“Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working.” Unknown link
I am sure that Bent groaned when he saw my title for this post. Bent, along with Paul Petry link, have admirably held their tongues for many years before speaking out about the circumstances surrounding their very public firing from Mars Hill. I have divided this post into three parts: the history, Bent's reasons for silence and Bent's views on suffering and purpose. We are grateful that Bent chose to publish his views on TWW.
Background of Bent Meyer's firing from Mars Hill by Mark Driscoll
Today's post is written by Bent Meyer, who, along with Paul Petry, was fired by Mark Driscoll of Mars Hill in 2007. For a number of years, both of them maintained their silence. This was extraordinary, in light of the very public, verbal abuse (Dee's opinion) they suffered at the hands of Mark Driscoll. What was that abuse? One year ago, we wrote about it in a post: Fired Mars Hill Elder Breaks His Silence in which Bent Meyer spoke of his experience.That post was one of the most widely read posts in the history of TWW since Bent had remained silent until he wrote his post on TWW. There had been much interest expressed in the media and evangelical circles regarding the circumstances surrounding this action.
Mark Driscoll, years ago, claimed that he believed that churches should have "real elders" that could discipline, and even fire, the lead pastor link. Then, Driscoll appeared to turn his back on his expressed belief when he decided that he no longer wished for such rigid oversight. In that post we included this comment by The Seattle Times.
They questioned the bylaws' granting of indefinite terms to a select group of "executive elders," which currently includes Lead Pastor Jamie Munson, Preaching Pastor Mark Driscoll, and three others. Executive elders serve "indefinitely until resignation, death or replacement," according to the bylaws; they may also be removed by a vote of the church board of directors, including the executive elders. Driscoll is a former Seattle Times contributing Faith & Values columnist.
Some members also lamented the loss of Petry and Meyer, challenged their firings, and questioned whether dissent was being quashed and a "culture of fear and elitism" was being perpetuated…"
Bent Meyer and Paul Petry courageously, and quietly, took their concerns about this consolidation of power to Driscoll and other leaders. I bet that our readers can imagine just how well that went! For most of us, we took our abuse on the chin and got out of Dodge. Bent Meyer and Paul Petry had to endure a very public critique which was covered in the media. Over the years, a number of blogs, including TWW, picked up the story. We were shocked when we read about some of the things that Driscoll said.
Here is an example of what these two had to put up with. Mark Driscoll's bloviating was aimed at Bent and Paul.
Here are two other videos.
Please read Fired Mars Hill Elder Breaks His Silence to get a fuller picture of this sordid tale. It is also pertinent to the discussion at hand to understand that the Deb and I had no dog in this hunt. From afar, we observed, and listened to, Driscoll's statements. Long ago, we came to the same conclusion that Bent expressed in that post.
As to my motives, I want Mark’s best. In my opinion he is a very troubled man. He is caught in his own hell. The consequence, of course, is the influence he has on others, which is mixed.
Bent is a skilled counselor. We highly recommend him and link to his practice, Paradigm Counseling, on our blog roll. Deb and I commend Bent for the thoughtfulness and care he exhibited in dealing with what we consider to be abuse. Dee would not have been so quiet.
As Bent discusses his thoughts on suffering, please remember that he does so with a difficult life experience under his belt.
Bent explains his silence.
I was asked a long time ago, why I have not defended myself from the accusations Mark D. leveled at me during and well after my trial and dismissal as a pastor and director of Mars Hill Church. My place in the body of Christ was and is to employ the wisdom I have been given to participate with the broken to help with the possibility of their healing. This has required my own healing and growth first, to become an advocate for the wounded – thus, my silence.
MD charged me with four offenses, three of which were "found to be not credible" by the members of the MH "Elder Investigation Team." The only charge that stuck was, "An unhealthy mistrust of senior leadership." I absolutely admit to the charge, except for the "unhealthy" part. I have no knowledge of what, if anything, the church elders did to hold MD accountable for his false accusations or his violation of the ninth Commandment, "Thou shalt not bear false witness…" — Exodus 20:16. However, after the by-laws of the church were changed, MD was no longer legally accountable to the elders anyway – which appears to be what he wanted.
A couple of months after I left the church, MD asked for a meeting with me for a "Shaking of the hand of fellowship." This sounded like an opportunity for MD to act out the appearance of reconciliation without substance, but I thought perhaps he may have come to some recognition or been confronted of his error. My hope was not realized, while my caution was.
I agreed to meet with MD, but only if a witness was present. At the meeting, MD made more unfounded accusations in the presence of my witness. I typed a transcript immediately after the meeting to contemporaneously record what had transpired. I gave both MD and the witness opportunity to correct any mistakes or misunderstandings. I was asked by the witness why I did nothing to refute MD's accusations, since the witness did not know me to be the way MD had described my character, manner or theological persuasion. My answer: "It wouldn't do any good. There is no one to listen. It is better to let MD talk and dig his own hole, with his own words." That has proven true. MD cannot escape what is heard and enters the public domain. Unfortunately, since Paul Petry's excommunication and my dismissal, many, perhaps all, of the staff at MHC have been made to sign binding non-disclosure agreements as provisions of employment. Thus, little of MD's behavior and attitudes, off mic, are likely to be exposed for some time.
Reports come to me fairly regularly that another staff member has been removed or jumped ship at MHC. It appears to be a revolving door. I attribute this as the consequence of the elders who once said they would take a stand and oppose the ratification of the new by-laws which MD proposed, and which were adopted seven years ago. Those new by-laws changed the church polity from peer elder rule to a hierarchy modeled after corporate structuring.
The elders at the time who had legal authority gave in to the demands and relinquished their authority. They were stripped of their authority as directors of the church, and became, technically, not elders at all. They became employees with no more authority than to parrot what comes down from the boss at top of the pyramid. The elders brought onto themselves the consequence of unbridled corporate management. Regarding trust – they read the same proposal regarding the by-laws I did. It was clear, then, that trust without accountability, was not in order. Accountability and parity needed to be preserved. Instead, intimidation prevailed.
Regarding my submission: It is not healthy in the long run to be stuck as a victim of another's harming. The journeyer must find a way out of a wood, lost, as an experienced survivor who has found meaning -operating with hope and purpose – rather than hopeless fatalism. Thus, my submission is an attempt to speak to some in your audience whom are part of the body that is drawn to heal the broken in an intimate costly way.
Further, some of the wounded will, perhaps, find a glimmer of hope beyond their affliction. There are people who will listen and walk with them. There are people who will invite the wounded to lean on their hope and resilience until hope, purpose and meaning are realized.
Further still, there are those who harm, that finally are arrested with realization of the harm they have done, but have no idea how to be different or how to face their shame. Those that employ shaming expose an enormous intolerance to face their own shame.
This becomes a question for all of us: Is there a community that will walk with them; vision with them and skill them to realize a life that lives out the fruit of the Spirit in person, generously (Gal. 5:22-23). I believe there is, but maybe they don't know it is there.
A difficult calling into suffering for a purpose
by Bent Meyer
I have not written for a long time, though the desire to communicate themes that have been brewing has been there, but not the right time.
I have been listening and thinking about the suffering experienced in my community. About, how God, for unfathomable reasons, which cannot be known without revelation, allows the entire range of evils to continue to exist. I think about the laments of scripture, in Psalms and elsewhere. My imagination is exhausted trying to join those in Hebrew 11 who suffered unimaginable torture. What did their survivors continue to experience? Consider, what is it like to live for most if not all of being sawn in half, before bleeding out? What is it to experience immolation or, crushed in exhaustion and your abdomen torn out by a lion, for the voyeuristic delight of population of onlookers – consider Polycarp[1]. What do family member experience? How are their terrors experienced, confronted and resolved?
What is it to be tormented by a hyperactive sympathetic nervous system, an out of control flight or fight response system, brought about by, early attachment deficient or traumas of various kinds? What is it to live 24/7 in such a body?
What is it to love another deeply for the wholeness of personhood that was, while their personality is deteriorating, or significantly alter by injury, disease, or attempts to avert repeated trauma with unconscious adaptive processes that make a smaller and smaller world for them?
What is it to inhabit the body of one experiencing pervasive discrimination, from family, community, or culture that defines who one is; their capacity, trustworthiness, or desirability? What is it to have a mind normalize oppressive and discriminatory experience? What is it to experience oneself and neighbors limited by intentional or thoughtless accessibility to opportunity withheld?
What is it to be assaulted by spiritualized platitudes, in the midst of confusing pain, or notions of conformity to traditions that is portray as absolute and/or misinformed/eisegetic interpretations of texts to gain power and control over a population? What is it to be conflicted by fear of a Wrathful God, who has already declared a person kept and safe? What is it to feel condemned one declaring one is bound by unsubmissive sin, because they had a mind of their own, which is not the pastor's?
The task God has appointed for me and others, as best I can discern, is to journey with those that come into my circle of care from such environs. It is to listen, imagine, and enter into what is experienced inside their skin and mind, while simultaneously keeping myself in the world I discern to be real.
It is to be closely influenced by wise people to support or challenge my appraisal of reality. This is necessary, because I am affected by my own faulty notion and infected by the wounds of those I journey with.
I know some of my own anxiety and fear; the experience of panic in the context of short term abandonment, lost in the woods, heaving nausea, uncontrolled gyrations, impact, silence, warm blood dribbling from a wound, etc., these experiences and more create bridges of empathy to approach the experience of others. Yet, they are teachers of what I have not experienced. They allow me to vicariously learn. This is the price I pay; I am affected and altered by the experiences of those I am with. It is disorienting at times, thus the need for wise men and women to disclose my challenges, poverty, perceptions and my joined grief. Thus, I am taught and grow. More importantly I am held by a small community of kind and trusted people.
George Kunz speaks of many who come to serve at L' Arche, as Seattle community of active faith,
"they (helpers) will stay in our communities, because they have discovered that they are poor, that we all have a wound, that we are all vulnerable, that there is a broken part in each of us, .. that we all have masks and a system of protection, hiding our vulnerability,…that inside all of us, there is a place where anger hides, and fear, and depression, and maybe broken sexuality, a capacity to live and lock ourselves up into a world of dreams. That is the reality of all of us. We have a handicap. That's all of us… some it's more visible; others it's less. But the reality is there. We come to serve the poor. We discover, after a while, that we are the poor."[i]
Knowing my own poverty is the beginning of knowing others.
The task with those I journey is to enter their experience and how it shapes their world view and subsequent behavior, so together we can find a way to walk out of a wood lost, to become oriented to a journey of hope, meaningful relational experiences and constructive effect on others in the context of faith and mystery.
I am reminded of mystery Job was confronted with. He had no idea why the hardship and loss he experienced happened with such overwhelming fury. His community was of no help, yet God was right in His confidence in Job, he would never give up on his creator to find an illusitory god for comfort and an explanation. Job wrestled with God, blamed God, and pleaded with God. He wanted God to end his life, since the pain exceeded what he knew his limited to be. Ultimately he stopped and said, I don't know. I am a creature of dust and of your mercy! Even my best offerings are reduced to ashes. My eyes have seen this: you are beyond. You cannot be reduced to my capacity to know. I yield to you in every way.
Job 42:1-6
Then Job answered the Lord and said: “I know that you can do all things, and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted. God said earlier, ‘Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’ Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know. Again God earlier said, ‘Hear, and I will speak; I will question you, and you make it known to me.’ I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees you; herefore I despise myself, and repent in dust and ashes.”[2]
I don't know what specific purposes God has for suffering. Little is revealed, except for the possibility of learning, growth and community responsiveness as prescribed by Jesus, in the context of being dependent creatures of a mysterious God. Maybe this is what Satan was to learn from his bet with God (Job 1). God cannot be reduced to be taken in and defined by a created being. God can be known by self revelation, but not by reduction.
I think Paul picks this up in Ephesians 3:8–10:
"To me, though I am the very least of all the saints, this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to bring to light for everyone what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places."
There is some sort of revelator process in our suffering. There is purpose in suffering to learn and becoming a people of influence for good by doing no wrong to others, (Rom 13:8-10). Helpers represent something of God in healing, support, and promoting equity – summed up in love. Thus, creatures we know little about might learn something of resilient loyalty to the singular creator of all, even in overwhelming difficulty and pain. This gives me courage in my small attempt at joining Jesus in overcoming evil with love, as faulty as my love is in my own suffering and joining the suffering of others. There is purpose not yet revealed.
Many, who have submitted their life experience, are victims of great harm. Their anger is real. Their stories need to be heard and entered as one's own. The sorrow for some is being held in purposelessness as perpetual victims rather than survivors with hope and trust. They are not alone. There is a greater purpose, presently not revealed. There will be justice, partly now, fully then. Presently modeled after God's allowance to deal with the iniquities of David's lineage From 2 Sam. 7:14
"I will discipline him (the perpetrator) with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men…"
Yet, even the perpetrator is poor and likely has come out of a history of neglect and harm. Will there be compassion when the perpetrator falls and is alone in his nakedness? After all, those that are exposed are often only propped up by people that have not yet seen the king is naked. Will there be those that will heal the naked self stricken?
It's likely a good time to agree with Jesus; to explore and actively experience the many facets of loving God, who is cloaked in mystery and our suffering neighbor's as they and we journey life's short course, until fullness is known beyond the grave.
- [1] http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/polycarp-lightfoot.html
- [2] ESV Translation
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[i] Kunz, George, (1998). The Paradox of Power and Weakness, New York, , SUNY Series
Lydia's Corner:Isaiah 37:1-38:22 Galatians 6:1-18 Psalm 65:1-13 Proverbs 23:24
Thanks for sharing this!
Like many of you, I am still processing my experiences and a huge paradigm shift. Earlier today, at someone else’s request, I was reading a popular Christian book emphasizing roles of authority – and it definitely triggered a negative reaction. I had to put it down. It definitely reminded me of Mark Driscoll. So over it.
Although I was only hit twice, my therapist says that the emotional abuse I suffered was severe even by Child Protective Services standards. I still had some assistance from my parents, but most of my family abandoned me while I was still a teenager. And as an adult, I watched helplessly as my husband’s mental illness become worse and worse without even the comfort of an accurate diagnosis because he would never seek help. So yes, I do understand very well paragraphs 3, 4 and 5 of Brent’s essay. Unfortunately I was met with harsh judgement when I attended a Vision Forum home church, and a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. So I also understand paragraph 7 all too well.
While I still struggle with issues such as a hyperactive nervous system, I am doing well and living a completely normal life. But I can no longer attend church. I was very calm after I survived a near-fatal car accident last week with no injuries. I suffered no emotional trauma and have no trouble driving, but the thought of going to church is terrifying enough to keep me awake at night.
Something that Brent does not acknowledge is when the evil/abuse is perpetuated by believers. And worse well known believers who make their living teaching Christ. We are not talking about unbelievers perpetuating abuse here as in the book of Hebrews, etc.
I don’t agree with his conclusions about suffering at the hands of long time professing believers who seek to be public teachers and seek followers. I think his conclusions are dangerous and perpetuate MORE abuse of others. Can we learn from it? Of course. But there is NOTHING Holy about it. Our job is the warn others. Whether they listen or not is up to them.
Anon 1, I’m not sure I’m seeing what you’re seeing in Brent’s words. Could you elaborate? Is it that he believes that God will not waste our sufferings at the hands of others but will help us to grow from them? Or that he reminds us to acknowledge that those who have wronged us are often dealing with their own stinky life baggage which clouds their better judgment? I think about some I know who got in over their heads in ministry – they had certain expectations, got stuck in the rut and kept moving in it. I pity them but also see how I have been just like them as I am still leaving my own ruts behind. Then there are those who are more egregious and manipulative and aggressive and abusive and greedy and outright BAD. I can’t seem to muster much sympathy for them. So thankful for Wartburg Watch. 🙂
Is it Brent or Bent? Inquiring minds want to know.
Terri Anne, yes, mental illness can also be a factor. I was engaged to a guy in college who had serious psych issues. He could be very manipulative and couch it in Bible terms to shame me into going along with his ideas. He was claiming to lead me spiritually while his own inner life was in complete shambles. I finally saw the light and cancelled the wedding. That was 30 years ago. He is no longer a professing Christian and has divorced twice. I have absolutely no bitterness toward him. I wish him well.
Yes, it is Bent, not Brent. That’s why Brent didn’t seem right when I was typing my comments!
I added an R to Teri Anne’s name too.
Bent,
We were so honored when you broke your silence on our blog. Hoping that 2014 will be a great year for you and your family.
Blessings!
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Virginia Knowles wrote:
If spiritual abuse is good for us then perhaps churches should advertise it as a path to Holiness and helping others. But that would not attract followers, would it? Of course we can grow from suffering but that does not make suffering good. There is much suffering NOTHING good comes from. My focus is that the suffering we are talking about on this blog is perpetuated by long time professing believers who use Jesus for evil. To suggest their using Jesus for evil is good for us is something I cannot fathom or accept. I will never accept it. What was the point of the cross/resurrection? Should we not be concerned about rotten fruit and warn others? Or should we stay silent?
I have actually heard people in abusive/shepherding cult type churches tell those abused it was good for them because it helps others and helped them grow. They cannot see their own cognitive dissonance when they continue to support those who abuse. It is their normal. It is becoming the norm as we continue to excuse celebrity spiritual abusers.
@ Anon 1:
I think Brent is saying that it is hard to see the value of suffering on this side of eternity, but that we will see the point of our suffering when we reach heaven. I do not think he means that we should tolerate suffering from abuse for supposedly our own good or that we should allow abuse to continue if we can stop it.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
It is Bent.
I will write more later. But in the past few months I came to a realization that parts of evangelicalism is going to be like Mormonism in one unique way. Take Mark Driscoll….I came to realize through personal events with one person I knew that evangelicals are going to be blind to the wolves that exist. Evangelicals cannot discern or will choose not to. Why is that? Evangelicalism needs its idols. In order for it to thrive it needs people to embrace, hold high and bow down to their God. Earlier in my life I saw Mormons who would worship Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. I was amazed as to how many in the LDS community put both individuals on a pedestal and worshipped them. They excused, believed the best, ignored facts, and believed what they wanted to believe about both individuals.
That is what Mark Driscoll has become to many evangelicals….an idol. Many evangelicals need idols…they are addicted to them. And with the recent celebrity culture that has been created the problem has become worse. Being a celebrity Christian means that you never have to take ownership or repent of your sins. I present Mark Driscoll for that claim.
I would love to be proven wrong. I would love to wipe away what I wrote above. But I don’t think Mark Driscoll will do the right thing despite the fact that messes, mishaps, mistakes and moral failures are incredible opportunities for the Gospel to shine in a crushed and broken world. For all the claims that Mark Driscoll has about the Gospel and faith… a sincere and deep repentance for what Bent and Paul and others had endured must be done. If Mark Driscoll is going to be sincere about repentance then he will do it in a way that puts his reputation, finances and church on the line. Will that happen…? Personally I doubt it. But I would love to be proven wrong.
In my own life I have done the hard work in repentance and reconciliation. It is not easy. I did it with a large volume of people and in the process put my name, reputation and finances on the line. It was the hardest thing I done and the most beautiful thing I have done. And that is what is sad about Mark Driscoll and many parts of modern reformed theology. I have never seen a movement of people who are so spectacular about their failures to do the right thing. In many ways they snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in what could be a win/win situation.
@Anon 1, thank you for what you expressed, I’m in agreeance.
Thank you Bent for writing and breaking your silence. I still have friends who are very involved in MH, and it does concern me. My own church has brought MD in for many men’s breakfast/discussions, and that concerns me greatly. I continue to pray for discernment all around.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Bent by Matchbox 20
And if I fall along the way, pick up me and dust me off
And if I get too tired to make it, be my breath so I can walk
” I think Brent is saying that it is hard to see the value of suffering on this side of eternity, but that we will see the point of our suffering when we reach heaven.”
I don’t buy into that sort of Jesus. We will know the value of our suffering FOR Christ. So are all these people who are spiritually abused by their church/pastor suffering FOR Christ? This makes no sense since the abuse was done in the Name of Christ. But I can see the need to appeal to mystery here because it is inexplicable: Christians with power causing other Christians to suffer. Explain that to an atheist.
Very well put, Eagle.
Eagle wrote:
Look at how he mis-handled the Mefferd/plagiarism stuff. He doesn’t strike me as the sort who will own up to mistakes or sins and apologize, or not apologize sincerely.
Driscoll reminds me more of a politician or oily used car salesman than a preacher.
The few times I have heard him issue an apology, it came off not so much that he was genuinely sorry he hurt someone or did something wrong, only that he was trying to get the complainer to shut up and go away.
Sadly most seminaries and churches are not following the Bible when selecting elders. The selection of elders indicates that an elder to have many years of expeience in raising children. The early assemblies rarely dealt with buildings. Being a good manager of their household meant experience, wisdom, and gentleness with kids,teens,etc.
@ Anon 1:
Life is difficult enough without adding unnecessary suffering at the hands of an abusive pastor or spouse. Christians are best advised to leave their abusive situation rather than stay to be chastised or to gain spiritual insight. And it is the duty of Christians to stand up for victims, and if it is within their power, to stop the abuse.
Brent never asked for Mark Driscoll to be abusive towards him, but now that the abuse happened he is trying to find meaning in his suffering by thinking of how it has helped him become a better counselor. But many times, suffering seems to have no purpose until we reach heaven when we will understand better.
Please guys!!! Its Bent
Bent
Bent
Bent
Bent
NOT BRENT
but Bent…
In Romans 16:17, Paul speaks about this, as does Micah 6, and so many other verses. I can appreciate Bent’s trust and hope in the righteousness and sovereignty of God, and his recognition that God can make good come out of evil, but I, too, am concerned that the Reformed tack can involve extrapolation way beyond what God would have us as believers do about suffering, and that the tack often causes worse suffering. Sure, there are times we are to suffer as Christians, Philippians 1:29, but Paul also tells slaves to gain their freedom if given the opportunity. Judgement is supposed to begin at church, it is not to be a place for spiritual abusers to use God’s name in vain.
On a related issue at Spiritual Sounding Board:
Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll to partner with Corban University and Western Seminary and host university classes at the Mars Hill Bellevue church campus.
And MD will be teaching: “But wait – – – guess who will be one of the teachers? Driscoll, who is the founding, preaching, and vision pastor for Mars Hill Church adds, “As the father of a child on the threshold of college, I am thrilled to be part of teaching a one-year undergraduate Bible program. As a graduate of Western Seminary, I am very excited to host this top notch theological program and to be in the classroom investing in students committed to serving Jesus’ mission through the local church.”
http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/12/26/mark-driscolls-mars-hill-bellevue-campus-to-host-university-classes-in-fall-of-2014/
There seems to be an acceptance of the false idea that elders should have and exercise authority over people and churches. Good people like Bent seem to only want the authority to be used appropriately. I do not think that this fulfills the words of Christ in Mark 10.
42 Jesus called them over and said to them, “You know that those who are regarded as rulers of the Gentiles dominate them, and their men of high positions exercise power over them. 43 But it must not be like that among you. On the contrary, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 44 and whoever wants to be first among you must be a slave to all. 45 For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life—a ransom for many.”
Mark Driscoll will ruin himself with his own words – we just need to give him enough time. Bent (is that short for Benton? Bent would be an extremely odd name to have here in the UK, it’s slang for homosexual)was wise to keep his mouth shut. I had a similar experience with a co-worker (similar only in this way)who took a violent dislike to me, & the longer I let her spout off in front of others without interrupting, the more obvious it became that she had created a Beakerj of her own imagination, to whom she assigned all kinds of terrible motives never actually entertained in the real Beakerj.
Mark’s issue (one of them) is that he just can’t keep quiet. He is compulsive about sharing his ‘wisdom’ & it will come back on him, even more than it has.
Bent asked, “Will there be compassion when the perpetrator falls and is alone in his nakedness? After all, those that are exposed are often only propped up by people that have not yet seen the king is naked. Will there be those that will heal the naked self stricken?”
I’m thinking of two types of perpetrators. These aren’t the only kind, of course.
First, just hypothetically, think of my imaginary friend Fred. He has known and loved a close family-member-perp we’ll call Q for many years. Q has been diagnosed as mentally ill– likely bipolar. Outbursts of screaming, throwing things, panic, or sobbing are followed– sometimes even the same day– by periods of normality, as if nothing had happened. But Q never, ever apologizes. If Fred asks for an apology, another outburst may come. Q says and does many hurtful things to Fred. Yet Fred is constrained by love for Q, and doesn’t think of himself as an abuse victim. Fred has compassion and attempts to heal the “self-stricken” when Q falls– which is often.
On the other hand, Fred has some friends and many former friends who follow a pastor-perp’s hurtful life and doctrine. Threats to punch someone out or to strew bodies behind the Martian bus have been heard. MD has said or done nothing to hurt Fred personally. Yet Fred is constrained by love for the Church, and thinks of many as victims of abusive teachings. Fred cannot possibly ask MD for an apology. But MD will apologize often– in a manner of speaking. “Mistakes were made” (MD, 12/18/13). He may fall out of popularity some day. He may fall into scandal– and it may take something really big. But Fred doubts whether Driscoll will ever “fall” in the sense of coming to know that he is “wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked” (Rev 3:17). Fred guesses that compassion and healing for the “self-stricken” MD, if he falls, (which will be only once) will need to come from those who know and love him personally.
@ Anon 1:
I agree too Anon 1 – it is very common to hear “I don’t know why God let that (insert whatever tragedy) happen…” regardless whether it is a Tsunami or a rotten pastor leading people astray – and I too think that is faulty fatalistic reasoning.
Notice the type of Calvinism Driscoll preaches. He preaches a Calvinism that is heavy on “you are evil and can’t discern good from evil” (N.T. Wright doesn’t preach this type of Calvinism by comparison). Once he has his followers believing they can’t tell good or bad, he then sells them an ancient pagan angry god (any old grump would do, from Marduk to Zeus) and passes it off as Jesus. Now, simply open one’s Bible to the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke/Acts, John, not the coalition) would normally put his views on ice, but he first drills into his followers they are unworthy of questioning him, and so are the rest of us. Then he skewers them with rotten theology they call “sound doctrine” all the while contradicting the Bible we all read:
Here is an example that pops up in my mind:
(some random internet video from a Driscoll sermon)
1) He starts a sermon about submission (surprise, surprise) with a story about how women are not called to submit to all men (mentions his daughter to back it up) then launches into how it is only their husbands. His Bible verses start at Ephesians 5:22 (skipping the main point in Ephesians 5:21). But a quick glance at the Bible will show that, in fact, Ephesians 5:21 does say “submit yourselves to one another” so, actually we are supposed to submit to all men (and women). Conveniently he skips the main point the Apostle is making and in the video audience is nodding along as he talks.
Now, for me, I would have my own Bible open, I would follow along and read above and below the verse the pastor is talking about – I have done this for years and noticed how often pastors make mistakes when selecting portions of texts. But, if I was first lead to believe that I couldn’t truly discern a good teaching from a bad, I wouldn’t bother. Or, I would think because he is a pastor and I am not, he must be smarter, better, wiser or more correct than I.
This is the second or third article by a former Mars Hiller I have read that emphasizes in painful detail that they have dealt with their own issues and are now able to talk/write without judgment/pain/bitterness, etc.
That is curious to me. It is no surprise to anyone Driscoll is causing people extreme pain. Having a negative emotion about that doesn’t disqualify someone from telling the truth surrounding the events that have hurt people.
It almost feels to me like they fear people reading them will dismiss their story unless they can prove they are free of any negative emotions. What jars me about this is that it would seem the church is closing it’s ears to anyone who says anything bad about their “dear leader”.
So, I suspect what Bent/Brent is getting at here is that he carefully not calling Driscoll any names (if he would like me to do that for him, I am game 😉 such as ‘rotten fruit’ or ‘wolf’ in order to allow certain people to keep reading without slamming their laptop shut at the mere mention of a bad comment towards their leader. What amazes me about cults is the way people will defend a leader beyond all reason, but what fascinates me even more is how the leaders can get people to stop trusting themselves while convincing them to trust them (the leaders).
Otherwise I agree Anon 1, Mark is a wolf and people need to figure that out for themselves and back away, he may be a smooth talker, but his sermons or only half-truths and don’t set people free.
__
“Da Big Ole’ Bad Proverbial ‘Pastoral’ Church Wolf, R-e-v-i-s-i-t-e-d?”
hmmm…
He huff’d and he puff’d, BUT… – is a fractured church fairytale that takes a whole new spin on an age old story.
What?
It is a “tale” about da spiritual abuse of da Big Bad ‘Pastoral’ Church Wolf, also known as MerkyD. Merky is a ‘sometimes’ errant so-called shepherd with an
affinity, an unconscionable, assiduous taste for Jesus’s three lit’l lambs.
huh?
He manages to decimate two of Jesus’ lambs, and of the third, well dis God’s little one build his spiritual house upon da Rock (Jesus, da Christ) so when da big bad ole’ proverbial foul smelling pastoral church wolf came and blew against dat h-o-u-s-e…well you know da rest of the story…
Yehaaaaaa!
Good for you lit’l sheep!
(No wood, hay, or abusive Neo-Calvinist religious stubble, for you!)
-bump-
A house built upon da ‘Christ’ beats two blown ta microscopic volcanic dust particles (or run over by da bus, -snicker- ) by doze proverbial pastoral church excrement spewers, don’t ya think?
Skreeeeeeeeeeeetch!
Sweet!
God’s children will love following along Jesus’s adventure(s) and learn da preserved sacred words about Him, as long as no proverbially wicked ‘pastoral’ foul breath, or pointy tooth ‘spiritual’ critters are involved.
Hee, Hee,Hee…
…and a Happy un-spiritually-abusive New Year to you kind folks, as well!
-squish-
Careful what (church) you step in!
(grin)
hahahahahaha
*
hmmm…
So, Mark Driscoll is no longer legally ‘accountable’ to the elders of Mars Hill Church, Well, Well…(and has apparently not been for some time) – which to discerning eyes appears to be a precipitous precarious preponderant perennial pro-scription for a deleterious di-sas-ter in da makin’.
Mark, careful what you wish for.
huh?
Has the word of God passed away, merely to be replaced by a iron religious tyranny? If so, such a pastor would do well to consider that those who foolishly seek power by riding the back of the proverbial tiger of religious tyranny, may very well one day ended up inside.
-snicker-
Who is building dis proverbial Mars Hill Church ‘house’ anyway?
Apparently, Mark Driscoll has made Mars Hill his very own personal pos-sess-ion; God is not mocked, the harder Mark presses his grasp, the sooner it will fall from his proverbial coveting widdle fingers.
Skreeeeeeeeeetch!
…unless da Lord, He builds da house, dem Mars Hill workman are juz labor’in in vain…
Tap, tap, tap, tap…
(Crash)
(sadface)
Sopy
__
Comic relief: Looney Tunes – ‘Pigs in a Polka’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nh11A41klL4
Inspirational: Sarah Reeves – “Oceans, Where Feet May Fail”, by Hillsong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jhf6XHvMHqE
;~)
—
Casey wrote:
I guess Jesus and Paul would not be selected as elders.
raswhiting wrote:
Head banging on table…
Beakerj wrote:
Totally agree. This guy lurches from controversy to controversy.
Daisy wrote:
I agree. Unless he has a real crisis in his life, he will continue on pretending he is God’s gift to the evangelical community. And his followers will continue to prop him up until they, too, get thrown under the bus.
I’ve been reading a bit about human nature and our response to authority.
More than half of a leader’s followers will blindly follow regardless of the evidence.
About 40% will listen to their niggling doubts and will distance themselves. The rest cannot handle the emotional discomfort.
Bad pastors will always have naive devotees. As long as they tithe, they’ll be doing quite well.
dee wrote:
I wonder if MD will actually grade papers? ( that was the biggest time consumer in my career, esp., when I had essay exams.) Will he hold normal professorial office hours? Or will he not want to see the hoi polloi? Teaching, if done right, is hard work…..trouble is, I don’t see it being done right here….
Sopwith wrote:
I just want to say that I really love this Sopy character. It is kind of like sugar in medicine. 🙂
@ dee:
Actually, of course, it is written that elders should prove themselves first at home by managing their own households well, including a bit about their children. And actually, neither Jesus nor Paul settled down as pastor of a local church. Back in the day in SBC, when both the earth and I were young, a differentiation used to be made between the different callings and qualifications of a resident pastor of a church, on the one hand, and an evangelist or missionary or denominational employee (think Nashville or Richmond) or writer or speaker or musician or whatever.
Whether or not that was an accurate understanding of that particular scriptural instruction I will leave to others to decide, but it did make some sense in smoothing out what might otherwise be an inconsistency in scripture. It did also leave room for women in certain levels of ministry who were not held responsible for managing their homes and children in the same way that men were, since that would not have been the understanding of how homes worked back in the day that that portion of scripture was written. Hence, some woman with administrative and teaching and leadership skills, for example, could well be a “powerful” musician or president of the WMU or SS teacher or such no matter what kind of a mess she might be dealing with at home, if it came to that, and she was not at that time held responsible as to whether or not her husband was/became a believer. And it made room for a large number of single women to be enormously active in church work, including at the denominational level.
All of that sort of thinking seems to have changed, and IMO not all of the change has been for the better. So now we have, I gather, some young smart-aleck kids placed in positions of authority, and we have singles shunted aside, and we have women told that they cannot decide to buy a refrigerator but at the same time being held responsibly if some heathen they married does not get “gloriously saved from a life of …..”. We are missing the boat somewhere here.
Anon 1 wrote:
I am struggling with a way to say this that makes sense. There were two incidents of suffering in my life. The first was the brain tumor of my daughter in which she was given a poor prognosis in the beginning. I lived for years, fearing each day would be the day I was told she was going to die soon.
Then, there was confronting the poorly handled pedophile situation in a former church and our subsequent rejection by both the pastors at one church and then at another.
These things were horrible. It was hard to watch my daughter suffer. It was hard to see some kids who were sexually abused deal with that abuse. It was also hard to be rejected by a group of pastors as well as some in the congregation.
Had these two incidents not occurred in my life, I would most likely not have gone down the road that led to this blog and our willingness to go out on a limb to defend those who have been hurt, abused, etc within the church community.
As you know, I am not a Calvinist in my theology (in spite of the speculations of some). My view on suffering is quite simple. We live in a world of pain and suffering. Some caused by others, some caused by ourselves, some merely the result of a world invaded by the side effects of sin that affect us down to our very genes so that little girls get brain tumors.
God enters into and redeems that suffering. I do not believe He directly causes it, at least in this time. I believe He works in and through the suffering. For some of us, redemption is seen on this side of eternity. My daughter survived; Deb and I started a blog and I have made some wonderful new friends that I would never have met in this life. I am eating lunch today with one of those people. I watched Eagle be baptized.I have new friends in Dubai and Antarctica, of all places! I have had so many off blog communications with wonderful people. This would not have happened if I had lived a happy, easy life. Of that I am convinced.
However, for others, their personal redemption is not seen until the other side. i think of Jessica Lunsford, the 7 year old child who was raped and buried alive. I believe she went straight into the arms of Jesus who has healed her and given her short life meaning. Yet, even her precious life on this earth was not in vain. Many states have passed laws in Jessica’s name.
There are others who have no redemption in this life. I always shake my head at those whose kids go through one scary surgery and recuperate. They then believe that they are the experts on suffering.
I often wonder how they would cope if their child had to undergo years of painful therapy. I wonder how they would feel to hear their child scream in pain and fear because they could not understand what was happening to them. And then they die, in pain. I saw some of those children in my years of traipsing through neuro-oncology clinics. I think of the kids who starve to death of each day, who are murdered or sold into slavery. It is horrible .
For those children, the only hope that we have is for the life to come which will redeem those years of suffering and give them joy, peace and comfort. It should also spur each one of us to enter those lives whenever possible and bring comfort where we can.
If the horrible things that happen to us had no hope for redemption, what a sad life I would have had. Pain and suffering happen in this life, whether we personally experience it or not. Given that inevitability, I am grateful for the front row seat that I had. It changed me. I would not want to go back to the person that I was 20 years ago. Do I want people to be abused. Of course not! But I have learned from the sufferings of others as well as my own.
Nancy wrote:
So Paul could be the great apostle, telling churches how to do it but not be qualified to do it himself? That seems a bit confusing.
There is also the admonition that pastors need to have children who obey the Lord yet some have children who rebel.
“a]n elder must be . . . a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient”
By this criteria, even God couldn’t be a pastor, given the actions of Adam and Eve.
dee wrote:
There’s also the view (I should cite this, but can’t remember where I saw it first) that Paul’s instructions in this case were to a church that was in trouble and needed a “quick fix” to become stabilized. It makes sense that he would give people who haven’t shown much discernment a way of picking elders that involves making decisions based on readily observable characteristics.
For this reason, I don’t believe that those verses should be applied literally today in all situations. Of course, as a perpetually unattached person, I could be accused of a biased interpretation.
@ dee: I find myself deeply troubled by a lot of what Bent says about suffering, but right now, i’m not really up to even attempting to articulate it. (Though one point – a minor one – is that the book of Job is a literary creation, which makes it no less real… Just not what many evangelicals think it is – imo, and that of many others who really know the poetic/literary parts of the OT.)
Josh wrote:
Well, this is one who is attached, at least loosely and I agree with you. It cannot be applied literally, in all cultures and all times or there would need to be a mass exodus of pastors, elders, leaders, etc. I know of far too many stories…
@ numo:
I know that you are going though a rough time right now. i will be interested in hearing your thoughts.
It is important to realize that Bent went through his own period of highly publicized suffering. He is a counselor and this is what he has found to helpful to him and to many of his clients.
Each of us travels our own path as we struggle to make sense of pain and suffering in this world. In the end, we must come to some resolution of our sufferings or we will sink into a life of permanent despair. This does not mean we forget or deny our pain, it means that we do not allow it to define us.
Although this quote is directed to those who have lost a loved one, it’s sentiment reflects my thoughts, particularly the ending.
“You will lose someone you can’t live without,and your heart will be badly broken, and the bad news is that you never completely get over the loss of your beloved. But this is also the good news. They live forever in your broken heart that doesn’t seal back up. And you come through. It’s like having a broken leg that never heals perfectly—that still hurts when the weather gets cold, but you learn to dance with the limp.”
― Anne Lamott
We are all working at dancing with a limp: pain and joy co-mingled.
I like what Dee said about suffering, and I would be a very different person but for some difficult experiences I went through. That said, there were two incidents of suffering/abuse – one in church and one at work – that have marked me and I’m still not the same person I was, and not for the better. So time will tell how God will make sense of it all.
When I went through the difficult church experience (not in CLC), I spoke to friends in that church who were supportive and most of whom left the church with me. But I did not go to others in the church, nor did I succumb to temptation to shout it from the rooftops how troubled that pastor was, even though he was involved in public ministry in many places at the time. Should I have done so? I’m not sure. Maybe if I’d seen him in a large public forum affecting a lot of people. But he soon moved out of the country. One thing is for sure – suffering comes with no easy answers and no manual.
@ Former CLC’er: I hear you.
@ Dee: how can all suffering be redemptive?
Think:the Holocaust. The genocides in Cambodia, Armenia, former Yugoslavia, and so many. Xtian persecution of Jews over the past 1500+ years, and so on.
Maybe there are individuals who survived and found grace, somehow. But they were also deeply scarred, often irreparably, and I see no redemption there.
I don’t like it when people over spiritualize suffering,though I think it *is* an attempt to find meaning in great pain, grief and loss – and i’m sure everyone here can point to *instances* of it. But that by no means makes the pain of the original trauma any less, nor can it heal all the wound (in our bodies, minds and spirits). Think:PTSD. And related effects. And so on.
We are fragile creatures, and it seems to me that there are *no* guarantees of complete wholeness while we’re alive on this planet. The full consolation comes after earthly life is done.
I have known people who lived brief, tormented lives, and some who lived relatively long but equally tortured lives. I’ve lived with deep and pervasive mental/emotional anguisdh that could not be relieved by any medicine – or even by therapy – until the mid-80s and after. I see no redemptive value in the suffering I experienced, but i’m damn glad it’s over and behind me (unless I get foolish enough to stop taking those meds – then POW!)
I have CFS and fibromyalgia, and believe you me, there is NO “redemptive value” in intense fatigue, scaling back one’s life, and certainly not in physical pain.
Have I changed in some healthy ways;become more aware of others’ suffering as a result of all this – and of grief and loss, too? Yes, but it’s NOT *because of* suffering – it’s been via learning to cope as best I can, by grace and by my own choices.
After being booted from That Church, I was practically force-fed a conversational diet of “redemptive suffering” by 2 well-meaning people who did.not.have.a.clue. they cut me off every single time I tried to express my anger, grief, pain and bewilderment.
That whole experience has scarred me deeply, and i’ll carry those wound for the rest of my life. They still ache.
Does this help answer your question?
Beakerj wrote:
The word Brits use for “cigarette” is slang over here for homosexual.
Everyone on this thread is so determined to think of Bent as “Brent,” I vote he should legally change his name and henceforth be known as “Brent.” 😆
Not Telling wrote:
I think you’re onto something really important here, Not Telling. I’m not knocking Bent Meyer; it’s entirely his place to find his own answers to the experiences he’s been through. But on the whole, the church lacks a theology of anger. We have bought into the idea that “Christlike” means passive, other-worldy and serene, and that any emotion that disturbs the peace or makes us uncomfortable is “un-Christlike”. It’s OK to speak out against vague, general ideas like “sin” and “injustice”, but if we get angry at specific injustices or sins that we have witnessed, we’re being “un-Christlike”.
You all know the story of how Jesus walked into a temple that was desecrated with a sordid market-place. He went back to Bethany that evening; processed his feelings about what he had seen and, undoubtedly, prayed. Having resolved his emotions, he fashioned a weapon; returned the next day and, in great anger, destroyed that same market-place.
Nobody is pretending that Jesus spent all his time trashing places. But one thing this incident must teach us is that there are times when the Christ-like thing to do is to fashion a (proverbial) whip out of cords, and use it.
@ Daisy:
The name “Bent” is not, of course, originally an English name. It’s nordic, and it means “blessed”.
I don’t doubt that there’s a language somewhere on earth in which “Nick” is a rude word.
Daisy wrote:
I know a number of Brents, but have never before known any Bents, so I tend to read the latter’s name with an unnecessary r.
In German, I’ve heard that if you use the wrong verb to say that you’re warm, it actually means that you’re gay. So be careful, because there’s a big difference between Ich bin warm and Mir ist warm. I just can’t remember which is which. 😮
@ Nick Bulbeck: and the Seattle area is full of Scandinavians. There’s even a big statue of Leif Erikson in one of their old ‘hoods…
I notice patterns and what rings out for me in the many spiritual abusers I have studied (Chuck O’Neal, CJ Mahaney, Mark Driscoll, James MacDonald, etc) is the common blame shifting. But what strikes me among the Neo-Calvinist group is a lack of empathy. They seem to dismiss emotions and chalk things up to “God is Sovereign.” If they go through suffering – it is persecution – suffering for righteousness sake, but when it comes to them causing others pain, nope – there’s no such thing. They are exempt from any responsibility. It becomes spiritualized.
Anyone else suffering or having emotional pain is deemed as selfish, anger, bitterness and labeled as sin. I wonder how they label David’s strong emotion in Psalms?
Daisy wrote:
St. Bent
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
As a half-blooded Norwegian, I LOVE this comment!
Not Telling wrote:
This is a great point and one I am very familiar with. Problem is that it rarely works except to dumb down and desensitize our view of spiritual abuse. I am more worried about people who have benign reactions (as in if I tell the truth people will think I am bitter angry, etc) to spiritual abuse of others or even themselves. It means evil is normalized for the institution. My litmus test is can I explain this to an atheist or a 10 year old and it sound like something Jesus would be involved in?
Julie Anne wrote:
Initial impressions after watching that short video clip on your website:
Wild eyed – he’s so excited, excited, EXCITED!!!
Symptoms include –
from Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 4th edition, 1994, commonly referred to as DSM-IV, of the American Psychiatric Association:
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity, need for admiration, and lack of empathy.
dee wrote:
I totally agree with this. I just disagree there is some mystery redemption we cannot know about that God is saving to tell folks about one day why their suffering was holy. Jesus Christ is the redemption.
dee wrote:
This is one I am having to really do a lot of soul searching on. Why is it, we have to experience suffering before we can relate to others who suffer? As believers that should be part of who we become because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. I really wrestle with this one. WE should not, as believers, have to experience horrible suffering to help others who suffer or even to empathize and understand. This thinking plays into suffering as a form of Holiness/piousness.
I go back to as believers we are to be the ones who fight to eradicate suffering as we live out the kingdom now. We should be the ones coming up with cures for cancer, feeding the hungry, nursing the sick, etc. You know, it is strange but when I was a kid, we had major fundraising/giving to our denominational hospital strictly to pay for those who could not afford surgeries. That is just one example out of many. But now too many think suffering is pious or think speaking of being spiritually abused by another Christian is not good unless done their way.
@ numo:
Me too 🙁
I don’t know Bent. I realize that everyone deals with pain and suffering differently and, often times, the only and best way they possibly can when they are in the midst of the experience. I’m sure Bent and his family were ‘shell shocked’ and numb for a period of time as well, so I can’t really fault how he dealt with his experience.
The above being said, the article is somewhat confusing especially coming from a man who was an elder of a church and who should be caring about the people who are now being led by, not a team of elders, but by Mark Driscoll. Even now, Driscoll is planning a school to train others in his way of leading, preaching, etc., thereby spreading his often errant teaching. This article makes it sound like Bent is satisfied ‘picking up the pieces’ after the bus runs people over rather than doing something to get the dangerous bus driver off the streets. This is one thing I don’t understand.
My other initial reaction on reading the article was one of being over-spiritualized. It sounded very Piperish. Should Driscoll really just be left alone to do as he pleases, meanwhile devestating hundreds of others?
Lots of Scandinavians in the Seattle area; if Bent’s family is from there, it may be that his folks chose to spell his name that way instead of the Nordic form, Bengt (if that’s what they meant in the first place – my assumption).
MD is perplexing. He is obviously very smart, and, to me, obviously very insecure and spiritually deluded. It’s very unfortunate that he has the influence he does. And when I get really honest about my life, I see plenty of fear that drives me to do unloving and manipulative things, too; and I struggle to grapple with my own spiritual delusions. In that sense, I am MD – and I don’t want to lose sight of that, because it keeps at least a tiny part of my heart tender toward him. “Tiny” is all I can manage for the time being… But love beyond what MD has experienced within the confines of his very narrow life and even narrower theology is the only thing that will save him. If he does not experience it in this life, he will experience it in the next, when all pride and pretense will be stripped away, and what has been said in secret will be shouted from the housetops – and then MD will have to contend with the fire of God’s love directly experienced…
Whether MD experiences a fall or not, I am afraid for his children. I am more afraid for them if they stay within that “Calvinist” system and become heirs apparent of the Mars Hill Empire than if they “reject God.” That sort of god and system should be rejected.
Bent’s tenderness of heart has kept him from the despair of which Dee writes. May Our Lord continue to help him and all involved.
@ TedS.:
Read this article http://www.charlottemagazine.com/Charlotte-Magazine/January-2014/The-Story-of-Elevation-Church/ about Furtick and see if you don’t come away with similar thoughts.
Julie Anne wrote:
When self-righteous people suffer it is unjust and unwarranted.
When anyone else suffers, it’s trivialized or the victim gets blamed.
Deb wrote:
Is that like being a Half-Blood Prince?
dainca wrote:
It was actually Bengt Larsson, the chess grandmaster, that I was thinking of.
Also, as a counselor, I would hope Bent is aware that Driscoll has some obvious personality disorder that has played out in public over the last 8 years or so if one is paying attention. If what has transpired in PUBLIC with Driscoll concerning behavior, teaching, writing, etc, is considered to be what Jesus taught then Christianity is in real trouble. Bent seems to present Driscoll as a troubled soul who deserves our patience who also happens to be a celebrity pastor instead of the danger he really is when it comes to what passes for Christianity in that world.
We could take one of several subjects of his teaching, behavior, etc and show how it is not of Christ. Unless one redefines Christ as Driscoll has done. To dumb down such things in order to be considered nice is disconcerting to me because of the dangers cult of personality bring and continue to bring.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Or a half-blooded princess…
dee
You write…
“By this criteria, even God couldn’t be a pastor, given the actions of Adam and Eve.”
Do WE, His Sheep, have any way at ALL to check and see if these wannabe’s Qualify?
How do we know the many False Prophets and False Teachers?
What is your criteria for today’s pastor/elder/overseers?
Are we just allowed to make up our own criteria?
dee
You write…
“It cannot be applied literally, in all cultures and all times or there would need to be a mass exodus of pastors, elders, leaders, etc.”
What does “IT” refer to? – If “IT” refers to Qualifications in 1 Tim 3 and Titus.
Why can “IT” NOT “be applied literally?”
What orher way can “IT” be applied?
How do we know in – What Coulture? What Time?
Do WE, His Ekklesia, His Sheep just “Ignore” the Qualifications Paul gave for elder/overseer?
Because these Qualifications are so difficult? “there would need to be a mass exodus of pastors”
Or, do WE, His King and Priests, His Body, His church, just make up our own?
Are, WE, His Disicples, His Ekklesia, His sheep, just to go along with the Status Quo.
Just go along with who eversays…
Hey – Look at me, I’m NOW a pastor/elder/overseer?
Casey
Much agreement when you write…
“Sadly most seminaries and churches are NOT following the Bible when selecting elders.”
If they did – the pool of Qualified pastor/elder/overseers – Would be quite small. 😉
And these “seminaries and churches” would be out of Bu$ine$$. 🙂 If they told the truth…
Oh, we just “Ignore” and “Twist” those Qualifications to have pastor/elder/overseers…
Oh Yeah…
We, the “seminaries and churches” just tell the folks we have “Biblical” elder/overseers…
And we tell them, over and over again, And glory – they believe us…
No one ever checks anyway – and we maintain power and control…
Because – our elder/overseers are “Biblical” – Whether they qualify or NOT. 🙂
Bent, it’s a mistake to believe that empathy means vicariously experiencing being sawed in half or torn apart by lions while people cheer. Including these in your examples makes me suspect you’ve been searching for virtue in suffering itself. It is not there!
Suffering is like death: destructive and wrong. Neither are from God. We don’t try to redeem death; why would we do so to suffering? We try to stop suffering and work to return meaning into our lives in spite of it. Someday suffering/death will be no more and there will be no subsequent loss of virtue!
Goodness sometimes happens/develops when we suffer but that’s because goodness sprouts up everywhere God is and S/He is everywhere. We learn some lessons when we suffer that we might not learn otherwise but that is because there are lessons specific to every experience.
Everything I’ve learned through my suffering I would have learned if there’d been 98% less of it. It is not true that, in order to learn x, I had to be (figuratively) smashed over the head and left (literally) brain-damaged. This is the attitude that Joni Earickson Tada has towards her suffering and it is a tragedy.
Anger is a vital part of healing from damage/abuse but it is mostly missing in your post. Anger in the right place by the right people could stop Driscoll’s bus rather than keeping us submissively picking up the pieces/parts he’s spread over the road 50 miles behind him.
So I agree with a number of commenters here. But I love your promotion of empathy. I agree that we need to grow that virtue.
@ numo:
From “Judaism for Everyone” by Rabbi Shmuley Boteach”
Central to the Jewish response to suffering is a staunch rejection of the belief in its redemptive power. According to Judaism there are no ennobling qualities in pain…. The belief in the redemptive quality of suffering is a profoundly Christian concept.
In Christianity, the suffering servant, the crucified Christ, brings atonement for the sins of mankind through his own sacrifice and torment. The message: Without suffering there can be no redemption. According to Christianity, if Jesus had not suffered and died on the cross, mankind would still be damned. Suffering is therefore extolled in the New Testament: “And not only that, but we also boast in our sufferings, knowing that suffering produces hope” (Rom. 5:3-4). “If we are being afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation; if we are being consoled, it is for your consolation, which you experience when you patiently endure the same sufferings that we are also suffering” (2 Cor. 1:6). Indeed, Paul even made suffering an obligation, encouraging the fledging Christians to “share in suffering like a good soldier of Christ Jesus” (2 Tim. 2:3).
In Judaism, however, suffering is anything but redemptive. It leads to a tortured spirit and a pessimistic outlook on life. It scars our psyches and brings about a cynical consciousness, devoid of hope. Suffering causes us to dig out the insincerity of the hearts of our fellows and to be envious of other people’s happiness. If individuals do become better people as a result of their suffering, it is despite the fact that they suffered, not because of it. Ennoblement of character comes through triumph over suffering, rather than its endurance.
Man’s mission was never to make peace with suffering and death, but to abolish them from the face of the earth for all eternity by joining God as a junior partner in creation. By studying medicine and offering aid to people in need, we live up to our highest calling of having been created in the divine image. The atheist doctor who struggles to cure AIDS is infinitely more in tune with the Jewish response to suffering than the minister of religion who tells his flock that suffering is part of the divine plan. The sinning businessman who may have never stepped into a synagogue but makes a loan to a colleague to save him from bankruptcy is more in tune with the Jewish response to suffering than the Rabbi who seeks to give a rationalization for why children die of leukemia…. Our role as humans is not to give meaning to aberrations, but combating them and to healing wounds.
Casey
Here is a quick review of most of the Qualifications in 1 Tim 3:1-6, and Titus 1:5-9 combined.
1 – Must Be Blameless — unrebukeable, innocent, without fault.
2 – husband of one wife — married, male.
….. Doesn’t the Reformed, Calvinist, NO female elders, crowd, use this Qualification often? 😉
….. But, I’ve noticed, most elder/overseer/leaders are kinda fuzzy on; Must Be Blameless. 🙂
3 – ruleth well his own house – have a family, children in subjection. (ESV, Manage Well.)
….. 1 Tim 3:4-5 – For if a man know not how to *rule his own house, how shall he
*take care of the church of God? – (Take care of His Ekklesia? His Redeemed? His Sheep?)
*Rule, Manage – Strongs #4291 proistemi – be over, a protector or guardian, give aid, to care for.
….. The stats for pastor/elder burnout and depression are horrible. And their families also suffer.
….. 80% of pastor/elders say – Pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
….. 77% of pastor/elders say – They do NOT have a good marriage. 70% battle depression.
Doesn’t this one Qualification Dis-Qualify 77% – 80% of pastor/elders? – “IF” they are honest?
Because, 77%- 80%, Do NOT Manage, protect, guard, give aid, care for, Well, their own house.
4 – not greedy of filthy lucre — Not greedy for money.
5 – vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
6 – sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
7 – of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.
….. Today pastor/elders are seeking Celebrity; as Leaders, Conference Speakers, Authors, etc.
….. Today, How many pastor/elders do WE, His Sheep, His Servants SEE who are Unassuming?
Modest? Reserved? Calm in spirit? Sound mind? Self controlled? Not greedy for money?
Here’s another bunch of elder/overseers, seeking Celebrity, Reputation, who are Dis-Qualified.
8 – no striker — NOT quarrelsome, contentious.
9 – not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
10 – not self willed — NOT self pleasing, NOT arrogant.
11 – not soon angry — NOT prone to anger.
12 – temperate — having power over, restraining.
….. Well, here’s five more I do NOT Qualify for. 😉
….. Do WE, His Ekklesia, His Disciples, see many pastor/elders today who meet these five?
….. There can’t be many pastor/elders left who Qualify after these 12 tuff Qualifications.
13 – **holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
14 – **just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.
….. Seems, Reformed Leaders, Pastor/Leaders, and the – Must have “Church Leaders”- crowd…
…..Is really kinda fuzzy on these two, *Holy and *Just, Undefiled by sin, innocent, faultless.
I’ve noticed most “Church Leaders” just “Ignore” them. Some do take the time to “Twist” them.
Their children must also Qualify:“having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly” Tit 1:6
15 – faithful children— believing, one who trusts in God’s promises.
16 – not accused of riot — Strongs – asotia — unsavedness.
….. an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
17 – unruly — disobedient.
….. Hmmm? Do you know any pastor/elder/overseers who have teenagers? 😉
….. Do you know any teenagers NOT accused of being “disobedient?”
….. These three Qualifications have to Dis-Qualify a bunch of pastor/elder/overseers. Yes?
Now, that’s a tough list of Qualifications. Yes?
Aren’t ALL the Qualifications, 1 Tim 3:1-6, Titus 1:5-9, important?
Which Qualifications, are WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, allowed to “Ignore” and “Twist?”
Seems to me, if WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Sheep, His Kings and Priests, you and me…
The “seminaries and churches” – Took these Qualifcations seriously…
The potential pool of wanna-be pastor/elder/overseers – would be quite small… 😉
And much “Spirtual Abuse” would be eliminated.
Maybe that is why jesus called Himself the “ONE” Shepherd?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
@ Muff Potter:
Well, apparently I agree with Boteach as to the nature of suffering, but not as to what Jesus did by it. 🙂
Thanks for that, Muff.
Beakerj wrote:
Yes, but its taking altogether too long for my taste.
“Lord, give me patience–and I mean NOW!!” 😉
@ Muff Potter: I like a lot of what he says, but echo Patrice’s response.
Also: ask 3 different rabbis, get at least 5 different answers. That’s one of the things I really like about Judaism – multiple viewpoints are welcomed, and in many cases seen as different facets of the same truth.
@ numo: though among the ultra-orthodox, not so much…
@ Patrice: I hear you, Patrice.
If God inflicts suffering on people for His purposes, then it would be wrong to try to relieve suffering. There was a time, and there have been people, who thought that the relief of suffering was wrong. Most people no longer think that. However, it is pretty ridiculous to think mutually contradictory thoughts. Choose which one you believe. If you believe God causes specific sufferings on specific people for specific reasons, next time you have surgery pass up the anesthesia. If you think that the relief of suffering is good, then rethink your philosophy of suffering. But you can’t have it both ways at the same time.
Folks,
I was out for 4 hours visiting with a commenter who was in town to visit relatives. Deb is also at her farm, having a family gathering. I am sorry for anyone who was in moderation during that time. As you will see, we have approved all of the comments which is usual for us. No one did anything wrong. Certain words trigger moderation since moderation does not know context or history. I cannot turn off that filter since it would result in some things being approved that would raise eyebrows.
Nancy wrote:
That is an interesting comment. It is worthy of a good discussion. The Quiverfull crowd applies it to having babies. You must have every baby and birth control is wrong.
Anon 1 wrote:
I agree. Most psychologists would say that a flat or joyful response to tragedy could be symptomatic of a psychological issue.
TedS. wrote:
We have always said that we believe that Driscoll is heading for problems. Serious problems.
Patrice wrote:
Good point Patrice. But I often wonder what would have happened if the hired men of the vineyard had not been consumed with jealousy at the vineyard owner’s beautiful Son and instead of conspiring to kill him, changed their ways.
Anon 1 wrote:
Whether this plays into Holiness/piousness or not, it has worked for me. It could be because I am not as strong, or as insightful or as spiritual as others. I promise you that I am not being sarcastic. But, a long time ago, I realized that it was useless to compare myself to others. I can only speak to what is true for me.
As a hospice nurse, I empathized with the dying. I did a good job in keeping them out of pain. I was kind to the families and helped them plan and make decisions. I even held many as they cried.
Fast forward to my daughter’s illness and the aftermath. That experience changed my emotions. When I hold those who cry, I now cry along with them. I walk with confidence and understanding into hospital rooms of friends who are suffering because I have been there. I know what to say and how to say it. Not because I took a course but because I know how I felt and what was of help to me. Perhaps there are many others who do that naturally and do not need to experience suffering to do it well. I am truly awed by those who can.
One of my pastors, who is not at all a Neo Calvinist, in fact he deeply disagrees with that doctrine, also says that pain and suffering makes a difference in the lives of those he knows. He knows because he has a seriously impaired adult child who does not recognize him not has he ever. He, too, believes that suffering and pain cause growth in the faith for those he has observed, including himself.
Again, maybe we are the weak ones and others are more in touch with the Spirit. But, for me, suffering changed me for the better.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Yep. It means “to steal.” 🙂
Josh wrote:
Oh, it gets worse, according to a friend of mine who worked in a duty section with Germans–to say “I am warm” does mean “I am homosexual.” However, saying “I am cold” means “I am frigid,” and “I am hot” means “I am (heavily aroused?).” 🙂
TedS. wrote:
Wow. Just wow.
And he says, “I’m looking forward to being one of your professors.”
That’s like when he gets up on stage and says, “I’m one of the pastors here.”
“One of” – right.
Really appreciated your point of view Dee. I know my experiences with Countryside have been used by God to shape me into me today. It was very painful, and I still deal with some lingering issues, but I am stronger and more grounded in my word because of it. When I began to feel wrong at the church, I picked up my bible, spent more time in prayer than I ever did before and when it all fell apart we STOOD on that word of God. I got hurt, mauled really, my child was harmed, my oldest daughter is not in church, yes there are things I hate about what happened to me. My enemy wanted to destroy us, and he did not succeed. My daughter will one day come back to Christ, my son has already worked through what happened and my husband and I have a strong marriage. I don’t agree with all of what Bent has said, but I heard his heart in it. Maybe each survivor takes away something different? Maybe the wounded heal differently? I know his experience was different than mine so why would his perspective be too?
@ dee:
Maybe we are talking about two different kinds of suffering rather than two kinds of people. There is suffering that can gentle a heart/mind, help bring sensitivity and wisdom. It’s limited in scope/depth and usually experienced with an amount of support.
The other kind of suffering breaks people apart. For eg, the seriously impaired adult child of the father you mentioned is destroyed, and the father is made wiser, gentler.
Distress and anxiety is draining. Traumatic experience is damaging. Chronic trauma is plain destructive. Being raped after escaping a violent marriage after an abusive childhood is killing fields, as is repeated deployment into combat zones after an abusive childhood….as examples. The amount of damage will vary from one person to another, and how much support one has during suffering makes a huuuge difference.
Maybe there is an optimal medicinal dosage for suffering. We all wish that everyone would get only that much.
The problem comes in when those who’ve benefited from an optimal dosae think they understand the use/meaning of suffering. Those so unfortunate as to have been chewed up by it are going to be upset when that happens.
You don’t do that, Dee, not that I’ve noticed anyway. You respect people’s experiences.
@ Anon:
There are no words…none at all….
dee wrote:
You are a beautiful soul Dee. Thanks for being vulnerable, and for healing along with all of us.
@ dee: suffering by itself isn’t what does it, though – it’s a person’s response to trying circumstances. you have changed by becoming more patient, compassionate and empathetic. that’s greatly to your credit and hardly a sign of “weakness.” but you could have had it all affect you in profoundly negative ways. you being you, the likelihood of that was small.
@ Patrice: indeed (to your entire comment).
@ dee: btw, i agree completely with Patrice about the kind of suffering that’s irreparably destructive, as well as her comments about support – or lack of it.
dee wrote:
I suspect that we will always run into trouble when we take Paul’s letters – written to specific congregations in specific contexts – and turn them into law.
Anon 1 wrote:
Actually, do we ever grow from anything but suffering? Aren’t all the most powerful lessons ultimately painful ones? –
If you want to end everybody’s alleged suffering you’re probably doing them no lasting favors.
numo wrote:
Is there is suffering that is “irreparably destructive,” than a loving sovereign God does not exist.
*
I do not believe in suffering that is “irreparably destructive.”
SENECA…
I still think you would make an outstanding marriage counselor! Your response to a woman in a marriage counseling session can be:
1. SUBMIT!!
2. You are sinfully craving answers….
3. The man is always right…..I don’t care if he’s pounding your head in.
I think Crossway is starving for business maybe you can write a marriage counseling book! 😛
@ Seneca: then you have had the good fortune to have never experienced it.
Get some compassion, Jimmy, and THEN you’ll have something ofo value to say. As for my examples, check upthread.
Numo and Anon 1
I’ve been watching the discussion all afternoon about pain and suffering and the theological connections to it. I can understand what Bent is saying and what Dee is saying. I liken it to a “Cause” and “Effect” situation. Does God intentionally cause suffering? Compare that to the following…does God redeem suffering? What is the effect? I would suggest that many Neo-Cals have not experienced suffering. The ones I know have not really experienced it due to age, meaning they are too young. Others are trapped in this black and white mindset where they need black and white answers. That works fine until it hits close to home…and that is what will happen, followed by a faith crisis. Take John Piper….I won’t write it here because Dee/deb will edit it the language but John Piper is basically a _______. (Use your imagination) Look at his pamphlet on cancer. It’s a joke, degrading and offensive to reason and faith. Prostate cancer is common and one of the most curable cancers that exist. Would John Piper have the balls to write “Cancer is a gift from God” if he were diagnosed with stage 4 liver, pancreatic, or stomach cancer? My guess no…. because this theology fails at horrific acts of evil or suffering. The Problem of Evil undermines reformed theology big time because reformed theology makes the Problem of Evil worse. People aren’t talking about this at all. Just those in the Christian Taliban who are following Mullah Piper’s every word who believe God foreordains evil.
Anon1 and Numo….my family has gone through a lot: pancreatic cancer, stage 3 brain tumor, schizophrenia, my staph infection which has come back and is causing me to consider a lot of options….none of which are desirable. But its leaving me with few options and I’m working with the doctors and medical technicians in charting a way forward. And yes I am scared. I wouldn’t be human if I didn’t. And that leaves me to another situation that I can’t get into fully. Dee/Deb/Julie Anne Smith all know what happened to me. Something evil happened a while back and I experienced a horrific betrayal. And it came from the most surprising of sources; someone who boasted of his sanctification among other things did the most evil thing that I have ever seen a Christian do in 13 years. Today I can identify with what people write about at SGM Survivors. This could have caused great harm. But Dee, Deb and others had their experiences and I feel a bonding to them as we can relate, share and empathize to spiritual manipulation and abuse.
Did God cause the pain that happened earlier this year? No….does God redeem the pain that took place? Yes…. I learned this from May until today that God redeems. Actually with those people in my life who knew the entire story…they were all impressed and amazed. The Lord did push back and something beautiful came out of it. And actually my experience taught me that the Lord can and does push back. Sometimes he redeems on the other side and sometimes he redeems here. Has that made it easy for me? No… I have 4 posts discussing my faith journey and this very topic we are discussing waiting in the wings here but I am still working at redeeming a mess that took place. And the mess led to a lot of grace.
Numo, Anon 1, and Dee…. All of you have an incredible opportunity to show grace due to your suffering. When you are knocked down, betrayed, cheated on, abused, etc… you are in a unique and special place that can be amazing. I learned this big time and it amazes me even today. Messes, suffering, pain, etc…are opportunities to show grace. This is graduate level Christianity and its hard to talk about this with the Neo Cals because their theology is really Pre-School.
Never have I seen a faith system that has screwed up so spectacular.
Consider…these could have been opportunities for the Neo-Cals to have shown grace and redeemed a mess and shown the world the Gospel; and yet they have blown it. Just blown it!
1. Mark Driscoll Plagiarism
2. Mark Driscoll and the members driven out from Mars Hill in 2007. As well as Bent, Paul, and other MH pastors
3. What Acts 29 did to Countryside
4. Matt Chandler and the people harmed at Acts 29 churches
5. Matt Chandler calling people “narcisstic zero’s”
6. The SGM lawsuit
7. SGM Survivors, Tolling Bell, SGM Refuge, TWW, Wine and Marble, etc…
8. CJ Mahaney running like a girl to CHBC and hiding behind Mark Dever’s skirt.
9. Every SGM church that broke away and did not repent of ANYTHING!!
10. Trueman and his exonerating of Mahaney.
I could go on, and on, and on…but for all the talk these guys have about the Gospel, their actions show that they don’t even have the Gospel at all. Why is that 3 women in North Carolina, and Oregon have more balls and more leadership that any of the men I listed above? Its because they understand the Gospel whereas many of the above mentioned do not. Your actions speak louder than any words that are written or taught. God does redeem pain..yes does God cause pain…no.
Seneca wrote:
Oh, I don’t know….. Aren’t there more than 20 descriptions of God-given growth in the NT? And how many of those would you suppose attribute this growth to suffering? More than, or equal to Zero?
@ raswhiting:
Been meaning to get around to this one for a while.
What happened to Rick Melson, who was borrowed for a long time from Piper to help set up the Resurgence Training Center? How many people earned that Masters in Missional Leadership again? What about the four million above normal tithing that was asked to help get that program off the ground?
MH tried launching its own seminary program back in 2009 and it got a roll-out and some promotion and now? Do John Piper and Bruce Ware even mention having any role in that thing in their CVs? Not last I checked. Now it’s partnering with Western Seminary and Corban University.
Curious thing how a couple of years ago we were hearing about Mars Hill starting its own music label and then about a year on we were getting news of an exciting partnership between Mars Hill Church and tooth & nail records. It’s almost as though MH founders at building music labels and schools from the ground up and has to partner or assimilate already-made entities to gain some traction, it seems. What happened, for instance, to Re:Sound?
WenatcheeTheHatchet wrote:
You mean the “highly innovative and results-oriented visionary leader with entrepreneurial passion and drive, with more than 20 years of effective leadership experience and expertise with proven results”?
http://www.linkedin.com/in/rickmelson
Over-spiritualizing suffering is a funny thing. I agree that Christians have a tendency to do that. The idea that bad things happen and there might not be a reason why (other than the fact that we live in a fallen world) is just so uncomfortable for a lot of people. I find that compassionate silence towards someone who is deeply suffering is preferable than a canned “God lets these things happen for a reason.” Honestly, I don’t think He does. I just think that horrible crap happens because our world is no longer Eden, and it’s a natural consequence from being in a sinful world. I believe that going through suffering isn’t automatically always going to be a redemptive event. It’s just a sad reality that exists. This is one of the reasons I can’t accept Calvinism. I can’t for the life of me come to the conclusion that a rape of a child or some other equally heinous act was under His sovereign decree. It’s depressingly fatalistic to think that ALL bad things happen because God has His mysterious reasons. I don’t buy it, and I refuse to place the blame of something terrible like that at the feet of God. I just can’t do it.
However, I do think that God sees all the suffering of His people and can use it for good and His glory. Maybe through reaching to a greater audience, or maybe through refining a person. I think, though, the most “useful” aspect of suffering is that it does make me rely on God more. I am forced to the realization that if I am stripped of everything, I still have Him. And that, I suppose, is all that should matter in the end. I find comfort in this. But as for the event that lead to the suffering in the first place, I don’t think it occurred for any greater reason other than the fact that bad things will always happen in this world until Jesus comes again.
I have major depressive disorder. It, in not so many words, sucks. I have been medicated, therapied, and then some. I have been self-destructive, suicidal, and despondent.
I have always come out relying on God more in the end of all trials than I did going into them. That, however, was a personal choice of mine on how to approach my suffering (I did not always cope this way, and was infinitely worse off when I was an agnostic). I don’t think there is some greater purpose to my mental anguish, though, other than the fact that I am a human, and the human condition has been broken since Adam. I certainly didn’t become a Christian because I have a mental illness that drove me to it. I’d go so far to say that I became one in spite of it, actually.
Some could see it as a trial or test of faith in terms of responding to a personal tragedy. For me, it’s just been about comfort in an inevitably rough patch of life.
Eagle wrote:
I think I’d make a “kick a** marriage counselor. I might pursue that in the coming year.
II Cor. 11
…24 Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes. 25 Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, a night and a day I have spent in the deep. 26 I have been on frequent journeys, in dangers from rivers, dangers from robbers, dangers from my countrymen, dangers from the Gentiles, dangers in the city, dangers in the wilderness, dangers on the sea, dangers among false brethren;…
“Sometimes you must hurt in order to know, fall in order to grow, lose in order to gain because most of life’s greatest lessons are learned through pain.”
numo wrote:
This is also the case in many streams of Christianity. In fact, all one has to do is read about the ecumenical councils to see just how much people differed and how few points really had to be agreed upon to be considered Christian (basically the ancient creeds). Really, it was the Reformation and resulting civil (and international) wars that resulted in a kind of strict confessionalism still embraced by many Christian quarters.
Seneca wrote:
In a word: balderdash.
We only learn from suffering sometimes, from some suffering; mostly it tears us down until we are scarcely able to function.
We always learn from prayer; from Scripture; from love; from joy; from the delight of seeing the joy of a loved one. These things, and their fellows in life are what truly teach us, what truly grow us.
Suffering only teaches when the joy of the Lord is so great that we see the difference between the two, and that is only because of the Fall.
God did not create us to suffer; He created us for friendship & fellowship. To say that we “only grow from suffering” is to claim that sin is better for us than the Presence of God as He originally intended for us. That, my friend, is heresy and worse.
A point here: C S Lewis wrote once that “pain is God’s megaphone”, and people love to quote that. What they fail to mention is, that after experiencing the pain of his wife’s terminal illness & death, and after experiencing that sorrow, as well as great & continuing physical suffering of his own, he said, at the end of his life, that “I didn’t know what I was talking about”.
Bent, you are great counselor. I’m glad God placed you in my path. I was excommunicated, slandered, you know the deal. After two years of trying to find my footing in my life again, I finally sought (secular) counseling for what appeared to me to be a fearful, gradually shrinking life. It was like my circle of friends, activity, interests and leaving my home kept getting smaller. I took several inventories and bingo!… I was the victim of PTSD (and by no means do I minimize the more traumatic events others have gone through). With a proper diagnosis (and I don’t mean my sinful nature, inability to move on or forgive, etc.), and treatment I have been growing again in truth, confidence, trust and courage. I commented to my son yesterday (before I read your account) that the coolest thing about the internet was that I could read accounts of events similar to mind, and witness the courage and calmness and reason and grace of similar victims and follow in their footsteps. I had in mind Brent Detwiler and the former elders of James McDonald’s church. I am persuaded by your good examples…I guess you are indeed still leaders in the church.
I didn’t realize until I read your post that the small Christian community I had left was actually a liability. They are unwittingly Job’s counselors. By telling me to shush, move on, find a new church, “shake the dust from my sandals”, all the stuff friends understandably do to help us cope, that they too added weight to the burden I was already schlepping.
As you have become, I hope to be. A source of strength and light to others because I now understand. Thanks again for sharing.
Eagle nailed it waaaayyy up above.
Evangelicalism needs its idols. Therefore, we must turn our backs on what we know to be true, dangerous, or is threatening in any way.
My caution would be that we not simply look to the leaders, such as Driscoll, as being the problem, but rather as them showing us the problem. While I haven’t read much of Julie Anne’s story in the last few months, if I remember correctly her pastor (Chuck Smith) did not have a large following, church, etc.
In a conversation/argument with my father who is a pastor this past week, I tried to bring this point up fully and it was continuously rejected. The Doug Philips case is a picture of what is happening in the patriarchal movement. The Mark Driscoll case is a picture of what is happening in the Hyper-Cal, Trendy Evangel Movement. The problem is not simply that this is happening in these Mega-churches such as Bent and his family experienced, but that it is happening throughout our culture in churches where men are mimicking their behavior.
Simply put, Christ is not being preached. Man’s need to do SOMETHING FOR Christ or some sort of other gospel is being preached. Take a listen to Wade Burleson’s preaching and then try to find someone who remotely preaches that way. I find that as a pastor that it is difficult to preach with an emphasis on Christ when I am focused on the inabilities or problems of those in front of me. Jesus is the answer, Driscoll, et al, is not.
One comment deleted.
Scot McKnight wrote an excellent article on publishing and “platform.”
Excerpt:
Seneca wrote:
We can’t end everyone’s suffering, but it’s nonsense to suggest we shouldn’t try to alleviate some. Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats makes clear (to me, anyway) what our response to the hardships of our neighbours should be.
And just out of curiousity — what did you mean by “alleged” suffering?
Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:
It’s easy to be all theological and philosophical about suffering when you are not currently going through a difficulty or never experienced one yourself.
Some of the worst responses I got when I went to other people (mainly Christians) needing emotional support after my loved one died, were people who tried to give me reasons for the loss and the pain I felt, who got all theological about it, who gave me platitudes, quoting Bible verses about death or pain at me, or shamed me for admitting to having grief.
Sometimes the best thing a person can do to help a hurting person is just sit quietly with them as the hurting person talks about their pain or sits there and cries.
The more you open your mouth with the person who is undergoing something traumatic, the more you try to explain why the tragedy occurred, the more pain you are likely causing them.
I understand what some people in the thread are saying about one being able to learn and grow from pain and yada yada and so forth, but when I am hurting, I really did not need or want explanations, or deep, theological reasoning. I sure as heck did not want to hear that God was permitting the pain to “make you more like Jesus” or “teach you a life lesson.”
Like Job didn’t need any of that stuff from his religious pals after most of his family was killed.
@ dee: MD is a classic example of Narcissistic Personality Disorder… writ large. He destroys those who stand up to him, or at least tries to — a classic trait of those who are NPD:
— Expects to be recognized as superior and special, without superior accomplishments
— Expects constant attention, admiration and positive reinforcement from others
— Envies others and believes others envy him/her
— Is preoccupied with thoughts and fantasies of great success, enormous attractiveness, power, intelligence
— Lacks the ability to empathize with the feelings or desires of others
— Is arrogant in attitudes and behavior
— Has expectations of special treatment that are unrealistic
zooey111 wrote:
Yep.
It’s oh so easy to spout off witty, religious-sounding one liners about pain and suffering – and I grant there may even be an iota of truth in some of these religious cliches – but when you are the one going through the painful situation, those pithy sayings or religious cliches are not ultimately satisfying.
Anon 1 wrote:
I don’t understand this. Why call it a disorder? Why not just call it sin, since that’s what it is?
@ Anon:
admittedly a somewhat rhetorical question about Melson. It’s more interesting what the four million raised circa 2009 went to and that instead of Re:Train there’s the partnerships with Western Seminary and Corban University being proudly announced. Seems like Driscoll’s been proudly announcing the home brew and then serving Budweiser a year or so later when the home brew didn’t work out for a couple of projects now.
Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
Star Fish Story
Daniel wrote:
You got the correct first name, good memory. His name is Chuck O’Neal and you’re right, it was a congregation of about 100 and although it has diminished greatly, he is still preaching (even though he is in church discipline and his license was revoked). He also has been speaking at his own conference and brought in Ken Cook of CARM ministries and Tony Miano – men who overlook the fact that a pastor sued 5 church members.
Please allow me the opportunity to post a little note to Chuck that I posted on my own blog today as another reader triggered memories of what it was like to be under that kind of control:
Chuck O’Neal, I believe YOU are a fraud. You care about souls that YOU can conquer for YOUR narcissistic benefit, not for God’s glory.
Mark Driscoll like Chuck O’Neal believe they are special anointed ones and are privy to spiritual knowledge that the rest of us are not privy to – so much so that evidently Seattle NEEDS a new university program to be blessed by him and his ministry (and Chuck needs to have evangelism conferences in Portland because nobody can evangelize in Portland better than Chuck). The patterns of these guys are the same. They know the right way to do things that no one else knows. How fortunate we are to live in the Pacific Northwest with such spiritual arrogance (NOT).
People like Mark Driscoll remind me of dogs who must mark their territory. Until powerful church leaders convince Driscoll’s people that he is a fraud, he will continue marking territory to possess.
Muff Potter wrote:
Yes, wouldn’t it have been lovely if the Israeli religious had decided to go the Ninevah route of repentance? My imagination goes wild, wondering how it might have been. w00t
Daisy wrote:
Much agreement here Daisy and with Schmuley Boteach’s thesis on suffering. I would also carry it further and assert that we, the Church, the Ekklesia, ‘the called out ones’, are to be the real-life balm & the morphine to a hurting world, minus the empty theology that insulates us from their cries.
All this talk of “bad things happen for a reason” reminds me that one of my favourite theologians pointed out:
a) Evil was already present and operating before human sin (serpent in garden lying to/deceiving Eve). No matter how humans “fell” after the fall, this was already a world with evil.
b) the whole cosmos stories of evil (satan as an angel, satan as a sea serpent, satan as a being) all point to greater struggles in the cosmos between evil (chaos/satan) and good (God/God’s angels/Holy Spirit).
c) in a way, looking holistically at the Bible, the forces of Good and Evil have been at odds since pre-human times. Human’s “fall” – which I don’t see as a one-time event, but a generational pattern of rejection of good for evil – just threw us into bondage with the Evil side.
d) Christ paying our ransom to free us from bondage to evil is a far more widespread and longer taught view of Atonement than the idea he had to come and erase our sins to make us worth anything. We sin independently of God’s view of our worth , but as Christians, the view is, we are free of bondage to the evil one/force. Non-Christians, just as ancient slaves, are/were in bondage to their captor(s) and still in need of freeing.
e) the view that this makes Satan and God somehow equal and therefore bunk is refuted in the parables. Jesus tells a parable about the wheat crops that are planted, then the enemy plants weeds in the night. The Angels (servants) ask God (farmer) if they should weed the field, but God’s answer shows this cosmic limit:
Matt. 13:29 ‘“No,” he answered, “because while you are pulling up the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: first collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.”’
It always struck me, in this great battle for our hearts and minds, that God could not just snuff Satan/Evil out, because it may harm the good wheat. It took me a while to understand how God couldn’t just do anything he wanted, including getting the weeds out without hurting the wheat. When I read about the ancient church, it became more clear to me. The enemy has a power over us – due to our sin – that allows him access to us that God can’t refute – at least not in this age. That power over us is granted to him by us, when we chose evil over truth.
So, overall, I view the broken, harmful aspects of earth as present from long before humans showed up – nature itself is hardly “good” and, I suspect, evolution was set on a bad course by Satan/Evil/Chaos once he/it began to rebel against God. There have been about 4 mass extinction events long before humans ever arrived. The new earth will need a radically new evolutionary trajectory – Lion laying down with a Lamb – to be the paradise it promises us it will be. We live in a passing branch of life (modern humans have only been around for about 200,000 years), on a passing planet, in a passing solar system (one Day our sun will grow too hot to sustain life on earth), in a passing galaxy – we can see light from extinct galaxies in the night sky-, in a Universe which is very old, but not eternal.
The new world where Good will triumph will not be so fleeting, it will be far more stable, last into eternity and not be on a death cycle. That can’t happen in this present universe. The whole universe, from pre-human existence, is unstable. We were always born to die, if we weren’t, why would God have offered Adam a “Tree of Life”? It would be highly unnecessary to an immortal creature.
So, it is alway evil when there is death, but it is due to cosmic forces that have been in play from long before we got here. Our call in life is to work against the forces of evil (Chaos, Death, Destruction, Suffering) and begin to stabilize the Chaos and push back on it. I look at all good on this earth as stabilizing evil – from inventing medicine that fights cancers to building codes that prevent collapse during earthquakes as working against the forces of death and destruction. But, with a full awareness that those dark forces are a large part of the tapestry of our Universe and living like we “just need God” to be safe or “everything happens for a reason” is a fatalistic thinking that kept humans in bondage to fear and false gods for millennia and I don’t follow that line of thinking.
@ Patrice:
Patrice, you have articulated this better than I ever could. Thanks. You are spot on
@ Val: There’s a LOT out there in Nature that is good, however. To suggest that it’s all “evil” sticks in my throat, Val.
And I think it unfair to the many innocent creatures who cause no harm to anyone. Can the elements be vicious? Well, yes – my dad went to sea for a living, and that’s a terrifying place much of the time. But it is also the medium of life for a million million (to the power of a million) creatures for whom it provides life and breath and food. And almost all of them cannot survive in *our* home elements.
Maybe think about that for a while.
As for dualism, I must say that I reject it entirely.
@ Janey:
This is so true!
@ Val: I wonder…. have you ever thought about all of the animals and birds (and reptiles and bugs and trees and other plants and who knows what all else) that live their entire lives without any human contact, or minimal human contact at best?
I live in a mountainous area, where human settlement occupies a smallish part of the terrain, and I often think about this.
Are their lives, their needs, their sufferings, their happinesses, their deaths any less meaningful than ours?
I think not.
This world is enormous, containing God alone knows how many species, many of them interdependent. They get along fine without our interference (which often brings death and destruction to them). It’s a BIG world, and despite our relentless insistence that we are the most important creatures here, I suspect we’re fooling ourselves about that.
Not one sparrow falls to the ground… Nineveh had many animals, and God told Jonah that he was concerned about them. The psalms that speak of all creatures giving glory to God (partly just by being) fly in the face of conventional wisdom about us being THE living end of creation. We were made to live in harmony with the rest of the created beings, it seems.
Sorry if it seems like I’m singling you out; I honestly didn’t mean to. But your comment stirred some things in me that are often hard to express on xtian blogs and in face-to-face convos with others, because they’re not views that many evangelicals (and others) accept to any degree. Which is sad, imo, and their loss.
Eagle wrote:
I can relate. I saw and experienced diabolical PREMEDITATED evil done by celebrity pastor(s) who are still worshiped as idols today.
The problem I have with all of this is pretending like those long time believers (some paid quite well to sell Jesus) doing the abusing/evil are examples of Christians just having a bad hair day? Or that their evil was really good since it made some of their victims go deeper? So why not focus on warning folks about Driscoll?
@ Daisy:
You are a mind reader. I planned to use that story tomorrow!
Regarding the problem of suffering and purpose:
I want to jump and and share thoughts but came to the conclusion that I would write a tome so…
I would like to continue this discussion tomorrow. This is a subject that i have wrestled with for decades and have achieved, for myself, some peace but as of yet, have not found all of the answers. I have been restudying some of the Reformed thinking on this matter and do believe that my conclusions are decidedly not Reformed but, in some respects, have similar outcome based actions.
It is similar to my view on complementarianism versus egalitarianism. Recently, the Neo Cal pastors have been having their wives do recorded videos on submission. I have been watching them all for something to help me prove that their outcome is any different than my outcome. They aren’t.
Strange thing. If you were to put me in a room with rabid comp types, and not tell them I was not one of them in theology, and then have them observe my life, they might readily mistake me for one of theirs. They would be dead wrong. This makes me smile because there is a well known pastor, who from the pulpit, (I kid you not), accused the Deebs (the dynamic duo) of advocating that men should not be leaders in the family and that, of course, is evil. This makes the Deebs evil.
If he were to observe my home life, he might be a but surprised because I bet I might come across as comp but I am not. I believe in being a servant and putting others ahead of myself-albeit the fact that I fail regularly- as much as comps do.
More tomorrow.
@ Val:
You made some great points. Evil was present before us and God, capable of wiping it out (as he will one day), did not. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. In some respects this may point to the fact that the angels, created beings, were created with free will. However, for some reason, those that fell will not be part of the redemption.
I believe that this is tied up in the doctrine of free will- an anathema to many today. Have you ever read the sky fy CS Lewis book, Perelandra? It deals with a world that did not fall.
@ dee:
Thanks for the suggestion, I will have to check out CS Lewis’ book – I think my husband has it around here somewhere.
Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:
Oh yeah, yeah you would. Because kicking arses is all you know how to do. Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:
Life’s greatest lesson is love. What will it take for you to learn this Jimmy? I fear for you.
@ numo:
Oh, I am with you on animals being as much God’s creatures as us. I didn’t mean nature was inherently evil, but that evil has been around since before humans walked the earth – not that the animals were the cause of this. THere is indeed great beauty in nature – I see that as the part where the Bible says God saw the world he made and it was good (paraphrasing a little there). Nature and the world was good, beautiful and lovely. However, the Bible also talks about evil forces rising up against God. The earth bears the pain of evil too, I believe, also human evil towards nature. There have been at least 4 mass extinctions where almost all of God’s creatures were almost completely wiped out. One was the rise of oxygen excreting organisms that poisoned the air with oxygen and changed the atmosphere of this planet, yet today, all creature are reliant on those oxygen excreting organisms (past) for our atmosphere and life in it today. Another huge extinction event occurred when a massive volcano erupted and there have been some large meteors (usually burned up in our oxygen-rich atmosphere) that have impacted the earth – thrown it off it’s original axis, completely altering the temperature of the planet, wiping out most of the life on earth. The most recent – but far less catastrophic was the 65 m.y.a. comet that hit the Gulf of Mexico – and ended the reign of the dinosaurs – the only dinos around today are the loveable birds, but the giant bests couldn’t take the fall out from the meteor impact.
So, that has all been very sad for the creatures on this earth. Many creatures that live today are here because they evolved to out compete other similar creatures and obliterate their competition through mass breeding and out food-finding their competitors. Others survived because they were better adapted to the changing environments – feathered, flying dinosaurs, survived the atmospheric changes and are still with us today – feathers for warmth, their light body, due to flight, also required less food in the drastically changing environment, therefore it could survive on less food and stay warm. Bad for the brontosaurs, good for the little flying dinos.
No, I don’t think God wishes them evil or bad either. I think they are as much a victim of evil as we are, maybe moreso, because they have to deal with us (also fallen) as well.
Bill Kinnon wrote:
Hence all of his constant “name dropping” and using those with credibility in Christian circles to bolster his image – like with Piper. Although you’ll notice that Piper hasn’t been mentioned for awhile – Piper’s “church” just isn’t mega enough anymore. At some point, we may even see a guest preaching appearance at Osteen’s gigantic arena, or even Osteen himself showing up at MH Bellevue. Most troubling is how all of these so-called leaders continue to associate and do not call him out, even though they are all well aware of the symptomatic behavior as you mentioned. They all are feeding off of each other. It is all so very sick.
BTW, when will we again be able to partake of insightful expository content at Kinnon.tv again? You have been missed by many.
@ Val: I didn’t think you meant that!
No worries here; was just thinking aloud…
@ Daisy: I like that. Thanks, Daisy.
@ numo:
Numes: I often think of the generation after generation of creatures that lived & died without ever encountering man: including tigers, whales, rhinos, all manner of creatures that are so terribly damaged by our race.
It makes me happy to think of them just living out their lives, just being themselves, with no interference from us.
I know that you & I have a special heart for other beings on the planet, in a way that some Christians just don’t get. Their lives are important too.
Dee, beautifully put. Thanks for sharing. @ dee:
Speaking of the Problem of Evil…did you guys see this video about Sandy Hook?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUR7BFTphmI
Greg Boyd featured it on his blog. After my journey I came to the conclusion that if a person is going to reject God the best and most legitimate way is through the Problem of Evil.
@ Beakerj: It’s one thing to hunt gorgeous African and Asian mammals for subsistence, as people did for a long time. It’s another to slaughter them as is done for money (ivory trade, etc.) or “sport” – as with our N. American bison, which were driven to the brink of extinction by trigger-happy fools. And yet… humans have also played a huge part in the conservation and renewal of the species, so maybe there’s reason for some hope.
Money drives so much suffering – and it’s NOT the kind of suffering that anyone learns from, except to stop inflicting it on others, be they man or beast!
@ Beakerj: for myself, I think there’s another place where all the animals, birds, etc. whose lives were cut short *do* get to live and live well, but I know my view is controversial to many and won’t go into it further at this time.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
That’s for sure. I love this quote from F.F. Bruce,an evangelical scholar:
“I think Paul would roll over in his grave if he knew we were turning his letters into torah.”
John Piper Twitter funnies:
https://twitter.com/JohnPiper/status/415556282322812928
He re-tweets the following message:
“Ladies, any man that interferes with your relationship with the God-Man IS THE WRONG MAN!”
and adds:
“Unless you’re married to him.”
numo wrote:
You are not alone numo. I hope ‘heaven’ can be different for different folks. I have no desire for mansions, streets of gold, or to sing Amazing Grace for 10,000 years. I’d much rather see my cats, dogs & hummingbirds again in a brand new universe somewhere over the rainbow.
Joan wrote:
I just read through that Twitter exchange. Piper’s modified retweet goes along with his permanence view of marriage. He’s basically saying that even if your husband is getting in the way of your relationship with God, because you are married to him, you are stuck with him, so suck it up. (JA translation)
JeffT wrote:
I had no idea Bruce said that. I was thinking it back in the early 90s when I began my journey out of the Calvary Chapel brand of fundamentalism.
@ Muff Potter:
@ numo:
One of my favorite musings of C.S. Lewis is in “The Problem of Pain” (but I could be incorrect on that citation), is regarding the place of cherished animals in the afterlife. He posits whether individual animals or their very essence will be present, given the joy and beauty they provide in this current world.
As a life long equestrian, I’m firmly convinced that a) the horse is simply God’s most beautiful creation and b) heaven will be filled with a lot of horses! 🙂 Couldn’t imagine it any other way.
As to the discussion on evil: I do not share Bent’s current perspective in his essay (though am inspired by his clear passion for walking alongside others in healing).
At this point in my life, coping with a protracted season of suffering due to trauma and loss, I at least finally accept that I’m a changed person because of it, there’s no going back. My journey will henceforth be different because of it. I accept that I have to manage the long term effects of trauma, and some days I actually do just that (whereas most days I just fall on my face in those efforts).
I also know deeply that I’m loved by the Lord even in my dinged-up state and nothing but nothing will alter that. I know that more deeply now than I did before certain stuff happened. So there’s a positive, I suppose – but trust me it’s not happy clappy joy joy joy. Just an increased insight I suppose. But who knows?
Beyond that I have no ability to even ponder the theological question of “why evil” at this point, though I appreciate reading other’s thoughts on the topic on TWW.
Since 15 December I’ve watched a country (South Sudan) where I’ve lived and worked for almost 4 years explode into a sickening frenzy of violence and civil war, in roughly about 7 days, due to a political power struggle.
Reformed theology as I was taught for many years simply has no answer for this type of event that I can stomach. Particularly in this situation, I think Boteach’s words offer me the best solace right now: “our role as humans is not to give meaning to aberrations, but combating them and to healing wounds.”
@ Rafiki: tikkun olam = repairing the world.
Beyond that – S. Sudan – I am so, so sorry. (About the suffering there, very much including yours.) I have no words, since platitudes just don’t work in the face of such horrific cruelty.
Eccl 7:2
A good name is better than a good ointment, And the day of one’s death is better than the day of one’s birth. It is better to go to a house of mourning Than to go to a house of feasting, Because that is the end of every man, And the living takes it to heart. Sorrow is better than laughter, For when a face is sad a heart may be happy.
@ numo:
Yep, repairing the world indeed. I have faith that even in our respective lowest points we can contribute to repairing the world, it doesn’t mean that one has to go out and solve the most intractable problems of humanity.
It can mean simply waking up and being grateful, even in a fleeting moment of hope, for the gift of our own breath! Or smiling at a loved one. Or struggling to be mindful of the suffering of others. That is simply enough for starters, especially when all seems hopeless. Or when the “problem of evil” gets a bit overwhelming.
Best to you and the TWW community for a peaceful 2014!
@ Rafiki: yes.
Btw, I share you love of horses but no longer ride…
Julie Anne wrote:
Interesting… That’s the opposite of what Ezra taught. In Ezra 10:10, the leader of God’s people told them to divorce women who were drawing them away from the Lord:
“Ezra the priest stood up and said:
You have broken God’s Law by marrying foreign women, and you have made the whole nation guilty!Divorce your foreign wives and don’t have anything to do with the rest of the foreigners who live around here.”
@ numo:
I always laugh at myself – I will stare contentedly at even the most unattractive homely “ill-bred” horse standing out in a field with the same degree of happiness as seeing a multi-million dollar racehorse storming down the homestretch at the world’s most prestigious racetrack. There’s just something about equines! 🙂
Plus all horses have the innate ability to make utter fools out of people who are not mindful and respectful while working around them … no wonder that equine therapy can be such a powerful tool.
@ Rafiki: me, too! (Staring.) They all fascinate me; am also big on smaller prey species. Rabbits have much in common with horses, right down to the need for lots of good grass hay, similar digestive systems, and the ability to zoom at high speed (up to 25 mph.).
@ Rafiki: I can’t watch American horse races anymore. Far too many problems with the whole system – Barbaro and others brought that to light, though little has changed, and I think most of the changes are superficial at best.
@ Rafiki:
I seem to recall that Lewis also discusses animals in The Four Loves although I have a tendency to mix up his books. Lewis believed that their would be animals in heaven and he celebrates the love between man and animal. He brings this view to life in The Chronicles of Narnia.
I have no doubt that there will be an infinite variety of animals in heaven, including, perhaps, those animals which have gone extinct in this world. It is important, however, to acknowledge that the pug dogs will rule them all. 🙂 (Final sentence placed here at the behest of Lilly, Petunia and Tulip.)
dee wrote:
LOL pugs are indeed Ministers of Happiness in the here and now, so its not farfetched to think in another life they’ll be wise benevolent rulers. 🙂
Seneca “j” Griggs. wrote:
Well I know I feel like weeping every time you write something. Do you know what a dementor is Jimmy?
Janey wrote:
Allow me to briefly play “Pipers Advocate”:
Ezra told MEN to put away wives who were usurping the men’s God-given Masculinity. The men were abdicating their leaderly headship by LETTING the foreign wives draw them away from the Lord. Therefore, the voice of Ezra had a masculine feel, and the women are loving this. Jewish WOMEN didn’t have foreign husbands, so they’d have been violating their God-given femininity to put away their husbands, even if their headships were drawing them away from the Lord by smacking them around a little (or asking foreign women in their BACK yards for directions to the airport) for a season. But if hubby was asking for threesomes, it’d be OK to put him away for a season without violating her bodyship.
PiperAdvocate now OFF.
Anon wrote:
If I hadn’t woken up with a stupidity-inducing head cold, it might have been today. 🙂 Thanks Anon. Your encouragement is appreciated.
Nancy–totally appreciate your post re how the SBC has changed.
Dee–excellent comments you make about suffering and redemption of suffering. Really appreciate them as a mom who has also watched a child suffer devastating illness.
Seneca “j” Griggs wrote:
Seriously, Jimmy, I would love to hear your interpretation of Biblescriptures which indicate something– anything like “fall in order to grow”. There may be some which I don’t recall yet. This quote from an unknown modern writer may be “inspirational”, but it is not the word of God.
Let me interpret the first Scripture you quoted. In 2 Cor 11 Paul describes many sufferings he endured for Christ’s sake, and the Gospel’s. Nowhere does he mention these as a way to “know”, to “grow”, to “gain” or to learn “lessons”. He suffered for the sake of others.
Paul does talk in other passages about Knowing, Growing, Gaining, and Learning– Eph 4 is one. What sort of things does he command the Ephesians there, to promote these ends?
Humility, patience, tolerance, diligence, unity, truth-speaking, purity, holiness, selflessness, honesty, labor, generosity, forgiveness, etc. No command to suffer, but in short, a command to walk in LOVE (Eph 5:2).
@ Dave A A:
. . . and suffering for Christ’s sake and the Gospel IS NOT the same as suffering at the hands of abusive pastors, parents, spouses, religious systems so that they can continue to do evil. I wish people would stop acting like all suffering is equal. I do believe that God can, and often does, turn what was meant for evil into good, but that doesn’t mean we are to pursue suffering as some seem to imply. How twisted is that when we are actually instructed to pursue righteousness, peace, and joy, in the Holy Spirit.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
“We have bought into the idea that “Christlike” means passive, other-worldy and serene, and that any emotion that disturbs the peace or makes us uncomfortable is “un-Christlike”. It’s OK to speak out against vague, general ideas like “sin” and “injustice”, but if we get angry at specific injustices or sins that we have witnessed, we’re being “un-Christlike”.”
+++++++++++++++++++++
I quite agree. Too much docile Jesus art influence over the centuries, culminating in the film “Jesus of Nazareth”. I think “what would Jesus do” really means “what would Robert Powell have done, circa 1977?”, and that ethereal, smiley passivity has become a model of sorts.
I like to remember that Jesus sneezed, had a runny nose, had hangnails, zits, bad breath, at least once told a joke and the punch line fell flat, at least once made a social misstep and thought “yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away, but-then-I-had-to-open-my-big-mouth and now it looks as though they’re here to stay, oh I believe in yes-ter-day”. and got hella pissed off now and then, too.
@ Muff Potter:
JeffT wrote:
That’s for sure. I love this quote from F.F. Bruce,an evangelical scholar:
“I think Paul would roll over in his grave if he knew we were turning his letters into torah.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
…saying, “guys… i was getting over food poisoning when i wrote that. i wasn’t communicating well at all.”
@ Seneca “j” Griggs.:
Proverbs 25:20
Like one who takes away a garment on a cold day, or like vinegar poured on a wound, is one who sings songs to a heavy heart.
dee wrote:
It’s mentioned in the Bible.
Revelation 19:11
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.
Revelation 19:14
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.
I assume this refers to the new heaven and new earth:
Isaiah 11:6
The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
__
“God: Who Comforts Us In All Our Affliction?”
hmmm…
(Thanx! Dave AA)
Sweet!
In Second Corinthians chapter eleven, Paul, the Apostle, describes the many sufferings he had to endure for Christ’s sake, and the Gospel, as well.
(sadface)
Nowhere does he mention these as a way to “know”, to “grow”, to “gain” or to learn “lessons”…
What?
He suffered for the sake of others!
huh?
Paul DOES talk in other passages about Knowing, Growing, Gaining, and Learning, and Ephesians chapter four, is one example.
(Expanded)
Q: What sort of things does he command the Ephesians there, to promote these ends?
hmmm…
Ans: Humility, patience, tolerance, diligence, unity, truth-speaking, purity, holiness, selflessness, honesty, labor, generosity, forgiveness, And so forth…
(bump)
He certainly issued NO command ‘to SUFFER’, but in short,he issued a command (Eph 5:2) to ‘WALK IN LOVE’ .
YaHooooooo!
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our affliction so that we will be able to comfort those who are in any affliction with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God…” ~ 2 Corinthians 1:3-4
hum, hum, hum…
“Blue skys, talk’in bout blue skys… ”
…Righteousness, Peace, N’ Joy, In Da Holy Ghost!
(grin)
YeHaaaaaaaa!
“I only know what I can see,
So I imagine what could be,
Where the horizon cuts the air,
Look for me out there…
Someday Ill touch the blue blue sky! . ~ Alan Parsons
Sopy
___
Ref: @ Dave A A
Inspiration: Maranatha! Singers – “Glorify Thy Name”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pqqj0XFgK9c
Bonus: Star Trek: Nemesis – “Blue Skies ”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S02T1j9qzwg
Just Because: Alan Parsons – “Blue, Blue Sky #1”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbmMeJa8bO4
;~)
—
@ Daisy:
Thank you Daisy! I didn’t feel like looking up scriptures that state opposite positions, though we all know they are there. Maybe some day Seneca will learn to evaluate circumstances (including suffering) on an individual basis.
@ Beakerj:
I quoted him Proverbs 25:20 above.
I think he fails to grasp context and timing.
As I said in a post above yesterday, if you are the one undergoing a difficulty or painful ordeal, you do not want to hear religious platitudes.
The book of Job demonstrates this, that it is wrong and insensitive for religious people to attempt to give theological (or any type of) answers for suffering, to blame the sufferer.
The New Testament says to “weep with those who weep,” not, “scold the sufferer, tell her you know why tragedy befell her.”
I know I repeat myself on this blog and others (and I apologize), but again, I have grown to pretty much detest Romans 8:28, because anytime in my life I have gone through pain, some Christian somewhere always wants to quote that at me, or, if not me directly, I hear preachers on TV use that particular verse over and over when giving sermons about suffering.
IMO, Romans 8:28 is somewhat the all purpose, Christian-ese equivalent to the secular platitude, “When life hands you a lemon, make lemonade,”
Or, “What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.”
I’m not saying people cannot learn from tragedies in life, or grow stronger from them, but I personally do not find those expressions or trite responses comforting when I’m in the midst of a painful episode of life.
I’d rather the person sit with me quietly as I weep, or pat me on the hand and say, “I am so sorry.” –That sort of thing I find comforting; hearing platitudes, no.
@ Bridget:
I left a post for Beaker saying much the same thing you did (right above this post), but it’s in mod.
I started it by saying, “I think he [Seneca] fails to grasp context and timing.”
I have heard of people who cannot read other people’s facial expressions, moods, or subtle social clues, so they respond inappropriately.
IMO, Seneca, by his insistence on preaching the idea that “Suffering is awesome!!,” even to people who say they find that notion and rhetoric painful when they are suffering, is the internet version of one of those people. (And I don’t mean to say that to insult people with that condition – Asperger’s?)
I’m just saying he (Seneca) doesn’t seem able to read other people’s emotions online, or just disregards their feelings.
Beakerj wrote:
I’ll pass; what’s a dementor ( I suppose I could google it but I’d rather her your description interpretation.)
Daisy wrote:
I couldn’t agree more. I feel like my replies to him have been snappy & probably not very helpful (& certainly not showing the love I complain he lacks) but almost everything he says here is to make an unpleasant point, taking a pop at the commenters’ ideas, hopes & fears, or some hideous attempt to make something totally secondary (letter of the law, reputation of the church) more important than the welfare of abused kids. It would indeed appear that feelings & emotions are discountable for him – despite the fact that God created them & Christ had them.
@ Beakerj:
I agree 🙂
(My post to you above is still sitting in mod.)
(off topic)
If there was a Mark Driscoll post still on the front page of TWW, I would have posted it there, but since there is not:
A New Front In The Driscoll Plagiarism Wars? Twagiarism
It looks as though Driscoll (sans citation or RT) used a quote by someone tweeting under the name “Bill Murry” (as in the actor. I’m not clear if that is the actual actor or someone tweeting under Murray’s name).
A few other people also used the same quote in their tweets.
There are many things I actually feel great compassion over, like the loss of one’s child. Surely that’s been my greatest dread through-out my adult life. I have immense compassion and empathy who have lost their child. ( I haven’t .)
*
BUT if 10 years after you left an SGM church you’re still writing comments about how it’s ruined you life, To put it bluntly, I’ve got ZIP empathy for you. At this point you have CHOSEN to remain in the mire and you dig the rut a little deeper every day.
You have CHOSEN to hang onto the rotting carcass of victimization. You’ve got a choice; hang onto the victimization/bitterness or ask God to help you let it go because it is a CANCER in your life. I say, make a healthy choice and that the bitterness of the past go – with God’s help.
*
If I was a counselor, that’s what I’d ultimately tell them. Let it go, it’s time to move on.
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For others of you who have great wounds in your past, but not a SGM membership, my counsel would be the same. I try, with only varying degrees of success, to let go of painful things in my past. I don’t want the cancer of bitterness to rule my life.
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HOWEVER If 20 years hence you still tear up about the loss of your child, I am right there with you. That’s worthy of a tear throughout the rest of your life if you want. ( Actually a divorce forced upon you by your spouse can also be worthy of sadness or a tear or two. But not the bitterness – that you’ve got to let go.)
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So, I’m not without compassion – unless you’re busy writing your 500th post about the evils of SGMs churches. Then you’ve lost me.
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As Solomon said, there is great sadness in life. And then we die. But hopefully you die surrounded by friends and family, not screaming foul curses at C.J. Mahaney with your last breath.
@ Sopwith: Sopy…thank you.
Dee – – -TWW is still up and running for me.
@ elastigirl: Oh, I love this + your next comment. You’re in fine form today, elastigirl! 🙂
@ dee: I fear that will displease the Queen Empress of the Known World, though she might consent to share her throne with Tulip. 😉
And believe me, she’s got plenty of company in them thar green fields yonder! Pugs must learn the etiquette of the court or else.
Dee and I have been Twittering. Evidently she’s not able to long on here and they are working to resolve the problem. So, i guess if you’re able to read this, don’t change anything 🙂
Hopefully the Deebs will be back here shortly. Here is our Twitter conversation you can follow: https://twitter.com/wartwatch/status/417804429912338432
I’ll tell her she can leave updates there as well. Feel free to jump in on the conversation (and maybe offer condolences).
@ Julie Anne:
Carry on, y’all! I’m headed to dinner in San Antonio! Happy New Year to all!
Amy – San Antonio? Why don’t you check in on Vision Forum for us while you’re at it? 🙂
Happy New Year, friend!
Wisdom from Budweiser –
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“Let it go Louie, let it go.”
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMfg-cR0jKE
@ Julie Anne:
Deebs are blocked from their own blog but the rest of us aren’t — very odd, kinda of comical to me anyway. Probably not so comical to them . . . just frustrating I imagine.
Julie Anne wrote:
Well, I am staying in Boerne so I’ll keep an ear out.
Daisy wrote:
I agree with this and with an observation from Rabbi Kushner (“Why Bad Things Happen to Good People”). His beloved son died at age 11 with that “premature aging” syndrome. Paraphrasing, he said, “I believe that my son’s suffering and death have made me a better person and a better rabbi — more compassionate, more understanding, and more patient. And I would give all of that, in one second. to have my son alive again.”
@ Bridget:
So true!
@ HLee: yes.
1 comment not approved.
@ Sopwith:
Tanks, Sopy! Wish I had time to say more, but especially liked B4 singing da Blue Skys! And how Data laid down his “life” for his friends from Planet Earth! No greater love hath a Man…
Anon 1 wrote:
“Nowhere do we tempt so successfully as at the very foot of the altar!”
— Screwtape
Julie Anne wrote:
Gnostic = “He Who KNOWS Things”.
Occult = “Hidden, Secret”, speshul sekrit knowledge known only to a spiritually-privileged, specially-anointed few.
Seneca–I agree with you about the necessity of actually healing at some point. We’ve suffered a good bit of tragedy in our lives……some would make quite the soap opera. But at some point you just have to make the decision to turn the bad guys over to God and start living again.
I had a dear friend who was addicted to both whisky and cocaine many years ago. His wife had her own problems. They became part of the recovery movement, which was a Godsend to them and brought them to the Lord and to healing. Unfortunately, his wife settled into the “recovering” whatever mode for life. He still attends meetings, but has moved on emotionally. Don’t have to hear about his rotten childhood or bad health or whatever every time you see him. Do from his wife.
She has settled for being in recovery, always suffering. He decided the whole point of recovery was to feel good again, and does.
Something to ponder. So yeah, if someone hurt your feelings 20 years ago–just your feelings, didn’t assault you or molest you or whatever–rant about it for a little while and then please, for your own sake, forgive, and move on!
linda wrote:
The vast majority of people who have come to this blog fit into the assault, molest, whatever category. That is precisely the problem. Long term studies that have been done on people who have been molested show life long affects. Women who have been raped can experience PTSD throughout their lives.
One of the now adult children who was molested in the SGM scandal (that pedophile wen to jail) has needed intensive therapy and multiple hospitalizations.
Now, I, on the other hand, confronted a mishandled pedophile situation at a former church and was treated poorly by the pastors and elders. I have dealt with it. Written about it and have little lingering issues except for a bit of mistrust for those who claim to be “in charge” at churches. However, to compare my issue with those who have been deeply harmed would be ridiculous.
It is also of value to understand that we all have different emotional makeup and strength. Some bounce back. Lots of studies have been done on the rare people who emerge from poverty and abuse virtually unscathed. They call those folks “survivors.”
I have found that, just as God has given us different gifts and talents, He has given us different personalities and emotional quotients. I look at each person as an individual and try to see through their eyes as they discuss their pain. One size rarely fits all.
Once again, i do not believe that the vast majority of people that have come here are ranting about Billy who hurt their feelings.
Dee–I didn’t say the vast majority here are ranting about Billy who hurt their feelings, did I??
I fully agree with and recognize what you just wrote. However, there is a degree of truth in what Seneca has said, even if it hurts some feelings.
People do indeed have varying amounts of emotional strength. One person may indeed recover from being mistreated sooner than another person does.
However, there does come a point where all our venting (and I DO vent also) moves from needed lancing of the boil to just plain old hurtful picking of the scab. I don’t believe it is healthy for the victim of someone else’s sin (such as murder, rape, molestation, gossip, spite, etc) to get stuck in the mode of “I cannot get better until that person repents, apologizes, and gets punished.” That puts the victim squarely in victim mode. Rather, I believe we have the responsibility to tell the story to those in authority such as police, etc. I believe we have the responsibility to be the squeaky wheel for a reasonable time. But for the sake of the victim’s sanity, I believe it is OK to encourage them eventually to move on.
To my knowledge I’ve never been in an SGM church, and surely don’t want to! But I was twice part of SBC churches taken over by men following much of those teachings. I’ve shared with you and others some of the pain and spiritual damage that did. If anybody asks me if those actions they did were wrong, sinful, or hurtful, they will get an earful.
Thanks to learning here and at Pastor Wade’s blog, those men have now been confronted. And guess what? I’ve encountered one of the rare situations (actually two) where the men had ALREADY realized their actions of the past were wrong and hurtful. They have changed their behavior, and HAVE apologized to any and all they may have hurt. Now, I have no intention of ever being a member where they pastor, but neither do I feel it necessary to tattle to everyone I meet about their past sins.
Were they not repentant, I would have no qualms warning anyone I knew to avoid them. But I would not feel obliged to chase them down and make them miserable.
Not for their sakes. For mine. I’ve given myself permission to evaluate their actions as wrong, confront them, move on, and do what I need to do to be healthy.
I think that was why Jesus taught us to be willing to forgive. Forgiveness isn’t condoning their sinful actions toward me. It is giving it to God and trusting Him with any needed justice.
Hard to explain, I know. But it seems to me on par with those who grow up in abusive homes. Some who seek treatment to overcome it are encouraged by counselors to stay stuck at the “feel the pain” mode. Other counselors encourage their patients to go THROUGH the “feel the pain” mode to come out the other side happier and stronger than they would be if they got stuck.
Or as one country song put it, “If you’re walking through hell, keep on walking.”
@ dee:
That’s kind, generous and accurate. Thanks Dee!
I hope the wedding is going all glories today and that you are enjoying it too.
@ linda: One quick think: mercy triumphs over judgment.
linda wrote:
I don’t think you mean it so, but it appears you are saying we should not work for justice but let God take care of it all. As a community, we have the responsibility to make sure that perpetrators do not continue in their behavior, so that more damage isn’t done. And the perpetrators need to be relieved of positions of leadership, for their own sake, so they can learn to “make straight paths for their lame feet”. You agree with most of this, I think?
But we also need to work at dismantling systems that allow abusive individuals into places of leadership, and set better ones into place. In order to do this, we need to be very clear about how/why problematic systems were established in the first place. These are complex issues and they cannot be addressed in a community that, for the most part, doesn’t want to face the harm that has been already done. Which is why we need reporters such as Deebs, who keep the harm in our faces until we stop trying to squiggle out of the work that needs doing.
Survivors walk similar paths but at the individual level. After attending to our own wounds (and the amount of time required for it varies, most significantly by the depth/breadth of the wound), I agree that, in the end, forgiveness towards someone who refuses to face his/her wrongs means leaving the perpetrator and also leaving him/her to God. As you say, this is done so that the survivor can get on with life, while also feeling confident that justice will be served in the end, as they could not make happen by their own best efforts. Through God, all things will be made whole and nothing will be wasted.
linda wrote:
I have not read anyone on this site who is stuck in such a way. Maybe you are thinking of someone in your life who is like that? They are out there, although not as many as sometimes people assume.
For those who’ve been deeply hurt (I mean years of damage and often on top of abuse done to them when children), there will be permanent damage. This is a very difficult thing for everyone to face, but believe me, it is most difficult for those who have to bear it. It is not the same thing as continuing in poor mental/spiritual health. Learning to manage damage is worlds different than being stuck in a perpetual whine.
__
Your Religion Is Doing More Than Smoking: “Only You Can Prevent Spiritual Abuse?”
..referencing Linda’s comment
hmmm…
Don’t be a spiritual abuse victim,
If you’re walking through SGM, (Oh! My!) quickly look for the exit.
(IMHO) You’ll be very glad you did!
Skreeeeeeeeeetch!
(bump)
crash!
“You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used against you in a court of law. You have a right to an attorney. If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.”
(sadface)
Sopy
—
Julie Anne wrote:
Can you get physiotherapy for that, or is it just something you have to live with?
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well, I guess as long as either one of us is following each other, we’ll have to live with it, Nick.
@ Patrice:
beautiful. not a word wasted, not a word left out.
@ elastigirl: indeed.
@ Sopwith: dude, thank you for telling it like it is.
Linda, Sopy knows whereof he speaks.
linda wrote:
And sometimes that hell does such a job on people that they are permanently injured. That’s when it gets messy. Many Christians believe that”if you pray, you will get over it” within a time frame set, of course. by the person who knows better and believes someone “should get over it.”
The problem is knowing the difference and that is where good counselors with in-depth training are valuable. Thankfully, all of the counselors that I have known are well trained and I do not know any that encourage a person to stay stuck in pain if they can help them to move on.
I am so glad to hear how things worked out for you. I only wish more Christian leaders would know when to apologize. It might help with the droves of Christians becoming disaffected from the church.
Patrice wrote:
I wouldn’t say I’m stuck in some of my issues from the last few years, but I’m still working through them. 🙂
I do not want to stay in wounded-ville indefinitely. Getting out is easier said than done, though, especially when you had to go it alone and still do.
I kind of see what Linda is saying. I have met people online who went through something horiffic, or trivial, and they are, many years later, still in a victim mindset, or very angry, or the banned “b” word, etc.
On the other hand, everyone works through stuff at their own pace, so I’m not fond of people rushing other people through their stages of anger/ hurt/ grief, telling them “snap out of it, stop the pity party” etc.
Since it’s the nearest relevant place to post an update, managed to number crunch the Fy2012 and FY2013 reports for MHC (the FY2013 report was formerly available and is now a bit hard to find and the year-end update was given by Sutton Turner rather than Mark Driscoll, potentially telling in itself)
http://wenatcheethehatchet.blogspot.com/2014/01/mars-hill-church-comparing-fy2012.html
It looks like average attendance has gone down by 844 people and despite gaining 1377 new members the net growth of formal members was just sixty people. The 35.1% number of people at MH who gave $0 in the last fiscal year is the highest ratio of non-givers in the last four to five years of annual report results. Precisely why the FY2013 annual report was made publicly available and then not may be a little less mysterious after the comparison of numbers has been made, but that’s just some blogger’s opinion.
Hey Dee and Deb, have you guys read this plea to Mark Driscoll written by Jared Wilson over at G.C.?
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/2013/12/18/re-mark-driscoll/
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This is the rule, of course, for congregants who function primarily as victims of the leader’s sadistic tendencies–they must be passive, serene sheep–of course in the case of leaders such as Mr. Driscoll, there is no such prohibition expressing anger and extreme violence, “goin’ Old Testament” on people is I think a way in which Driscoll expresses it.
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Suffering – remember Joseph “you meant it for evil, God meant it for good.” It does not excuse the perpetrators of evil, but certainly indicates that if are willing to seek God in times of suffering, we can grow spiritually through those experiences. After all, it is through suffering and the trying of our faith that we move on toward Christian maturity. Again, it does not excuse the sin of the individual, but it does place the responsibility upon us for our response. I’ve been there.