Cross Conference Has Removed the Video (Title Change-12/9/13)

Wording removed on 12/9/13

342px-Burj_KhalifaBurj Khalifa

12/9/13  Thank you Cross Conference. 

 

Yesterday, we discovered a highly disturbing video with what could be perceived, by some, as threatening language.

We do not know who is in charge of the Cross Conference ( a new Reformed student missions conference link ) but we know our readers will make sure this gets to them. We are sorry to break into our series on an Acts 29 church but we feel this is an emergency. We are not exaggerating.

What would most Americans think if a Muslim imam stood in front of the Sears Tower in Chicago, speaking about the pillars of Islam, and then said: "We will take this tower and city down!" Obviously, there would be an outcry of mammoth proportions. 

We are not questioning John Piper's motives. We know he is talking about a spiritual dimension. However, can you imagine how it could be viewed by the people in the United Arab Emirates? Please, for the sake of the Message, remove this video now!

The above quote takes place in the first 20+ seconds.

Comments

Cross Conference Has Removed the Video (Title Change-12/9/13) — 538 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I think we’ve just gone from “so spiritually minded, no earthly good” to “…earthly dangerous.”


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    I am deeply disturbed by Piper's sensationalism, and I worry about how young Christians might be affected by it.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    earthly dangerous.

    I am glad that you see this. I could barely sleep last night.


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    @ dee: no wonder! The man should be the subject of an investigation, and I don’t mean journalistic, either…


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    Shaking head . . . Piper would be fit to be tied if a Muslim had done this in front of the White House. Piper may be drawing some soon-to-be-unwanted attention to himself. I’m curious to have TW’s take on this advertisement. Do you think Piper wants to be martyred?


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    Jeebuz! Piper sounds like he want to start another medieval Crusade. Maybe the ‘radical Christians’ can rape, pillage and plunder Constantinople again on the way too. Do any of these clowns know how to get their point across without stupid war rhetoric?


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    @ dee: though to be fair, he is *far* less offensive here than many people who stand in the pulpit week after week spreading misinformation and lies about Islam and all Muslims! It makes me sad and very angry.


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    @ JeffT: hear hear!


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    “Go ye into all the world – and take ’em down!”


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    He makes it sound like cities in Dubai are more steeped in sin than cities in America. I fear his desire to promote the conference has overtaken his desire to present sound biblically based doctrine.


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    Did he just put himself into the crosshairs?


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    John, my brother, I love you, but what the f¥@€ where you thinking?!


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    elastigirl wrote:

    I think we’ve just gone from “so spiritually minded, no earthly good” to “…earthly dangerous.”

    Don’t you know if this sparks an Islam-vs-the-West war, that just means End Time Prophecy is Being Fulfilled?
    “Rejoice for Thy Redemption Draweth Nigh!” (any minute now… any minute now… any minute now…)
    “This World is not my home; I’m just passin’ thru…”


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    Deb wrote:

    I am deeply disturbed by Piper’s sensationalism, and I worry about how young Christians might be affected by it.

    I’m old enough to remember the Gospel According to Hal Lindsay and Christians For Nuclear War back during the late Cold War. Living in the prologue to Late Great Planet Earth and Finding It All Very Exciting. Especially since God would beam us up before anything bad could personally happen to us.


  15. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    One really funny comment being held at this time due to the sensitive nature of this post. But, it was really, really funny.


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    Tim wrote:

    He makes it sound like cities in Dubai are more steeped in sin than cities in America. I fear his desire to promote the conference has overtaken his desire to present sound biblically based doctrine.

    Piper’s statement would have been far more accurate had he said “This city, AND ALL CITIES” are coming down, they are ripe with sin for the judgement of God”. As it stands, he has left himself open to becoming a potentially dangerous sound byte if someone edits the clip to leave off the part where he implies that it is God who will take the city “down”, not Christians.


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    Is Piper's comment off-the-cuff, impromptu? Or is it rehearsed? If it is impromptu then where is the great wisdom and thoughtfulness that Piper gets credited with? And if it was pre-planned then what the heck? Who writes nonsense like this?

    They are so caught up in sounding good about their passions that they don't notice their own stupidity.


  18. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    THE GOSPEL TAKES NO PRISONERS. We are gonna tear down EVERYTHING for the GOOD NEWS. No amount of supposedly-free-will, no thickness of humanistic clout, no breadth of difference in humanity’s search for God, NO IMPULSE OF CULTURAL SENSITIVITY will stop the message from ringing forth and leaving a myriad of enlightened architecture in its wake.

    -Jesus


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    why do these guys smile at this? His smirk reminds me of the CJ Mahaney video with him saying “I’m the worst sinner in the world…”


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    Wise as a serpent he ain’t! Wow, the possible ramifications from his statement!


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    Dee: I think this is their Twitter handle: https://twitter.com/CROSS_con

    I just tagged you and them in a tweet and requesting them to remove the video (linking to this post).


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    Would he have stood in front of SGM Fairfax and said this about it's leaders? I'm pretty sure what happened to those kids rivals (or is possibly far worse) than anything happening in that city…


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    In my previous comment “Paper” should be “Piper”.


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    @ Tim:

            Good point, given that Piper is always going on about the tornados being the Midwest town's fault. How can he justify Dubai being any worse than Moore, Oklahoma? He is so wishy washy in his application of neo-Calvinism. If Dubai is going down, isn't every city? Then why mention Dubai in a way he doesn't mention Minnesota? Where is the video of Piper standing in front of the Empire State Building and telling us New York is going down?


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    What if Piper had a dream that the city was coming down unless it repented and turned to Christ in repentance and faith, and he is standing in the same shoes Jonah did (God’s prophet) when he told Ninevah to repent? I don’t recall reading anything in the biblical record that Jonah said “and all the nations with you” to make them feel less single-out or targeted. He told them God would destroy them, and them alone, for their own wickedness. That probably wouldn’t have made the rest of the world feel too good if they could have youtube-d and watched the announcement.

    The beginning of the video ascribes God with “omnipotence”, not John Piper, nor the rest of those who claim to love Christ. Granted, he doesn’t give a lot of context, so the reader is left to wonder about the details.

    Just my initial thoughts, subject to change at any given moment.

    Someone above referenced Piper as a ‘clown’. I know we have our own unique, individual measuring sticks when it comes to categorizing someone, but I wouldn’t call him a clown (at this point). I think he’s my brother in Christ even though I strongly disagree with him on some major theological issues.

    This forum is a place that has a good amount of truth floating around it (thanks Dee and Deb and those that help), but at the same time it has some very ungracious attitudes that show themselves in the comments (speaking with an eye to myself as well). Yes, I know Jesus didn’t mince words when it came to the Pharisees, but there is a enormous difference between Divine Perfection and the rest of us (in process), when it comes to our ability to *rightly* judge. HE was FULL of grace AND truth. All truth and no (or little) grace is no good.


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    @ Heather: Fixed it.


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    ken wrote:

    The beginning of the video ascribes God with “omnipotence”, not John Piper, nor the rest of those who claim to love Christ. Granted, he doesn’t give a lot of context, so the reader is left to wonder about the details

    You are reading his comment as a well versed person in apocalyptic language. Do you actually thing the world will understand this the way that you do? What about an Arab? Would he nuance the Scriptural references? This statement was poorly thought out. And BTW, it needs editing. In the beginning, he called Dubai the tallest city in the world when he meant to say the tallest tower in the world.

    As for the comments, so many Christian hide from what the world says about them. Deb and I have been called far worse and we let it stand and have even created a list of insults that we have been called. The only ones that we have deleted are serious cuss words and threats. Look at the constant disparagement of us by Seneca.

    I tire of the blogs with everyone pretending that all is wonderful with the post. We know they are deleting the bad comments.

    Also, understand that not everyone who comments here is a Christian.I want this place to be real. I do not judge where people are at since, as you say, we are all in process. But you can bet if someone says it here, others think it.

    I do find it amusing that you would defend Piper from being called names but ignore the names we have been called along with other bloggers who take a contrarian point of view. Now, I really do not want you to defend us. We are quite capable. But isn’t Piper capable of taking it as well, especially since he is a man who would go to his death to defend a woman who is a black belt?


  28. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    @ Julie Anne: I just retweeted your tweet to them.


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    This darned video is still up. I cannot believe it.


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    It’s disturbing that Piper doesn’t have the wisdom to consider how others might interpret his remarks. Or that someone in his entourage didn’t have the wisdom or courage to question whether this would be a good video to make available to the whole world.


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    Why does he always smile when he is saying something horrible? I feel sick watching this.


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    You’ve got to love his “gospel”: “Hey, hey, I’ve got great news for you Muslims in Dubai: God has unconditionally elected to save *some* of you, because God unconditionally loves *some* of you.” This is Calvinism. This sucks.


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    I have just had the awful thought that there are a bunch of CROSS guys on a conference call right now discussing this issue and their response is going to be “We will not be letting a bunch of women tell us what to do! They should have come to us in private. Sic the lawyers on them!”


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    Given their view of God’s “sovereignty,” I doubt seriously they care. They believe that God has decreed all events, including their own actions (which would include our reactions to their actions, if we are to be consistent), so I doubt they’re bothered by any opposition.


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    __

    Wartburg,

    His Excellency Yousef Al Otaiba, Ambassador of the United Arab Emirates to the United States of America,can be contacted, directing correspondence to:

    Contacting the Embassy : (Direct correspondence to:)

    e-mail contact information: (link)

    http://www.uae-embassy.org/contact-embassy

    *

    Embassy of the United Arab Emirates · 3522 International Court, NW · Suite 400 · Washington, DC 20008

    http://www.uae-embassy.org/embassy/ambassador-yousef-al-otaiba


    Notes:
    Contact/information for:
    President Barack Obama
    The White House
    1600 Pennsylvania Ave Nw · Washington · (202) 456-1414
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/submit-questions-and-comments
    http://www.whitehouse.gov
    Customer service (202)-456-1111
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog
    http://www.facebook.com/WhiteHouse
    http://twitter.com/whitehouse
    http://www.youtube.com/whitehouse
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse
    http://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewArtist?id=299652047


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    @ ken:

    “What if Piper had a dream that the city was coming down unless it repented and turned to Christ in repentance and faith, and he is standing in the same shoes Jonah did (God’s prophet) when he told Ninevah to repent? I don’t recall reading anything in the biblical record that Jonah said “and all the nations with you” to make them feel less single-out or targeted.”
    +++++++++++++++++

    so, if Jonah did it, then this is something worth emulating because it’s in the bible, therefore biblical.

    I don’t think so.

    however, regardless of what a person senses, hears, or spiritually sees from God, there is every reason to filter it through one’s own discernment.

    not everything one senses is for sharing.

    not everything one senses is a direct message from God sent to you for a purpose. sometimes it is simply picking up on things (like hearing a cb transmission inadvertently coming over one’s radio), things that don’t concern you at all that are happening or preparing to happen or potentially happening to someone/someplace wholly apart from you. you pick up on it, but it has nothing to do with you.

    sometimes we take ourselves so darn seriously, spiritually & otherwise.

    (do cb’s exist anymore?)


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    One comment unapproved.


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    John Piper's teaching on God's sovereignty is more Islamic than Christian. This is referred to some people as the Islamization of Christianity. Kind of ironic he's doing this in the Middle East. Now all he needs to go is open up a Mosque, segregate genders, require women to wear burkas and also be circumcised! THEN you'd have a Gospel Centered Church…or is it a Gospel Centered Mosque! 😛


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    I agree with Moxie, why is he grinning when he calls judgment down? It was no connection to what he is saying and it’s creepy.

    And how is predestination shown in the story of the rich young man? Piper gives that word to the necessity of salvation, which all Christians believe. His use of it makes no sense to me. It only adds a feeling of exclusiveness in reference to a city that defines “exclusive”. And it has the same hard edge that is also in fundamentalist Islam.

    And why would they want to “flood” Dubai, of all places, that paean to wealth and elitism in a desert built by oil money? I am suspicious of the motives in the same way that I am suspicious when so many US church plants are in wealthier suburbs.


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    Off topic: A part-time producer for Janet Mefford commented at Spiritual Sounding Board:

    “I was a part-time, topic producer for Janet Mefferd until yesterday when I resigned over this situation. All I can share is that there is an evangelical celebrity machine that is more powerful than anyone realizes. You may not go up against the machine. That is all. Mark Driscoll clearly plagiarized and those who could have underscored the seriousness of it and demanded accountability did not. That is the reality of the evangelical industrial complex.”

    http://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2013/12/04/breaking-janet-mefferd-removes-tweets-and-blog-material-regarding-mark-driscoll-and-alleged-plagiarism/#comment-64623


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    7 comments by a threatening and theologically superior commenter deleted.


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    @ Patrice:

    “I was a part-time, topic producer for Janet Mefferd until yesterday when I resigned over this situation. All I can share is that there is an evangelical celebrity machine that is more powerful than anyone realizes. You may not go up against the machine. That is all. Mark Driscoll clearly plagiarized and those who could have underscored the seriousness of it and demanded accountability did not. That is the reality of the evangelical industrial complex.”
    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    well, how feasible would it be to ignore said corrupt evangelical industrial complex and, say, broadcast over the internet / youtube. suggested out of honest curiosity but also mostly ignorance of how these things work. I mean, how much revenue is worth selling your soul to evangelical knuckleheads with power?


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    @ dee:

    I missed them. Couldn’t you put them in the Troll Zoo so we can all have a good laugh?


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    Another comment unapproved due to serious insensitivity.


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    @ elastigirl:
    Yah, I don’t know how it works either. You could go over to SSB and ask her. She’s written a follow-up comment.

    I suppose one would have to admit that the system-as-it-is has become too corrupt to find honest place.

    No good way to make money, either, on the outside. And one does need to eat&such.


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    Sheesh, Dee, have these theologically superior and rude commenters commented because you posted about Piper?


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    dee wrote:

    Another comment unapproved due to serious insensitivity.

    Getting a lot of those lately, are we?

    When the CELEBRITY gets dissed, all the Fanboy Worshippers come out of the woodwork to defend their God.


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    @ Patrice:

    if she could free herself, what a story she would have.


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    @ ken:

    I can see your point, however:

    1. We have no evidence that Piper’s had such a revelation and he never claims that he did.

    2. Piper’s not Jonah or a Biblical prophet. In fact I’m not sure how we’d go about determining if anybody was one of those nowadays.

    3. He may be correct that judgment will come to Dubai (and any city) if it doesn’t repent, but for an American to stand in a city in a Muslim country, point to its tallest building, and say that it’s “coming down” is a pretty clueless thing to do, for obvious reasons.

    4. That being said, I doubt there was any nefarious motive here or that it will actually cause any problems. I suspect Piper was, as usual, oblivious. To those who doubt someone could be that clueless, the pastor of the PCA church I used to attend literally forgot about 9/11 on the 10th anniversary and chose “Day of Judgment! Day of Wonders!” for the opening hymn. DOJDOW is a graphic, pointed hymn about the end of the world (see text here) and a perfectly fine song…but NOT for the 10th anniversary of 9/11. He was patently offensive — I actually cried about it out of anger when I got home even though I have no personal connection to any 9/11 victims at all — but it was nonetheless accidental.


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    William Birch wrote:

    Given their view of God’s “sovereignty,” I doubt seriously they care. They believe that God has decreed all events, including their own actions…

    “IN’SHAL’LAH…”


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    Link screwed up in last comment.


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    Honestly I’m actually more curious why all these neo-Calvinists appear to be suddenly descending on Dubai of all places.


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    Seems to be the latest trend – going to some far-flung country (preferably a Muslim one) and pontificating about bringing the gospel there and being a ‘radical’ Christian.

    Pastor Platt preached from a hidden location somewhere in the Arab Emirates didn’t he, at the risk of persecution if he was found out. Perhaps Pastor Piper thinks he’s even braver by openly condemning Islam in a public place in an Islamic country, and then publishing it all over the internet?


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    @ Patrice: Nope.They are miffed off either about Driscoll (highly likely) or Crossway. You can usually tell this crowd. They are mean, threatening, obnoxious, and absolutely sure that they are Christian and we have never read the Bible. They throw in legal terms for good measure and show a paltry view of the peace of Christ. As soon as they start threatening, however, they are banned which is too bad.

    I would really like to have a conversation with such a person but they can’t get off their threatening horse in order to dialogue. I tried, over the weekend, to communicate with the other person who showed up at the exact same time as this one did. He (or at least he said he was a he) would not dialogue and blew me off. I tried, however.

    With people like this, it is useless. We are dumb, illiterate, unbiblical, do not know the Bible, telling lies on purpose in order to damage someone, sinners who are going to go to hell. You get the picture. When someone gets like that there is no hope of a dialogue. However, they can keep trying and if they calm down, they might be allowed back on. Might…

    Then there are others who just get banned once or twice for extreme insensitivity.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    so, if Jonah did it, then this is something worth emulating because it’s in the bible, therefore biblical.

    Do these guys know Jonah is NOT portrayed as a hero in the original text?

    1) God tells Jonah “Go to Nineveh” (modern Mosul, to the East of Israel).
    2) Jonah takes passage on the first ship to Tarsus (Tartessos near Gibraltar, as far West as you can get?).
    3) God has to send a storm, then some sort of sea monster to EAT Jonah and spit him out on the riverfront at Nineveh.
    4) Jonah bitches and moans and does the bare minimum of what God wanted done.
    5) It works anyway.
    6) Jonah gets mad at God, goes off alone, and sits down to sulk.
    7) God catches up and asks Jonah a question. There the story ends.
    8) We are never told Jonah’s answer. We have to answer the question ourselves.


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    @ May: He, too, was in Dubai. Dubai must be the latest place for missions. Probably because it is an open country with benevolent leaders and very, very wealthy which is important for church planters who need lots of money.


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    Nelson Mandela has passed away 🙁


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    Hester wrote:

    Honestly I’m actually more curious why all these neo-Calvinists appear to be suddenly descending on Dubai of all places.

    Fairly safe for rich Christians as Islamic nations go, and FOLLOW THE MONEY.


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    Patrice wrote:

    And how is predestination shown in the story of the rich young man? Piper gives that word to the necessity of salvation, which all Christians believe. His use of it makes no sense to me. It only adds a feeling of exclusiveness in reference to a city that defines “exclusive”. And it has the same hard edge that is also in fundamentalist Islam.

    Both Calvin and Mohammed were VERY into Predestination. I would expect their theologies to have some similarities. Including similar side effects.


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    dee wrote:

    We are dumb, illiterate, unbiblical, do not know the Bible, telling lies on purpose in order to damage someone, sinners who are going to go to hell.

    Don’t forget feeeemale. I suspect the venom flows freer because in this situation, all the instigators have been women. 🙂


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    elastigirl wrote:

    if she could free herself, what a story she would have.

    Wouldn’t that be excellent!! But I feel that way about many stories I’ve heard over the last 6 months here and elsewhere. Imagine if we all got together and wrote a book about the state of Evangelical Christianity as analyzed from the broken pew.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Both Calvin and Mohammed were VERY into Predestination. I would expect their theologies to have some similarities. Including similar side effects

    So perhaps they are attracted to both the oil money and the similarity of mindset. Blech


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    @ Bridget:
    Wise words
    “The greatest glory in living
    lies not in never falling,
    but in rising every time we fall.”

    ― Nelson Mandela
    Rest in peace, Madiba.


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    Mullah Piper. Not long ago he was the new global John Calvin filming from Geneva


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    Precious Mandela!!!!


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    May wrote:

    Seems to be the latest trend – going to some far-flung country (preferably a Muslim one) and pontificating about bringing the gospel there and being a ‘radical’ Christian. Pastor Platt preached from a hidden location somewhere in the Arab Emirates didn’t he, at the risk of persecution if he was found out. Perhaps Pastor Piper thinks he’s even braver by openly condemning Islam in a public place in an Islamic country, and then publishing it all over the internet?

    Great comment! It is absolutely absurd.


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    Dee and Deb,

    I didn't know where else to put this, but I have a suggestion. Could you do a post on the alleged plagiarization of Driscoll? To protect yourself legally, don't accuse him of anything. Just put up language sample A, and compare it with language sample B. Keep the samples to one or two sentences each (not 14 pages). You can do this under the "fair use" clause of copyright law. Then ask your readers what their opinion is. Your job is not at stake the way Mefferd's was. And if you're worried about legal action against you, I hereby pledge $500 from my own pocket towards any legal fees, if needed.


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       This is very odd. I was just posting a comment over on Spiritual Sounding board in the Mefferd thread, and it went "poof." Now the blog post has vanished. Was Julie threatened also?


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    @ Patrice:
    Now Julie Anne’s post and tweets on this are disappearing!!
    Are the “Christian” bullies at it again?


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    Platt and Piper are perfectly safe in Dubai, which is why they went there. Also, it is essentially a first-world city and one of the wealthiest in the world.


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    @ dee:

    Got tied up with a couple customers, Dee. Wasn’t intending on skipping out that long. I’m very glad you post the majority of people’s comments and show the real world, but it wasn’t really what I was getting at.

    Maybe this would help explain my concern: there is a difference between a genuine comradery that develops when people are drawn to this site because of their painful/wrongful experience with authoritarian leadership in the church (I commend you guys for this) and comradery that results from being analytical and critical (not so good, imo). The latter is my concern in that it produces extremely fertile soil for the seeds of self-righteous banter to take root. I’ve seen it in my own life when I started seeing and identifying the huge problems in “church” as I knew it years ago. I’m still guilty of it at times and need to repent of it. I am no better than they are, will always have error in my thinking regarding Christ and His Kingdom, and am in desperate/continual need of the grace of God in all areas of my life…especially my attitude towards others with whom I disagree.

    So, yes, I realize not everyone who comments is professing to love Christ here, but among those (a rather large group) that have claimed to love Christ there seems to be much joy and satisfaction in finding fault. Just my humble opinion, but it seems your comments frequently incite that aspect of response, rather than curb it with a graceful reminder.

    What do you think – does that make any sense? I know there is a fine line here, and am not sure I have the ability to articulate it. Thanks for your patience with me!


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    Leila wrote:

    This is very odd. I was just posting a comment over on Spiritual Sounding board in the Mefferd thread, and it went “poof.” Now the blog post has vanished. Was Julie threatened also?

    Same here. What the heck?


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    I haven’t been able to get a comment to stick at SSB from my work address for a couple of days. Everything accepts, I hit “Submit”, and NOTHING.

    This only happens when posting from my work addy. My home addy works just fine.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    Yes, post and comments from right side feeder, too. Gosh, I hope not!


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    dee wrote:

    7 comments by a threatening and theologically superior commenter deleted.

    Well that obviously wasn’t me. – dryly


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    Hester wrote:

    Honestly I’m actually more curious why all these neo-Calvinists appear to be suddenly descending on Dubai of all places.

    Reminds me of Caroline Aherne’s famous interview (in the character of “Mrs Merton”) with Debbie Magee, when she asked: So, what was it that attracted you to millionaire Paul Daniels?


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    Leila wrote:

    Just put up language sample A, and compare it with language sample B.

    I’d YouTube the scanned book pages in question, being mindful to stay within Copyright Law if that’s possible, with the tune playing in the background from Furtick’s ‘Hey Haters’ spoof (Max Hollidays Birdcage Theatre?)


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    dee wrote:

    7 comments by a threatening and theologically superior commenter deleted.

    And, on reflection, I’m theologically superior. (I must be, since unlike any Christian before me, I worked out by God’s grace that my doctrine should be based on the Biblescriptures.) Why aren’t my comments deleted?

    Oh… I suppose I’ve never threatened anyone.


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    To Our Readers Regarding Spiritual Sounding Board and Julie Anne Smith:

    She is fine. Something has come up and she is protecting some folks although she does not have to do this. It has nothing to do with her.

    She and I spoke about 25 minutes ago and I knew this was going to happen. I agree with what she is doing.

    You probably will have some idea what this is about when her post comes back up but we are asking everyone to not make any guesses in the comment thread since some folks, not associated with the blog, are under terrific pressure. You may notice one or two small things that will go missing here as well.

    Again, it is not due to threats but to protect some folks. Dang-this sounds so hush hush. Please know it is only to protect some innocent folks. I promise. This last week has been pressure packed and some in the evangelical community have some repenting to do.


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    @ Janey: It will be back shortly. Read the above explanation.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I’m theologically superior

    You are not theological superior. That’s thinking too small. You are a theological giant!


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    Thanks, Dee.

    In the meantime, people can read the Storify link on Janet Mefferd, Mark Driscoll, and the 3 allegations of plagiarizing. I don’t think it has anything that hasn’t already public for a while. But feel free to delete this, Dee.

    http://storify.com/DefendTheSheep/janet-mefferd-removes-blog-posts-and-tweets-relate?utm_campaign=&utm_content=storify-pingback&utm_source=spiritualsoundingboard.com&utm_medium=sfy.co-twitter&awesm=sfy.co_tKIB


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    @ Janey: I do not need to delete this. Its OK. You guys are smart and will probably figure it out. If anything happens in regards to these folks, we will report it and all of you will understand and also be mad.


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    dee wrote:

    To Our Readers Regarding Spiritual Sounding Board and Julie Anne Smith: She is fine. Something has come up and she is protecting some folks although she does not have to do this. It has nothing to do with her. She and I spoke about 25 minutes ago and I knew this was going to happen. I agree with what she is doing. You probably will have some idea what this is about when her post comes back up but we are asking everyone to not make any guesses since some folks, not associated with the blog, are under terrific pressure. You may notice one or two small things that will go missing here as well. Again, it is not due to threats but to protect some folks. Dang-this sounds so hush hush. Please know it is only to protect some innocent folks. I promise. This last week has been pressure packed and some in the evangelical community have some repenting to do.

    I do think it’s it’s time to get some national media attention to plagiarism cover-up scandal.


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    dee wrote:

    also be mad.

    Already there.


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    @ dee:

    “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God” (1 Pet. 4:17).


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:You have no idea. For the shills of some well-known leaders who read this blog-tell your bosses to REPENT!


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    @ William Birch:
    “Darn straight” which is my version of “Amen.”


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    Anybody else thankful for this clause in the Constitution?

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion


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    Hmmm. The conference is in Louisville, Kentucky near the end of this month. Most of the big names are lined up – but not Mahaney. It’s taking place at some convention center.

    I agree with a lot of what has been said here about Piper, but, taking him out of the equation for a moment – At what point do we stop being afraid of offending Muslims? Must videos be taken down because someone in it speaks harshly about Islam? What does that say about us or about any non-Islamic country?

    Yes, I know it’s easy for me to talk like this, because I’m probably not in any immediate danger of reprisal. But if the price of no further lives being lost is the abrogation of free speech where Islam is concerned, isn’t the price too high?

    Yeah, Piper is continuing on the path of foolishness he’s been on for some time. (I agree with what he broadly says about Christianity and Islam, but his bravado and self-aggrandizement are foolish.) But free speech allows even foolishness – up to a point. Maybe I’m naive, but I doubt that even a militant Muslim would think that this aging preacher is threatening military action.


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    @ Eagle: I hesitate to say this, but will anyway – please don’t lump all Muslims together. Muslim belief and practice is incredibly diverse – much like xtianity.

    also, orthodox Jews have separate section for men and women in their synagogues… and even today, some of the German Anabaptist churches in the US have men and women sit separately during services – it’s not optional. there are also plenty of diverse Protestant groups here that have historically had stringent rules about what women can and cannot wear. (also true of ultra-orthodox Jews, for the most part.) these groups generally have rules about men’s’ clothing as well.

    as for FGM, that is ALL cultural and -sadly – is practiced by xtians as well, in both the Middle East and in parts of Africa.


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    @ Eagle: fwiw, there is *nothing* in the Quran that relates to FGM, even though some Muslims claim it’s mandated. same for clothing: both men and women are commanded to dress modestly. the extreme versions of this (chadors, burqas) are of entirely human origin.


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    @ Hester: because it’s lucrative for them, obviously!


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    The Mark Driscoll writings that (allegedly, for the attorneys) contain plagiarized material are:

    A Call to Resurgence – published by Tyndale
    Trial: 8 Witness from 1 & 2 Peter – Published by Mars Hill

    Less obvious, but still problematic are —

    Real Marriage – Published by Thomas Nelson
    Death by Love – Published by Crossway
    Who Do You Think You Are? – Published by Thomas Nelson

    Just in case the blog posts that pointed these out suddenly disappear, here are screen captures. (Everyone needs to get Evernote and Evernote Clipper, they are FREE).

    https://www.evernote.com/shard/s302/sh/de64859c-ec54-492b-82a2-9ddb72057c6b/4711549251cc9c9234c968b040c88413

    https://www.evernote.com/shard/s302/sh/15012545-4a91-4cdd-9157-df720e9dd948/b99554ba19299f1ceb6be3ce1ae89ff8


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    @ Tim: Thank you. I have retweeted your “on the mark” tweets. I am so mad i could spit right now.


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    @ JeffT:
    Darn straight!


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    By the way, one of the PDF files with the evidence about MD’s plagiarism taken down from Janet Mefferd’s website can still be downloaded from Archive.org.

    Visit the following link to get the evidence about “A call to resurgence” and a section of “Trial”: https://web.archive.org/web/20131203032816/http://www.janetmefferd.com/wp-content/uploads/MATERIAL-SCREENSHOTS-HERE.pdf

    I used the information in the first Evernote link presented by Janey.


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    @ Martos:
    Way to go, Martos!


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    We are bearing witness to the blasphemous Gospel of Oppression being unleashed on the wider world


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    numo wrote:

    @ Eagle: fwiw, there is *nothing* in the Quran that relates to FGM, even though some Muslims claim it’s mandated. same for clothing: both men and women are commanded to dress modestly. the extreme versions of this (chadors, burqas) are of entirely human origin.

    “Modestly” as in under California beachwear standards the Muslim woman wears a one-piece swimsuit at the beach instead of a string bikini?

    And I remember somewhere on the Web a teenage Muslim girl in the US saying she only veiled up in the hijab headscarf in mosque or when the Imam came by on a “pastoral visit”; the first as being in a holy place, the second out of respect for the Imam’s office.

    If Islam has any hope of reconciling itself to today’s world and joining the 21st Century, it’ll come from American Muslims.


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    Update
    We tried to protect some folks. It looks like the cat may be out of the bag. If it is, we will explain it in the morning.


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    Thanks, Dee. Jesus made it clear, didn’t he? @ dee:


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy: I think you misunderstood me – also that you assume that Muslim women are not interested in fashion, makeup, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth! There are tons of Arabic-language fashion mags; I think we’ve been given a very distorted picture of Islam and further, one that’s focused solely on extremism and its adherents.

    I’ve spent a fair amount of time with women and girls from the ME and N. Africa… you should see their wardrobes! Even those who are very conservative are quite stylish.


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    dee wrote:

    To Our Readers Regarding Spiritual Sounding Board and Julie Anne Smith:
    She is fine. Something has come up and she is protecting some folks although she does not have to do this. It has nothing to do with her.

    Is this anything like a journalist protecting her sources?


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy: you’ll have noticed that traditional men’s clothing from many Muslim-majority countries covers the entire body, face and hands excepted, yes? And a lot of those men always wear hats or skullcaps, much like some orthodox Jewish man, with their black suits and fedoras…


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    numo wrote:

    I’ve spent a fair amount of time with women and girls from the ME and N. Africa… you should see their wardrobes! Even those who are very conservative are quite stylish.

    I agree with this. I know two Muslim ladies at my University who came from Saudi Arabia to do a PhD and who dress very nicely. I don’t know if they dress the same way back home, but over here they have their own individual style while maintaining and respecting certain things like wearing the scarf.


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    @ Martos: probably yes, though indoors. Women fro SA, veil and wear long dresses in public, but not otherwise. I have known some lovelynSaudi women – not rich by any means, but still style-conscious and possessed of very good taste in clothing.


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    dee wrote:

    To Our Readers Regarding Spiritual Sounding Board and Julie Anne Smith:
    She is fine. Something has come up and she is protecting some folks although she does not have to do this. It has nothing to do with her.
    She and I spoke about 25 minutes ago and I knew this was going to happen. I agree with what she is doing.
    You probably will have some idea what this is about when her post comes back up but we are asking everyone to not make any guesses in the comment thread since some folks, not associated with the blog, are under terrific pressure. You may notice one or two small things that will go missing here as well.
    Again, it is not due to threats but to protect some folks. Dang-this sounds so hush hush. Please know it is only to protect some innocent folks. I promise. This last week has been pressure packed and some in the evangelical community have some repenting to do.

    I will be interested in seeing that post when it comes back up.


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    Tina wrote:

    I will be interested in seeing that post when it comes back up.

    Hi Tina,

    The post is live again and here is the announcement i posted:

    Announcement:

    Although you all know me as a ranting redhead and I’m not afraid to go after spiritual bullies, this blog’s first purpose is defending and protecting. It is in light of the blog’s first goal, that I needed to remove some comments, tweets, and related responses. This is unprecedented for me and was a difficult decision to make.

    I am unable to discuss this any further and will be moderating carefully to remove related comments. I am absolutely fine. Thanks for the e-mails checking on me. 🙂


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    Tina I removed your initial comment. You did nothing wrong. This is part of the deal I spoke of earlier. It is to protect some folks.


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    Patrice

    I had to remove one comment. You did nothing wrong. We are trying to protect some folks.


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    dee wrote:

    Tina I removed your initial comment. You did nothing wrong. This is part of the deal I spoke of earlier. It is to protect some folks.

    Oops! Sorry about that. Thanks for removing it.


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    I really dig the Witches of Wartburg and may their tribe increase! Not since the Gutenberg movable type press and the Venetian booksellers has Christendom been shaken up as much. The internet is making it harder and harder for the old guard to hold onto power.


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    @ dee:

    I thought we lived in a country with freedom of speech? I didn’t see any names mentioned at other places . . . feels like I’m in East Germany during the Cold War.


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    Bridget wrote:

    @ dee:
    I thought we lived in a country with freedom of speech? I didn’t see any names mentioned at other places . . . feels like I’m in East Germany during the Cold War.

    This may be a case where the responsibility to not exercise free speech outweighs the right to exercise it.


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    @ Muff Potter: Like, no LOVE IT!


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    @ Julie Anne:

    I’ve been refreshing your site for two hours!!! 🙂 Glad to know you’re doing well, and eager to read your next post!


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    @ Tina:
    I get that, and my little rant isn’t against Deeb or Julie Anne. But somewhere mixed in the issue is ‘fear’ and that is exactly what I have an issue with . . . that truth can’t be revealed without possible retribution from those who wield power$$$$.


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    ken wrote:

    @ dee:

    Got tied up with a couple customers, Dee. Wasn’t intending on skipping out that long. I’m very glad you post the majority of people’s comments and show the real world, but it wasn’t really what I was getting at.

    Maybe this would help explain my concern: there is a difference between a genuine comradery that develops when people are drawn to this site because of their painful/wrongful experience with authoritarian leadership in the church (I commend you guys for this) and comradery that results from being analytical and critical (not so good, imo). The latter is my concern in that it produces extremely fertile soil for the seeds of self-righteous banter to take root. I’ve seen it in my own life when I started seeing and identifying the huge problems in “church” as I knew it years ago. I’m still guilty of it at times and need to repent of it. I am no better than they are, will always have error in my thinking regarding Christ and His Kingdom, and am in desperate/continual need of the grace of God in all areas of my life…especially my attitude towards others with whom I disagree.

    So, yes, I realize not everyone who comments is professing to love Christ here, but among those (a rather large group) that have claimed to love Christ there seems to be much joy and satisfaction in finding fault. Just my humble opinion, but it seems your comments frequently incite that aspect of response, rather than curb it with a graceful reminder.

    What do you think – does that make any sense? I know there is a fine line here, and am not sure I have the ability to articulate it. Thanks for your patience with me!

    Dee and Deb,

    The above comment by Ken (whom I do not know) is worthy of our serious contemplation. The spirit in which he writes gives evidence of the Spirit possibly speaking through him. Nobody has commented on his comment, so I thought I’d highlight it lest it be missed. What he’s written, in my estimation, is very profound.

    Now to a couple of other issues at hand. It should be obvious to everyone what happened to Mefferd. When someone’s livelihood is at stake, one’s silence is understandable. However, in the end, truth will always win. I think everyone needs to take a deep breath and reflect on the truth that in the age of the Internet, stunning silence speaks ten times louder than ten thousand blogs. It has the REVERSE effect intended. So, hang on – its only beginning.

    Second, to the two of you (Dee and Deb) – your labor of love in running a blog that has hundreds and thousands of daily readers is amazing. Don’t get discouraged. It’s difficult to walk the line between truth and love. I see you doing it well. Continue – loving people where they are, including those who disagree with you theologically, and you will continue to make an impact with your truth writing.

    Praying for you guys and Rachelle and I love you both!

    Wade


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    I am seriously dumbfounded. What other people approved that message? He obviously didn’t create it by himself, but of all the DUMB THINGS he could say that has to have been one of the dumbest. Will someone please force this man to quietly go away into retirement so we never have to listen to him again or see any of his ridiculous tweets?


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    As far as Mefferd goes, please listen to the Dec 5 episode of Fighting for the Faith “This was not a boating accident” to hear Chris Rosebrough’s analysis. He has experience dealing with radio shows that mysteriously disappear because of things they have said for which they refuse to recant. (Not saying that’s what happened here for sure but it seems highly likely). It’s time for real Christians to Exodus the evangelical machine. It is plain that all it is interested in is money and buffoonery and chewing up and spitting out and trampling anyone who gets in the way of that goal.


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    ken wrote:

    @ dee
    So, yes, I realize not everyone who comments is professing to love Christ here, but among those (a rather large group) that have claimed to love Christ there seems to be much joy and satisfaction in finding fault. Just my humble opinion, but it seems your comments frequently incite that aspect of response, rather than curb it with a graceful reminder.

    Ken,I guess I see it differently. I don’t think most of us get joy or satisfaction in finding fault. Instead, I see people pointing out those who abuse others under the guise of ‘Christianity’ and are looking for justice. If we sometimes do it with humor, sometimes it’s to point out that the emperor has no clothes, other times it’s the only way to turn away the anger at the damage done to others in the name of God. Just my $.02


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    @ JeffT: Sometimes it really is laughing to keep from crying, although tone is *such* a difficult thing in text-only communication… it’s easy to read something meant as deadpan/dry as completely serious, and vice versa.


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    @ Wade Burleson:

    Wade,
    In theory Ken’s exhortation is noteworthy. I can’t speak for anyone else but if you had wrote it I know that I could have a respectful debate with you about the reminder to check our hearts for any satisfaction that a brother or sister has erred. After following a recent TWW post where many of us debated with Ken I learned that I really do not want to tangle with him.
    So, as far as his post you referred to I do agree about the judging of the judgers so to speak. I even remember one Sunday while I was worshipping an we had pastors who didn’t think we were expressive enough or whatever it was that they wanted to see us hyped up and they were getting pretty ‘judgy’ and angry. I became angry and disturbed. God spoke to me. He said that I was doing the same thing they were. Huh? I was judging them for judging me, just let it go.
    Now, as far as anyone here feeling satisfaction or happiness about learning of religious leaders faults. I really don’t sense that here.
    What I sense is more of something like this. For years I had such cognitive dissonance about my husbands so much love for me that he never did or never would hurt me by having affairs. When I found out that he actually had had affairs. At some point in my grief, anger and hurt I shouted, “I knew it, I knew it, I knew it all along.” And there were sounds of satisfaction from me. Not because I was actually satisfied or happy that he had wronged me and other women so bad. Of course I had hoped it was never true. If someone had actually suggested that I sounded happy about the news.. I mean I can’t even finish that sentence!
    And I can comment to you because even if you don’t agree with me I know that you will respect me for having thought through my views and not dismiss them as evil or from the devil as Ken dismissed many of our views.


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    @ Patti:

    I’m not sure if this is the same Ken. I’ve been a bit confused about the flag/no flag Ken.


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    For what it’s worth, a friend of mine posted a link on Facebook quoting Paris Hilton, who has proclaimed Dubai “the new Hawaii.”

    Maybe Piper is just really hip?


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    Bridget wrote:

    @ Patti:

    I’m not sure if this is the same Ken. I’ve been a bit confused about the flag/no flag Ken.

    Patti,

    I agree with Bridget. I can’t recall reading anything from the “other” Ken (flag Ken?), but it would be hard for me to see how this Ken (no flag Ken?) would be someone with whom we could not have a hearty, respectful dialogue, discussion, and possibly even disagreement. I’m not saying everything Ken says needs to be agree upon (JeffT is an example of respectful disagreement), but I am saying I see validity in his point about being careful how we disagree and with what we disagree. Some disagreements should draw us closer in bonds of love, while others deserve a hard line in the sand (abuse, authoritarianism, etc…).

    Thanks for commenting and discussing!


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    @ Wade Burleson:
    @ Patti:

    ‘ken’ on this thread as opposed to ‘Ken (German flag)’ on another thread where the the discussion has been centering around complementarianism and feminism 😉

    ‘ken’ will need to set us all straight, but I sense they are different persons.


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    William Birch wrote:

    @ Julie Anne:
    I’ve been refreshing your site for two hours!!! Glad to know you’re doing well, and eager to read your next post!

    Thank you, William. Wow, what a day – I”m pooped!


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      __

    Wishing: “A Proverbial Rough Horse, A Cactus Saddle, And Long Journey, Perhaps?”

    hmmm…

    Wade,

    Judgmental?

     Silence? 

    huh?

    come ta think of it…we all have had a belly full of both.

    What?

    ..remember SGM/AoR? 

    Krunch! 

    …how soon Kind Folk forget, huh?

    (you gotz tumbleweeds on da proverbial brainy-brain?)

    (twister, got your tong?)

    (a long steer into a bum steer, perhaps?)

    [respectfully]

    …we are way past midnight on dis here stuff.

    to the moon, Alice?

    curious and curiouser…

    “How-do-you-do-and-shake-hands?”

    quack-quack!

    I think not.

    da religious victims are piling up, bro…

    Gas peddle is on da right.

    -snicker-

    Shake, rattle and make dough,
    Shake, rattle and make dough,
    Shake, rattle and make dough,
    Well, these dang Calvinesta preachers won’t do right,
    To save theyz doggone souls… *

    Alright?

    (sadface)

    Sopy
    ___
    * Ironic-bleed-through(R): Big Joe Turner:  ‘Shake Rattle and Roll’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMBZHUhBAYU
    Bonus: (R) Jeff Beck, Brian Setzer, Darrel Higham ‘Shake Rattle & Roll’
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN3MkPPegac
    Intermission: John Wayne –  “Two-Fisted Law?” (c.1932)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48di9o_tx1c

    ;~)


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    @ Hester:
    Because they are too sexist and fatalistic for North American audiences?


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    dee wrote:

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:
    I’m theologically superior
    You are not theological superior. That’s thinking too small. You are a theological giant!

    Dee – don’t encourage him!

    Yours in Christ,
    Nick’s responsible alter-ego


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    Bridget wrote:

    ‘ken’ on this thread as opposed to ‘Ken (German flag)’ on another thread where the the discussion has been centering around complementarianism and feminism
    ‘ken’ will need to set us all straight, but I sense they are different persons.

    There is at least some circumstantial linguistic evidence that they are different people. Flag Ken is based in Germany (hence his flag) but is English. Permit me to draw your attention to the following phrase used by No Flag Ken above:

    Got tied up with a couple customers

    In UK English this would have been “a couple of customers”. Although American English does cross the pond, this one is very rarely heard over here.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck: while I’m sure this guy isn’t German Men, we say “a couple *of*,” too. Omitting “of” isn’t standard usage, even though a lot of us say it. iirc, it’s more prevalent in some regions, though I’m blanking on locales…


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    @ numo: err, German Men.


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    @ numo: kenneth – stupid autocorrect!


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    Heather wrote:

    In my previous comment “Paper” should be “Piper”.

    I think I’ll step out and pick up the morning piper off the porch.


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    Hester wrote:

    Link screwed up in last comment.

    Fixed it. 🙂


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    dee wrote:

    @ May: He, too, was in Dubai. Dubai must be the latest place for missions. Probably because it is an open country with benevolent leaders and very, very wealthy which is important for church planters who need lots of money.

    BINGO!


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    @ Wade Burleson:

    Thanks for your kind words and encouragement. It means so much!


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    If a widely known radical Muslim imam (comparable to Piper in Christianity), had stood outside a major Western city and said the equivalent things, he would be targeted for arrest and incarceration or droning, because it would be seen as a terroristic threat likely to be carried out by extremist elements. Piper is behaving the fool and it may have unintended consequences.


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    Patti wrote:

    After following a recent TWW post where many of us debated with Ken I learned that I really do not want to tangle with him.

    I’m all ears if you care to expound. Was I disrespectful? If so, in what way? You mentioned that I ‘dismissed’ views. Again, did I do it with disrespect? Thanks!


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    Bridget wrote:

    @ Patti:
    I’m not sure if this is the same Ken. I’ve been a bit confused about the flag/no flag Ken.

    I’m the ‘no flag’ ken.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    In UK English this would have been “a couple of customers”. Although American English does cross the pond, this one is very rarely heard over here.

    I’m impressed! 🙂


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    @ Moxie:
    “That tower and this city are coming down. This city is rife with sin for the judgment of God..” Piper says in a triumphant tone, smiling.

    Does Piper realize what he’s doing? I’d say every word was scripted and rehearsed. Did he think it would cause controversy? As they say in Minnesota, “You betcha.”

    Piper wants to become a target, that’s my opinion. But how much courage dies it take for a guy to stand safely in a big open space away from the hustle & bustle of city life and shoot a video in which he says something people will find controversial? Then, if he receives negative attention, what’s he going to do? Act like he’s being persecuted for his faith? And if someone threatens his life, you know he’s going to use that to validate his ministry and use it to ask for more support as The Apostle to the World.

    If he had any real guts he’d take his muscular gospel right down into the streets of Dubai and loudly proclaim, “This city and this tower are coming down!!” Unless he doesn’t really believe that’s true. Unless he’s just saying that to get attention like a drama queen. Unless he’s saying that to sell something other than the gospel; something, for instance, like his conference because he needs the money.

    Weak!!


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    JeffT wrote:

    ken wrote:
    @ dee
    So, yes, I realize not everyone who comments is professing to love Christ here, but among those (a rather large group) that have claimed to love Christ there seems to be much joy and satisfaction in finding fault. Just my humble opinion, but it seems your comments frequently incite that aspect of response, rather than curb it with a graceful reminder.
    Ken,I guess I see it differently. I don’t think most of us get joy or satisfaction in finding fault. Instead, I see people pointing out those who abuse others under the guise of ‘Christianity’ and are looking for justice. If we sometimes do it with humor, sometimes it’s to point out that the emperor has no clothes, other times it’s the only way to turn away the anger at the damage done to others in the name of God. Just my $.02

    Thanks for the feedback. I understand your point about humor as everyone in my family loves it and uses it frequently. The problem is when one of us (usually the kids, though I have been guilty) use humor and a jovial/joking comment (usually about something negative) to cover up an air of criticism that really is subtly designed to distance the commenter from the person being spoken about which results in an attitude of self-righteousness that the commmenter isn’t really aware (or is willing to admit) exists.

    We’ve been reminding each other is that we all are in the same boat and desperately need grace and respect from each other, no matter how foolish one’s actions may seem. My wife and I can’t expect the kids to initiate these reminders, so we take the responsibility on ourselves. If I were to start a blog like TWW that is desinged to be analytical and critical (a dangerous undertaking in one sense), then I would think I would be duly responsible to maintain the spirit of grace so that self-righteous flavors are constantly being stifled and held at bay.

    Gal.5:15 But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! … But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another.


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    Evie wrote:

    “That tower and this city are coming down. This city is rife with sin for the judgment of God..” Piper says in a triumphant tone, smiling.

    Maybe the tower was added post-production and he was actually standing in Seattle.


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    I found this post by Piper on the Crosscon website, and it may explain some of what Piper was trying to say. Really short, mostly focusing on the phrase, “The gospel of the kingdom WILL be preached tbroughout the whole world…”. So because the spread of the gospel is inevitable, that city and all cities are “coming down.”. Makes more sense that way.

    The original article appeared in Nov 1983 (30 years ago – Wow, I was in high school.), and the concept might have become a key element of how Piper views missions. When you really learn something, and it becomes part of how you view the world, it’s hard to imagine not knowing it. Harder still to remember that not everyone knows this same ‘truth.’. My guess is that this is why Piper skips over that part.

    The irony is that even the people who study that verse often disagree with Piper’s interpretation. Hard to imagine that with all that education, Piper doesn’t acknowledge this.

    http://crosscon.com/2013/11/then-the-end-will-come/


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    Darn. I can’t watch the video because our office blocks it.

    But I have to ask this question. Please do not take offense by my asking it. There is a good question that this will come up at a party that I am attending tonight, and I want to be ready.

    Jesus said about Jerusalem that the Temple will be destroyed and that Jerusalem will be destroyed and that not one stone will be left upon another. Jesus was criticized for this by devout Jews at the time.

    Is Piper’s intent to say the same thing? Does he say God wlll destroy this city, or does he say Christians or the USA is going to destroy this city?

    Muslims are super sensitive types (e.g. the cartoon fiasco), so we shouldn’t be driven by a fear of what “they” might think.

    But if what we say is confused and people hear something other than what we say, that is bad.

    A transcript would be really helpful, and I would have a more definitive feeling. Without that, I am only speaking in general terms.

    Look foward to some help from you guys.

    Thanks.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    That’s it. Photoshopped it in 😛
    He calls for Christians to flood the city and start preaching the gospel in the streets in order to save it from imminent destruction.

    More and more he’s acting like the Pied Piper who led all the children of Hamelin away to their death. Piper wants God’s children to follow him to their death.

    I think we’ll be seeing more and more of this kind of thing from Piper the older he gets. To me he seems fixated on his death, and expects his death to be the ultimate expression of his lifetime of service, and hopefully it could be on a similar level of the deaths of the Apostles & Jesus.

    Can’t force that John, sorry. And naming your conference “Cross” doesn’t cut it either.


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    @ dee:
    Dee, thank you. To read those right now will make me cry.


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    @ Anonymous:
    I think he’s saying it will be destroyed similar to the warning issued to the city of Nineveh which was spared due to God’s intervention through Jonah.

    Perhaps Piper was attempting to assume the role of Jonah, issuing a warning to Dubai, saying it would be destroyed unless it repented.

    Now he’s both a Global Apostle and Old Testament prophet!! Give that man a brown gown and a rope belt somebody!! And a plate of locusts and honey to snack on!


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    Evie:

    If your quote from Nick is what he said – Christians flood the city and preach the Gospel to save the city from destruction, that’s not even right theologically.

    All cities are going to come to destruction, regardless of how much of the Gospel is preached in those cities. That will happen, as they are temporal.

    If he is claiming some special judgment is coming to Dubai because of its lack of the Gospel, then he is saying something that he cannot possibly know. Jonah said it about Nineveh, but that’s because God told Jonah.

    If Piper is claiming God told him that, he has bigger issues to deal with than insensitivity.


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    Also, that is a beautiful tower. I hate to think about that being destroyed.

    Detroit has some ugly towers. Let’s start there.


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    @ Anonymous:
    Exactly. He speaks authoritatively and matter of fact you but one important element is missing: He’s not speaking for God.

    Which is pretty serious.

    Because he’s not speaking the truth.

    And why should anyone follow his message if he says things like this?

    “Come on, babe
    Follow me
    Come on, babe
    Trust in me
    Come on, babe
    Can’t you see
    Come on, babe
    Follow me
    I’m the Pied Piper”


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    @ Anonymous:
    God told Abraham that his descendants would be like the stars in the sky and the sand on the seashore. Jesus said that he didn’t come to destroy the world but that the world, through him, might be saved.

    Where is the amazing hope of the gospel within Piper’s proclamation that Dubai will be destroyed? How presumptuous of him to say such a thing.


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    @ Wade Burleson:

    ken: “there seems to be much joy and satisfaction in finding fault. Just my humble opinion, but it seems your comments frequently incite that aspect of response, rather than curb it with a graceful reminder…I know there is a fine line here…”
    ++++++++++++++++++

    Wade and Ken,

    as I see it, what is happening is a collective sigh.

    very long overdue

    While God, Jesus, and Holy Spirit are the bees knees where life in all its fullness and free indeed are concerned, church and Christian culture are oppressive. in a totalitarian sense. usually with a kind smile. as good-hearted and fair-minded as you are, wade, it exists even in your church, too.

    I agree, ken, that there is a fine line. but really — there is some liberation going on here, of people, of pain, of having been muzzled, of principles, of what is fair & right & just. there will be a collective expression of “finally. at last.” the dawn of a new day prompts celebration as well as highlighting the grotesque & twisted contortions that were and still are.

    be careful here.


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    @ ken:

    ken, I am so sorry about that. Thank you Bridget and Wade for correcting me. Yes, I do believe that we can have a healthy discussion with ken.


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    Moxie said: ‘ how much courage dies it take for a guy to stand safely in a big open space away from the hustle & bustle of city life and shoot a video in which he says something people will find controversial? Then, if he receives negative attention, what’s he going to do? Act like he’s being persecuted for his faith? ‘

    Sadly, I’m inclined to agree with this.

    RE what Ken and Wade have said about the danger of lapsing into criticism for criticism’s sake, I have to say I’m guilty of this sometimes.

    I love TWW and it has been very helpful to me personally, but sometimes on threads when nearly everyone is in agreement, I think posters don’t bother to moderate their language or try to respectfully engage with those who disagree. I’m sure Dee and Deb only delete posters when absolutely necessary, but sometimes I think it would be healthier for us all to have more dissenters on here. It keeps us all sharper.


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    numo wrote:

    we say “a couple *of*,” too

    Hmm… I didn’t know that. To nitpick, my point still stands, since naebdy says it over here (and only folk fae certain parts ae Scotland call emdy “naebdy”), but thanks for broadening my horizon!


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    numo wrote:
    we say “a couple *of*,” too
    Hmm… I didn’t know that. To nitpick, my point still stands, since naebdy says it over here (and only folk fae certain parts ae Scotland call emdy “naebdy”), but thanks for broadening my horizon!

    Many of us use “of.” I believe it’s probably more likely that ‘some’ locales don’t use it. 😉 For me it’s a matter of being lazy, or not.


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    Along with the fact that Piper’s words may be viewed as threatening, his entire presentation seems awkward and jumbled. I get the sense that he’s just talking whatever jumps into his head. His story about the rich young ruler, the missions student and the seasoned missionary just don’t seem to fit together well.

    What bothers me more is this conference on training young students to be missionaries. My fear is that they are training young people to go out as missionaries to introduce their “brand” of Christianity. What I don’t think they will be trained in is how to assimilate into a new culture and introduce Jesus in a way that is relevant to those they are serving. Instead, they will introduce the rules and regulations according to their brand and expect it to work in a different culture.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck: for people with true Noo Yawk accents, it’s “a coupla.” (You can hear this in a lot of movies about the Mob, but there are North Jersey accents and phrases in them as well, and there’s a difference, albeit fairly subtle.)


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    @ elastigirl: preach it, sister!


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    @ ken:
    “ken with german flag” long ago lost my attention because he was not honest. Once I became clear that the two Kens were different people (perhaps “ken” could add something to his name to erase further confusion), I was able to give attention to his comments.

    You seem like a good earnest man, ken, but I don’t think you understand what it is like to have been trashed by leaders in the name of God, and then also have it buried/ignored/unaddressed for long periods of time. You chide people to be loving as people need to be when there are conflicts over personality or dearly-held beliefs. You are correct.

    But what we have here is something different, more like the psalmist’s satisfaction over evil people destroyed. It is normal and healthy to be glad when evil is finally exposed. The difficulty is to see through the evil to the person originally made by God. That is where love can still function—or maybe it is not love so much as an earnest desire that God’s work would still be able to bring that person back into the intentions God originally had for him.

    It is, perhaps, a willingness to love again, if the person decided to change. In that context, maintaining basic respect is the common denominator, which would mean, for eg, not mocking him for short stature, which is how he was made and nothing to do with his evil (except perhaps as a factor which may have made behavior worse than otherwise).

    You quoted Gal.5:15 “But if you are always biting and devouring one another, watch out! … But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another.” Well, many here have already been consumed by others, so what then?

    There are two general methods presented in the Bible about how to deal with evil. One is “turn the cheek” and the other is the leaving even your family for Jesus’ sake, plus “rightly dividing”. If you want to take up this issue, it could be useful to talk about how you see what where.


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    @ Kathi:

    What also concerns me is that it doesn’t appear those working with Piper are bothered by what he says. For instance, does the person filming not get any kind of internal check (whoa, what did he just say!?). Maybe such people are so indoctrinated jn the ‘Piper way’ that they don’t hear what others might be hearing.


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    @ elastigirl:

    “I agree, Ken, that there is a fine line. but really — there is some liberation going on here, of people, of pain, of having been muzzled, of principles, of what is fair & right & just. There will be a collective expression of “finally. at last.” The dawn of a new day prompts celebration as well as highlighting the grotesque & twisted contortions that were and still are.

    Be careful here.”

    I think the caution for us is that those who’ve been muzzled and have found their voice, those who have been mistreated and now find themselves on the right side of justice, those of us who breathe out ‘the collective expression ‘at last,” should do everything in our power to ensure we do not become joyful and celebratory in finding fault in the body of Christ. Rather, we are saddened by such displays of grotesque and twisted contortions by evangelical leaders, and will remain resolute in confronting evil while not celebrating its presence. I agree that this is where we should be careful.

    Nelson Mandela was a great man because he ate dinner with his former enemies, loved the prosecutor he put him in jail, and extended grace and love to those who mistreated him in prison. There is a subtle shift taking place in evangelicalism. The people have found their voice! May our spirits and hearts be like Mandela’s, and may we be able to forgive those who’ve wounded us because it was our sin that wounded Christ.

    Thanks for the comment.


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    @ Patrice:
    Patrice you are right…….we are dealing with people who are sociopaths and narcissists today. These men are hardened and consciences are seared. The Bible talks about these men….and Christ use hard language to describe them- vipers, snakes, terrible; “how will you escape”? The Pharisees were men who had no compassion for those around them. When we call these men out, it is not out of vitriol, but out of seeing evil for what it is.
    When we see Jihadists do what they do, do we sit back and say loving words? No we call out the evil that they do because what is in their hearts are apparent. They mean evil instead of just merely sinning. When a husband continually abuses his wife without one ounce of love for her, do we sit back and say lovely things? No, we confront his wickedness, because there is no evidence of a contrite heart. We have to realize that in our world we are surrounded by those whose hearts are cold and have no capability of turning (unless by a miracle) because their intent is for evil only. This is why David and Paul was impassioned in his speech about these kinds of men.


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    @ Wade Burleson:

    ken
    +++++++++++++

    or, to put it another way, church/Christian culture has erred on side of this and that according to some principle (including “for the greater good”) but at the expense of human lives. And with much nonchalance. And tolerance.

    Seems to me you can afford people some tolerance if they may err a bit on this side now.


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    JeffB wrote:

    I agree with a lot of what has been said here about Piper, but, taking him out of the equation for a moment – At what point do we stop being afraid of offending Muslims? Must videos be taken down because someone in it speaks harshly about Islam? What does that say about us or about any non-Islamic country?
    Yes, I know it’s easy for me to talk like this, because I’m probably not in any immediate danger of reprisal. But if the price of no further lives being lost is the abrogation of free speech where Islam is concerned, isn’t the price too high?
    Yeah, Piper is continuing on the path of foolishness he’s been on for some time. (I agree with what he broadly says about Christianity and Islam, but his bravado and self-aggrandizement are foolish.) But free speech allows even foolishness – up to a point. Maybe I’m naive, but I doubt that even a militant Muslim would think that this aging preacher is threatening military action.

    I’m going to respond to this because I think the issue of free speech is used quite a lot, particularly in the U.S., to defend, or at least mitigate, some of the stupid things Christians say publicly. Free speech is a legal right in the U.S. and much of the western world. No one would dispute that. However, the question raised by Piper’s speech and others like it is bigger than that: it involves the image and reputation of Christianity in Muslim lands, and that indeed is something to be safeguarded and for which we should be willing to sacrifice much, including an untempered right to say whatever comes to into our heads without considering the broader consequences for the gospel, and including the kind of spiritual hubris that seems to come across in this video. I can tell you from having grown up as an MK in a Muslim country, Piper’s statement is something that will have a lot of long-time missionaries cringing and hoping their Muslim friends don’t hear. Like it or not, the perception in Muslim lands is that Christianity is monolithic and western, so offense taken at Piper’s words will be often transferred to anyone who identifies as Christian and western. It’s the kind of speech that can set back years, or even decades, of carefully cultivated relationship and trust so crucial to mission work in Muslim lands.


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    numo wrote:

    for people with true Noo Yawk accents, it’s “a coupla.”

    Ah, but they drink kwafi.


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    Wayne I disagree with your assessment of Mandela. He was actually a communist in his ideology and sat down with cold hearted murderers like Castro (who killed thousands of his own). Christ did not say that we are to sit down with these kind of men. He did not with the Pharisees actually, they came to him to knock him down and trap him. These kind of men are dangerous and clever. Whenever have you witnessed a sociopath become changed?


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    Patrice wrote:

    @ ken:
    “ken with german flag” long ago lost my attention because he was not honest. Once I became clear that the two Kens were different people (perhaps “ken” could add something to his name to erase further confusion), I was able to give attention to his comments.

    You seem like a good earnest man, ken, but I don’t think you understand what it is like to have been trashed by leaders in the name of God, and then also have it buried/ignored/unaddressed for long periods of time.

    Patrice,

    Interesting observation about Ken. I do not know him, but I’ve come to the opposite conclusion reading his words. I believe Ken does know what it means to be trashed by leaders.

    I would love to know his story to see which person, you or I, is correct about his past. Not that it would make any difference in what he says, because truth is truth regardless of the experiences of the truth-teller, but for those of us who’ve experienced spiritual bullying, its always nice to know the truth-teller understands the experience.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ Wade Burleson:

    ken
    +++++++++++++

    or, to put it another way, church/Christian culture has erred on side of this and that according to some principle (including “for the greater good”) but at the expense of human lives. And with much nonchalance. And tolerance.

    Seems to me you can afford people some tolerance if they may err a bit on this side now.

    I agree with you elastagirl.

    Understanding and compassion to the hurting is essential. I have such a high view of the power of Christ to heal, that a word of encouragement to those hurting to look to the enthroned King and rejoice and find healing in Him–and not celebrate the moral downfall or failure of others–is a good word of encouragement to us all.

    Heaven knows I have no problem pointing out what I believe to be wrong – it’s definitely my desire not to celebrate the moral fall of a brother or sister in Christ, but to be saddened by the loss of integrity.


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    trust4himonly- Faith wrote:

    Wayne I disagree with your assessment of Mandela. He was actually a communist in his ideology and sat down with cold hearted murderers like Castro (who killed thousands of his own). Christ did not say that we are to sit down with these kind of men. He did not with the Pharisees actually, they came to him to knock him down and trap him. These kind of men are dangerous and clever. Whenever have you witnessed a sociopath become changed?

    I assume you are addressing me, trust4himonly, so I’ll respond. I understand his politics are WAY different than mine, and I’ll not argue his point that Mandela was a communist. My point is that to be able to become friends with the South African apartheid leader who prosecuted you and put you in jail for failing to conform with the principles of apartheid speaks more to character than communism. We probably will have to simply disagree on the character of Mandela, but we are in agreement on the poor principles of his politics.


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    I must leave now and will have no access to a computer. If someone wishes to address me, please be understanding on a lack of reply.


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    In other news, England have been drawn in the Group of Death in next year’s FIFA World Cup.

    In a way, this is a blessing in disguise. We’ve been drawn in soft groups in the past, bumbled into the knockout stage with an unconvincing win against the lowest-ranked team and a couple of insipid draws, then either got stuffed by an in-form and confident team, or fizzled out in the inevitable penalty shootout debacle.

    Whereas next year, to make it past the group stage we’ll have to beat one or both of Uruguay and Italy. Last time we beat Italy in a competitive fixture, we built Stonehenge to celebrate; so if we’re in the knockout stages we’ll almost certainly deserve to be.

    I hope this is helpful.


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    Off topic, but regarding the Challies header above. I visited Challies.com and read about the 5 typical gossips. I offered another:

    Janet • a few seconds ago
    I offer a sixth type: church leaders who slander from the pulpit. It could look like this: target a problem church member, (possibly one who refuses to be complicit in an injustice hidden by the church leaders), tell the congregation that Paul combined steps three and four of the Matthew 18 process (so that you don’t have to explain the supposed offense, or allow them to get involved), then tell them that any contact with the sinner would be gossip. Last, feign sorrow during the announcement, then shroud yourself in “humility and integrity”. Apparently this scenario is common enough that these (typically) gentlemen deserve a category all their own.


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    Wade
    When it comes to high profile leaders like these men, “nothing is as it seems”.
    Lots of back room deals and things we cannot see that went down. I personally don’t give any of these men credence.


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    @ Wade Burleson:

    “not become joyful and celebratory in finding fault in the body of Christ.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    perhaps it’s a matter of perspective. example: if a person has been feeling bad in their body for a while, and a doctor finally diagnoses what it is, the person’s response will be part “oh no” and part “oh yes! deal with it and take it out!” Which way a person leans in their response is a matter of their experience with the trouble, their personality, their viewpoint, several things.

    “joyful and celebratory in finding fault” as an observation is missing the big picture of what is really going on.
    ———————-

    I loved what you said about Nelson Mandela. Corrie Tenboom also comes to mind. I guarantee you they had their day(s) of emotional reckoning and it wasn’t pretty or “christlike” (whatever that really means, i think it is more what Robert powell would have done in “Jesus of Nazareth” circa 1977 than anything else). but we only hear about the beautiful conclusion.


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    @ Wade Burleson:

    darn.

    I really wanted a reply.


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    trust4himonly- Faith wrote:

    Wayne I disagree with your assessment of Mandela. He was actually a communist in his ideology and sat down with cold hearted murderers like Castro (who killed thousands of his own). Christ did not say that we are to sit down with these kind of men. He did not with the Pharisees actually, they came to him to knock him down and trap him. These kind of men are dangerous and clever. Whenever have you witnessed a sociopath become changed?

    Who are you? Joe McCarthy? It is silly to use ‘communist’ as some kind of bludgeon to condemn others without any context.

    Given the context in which Mandela grew up and lived, his attraction to communism (he was never a party member) was understandable and not uncommon. Do some research on the history and politics of decolonization and third world Marxism. I wonder who you would be growing up in Africa under a racist colonial regime?

    Of course Mandela wasn’t a perfect man and of course the media will laud him endlessly right now. Nuance isn’t something they are capable of anymore. But hollering in concert with Bill O’Reilly that Mandela was a communist and opposed to Christ and thereby implying (it would seem) that he is undeserving of admiration is unhelpful. Or at least that is one word for it.

    I know of many an American capitalist to sit down with and abet cold-hearted murderers, too.


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    I tell you he held communistic ideals-http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1255245/posts


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    And I am not defending any capitalist who does the same thing, for true conservatism does not dabble in alliances with those who want to control


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    Patrice wrote:

    “ken with german flag” long ago lost my attention because he was not honest. Once I became clear that the two Kens were different people (perhaps “ken” could add something to his name to erase further confusion), I was able to give attention to his comments.

    My real name is “Ken”, too.
    That’s why I post as Headless Unicorn Guy — too many Kens.


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    In his speech Mandela said:

    “Long live the Cuban Revolution. Long live comrade Fidel Castro… Cuban internationalists have done so much for African independence, freedom, and justice. We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of a vicious imperialist campaign designed to destroy the advances of the Cuban revolution. We too want to control our destiny… There can be no surrender. It is a case of freedom or death. The Cuban revolution has been a source of inspiration to all freedom-loving people.”


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    trust4himonly- Faith wrote:

    I tell you he held communistic ideals-http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1255245/posts

    Hmm… to be honest, Mr. Faith, when it comes to championing the cause of the oppressed, I prefer the way Mandela did it to the way you may or may not have done it.

    Mind you, that’s a great website you linked to – ROFL !!!!


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    ken wrote:

    We’ve been reminding each other is that we all are in the same boat and desperately need grace and respect from each other, no matter how foolish one’s actions may seem. My wife and I can’t expect the kids to initiate these reminders, so we take the responsibility on ourselves. If I were to start a blog like TWW that is desinged to be analytical and critical (a dangerous undertaking in one sense), then I would think I would be duly responsible to maintain the spirit of grace so that self-righteous flavors are constantly being stifled and held at bay.

    So Ken, would it be helpful to start every comment stating what horrible sinners we are and we are just like those who promote and defend those who protect child molesters and make bank off Jesus?

    What you have done, Ken, is to be very vague. Can you be specific as to comments that you think are offensive or not communicating in the way you think appropriate? I am seeing a lot of chiding the messengers of their great sin and self righteousness but little outrage over child molestations, plagurism, spiritual abuse, etc.

    Let me add that I would never see Driscoll, Piper and many others as my “brothers in Christ”. And not becauwse I have the right to make a salvation determination. But because I am to be wise. How am I have to spiritual bond of fellowship with people I could never trust and for whom I think use Jesus’ name for their own self interests? If their actions over a period of years has not proved that to folks, then there is little to discuss. We simply have different standards. I would never trust them and see them more as wolves or hirlings. If that is Christianity then moral chaos reigns. And I am seeing that become the focus. We are to put ourselves in the same category as horrible sinners on par with child molesters, those who protect child molesters, those who spiritually abuse others, etc. Your religion is moral chaos. There is no real standard of right and wrong because we are all just continuous sinners all the time. And how dare you not admit you are as that makes you self righteous. With that in mind, exactly where is justice for all the victims? You do realize this is how SGM approached the child molestation situation.

    And I found it a but amusing your example consists of how you deal with your children. Kind of says it all in how you view the commenters here.

    I think you and Wade might have a “tyranny of niceness” that is so vague we can hardly deal with real evil in what passes as Christianity these days. Instead we just see it as Christians behaving badly but you are just as bad so be careful what you say.

    Why not be very specific on what comments you found bad or gleeful or whatever. Cut and paste them and be very specific on why they are wrong. That would be a much more constructive exercise than the vague exhortations that really tell us nothing.


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    What John Piper says so many times rubs me the wrong way and I think it is because he literally does not believe in context. If something is true, it is always true and it is true to the maximum extent logically (not reasonably) possible. I will not say he is mentally ill because he’s not but he refuses to examine anything from any other perspective than the perspective of God’s glory. Which he does not examine from the perspective of Jesus’ life and death, so he gets it wrong. Again and again.

    Would it be appropriate for him to say to people in Dubai, essentially, that God’s judgment is coming against them because of their wickedness? Sure, it would be just as appropriate to tell New York, Las Vegas, or any other city that. But because Piper does not understand context, he does not understand that it is wrong to tell the Western World that God’s judgment is coming against a Middle Eastern city. Jonah was delighted that God was going to destroy NIneveh, not because he really hated sin but because he didn’t like the Ninevites. How is Piper any different? He delights in judgment coming against others, has many times in the past, and refuses to examine the logs in his own eye (namely that he has never truly considered Jesus as anything more than a part of God’s plan, certainly not God incarnate).


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    @ Wade Burleson:
    Yes, indeed “…truth is truth regardless of the experiences of the truth-teller…” But if Ken has been trashed by Christian leaders, I then must simply disagree with what he learned from his experience on this. I think he is only partly accurate, as stated.

    I’d like to hear how else we might righteously respond to exposures of long-hid evil, especially in light of the psalms that were openly delighted by enemies’ losses.

    What does it mean to give the evil-doer the respect of his humanity while also rejoicing when he falls by exposure of his actions? How does that parcel out on comment threads?

    And I’d still enjoy a discussion about how/where we are to apply the different approaches to enemies: turn your cheek and seventy times seven versus leaving family, dividing the truth, knocking over money-changer’s tables, etc.


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    Wade Burleson wrote:

    Nelson Mandela was a great man because he ate dinner with his former enemies, loved the prosecutor he put him in jail, and extended grace and love to those who mistreated him in prison.

    Are you trying to say that John Piper or a Mark Driscoll is our enemy? But they are professing believers who think they care for our souls with their teaching. I am not sure of your illustration and how it fits. Should judgement not begin with the Body of Christ. And could you give examples of those here who have been “gleeful” in what you think is an inappropriate way. being so vague is really not helping anyone.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    I have a bro named Ken, too. And who could mistake Headless Unicorn Guy for anything but himself? I especially enjoy your initials, “HUG”, which I hereby give you.


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    @ trust4himonly- Faith:

    . . . in one of his speeches somewhere in time.


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    @ Patrice:

    Patrice, I will most defintily rejoice when they lose followers enmasse and there is no more celebrity or wealth associated with their cult of personality. My hope is that people will grow up, mature in Christ and not hang on the words of these celebrities who are growing more bizarre and bold with their behavior/words every day.

    I will rejoice when more and more people see them for what they really are. Frauds using Jesus Name and those same people run to Christ alone and realize they don’t need the gurus anymore.


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    Caleb W wrote:

    Given the context in which Mandela grew up and lived, his attraction to communism (he was never a party member) was understandable and not uncommon. Do some research on the history and politics of decolonization and third world Marxism. I wonder who you would be growing up in Africa under a racist colonial regime?

    My thought as well . . . context


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    So Ken, would it be helpful to start every comment stating what horrible sinners we are and we are just like those who promote and defend those who protect child molesters and make bank off Jesus?…Let me add that I would never see Driscoll, Piper and many others as my “brothers in Christ”. And not becauwse I have the right to make a salvation determination. But because I am to be wise.

    I agree. I have had to fight to release myself from not only the chains of abuse but also to dismantle the attitudes that underlay them, which were entwined in my being. It literally took blood, sweat, tears and a looottt of time. I could not have done it without the Holy Spirit and some very kind generous humans (one of whom was a Christian).

    Thus I am not in the same boat as those who sail along violating those around them for their own egos. By saying so, I do not mean that I am at all perfect but that I am in a boat that goes in a completely different direction than theirs.


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    @ trust4himonly- Faith:

    You want to know the irony of Mandela and his love for communism which is well known to many of us history lovers? Apartied came from Dutch Calvinists. The “Christians” who colonized. I agree with Bridget, context please. Sometimes Christians are their own worst enemy.


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    TW wrote:

    A good conversation on Mortification of Spin:

    http://www.mortificationofspin.org/mos/podcast/structured-accountability

    Sorry Dee, but you may have to, for the second time in a week, give kudos to Carl Trueman.

    He also wrote a good essay at First Thoughts on the commercial clout running evangelical media: http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/12/04/areopagitica/


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Last time we beat Italy in a competitive fixture, we built Stonehenge to celebrate; so if we’re in the knockout stages we’ll almost certainly deserve to be.
    I hope this is helpful.

    How did you decide which posts were for scoring goals?
    In other news, glad to see you survived the storm.


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    In discussing Cuba and Castro, one must be aware of the timing of Mandela’s remarks. Keep in mind that, pre-Castro, Cuba was a right-wing dictatorship installed by the U.S. military and it was very repressive, racist, and many people were in deep poverty. The early days of Castro, in the late ’50s and early ’60s were rather different that the later ones. And keep in mind that the U.S. sought to overthrow Castro and re-install a right-wing dictatorship, b/c a true democracy would have re-elected Castro in a minute.


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    @ Martos:Thank you


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    @ Janet Varin: Its still there. Good for him. Good comment, BTW.


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    Estelle wrote:

    How did you decide which posts were for scoring goals?

    Scoring goals?


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    Wade Burleson wrote:

    @ elastigirl:
    “I agree, Ken, that there is a fine line. but really — there is some liberation going on here, of people, of pain, of having been muzzled, of principles, of what is fair & right & just. There will be a collective expression of “finally. at last.” The dawn of a new day prompts celebration as well as highlighting the grotesque & twisted contortions that were and still are.
    Be careful here.”
    I think the caution for us is that those who’ve been muzzled and have found their voice, those who have been mistreated and now find themselves on the right side of justice, those of us who breathe out ‘the collective expression ‘at last,” should do everything in our power to ensure we do not become joyful and celebratory in finding fault in the body of Christ. Rather, we are saddened by such displays of grotesque and twisted contortions by evangelical leaders, and will remain resolute in confronting evil while not celebrating its presence. I agree that this is where we should be careful.
    Nelson Mandela was a great man because he ate dinner with his former enemies, loved the prosecutor he put him in jail, and extended grace and love to those who mistreated him in prison. There is a subtle shift taking place in evangelicalism. The people have found their voice! May our spirits and hearts be like Mandela’s, and may we be able to forgive those who’ve wounded us because it was our sin that wounded Christ.
    Thanks for the comment.

    I appreciate your giftedness in reframing it this way, Wade. I agree – thank you!


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    SA television is showing non stop tributes to Mandela. Growing up in SA at the end of apartheid, to me Mandela was very much an unknown quantity, a terrorist who had been jailed instead of receiving the death penalty. On his release, he showed grace and dignity, forgiveness towards his oppressors and united the country in ways one could not have imagined just a few short years before. I pray his legacy endures for many years to come.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Tries?


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    Most Muslims who see this will consider it a threat. Islam is a political ideology masquerading as a religion, and is an ideology of war and conquest. To them, they will see it as a threat of violence and war. I can imagine how Muslim jihadists will use this in their propaganda. But I am also disturbed by Piper’s endorsement of charismania too.


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    Um..super C.R.E.E.P.Y. Why is he smiling when he says that??? He doesn’t have the sense God gave a marshmallow.


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    @ Wade Burleson:
    I apologize for being late to the table here. I went to bed last night at 10PM in order to get up very early to bring my daughter to the airport and then I had a lengthy hair appt. The older you get, the more work it takes. 🙂

    So, I read this when I was “processing” at the salon and decided to chew on it for awhile. I think the issue is most complex and I fear I have not arrived at a conclusion. Most importantly, I want to thank you for always being real and loving with us. I think that is why you do so well in your community. It is a rare person who can combine tact with love and grace.

    So here are some thoughts with precious little conclusion.
    -Everyone here is different. Through the years I have watched patients with a similar serious diagnosis respond differently. So, for some, the anger is present for a long time. For others it is grief and depression. For me, when Abby was so sick, I had an odd thing happen to me. For the first two weeks, I thought her tumor was benign. When a doctor called her tumor malignant 2 weeks later, I almost fainted. Bill told me I had been told for 2 weeks it was malignant. Bill Wilson, the chairman emeritus of Duke University Medical Dept of Psychiatry and a dedicated Chrisstian (he just passed away-look him up) heard me give a talk a couple of years ago in which I mentioned this. He told me that such a response is normal-the brain was protecting me until i was ready to deal with the trauma of my little girl with a high likelihood of death.

    So, how others express their anger, depression, frustration,etc. is so individualized that I am hesitant to say much. This is one place in which they can express themselves and, for the most part, feel safe and not ridiculed. I have stepped in a number of times to calm things down but I am usually not comfortable doing so.

    -So many of these posts deal with the problems in leadership. And so many of those leaders will never listen to negative comments, often deleting them and only publishing the “Oh blog editor, you are so wonderful” comments. They live in a Christian la la land in which a simple question is treated as if the person asking should be excommunicated. I still think that it is good that they see and hear the depth of the pain and disgust within their own community. Will they listen? I don’t know but I know they don’t listen even with a gentle reminder.

    -Everyone is in process, me included. When I compare myself to many people who comment here, I am humbled by what they have endured and how they keep on enduring. Where are they on the trail to wholeness? I have no idea. I am not sure where I am and I keep on checking.

    Look at Eagle who came here with such anger that it caused some people to leave the blog. But I felt something deeper and allowed him his process. Watching him be baptized two weeks ago was amazing and will always be a highlight of my life. I cannot wait to tell his remarkable story which i believe you know. You probably know what I mean when I say 130+.

    -As you know, Deb and I do not shrink from criticism of us. We allow many harsh things to be said about us so I am not asking of others what I will not take for myself. However, direct threats will not be tolerated.

    -Can all of us be more loving? Yes-no question. I think of Mother Theresa who harshly judged herself and think of all she did. Compared to her, i have miles and miles to go. And yes, I am a sinner and will be until that Glorious Day. I can always do better, much better.

    And, although Ken’s comment was not responded to, it does not mean that it wasn’t read. We are getting so many comments that I am finding it difficult to keep up. But, you have to at least give us credit for allowing critical comments of us.

    I shall continue to chew on this.


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    @ Wesley:
    Like!


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    Whether whatever anyone wants to call it – right wing, nazism, communism, socialism-
    All have a common goal- control over the freedoms of others. Many come in the guise of freedom but actually live another message. My mother-in-law escaped from Cuba during Castros take over, so I do know a little about the dictatorship of Castro.
    My 1/2 cuban husband could give you a great history overview of this man, he has studied him quite a bit.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck: that’s kaw-fee, Nick. 😉


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    @ John: Not just mission work, either…


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    @ trust4himonly- Faith: When he was a young man, he said those thing, yes, but he became more moderate with time re. violence and learned MUCH about the power of forgiveness. S. Africa was close to civil war after the end of apartheid, and his leadership (before, during and after his presidency) helped keep the country from plunging into a very dark time.

    People change, you know. Their ideas change, and their understanding of better ways to do things often kicks in – with Mandela, that happened, in the face of overwhelming evil and oppression (including what was supposed to be a life sentence in the prison on Robben Island… he forgave his captors, btw).

    I don’t want to make him sound like he was a plaster saint – we all have our flaws. But I believe he was a genuinely good man.


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    And I do not mean to step on anyones toes- I just do not give my praise to men who even may have done one right thing- does not mean they are justified in being conjoined with dictators who have killed thousands. Ends do not justify the means.
    Mandela did write an article about how to be a good communist- that is enough for me to gather what his belief system is.
    this also goes for Piper and Driscoll- their philosophy is of control. So therefore their belief system is communistic – meaning that the common people don’t have the means to think for themselves, but must be beholden to men who “supposedly” do.


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    @ trust4himonly- Faith: OK, I don’t want to assume that you’re pro-dragging Elian Gonzalez in front of the TV cameras and make him recite a script, and I *do* know that Castro has ordered and done some terrible things.

    But the previous corrupt dictators – like Batista – were no better, and, in some ways, a good deal worse.

    I have no sympathy for the current regime in Cuba, but I can see why many of the poorest Cubans – who ended up benefiting from some of the changes – do, though i cannot agree with them.

    I hope things change *very* much for the better there, and soon.


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    @ Kathi:

    Many fundagelicals are quick to use missionary work to create a guilt trip. Meaning the only ones who are serious are those who travel to a third world country, etc… I’m not saying there is anythign wrong with going….but sometimes people go for the wrong reason. I’ve heard stories and know of one personal situation where a person heads of to country x “for the glory of God” goes there expereinces culture shock, get sick, has cultrual problems, difficulty adjusting either due to cultural or health reasons, and a faith crisis on top of all that. The last place a person needs to have a faith crisis is in the middle of Rwanda, Chad, Nigeria, China, etc..


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    Numo, though is it not true that Mandela still kept in contact with dictators and his friendship with them?


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    @ Nick Bulbeck: btw, my pronunciation” just now is actually a Philly/south jersey thing. (My dad came from the Philly area, and his sister never quite lost the distinct pronunciation of certain vowels that’s characteristic of the area.)


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    @ dee:
    Wade

    One final point. So many people who have come here have been abused and/or marginalized. Sometimes the happiness at a leader being found out is a way to say “You know, I wasn’t crazy after all.” It is a happiness that springs from relief that finally there is some evidence that others are seeing the same thing.


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    @ Wade Burleson: socialism/communism means something quite different than what was done in its name in the totalitarian regimes in the former USSR, Soviet Bloc nations, China, Cuba and elsewhere.

    The actions and propaganda of the extreme right (fascism) and the extreme left (Leninist/Stalinist and Maoist) are pretty much identical when you come right down to it.


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    @ numo:

    He ‘could have’ changed in a much different way from his experiences. He didn’t choose that way . . . during or after his imprisonment.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck: OK, I’m missing the reference re. Stonehenge – unless you mean that there was a prehistoric win over Italy! 😉

    Help a girl out here, OK? 🙂


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    @ Estelle:

    No, you were right about goals – I was alluding to the fact that we don’t score them. Didn’t quite work… 🙁


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    @ Caleb W: Thanks so much for this, Caleb. Very much agreed.

    “Funny” thing: we have a new TV show down here about Dracula, where he’s in London in the guise of an American industrialist (self-made man, like Andrew Carnegie) who is ruthlessly buying out competitors in order to undermine some of the competitors’ other dealings (killing vampires and the like).

    it’s very campy and silly, but there are some interesting points and a fairly good cast. Setting looks like Prague, though…


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy: yep; there are a lot of Kens, Debbies, Karens, Pams, etc. in our part of the Baby Boom generation…


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    numo wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck: OK, I’m missing the reference re. Stonehenge – unless you mean that there was a prehistoric win over Italy!
    Help a girl out here, OK?

    In point of fact, we’ve never beaten Italy in a major tournament. The point was just that Stonehenge was built thousands of years ago and in all that time we’ve not beaten Italy.

    Maybe I’ll just go and make a spiced apple sponge instead. (Literally this time – the oven’s already on as I’ve made one cake this evening. But I couldn’t put the spiced apple sponge in at the same time because it needs a cooler oven.)


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    dee wrote:

    and then I had a lengthy hair appt. The older you get, the more work it takes.

    Nope – can’t relate.


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    @ trust4himonly- Faith:

    Ronald Reagan did the same. It doesn’t mean he agreed with everything they did. The physical wall did come down though.


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    @ trust4himonly- Faith: Our presidents have done the same in recent decades, so I don’t think it’s possible for you to blame Mandela without also blaming people like Reagan and Bush (father and son).


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    Patrice wrote:

    but I don’t think you understand what it is like to have been trashed by leaders in the name of God, and then also have it buried/ignored/unaddressed for long periods of time.

    Thanks for the response. I’ve posted here in the past regarding some of our experiences with authoritarian leadership (which are many…the Master’s Seminary grads, Reformed Baptist leadership, Covenant Life Church’s leadership, etc.), so I do know what it’s like to be abused and run over unjustly.

    My wife and I know personally quite a few folks from abroad that have gone through similar circumstances. We have gone through intense difficulties with both sides of our immediate families concerning abusive authority and sinful manipulation. We constantly fight cynicism, but we are more in love with Christ (and each other) than ever before. Thanks be to God!


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    @ Bridget: Exactly!


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    @ Estelle: Your comment deserves to be highlighted, I think.

    thanks so very much for it!


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    elastigirl wrote:

    Seems to me you can afford people some tolerance if they may err a bit on this side now.

    I agree. I would want people to be patient with me, but be willing to confront/remind me when a critical spirit seems to be getting an upper hand.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck: ah… I thought maybe that was your point, but the reference to Stonehenge threw me a bit.

    Your cake sounds yummy!


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    dee wrote:

    @ Wade Burleson:

    Look at Eagle who came here with such anger that it caused some people to leave the blog. But I felt something deeper and allowed him his process. Watching him be baptized two weeks ago was amazing and will always be a highlight of my life. I cannot wait to tell his remarkable story which i believe you know. You probably know what I mean when I say 130+.

    Dee…you mean 132! 😉 Some of you guys were patient with me and I appreciate it. I can’t believe how many faith systems I have had to process in my life… Mormonism, different parts of Christianity, and secular humanism. I’m rough on the edges and I think I will be more toward the outer edges of faith. But I do believe in the Lord. Kind of ironic that I became an evangelcial again given my history. That said…I’m not going to be a happy clappy one. I will ask hard questions, and probably break the mode of what a classic fundagelcial is.

    That said…I don’t know where I’d be today had it not been for Internet Monk and Wartburg. You guys helped me process through hell and find peace. I bounced back from an incredibly difficult siuation which you know of Wade. And I’m not an atheist today which amazes me and with what happeneed I’m still procesing through everything.

    Last night in a Bible study one of the members talked about how her daughter became agnostic. Her daughter feels like Christianity is harmful and hurts more people than it helps. And she is so full of rage. This mother feels like she failed with where here daughter is today. I very much empathized when I heard that story because I remember those days. I don’t want to be a mainstream Christian. And with my theology of Old Earth, rejecting End Times, etc… I have wondered can evangelicalism work? At where I am not now..I’m inclined to slowly say yes. If I was in other churches I would clash with people over theology and probably have given up. But I have found a place that I think is quite healthy that knows the difference between primary and secondary issues. Plus as I learned there is a very controversial church around the corner that’s stories of abuse is notorious in the blogosphere. And my church is a refuge for thse people.

    But I have to give credit to Dee, Deb, Chaplin Mike, Michael Jones at the Christian Monist, and HUG. What would a theology blog be with out HUG’s sense of humor and analysis? 😛


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    @ Eagle: Dude! We love you. I’m so very glad you’re here.


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    numo wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck: that’s kaw-fee, Nick.

    Nope – it definitely has two and a half syllables. I should know, I’ve seen people on the telly saying it.


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    Eagle wrote:

    What would a theology blog be with out HUG’s sense of humor and analysis?

    HUG has been assimilated by the Wartburg machine!


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    @ Eagle: Best lunch at Chili’s ever was in Fairfax post baptism!


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    The Bible says to beware of wolves in sheeps’ clothing. I am happy when wolves are exposed and sheep are released from bondage.


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    @ Eagle:

    Amen Eagle!


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    Eagle wrote:

    Last night in a Bible study one of the members talked about how her daughter became agnostic. Her daughter feels like Christianity is harmful and hurts more people than it helps. And she is so full of rage. This mother feels like she failed with where here daughter is today. I very much empathized when I heard that story because I remember those days.

    Maybe that’s your purpose in the Body, Eagle. You’ve been there, maybe you’re the one to minister to those other Take-Your-God-And-Shove-It burnout/abuse cases.


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    numo wrote:

    The actions and propaganda of the extreme right (fascism) and the extreme left (Leninist/Stalinist and Maoist) are pretty much identical when you come right down to it.

    Guy I used to know referred to Fascism and Communism as “Fascism of the Right” and “Fascism of the Left”, “Fascism” in this context meaning “rule by control freaks.”


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    dee wrote:

    @ Wade Burleson:
    I apologize for being late to the table here. I went to bed last night at 10PM in order to get up very early to bring my daughter to the airport and then I had a lengthy hair appt. The older you get, the more work it takes.

    So, I read this when I was “processing” at the salon and decided to chew on it for awhile. I think the issue is most complex and I fear I have not arrived at a conclusion. Most importantly, I want to thank you for always being real and loving with us. I think that is why you do so well in your community. It is a rare person who can combine tact with love and grace.

    So here are some thoughts with precious little conclusion.
    -Everyone here is different. Through the years I have watched patients with a similar serious diagnosis respond differently. So, for some, the anger is present for a long time. For others it is grief and depression. For me, when Abby was so sick, I had an odd thing happen to me. For the first two weeks, I thought her tumor was benign. When a doctor called her tumor malignant 2 weeks later, I almost fainted. Bill told me I had been told for 2 weeks it was malignant. Bill Wilson, the chairman emeritus of Duke University Medical Dept of Psychiatry and a dedicated Chrisstian (he just passed away-look him up) heard me give a talk a couple of years ago in which I mentioned this. He told me that such a response is normal-the brain was protecting me until i was ready to deal with the trauma of my little girl with a high likelihood of death.

    So, how others express their anger, depression, frustration,etc. is so individualized that I am hesitant to say much. This is one place in which they can express themselves and, for the most part, feel safe and not ridiculed. I have stepped in a number of times to calm things down but I am usually not comfortable doing so.

    -So many of these posts deal with the problems in leadership. And so many of those leaders will never listen to negative comments, often deleting them and only publishing the “Oh blog editor, you are so wonderful” comments. They live in a Christian la la land in which a simple question is treated as if the person asking should be excommunicated. I still think that it is good that they see and hear the depth of the pain and disgust within their own community. Will they listen? I don’t know but I know they don’t listen even with a gentle reminder.

    -Everyone is in process, me included. When I compare myself to many people who comment here, I am humbled by what they have endured and how they keep on enduring. Where are they on the trail to wholeness? I have no idea. I am not sure where I am and I keep on checking.

    Look at Eagle who came here with such anger that it caused some people to leave the blog. But I felt something deeper and allowed him his process. Watching him be baptized two weeks ago was amazing and will always be a highlight of my life. I cannot wait to tell his remarkable story which i believe you know. You probably know what I mean when I say 130+.

    -As you know, Deb and I do not shrink from criticism of us. We allow many harsh things to be said about us so I am not asking of others what I will not take for myself. However, direct threats will not be tolerated.

    -Can all of us be more loving? Yes-no question. I think of Mother Theresa who harshly judged herself and think of all she did. Compared to her, i have miles and miles to go. And yes, I am a sinner and will be until that Glorious Day. I can always do better, much better.

    And, although Ken’s comment was not responded to, it does not mean that it wasn’t read. We are getting so many comments that I am finding it difficult to keep up. But, you have to at least give us credit for allowing critical comments of us.

    I shall continue to chew on this.

    You, Dee, are a gifted leader in His Kingdom. As is Deb. It’s never about “telling others” to pipe down, as it is a tasteful and gracious reminder to those who pipe up after years of silence that we cannot and must not be like our abusers.

    Keep up the tremendous work. Love people where they are. Accept people as they are. And keep on reminding people that the Christ we serve will ultimately set right the wrongs in this world, and until then, we will confront with love and grace.

    Frankly, this discussion and Patrice’s outstanding questions (see below), have motivated me to write a post entitled: “The Ethical Dilemma and Moral Justification for Treating One’s Enemies Differently According to One’s Kingdom Allegiance.” I hope to have it up later today.

    Dee, you make one final point: “One final point. So many people who have come here have been abused and/or marginalized. Sometimes the happiness at a leader being found out is a way to say “You know, I wasn’t crazy after all.” It is a happiness that springs from relief that finally there is some evidence that others are seeing the same thing.”

    Completely understand! My point is we help those who’ve been marginalized to never become the marginalizer, for then we become what those who abused us were.

    Great discussion. As promised, here’s Patrice’s questions that I will address in my post:

    Patrice writes, “I’d like to hear how else we might righteously respond to exposures of long-hidden evil, especially in light of the Psalms, where (God’s people) openly delighted in the enemies’ losses.

    What does it mean to give the evil-doer the respect of his humanity while also rejoicing when he falls by exposure of his actions? How does that parcel out on comment threads?

    And I’d still enjoy a discussion about how and where we (Christians) are to apply the different approaches to our enemies: “turn your cheek” and “forgive seventy times seven” versus “leaving family,” “dividing the truth,” “knocking over money-changer’s tables,” etc…”

    Patrice, I will take a stab at answering your questions. Don’t know how well I will do, but you have articulated some excellent starters for conversation.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    “…spiced apple sponge…”
    ++++++++++

    2 cakes in one day? you’re a wonder. general recipe, please? spongecake isn’t popular here — what is it, really?


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    @ Eagle:

    I am so grateful you were able to work through your struggles. I know you have been an encouragement to so many, and I’m proud of you.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    You want to know the irony of Mandela and his love for communism which is well known to many of us history lovers? Aparthied came from Dutch Calvinists. The “Christians” who colonized.

    Colonized, Penetrated, Conquered, and Planted.

    Though South Africa has its serious problems, it’s so far avoided the genocidal “We’re de Winnin’ Culluh Now” meltdown that’s plagued the rest of post-Colonial Africa.


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    @ ken: Yes, ok, Ken. I regret writing that because it caused the rest of the comment to go missing.

    See also response to Wade: @ Patrice:

    Wade also wrote: “I think the caution for us is that those who’ve been muzzled and have found their voice… should do everything in our power to ensure we do not become joyful and celebratory in finding fault in the body of Christ….. Rather, we are saddened by such displays of grotesque and twisted contortions by evangelical leaders, and will remain resolute in confronting evil while not celebrating its presence.”

    It is not joy in finding fault in the body of Christ, but that the hidden infections are finally being noticed and lanced. We don’t celebrate evil in evangelical leaders but that their evil is brought down because it has been continually destructive. Occasionally we improperly mock the persons themselves, which is rude and out-of-place, but it is offensive to me when people then wonder whether we go in the direction of delighting in evil.

    I think we Christians are sometimes deeply uncomfortable with anger (and the relief that occurs when anger is dissolved by justice). Sometimes we use ideas of forgiveness to push others’ anger away. It is healthy to feel anger (just don’t sin!). It is normal to have forgiven and again feel anger spill out when we see yet another rendition of the same old stuff that hurt us. We who have been victims will be both most useful at helping others who are suffering such, and most angry about it, and most glad when it is exposed.

    Justice comes first, mercy afterwards. Justice is required for those who continue to hurt others and mercy is given after they’ve come to terms with their sin and are working on restitution.

    And since mercy is not a limited thing but is huge as God, slatherings of mercy are for those who’ve been harmed and who are trying to find healing (and such people don’t come here unless they are working at healing, at whatever stage they are, with whatever level of damage they carry).


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    @ Wade Burleson:
    Thanks Wade!!


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    Eagle wrote:

    Many fundagelicals are quick to use missionary work to create a guilt trip. Meaning the only ones who are serious are those who travel to a third world country, etc… I’m not saying there is anythign wrong with going….but sometimes people go for the wrong reason.

    For whatever reason, “Missionary to Darkest AFRICA(TM)” became THE prestige bragging rights for Missionaries, above and beyond elevating Foreign Missionary to the ONLY True Calling of a REAL Christian (contrasted to all you Lukewarm Apostates). Just like mandatory celibacy/cloistered monasticism in the Middle Ages, you got a LOT of Christians who weren’t cut out for the position/lifestyle who felt they HAD to go into it.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    What you have done, Ken, is to be very vague. Can you be specific as to comments that you think are offensive or not communicating in the way you think appropriate?

    Fair question, but since it’s spread all through various postings it would eat a lot of my time up. For starters, how would you rate your own response to me as far as how much it was peppered (seasoned) with grace?


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    Wade Burleson wrote:

    -So many of these posts deal with the problems in leadership. And so many of those leaders will never listen to negative comments, often deleting them and only publishing the “Oh blog editor, you are so wonderful” comments. They live in a Christian la la land in which a simple question is treated as if the person asking should be excommunicated.

    Remember the above comment about “Fascism of the Right” and “Fascism of the Left”?

    Well, this is “Fascism of the Cross”. All but puff-piece propaganda for the Regime is forbidden, and what is not forbidden is Absolutely Compulsory. Just like the long ignoble list of Left-wing and Right-wing dictatorships.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    How am I have to spiritual bond of fellowship with people I could never trust and for whom I think use Jesus’ name for their own self interests?

    Isn’t it always do what degree? Never is an absolute, a very strong word. Do you personally know Piper?


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    So if someone were to stand in front of One World Trade Center and say the same thing, and lace his speech with Koranic references, do you think people would be calm about it? Even my most irreligious Noo Yawker friends would be horrified and calling for the preacher’s arrest.

    What gets me is that with just a few words, John Piper’s probably destroyed missions (such as it is) in Dubai for years to come. Do you really think the emir of Dubai is going to be all that favorable to the next church that someone wants to build there? Seriously, I doubt it. What I really want to know is what the $%^&*()!@#! was Piper and his friends thinking when they (a) recorded that snippet of video and (b) then decided it was worthy of being put up to broadcast the Cross Conference.

    I’m hoping the emir of Dubai and his government are bigger people than John Piper and the Cross Conference and ignore this obvious attempt to stir up trouble.


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    For all the folks talking about how nice a Christian should be and how lovey to an opponent.

    When “niceness” is carried too far, it’s called codependency. The Bible does not support codependency or being “super nice.”

    At times, the Bible refers to some manifestations of codependency as “fear of man,” or in concepts such as, “carry your own burden,” and, “let your no be no.” …etc.

    I was brought up by a highly, highly codependent Christian mother (due to reasons such as her having an abusive dad, her thinking the Bible teachings ‘doormat-ism,’ ‘turn the other cheekism’ at all times in all situations).

    I don’t want to draw this out and make a real long post, but I used to be super duper super nice all the time, in part because Mom raised me that way, and because (due to Christian teaching I heard since I was a kid), assumed the Bible teaches it.

    Being super duper nice, gracious, ‘lovey lovey,’ to people all the time, no matter, in every situation (whether to enemies or friends), is not biblical and really screws up the person who lives this way. I had to Un-learn it.

    In a nutshell, the Bible calls for a balance: be firm but polite to people.
    You don’t have to be a mean jerk to people, but you are not called by God to let people wipe their feet all over you on a blog, or in person.

    Recovering from codependency (being real nice all the time) means you have to learn what boundaries are, that is it acceptable to have them.

    Many super nice Christian people feel it is un-Biblical, selfish, or mean to have boundaries. It is not.

    One book, by Christian psychiatists (or are they psychologists?) is “Boundaries” by Dr. Cloud and Dr. Townsend.

    So some Christians recognize being “too nice” as being a problem among Christians.

    Though personally I found books by Non Christians on the topic to be ten times more helpful than most books from a Christian perspective.


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    @ Patrice:Patrice wrote:

    @ ken: Yes, ok, Ken. I regret writing that because it caused the rest of the comment to go missing.

    See also response to Wade: @ Patrice:

    Wade also wrote: “I think the caution for us is that those who’ve been muzzled and have found their voice… should do everything in our power to ensure we do not become joyful and celebratory in finding fault in the body of Christ….. Rather, we are saddened by such displays of grotesque and twisted contortions by evangelical leaders, and will remain resolute in confronting evil while not celebrating its presence.”

    It is not joy in finding fault in the body of Christ, but that the hidden infections are finally being noticed and lanced. We don’t celebrate evil in evangelical leaders but that their evil is brought down because it has been continually destructive. Occasionally we improperly mock the persons themselves, which is rude and out-of-place, but it is offensive to me when people then wonder whether we go in the direction of delighting in evil.

    I think we Christians are sometimes deeply uncomfortable with anger (and the relief that occurs when anger is dissolved by justice). Sometimes we use ideas of forgiveness to push others’ anger away. It is healthy to feel anger (just don’t sin!). It is normal to have forgiven and again feel anger spill out when we see yet another rendition of the same old stuff that hurt us. We who have been victims will be both most useful at helping others who are suffering such, and most angry about it, and most glad when it is exposed.

    Justice comes first, mercy afterwards. Justice is required for those who continue to hurt others and mercy is given after they’ve come to terms with their sin and are working on restitution.

    And since mercy is not a limited thing but is huge as God, slatherings of mercy are for those who’ve been harmed and who are trying to find healing (and such people don’t come here unless they are working at healing, at whatever stage they are, with whatever level of damage they carry).

    Excellent!

    Two thumbs up.

    You write, “Occasionally we improperly mock the persons themselves, which is rude and out-of-place, but it is offensive to me when people then wonder whether we go in the direction of delighting in evil.”

    I apologize if you think in any form or fashion I implied you or anyone were delighting in evil. I know you don’t – no believer in Christ ever delights in evil.

    Your acknowledgement “we improperly mock the persons themselves, which is rude and out-of-place” is the only thing I’m addressing, but your words are even much stronger than what I would use. “Rude and out of place” are your words, “Understandable and regrettable” are mine. Hopefully, fresh reminders that we need not be rude and mock people simply act as a check in my life, for I am prone to mocking and being rude and I find it refreshing when people like you help me with clear language.

    By the way, I continue to give you a hearty amen on the difference between justice and mercy.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    And I found it a but amusing your example consists of how you deal with your children. Kind of says it all in how you view the commenters here.

    That’s unfortunate as I think you are unfairly reading too much into my example. That example happened to come to mind since we’ve had this very same discussion in the house this week.

    I find it difficult to articulate a lot of things floating around in my head. Too long of a story to tell, but you and a ton of other posters are way beyond my level of smartness. What would take you 5 minutes to type out probably takes me 5x’s that long.


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    @ Patrice:

    Patrice, you are a woman of wisdom.


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    I am not sure if anybody has brought this to light, but Tyndale Publishers and Salem Communications are partners. Driscoll’s book was published by Tyndale, Meffed’s show is on Salem!

    http://salem.cc/testimonials/tyndale-house-publishers/


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    Dee, I’ve complimented your ability to articulate so well, and once again you’ve exhibited that gift.

    I agree with your comment about different stages of dealing with traumatic events or treatment. Wade understands that process as he dealt patiently with a new believer who wore beer t-shirts to church over a period of time.

    At the conclusion of trials, the survivors of victims are permitted to express thoughts and feelings in an impact statement directed at the perpetrator. Those I’ve heard were none too gracious, but rather much anger and resentment which no doubt led to a long period of healing. Anger is a normal expression. Hatred is different.

    My own observation is that if victim’s voices are not being heard, understood, and taken seriously, they begin to speak louder until someone listens. But when the victim’s voices are ignored completely, others begin to voice their outrage on behalf of those who are seeking justice from those who should be offering it voluntarily.

    Instead, “stay sweet” is echoed along with a multitude of “buzz” words designed to silence, not only the victims, but those who speak for them.

    I have a close friend who reminds me often that “anger masks pain.” I agree.


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    TW wrote:

    I am not sure if anybody has brought this to light, but Tyndale Publishers and Salem Communications are partners. Driscoll’s book was published by Tyndale, Meffed’s show is on Salem!
    http://salem.cc/testimonials/tyndale-house-publishers/

    Well that explains the shut down and apology . . . but not the dishonesty. Mefferd surely knew this.


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    @ Wade Burleson:
    I do love an occasional good argument with you, Wade. Will enjoy reading your post.

    As for rudeness, I think it useful now/then to use against people’s behavior/words but never to their persons, which God made beautifully even if they have trashed themselves badly. It is, really, out of respect for God, not them, that I work hard to maintain civility (don’t always succeed.)

    And if, out of that, I develop some affection for them, being around them a lot, that’s gravy and grace. But always reserving the right to be clear-as-required regarding bad behavior/words lol


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    I comment unapproved since the commenter said (s)he didn’t care. If you want to comment, you should at least pretend to care.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    “…spiced apple sponge…”
    ++++++++++
    2 cakes in one day? you’re a wonder. general recipe, please? spongecake isn’t popular here — what is it, really?

    It’s a rather grandiose title for a fairly basic cake, really.

    Sponge is butter/margarine, self-raising flour (or whatever it’s called over there!) and sugar in equal quantities, with one egg per 12 ounces or so of everything else. That’s your basic sponge mix (bake at about 170 C until a skewer pushed into the cake comes out clean). If you add cocoa and vanilla, that’s chocolate sponge; vanilla alone works fairly well; the zest and juice of as many lemons as you can be bothered to grate makes lemon sponge; but for spiced apple sponge, it’s some apples chopped into smallish pieces and a teaspoon full of nutmeg, cinnamon and similar.

    In the event, as it’s getting a bit late, I changed my mind and decided to do the chick pea curry and the sausage casserole for the w/e. Sorry, that should be tough dude pea curry.


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    dee wrote:

    I comment unapproved since the commenter said (s)he didn’t care. If you want to comment, you should at least pretend to care.

    Well, me thinks they lie to themselves. If they REALLY didn’t care then they wouldn’t bother to write a comment. Maybe the first step is to get a grip on what they REALLY feel.


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    @ Southwestern Discomfort:

    All I can say is damn!! Where is the like button!! 😀


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    Victorious wrote:

    Dee, I’ve complimented your ability to articulate so well, and once again you’ve exhibited that gift. I agree with your comment about different stages of dealing with traumatic events or treatment.

    I agree. Dee’s reminders about how it takes a long time to recover and we go through stages, and her and Deb’s infinite patience is why I feel safer here than I ever have among any bunch of Christians. Thanks!


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    @ ken:

    Ken, Are you suggesting Piper is a totally different person in private anddoes not agree with his own public words and behavior?


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    @ Bridget:
    Bridget, first of all I did not bring up any other names to compare Mandela with.
    Second, you have to look at the beliefs and ideologies of that person; who they hang around with (buddies with); the consistent fruit. These are the same things we look at with these church leaders- “by their fruit you will know them”.
    Because Mandela is famous, because he is black, and because the media continually paints a rosy picture of this man does not take away the fact of his belief system.
    We can say the same thing about Driscoll and CJMaheny. These church leaders have done wonderful things like give to the poor and go on missions, BUT their ideology paints them as different then what they put out into the public.
    This is all I will say- God bless :)!


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    @ TW:

    Thanks TW. I had no idea. Explains a lot.


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    @ numo:
    Kaw feh is more like it.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy: this comment troubles me. Sometimes it’s good to try and look at things through the eyes of others. And using Uncle Remus-style stereotypes his just… well.


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    Victorious wrote:

    I have a close friend who reminds me often that “anger masks pain.” I agree.

    I write this tentatively, because I know what you mean and I don’t want to nitpick. But sometimes anger does not mask pain; it’s simply anger. That it stems from an injustice that the angry person has experienced firsthand does not disqualify their evidence nor change the fact that wrong has happened.

    The reason I think the distinction is important is that the notion of “hurt” is often used by the powerful to marginalise and belittle their victims. Consider Morgoth Duncan’s injunction to “ignore the assaults of wounded people” – I doubt whether he was admitting they had been wounded by SGM; rather, he was using it as a pejorative term for people who are to be pitied at best, but not respected.

    And even those who are vaguely sympathetic to victims of abuse may still use “hurt” to infantilise them – you’re obviously very hurt, so you need to deal with your pain and find healing. What that may possibly mean is: your anger makes me uncomfortable: please find a way of making it go away such that we don’t have to rock the boat in the process. They want the person to return to a passive and contented state and let go of their anger when, in fact, their anger may be an echo of God’s own heart and trying to anaesthetise it away may be wrong on every level.

    God himself gets angry, and even declares that there are things he hates. Perhaps the cross wasn’t to deal with “sin” at all, but was just a way that God found helpful in bringing healing for all his hurt and pain… I doubt it, though.


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    @ An Attorney: not in Philly, though it’s hard to find the best way to write it out!


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    My hair cuts take 3-4 minutes, once every two weeks or so, in my bathroom, in a state of extreme unclothedness


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    An Attorney wrote:

    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    My hair cuts take 3-4 minutes, once every two weeks or so, in my bathroom, in a state of extreme unclothedness

    That’s 33% more information than I needed!


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    Southwestern Discomfort wrote:

    So if someone were to stand in front of One World Trade Center and say the same thing, and lace his speech with Koranic references, do you think people would be calm about it? Even my most irreligious Noo Yawker friends would be horrified and calling for the preacher’s arrest.

    This is the first thing that came to mind with Piper’s wording…brought back those horrific TV images of the towers falling, people jumping, the dust clouds…and I’m not even American. I was actually thinking about Piper this morning – I was driving on the South Circular in London & you go through so many different communities & cultures. At one slow point I was watching a set of teachers out with a long train of little children (probably 4 or 5 years old)…all these little ones were wearing teeny neon jackets so they could be clearly seen, & the one in front was wearing little red velvet antlers for the festive season. Beyond adorable. And it just hit me that people like Piper look at groups like this & sincerely believe that God has chosen not to save most of these children because his glory is better served by their punishment. And my heart wept. Oh, how horrible is his ‘God’.
    At least Nick is here to cheer me up, you make me laugh several times a thread Mr Bulbeck.


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    Bridget

    Darn straight! 


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    Re Mandela: I think you have to look at before and after. There was a point in his life where he changed dramatically. And as Christians, we have to be aware that those kinds of changes do take place. Clearly, the last 20 years of his life were dramatically different in his beliefs than a great portion of the earlier years.

    BTW, the only truly communist community was the first century Christian church.


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    Victorious

    You are such a positve encourager. We need more like you in this world.


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    TW wrote:

    but Tyndale Publishers and Salem Communications are partners.

    They don’t mean real partners in the legal sense, they mean that Tyndale advertises on Salem.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    At least Nick is here to cheer me up, you make me laugh several times a thread Mr Bulbeck.

    In other news, there will be no need to discuss cricket for the foreseeable future.


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    Tyndale is “substantially” owned by a private foundation. Salem is a publicly traded for-profit company. They don’t have common ownership.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    They want the person to return to a passive and contented state and let go of their anger when, in fact, their anger may be an echo of God’s own heart and trying to anaesthetise it away may be wrong on every level.

    I don’t for a minute perceive your comment as nitpicking! I appreciated it.

    But just because there are those who would use pain or hurt in order to marginalize someone, doesn’t mean it isn’t real. Rather than understanding that pain and hurt is a normal reaction to cruel, insensitive injustice, they use it as a tool to, as you say, infantilize them. But recognizing that as a ploy should enable the wounded to stand strong and maintain their dignity and refuse to be silenced by such tactics.

    Anyway, you’ve given me food for thought.


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    Wade

    Years ago, just prior to starting the blog, we were raked over the coals by someone from a well known seminary who we went to with our concerns about Mark Driscoll, CJ Mahaney and others. We begged him to look at what was going on. He laid into us, in essence saying: “Who do you think you are? These men are supported by (commence lengthy list of well known Christian leaders).” We were so discouraged. We even wondered if we were wrong. But to accept that we were wrong would mean that we would have to turn our backs on some important concerns like chiuld sex abuse and pastors hurting their own people. And somehow we knew we had to speak out.

    As time has gone on, our concerns appear to have been somewhat validated. I bumped into this gentleman recently. Although the conversation was stilted, I can say that I felt somewhat stronger and did not hang my head in his presence. In fact, I was even able to smile at him because I felt secure that the Deb and I were not crazy. In fact, it also validated that two middle aged women who stayed home with their children can sometimes have better insight than seminary professors with fancy degrees.This is not to gloat. But that insight has led to strength as we have written this blog. In fact, it has helped us to believe the stories of many, including those whose children were hurt. It is hard to be a woman fighting these issues because many of the men involved do not believe that women should ever question their authority. 

    But, more important than their disapproval is our love for those who have been hurt and who are being hurt. We want them to know that they are not nuts and that we will have their backs. And when I see Janet suddenly reduced to “no comments” I want her to know that we give a hoot and we believe in her. We are praying for her and we will do anything in our power to help her.


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    Victorious wrote:

    Instead, “stay sweet” is echoed along with a multitude of “buzz” words designed to silence, not only the victims, but those who speak for them.

    I wholeheartedly agree with what you wrote, but there is also the dimension of an inner circle of those who frequently post here who seem to be ‘beating the dead horse’ with the same flavor of comments directed towards the same people over and over and over. To me, this incites more of the same and cultivates the self-righteous attitude. If I read the comments for too long, I often find myself going away and doing the same. The solution for me is the more I breathe and understand grace found in Christ, the more I exhibit it in my responses. I frequently fail.


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    @ dee:
    Preach it, sister.

    And yes, let’s pray for Janet Mefferd.


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    anon 1 wrote:

    @ ken:
    Ken, Are you suggesting Piper is a totally different person in private anddoes not agree with his own public words and behavior?

    No, I’m not suggesting that. Take the focus off Piper and swing it on me for a second. You’ve developed a judgment of me (rightly or wrongly) based on my posts alone since you don’t know me personally. Wouldn’t you agree that personal knowledge of someone greatly affects/tempers your judgement of them vs. a judgement solely based on their writings or activities judged from afar? We love to assume we know *for sure* what they mean and what drives them.

    In my quest for truth and perspective I’ve been delayed often at the Minneapolis airport and was always on the lookout for Piper (since I knew he flew quite a bit) in hopes to pick his brain. Never happened. No, Piper’s not my hero…Christ alone is.

    In fact my view of Piper has changed somewhat since then. But, I learned early not to assume I know beyond a shadow of doubt what a person is saying based on their writings or sermons. My view of certain people often changed a good deal since I took the time to engage them personally, and I am more in love with Jesus and others because of it.


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    ken wrote:

    but there is also the dimension of an inner circle of those who frequently post here who seem to be ‘beating the dead horse’ with the same flavor of comments directed towards the same people over and over and over

    Their voices are validating and supporting one another in their efforts to be heard. I hope they don’t stop until their mission is accomplished.

    Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue…Deut. 16:20


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    dee wrote:

     It is hard to be a woman fighting these issues because many of the men involved do not believe that women should ever question their authority.

    That’s one reason I like stopping by here – lots of women with a ton of wise perspective. I was sheltered from that for most of my life.


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    @ dee:

    To Dee, Deb and Janet, we offer our prayers of support along with our encouragement in that famous “Latin” motto

    Illegitimi non carborundum


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    Victorious wrote:

    Their voices are validating and supporting one another in their efforts to be heard. I hope they don’t stop until their mission is accomplished.
    Justice, and only justice, you shall pursue…Deut. 16:20

    I hope they don’t stop either, but you’ve made no mention of the dangers of spawning self-righteous attitudes along the way. I find that interesting. Would like to hear your thoughts.


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    dee wrote:

    I comment unapproved since the commenter said (s)he didn’t care. If you want to comment, you should at least pretend to care.

    Wsit a sec … now I have to start caring too?!


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    @ dee:

    Dee,

    I understand. Been where Janet is. Understand the threats. Realize more than many what people are capable of doing when out to destroy one’s reputation and career.

    You and I are friends. We’ve been around the block a time or two. Justice will prevail in the Janet Mefferd case. More importantly, I believe God is going to use you, Deb and me (and others) to help justice prevail.

    Janet has been silenced by authorities and the “powers that be.” There are people in this world who can take on those powers without fear of losing income, prestige or reputation. The three of us are included.

    I think you will see when I finish the post I’m preparing my call remains for all of us who love Christ and His Kingdom to pursue justice, confront evil, and to love people, but to steadfastly avoid taking on the temperament of those who abuse others.

    You and Deb and I are in a position to invoke real change. When we take no pleasure in the downfall of any ministry, be it a friend or a person deemed an enemy, but we steadfastly pursue justice–an action which may ultimately involve the closing of a ministry in order to prevent future harm to other Christians–then we work with the moral authority and power of our King.

    “Do not repay evil for evil, or insult for insult” (I Peter 3:9). We simply go about our business of loving people, revealing the truth, and providing a safe haven for those who’ve been hurt spiritually, emotionally, and physically–while never excusing anyone who takes an approach similar to an evil-doer.

    You two are Rock Stars!

    🙂


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    @ ken:

    “You’ve developed a judgment of me (rightly or wrongly) based on my posts alone since you don’t know me personally”
    +++++++++++

    hi, ken — I believe she is simply responding to your words, not to you personally. Thoughts prompted from observable data (something we all do constantly all day long).

    You’ve mentioned grace, seasoned with grace. That, to me, is quite a cultural thing. What is seasoned with grace to one person is nauseating saccharine fakery to another. What is brusque and direct to one person is polite conversation to another.


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    Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but Jezebel did an article today all about Mark Driscoll. He’s getting some mainstream critcism now, for whatever that is worth.


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    @ anon 1:
    Anon1, when I was 5 yrs old, I stood in my bedroom with my fists clenched after yet another round of rot from my dad, and I squeezed my eyes shut and announced to myself, “But I am going to be a nice girl!!! I WILL!!”

    I honestly believe that was the Holy Spirit telling this little girl that Goodness was the one solid thing to hold onto. Eventually I came to understand that it was God I meant by saying “nice”. That which is Loving and True, which builds up rather than breaks down.

    It’s a little embarrassing, but anything I’ve learned since then has been the result of that first whisper, assuring me of something I’d not known before, something I could decide on and follow. I feel very grateful because it has been my Stability ever since.


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    @ ken:

    “That’s one reason I like stopping by here – lots of women with a ton of wise perspective. I was sheltered from that for most of my life.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    ken– I doubt you realize how stunning & breathtaking it is to hear that from a Christian man. and how totally awesome it feels.


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    Hello,

    I haven’t commented here lately. My apology for not reading through all of the previous comments before posting this… I did get to Wade Burleson’s comment and appreciated it.

    Here are a couple of personal thoughts about the comments that appear here and the way I perceive the spirit in which they are given… Not trying to stir anything up, just to share what I think, for what it’s worth.

    I’ve been reading stuff on this site on and off, for quite some time now… with only a bit of posting of my own here and there. It’s been very educational for me. I have sure learned a lot. In some respects, reading this site has caused me to change my thinking and become more nuanced and gracious (I hope!). I appreciate very much the stand taken against abuse, against dishonesty and hypocrisy. I admire the fight for what is true and fair, in spite of any negative labels put on by opponents.

    That being said, I do confess that at times I felt put off by comments read here – not simply because they expressed disagreement with my own beliefs, because one can disagree graciously and respectfully and I see no problem with that. I do understand that not everyone commenting here is or claims to be a Christian and that there are people coming from a variety of backgrounds. That’s fine and I admire the openness of this site to all manner of opinions. But when someone who did a lot of commenting at one point wrote stuff like ‘F… Piper! F… Piper!’ and the hosts said nothing to curb that (however much sympathy they had for the commenter), I saw that as a problem. That the person who wrote the comment in question had frustrations which could be legitimate I understand… I didn’t understand the silence of the hosts – no offense, Deb and Dee. I understand the commenter may have not been a Christian at the time, or may have been one and had valid reasons to be angry: I’m not disputing that… But we want our stand to not give our opponents a reason to be put off needlessly and to point the finger at us for a legitimate reason… right? I would have made it a point to friendly ask the commenter to moderate the language, and would have explained that we do criticize harshly what needs to be criticized, the ideas and behavior of public personalities scrutinized… But at the same time we expect everyone commenting to try to extend them the same respect as human beings that they wish extended to themselves. I can tell you one thing for sure: the very people who need to read and realize how wrong some of these preachers are… those very people would be alienated from the get-go by such language and such a spirit. They wouldn’t even get to the point of rationally and calmly examining evidence when faced with such comments. (And please understand I’m not attacking any commenter in what I say… It doesn’t really matter who the commenter was.)

    There were comments where I felt that people were unnecessarily/excessively condemning others and extending no grace. An example of something that came across to me in this manner: at some point, Kirk Cameron was discussed. Longer ago, I used to admire him. Now I understand there are problems about some of his affiliations and beliefs. But, along with valid arguments about why his position in some respects is wrong, to throw in sentences in which he’s called derogatory names just because, for instance, he chose to have his own wife in the movie Fireproof, in the kissing scene toward the end of the movie… was not gracious at all. You and I may have legitimate reasons to disagree with him on several points of doctrine or on several affiliations he’s chosen, but why denigrate a man and call him ugly names simply because he chose to honor his wife? It was his choice and one I think reflected his love for her. I disagree with him now in several respects but actually admire that.

    Also, graphic, lewd, indecent comments – there were some I do remember – mocking at some of the preachers/pastors/authors discussed are not helpful in the least and they actually help lower the credibility of the stand taken against the deviations of those preachers/pastors/authors. I would think we want to be seen as people who do not actually enjoy being negative, but who are willing to point to whatever is false and harmful because we love truth… and because we don’t want others to be harmed. But not as people who are defiling themselves and others with dirty mockery… Why would we lower ourselves to that if we have legitimate arguments?

    For a while I really thought of not reading here anymore because, while I agreed with much that the hosts stand for – not everything – some of the spirit of the site wasn’t helpful anymore to my spiritual life …it was bothering me. I have continued reading, but with greater pauses in between visits, simply because I *want*/*need* to know what is happening in the Christian/evangelical world… Lately, I think Dee and Deb have made more of an effort to control the language, I know they made rules, and I appreciate that…

    I’m sorry if my post doesn’t sound as clear or coherent as I’d wish… It’s rather late where I am. I hope nobody was offended by what I wrote because it wasn’t my intention to cause any offense. I wish you all many blessings!


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      __

    “Follow Da Proverbial Rabid Righteous Religious Rankers?”

    hmmm…

    Dee…

      That your imaginative stories about da Religious Kool-Aid Dispensers and crõõked talk’in, and a mystical place called NefariousR_land ends up getting everyone’s  attention?

    hmmm…

    Knock knock, Wartburg…

    …follow da proverbial White Rabbit…

    What?

      No one could have really guessed how deep dis proverbial rank religious rabbit hole goes, huh?

    PU

    Having turn their ears from the truth, Kind Folk have been skooker’d unto fables,huh?

    could b.

    (sadface)

    Preach the word, Wartburg!

      For the time will come when they will not suffer wholesome godly women presenting God’s truth, but will heap upon themselves Calvinesta teachers, and shall be given unto conference table fables.

    …the fruit of Wartburg Watch, is always in season,

    YaHooooooo!

    Thank-you for all da sweeeeeeet longsufferin’!

    (heav’in knows.)

    hum, hum, hum…
    …we’re gonna cause talk n’ suspicion, display da facts in striking exaction… finding out what it’s all about? 
    …after reading Wartburg, we’re gonna…let it all hang-out! **

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    Sopy
    __
    Comic relief: Eric Clapton/JJ Cale- ** ‘After Midnight’ +
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WUeOEkl270


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    ken wrote:

    I hope they don’t stop either, but you’ve made no mention of the dangers of spawning self-righteous attitudes along the way. I find that interesting. Would like to hear your thoughts.

    My understanding of self-righteousness is those attitudes exhibited by the unregenerate human nature. I don’t see that here. Most, from what I’ve read, are Bible-believing Christians who freely admit to their failures and weaknesses. But at the same time expect Pastors and elders to maintain the same standard that is imposed on the members of their churches and the holiness they preach from the pulpit.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    That did cross my mind but I thought I’d play up the sporting ignoramus persona. I once saw a cartoon of Stonehenge as the original prototype for a soccer field.


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    trust4himonly- Faith wrote:

    Patrice you are right…….we are dealing with people who are sociopaths and narcissists today….When we call these men out, it is not out of vitriol, but out of seeing evil for what it is….When a husband continually abuses his wife without one ounce of love for her, do we sit back and say lovely things? No, we confront his wickedness, because there is no evidence of a contrite heart….

    Yes, there are some who are sociopathic, although I suspect most are garden-variety narcissistic types. I agree that we do need to confront them. But when I give them a tentative label, I immediately retreat to a picture of God making them, of how beautifully designed each one is, and how immensely sad S/He must feel that they have become such a mess. This helps me keep from treating them with total contempt, which my heart sometimes finds easier to do. Not that easier is necessarily bad but, in this case, I find I cannot forgive them if I dehumanize them.

    I am not at all conservative but whether from the left or the right, any time any where that people try to take over others and misuse them, I am against them, no matter what name they give themselves, no matter in whose name they think they can proceed.

    It seems to me that any system can be (and has been) corrupted. We have found no best way to structure ourselves that can keep the hearts of some humans from grabbing power over others. But surely we can find better ways than we have tried so far?! :-/


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    @ ken:

    “spawning self-righteous attitudes”
    ++++++++++++++++

    hi, again, ken. having my own share of lots of thoughts here.

    I think it’s possible to confuse self-confident, self-assured, decisive, direct, & plain-speaking conviction with “self-righteous” in someone who is pointing out a person’s/group’s error & wrongdoing.

    My experience of Christian communication over my lifetime is that it is so loaded with self-deprecation and hyper-deference (as well as flowery sweetness) that their absence in someone deemed “Christian” can be jarring and off-putting.

    In my view, communication wherever it lands on the soft to abrasive scale is largely a cultural thing, and no indicator of attitude or character.


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    Lots of good discussion here and world needs more civility. I think the community here is very civil with anyone wanting an honest give-and-take discussion. I do, however, believe that expressing anger at so-called ‘Christian leaders’ who engage in abuse or say ludicrous things is legitimate, within limits, when they refuse to enter into discussion about what they’ve done or said, delete or simply not allow any comments that question them regardless of how civilly they are presented, and/or engage in acts to silence any criticism of their public behavior.

    Even Paul himself expressed his anger at times at those he thought we’re undermining the Gospel. A classic example is his use of dark humor in Galatians 5:11-12:

    But my friends, why am I still being persecuted if I am still preaching circumcision? In that case the offense of the cross has been removed. I wish those who unsettle you would castrate themselves!


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    Patrice wrote:

    trust4himonly- Faith wrote:

    Patrice you are right…….we are dealing with people who are sociopaths and narcissists today….When we call these men out, it is not out of vitriol, but out of seeing evil for what it is….When a husband continually abuses his wife without one ounce of love for her, do we sit back and say lovely things? No, we confront his wickedness, because there is no evidence of a contrite heart….

    Yes, there are some who are sociopathic, although I suspect most are garden-variety narcissistic types. I agree that we do need to confront them. But when I give them a tentative label, I immediately retreat to a picture of God making them, of how beautifully designed each one is, and how immensely sad S/He must feel that they have become such a mess. This helps me keep from treating them with total contempt, which my heart sometimes finds easier to do. Not that easier is necessarily bad but, in this case, I find I cannot forgive them if I dehumanize them.

    I am not at all conservative but whether from the left or the right, any time any where that people try to take over others and misuse them, I am against them, no matter what name they give themselves, no matter in whose name they think they can proceed.

    It seems to me that any system can be (and has been) corrupted. We have found no best way to structure ourselves that can keep the hearts of some humans from grabbing power over others. But surely we can find better ways than we have tried so far?! :-/

    Bingo. Bulls Eye. Brilliant. 🙂


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    @ Monica:

    Monica,

    I’m tracking with you. You are very articulate, and like Ken, one of the things I find so refreshing about Wartburg Watch is the number of sharp, articulate, confident women who know how to express themselves and are unafraid to make known their views and defend them. I don’t think you “stirred the pot.” I think you have caused us all to think.

    Just a word of defense for my friends Dee and Deb. When I write about my concern over how we say what we say I am not advocating that Dee and Deb take ownership over what others say. Years ago I was “censured” for not moderating, stopping, quieting, and deleting comments from others on my blog. I explained that I am not in charge of what others say, but if they would point out any example of how I violated any standard of decency, any boundary of Christian civility, or compromised any ethical standard, I would be more than happy to correct it. They could not show me. They could only show the words of others on my blog.

    I sympathized with what they were wanting, but I explained I could express my desire that others hold to a high standard on what they write (which I did), but I was NOT going to correct, scold, chastise, or remove the words of people who were angry and bitter. I would leave them to the Lord and His work in their lives, trusting that any words I might have for them might produce a change of heart in them, but I would not be doing for them what was their responsibility. I think Dee and Deb take a similar approach on their blog as well

    I resonate with much of what Daisy, Victorious, Patrice and other women are saying here, as well as you. Thanks for your comment.


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    Victorious wrote:

    ken wrote:
    I hope they don’t stop either, but you’ve made no mention of the dangers of spawning self-righteous attitudes along the way. I find that interesting. Would like to hear your thoughts.
    My understanding of self-righteousness is those attitudes exhibited by the unregenerate human nature. I don’t see that here. Most, from what I’ve read, are Bible-believing Christians who freely admit to their failures and weaknesses. But at the same time expect Pastors and elders to maintain the same standard that is imposed on the members of their churches and the holiness they preach from the pulpit.

    Thanks, Victorious. How are you defining self-righteousness in order to make it exclusive to the unregenerate?

    Merriam-Webster defines self-righteousness as ” having or showing a strong belief that your own actions, opinions, etc., are right and other people’s are wrong”

    Wikipedia: “Self-righteousness (also called sanctimoniousness, sententiousness, and holier-than-thou attitudes[1]) is a feeling or display of (usually smug) moral superiority[2] derived from a sense that one’s beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person.”


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    elastigirl wrote:

    @ ken:
    “spawning self-righteous attitudes”
    ++++++++++++++++
    hi, again, ken. having my own share of lots of thoughts here.
    I think it’s possible to confuse self-confident, self-assured, decisive, direct, & plain-speaking conviction with “self-righteous” in someone who is pointing out a person’s/group’s error & wrongdoing.
    My experience of Christian communication over my lifetime is that it is so loaded with self-deprecation and hyper-deference (as well as flowery sweetness) that their absence in someone deemed “Christian” can be jarring and off-putting.
    In my view, communication wherever it lands on the soft to abrasive scale is largely a cultural thing, and no indicator of attitude or character.

    Thanks for the thoughts! I would agree with the first part, but am not sure about the last sentence – “communication is…no indicator of attitude or character”. I think upright/blameless character exhibits itself in one’s bedside manners in how they use their tongue.


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    @ ken:
    Ken, a better solution would be not to read here since you recognize it influences you negatively.


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    ken wrote:

    Wouldn’t you agree that personal knowledge of someone greatly affects/tempers your judgement of them vs. a judgement solely based on their writings or activities judged from afar? We love to assume we know *for sure* what they mean and what drives them.

    I have found that a few people who talk/act destructively were better close up but most were worse. It was nice to be surprised by the few, though. Among them, I found they were saying things primarily from pain rather than ego. So I would have huge mercy for them, but if they didn’t slowly face their pain and instead continued to lash out, eventually I had to step away again. I have found only one person who actually changed. It was lovely, maybe more so because of its rareness!

    As you suggest, doing it for sheer curiosity is its own reward. But when I did, I generally didn’t find them very interesting, after all. YMMV, of course. It seems to me that the only advantage beyond curiosity is simply to be reminded of their humanity. And since I deliberately keep that in mind, I have found little benefit in the exercise.

    Much more interesting to hang out with people who find life to be a cooperative adventure! Such as the people here: vulgarity, rage, tears, humor, and all. And we are certainly not all of a type. Sweet!


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    @ ken:

    yes, I had second thoughts after typing that. I think it would be correct to say that wherever communication lands on the soft to abrasive scale is largely a cultural thing, and isn’t necessarily an indicator of attitude or character.

    having some relatives & many friends from cultures very different from own has made this clear to me. All have hearts of gold, and some are as direct and abrupt as can be.


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    ken wrote:

    Thanks, Victorious. How are you defining self-righteousness in order to make it exclusive to the unregenerate?

    From the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia:

    The Pharisees quite generally resented the idea of Jesus that all men needed repentance and they most of all. They regarded themselves as righteous and looked with contempt on “sinners.” Paul in all his writings, especially Rom 3; Gal 3; Eph 2; Phil 3, contrasts the righteousness that is God’s gift to men of faith in Jesus Christ, with righteousness that is “of the law” and “in the flesh.” By this latter he means formal conformity to legal requirements in the strength of unregenerate human nature. He is careful to maintain (compare Rom 7) that the Law is never really kept by one’s own power. On the other hand, in full agreement with Jesus, Paul looks to genuine righteousness in living as the demand and achievement of salvation based on faith. God’s gift here consists in the capacity progressively to realize righteousness in life.


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    @ ken:

    Ken, they make their living as public communicators with platforms. .would knowing you personally change the meaning of your words here? Would I be expected to agree with vague exhortations because you are a nice guy in person? I would ask you the same questions over coffee and nicks sponge.


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    @ Gear Sink:
    Gear, who is Jezebel?


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    elastigirl wrote:

    You’ve mentioned grace, seasoned with grace. That, to me, is quite a cultural thing. What is seasoned with grace to one person is nauseating saccharine fakery to another. What is brusque and direct to one person is polite conversation to another.

    You’ve got me thinking. “Let your speech at all times be gracious (pleasant and winsome)… Colossians 4: 6a

    My downfall in my speech at times is to get irritated or ‘irked’ with someone that doesn’t understand what I am trying to communicate to them in the time frame that I think they should grasp it. Irritation isn’t gracious, imo. Irritation can be easily conveyed through the keyboard as well. Is this a merely a cultural thing?


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    anon 1 wrote:

    @ ken:
    Ken, a better solution would be not to read here since you recognize it influences you negatively.

    Not in full, but in part (at times when I read the comments)…subject to change. 🙂


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    Patrice wrote:

    I have found that a few people who talk/act destructively were better close up but most were worse.

    I don’t have much experience with those types. Guess I was referring to those that are a bit more sane (understandably a relative thing to measure).


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    Monica wrote:

    An example of something that came across to me in this manner: at some point, Kirk Cameron was discussed…Also, graphic, lewd, indecent comments – there were some I do remember –

    Wow, Miranda, I’m sorry you’ve experienced it that way. I know nothing about Kirk Cameron except that I think he’s rather a poor actor so I skipped all the comments about him.

    I’ve not experienced graphic, lewd, or indecent comments here. This is not to say that you are incorrect but I may have different definitions than you do. I have been outside the Christian community for decades and the rules are different there than here, not necessarily better/worse rules, but a different sense of propriety.

    Things are naturally more rough&tumble outside a homogenous community such as the Evangelicals, and I have noticed that people inside the community are often more thin-skinned and unable to handle criticism with aplomb.

    What I would like to know, if you are willing, is which words are considered graphic, lewd, and indecent. It’s not that I might agree/disagree but I’d like to know so I can sometimes be sensitive, if the situation requires it.


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    anon 1 wrote:

    @ ken:
    Ken, they make their living as public communicators with platforms. .would knowing you personally change the meaning of your words here? Would I be expected to agree with vague exhortations because you are a nice guy in person? I would ask you the same questions over coffee and nicks sponge.

    I understand where you are coming from (Hitler being the extreme example…do I really have to personally know him to understand the evil that surrounds his ideology), but still think there is a benefit to personally knowing someone (to some degree or another) when trying to accurately understand controversy that exists because of what they write or say.


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    @ Monica: I understand what you are saying, Monica. I know what I am about to say may not make much sense but I can assure you that I thought this out over a long period of time prior to starting the blog. My dear friend, Deb, and I talked for many years before starting this blog.

    During those years, I spent many hours, every day, visiting atheist blogs and blogs frequented by people of differing perspectives on what constitutes free and open communication. Many Christians and even other groups reject those individuals since they do not communicate in a fashion that we believe to be polite. Yet I felt a real burden to hear what these folks had to say. And I learned how to say things through the help of some of these other sites.

    I wondered if there was a way to bring Christians and people who do not communicate in the same way together in order to understand one another. And, in fact, it worked. Yes, some Christians walked away. However, some non-Christians walked in. Deb and I have received, through the years, a number of emails in which some very interesting people, some in academia, who have said this blog gave them a very different views of both God and Christians.

    Two men who still read here said that the God we discuss here is a God of interest to them. Those emails made me cry. I realize that the experiment wasn’t perfect. But one thing I know, God loves those who do not communicate in an expected fashion. And even we do not when we have been hurt.

    We have upped our game a bit but my heart is still there for those who might make people feel uncomfortable.


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    @ Victorious:

    Remember, I’m slow…so you’re saying that a believer cannot be guilty of self-righteousness?


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    ken wrote:

    Victorious wrote:

    ken wrote:
    I hope they don’t stop either, but you’ve made no mention of the dangers of spawning self-righteous attitudes along the way. I find that interesting. Would like to hear your thoughts.
    My understanding of self-righteousness is those attitudes exhibited by the unregenerate human nature. I don’t see that here. Most, from what I’ve read, are Bible-believing Christians who freely admit to their failures and weaknesses. But at the same time expect Pastors and elders to maintain the same standard that is imposed on the members of their churches and the holiness they preach from the pulpit.

    Thanks, Victorious. How are you defining self-righteousness in order to make it exclusive to the unregenerate?

    Merriam-Webster defines self-righteousness as ” having or showing a strong belief that your own actions, opinions, etc., are right and other people’s are wrong”

    Wikipedia: “Self-righteousness (also called sanctimoniousness, sententiousness, and holier-than-thou attitudes[1]) is a feeling or display of (usually smug) moral superiority[2] derived from a sense that one’s beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person.”

    ken wrote:

    Merriam-Webster defines self-righteousness as ” having or showing a strong belief that your own actions, opinions, etc., are right and other people’s are wrong”
    Wikipedia: “Self-righteousness (also called sanctimoniousness, sententiousness, and holier-than-thou attitudes[1]) is a feeling or display of (usually smug) moral superiority[2] derived from a sense that one’s beliefs, actions, or affiliations are of greater virtue than those of the average person.”

    Ken, the definitions above seem to reflect the Pharisees in scripture. Again, I don’t see that attitude here among those who post. I’ve not seen anyone exhibit a superior attitude, but rather one of compassion and determination in an effort to expose sin and injustice. Both the OT, Jesus and Paul did the same and never encouraged or implied apathy toward those who were diseased, oppressed, or abused. I think of the man on the side of the road who had been beaten by thieves. A priest and Levite both passed by and offered no help. But Jesus commended the Samaritan for taking action by showing mercy and bandaging his wounds and even paid for his care at an inn. He was the example of mercy when others looked the other way.


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    ken wrote:

    I don’t have much experience with those types. Guess I was referring to those that are a bit more sane (understandably a relative thing to measure).

    Well, I’d include Piper in the group who talk/act destructively, since he doesn’t allow women the same privileges as he himself has because of genitalia rather than talent/gifts (or is it because he has subordinated the Son in the Trinity?) And he recommends that women stay in domestic abusive situations “for a time”, in case the man stops it. And he calls down destruction on a town across the world as he grins, while mistaking the word salvation for “predestination”, with all that entails. Plus he has declared natural disasters to be God’s judgement against things such as approving gaydom. Then there’s his fierce idea that God is a God of wrath and that we humans are despicable and must do everything to bring God the glory, as if God keeps needing more and more glory handed to him or else he just won’t feel like God (or something).

    But I find him to be one of the less offensive of that bunch because he has been careful regarding extravagant use of money, as far as I can tell, and also has lived in a poor urban neighborhood in his past.


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    JeffT wrote:

    I do, however, believe that expressing anger at so-called ‘Christian leaders’ who engage in abuse or say ludicrous things is legitimate, within limits, when they refuse to enter into discussion about what they’ve done or said, delete or simply not allow any comments that question them regardless of how civilly they are presented, and/or engage in acts to silence any criticism of their public behavior.

    Yeah, that’s what drives me around the bend most quickly: people who place themselves in leadership, then pontificate to everyone on absurd rules/principles while locking the doors all around them so that they truly live in an echo chamber. It’s a profound misunderstanding of the way that human community functions best, in relationship and mutuality rather than by establishing a tower of humanity whose upper reaches are nearer to God than those lower levels where the great unwashed live. Humbug!


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    @ ken:

    “Irritation isn’t gracious, imo. Irritation can be easily conveyed through the keyboard as well. Is this a merely a cultural thing?”
    +++++++++++++++++++++

    no, irritation is common to every human being. what one does with it is cultural.

    a story from travels (all travelers have a story similar to this one):

    on a 3-week European trip many years ago, I spent a few days in Switzerland, Stayed with a friend and her family. Lovely people. In going around the city interacting here & there, the people in general seemed buttoned-up and extremely reserved. Feelings kept down under wraps. I knew I was wearing out my welcome with the mom of my friend, irritating her, but she covered it with a smile of sorts. It was uncomfortable.

    Then I took the train down to Florence. People wearing their heart on their sleeve all through the day and night. Lying in bed in the middle of the night, outside noises of loud laugher, arguing, singing. I have a feeling if I had had a friend in Florence and the mom was irritated there would have been a more direct approach. I personally prefer this.

    Neither approach to irritation was wrong or “unchristlike”. Just a reflection of a different locale.


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    @ ken: ken
    , where does that leave us then if we take that thinking its logical conclusion? How would I go about getting to know Piper personally…. so I could earn the right to judgehis very public words/behavior?

    Youseem to be asking for a special standard for the celebrities


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    Patrice wrote:

    It seems to me that any system can be (and has been) corrupted. We have found no best way to structure ourselves that can keep the hearts of some humans from grabbing power over others. But surely we can find better ways than we have tried so far?! :-/

    In my opinion the Enlightenment era humanists who founded the American experiment have come very close to just this. Perfect? No. But it’s still the best damn world system yet conceived. It restrains the worst in us as humans and yet still allows for a wide latitude of the best in us.


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    I think this thread so far has been a fine demonstration of exactly why TWW is, overall, such a positive forum. Rough around the edges occasionally, yes, but certainly not “toxic and abusive” as a certain individual (not present in this thread) described it in the brief dustup a few days ago. Most blogs would have devolved into an all-out flamewar 200+ comments ago.


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    Let me weigh in on the issue that Monica has risen. Monica if you are referring to me then my apologies. However let me also make some observations about Christian culture.

    1. Many Christians are thin skinned and easily offended. Many don’t have the love, patience, kindness, or intellectual rigor to engage with those outside their community.
    2. Many Christians want ministry to be pleasurable, fun, and most important clean. There needs to be results and needs to be quick response.
    3. Many Christians operate in their own cultures and communities and don’t engage with those on the outside. The judge the world based upon the culture inside the bubble that many live in.
    4. Many Christians want to be nice. They would rather known for being nice, than upfront or asking hard questions. Now its one thing to avoid needless conflict but its another thing to avoid it all together. I would suggest that many Christians are guilty and implicit for many of these problems that Deb and Dee raise on this blog. If Christians demanded accountability then this blog post wouldn’t even be needed.

    Unless many of the above are addressed then many Christians and churches are going to be marginal in reaching people. So an atheist swears or is crude…the sad thing is that more Christians are upset that someone is swearing and fail to realize the opportunity and searching person beneath all that.

    I learned its easier to find the bad, sensitive Christians than the good ones.


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    @ elastigirl:

    🙂 Ahhh, yes, us Italians who tell it like we see it, feel, hear it, smell it!


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    Hester wrote:

    Most blogs would have devolved into an all-out flamewar 200+ comments ago.

    True enough Hester. TWW is an island of sanity that way. Sooner or later, many of the others start blowing up each other’s Mosques so to speak.


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    Janey wrote:

    Tyndale is “substantially” owned by a private foundation. Salem is a publicly traded for-profit company. They don’t have common ownership.

    Thanks for clarifying that Janey.


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    @ elastigirl:

    I loved Florence way back in the day of my footloose and fancy free youth. Your comment made me think of how the folks there have a whole different outlook and life-ethos than Americans. Oddly enough it also made me want to revisit Joni Mitchell’s song Free Man in Paris.


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    @ Patrice: it’s a web site.


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    @ ken:

    more on irritation:

    I get the feeling you feel irritation itself is wrong, a sin. I see it as stimulus and response. if something is irritating, we are irritated by it and are irritable. it is natural and normal. we can do our best to be patient, but we all fail at times.

    I get something of an impression that perhaps your standard is perfection. that the experience of feeling irritated is a flaw. I don’t see it that way. that colossians verse is a loaded one: “let your conversation be always full of grace”. an impossible, unrealistic ideal that not even Paul or Jesus followed. Always full of grace? I can think of numerous circumstances where harsh words are needed to get a point across.

    I may very well be reading much more into your comments than is remotely accurate. I have observed many times, though, a propensity in many Christians to be intolerant of imperfection in themselves (& others?), keeping their emotions and thoughts in a vice grip of sorts. thoughts and feelings that are simply indicative of a normal healthy human being are viewed as suspect. I would expect such people to have ulcers with the pressure they put on themselves.

    i think you’re a genuinely nice person. i really don’t think Jesus gives a flying fick about when you feel irritated. I think you can relax about that one.


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    Eagle wrote:

    4. Many Christians want to be nice. They would rather known for being nice, than upfront or asking hard questions

    I agree. I wrote a little about that in a blog post up thread here

    Another problem with being too nice is that it’s usually linked with being naive, or being in denial.

    I believe one reason so many churches fall prey to things such as child sexual abusers or get fooled by abusive husbands is that Christians in America today are too concerned with being “nice” and conflict avoidance than in seeing things as they really are.

    As author Christian Paul Coughlin has put it in some of his blogs and books, Christians today are too concerned with being nice and not nearly enough with being good – and ‘nice’ and ‘good’ are not the same thing.


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    @ Monica: I think it’s important to keep in mind that processing pain, grief and all the other emotions that arise in the wake of abuse and betrayal is *not* pretty. There are psalms that express these things, as well as portions of other books in the OT. I remember being amazed and somewhat shocked when I 1st came across some of this material in my teens – it’s so raw and so brutally honest.

    I’m all for respect, civility and politeness, but I also do understand why some comments about Piper and his cronies were so raw. The commenter you mentioned has been active in this thread, so you can communicate with him directly if you want to…

    One thing I went through was being told by well-meaning people that I should put on a nice, “godly” mask after being booted and shunned. The rage and pain were with me for years, especially because even mentioning “I feel so angry!” brought reproof and insistence that I hide my pain, even from my closest friends.

    The internet is one of the few outlets for the church’s walking wounded. While you and I might not like some of the rawer expressions of anger and pain, well… far better to be honest than to keep repressing and keeping up socially acceptable appearances.

    The Bible is many things, but one thing it’s *not* is superficial when it comes to pain and suffering. Those ancient writers knew what they were doing.

    I don’t know if you’ve ever been a moderator on a forum or blog, but I have – it’s a super-tough job, and someone is always upset with you, no matter how fair you are. Given the topics covered on this site, it’s no wonder people who’ve been hurt tend to congregate here. We’ve all got our own baggage – life is hard and anything but fair when it comes to the kinds of things we all too often inflict on each other.

    And… if you think it’s rough here, I wonder what you’d make of comments on forums for people who’ve been sexually abused? That’s one place where the rubber *really* hits the road!

    None of what i’ve said here is intended as a rebuttal or attack… but as another perspective. Trusting that you will understand what i’m trying to express.

    Best,
    numo


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    @ elastigirl: very much agreed.


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    Hester wrote:

    Most blogs would have devolved into an all-out flamewar 200+ comments ago.

    We do see spammers and trolls here, of course, who work very hard to stir up contention and ill-feeling (and, of course, constantly deny doing any such thing). One of these wolves didn’t even both to keep his/her sheep’s clothing on; I refer to Wax-Jacket Wayne whose last comment was, You really hate me, don’t you, —?. I genuinely can’t remember which of the regulars this was targeted at, or I would have named them; because their behaviour remained honourable.

    But for all the highly emotive nature of the issues raised here, and Deebs’ decision resolutely to lift the lid on jealously-guarded no-go areas in church life, there remains a culture of decency that enables people to let of a lot of steam without taking the blog with them. It reminds me somewhat of the F1 engine, that powered the Saturn 5 rocket and which was legendary for its resistance to combustion instability. But I won’t bore you with the details.


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    numo wrote:

    One thing I went through was being told by well-meaning people that I should put on a nice, “godly” mask after being booted and shunned. The rage and pain were with me for years, especially because even mentioning “I feel so angry!” brought reproof and insistence that I hide my pain, even from my closest friends.

    That, in a nutshell, was our experience too. And I agree about the Psalms – many of them are shockingly un-Christ-like, especially the one Jesus shouted from the cross.


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    I actually think that some of our standards of ‘niceness’ especially in ‘christian’ dialogue act to prevent genuine communication and personal interaction and connection. It all ends up as fake fake fake, and nothing of any worth whatsoever comes out of those discussions, or ever could, given the very limiting effect of such boundaries.

    I find some of this immensely frustrating because it means that Christians are backing off from the rest of the (very needy) world because their poor little ears are too delicate to be around the bad naughty words. We need to grow a bit more spine I think, and be more concerned about the lack of love towards those around us whose experiences are more raw than ours, rather than weeding out the truly hurting with some kind of sweetness sieve. It’s all so SURFACE. I work with ‘difficult’ teenagers in a secular setting & I much prefer those who swear at me to my face, or make inappropriate remarks out loud because it gives me something to work with in actually communicating with them, rather than those who are inwardly cursing me whilst outwardly sticking to all the conventions of politeness.


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    See above link. I am curious if Dr Piper will film his next Cross promo video in Benghazi, Libya.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    In my opinion the Enlightenment era humanists who founded the American experiment have come very close…still the best damn world system yet conceived….

    I think the Constitution and Bill of Rights are the best documents ever. Our nation has had the longest run of largest middle class in human history (coinciding with rise of engine, electricity, etc and seemingly bottomless natural resources.) But since the beginning there have always been people who have run away with power, which in this country has been defined as money. So we’ve also had a long history of repeated financial crises that have ruined millions at a time and were caused, ever single time, by shenanigans.

    Put that together with 100 years of corporate propaganda (injected especially into our national media) plus the long slow demise of rules limiting the power of money, and we are now in a real pickle. There is an unholy alliance between finance, corps, and gov’t. In broader society, the median wage is 25-27K. Social services are being given to people who already work (Cf Walmart, McDonalds) because they are paid so poorly. Inside our gov’t’s NSA/military, actions have retreated so far from Bill of Rights that even basics of the Magna Carta are being ignored with impunity.

    So we need an overhaul and I am worried because we are not a country of people who love each other. Instead we exist apart because the ideas of individual primacy (also derived the Enlightenment) have been concentrated in our psyches to the point that we think it righteous to get rid of anything that we might do together for the greater good.

    Tribalism is the end result (something which I hear that Driscoll addresses in his latest infamous book). Warring tribes, ugh! Both right and left know we have huge problems and there is much overlap in diagnosis too. Yet there is a constant contempt each side for the other, and in each group there are splinters and splinters of splinters. Sometimes I feel despair.

    This is one of the reasons why places like TWW (and Julie Anne’s SSB and internet Monk, etc) encourage me. People come from many different political/social positions. Under Dee/Deb/Julie Anne/Mike’s watchful eyes and constant labor, we are talking to each other with growing affection, and learning/experimenting/playing. If it can happen here, surely it can happen elsewhere and in larger places. Right? Please? May it happen in time!

    My opinion. Waddaya think?


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    Hester wrote:

    I think this thread so far has been a fine demonstration of exactly why TWW is, overall, such a positive forum. Rough around the edges occasionally, yes, but certainly not “toxic and abusive” as a certain individual (not present in this thread) described it in the brief dustup a few days ago. Most blogs would have devolved into an all-out flamewar 200+ comments ago.

    Amen. I would add I have learned a great deal from those who have commented. Elastagirl, Eagle, Breaker, Muff Potter, Muno, M Joy, JeffT and others have really helped me process some things.

    I am almost finished with a post that articulates the need to confront evil with the ability ‘to be angry and sin not,’ the difference reaction between responses to evil done to you and evil done to others, and the reason the sword of justice is not in vain.

    Thanks, everyone!


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    Wade Burleson wrote:

    I am almost finished with a post that articulates the need to confront evil with the ability ‘to be angry and sin not,’ the difference reaction between responses to evil done to you and evil done to others, and the reason the sword of justice is not in vain.

    Looking forward to it!


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    Hester wrote:

    Most blogs would have devolved into an all-out flamewar 200+ comments ago.

    I think part of the reason it hasn’t done so, apart from our own watchful openness, is that Deb/Dee delete comments meant to be disruptive. How many on this thread alone? Thanks, you two!

    There will always be a few who arrive in a group wanting it to fail and they need to be disarmed of those intentions, (while also being aware that mere bias is not a reason to disarm). It’s a tough row to hoe, steep learning curve, but there’s no other way to create a nurturing successful group. I watched (via livestream) the initial Occupy groups attempting to progress via 100% approval on everything and it was a fiasco because they didn’t understand that some people came with purely destructive motives.

    So any of us who might start groups of our own in the future, can take along the wisdom of Deb, Dee and Guy Behind the Curtain, thus avoiding much unnecessary pain. w00t


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    Wade Burleson wrote:

    I am almost finished with a post that articulates the need to confront evil with the ability ‘to be angry and sin not,’ the difference reaction between responses to evil done to you and evil done to others, and the reason the sword of justice is not in vain.

    Wade, I’m looking forward to it! I come here to learn more than anything else, and to Deebs and all the posters here I can say that this is one of my most valued websites because I learn so much about the ways in which we need to make Christianity part of our daily lives and about the damage that is being done to others under the guise of ‘Christianity’.

    This has been a very enlightening thread thanks to you all.


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    @ anon 1:
    I have a simple rule. If it is said or acted out in public, it deserves public commentary. You don’t get to play it both ways. Even D A Carson agrees with that.


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    Patrice wrote:

    I think part of the reason it hasn’t done so, apart from our own watchful openness, is that Deb/Dee delete comments meant to be disruptive. How many on this thread alone? Thanks, you two!

    We hate, hate , hate to delete comments. It only happens when things get so out of control that we must in order to preserve some semblance of order. Direct threats, which happened this week, cannot occur, obviously.

    We let our readers know when we do not approve or when we delete comments. Now, on occasion we will get a comment posted twice. We will delete one of those and may not make a notation of that.

    Also, there are times when we get so many comments that we are overwhelmed and may miss something important. You all send us emails to give us a heads up on something we missed. We really appreciate it.

    I learn so much from the comments. It causes me to grow every time I read here. This blog is you, not us. It always has been. I know what I think. I get bored with my thoughts. It is a blessing to me to hear what all of you think.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    I find some of this immensely frustrating because it means that Christians are backing off from the rest of the (very needy) world because their poor little ears are too delicate to be around the bad naughty words.

    I came to the same understanding when visiting blogs written by those who were very different than me. With each of those people, I clearly saw those who are deeply love by their Creator. I refused to let the words cloud that for me. Sometimes it was hard. I really hated being called foul names. But, I kept telling myself to preservere beyond the external.To love that person under the words that are used to express pain or to keep people out.

    Over time, I became, for the most part, immune to the words and could focus in on the important stuff in that individual’s life. So many people use words to isolate themselves from pain or to protect themselves from another Christian who might hurt them.

    Please forgive me when it appears that I encourage the roughness. I don’t. I just want to find the person that is in there.


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    @ dee:
    Yes, and that’s why I thank you, because I know the comments you delete are done reluctantly and with careful thought, even to offering future involvement if people will focus on the disagreement underneath their attacks. Your goals for the group are honorable and needed, and that you always keep them in front of you is just plain dear.

    I also appreciate you letting us know when you’ve deleted comments. Transparency is a treasure, especially since there’s so little of it in our society these days.

    Good on you. And blessings. And get enough breaks from it, too, please. It’s a hard job!


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    dee wrote:

    So many people use words to isolate themselves from pain or to protect themselves from another Christian who might hurt them.

    Profound…intentional distancing by those who perceive themselves as unlovable because of constant conditioning.


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    Patrice wrote:

    Tribalism is the end result (something which I hear that Driscoll addresses in his latest infamous book).

    Indeed, I have every confidence that Fiscal will eloquently denounce the tribalism he practices! To give what credit is due, he knows how to be seen to say the right things on occasion.

    Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I really am hopeful about the “rise” (not an ideal term, because I don’t think we really want to rise anywhere, but it’ll do) of those who openly declare ourselves “nones”. There are no risk-free ways to approach the narrow gate to the steep and narrow path Jesus talked about, and nones can easily become isolated and ineffectual. But there is great potential freedom for the Holy Spirit himself to lead and build. And because we don’t have the option of building denominational walls to isolate ourselves, we can’t be tempted to do it.

    There’s a big community of believers out here who are digging into some important practical theology.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    I have every confidence that Fiscal will eloquently denounce the tribalism he practices! To give what credit is due, he knows how to be seen to say the right things on occasion.

    Yeah, I know right? Lol He is great at finding the pulse. Too bad he has no idea what to do once he’s found it, except revert and regress.

    I have hopes for “nones” too. They know something is very wrong, they have decided it is too awry to make inroads and I have hopes that they’ll figure it out amongst each other. I know bunches of them, most of them in their 20s (via daughter). Do you have any links to those you see digging into some important practical theology, if they are online? I could use a good dose of the positive.

    It’s comforting to remember that the Holy Spirit will always be here, and that there will always be people, somewhere, who are with Him/Her as S/He is within them, walking the good path of truth and love.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Patrice wrote:

    Tribalism is the end result (something which I hear that Driscoll addresses in his latest infamous book).

    Indeed, I have every confidence that Fiscal will eloquently denounce the tribalism he practices! To give what credit is due, he knows how to be seen to say the right things on occasion.

    This is what I don’t get about his newest book. I’ve heard he speaks agains tribalism in it, yet he has fervently practiced it. I find it hypocritical that he now writes against it, when up to now he has propogated it. So now he wants people to pay money to buy a book where he speaks against it. If he thinks what he has practiced and taught others to practice is wrong, then why doesn’t he make a public apology for it and say he is no longer going down that road? Instead he wants people to by his book!? What is all this really about? I won’t be trusting him anytime soon, nor buying his books. I’ll stick to the words that were written long ago 🙂


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    anon 1 wrote:

    @ ken: ken
    , where does that leave us then if we take that thinking its logical conclusion? How would I go about getting to know Piper personally…. so I could earn the right to judgehis very public words/behavior?
    Youseem to be asking for a special standard for the celebrities

    Not sure. Guess I’m not seeing Piper as far out on the spectrum of toxicity as many do around here and am willing to give him some slack in some areas like you mentioned (making payroll). I’m willing to bet that if you were to spend some time with him personally and found out what he actually did with his $, then you would have less harsh words for him (to some degree).

  359. Pingback: John Piper and Tall Buildings | Escape from Mars


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    @ elastigirl:

    Thanks for your thoughts on irritation – I will keep pondering it, but at this point I still see my tendency to become irritated as a fleshly, sinful response that needs to be mortified. The antidote is the constant reminder of God’s grace in Christ towards me. Are there times when acting on irritation is godly? Probably.


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    Dee, I don’t know where to post this, so I will try here. We do have a voice to impact Mark Driscoll’s alleged plagiarism. I have gone to Amazon book’s review page on Driscoll’s newest book. I gave it a one starred-rating and commented on the specific allegations of Driscoll allegedly stealing 14 pages from Dr. Peter Jone’s book, titled “One or Two”. People often look at ratings before making a purchase. I encourage everyone to go to the cite and make their own review. Numbers do count, and hitting them in the pocket-book does make them pay attention. Thanks for all you do! Ann. Also my real name, Debbie, is what my posting is under if you want to find it.


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    @ ken: OK… do you ever get cranky and irritable when you’re tired, hungry or sick?

    It’s a natural response to many things, and not (imo) inherently sinful. Snapping at people, being rude with them as a result of feeling irritable (etc.) is another thing, though also an understandable result.

    Not to undermine what either you or elastigirl are saying, but I bet a lot of irritability would disappear if Americans were more serious about dealing with our collective sleep deprivation.


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    numo wrote:

    One thing I went through was being told by well-meaning people that I should put on a nice, “godly” mask after being booted and shunned. The rage and pain were with me for years, especially because even mentioning “I feel so angry!” brought reproof and insistence that I hide my pain, even from my closest friends.

    Yep, that is familiar.

    That sounds like the type of things my mother (who was a Christian) used to tell me, from the time I was bullied as a kid to being harassed by adults as an adult at jobs.

    I was asked to stifle the anger, to just sit there and take trash off people, no matter how rude or mean they were. A lifetime of that really messed me up.

    I would also run into other Christians who would lecture me likewise.

    The moment I’d express anger or sadness over some event in my life, I was either nicely lectured, or sternly lectured, to just suck it up and put on a happy face, or guilt tripped or shamed about it (i.e., “Remember, no matter how bad you have it, there are starving orphans in Africa who have it way worse. So shut up about you”).

    There are some Christians who are so uncomfortable with someone being straight forward (yet polite) – not sugar coating everything – that they mistake being forthright with being rude or mean.

    I’ve had that happen to me a few times, since I’ve learned it’s okay to speak up and defend myself, or challenge someone on something.

    I also agreed with Beaker’s post:

    I actually think that some of our standards of ‘niceness’ especially in ‘christian’ dialogue act to prevent genuine communication and personal interaction and connection.

    I find some of this immensely frustrating because it means that Christians are backing off from the rest of the (very needy) world because their poor little ears are too delicate to be around the bad naughty words.

    Sometimes I think you have to look past how someone is expressing themselves to see what it is they’re really upset about.

    Sometimes people do cuss a lot if they have been deeply wounded or hurt.

    I’ve exchanged posts with people over the years (even Christians) here and elsewhere who used prim and proper language, but who were still very condescending or contemptuous in tone.

    That actually annoys me a little bit more than dealing with the obvious hot head who yells profanities and vulgarities.

    (Not that I enjoy either one, but, IMO, it’s at least more honest, and you can sometime make amends easier.)

    I’ve never been one to use a lot of filthy language and would ask those around me to please curb it – I have a sister who drops the “F” bomb every third sentence – but I find as I get older and have issues with Christianity, crude language doesn’t bother me as much as it used to.

    It also doesn’t hurt that although my mother and her mother (my grandmother) were very devout Christians, there was some bawdy humor from that side of the family.

    Nothing too bad, or nothing on the level of Mark Driscoll crudity – but enough I guess I don’t get as upset or shocked over ribald commentary as some Christians.


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    Bridget wrote:

    This is what I don’t get about his newest book. I’ve heard he speaks agains tribalism in it, yet he has fervently practiced it. I find it hypocritical that he now writes against it, when up to now he has propogated it.

    You might want to listen to Chris Rosebrough’s podcasts where he discusses Driscoll, because in 2 or 3 shows, he’s mentioned more examples of Driscoll’s hypocrisy.

    In the last few months, he’s done podcasts mentioning Driscoll’s hypocrisy, so if you do a search for “Mark Driscoll” on Rosebrough’s blog (Fighting For The Faith), you might want to stick to 2013, in brodcasts from around Oct 2013 to the present.

    Driscoll mentions on Fighting for the Faith

    I cannot remember the exact shows where he talks about Driscoll in general as opposed to hypocrisy specifically, but it might be under one of these headings:

    DECEMBER 02, 2013
    New Evidence Suggests Plagiarism In 4 Of Driscoll’s Books

    NOVEMBER 21, 2013
    Allegations That Mark Driscoll Plagiarized Dr. Peter Jones


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    numo wrote:

    @ ken: OK… do you ever get cranky and irritable when you’re tired, hungry or sick?
    It’s a natural response to many things, and not (imo) inherently sinful. Snapping at people, being rude with them as a result of feeling irritable (etc.) is another thing, though also an understandable result.
    Not to undermine what either you or elastigirl are saying, but I bet a lot of irritability would disappear if Americans were more serious about dealing with our collective sleep deprivation.

    Sure, I can relate to physiological causes of irritability as my daughter and I became chronically ill in the late 1990’s with over three dozen symptoms from the toes to the brain and everywhere inbetween. Over a dozen different docs and a ton of money out of pocket. Lost over 8 months of work in the first year (self-employed, wife homeschooled). Still affects me and my daughter today in many ways. Have you ever watched “Under our Skin”? Good flick.

    Contrary to what most have to say about him, some of Piper’s writings helped me develop a view of our illness that helped curb the tendency towards irritability, depression and mental illness. Have spoken with people who called me from all over the globe about their symptoms and found out many had to resort to medication to keep them from being suicidal, etc. I’m thankful God’s grace kept me from going there.


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    dee wrote:

    Beakerj wrote:

    I find some of this immensely frustrating because it means that Christians are backing off from the rest of the (very needy) world because their poor little ears are too delicate to be around the bad naughty words.

    I came to the same understanding when visiting blogs written by those who were very different than me. With each of those people, I clearly saw those who are deeply love by their Creator. I refused to let the words cloud that for me. Sometimes it was hard. I really hated being called foul names. But, I kept telling myself to preservere beyond the external.To love that person under the words that are used to express pain or to keep people out.

    Over time, I became, for the most part, immune to the words and could focus in on the important stuff in that individual’s life. So many people use words to isolate themselves from pain or to protect themselves from another Christian who might hurt them.

    Please forgive me when it appears that I encourage the roughness. I don’t. I just want to find the person that is in there.

    Dee- you encourage honesty. Roughness is occasionally a side effect of that, just as fakeness is a side effect of encouraging niceness. So be it.
    So much of what Christian culture seems to offer is an anaemic oppressive version of Victorian properness & prudishness rather than truth & goodness. Can’t stomach it myself.


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    Patrice wrote:

    Do you have any links to those you see digging into some important practical theology, if they are online? I could use a good dose of the positive.

    I’m sure there are many more – indeed, TWW is one – but the point behind my own blog was to record my attempts to develop a theology of church for nones. I’m planning to be a lot more disciplined about posting in 2014 than I have been hitherto! Plus, as several comments * on TWW will testify, my blog is so brilliant it could literally change the world.

    * To be scrupulously fair, they were all written by me


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    @ Daisy:

    It’s not just Fiscal, to be fair, but he did come into ministry very young and stopped submitting to anyone else at roughly the same age.

    The best observation I’ve come across on this style of religion was by Molly Worthen in her article Who would Jesus smack down?, in the New York Times magazine

    At one suburban campus that I visited, a huge yellow cross dominated center stage — until the projection screen unfurled and Fiscal’s face blocked the cross from view. Fiscal’s New Calvinism underscores a curious fact: the doctrine of total human depravity has always had a funny way of emboldening, rather than humbling, its adherents.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    At one suburban campus that I visited, a huge yellow cross dominated center stage — until the projection screen unfurled and Fiscal’s face blocked the cross from view.

    Big Brother on the Telescreens all over Oceania…


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    Beakerj wrote:

    I work with ‘difficult’ teenagers in a secular setting & I much prefer those who swear at me to my face, or make inappropriate remarks out loud because it gives me something to work with in actually communicating with them, rather than those who are inwardly cursing me whilst outwardly sticking to all the conventions of politeness.

    I grew up with a sociopath who was ALWAYS Oh-So-POLITE. To me politeness = sociopath, no exceptions.

    Though my age, profession, and income should put me solidly in the Yuppie pool, I hang out with redneck types. If a redneck has a beef with you, he’ll punch you right in the face; not smile sweetly to your face then call his lawyer behind your back to ruin you with lawsuits.


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    @ numo:

    “but I bet a lot of irritability would disappear if Americans were more serious about dealing with our collective sleep deprivation.”
    +++++++++++++++

    if this conversation is still going (I’ve sure enjoyed it) — yes, very true. also the inability to relax (as well as the lack of recognition of its necessity).

    i’m certain that practitioners of eastern traditions (meditation & the like) have skills that many westerners know nothing of which are entirely life-giving and contribute to character at its best (& to all one’s skillsets, including social).


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    @ ken:

    ken — wow. i’m sure you’ve walked a unique path through that illness. i’m sure it was very hard. i expect you have found some treasure, though, also unique to you.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Well, then, over the next week, I’ll be heading over to your blog for a good look-see. I’ll be expecting at least as much good humor, and also the broad brush of a new structure for living in a post-churchification era. Also, some bril observations on how to take down (Christianly, of course) the neo-lib/neo-con system that is squeezing the globe, since you will be literally changing the world. (Can I come too?)


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    @ elastigirl:

    thanks, yes – gives one much needed perspective.


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    Victorious wrote:

    Again, I don’t see that attitude here among those who post. I’ve not seen anyone exhibit a superior attitude, but rather one of compassion and determination in an effort to expose sin and injustice

    I’ve so enjoyed your thoughts you’ve often brought to the table in the past. How would you categorize a parody that is designed to mock and belittle? Those have often been supported here. How would they contribute towards the goal of change in the very people they mock?


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    Beakerj wrote:

    I much prefer those who swear at me to my face, or make inappropriate remarks out loud because it gives me something to work with in actually communicating with them, rather than those who are inwardly cursing me whilst outwardly sticking to all the conventions of politeness.

    I agree – you can’t have a dialogue with someone unless you can understand where they are coming from, which at times involves them expressing their experiences and feelings in harsh language.

    The guys that really give me the creeps are the ones who preach with a smile on their face seemingly politely talking about those who disagree with them when you can just feel that they would really rather torture them into submission.

    The fascist model of church leadership we see spreading today is putting Delores Umbridges into pulpits across the country.


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    @ Patrice:

    I may have to work at introducing some humour (though, that said, I think humour works better in the context of a conversation than a post as such).

    You and yours would be more than welcome to come along! It would certainly help ensure I posted stuff that was at least half useful, and not just me pontificating about stuff I haven’t done yet.


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    @ ken:
    Ken, I have rheumatoid arthritis and when I was put on biologics (which shut down part of the immune system), latent Lyme and Epstein-Barr grew out of control. Took a looonggg time to push them back and they still haunt.

    It’s fascinating to me that you found Piper’s writings helpful. What did he say that was useful for you? I’ve found his writings to be too harsh for comfort/understanding (they echo a childhood spent inside Calvinism).


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    ken wrote:

    How would you categorize a parody that is designed to mock and belittle?

    I know you trust Victorious and asked him/her so you may disregard my comments since you don’t know me for Eve.

    But if asked, here is what I would say. It is a form of extreme sarcasm.
    and…

    “Sarcasm: the last refuge of modest and chaste-souled people when the privacy of their souls are coarsely and intrusively invaded.”
    –Fyodor Dostoevsky

    When you come to places like this, you are dealing with a lot of collective pain over the terrible abuses in the Evangelical movement (passed off as ministry and furthering the gospel and even the very hearts and commands of Jesus).

    There is much muck and mire to work through. Different methods are useful at different stages of this messy, detangling process.

    Humor, both dark and light, and all that lies in between, is one of those methods. Yes, it is off-putting for those not ready for that method. But it can be very effective for some. Especially for those who have hit a wall or a snag and must push through.


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    @ ken:

    Ken, Why do you keep avoiding giving specific examples? Perhaps not everyone agrees on what is mocking Or if parody is a sin. So please give some specific examples by cutting-and-pasting comments that show what you are referring to. Thanks


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    You want to know the irony of Mandela and his love for communism which is well known to many of us history lovers? Apartied came from Dutch Calvinists. The “Christians” who colonized. I agree with Bridget, context please. Sometimes Christians are their own worst enemy.


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    Whoops, hit the “Post Comment” button too fast.

    Anon1, thank you for bringing up this very important point about the role of the Dutch Reformed church in the development of South Africa’s apartheid system. Am sure Estelle could comment on this as well.

    Rest in Peace, Madiba.


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    @ Patrice:

    Interesting about your health issues. Had to look up EBV as I wasn’t familiar with it. I suppose you’re on a pretty radical diet like I am?

    Piper’s books Desiring God and Future Grace helped me in responding to the unwanted illnesses, abuse, rejection and indifference from those in our immediate family and body of Christ. Have you read either?

    Came from a grade school that basically taught the worm theology, so seeing how grace is much more than being rescued from what I deserve – that it’s the power in Christ to be transformed in this life through/in/because of my circumstances, and the means that will make everything subject to is kingship. I can look back and see Him at work in how he graced me to view all those evil things as a gift, and it kept me from becoming a slave to bitterness and anger.

    John Reisinger was also very helpful to me. I have much gratitude for him.

    Also Piper’s ideas that the magnification of God is related to my being satisfied in him helped me a great deal with long-term sin in my life. I actually starting begging God to give me new desires and started seeing a noticeable progression of what was truly satisfying, and the journey continues…..


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    @ Mara:

    Thanks for the thoughts! Part of me sees what you’re saying. Will have to chew on it.


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    @ anon 1:

    I think I gave you two, and realize you may not agree with either. I know it sounds like an excuse, but for me to go back over the year’s time I’ve been reading and re-read the various postings is asking a lot, but if I see one I will reference it.


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    Muff Potter wrote:

    It restrains the worst in us as humans and yet still allows for a wide latitude of the best in us.

    Agreed MP.

    Patrice wrote:

    So we need an overhaul and I am worried because we are not a country of people who love each other. Instead we exist apart because the ideas of individual primacy (also derived the Enlightenment) have been concentrated in our psyches to the point that we think it righteous to get rid of anything that we might do together for the greater good.

    Also agreed strongly, Patrice. And back on the topic of Mandela, I think the response to his death from the U.S. political right illustrates this point exactly.

    Back in the 1980s our government (and that of the U.K.) viewed the struggle in South Africa strictly through the lens of the greater Cold War global chess game. The apartheid regime WAS fighting – real, honest to God shooting matches – Soviet proxy governments and Cuban troops on multiple fronts in Africa (Angola, Mozambique).

    Cold War machinations countering the Soviets were the ultimate strategy driving U.S. policy, not human rights nor justice in the face of a repressive violent apartheid regime.

    Just as the “Global War on Terror” is the ultimate strategy driving U.S. policy today, as opposed to human rights, despite lots of pretty rhetoric. The end result? Mixed messages about what America is and what our nation stands for of the very worst kind. But I digress.

    Bottom line is that it would seem that Mandela was on the right side of history after all, demonstrating mercy, reconciliation, and justice (albeit imperfect as with any human endeavour) toward his enemies that has been embraced by South Africans and the world. Those Cold War calculations seem so small, irrelevant and distant, don’t they?

    Back to the point of this thread – the Piper video.

    I am continually dumbfounded by Piper’s pronunciations, and that anyone (myself included foremost) ever gave this man the least attention.

    Unbelievably inappropriate images and inflammatory language as noted by others, particularly in light of the suffering of 9/11. I agree it has the potential to set back Christians of all stripes in the UAE to simply and quietly practice and live their faith.

    Hey John Piper, when did you become Supreme Judge of Who Is and Is Not Sinful? Hmmmmm? Argh.

    TW, do keep us up to speed if there is any local fallout from these recent evangelical jokers visiting Dubai. Sheesh.


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    @ ken:
    So What you have been referring to on this thread is not in the article or in the threadcommentsat all? I’m afraid I missed your specific reference in this thread. When I say specific I mean specific. I don’t do vague well.


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    @ anon 1:

    Yes, my initial concern was that this thread was going to end up having comments like other threads in the forum. I like specifics too, but headaches in the past week have prohibited me from a lot of chair time in front of the screen.


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    Mara wrote:

    ken wrote:
    How would you categorize a parody that is designed to mock and belittle?
    I know you trust Victorious and asked him/her so you may disregard my comments since you don’t know me for Eve.
    But if asked, here is what I would say. It is a form of extreme sarcasm.
    and…
    “Sarcasm: the last refuge of modest and chaste-souled people when the privacy of their souls are coarsely and intrusively invaded.”
    –Fyodor Dostoevsky
    When you come to places like this, you are dealing with a lot of collective pain over the terrible abuses in the Evangelical movement (passed off as ministry and furthering the gospel and even the very hearts and commands of Jesus).
    There is much muck and mire to work through. Different methods are useful at different stages of this messy, detangling process.
    Humor, both dark and light, and all that lies in between, is one of those methods. Yes, it is off-putting for those not ready for that method. But it can be very effective for some. Especially for those who have hit a wall or a snag and must push through.

    In theory, TWW could have separate forums for posters who need to vent in various fashions – one section where you could custom order posters with faces and a target superimposed on them so you could take your vengeance out on your abuser with a firearm, another for sarcastic poems and parodies for mockery and laughter, another for venting all the vile and vulgar language you could muster, etc..

    I understand people heal in different manners, but my concern is when those manners breed attitudes and actions that are in direct opposition to the goal – the preeminence of Christ in all things. I don’t have all the answers and understand everyone sees things of this nature differently.

    In fact, just participating and interacting here (much more than I ever have…this is a lot of work!) has helped me understand a bit more of the tension that exists with Dee and Deb’s “experiment” in wanting both those who are loyal to Christ and those who are not to feel comfortable in posting. So, I am vowing to pray for them each time I log onto this site, that they would be full of wisdom in their decisions they face.


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    ken wrote:

    I understand people heal in different manners, but my concern is when those manners breed attitudes and actions that are in direct opposition to the goal – the preeminence of Christ in all things.

    Aren’t we to imitate Christ?
    Here’s how he showed anger:
    Threats – Matt 25
    Name-calling – Matt 23
    Warnings – Matt 23
    Physical – John 2
    Insults – Mark 7

    In fact, I think most of the people on this board are far more gentle than Jesus was. What’s a little snark?


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    ken wrote:

    I understand people heal in different manners, but my concern is when those manners breed attitudes and actions that are in direct opposition to the goal – the preeminence of Christ in all things.

    At the risk of seeming pushy, I really need to understand this statement. This is a direct request and I would like answer.

    You are obviously saying that there are people who here who do not show “the preeminence of Christ” in all things. I am no expert on keeping Christ preeminent in my life. In fact, my guess is that I fail on a minute by minute basis. So, I admit my failing and that is why I am so reliant on the radical grace of Jesus in my life.

    However, it seem like you have experience in this area since you want to let everyone else, who is not keeping Christ preeminent in their lives, to be more like who? You, perhaps? So, I need you to get specific if you want to help us achieve such a stature.

    How do you, on a minute by minute basis keep Christ preeminent in our life? Could you give us examples of others who have done so and tell us how you know that they do so? Most importantly, do you ever feel like you need to “cook the books” about yourself in order to feel that you keep Christ preeminent?

    Again, could you give us your criteria for keeping Christ preeminent in our lives and then the criteria by which you judge folks? I am dead serious about this question and would like you to answer it before you continue.


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    I am curious if it is keeping Christ preeminent by teaching wife to take abuse for a season. Or by teaching women that they should view their husband as their leader even though he asked her to be a part of a threesome? There are plenty more where that came from but I would not call that keeping Christ preeminently


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    Here’s the infamous Piper video: eaandfaith.blogspot.com/2009/09/john-pipers-ignorance-is-killing.html


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    To me politeness = sociopath, no exceptions.

    Just be aware that it’s not true for everyone you meet.

    If you read my posts above, my mother very much ingrained in my to be super, super nice to other people no matter how shabby they treated me, and no matter I became. And I’m not a sociopath 🙂 (I was codependent, an introvert, and very shy.)


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    @ Daisy:

    I meant, ‘and no matter angry I became.’

    So I was polite, nice, and very sweet, even if someone was being horrible to me.


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    @ ken:

    It’s just the nature of the web that people get ticked off and snipe at each other on occasion. It’s not a big deal

    As for videos that mock – some people have a sense of humor that is different from yours, doesn’t make it wrong or bad or anything.


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    @ ken:

    You could do what I do, and either…
    scroll past comments of people who disturb you without reading their comments (I do that on occasion), or,
    duck out of a thread if it gets too heated (I do that one, too).


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    When “the least of these brothers of mine [Jesus]” are given permission to speak out, or even just be themselves after years in a religious setting that imprisoned them, Christ is pre-eminent.


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    @ Rafiki:

    Again, Mandela turned his back on communism, very explicitly and forcefully. If you insist that he could not change, then you cannot have changed from unbeliever to believer either. Get over your hatred of a successful, respected black leader who went where he could to get the support he needed, when the USA was in bed with apartheid. BTW, the Eisenhower administration pushed Ho Chi Minh into the arms of the communists by supporting the suppression by the French in colonial SE Asia, when Ho Chi Minh wanted to come to the U.S. seeking diplomatic help to get the French to end their colonialism. The U.S. and its right wing fanatics are responsible for many, many of the anti-colonialists going to the USSR and other “communist” (not really, more “state capitalists”) than anything else, b/c the U.S. supported the repressive colonial regimes and right wing dictators. Cuba, central America, SE Asia, Africa — pick a so called communist sympathizer and I can show you that they were pushed away by the U.S. b/c U.S. corporations had “interests” protected by the dictators.


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    @ An Attorney:

    Ho Chi Minh and Castro were always Communists. They did not “go communist” after being snubbed by the US. And yes, the USSR was communist.


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    @ Nicholas:
    Your comment demonstrates that you were educated by those who taught the U.S. party line on these issues. Castro became a communist b/c the U.S. had installed a right wing dictator in Cuba and helped to keep him in power to support the financial interests of U.S. corporations.

    BTW, no one is born a communist. They make a choice at some point in their life. If the only path to freedom means opposing a right-wing governed country that talks out of both sides of their mouth while supporting every pro-business dictator, where do you expect those who value freedom and justice to go for support.

    And the Soviet Union was not truly communist, it was state capitalism, and dictatorship, a supposed interim before the dissolution of government would occur, and, of course, never could b/c dictatorships never give up their power except at the point of a gun.

    Your view of the history is so naive I am stunned.


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    @ An Attorney:

    The naivety is yours, my friend. Every attempt to implement Marx’s ideas has resulted in dictatorship. The problem is the ideology itself.

    Do you support “true communism?” Do you think the current government of Cuba is a dictatorship? Are right-wing dictators worse than left-wing dictators? Do you actually consider Fidel Castro and other Marxists as people “who value freedom and justice?”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I grew up with a sociopath who was ALWAYS Oh-So-POLITE. To me politeness = sociopath, no exceptions.

    Wow, what a statement… I really dislike labeling like that but I am having a very difficult time finding any reason why you are wrong on the that opinion. When I think of some of the nicest people I know when I have pushed there sociaopathic tendency buttons still really do maintain an eery politeness about them. Even some of the nicest ladies at church that I felt were controlling and only others who never challenge them do not see what I see. They are the ones that ask you nicely if you would like to sit over here or there. You say no thank you, they nicely start insisting, they could actually physically be having you held down into the chair of their choice all the while sweetly smiling and talking about Jesus.
    Daisy, I agree that you are not a sociopath, you are not sickeningly polite here on the blog.


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    ken wrote:

    so you could take your vengeance out on your abuser with a firearm, another for sarcastic poems and parodies for mockery and laughter, another for venting all the vile and vulgar language you could muster, etc..

    You have missed the entire point.

    It takes time to disentangle oneself from an abusive situation AND ALL of the repercussions, aftershocks and thought patterns of having been subject to those who claim to speak for God and who used our desire to please Him against us for their benefit.

    It is not vengeance. It is and on-going process of escape, cutting of the ties that bind. AND it is a warning to others against these spiritual death traps, through humor, parody, sarcasm, and showing how ridiculous these cults are by going to the end of that ridiculousness.

    Smiling and keeping things sweet and walking on eggshells for fear of not keeping Christ ‘preeminent’ (whatever the heck that means) will not make the points that need to be made in the fight against sociopaths in the pulpits.


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    ken wrote:

    grace is much more than being rescued from what I deserve – that it’s the power in Christ to be transformed in this life through/in/because of my circumstances, and the means that will make everything subject to is kingship. I can look back and see Him at work in how he graced me to view all those evil things as a gift….

    Then do you see your (and your child’s) suffering as necessary to make you both into the persons God wants you to be? Joni Eareckson Tada sees it that way. I listened to her talk (online vid) at a recent conference and I cried.

    I just don’t agree with that view. I see suffering as part of the ongoing brokenness in this world. I cannot see that what many people suffer (sometimes literally mind/soul/body breaking) as necessary for their sanctification and/or to make them useful to God in their later lives. And certainly it is not “sharing in the sufferings of Christ” because Jesus was the only one who could do the job of suffering-for-a-good-reason, and it was well done and is finished.

    Thus I don’t see the sufferings in my life as gifts. I find them to be the opposite, evil that destroyed much of me (my physical issues are the end consequences of long-term abuse).

    But I completely agree with you that grace is more than the rescue of salvation. Grace is God remaining with us no matter what happens: loving us, standing with us, holding us, reminding us that the Good will eventually triumph.

    I also agree that being with God in all the small ways of our days is the most dear and treasured gift that anyone could be given (and more amazing, free to all who want it). But I could have received these gifts without all the suffering; in fact, for a long time, the suffering kept me from them.

    There is no work that I might yet do in the latter days of my life that could possibly make the evil “worth having experienced”. I expect/hope that in the New Earth, I will be able to use some of the terrible lessons I’ve had to learn here because, as I think we both agree, God is not wasteful of anything.

    Some Christians have said to me, “Well, now you have the lessons/experience to help others who are going through what you went through.” And that is true, at least in the bit I can do with my poor health. But in saying this, they also meant that being helpful to others was the reason I had to suffer. Which is patently absurd, not least in their dismissal of the greater part of my experience/reality.

    No, I haven’t read either Piper’s or Reisinger’s writings. These men think I am second-class so it’s hard for me to taken them seriously. Plus, they tend to the wrathful God even though they modify it more than the Calvinism of my childhood; I just can’t get on board with any of it.

    Yes, I have a radical diet. No fun to institute, right? But over time, it’s ok, and it makes a difference, so completely worth it!


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    Patti wrote:

    Daisy, I agree that you are not a sociopath, you are not sickeningly polite here on the blog.

    I did used to be very, very, extremely polite and sweet, but I’ve had to unlearn that in the last 2 – 3 years, as I mentioned on some other thread here.

    My Mom raised me to believe that being a good Christian girl meant forever being super, super sweet and sugary nice, no matter what.

    I had to learn via life experience and from reading books the last couple of years that you can be polite to people within reason, but you do not have to be a doormat.

    That has been a revelation for me. 🙂 It makes life ten times easier, too.


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    ken wrote:

    I like specifics too, but headaches in the past week have prohibited me from a lot of chair time in front of the screen.

    Ken, I’ve found it hugely freeing to put my desktop computer on a hospital bed table and then I can be horizontal on the couch while also entertaining myself.


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    @ ken: you’ve really been through it, and I hope you and your daughter are much, much better now.


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    @ Patrice:

    I think I share a lot of the same views you mentioned in your post.

    I’ve never understood the Christian habit of looking at suffering as being some kind of great, welcomed thing because it’s supposed to be of benefit to you, to teach you a lesson.

    I guess some Christians adopt that attitude because it makes their suffering seem to have a purpose, which in turn, makes it easier to cope with.

    I also think suffering in some ways can make a person less compassionate, though.

    For instance, after my Mom died, and I turned to other Christians for support, but I got cliches, unwanted advice, and some cranky comments.

    That made me less sympathetic to other people, in some ways, since I was not shown compassion at a time of severe difficulty.


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    @ ken:

    That’s a good question. I have often wondered if it was godly or not that Paul cast a demon out of a slave girl because the Bible only records that he did it out of irritation. It landed him in jail.


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    @ Nicholas: you’re very certain of what you say, but An Attorney has an extremely good grasp of the facts in this case.


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    +1, Mara.@ Mara:


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    @ Daisy: women are, in general, still expected to be “nice” rather than direct and assertive. Which is one reason our lovely blog queens get a lot of heat for their posts…


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    @ numo:

    That the USSR wasn’t “truly communist?” That, of course, is delusional. It is also the propaganda of modern Marxists. And if no Communist regime in history was “truly communist,” then “true communism” is meaningless. And I find any attempts to defend Communism or Communists to be abhorrent.


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    @ Daisy: i’ve had to learn to stand up for myself. It’s something few girls are encouraged to do, even today.


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    @ numo:

    Yep, I know. There is still a lot of pressure in the church, and out, for women to be sugary nice all the times. I have been down that sugary sweet path. I lived it ever since I was a kid.

    You can get blow back from people for not sticking to the expected gender role path of being ‘Miss Sugar,’ but now that I’ve thrown that yoke off, I am a billion times more happy, and less afraid of people now than I was before, because I know it’s okay to stand up to them if they are rude or mean or whatever.

    Here’s a commercial that shows how men and women are treated differently for being assertive (and for other things):
    Labels Against Women


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    .@ Nicholas: I didn’t mean to imply that, though true communism is *not* what was practiced there, any more than it is in China.

    An Attorney is correct about Ho Chi Minh – and given how bad the post-colonial S. Vietnamese government was – how thoroughly corrupt – it’s no wonder the N. Vietnamese won the war. We shored up an incredibly crooked regime there in order toto protect our own financial interests?, just as we did in Iran by overthrowing a democratically selected government and then placing a tinpot dictator on the throne (Shah Reza Pahlavi). he was our directest route to their oil and American companies gaining a controlling interest in the acquisitiacquisition and sale of Iranian oil.

    If you don’t mind my saying so, padawan, you have much to learn… spend some time reading Russian and Soviet history and some thing will become clearer.


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    @ numo: gah! I shouldn’t be using an Android keyboard for this.


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    @ Daisy: in many churches, yes, but by no means all. But i’m speaking of society as a whole, where some things have changed and some *really* haven’t.


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    @ numo:

    What’s interesting is that although from the time I was a very young girl I was shy, insecure and quiet, I none- the- less was willing to stand up for myself, if someone bullied me really bad.

    I did stand up for myself when bullied a few times before I got to around age nine or ten.

    However, as I got older (around 9, 10) and went to my mother for guidance on how to handle the bullies, she began giving me the message that it was wrong, un Ladylike, or un Christian, to stand up to bullies, no matter how mean they were being.

    I was expected to be totally empathetic to bullies, to let them off the hook, because I was supposed to imagine they came from horrible families, or whatever. I never did see how that excused their bullying, or how it was relevant.

    (It never crossed Mom’s mind that some people are mean because they enjoy it, not because they came from bad families.)

    My mom tended to show more compassion to the bullies that were punching me in the face daily, or calling me names, than she did me! I never understood that.

    I mean, she would hug me if I came home crying, but at the end of the day, she would coach me to just sit there and take harassment from people, even as an adult.

    (I didn’t realize as an adult I could make my own choices, so I still listened to her about this stuff.)

    Yes, in her own way my Mom loved me, but she had misplaced loyalties in bullying incidents, which I never started, by the way. I was so afraid of people I went out of my way to avoid ticking them off. I got picked on anyhow.

    It’s not just my Mother who does this, other females are the same way.

    I remember after being bullied by a boy in my class for four days straight in eighth grade, I screamed at him one day to “back off and leave me alone.”

    My teacher over heard me, and asked to see me alone in the hall.

    Once in the hall, she said, “I know he’s been picking on you all week.”
    -okay, she knew but did nothing to stop him!

    She pleaded with me not to get him into trouble. Why? Because his brother brought a gun to school two years prior and shot himself in the head and died.

    I’m sorry the guy’s brother was gone, but to this day, that attitude bothers me: I was supposed to endure verbal abuse off some bully because of some crisis in his family life two years prior.

    A lot of women do that; they think you, a female, should always, and automatically, excuse bad behavior, or be nurturing and loving to a bully because the bully had a bad home life or bad work day.

    At what point are those types of females going to hold such bullies accountable, what does it take, when the guy is 30 years old and robs a bank?

    Do you think the FBI would let him go on bank robbery charges when they find out his brother died when he was ten years old? Probably not.

    But a lot of women let guys (or gals) coast through life with bad behavior over stuff like that. They expect you to be someone else’s punching bag because the bully had a bad home situation or something.


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    @ numo: my own father experienced profound disillusionment about many things after encountering both the S. Vietnamese government and our “war effort” 1st-hand.


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    @ ken:

    Ken, I understand what you are saying, but I for one am grateful that sometimes the dead horse keeps getting beaten. Reason? People are looking for help at different times. This blog and other survivor type blogs are pricelss help. Most of us have told our stories and received help and advice. If the same thing needs to be gone over and new people carrying on the stories and those of us who have been there can help, we must be there for them to see the horse get beaten. If we deal with these issues only once and leave it alone, where will the help be for those still being abused by wayward church overseers. I agree with you on the premise that no one should be mocking anyone and if you feel the need to
    beat that dead horse” then that’s ok too, if there is someone here who is open to that constructive criticism then your comments will have done good also.
    \


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    @ Nicholas: just out of curiosity… Have you studied political science at all? Agree or disagree (with me and others) as will – but a better understanding of terms would, I think, be useful to you in these kinds of discussions.


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    An attorney has a very left wing view of history. Both the left and right wings Rewrite history to fit their narrative. In reality history is very nuanced.


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    @ numo: err, at will, that is.


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    @ dee:

    In the back of my head throughout this entire discussion, I keep thinking to myself that some of the people who are constantly in your crosshairs are the ones that really need to come to this site and get a different perspective to understand how they are hurting people. IF they did that and change eventually took place, less people would get hurt and Christ would be exalted. That idea was why I stated (mistakenly maybe?) the goal of your efforts was the preeminence of Christ in all things (not just people healing).

    I’m sensing some of the attitudes that develop here would seem to keep those people away because you’ve possibly lost credibility in their eyes. Does that make sense?


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    @ anon 1: really – very left-wing?? If so, i’m the reincarnation of Trotsky’s daughter!


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    @ Patrice:

    thanks for the thoughts and suggestions!


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    @ numo: in other words, oh for Pete’s sake!


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    @ numo:

    I have a post, a long reply right above yours that I’m replying to now, but it’s in moderation.

    I hope you can read it sometime later, whenever it’s approved (assuming it is; I did not say anything bad in it) 🙂


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    OK, am out of the political thing. It never goes well for anyone when we get into that.

    Peace,
    numo


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    @ Daisy: will be sure to check – you probably hit the spam filter.


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    @ Patti:

    thank you, your thoughts were helpful to me. My view is being tweaked by having this conversation.


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    @ Daisy:
    Yah, we all need to find some meaning in suffering but “it’s making me a better person” is inadequate and can take on a masochistic edge.

    Suffering from abuse or disease (for egs) is a completely different issue than “suffering” the consequences of making a mistake or doing wrong. The latter we can learn from: action, reaction, cogitate, new action. Maybe Christians can confuse the two??

    Often, when we don’t get compassion from others during hard times, we will feel stingy for a long while afterwards because we are still starving a little inside. It’s happened to me, too. I hope you eventually found what you needed. You are a lovely woman, Daisy.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Here’s a commercial that shows how men and women are treated differently for being assertive (and for other things):

    Interesting video, Daisy, and so true. I used to hear mothers say of their young sons, “he’s got a mind of his own; he’s going to be a good leader someday.” And of their daughters, “she’s got a mind of her own; she’s going to be a “handful” someday.”

    Same attributes; different labels. My parents of 9 children (6 girls; 3 boys) did not attach labels to any of us. We all had household chores and responsibilities and they weren’t gender related or assigned as such. We grew up with self respect, with strong interpersonal skills, and a good work ethic.


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    Whoa, whoa, WHOA An Attorney!

    Was this comment directed at me? And if yes, why? Where in my post did you ascertain that I have “hatred” for Mandela?

    I stated that the U.S. was on the wrong side of history with its Cold War-centric strategic focus and subsequent foot dragging regarding sanctions against SA!

    And OBVIOUSLY Mandela’s politics and ideology grew and changed over the course of his lifetime, as happens with many many people. As a leader, however, he was clearly grounded in the timeless qualities of justice, mercy, and reconciliation which frankly transcend ideologies of all stripes.

    Perhaps you made an error and meant to respond to another comment. If so I completely understand but I’d appreciate if you’d kindly clarify, please.

    I’ve always respected your P.O.V. on TWW and I’m a bit disturbed that you feel that anything I wrote demonstrates “hatred.”

    An Attorney wrote:

    If you insist that he could not change, then you cannot have changed from unbeliever to believer either. Get over your hatred of a successful, respected black leader who went where he could to get the support he needed, when the USA was in bed with apartheid.


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    ken wrote:

    I keep thinking to myself that some of the people who are constantly in your crosshairs are the ones that really need to come to this site and get a different perspective to understand how they are hurting people. IF they did that and change eventually took place, less people would get hurt and Christ would be exalted. That idea was why I stated (mistakenly maybe?) the goal of your efforts was the preeminence of Christ in all things (not just people healing).

    I’m sensing some of the attitudes that develop here would seem to keep those people away because you’ve possibly lost credibility in their eyes. Does that make sense?

    I’m not Dee but I’ll answer too. Yes, that makes sense except for a few problems. One is that Dee/Deb’s goal is not to witness to the abusers but to provide a place of support for the abused.

    Of course most of the destructive people do drive by this and other survivors’ blogs but generally it is to prove their own righteousness, not for the purpose of understanding. Trying to force ourselves into a format that would convince them is an impossibility because they can always find an excuse (and do), no matter how ‘perfectly’ one presents. If some among them do come here with a pang of guilt and a modicum of humility, they will read carefully and discover the truth of it soon enough. This is how healing looks, it is rough and hard and uneven. Anyone who calls himself a leader should be wise enough to know that or he is not really eligible for the position.

    Also, wherever people are ‘let to heal’, Christ is preeminent. It is here, above all, that

    “…the Holy Ghost over the bent
    World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.”


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    ken wrote:

    the goal of your efforts was the preeminence of Christ in all things (not just people healing).

    How do you see these as two separate things?

    What the heck did Jesus do and how was He exalted during His earthly ministry? He healed and healed and healed and then healed some more. And then guess what? He healed on the Sabbath which ticked the religious folks to no end. How dare He dishonor the Sabbath (and in so doing dishonor God) by the lowly work of healing on the Sabbath?

    What did Jesus read when He stood up in the Synagogue?
    It was Isaiah 61:1&2. This is recorded in Luke 4.
    It goes like this:

    Luke 4:8 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
    because he has anointed me
    to proclaim good news to the poor.
    He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
    and recovery of sight for the blind,
    to set the oppressed free,
    19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

    You say, ‘(not just healing people)’ as though it is of no importance and that it is not near and dear to the heart of Jesus and not part of keeping Jesus preeminent.

    When people are healed, we ARE keeping Christ preeminent and we ARE doing the work of ministry.

    When we are warning people away from the wolves in sheep’s clothing, we ARE keeping Christ preeminent and doing the work of His ministry.

    Your separation of the two is rather disconcerting.
    It makes me wonder what the gospel and ministry, and keeping Christ preeminent means to you.


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    @ Patrice: I have a feeling that this started not long after people in the early centuries of the church began to embrace martyrdom, and as veneration of martyrs – and martyrdom – grew.


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    anon 1 wrote:

    I am curious if it is keeping Christ preeminent by teaching wife to take abuse for a season. Or by teaching women that they should view their husband as their leader even though he asked her to be a part of a threesome? There are plenty more where that came from but I would not call that keeping Christ preeminently

    Imo, the answer would be no.


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    Mara wrote:

    ken wrote:
    so you could take your vengeance out on your abuser with a firearm, another for sarcastic poems and parodies for mockery and laughter, another for venting all the vile and vulgar language you could muster, etc..
    You have missed the entire point.
    It takes time to disentangle oneself from an abusive situation AND ALL of the repercussions, aftershocks and thought patterns of having been subject to those who claim to speak for God and who used our desire to please Him against us for their benefit.
    It is not vengeance. It is and on-going process of escape, cutting of the ties that bind. AND it is a warning to others against these spiritual death traps, through humor, parody, sarcasm, and showing how ridiculous these cults are by going to the end of that ridiculousness.
    Smiling and keeping things sweet and walking on eggshells for fear of not keeping Christ ‘preeminent’ (whatever the heck that means) will not make the points that need to be made in the fight against sociopaths in the pulpits.

    My “in theory” part was said tongue in cheek as I don’t expect those ideas profitable. So, I think I understand at least the part of the time it takes to heal and the different ways.


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    Mara wrote:

    How do you see these as two separate things?

    I see healing as part of the preeminence of Christ.


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    @ numo:
    Yah. Paintings of St Sebastian with arrows elegantly run through and sweet large eyes rolled upward. Ugh.

    I simply do not understand how people can believe they participate in Christ’s sufferings with their own. I had a Catholic friend who felt that way, and I tried my best to understand but simply could not grab onto her logic in the analogy (much less agree, lol).


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    @ Patrice: st. Lawrence on the gridiron is worse, in my opinion…


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    @ numo:
    The WORST. I am glad I didn’t see that one when I was young.


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    Patrice wrote:

    If some among them do come here with a pang of guilt and a modicum of humility, they will read carefully and discover the truth of it soon enough.

    I’ve asked myself if Jesus did a parody of my life would I be more inclined to run to him or from him? That’s not how he treated me. Btw, I think grace is far beyond niceness and sweetness. I find myself constantly praying for those people that have hurt myself and the members of my family, and would not see the need or the benefit of how a parody which mocks and ridicules and scorns would result in reconciliation/and or change in their life.


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    ken wrote:

    I’m sensing some of the attitudes that develop here

    Attitudes that develop here? I do not know to what you are referring. They come here without an attitude and then develop an “attitude” is what you seem to be saying. So, why don’t you tell me precisely how that happens. How do we at TWW make them develop an attitude.

    ken wrote:

    would seem to keep those people away because you’ve possibly lost credibility in their eyes.

    And which attitudes expressed by whom cause us to lose credibility? You mean, people who have been deeply hurt and they come here and we develop this hurt into what?

    As for credibility, I do not do this blog for those people who do bad things in the church. I do it for the ones they hurt. And they are finding this blog quite helpful. One would have to be rather full of themselves to think that Driscoll, Mahaney, and others like them would ever find us credible since mere disagreement from those who followed them turned into a world war with Driscoll throwing people under the bus and Mahaney, well, he’s Mahaney.

    ken wrote:

    That idea was why I stated (mistakenly maybe?) the goal of your efforts was the preeminence of Christ in all things (not just people healing).

    Let’s stop with the Christianese. I am having trouble tracking you. Neither you or I, keep Christ preeminent in our lives 24/7. But you seem to project that you, of course, know how we should keep Christ preeminent. People heal here and in that healing, Christ is glorified. Turth is told here, and Jesus did say He was the truth.ken wrote:

    In theory, TWW could have separate forums for posters who need to vent in various fashions – one section where you could custom order posters with faces and a target superimposed on them so you could take your vengeance out on your abuser with a firearm, another for sarcastic poems and parodies for mockery and laughter, another for venting all the vile and vulgar language you could muster, etc..
    I understand people heal in different manners, but my concern is when those manners breed attitudes and actions that are in direct opposition to the goal – the preeminence of Christ in all thing

    I am getting a bit irritated with you “holier than thou” attitude. Perhaps that runs in the “Christ is preeminent” crowd. Obviously, since we are breeding actions and attitudes that reject your vaunted and obviously superior position in Christ, I wouldn’t know.

    But I think it is time to dial back a notch. I have been listening to your lectures, thinking about them and am now tired of them.I get it. You know how to do it and you do it very well. In fact, you do it so well that you are now going to teach us all how to do it.ken wrote:

    I keep thinking to myself that some of the people who are constantly in your crosshairs are the ones

    And now I get it, and I get you. There is an agenda here and I am not impressed with your obviously superior ability in keeping Christ preeminent.

    I have a problem. This blog post, which was about my concerns about Piper’s dadblasted video, has turned into a running commentary by, and about, Ken. When I see large chunks of the conversation being hijacked by one individual, I become concerned. This is about the appropriateness of the video. I should have stopped this a long time ago. I am terribly concerned that this is running away from me and this is my fault for not jumping in sooner.


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    @ Patrice: so am I! Equally true of myself, BTW…


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    @ Rafiki:
    I was addressing the person you address in your comment. Sorry about the confusion.

    @ Nicholas:
    No, I do not support communism, in any form. My point is that there have been a lot of ideologically hopeful people who find the ideas of Marxism attractive, but not the universal transitional dictatorship that never transitions. And I oppose dictatorship, whether in government or in the church, being a believer in true democracy and in the priesthood of each and every believer. But my point is that most of the “communists” other than the Soviets and the Chinese were liberationists seeking to overthrow repressive dictatorships and those repressive dictators were assisted in staying in power by the United States, in contradiction to our own ideals as expressed in the Constitution (including the Bill of Rights) and Declaration of Independence. Our foreign policy with respect to the developing world was dictated by American exploitative business interests, resulting in support for right-wing dictatorships, some of which were replaced by left-wing dictatorships, in large part left-wing BECAUSE of the U.S. support for the repression. One needs to keep in mind that the Viet Nam situation dates from before WWII and our involvement began prior to 1954, in the form of CIA and its predecessors supporting the French colonial government there, both before the Japanese occupation and after.


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    To Patrice, Dee, and Mara: Your elastigirl wrote:

    @ Wade Burleson:
    “not become joyful and celebratory in finding fault in the body of Christ.”
    +++++++++++++++++++++
    perhaps it’s a matter of perspective. example: if a person has been feeling bad in their body for a while, and a doctor finally diagnoses what it is, the person’s response will be part “oh no” and part “oh yes! deal with it and take it out!” Which way a person leans in their response is a matter of their experience with the trouble, their personality, their viewpoint, several things.
    “joyful and celebratory in finding fault” as an observation is missing the big picture of what is really going on.

    Patrice’s wise words, echoed by Dee and Mara, were like a healing balm to me, as I too, am gladdened when yet another leader’s hidden sins are revealed. I wasn’t going to comment this morning but I read this quote by Doug Wilson regarding the Doug Phillips scandal:

    “The second observation has to do with the snark shown by those who see such things as an occasion for venting their spleen. One of the reasons why men in Christian leadership have to be so careful in their lives is that this response is so entirely predictable. When Nathan the prophet rebuked David for his great sin, he referred to this response as one of the obvious and predictable consequences — “by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the Lord to blaspheme . . .” (2 Sam. 12:14).

    And that is what they do. But for those who know how the story goes, this is one of those occasions where the enemies of the Lord can be readily identified. By their glee ye shall know them.”

    I am incensed that the very men who have set up the evil structure that props men up in positions of false authority, then hides their abuse of that authority, then accuses those injured of bitterness and anger, and then has the unmitigated to call these victims “enemies of the Lord.” Maybe these are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Dougs, I am elated when another brick falls off this monstrous system. May she be reduced to her chief cornerstone.


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    Ken
    I am putting you into moderation for tonight and I am going to bed. You may not be approved until morning. You will be approved when i wake up and have some coffee.


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    Heading to bed

    I am sorry for the way this thread developed. I believe some of you were subjected to a bit of a diatribe in which your attitudes and actions were being called into question by someone who obviously knows far better how to be a “good” Christian.

    Jesus cares about your pain and understands how each of us struggle to deal with the hurt that we have experienced in this life. He loves you and is there for you in your journey. For some it is long, for others not so long. And then for many, it is like the Dow Jones-wildly fluctuating

    For some, however, the way they deal with pain is to tell other people how well they handle pain and how bad everyone else handles pain. It is a way for them to feel like they are really OK with God by showing that others are not doing it as well as they are. I have a pastor who calls this “cooking the books.”

    Good night all!


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    @ An Attorney:

    Appreciate the clarification.


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    Nicholas wrote:

    John Piper blasts David Instone-Brewer for saying that divorce is acceptable in the case of spousal abuse: http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/taste-see-articles/tragically-widening-the-grounds-of-legitimate-divorce

    It’s so sad that John Piper makes a straw man out of “emotional neglect.” He seems to see the topic as all or nothing: Arguing that if the church opens the door to divorce for abuse, then any minor thing can be called abuse.

    There are many churches that allow divorce for a broader ranger of serious offenses: The 4 A’s —
    • Adultery
    • Abandonment
    • Addictions
    • Abuse


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    ken wrote:

    …if Jesus did a parody of my life would I be more inclined to run to him or from him?…Btw, I think grace is far beyond niceness and sweetness. I find myself constantly praying for those people that have hurt myself and the members of my family, and would not see the need…of a parody which mocks and ridicules…

    What??? We are not Jesus for you or anyone.

    I already explained how I see grace and it’s not “niceness and sweetness”, so why make like you’re telling me something?

    Several of us have already explained that this blog is to support people who’ve been abused, not the abusers, so why keep insisting it should be opposite? Start your own blog for opposite, then invite them in for correction. That would be an excellent ministry on behalf of everyone. And if you like, we could come onto your threads and stubbornly repeat how you are doing it wrong.

    And sure, keep praying for those enemies of yours. But don’t assume, when doing it, that you are the only one who does, or that you are made extra holy by the exercise. And while you’re at it, pitch a few of those prayers on behalf of the members of this community who are healing from damage caused by men who call themselves leaders of the body of Christ. You know, like many of us also do.

    And learn the definition of “parody”. Catch some Monty Python and an Oscar Wilde play.


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    @ M. Joy:
    Way too risky. Just like shooting a video in downtown Dubai would have been for Piper, esp given the context. He doesn’t want to risk losing his visa. So, he invites other Christians to come do the work of risk taking while he simply goes there to visit. My opinion? He and his wife (a self-proclaimed world-traveler who lives to travel) are doing just that: traveling. As tourists they shot that video (I’m guessing Noel Piper filmed it) and then they could claim the trip as a ministry expense.

    How hard is it to go somewhere for a visit and announce to others that they must go where he is (not that he intends to stay) and risk their lives sharing the gospel in a place he says will be destroyed if they don’t?

    That kind of thing pisses me off. I’m tired of the way these guys use the gospel so disingenuously.


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    @ Evie:

    John Piper wants “radical Christians” to flood downtown Dubai.

    For a good antidote to this type of thinking, see: blog.acton.org/archives/53944-the-new-legalism-missional-radical-narcissistic-and-shamed.html


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    @ Nicholas:

    I liked what Piper said at the time he came out with his book on Christian hedonism. He sounded radical about his desire for God (thus the name of his ministry). But over the years his radical desire has been supplanted, in my view, by his staunch gender hierarchy which everything must conform to including his take on what is defined as “God’s glory.” With that, even the bible itself must conform to Piper’s belief in gender hierarchy and because of that I cannot hold him in high regard as a trusted servant of the Word. This video only serves to confirm that judgment of mine, especially when I see him casually tossing out warnings about impending doom all to elicit an response to his invitation to attend yet another money-making conference where he will be a main speaker and where his books and materials will be sold.

    I find that type of thing cheap and degrading. Once again he’s using scripture (the bible, the gospel) and making it conform to the message he wants you to hear, that’s been doctored by him, and presented as Dr. Piper’s prescription for what ails the world and his simple syrup for how to cure it – which of course means buying & mixing all the ingredients yourself according to what’s written in his book.


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    ken wrote:

    I keep thinking to myself that some of the people who are constantly in your crosshairs are the ones that really need to come to this site and get a different perspective to understand how they are hurting people.

    An afterthought on a previous comment.

    By the time these guys have made the great accomplishment of getting in our “crosshairs”, a great host have already tried to confront them concerning their error. If they had any desire to change, it would have come through someone on their elder board (but, that’s right, they fired that elder for being divisive), a concerned church member (but they ran that church member out and accused them of gossip and called the police on them), or a more local blogger/concerned website etc. (but they have warned their congregations that those places are the spawn of satan and the blog hosts have been taken to court).

    One of our Crosshair guys was actually confronted by a Christian radio journalist for plagiarism. But the Christian Mafia shut her down somehow. I’m sure we’ll hear more about that.

    All manner of reaching these sociopaths has been tried and exhausted. Most to all who have tried have been thrown under the bus and have suffered deeply and terribly.

    Can these Crosshair guys repent and turn around? I suppose.

    But little ol’ me out in the middle of nowhere… I’m far more concerned with finding and comforting the myriad of walking wounded left in the wake of these on-going tragedies.

    You aren’t going to hear “oh, poor sociopath in the pulpit. he must be reached,” coming out of my mouth

    No, you are going to hear a fanfare for the common man(woman) who only wanted to serve God in a home church but instead got the ever-living snot beat out them. Yet these average Joes and Josephines still love God and want to find Him in this somewhere, anywhere, in the pile of crap they have found themselves in. I will sing my song of healing for them. The sociopaths are on their own in their million dollar mansions.

    As mentioned above, if Ken feels a ministry need for the pulpit sociopaths, he’s more than welcome to figure out how to reach them.

    We have found that the best way to reach them is in the crosshairs. Hit them where it hurts, in the pocket book and in the number of warm bodies in their pews. They wrongly believe that the money and people belong to them. They are wrong. They both belong to God.


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    Janey wrote:

    …Arguing that if the church opens the door to divorce for abuse, then any minor thing can be called abuse.

    And think how inconvenient that would be. Every time a believer sought refuge from an abusive marriage, the assembly of believers would have to come together and make a responsible assessment of the case on its merits. Worse, we would have to learn to seek the wisdom of the Holy Spirit together rather than delegate that role to the traditions of our denomination and/or its appropriately educated officers. (Appropriate education is only one standard of qualification, and not a biblical one at that.)

    There is an important theme here, I think. A big reason why so many people buy this kind of thing is that they want rules, documents, constitutions, church buildings etc etc that they can see, not relationship with a God they can’t see. Just like Israel wanted a king like all the other nations, and centuries previously had struggled throughout the 40-year journey from slavery in Egypt to life in the Promised Land because (for one thing) they couldn’t cope with the responsibilities of freedom.

    The “weightier matters of the Law” Jesus spoke about, like justice and the love of God, are obviously too vague and difficult to define. It’s much easier to measure out a tenth of our mint, dill and cumin (figuratively speaking) and declare ourselves gospel™ on the strength of that.


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    Evie wrote:

    How hard is it to go somewhere for a visit and announce to others that they must go where he is (not that he intends to stay) and risk their lives sharing the gospel in a place he says will be destroyed if they don’t?
    That kind of thing pisses me off. I’m tired of the way these guys use the gospel so disingenuously.

    Exactly. In his latest article about how his teachings played a role in the decision of this young man to move his family to Libya http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/when-we-send-a-person-to-his-death , he finishes it off with “Finally, I call thousands of you to take Ronnie’s place. They will not kill us fast enough. Let the replacements flood the world.” To Piper I say, “YOU go first and set the example.”

    When I read the story of Ronnie Smith and his family, my stomach was in knots. I don’t want to go into it in a blog response, but I have lived through a horrible tragedy and loss that will affect me the rest of my life. When I think of Anita Smith suddenly being a widow and single mom, I am grieved for her.


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    As a resident and one who is working for the Name of Christ in this city (where we are given great freedom and protection under the authorities here)…I would beg whoever posted this to please take it down immediately! I know that John Piper surely had no idea the damage he was doing in making this statement, but for the sake of the Gospel in this area of the world, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE REMOVE THIS IMMEDIATELY! This could result in great damage to the work here. Unfortunately, the problem with wonderful Christians coming to briefly minister in areas like ours is that they don’t have enough perspective on the work here and can make some disastrous mistakes…like this one! Thanks so much!


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    I think Alanda is referring to John Piper’s video as the “THIS” that she hopes will be removed immediately, not the post about it here on TWW. It isn’t clear, though.


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    pcapastor

    I agree with you. I misread it and shall remove the comment and apologize to Alanda.


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    Alanda

    I made a miistake as I read your comment. I should only read comments after I have ingested one full up of coffee. Thank you for being concerned and I hope there are people who are listening.  Also, thank you to pca pastor who is far more alert in the morning than I am.


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    I have had personal experience with John Piper, wherein he tried his usual schtick of shaming everyone in the room who wasn’t willing to “radically” “give up their lives” “in obedience to Christ” (thus, literally losing family, jobs, and one’s current church family in the process).

    The two links that M. Joy posted above are what I wish those of us in the room had been able to say that day. Not so much for Piper’s sake (though, until a person breathes their last there is still hope — old dogs CAN learn new tricks), as to help protect the insecure Christians who were being swayed by the “passion.”

    But when his schtick is broadcast to the world it does indeed become dangerous, and I am thankful you have taken the time to directly plead with the businessmen to come to their senses and remove the video. It is highly, highly inappropriate; deeply, deeply offensive; and NOT Christianity.


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    @ dee:
    To err is human; to drink coffee makes us divine 😉

    I share your sentiments!

    Moreover, I contend Piper knew what he said would get attention and cause dissent. He’s doing marketing not ministry! What did he do ministry wise while in Dubai? And what respect does this video show to Christians in Dubai who are working to spread the Good News? I’m sure Alanda would agree when I say NONE! He might as well said the Christians here are failing.

    Nice, John Piper, real nice. Such a nice guest you were there, too. Eating their food. Drinking their whatever. Visiting their attractions. Then saying it’s going to become a pile of rubble.

    Oh, for the love of God put that man on a plane and send him to an igloo in Siberia, add him to a dog sled team, and tell him to Hush!!!


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    @ Evie:

    It’s not any different than the sensationalism that Driscoll drummed up crashing the Strange Fire conference. IMO – Piper’s stunt is worse as it puts those ministering in foreign countries in additional harm.


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    dee wrote:

    Heading to bed
    I am sorry for the way this thread developed.

    I’m not sorry! I have a Word Doc called “Brilliant Comments from TWW.” I have copied and pasted about 20 comments from this “hijacked thread” including yours, Wade’s, Patrices’s, Nick’s, Victorious’s, and others. It has been extremely helpful to me to understand a lot of what I still struggle with. I even copied one of Ken’s posts…I think that’s the beauty of this blog…we’re all in process and we know it. I hope you slept well.

    BTW, Eagle, have you shared your testimony online? I would love to read it. Thanks!


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    @ pcapastor:

    Thank you for calling it what it is, his passion shitck. I have family members who went to work for him 15 years ago who became toxic and literally alienatedthemselvesf from their own family


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    Dee,

    This is a post in which John Piper explicitly encourages Christians (who sense a calling to do so) to look into moving to Dubai for the sake of sharing the Gospel. He even writes about the freedom with which preachers can talk about the Gospel in Dubai. http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/dubai-amazing-and-strategic-city

    Meanwhile, David Platt is at least hinting that sharing the Gospel in Dubai can put one in physical danger! Maybe Piper and Platt could benefit from having a conversation on this subject, if they haven’t already done so…? I don’t know; the mixed messages are confusing to me. Don’t get me wrong– I know full well that there are Christian churches in Dubai and that conversations about various faiths happen there freely. I’m just confused as to why even *similarly Calvinistic leaders* seem to have such varying views of what life is like for Christians in Dubai!

    I really wish that *both* Piper and Platt could see the daily life of my girlfriend there, living with and working for a Muslim family, stuck in a contract with them as an “overseas foreign worker” from the Philippines. Her daily reality is actually somewhere *between* what Piper and Platt describe… but sadly, given that she is a Catholic, both of them would view her as being just as lost and in need of Christ as the Muslim family for whom she works! 🙁


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    M. Joy wrote:

    …he finishes it off with “Finally, I call thousands of you to take Ronnie’s place. They will not kill us fast enough. Let the replacements flood the world.”

    This is a follow-up to the dadblasted video. He is calling back the Crusades. Unbelievable!

    John the Pied Piper, trusty rusty Knight of the God of Wrath, leading from behind


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    @ Bridget:
    Exactly! Like, who’s team is the guy on? It just infuriates me that he would say something that completely dismisses any other sacrificial Christian missionary work that has happened and is currently happening over there. Not a word! All he suggests is that some new, unprecedented work take place. And where is he, at the forefront of that, calling in the troops? And why? Because he happens to be there standing in a wide open space shooting a video? That gives him the authority to say what he did?

    Hold me back because my coffee is buzzing and it’s looking to put it’s stingers into Piper’s delicate, unshodden feet.

    “God’s work done in God’s way will never lack God’s supply.” Hudson Taylor


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    @ Patrice:

    While Piper goes back to the safety of his new Nashville home.


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    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    There is an important theme here, I think. A big reason why so many people buy this kind of thing is that they want rules, documents, constitutions, church buildings etc etc that they can see, not relationship with a God they can’t see.

    The unrelenting “certainty” that is the hallmark of modern evangelicalism has deadened any sense of mystery and the attendant sense of wonder, awe, and gratitude that naturally flows from our faith in the Living (and unseen) God.

    “10 E-Z Steps to Gospel Success!” “Attend or Read THIS [insert conference/book of your choice] and be Immediately Sanctified!” “Rigidly Defend the Faith From the Godless ‘Other’ to the Nth Degree of Certainty Via Pastor Bob’s A-1 Apologetics Academy-n-Debate Club!” “Only Members (TM) of Our Church (TM) Have All the Answers (TM) and Everyone Else is Apostate – Boo!”

    Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    the “weightier matters of the Law” Jesus spoke about, like justice and the love of God, are obviously too vague and difficult to define. It’s much easier to measure out a tenth of our mint, dill and cumin (figuratively speaking) and declare ourselves gospel™ on the strength of that.

    I’m done with soulless evangelical certainty, personally. I am unsuccessfully falling on my face every minute of my life grappling with the “weightier matters of the Law” and coming up short every single time.

    And guess what? IT’S GOOD ENOUGH. Nothing, but nothing, will ever separate me from the love of God. He loves me anyway. No matter how cranky, foul-mouthed, judgmental, beat up by life, beat up by others, mean, sad, angry, “perfect” or piously gospelly I am, He simply does not care one bit. He still loves us!

    I can’t explain it for my life, and at this point I don’t want an explanation. I figure He’ll reveal it all in His own time – it’s not my responsibility to parse, slice, and dice His inscrutable ways. In the meanwhile, I’m going to bask in His love and thank Him for it. Imperfectly as always. That’s also enough for now.

    Whew! Thanks Nick for your comment.


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    @ M. Joy:

    The “Christian Martyr of Benghazi” meme that’s cropped up around Mr. Smith’s tragic death last week is disconcerting at the very least.


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    ken wrote:

    So, I think I understand at least the part of the time it takes to heal and the different ways.

    Perhaps you do.
    Perhaps you don’t.
    Perhaps you should remember that “One size fits all” is generally a bad idea. And expecting it to fit all or nearly all will only frustrate everyone involved.

    I say this as a person who has walked with those so broken by life, family, and church that they have alienated nearly everyone else. I’ve walked through the valley of the shadow of death with them. It is a dark and terrifying place. Much room needs to be made for cleaning up the mess. Sometimes if spiritually feels like cleaning up infants or the bedridden elderly after an explosive diarrhea episode.

    I’m trying to help you understand how messy it can really get. If you can’t stand the smell, stay away from it.
    But just as God doesn’t exist nurseries or nursing homes because of the mess, neither does He exit places where the worst of the worst spiritual abused are being exposed and the mess that goes along with it.


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    M. Joy wrote:

    Exactly. In his latest article about how his teachings played a role in the decision of this young man to move his family to Libya http://www.desiringgod.org/blog/posts/when-we-send-a-person-to-his-death , he finishes it off with “Finally, I call thousands of you to take Ronnie’s place. They will not kill us fast enough. Let the replacements flood the world.” To Piper I say, “YOU go first and set the example.”

    Amen!


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    M. Joy wrote:

    Exactly. In his latest article about how his teachings played a role in the decision of this young man to move his family to Libya he finishes it off with “Finally, I call thousands of you to take Ronnie’s place. They will not kill us fast enough. Let the replacements flood the world.” To Piper I say, “YOU go first and set the example.”

    Amen, M. Joy. If Piper wants to call young men to martyrdom, let Piper do it first.


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    Test. (Last 2 comments in mod)


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    ken wrote:

    anon 1 wrote:

    I am curious if it is keeping Christ preeminent by teaching wife to take abuse for a season. Or by teaching women that they should view their husband as their leader even though he asked her to be a part of a threesome? There are plenty more where that came from but I would not call that keeping Christ preeminently

    Imo, the answer would be no.

    Then we have a problem. The man you have credited with teaching you about the preeminance of Christ focuses on the above (and more like it) quite a bit. He teaches it to young pastors and tells women it is God’s truth. In effect, all he is doing is making man preeminant.


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    Patrice wrote:

    I just don’t agree with that view. I see suffering as part of the ongoing brokenness in this world. I cannot see that what many people suffer (sometimes literally mind/soul/body breaking) as necessary for their sanctification and/or to make them useful to God in their later lives. And certainly it is not “sharing in the sufferings of Christ” because Jesus was the only one who could do the job of suffering-for-a-good-reason, and it was well done and is finished.
    Thus I don’t see the sufferings in my life as gifts. I find them to be the opposite, evil that destroyed much of me (my physical issues are the end consequences of long-term abuse).

    Amen, Patrice. Our duty as believers is to alleviate as much suffering as we can while we journey here.


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    Deebs –

    I think I’ve lost a post to moderation. It had one link to Desiring God.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Excellent comment.


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    @ Patrice: That’s exactly what he’s doing, and it really does not help *anyone,* in any way at all.

    Not to mention that it tells others in the world (not just Arab Muslims) about our real intentions – empire-building.


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    dee wrote:

    I should only read comments after I have ingested one full up of coffee

    Cute picture for you, “Before And After Coffee,”
    Before and After Coffee


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    @ Patrice:

    I find the entire Joni Erickson Tada sham to really be that…a sham. If there is one situation that puts to shame the hypocrisy of those pushing extreme gender roles, what women can and cannot do..it’s Tada that shows why complimentarims (sp?) is a total shame and nothing but patriarchy.

    Yes she is handiciapped…so how can Joni serve and sumbit to her husband? The roles are abscially reversed in her husband taking here of her. As a paraplegic someone has to do the laundry, bath, change, etc… and in the role of the woman as held up by Piper and all…Joni Erickson Tada fails it.

    PLUS I find it damning that she taught at the Strange Fire conference. All this ^%&$ about why women can’t teahc, preach, etc… and that’s exactly what she does everytime she tells her story…Joni is preaching. Not only that she is quoting scripture when she tells her story. I’d love to hear what happens if she is ever in Tim Challies chruch 😛


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    @ Daisy:

    That’s hilarious, Daisy!


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    M. Joy wrote:

    he finishes it off with “Finally, I call thousands of you to take Ronnie’s place. They will not kill us fast enough. Let the replacements flood the world.”
    To Piper I say, “YOU go first and set the example.”

    It does bother me he encourages other people to do something he is likely unwilling to do himself.

    I just caught one of the X-Men movies in repeat on cable over the weekend.

    There was a similar situation where the mutant villain, Magneto, put an innocent, kidnapped mutant girl, Rogue, in a contraption that would kill her, but it served his larger goal of messing with the humans, so he was okay with her dying in the process.

    A good guy mutant, Wolverine, told the baddie something like,
    “You are so self righteous. If you really believed in your cause, you would let the girl go, put yourself in that thing, and die yourself.”

    Kind of reminds me of Piper on this,
    “Hey everyone, I’ll just stay safe in the States or in nations hospitable to Christians, but y’all need to risk your lives in nations where Christianity is not welcomed. It’s for the greater good, so do risk your life!”
    🙄
    Piper-Magneto. 😆


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    @ Eagle:

    Eagle, I believe it was here at TWW blog that Deb and Dee did a story of a man who returned from serving in Iraq (or Afghanistan), he came back paralyzed, and I believe brain-damaged. He is in a wheelchair.

    His wife had to take over all duties in the relationship, yet some complementarian group (I can’t recall which one) held this wife up as an example of “biblical womanhood” because the husband was still the “head” in the marriage, they claimed. – ❓ 😕

    I don’t get that. Gender comps say what makes women different from men is the God designed our roles differently, or we have different roles to carry out.

    If that is so, how can those gender comps who held that lady up as an example, not say that the woman of the injured vet was not in violation of her “biblical womanhood” role, since she had to take over the husband’s role???

    In your example, if gender comps are to be consistent, Tada’s husband is in violation for taking over the perceived “wifely/womanly” duty of playing her nursemaid on occasion.

    Any time a woman takes over what they consider a man’s role, gender comps usually throw a fit and say the woman is trying to “usurp” a man’s authority or position, and/or that she is no longer being a woman.

    Gender complementarians change the rules and definitions of gender roles to suit their purposes, as with the wife of the paralyzed vet. It doesn’t seem intellectually honest that they do this, and it looks hypocritical.

    So I agree with you. There are examples where one spouse has to take over what gender comps consider to be both roles, or, the wife has to take over the stereotypical “man’s” role, or vice versa, but gender comps still re-define it all to fit their views, or justify it, or explain it away.

    I’ve seen gender comp preachers do that with passages of strong women who led or taught men, such as Deborah from the Old Testament who led Israel. They explain, ‘Oh well, she was an exception. She does not count.’


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    @ Bridget:

    I’m glad you enjoyed that. A coffee-loving friend of mine shared that photo with me months ago.

    I’m more of a tea drinker but do enjoy the occasional cup of coffee (with lots of sugar).

    I used to work with a guy who would literally shake if he didn’t drink several cups of coffee at work during the day.


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    Eagle wrote:

    For those of you interested can I recommend that you read Elizabth Elliot’s “Through Gates of Splender”. It takes a different approach than what John Piper is pushing. Jim Elliot and others didn’t view themself as marching to their deaths, but instead reaching out and loving the Aucas.

    I understand when canonization of saints got systematized in the early Middle Ages, one of the scrutinies for Martyrdom was the motive of the Martyrs under consideration. Deliberately seeking Martyrdom was enough to disqualify the would-be Martyr, as there was no way to be certain this wasn’t actually a Church-acceptable suicide attempt.


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    @ Daisy: Funny pic, and shows why I don’t drink coffee – talk about wired!


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    M. Joy wrote:

    [from Mr Piper]… Finally, I call thousands of you to take Ronnie’s place.

    That kind of reminds me of a snippet of Shakespearean dialogue.

    Owen Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep!
    Hotspur: Why, so can I; and so can any man. But will they come when you call them?


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    Daisy wrote:

    Piper-Magneto.

    In the movies, Magneto’s background was surviving a Nazi Concentration Camp as a child. Watching the Krema ovens do their thing to others like him because they were of the “Different” races in the Third Reich. And that colored his entire career as a supervillain when he came out as a high-powered Mutant.

    Magneto was one of the “Never Again!” types whose “Never Again!” became “Because We’ll do it to Them first!” He became a Mutant Supremacist who by the second movie was willing to exterminate the non-Mutants to make the world safe for Mutantkind. He had become a reflection of the opposing non-Mutant Supremacists like that Senator. Communism begets Objectivism.


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    pcapastor wrote:

    I have had personal experience with John Piper, wherein he tried his usual schtick of shaming everyone in the room who wasn’t willing to “radically” “give up their lives” “in obedience to Christ” (thus, literally losing family, jobs, and one’s current church family in the process).

    And once you get on the “radical obedience” bandwagon, there is no upper limit. Just one-upmanship over “Who is The MOST Radically Obedient?”

    Back when “radical obedience” was all tied up in monastic asceticism, we got the likes of St Rose of Lima, whose “Mortification” (including tearing her originally-beautiful face until there was nothing left but scar tissue and gargling lye to destroy her voice) ended up killing her before she turned 30. And this self-destructiveness was held up as THE example of “radical obedience” and “Mortification of the Flesh”. To this day I cannot tell if she was canonized in spite of her self-destructiveness or because of it (mistaken for “radical obedience”).


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    @ Nick Bulbeck: Marvelous quote./comment, Nick! And very funny as well.


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    Eagle wrote:

    es she is handiciapped…so how can Joni serve and sumbit to her husband? The roles are abscially reversed in her husband taking here of her. As a paraplegic someone has to do the laundry, bath, change, etc… and in the role of the woman as held up by Piper and all…Joni Erickson Tada fails it.

    No, no, no, Eagle, you just don’t get it. When Tada’s husband does all that, he is “loving sacrificially.” If she were doing it, it would be “submitting.” Can’t you tell the difference? 😉


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    @ dee:

    It appears to me that Wade was doing the same thing as ken, and all of it diverted from the topic and wrongness (maybe not a work, but it works) of what Piper said in his video clip.

    It doesn’t matter what his motives are, what he said disses all the ministries already working in foreign Muslim countries and possibly puts many people in harms way. And for what? To pump his conference up because he feels he has something to say about missions, that nobody else does? Isn’t that why the video was made?

    Again, I view this as bad, or worse, than what Driscoll did at Strange Fire. I doubt as many people will call out Piper, though. He seems to be more in favor with the crowds at the moment than Driscoll.


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    Wade –

    Did you weigh in on the video? I might have missed your response to it.


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    @ Nick Bulbeck:

    It reminds me of the Children’s Crusades in the Dark Ages.


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    On the subject of suffering, and the Catholic Church’s view of it: I understand that some people here don’t, and can’t accept, Catholic teaching on the issue. However, there is at least as much Biblical support for the Catholic view (of offering up our sufferings in union with Christ’s) as there is for any other Christian view of suffering, and from what I have studied, it has a serious Christian historical pedigree. Again, I know that some people here (maybe most) don’t accept it. I hope that no one actually thinks that the Catholic Church fetishizes suffering in her official teaching though. That is not the case. This article on the subject may be helpful: http://www.calledtocommunion.com/2013/12/i-rejoice-in-the-sufferings-of-christ/

    On a more personal note: I was born with Cerebral Palsy and use a wheelchair for most of my getting around in daily life. When I was nine years old, my bi-polar mother committed suicide. I was tormented and bullied throughout high school. I earned a college degree in English and am generally considered to be a thoughtful, intelligent man, but I have struggled terribly in the job market. At 40 years old, I am physically disabled, I have chronic pain issues, I am unemployed, and, despite my wishes and prayers, I live alone. I have lost most of a very large community of Reformed people whom I *thought* were my friends, because of the fact that in 2010, I returned to the Catholic Church. I don’t seek out suffering, but I have not been able to avoid very successfully in my life (and I’m not referring to self-destructive, self-induced suffering). The Catholic view of suffering has helped to keep me sane. I believe that it is Biblical. Again, I get that some people here don’t agree on that point. I just wanted to add my thoughts. Peace.


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    Was the video removed? 🙂


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    @ Bridget:
    Good night! They took down the video. Yay!!!!!!!!!!!


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    @ Bridget: I have no idea when it came down. Do you?


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    I looked on this site about 5 minutes ago and saw the cartoon instead of the video. I don’t know if it’s gone for good, or off the conference site, or just blocked.


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    I hope people will realize that people like John Piper, Mark Driscoll, and John MacArthur are just Fred Phelps in nicer clothes with better English. Their hateful methodology is insidious because it is covered with theological terms and many people don’t see the true nature of their beliefs and preaching. At least with Fred Phelps, what you see is what you get. While I do not worship your God, I do appreciate the good work you all are doing.


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    You don’t have to look far! Just take a peek at all the students that SB seminaries are spewing out. You’ll get a pretty good idea! 🙁@ Deb:


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    Bruce Gerencser wrote:

    I hope people will realize that people like John Piper, Mark Driscoll, and John MacArthur are just Fred Phelps in nicer clothes with better English.

    You’ll get no argument from me on that point, Bruce.


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    @ Christopher Lake:
    A dear older Catholic friend of mine used to encourage me to pray, “Dear God, please give me my cross to bear”. She was a devoted intercessor which I loved, and certainly she received an answer to her prayer as she had an extremely hard life. For myself, I don’t think that’s a prayer I would willingly pray. Do you see or hear this in current Catholic discourse?


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    @ Eagle:
    Eagle, have you read the book by Nate Saint’s son Steve ‘The End of the Spear,’ about the time he went to live with the Waodani (the Aucas)? It gives the Waodani version of what happened that January day in 1956 and the truth turns more prosaic than anything Mrs Elliott considered in her book. But wonderful stories of how God turns all things to good.


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    @ Rafiki:
    Been thinking about what to say for a couple of days and can’t come up with anything profound except a joke from the 80s as illustration of the grip the Dutch Reformed Church had on SA society.

    Van der Merwe went parachuting one day in the Orange Free State, jumped out the aeroplane but when he pulled the cord to open the ‘chute nothing happened. Then he realised – nothing opens in Bloemfontein on a Sunday.

    Groan, but I think you get the picture. Also, my high school history teacher made a point of telling us that Oswald Pirow, a cabinet minister in the 1930s was a Nazi supporter and admirer of Hitler. And following the progression of apartheid laws from the Land Act of 1913 which dispossessed black South Africans from most of the land gave one a rough idea of the inhumanity of it all.


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    Haitch wrote:

    @ Christopher Lake:
    A dear older Catholic friend of mine used to encourage me to pray, “Dear God, please give me my cross to bear”. She was a devoted intercessor which I loved, and certainly she received an answer to her prayer as she had an extremely hard life. For myself, I don’t think that’s a prayer I would willingly pray. Do you see or hear this in current Catholic discourse?

    Haitch,

    I’m not aware of any Catholic that I *personally know*, in my Catholic circle of friends, who has prayed that exact kind of prayer– but I would willingly pray it, myself, using different words, and I do think that it’s consistent with Catholic teaching. Please, please know, the Church never says that we should masochistically seek out suffering for the *sake* of suffering itself. That would be *deeply* unhealthy.

    In regard to the sufferings of other people, we should seek to alleviate suffering whenever and however we can, without sinning in the process (helping with an abortion is an example that some might see as “merciful” but is actually sinful). The Catholic Church, despite the many sins of her members throughout history (including me!) has a deep and rich tradition of helping people who suffer in various ways. The Catholic Church basically founded what we know today as “hospitals,” and, throughout the world, many priests and nuns pour out their lives caring for the poor and marginalized. Catholic lay people are exhorted, even commanded, to care for the poor and suffering. That is the teaching of Jesus. *How* we care for them (I am one of “them” myself!), in the wider public sphere, can be debated, as a matter of public governmental policy, but Catholics should and must help people who are suffering, when possible, without being involved in sin in the process.

    I certainly do not *seek out* personal suffering for myself. I’m not a masochist! 🙂 Moreover, I probably seek out personal comfort far too much, to the point that I am not nearly as obedient to some of Christ’s “hard teachings” as I should be. (This Pope is really convicting me on that, and I’m glad for it!) I do think, though, that God has used, and is using, the sufferings in my life for His perfect good. Romans 8:28-29. Those verses are much of the story of my life. I don’t understand all of how it works, and honestly, I fight it, too much of the time, in selfishly seeking my own comfort and not always being as open to entering into others’ suffering as I could be. God is still working on me though, thanks be to Him!:-)

    As for the official “Catholic position” on suffering, the Church does teach that the suffering which *cannot be avoided in our lives* should be offered up by us, to God, for Him to use for whatever good that He (and sometimes, He alone!) knows is best. As for the personal suffering which *can* be avoided in our lives, we should avoid it!– *unless* doing so causes us to be unconcerned about the suffering of others, to the point of not trying to help them in dealing with it.

    If I were to pray to God about my suffering, and growing closer to Him in the midst of it (I should pray about these things much more than I do!!), I wouldn’t ask Him to send me my cross. He has already done that in many ways, and while it’s hard to always thank Him for it, I do thank Him.

    In my prayer(s) about my own suffering, I would simply ask God to bring me as close to the Sacred Heart of Jesus as possible, in the ways that *He alone knows* are best– *even* if that means, somehow, that some of my most cherished earthly dreams (lucrative, steady employment, marriage, children, a life free of chronic pain at 40 years old) are never fulfilled in this life. To be clear, I *want* all of these things, very much, and I pray and work for them!! If God wants me to grow closer to Him through *not* having them though, I want to be open to that admittedly hard path of sanctification.


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    @ Christopher Lake:
    Thanks for your considered reply. I came to the conclusion, ‘why pray for more suffering, I have enough already!’ PS the Catholic Church and I part ways over contraception. I find it deeply disrespectful of me as a woman that a group of (mostly) unmarried men (the Vatican) interpret books (the bible) that have also been written and translated by men. They purport to remove my intelligent decision making power in choosing effective, reliable means of preventing pregnancy, and it’s done globally. Rhythm method – makes good Catholic babies. I have seen too much of the hardship (suffering) of women under this doctrine. I’ve always said – it’s about time that men can get pregnant and have to assume most of the childrearing duties. I predict a swift policy shift when that happens.


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    Estelle wrote:

    Van der Merwe went parachuting one day in the Orange Free State, jumped out the aeroplane but when he pulled the cord to open the ‘chute nothing happened. Then he realised – nothing opens in Bloemfontein on a Sunday.

    Thanks Estelle – really appreciate your feedback and at the end of the day, who doesn’t love a good Van der Merwe joke? 🙂

    When it comes to matters of faith, my Afrikaaner friends have either turned their back entirely on the reformed teachings of their youth or spent a few years trying out a more charismatic “modern” evangelicalism before departing the church completely.

    This of course, is only a tiny sampling of my personal friends and is in no way representative, plus my friends live in urban areas that are way different than small rural areas.

    But if there was a study of religious practices amongst the last apartheid-era generation (as opposed to the post-1994 Born Frees) I’d guess that church attendance is pretty low. Could be wrong but that’s my guess.


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    Christopher Lake wrote:

    As for the personal suffering which *can* be avoided in our lives, we should avoid it!–

    Don’t they teach that one can/should offer up their suffering for the poor souls in purgatory? They taught that when I was catholic.


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    By the way, Susan and I will be going to the Cross Conference and engaging the young people at the conference face to face. We are designing tracts to give them that will challenge the New Calvinist gospel. Please support this missionary trip anyway you can. We look forward to engaging these young people in dialogue, and challenging their involvement in the movement. Since the attendees will be mostly young seminary students, the tracts are doctrinal in nature.


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    Please, please, please, if you need a Vimeo reproduced, email us. Nobody has a copy of this? Ouch.


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    paulspassingthoughts wrote:

    Please, please, please, if you need a Vimeo reproduced, email us. Nobody has a copy of this? Ouch.

    I have a voice recording. You reproduce any video? That could be useful. Also, I am willing to donate some money to your Cross Con efforts. How do I go about doing this?


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    Haitch wrote:

    Thanks for your considered reply. I came to the conclusion, ‘why pray for more suffering, I have enough already!’ PS the Catholic Church and I part ways over contraception. I find it deeply disrespectful of me as a woman that a group of (mostly) unmarried men (the Vatican) interpret books (the bible) that have also been written and translated by men. They purport to remove my intelligent decision making power in choosing effective, reliable means of preventing pregnancy, and it’s done globally. Rhythm method – makes good Catholic babies. I have seen too much of the hardship (suffering) of women under this doctrine. I’ve always said – it’s about time that men can get pregnant and have to assume most of the childrearing duties. I predict a swift policy shift when that happens.

    Haitch,

    I completely hear you about not praying for more suffering. I have enough trouble offering up the suffering that I already have as it is! 🙂

    On the Catholic Church and artificial contraception, I won’t seek to have a discussion about it, because your convictions on the issue are your own and are very strong. I am going to leave a link to an article on the subject written by a Catholic woman, a convert, who accepts the Church’s teaching. Please feel free to read it or not read it– no pressure from me at all. I leave it for you only to provide a Catholic female perspective on the teaching. Peace and blessings to you. http://www.ncregister.com/blog/jennifer-fulwiler/those-catholic-women-who-use-contraception


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    Victorious wrote:

    Don’t they teach that one can/should offer up their suffering for the poor souls in purgatory? They taught that when I was catholic.

    Victorious,

    That is still part of official Catholic teaching. Honestly, I don’t think about, or pray about, the souls in Purgatory (which I do believe in, as a Catholic) nearly as much as I should. I can certainly offer up the suffering that I do have, for their souls and the souls of others, while still seeking to avoid needless, unnecessary suffering in my life. That is what I have been taught as a Catholic. I offer up my suffering for the good of others, but I don’t masochistically seek out suffering in a way that would actually be detrimental.


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    @ Haitch: Yep!


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    @ Haitch: I think that if you were to do a survey of “cradle” Catholics, you’d find that most women agree with you.

    I have a hunch that if men could experience everything that goes on in pregnancy and childbirth, artificial contraception would be OK’d in a heartbeat.


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    Estelle wrote:

    Groan, but I think you get the picture. Also, my high school history teacher made a point of telling us that Oswald Pirow, a cabinet minister in the 1930s was a Nazi supporter and admirer of Hitler.

    Did this Pirow guy found the AWB? Sure sounds like it.