to locations beyond their home — as “franchises” is defeatist, trouble-making, and unhelpful. Look up the definition of the word franchise and you will quickly see that it is a term that carries with it the idea of some special and exclusive privilege conferred by the government on an individual (e.g. the right to vote) or corporation (the right to engage in a particular business activity). That is NOT what churches are doing when they plant new churches, regardless of whether the new church is a megachurch or not. Think about the expansion of Christianity described in the book of Acts, set aside the hysteria provoked by labels such as “franchises” or “franchise wars,” and it is easy to conclude that the churches planted out of the church in Antioch were very much in line with what Hillsong is doing in LA and other cities outside of Australia. So what if a planted church looks, feels and sounds like its parent church? There is nothing bad about that. If Hillsong is teaching heresy, by all means we should be sounding the alarm. But there is no crime or apostasy in what Hillsong, or any other church for that matter, does when it reproduces itself in another location.
Brent wrote:
Tax exemptions are given to both churches and the pastor's housing allowances which, in some cases reach $250,000. Successful franchises make their owners lost of money. Why don't you take a look at how well these megachurch pastors are living these days. Brent wrote:
We are. All the stats out there, done by major church plant advocates show that there is no growth in the conversion rates in the US. People merely switch from one church, more boring perhaps?, to a cooler hipper church. Net effect=0 So, this movement in no way resembles the early church. And, if you want to see church planting in all of its glory, read our expose of an Acts 29 church plant which failed miserably. http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/12/11/countryside-defaults-where-is-the-acts-29-leadership-in-these-situations/ Read all of them. It is eye opening.
@ Brent:
Brent, Franchising does not work without the “Brand” image. A lot of time and money is poured into brand image including the “turn key” part of the operation. (churches using donor funds) This sounds like the body of Christ to you? It is exactly what is happening out there in this church planting movement.
I believe in a free market and see the great value of Franchising. The investment and work a person puts into it deserves profit. However, The body of Christ does not map to that system.
I forgot who took issue with my label of “unchurched”. Perhaps that wasn’t a good choice of words, but what I really meant is that many people in the country don’t really care if they step into a church more than a few times a year – but more relevant is the fact that God does just not figure into their daily lives. At least from what I”ve read and what my friends in Scandinavia have told me.
And as far as my family talking to me about what they saw in CLC – they did some. Mostly they were too far away. And I saw a lot of stuff myself and started wondering about it pretty early on. It just took me awhile to get out of there.
@ Brent:
“franchise…franchises…. But there is no crime or apostasy in what Hillsong, or any other church for that matter, does when it reproduces itself in another location.”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
crime? apostasy? let’s bring it down to ground level. how about plain ol’ words like appropriate & circumspect.
this reminds me of a visit to Canterbury Cathedral. I was completely absorbed in looking at this immense, ancient, gothic (in my mind), sculpted façade/archway. my eye followed the structure along to the right, where it joined with the next attached structure. Guess what it was. Starbucks. As if the world needs another Starbucks, let alone in such a spot.
“Franchise” — I think just about anyone understands what this word means in the context of this discussion. “Franchise”, as in let’s expand as much as we can and as far as we can in every city, town, along every highway and byway. Without any thought for how it impacts the community. What nearby businesses will suffer? Does the community even need it to begin with? These questions are not part of the equation.
At present, no matter where I am in my city and the 3 surrounding cities, I am at all times within 1 or 2 miles of either a Wal-mart Supercenter, a Wal-mart Neighborhood Market, and a Target. Not to mention 2 Home Depots and a Lowes each within 5 minutes of my home. The longtime family-owned hardware store downtown was obliterated.
I am thinking about the expansion of Christianity described in the book of Acts. There are already 1900 Christian churches in Los Angeles proper, not to mention the dozens of cities in its urban sprawl each with many churches. Hell, “Christianity” is worse than Starbucks.
What makes these ‘franchises’ in my mind is the amount of money they take in and what exactly they do with the money. Most of the money goes into branding, salaries, building expenses, and expanding. The money is not mainly used for the purposes it was used in the NT church — for those in need. Instead, pastors get paid like CEOs and poor members are harassed to give beyond their means “in the name of God.” I believe they are misusing God and his name.
Bridget wrote:
And very, very few are becoming Christians and that is the scandal of the megachurch crowd. Give money and bless yourself with Bose speakers and top entertainment by in-house produced videos, etc. Praise the Lord-such a mighty work of God.
@ elastigirl:
“Hell, “Christianity” is worse than Starbucks.”
++++++++++++++++++++
in order words, expansion of Christianity by means of stealing market share.
isn’t that cute.
You are mixing up at least three different issues here.
1. Tax exemptions are not the same thing as franchises; it is disingenuous to equate voting or corporate status with tax exemptions.
2. I do not know how you measure “success” when you write “successful franchises make their owners lots of money,” but by the exact same token, unsuccessful franchise cost their owners lots of money. What’s wrong with that, whether secular or sectarian?
3. I have read Wartburg Watch’s articles on how affluently some megachurch pastors live. I applaud efforts to hold them accountable when they are secretive about their incomes and live excessive lifestyles. However, it is journalistically lazy to extend criticism of financially and unrepentantly profligate ministers to the idea of multi-campus churches. The idea of one church in multiple locations is not unbiblical. Greedy, false-teaching preachers are unbiblical, regardless of the size of their church ministries and regardless of whether their churches have a single congregation of 20 people or have multiple congregations of thousands of people meeting at campuses all around the world.
Finally, by equating “franchising” with what Hillsong (and many other churches right here in the USA) is doing by launching a campus in Los Angeles has provoked sadly un-Christian responses in your comments section. Your readers are saying things such as “Hell, Christianity is worse than Starbucks” and “I believe they [pastors] are misusing God and his name.” Is that the sort of reactions Wartburg Watch is seeking to promote in the kingdom of God? dee wrote:
@ Brent:
To be clear, Dee is not responsible for my thoughts and words. She is not causing me to do or say anything.
You took my words “I believe they are misusing God and his name” out of the context in which they were used. I stand by my words in the context they were used. I will reiterate, requests for money, and the use of money, was not done in the NT Church the way it is today.
Brent wrote:
I am making the point that there is value to some of the franchise chiefs or pastors to participate in an endeavor, especially if they are being funded by the mothership.We know of some, who, even after failure, walked away with laptops, IPhones, etc.Brent wrote:
I am not a journalist so i do not know how I can be a lazy journalist. This is one woman’s view of what i see when i see the franchises move on in. Take a large town that I know of in the south. There are several megas vying for control of the region. When one sets up a satellite, the others do the same. It looks like those hotel parks in which you have Hampton Inn, Country inns and Suites and Holiday Inn Express right across the street from one another.
One does not increase attendance by setting up shop. They are merely vying for the same group of people with very little variation on a theme. Conversions are not occurring in any significant fashion. So, I ask. What is it that franchises offer? A well off pastor with access to ghostwriters to help with the sermon along with music leaders who all seem to have been affiliated with some sort of production company that almost had a Grammy at one time or another.
As for “sadly unChristian responses” I am sick and tired of people pretending all is well and everyone looooooves one another, etc. Meantime, underneath are issues-big issues. And it is about time to hear what people think as opposed to living in lala land. In case you haven’t read extensively on this blog, we allow people to go after us as well. We dish it out and we take it. I am interested in what people really think about what I write. We have people from all walks of life hear, including atheists.
Hillsong’s principles are banking on a success in LA and intend to make some bank, promising a life of prosperity to their new congregants. And they will be crashing into Calvary Chapel along with every other mega in the world who will be looking at moving in. This is our prediction and for non-journalists you might be surprised how many things we have called.
Bridget wrote:
You didn’t know that i have the ability to control minds?
Brent wrote:
Brent, to equate Hillsong with anything in the New Testament is a joke. There is no point of contact at all with the New Testament. Just because something calls itself a church and it is expanding doesn’t make it a church. BTW, do you happen to be a pastor?
@ Brent:
OK, I dont’ know if “franchise” is the correct word, but I am baffled how you compare these mega-churches (Hillsong is supermega, like 30-40 thousand a week) to the NT church.
My limited knowledge of Hillsong (I have known about it since the mid-ninties when pastors at my then church went down for a season to the church, but that was pre-internet days, so most of what I have gleaned is from the internet in the past little while):
Flashy Worship (looks more like a Rock Preformance than a worship service)
Meeting Place: Huge Building
Police Helping out with crowd control
Focus on faith helping the individual (you) get, get, get
Sacrifice = giving money to them, no marital sacrifice (celibacy), no lifestyle sacrifice (taking in abandoned kids as a “trademark” of Christians in that church, for example)
Blessings = not the notion of blessing the community or church, but a focus on personal blessings (if you give, YOU will get, it is all about the giver when the giver gives)
Offerings = pressure to give, incentives to give (you will only be blessed if you give this institution your money)
A New Testament Church:
Worship: had to be quiet and leave no obvious trace in the tombs (otherwise they would be arrested)
Meeting Place: held in underground tombs (just found a fascinating plaster painting depicting a female in Priest Garb and Stance painted on an obscure ceiling of an ancient catacomb – a known gathering place for the early church) or, if fortunate, a rich woman’s house
Police-like Centurions: arrested and threw Christians in jail, they didn’t help-out with services or crowd control
Sacrifice: Called to change their lives and not live for themselves. Elders in Ancient Rome were the men and women (Presbytyra is the Greek feminine of Presbytyr the word we derive “elder” from) who stayed behind when the Romans raided while the members ran away. This is why Paul and his relative Junia are thrown in jail in Romans 16:7 – the government was after the leaders – the leaders expected real persecution, and PRAISED GOD for whippings (they didn’t whine or throw a pity-party).
Blessings: They took any blessings, financial or otherwise and lavishly spent them on others – travelling Apostles, the poor, the sick, they took and raised babies abandoned on trash heaps, they lived with the threat of persecution over their heads daily, they saw persecution as a BLESSING and PRAISED God for it.
Offerings: They took up offerings for the pastors/apostles without being asked to and had to plead with Apostle Paul to take the offerings. Paul often refused the offerings if he felt they weren’t genuinely given
OK, so how, on earth does Hillsong look like a New Testament church again?
dee wrote:
How, dear sister, does any church “vye for control” of a region? Control of what? Certainly you aren’t seriously saying that megachurches control a region’s population in where to attend church? The picture you paint of churches “vying to control” is menacing and unfair considering that there are many megachurches, and non-megachurches, seeking to do exactly the opposite: To wit, seeking to set men and women free from the control of sin and shame by trusting in the Lord Jesus Christ and His blood shed on the cross. I live in a huge metroplex in North Texas. Here there are many, many megachurches … and even more small, medium, and large churches that aren’t classified as “mega.” Not a single church of any size “controls this region.” Residents of this area are still free to attend, leave, join, or unjoin any church they please. Undoubtedly, some pastors of churches in this area are greedy. But many more of them are true men and women of God, seeking to carrying out His call in their lives to the best of their abilities. Some of them have been led to open multiple campuses in various parts of the region and even in other states. Your opinion that multi-campus churches are evil as a general, all-encompassing proposition just doesn’t hold water. And don’t hide behind a “who? Little old me?” façade: whether or not your are a journalist or “one woman with a view”, what you do with this Web site is very much a form of journalism. The fact is that you have a respectable following of considerable size and, as you state it, of diverse backgrounds. You disserve your audience when you hold up the idea of multi-campus church planting as a reason to distrust some particular ministers. (You still haven’t looked up the definition of “franchise,” have you?)
Brent wrote:
How does something hold water for you?
@ Brent:
Finally, by equating “franchising” with what Hillsong (and many other churches right here in the USA) is doing by launching a campus in Los Angeles has provoked sadly un-Christian responses in your comments section. Your readers are saying things such as “Hell, Christianity is worse than Starbucks”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
make that, Christianity, Inc.
hmmm… please define “un-Christian”.
Brent wrote:
I have an MBA and am somewhat acquainted with marketing methods and franchises and even wrote a paper on franchises. Did you ever hear of the Hula-burger that was a McDonald's failure back in the days when there were still franchises to be had. As for North Texas, I lived in Plano for 10 years and am well acquainted with the mega capital of the US. Let's talk about opening day at Church Swindoll's church-a favorite subject of mine. I was there when it happened and was involved in a church in that area. Well, the word on the street of Christian evangelical fandom was that a famous, cool Christian, Swindoll, was starting a church. Suddenly, on opening day, there were thousands present since, after all, it is Dallas and a name is a draw. I believe that the Dallas Morning News called it an "instant mega church." People who attended that day were soooo excited because many of the cool, high profile, big hat people were there. Oh-what a shindig. God was at work and bringing them in. Except, they were coming in from the other churches in the area. There was one church, right down the street from Swindoll that was decimated. But, off course, it was a loser church. It didn't have the big name and the big hype to go with the big name. But,that's alright since the boys who really know how to do church were doing it. Brent wrote:
Where did I call it evil in any and all circumstances? In fact, could you show me where I called them "evil" at all.Brent wrote:
And let me say this loud and clear. 5 years ago you and everyone here had never heard of Deb and me. We were nobodies. Two women who stayed home to raise their kids and live what the comps would think is their idea of the correct life. For the first year of this blog, virtually no one read us. But the two of us kept slogging away and are startled, really startled, that anyone gives a hoot about what we have to say. In fact, I am startled that some guy in Texas feels the need to correct my obviously uneducated views on franchises. What really miffs off people in the evangelical celebrity circuits is that two nobody women who should be keeping their mouths shut could even garner some interest. We sure as heck didn't expect it. We hoped to get maybe 40 people who might could have a nice discussion. In fact, both of us are overwhelmed by the stories and the friends we have met here. We even went to see Eagle get baptized recently-a wonderful story that still brings tears to my eyes. And I do mistrust the multi site models. They are a perfect setup to become pastor-centric. And when that happens, the franchise can't even make decisions on their own since they will become a fully owned subsidiary of the mothership and will be told what and how high to jump. If one takes a growing octopus model and then takes a look at covenants, membership rules, etc, one can make a pretty good prediction of the experience you will have at that church. So, back to being irresponsible but having a great time meeting lots of people along the way.
elastigirl wrote:
Synonyms:
unbiblical
ungospelike
incorrect application
poor hermeneutics
Any resemblance to orthodox Christianty is purely coincidental.
dee wrote:
Or high paying jobs at Lifeway.
@ Eagle:
Eagle, I used to be a bit of a Hillsong/contemporary p&w fanboy here in Australia. Until I heard a sermon from Houston on TV one morning before Sunsay service (at a Methodist church). That disgusted me and since that day I’ve made it a point to look at the lyrics of most contemporary p&w songs (especially if I am leading songs at church). I’ve ended up realizing that the vast majority are puerile and the equivalent of verbal diarrhoea. Gimme some solid hymns (or chant) anyday. Sure I won’t get a wall of sound, but what I will get however is sound theology in wonderful prose (generally speaking). Interestingly, although I still attend that Methodist church (which is essentially an evangelical church) now with my wife, my theological convictions are no longer there. I am a curious mix of Anglo-Catholic, Lutheran, Roman Catholic and Orthodox.
Ok, I’m late to the party (have trouble keeping up these days), but as a Sydneysider I do know a little bit about them, and what I know is that they are a very mixed bag. My fundamental impression is that they have very little discernment, from what i know from people who have attended they can be spot on beautifully gospel-centred one week, and out there is crazyville the next, and they don’t seem to know the difference.
They attract a lot of people, but have a huge revolving back door. People do come to the Lord through Hillsong, no question, but a lot of them don’t stay. Some move on to more regular churches, some, inevitably evaporate from the Christian scene
A lot of people who get into the ‘system’ burn out from the demands.
I understand they’re not as prosperity focused as they used to be — but (and again it seems to be this total lack of discernment) they have some very strange bedfellows
Houston seems to be caught up in the pay-each-other-big-conference-fees circuit. I understand he did one year in a Bible college in NZ before jumping into church leadership, and of course (which you’ve probably covered) there’s the whole scandal about his father’s paedophilia — which he did respond to, but only after someone spilled the beans — did he really have no idea? (I don’t have a clue)
their music seems to be on a much sounder doctrinal basis than their preaching
I know people who love attending their women’s conferences — they all sound rather gooey to me, but some seem to thrive on them. I also know of teens who’ve really benefited from their kids’ conference programme — so again? I don’t know
@ Lynne T:
Thanks for chiming in about Hillsong. I really appreciate your perspective since you are probably more knowledgeable about them that us Americans.
I personally have no desire to be part of a large church, I don’t like them. I am not against them, just not for me. What I don’t get is all these pastor planting church after church like it is a business.
What I would love to hear? I “famous pastor so and so” feel led to plant and support fully a church in the poorest of the poor parts of Appalachia. Or the tenderloin in San Francisco, or right in the heart of gangland Los Angelos.
They don’t seem to want to go where there is little recognition of who they are. It makes me sad. Ever since the movie Field of Dreams came out Pastors all over the world pedal the idea that “if we build it they will come”. I thought we were supposed to take the gospel out of our four walls and into the darkest of the dark places. i guess i got it wrong.
@ beth:
What I would love to hear? All the investment going into what a community might actually need. What a concept! For instance, a community center that provides a place for youth to hang out, sports and art and music activities, college and career counseling, after-school homework clubs, tutoring, internships, jobs for the community. A “Pay It Forward Depot”. (remember, elastigirl said it first)
Actually, I don’t want to hear about it via self-aggrandizing publicity so much as just know that it is happening. And that real estate and investment is not going to yet another Church, Inc. franchise, but rather something like what I suggested above.
I’m tired of the face of cool-pastor-male-hero Jesus insinuating his brand & his image and his name everywhere.