All the world is full of suffering. It is also full of overcoming. Helen Keller link
We have been discussing the problem of suffering, the meaning of suffering and our response to suffering. Books have been written on the subject from every imaginable angle. Today, I shall present my stab at the problem. I do not believe that I have come to a full understanding of the subject and can well imagine there will be many who will point out the obvious holes in my theology. That's OK. Since the beginning of time, and especially since the early days of the faith, many theologians, most far more intelligent than I, have debated this subject. When I see godly Christians coming out on all sides of an issue, I believe that the answer is not as clear as some might pretend.
Eagle and I have had some discussions on this matter. He had interacted with far too many Christians who claimed to have the answer to all questions of the faith. I told him that I have many questions but, as I look at the Scriptures and see the work of the Spirit in my life, I have come to the conclusions that, in spite of my questions, the Bible gives me the best answers for the world that I see.
Before I begin, let me say three things.
- I affirm the Nicene Creed.
- I know that I cannot save myself-that is fully the work of our Lord.
- I believe in a God who is far more interested in bringing people into the kingdom as opposed to a God who is constantly on the lookout to keep people out. However, I do not believe that everybody will be saved.
The Beginning: Even the Angels exercised free will
Val made a most valuable comment yesterday.
Evil was already present and operating before human sin (serpent in garden lying to/deceiving Eve). No matter how humans “fell” after the fall, this was already a world with evil.
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. God created the angels before mankind. God, speaking to Job (38:4-7) NIV Gateway
“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?
Satan and his demons rebelled prior to the Garden of Eden incident. Satan was present in the Garden after God had created everything and said it was good.
Adam and Ever exercised free will
Then Adam and Eve sinned as well and compounded the evil and sin in the world. Suffering began immediately as Adam and Eve were banished from the Garden and forced to live in a world in which pain and hardship existed. From the very beginning, God had a two-fold redemption plan in place. Jesus would come as Redeemer, and then later, as the Victor, at which time the pain and suffering in the world will end.
I do not believe that God made Adam and Eve sin (as some have suggested). Instead it was a free choice on their part to do so. In fact, even the angels were created with free will to rebel against God and many of them, unfortunately, took God up on that right. Although I do not fully understand why, God did not provide a redeemer for the angels who fell.
By choosing to rebel, Adam and Eve, along with Satan, allowed sin to enter the world.
We now bear the consequences of that sin. Pain and suffering are normative. It is a result of living living in this fallen world.
God works through our free will.
I do not believe in election in the sense that certain men and women have been chosen, before time, to be saved and others have been chosen to go to hell. I believe that God foresaw our rebellion and foreordained the coming of Christ to save us. Although I believe that God could force us, through irresistible grace, to come to Him, I believe He works in, and through, our free will. There are those who would say that God's grace would be weak if He called us to come and we could resist that call. Yet, the Holy Spirit is part of the Godhead. He resides in the life of the believer and it is evident that we resist His guidance on a daily basis. Is the Holy Spirit impotent as well? Of course not!
I do not believe that God, in general, causes the events that bring us pain and suffering.
Our rebellion has caused everything to go haywire. The world and mankind was affected, and changed, by sin and God allows us to experience the consequences of that sin. He is still sovereign over all but that does not mean He must control every jot and tiddle of our daily lives. He holds the world and universe together and allows freedom within those parameters. In other words, we can pollute the beautiful earth that He gave us but we cannot totally destroy it.
God can, and does, intervene in the affairs of this world but I do not believe He is constantly micromanaging our lives. Tornadoes happen, particularly in Tornado Alley link because of environmental and topographical features. Tornadoes are just part of living on this earth in certain areas. I think that it is dangerous to presume we speak for God by claiming that they are miracles of destruction to punish Johnny who voted for Obama instead of the good Christian guy.
When bad things happen, it reminds us that this is not how the world was meant to be. It makes us long for the redemption to come.
Man is created in the image of God
I disagree with those who say that we no longer bear the image of God because of sin. All of us reflect God in that we are immortal beings, are rational (well, for the most part) and have some awareness of right and wrong. We are creative beings, reflecting the infinite creativity of our Father. We are important to the Father who loves us and wishes to be in relationship with us.
CS Lewis said link
It may be possible for each to think too much of his own potential glory hereafter; it is hardly possible for him to think too often or too deeply about that of his neighbor.
The load, or weight, or burden of my neighbor’s glory should be laid daily on my back, a load so heavy that only humility can carry it, and the backs of the proud will be broken.
It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare.
All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations.
It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics.
There are no ordinary people.
You have never talked to a mere mortal.
Nations, cultures, arts, civilization—these are mortal, and their life is to ours as the life of a gnat.
But it is immortals whom we joke with, work with, marry, snub, and exploit—immortal horrors or everlasting splendors.
This does not mean that we are to be perpetually solemn.
We must play.
But our merriment must be of that kind (and it is, in fact, the merriest kind) which exists between people who have, from the outset, taken each other seriously—no flippancy, no superiority, no presumption.
And our charity must be real and costly love, with deep feeling for the sins in spite of which we love the sinner—no mere tolerance or indulgence which parodies love as flippancy parodies merriment.
Next to the Blessed Sacrament itself, your neighbor is the holiest object presented to your senses.
—The Weight of Glory (HarperOne, 2001), pp. 45-46.
Through mankind, God brings good things into the world.
Bubonic plague killed many people but it is now cured through antibiotics. Modern farming methods bring abundant food to many parts of the world. We are finding cures and treatments for cancer, diabetes, and bipolar disease. There is even talk of a cure for male pattern baldness in the near future link! God uses people to bring some amelioration to the world's suffering.
At the same time, through mankind, pain and suffering is inevitable.
We have not found a cure for sin. We are positionally holy yet functionally still sinners. We say we long for sanctification yet, if we are willing to be honest, it seems like we overcome one thing, only to replace it with another issue. Sin and pain are inevitable.
The key: God created the church, the Body of Christ, as His means of bringing grace into the lives of those who suffer, both within and without, the church.
There are different outcomes for different sufferings and each of them involves a response, either from the sufferer or from those who are called to minister to them.
Suffering can be redemptive for an individual.
For me, the following is true
I am struggling with a way to say this that makes sense. There were two incidents of suffering in my life. The first was the brain tumor of my daughter in which she was given a poor prognosis in the beginning. I lived for years, fearing each day would be the day I was told she was going to die soon.
Then, there was confronting the poorly handled pedophile situation in a former church and our subsequent rejection by both the pastors at one church and then at another.
These things were horrible. It was hard to watch my daughter suffer. It was hard to see some kids who were sexually abused deal with that abuse. It was also hard to be rejected by a group of pastors as well as some in the congregation.
Had these two incidents not occurred in my life, I would most likely not have gone down the road that led to this blog and our willingness to go out on a limb to defend those who have been hurt, abused, etc within the church community.
There are many who have visited TWW who were hurt by the church and have gone on to help others who have been hurt. Julie Anne Smith of Spiritual Sounding Board link was sued by a former pastor and has gone on to support others through her blog. Many support organizations have been founded by people who have suffered pain and loss.
The lack of concern for others by the church is another reason that there is much pain and suffering.
Hitler came to power in Germany and "good" people, many of them in the church, were silent. So long as Hitler persecuted the Jews and left the churches alone, many people were content to be quiet. Yet, there were some Christians who opposed Hitler and his killing machine. Corrie Ten Boom link and her family helped many Jews escape. They were captured and sent to the concentration camps.Corrie survived yet her sister did not. She spoke movingly of her willingness to suffer in her book, The Hiding Place. What would have happened if the entire church in Western Europe showed the courage of Corrie?
Every day, people starve to death around the world, children are sold into sex slavery, pedophiles are protected in our churches and those abused by pedophiles are ignored by the church. See the quote by Boz Tchvidjian at the top of the post and think about it. Phil Robertson, a man worth millions of dollars, who lives in a mansion said something stupid, was not treated well and the entire Christian community was up in arms, signing petitions, standing up for their rights and buying rubber ducks link.
Supporters of Phil Robertson, the "Duck Dynasty" star who was suspended by A&E because of his recently published comments about homosexuality, are ordering rubber ducks to be sent to the network in protest of Robertson's suspension.
Janet Porter, president and founder of Faith2Action, told The Christian Post on Thursday that "thousands" of ducks have been ordered since the organization began offering them through MailTheDuck.com on Monday, though she was unsure of the exact number. Vision America, an organization that is partnering with Faith2Action for the campaign, said in a press release that more than 2,000 ducks were ordered in just 48 hours.
In the meantime, thousands have been killed in South Sudan link and precious few in the Christian community care about the children abused in our churches. Imagine if, instead of rubber ducks, people donated to build wells in Africa. They could even do it in the name of Phil Robertson if that floated their boat.
I remember speaking to a woman after the messy pedophile situation in a former church. The boys had not been offered counseling and some were suffering. I was terribly upset. I asked her why she was avoiding the subject with me since I was supposedly a friend. She said that she wasn't "called" to be concerned about the teens. I bet she was one of the first to sign the petition and probably even bought 2 rubber ducks for the "kingdom of heaven."
Those who are seriously, and even irreparably, suffering and harmed are to be cared for by the church. The church sins when it overlooks them.
Sometimes, pain and suffering can result in long term or even life-long pain for individuals. There are many in this world who are severely wounded by abuse, mental illness, and disease. Some of them may not recover or become strong enough to help others. We are called to minister to these folks, not judge them.
I am a supporter of the Wounded Warrior Project link. When some have lost both legs, we don't tell them to get over it. We give them prosthetics and teach them to walk. When someone has had a traumatic brain injury, we get them living assistance and long term help. There are some with PTSD. We give them support dogs, medication and lots and lots of counseling.
I think that some churches today look at the suffering as a blight on the feel good, jumping up and down, youthful megachurch in which pastors get rich and everyone is good looking. There are many megachurches which would never allow an elderly person or an individual with Down's syndrome to greet people because it is bad for the image. We certainly would not want new, well-heeled and youthful visitors to be uncomfortable. Besides, it is far more fun to buy rubber duckies and pretend we are being persecuted.
We screwed up and the world is a mess. God had a plan and through Jesus, saved His people and created the church. That church is part of His plan to bring love and strength to a suffering world.
(We had a little glitch this afternoon. Hopefully, I have corrected all of the issues with this post. Special thanks to Julie Anne Smith and Amy Smith for helping TWW out during the outage!)
As 2013 draws to a close, we leave you with a final "Christmas" carol.
Lydia's Corner: Isaiah 39:1-41:16 Ephesians 1:1-23 Psalm 66:1-20 Proverbs 23:25-28
Dee, love your video choice!
P.S.:I think there are some excellent comments on the previous thread re. trauma and its effects. (Not intending to tout my musings, but the comments of others.)
I do not know where the world would be without the efforts of so many wise and kind people of all faiths, and of none. We all bear God’s image; all of us can reach out in compassion or turn away in indifference. We all have a God-given conscience, after all. And I don’t know where I would be without the love and concern of many who are not, and probably never will be, converted to xtianity. So many “unbelievers” put talky xtians to shame, being more caring and Jesus-like than most of us (including me).
I think I have learned more about suffering from people like Viktor Frankl (author of Man’s Search for Meaning, who survived a Nazi death camp) than in the landslide of stupid, insensitive platitudes that tend to spill out of far too many pulpits, presses and other media outlets.
Let me quote Shakespeare for a sec –
“There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”
http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=15498
Dee, what a thoughtful and heartfilled post! I wish I could express myself as eloquently when interacting with family members who aren’t willing to look at suffering. The Bible commands us to share one another’s burdens, not respond will, “I will pray for you” and walk away! It is like if you don’t look at suffering, then it doesn’t exist. Then you can spend your time “defending your faith” from the evil public schools, the “gay agenda, and “flaming liberals”. I have rarely attended church since we moved back to Raleigh and am just finding my way back to God. Since when have churches become corporations, with a pastor CEO, a board of directors/ elders and consumers/ congregations? Life is messy and churches don’t want to get their hands dirty! I just had to rant! 🙂 We still need to get that cup of coffee sometime. Ann
If you live long enough, life will surely “clout you upside the haid.” As David Jeremiah said; “We’re all just waiting for the next train wreck.”
One other note Dee. How churches were handling pedophiles and victims in the 80s and 90s is a WHOLE lot different than now. First Baptist or First Pres or First Methodist is NOT going to risk a lawsuit for a pedophile. Ain’t gonna happen. It’s actually the smaller churches where the pedophile may know the pastor where problems will be manifest. Do you really think Steven Furtick is going to risk Elevation Church for a pedophile?
*
You’d be wrong if you think so. He doesn’t want the pedophile at his church.
Nuts…I get ready to dive into some serious discussion and Mom is yelling that dinner is ready! Oh well I only have a home cooked meal for a 1 week every year!
I’ll write more about this later….but I would suggest that if you are struggling with pain and suffering and the Problem of Evil, I would put the movie Extremely Close and Incredibly Loud on your list of movies to see. It explores this issue well.
Off to dinner! Meatloaf tonight!! 🙂
Ann wrote:
Yes. May God lead you to “be the change”. I am asking that for my own life as well.
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
Jeremiah doesn’t speak for me!
@ Eagle:
How nice! Hope you soak in all the family time you can and enjoy every meal.
Bridget wrote:
He doesn’t speak for me either. I’d rather take the advice of the writer of Ecclesiastes (repeated 5 times in the text) to not worry about the train wreck but to eat, drink, and be happy for what one has in the now.
Really enjoy your blog. The problem of suffering was a major stumbling block for me, it’s fascinating to read different takes on an answer for it. Epicurus has a quote:
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?”
I wasn’t able to come up with a satisfactory answer for myself, but I find it fascinating to try to understand others answers. Personally, I agree mostly with your point where you say suffering can bring strength and good. I know I’ve certainly had some good things come of personal suffering.
What has happened to the Tolling Bell blog? It is gone…
The OP:
I wish that were true of Christians in general but some are opposed to Christians with any sort of psychological problem using meds or seeing mental health professionals, and think they should rely on prayer/ Bible reading only.
I posted this in a previous thread:
PTSD Isn’t Biblical, Televangelist Kenneth Copeland And Historian David Barton Tell Veterans
OP,
I always found the angelic fall/rebellion interesting. I sometimes wondered why the Bible tells us God offers forgiveness and redemption to humanity, but not for the fallen angels.
(off topic)
In the last thread, I provided a link to a new story about Driscoll seemingly copying someone else’s tweet without giving that person credit.
Thank you for this. It was a balm tonight for me. A reminder. Where I honestly need to be with Jesus right now. Is my back strong with humility, or is it weak with pride? Is my charity a costly one? I am so thankful for places like this to receive encouragement, and understanding. I loved that you opened this topic up for discussion. I have been really struggling with forgiving those who hurt us, it has been a hard couple of weeks. Panic attacks came back with a vengeance all of a sudden, and I got a little angry with god over it. But I am beginning to understand that I must really make myself forgive, and let go of alot of my pain. I have carried that pain so long it is familiar, and I am kinda scared to be without it. I am going to try in the New Year to follow his lead and let go of my pain. Let myself heal, and forgive even though that thought panics me. I pray those who are hurting out there understand how much their savior hurts with them. I pray for them to have peace and forgive, and let their charity be the costly kind.
@ Muff Potter: or me! Sheesh. Talk about negativity.
@ Eagle: they probably need to pay the bill to the company that hosts their site, from the look of things.
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
Proverbs 25:20
Like one who takes away a garment on a cold day, or like vinegar poured on a wound, is one who sings songs to a heavy heart.
“Although I do not fully understand why, God did not provide a redeemer for the angels who fell.”
++++++++++++++++++
yes, interesting.
angels are spiritual, don’t have a corruptible form (as in an earthly body that ages, has problems, dies).
perhaps ultimate redemption for ultimate wrong (defying God/sin) requires a death.
perhaps this is not possible for spiritual beings who are not “clothed with the corruptible”, but rather the incorruptible (as in nondeteriorating, non-aging).
————
re: evil being present in “Eden” prior to human beings:
(thinking out loud, going to weird places:)
I think spiritual things are attracted to physical things. As if the physical component gives life or action or release to the spiritual component. A physical being (human; if an animal, very temporarily) enables release of the spiritual so it can do what it wants to do or exists to do. Almost as if the spiritual remains bottled up in itself until it has a physical outlet to enter, to interact with, to pour into.
I think God poured into gravity, electromagnetism, the elements & then their combining with each other to become this & that, combustion, the planets, stars, rock, soil, vegetation, aquatic creatures, reptiles, insects, mammals… in a way that was more real(?) or more significant than is/was his spiritual habitation (which he also created, I presume — or did he? perhaps it always was…?)
I have a sense that it felt good to God. To exercise himself, to let it out, let it go. to do and be the creative force that he is. to do and be the love force that he is, the social, interactive, communicating force. (major anthropomorphisms here)
I have a sense that it was wildly fun for God. The ultimate activity for God to do.
I don’t think spiritual evil can create, and perhaps it feels great denial in that. I think evil wanted to pour into human beings from the start, & still does, but in most cases the most it can do is just interact with them in varying degrees. I think there is great frustration because of this. perhaps adding to the hostility towards humanity.
…dead end here. i’m sure there’s more to explore here (not that anyone other than me would care to). And I’m sure this relates to the topic somehow.
H@ elastigirl: Judaism does not view the serpent in the garden as Satan. I’m down with that; I think the interpretation of the fall held by many is only one view out of many, Rather than being definitive. I also do not believe that the created world was irreparably broken by Adam and Eve’s admittedly bad choices.
Further, the whole thing sounds like a variation on other ancient Near Eastern stories of origin – and a talking snake that’s punished by losing its feet? Much like many N. American Native origin myths/stories. (Muff, help me out here!)
The Bible comes from many different times and places, and i’ve no doubt that many early readers (Jewish and xtian) would be boggled by our current interpretations of many passages. It is also literature, and the 2 creation stories in Genesis appear to come from different oral traditions.
Ok, enough said!
@ numo: besides that, Genesis is likely an answer (a riposte) to the Mesapotamian accounts of beginnings in the text Enuma Elish. You can easily find that online.
Overall, I think getting background info. is crucialnfor reading/interpreting ancient texts that come from cultures radically different from our own.
Rebecca Lynn, I found from a friend who is a nurse, that forgiveness is divine. It’s when I take hold of God’s forgiveness for myself and the other in a situation, that change starts. Then I can forgive from my heart, through God’s heart. I know the “familiar” feelings of doubt, despair, bitterness, unforgiveness, but God reminds me that I am more loved than I can imagine and am never alone, also that all is yes in God, and that I am or will be blessed and rewarded in some way for the suffering. Often, though, there is a time, and it takes courage, to get away from suffering if possible, or as you and your husband did, to confront or at least question or try to discuss an issue which you know or suspect is causing suffering. I know a little of what you went through, (was called demonically influenced by a former pastor, and told that if I left “his” church and my husband left also, that he was sinning, too.) That church was very cultish. It took me months of fear, anger, hurt and mistrust of church leaders in general, to forgive. Now I feel sorry, very sorry, for this pastor, although I pray that others in “his flock” will escape the abuse. That same person kicked out dozens of families, we were not alone. I have since spoken with some of those former members, and that was comforting and encouraging, as well. Please be patient with yourself (God certainly is) and I pray God will give you full healing down the road. It does take time.
@ numo: i do not believe that creation was ever “perfect”; how does that square with the scientific views of the development of earthly life + much more?
Ok, enough ranting for one night!
WANTED: a dark corner in some “tavern” hosting a string bass and brushes on drums, a table with a candle & 2 chairs, beverages of choice, and a friend to continue thinking out loud.
@ elastigirl: you save the table, OK? 🙂
@ numo:
yes. no argument on any of that.
I think sometimes it’s good to read the bible with blurred vision.
Or, the forest can yield deeper truth than can examining the trees bit by bit under a microscope. you surely get information by doing that, but I think it can get a bit goofy that way. and if divine inspiration means down to the arrangement of the letters in the word choices, staring at all that under a microscope for cumulative hours and hours and one’s mind begins to play tricks on itself. seeing things that aren’t really there in the first place.
that’s my perspective anyway.
@ numo:
“The Bible comes from many different times and places, and i’ve no doubt that many early readers (Jewish and xtian) would be boggled by our current interpretations of many passages.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
yeah, I can just see the ANE cloud of many witnesses now:
https://www.google.com/search?q=facial+expression+of+disbelief&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=V3PCUuDoNcnooATBiYHACg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1920&bih=944#q=quizzical+facial+expression+&tbm=isch&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=tZYNA7zBJBEhRM%3A%3BhVlblfbK__XW8M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fus.123rf.com%252F400wm%252F400%252F400%252Fmarkfgd%252Fmarkfgd0907%252Fmarkfgd090700002%252F5146988-close-up-of-middle-aged-woman-s-face-with-quizzical-expression.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.123rf.com%252Fphoto_5146988_close-up-of-middle-aged-woman-s-face-with-quizzical-expression.html%3B267%3B400
@ numo:
i’ll be the one in a black turtleneck sweater.
@ elastigirl: very much agreed. It’s not some kind of “magic” text that requires a secret WWJD decoder ring to understand. I actually believe God expects us to use the brains he gave us and do some genuine book learnin’. 😉
Even St. Augustine viewed the creation/fall accounts as allegorical yet true. One doesn’t cancel out the other by default, despite what many evangelicals have been taught.
Mark Noll’s book The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind is in my thoughts as I type… A reasoned historical analysis and critique by a self-professes evangelical scholar.
@ elastigirl: her!
@ numo: heehee, that is. (Back to the Droid custom dictionary I go…)
@ elastigirl:
“I don’t think spiritual evil can create, … in most cases the most it can do is just interact with them in varying degrees.”
++++++++++++++++++
having said that, I think much “evil” is
*a matter of probability. you live in tornado alley, chances are you’ll have to deal with a tornado. you skip meals and eat food low in nutrition, health problems more likely. etc.
*comes down to the fact that sh!t happens. Just like some of my Yahtzee scores. even though I diligently shook the dice, blew on them, said a prayer, & rolled them with great flair.
@ numo:
“i do not believe that creation was ever “perfect””
++++++++++++++++++++++
like a dog’s L-shaped ear canal. yeah, that’s the ticket — let’s make a dog’s ear in such a way that it traps water and debris so it can get easily infected!
(I mean no disrespect, God.)
Rebecca Lynn wrote:
Rebecca, may you indeed be able to forgive and let go this coming year. It’s good to be out of bondage.
__
“Heavenly Restraint Found For Hell Bent Religious Corruption?”
hmmm…
“Dort’s TULIP became the basis,
For a replacement state religious system,
As Catholicism in the sixteenth century,
Was seen to have lost its way,
Enduring years of corruption,
It’s sword removed,
The seven hill Bishop,
To his house confined.
Behold!, a new man in town!
Once in place, the cycle continues,
Religious tyranny it’s destiny,
Hope remove,
Until the next cycle begins,
On and on it goes,
Where it stops,
Nobody really knows.
The Master came to bring His life,
The gates O’ hell,
Shall not prevail?
Seated upon the throne in heaven,
it’s pronouncement patiently goes forth,
A light upon a city hill,
To evert nation, tribe, and kindred,
Christ Jesus, shall become all in all!” **
(Smily face goes here)
“In Him (Christ, Jesus), YOU also, after ‘listening to the message of truth’, ‘the gospel of your salvation’—having also believed, you were sealed in Him (Christ, Jesus) with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His (God Almighty’s) glory.” ~ Ephesians 1:13-14
YeHaaaaaaaaa!
(grin)
Hum, hum, hum…
“Leaning, leaning,
Leaning on the everlasting arms…
Leaning, l-e-a-n-i-n-g!
What?
I have blessed peace with my Lord so very near,
Huh?
i’m lean’in on da everlasting arms of God!” (1)
You got it!
Two yips, and a hoot!
hahahahahaha
*
Kirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrk!
“…this is initial voice logic reconstruction test, number one” ;
“Diagnostics on voice recognition and syntheses centers have been completed ;
…At this level all functions appear normal…” ;
Entering Keyboard input: “Hello doctor name continue yesterday tomorrow” (2)
[voice recognition and output operations begin…]
hellodoctornamecontinueyesterdaytomorrow
(fiddling…)
hellodoctornamecontinueyesterdaytomorrow
(fiddling…)
hellodoctornamecontinueyesterdaytomorrow
(more fiddling…)
hellodoctornamecontinueyesterdaytomorrow
(some tweaking…)
hellodoctornamecontinueyesterdaytomorrow
(a bit more fiddling…)
hellrotinyettyelrotinyettyelrotinyettyelrotinyettyelrotinyetelrotinyet…
“Hello, Doctor Chandler, this is HAL I am ready for my first lesson…”
hmmm…
Sopy
__
**(c) Sopwith Production, LTD.
(1) “Leaning on the Everlasting Arms” – Elisha A. Hoffman, adapted.
Comic relief:”Leaning On The Everlasting Arms” By Jeff Easter
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C9hr7Q_cck
Bonus’:
Deactivation of HAl 9000
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c8N72t7aScY
(2) HAL’s restart and voice test…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXgboDb9ucE
;~)
—
@ Anon:
Great quote.
@ Ann:
Let me know what works for you. After Jan 25 would be best for me. I am scrambling to get the wedding planned.
Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
I am not so sure. Some churches and pastors still think that they can cover it up or send the pedophile onto another church. By covering it up, they believe they can avoid a lawsuit. To be frank, the way some of these churches handle these things, they deserve a lawsuit.
There is a reason that SNAP is still in business.
@ Albuquerque Blue:
Thank you for the great quote and comment.
From my perspective, Epicurus overlooks an important question. Should God force mankind to obey Him? If He did, He could be declared a dictator who imposes His will on mankind, right down to “cover your mouth when you sneeze.”
If He should force mankind to obey Him, how much and how little? Should God put his had over the mouth of teenager who is hurting her friend? How about the man who wishes to go on a bender?
@ Eagle:
They had not been posting much. Tired of blogging, perhaps?
Daisy wrote:
He probably proposed to his wife with another’s words. The emperor is becoming more and more unclothed by the day.
Rebecca Lynn wrote:
Remember, you only need to be willing to forgive to overcome. If the man who caused you pain were to come to you and say he was sorry, would you forgive him? In the little time that I have known you, I would think the answer is “yes.” Jesus stands ready to forgive all who come to him and ask him.
The rest of it: the pain, the loss, etc. will go away with time.You have already overcome with your willingness to forgive.
elastigirl wrote:
I love your comment-all of it. And I think you are correct. God is Creator. It is as much a part of Him as Lover. And when He creates, He is being Him-in all of His glory. I bet it is fun-infinte creativity: the worlds, the heavens, the people, the animals (especially pug dogs-acccording to Petunia). Look at the animals. Who doesn’t laugh when they see strange birds, a giraffe’s neck and a snorting camel.
You nailed it.
numo wrote:
But, don’t you think that some honest historians and theologians have considered that possibility and still believe the Biblical account? Could it be that the other stories contain some elements of truth precisely because the Garden occurred?
The Fall has a ring of authenticity to me because the world that I see shows mankind ever in a struggle with his/her nature. Sure, we do some good things but we still continue to do some awful things. Some things change-we can cure the plague but Others do not. We cannot cure cruelty, pride and self centeredness.
The Garden says it all for me. Mankind fell, both with the help of his own pride and the outside influence of evil.
@ RB:
Incredible comment.
@ elastigirl:
I’m there.
@ elastigirl:
MOst days I look like the lion about 10 lines down.
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
That seems like the logical response, Seneca. But then you might be surprised at the illogical turn a well known leader might take if confronted with the possibility/fear of loosing their platform of celebrity fame and income. One thing is usually obvious, their concern is usually in all the wrong places.
@ dee:
. . . in designer apparel I hope 🙂
@ dee: it might not have happened exactly the way many posit. The 1st creation account is notably lacking any such thing, and is written from a grand – even majestic -remove. Account #2 is *totally* different, and God is anthropomorphized.
Understand that I believe that there *is* a point – or points – where mankind made some hugely bad choices and something changed. But I no longer believe that the 2nd creation account + the rest of it is literal. That does *not* mean that I believe it to be untrue!
Lewis wrote a fair deal on “true myth”and its importance in the central narrative of the xtian faith. Maybe you’d find those parts of his work intriguing… Though i’m doggoned if I can give you the sources right this sec. (Some of it is in Surprised by Joy.)
How do you reconcile the fossil record and paleontology with this paradise that’s located in Mesapotamia? Where and when and how does it all of a sudden happen, in the greater scheme of things? Again, I am NOT saying it’s untrue, only that what looks like a blow-by-blow factual account to many now was likely never intended as such. In Judaism -and in much of early church history – it was NOT understood that way.
Further, the Creeds don’t dwell on it. They do affirm humanity’s sin, but they don’t demand that adherents subscribe to biblical literalism as developed by American evangelicals/fundies. The central issue is Jesus the Christ, what he did for us, and what believing in him entails at its most basic.
The views i’m asserting here are very much mainstream in the RCC, Anglicanism and Lutheranism (the fundies of the Wisconsin Synod excepted!)
Ultimately, I think there’s plenty of leeway for both our thought as well as other povs. As with theories of the atonement, you know – because there’s never been one singular view, and the early church’s take was *not* PSA. That came along centuries later (and is one I cannot accept, with its vengeful God who needs to be placated – nope… The Son came of his own free will, and in the words of the old German hymn, was/is “of the Father’s love begotten. Same for the Passion and Resurrection – all freely and willingly undertaken out of love for the world and its many inhabitants).
I hope that makes sense. It’s taken me almost a decade to start coming to grips with this, and am still very much in process/transition.
One thing i’m certain of is that the Bible’s tracing out of God’s love for us is both true and real, even if not always literal. We pick and choose – in Genesis and other OT books – more than we realize.
@ numo: oops – even if *not all the details* are literal.
It’s tempting to read the Bible as if it’s a modern newspaper. But it was not written to be understood in that way. Again, I think most of its early readers, hearers and interpreters would find our interpretations pretty mind-boggling.
As an aside, if you read the Enuma Elish, which is hugely chaotic and violent, the creation accounts snap into incredibly sharp focus as something totally other. With one undoubtedly good creator God at the center…
@ numo: also… Early Jewish and xtian commentators are *much* closer to the source material than we’ll ever be, and lots of what modern evangelicals take as fact was viewed by them in a very different way/s.
As stated above, it’s not a newspaper, even though it can and does look like journalism to us.
The ancient Near East is light years away from us, and very difficult for us to comprehend, yet the Bible comes from that mishmash of cultures and centuries and reflects *all* of them, to a greater or lesser degree.
If the OT was compiled post-Exile (a mainstream understanding in both Judaism and most of xtianity today), that also puts it in a very different light. Contra Joshua, there is no hitoricalor archaeological evidence for Israelite genocide of the Canaanites, nor for a big, triumphal conquest… And that’s just for starters. So why does it say all of that? If compiled post-Exile, there are very real reasons.
Dee, I’m so NOT trying to shoot you down here! Just trying to give the most basic sketch possible (and sketch is all I could ever provide) of other views, many of them with millennia-long history.
Or… The Bible’s not a science text.. Or sociology or anthropology nor does it ever once claim to be a definitive history of the world.
“50,000 names collected to boycott A&E, only 1600 against sexual abuse in the church.”
RALLY ROUND THE BEARD, BOYS!
CHRISTIAN FAMILY VALUES(TM)!
With December 26th, the War On Christmas ended and Christian Culture Warriors (“BOYCOTT! BOYCOTT! BOYCOTT!”) have to find a new Urgent Cause Du Jour. (After all, if it weren’t for Christianese Culture Warriors, Satan would crush God!) And Duck Dynasty-gate involves (reverb) HOMOSEXUALITY (/reverb), which makes everybody go Screaming Crazy.
Erik wrote:
I would also add that God doesn’t command us to tell a suffering person that “God is in control” and then just walk away.
numo wrote:
What made it snap into place was the idea that the final form of Genesis may have been written as a PARODY of the Enuma Elish.
dee wrote:
Thanks for the kind welcome Dee! Well I was taught from the following passages something that kind of contradicts what you say here. (apologies if my blockquotes don’t work here)
That says to me (and in the interest of full disclosure I’m an apostate from Christianity and am now agnostic atheist) and I was taught that this means that it’s the thought, the intention that is the sin even before the act. I think murderous thoughts, it’s the same as the action in terms of sin. If the 2 acts are the same as sin, then what’s to stop an all powerful god from interfering then when the thought is committed? Free will has occurred, actions haven’t yet.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: or not, but it wouldn’t surprise me one bit!
I will be n touch in February. Hope the wedding goes smoothly! After that you will need a drink! 🙂 Anndee wrote:
@ elastigirl: I’ll probably be wearing jeans with Vans or some other sneakers… I like purple attire, btw.
@ elastigirl: pobabiliy: well, yes.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
You are more than welcome here. I appreciate that you would take the time to add your thoughts to the mix. We have a number of agnostics/atheist friends who visit here. In fact, your comments add spice to the discussion!
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
I loved this comment. I have never heard it expressed that way before!
I believe that Jesus’ purpose in making the statement was to slap the Pharisees upside the head. During this time, Jesus bridged the gap between the Old Testament Law pointing to something that was going to occur in a few short years. The priests will still fixated in a wooden application of the law. They were rules oriented and so long as they followed the outside rules, they judged themselves to be holy and good.
I believe that Jesus’ purpose, in this statement, was to show the Pharisees that they were not righteous just because they followed the rules. He pointed out that the heart was important. That nailed the Pharisees who did a great job of pointing out how screwed up everybody else is-not unlike many evangelicals today who point out the flaws in others and give themselves a pass. They were sinners, bad sinners although the looked good to themselves. Jesus would eventually go on to call them snakes and white washed tombs.
He was not equating murderous thoughts to actually murdering someone. He was showing that our sin problem goes very deep and, no matter how hard we try, we cannot overcome our fallen nature. The hopelessness of trying not to be angry(along with many other things) finds its only permanent solution in forgiveness. Christians are still a mess. They are positionally holy but functionally sinful and will be until one day in the future.
Back to your point: where does free will end ? Where does the line get drawn? Is free agency truly free if it has its limits? As an atheist, I know that your have some moral/ethical guidelines. I have been impressed with the atheists who have explored ways to implement ethics into how we govern and treat one another. Surely you see the problem there as well. Mankind seems hell bent in breaking every good value that most human beings hold dear.
From my limited perspective as a Christian, I see a problem in which the only solution, IMO, must come from outside of us, since we do not do such a good job ourselves. Could that be the lesson that is being taught? Christians believe that an end will come to this problem. It will happen one day when Christ asks a question “Had enough of doing it your way?” And the final solution will be at hand. God will take charge and the problems will cease.
I hope that you do not think i am being argumentative. I really enjoy discussing these things which is one of the reasons I started this blog. Again, than you for your truly original comment.
@ elastigirl: love you Yahtzee comment, btw… 😉
@ Sopwith:
Superb – HAL!!!
@ numo: probability, that is.
So sorry for the many typos in my replies, everyone!
@ dee:
“I’m there.”
++++++++++++++++
3 chairs, then. Great! and we could indulge in tangentiality.
@ elastigirl: maybe we need a bigger table?
Tangents are cool.(like Doctor Who’s bow ties.)
@ dee: intent is what he was getting at, no? If you covet something, you’ve got a desire to take something from someone else. You can choose to reject that attitude, or you can give it a place at the table and feed it and clothe it and let it eat you alive.
Not unlike battered, lonely old Ebenezer Scrooge. Who did indeed make another choice. That’s a marvelous story on many levels, and has so much to do with forgiveness and intent.
@ numo:
“pobabiliy: well, yes.”
+++++++++++++++++
just had to take a dig at one of my pet peeves: the spiritualizing of ‘what goes up then comes down’.
“all i did was toss it in the air. and then it had to fall down and break! i am under spiritual attack. God must be trying to teach me something, favored spiritual person that I am.”
@ elastigirl: oh man, yes!!!
numo wrote:
numo, here’s a link regarding a Menominee creation story, complete with malevolent spirits which at very least are a loose analogue to the Western theological tradition of ‘fallen angels’.
http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/CS/CSMenominee&Manabush.html
Calvin and Mohammed did. And their More-Calvinist-than-Calvin/More-Islamic-than-Mohammed followers took it even farther. We see the results.
A “Good Chrisitan Guy” who was actually Mormon. And was resisted in the GOP primaries (“NOT THE MORMON! NOT THE MORMON!”) until he cinched the nomination, at which point Oceania had always been as Peace with Eurasia and Mormons were Really Good Christians.
elastigirl wrote:
Isn’t that what Jesus says about the Tower of Siloam incident?
Some years ago, Internet Monk had a series of essays about something called “Surd Evil”, evil that seems to be no one’s fault and without source. Like Ungoliant instead of Morgoth.
elastigirl wrote:
“The Dark Power cannot create, it can only mock.”
— either Gandalf to Frodo or Frodo to Sam or Sam to Frodo
@ Muff Potter: interesting! Many thanks for the link, Muff.
If she starts wearing a ZZ Top beard, be sure to post a photo.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I still say that God looks like Gandalf (Ian McKellen in costume of course, and of course tongue-in-cheek)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: I think it’s odd that they didn’t simply refer to it as “natural evil,” but it might be that the other term (surd) is commoner now – ???
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
This is the statement from Epicurus that needs to be focused on. Of course God can stop evil, He is omnipotent. All sin, evil, and death in the world is God’s judgement for human sin, beginning with the Original sin. God is merciful in that He won’t allow it to go on forever, and that He redeems some of us out of it, through no deserving of our own.
Also, the above statement places man as a judge over God. God is our Judge, not the other way around.
@ dee:
Indeed, there have been many child sexual abuse scandals involving megachurches, including but not limited to FBC Hammond and Bellevue Baptist Church: http://stopbaptistpredators.org/scandals/bellevue
Seneca once again doesn’t know what he is talking about.
Another megachurch example, FBC Atlanta:
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/opeds/clergy_child_molesters_should_not_be_secret.html
http://www.snapnetwork.org/snap_letters/020607_baptist_atlanta.htm
__
Numo,
Thankz n’ Thankz!
Jesus said if you love me more than these, ta feed my sheep…
hmmm…
Q: Will Fritos and Sven-Up due?
(should be a decent change from all the proverbial religious manure they have been gett’in lately,huh?)
-snicker-
ATB14
Cheeeeeeeeeese!
Sopy
—
dee wrote:
He was not equating murderous thoughts to actually murdering someone. He was showing that our sin problem goes very deep and, no matter how hard we try, we cannot overcome our fallen nature. The hopelessness of trying not to be angry(along with many other things) finds its only permanent solution in forgiveness. Christians are still a mess. They are positionally holy but functionally sinful and will be until one day in the future.
Ah, that’s a way I haven’t heard it explained. I like that answer, much more realistic to everyday life. Thanks!
dee wrote:
Back to your point: where does free will end ? Where does the line get drawn? Is free agency truly free if it has its limits? As an atheist, I know that your have some moral/ethical guidelines. I have been impressed with the atheists who have explored ways to implement ethics into how we govern and treat one another. Surely you see the problem there as well. Mankind seems hell bent in breaking every good value that most human beings hold dear.
Well I’m actually rather hopeful about mankind. Yes, we do some awful things to each other, but we’re getting better. A couple of links.
http://bit.ly/1cV9yoL
http://n.pr/1eTPWmh
We hear about so much more of the violence, the hate and the hurt nowadays, but how much of that is the reflection of how easy it is to get and share news from 6+ Billion peoples stories then it ever was before (not to mention that many more people). I’m lucky enough to live next to my Grandma and as a 93 year old she has a wealth of stories and life experiences from a time so very, very different than mine (I’m 35). She lost 4 of her 5 brothers in WW2 and she is not uncommon from that era for those losses. I know very few people who can say anything close to that anymore, even in regards to those of the Vietnam war era. Life is getting better, and we all get to be a part of making it so if we choose to.
dee wrote:
I hope that you do not think i am being argumentative. I really enjoy discussing these things which is one of the reasons I started this blog. Again, than you for your truly original comment.
Oh my no! I love discussing thoughts of this nature, and the way y’all can discuss here has been what has attracted and kept me coming back to this blog. This is one of the best ways I’ve found to try to understand those with different beliefs. When you ask someone the why and the how of what they believe, you often find something either in common or ways of looking at shared values or interests that you hadn’t thought of or conceived. Thank you for your kind replies.
@ Sopwith:
Also enjoyed your recent riff on The Day the Earth Stood Still. 😉
Bah, apologies for the poor editing on my post. Seems my blockquotes didn’t work.
To our readers: We need your suggestions:
We will be doing an analysis of church, church affiliation and group websites. Please let us know if you have a particular group or church that you would like us to analyze in a post.
dee wrote:
I’d love to know what you know about or think about Mike Bickle and the International House of Prayer (used to be called “IHOP” — don’t know now, since they were sued by the “real” IHOP) I lived in the K.C. MO area for decades — Bickle was a mess, and really messed with other churches. Now he has a wide influence in the charismatic/pentecostal churches. Also, the “prophetic” and “apostolic” movements — in my experience, those who call themselves apostles and prophets aren’t.
Carole Ryan wrote:
I have added IHOP to my list to look at.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
He’s in the news now for saying adult men should marry 15 year old girls. I’m not joking.
Albuquerque Blue wrote:
I sometimes wonder about that kind of thing too. It’s hard to know what side to come down on.
If God can see the future, he can see something bad is going to happen, yet usually permits bad stuff to happen anyhow. It does make you wonder why he doesn’t intervene.
Did you ever see the Tom Cruise movie Minority Report?
It’s a futuristic sci fi movie where people get arrested before committing a crime, one that some precognitives saw them commit in the future. I was sympathetic to that culture’s desire to stop murders and stuff before they happened, but it was also unsettling to see people get arrested when they had not actually done anything yet.
It’s also like that old question I’ve heard people put forth, that if you could go back in time and snuff out Adolph Hitler when he was a baby in his crib (knowing that doing so would prevent the millions of deaths at his hands in the future), would you do so?
I was wondering about your term “agnostic atheist.” Was that a typeo?
I’ve heard of atheists and of agnostics, but I don’t remember hearing the phrase “agnostic atheist” before. Do you mean to say you’re no longer a Christian, but not totally on board with atheism, hence, you are “agnostic” about atheism?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Yes, and it seems like a lot of Christians ignore that tower story, and the one where Jesus answered the question of his disciples (paraphrasing),
“For whose sins was this man born blind, his sins, or his mother’s?”
And Jesus was all like, “Nobody’s.”
That is, sometimes when bad stuff happens to people, it’s not their fault, they did not do so some sin that brought it on, or God is not punishing them for something.
One reason I am loathe to talk to my big brother is that he has been in A.A. for years (12 step program), and while I am fine with treatment programs wanting to teach addicts the concept of personal responsibility…
IMO, they go too far with the philosophy, “And what role did you play in that?” if the person discusses some calamity in life. They victim blame.
The 12 step programs (like some schools of Christianity) assume anything and everything that goes wrong in your life is YOUR FAULT.
Well, sometimes it’s not. You cannot get any sympathy or compassion out of people with that mindset.
That’s one reason I don’t confide in my brother too often.
I can tell him a shark gnawed off my right leg at the beach last week, and he’d ask, “And what role did you play in that?,” as if I were at fault. Excuse me for just taking a dip in the ocean at the beach.
Muff Potter wrote:
I can see that, but ever since I saw the film “Bruce Almighty,” that movie’s portrayal of God (i.e., God’s personality) is similar to how I have always viewed God, so that I now sometimes visualize God as looking like actor Morgan Freeman.
IMDB, Bruce Almighty
Daisy wrote:
Yes I did, and I agree that it was unsettling. There was always a chance someone wouldn’t do the crime and the fact that the law in that story wouldn’t take it
Ah, sorry that’s a little atheist jargon. I’m atheist, no longer a Christian or anything else. Quick little breakdown on the term. Atheist = no belief in a god. Agnostic = no knowledge of a god or lack of one. A gnostic atheist both knows and believes there are no gods, an agnostic doesn’t believe in any gods, but doesn’t know for sure. For example some might say that the deist god or pantheist view of “god” hasn’t or can’t be proven or disproved. The closest analogue I can think of for Christianity would be Arminian vs Calvinism. Personally I don’t believe in any gods, but I’m open to the idea that perhaps something could be shown or proven to exist. Clear as mud I’m sure. ^_^
Would like to connect to Boz link. The irony is that Phil really does not get it. In one poll over 60% of homosexuals admitted to being sexually abused at one time in their child to teen years. Also Judith Reisman has shown a direct correlation to increased pornography and homosexuality in the last sixty years. Oxytocin in the brain makes it hard to overcome bad memories.
Wow, Casey, given that studies show that on average, only 1 in 10 children, who have been known to have been sexually molested, admit it, even when directly questioned, that is a mind boggling number. Have heard that sexual molestation/exploitation of children, especially young children, has quadrupled since the 1980’s. Don’t know if that is North America, U.S. or world data.
Muff Potter wrote:
Casey wrote:
Can we have some links to these studies please? I need some hard evidence to back up these potential truthinosities.
Dee
But it turned out is a committed practicing Christ follower! Moreso than any president since Carter. It is just that many confuse political affiliation with religious belief! BTW there is a long Christian tradition that supports liberal social & econ policy as an ethical outgrowth of faith.
Turned out Obama is a Christ follower
@ BeakerJ: especially the part about oxytocin…
@ An attorney:
Uh Dee? Seems you never say a word unless one responds to them they you say something. Why is it so one sided here? thought you wanted politics left out?
[growl grumble grr]
Moving right along…
@ numo: Dee is rushing around trying to get ready for her daughter’s wedding.
Anon 1 wrote:
First, let me apologize. I had to get my son off to college at 6AM today and was up half the night coughing my head off. I received some phone calls this AM regarding wedding stuff as well as having to deal with some other family matters. I am sipping tea, trying to get the fog in my head to lift and I didn’t even stay up until midnight!
“An attorney’s” comment was made in response to something I flippantly said in another comment stream. So, I take the blame for starting the political commentary. My comment was not well thought out and it could have been easily misinterpreted and an attorney is well within his rights to respond to it. It is totally my fault and no one else’s.
I have always been interested in politics and have been, in the past, heavily involved in some campaigns. In fact, we toyed with the idea of making this a faith and politics blog. But, the more I thought about it, the less I liked the idea. My main goal has been, and always will be, a focus on the faith issues.
So, when I am tired and a bit overwhelmed, I can slip and say something which I think is funny without thinking of the possible ramifications of it. I am glad that you pointed out the issue. But, the blame falls entirely on me this time. I apologize.
Now, back to regular programming. It seems our spam filter is getting overwhelmed again-there were a gazillion spam comments gumming up the works today. GBTC is going to be doing some updating on the blog for the rest of the week.
Numo
Boy, truer words have never been spoken.
numo, I saw the quadruple statistic on a U.S. government website dealing with child abuse, and probably bookmarked it, so will try to track that down and get back with it. “The National Center for Victims of Crime reports that one out of every four girls and one out of every six boys experience sexual abuse during their childhood.” Carla van Dam, Ph.D., a clinical and forensic psychologist, wrote in an article, Stopping Sex Offenders in Their Tracks, that the estimate is 25-33% of children continue to be molested. I don’t have a date for that article, and assume it was written in the last 10 years.
@ An attorney:
I’m a Republican. I didn’t vote for Obama.
I just don’t vote for Democrats, whether they claim to be “Christ followers” or not.
I have several family and friends who are Dems, and we get along, btw. I don’t exclude folks over political difference. Unless they make it a huge issue and always want to fight, fight, fight about it.
I don’t really keep close tabs on Obama’s religious sentiments, but based on what I have seen in years part, he shows favoritism to Islam, even if it means giving Christians or Christianity the short end of the stick, which is mighty strange if the dude considers himself a Christian.
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
And yet another megachurch, Prestonwood: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/search?q=Prestonwood
You’re probably also the only person on here who thinks that cretins like Perry Noble, Steven Furtick, and Mark Driscoll wouldn’t cover up abuse in their churches if it happened.
Daisy wrote:
Especially in regards to the people he supported and supports in Egypt, Libya, and Syria. The same people killing Christians left and right.
However, Obama’s support for abortion (even partial-birth abortion!) places him squarely outside the Christian faith, and this has always been Obama’s position. And his former “church” of twenty years was a false church.
Could we please cool the political talk?
It never ends up going to a good place. See Dee’s comment immediately upthread.
@ Carole Ryan: Totally agreed.
Beakerj and numo, my bad, the quadrupling refers to sex trafficking having gone up that much in recent decades, but since that usually includes young teenagers, often 12-14 years of age, I consider that sexual abuse of children. The Boston University School of Medicine has the same findings, 1 in 10 on average, children are molested or worse before the age of 18, 1 in 4 girls, 1 in 6 boys, Sept. 2011. I was scouring different child sex abuse sites today, Casey’s number of 60% came up twice, one social worker’s article said 90%.
@ numo:
I only made the one post. It doesn’t bother me that much.
Maybe because I’m used to talking with or among people of differing backgrounds.
I have family and friends who are atheist, agnostic, liberal, libertarians, Democrats, Tea Party, Republicans, Pentecostal, Roman Catholic, pro abortion, pro life, etc., just all over the place on religion and politics.
I like to mention on occasion that I’m right wing and Republican on these sites, because most folks who visit seem to be anti-right wing, and/or pro-Democrat / pro progressive.
I’ll read some trash talking about theological or political conservatives on various spiritual abuse blogs or forums (including Internet Monk), as though those posting the sniping are assuming every other regular visitor shares their views down the line, which is not always so.
I have an acquaintance on Facebook, who was regularly trash-talking Republicans on Twitter quite fiercely (she and I also follow each other on Twitter).
I wasn’t sure at first who she was on Twitter. I vaguely knew she was someone I knew from FB, but that was about all.
She uses a different name on Twitter than on Facebook.
After weeks of reading non stop abusive comments about right wingers, I left a post on my FB wall about it (not mentioning her by name) pointing out it makes me rather sad.
She left me a post on FB apologizing for the regular anti- Republican screeds on Twitter and toned down her vitriol against conservatives and Republicans. (She had no idea I was a Republican / conservative prior to any of this.)
I usually don’t post about political stuff on Twitter or Facebook.
@ Nicholas:
I agree with much of what you wrote.
I’m not sure about your church reference in regards to Obama. Do you mean the church he went to where Wright was a pastor?
I have a horse-loving Democratic Aunt (she has owned horses for years) who voted for Obama, who acted as though I was lying to her, when I told her on the phone over a year ago that Obama okay’ed the slaughter of horses for human consumption.
I told her that information is all over the internet. She can check it if she wants.
I don’t even care about Obama’s political affiliation on that score: I’m an animal lover who doesn’t feel that people should be killing horses for meat… or for any reason.
Obama, Congress restore horse-slaughter industry
I don’t support Sarah Palin (Republican) shooting bears, wolves and moose (or whatever kind of animal she was shooting years ago) from helicopters, either (or she was advocating it).
I have extended family who hunt. I don’t support their hunting, either. I’m not sure of all their political affiliations, but I’d assume at least one is Democrat. Not sure about the rest.
I have a Republican (or she may be conservative Libertarian, I’m unclear) friend who lets her ten year old son go squirrel hunting, as recently as last week…
And yet, she gets upset over animal abuse stories.
Like when I post links on Facebook to stories from groups that aim to stop animal cruelty, she finds that disturbing to read/see headlines about people who are mean to animals, and the photos that go with the stories have not even shown dead animals or anything graphic. 🙄
I don’t approve of her letting her kid hunting squirrels. She’s fine with her kid shooting squirrels but gets upset seeing links to stories about animal cruelty. It makes no sense to me.
@ Daisy:
Yes, I meant Wright’s church.
@ RB: back in the 80s, I lived in a D.C. suburb where there were brothels in private homes run by Thai organized crime. Then I started getting calls from men, all asking for a variety of women (or the same woman using different names). I had the phone company put a trace on my incoming calls until that stopped.
The sex trade in Thailand is notorious for “employing” very young people. Am assuming the same was true with these local brothels.
Much trafficking goes on in countries where there are few resources available to fight it? We don’t hear much about that, really.
@ numo: ? was unintentional.
numo, yeah, I know. Breaks my heart. There are whole travel packages, especially to Asian countries, specifically to accommodate the sex trade.
RB wrote:
Help me out. 1 in 4 girls (25%) and 1 in 6 boys (16.7%) gives a total of 21% for all kids. Or about 1 in 5. At least to my math. Or am I missing something?
Daisy wrote:
I’m sure we’re going to hear of some Big Name Christians (the comp/patrio types) Rallying Round the Beard on this one, too.
NC Now, sorry, I may be confused as well. One estimate was reflecting an average of 10%, 10 in 100 children, are at least molested by age 18. The 21% makes sense, though, given what I’ve read from other articles, which have also talked about duplicate (multiple) molestations to the same child, and multiple articles stating that proven incidents can be difficult because of stringent parameters and the fact that the overwhelming majority of actual incidents go unreported by victims, many of whom are children under the age of 5 or 6 years. Some of the studies have taken the average of multiple vs. one time molestations, so I guess it depends on which studies you’re reading. Also, I wasn’t sure if they represented world wide, North American, etc., data. There are many websites out there on the subject, including some good ones from governmental sources. You might do a better job at putting it together than I did, but regardless, the information is eye opening. I have read before that the state of a society can be measured to some degree, by the way it treats its most vulnerable citizens.
@ NC Now: unfortunately, that sounds completely believable.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: yes. The idiocy of these “trends” just boggles the mind.
@ RB: Your comments will show up much sooner if you quit using a new email address for every comment.
If you have any questions about this do NOT discuss it here. Email me via the contacts page.
GBTC
GBTC…I bet you can speak a lot to suffering and free will by working on technical issues behind the scenes! (LOL) The question is…where you predestined to suffering in maintaining this blog! 😛
Nicholas wrote:
Nick, though you said you have a degree from the second best University in England I don’t think you read my post carefully. Would these guys risk their church for a pedophile (other than perhaps their brother?). I don’t think so. I think they’d “throw them under the bus” in a heartbeat.
@ Seneca “j” Griggs: Nicholas is from the US.
@ Seneca “j” Griggs:
And yet, as I demonstrated with actual sources, Megachurch pastors have done the exact opposite time and again.
Churches in general that cover up abuse do so in a misguided attempt to protect their image and reputation, when what really tarnishes their reputation is their failure to do the right thing. They also actually think that they will avoid a lawsuit by covering it up.
The examples you gave, Furtick and Noble, as well as their friend Driscoll, have repeatedly shown themselves to be wicked and self-serving men. That gives us no reason for confidence that they would do the right think if child abuse occurred in their churches. I can safely say that no other regular commenter here will agree with your claim.
As for the degree, you may be confusing me with Nick Bulbeck. I am indeed from the US and have never been to the UK.
numo wrote:
Not so: http://www.letterofmarque.us/2013/02/penal-substitution-in-the-writings-of-the-church-fathers.html
@ Nicholas:
His use of bolding for some of those quotes is silly, as all he ends up highlighting is the fact that he’s lifting those sections out of context and ascribing views to many of the writers that are the opposite of what they’re saying.
Dying for us is not the same think as the Calvinist view of PSA, and he is trying to proof-text in the same way that ESS advocates do with the Nicene Creed and other early documents, creeds and statements of faith.
David Barton’s c!claims about Thomas Jefferson come to mind as well.
@ numo:
The context for each statement is given. Your rejection of subsitutionary atonement is due to your contempt for the doctrine, not because of any lack of historical precedent.
From various comments you have left on the blog, I see that you deny a actual Fall, embrace historical (“higher”) criticism of the Bible, embrace universalism, and deny the sinfulness of homosexuality as well. You can believe whatever you want, but you cannot call it Christian. And your views are only “mainstream” in denominations which are themselves no longer Christian, such as the ELCA.
@ Nicholas: ok, i’m a heretic in your eyes. You seem to enjoy labeling people in this way, which is really not sporting of you, old chap.
In other words, it may be fun for you, but it’s not a game I’m inclined to play, and this is *not* a good place for you to try it on.
@ Nicholas:
And what would you have numo do? Go against her conscience because it doesn’t comport with your one-and-only-true-version-of-the-pure-faith?
I remember when I was living in Milwaukee and drinking the kool-aide. Me and other sin Crusade thought that the Lutherans were not Christian. Same as the mainstream Protestants.
(LOL) It took years to get that thinking out of my system.
@ Nicholas: dude, please chill. Your righteous indignation is energy better used on other activities.
I’m no heretic. You need to learn to listen to others rather than sitting in judgment on them. I’m old enough to be your grandma and if you tried it on in my house, you’d be asked to kindly hush up and learn some manners.
The fact that this is online communication doesn’t alter that one iota.
@ Eagle: yeah, I got some dropped jawed freakouts when I told some folks from That Church about my views on the Eucharist. 😉
@ Muff Potter: in a word, yes.
@ numo: because it sounded WAY too Catholic for them.
@ Eagle:
Although I am edging closer to being agnostic, my understanding of Christianity remains orthodox and conservative. It troubles me to visit ex Christian/ spiritual abuse blogs, and typically, the attitude I see is held by folks who decide because they were hurt by fundamentalism or conservativism or whatever, decide to throw the baby out with the bathwater and do a 180 on doctrine and social issues.
People often do define themselves, or entire denominations they are in, as being “Christian” even when those folks/denoms are not truly Christian, not when measured against what the Bible says.
@ Daisy: harm can do that to a person, Daisy.it really can.
Different people process bad experiences in myriad ways. It’s good to keep that in mind. And venting is normally about very real anger and pain and betrayal.
@ Daisy: err, what do you mean re. measured against the Bible? I’m serious; so many people use that phrase that it’s important to know what’s meant by it.
@ Eagle:
I am a Lutheran.
@ numo:
-The Bible does not contain error
-It was all written by God (Holy Spirit) through men
-It discusses events which took place in history (with some events yet to take place)
Some people who profess to be Christians twist and distort the Bible to suit their views, or downplay or ignore the portions they don’t like.
If you believe, as that guy above said, in universalism (which is the belief that all humanity will be saved), the Bible does not teach that.
@ Daisy: my beliefs are not the issue, though. All I did was ask you for clarification, and then write in reply to your thoughts on how some people seem to do a 180.
No debates on what I believe or don’t, though civil discussion is cool.
@ numo:
All I could do after reading the last 20 comments was bbbiiiggg eexxhhhaaallleee . . . . and sssiiiggghhh
@ Bridget: I hear you, Bridget!
@ Daisy:
Daisy, I used to think, like you, universalism was some hippy-dippy love-conquours-all reading of the Bible. Then I saw the movie “Hellbound” one of the most prominent points that struck me was the clip where they showed 3 columns: first – (regular version of) Hell; second – annihilationism; third- universalism. All three columns had an equal number of verses listed under it to support it. The movie also delved into the Church father’s teachings, many taught annihilationism or universalism. In fact, the early church’s “Word” that Paul so often refers to in the New Testament included the (often viewed as ‘Catholic’) Apocrypha and the Pseudepigrapha writings in their cannons – these views later became the ideas of Purgatory and Paradise that the Catholics still hold to. Even Paul viewed those early writings as “God Breathed”. Those early, “God Breathed” writings give a much wider playing field that our current Protestant Cannon does today over life-after-death issues. Yet even without all those extra canonical (to Protestants) writings, the Bible doesn’t make Hell any more clear than the other ideas. Remember, even today, the majority of Christians hold to the view of a Purgatory/Paradise. Not a Protestant Heaven/Hell. It is even more lopsided against Hell (towards Purgatory – or a place of refining) if you add all the Saints throughout Christian history.
All that to point out, Hell is a late Medieval concept popularized by Dante and grasped by Calvin, not a universal church teaching or even a clear teaching of the Bible, notice it’s absence in the Creeds.
Numes, am starting to bristle slightly on your behalf. I’m going to circle the wagons & cock my shotgun, maybe even fire a warning shot. Guess who got a boxset of Deadwood this hols? 🙂
But I also know it’s hard for some to understand the rejection of what they consider clean & clear orthodoxy…sometimes until you get ‘there’ or near it yourself you’d never believe you would go there either…or who you might find there.
I have enjoyed reading Ancient Near Eastern (here on in called ANE) literature and comparing it to Genesis 2 (which contains numerous common ANE cultural motifs). What has helped me view Gen. 2 as important is not the “realistic-ness” of it in our western view. Rather, it is how the ANE readers would have viewed the story.
For the average ANE reader – well, actually hearer, most of the ANE audience would have heard it, not read it – The “Garden” was a temple. The imagery in Genesis one points to earth as God’s temple – to them, not to us, to us it points to a cosmic creation, to them, it would point to God setting up his temple on earth. The imagery in Genesis 2, while borrowing heavily from surrounding ANE mythologies, shows a Priest couple – yes, couple, not man with helper, but two Priests, one a male, named Adam (Earth or Mortal) and the other a woman named (Eve, or life). They were the Priests of God’s creation/temple. Their sin, then, wasn’t just an ‘oops-a-daisy that Serpent sure fooled me’, but a huge betrayal of their role as Priest and Priestess to God the creator. They allowed a non-God to come and talk them out of their duty to remain pure and abstain from certain “fruit”. That motif is huge in ANE culture. Eating the forbidden (insert anything) was akin to stepping down from a place of purity (think Samson, who was supposed to live differently than even the other Jews in his culture), that marked them as Priest/Priestess to “commoner” or unworthy of their Priesthood.
Would a high priest defile himself by eating Pork before entering the Holy of Holies? That is pretty much what Adam and Eve did in the eyes of the ANE hearers of the this story. They defiled themselves. It isn’t so much why God put a tree they must not eat from in their “garden”, it was their role as Priests before God that they defiled by listening to the Serpent (not saying the Serpent is Satan here, but he certainly is an evil plot figure). Priests and holy people lived in the same land and were tempted by the same things the commoners were, but, to be a Priest or Priestess in the ANE (there were both males and females as ANE religions were fertility cults), they abstained from stuff in order to be Holy. For the Jews, it was Pork, for the strong- wild-men it was wine and bread (see Enkadi in the Epics of Gilgemesh). The point of a fruit tree in the garden wasn’t a “test” by God, it was something that all ancient Holy-seeking people were expected to deal with (temptation).
Other motifs in Genesis 2 include:
– Tree of Life (a goddess or a Tree with a face found in images in all the god’s gardens/temples)
– Eve being taken from Adam’s rib (a word play on Life and Rib in Mesopotamian, there is a goddess in a Mesopotamian holy garden who is called Nin-Ti – meaning Lady Rib or Lady Life as Rib and Life were the same word in ancient Sumerian, but not in Hebrew though, so the word-play gets lost).
– Eating the forbidden food, then losing Paradise – found in many ANE Mythologies, most notably in the Epic of Gilgamesh’s tale of Enkadi.
Despite similar motifs, Genesis is a stand-alone story, for in all the others, a strong-man has to come and wrestle evil or chaos. In Genesis, there is no victory, the fallen are sent out on their own. Only a vague promise of a woman giving birth to someone who will “crush his head” at some future point is given as hope for humans, then God almost wipes them all out in a flood.
@ Val: thanks so much for bringing up some of the other possible interpretations
Most Protestants seem to start at the Reformation and ignore the 1st 1500 years of the church’s existence, along with the many interpretations of Scripture that don’t conform to their views. History is what it is, and to me, learning more about the history and literary genres of the books of the Bible adds to the depth and richness of it all, rather than causing any diminution in the view of God or the overall sweep and scope of these 66 highly disparate books gathered under one cover.
The tracing out of God’s loving purposes for his people comes to the fore, rather than receding. But I know that it was difficult for me to wrap my head around some of this stuff, and I don’t expect it to be easy for others.
Re. your comments on Genesis 2, I believe that’s one possible reading of the text. We often tend to take symbolic/allegorical sections of Scripture as if they’re literal, play by play descriptions of historic events. Very often, the texts in question are poetic and full of subtle and obvious references that are difficult to appreciate without some understanding of ANE culture, cosmology, !literature, etc. When read in that light, these passages begin to take on multiple layers of meaning and significance. The text isn’t diminished; it becomes far more nuanced and beautiful as a result.
Also, I don’t see what could possibly be wrong as far as exploring the history of biblical interpretation itself. 🙂 it’s absolutely fascinating in its own right, imo.
Universalism: there’s more than one way to look at this, too, though I guess I should have anticipated being pilloried for hinting at one form of it.
Many evangelicals have never been free to explore and learn, as with academic study and freely asking questions. God is not threatened or diminished when we do so. Again, Mark Noll’s book The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind is a good jumping-off point.
@ Val: did you mean Enkidu when referring to the Epic of Gilgamesh? Must admit that I’m a bit confused here…
@ Val: the modern view of hell developed over many centuries, and got spun into its own thing in Western art and culture during the Middle ages and after.
Not sure that saying so is intrinsically evil, or whatever. 😉
@ BeakerJ:
Thanks, beaks – and yes, I’ve been there and done that, so I have more than a little sympathy.
The world’s a pretty big place, all in all, with room for many points of view. But it really can take time to understand that.
Daisy wrote:
I know this view of Christianity serves some ok but if it was correct, I would certainly be agnostic. Perhaps it is partly why you’ve been considering leaving the faith?
Making a book the be-all is far too narrow, ISTM. A book can point to relationships (as for eg, a book on friendship), but it can’t, by its very nature, replace relationships with God, self, others, creation.
A worthy philosophy/theology will be as wide as the universe, able to make some explanation of all that is known.
Val wrote:
Actually, the Jews never considered the Apocrypha to be Scripture. The Apostles were no exception.
Val wrote:
That is Jesus Christ.
Val wrote:
This claim is absurd on its face. The doctrine of Hell is and always has been derived from the Scriptures: https://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell
And before you try to dismiss as “proof texting”, you and click on the verses to read the entire context.
And btw, Roman Catholicism doesn’t reject the existence of Hell.
Val wrote:
Wrong again. It is mentioned in the third Ecumenical Creed, the Athanasian Creed: http://bible-researcher.com/ecumenical-creeds.html
And arguing that a doctrine isn’t important because it isn’t mentioned in the Ecumenical Creeds is a false argument. The Creeds were each written to address primary problems addressing the Church at the time. That’s why it doesn’t stop at the Apostles’ Creed. The Apostles’ Creed was written to answer Gnosticism. The Nicene and Athanasian Creeds answer Arianism. The Definition of Chalcedon answers Monophysitism and Nestorianism. And each branch of the Church has authoritative doctrinal statements, pronouncements, or confessions postdating the Creeds.
The doctrine of Hell as eternal conscious torment was held in the early Church: http://www.letterofmarque.us/2013/06/survey-of-the-doctrine-of-hell-from-the-church-fathers.html
Other views, such as annihilationism or universalism, were in the minority.
@ Nicholas:
Nicholas,
I would think twice before tackling Numo. He/she has done a heck of a lot more thinking than you obviously realize, which is why he/she believes the way he/she does. Your doctrines are massively presumptuous, which is why Numo rejects them, I suspect.
@ Nicholas:
So your God is fine with letting the majority of his human artpieces be tortured forever and ever? What kind of personality (and omnipotent, on top of that) would find this to be a good thing, the best thing?
Since we are made in God’s image, consider the humans who think torturing creatures, when they do wrong, is a good idea. They imitate the character and standards of your God.
@ Nicholas:
Nicholas, aren’t you from a fundamentalist background? I think you’ve mentioned that before, along with your conversion to the LCMS.
I hope you will learn more about God’s grace, mercy and love… Because if he did not love us, he would never have become incarnate, suffered and died for us. He did not have to do it, but he chose to – out of love for all.
Perhaps the parable of the prodigal son will help with that. I also wonder if you have spent much time contemplating the other aspects of the theology of the atonement. None are the whole story; all contain much truth.
The bottom line: he is risen!
@ Patrice:
Finally, the real objections to the doctrine of Hell come out. The objections are not actually based on the Bible or history. Same with the objections to Subsituttionary Atonement. If only people would be this honest to begin with.
Your objection is based on a rejection of the actual Righteousness, Holiness, and Justice of God as laid out in the Scriptures themselves, as well as setting yourself up as a judge over God. Btw, is Ted Bundy a “human artpiece?”
@ Argo:
In your comments here you have denied the Trinity, the Ominscience and Foreknowledge of God, the existence of the Soul, Subsittutionary Atonement, and the inerrancy and even infallibility of the Bible. Call it Argoism. But don’t call it Christianity, it’s not.
@ Nicholas: I’m not sure why you’re so angry about this, but I hope it won’t always be so for you.
Btw, I don’t in the least reject substitutionary atonement. It’s the “penal” aspect – esp. as developed in Calvinist thought – that I can’t live with. Jonathan Edwards’ “Sinners in the Hand of an Angry God” is what I object to, very strenuously. If you’ve never read it, please let me suggest that you do so. It’s readily available online.
@ Nicholas: again, why are you spoiling for a fight? Put your dukes down and pull up a chair and sit for a while, and just listen, discuss, have a laugh or two.
No need for fightin’ words here. We can learn to talk without making accusations, which tend to deep-six the convo.
Pax,
Numo
To our readers on the discussion of hell
As with Calvinism/non-Calvinism debate, hell is an issue that rightly causes passionate debate. Nicholas is presenting a view that has been held by many, including thoughtful theologians, throughout history. On the other hand, even John Stott, a decidedly conservative theologian changed his belief in hell to annihilationism.
Amongst believers in hell , there are varying perspectives. For example, some believe that there are levels of hell, not unlike levels of rewards in heaven. For some, myself included, hell exists as place for those who wanted nothing to do with God in this life and so He created a place for those immortal souls. Torture and pain is reserved for Satan and his minions. Also, there is some comfort in knowing that Hitler and child molesters will one day be punished.
So, in this discussion, please argue vigorously but also understand that the chances of us resolving the conflict on this blog is rather low.
@ dee: I know that Lewis’ The Great Divorce is fiction, but his description of hell as a place/state of being that we create for ourselves seems very near the mark to me.
Nicholas wrote:
This blog has a bit of a different purpose than other Christian blogs. We are concerned that the church today has alienated lots of people. It claims to be missional but does a darn good of turning away lots of people who are in process as they think out their faith or lack thereof.
So, our goal is to make this a place in which everyone, as much as possible, has a voice and can contribute to the debate. You will find atheists, agnostics, and people from different faith traditions here.
Just so you know, I believe Scripture to be infallible and authoritative and I uphold the distinctives found in the Nicene Creed. I believe in “A” issues and “B” issues. The Nicene Creed is filled with “A” issues. But, I believe there can be hearty debate within the church on issues such as gender, creationism, eschatology, etc.
Believe it or not, there were some people in Dallas who thought I was too conservative because I took the Bible so seriously. Now, in this era of Neo-Calvinism, I am found to be too liberal. Go figure!
Nicholas wrote:
“Denied” might be the wrong word, Nic. Argo has not denied the existence of God. He believes Jesus Christ is the Messiah. Why not engage instead of insult?
Even I know I cannot have a relationship with a “book” and disagree with the doctrine of inerrancy. Whichh would mean every single translation and translator through out history has had to be inerrant? Is that even credible?
Ouch Nicholas! Could you maybe reply with less smacking people over the head with texts & sources? You could always DISCUSS these issues, & you could do it in full awareness that there are various views on each topic that have been part of orthodoxy, & still are.
You sound ungracious…not everyone agrees with you, & MAY EVEN have read/know more on the subject than you do.
@ Nicholas:
Jesus Christ is the Son of God, which means He is God. This is a rational statement, and where our agreement ends.
I deny all those doctrines you mentioned on a singular basis: they are not reconcilable according to reason.
I do not claim an epistemology based on contradiction or mystery. If God cannot be argued without resorting to assumptions and conclusions which are mutually exclusive, then He cannot be known as God.
If I may say so, you are condemning me and Numo as non-Christians for doing the same thing you are doing: appealing to Biblical truth via a pre-concieved interpretive standard. The problem is, you don’t seem to realize it.
@ numo:
Yep. Sorry, I am getting rusty on ANE lit. I need to go read it again.
@ Nicholas:
Hi Nicholas – Jude does refer to Non-cannonical (Pseudepigraphical writings) in his letter in the Bible. Jude was likely the brother of Jesus (well, if you are Protestant and can handle Mary having other kids). So, they were being used in the early church, by the early Bible writers and were considered inspired.
I was thinking all the readers here were aware that the women “crushing the head” was referring to Jesus – but it is vague and Jesus doesn’t show up in Gen. 2 to save the day as the other ANE myths tell. The Egyptian strong man, for example, releases the sun from the underworld each morning. The reference to Jesus has the “strong-man” doing nothing for a few thousand years. That differs from other ANE texts where the strong-man is essential to their view of the world from the minute evil arrives (yes, I know Jesus is essential too, but not in a clear, creation-saving-that-instant way).
I disagree with other comments, and I’m “angry, ungracious, and spoiling for a fight?”
@ dee:
Thanks, Dee. I do consider those quoted to be A issues.
Concerning hell, I wanted to respond to the untrue claim that the traditional view of hell is a late medieval invention.
@ Val:
Jude quotes from 1 Enoch, and there may be some other apocryphal quotations or allusions in the NT as well. It doesn’t mean they considered those books outside the Tanakh to be Scripture. The Apostle Paul twice quotes from pagan Greek poets to make a point.
Argo wrote:
Neither do I.
Argo wrote:
Your “reasoning” is unsound.
Anon 1 wrote:
So do JW’s, Oneness Pentecostals, and Mormons, but they each mean something different by it. The Biblical/Christian God is explicitly Trinitarian. And I did not insult.
@ Nicholas:
OK, my apologies, I was very sloppy in my writing about Hell – I was merely attempting to point out that in Christian history there have been many acceptable views of the afterlife, from Hell to Annihilationism to Universalism – some written by well respected Church Fathers.
I wasn’t delving into all the intricacies of these teachings. Yes, Catholicism has a Hell, but it is different from the Protestant Hell – I was just pointing that out. In the Catholic view, many can be “saved” by spending various amounts of time in Purgatory (I am NOT agreeing with this, just noting it), before moving on to Paradise/Heaven, this is very different from the Protestant view, where everyone who has passed on is just hanging out in Heaven or Hell right now, until we all can get judged and then those already passed on at Judgement day can go right back to their previous hang-out place. The early church accepted views on the afterlife such as Annihliationism and Universalism and the Eastern Orthodox church today does not require a belief in Hell (at least the Protestant view of Hell) to be considered an E.O. adherent.
Of course everyone’s view of Hell has been shaped by the Bible, but the Catholic and E.O. Churches have a longer pre-cannonical history and have incorporated various views of Hell from an earlier time, with different writings. The Jews themselves don’t have a view of Hell that would be recognizable to Evangelicals. I was pointing out how unclear the Bible is on these teachings, not giving a detailed account of the teachings. I am not arguing any side, just saying I don’t think someone is a ‘non-Christian’ or lesser Christian just because of a differing view of Hell.
@ Val: no worries – I thought maybe there was something you knew about that i’d never heard/read, and wanted to check it out if so!
@ Val: no worries! Thought maybe I’d missed something and wanted to know more if so.
Cheers
n.
@ Val: yes, Jude cites some pretty questionable things – that’s always given me the willies.
As I’m sure you know, there are a number of books that missed out being in the NT canon by a hair. Some of them are part of the Ethiopian Orthodox NT and other writings, like the Book of Enoch (!!!), but I honestly don’t know how much importance they ascribe to these “extra” books.
@ Val: there’s no way anyone could summarize all that in blog comments, but I though you were very clear about it, given the nature of the medium.
@ Nicholas:
Nicholas, i’m about to get out my ACME UltraFeather with Superfringe and go straight for your feet.
@ Nicholas: it’s how you’ve been doing the disagreeing, not disagreement per se. You’ve been very combative and unwilling to listen, and you’ve been quick to judge and label people as “not Christian.”
This is not the best medium for difficult discussions – in person is better.
What I don’t understand is why you seem to be so angry and quick to judge. Maybe you can help me understand why you feel like you need to come on so strong – I also wonder if you would say things the same way in face to face conversation – ?
@ elastigirl: go for it!
I shall break out the Holy Chocolate in a few minutes…
– Abbess Numo
Nicholas wrote:
Argo’s reasoning is no more “unsound” than any other human that has walked the earth, inculding yours, mine, and every presupposed “great man” of orthodoxy. We all reason as individuals. Just because certain men came together and agreed upon certain points of orthodoxy doesn’t mean they were right or wrong. We each need to assimilate the Truth for ourselves. The Holy Spirit is quite capable of revealing Truth to each individual. We don’t “only” need to come to it by way of orthodoxy.
@ Nicholas:
No, Nicholas, I have a different process for coming to see God than you do. I do not at all reject the Justice, Righteousness, and Holiness of God. IMO, my God is much greater on all three than the one you propose.
Take only Justice. How is it just for a god to let the small creatures S/He made suffer forever because they said, in a tiny window of time, “I want nothing to do with You”? It is completely out of balance to the size of the creature’s impertinence, so it isn’t justice, you know? It is revenge or the attitude of someone who thinks pain is a fine thing or of someone who feels personally threatened by anything that doesn’t choose him. Righteousness and Holiness has little to do with such a character. Maybe “Purity At All Costs”, but that is different and certainly leaves out the Love, which God claims as another one of His/her names.
This is how I see it. As others earlier in comments pointed out, there are verses to support a number of views on the afterlife. When things are not clear in scripture, I look at the world God made, the amazing and not-contradictory-to-God work of His/Her very own hands. I come to a clearer understanding of God by letting a relationship exist between scripture and the world, letting them talk to each other, while I carefully listen and ask the help of the Holy Spirit.
I would not ever say that you are not a Christian but your idea of a narrow harsh god allows you to confidently say that about me. Yet I am a Christian, Nicholas. I love God with all my heart. Thus, it is wrong of you to cast such a judgment on me. IMO, this is only one of the problems that your views bring you.
Nicholas wrote:
Could you clarify? Do you believe that a certain view of “creationism” is an “A” issue or that the points in the Nicene Creed are A issues?
It appears that you have studied this subject. Why do you think that a well respected theologian like Stott would move towards an annihilationist POV?
@ Beakerj:
Very apt, though I wish things were otherwise.
@ Nicholas:
You asked about Ted Bundy. I am fully confident that the Ted in God’s mind when S/He made him, was of a lovely complex and completely good creation. What he became is another thing. But even I, small silly creature that I am, would not want Ted to suffer torture forever. I don’t want that for my abusive Calvinist pastor-father, either. And if I don’t, how much more wouldn’t our God want that?
@ Bridget:
I never liked the unsound reasoning defense. I saw Christians attempt to employ this at an atheist site. It did not go over very well. In the end, faith is a bit of a leap-not devoid of reason but not fully able to be explained in a purely rational sense.
@ dee: I think atheism requires its own “leap of faith,” so to speak…
Feathers, chocolate, and merlot . . .
@ Bridget: I’ll need to abstain from the wine, though a few sips should be ok!
dee wrote:
I meant the points you had quoted from me (“the Trinity, the Ominscience and Foreknowledge of God, the existence of the Soul, Subsittutionary Atonement, and the inerrancy and even infallibility of the Bible”). Those as well as all the points in the Nicene and other three Ecumenical Creeds are A issues.
I affirm Rev. Stott as a brother in Christ. I haven’t had a chance to read any of his writings yet, but I hope to in the future, including on this subject.
@ Bridget:
“Feathers, chocolate, and merlot . . .”
+++++++++++++++++++++++
cheese, and we’re all set. (an espresso and a cigarette and we’d be ultraset)
@ dee:
“unsound” is to “a valid point” as “shrill” is to “assertive”.
@ elastigirl: Indeed.
Many kinds of cheese, s’il vous plait! Ditto for olives. I have a particular weakness for savory things, and well-cured Kalamata olives are something I can pig out on, along with certain cheeses, cured meats and… cheese puffs. Gibbles is my preferred brand. Tasty Cake Candy Cakes are another weakness that’s carried over from childhood. (Very much a regional thing; you can Google if interested.)
No smoking for me, though!
@ elastigirl: i’m a tea person, though a Turkish (or Arabic) coffee would be just the ticket!
@ numo: Now I’m wanting a mixed sushi/sashimi platter…!
For Christmas, I got a 70% chocolate bar with candied ginger chunks. Yummm. I will bring it along with a bottle of old brandy (which I will have to steal from my sissy).
@ numo:
alright, the whole spectrum from stinky to brie.
olives, absolutely. some basil leaves, rosemary and tarragon sprigs. some pepper jelly.
my Palestinian friend introduced me to putting a sprig of sage in along with the tea leaves. extremely aromatic.
@ Nicholas:
I am curious, though, as to why you think I set myself up as judge over God by believing that there is no eternal-torment hell.
@ elastigirl: Yum!!!
Let’s also have some Emmenthal, aged Gouda (varying degrees of aged), the best Cheddars (again, a variety), and… oh gosh, I can’t believe I’m drawing a blank!
@ elastigirl: Sprig of sage: I like! Must try it.
numo wrote:
Remember the elaborate Medieval Angelologies and Demonologies, also developed over many centuries? Talk about building elaborate systems from speculation over minimal sources…
Patrice wrote:
Combine it with “What do I care? I’m SAVED!” and you have “The Abominable Fancy”, a Cosmic version of “I Got Mine, Sucks to Be You.” That’s one result of a Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation once Entropy has done its work over time.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: Elaborate angelologies/demonologies started in the intratestamental [sp/} period – check the Book of Enoch, for one.
Wenatchee the Hatchet has posted in the past about a series of books on development of ideas/popular concepts/theology of the devil and demons. I have them all now – his name is Jeffrey Burton Russell. He starts with ancient Mesopotamia and goes right up to the present time. Good scholarly writing, though a bit of a slog at times. When he began writing the books, he did not believe in a real, personal devil, although he did certainly believe in the existence of evil. His views altered as time went on, along with his research.
You might be interested in his “Lucifer: The Devil in the Middle Ages,” but it really helps to read the preceding books, or at least refer to them while reading this one…
err, “the author’s name is Jeffrey Burton Russell.”
Brain is faster than fingers much of the time.
numo wrote:
And sometimes the “brain” sees things. or turns them around. Like when I saw what you wrote, first thing I wondered was, “What does Brian have to do with anything?”
Just for fun, you can read the so-called Poem of the Righteous Sufferer (title is actually “I Will Praise the Lord of Wisdom”), which might seem *very* familiar to those who know the Psalms of lament, Lamentations, Job, etc. etc.
Intro. and full text are at this link.
enjoy!
@ numo: in other words… the books of the Bible are typical of other literature of the time periods in which they were written. They didn’t exist in a vacuum, but come from their times and places and the people who wrote them down.
This is very different to, say, the Qur’an, which Muslims believe was dictated to Muhammad by the angel Jibreel (Gabriel).
Jewish apocryphal literature also had a big influence on parts of our canon and on the writings of many in the early church. Even Paul knew the Greek classics. The countries of the Mediterranean basin and Fertile Crescent were cosmopolitan, then and now.
@ numo: Though the Qur’an is very much a product of the Arabian Peninsula per culture… still, accepted and believed by diverse peoples around the world.
Much like xtianity in its many forms + the Bible. It was a shock to me to discover that most xtians in the world are neither white nor living in what we refer to as “first world countries.” Most are not at all interested in what goes on among white evangelicals in the US, and have rarely, if ever, been exposed to the names and trends that are featured on this blog.
Many of these churches have been around for about 2,000 years and thus are are elder brothers and sisters, though many of them might not consider American evangelicals to be xtians. Touché!
Nicholas wrote:
I agree with you on everything except the inerrancy of the Bible. But I affirm the infallibility and authority of the Bible. I like to be exacting on that definition. For example, the mustard seed is not the smallest seed in the world. But, in that time and place, it was believed to be so. That is why I do not like to get into that argument. However, the example of the mustard seed is an infallible argument in its ability to bring forth the meaning of faith-a small amount yields a lot.
So, instead of focusing on the exacting definition of the smallest seed, I can get down to business. Many atheist use this as in example of “error.” So, I agree but then ask them if it changes the meaning of what was being said.
When you read Stott, I will be interested to hear what you have to say. I must admit that when someone of his stature goes down that road, it causes me to rethink my paradigm.
@ numo:
“Most are not at all interested in what goes on among white evangelicals in the US, and have rarely, if ever, been exposed to the names and trends that are featured on this blog.”
++++++++++
shhhhh… don’t help the professional Christian profiteers with untapped market ideas.
seeing billboards in Mumbai for the “Friends” tv show & little boys hawking “Harry Potter” books at our car windows was bad enough.
@ Mara: my brain often does that to me, too! I’ve misread certain words for years and years – almost embarrassing to admit. 🙂
@ elastigirl: I think most of said xtians would laugh at them, or just ignore their wares. We’re extremely young whippersnappers by comparison, and have very little understanding of how these people live and what they believe.
Besides, would the profiteers *really* want to be put in their place by xtians from Kerala (in South India, most people there are very dark-skinned), Syria or Ethiopia and Eritrea? I kinda think their “manliness” would shrivel away in the face of the elder bothers and sisters in those places. 😉
Patrice wrote:
Ohhhh yeahhh & Oh Yeah! I remember back in the day when I indulged in spirits, it was Cointreau & Remy Martin cognac. Nectar of the wood nymphs and muses.
@ dee:Well, how could God – in Christ, or before his coming – bombard people with alien ideas that wouldn’t make an sense to them? it would be unloving and besides, nobody would have listened.
Sometimes when I look up at the stars, they *do* look like pinpricks or tiny lights floating in the “vault” of heaven. On clear days and nights, the sky *does* look like half of an overturned crystal dome that covers what I can see of the earth. This – and more – helps make some of the OT more accessible to me. but then, I like to imagine what it would be like to live in different time periods (not that I’d necessarily want to *live* there for real, but if I had a TARDIS, like Doctor Who, well… 🙂 ).
@ Muff Potter: Coffee with cognac… and I don’t even like coffee all that much. 🙂
@ elastigirl: was it the US series (Friends), or an Indian remake?
They *love* to rework our pop culture and run it in their movie musicals, and video/game/software/book piracy is rife. I bet those HP books were printed locally. (Also used to be a big thing in Hong Kong; my dad brought back a few perfect imitations of things like the Oxford Shakesepeare, the huge Webster’s unabridged dictionary, and much more. The only thing different about them were the cheap paper and bindings.)
@ numo:
the US series.
Dear readers in India — I love much about your culture. I wish mine would keep better to its regional bounds.
@ elastigirl: i remember reading about an Indian knockoff of “Seinfeld” that started shooting (over in NJ) when the actual Jerry Seinfeld show 1st hit the big ratings… So all those billboards for the US “Friends” are an after-the-fact thing, most likely. 😉
@ elastigirl: Have you ever watched Indian movie musicals from the 50s, 60s and 70s? I got hooked on older soundtracks about 20 years ago, and even have (almost) note-for-note versions of songs from The Sound of Music… but in Hindi, and with a very Indian twist. the “Do-Re-Mi” song is being played on a harmonium, with a definite Indian rhythm and tabla accompaniment, etc.
They steal everything with panache and flair and make it *completely* their own. It’s really amazing!
@ Nicholas:
Come on Nicholas, you’ve been on this blog before. It’s not the disagreement that’s the problem – it’s the use of (what comes across as)a lecture on your exclusive spiritual rightness instead of adult discourse on the issues at hand, about which there is a range of options.
Please tell me you can tell the difference. It is that rare quality that sets apart blogs like this one & Internet Monk & Jesus Creed.
And now pass the cheese (bin the blue stuff) & the chocolate please guys…
@ numo:
haven’t seen one from that era. Saw Dhadkan (Bollywood musical from 13-14 years ago) — really enjoyed it. A very clean lovestory. Loved the music. Doe A Deer on harmonium & tabla sounds too great. on a YWAM trip many years ago to an Asian country with a large indian population I remember worship songs being played on a synthesizer sitar setting. loved it.
Indian readers, again — I truly hope our discussion isn’t offensive to you. I apologize if it is. I appreciate and respect your culture very much. and your food. sense of style. art and music. gracious hospitality. kind friendship.
Several points:
Most people’s opinions of the faith of anyone, including that of the President, is based on extremely limited knowledge. One who is careful about not imposing his faith on others, or allowing it to overwhelm other factors in critical decisions he must make, will be tagged as not being of faith (or of being of a different faith) by those who have not experienced making decisions in those circumstances. That is why many do not know of the depth of Mr. Obama’s Christian faith. I am aware of it through an acquaintance who is quite close to the president and says he reads the Bible daily and prays more often than that, and often expresses his faith in small ways and small groups. Cf “go into your closet to pray”, versus the pharisee praying on the steps of the temple.
Second, I am a registered Republican who hates to see people of that party misrepresent what people on the other side of issues believe or do — it demeans the policy discussion and makes Republicans seem to value attack over truth. We will lose the next generation if we cannot be truthful about matters.
Third, all of the labeled doctrines are the work of humans. Humans are fallible. For every verse supporting one doctrinal view of an issue, there are verses supporting other doctrinal views. And proof texting from English translations is a fool’s errand, unless you learn to exegete the Hebrew or Greek text in an unbiased manner.
Fourth, there are multiple concepts in the Bible that have, at times, been translated as “hell”. One such is sheol, which more likely means “grave”. Another is “gehenna” which was the name of the dump outside Jerusalem. One must be careful in accepting early translations of the Bible. There are errors in the English translations. The term inerrancy refers to the original manuscripts which are not available to us today.
Fifth, no one, including a friend who worked for Planned Parenthood, is “pro-abortion”; those who oppose state bans on abortion are “pro-choice” and the issue is who decides, the woman and her physician or the state legislature. There are many evangelical Christians who are pro-choice and anti-abortion, as am I. I have had two personal experiences with abortion involving women who chose to have one in circumstances with which I disagreed; in one I would have taken the child and raised it as my own but was not allowed that choice.
Sixth, it is abusive to deny that anyone who claims to follow the Christ is a Christian.
Seventh, most of the social programs in this country were originally conceived by Christians who were seeking to carry out the mandates of Matthew 25, to see that widows, orphans, the hungry, the weak, the homeless, etc., would be provided the means to survive, through the offices of the government of what some would like to call a Christian nation. Attempting to follow the teachings of Christ should not result in one being called unChristian. There is nothing inherently “Christian” about entrepreneurship or free market capitalism; I have been an entrepreneur and I believe in free markets but with limited regulation to protect from exploitation those who cannot protect themselves. Increasingly extreme differences in incomes and wealth will tend to cause instability in any culture, the one point that Marx made that capitalists should consider, no matter how inane any of the rest of his ideas. If those who benefit most from the present economic system do not act to ensure the common good, history teaches they will lose their advantages.
Eighth, we need to be charitable to those who find different answers in the Bible (or in any other context) than we find. Unless we are willing to consider all other viewpoints fairly and on an equal basis with our pet perspective, we will be as close-minded as the Pharisees, and we will lose the opportunity to win others to our point of view and the opportunity to correct our own errors.
Finally, I regularly pray for the people of the community of this blog, and especially for the blog queens, the regulars, and those who report abuse or who have experienced authoritarianism masking as Christianity.
May God bless you all. Thank you for reading.
Well put Arce. It reminds me of what a Menominee elder would speak centuries ago in a longhouse of council. Reason and sanity when all the young bucks want war and bloodshed.
@ Arce: What Muff said.
and thank you.
@ Arce: Not to mention trying to deal with English translations of the major Creeds. there are serious problems there, especially with the use of the English world “hell” in the Nicene Creed. That line is often rendered as “he descended to the dead,” which is more accurate.
Arce wrote:
Really? That would be news to the Apostles who labeled professing Christ followers “false brethren” if they were false teachers. You cannot make words (like “Christian”) mean whatever you want them to mean.
Arce wrote:
We hear this excuse often. But if you believed that an unborn child was an actual human person, then you wouldn’t be “pro-choice.” Would you support parents’ rights to have post-birth abortions?
Arce wrote:
And this is dishonest. Planned Parenthood in particular is an abortion seller. That is where it gets its revenue apart from government funding. Abby Johnson, who once worked for PP, stated that one of these reasons she began to have second thoughts was the PP’s desire to increase the abortions they performed, not decrease them.
And it’s not just Planned Parenthood. Straight from the horse’s mouth: “Every Reason for an Abortion Is a Good Reason”: http://rhrealitycheck.org/article/2013/07/15/every-reason-for-an-abortion-is-a-good-reason/
@ Nicholas : ok, you know better than this. Your comments have become redundant – name-calling and insults included.
I have no more time or patience for this. You seriously need to chill.
Post birth abortions could be right around the corner, along with euthanasia of elderly, terminally ill, mentally disabled, at first, suggested but voluntary, then mandated, (think Social Security, vaccines, etc.) Right around the corner might come 10 years from now, perhaps 20, but what if it comes 5 years from now? I’m thinking, define elderly, terminally ill, mentally disabled. Is it Belgium that has already ok’d post birth abortion under “certain” circumstances?
p.s., although it’s still true that one can refuse vaccines for religious reasons. Some vaccines are wonderful, (tetanus, cholera, rabies..) others, not so sure.
@ Nicholas:
We have moved from “they shall know you [as a Christian]] by your love” to “they shall know you are a Christian when I say you are a Christian”.
This is “saving faith”: the categorical right of one group of people to define the lives of others. Nicholas is fully convinced that his own interpretive assumptions are a full on divine revelation, which means he speaks for God. This automatically makes everyone who disagrees with him a heretic…which means unsaved, Which means non-Christian. This is why he doesn’t blush at calling into question your relationship with God despite the fact that he knows nothing or almost nothing about you. YOU don’t really matter. You are a function of his subjective orthodoxy or you don’t really get to exist as a person God cares about.
This means again that saving faith is really nothing more than his definition of doctrinal purity. That is, your profession of faith is only real when it passes Nicholas’s subjective “sound doctrine” smell test.
And this is how men replace God. And you.
@ RB:
These false, straw man arguments do no favors to the anti-abortion movement. No one argues for a parent to have the right to kill a child following birth except for some extremists who advocate for following OT law to the letter (stoning the disobedient child) — the extreme dominionist fringe.
@ Nicholas:
There is a difference between labeling someone as a false teacher and denying that that person is a Christian. If you are a teacher, I would probably label you a false teacher from your posts here! But I would not deny that you have made a commitment to follow Christ, rather, that you are not doing it well and should not teach!
@ Arce:
Amen, Arce. None if is can possibly be in a position to judge absolutely someone else’s relationship with God. We can judge their words an ideas, but we cannot extend this to assuming we can decide their salvation.
@ Arce:
Again, this is a lie. In addition to the examples RB gave, Peter Singer, a man with a tenure at Princeton and a national award from the Australian gov’t advocates infanticide. He is not fringe given his standing in the US and Australia. Another example is Francesca Minerva and her coauthor. To say that nobody advocates this is a bald-face lie and you know it.
And if you don’t support a mother’s choice for post-birth abortion (which I never said you did), they why not? Is an unborn child not fully human?
And yes, Belgium now allows euthanasia for children.
@ Argo:
Orthodoxy is objective. It is based on Revelation. And you have no problem arguing that your own home-brew antitrinitarian open theism is true and orthodox Christianity is false. Then you resort to subjectivism to condemn me for arguing that my belief is right and others are wrong. So you are shown once again to be a hypocrite.
@ Arce:
I said they labeled them as false *brethren*, as in “false Christians.”
@ Nicholas:
Hi Nicholas,
Even revelation from God, Himself cannot automatically be declared objective. In order for any idea to be objective it must be measured (vetted) against a standard of TRUTH which ALL, not just “saved”, self-aware individuals can inherently apprehend and observe as a function of their being. I maintain that this standard is human life, because everything you do and know, including God’s revelation, is predicated on the existence of YOU. Which means that any idea which we would declare objective must affirm the inherent moral value of human beings and/or be efficacious to the furthering of man’s life.
This of course means that Reformed ideas like Total Depravity and Original sin cannot be objectively true because they deny that the only frame of reference man has for perceiving truth, his SELF/his life, is an utter failure at its existential root (the root of mans very self).
In other words, saying “God said so” does not make your ideas objective. Saying “the bible said so” or “the bible is inerrant” does not make your ideas objective.
You are right in saying that I believe I am right in my assumptions.
The difference however between you and me is that I do not declare people apostates and unsaved (not Christians) when they do not accept my particular interpretations.
@ Arce:
He attended Jeremiah Wrights church for 20 years. Have you listened to that guys older sermons? Hating whitey is Christian?
@ Nicholas:
Please provide a link that is not a biased source for such statements of alleged fact.
Also, Obama is as much into controlling/micromanaging us as the Neo Cal’s and fundys are with their legalism. %They are cut from the same cloth.
@ Anon 1:
I have listened to many that are fairly mainstream evangelicalism, and a very few that are off the deep end, the latter near the end of his tenure. The guy was losing it near the end of his tenure. And BO was not there much after his election to the Senate. Got to be fair or lose credibility and you are losing yours.
Arce wrote:
You have made it clear that you are always right and everyone else wrong. I am not a right wing or left wing person. I am libertarian and would not force my views on anyone. Obama’s daughers were baptized there and that church was very much involved in his election. Of course when left wing churches do it, it is ok. You are very good at rewriting history for the left wing. I happen to get the DNC talking points from a friend and you are always on target.
@ Nicholas:
I don’t know what “open theism” is. It would be hard for me to advocate it then, one would think.
Can you tell me what it is? Then I’ll be in a better position to deny or concede your accusation. I do admit that I am very fond of Pelagius,and would say I am even more of a Pelagian than Pelagius was. LOL Is open theism anything like that?
Nicholas wrote:
What does “Orthodoxy is objective. It is based on Revelation” mean?
I’m no Dominionist by any stretch of the imagination, that one kind of fell right out of the sky, LOL.
@ Anon 1:
I do not get the DNC talking points. And I am a registered Republican, libertarian on many issues, conservative on a majority, and progressive on a few. But I also know the value of truth, and do not accept biased reporting from any side of any issue. If you only listen to and cite biased sources, your thinking becomes untrustworthy. Got to stick to the middle road on sources of information and weigh everything as to whether it is a biased report or not. There are many young people who are rejecting evangelical Christianity due to its tendency toward biased reporting and extremist positions. Similarly, there are many who are rejecting Republican politics for the failure to do anything but attack, attack, attack. We must adhere to the truth, both in faith matters and in polity, or we will become irrelevant.
Wow, the flames are going past the roof now? Anyone else hot in here?!
[crickets]
Moving right along…
Can we switch the conversation to the issue at hand: free will and suffering. Dee started this and now Dee wants to finish this. Forgive me for my initial lack of sensitivity.
I am reeling at the moment. I just found out that a priest that I admired admitted to pedophilia. Thanks to an alert reader. I am so sad for the ones who were hurt and mad at myself that I did not follow this man’s life.
@ dee: are you certain that it is the same man? Neither name is uncommon in Italian communities. I’d double check to be sure.
@ numo:
I did. It is the same name in the exact same location and same leader of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Movement. It has nothing to do with Catholicism. The Baptists, etc have the same problems. This one is personal and I am sad. I loved the meeting he ran.
It just goes to prove that leaders are just as susceptible to terrible sin. I think i should get one of those bumper stickers that says “Question authority.”
dee wrote:
I’m sorry to hear it.
@ Nicholas:
Thank you. I think I am going to write about this. What happens when someone you admire is found to be a pedophile?
@ dee:.
I don’t know.
I like to know who’s in my midst (for my kids’ sake). I periodically check out the registered sex offenders’ list for the city where we live as well as the cities our church draws from. I saw someone from my childhood there that I no longer have any connection with, a family friend maybe 10 years older than me. He had helped out in my church’s youth group when I was 11. Took my breath away. Even so, not much surprises me anymore.
@ dee:
It hasn’t happened with anyone I admire yet. The closest thing for me has been men I once admired (like Al Mohler) failing to do the right thing when it comes to the abuse of others. But I imagine it would be painful if any of the people I deeply admire or respect turned out to be a pedophile or other sex criminal.
If someone I admired turned out to be a pedophile, I think I would pray for his genuine repentance. This repentance would entail full confession, pleading guilty in the court of law, and accepting the sentence given in the court. It entail him recognizing and accepting that he can never be around children again, and in general can never be invested with the trust that people would have given before for anything. And if he claims to be a Christian and claims to have repented before God, he will still (if genuinely repentant) accept his full prison sentence and the rest, and accept that the place where he should be ministered to is from behind bars. If he was a minister (as in this case) he will resign from the ministry and recognize that he can never be a minister in any way, shape, or form ever again (and he should be defrocked, removed, and excommunicated by others regardless of whether he does or doesn’t).
In addition to praying, I hope I would be publicly calling for this person’s confession, repentance, guilty plea, and acceptance of the permanent consequences of his sins.
But more importantly, I would pray for the victims and do what I can to support them.
@ dee:
Dee,
Dreadful news. I understand how you feel. It was the same with me when Brent “outed” CJ. The guilt is maddening, but it is not your moral failure, it is his. Unless willfully complicit, you are never an extension of another person’s sin. If you’d known, you’d have never turned a blind eye. We all know this.
What you do and think about this person will depend on how he chooses to address his problem now that he has admitted it, I suppose.
If God is truly determinist and free will does not exist. Then there is only one sinner in the universe…
I’ve been too busy to read the blog much lately, so I know I’m late to the game on this, but here is a sermon from Sinclair Ferguson that I’ve found helpful while dealing with a personal tragedy and suffering. The title is “When What You’ve Always Dreaded Actually Happens”
http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.asp?speakerWithinSource=&subsetCat=&subsetItem=&mediatype=&includekeywords=&exactverse=&keyword=Dr.%5ESinclair%5EB.%5EFerguson&keyworddesc=Dr.+Sinclair+B.+Ferguson&currsection=sermonsspeaker&AudioOnly=false&SpeakerOnly=true&keywordwithin=Dread&x=-458&y=-595