If a rhinoceros were to enter this restaurant now, there is no denying he would have great power here. But I should be the first to rise and assure him that he had no authority whatever." GK Chesterton link
Plenty of room for the new Christians (Seats)
Last night, as I talked with a thoughtful, soft-spoken former member of Countryside, I was struck by a thought. Where is the Acts 29 leadership in the midst of this? They make many claims of support on the website but, when something bad happens, they appear to take a powder. It appears that they continue to promote the pastor involved. What is the motivation behind this? Darned if I know but they must like the guy if he is on the website.
This sort of a situation cries out for leadership but the leadership is publicly silent. Folks, be sure to remember this when your church gets involved with Acts 29. You may find the vaunted leaders of this network missing in action when a screw up occurs.
I was impressed by the demeanor of the gentleman who spoke with me. When he learned of our widespread readership, he asked if I would use a pseudonym for his name. He said that everyone in Michigan City will know who he is as they read this. He answered my questions graciously, in a matter of fact, unemotional manner. In fact, he was calm even when he told me of the "plundering like Moses" incident. That incident will cause most of you, including me, to choke on your coffee.
As of now, we plan to continue to outline the story for our readers today, Friday, and Monday. On Friday we shall address the "elephant in the room." Since the two of us hold MBA's, we view this as a case study, the basis for many MBA classes. On Wednesday, we will review the pertinent facts with an eye to helping our readers to be wise as serpents when confronted by similar organizations and actions. Next Friday, we plan to do a TWW Tutorial in "How to read a website for red flags." I think my old professors would have a huge smile as I apply B school analysis to church successes and failures.
So "Buck," as I shall call him (great idea, Deb), and I discussed a number of issues that I shall present separately. He hopes that his experience will help others.
Buck was involved with the finances of the church. He is a businessman with a great deal of experience. He wrote a letter to the church, in response to an article in the local newspaper. That article, which has already been mentioned, is titled Countryside to *celebrate* new name, location link. As you will see, it was hardly a celebration.
Countryside was the biggest church in Michigan City at the time of the Acts 29 conversion.
Michigan City, Indiana, according to the 2010 census, was a town of 31,479 people link. In its heyday, Countryside reportedly had an attendance of over 1000.
The *metrics* of the decimation
In his letter to the church titled The Rest of the Story, Buck outline the *metrics.* 2008 was the year that Galloway took over the reigns and the decline happened immediately.
- 2008 837
- 2009 657
- 2010 530
- 2011 312 (when the letter was written) with an expected continuing decline
Yet Acts 29 stresses the high success rate of their church plants.
Mark Driscoll said of Acts 29 link
For those planters in Acts 29 who had been assessed, approved, and have become full members, the viability rate is 98.4 percent.
On the current Acts 29 website, they tout link:
97.9% Planter success rate
Since Kevin Galloway is still listed on the website as a church planter, I would assume that he is included in that success rate. So, this raises a question. What in the world is considered a success? If this is it, then I think Acts 29 needs to take another look at their criteria.
People jumping ship is to be expected.
At Acts 29, they say that church planters need to be prepared for people jumping overboard link.
Once affirmed, lead fearlessly through the rough waters, people jumping overboard, sea sickness, and mutiny among the crew. Many people (including leaders and even spouses) will become disoriented, discouraged, and dissenting. Lead the body patiently, lovingly, but firmly – just as Jesus would. But don't lead fearful of losing popularity, friendship, or a comfortable, secure job
If you complain about the takeover, then you might be compared to a hungry lion. From the same article:
Follow God's calling even if it threatens being tossed into the lion's den (Daniel 6). God will shut the mouths of the hungry lions (and disgruntled members) if He is calling you to replant a missional church for His glory.
Basically, you are expected to put up, put out and shut up as the church is essentially decimated. Such language on the Acts 29 website is ill advised and, unfortunately, show with whom their sympathies side. It is not with the people, but the planter. Remember this, folks.
Binny's Beverage Depot Update: Does Acts 29 really need booze for their boot camp?
Buck informed me that the $288 charge for Binny's (which he refers to as a liquor store) was for an Acts 29 Boot Camp taking place in Chicago. He said he thought that Galloway was the one assigned to bring the drinks which were charged to the church. This raises an important question. Is the purchasing of liquor on the church dime for the consumption by the Acts 29 boot camp boys now a requirement or strongly encouraged?
Another church plant failed prior to the start of the all new improved version of Countryside.
According to Buck, during the time period prior to the church name change, another church plant, started by Galloway in Valparaiso, Indiana, 24 miles away, failed. This church met in a rented hall which was inexpensive. However, Galloway reportedly insisted on renting in office in the area which was quite expensive. Questions were raised about the wisdom of this decision.
Acts 29 demands that current churches in the network plant other churches. It appears that Galloway was gung ho to do so, even though the main church was in a nosedive. Buck explained that the number of attendees at the plant were artificially inflated. Galloway reportedly counted the people from Countryside who would go with him to the meetings on Sunday evening. Therefore, people who were members of Countryside who came there in the evening were counted twice. Buck said that even the children were counted as well.
Kevin Galloway's salary, perks and charges
Buck reports that Galloway's salary was $60,000 plus another $50,000 as a housing allowance which allows for a tax deduction. After he became the head pastor, he also insisted on a $840/month whole life policy as well.
The median household income for this area is $48,669 link Without taking into consideration the tax benefits of the housing allowance, Galloway was earning 2.3x the average income for his area while he was driving the church membership into the ground.
As the church credit card got maxed out, Galloway claimed that he had inherited the maxed out card from the previous pastor. However, Buck said that the church had always paid off the card's monthly balances since the pastors only used the card for expenses such as mission trips, etc. Oddly, on this card were charges for things like @$20,000 in office furniture, a nice bike and eyeglasses.
The church building is lost to foreclosure: Did you know that because Moses plundered the Egyptians, we can plunder our churches?
In 2011, Buck states that only 147 tithing families were left and some of those were also planning to jump ship. So, the church mortgage, which was easily handled in the past, could no longer be paid. In addition, the church credit card was maxed out at @$40,000. Buck says that Galloway continued to blame his predecessor. Unfortunately, the day arrived in which the remaining little band of church replanters could no longer manage the mortgage and they defaulted. The bank took possession. Did you know that banks are "foreclosing on churches in record numbers?" link
Darned funny thing happened. We had been told previously that everything inside the church that was not bolted down was removed by Galloway and the remaining church members. Now, I do not know much about defaulting, so I asked Buck the following question. "When you default, are you not ethically supposed to leave the contents of the facility there so the repossessor (the bank) could attempt to recoup some of their losses?"
Buck said that he thought so as well. He reports that Galloway gave a sermon in which he implied that since Moses was told by God to plunder the Egyptians when they left Egypt, that Christians can do the same thing in this sort of circumstance. I started coughing and laughing at the same time and asked him to repeat what he had said since I could not believe it.
Buck said that, in response, the pastor and members removed everything that was not bolted down which included a range, refrigerator, tables, chairs, sound system, computers, etc. I do not know if this is legal in Indiana but I do question the ethics behind the decision.
Was Galloway just channeling Mark Driscoll who also admits to stealing link?
“Our church services started to stink a whole lot less. We scraped together enough money to buy some big honking speakers, and I stole an unused sound console from my old church along with a projection screen, which were sins that Jesus thankfully died to forgive.” (Confessions, p.62)
We never paid for electricity in our office apartment because the building was illegally hooked up to the power grid and all our power was stolen.” (Confessions, p.125)
Digression: does anyone know if Driscoll ever made restitution for the above?
Name change from Countryside to Christ Church.
Acts 29 recommends a name change when replanting a church link. However, from what I read, this is when a replant takes over a failing church and wants to rebrand itself as young and hip. In this instance, Acts 29 took over a healthy, vibrant church and drove it into the ground.
Let's take a look at how Galloway represents himself and the church he led into the ground. All comments are from this link at Acts 29 which continues to feature Galloway as a "certified" Acts 29 church leader.
1. It was their members of the formerly successful church who were to blame since, of course, Galloway knew the correct changes to be made and they, the great unwashed, did not.
The biggest challenges faced were that of folks resisting changes to an established 30 year old church. Many of those folks ultimately left to attend churches that offered them more of what they were used to
2. They needed room for new Christians. (They sure got it-the building was empty!)
thus making room for people coming to faith for the very first time.
3. His advice for new church planters which he should have taken himself.
"Are you confident in your calling and has this calling been affirmed?" If not, run away because this role can kill you, your marriage, and the church you are trying to lead.
4. He believes his church decimation is a sign of God's grace.
We've been through so much as we have led Countryside through deep change. In that, we have lost friends and relationships. God has provided so much strength and grace to lead us and confirm God's calling in our lives. He has surrounded us with wonderful elders and staff to partner and endure with. To be honest and not cheesy-Acts 29 is an evidence of that grace.
Buck claims that over 70% of the former membership are still worshipping God but in different churches. In other words, the replant didn't get rid of deadwood but vibrant members of the body of Christ who, in spite of Galloway's measures, continue to serve Him even while they mourn over the loss of their church which was well known and respected in that community. On Friday, we will continue to explore this story in more depth.
Update 12/11/13 10:30PM EST TWW has left a message for Kevin Galloway at his church, offering him an opportunity to respond to this series.
Lydia's Corner: Isaiah 19:1-21:17 Galatians 2:1-16 Psalm 59:1-17 Proverbs 23:13-14
Just curious about all the staff during this conversion to an Acts 29 church. How many original staffers are still around since Galloway took the helm? I’m guessing few, if any.
@ Cassie: I don;t believe anyone is left but I will check. However, there is a humorous side to this story which we will cover on Monday. You see, the pastor has started his own school for leadership. This is not a joke.
Is this the fundagelical equivilent to post Katrina looting? 😛
So this guy had a $60K income plus a $50K housing allowance–you know of course that pastoral housing allowances are exempt from federal taxes, so pastors do this dodge of having their income divvied up like this so they can take advantage of the tax-free benefits. Which, of course, those of us who have secular jobs don’t get that same benefit. It’s worth noting that a federal judge in Wisconsin ruled the tax exemption on pastoral housing allowances unconstitutional late last month. (The ruling is currently stayed pending an expected appeal.)
Considering the religiously-laden history of the legislation (enacted per the Congressional Record because of the threat of Godless Communism in 1954–which runs smack dab into “Congress shall make no law”), as well as this blatant *abuse*, I’m not sorry the judge found against the tax exemption. It’s these kinds of games with money that have put me firmly into the “tax the churches” camp. Then again, I lived in Salt Lake City for seven years and the annoyance at seeing choice parcels off the tax rolls because of a certain large institution which dominates local politics is nothing short of irritating.
The whole story, by the way, is really disgusting. You have to wonder if they’re in it for Jesus, preaching salvation or to just make money. I know I’m wondering.
Eagle wrote:
Wow and I thought I was being blunt…
Oh, by the way, the Slate website has an article about Mark Driscoll and plagiarism.
http://www.slate.com/articles/life/faithbased/2013/12/mark_driscoll_plagiarism_accusations_janet_mefferd_accused_the_seattle_pastor.html?wpisrc=burger_bar
Old-Calvinist megadittos, Wartburg Watch! Long time reader, first time commenter.
From Kevin Galloway’s personal/ministry website, http://www.kevingalloway.com: “Kevin is … the Network Director of the Acts 29 Central Midwest. He is a pastor/coach to numerous pastors around the country.”
So Kevin has apparently been rewarded with even greater authority and honor within A29 to leaven his poisonous wares even further despite his obviously not-unknown record to network brass. Just as Driscoll said, “I am all about blessed subtraction. There is a pile of dead bodies behind the Mars Hill [Countryside] bus (chuckle), and by God’s grace, it’ll be a mountain by the time we’re done… You either get on the bus, or you get run over by the bus.” There’s a 30% of Countryside-size mountain there in Michigan City with Kevin’s fingerprints on each and every one.
Father, please grant repentance or take him and all like-minded wolves out. Lord Jesus, come quickly, save your Church!
Where is the leadership?
1) Defending CORRECT DOCTRINE.
2) PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY.
Eagle wrote:
“Just like Post-Katrina Looting, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”
And anyone who says so is Put Under Church Discipline(TM).
I wanted to send Dee and Deb a best-seller as a Christmas present. Have they got a P.O. Box? I’ll autograph the book myself.
A book advising newly-wed women on how to be “submissive” has become a publishing phenomenon in Spain while outraging feminists who have called for it to be banned.
The polemic book by married Italian author Costanza Miriano titled ‘Cásate y sé sumisa – Get Married and Be Submissive – was published by the Catholic Arbishopric of the southern city of Granada in November and soared up the bestseller list.
The evangelical culture is an absolute mess. What a terrible witness to the watching world. This is the the kind of thing that keeps Christians, such as myself, from desiring to ever set foot in a church building again
Sort of related, but I do believe that a federal judge recently ruled that tax exempt parsonages are unconstitutional. Not sure if this will stand. It’s a double edged sword. I have no problem with pastors who are legit recieving this break (as I believe the average pastor isn’t raking it in like the mega church big boys), and not having this might cause financial hardship for some. I’m thinking of my old pastor, in particular. He had a full time job in addition to pastoring a pretty popular church, and his family certainly wasn’t well off.
Nice to know the shady ones will be losing out on a chunk of change though, if this goes through.
__
Wartburg,
How can their be any safeguards if those named on the church property documents want to pursue an Acts 29 ‘replanting’ with their current ‘managed’ assets?
Sopy
—
Also, just FYI, my husband and I finally decided to leave our Acts 29 church in this city and look for a new home. I really credit you gals for helping us get relevant information in regards to this organization! It helped make our decision easier.
In short, Acts29/Galloway are leeches, sucking the lifeblood and money out of the church. How many other other churches is Galloway bleeding? Makes me sick knowing that there are many REAL ministers that struggle to survive financially.
Wow even I did not know how rotten Kevin did us all until now. I am grateful that Buck took a stand and gave you this information. And angry that this liar blamed Pastor Rick Jones and the men before him for his financial mess. Pastor Rick is a man of God who diligently served him at Countryside for many years. He was good to me and Brian for many years, and we have NOTHING but respect for him. He never would have left the mess at Countryside for another Pastor to deal with. Kevin Galloway disgusts me!
I think this quote from the linked 2011 newspaper article announcing the move to the theatre space is still appropos:
“This event is the result of the systematic alienation of almost 1000 people in this community. There were times when Countryside numbered nearly 1200-1300 strong on a Sunday Morning. Now there are just 400 left. Churches split and compress all the time because of needed change. This is not one of those times.”
I will withhold a little bit of judgement on the $288 alcohol purchase … but only a little bit. If it was for a “corporate” meeting that all churches pitching in for maaaaaybe I could give it a pass.
However, in tough economic times, the optics are terrible (and have nothing to do with anyone’s moral stance on the use of alcohol)!
I work on U.S. government contracts and grants of a specific type and the first thing you learn (and which is always the butt of a joke or two) is that purchasing alcohol on the dime of a certain type of USG contract/grant is a HUGE NO-NO. A huge, obsessive, well-audited no-no!
We host business functions around meals but employees and guests alike are told well in advance and in writing that alcohol cannot be purchased using contract/grant funds, i.e. pay for it out of your own pocket.
I will pass judgement freely and agree that the salary + housing allowance (and YES, housing allowance is income, people) is way out of whack for the market.
And the allegation* that kills me the most (besides the testimonies of the hurting former Countryside members)?
The taking of the church P.A. system. Even more than the mortgage default, personally.
P.A. systems in this day and age are NOT Mr. Microphones that one picks up for $24.99 at Walgreens. A basic sound system runs in the THOUSANDS of dollars, never mind a system that can accommodate a 1000+ person church. That is a major piece of equipment. Major.
*Dee/Deb I use the term “allegation” to be overly cautious, not out of any opinion on the veracity of “Buck.” Hope you understand.
http://www.acts29network.org/about/
It is our hope to see this leading to millions of lives changed by the power of the Spirit for the glory of God.
Acts 29 exists to resource church planters and church-planting pastors around the world. We accomplish this through recruitment, assessment, training, and support.
EPIC FAIL
You mean “red flags”? 🙂
This is the equivalent to giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. Then bailing them out.
Welcome, Chris Dean!
srs wrote:
Thank you. Read red flags….
Chris Dean wrote:
We plan to discuss this on Monday. Welcome to TWW!
The News Dispatch.com, Michigan City, Indiana, Wednesday, July 13, 2011 5:09 PM CDT
“Countryside Church plans to sell building, change name”
…The congregation received the news with excitement and full support, Lead Pastor Kevin Galloway said.
…“We really desire to see a better facility, so that we can continue growing,” Galloway said.
+++++++++++++++++++
“excitement and full support”….
hmmm, claiming it was the facility that was inhibiting growth. seems to me it was quite the prime facility.
@ Southwestern Discomfort:
Trust me I don’t wonder. They made it clear to those of us left at the time…they were in it for the money, that building is worth much much more than it will ever be sold for now. They were rubbing their hands together anticipating the sale so they, the new leaders could cash in…I am so glad that did NOT work out for them. What breaks my heart is that everyone really lost. Our community needed that church and it’s ministries. And it still breaks my heart today that it is gone.
Seneca wrote:
Why? Are you the ghostwriter?
@ rebecca lynn:
I grieve with you over this terrible loss to your community. 🙁
Dis wrote:
Thanks for letting us know.
So if Countryside is now Egypt, doesn’t that make Galloway Pharaoh? 😉 Yes, yes, I know, the bank is Egypt but that was just too good to pass up.
The ex-pastor of the PCA church I went to had some kind of silly mini-obsession with church planting too, at least near the end. The church had five families and one single lady and (I found out from a former member later) was already five digits in the red. This amounted to maybe 26 people, most of them children or teenagers. But he kept saying we should pray about planting in a church in the next town. Whenever the wisdom of this was questioned, he would answer with things like “It’s never too early to start thinking about it,” etc. He also once openly fantasized about buying an empty Methodist church as we drove past it (remember, 5 digits in the red). I seem to recall the word “miracle” may have been involved in that conversation.
@ Chris Dean:
Welcome to TWW! We're glad you're here.
@ Seneca:
and Seneca, I have a Christmas present just for you.
http://www.zazzle.com/rosie_the_riveter_tee_shirts-235043226032299053
Hester wrote:
Hester – until I read your post I wasn’t tracking with the “bank as Egypt” concept. Doh! 🙂 Thanks for setting me straight.
Pharaoh Galloway has an appropriate ring to it, however ….
elastigirl wrote:
Oh absolutely – grin
I’ve never been a part of this kind of church so I’m confused. Why couldn’t a majority of people refuse to tithe and/or pay the pastor’s ridiculous demands? Is the church a 501c3 corporation or the pastor’s sole proprietorship?
@ Dis: I am glad that we have been of help. We try to get the information out there so people can make informed decisions.
To Our Readers We left a message this evening for Kevin Galloway offering him an opportunity to respond to this series. We will let you know if we hear from him.
Dee/Deb-
I would love to know have you contacted Kevin Galloway for a statement on all this? Have you contacted Matt Chandler and asked for him to comment on all this? I would like to know what does Chandler think about this? Is this what Matt Chandler envisions as a healthy church plant? is this what Acts 29 is all about?
In addition to all that what does the former pastor who served for 30 years say about all this? This must grieve him considerably.
@ dee:
DEEBS!! Great minds think alike!! 😀
You know…the next time I am working with the homeless I’m going to “Act like Men” and speak to Jeremy and ask if Fairfax Community Church (FCC) can buy us close to $300.00 in beer and hard liquor. THEN for out next small group social I’m going to ask Andy if FCC can splurge on adult beverages so I and the other men can pound my chest, boast about my raging testosterone, and and find ways to get women to submit to my authority. All in the name of John Calvin….!!!
When’s the boot camp?!? 😛
@ Eagle: You have the great mind. I have the chutzpah!
Since Acts 29 is a network, I am not sure who I could contact to ask the question. I am hoping that reader might let them know. It worked with the John Piper video.
I have been reading a lot lately and all of these leaders bring to mind a song that popped on while I was reading about them. You guys have probably heard it but I thought it was appropriate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eR7-AUmiNcA
This particular portion of the song I thought was worth posting here.
Who cares if you disagree? You are not me
Who made you king of anything?
So, you dare tell me who to be
Who died and made you king of anything?
You sound so innocent
All full of good intent
Swear you know best
But you expect me to
Jump up onboard with you
Ride off into your delusional sunset
Kevin Galloway leading a leadership class is kind of like…
1. Ron Jeremy leading a marriage retreat
2. Bernie Madoff teaching an investment seminar
3. Ted Bundy leading a mixed dating social
😛
Actually there is an interview with Kevin Galloway on Youtube….
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uXTL3H0Exg
Quite insightful!!
@ Dis:
As a missionary who works in a small network with around 30 other full-time missionaries around the world, I can assure that losing the housing allowance would be a big hit to our families. For every mega pastor who misuses it, there are hundreds, if not thousands, who rely on it to get by.
Eagle wrote:
That’s what the $300 of booze is for:
“Candy is dandy
But liquor is quicker.”
— Ogden Nash
elastigirl wrote:
All dance Joyfully with Great Enthusiasm before Comrade Dear Leader!
@all
Kind of a serious comment. I’ve been reading here for over a year now, so I’m still kind of new, I suppose. All of you here, and especially Dee and Deb, were instrumental in helping my wife and I untangle ourselves and escape from an unhealthy Acts 29 church. Since then, I have hung around to encourage, support, advocate, and enjoy the abundant fellowship and humor -especially of the British variety! 🙂
I say all of that as a context for this: I have sensed lately an attitude of hostility towards both the office of pastor and individuals who occupy it. As a missionary myself (certified Non-Calvinista!) who pastors as a part of his job, it hurts to read comments that demean pastors, or housing allowances, or seminary. As evident from my brief time here at TWW, I’m one of you. I’m also a full-time minister of the gospel of Jesus, who studied hard in seminary to love and serve well, and who relies on housing allowances and tithes to support my family.
I just want to ask that, as we work together to protect the church and to watch out for bad pastors, that we also remember the faithful, hardworking pastors.
No More Perfect wrote:
Ultimately the Church is still His bride, blemishes and all. I often feel the same way. But then I remember this:
“And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.”
We live in the hope of that promise.
@ Seneca:
I’m still waiting for gender complementarians to invest the same amount of time addressing never married, childless, divorced or widowed women that they do married women with kids. I for one have never married, so all the lessons about “wifely submission” the gender comps like to dole out are very much pointless.
I take it that these Acts 29 guys have never heard the expression,
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” ?
When you’re reading blog posts like this one about the destruction of a perfectly good church, it helps a tiny bit to have this sort of theme music playing at a low volume in another browser window:
Circus Theme Music
As far as Mark Driscoll, some of us have been placing new links to new stories about his plagiarism case in the last thread with his name in the title.
@ Dis:
I think I posted something about that a few threads ago. Or something similar.
Atheists Take On The IRS
Headline from The New American:
“Atheist Group Sues to Stop Special Tax-Exempt Consideration for Churches”
What in the world???
“Our church services started to stink a whole lot less. We scraped together enough money to buy some big honking speakers, and I stole an unused sound console from my old church along with a projection screen, which were sins that Jesus thankfully died to forgive.” (Confessions, p.62)
We never paid for electricity in our office apartment because the building was illegally hooked up to the power grid and all our power was stolen.” (Confessions, p.125)
What are these people thinking to even have such thoughts in print?? Stealing is an obvious sin, and Jesus died for us because sin is *so utterly serious that without His perfect Sacrifice, we sinners are separated from the Father*!!! This joking attitude is dangerously close to antinomianism. It is simply not Christian in spirit to *use* Jesus’s death in the service of treating sin so casually.
Mr.H wrote:
Great comment, brother. I hear you completely. I have the deepest respect for all faithful, hardworking pastors, whether Protestant, Catholic, Anglican, Eastern Orthodox– you have my love and respect. I would never disparage seminaries, in and of themselves, either. There are good and not-so-good ones, including in my own Catholic tradition, but generally speaking, seminaries serve a valuable purpose.
No contemporary Catholic priest becomes a priest without going to seminary– period. I know that some people here may not agree with that “system,” but I have seen too many Christian leaders go off in wacky directions because of their *lack* of seminary training. The early apostles had Jesus Himself, and St. Paul was taught by other apostles. The early Christian leaders had “seminary” of a different sort than we see today, but it was definitely not just “me, my Bible, and the Holy Spirit.” That latter form of thinking can lead all too quickly to cultdom. One example would be anti-Trinitarian “Christian” attempts to supposedly “get us back to monotheism, away from pagan developments like the Trinity.” One of my old friends has accepted that form of thinking…
@ Mr.H:
hi, Mr. H.
I’m sorry for comments that may be hurtful to you. you seem like a truly good person.
this is no surprise, but to flesh it out in my own words: So many of us have had our lives turned upside down by church leaders. Some have been destroyed. But have managed to pick up the zillion little jagged ragged pieces and arrange them in some fashion in childlike hope of it resembling something close to normal.
for so many it’s a new normal. life will never be the same again. there’s something of a silver lining of wisdom, understanding, depth, etc. but the scars if not open wounds are simply there.
we are processing.
we are also incredulous and incensed at what we observe in those who have assumed the role of powerbroker of our religion, as well as their influence, and the bedazzled lack of objectivity in so many.
we are incensed that to be an unwitting member of Christian culture is to belong to a “deservedly infamous group” (Anne Rice, when she quit Christianity [but not Christ]). We are dismayed that she is correct and that her assessment is shared by many.
Speaking for myself, I ask for your understanding. and please pardon me: that you would give some thought to having a thick skin. it is necessary.
i’m sure others will respond to you. I’m hoping for some insightful comments on how the unconscionable actions and abuse of authority & privilege of leaders is no doubt forcing changes in the notion of ministry as gainful employment, ministry as career.
@ Mr.H: I too agree with you Mr. H. One of the things that upset me the most was our church dumping its missionaries because "Pastor" Kevin said we could not afford them. It really hurt my heart. My good friend was a missionary kid to Haiti, so I knew this would cause pain. And while I do hold the office of Pastor in HIGH regard, I separate the man from the position if need be. Brian and I are blessed to be in a wonderful congregation now and our Pastor is wonderful. I trust him as much as I can and each year we are there I trust him more. Not because I am brainwashed or told I have to but I can see his life mirroring scripture. He is a godly man and that is evident in his personal life and how he treats others. I am grateful for that. When I feel unsafe and back off, he gives me the room to do so. He knows sometimes I have moments where even now I am scared. Emotionally this has been hard, my panic attacks came back, I still have trouble with groups of people, and I am anxious in general at church some weeks. Feeling safe in any church is hard after what we went through at Countryside. Where we are at now is so much better than where we had been. sigh. But healing is happening for us, we have a great family counselor and a supportive group of friends that did not shun us. And each day is better. My prayer is that people don't give up on their faith because of one evil pastor because there are many more good men out there serving God. And many good churches ready to take in people like us so wounded, and broken. I quite simply have refused to let one man's opinion of me change what I know God's opinion of me truly was. He sees me through the blood of his son, and knowing that my sin caused that blood loves me anyway. And if he can do that, then I can face another Sunday in church.
dee wrote:
I await his response with bated breath! I doubt the Acts 29 leader will respond to the readers of this blog, unless it is to remind you that you are all “spiteful”, “pathetic” and a bunch of “narcissistic zeros.”
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2010/09/21/an-open-letter-to-matt-chandler-from-a-narcissistic-zero/
__
“Send In Da Proverbial Religious Clowns?”
hmmm…
“I have sensed lately an attitude of hostility towards both the office of pastor and individuals who occupy it.
As a missionary myself (certified Non-Calvinista!) who pastors as a part of his job, it hurts to read comments that demean pastors, or housing allowances, or seminary. As evident from my brief time here at TWW,
I’m one of you. I’m also a full-time minister of the gospel of Jesus, who studied hard in seminary to love and serve well, and who relies on housing allowances and tithes to support my family.
I just want to ask that,
as we work together to protect the church…”
~ Mr.H on Wed Dec 11, 2013 at 11:48 PM.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/12/11/countryside-defaults-where-is-the-acts-29-leadership-in-these-situations/#comment-123758
___
A Serious Reply:
“Who are these proverbial religious-clad spiritually uncircumcised Philistine(s), that they should defy the armies of the living God?”
What?
–> demanding pastor(s) da talk about ‘episodes’ with wives with morning sickness, or pastor(s) that talk about where to put heir proverbial members in the christian bedroom, or the pastor(s) who harbor(s) or covers for a proverbial sexual ‘church’ predator, or a pastor who destroys whole healthy flocks, abusing their authority, controlling, manipulating those they are called to serve with the love of Christ- all the while seemly justifying their actions with the mis-use of scripture. Wolves inside of wolves clothing.
mmm mmm mmm!
IF THE p-o-v-e-r-b-i-a-l SHoE FITS?
Send in da proverbial religious clowns? Oh! They’re already here?
could b. (ya thInk?)
(sadface)
Sopy
__
(Intermission) Inspirational relief: Susan Boyle & Barbra Streisand – ‘Send In The Clowns’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKbm90w14Cg
Comic confusion? : 1 Samuel 17:45 “David and Goliath” Strange Muzak…?!?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKU1QmtfAP0
;~)
—
@ elastigirl:
at least, I imagine I speak for some when I say “we”.
mr. h, my heartfelt thanks and appreciation to you for your honest ministry. Really.
To any ACTS 29 / 9Marks / T4G pastor who may be reading here:
Think for yourself. You can be a “company man” or you can think for yourself.
When you first followed Christ’s call into the ministry, is this who you imagined yourself becoming, someone who would one day be silently condoning (if not actively defending) the indefensible, the sort of nonsense documented here at TWW?
No, you did not.
It is never too late to come to your senses. And there is MUCH grace for those who do.
elastigirl wrote:
Yeah. Right.
Actually, with the negative growth they were experiencing under Galloway’s watch, they will soon be able to meet in Galloway’s living room. With a $50K housing allowance spent on housing – otherwise, that would be dishonest, wouldn’t it – his living room should be quite roomy enough.
Like mediaeval maps, the A29 website should be plastered with “Here be dragons!” or “Here be wolves!” warnings.
Pingback: Gospel Centered Bus Driving | Thou Art The Man
@ Mr.H:
That is why it should be limited in amount to a small, but reasonable number for legitimate ministers. Perhaps $20,000 a year, adjusted for inflation. Or perhaps the rental value of a 1500 sf residence within one mile of the ministry location.
__
Corse de colisión: “?retsasiD (tuB gnihtoN)”
hmmm…
(Nothing But) Disaster, awaits those who dis-re-gard Christianity 101…
What?
1. love God.
2. love your neighbor as your-self.
huh?
.esroC noisilloC ( si esle gnihtyna)
hum, hum,hum,
…♪ ♫ I don’t know why I love my church like I do,
All the changes Axe29 put me through,
Take my tithe money, and then they go buy booze,
I expect I haven’t seen the worst of it yet…
I wanna know, where in scripture…
Read me the lines,
Where I am made to see blue…
(I thought Jesus came to make me new?)
(s_d_f_c_) (fill in da blanks)
…♪ ♫ Dunk me in the l-o-v-e of Jesus,
Fill me with the Spirit’s fruit…
Take me to the Rock,yeah! **
(repeat 3x)
(grin)
S“㋡”py
___
**Comic parody inspirational source: Talking Heads – “Take Me To The River”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25E0ACkA6uo
Songwriters: Al Green, Maron Hodges; lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group; Lyrics Talking Heads – “Take Me To The River” (adapted for parody, disclaimer: U.S. Title 17 infringement unintended.)
;~)
—
Mr.H:
I grew up in a home where pastors were always welcome for a meal and if needed a bed for the night. Revival preachers and church planters (had a different term then!) received hospitality and support, and godly counsel from my deacon chair father and WMU activist mother. We even gave up our home to a church plant, and moved to another. And an equal share of my folks estate (one matching what each child received) went to build church buildings (shelters really) in Africa. And there were other contributions to mission activities.
But we also ran into a scoundrel in the pulpit on one occasion. Another time, a prospective pastor for our church clearly was saying to the deacons that he would lead with a strong hand and expect no interference. They said “thank you, your services are not needed here.” He said he would talk to the congregation, and they said you are welcome to do that, but we will not be responsible if you are tarred and feathered! This is the church where I learned about the priesthood of all believers being the foundation for democratic church polity. Or, as I once heard, the pew sitters who give, in prayer and led by the HS, are in charge, and the pulpiteer is at the bottom of the organizational chart.
Mr.H wrote:
I can’t speak for others here, but that’s definitely not the case. I’ve seen too many hard working Godly ministers to have nothing but admiration for them and their office. I’ve seen them preach the love and walk the walk the walk. I’ve seen them counsel people going through hard times. I’ve seen them visit and counsel the sick and the dying and their families, including those who weren’t members of their congregation. I’ve seen them bury teenagers who committed suicide. I’ve seen them participate in fundraisers for community organizations and fundraisers for nonmembers in the community who face huge medical expenses. And on and on.
What you see here is anger at those who abuse the office, who claim the title but in no way act as a minister, who are abusers rather than healers and who pillage and plunder donations given for God’s work to satisfy their own greed. They bring dishonor and shame to a holy office.
Daisy wrote:
………….
Especially since the US has more single (never married) and divorced women then ever before.
An Attorney wrote:
……………
Good ideas.
@ Mr.H:
Never had feelings of anger or hostility to the clergy, until one egotistical, self righteous bully, destroyed the heritage of our 150 + year old church.
Accused long standing members of being, soft on biblical principles. (translate he didn’t like women holding leadership positions. Accused the church of “dying ” when we didn’t want to change to a family “integrated” church. He chased out those who didn’t agree with him by telling them to conform or else. Church polity was changed (from congregational to elder rule) after he’d cherry picked deacons /elders after getting rid of previous non-compliant leaders.
Financial affairs of the church are now secret….only elders decide, know where money goes. A former financially healthy, debt free church is having its rainy day accounts drained. Oh yes, and the name of the 156 year old church was changed.
From a different perspective I might ask a Pastor this. Where did the change of attitude come from within the clergy that the congregation is the enemy? The congregation is to be treated with disdain.
RE: Liquor store purchase
What about the possibility that he bought Cokes and supplies (cups, snacks, ice, etc)? They sell more than just alcoholic beverages in liquor stores.
Anyways, a sad story. Rather than leave, why didn’t the membership fight for their church and ban together to fire this awful pastor.
It takes a while for a tree to bear fruit.
In recent years, the Acts 29 tree has been producing fruit, and I for one am simply a fruit inspector.
From my perspective the fruit growing on some A29 trees is rotten to the core…
Oh, and an addendum to my previous comment: that PCA pastor thought it was wrong for pastors to be bivocational so I suspect that was a big reason the church was five digits in the red. And he was sending two daughters to college at the time. In fact the only reason the congregation let him go, was because they couldn’t afford him anymore. They then hired someone else anyway after making no apparent attempt to address the debt so I have no idea what that’s about, it not being my church anymore and all.
Lin wrote:
Which is an utterly fascinating factoid who’s implications we don’t understand.
*
Daisy, as a single woman I say, “soldier on.”
pcapastor wrote:
Right on brother. Have you ever thought about pastoring in a city where you could lose your life for preaching the gospel? All sensationalism aside I sure wish there was a PCA type church in Dubai.
Follow the money.
Does anyone know where the money for building comes from in Acts 29 churches? For example, do they go to to Evangelical Christian Credit Union or do those 300 churches tap from somewhere else?
Obviously, if tithers are leaving, and pastors have outrageous salaries (sounds like corporate America), there’s not much money for expansion.
Here’s the link in case you wish to research the locations of Acts 29 churches:
http://www.acts29network.org/find-churches/
There are two within 15 miles of me.
Mr.H wrote:
Mr. H.
I’m backing away from my present church right now.
Not because I have hostility toward the pastor there. I LOVE that guy.
But my church has begun to embrace a few little things here and there, some Piper, some Driscoll, some Iron Sharpens Iron men’s conference where Voddie Bauchman spoke, the movie Courageous backed by Vision Forum. You know the routine.
I began to try to address this through emails with him, but my bi-vocational, family man, newly grandparented pastor simply didn’t have time to give to my emails. He wasn’t rude. He was just overwhelmed with his new grand babies in other states and such so that the timing wasn’t right, nor will ever really be right any time soon.
But because of the bad doctrine trickling in from ‘popular’ Christian Evangelicalism, I feel like my voice, as a woman, is suspect when I do any questioning of ‘male authority’ doctrines and I simply don’t have the time or energy to bully in and MAKE them hear me.
But I tell you what.
I’m angry as h&ll at these so-called pastors who are having such a negative influence on Godly and decent men in my small community. And yes, you may call it hostility. Their excesses are costing me dearly by capturing the hearts of decent men and turning them against pure doctrine and turning them toward gender worship.
@ Guest:
Walmart is cheaper for cups and sodas. :o)
@ Mara:
Mara, I can so relate to your comment. It is like no matter where you go that you think is immune– this stuff infiltrates at some level and it is amazing to see the focus change. The young are so drawn to the rules and roles.
It might be the interns from seminary, the youth pastor attends a conference or something else very benign that turns into a doctrinal focus. And because so many are not keeping up with what is going on out there, they don’t see it until too late.
Mr. H, I am sorry you have felt hostility here toward pastors but it makes sense considering the focus of the blog and people’s shared experiences here.
I have a friend who graduated from seminary and decided to keep his career and be a bi vocational pastor. He pastors a very small rural church. He told me that his seminary peers think he is a loser. They cannot imagine why he bothers with what they see as a “dead” church. They think he is wasting his time and talent. His goal has been to gear the church to minister to the needs of the community. Not grow a huge church. If more come as a result of their efforts on behalf of the community then that is wonderful.
Unfortunately, his peers attitude seems to be the typical response coming out of many seminaries today in general.
However, I still think there are many out there who put pastors on pedestals. I don’t think that will end anytime soon.
Anon 1 wrote:
You beat me to it!
gus wrote:
Great comment.
Anon 1 wrote:
What a wonderful man and a great pastor.
Mr.H wrote:
Amen on that one. I pastor two small rural churches, and live in a parsonage next door to one of ’em. If I had to find my own home, I’d have to live about an hour’s drive away from work. (Did I mention this is a rural area?)
Yeah, there are “pastors” gaming the system. But there are a lot of us who will pay dearly for their foolishness.
Lin wrote:
I could live with that quite gladly.
Mr.H wrote:
Could you help me a bit with this? I respect you and understand that you are definitely a good guy. From the perspective of a blogger, we write about what comes to us. I have kept my eyes open for a good story in which a member of the congregation went for the jugular of a decent pastor. In fact, we featured a story by Wade Burleson in which a member of his congregation was fomenting a rebellion and his successful handing of the situation.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/10/26/wade-burleson-and-pete-briscoe-two-pastors-who-really-get-it/
So, if it is with the posts that you are seeing a disrespect, could you please point to the posts in which we have disrespected the office of pastor?
As for the commenters, many of the commenters have been wounded by those in the “office of pastor.” So, on this blog, you are apt to see raw emotion. I think sometimes we insulate ourselves from the reality of pain, anger, etc. especially in the church in which we put on our happy masks and assume the world really, really likes us.
This blog is open to many people, from atheists to Christians who are all on a journey. For some, they will drop by, express their anger and move on. Others take far longer.
We are opened to being criticized and criticized harshly. I hope that this blog is one place that the leaders, who we know are reading, will confront the harsh realities of the pain that has been caused by the church. Frankly, I believe that the church is the reason for the increasing numbers of “the nones.”
This is why I like your comment. You are a reader here. You see some things from your perspective and you are honestly sharing your concerns. I am grateful that you expressed it. You did so very kindly as well. Your comment goes in the pot with the rest and perhaps, it will provide some needed balance. Thank you.
@ Darcyjo: There is no question that the day is coming. Ed Young Jr. reportedly gets $250,000 per annum for a housing allowance.
@ TW: You crack me up!
Anon 1 wrote:
All who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution, but it’s sad when it comes from within the church. It’s especially tragic to hear – if indeed this is accurate and representative – that a seminary has become a hothouse for greed and ambition.
To the various pastors among us (including but not limited to pcapastor and Mr H), I hope that you do not only find hostility here. More than that, I hope that we can collectively learn to call out the false shepherds in such a way that the true shepherds feel, not hostility, but solidarity.
Off topic – not really…
http://m.christianpost.com/news/pastor-accused-of-stealing-from-church-strips-building-of-furniture-and-walks-out-on-congregation–110588/cpf
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Amen.
AngelaCFR wrote:
Hey Angela, about three weeks ago I heard that song for the first time and downloaded it and it became my anthem for a couple of weeks. My 19-year-old son just chuckled. “You dare tell me who to be…”
dee wrote:
Well, that’s how he pays for his private jet…
gus wrote:
$50K a year should be enough for a Furtick Mansion.
@ Anon 1:
And you know, I do think my pastor is a true shepherd. But he’s teetering on some bad doctrine that makes his shepherding less than it sooooooo could be.
He’s a great guy in so many ways. That’s why this stuff makes me both sad and angry.
Mr. H, I believe you are a good and kind man, dedicated to your God and your flock, and it sounds like you truly have the gift and calling of pastor.
After my church thing went down, and I finally gathered my wits and was emotionally stable again, I believe God directed me to approach the leadership of my former church in a Matthew 18 fashion. They never were willing to hear me, not would they listen when I had a female friend accompany me at stage 1 church discipline. So I contacted several elders and pastors in our community (not all strangers, most knew me and my son) to accompany me to approach these men to attempt a true reconciliation.
Most backed away immediately, citing discomfort or the fact that mine was an independent EFCA church. The one pastor who contacted my former pastor said former pastor was a dedicated brother in Christ and it was my job to forgive and be reconciled (I think go back and apologize for the slander I never committed). Then he said he “really didn’t need one more thing to do” as if my sincere attempt at reconciling with a group of believers was a waste of his time.
I came to the conclusion that if my community is any statistical sample, the offices of church leadership are populated by a tight group of power-hungry, pride-driven, doctrinally heavy but fruit light men. And apparently cowards.
My feelings about these so-called “offices” (pastor and elder) are that allowing a man a stage, a microphone, an audience and a huge amount of power over that audience is a formula for disaster. How could his pride not get ragingly fueled as he is increasingly adored and “looked up to” week after week? It’s akin to putting a man in a strip club to “preach” week after week and then being stunned when he has his predictable “moral failure.” From a human perspective, this system cannot be what the Lord intended…it simply doesn’t make any sense to me, and I have spent decades striving to be a useful part of the process.
I think you and Wade Burleson perhaps have those special callings and try to reign in the natural man. I consider you a friend and I will be praying for you to stay the course, much as I pray for Wade.
Kevin de Young asked on his blog ‘What Do You Think of When you Think of the New Calvinism’.
I posted this comment (see below). Just re-posting it here because thinking about it has made me sad. 🙁
I think of an incredibly divisive movement that seems to celebrate Calvin more than Christ (just look at Piper’s latest poem) and which has led many a young person I know down blind alleys of predestination and limited atonement. They spend their time more concerned about which Puritan to quote than actually reading the Bible and keeping in step with the Holy Spirit.
I think of a movement that has marginalised women and given them non-biblical prescribed roles. A movement that has removed from women opportunities to use their gifts for the church. In Piper’s church, to take an example from ‘the main man’, women cannot read from Scripture publicly. In my own denomination I have seen the influence of New Calvinism relegate women and remove them from leadership positions – after all, it’s is a movement which believes the church should have a ‘masculine feel’.
I think a movement wherein the leaders spend massive amounts of time and money promoting each other’s books, conferences, blog-posts and generally engaging in back-slapping.
I think of a movement that rallies round Christian leaders accused of heinous behaviour just because ‘they’re in the club’ or have the so-called right doctrine, even if this support undermines the most helpless and vulnerable in the Kingdom.
I think of a movement that has shaken my Christian faith to the core because as a highly educated woman I do not see that there is a place for me in it.
I think of a movement that to my mind has done irrevocable damage to the Church.
Off topic a bit but very worthwhile. Although Andy Naselli deleted my comment in his post called “22 Mistakes Pastors Make in Practicing Church Discipline” there is trackback/pingback link to a great article
by Jason Harris called “When Church Discipline is Sin.” It deals with the sin of refusing a member’s resignation as promulgated by Mark Dever. http://teaminfocus.com.au/when-church-discipline-is-sin/
@ May:
What a heartfelt, succinct, and powerful statement, May.
@ Daisy:
Ah ha, sorry for the double post then. I don’t think it’ll stand, to be honest. Tax law is pretty hard to change, and I don’t think it’s very “discriminatory” as alleged.
@ Mr.H:
Yeah, I totally agree with that. My husband’s best friend is a pastor as well, and he and his wife BOTH work full time jobs in addition to ministering a small church. I don’t think the average missionary/pastor abuses the parsonage in any way, shape, or form…it’s just the few big names that bring attention to the potential for abuse. It’s sad, really.
@ May:
Well stated! I couldn’t have said it better myself.
Seneca Griggs wrote:
It’s not hard to figure out. The majority of gender comp teaching revolves around telling married women and women who are mothers what their supposed roles are.
What gender comps have to say to and about women who have never married and have had children: nothing.
They don’t give a fig about single women or the childless. They are bizarrely fixated on marriage and parenting.
Lin wrote:
Recent studies have shown that many more of the divorced (in the USA) are not getting re-married, and that there is a higher number of women today ages 20-something to 45 who have never had children (and/or who will not).
I expect the evangelical church and Southern Baptists to
1. remain stubbornly oblivious to both facts of life and
2. to continue offering pointless books, conferences, and blogs on “womanly, biblical gender roles” (which is code speak for wifehood and motherhood), that people such as Seneca will keep harping on.
Instead of dealing with the new realities, I believe evangelicals and SBs will jump on the soap box and brow beat younger, Christian women to marry and make babies.
They will not actually do anything to help the singles and childless, just ramp up the propaganda on why people should marry and make babies.
U.S. birth rate drops as more women say ‘no’ to motherhood – December 2013
Guest wrote:
One of the positive things I can say about Southern Baptists is that I seriously doubt such a thing would ever happen to a SB preacher.
I know someone whose boyfriend worked as a bartender in New Orleans, and the bartender says he and the other bartenders really hated the annual Southern Baptist convention because they got little to no customers in the bars at those times.
@ May:
Bravo May!
@ Daisy:
I can’t speak to the SBC annual convention, but a hotel employee once told a Christian dad I know that their pay-per-view (i.e., porn) purchases skyrocketed during Christian men’s conferences.
@ Daisy:
But reputedly, the room service deliveries of alcoholic beverages skyrockets every time the SBC is in town! It is not what one does, but what one can be seen doing.
@ An Attorney:
Then there’s the purported porno issue as well.
Daisy wrote:
………….
Have to agree with you. They think marriage and children are what makes a nation healthy, wealthy and powerful.
@ An Attorney:
so the room service guys get the tips but not the bartenders in the bars. 😆
I was raised a SBC, and I am a teetotaler.
The reason I don’t drink though has nothing to do with religious beliefs.
I do not like the way alcohol tastes. That is why I don’t drink.
I do not understand why so many SBs are so completely opposed to alcohol drinking.
I find it funny how they try to explain away or minimize examples of alcohol drinking in the Bible (where it is not condemned), or Jesus turning water into wine at a wedding.
It’s like the gender comp preachers who keep ignoring, or downplaying, Deborah, Junia, Priscilla, Phoebe, Lydia of Thyatira, or who try to re-cast the strong, assertive women of the Bible as being meek, passive types that gender comps think women should be.
Dee and Deb, consider doing a post on Piper’s ‘poem’ which has been filmed and is narrated by an all-male line-up of well-known New Calvinists.
When I say poem, I really mean another blatant piece of promotion – this time promoting his brand of Christianity. The actor certainly looks like the typical Young Restless Reformed guy.
http://www.desiringgod.org/calvinist
Daisy wrote:
Lin wrote:
Hey, let’s call a spade a spade and use the language of the Bible in order to make it crystal clear lest there be any confusion: it is IDOLATRY.
Mara wrote:
If there is a drawback (downside) to being a decent and Godly man, this probably qualifies as one. Because they want to abide by the Pauline writings in toto and not dare and question (descriptive vs. prescriptive) what they’re taught about gender roles, they swallow this nonsense hook-line-and-sinker.
dee wrote:
Sigh…..
I get a good salary for a small community–each UMC conference has a minimum salary, and small churches can share a pastor and split the cost, and I draw that minimum, which is a decent wage. But I (and a number of other small church pastors) are watching this with a lot of discomfort. Some of these “brothers” are too busy getting while the getting is good, and to heck with those who will be harmed by it, whether it be their congregations who are paying massive amounts of money for them and their “needs,” or other clergy who draw much smaller salaries and might lose a portion of that little bit they get because of people like them.
This is one of the few times I find myself thinking “Thank the dear Lord I’m a widow, at least I’m not having to worry about affording to care for my family on what may end up being my income.”
Rafiki wrote:
Have no problem identifying it as idolatry, worship of the family.
@ May:
I read the poem.
And I’ve come to at least one conclusion from it.
Calvinists are men.
It’s kind of like when Daddy Warbucks saw little orphan Annie in the musical he couldn’t believe that she was an orphan. Because, after all, “Orphans are boys!”
I also note that there is only one place for a woman in this poem. She is only mentioned one out of seventeen stanzas. And she’s the Calvinist’s wife. Though she is given some sort of title that is meant to bring honor, she really does hold a very small place in the Calvinist world. And her life with the great Calvinist is to play the part in a parable. A very superficial role, indeed.
I thank God that His view of me and the call on my life is a whole lot bigger and has a whole lot more substance than anything Piper is capable of understanding with his Calvin infected brain.
Mara wrote:
😆 I watched about 3/4 of the video and noticed the same thing. He also mentioned having a child.
Notice what some of us were just saying a few posts above… a lot of Christianity only recognizes people with spouses and children.
They have a hard time find metaphors or allegories that do not appeal to marriage or parenting.
Dee, Deb, this is an absolutely needed post you have put on the web.
We once again find ourselves among the “nones”, sort of, having recently been punked by leadership in a Lutheran church. So it is happening in many different spheres, but it is happening.
We recently sat down and decided to support ONLY evangelistic preaching. Strong stuff, but as soon as it veers into “discipleship” in our area it also gets over into to all this secondary issue and nickles and noses nonsense.
We have found not one, but two excellent Sunday Schools and several very good midweek Bible studies. They are lay led. So no need to “forsake assembling ourselves together.”
We’ve decided to make the huge step back in time to where I grew up. Church was focused on leading the lost to Christ–period.
It was a voluntary association of believers for the propagation of the gospel–period.
Since no one is preaching evangelistically around here, we won’t be regularly attending church services. Christmas Eve music and candles–yes. Easter music resurrection celebration–yes. Evangelistic crusades–yes. Concerts–yes.
But put ourselves under the supposed authority of some pastor? No. We believe scripture forbids that anyway, so why waste our time on Sundays doing things the old covenant way?
There are some preachers we would listen to available on the web (hi Bro. Wade) and on tv.
We need a break, a time out, a time to regroup and do what the scripture enjoins and refuse all else. A time to “call no man father.” A time to be Bereans.
Or to put it simply, be old time oil field Baptists. Not IFB. Not SBC. Just plain old oilfield transients living out the Baptist faith and passing it on to others.
@ Mara:
That is exactly what occurred to me – It’s crystal clear from the poem that Calvinism is for men.
On a side note, from Dee’s Tweet today: Tim Challies is at it again. PO’d because the Pope is Time’s Man of the Year.
I do not wish to issue a call to hate the pope or his followers, but we do need to despise and reject the falsehood he promotes.
Another notable failure of the YRR crowd. Acts of Christian love are meaningless. The only thing that counts is your theology. If your theology lines up exactly like theirs you can do no wrong. If it doesn’t, whatever you do should be despised.
My God.
http://www.challies.com/articles/the-peoples-pope-the-man-of-the-year?utm_content=buffer58cf2&utm_source=buffer&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Buffer
May wrote:
…besides the fact that he should stick to preaching and not poetry?
Rudimentary and unoriginal rhyming. Archaic form. Stereotypical and generally cliché imagery (where imagery exists). Telling, not showing.
I am a bit of a poetry aficionado, and I can tell you that I couldn’t even finish reading this tripe-ish trope.
JeffT wrote:
How sad…my favorite line is “Commendable actions can flow from abhorrent beliefs”. I hope he realizes that abohorrent actions have flowed from the commendable beliefs of his pals.
E.G. wrote:
And hackneyed
@ acg116:
“How sad…my favorite line is “Commendable actions can flow from abhorrent beliefs”. I hope he realizes that abohorrent actions have flowed from the commendable beliefs of his pals.”
Most of them don’t seem to have a clue . . . they bow to a different idol.
For this crowd…I guess what qualifies you for ministry is blackmailing, plagarism, adultry, and okaying spousal abuse.
JeffT wrote:
That too.
Reminded me, in unfortunate ways, of Longfellow’s “Hiawatha” in terms of general tediousness.
Not that I want to give Piper the idea to write an epic poem…
@ May:
Thanks for sharing this. I thought the poem and video were excellent!
Eagle wrote:
“TIMMEH!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YsQ9PeQsNP8
E.G. wrote:
Well, if it keeps him busy and out of everyone’s hair…
@ Hester:
TBH, I’m a little sceptical of that – sounds like the sort of joke-cum-putdown that would do the rounds. I’m not sure Christian men are significantly more addicted to porn than non-Christian men. (Unless all the guests in the hotel are women apart from during Christian Men’s Conferences.)
JeffT wrote:
Just like the Communists and their Purity of Ideology.
Mara wrote:
“Calvin infected brain” — GOOD ONE-LINER!
__
“I Came, I Saw, I Broke Wind…”
-snark-
Those who do God’s words and teach them are the greatest in His kingdom?
Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch! Bump!
(crash)
.. but with proverbial sticks, clubs, bloody noses, and bus wheels?
You gotz ta beeeeee kidding.
Jesus came for this?
heh heh heh…
Ya Axe29 boyz look kinda stupid wit your proverbial spiritual heads on backwards…
But you go ahead…
(grin)
hahahahahaha
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy…
But Jesus came that they might have life, and have it abundantly!
YaHoooooooooooo!
Sopy
___
Inspirational relief: Maya Tamir Playing Hayden with Israeli Philharmonic Orchestra
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAhkh3xi1Wo
—
May wrote:
I didn’t see a poem. I saw a grid of quatrains.
Nostradamus wrote better quatrains.
Even fake Nostradami(?) write better quatrains.
At least Nostradamus (or his imitators) didn’t start every quatrain with a variant on “LOOK AT MEEEEEE!”
Daisy wrote:
Don’t forget the pay-per-view porn channels.
Daisy wrote:
Because that’s how you Outbreed the Heathen to establish the Republic of Gilead.
Bridget wrote:
You hit it so well. I was having a discussion the other day with a friend who brought up the worship of Mary. It hit me then. What is worse? Believing in the worship of Mary or those who push church discipline for pride or push an authoritarianism that hurts people? I know which one I’d choose. 🙂
@ May: Kevin DeYoung did not have guts to post your comment. But I will and I am going to try to incorporate into the post tomorrow. It fits with my discussion.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Well, you know Piper. He’s all concerned with, “What does that look like?”
E.G. wrote:
Yes, and putting unstressed syllables in stressed positions of his measure – “worshipping” is definitely stressed on the first syllable, but for his measure to work, he needs to stress the “-ing” – Ugh.
@ dee:
How about the worship of John Calvin?
In other news, evidence is emerging of water geysers erupting from the surface of Europa, one of the four major moons of Jupiter, and thought by many astrobiologists to be one of the bodies in the solar system most likely to support life.
gus wrote:
I know that this will sound unloving and judgmental, at least concerning his poetic abilities, but considering that Piper et al. always know what everybody else is doing wrong and never hesitate to tell us so, it’s only fair, I think.
@ gus:
There are two things professional preaching orators should not do. One is use scientific analogies in the pulpit (unless they have a scientific background). The other is write poems or songs.
Muff Potter wrote:
Read this a second time and still appreciate it.
The are good, godly men who want to “Submit to one another” per Ephesians 5:21 and have a hard time realizing that there is a dark underbelly to ‘popular’ Evangelicalism. They have bought into the culture wars, also hook line and sinker not realizing that the ones pushing these culture wars and propping up boogey men (the homosexual, the feminazi, the evolutionist) are pushing it so they can sell their wares and make lots of money.
The waters have been so muddied by the that they can no longer see objectively.
acg116 wrote:
Jesus said much the same…that there would be people who would call him “Lord, Lord” and wouldn’t do what he says.
@ An Attorney:
I disagree for two reasons: first it violates the First Amendment and second, it’s abused in so many ways. It’s not just the shuffling of pay into the tax exempt housing allowance category, it’s how.some churches who do not ordain women call their female school teachers ministers so they can be paid less and get the difference as their tax free housing allowance. (I worked for an LCMS college in the early 1990s and I still remember the one day seminar for teachers over Book of Concord so they could keep their credentials. I was the bookstore manager and was paid slightly more to compensate for not being a minister.) Anyway, the tax dodge shouldn’t have been given in the first place.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I dunno. Even Christian sources report often that pr0n usage among Christian (married) men (even preachers) is very high.
It’s also on the rise among Christian females (and married ones).
If you read stories about human sex trafficking in the USA, women who have escaped the lifestyle report that preachers are among the clientele.
I pay attention to this stuff, because (yes it’s true), there are negative assumptions or stereotypes held by married persons against singles (such as, we singles are supposedly more prone to be dirty, nasty, sleep around, look at nudie magazines, hit on married people, etc).
Christians on Christian news sites often refer to pr0n as one of Christianity’s biggest problems.
Pr0nography ~ Statistics
Among Christians
From Baptist Press,
Pastors: porn a big problem among members, dated 2011
From NPR, 2011,
Religious Groups Tackle An X-Rated Secret
@ Nick Bulbeck:
No, it’s really bad among married Christian men, including ones who work as preachers, and on the rise among females are well, and it’s been bad for many years now.
My post above with links to sites with stats is tied up in mod.
@ dee:
From what I can see, my post on Kevin de Young’s blog is still there. It’s in the comments under the post where he asks What Do You Think of When You Think of the New Calvinism? My post says Dec 12, 11.03 am.
Although he starts his post with a few ‘dangers to watch out for’ etc, it’s largely a eulogy to the New Calvinist movement, with special praise devoted to His Holiness Dr Piper.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
That is one of their goals in promoting marriage/parenting, but there is a fundamental belief among many evangelicals that singlehood is flawed. There’s a bias against singles /singleness.
@ dee:
I quoted acg116 there and added that, “Most of them don’t seem to have a clue . . . they bow to a different idol.”
All your comments about Piper’s poem are making me chuckle.
I declined to comment on its utter lack of literary merit, but it did not escape me. I have a first class degree in English literature from a top UK university. Coming from that background my advice to Dr Piper would also be to stick to preaching.
It’s almost as bad as Don Carson’s hymns – anyone ever tried to sing one of those? More like dirges. I’m disappointed, though, that Carson voiced a line or two of Piper’s drivel this time.
Why on earth is it called The Calvinist and not simply The Christian? There is nothing uniquely Calvinist in it.
John A wrote:
Because it rhymes?
gus wrote:
Good point. If I were an english prof, this “poem” would be in my “what not to do” lesson.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
This universe just blows me away. Pun sort of intended.
But seriously, wow.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That is so true. Knew a guy who was working at a hotel during a SBC State Pastor’s conference in San Antonio. He said about 50% of the rooms ordered porn in their rooms….I wasn’t shocked…
May wrote:
Actually, the very first scene in the video looked distinctly un-Calvinist.
The guy is coming up to a fork in the road and it looks like he has a choice on which way to go rather than it being pre-determined. It almost looks like he’s bowing his head in order to ask direction. Yes, I know. I’m reading a lot into it. But that’s just sort of how it comes across to me.
In further other news, apparently Jennifer Lawrence (the wee lassie who plays Catnip Evergreen in The Hunger Games) has stated unequivocally that she will never starve herself to get a part despite being considered “obese” by Hollywood standards because she does not want any other wee lassies to say, “I want to look like Katniss – I’ll skip dinner”. We all know what she’s talking about there.
We could do with more of that! 🙂
(P.S. – my daughter, who is next to me as I type, insisted on the smiley face.)
(I’ve just been ordered to put another one in.)
🙂
This next one is hers…
😀
This could be a long night. I’d best hit “Post Comment”…
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Am hopelessly out of it regarding “The Hunger Games” but I am very much looking forward to seeing Ms. Lawrence’s new film “The Hustle” ASAP.
And actually seeing it in a theatre, as opposed to my laptop, imagine that! 🙂
Good for Ms. Lawrence in standing up to oppressive misogynists in the Hollywood industrial complex!
E.G. wrote:
Yep, there’s a lot of interesting stuff out there. I love the fact, for instance, the surface gravity of a neutron star is so strong that a tennis ball dropped onto it would land with a force equivalent to two megatons. But the “mushroom cloud” would erupt less than a millimetre high. And some neutron stars have a magnetic field so strong that they would lift railway locomotives off the earth’s surface from low earth orbit.
(Everyone note: the placing of neutron stars in low earth orbit is highly dangerous and would result in considerable bother, including – but not limited to – the complete destruction of the planet and the undermining of the sufficiency of scripture. I do not, therefore, condone it.)
@ Nick Bulbeck:
You are getting off easy. I often receive emails from my daughter that are nothing but all kinds of emoticons. I think it is the new love language.
I imagine in addition to this pastor’s salary and housing allowance he also had other perks like a book allowance (could be like $20) and is able to get reimbursed for meals and other expenses. Sad to see this kind of abuse.
@ Steve240:
And let's not forget the conference perks – travel, lodging, meals, conference fee, etc.
@ JeffT:
Pope Francis’ loving and open behavior toward children puts almost every single conservative Protestant (pastors and laymen) I’ve ever known to shame. He lets a kid come up and sit in his chair, hugs them, picks them up, etc. Most conservative Protestants I know are too busy explaining to me why their pre-verbal baby is being “manipulative” by asking to have its diaper changed the only way it knows how.
The real irony in this is, my homeschooled peers who were parented this way, now come to me and my mom, the loosy-goosy Lutherans who were supposed to be “dead Christians” because we had liturgy, and ask us the questions they can’t ask their parents.
I went to the Challies article on the Pope, and I was not surprised at all by what I read. Five years ago, I would have agreed– I *did* agree– with Tim’s many misunderstandings of Catholicism that are shown in his piece.
At the time, I didn’t see them as misunderstandings at all. I truly believed that the Catholic Church teaches a “false gospel” of salvation by works, rather than by faith and the grace of Jesus Christ, which empowers us for good works. I believed, at the time, that the Catholic Church contradicts the Bible on numerous, very serious, matters. Now, it’s five years later, and I’m actually a Catholic “revert,” seeing that Challies’ objections are based on truly lamentable misunderstandings… BUT I really feel the need to say something here to actually defend this brother in Christ who would deny that I am a brother in Christ.
From reading Tim’s blog, many, many times, in past years, I know that he is very serious about studying Scripture. I believe that he is devoted to following Christ and the teachings of the Bible, according to “Sola Scriptura” standards. He says the things that he says about the Catholic Church because he truly believes the Church to be leading people to Hell. He wants to see Catholics have a true, deep, personal relationship of saving faith in Jesus Christ– even though he doesn’t understand that this is what the Church already teaches! I respect and love Tim, as my brother in Christ, even as he sincerely thinks that, given *his understanding of* what I believe, I am not Christian.
I have to say that, in my time, over the last six months or so, reading and commenting here at TWW, I have noticed, and have been personally hurt by, more than a few snarky comments about Reformed Christians, as a group of people, and about Reformed theology, broadly– and I’m Catholic and disavow serious points of Reformed theology!! Up to this point, I’ve tried to overlook the snarkiness about Reformed theology that I’ve seen here. I was probably wrong to do so. I should have mentioned it from the beginning and how un-Christ-like it seemed to me.
In the past, when people have commented here, complaining about unhelpful attitudes being reflected in the com boxes, they have been asked for specifics. I will give some. I saw William Birch, on one thread, simply post, “Calvinism sucks.” One may certainly personally believe that that is the case, on certain points of the theology, but is it truly helpful to publicly speak in a such a disrespectful and vulgar way about a major, and very exegetically serious (in terms of taking the Bible seriously), theology that came to us from the Protestant Reformation? (Again, I’m not even a Calvinist anymore– I write as a Catholic here!)
On another thread, I saw JeffT write, “Reformed doctrine has no power to reform.” Jeff, brother, I am sorry, but you are simply wrong here. I have known many, many Christians who have come to a deeper love for God, and a greater, lived-out holiness in everyday life, through their embrace of Reformed doctrine– which they came to through *serious study of the Bible*, not through undue reverence of John Calvin or other sinful men (all of us being sinners, of course).
I completely get, and agree with, calling certain Reformed leaders (i.e. those who are guilty) out on their abuses of their leadership positions. I completely get, and agree with, the anger of those who have been abused. I believe that *I* have been abused by certain Reformed leaders and church members, and I’ve written openly about it here! However, demonizing Reformed theology itself, and making claims about it, *as a theology*, that are just not respectful or fair, is just not Christ-like. I write this, again, even as some of them don’t accept me as a brother in Christ as a Catholic. I know that they are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I respect their seriousness about reading and understanding and attempting to follow Biblical teaching. In all my experiences of Reformed Christians, both positive and negative, I have seen abundant reasons to believe that *most* of them are serious followers of Christ. It hurts me to see them, as a general group, and their theology spoken of in such disrespectful ways at times in the comments at TWW. Calling out abuse, when specific Reformed leaders or church members engage in it, is great! I’ve done it here myself. Un-Christ-like attitudes toward fellow Christians is not great– even when those Christians deny that I and other Christians *are* Christians. I pray for God to forgive them for that– I have been there. I did the same to people– and I was mistaken. Please believe me when I say that they know not what they do, but they are acting out of concern and love for peoples’ souls. I know that I was.
An Attorney wrote:
You have been a steadfast supporter to the priesthood of believers- of both genders, as well.Thank you for speaking out on this issue since it is near and dear to my heart. i only wish that all of us lived near one another. I would love to be in a church with all of you.
Christopher Lake wrote:
I have been blessed to know a number of priests, as well as well schooled Catholics in my life. When I taught a history of the Reformation class at a former church, I sought out the advice of a Catholic priest and scholar in Dallas to help me understand the issues. I did not want the typical evangelical “Catholics are not Christians” spiel.
I learned much about the Catholic view of grace-not really different than ours. I was schooled on their view of purgatory, the veneration of Mary, etc. Although I disagree with them on issues lie purgatory and Mary, I also learned that my understanding of those Catholic beliefs was shallow at best.
However, the one thing i experienced from this man, as well as many other priests, was their love and kindness to me as I asked them questions. They never once called my beliefs “abhorrent” and even expressed admiration for men such as Billy Graham and Martin Luther.
Catholics have a friend in me and I will stand against such derogatory statements of Catholics by men like Challies. I think he will need to get himself ready since I believe we will see lots of Catholics in heaven at which time Jesus will slap some of us evangelicals all upside the head for our lack of love towards one another.
In fact, why do I get the feeling that I would get a hug from Pope Francis and condescension from certain Neo-Cals?
Hester wrote:
Awesome comment.
@ Cassie:
KG systematically drove any elder or staff member that disagreed with him.
Daisy wrote:
An anecdote from my past is my introduction to serious porn in my college days; I think it was a paperback titled “Neighborhood B&D Party” or something similar. I remember reading it and found it completely boring and dumb.
You see, I’d been reading classic Fantasy & SF for around ten years previous, starting with Andre Norton juveniles around age twelve. I’d taken long trips through the realm of Story for a decade; when I cracked the cover of that porn paperback, I was looking for Story and found NONE.
All I can figure is my sojourn with Story through places of Wonder had vaccinated me against porn. Or at least upped my resistance to it.
Don’t know if Deb & Dee will delete this, but Christian Monist once related a comment by one of his uncles: “Bait a trap with p*s*y and you’ll catch a preacher every time.”
May wrote:
Probably because to the “poet” (and I use that term loosely) Calvinists are the ONLY Real Christians.
Mara wrote:
That anything like Ayn Rand male heroes being all concerned with their weight? (“Am I fat? Am I getting fat? Does this make me look fat? Do I look fat? Do you think I’m fat? Am I getting fat? Does this make me look fat? Do I look fat? Do you think I’m fat? …”)
Funniest [Fake] Mark Driscoll tweet of the day:
https://twitter.com/fakedriscoll/status/410924138241327104
__
“Counterfeit Orthodox Christian Currency, Perhaps?”
hmmm…
‘All things considered’, this Acts 29 religious network is acting much like a Neo-Calvinist cancer, whereas knowing Christ is no longer the focus or objective, but one of church growth/multiplication with an reformed-orthodoxy-like-theme. Hence they have strapped on ‘reformed’ orthodoxy giving the outward appearance of status quo ‘reformed’ Christianity. The only community they appear to be interested is their own; as this is a striking feature or characteristic of this religious group network.
When considering the characteristics of an Acts 29 ‘replant’, one is looking at a type of ‘virus-like activity’, that is ‘allowed’ to inundate an existing christian church-body, with the ultimate objective of replacing existing religious DNA with its (Acts 29) own. The product thus will not resemble the original.
In contrast, these over-all features are more striking when one examines the New Testament scriptures for the pattern of believer multiplication, and Christian faith based growth. Faith in Jesus, God’s only Son, was the basis of all New Testament activity and the purpose of the writings and letters it contains.
*
“…As you therefore have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in the faith just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.” ~ The Apostle Paul to the Colossian church.
“…And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.” ~ The Apostle Paul to Timothy.
___
Notes:
Reference(s): New Testament: Colossians 2:6 & 7; 2 Timothy 2:2.
—
JeffT wrote:
From Challies’ blog:
“How are we, as Protestants, to think of this pope?”
I don’t know Tim. Please tell me.
Daisy wrote:
If you go to the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood, Resources and download ‘Recovering Biblical Manhood & Womanhood’ there is a 10 page forward devoted to this very thing you can go to by clicking on ‘Foreword’.
I’ve only skim read it, but it looks pretty good.
dee wrote:
Dee,
You would definitely get a hug from the Pope, sister! 🙂 Well, not that I should presume to speak for him, but I think that we’ve seen enough of his heart to know that he would never turn down a show of genuine love and “I’m with you, I’m on your side” solidarity to anyone who has experienced spiritual abuse and other forms of abuse.
Have you seen this statement from him on the one miracle he said he would do, if he had a choice to do any miracle? I was so moved that it brought tears to my eyes: http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/if-pope-could-perform-one-miracle-it-would-be-to-heal-children/
@ Daisy:
My drinking is limited to s small glass of red wine, usually a malbec in the evening, plus a margarita or glass of wine at a wedding reception or such. In my 20s and early 30s I drank quite a bit, complements of first spouse and her dad. Sometimes I order the juice part of a drink without the alcohol. Like a Sea Breeze without the wind — grapefruit and cranberry juice together is a great drink.
@ linda:
We do a worship time at home on Sunday mornings. Follow the lectionary and use the weekly selection from a Christian magazine that is of moderate persuasion vis a vis most of the controversial issues in evangelical Christianity. And then we sing a hymn that we pick as being appropriate to the scripture passage. And we like to go to concerts, etc., at churches, especially gospel music concerts in black churches.
@ E.G.:
Might keep him busy for a while so that he does not do the other sort of mischief he seems to get into. Idle hands — devil’s workshop is an old maxim.
___
“Acts 29: A Sea Breeze without the ‘wind’ ?”
@ An Attorney
hmmm..
Forget the ‘glass’, forget the booze,
…a foul stanch – just a bunch of rotting fruit.
What?
“There is a way that seems right unto a man, but that way leads unto death…”
We see that here with this Acts 29 ‘re-plant’.
Exactly.
(sadface)
Sopy
—
@ Hester:
Hester & Daisy,
Re: Porn Subscriptions by Zip Code
Take a look at this study:
Markets: Red Light States: Who Buys Online Adult Entertainment?
http://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/jep.23.1.209
The researchers analyzed porn use on a zip code basis. As we know, some zip codes are more religious than others.
Interesting stats on Online Adult Entertainment Use:
• Porn use in zip codes that have a high number of people who regularly attend church is just as high as in less religious zip codes, however those in highly religious zip codes don’t consume as much porn on Sunday mornings. They make up for the reduction the rest of the week. (pp. 216-217)
• Porn subscriptions are slightly more prevalent in states that have enacted conservative legislation on sexuality….In the 27 “defense of marriage” states, subscriptions to porn entertainment are slightly more prevalent than in other states. (p. 219)
• Subscriptions are also more prevalent in states where survey indicate conservative positions on religion, gender roles, and sexuality. (p. 219)
• Utah has the higher number of porn subscriptions in every way: (per 1000 people, per 1000 home internet users, per 1000 broadband users)
• The top states for porn subscriptions per 1000 home broadband users are: Utah, Alaska, Mississippi, Hawaii, Oklahoma, Arkansas, North Dakota, Louisiana, Florida and West Virginia. (p. 217)
• More money in the zip code correlates with more porn. (p. 216)”…a $1,000 increase in average household income in a zip code is associated with a 0.36 percent increase in subscriptions.”
• And it makes sense then: A more educated zip code correlates with more porn subscriptions. (p. 216)
“When a zip code hosts a higher proportion of people with college degrees, that zip code has slightly more subscribers to these adult entertainment sites: a 1 percent increase in college graduates is associated with a 0.12 percent increase in subscribers.”
TW wrote:
Take it further. How are we as protestants to think of protestantism with its hate-filled antagonisms between the groups, and its askew prioritizing of “issues?” How are we to think of preachers who distort scripture to suit their own agendas? How are we to think of systems (think approved SS curricula) which count on the supposed ignorance (lack of information) of the “student” in order to “preach another gospel?” Think of the way some of our leaders approve vice and castigate virtue. Think of the elevation of politics and money and numbers on the “correct” pew presented as the ultimate goals of the church.
Excuse me, I have to go throw up now. It is either cry or throw up, and I choose the former.
Christopher Lake wrote:
Christopher, I wish I could recall the context of that particular statement of mine so that I could respond by providing additional explanation. I’ve spent a lot of time studying Reformed theology from Calvin’s Institutes on down in order to better understand it. While I’ve found I disagree with much of it, I’ve also found that when engaging a good Biblically based discussion of Reformed theology I must defend my own views in a similar manner.
Although I do disagree with much of Reformed theology, I do have respect for it because Reformed theologians, like all good theologians, do attempt to ground their theology in a rigorous application of the Bible. In fact, I would argue that whether you agree with the Reformed, that being one of the elect is entirely the result of God grace in giving one faith, or you agree with an Arminian view, that faith is one’s response to God’s prevenient grace, you really end up in the same place. That is, in either case, one’s faith will result in love of God and love of neighbor. My one complaint would be that many times in discussions by Reformed theologians they spend so much time discussing election and the ‘golden chain’ of salvation, that they don’t focus much on what a regenerate believer looks like, i.e. they will reflect the love of God and neighbor in their life.
As to my comment then, I suspect that my desire for the word play got in the way of defining who the target of my comment was. As I said, I don’t recall the context, but I don’t attribute that to all of Reformed theology. My particular objection is to the neo-Calvinist, YRR, or ‘Calvinista’ brand of Calvinism, whichever title you want to choose. These are primarily the celebrity preachers (I refuse to call them ministers) that wed Calvinist theology to an extremely authoritative view of church polity and belief where the preacher rules the church with an iron fist and theological disagreements of any kind are not tolerated; where women are marginalized and excluded from any significant role in the church; and the preacher is entitled to use the hard-earned donations of the congregation to fund a lavish lifestyle. Of course, these latter abuses are not exclusive to segments of Reformed theology alone, you find them all across the spectrum of religious beliefs. At any rate, in the area of Reformed theology, my strong dislike is limited to that segment.
@ not saying: Could you tell me if the disagreements in mind ever included theology?
TW wrote:
Chutzpah-I could give a rip about Challies telling me how to view this Pope.He presumes to speak for Protestants? I cannot believe this silliness.
@ Janey: That is funny. I will retweet it today.
dee wrote:
Yep. Any guy who doesn’t allow a woman to even read scripture in the public assembly i.e. doesn’t allow women to have a voice… That guy sure as heck doesn’t speak for me. Oh the bumbling arrogance and presumption of these entitled ‘elites’. They need some serious cold slap, wake up calls. Somehow, they need to see how irrelevant they really are outside their tiny circle.
I tend to get amused at the Reformed/Neo Cal response to Catholics. Guys like James White are positively cruel about them. The reason I am amused is that they are “Reformed” which means “Reforming the Catholic Church”. They are protestants which means protesting the indulgences and what they saw as corruption. The Reformers kept many of the accroutrements of the Catholic religion. The church/state, infant baptism, corruption of their own, etc, being among them. It is almost like a Hatfield and McCoy feud that has lasted 500 years!
dee wrote:
Haven’t looked at Challies for ages, so I couldn’t resist paying a visit. He says “Those within the Roman Catholic Church who have experienced salvation (and certainly there are those who have!) have done so despite the church’s official teaching, not through it.”
I don’t find this attitude particularly objectionable, this wouldn’t be the only case where a religious institution needs to be kept separate from the ‘ordinary’ membership that attends it. It’s a far cry from some hot Prots.
@ JeffT:
@ Christopher Lake:
Christopher wrote:
I think that was actually my comment. That is, I’m sure I remember making it, and I think Jeff subsequently “Reply w/Quoted” it. In any case it’s the sort of thing I would write.
I could defend what I wrote in semantic terms (e.g. strictly speaking, doctrine does not save/sanctify/reform a person), but from the depth of Christopher’s challenge I recognise that isn’t the whole issue here. I may have been right in semantics but wrong in spirit, and it’s the latter that counts.
Christopher – I appreciate the thought and experience that went into your comment, and I think it deserves a proper thoughtful engagement rather than a mere reply (if you see what I mean). I’ll need to ponder a little more first, but I’ll be back this evening (it being 2pm the noo in Scotland!).
Lin and Mara and anyone else:
If things work out, I’m hopeful that in 2014 a book entitled “Free In Deed: Escaping the Spiritual Bondage of Role Assignment by Gender and not Giftedness” will be published. I understand the biblical principles that teaching, discipling, prophesying, encouraging, serving, leading etc… are all gender neutral. No where in the New Testament does the Scripture restrict any gift of the Holy Spirit or deed (action) of the Christian on the basis of gender. The problem in our religious culture in the west is the male (and sometime ‘female’ in liberal religious traditions) infatuation with “authority,” an infatuation that is both anti-Christ and sub-Christian in its desire for control, power and rule over others.
When things begin to pop in writing, the pop fast, and this one is popping. 🙂 I’ve asked my friends, the grand divas of Wartburg to partner with me on the project (we’ve been talking about it for two years, but I’m getting something done this month). The reason for this comment is because of the comments I read from the two of you (above) and other “anonymous” commenters. You expressed some experience with authoritative male control and power plays within the church, and I would like for you, if possible, to write me and go into greater detail.
I would love to use your stories in the book (without your names, unless you give me permission). My goal is for the book to be written with a positive slant, the first section exposing the problem of role assignments by gender in the church, home and society, but the much larger second section, giving the biblical and spiritual (New Covenant) basis for rejecting such a notion, and assigning roles (teaching, preaching, serving, accounting, leading, exhorting, prophesying, etc….) on the basis of gifts God gives to people.
If anyone is willing to tell me their story – I’m looking for first-person accounts that people don’t mind having in print – then please email me at either wwburleson@gmail.com or istoriaministries@gmail.com
Thanks!
@ Ken:
He also said:
1. The Roman Catholic Church remains committed to a false gospel, a gospel of salvation by grace plus works.
2. Rome remains fully committed to a gospel that cannot and will not save a single soul.
3. Good deeds done 2 promote a false gospel r the most despicable deeds of all
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Thanks Nick! I didn’t think that was me and I checked my posts in the last few threads and didn’t find it, but I’m getting older so I don’t always remember what I’ve said 🙂
At any rate, I gave some of my thoughts on Reformed theology anyway.
JeffT wrote:
JeffT,
According to Nick, I mistakenly attributed the quote to you, and I apologize for that mistake. Thank you for replying so thoughtfully to the concerns that I voiced. I agree with your basic points in your reply. I used to be a Calvinist, and I came to that position, largely, through reading Scripture and books of Scriptural exegesis, but I do think, now, that there are serious exegetical problems with at least certain aspects of the five points of Calvinism. Limited atonement, particularly, seems to fly in the face of multitudes Biblical texts which clearly say that Christ died for everyone– and not simply for “some people in all of the different groups of people,” which tends to be the Calvinist view. I see other exegetical problems with “the system” of the five points as well, but there is no need to go into them here. (I know that Calvinists, and other Protestants, certainly have exegetical problems with my Catholic faith too!) Even with my disagreements, I try not to speak too harshly of Reformed theology, generally, because I know that Calvinists generally tend to take Biblical exegesis very seriously, and I have to respect that.
Insofar as your experience with Reformed people seeming not to seek to live lives of obedience and holiness, I have heard of that being the case, here and there, with some Reformed people, but it was definitely not the case in the churches where I was a member. If there is anything that Capitol Hill Baptist Church in D.C. and Desert Springs Church in New Mexico are serious about, it is wanting to know God from Scripture and seeking to live holy lives, even to the point of making radical sacrifices (in giving, evangelism, works of mercy and charity, and so on). CHBC does have its darker side, with the “shunning-as-church-discipline,” but that is a sad aberration in what is, generally, a vibrant and holy congregation. I do take you at your word, though, that your experience of Reformed people has been quite different. That is very unfortunate. Historically, Reformed theology has strongly stressed the need for personal holiness, but there are always some Reformed people who seem to get most or all of the doctrine, intellectually, without it making a very positive difference in their lives. Of course, there are some Catholics who are the same, and some people in all streams of theology, whose faith is so heavily “bookish” that it is missing much of the “lived-out” aspect. I’m not sure that the problem is any worse in Reformed circles than anywhere else in Christendom though. I definitely know many, many Reformed people who “get it,” intellectually and in lived-out experience.
The “Celebrity Preachers” syndrome is definitely a huge problem in Reformed circles these days. I don’t know if that was always the case, but it’s clearly there today. As you mentioned though, that problem can be seen in many different communities of Christianity. Even in the Catholic Church, which tends not make celebrities too much of local parish priests, at least in my experience, there are a few “Celebrity Priests.” Some of them are simply widely known and loved for their ministry and their preaching, and they seem to not think too highly of themselves, in a healthy way. A good example would be Father Robert Barron, whose “Word on Fire” video commentaries are some of the best things to be found on Youtube in my opinion. The Church has had some “Celebrity Priests” who became very problematic though, such as Father John Corapi, who had an amazing conversion story and who seemed to minister very faithfully for many years, but then… well, it’s a long and sad story that ultimately led to him leaving the priesthood. Anyway, I’m rambling here, so I’ll stop. 🙂 Thanks again for your reply, brother.
Nick,
Thanks for the correction about my misattribution of that quote to Jeff! I’ll look forward to your reply later, as you have a chance to write more. Thanks for taking the time to engage with me, brother. Blessings to you.
Becky….and other members of Countryside reading. What would you like done? What do you think would be the right thing for Kevin Galloway or Acts 29 to do? Can I hear your thoughts as to what would make this wrong right? I’d love to hear Bucks thoughts as well….
Ken wrote:
Ken,
There was a fairly lengthy period of my Christian life in which I would have said that Catholics who have “experienced salvation” have done so despite their Church’s official teaching, not because of it. After being personally challenged, in a very unexpected way, to study Catholic theology more deeply, including Catholic Biblical exegesis and the writings of the early Church Fathers and contemporary Church documents, I reached the conclusion that I seriously misunderstood, for years, what I *thought* was the Church’s official teaching on many, many issues.
Have you ever read the “Joint Declaration on Justification” from the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation? If not, you might find it to be an interesting and surprising document: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
@ Christopher Lake:
Christopher, I do appreciate your thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said and you said it very well!
Becky and others at Countryside…what does your former Pastor Rick Jones say about all this? Can anyone find out?
Eagle wrote:
Eagle,
Hmm… I checked my e-mail just last night but didn’t see anything from you. Maybe I overlooked it somehow? I’ll look again.
The most widely-known of the “Acts 29” churches and “9 Marks-friendly” churches are by no means representative of the wider world of Reformed Christianity. As I wrote to someone else in another thread, many, many Reformed Christians completely disavow themselves of these churches and don’t even view them as being historically Reformed.
As for Capitol Hill Baptist and what I experienced there, that congregation did so much to help me, practically, and love me, in word and in deed, as a physically disabled and unemployed man, while I was a member. Mark Dever’s silent unfriending of me hurt, and it still hurts. I can’t justify that on any level, and I won’t even try to do so. As for the shunning that I’ve experienced, from many of my former friends there, and the very little personal engagement that I’ve received, from most of the *rest* of my CHBC friends, I honestly think that they are scared to interact with me. In their eyes, I have done the virtually unthinkable. A person who is as enthusiastic a Reformed Baptist as I was, and as happy and involved a CHBC member, just does not become Catholic. It must seem like a truly insane move to them, and I think that many of them were/are so frightened by it that they just would rather “leave me to God” to deal with and pray for me, rather than reach out and attempt to engage me about it. I understand that possible mentality. I think it’s deeply mistaken, but I understand it. I also think that many of them are silently heartbroken at what they see as my embracing of an eternally damning false gospel. I once viewed the Catholic Church’s teaching in exactly the same way. I was woefully mistaken, but that did not mean that I didn’t love Catholics. The fact that I longed to see them leave the Church (and become Reformed) was actually, at the time, an *expression of* my love for them, because I wanted them to be saved from what I believed (wrongly) was an enslaving treadmill of rules and rituals that had little to do with Christ. Obviously, as a Catholic, my perspective is now very, very different on the Church and her teachings and practices,
Eagle,
Also… thinking more about the questions and issues that you raised… at least as relating to CHBC, having been a highly involved member there, I saw the good and the bad. I saw an environmental lawyer volunteering to mentor inner-city children in very challenging situations. I saw women and men working with International Justice Mission to free and rescue young people who are enslaved as part of an international system of human trafficking. I personally experienced fellow members making financial sacrifices to help me in fulfilling hopes and dreams that I had. All of those things were, and are, very good. I also saw and experienced some bad things, many of which I only came to understand as *being* bad in retrospect. In any event, I just can’t speak of that congregation in demonizing terms. I know too much that is objectively good about them, and they are still my brothers and sisters in Christ, even as they now believe that I have made an eternally serious misjudgment in returning to the Catholic Church.
About the situation of Mark and C.J. remaining friends, and Mark allowing C.J. to go to CHBC when things became heated at Covenant Life Church– I have good reason to think that Mark’s objective assessment of the situation has been compromised by his personal trust in C.J. over a friendship that has spanned many years. I don’t think that Mark can really bring himself to even *imagine* that C.J. could had known that children were being sexually abused at CLC and not have taken the proper measures to stop it. That doesn’t excuse Mark, and it certainly doesn’t excuse C.J. I’m just trying to explain the thinking that I surmise may be at play in the situation,
@ Nick Bulbeck:
@ JeffT:
@ Christopher Lake:
Doctrine is not salvific. It does not save people. Therefore, it does not reform them either. The grace of God and faith in God is what saves people, and therefore reforms them. Yes, Reformers want to change the doctrine, but more, they wish to change the organization and organizational behavior, usually by supplanting significant parts of it. The YRRs want to supplant the ORs (old reformed) in leadership in American Protestantism.
An Attorney wrote:
At which point, we have Wild in the Streets with a Calvinist coat of paint.
“FOURTEEN OR FIGHT!”
Eagle wrote:
Because their Personal Holiness has become a zero-sum game of Proving They’re Holier than the Rest of Us? That “I’m Elect and You’re Not”?
“In the Devil’s theology, the most important thing is to be Absolutely Right and to prove everyone else to be Absolutely Wrong. This does not lead to peace and harmony among men.”
— Thomas Merton, “Moral Theology of the Devil”
dee wrote:
Speaking Infallibly Ex Cathedra for Protestants.
Christopher Lake wrote:
Hi Christopher,
The point I was driving at was Challies’ attitude. Now I agree he is very critical of Catholic teaching and has every right to explain why he thinks this is the case. But at least he did not deny the existence of Christians within the Catholic church, something that reformed Christians are often accused of doing, and clearly there are some who do think that.
My own position is I do not equate church membership with actually being an authentic Christian, and this is true of churches of every hue.
It seems to me that ‘protestants’ can make a mistake by seeming to believe that we are justified by faith where ‘faith’ means believing the doctrine of justification by faith. (Don’t ask me to say that again!) Do you get what I mean? Abraham was justified by faith, but he never had an exposition of the doctrine.
Now there are plenty of religious people, across the spectrum, who attend services and go through the external rites and ceremonies, but who have no real faith, nothing internal has happened. They honour God with their lips, but their hearts are far from him characters.
You know, Kevin Galloway’s salary was pretty high for a church in decline. But from what I can gather, Acts 29 churches tend to pay high salaries to sr staffers and they are usually VERY young. That is why I asked former sojourn member about the Mars Hill/Acts 29 staffers Sojourn hired after the fall out. I am familiar with the Sojourn plants and I know their donor base cannot support so much sr staff. So I have to wonder who is subsidizing them. My guess is the SBC and even more so since they broke off from Acts 29 to start their own network. .
It seems that Acts 29 acts as a franchise operation much like SGM did with it’s churches. The church plants pay Acts 29 a percentage. I have to wonder what for? The brand? So I wonder if Sojourn is using the same franchise concept for their church plants?
@ An Attorney:
You know, a wise old pastor recently told me that the YRR come in and change the ecclesiology of a church and that in effect over time changes the soteriology. I think he has a point as in: Doctrine becomes salvation.
@ Wade Burleson:
I’ve brought this up before, so I’ll try not to belabor it here, but one facet of gender complementarianism that is problematic (for the gender comps) is that it has nothing to say to or about those who are not married and who are childless. That is something you may want to explore in any book or blog you write about the subject.
There is an inordinate amount of concern shown by gender comps on what married mothers may or may not do.
None of this is applicable to women (or men) who are childless, divorced, never married, or widowed.
I’ve spoken with never married, childless Christian males who are over 40, and they also feel very alienated and excluded by all the gender role talk, because the gender role talk only centers around parenting and marriage.
Signs in a Congregation That a Leader Has Covert Narcissistic Personality Disorder
@ Ken:
Could you provide a summary of its content? I’ve found that most gender comp teaching on the topic, if it is ever discussed (which is rare) always assumes the single person reading it will get married and reproduced one day.
Someone at another blog brought this up. She said that the gender comp female, who has never married and who is now in her late 40s or 50s, has actually said of single women during conferences that “marriage is God’s design for all women” – and again, despite the fact she herself has never married. Marriage (and motherhood) is pushed and is assumed, even when discussing single women.
Gender comp has nothing to say to or about women who are single and childless for their entire lives.
dee wrote:
Dee & Christopher too, some of the the best thinkers I’ve ever read were Jesuits.
Christopher Lake wrote:
So does the Roman Catholic Church now embrace that salvation is by faith alone? Until and unless they do, they are catering to a works-based outlook.
Even in debating Catholic laypersons (something I did years ago), they would love to quote the part from James about works, as if they believe the Bible teaches works are necessary for salvation.
Daisy wrote:
But Daisy I think that too many people emphasize ‘faith alone’ to the point that almost disdain any call to works as a part of the Christian life, which is why I believe the book of James has much to teach us on that subject. I wholeheartedly agree that works are not a scorecard where salvation is earned if you tally up enough points. On the other hand, if you truly have faith, good works will naturally flow from that. So I would go so far as to say that if one claims to have faith but they have no acts that demonstrate love of neighbor, then they really have no faith at all, which a point in James where he says “So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.”
Muff Potter wrote:
True!! I went to a Jesuit University in Wisconsin!! I have the student loan debt to prove it! 😛 But my interaction with the Jesuits at Marquette really impressed me! if only Georgetown can be that good as Marquette! 😛
In other news, the annual Geminid meteor shower is tonight, and I have it on good authority that we will all be able to watch it at some point regardless of continent. Sadly, it’s cloudy in Scotland (though it may clear later).
Mind you, the forecast fer the morrer’s pure mingin so it is. We’re aff doon the Peak.
JeffT wrote:
Because “faith alone” can become just sitting on your butt having Faith Faith Faith Faith Faith while you wait to go to Heaven. (Daisy, have you ever been advised by Marrieds to “Just have Faith(TM)” regarding your singleness?)
@ Daisy: The point James is making is this: works are supposed to be part of a life of faith; the love of Christ extended toward others. He’s very blunt about faith not being something that’s selfish and in-group cliqueish (recall his words to those who refuse to treat the poor with the respect they accord to the rich).
Although there are things in the book of James that make me a little crazy, his statement that “Faith without works is dead” is more than likely *exactly* what your Catholic friends were attempting to point out. I believe they have things far “righter” than many evangelicals – in this country, the RCC has done pioneering work in social services, for example. That’s one of the many ways in which much of the evangelical church has singularly failed to be as Christ to others, because so many choose to wall themselves off from “the world” instead of truly living *in* it.
@ Eagle: Some parts of Catholicism shine – the Jesuit legacy of education is one of them.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Thanks for the heads up Nick! Here in Southern Cali we have clear skies even though the ‘light pollution’ is abysmal. Castor & Pollux glitter like diamonds as always but with the added brilliance of Jupiter. Only the Almighty can conjure up such a gorgeous tableau.
@ Eagle:
I think Hemant Mehta (Friendly Atheist) did a post or two on the topic.
Anon 1 wrote:
I couldn’t really answer for certain, anon1. I didn’t have that kind of knowledge; I’d be guessing. I would assume someone outside the church is putting up the funding – or it has a pretty wealthy donor from within the church. As far as the network, check this out:
http://sojournnetwork.com/about/existing-church/
They ask for 5%.
@ former Sojourn member:.
No…I looked over the posts for the Friendly Atheist and I don’t see anything posted on Driscoll and plagarism.
The answer is to become a part of the Elevation network.
We have 100% success rate and also you get a change to hear Pastor Furtick in serives this “3d Christmas”…we pass out the 3d glasses and it is a spiritual experience…you feel like you are on holy ground.
We have no problem with a 60,000 salary, our Pastor makes that much in a month!
This foreclosed church need to get some audacious, “sun stand still” faith and they wouldn’t be in this mess!
Also, a pair of tight skinny jeans will increase attendance about 12$ too.
@ Tim Lawing:
Tim – you made my day!
@ Tim Lawing:
Welcome back to your home away from home. How is Mr. Rogers faring these days?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
“In other news, evidence is emerging of water geysers erupting from the surface of Europa, one of the four major moons of Jupiter, and thought by many astrobiologists to be one of the bodies in the solar system most likely to support life.”
+++++++++++++++++
hmmm…. so, that puts us already on the 2nd day! Let’s see here… by next Tuesday, in other news we should be hearing reports of intelligent life forms on Europa.
@ Christopher Lake:
Hey Tim, I am one of those that you will hear say critical things here about calvinist theology,& the calvinistas, though rarely about individual calvinists, of which I know many. And love most of them.
I’ll continue to be critical of calvinist theology, it being the source of the most appalling angst in my own life, responsible for the current rift between me & God & contributing greatly to me nearly being hospitalised with grief after my Mum died. If God is the God of Calvinism I’m stuffed because I can’t love him despite trying for over 20 years: laying things at the cross,fasting & praying, reading the Bible numerous times, begging God to change my heart & all the other things other christians do which seem to change things for them & enable them to settle this issue for themselves. I’ve done it all, & back in the day of being a very orthodox evangelical I’d have had no explanation for my experience because I truly believed God would answer such prayers. I don;t know hoew to be sure enough he is not Calvin’s God
Sorry, am continuing into a second comment as the box is playing up for me- thus the spelling! I find Scripture pretty malleable & not straightforward enough to prove to me that that’s not who God is.
So my criticism comes out of hard painful experience…& until something changes it will continue. But Dee & Debs kindly allow my voice here.
@ Steve240:
I imagine in addition to this pastor’s salary and housing allowance he also had other perks like a book allowance (could be like $20) and is able to get reimbursed for meals and other expenses. Sad to see this kind of abuse.
+++++++++++++
or, perhaps having a son’s expensive birthday party at an entertainment center & putting it on the church’s tab calling it “team building”, inviting all the staff & other strategic people in the church.
Eagle,
I finally found your e-mail message in my inbox and sent you a reply. I look forward to communicating more, brother! Thanks! 🙂
@ An attorney on–
Thanks! As I said, we do just fine with choosing between some excellent Bible studies and Sunday Schools which are lay led.
Since we believe actual worship to be private, and the purpose of a preaching service to be evangelism (2 fold), with none available here we see no need to add it into the mix.
We’ve been helped–or corrupted! :)–a great deal by the little book “Pagan Christianity.”
Daisy (and others reading and commenting here on the “faith/works” issue),
The Catholic Church teaches that our salvation is by God’s grace alone. Even our faith is a gift of God’s grace. Any works that we do, as a result of our faith, are by God’s grace. Therefore, our salvation is entirely by God’s grace. That is the Catholic teaching.
The Church teaches that we are called to put our faith in Christ alone. The objection that some Protestants have about Catholics “trusting in our works” to save us is really a category mistake, in the Catholic understanding, because we trust in Christ. Our faith is in Him alone. Catholics are called to a personal relationship with Him through faith. We are accused of “trusting in our works,” but it’s not really even logically possible, it seems to me, for a person to have a personal relationship of faith with his/her works!
So far, we have the truths of salvation by grace alone, through faith in Christ alone. Catholics affirm both of these truths. As for being justified by faith alone, in one sense, the Church opposes that concept, and in another sense, she supports it. She opposes it in the sense that St. James meant it– man is not justified by faith alone but by works. That is literally what James tells us. However, he is referring to a faith that is claimed with the lips but not lived out in everyday life. In other words, it’s a faith without true love for God and for human beings made in His image. Do *you* believe that people can be justified and saved by “faith alone,” if that faith does not include love for God and neighbor? That is the “faith alone” that is condemned by the Catholic Church.
Some Protestants refer to the Council of Trent, and they say that the Church condemned the true, Biblical Gospel at this Council, because the Council explicitly condemned justification by faith alone. However, if one reads the Trent documents, it’s clear that the only “faith alone” that is condemned in them is the faith that is described in the Bible as “These people praise me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me”…
To sum all of this up in a positive way, if the “faith alone” that you have is a faith that is characterized by love for God and human beings made in His image, and if that faith leads you to works of love for God and others, as it naturally should, then St. James does not condemn you, and neither does the Council of Trent.
Man is not justified by his/her works. The Catholic Church *specifically condemns* the concept of salvation by works as a heresy. Man is also not justified by faith alone, if the “faith alone” is the kind that St. James describes. Justification and salvation are by grace alone through faith in Christ alone, but that faith must be more than “lip service to God.” True faith changes our hearts and our lives. Faith that does not have love for God and neighbor is not saving faith. Jesus and all of the New Testament authors make this clear. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.
Christopher Lake–very well put! And not only is it the teaching of the Catholic Church, but of most in the Reformed camp and certainly in the Wesleyan Holiness version of the Arminian camp. About the only ones I know that disagree are the ardently dispensational free grace camp.
Beakerj wrote:
Beakerj,
I completely hear where you’re coming from; my own life has had more a good bit of suffering and grief. During the years when I was a Calvinist, I was more comforted than afflicted by the theology, because the idea of God being completely in control of, and completely sovereign over, all the terrible things that had happened to me *at least* meant that all of the suffering ultimately had a benevolent purpose– a perfect purpose, because God is perfect. Therefore, even when I couldn’t understand exactly why God had ordained this or that tragedy in my life, I could at least trust His heart in the midst of it, because I trusted Him. If people sinned against me and hurt me, God was not the one who committed the sin, but in my Calvinist thinking, He allowed the sin against me to happen for a good purpose in my life.
I’m not a Calvinist anymore. Through much study and prayer, I came to believe that certain aspects of the theology are simply extremely difficult, if not impossible, to logically reconcile with clear passages and statements in Scripture about God and His ways with human beings. Serious Bible study played a huge role in my rejection of Calvinism, as did study of the writings of the early Church Fathers– many of whom even predate the finalization of the New Testament into a definite, settled canon.
You and I are likely on the same page about Calvinism. I am more than willing to critique the theology, but I just cringe when I read comments such as “Calvinism sucks,” because I know that, for me in the past, and for many sincere brothers and sisters now, they understand the God of Scripture to *be* the “God of Calvinism.” They love God and would die for Him. I disagree seriously with aspects of their theology now, and I’m willing to my write about my disagreement, but I just don’t want to write about it in terms which would denigrate their faith. I hear you, though, on the angst that Calvinism can cause. I have been there and experienced that, many times, and I don’t ever want to return to it.
linda wrote:
Linda,
Thank you, and amen and amen, sister!
Thanks Christopher (who I called Tim, sorry long day here at the coalface)…I hear you & having experienced over 20 years of extremely debitating illness I understand why people can block out some of the implications for others due to the implications for themselves, especially in desperate times. I just never could…nor get up much confidence God would love me if he didn’t love everyone. I cannot divorce the comfort to be had from the potential horror…I have a new niece or nephew arriving next month & the idea they may not be on the list is horrific. Better to never be born. I am so burned by this objectivity is beyond me. I’ll stop banging my drum now…
JeffT wrote:
Jeff, this is a great point you make (i’m referring specifically to your last point). This is essentially the ancient heresy of gnosticism – What you believe (ie – mental ascent) is all the matters. How you actually live your life is of little consequence.
Not really. The contents are not a part of the mortgage. In many cases such things will be hauled away as abandoned property the bank does not want to get into disputes over who owns what. They’d rather have a clean building that matches the description of the deed.
BeakerJ wrote:
Beakerj,
I hear you, brother. One of the many things that has led me to turn away from Calvinism is intense meditation (Christian reflection) on the Biblical truth that “God is love.” That is His essence. He has many attributes, but love is fundamental among them. In retrospect, as a Calvinist, I *affirmed* that God is love, but my personal operating theology was more along the lines of “God is His absolute sovereignty over all things.” However, the Bible says that God is love, and if that is true, how can it also be true that Christ died to save not every human being but only the elect? It’s ironic to me that so many Calvinists are quick to say that Catholic teachings clearly contradict Scripture, because in my reading and study, if anything clearly contradicts Scripture, it is the Calvinist doctrine of limited atonement! Still, I respect and love my Calvinist brothers and sisters in Christ all the same. Now, I’ll stop banging *my* drum! 🙂
wrote:
We’ve been helped–or corrupted! –a great deal by the little book “Pagan Christianity.”
Thanks for the recommendation, Linda. I’m looking forward to reading this book soon 🙂
P.S. Beakerj,
If I erred in calling you “brother,” and you’re actually a “sister,” please accept my sincere apologies. I just realized that I don’t actually know your gender! So sorry!
Christopher Lake wrote:
That’s rather a disingenuous way of putting it. 🙂
The fact is that the Roman Catholic Church is very much against the teaching that salvation is by faith alone…
And, unless they’ve changed, they believe the only way to obtain God’s grace is via sacraments (and only administered by a RC priest), another view I disagree with.
@ Daisy: ??? Christopher is telling the truth, Daisy.
I don’t mean to be contentious here… but sacraments aren’t meant to be a method of “getting grace.” At least, they certainly aren’t in my church (ELCA – Lutheran), and I don’t believe they are in the RCC or the Anglican church, either.
Have there been people who see a need to “earn” God’s grace, love and favor? The answer is “yes,” but it’s equally applicable to all people in *all* churches, no matter whether they’re Catholic, Orthodox or Protestant. And there have been people in the RCC who have emphasized certain things too much – as in so many Protestant churches. (Like some under discussion here.) That doesn’t mean that the people who are off the rails are right.
dee wrote:
My mansion is still bigger than Pastor Steven’s. He’s building a 60 sq ft shack up here in the real heavenly elevation, BTW.
“I awoke one morning around 1981 and was struck with the sudden realization that it had been a terrible idea to name the mailman “Mr McFeely”. By then, though, it was far too late. Far too late.”
Fred McFeely Rogers
Christopher Lake wrote:
Argh…formatting..
@ BeakerJ:
Jesus said that “a little child will lead them”. I suspect he would also allow that a “little woman” could lead them as well!!!!
Daisy wrote:
Daisy,
You claimed that my comments about the Catholic Church teaching salvation by grace alone were putting the matter “disingenuously.” I am a sinner; I know that full, and painfully, well. However, I am not a person who seeks to mislead people about the Catholic faith, whether on the matter of salvation by grace alone, or on any other matter. I would not state anything disingenuously about Church teaching. I have been seriously studying the Catholic faith, from Sacred Scripture and from official Church documents, for years.
The fact is that the Church does teach our salvation is by grace alone. However, that teaching does not equate to the Lutheran/Reformed understanding of justification by faith alone, involving inputed righteousness. The Church does not teach imputed righteousness.
In my last comment to you, I explicitly said that the Church teaches against justification by faith alone, *in the specific sense* that St. James teaches against it, when he says that “man is justified not by faith alone but (also) by works.” Those are his words, not mine. In the parable of the sheep and the goats, Jesus clearly links our works to our eternal salvation or damnation– and, unlike many Protestant pastors, Jesus does not add any qualifications to the effect of, “Good works are only evidence of the Christian already having been justified by faith alone!”
Jesus does not say anything remotely like that, and neither does St. James. Neither does St. Paul– who, when I was a Protestant, I heard my pastors teach from in Scripture, much more than from *Jesus Himself,* on the all-important matter of how to be justified before God. (That seems to be a very strange way of reading Scripture to me, reading Jesus through the lens of Paul, rather than vice versa, but that is what I have often found in Protestant sermons, as good as they often are in many ways.)
The Catholic Church does, in fact, teach that our salvation is by God’s grace alone– but we don’t believe that Scripture teaches God’s grace to be a matter of either “faith alone” or “works alone.” We cannot “work our way to Heaven.” That concept is a heresy. The Catholic Church clearly condemns that heresy of “earning salvation through works.” It’s also a heresy to say that a claimed “faith alone” can save us, if that faith is not marked by love for God and neighbor. That kind of “faith alone” is not the saving faith described in Scripture. It is dead. It cannot save.
The Catholic Church does teach that grace comes through the sacraments, but she does *not* teach that it comes “only* through the sacraments. Speaking of our salvation being by grace alone, for cradle Catholics, God’s grace first comes through baptism– infant baptism. How much more gracious can you get? From our infancy, as Catholics, God’s grace is already at work in our lives, in the Sacrament of Baptism. Of course, for us to be saved, as adults, that infant baptism must flower forth in faith– faith in Christ alone–, but even before Catholics are old enough to exercise conscious faith, God’s grace is already efficaciously at work in our lives. However, if you think that they sacraments are the *only* means of God’s grace in the Catholic Church, you have been gravely misinformed– whether by a priest, a nun, or a lay Catholic. This short article on the subject may be helpful: http://www.catholicbible101.com/whatisgrace.htm
In the Catholic Church, our faith in *Christ alone*, and our works that *come* from that faith, *and* the Sacrament of Baptism that we receive, before we are old enough to even *exercise* faith in Christ– *all* of these things are matters of God’s incredible grace. Our faith is a gift of God’s grace. Without grace, we would never even come to faith in Christ. The faith-inspired works that we do are only *possible* because of God’s grace. However, these works don’t save us. God’s grace saves us, beginning to end. I am not being disingenuous about that. I am stating the Catholic teaching on grace.
Beakerj,
Thanks so much for the correction, my sister in Christ. 🙂 Again, I’m sorry for the mistake. God bless!
Ken wrote:
Ken,
I completely get what you mean (and I agree) about some (and only some, thank God!) Protestants “seeming to believe that we are justified by faith where ‘faith’ means believing the doctrine of justification by faith.”
As I’ve written above to Daisy, it is obviously true, from the documents of the Council of Trent, that at the Council. the Catholic Church explicitly condemned *a certain understanding* of justification by faith alone.” Many Protestants read this, or hear about it second-hand from a pastor, and they assume that, full stop, Trent obviously anathematized “the Biblical Gospel.” However, in reading the Trent documents, it is clear to me that what they are condemning is a form of “faith alone” that is not formed in and by love for God. In other words, they seem to be condemning a claimed “faith alone in Christ alone” that actually has no real love for God, and thus, a faith does not *manifest itself* in works of love for God and neighbor. (Whew– talk about difficult-to-read sentences! Sorry about that!)
The Catholic Church has never taught, in her official documents, that we can be saved by our works, or by “trusting in our works.” Both Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism were condemned as heresies long, long ago by the Church. Some Catholics mistakenly hold to one or the other anyway, and that is a grievous problem.
The Church teaches that we are saved by God’s grace alone, which brings us to accepting the gift of faith in Christ alone, and which brings us to even have the *desire* at all to *accept* that gift. From that foundation– of grace-inspired faith in Christ alone–, the Church then affirms that for that faith to be saving faith, it must manifest itself in a person’s life. Faith without works is dead… but works can’t save us… and if a person is saved, it is by God’s grace, leading to faith, informed by love for God and neighbor.
O@ Christopher Lake: one thought: Lutheranism is *not* Calvinistic; Calvinists see Lutheran belief and practice through their own lenses, which -sadly – are a bit on the tarnished side. Don’t assume that the Reformed view of Lutheranism is either accurate or correct – it’s off by many, many degrees.
@ Christopher Lake: not so sure about semi-Pelagianism, but then – ??? Maybe you could point me to some info.?
Thanks in advance, C.!
Numo,
Oh, I’m definitely aware that Lutheranism and Calvinism are quite different! 🙂 My sister and brother-in-law are Missouri Synod Lutherans.
About semi-Pelagianism, at least as relating to its historic condemnation by the Catholic Church, here’s a short overview: http://www.ewtn.com/library/answers/capelagi.htm
Also, a longer article on the same subject: http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2009/08/is-the-catholic-church-semi-pelagian/
@ Christopher Lake: thanks – feel better soon! You’re in our thoughts and prayers.
Btw, i’m ELCA.
@ Christopher Lake:
Also, I don’t view semi-Pelagianism as a negative thing. 😉