Folks, please read the following comment made by Justin Taylor when he shut down comments on this blog post after receiving pushback on his Mefferd tweet. It appears that he might be calling Boz Tchvidjian a known slanderer. Others think it might be either Wade Burleson or Peter Lumpkins.
(1) I thought that Ms. Mefferd acted unprofessionally and that authors should know something about her modus operandi here. First, she has every right to raise the issue, but it should have been done first to Mark or his publisher offline. It’s a violation of the Golden Rule. Second, I don’t know what more Mark could have said. He said that he may have made a mistake and that he would consult with Dr. Jones and fix it if he was wrong. But Ms. Mefferd kept badgering him on the point. Third, she told an untruth (conspiracy theorists notwithstanding) that he hung up on her. Her producer even emailed a breathless report to bloggers trying to make a story out of this. Maybe she has apologized for this but I haven’t seen it.
(2) This is not the first time I’ve observed this behavior from her. I think it is very problematic that she has given a platform to a known slanderer regarding the SGM situation. She also tried to try the case in the court of public opinion and proceeded in an unbiblical way. In other words, this didn’t seem like a one-off situation.
(3) I probably should have kept this opinion to myself, but I still hold it.
If this is the case, things could get very ugly, indeed. And yes, Taylor should have heeded his own advice in #3. Here is a link to a post that I wrote called Slander or an Inconvenient Truth.
If you think that I am wrong, please tell me to whom you think he is referring?
Update: A reader said that only Boz T., Wade Burleson, and Peter Lumpkins were on Mefferd's show to address the SGM debacle. So, which one is the slanderer? And will Taylor prove it or hide behind closed comments again?
Update 11:14 PM One new commenter suggested Brent Detweiler. Dee is still leaning towards Boz T. Folks, this deals with child sex abuse and this sort of gamesmanship is despicable.
Update Wednesday 8:30 AM Thank you for Bene D who provided us with the following documentation. Remember, Taylor specifically mentions SGM.
1. Brent Detwiller was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show February 28,2013
2. Boz T was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show June 6,2013 re: the SGM lawsuit
3. Boz T was also interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show October 7,2013 re: sexual abuse in the church
4. Peter Lumpkins was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show June 17,2014 re: his SBC resolution
4. Wade Burleson was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show Februrary 14, 2013.
5. Susan Burke (lawyer bringing the SGM lawsuit)was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show October 18,2012.
6. Bill O’Neil (lawyer) was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show May 16, 2013 re: appeal
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Dee –
Wasn’t Brent D. interviewed on her program? Perhaps that is who he is referring to in his comments. I wonder how he makes the determination that someone is ” a known slanderer”?
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I think he was either referring to Boz or Peter Lumpkins. Boz, Peter, and Wade Burleson are the only people I know of that Janet Mefferd has had on her show to talk about the SGM scandal. Either way, Taylor’s comments and behavior are appalling
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@ Nicholas:
I didn’t think about either Wade or Peter.
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I found a reference to Brent being interviewed on the Janet Mefferd Show in February 2013.
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Dee
Thanks for the heads up. In my experience this is typical of guys like Taylor who will make incredibly strong accusations–‘he’s a known slanderer’–but leave it fill in the blank so there’s plausible deniability. No one can contest his statement after all. Who’s the slanderer? This is a win/win for him any way you slice it. He gets to spray his moral accusations–dare we dub it slander?–with full impunity. Practically he’s doing the identical thing he condemns with a completely false sense of security that he’s behaving righteously. God knows his heart and is not ignorant of whom he intends to judge. Just more silly self-righteousness from immature guys catapulted into positions beyond their spiritual pay grade.
Lord bless…
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peter lumpkins wrote:
Made me smile.
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Mara wrote:
Me too. Which is why I referred to it on the last thread as ignorant arrogance. It is mind numbing.
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Justin Taylor is correct. Sort of. In his world a known slanderer is anybody who dares speak negatively about one of his demi-gods riding the conference circuit.
“It’s a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.”
― George Orwell, 1984
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1. Brent Detwiller was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show February 28,2013
http://tinyurl.com/lw5jpc2
2. Boz T was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show June 6,2013 re: the SGM lawsuit
http://tinyurl.com/loeo59j
3. Boz T was also interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show October 7,2013 re: sexual abuse in the church
http://tinyurl.com/p6zujd5
4. Peter Lumpkins was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show June 17,2014 re: his SBC resolution
http://tinyurl.com/m9oks49
4. Wade Burleson was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show Februrary 14, 2013.
http://tinyurl.com/kvy8dwb
5. Susan Burke (lawyer bringing the SGM lawsuit)was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show October 18,2012.
http://tinyurl.com/lfx5gz9
6. Bill O’Neil (lawyer) was interviewed on The Janet Mefferd Show May 16, 2013 re: appeal
http://tinyurl.com/jwkpa82
Justin Taylor has some s’plaining to do.
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So Jared needs to come clean and man up. They are big on the manly thing right? So Jared who is the known slanderer?
Sounds like he got his talking points from Al Mohler. It is all about defending. The child molester protector and blackmailer Mahaney.
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I read that post on Justin Taylor’s blog. If Mark Driscoll is stuck in an ongoing case of prolonged puberty for the last 30 years….then what does one make of Justin Taylor?
In totalitarian regimes history is re-written and defined by how they want to define it. It can be the Communists, Nazis, or Radical Islamic militants…they work at redefining the facts. One of the quotes I like from Joseph Goebbels fits Justin Taylor well…since he’s a master at propaganda.
“To attract people, to win over people to that which I have realized as being true, that is called propaganda. In the beginning there is the understanding, this understanding uses propaganda as a tool to find those men, that shall turn understanding into politics. Success is the important thing. Propaganda is not a matter for average minds, but rather a matter for practitioners. It is not supposed to be lovely or theoretically correct. I do not care if I give wonderful, aesthetically elegant speeches, or speak so that women cry. The point of a political speech is to persuade people of what we think right. I speak differently in the provinces than I do in Berlin, and when I speak in Bayreuth, I say different things than I say in the Pharus Hall. That is a matter of practice, not of theory. We do not want to be a movement of a few straw brains, but rather a movement that can conquer the broad masses. Propaganda should be popular, not intellectually pleasing. It is not the task of propaganda to discover intellectual truths. Those are found in other circumstances, I find them when thinking at my desk, but not in the meeting hall.”
For the propaganda that Justin Taylor spews on his blog I only have one thing to say. It’s a disgrace…if he really were a man he’d act like one and hold other men to a reputable standard. Right now he’s acting like a 7 year old girl in third grade running to the teacher whining, complaining and tattling. But I guess that is what it means to be reformed.
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I read on NPR that Transparency International released its annual Corruption Perception Index.
http://www.transparency.org/
My question is this…..why isn’t Justin Taylor’s New Covenant Bible Church, The Gospel Coalition, Acts 29 or Sovereign Grace ranked by Transparency? If that’s not corruption all I can say is whiskey tango foxtrott to that!
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Dee,
I would think with this post you now need to add Frank Turk to the list of Kevin DeYoung and Carl Trueman who have weighed in with great comments this week. This was a comment Turk made on Justin Taylor’s piece:
“When I read this post, I got a little dizzy. So we should receive a list of rules for how and whether to write as merely constructive, yes? But what if one breaks these rules, or has broken them in the past — should there be some kind of umbrage? From who and by what means?
Or what about someone’s “professionalism”? Are we allowed to criticize one’s professionalism? Or have we crossed the line when we have moved from the unspecific “one should” to “Frank Turk should”? If we have crossed the line by being specific, what has Justin done to Janet Mefferd? If that does not cross the line, did Janet’s sin that she did not back off Mark Driscoll when it was clear he was looking for the exit because his attributions were, at best, merely incidental? Or because Driscoll was doing her a favor and she wasn’t adequately flattered?
It runs round and round like a rodent on a wheel if we keep chasing the questions, but what it really comes back to is this: what are standards, and who gets to police them? More to the point, what happens when those who are supposed to keep the standards think they can do so from behind a curtain, but the practical result is downgrade — a lower standard of attribution, a lower standard of associational accountability, a lower standard of orthodoxy, a lower standard of maturity, and so on?
Is the problem really as Justin phrases it that there are just too many people looking for the Scandal of the Day? Or is the problem actually that the self-appointed gate-keepers have lost sight of the original purpose of the gate, and they now let so much pass by because they are center-bound and not boundary-bound that the gates are simply making things worse?”
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peter lumpkins wrote:
From what I have read on his blog, not just his spiritual pay grade.
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Because he didn’t name names and now you’ve done an article on this, this will all be labeled as gossip, stirring up trouble, yada yada. It’s your fault, Dee. But it’s okay for him to accuse of slander.
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Dontcha just love how he “stands his ground” to support his favorite bully?
Sickening.
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I can’t remember what, if any, position Mr Taylor took in regard to the recent allegations levelled at Mr Mahaney. Certainly, the standard one among the latter’s circle of associates was that they regarded the allegations as just that, and would treat them as such unless and until they were proved in a court of law.
That’s fine, as far as it goes. The principle that an accused person must be innocent until proven guilty is rightly held as essential the world over.
So this person that Taylor refers to as a “known slanderer” (emphasis mine) – has that person ever actually been convicted of slander by any due process? How does he “know” this person is a slanderer? Because if the person has been convicted, it would be quite safe for Taylor to name that person; there would be no need for deniability nor fear of legal repercussions. Nor would there be anything obscure or unclear about Taylor’s position.
Since Justin Taylor is a godly and righteous leader who stands for the truth, we know he would never himself stoop to slander or gossip. Therefore the person he alludes to must be a convicted slanderer. Taylor should name him so that we can be properly warned to beware of this person.
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Is not a false accusation that someone is a slanderer a slander of the accused by the accuser???
The old “when you point a finger at someone, three point back at you!” seems to apply here.
Those who cry “slander” (of “gossip”) need to get a lesson in what is required for a statement to be so labelled. First it must be demonstrably false. Second, it must have been either known to the speaker/writer to be false, or put forth with reckless disregard as to whether it is true or false. Third, it must actually cause damage to the reputation of the person allegedly slandered.
Quite frankly, in most instances where people cry “slander”, the alleged victim’s publicity seeking actions would suggest that they cannot be slandered — that they have an earned reputation that could not be damaged!
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Justin Taylor, along with Don Carson and Kevin DeYoung, were signatories to a statement of support for C.J. Mahaney published on the Gospel Coalition Website. In part the statement reads:
“So the entire legal strategy was dependent on a theory of conspiracy that was more hearsay than anything like reasonable demonstration of culpability. As to the specific matter of C. J. participating in some massive cover-up, the legal evidence was so paltry (more like non-existent) that the judge did not think a trial was even warranted.”
This statement was factually incorrect. After concern with their statement expressed by other members of the Gospel Coalition they added this disclaimer at the bottom of their statement:
“This statement reflects the views of the signatories and does not necessarily speak for other Council members, bloggers, and writers for The Gospel Coalition.”
The statement can be read in its entirety here:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/05/24/why-we-have-been-silent-about-the-sgm-lawsuit/
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I had not seen Nick’s comment at 5:08 am when I wrote mine. His comment is very appropriate and states a better case than mine!
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@ An Attorney:
That’s very generous of you, but actually I think your comment rounds mine out very nicely!
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@ An Attorney:
This is the same reason I make it a rule never to call someone a liar, even idly, in comments or on my blog, unless I have irrefutable proof of that fact, which proof must meet the first two criteria you laid out above. Throwing the words “liar” and “slander” around is fun and sounds really scary, but unfortunately they do still have meaning (or they should). It debases them and takes the oomph out of their valid usage when they’re applied to thinks like constructive criticism, disagreement, etc.
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I would assume that Taylor is referring to Brent Detwiler, especially since Detwiler was publicly denounced as “divisive” by Mickey Connolly, who was on the SGM board at the time. Of course, there’s no way to know who Taylor had in mind without asking him. Why would he make such an ambiguous statement?
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TW wrote:
……….,………….
Bingo! To speak against the self proclaimed annointed is a sin.
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Does it matter that Brent is certainly a suspected slanderer? Party to the blackmailing of Larry T, involved in some mucky de-giftings with pre-prepared statements for pastors to read out that do not always express the truth – even in some of the e-mails in his famous documents, he comes across as threatening and not consistent in his use of information.
I think it is Brent that is being referred to. I agree that to throw this kind of stuff around while child abuse is being investigated is distasteful at best and appallingly sinful at worst: but let’s not kid ourselves, Brent was as much part of setting up the system that allowed and enabled such acts as CJ – he just looks like the hero for how he has posted all his notes and e-mails online.
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The fact is that these so-called men of God refuse to face up to the truth when it comes to their own little band of merry men. They have no problem using public forums to promote themselves but, when called to account for their actions they pull out the old ‘the Bible says these things should be discussed privately’ canard. In short, they want their misdeeds covered up. Never mind that they include covering up sexual abuse, plagiarism, and greed. Instead of discussing the substance of the charges, they turn their guns on those who shine a light on their misdeeds. They absolutely refuse to hold one another accountable, which is why their acts of immorality just seem to multiply. Time and again they demonstrate and complete absence of any moral authority whatsoever.
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Regardless of who he’s referring to and why he thinks they’re a slanderer, Justin Taylor is to dictate to a journalist who she’s allowed to interview. He seems to think that he should be able to dictate who is ‘allowed’ to be listened to. That’s an incredibly arrogant and dangerous attitude to have, especially in someone who has some wider influence.
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http://michaelnewnham.com/?p=14728
#freesaeed
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___
“Honest, My Commentz Twen’t Loaded!”
hmmm…
Justin Taylor, Pleeeeze…put dat proverbial paintball gun down, now… (fore you hurt youzeself)
nuck,nuck, nuck!
(grin)
hahahahahaha
Sopy
___
Comic relief: Moe, Larryy and Curly Interview.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upLYzdCJy_w&feature=youtube_gdata_player
;~)
—
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Lin wrote:
Should read: Bingo! To speak against the self-proclaimed, SELF-annointed is a sin.
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TW wrote:
Great comment.
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@ Bene D: I just updated the post to include your comment-with full attribution, of course!
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Eagle wrote:
“You all upsetting me. I am closing down my comments after making a sweeping statement.”
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TW wrote:
This is all about them. I was struck by something last night. We are reading a bunch in preparation for a fascinating post on how a current Acts 29 church “planer” decimated a healthy church. As I read on their website, they talk and talk and talk about the needs of the planter, his family, his need for rest and good food. They talk very little about those that they are going to minister to. IMO this movement has become an “all about me” pastor movement. And those good churches that are members should take a look at what is said and ask why it is so internal focused.
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Julie Anne wrote:
Well he can stick it up his nose. He made the comment and the comment can only apply to a limited mount of people. So he is accusing one of them. He should either spill it or crawl back into his “no comments” hole.
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@ Anon:This is all about Mahaney. It will always be all about Mahaney. Why? Is it just gospel brotherly love? You decide.
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dee wrote:
All of this behavior reminds me of reading SGM Wiki leaks. Same attitude. Little boys with too much time, money and fame. They never really matured. Everything is show and control. They are emtpy suits.
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dee wrote:
Bingo! This is exactly it. There is an entitlement mentality that is unbelievable. And sadly, it is becoming the norm and pew sitters are not seeing it or their part in it. Many are idolizing the “pastor” or christian leader.
They remind me of the priests in the OT. The parallels are frightening.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
He was one of the three that wrote the infamous Gospel Coalition response which was roundly condemned.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2013/05/24/why-we-have-been-silent-about-the-sgm-lawsuit/Nick Bulbeck wrote:
They act like judge and jury and do no see the hypocrisy in their words.
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An Attorney wrote:
Thank you so much for the clarification on this term. I am coming to the conclusion that some of these guys deliberately misuse this word.
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@ TW: You beat me to it.
Here is another little tidbit. There has been much grousing in certain circles about Boz Tchvidjian’s claim of widespread child sex abuse in the Protestant church. He said it was worse than the Catholic church. If one takes the stats of the Catholic church and divide by the number of adherents and do the same for the Protestants, one might find similar percentages. That is why I think it could be Boz. They are really, really mad at him.
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Marge Sweigart wrote:
Because he is afraid to say the name. That is why I do not think it is Brent. If he is afraid, i bet he is thinking it is Boz.
And oh yeah, for all those thinking this is a gossip fest, remember this. One of your boys started it.
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Jim wrote:
I have been tweeting about this for a long time. I am praying for Saeed.
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Sopwith wrote:
You nailed it.
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dee wrote:
Haven’t you learned anything from Driscoll? Just take down Bene D’s post and update yours with no attribution.
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dee wrote:
Voldemort is a known slanderer?
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Julie Anne wrote:
A God Can Do No Wrong.
“Morals are for men… Not… GODS!”
— Second Star Trek pilot (1966), “Where No Man Has Gone Before”
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dee wrote:
Rank Hath Its Privileges.
And forcing sex on your inferiors IS an ANIMAL Dominance Display.
Penetrator on top, Penetrated on the bottom.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
LOL! Best one today.
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I am wondering why Justin Taylor has been so sensitive to criticism of his colleagues. Are Crossway book sales being adversely affected because Driscoll and Mahaney have come under scrutiny? It is interesting that they have been having a super duper sale this week – 40% or more off everything !!!
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dee wrote:
He thinks he is above saying the name. The point is to take his word for it that a “known slanderer” was on Janet’s show so that others will believe she has no street cred. (He is a non thinker because there are so many illogical holes to jump through in his entire comment. But then, they have never really learned how to think. The indoctrination is all they know. Oh and trot out “unbiblical” and that covers the non thinking)
That is how it works in his evangelical ghetto. He is one of the important people. Young men hang on their every word. And it works well in the ghetto.
Problem is, it is not working in the wider world of blogging. They really are becoming a laughing stock as their petulant behavior and covering for evil deeds becomes an issue. These are the manly men of TGC? Crossway? Please.
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@ Deb:
Look at what authors are 40% off. Boy they really cater to the patriarchal/Neo Calvin crowd And the ESV….the ridiculous hype of the “most literal” translation is wearing off, perhaps?
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@ dee:
I agree. Only Boz poses a real threat to them. He has name recognition now in many more evangelical venues, street cred as a prosecutor/investigator and has been pretty outspoken, etc.
They are not used to it. He is not so easy to malign/marginalize as they normally do in such situations.
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@ Anon 1:
Yep, Voddie Baucham
Look who is in the #1 spot on the most current Crossway blog post: Doug Wilson writes an open letter to Reformed rappers
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@ Deb:
Why would I want to buy books published by Crossway when I see how they view possible/plagiarism and when they are ready to throw victims of abuse under the bus rather than believe that the victims might have a case against a ‘leader’? Justin Taylor is out to protect Crossway.
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@ Anon 1:
Taylor is simply trying to discredit Mefferd, and that without proof as Nick and An Attorney discussed above. I agree, it is unfortunate that many will believe him just because . . .
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@ peter lumpkins:
Yet you accuse others of slander for asking reasonable questions about Ergun Caner?
https://twitter.com/SBC_Tomorrow/status/407927196582281216
A reputable investigative reporter had questions too. http://www.wfaa.com/news/local/Controversy-follows-Baptist-theologian-to-north-Texas-124318149.html
But last summer, Caner’s story started to unravel when skeptics found evidence that despite his claims, the self-proclaimed young Jihadist actually moved to America from Sweden in 1969 — not from Turkey in 1978. Caner grew up looking and acting like most every other kid his age.
The discrepancies proved so damaging that Caner was demoted at Liberty Baptist and is now headed to North Texas to become vice president at Arlington Baptist College, home to 200 students and to perhaps a not-so-welcoming staff.
One faculty member told News 8: “I find it reprehensible that the leadership of the Arlington Baptist College would hire a man who is very clearly profiteering from the tragedy of September 11.”
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@ Anon 1:
Are you saying this is a modern day Judges situation?
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Deb wrote:
“Beat Fluttershy enough and she’ll turn into Rainbow Dash” Baucham?
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The last comment before Justin Taylor closed the thread:
R. Jones:
At that point, Taylor rent his raiment and declared, “Comments are closed.”
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Eagle wrote:
It has been a while but I did a personal study on the Priesthood in the OT and how that morphed into the NT situation. It is amazing how often God sends prophets or rails Himself against corrupt priests OT. However, I do NOT think modern day pastors are like “priests” like in the OT but I DO THINK SOME THINK THEY ARE!
I am a firm believer in the priesthood of believer but I do not think many evangelical pastors today buy into that anymore. They see themselves as “set apart” like the OT priests. I do think history shows that the “church” set up a clergy caste system that has played out as very corrupt for the most part througout history. The bigger problem is that those who defied that system were usually wiped out so history does not record much about them. Marytrs Mirror is a start. It will make you weep, though.
No one in the body of Christ is meant to be “set apart” from his/her fellow believers. For example, elders would be those thrown to the lions first!~ What we have had for centuries is a man made system and tends toward corruption. I see the parallels of what is said in the OT concerning corrupt priests to what we see happening all around us now and historically. There are many who think they are entitled to indoctrinate the rest of us and see themselves as “set apart” as “God’s messengers” to us. As if we cannot have the same Holy Spirit they do.
One would have hoped that the land of the free and home of the brave post enlightenment could have avoided this after the Puritan debacle because they love freedom so much. It seem to work for a while most likely because of Westward expansion and who can control pioneers? (Ha!) But we have become so collectivized that we have been trained to look to others for what to think and to be taken care of in all aspects of life. It is only a natural progression this would happen in the so called evangelical church, too. Couple that with doctrine that says you are so totally depraved you have no volition and need someone to teach you and you have a recipe for tyranny.
What scares me the most about it is not enough people see the tyranny inherent in these guys. Justin Taylor does not know that his comment we are discussing in this thread has quite a bit of ignorant arrogant tyranny within it. He cannot see it because he has been indoctrinated in what to think. It has been all over his posts and comments for while now.
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@ Deb:
This has been the mosst astonishing to me. Doug Wilson? The total fringe of wacko patriarchy and racism and defender of pedophiles. (The slaves were happy, you know according to Wilson) And they (Crossway!) are mainstreaming him. That is how bad it is out there folks. That is just another example of the corruption and tyranny.
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Bridget wrote:
Bridget, to me the problem is that every single comment after his comment should have been asking him why he said “a known slanderer” with no reference. That should be a wake up call to his readers but it really isn’t. Lets see if the Reformed blogosphere lights up with many blog posts asking him, a public figure with a publisher, to clarify and back up his declaration. For them, it is business as usual. This is their normal.
They admire position/movements more than they do truth/basic logic.
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@ Amy Smith:
@ Amy Smith:
@ Amy Smith:
Amy, your problem seems to be you place more credibility on investigative reporters than you do actual facts.
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Scott Shaver wrote:
You are willfully ignorant if you think this man who claimed repeatedly to have grown up in the middle east, trained in jihad, and debated Muslims in Arabic isn’t a liar but merely “misspoke.” And your disdain for the press is typical of fundies like yourself: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/10/18/paige-patterson-warns-against-going-to-court-or-to-the-press/
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Summary of the entire Caner scandal: http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2013/09/11/tonights-service-will-be-live-streamed-630pm-cdt/
Caner unrepentant on twitter: http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2013/05/06/i-categorically-deny-the-charges-those-who-brought-them-ergun-caner/
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As a sexual assault survivor and one-time follower of TGC (no longer and never again after TGC’s demonstrable insensitivity, IMO, to the victims of the SGM scandal), I’ve been profoundly grateful for Boz. He seems to have two allegiances: to Christ and to sexual abuse victims. And he is willing to call a spade a spade. No phony glad-handing, elbow-rubbing or looking the other way.
Even typing this I feel anger rising up inside of me at those who’ve allegedly perpetrated despicable acts in SGM, at those who’ve been in positions of power to help victims and haven’t, and at those at TGC who seem unwilling, again IMO, to examine their own people and biases.
But as a survivor, this anger isn’t new. I experience it weekly, sometimes daily, when I read or hear a news story about a victim who was treated poorly by the police, the justice system or the church. I experience it when I hear a coworker or friend make an uninformed comment about sexual violence. I experience it when I hear a pastor adamantly express that my body doesn’t belong to me, never has and never will, without offering the caveat that God doesn’t force us. I experience it when a politician minces words about “legitimate rape.” I experience it when I think about all of the injustices that have been perpetrated against me, all of my cries in the dark for earthly justice that continue to go unanswered.
And this anger is mine to deal with, to bring before the Jesus who seems safer than the God who I’m afraid of. And I do, most of the time.
If every single person had to live with this anger, all the time, I think more would be done. Because it’s a terrible, terrorizing anger — and should be — with the potential to be motivating and transforming. In it’s purest form, I believe it is a righteous anger.
Instead, the only anger I see demonstrated most often at TGC is a puffed-up anger toward those who dare to be righteously angry.
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I just saw the message at the top of the site. I don’t know why Janet Mefferd has removed the evidence of Driscoll’s plagiarism from her blog, and even deleted the tweets. I hope a lot of people saved the pdfs showing the plagiarism. I only saved one of them.
Maybe Janet Mefferd has given into pressure to delete the posts. This happens. Her show is bankrolled by evangelicals as well as fundamentalists.
Another recent example of caving to pressure that comes to mind is Ken Silva of Apprising Ministries who deleted the posts on his blog about Chuck O’Neal.
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P.S. on Scott Shaver; he is a regular commenter over at SBC Tomorrow.
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Sopwith wrote:
Choking over my coffee here. ;0
One reason I love reading here more than at the Gospelly Coalition is– we have so many originals!
TGC types borrow (sometimes steal) everything from each other. Taylor’s post was a summary of DeYoung’s post, where more commentz were loaded. I especially liked it where Jared (I am not a ghostwriter) Wilson slammed A Amos Love for using a pseudonym. At least A Amos Love is original! He could post under Samuel Twain or Mark Clemens and I’d still know it was him! Same with Sopy or HUG etc etc etc.
But you could take any dozen of the TGC folks and post their article under a pseudonym and I’d have no idea who it was.
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In other news, the Met Office has upgraded its storm warning for Scotland tomorrow from yellow (be aware) to amber (be prepared).
Fortunately, I had already reinforced the roofing felt on the shed, moved the bins to the leeward side of the house and put the loose stuff from the garden into the garage.
I hope this is helpful.
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@ TedS.: Well guess what. Mefferd’s blog is now down. And all tweets regarding DRiscoll have disappeared. It smells legal to me.Thoughts? You seem to be up on this stuff.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I shall stand in my garage and think of you!
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Eagle
I am smelling legal here. I have removed your comment to keep you protected until we know what is going on.
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@ dee: I think you’ll be OK in the house over there. The storm’s not going to be that big.
Unless you make lasagne on a stove in the garage? (It could happen.)
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@ Nick Bulbeck: No. I shall stand in the garage in solidarity with you.
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Sara wrote:
*the only anger I see demonstrated most often BY TGC is…
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@ Sara:
I’m sad that this has been your experience — the abuse and the response to it. Both are debilitating. I completely understand what you are saying about TGC. I pray that the eyes of their heart are opened one day very soon.
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As it seems as though matters Mefferd may be disappearing sub judice, I thought it might be an idea to provide other items of interest (analogous to re-runs of previous finals shown while Wimbledon is waiting for the rain to stop).
It turns out that copper pyjamas can help fight MRSA.
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@ Bridget: Awesome response.
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dee wrote:
This is getting curiouser and curiouser
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On a more serious note, of course, I very much hope this important ministry (and, though unusual, it is important) is not subject to a legal attack.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Oh dear. This is a problem since many other blogs actually posted the documents. Will they all be contacted. We merely linked to her site since I was being lazy.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
I just saw a Law and Order Criminal intent in which they perp was caught because of discolored skin and green tinge on a shirt.
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@ Sara:
Sarah I would trust you more than I would trust most of the pastors I’ve ever met. Why? Because injustice and cruelty make you angry. And that is the appropriate response to it.
Today you will mostly hear from them that are we are all sinners and you must forgive right away. Is nothing less than moral chaos.
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i listened to Janet Mefferd’s show today. She didn’t say a word. At this point, we need to assume that she has been threatened legally.
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dee wrote:
This may be why there hasn’t been a word from Park Fiscal on this since the interview.
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April
Try. A. Bit. Harder. Already. Let’s. Have. A. Discussion. That. Does. Not. Require. Periods. And. All. Caps.
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@ Nicholas: Watch the conversation on @wartwatch (twitter). People seemed confused.
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@ dee:
I find it so strange that some evangelicals are so angry at him for exposing and discussing how rampant the abuse and cover ups are.
They should be angry abuse is happening to start with, not with someone who is pointing out that it’s happening.
I listened to the Janet Mefferd show when she interviewed Boz, and in days after. She sometimes takes phone calls from listeners.
IIRC, Mefferd got a call or two from people who were upset and angry that Boz said that child sexual abuse is just as bad/or worse in Protestant churches than in Catholic churches. I saw a commentator or two at other blogs also angry at him for making this claim.
IMO, one child sex abuse case is one too many, so I don’t even know how relevant it is for some evangelicals to get upset over his claim that it’s more prevalent in evangelical/Protestant churches.
I think it’s troubling period that it happens at all, and that so many churches cover it up and even defend perpetrators of it.
I’m also troubled that a lot of churches are just as apathetic or callous in helping Christians with other types of issues or problems in life, such as wives who are victims of domestic abuse.
A lot of Christians have this attitude that you shouldn’t get help from them.
You will repeatedly hear (if you go to another Christian, or church people, with whatever problem), that you are to “go to church to serve, not be served.”
I would assume a church (a group of believers) is the first place you could and should go for emotional support or money/ practical support, but nope.
There’s very much a “you should pull yourself up by your bootstraps and deal with problems all alone” mindset among a lot of U.S. Christians.
Maybe that’s due to American cultural influence. We’re pushed to be very individualistic and self-sufficient at all costs, all the time.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I remember that the ancient Egyptians thought that their Pharoahs were gods.
Did some Europeans sort of believe the same way about kings, that they were god-like, or were god’s representatives on earth, so they must be obeyed no matter what? Wasn’t that what the “divine right of kings” stuff was about?
I looked it up on Wiki:
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@ Nicholas:
LOL…been called a lot of things, Fundamentalist not one of them until now.
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Daisy wrote:
About this matter of where to go for help, and should it be the church. I have noted that you are good at researching things, and this might me something you could dig up some information on. The only thing I know is that in the town where I live there is a move to get some kinds of “helping” (for want of a better work) away from the churches and into the hands of agencies specifically set up for that purpose. There is a Crisis Control to which many churches contribute money and then refer requests for financial aid. There is a professional christian counseling group with professional counselors with varied backgrounds and credentials to which some churches refer people. And the catholics have Catholic Social Services. I don’t know what all else there is, but there is definitely this moving of certain kinds of needs away from the individual church and toward specific christian agencies set up to handle these things.
Maybe you could find out if this is part of a larger trend across the nation or something.
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@ Nancy:
for want of a better word (obviously). I need new glasses apparently.
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Btw, Scott Shaver’s attack on investigative journalists was not only in defense of Ergun Caner, but in defense of Prestonwood as well: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/search?q=prestonwood
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Chris Rosebrough says that “Janet Mefferd has apologized for her treatment of Mark”: https://twitter.com/piratechristian/status/408332555201437696
She had nothing to apologize for imo.
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dee wrote:
Thanks Dee. Big blitz today to try to get this trending on twitter. Since I no longer have a platform, I’m reduced to spamming on others… 🙂
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Daisy wrote:
Daisy, “Divine Right of Kings” was just how you sneak “The King is a GOD Incarnate” into a monotheism. And one of its biggest proponents was Kynge Jaymes circa 1611.
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Nicholas wrote:
The Blasphemer hath been Put to Silence.
doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunevent.
doubleplusungood ref doubleplusunperson.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_censorship_of_images
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Dave A A wrote:
Total conformity and Groupthink.
Just like the New Soviet Man.
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I hope Janet has not been threatened. She seems to have presented a factual comparison of the texts and asked relevant questions. I do know that when one exposes truths that cast celebrity pastors and institutions in a bad light, there are people willing to threaten and intimidate into silence, or enough to cause the issue to be dropped. I can’t go into too much personal detail, but recently this has happened to me. It is heartbreaking. But I cling to hope in my God who loves me. And I stand strong. And I will press on.
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Nicholas wrote:
Don’t forget Ergun Caner’s predecessor in spirit, George Psalmanazar the Formosan Cannibal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalmanazar
Except Psalmanazar didn’t end up as a consultant for the Anglican Church and British Army regarding Formosa.
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@ Amy Smith:
Somebody check out the sermon on all the Mars Hill satellite Telescreens this Sunday, checking for a Bee Jay Crow of Triumph. (Another body under the ManoGawd’s bus.)
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Nicholas wrote:
Prestonwood who…I don’t remember mentioning Prestonwood. Your eyes are playing tricks on you i fear.
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Scott Shaver wrote:
And what was the nature of this “attack” St. Nick?
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@ Scott Shaver:
It is implicit in your attack on Amy Smith, who has been on of the leading activists in SNAP trying to bring accountability to Prestonwood.
Go back to the rock you crawled out from under. The entire leadership of your filthy cesspool of a denomination belongs behind bars: http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm
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Btw, Scott Shaver’s attack on investigative journalists was not only in defense of Ergun Caner, but in defense of Prestonwood as well:
Are you reading the same thing the rest of us are? This statement had nothing to do with Prestonwood or Caner (unless you want to go there). The statement was directed at the shotgun approach of Amy Smith.
Keep it in context or don’t comment on my comments
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Big words from a small character there baby Nick
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Scott Shaver wrote:
Your own words:
Scott Shaver wrote:
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And little whiners like you deserve 3 hours in a hog trap at the back of somebody’s hunting lease Nick.
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Scott Shaver wrote:
How Christian of you.
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@ Eagle:
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Doesn’t appear that I’m dealing with one here…so when in Rome
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Maybe Janet Medford simply remembered; she hosts a radio program, not a “discernment blog.”
*
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Scott Shaver wrote:
Questioning other people’s salvation? Nice.
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Eagle wrote:
🙁
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I’m not questioning your salvation Nick, you twit, I’m questioning your ability to interact constructively with other believers on blog posts.
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dee wrote:
Mark Driscoll, pastor of Seattle, Washington’s Mars Hill Church, must have been very thankful for his friends in the Christian publishing world on Thanksgiving. Since he was asked some tough questions about some passages in his latest book, A Call to Resurgence, which gave insufficient citation to one of his sources, they’ve been circling the wagons around their author…
http://capthk.com/2013/12/04/journalist-accused-of-committing-sin-of-journalism
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That’s too bad that Mefferd caved in to what I don’t doubt was Driscoll’s legal team threatening lawsuits. I am sure he was threatening to sue over slander.
Sometimes, truth and justice do not win. I bet part of the settlement was that she would apologize and not say anything about the lawsuit.
Everyone should think about this as they support Driscoll and his great cover-up machine.
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@ Scott Shaver: Scott
Could we please take it down a notch. I was really upset when the Ergun Caner thing came up because i knew, no matter what, it would become World War C/NC. The Calvinists hate Caner and the nonCalvinists love Caner or so the story goes.
Peter knows how I feel about Caner-we had it out a long time ago. I know why he feels the way that he does even though I do not feel the same way. I was hoping that he and I could come to a place of peace with one another since I admire him for the stand that he took in the SBC with the child sex abuse initiative. I fear that even that could be turned into WWC/NC Part 2.
I have been accused by some who say I am a Calvinist. Others say I am bound for hell because I am not a Calvinist. Looks like I have managed to miff off everyone. If I am neither a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist then what in the world am i?
Could we please get off the Ergun Caner thing? We are about to expose an Acts 29 church decimation which will not make us many friends. Combined with the Mark Driscoll thing, Vision Forum, Justin Taylor bringing up SGM again and calling someone a “known slanderer” and sermon scriptwriters, I have enough controversy to last a life time.
And I love Nick. he has been a kind, thoughtful person who has the uncanny ability to make everyone laugh. If that is what a twit is, then i want this blog to be filled with twits. I hope that I am one as well.
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The apparent actions towards Janet Mefford remind me of Scientology’s legal threats towards journalists.
Yeah, I went there.
Seriously, you guys trying to hide the truth by threatening people for committing the sin of journalism, you deserve all the criticism coming your way. Plagiarism is a big deal and threatening your way out of the conseqences will have other consequences.
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I apologize for and retract my comments in the second paragraph here: @ Nicholas:
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@ Anon: I am so upset about this i can barely stand it. They love SGM. Now they protect Driscoll. That is the state of evangelical affairs here in the USA and this is not the faith that I found as a teenager many years ago. It is so, so sad.
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@ Nicholas: You are a kind and decent man who has steadfastly stood against child sex abuse. I, too, have had my moments as my husband will attest. Its OK and your apology speaks to your spirit.
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@ Jim: Oh please, spam away. I heard that there are over 30,000 people who have been tweeting on this today. I am so glad. I have been tweeting about him for over a year.
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@ Scott Shaver:
Please see Nick’s retraction.
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Unfortunately, Justin Taylor is usually not one to admit fault very quickly at all. I have known him for years and recognize the same arrogance and lack of teachability in my own heart(which is why I recognizeit so clearly in him). _He is aproduct of the YRR machine and tows the party line to a “T”. He “rules” with a bit of an iron fist with regards to comments which is his perrogative on his blog. @ Eagle:
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@ Nancy:
I’m not sure what I would look up for that, what search terms to use. Would “Christian outsourcing” work?
It’s not even that I’m against churches referring people to non-church entities depending on the situation and particular personalities involved, because sometimes, some Christians are complete imbeciles on some issues.
For instance, if you have clinical depression and go to church folk for help, nine out of ten times, you will face insult, stupid advice, such as “have more faith, and read your Bible more and God will heal you”.
In such cases, it might be better for the Christian to skip consulting with church people altogether and go straight to a psychologist / psychiatrist of their own choosing.
Women who are being abused by their spouse seem to be told frequently, when they go to church people, to simply return the abuser and submit to him more and keep praying.
When a Non Christian service will generally encourage them to leave the jerk and provide a room at a shelter, if the woman chooses to leave.
I do think Christians should be able to go to church people for emotional support, though, or practical help.
They should be willing to help an abused woman, for example, by paying for a hotel room for a few weeks to help her get away from the abuser. (Not tell her to ‘submit more and pray abou it,’ but give her money so she can get away.)
You should be able to go to other Christians for at least basic support, but most are unwilling to do anything, not even listen to you pour out your heart over a two hour coffee or tea about a loss you’ve dealt with.
And I have, over my life, practiced what I preach (when and where I can help people I have personally known, I have helped them, either by giving them money if they needed it, or by listening to them cry, talk, about some loss or what not.)
I have seen a willingness by some Christians to do things like send funds to African orphans, which is swell, but those same Christians who cry about orphans and write checks for water wells to be built in Africa…
Do not want to spend two hours over a cup of tea with a Church friend whose husband just divorced her after 32 years of marriage who needs to talk about the pain.
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I have a copy of Carson’s New Bible Commentary. If I can get my hands on Driscoll’s books, I’m going to go plagiarism hunting. This isn’t going to go away Marky Mark.
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He’s talking about Brent Detwiler
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Nicholas wrote:
Southern Baptists do have problems (I don’t agree with their asking women to “graciously submit to their spouses” thing, either). I was brought up in the SBC.
But some of the “everyday Joe’s” in SBCs are okay people.
There are a lot of sweet, white haired old granny ladies who are SBC, for example.
My deceased Mom, the sweetest person you could ever know, and her mom (my grandmother) were SBC. My grandmother was a very godly, loving, sweet woman, too.
I’m not sure how many rank- and- file SBCs are aware of some of the controversies and stuff that go on. A lot of them are these nice white haired old ladies who just show up to church services on Sundays, who teach VBS and stuff.
My impression is that a lot of SBCs are good ol’ boy, nice folks, salt of the earth types, who don’t pay attention to church politics.
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Seneca wrote:
The two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
Often people who host radio or TV shows publish, or air, exposes on corruption and abuse (abuse of power, or abuse of children).
It’s not off base for a Christian radio host to air segments exposing someone who apparently steals from other people’s written works.
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@ Caleb W:
With the caution that if you’re looking for plagiarism, you’ll probably find it.
In a controversial development, I looked through Janet Mefferd’s stuff and was less than convinced with some of it, tbh. (The three personality categories common to both books were interesting – if they aren’t widely used in psychological or similar circles, then there is a case to answer.)
Continuing tbh, and in a further controversial development, I’m not all that bothered about allegations that Fiscal has plagiarised. It’s not that plagiarism isn’t serious, it’s that his openly declared ideas about what being a “pastor” involves are more serious imho. His fans would likely buy his stuff regardless, because they’re not buying his research but his brand. If no-one wants to sue him then that will be that.
Ensuring that Fiscal’s output isn’t plagiarised is a bit like fastening the seat belts in a plane whose engines are all on fire.
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Seneca wrote:
And your point is?
My thought is she had to cave in to radio executives and sponsors who wanted her to back off – the danger of operating in a small niche media where the range of sponsors is very narrow and able to exert pressure on a media member dependent on those sponsors.
Blogs, “discernment” or otherwise, that do not accept advertising are subject to no such pressures that have nothing to do with the truth of what they say and which golden calf may be gored by it.
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Janet Mefferd discussing why she removed the Driscoll interview and so on (her comments about the Driscoll stuff starts around 5:27):
Hour 2- Jim Mason from the Home School Legal Defense Association joins Janet.
Mefferd apologized. But she had nothing to apologize for. 🙁
She sounded like she was reading from a written statement, which makes me wonder if that was written by a boss who forced her to read it?
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Seneca wrote:
She has a background as an investigative reporter. And this is all in line with the usual fare on her show.
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We need more Sharyl Attkissons in the evangelical world, pursuing and reporting the truth relentlessly, uncovering the darkness wherever it is found, small to mega, celebrity, or not.
Sharyl Attkisson embodies everything the media is supposed to be: tireless, tenacious, truth-driven, and utterly fearless. Despite knowing well how the Obama administration treats reporters who get in the way, Attkisson has nevertheless refused to let the White House off the hook for its systematic stonewalling. Today, she took to Twitter to remind her followers that the White House has a major transparency problem — and she didn’t hold back:
http://twitchy.com/2013/12/04/shes-got-the-sledgehammer-out-sharyl-attkisson-nails-wh-for-withholding-info/#.Up-9Xk0v538.twitter
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tracy wrote:
Tracy, are you in the inside? If not, who is your source?
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theologian wrote:
Thanks for your comment. I’ve heard the same.
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@ Nick:
I could only access the one from the Peter book and it looked pretty flagrant to me. Can’t speak to the other stuff though. Truth be told I’m actually not that interested in following Mark Driscoll closely at the moment, because I have all the Doug Phillips/Vision Forum stuff to deal with.
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I put up a “Storify” compiling a variety of key tweets/blog links for the Mefford/Driscoll story today: http://t.co/SQGyt2ZPKG
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Dee/Deb, of all the things you ladies have posted over the years, this one probably makes me more sick that anything else(don’t misunderstand….I’m agreeing with you). Beyond despicable what Taylor / Driscoll / and the other YRR clowns are doing. They’re the KGB. Truth be damned. Ethics be damned. None of that matters. All that matters is protecting the brand. Beyond sickening. Does Christianity even matter anymore to these guys? Above all, we desperately need for the two of you to keep up your important work. We need that now more than ever. Someone has to call these dogs into account. Sorry, didn’t mean to offend dogs.
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Scott Shaver wrote:
Must be tough when you have no truth on your side and thus simply resort to ad hominen attacks.
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I just listened to Janet Mefferd’s apology to Driscoll. She said that “the interview should not have occured at all” and that she should not have brought Driscoll’s plagiarism “to the public’s attention.” This about face is bizarre! I think Mark’s Hill and Tyndale House mustered their “legal” resources on this one, and somebody also probably threatened to pull financial support for the Janet Mefferd show.
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If this was over just the Driscoll thing, why are all the blog posts about SGM also gone?
Something doesn’t smell right.
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@ Invalid_Nate:
This may be why: thewartburgwatch.com/2013/10/08/is-janet-mefferd-being-intimidated-by-the-gospel-mafia-to-shut-up-about-sgm/
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@ Nicholas: threatened lawsuit, most likely.
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@ tracy:
I agree. Taylor seems to have kind of Biblical Manhood manliness to go after someone like Detwiler who, controversial figure that he is, drew the line in regards to Mahaney & SGM. Makes sense Taylor would refer to him as a slanderer considering he’s in Mahaney’s camp.
The sooner guys like Taylor are marginalized the better. He’s getting himself into trouble. And where will his help come from when he needs it? From guys like Mahaney? Good luck with that.
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Typo. Sorry. My phone changed Detwiler to Detailer.
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@ Nicholas:
Really? I listened to the whole program. Yes, she pressed him but seriously, this is Mark Driscoll we’re talking about. Isn’t that his thing? To go around pressing himself into things like he did at Strange Fire? Or when he goes on the attack like he often does? I would have thought Mefferd was a stronger woman than that. I blame her complementarianism for this. There are a thousand women who would gladly stand up to Driscoll and defend the hill rather than yield an inch to that man. I’m disappointed in Mefferd. Hope she regains her courage on this.
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@ Evie: Corrected it for you. 🙂
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Regarding the Driscoll circus, a thoughtful article worth a read, and a thought-provoking discussion worth a listen:
http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/12/04/areopagitica/
http://toddpruitt.blogspot.com/2013/12/too-big-to-fail.html
Another of the many reasons why I am deeply thankful for TWW is that this is a pure labor of love, done in your own free time, a truly free press. I don’t always agree with your perspectives, but I am never troubled by your motives, which is far more than I can say for the Christian businessmen running T4G, TGC, Acts29, Crossway, Tyndale, etc. etc.
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@ pcapastor:
“a pure labor of love, done in your own free time, a truly free press.”
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Indeed.
i’m not one to pluck a verse out of context like a hallmark card, but i have shining stars on the mind (having just said to my son, “bye, hon’. have a good day at school. don’t forget — you’re a star. A shining star.”)
“among a crooked generation among whom you shine like stars in the universe” (Philippians 2….)
this is you, dee and deb.
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@ Deb:
Thanks Deb 🙂
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Alan wrote:
Okay smart guy, what would like to discuss apart from your understanding of “ad hominem”?
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dee wrote:
I believe, in context, that I responded to a request that I “crawl back under my rock” and for added measure, “belong in jail with the rest of SBCrs”.
Who needs to take it down a notch Dee?
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@ Scott Shaver: He retracted. That is all I am asking. Please?
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__
Dee: “f I am neither a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist then what in the world am i?”
Answer: “His”
…who confesses Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father who is in heaven. ~Jesus
;~)
—
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This just up at Throckmorton; very blunt: http://www.patheos.com/blogs/warrenthrockmorton/2013/12/05/ingrid-schlueter-resigns-from-janet-mefferd-show-over-mark-driscoll-plagiarism-controversy/
However, the link to SSB is dead and the whole thread is gone. Julie Anne?
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@ Scott Shaver:
A word to the wise. The Elevation Church Poe-isms contributed by Tim Lawing (e.g. here) are funny.
Yours aren’t.
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Scott Shaver wrote:
Plausible Deniability, probably of the “I didn’t use the name ‘Prestonwood’ and you can’t prove I did” manner.
Growing up with a narcissist/sociopath, you become very familiar with all the indicators of gaslighting.
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Bob Jones University has tweeted, and Janet Mefferd retweeted, that she is speaking at the BJU campus today and tomorrow: https://twitter.com/BJU_PR/status/408599576837242880
I posted previously about Mefferd’s connection to BJU here:
http://peelingbackthecurtain.blogspot.com/2013/11/my-comments-at-wartburg-watch.html
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Okay, have it your way Freud (or headless unicorn guy), let’s include Prestonwood in your hyteria…what’s your point mr. headless?
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Nobody on this end is attempting to entertain you.
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dee wrote:
Yes, he retracted but he was never once asked to “take it down a notch.”
Subsequently, you will find very little response to him (if any)from me following your request. I really don’t understand what your pleading for.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Was the narcicissistic sociopath your mother or your father?
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dee wrote:
Why am I getting or why would I care about the rationale of this statement? I have no idea what you mean by an “Acts 29 decimation” (whatever Acts 29 is) and do not find Nick (at first impression) to either “kind” or “thoughtful”.
Guess we all see the world a little diffently.
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@ Scott Shaver:
Neither . . . a sibling who played everyone; if I remember correctly.
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Bridget wrote:
You mean he’s that angry and bent out of shape over a sibling?
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Dontcha just love when these guys make these forceful broad brush anonymous accusations….so basically I can pick whoever I don’t like that Janet has ever had on her show, and say LOOK Justin agrees this person is a slanderer!
They do this all the time too. All it does is throw gas on the fire and then they curse us nasty bloggers all out for the increase in heat. DOH.
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Bene D wrote:
And Mark Driscoll was interviewed on November 21, 2013. 🙂
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@ pcapastor:
You beat me to posting this most excellent article by Carl Trueman at First Thoughts! This bears repeating.
He writes: “That is why the health of the Christian subcultures in our society depends to an important extent upon the freedom of the Christian press; and that in turn depends upon having plenty of public voices and different groups presenting their different perspectives without the threat of being silenced by those with power and money.” -C. Trueman
He ends his article with this excellent by John Milton regarding truth: “Let her and Falsehood grapple; who ever knew Truth put to the worse in a free and open encounter? Her confuting is the best and surest suppressing.”
“I am with Milton here: The freer the press, the less the innocent have to fear and the more the guilty need to be worried.” -C. Trueman
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Scott Shaver wrote:
I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, since great effort is being made on that end to entertain someone. But if you tell me it’s just Scott entertaining Scott, I’ll believe you. Well, carry on – I don’t think you’re doing any harm, though really that’s for Deebs to judge here – but I’ll stick with Tim. He’s much better value!
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This is the troubling reality of the personality-based leadership that encompasses much of American evangelicalism. Often, charisma and dynamic communication skills trump character and integrity as popular appeal wins the day. And for those of us who wish it were otherwise, there is no court of appeal with the authority to hear our case. Replete with positives, this remains one of the great weaknesses of contemporary evangelicalism.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/anxiousbench/2013/12/plagiarism-personality-driven-leadership-and-the-problem-with-evangelicalism/#sthash.PLspLT68.dpuf
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I really wish someone would hack into the Mars Hill broadcast to their Satellite Telescreens and substitute Tom Lehrer’s “Lobachevsky” (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXlfXirQF3A) for the audio. Can you imagine Big Brother Driscoll’s larger-than-life mug on the Telescreen and Tom Lehrer’s song over the concert-level speakers?
“You must Plagiarize!
Let no one else’s work evade your eyes!
Remember why the good LORD made your eyes!
So don’t shade your eyes!
(only be sure to call it please, Research…)”
PLAGIARIZE! PLAGIARIZE! PLAGIARIZE!
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I’ve never been to this site before, but after a few minutes of browsing I’m glad…This is a cesspool of gossip and hatred towards brothers and sisters in Christ. We live in a world where ~150,000 people die a day and all we evangelicals can do is get on blogs to argue and tear down others. Seriously? Is hearing “Well done good and faithful servant, you destroyed your brother” the goal? Not so much…
Driscoll, Acts 29, etc are making a positive impact for the advance of the gospel. Do they do it perfectly? No! Have they made mistakes? Surely! But thank God for His grace and that He uses sinful people to accomplish His purposes (see: the Bible).
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Scott wrote:
Yawn….If you want to make an impact, please think for yourself and do not use tired phrases that have been overused. Instead, be smart. Give an example and rebut. It would go a long way in showing you really know your stuff. Instead, you come off as another boring fan boy.
Scott wrote:
I want examples not broad statements that say little.
Scott wrote:
Did you know that those sinful people publicly admitted to their sins? (See:Bible). Has that happened here?
Also, please note that we allow your dissenting opinion here. Why don’t you take a look at Acts 29 or Driscoll and see if they allow dissenting opinions to be posted on their website.
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@ Scott:
It would be nice if you applied your above thinking to:
Scott Shaver wrote:
I have the advantage of having been interacting with HUG for a few years now. If you took the time to stick around and read for awhile you might come to some understandings about people. But if you’re only here for a quick drive-by to assert your displeasure, then you probably aren’t going glean or grow much.
BTW – your last comment to me re HUG was appalling (if you stop to think about it). HUG also isn’t a public figure out promoting himself as a Christian Leader(TM). However, he may actually have more integrity than some of those Christian Leaders(TM) 🙂
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@ Bridget: Bridget wrote:
Great comment.
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Scott wrote:
ROFL !!!!!!!!!! That was almost Pythonesque.
It’s nearly as funny as the chappie who posted the other day something like Denominations are Wrong! There is no salvation in creeds or anybody’s theology! YOU’RE ALL INVITED TO MY BLOG INSTEAD
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Here’s the one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
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Scott wrote:
No, they aren’t
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Scott wrote:
Legitimate and Well Deserved Criticism of Driscoll and similarly misbehaving preachers = “gossip and hatred”
😆
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@ Scott:
P.S. Regarding: “cesspool of gossip and hatred”
You forgot “wretched hive of scum and villainy”
😆
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Daisy wrote:
🙂
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Daisy wrote:
Perhaps we need to rename TWW to Mos Eisley? 🙂
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@ JeffT:
These aren’t the boids Scott’s looking for. He can go about his business.
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From point 3 Above:
“I probably should have kept this opinion to myself”
I agree. Justin Taylor has added himself to the long list of supposed Godly masculine men who whine and cry “slander” over an interview that they believe painted a friend and business partner in a less-than-positive light, yet have no words of comfort or prayers for sex abuse victims affiliated with the celebrity pastor in question. Most of these victims are women and children they’ve melodramatically sworn to protect even if it means giving up their seats on the Titanic’s lifeboat.
Justin Taylor and his compadres are not men. They’re little boys who’ve been caught doing very bad things.
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Scott Shaver wrote:
Well, since you failed to address my statement in your reply, I guess there isn’t much to discuss. Like I stated, must be tough when you can’t argue a side and reort to childish name calling. I see why you fit in so well with the YRR crowd.
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Scott wrote:
Scott, this a very dangerous assertion that you make. I know this line well though. I used to hear it from the “pastor” at the A29 “Church” I formerly attended. The theory goes: “hey, the gospel is being preached, so who cares. Nobody is perfect.” Here’s why that’ s a faulty argument. It ignores much of the NT. If preaching the gospel is all that mattered, then the NT would be quite short. If preaching the gospel is all that mattered, then why the list of character requirements in Titus a1 Timothy? It also reeks of gnosticism. All that matters is the doctrine you believe. How you actually live your life doesn’t matter. Sorry, but that’s not Christianity.
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5 Comments not approved. You know who you are.
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@ Alan: See comment below. It will explain it all. And you would not have benefitted from the response. It was not dialogue.
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dee wrote:
Dang! My evil alter-ego has been at it again. Can’t let him out of my sight for a minute.
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In other news, there continues to be no need whatever to discuss cricket.
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Daisy wrote:
Ees Mars hill Party Line, Comrade.