Dino Rizzo, Stovall Weems, and Steven Furtick: Banking on the ARC?

Leave no authority existing not responsible to the people. -Thomas Jefferson link

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Recently, I was told by a reporter from World Magazine, "You don't look like a troublemaker." I have thought about those words quite bit in the last few days. I have always believed that churches and their pastors, for better or worse, are lights in this world. They vie for the attention of an increasingly secularized culture, asking people to "Look at us." "We will introduce you to Jesus." "We are the role models for the rest of you." So, the world looks to the light and sometimes sees things that are troubling. This video says it most clearly.

If a church, pastor or group is proud of their work, they will have no trouble being exposed to the light. The ones who are uncomfortable with the exposure need to consider why. 

Who is Dino Rizzo and why is/was he (who the heck knows) on Steven Furtick's compensation committee?

From the Christian Post, 10/30/13 link we read that the 2012 Elevation annual report does not list the committee members. 

The 2011 annual report also discloses the names of the men who comprise Elevation Church's Board of Elders:

"Pastor Dino Rizzo (Healing Place Church – Baton Rough, LA), Dr. Jack Graham (Prestonwood Baptist Church – Plano, TX), Pastor Perry Noble (Newspring Church – Anderson, SC), Pastor Kevin Gerald (Champions Centre – Seattle, WA), Pastor Stovall Weems (Celebration Church – Jacksonville, FL), [and] Pastor Steven also serves on the Board, but does not vote on his salary."

Also, it is strongly suggested by a number of sources that Pastor Steven gets to pick who serves on his compensation committee. From the same Christian Post article:

The Board of Overseers members were personally recruited by Pastor Furtick

In my opinion, it is not unreasonable to assume that Furtick made quite sure that the pastors who would approve his salary are pastors like him. That is, he wants high living pastors who are making bank on their affiliation as lead pastors in churches. For example, another committee member, Stovall Weems, lives quite well in the Jacksonville area in a house assessed at over $800,000. Here is a link to the City of Jacksonville's Property Appraiser's Office. Check for the listing under Charles S Weems IV.

So what's the deal with Dino? He is no longer at the church he founded, Healing Place Church (HPC) in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Sometime in the summer of 2012, Rizzo stepped down from his pastorate and the reasons given for this move are a bit sketchy. Here is a report from Charisma News.

"I have not felt myself, spiritually, physically or emotionally for several months now,” says Rizzo, senior pastor of Healing Place Church. "My physically exhausted, spiritually depleted state has affected my decision-making, my family life and my ability to lead effectively."

Apprising Ministries added this tidbit.

The Rizzos took a leave of absence in late July at the behest of the church’s spirituality board because they needed “a sabbatical rest for healing, reflection and restoration of spirit, soul and body,” according to a statement from the board… 

The Christian Post chimed in with this. Look carefully at the last two paragraphs. The Healing Place has "overseers?"

Rizzo told the congregation on Sunday, according to The Advocate, that he has "needed a lot of mercy and a lot of grace" over the last couple of months. "To those I have disappointed, I want to say forgive me. I'm sorry if I've ever disappointed you as pastor."

Though many in the church were shocked, Chris Hodges,(ed. note:pastor of the Highlands in Birmingham) one of Healing Place Church's overseers, indicated to the congregation that no additional details would be given about the Rizzos.

"I know you want more than what's being said here today but can you be OK that the seven of us (overseers) know?" Hodges asked, according to The Advocate. "We're going to take care of them and we're going to take care of you. Trust me."

Before we get to the "Overseers", let's take a look at a couple of other pieces of information.

As usual, there is more to this story and, unfortunately, it is the same old, same old. It appears that Rizzo resigned when an affair with a church employee came to light. Here is the story from My Cult Life. It does not appear that Rizzo stepped down "voluntarily" (as was said in the statement). It does appear that the real issues in this story were concealed from the church members. We will answer who may have concealed it momentarily.

However, rumors have circulating since late July on Louisiana message boards that Rizzo was having an affair with a former intern. What’s worse is, the church board allegedly paid the young woman to move back to her home state to cover the incident up 

Update 9/17/12 1:32 pm: Tiger Droppings has named the alleged woman involved. According to the message board, Healing Place Church removed her name and image from the website. The Wayback Machine still has proof, though.

Update 9/17/12 2:06 pm: Local church leaders were informed on Sunday of the inappropriate relationship with a staff member. Leaders were informed that Dino would read a statement about the infidelity on Sunday, but he did not.

As Dino and his wife were spirited out of town, his house was put up for sale. Folks, ya gotta love it! This has to be why Dino was on the compensation committee. Here is link to his humble abode. Furthermore, it does appear that Dino and Delynn Rizzo's names are still tied financially to the ministry and its finances link.

What Healing Place church members don’t know is that Dino Rizzo is still listed as an officer. According to the Secretary of State’s site, there have been no amendments to any of the non-profits listed removing Dino or DeLynn Rizzo. In fact, no changes have been made since 2009. If Dino had really resigned, wouldn’t he have been removed from HPC and the ministries entirely?

Dee has a big question. Why are so many non-profits and church ownership often tied up with the names of pastors? Thoughts, anyone?

Recap:

  • Dino had an affair.
  • Dino stepped down and did not cop to the affair.
  • Dino lived quite well.

Whoops, almost forgot. Here is a tweet from Steven Furtick on the matter link.

Several well-known evangelical leaders have offered their support for the Rizzos via Twitter since their resignation.

We love you "@dinorizzo & @delynnrizzo," tweeted Steven Furtick, lead pastor of Elevation Church in Charlotte, N.C.

So, who is this Chris Hodges and why should we trust him with the Dino and Delynn Rizzo comeback tour?

From the Apprising Ministries link above we read the following statement  to the Healing Place congregation by Chris Hodges

“I know you want more than what’s being said here today — but can you be OK that the seven of us (overseers) know?” Hodges asked. “We’re going to take care of them and we’re going to take care of you. Trust me.” (source)

Translation: Don't ask because we won't tell. In other words, the people, who got sucked into Healing Place Church and got healing by giving tons of dough to the church, have absolutely no right to know anything. This outside group is going to "take care of it" and the church members are told to "trust them." Doesn't anyone stand up and ask why in the world should they "trust" these outsiders?

What is the ARC?

Did you know that Acts 29, the Resurgence, and The Gospel Coalition are not the only games in town? These pastor sponsored groups are proliferating. Welcome to the ARC, an Association of Relational Churches link.

We are an association of relational churches working with church planters and church leaders to provide support, guidance and resources to launch and grow life-giving churches.

On the surface , this appears to be a group that helps pastors start churches. Headed by Greg Surratt, the six founders of this group include Chris Hodges and Dino Rizzo link. So, the plot thickens. (As an aside, TWW has been informed, by a reliable source, that Chris Hodges, head pastor of The Highlands in the Birmingham area, also lives very, very well.)

According to their website link, there is definitely some money in play here.

The organization maintains an annual funding base of $2 million dollars with ARC churches giving over $8 million a year to missions. Today, over 400 churches strong, ARC has become not only a movement, but a collection of many “tribes” – all with a focus of planting those 2000 churches and impacting the world!

How does ARC work? Do they control the local church?

ARC appears to have some "authority" over the local church link. Per usual in these sorts of group, that authority is not defined.

Each member church shall have self-governing privileges in harmony with the authority and vision of the Leadership Team of ARC.

Also, note that in this section of their bylaws, it seems to give "authority" over "endowments for special purposes." Once again, it is ill-defined.

The Board of Directors may establish on behalf of the ARC any endowments for the general purposes or for any special purpose of the ARC.

For Elevation members, it might be of note that Stovall Weems, another member of Furtick's board, is also a member of the Arc's Board of Directors link. So, he is a double overseer. How cool is that?

To prove just how much power ARC has over the HPC, and most likely other member churches, read this straight from the ARC.

In May of 2013 the Overseers of HPC, along with the church Trustees and Elders, installed Mike Haman to be the new senior pastor. Mike was already serving in a senior role and has been a spiritual son to Pastor Dino for many years.

Did you catch is? The "Overseers", listed first, along with the elders installed the next pastor of Healing Place!

So how did the ARC handle Dino, one of their ARC founding buddies?

Very, very well. Would it surprise you to know that Dino is back preaching? Finally, the ARC admitted that Rizzo had a "brief" (whatever that means) "inappropriate" (whatever that means) relationship with a woman. Once again, read about their authority link

When the situation came to light, the Overseers of the church – including Chris Hodges, Rob Ketterling, John Siebeling and Stovall Weems – assumed responsibility to guide the church and the Rizzo's to healing and restoration.​

But, there appears to be some pushback about the definition of "brief" link.

The affair between Kaycee Morgan Smith and Dino Rizzo wasn’t short-lived, nor was it an inappropriate friendship. It lasted at least a year and sources say that he furnished her with a luxury apartment during that time in Perkins Rowe. 

What about her salary? Kaycee was indeed on the HPC staff and it’s rumored she made quite a large salary; more than some pastors at the same church. Kaycee played the role of Dino’s personal assistant when they traveled the world. He requested her to go on trips.

So how did this all get exposed after Dino had clearly hidden it for a year? Someone found texts between Dino and Kaycee on Dino’s phone. The person confronted Dino about them and Dino in turn, said it was none of his business and threatened him. The person went further, though, and spoke up to the church presbyters who turned a deaf ear. It’s no coincidence that DeLynn Rizzo’s father, Wayne Austin, was one of the three presbyters that were told that day. Wayne Austin was also the marriage counselor Chris Hodges mentioned in his sermon last Wednesday that ‘restored Dino and DeLynn.’ 

There also seems to be some equivocating on the nature of the relationship. Chris Hodges told AL.com that the Overseers are in charge and that is was a "friendship."

 it was during that time that Dino got involved in the early stages of a brief but inappropriate friendship with another woman. When the situation came to light, I and the other overseers at HPC got involved. It was our responsibility. We guided the church over the past year through healing and restoration."

Once again, who is running the show? It is definitely not the people who gave money and time to HPC.

So, the question remains: Should you trust the Overseers to tell the full story or give it a light touch because, after all, he is one of theirs?

They determined this "punishment" for Rizzo link.

They also felt it was important for him to step down from public ministry for one year,  followed by a year of supervised ministry before he would be considered fully restored. The list of personal benchmarks that Dino was asked to fulfill was thirty-one items long and over the past year, he and Delynn have accomplished each one of them. 

There are obvious questions that should be answered. Did he get paid during this time? What do they mean by "public" ministry?

Dino now gets to hang out with his BFF, Chris Hodges at The Highlands!

Guess what? Dino now has two jobs. And all is well, neatly handled, not by the church, but by the Overlords Overseers.

Dino and Delynn will be moving to Birmingham for the next year of supervised ministry. Dino will be serving on staff at Church of the Highlands for one year and also serving part-time for the ARC (Association of Related Churches) assisting the team in providing pastoral care for the hundreds of church planters that have planted through the ARC.

In July, the ARC board of directors met for our annual board meeting and – based on the recommendation of the Overseers – formally installed Dino back into this season of ministry.

Steven Furtick and his church are not currently members of the ARC. But, Furtick has been known to speak at their functions link and has two members of the ARC's Board of Directors on his compensation committee. Elevation has even adopted the lingo link.

…who controls the compensation of the Executive Staff?  The answer to that question was “The board of Overseers sets Pastor Steven’s salary. 
 
The third question asked was who approves the “major” purchases.  The answer to this question was “All purchases over $1 million must be approved by the Board of Overseers.  The board also approves an annual capital budget to guide annual capital expenditures. Each ministry department head approves all other purchasing within their department and budgets are reviewed monthly”.  

In the end, it does not surprise me that members of Elevation have little say in the matter of how their church is run or their pastor is paid. They, too, are firmly in the hands of Overseers who live well and take care of their own. 

Stop Giving Money Until They Treat You Like an Adult

I have one piece of advice for those of you who believe that members should have some say in their church. Stop giving money until you are treated like you actually matter to the juggernaut. Oh yeah, ask yourself this question. If you did something like this, do you think the ARC would swoop in to take care of you? If not, why not? You are, after all, the one who is giving the money…

Lydia's Corner: Ecclesiastes 10:1-12:14 2 Corinthians 8:1-15 Psalm 49:1-20 Proverbs 22:20-21

Comments

Dino Rizzo, Stovall Weems, and Steven Furtick: Banking on the ARC? — 168 Comments

  1. Do you believe a Pastor can be restored after an affair? If you do, what would your stipulations be?

  2. So what is the problem? I thought that “real men” did this sort of thing. No. Wait. Real men only engage in inappropriate sexual behavior with their wives. My bad.

  3. This isn’t an original thought; I read another person’s comment regarding restoration after sexual abuse of a child. The question was, can a person who perpetrated such horrific deeds ever be trusted in fellowship again? The offered response was that spectacular sin required spectacular repentance. Full disclosure, full ownership. Nothing less. So start there. 1 Timothy 5:19-20, which deals with discipline of errant elders, eliminates steps one and two of Matthew 18 (going with one, then two or three, witnesses to confront the pastor/elder) and instead demands public rebuke before all. Instead, mega-leadership appears to whitewash and hide the sins of the leaders while publicly rebuking those who have simply stepped on their pride or authority. It’s cowardly and repugnant. The behavior is unworthy of a real man, let alone a real leader.

  4. Nancy wrote:

    So what is the problem? I thought that “real men” did this sort of thing. No. Wait. Real men only engage in inappropriate sexual behavior with their wives. My bad.

    Wait, wait…am I missing something here? Is there inappropriate sexual behavior with our wives now?

  5. @ Jeremy: This is an easy question for me to answer. The reason is that I had a pastor who went through this and modeled it for the church. Unfortunately, with the mega-idols and their boys, they will never actually respond like a pastor. I am so sorry that I have to answer this. It is a symptom of a much bigger problem.

    My pastor was found to be having an affair. The church was called together one night. The pastor was sitting in a room, surrounded by chairs for the congregation. He admitted to the affair. And then he said that he would sit in the middle of the circle until everyone could tell him how much he had hurt them by his actions. The meeting went through the night, with much pain expressed.

    In this situation, Dino has not confessed to the affair and the ARC boys are playing semantic games. Trust them, my foot.
    Can you imagine any of these guys being humble enough to listen to the people? Their response demonstrated to me that they aren’t fit to carry the shoes for the pastor I am describing.

    For the next two years, the pastor stayed in the church as a congregation member. He would come in every Sunday, notebook in hand and sit and take notes from the sermon. He was present for anyone who wished to speak with him. He went to work in a big box store, not because he had to, but because he wanted to do so. In so doing, he began to become a part of his church- a regular guy.

    At the end of that time, he said that he believed that he should not go back to the pastorate even though he had undergone discipline and showed his deep remorse. There are many of us who have tried to convince him to be a pastor again but he is adamant. He humbly serves as a teacher in a class. Much of how I view Scripture can be attributed to him (the good stuff-don’t blame him for the bad.)

    Compare his response to the ARC big boy takeover. There has not been a confession and they are willing to cover up exactly what happened. “A friendship?” My goodness, how we love to obfuscate and deceive. This isn’t church. It is a mirror of Washington level politics which is quite near the junction of the pit of hell.

  6. @ dee:
    Dee, that is truly an amazing story. I suspect it will be told and retold many times. Tell him thank you for me. I am heartened to know that such men exist.

  7. We believe in Grace at Elevation Church. Pastor Steven has taught us to never judge and never condemn people. When all this came out about Pastor Steven’s new home, our attendance has gone thru the roof!

    WHY?

    Because people care about THE WORD…not gossip! Pastor Steven gives us that top drawer Bread of Life! We don’t care about the Board, the Governance, the Salary setters, that stuff is not even in the Bible.

    We care about the WORD! Like Pastor said recently about you Haters:

    “A hater is someone that spends all their time trying to make you look small so they can look tall. When you make your mark and get your inheritance, you will always attract some haters.”

    Well said Pastor!

    When’s the last time you spoke to 16,000 people about Jesus on a weekend?

    Thought so….SO SHUT UP!

  8. So what is being said here? That these people are really of great and noble character and that somehow they accidentally sinned, but if that mis-step can be solved then all is well because, after all, they are really of great and noble character? And all that has to be done is to go public with the sin, maybe if possible find some mitigating circumstances, but even if not just have some guys with authority step in an make pronouncements, and somehow get the guy’s wife on board with all this, and then go merrily on the way?

    Let some doctor have some “relationship” with a patient and see how that plays with the medical board. But I guess that preachers have some under the table deal with God that they get a pass on this stuff. Not. And people who believe that need to think again.

    Let some lawyer play loose with somebody’s estate or trust and see how the bar deals with that. Heck, see if there are not criminal charges.

    Let some teacher send too many text messages to some student and watch what happens to his job, reputation and hopes of future employment.

    But in the church, apparently, the “leaders” can get away with anything because they think they are God’s anointed. David may have thought that of Saul, but I sure do not think that of Brother Billy Joe Bob.

  9. In some states, it is assumed that a supervisor having sex with a supervisee has engaged in a form of rape, because of the inability of free consent. If the supervisee complains, the charge can be filed.

  10. @ dee:

    Wow. What a great story. The problem is that this is so rare. It ought not be rare. There ought to be a lot more heroes among us.

  11. An Attorney wrote:

    If the supervisee complains, the charge can be filed.

    Question: What if the supervisee gets paid off to keep silent? Can the paid of supervisee return in a couple of years and sue?

  12. dee wrote:

    Wow. What a great story. The problem is that this is so rare.

    We’ve let the pastors off the hook. They are now acting like politicians rather than pastors. Look at the mess in DC. Same sort of mess is developing in the church.

  13. Janet Varin wrote:

    I suspect it will be told and retold many times.

    i told it on the blog a long time ago. i may need to feature it again. You would love him. He looks at the Scriptures through a different lens. We go out of our way to hear him teach each week. There is link to his teaching on our blog called Apt to Teach.

  14. Tim Lawing wrote:

    Well said Pastor!
    When’s the last time you spoke to 16,000 people about Jesus on a weekend?
    Thought so….SO SHUT UP!

    Which is exactly what Mike Warnke’s fanboys bleated in his defense after Cornerstone exposed Warnke as a complete fraud.

  15. dee wrote:

    An Attorney wrote:
    If the supervisee complains, the charge can be filed.
    Question: What if the supervisee gets paid off to keep silent? Can the paid of supervisee return in a couple of years and sue?

    This is commonly called “Hush Money”.

    Or “One Hand Washes the Other.”

  16. We have one of those ARC churches about 2 mi. from my house called “Next Level.” The pastor is Matt Keller and one of my nephews (16 yr. old) goes to church there. The building was occupied by a different church prior to this group buying it and I’m trying to remember the name of that church and find out why they left.

  17. Jesus had to deal with ARC’s as well. His response:

    “You brood of vipers! How can you speak good things, when you are evil?”

  18. “Do you believe a Pastor can be restored after an affair? If you do, what would your stipulations be?”

    I would stipulate that they agree that male headship is a bad idea, and they take a stand against it, admitting that men are fallible human beings who have no right to have authority over women. Give them goldfish.

  19. dee wrote:

    @ Jeremy: This is an easy question for me to answer. The reason is that I had a pastor who went through this and modeled it for the church. congregation. He admitted to the affair. And then he said that he would sit in the middle of the circle until everyone could tell him how much he had hurt them by his actions.

    So Dee, what did YOU say to the pastor that night. I’d like to hear.

  20. @ dee:
    probably not, but a criminal complaint is another matter, and the settlement agreement might become evidence of another crime — silencing the victim with money is a crime in some states.

  21. Victorious wrote:

    We have one of those ARC churches about 2 mi. from my house called “Next Level.”

    Next Level?
    Wasn’t that where the Heaven’s Gate crowd were going?

  22. “Do you believe a Pastor can be restored after an affair? If you do, what would your stipulations be?”

    I have commented extensively on this. At least two years off, and weekly or biweekly sessions with a counselor experienced in working with fallen pastors. Full and complete, detailed confession to representatives of the congregation. Working outside of a church or religious environment for the two years. Making victim compensation if the person was an employee or supervisee or counselee. If a crime was committed in the process, turning oneself in and cooperating with the authorities. [If a child was involved, never attempt to return to ministry.] Submit to a full financial audit, and repay any inappropriately received funds [usually find financial shenigans when we find sexual ones, and vice versa, and also abuses of position (assuming authorities not granted)]. If returned to a ministry position, have a group of same sex individuals, appointed by the congregation, and maintain weekly meetings with them, with full disclosure of all contacts with women other than one’s spouse. Maintain such meetings for the remainder of your employment/career. If preaching or teaching, no other authority in the church, i.e., not involved in church business at all, do not even attend business events of the church. Maintain a relationship with the counselor on a monthly basis for at least another 5 years.

  23. Hodges said, “We’re going to take care of them and we’re going to take care of you. Trust me.”

    Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
    LOL !

  24. “…Got Da Brand Name Blues?”

    Moral of the proverbial ‘church’ story: forget the scriptures, forget about accountability, ‘brand name is everything’. Don’t go down in flames!!!; insurance policies are available, get yours today…

  25. Tim Lawing wrote:

    When all this came out about Pastor Steven’s new home, our attendance has gone thru the roof!

    Yet more money. Now he’s got to fix his roof.

    (Tim – if you put that in deliberately, btw, then you have surpassed yourself!)

  26. Wow, the polity structure at these “churches” defies belief. People actually donate money so other fat cat preachers outside their church (even their city!) run the show? And they trust this?

    Why?

    This is a social phenomena that needs to be studied. Do the people in these churches see themselves as incapable? Lacking in spiritual wisdom? My guess is yes. They look to an oligarchy to tell them what to think and believe. Seriously, people don’t want to see a budget? Defies logic.

    Furtick has the cult language down good. He has set up a dichotomy that anyone not on his side is a “hater”. People fall for it and are honored to be one of the non haters. It is the typical divide and conquer tactic meant to build loyalty to his brand. I know from my mega days there are people who think their lives are complete if Furtick acknowledges them at all.

  27. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Tim Lawing wrote:

    When all this came out about Pastor Steven’s new home, our attendance has gone thru the roof!

    Yet more money. Now he’s got to fix his roof.

    (Tim – if you put that in deliberately, btw, then you have surpassed yourself!)

    Circus’ attract a lot of people

  28. Anon 1 wrote:

    I know from my mega days there are people who think their lives are complete if Furtick acknowledges them at all.

    “SEE HIS FACE! HEAR HIS VOICE! FUEHRER! FUEHRER! FUEHRER!”
    — Leon Uris, Armageddon: a Novel of Berlin, describing a Nuremberg Rally

  29. Anon wrote:

    Hodges said, “We’re going to take care of them and we’re going to take care of you. Trust me.”

    “Take Care of You” has more than one meaning.

  30. Janet Varin wrote:

    The question was, can a person who perpetrated such horrific deeds ever be trusted in fellowship again? The offered response was that spectacular sin required spectacular repentance. Full disclosure, full ownership. Nothing less. So start there.

    I think that this is absolutely the right answer…as the sin, so the repentence & response. Listen up churches.

  31. Jeremy wrote:

    Do you believe a Pastor can be restored after an affair? If you do, what would your stipulations be?

    I do, in practice and in principle. I’ve met a pastor who had some years previously had an affair, had fully faced up to it and its consequences, and was powerfully effective in ministry. By that I do not mean that he wowed crowds with his stage presence – that’s no effect in ministry at all. Rather, in a low-key small group setting in Bishopbriggs, he was extraordinarily unpretentious, thoughtful and informative and we all found the day we spend with him greatly enriching. Not least through what he’d learned from his past failings. It’s worth noting that he and his wife were ministering together. The evidence I witnessed points to both she, and God, having restored him; and I’d say they both matter a great deal.

    That’s different from the way most people would probably interpret your question, though, which would be more like: Can we give a pastor his job back after an affair? (I say “his” for the sake of simplicity.) A lot depends on how different we think a pastor is from “ordinary” christians. I do not believe in “ordinary” christians, so to my understanding it comes down to his willingness to at least set the right example in repentance and change. A pastor responding with denial, obfuscation and cover-up has no place in the church, never mind the pulpit; that’s true of any professing believer. But I find no hard biblical evidence for God withholding grace and forgiveness from a repentant person. The best way of demonstrating them will vary greatly depending on the circumstances, though. (If the congregation has no experience of the spiritual gift of wisdom, then now is the time to start – this is just the kind of thing it’s given for.)

  32. @ An Attorney:

    Reading through your list, I’m forced to conclude that your answer to the question is “no”. A church that imposed those stipulations in functional perpetuity would effectively be refusing to accept the person’s repentance, ever. Trying to pastor the church under those conditions would be intolerable emotionally (for the pastoral monitoring team, never mind for the pastor) and untenable in practice. And to appoint someone in ministry, having already declared him untrustworthy, would be unbiblical and damaging all round. Much better to declare that he could not be restored, and expel him from the church.

  33. @ Anon 1:

    Right you are. People are messed up.

    For one thing, one major denomination discovered that its people were basically too ignorant of the religion they practiced and set out to do something about that. Probably that problem is not limited to that one denomination. So if people think they have to have somebody else tell them what to think, that is probably correct. They probably do need that.

    And for another thing, people are not content and OK about themselves. Look at the number of people who take mood altering prescription meds. Look at how many self-help paperbacks are on the market. Look at how people think that what they really need is another lover, plastic surgery, a life coach, great abs, a weird diet, a guru, concealed carry, more gym time, sweat lodge experience, herbal aromas, something more kinky, a wilderness retreat with an outhouse, more e-friends, more cleavage, someone to “understand” them, an easier job, a divorce, more entertainment, a better image, the latest fashion craze, ridiculously expensive shoes, a massage and pedicure….Good grief. Some of that is useful in some circumstances, but when these things become the preoccupation of people one has to note that something is amiss in a culture that does this to this extent.

    And we are sick as a nation. Look at the stats on obesity, type 2 diabetes, STDs, allergies and immune diseases, cancer and heart disease–compared to some other nations. We are sick. And that does not even include depression. If you believe it, they say we are, as a people, way too frequently depressed, and even if not a lot of us are on antidepressants anyhow. And minds are being damaged lots by internet porn. How about addictions. This is not all just my opinion. It is in the media about all the time. We feel bad and we act bad for multiple reasons.

    So along comes some megamouth salesman with a few stringed instruments, some lights and a slick presentation of an established “product” and he declares that God sent him (called him) to solve their problems. OK, why not. Religion is safer than meds and cheaper than plastic surgery, and you can just listen to the guy and don’t even have to read the book. And If you don’t know the difference between quality and not in what he is saying—there you go. Besides, all those people can’t be wrong. A crowd is always exhilarating and even sometimes convincing. Sure they throw the money in the plate. They are used to paying for stuff to make them feel better. They buy it. You don’t ask for an accounting from the merchant for what he does with the money you pay for his product. Who would think to do that?

    And some of these people are the children and grandchildren of the people who gave us the social revolution of the 60s and 70s. They don’t know. How could they?

    Now here is the scary part. All that I have said is just common knowledge. Who knows what lurks in the shadows, as the old radio program used to say.

    Food for thought; maybe what they offer is better the nothing. Maybe God does get through to folks through this. Maybe it is a good thing with lots of problems, rather than a problem thing with a little good sprinkled around. I don’t know what I think about that.

  34. @ Nancy:

    I think it’s velveeta God — a gram or two of the original nutrient, processed many times over until it’s the most synthetic thing on the grocery store shelves.

    it serves no purpose other than tasting good while it’s being consumed and making money for the brand name.

    it replaces healthy calories with unhealthy ones, filling you up so you don’t seek out nutritious food.

    When velveeta is no longer manufactured, America’s diet will be all the better for it.

    When velveeta God is no longer manufactured by the likes of these plastic people preachers, America as a whole will be all the better for it.

  35. @ Anon 1:
    I am starting to get a picture of the future of Evangelicalism. They are by passing us oldies who wouldn’t give a dime to outfits like Furtick’s or Dino’s churches. They gear these churches to young people and people who don’t know a lot about church life (for example, those people who became a Christian during collage through a campus ministry of some sort). The non-churched then only experience church this way and it seems normal. They don’t question because they don’t know there are better, more accountable ways to run a church. Pumping up the leader as “amazing” and insinuating they are the “real deal” for Christianity further isolates their members from the larger church body. In the next generation, there will be Christians who won’t know that churches can be run internally. They will think the way these mega church groups operate is the norm. Convenient for the pastors of these outfits.

  36. Jeremy wrote:

    Do you believe a Pastor can be restored after an affair? If you do, what would your stipulations be?

    In general, I don’t believe this can be done. One of the qualifications for being a pastor is to be above reproach. 1 Tim 3:2 If a pastor has had an affair, he is not above reproach, even if fully repentant. Being above reproach means a level of trust that cannot be met by somebody who has sinned in such a way.

  37. Seneca,
    If you read here regularly, you would know that Dee lived in the Metroplex for a number of years, attended EY jrs. “church” for a period, and then found a wonderful church with a great pastor that is not a publicity hound or celebrity. When she speaks about EYjr, she speaks from personal experience as well as the voluminous available material about him, his airplane, his bed on the roof episode, etc. That stupid stunt, btw, almost resulted in him and his wife losing or permanently damaging their eyesight.

  38. @ Val:
    In may be the norm in the mega-church world, but it isn’t “biblical” or “New Testament” and it isn’t “church”. It is not a gathering of the priesthood of believers in a particular area for the purpose of mutual sharing, encouragement, study, and care.

  39. @ Deb:
    But it’s not as bad as that, because authoritarian CEO’s can only control their own “churches”; they can’t control the real Church. That’s why nones are so important, and there are a lot of us; besides all the churches that operate biblically (for instance, they haven’t abandoned assembling together with other churches, and their leaders are qualified by character and not by force of ambition).

  40. @ Nick Bulbeck:
    Here is an interesting thought. Do you think that a guy who had an affair with a church member would be allowed to be an elder within a year? Dino is functioning in the pulpit now. There are two standards out there and the ARC is showing their underbelly.

  41. elastigirl wrote:

    I think it’s velveeta God — a gram or two of the original nutrient, processed many times over until it’s the most synthetic thing on the grocery store shelves.

    I love this. you will see it pop up in a post at some point. Awesome.

    However, I do need to tell you that my awesome grilled cheeses sandwiches, which my grown kids declare the best on earth, are a combination of Boars Head white American with a slice of Velveeta for the goo factor. When my kids were younger, they begged me to try it so it is their invention.

  42. Lack of transparency, shell corporations used for, among other things, real estate transactions and other “big ticket” items, scratch-my-back I’ll scratch yours compensation committees with no names attached. Oblivious church members who are duped into believing their church is entitled to 10% of their income, no questions asked.

    The religious profiteers have learned the lessons of the TV preachers of the 80s and have changed their tactics considerably. The wall is a little higher and a little stronger, but our ladders will eventually reach over and the walls will come tumbling down.

  43. @ Val:

    Yes, the future is bleak in that respect. There was a time I thought most mega churches would be turned into peddler malls. I am not sure at this point but I do know the money is not flowing as freely as it did in the 90’s and early 00’s.

    The funny thing is people think the wise leaders make good decisions about things but they would be very wrong. What to do when the money stops flowing freely? Start sat churches in higher income areas where they can watch the guru on a large screen. That will work for a while.

    But the entire thing is built on large sums of money coming in monthly. And to depend on the 20-30somethings to maintain that is a scary thought these days. A place like that needs lots of income streams to maintain the high salaries and $20,000 month electric bills

    Mega churches like these are constantly marketing to replace the ones who are no longer coming. The stats show that people give when they are there. I am speaking in generalities based upon trends we studied. Giving is not something thought out by most pew sitters who are under a certain age. Most write a check or throw money in the pot when there. Now they can do it by credit card at a kiosk or online at the church coffee bar. These are mass movements taht depend on peer approval and appeal to operate. People tend not to think independently when in a “like group”. (I speak in generalities based upon trends we saw and some I have seen pass through! It is scary how we can predict what people will do in certain settings)

    These things are visible. What is not visible is the rise of the Nones which seems to be cutting across age groups. I am meeting more and more nones who are over 50. Some in their 70’s who were once very actively involved church people and now do not fit in or refuse to fund what they see. For the younger folks, social media is changing things quite a bit. Not sure how it will play out. But I don’t see a lot of independent thinking out there with the 20-30somethings who are involved with these groups whether it be YRR, IFB, ARC, ACTS29 or whatever. One can still hope they grow out of them.

  44. Just my 2cents. I think it is ridiculous to think of “restoring” a “pastor”. First of all, I do not think what is commonly seen as a “pastor” today is what is described/modeled in scripture. I don’t see one guy in charge paid to teach/ everyone else. If we use the words “paid elder” to describe him then would he be restorable?

    Man turned such things into a vocation. (many say it is a “calling”). So what most here are really saying is he should get his “job” back so he can make a living. That is what it boils down to.

    My question is why would a truely repentent person (which is a long term thing!!!) even want to go back to such a position? Because it is all he knows how to do? Becasue he misses the stage?

    Would you put the church treasurer back in charge of the money if he embezzeled? Yes, that is a crime but it can go unreported. I have seen that happen in a mega church because he “repented” stepped down for a time, etc. They came to regret that decision about 5 years later. Everyone is so into cheap grace. It is not about forgiveness, folks. Forgiveness does not mean you get your job back! It is about basic common sense. We think it makes us look so pious to restore “pastors” but at the same time think repentance is instanteous or we put in all these accountability systems as to be ridiculous. why not hire a babysitter for the pastor?

    It goes back to how we view the pastorate. The pastor, in most of these situations, made a willful consistent decision to live in hypocrisy while teaching others to live the opposite. He can be forgiven by those he hurt. But restored? People would actually believe him again when he so credibly and willfully lived a lie and was paid by you to do so?

    Me thinks he needs to start over with something else. There are serious consequences to such things.

  45. Let’s clear something up here. Is anybody saying that unless a local church is managed locally by a set of committees then it is not really a church? I am a member of a church which is a part of a denomination which is a combination of that concept (local church management by committees) and an overall “management” by superintendents and bishops. At our local church level, the church can barely function because of “personalities” on various committees. I personally resigned from a committee because it was such a waste of time and such a source of disagreement and who needs their life torn up like that anyhow.

    Meanwhile just two blocks from my house is the local Greek Orthodox church with a different church structure (and some different beliefs) but they seem to function and are a huge asset to the community.

    Who would say that the Methodists down the road who sit in committees and argue about how many covered dish events there ought to be are really the church and the Orthodox are not. If I have misunderstood what is being said, then I apologize. But I am not on board with running the Greeks out of town.

  46. “Also, it is strongly suggested by a number of sources that Pastor Steven gets to pick who serves on his compensation committee.”

    So, you have no actual facts to back that up? That sounds about right.

  47. While we are at it, I want to say something. I would say “share” but that is so overused.

    For all the biblicals out there I will use biblical terminology.

    Be not afraid.

    Yesterday was my last radiation treatment. A large portion of me is suffering from radiation damage including radiation skin reaction (burns). But today is the first day of the rest of my life. Since June I have been through a scary diagnostic workup, surgery, radiation and now I face 2-4 weeks to recovery from radiation. Then they will put me on pills for the rest of my life.

    That said, I have learned some things. Since you too will face disease, disability and death you may benefit from what I have learned. I have had some moments of fear and dread such that I thought that if breathing and heart beat did not happen of their own accord then I would stop breathing and my heart would stop. That was partly due to the fact that I am familiar with the things that can go wrong. Surprise! At the bottom of the dark well of fear is something which does not change. Something in the inner person that goes into the experience of fear and comes out of the experience of fear unchanged. Knowing that from experience now I have realized that “it is only fear” and that fear seems to be a thing in its own right and that is a great and wonderful thing to know. It is only fear. It is not the reality of the thing which is feared, even if it seems to be.

    I suspect, therefore, that the biblical admonition to “be not afraid” means that there is something about fear itself that we can choose not to experience, or to be exact not experience in the same way as if we did not know this. In WWII we were told that “we have nothing to fear but fear itself.” Well,we did have a lot to fear, but it was also certain that fear would contribute to our destruction and that fear itself had to be conquered. We can all do better in this aspect, and it is worth doing.

    Be not afraid.

  48. oops:
    That is why the pathway I suggested (borrowed from several others, and elaborated a bit) is so difficult and long. To return to ministry requires a truly repentant heart and mind in a person actually called by God to ministry, and who mourns what they did, makes restitution, and seeks real change to avoid failing again. It is not cheap restoration, and it is not restoration to the conditions that accompanied the failure. BTW, those who complete the path and stay under the supervision of others can be excellent preachers and excellent counselors, which are two of the major functions of pastors today. What needs to be avoided is the narcissism-feeding CEO/rock star milieu that infects the life of many pastors today.

  49. @ dee:
    Would he have been? In certain church cultures in which it was only a low-ranking member he had an affair with, and in which he was an important figure, then yes; political considerations would have opened the door for him to get back into eldership.

    But supposing this were an authentic demonstration of church, and politics were subservient to wisdom and love. Should he have been? Without knowing all the details, I can only make an educated guess and say probably not. He’d have a marriage and family to rebuild, presumably, and so he would have more immediate and pressing priorities than trying to exercise governance in the church.

    The real underlying question, surely, is: what will best serve to build up the body of Christ locally? Vastly more could be said – in fact I wonder whether I feel a blog post coming on * – but that’ll dae for the noo.

  50. Pastor Steven shared with us a couple of weeks ago about the story of the woman in sin and Jesus said “he that is without sin cast the first stone”.

    He told us “don’t get stoned.”

    He said “we become hateful when we love principles over people.”

    We love Pastor Dino! How dare you Pharisees throw rocks at him because of his past!

    Elevation is doing so much good in the world! We are raising money to send to the Philippines. Millions of people are homeless and our Pastor said we need to help them have a place of shelter and a home.

    So Hate if you want too…but all that hate is going to give you what our Pastor calls…”Holy Ghost Heartburn”!

    I bet Dee has to pop Tums all day long!

  51. @ Nancy:

    Wow Nancy. I needed to read that today. Thank you so much for that description and explanation. It is incredible.

    (You remain in my prayers)

  52. Tim Lawing wrote:

    He said “we become hateful when we love principles over people.”

    So it is wrong to hate murder? Greed? If we hate greed then we must automatically hate your pastor because he is greedy?

    If one believes in the principle then that means they automatically hate the person who breaks the principle using other people to do so? ooookaaay. Because “hate” is mentioning the obvious signs of the bad character of the person. We get it.

    Wow, your pastor is really a deep thinker. :o) I can understand why his followers cannot go much deeper than that.

    (I am sorry but that place sounds so much like the old Amway people. Some stuff just works on people)

  53. Anon 1–I couldn’t agree with you more! I also believe the scripture does back you up on that.

    We get so concerned about the “career” the pastor who falls is losing. I can’t imagine “restoring” a teacher who molests, or a pharmacist who dispenses the wrong medicine willfully and kills someone, or a cop who sells drugs on the side.

    Methinks we sometimes confuse “manoGawd” with God.

  54. Val wrote:

    In the next generation, there will be Christians who won’t know that churches can be run internally. They will think the way these mega church groups operate is the norm. Convenient for the pastors of these outfits.

    And the pastors of these outfits plan on living (and ruling, and dominating) forever?
    (Valar Morghulis.)
    Then what happens?
    Struggle for the Megachurch Throne?
    A Red Wedding to make sure there is only one successor?

    “A cold Iron Throne
    Holds a boy barely grown;
    His crown based on lies,
    YOU WIN OR YOU DIE —
    GAME OF THRONES!”

  55. You know, “Rizzo” is also the name of the former city manager of Bell, California, who just got convicted & sentenced for some really spectacular corruption. Scandal made all the CA news when it broke a year or two ago.

  56. Tim Lawing wrote:

    He said “we become hateful when we love principles over people.”

    I doubt that he really said that, and I think Tim is pulling our leg(s). OK. But suppose someone did say that . I bet a lot of people in the audience who were wanting to hang on to their own sins and wanting nobody to tell the “no” would have loved to hear it.

  57. Mark wrote:

    The religious profiteers have learned the lessons of the TV preachers of the 80s and have changed their tactics considerably. The wall is a little higher and a little stronger, but our ladders will eventually reach over and the walls will come tumbling down.

    You are so very right Mark. The evangelical peasantry have grown weary of eating cake and are indeed storming the Bastille, TWW is evidence of it.

  58. “Elevation is doing so much good in the world! We are raising money to send to the Philippines. Millions of people are homeless and our Pastor said we need to help them have a place of shelter and a home”

    Tim, would it have occurred to you to give to the typhoon relief if your pastor had not mentioned it?

    While Elevation was talking about it and motivating its people to hand over money which will eventually get to some agency doing the work, the rest of us got on with it. All it takes is looking for a website, Red Cross, World Relief, whatever you decide, and make a donation. Then it is done. True, your Pastor/Elevation doesn’t get the glory and future bragging rights, so there is some loss of benefit doing it that way. But the people in the path of the typhoon are not going to mind.

  59. @ Sarah:
    It is actually so stated in a published report from Elevation. Furtick picked his compensation committee.

  60. ‘Weapons of Mass Religious Manipulation’ are being controlled from elsewhere off campus and none call it conspiracy?

  61. @ Sopwith:
    Sounds like the NSA may need to get involved or perhaps some other external organization to determine whether this conspiracy is a threat to the United States and our way of living. Weapons of Mass Religious Manipulation in the hands of a Dominionist could be considered terrorist possession of an instrumentality of destruction of the Constitution of the United States!!!!! (inverted dimple).

  62. Elevation ain’t your Grandmas church! Grandma may be buried in the churches backyard, she would leave if she could.

    These dead and dry and dull churches could learn a lot from Pastor Steven but they are too proud to sit at his feet and learn from the best.
    Dee can get on this blog and rag on Elevation Church: We have more people in our bathrooms on Sunday than you do in your Reformed cathedrals.
    Our haze machines, lights, lazers, sound systems all bring honor to God and brings souls to Christ.
    Stay old school if you want too, next Elevation will come to your town and see the glory of God come and attendance records will be set! 5 straight years on fastest growing church list…Yea God!
    We will be the 1st church in America with 100,000 people in it!
    If you hate us, congratulations! You have something in common with the Devil.

  63. @ Sharon Long:

    Elevation does not have “member” so the people are merely attenders. And how do 100,000 people have “community” and become a community that cares and shares with each other. It does not compute. So you have a rock star celeb guy talking to you over TV, but you are not a church, just a bunch of fans of the celeb paying the freight for him to do whatever he and his outside advisors decide. You have no say, except to walk away.

  64. Sharon Long wrote:

    Our haze machines, lights, lazers, sound systems all bring honor to God and brings souls to Christ.

    Welcome back, Sharon. You guys a good! 🙂

  65. Bridget wrote:

    @ Sarah:
    Did you get to decide who would be on that panel, Sarah?

    Nah-she was just told to pay up and shut up. There is audiovisual equipment to buy(the very best), coffee bars to construct, and very, very cool sermons to give.

    Sharon, just so you know, I, too, was in such a church. you know the guy Ed Young JR- Steven’s BFF. I, too, gave money. I wish I hadn’t.

  66. How deep does this religious rabbit (black) hole go?

    Down in a religious rabbit hole, feelin’ so very small? Down in an ever expanding hole, losin’ their soul to their ‘remote-control religious masters’, – they’d like to fly, but their wings have been oh! so clip’d…Don’t be deceived, kind folk, for every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like ‘the current shifting church shadows’ – God Almighty chose to give us birth through the Word of truth. Let us be therefore acutely acquainted with ‘that Word’.

  67. Tim Lawing wrote:

    Thought so….SO SHUT UP!

    Looking at the entire context of this comment indicates this is not a threat so I’ll let it go. But it sure says a lot if this is a typical attender of Elevation.

  68. An Attorney wrote:

    Sounds like the NSA may need to get involved or perhaps some other external organization to determine whether this conspiracy is a threat to the United States and our way of living. Weapons of Mass Religious Manipulation in the hands of a Dominionist could be considered terrorist possession of an instrumentality of destruction of the Constitution of the United States!!!!! (inverted dimple).

    Absolutely! I would also advocate the expansion of the Patriot Act to include and allow drone strikes on American soil too. Why should it just be 67 year old grandmothers and grand kids picking okra in Pakistan?

  69. @ Sharon Long:
    Not to bust your bubble but you might have to settle for #2 when it comes to church size. The Catholic Church in the United States is part of the worldwide Catholic Church. With 78.2 million self-identified members, it is the largest single religious denomination in the United States, comprising 25 percent of the population.

  70. Sharon Long wrote:

    Elevation ain’t your Grandmas church! Grandma may be buried in the churches backyard, she would leave if she could.
    These dead and dry and dull churches could learn a lot from Pastor Steven but they are too proud to sit at his feet and learn from the best.
    Dee can get on this blog and rag on Elevation Church: We have more people in our bathrooms on Sunday than you do in your Reformed cathedrals.
    Our haze machines, lights, lazers, sound systems all bring honor to God and brings souls to Christ.
    Stay old school if you want too, next Elevation will come to your town and see the glory of God come and attendance records will be set! 5 straight years on fastest growing church list…Yea God!
    We will be the 1st church in America with 100,000 people in it!
    If you hate us, congratulations! You have something in common with the Devil.

    Seriously? You & Tim represent what the majority are like at Elevation? It is worse than I thought, & I’m sad at your tone. Does anyone in your congregation ever disagree with Pastor Steven? Are you even allowed to do that?
    Please never church plant in England.

  71. An Attorney wrote:

    Seneca,
    If you read here regularly, you would know that Dee lived in the Metroplex for a number of years, attended EY jrs. “church” for a period, and then found a wonderful church with a great pastor that is not a publicity hound or celebrity. When she speaks about EYjr, she speaks from personal experience as well as the voluminous available material about him, his airplane, his bed on the roof episode, etc. That stupid stunt, btw, almost resulted in him and his wife losing or permanently damaging their eyesight.

    I have no idea what you posted above has to do with my question to Dee. I asked her about a meeting held in a church she referenced where the pastor copped to adultery and then spent an evening answering questions or listening to comments. She said she wasn’t there and I said I would have liked to hear what was said. What are you talking about?

  72. numo wrote:

    Beakerj: it’s a parody, beaks!

    Man, I hope so….because we get calls that sound just like Sharon…and they’re serious….

  73. As a member of the Security Team at our Providence campus, I can attest that Pastor Steven is a humble servant of Jesus. I have personally seen him sign numerous of his books for people and 2 weeks ago I saw him high five a 15 year old boy as we escorted him out the back stage door.

    He has told us that he will never visit us in the hospital or do a wedding or a funeral. He is too busy for that.

    But he delivers the goods on the weekend and he preaches even better than T D Jakes!

    He is anointed and I get goose bumps when he does occasionally come to our campus in person.

    When he walks on stage, you can sense the presence of Jehovah, the Brother is walking with the King!

    He may not be your cup of tea but he fills my cup every week!

    He ain’t perfect but he’s my Pastor!

  74. An Attorney wrote:

    Were you making an inverted dimple too?

    Indeed I was. Inverted dimple, parody, Lampoon, Monty Python skit, they’re all loosely equivalent.

  75. Anon 1 wrote:

    Just my 2cents. I think it is ridiculous to think of “restoring” a “pastor”. First of all, I do not think what is commonly seen as a “pastor” today is what is described/modeled in scripture. I don’t see one guy in charge paid to teach/ everyone else. If we use the words “paid elder” to describe him then would he be restorable?
    Man turned such things into a vocation. (many say it is a “calling”). So what most here are really saying is he should get his “job” back so he can make a living. That is what it boils down to.
    My question is why would a truely repentent person (which is a long term thing!!!) even want to go back to such a position? Because it is all he knows how to do? Becasue he misses the stage?
    Would you put the church treasurer back in charge of the money if he embezzeled? Yes, that is a crime but it can go unreported. I have seen that happen in a mega church because he “repented” stepped down for a time, etc. They came to regret that decision about 5 years later. Everyone is so into cheap grace. It is not about forgiveness, folks. Forgiveness does not mean you get your job back! It is about basic common sense. We think it makes us look so pious to restore “pastors” but at the same time think repentance is instanteous or we put in all these accountability systems as to be ridiculous. why not hire a babysitter for the pastor?
    It goes back to how we view the pastorate. The pastor, in most of these situations, made a willful consistent decision to live in hypocrisy while teaching others to live the opposite. He can be forgiven by those he hurt. But restored? People would actually believe him again when he so credibly and willfully lived a lie and was paid by you to do so?
    Me thinks he needs to start over with something else. There are serious consequences to such things.

    That was worth much more than .02 cents! Influence is much more difficult to restore than position.

  76. Nancy wrote:

    So what is the problem? I thought that “real men” did this sort of thing. No. Wait. Real men only engage in inappropriate sexual behavior with their wives. My bad.

    The stereotype in segments of American Christianity is that the unmarried fool around.

    That’s why I tend to chortle when I see these stories of married Christians who get caught having affairs, or using prostitutes, or using kinky sites.

    Getting married is supposed to stop the whole “burning with lust” thing, or so conservative Christians suppose, so it’s also generally assumed that all the adult singles are out cavorting around like Tom Cats and Minxes.

    Or like rabbits. Whatever the appropriate analogy / metaphor/ simile is.

  77. K.D. wrote:

    Wait, wait…am I missing something here? Is there inappropriate sexual behavior with our wives now?

    According to guys like Mark Driscoll, no. A big fat no. Your wife has to do anything and everything you want, when you want. Her needs or state of mind are irrelevant.

  78. This is my last dump on this dung hill of a blog.

    Elevation Is all about Gods Word!

    Have you ever heard one of Pastor Stevens sermons? They are chucked full of bible verses!

    Check out his message series recently:
    How to hug a vampire
    F Bomb
    Ghost Stories
    Cow tipping
    And my favorite… Scare crow melon patch!

    We are getting fed the truth at Elevation and it is why we are now in the top 20 of large churches in America and we are launching 3 new campuses soon and we will break into the top 10 of all churches in the USA in 2014!

    Praise the Lamb of God!!

  79. @ Daisy:

    You have mentioned this before, but I don’t know anybody who thinks that hankie-ing the pankie is mainly an activate of single people. In fact, some folks think exactly the opposite. But a lot of folks seem to think that every adult either is or would be promiscuous under the right circumstances with the possible exception of people with religions constraints or sexual aversion disorder of some sort. And no, I don’t have evidence to confirm that, I have just pieced this opinion together from casual comments of the populace. Now, in the cases I have observed, when the truth comes out about some individual, it is frequently not what the general impression was beforehand. There is almost always the comment “you got to be kidding. Who would have thought.” Except for the ever-present person who “knew it all along.”

    And there is really nothing to be done about this. Whatever some individual says about their own behavior may or may not be believed, and what is believed or not is rarely accurate. The best thing to do is ignore the whole issue. Or for fun one can always lead people to believe that there are titillating and exciting details about one’s life that only you know, and you are not telling. It drives them crazy.

  80. Daisy wrote:

    K.D. wrote:
    Wait, wait…am I missing something here? Is there inappropriate sexual behavior with our wives now?
    According to guys like Mark Driscoll, no. A big fat no. Your wife has to do anything and everything you want, when you want. Her needs or state of mind are irrelevant.

    I’ll tell my wife that….that’ll fly like a lead balloon…

  81. @ Nancy:

    There is most definitely a perception in evangelical and Baptist communities that singles are not as sexually disciplined as the marrieds are, and/or that we are more prone to temptation, which is false.

    It is one reason churches have given for not wanting to hire unmarried male preachers (they assume the single male preacher will fool around with the married ladies or teen girls), and married Christian males are told to stay away from single ladies because should a married Christian guy stay alone in a room with a single lady, the single lady will tempt him into doing the dirty.

  82. Sharon Long wrote:

    How to hug a vampire
    F Bomb
    Ghost Stories
    Cow tipping
    And my favorite… Scare crow melon patch!

    Truth, in this instance, is stranger than fiction. You guys ought to try a you tube video, It could be funny.

  83. @ Nancy:

    P.S. It’s not just me saying this, by the way.

    The topic crops up in and for books, blogs, and other materials by single Christians for single Christians.

    Other adult, Christian singles have experienced being told in sermons by preachers, or in private by lay persons or preachers, that they must surely be sleeping around or using dirty web sites, and Christian single women have been subjected to being treated like temptresses in churches or in Christian owned/operated businesses.

    They have discussed this in books and blogs where they have been interviewed.

    I have seen these attitudes in sermons, blogs, books when Christian preachers and writers discusses topics such as infidelity, affairs, singles, marriage.

    Married, Christian men are told not to meet alone with single women in particular, and if they must, to always leave the door open.

    They are instructed not to confide in a single woman, or to let her get close to you or share with you, for it will always lead to an “emotional affairs,” which will lead to a sexual one, etc.

    The bias against singles as being randy and having loose morals comes up enough that it has been addressed by singles and by married people who have singles ministries.

    It is mentioned in articles such as:
    Isolated: single Christians feel unsupported by family-focused churches

    Women not in steady relationship ‘treated as threats to couples’

    More than a third of worshippers who were not married or in a relationship said they did not feel treated the same as those that were part of conventional families.

    …The survey found that older people were more keenly aware of their single status and that women not in a steady relationship were treated as “threats to couples”.

    I would refer you to further examples of this situation in the book “Quitting Church” by Julia Duin, and “Singled Out” by Colon and Field.

    Single Adults in Your Ministry: Why They Stay and Why They Stray, by Dick Purnell (Christian author writing about Christian adult singles):

    Number 6: There is a perception that single adults are morally loose.

    If a person is not married by mid-twenties, there is something wrong, it is generally thought. A particular church was in the process of trying to hire a youth pastor.

    Since they could not find one for over a year, they held a congregational meeting to explain the progress they were making.

    The elder in charge presented all kinds of reasons for the delay in locating the right person for the position. At the end of his explanation, I stopped up and asked, “Does the person you are looking for have to be married?”

    ..“I tell you what I think the real reason is. You are afraid that a single pastor would be sexually frustrated and have sex with one of the teenage girls. Out of all the pastors I have known personally, four have had affairs and left the ministry in disgrace. Each of them was married.

    I tried to tell them that some of the best youth pastors in America are single. I wasn’t a very popular guy after that. The elders eventually hired a youth pastor. Yes, he was married.

    … Some churches won’t allow singles to teach Sunday school for fear these men and women will succumb to sexual temptation. That is unfounded fear. We all need the power of God to overcome temptation.

    Myths of Singleness (singles.ag.org/):

    Single adults are a threat to married adults – Some insecure married adults believe this. It is almost always unjustified! It is usually the married adult which feels this, and as a result, alienates the single adult.

    There are plenty of single adults in this country (82 million to be exact) to discover without looking at married adults!

    There are other sites, blogs, and pages and books out there that discuss this problem of singles (especially unmarried females) as being treated in Christianity as supposedly being threats to married couples, as it is assumed that all are loose and seeking to steal married men.

    If it was not an issue and a common stereotype, you would not see it addressed in content about singles by Christians, but it is.

  84. @ Tim Lawing:
    So your pastor told you never to condemn or judge. I agree with no condemnation but to not judge those in the church is unbiblical and wrong. Paul expressly said we may judge as to examine unbiblical behavior that may impact or destroy a church’s testimony. Preaching to large crowds Is no indication of God’s favor or endorsement. A crowd can also is not necessarily a church.

  85. Just think what Moses could have accomplished if he had smoke machines, fog, blaring music, electronic machines, wide screen projection and a band. Oh, Moses had The Holy Spirit. If the goal of these things is to make men happy at church, then God help us because the purpose of worship is not artificial stimulation to make us happy but to grow in conformity to God’s commands.
    .

  86. @ Tim Lawing:

    “He is anointed and I get goose bumps when he does occasionally come to our campus in person….

    He may not be your cup of tea but he fills my cup every week!”
    ++++++++++

    ok, the “maybe he’s for real” façade just cracked.

  87. @ Sharon Long:

    How to hug a vampire

    Well, according to certain highly reputable sources, if you’re female you can’t help yourself after they step into the sunlight.

  88. Did anyone read the comments at the my cult life blog? Wonder if Chris Hodges really compared the congregation ‘s desire to know why Rizzo was resigning to children wanting fruit loops. Sometimes they don’t know what’s good for them.

  89. K.D. wrote:

    numo wrote:
    Beakerj: it’s a parody, beaks!
    Man, I hope so….because we get calls that sound just like Sharon…and they’re serious….

    Deebs – you should do a supplemental post on Poe’s Law. There still seems to be some confusion around your satirical guests. (If you lack the time, which would be understandable, giz a shout off-line and I don’t mind helping out.)

  90. ____

    “The Stone Cut Out Of The Mountain Without Hands?”

    Steven Fertick sweeps them off their feet, and leaves them breathless with his every word? Funny, do you get the distinct impression that you can not tell this guy anything? That he is possibly drunk with his new found power? That he has attempted to silence the very ones that are trying desperately to warn him? Like Mahaney, pride comes before a fall, Eh? That he is now one of the proverbial ‘religious untouchables’ ? His opposition conveniently designated ‘Haters’, huh? – Assemble all your so called elders, your members and your officers, of a congregation of your own making, speaking your enticing words in their hearing and call upon the heavens and the earth to witness against those who speak against you?

    Ahem!

    The effectual fervent prayer of the righteous avails …a whole lot.

    All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate pastor, who walks in ways that are not good, pursuing his own imagination?

    hmmm…

    Every plant which Almighty God did not plant shall be uprooted. – Let them alone; they are blind guides of the blind. And if a blind pastor guides a blind congregation, both will fall into a proverbial pit…

    (sadface)

    As far as the east is from the west, so far has the Almighty has removed our transgressions from us. But I ask: did they not hear? Of course they did: God’s Word has gone out into all the earth, His words to the four corners of the world.

    Sopy

  91. Somebody enlighten me here. It is evident about Furtick-who he is and how he does and what he thinks. But how do you all know about the is/does/thinks of his followers? There is the assumption that Tim and Sharon are doing a good job satirizing the congregational attitude, but how do you know that? I am not being contentious here, I really have no idea what is going on at the congregational level in a place like elevation. I have no feel for what is accurate or not in what Tim and Sharon say.

  92. Sharon Long wrote:

    We will be the 1st church in America with 100,000 people in it!

    Sorry, my Church has you beat. 78 million strong with nearly 20 million in weekly attendance, all across the country, kicking it old school for 2,000 years.
    Without the lights and a hip preacher, my Church has grown from 48 million in 1965 to 78.1 million in 2012. We are poised to reach 100 MILLION in a couple of decades.

  93. John Jenkins

    Tim and Sharon are doing a parody. They are so good that just about everyone believes them to be serious.

  94. Canna Berrong wrote:

    onder if Chris Hodges really compared the congregation ‘s desire to know why Rizzo was resigning to children wanting fruit loops. Sometimes they don’t know what’s good for them.

    I did not see this. Where did it say that? I might like to use that quote in a coming post.

  95. Nancy wrote:

    There is the assumption that Tim and Sharon are doing a good job satirizing the congregational attitude, but how do you know that?

    I know who they are and they do know. They have attended Elevation and grew uncomfortable with what is going on.

    The reason that they are so good is they they exaggerate the underlying issues of many of these high rolling churches in such a way that they are believable.

  96. ken wrote:

    Influence is much more difficult to restore than position.

    This is a good point, Ken, and illustrates the importance – imho – of judging each case on its merits (for want of a better word) and in its own context. The esteem in which a person is held by a congregation, regardless of their history, depends heavily on the congregation’s own makeup and history.

    I’ve never been part of congregation that’s had to face this kind of challenge, so I have to venture my opinions cautiously, but it seems to me that how the congregation itself responds is as important as how the pastor behaves (and, for that matter, the other party in the affair). The other leaders (whatever title or office they may be given, it should be clear who they are) need to move in step with the Holy Spirit and and understanding of scripture. The congregation as a whole must neither minimise what has been done, nor lose faith in the power of God’s graciousness. Equally, they must not favour one party and make a scapegoat of the other, nor pursue a desire for punishment and revenge.

  97. Actually, the more I read my last comment @ here, the more it looks like it was written by some pompous a**e (UK english) venting his over-read and under-experienced opinion. Which it probably was, actually.

  98. Everyone agrees that one has to come clean and repent to be forgiven. It’s the cover up that grieves me. What about Kaycee, the church employee/personal assistant with whom he had an affair? It’s as if she’s been erased. Her picture was deleted from the HPC website in a hurry and she was packed up and shipped off. Dino has been “restored” and she has been ignored.

  99. Canna Berrong wrote:

    Dino has been “restored” and she has been ignored.

    Because, of course, in these circles, it is usually the woman’s fault. Even if it is admitted that the man has fault, she is still removed as the ‘real’ problem, the ‘real’ reason that he fell. It couldn’t possibly because he’s not suited for ministry of a position of authority.

  100. @ John Jenkins:

    One of the reasons they do this is because they are seeker friendly and only care about drawing new members. Furtick is on video/ audio saying he doesn’t care about you if you already know Jesus (I provided links to these quotes of his on previous Furtick threads).

    Other seeker friendly preachers have the same mind set, that church is NOT for Christians but for Non Christians, which is backwards from what the Bible says on the topic.

    The church exists in part for believers to support other believers, and one directive they are given in the Bible is to go out into the world (when they are not supporting one another) to spread the word of the Gospel to non-believers.

    The church exists for believers, not non-believers. This is a point that Furticks and other seeker friendly guys do not understand or accept.

  101. Nick Bulbeck wrote:

    Deebs – you should do a supplemental post on Poe’s Law. There still seems to be some confusion around your satirical guests. (If you lack the time, which would be understandable, giz a shout off-line and I don’t mind helping out.)

    If parody/ satire is done well, people (discerning readers, the average Joe may not get it) should be able to pick up that it is parody/satire and not wonder if the person is serious or joking.

    I think it helps if the writer drops a few hints or clues in the parody, and a few borderline silly “*wink wink*” ridiculous comments, so that anyone reading it closely will pick up on that it’s a gag. IMO.

  102. @ Nancy:

    In addition to Dee’s points above, if you visit sites (secular news sites as well as The Christian Post) that reported about Furtick’s big mansion, and skim the comment sections of each, and you will see their attitudes.

    If you visit Google News and run a search for “Steven Furtick,” you will then come across several news pages about the controversy, and several of those pages have visitor comments, where Furtick church attenders leave comments defending Furtick.

    For instance, here is one comment apparently by a Furtick church goer (or defender) – this is from the article
    “Elevation Church pastor Steven Furtick: 16,000-square-foot house is gift from God” (source: charlotteobserver.com):

    by Chris Mattingly

    So lets get this straight…..

    The bible says “the blessing of the Lord makes a man rich and he adds no sorrow to it”

    The bible says “give and it shall be given to you a good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over”

    This pastor gives away 45% of his income (no wonder he is blessed financially!!) and he has written NY Times best seller books…

    YET you are upset because he is blessed financially and say he is ripping people off with their giving????

    No I will tell u exactly why he is blessed….those two scriptures above! ^^^

    Another guy from the same page:

    by Marc Burcham

    People will never understand Gods blessings. Does that make him a bad person no. That shows you big and great our God is. Why shouldnt a Pastor be able to be a millionaire. We people writting music like JayZ making that talking bout shooting someone. So yes. If they can the a Christian can. But when God is involved then people will never understand. Im happy for him. That is no ones business but his and his congregation. Thats it. He dont owe no one not this paper, you, and me. Nothing. All i can say is what i might God we serve.

    Reply · Like · Follow Post · November 7 at 4:16pm

    You can find several people defending Furtick in the visitor section here:
    The Prosperity Gospel Of Elevation Church Pastor Steven Furtick: “Everything We Have Comes From God”

  103. The warnings are out there for anyone to see. Elevation is not a church in the ‘scriptural’ sense. Are these kind folk who’s only ‘church’ attendance has been at Elevation, going to have to be de-programmed by a genuine ‘scriptural ‘church in the area, should kind folks decided to leave Elivation?

  104. Sopwith wrote:

    “The Stone Cut Out Of The Mountain Without Hands?”
    Steven Fertick sweeps them off their feet, and leaves them breathless with his every word?

    “THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!
    THE VOICE OF A GOD, NOT OF A MAN!”
    — the Book of Acts re Herod Agrippa

  105. Daisy wrote:

    One of the reasons they do this is because they are seeker friendly and only care about drawing new members. Furtick is on video/ audio saying he doesn’t care about you if you already know Jesus (I provided links to these quotes of his on previous Furtick threads).
    Other seeker friendly preachers have the same mind set, that church is NOT for Christians but for Non Christians, which is backwards from what the Bible says on the topic.

    That’s what happens when you reduce the Gospel to Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation. And the Church to a Sell That Fire Insurance pyramid scheme.

  106. Muff Potter wrote:

    Sharon Long wrote:
    This is my last dump on this dung hill of a blog.

    Leaving all us peons to clean up your Creamy Behemoths.

  107. @ Headless Unicorn Guy:
    LOL! Actually, I heard Bill Maher, Dawkins and a few others on a show said the job where one could get paid for producing nothing was a church planter. He was being facetious, but there was a ring of truth to these mega church pastors.

    In the future, I fear, the psychopathic CEO types will be drawn to mega-pastor positions, since they are unaccountable to their congregation, don’t need to “do” anything for them, yet can demand money from them without question.

  108. Val wrote:

    I fear, the psychopathic CEO types will be drawn to mega-pastor positions, since they are unaccountable to their congregation, don’t need to “do” anything for them, yet can demand money from them without question.

    There is a reason that my new mantra is : If you must go to these churches, at least stop giving them money.

  109. numo wrote:

    Beakerj: it’s a parody, beaks!

    </blockquote
    But how can you be sure? Is it you Numes? 🙂 I may have missed the obvious…am working toooo hard.

  110. Thanks Mara for your comment. I give up. After months of following this story and attempting to engage other christians in conversation about the outcome of the victim, it seems no one is interested. The best information so far is from the blog from an unbeliever.

  111. @ Canna Berrong:

    Others here care for the victim. But there are so many people defending the perp that it may appear that the perp is their main focus.

    If the victim came here, she’d find a place of acceptance and encouragement.

  112. Canna Berrong wrote:

    What about Kaycee, the church employee/personal assistant with whom he had an affair? It’s as if she’s been erased.

    That’s because Christian love does not exist in these ministries – with one exception. They have re-written the the commandment

    Love thy neighbor minister.

  113. @ Beakerj: most definitely NOT me, though Dee had mentioned them as a former “Elevator.”

    be sure to catch their sermon list a bit up thread. the one about vampires, etc. … 😉

  114. This is a very sad article. It’s not about forgiveness, the offensive minister Dino can be forgiven. And should be. The problem is giving him a place of leadership within the church. “Restoration” of his marriage and family is what Christians should hope for. “Restoration” of his leadership role in the church can not happen. Sometimes, our own behavior has serious and long-lasting consequences. That should be the case with preacher Dino. He will never be a true leader again.

  115. Martha wrote:

    It’s not about forgiveness, the offensive minister Dino can be forgiven.

    He will be forgiven after he confesses to his original congregation. From what I can tell, he did not. He has not done the first step. IMO, there cannot be restoration in the forseeable future, if ever, unless he confesses to his sin to those who supported him in his mansion, etc.

    Confession to the ARC boys is irrelevant.

  116. Dino Rizzo preached two weeks ago at the church I attend, Allison Park Church in suburban Pittsburgh. It’s an Assemblies of God (though rarely mentioned) and also an ARC church. It was uncomfortable sitting there hearing him preach knowing what had happened. Most in attendance probably did not know who he was though. He was introduced by the senior pastor as starting Healing Place Church and now has moved on to Alabama. There was no advance mention of him guest preaching. After the service he disappeared along with the senior pastor. No meet and greet. Still bothers me that he preached there. I always looked up to and expected pastors to be “Billy Graham” like. So sad that too many these days are “Elmer Gantry” like.

  117. Beakerj wrote:

    Sharon Long wrote:
    Elevation ain’t your Grandmas church! Grandma may be buried in the churches backyard, she would leave if she could.
    These dead and dry and dull churches could learn a lot from Pastor Steven but they are too proud to sit at his feet and learn from the best.
    Dee can get on this blog and rag on Elevation Church: We have more people in our bathrooms on Sunday than you do in your Reformed cathedrals.
    Our haze machines, lights, lazers, sound systems all bring honor to God and brings souls to Christ.
    Stay old school if you want too, next Elevation will come to your town and see the glory of God come and attendance records will be set! 5 straight years on fastest growing church list…Yea God!
    We will be the 1st church in America with 100,000 people in it!
    If you hate us, congratulations! You have something in common with the Devil.

    Seriously? You & Tim represent what the majority are like at Elevation? It is worse than I thought, & I’m sad at your tone. Does anyone in your congregation ever disagree with Pastor Steven? Are you even allowed to do that?
    Please never church plant in England.

    Well, I am living proof that you dont disagree with not only Pastor Steven, but anyone there in leadership. I was part of this “church”, but when the story broke about the house, I could not accept it…I could not follow a man who thinks its more important to store up treasures on earth than treasures in heaven. I was a greeter and an e-group leader. But when I dared to express my dissenting opinion, I was pretty much told how wrong I was and that I didnt know what I was talking about and I didnt have all the facts…bottom line, no one there dares to question the high and mighty Steven Furtick, if you do, you wont be around for very long…definitely a cult in the making if not already there!!!

  118. @ Mike Tate: How would you like to write up your personal encounter? These stories become much more personal when seen through the eyes of someone like you who devoted your time to the church and got the right boot of fellowship? We would be happy to post it either with or without your name.

    These rich mega-guys who “preach the gospel” will often retaliate when you question the situation. This is a perfect example of spiritual abuse. You might want to get yourself a copy of The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse. http://tinyurl.com/k3vggzc Your experience is outline in that book.

  119. Dee,
    I am trying to contact you directly…but it keeps rejecting your e-mail address…??? Also, I have read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse…definitely applies!

    Mike

  120. Disregard…you should have my e-mail not…it helps to put “.com” on the end of the address!

  121. @ Mike Tate:
    Check your email. I received it. Look forward to communicating with you. You have quite a story and it shows the deeply embedded problems at Elevation.

  122. Hi,

    THANK YOU for your report.

    Please read through the comments in this link:

    http://www.al.com/living/index.ssf/2013/08/after_inappropriate_relationsh.html

    I am navydad77 and churchmouse .

    The things that went on in the COVER UP of the affair is abhorrent. All the Christianistas harp on the grace and authority and judgement. It is SO disturbing that dino and the leaders are able to cover this all up for nefarious reasons.

    I was offered an opportunity to visit with Chris Hodges a few weeks ago so that I could ask him questions and “gain closure” on this. It has bothered me and the mutual POC offered to help me see that there was not a cover up. I live in Texas now but I am from BHam ; so the trip home for Thanksgiving would have been a bit too hectic to meet up with Chris.

    I would like to help you get in touch with people in the know about what happened at HPC.

    Thanks again!

  123. @ Martha:
    well Said. FYI: The wife is in denial that anything even happened. the “31 step” restoration program was a farce. Her daddy Wayne Austin is supposedly the one who gave them counseling.

  124. in reference to the title of the article. The biggest travesty in regards to the ARC connection is that it appears that there were people that knew what Dino was doing and used that info to get their own church or non-profit. Look at Story Heights in Boston and Church at St Amant. Their departure from HPC was well before the affair was found out and departure happened. The Tullos family knew Kaycee very well. Mark knew Dino too well.

    ALSO look at what the former pastors/staff at HPC are doing now. They were apparently paid to keep quiet and now they have cushy jobs in Dallas and BHam.

    Keep looking at this from a spiritual discernment point of view. My mamma always said ” use the brain God gave you ! “

  125. @ dee:

    Get some more info of what happened over on al.com. Look through the comments section –
    http://www.al.com/living/index.ssf/2013/08/after_inappropriate_relationsh.html

    Look at these as a summary of the issue:
    – The “Cover up” is the problem. The affair is sad but forgivable.
    – It appears that others knew about affair and used that info for their own gain.
    – The negative impact to ministry for trying to keep this hidden needs to be examined and mitigated by getting the truth out there and possibly removing the overseers.

  126. @ dee:
    When Dino went on stage to announce his departure it is said that he went off script at the advisement of his wife. That was self serving and odd that the denial could hold on and allow them to continue with nothing on the records. It made a HUGE mess when the Dream Center pastor was reading the actual script simultaneously and THEN had to deal with the contrasting stories by different segments of the congregations. So the folks from one side of the train tracks got the slightly more honest “sit in a circle confession” BUT the man himself went very very vague and bizarre. It’s as if he was unwilling to do the right thing and hold on to the fame and fortune for as long as possible.

  127. @ Julia:

    There is some eye opening information in that article. The major concern being that to be a part of Elevation you need to believe that it (Elevation) is God’s vision to Steven Furtick.

    It seems to be an article that has an answer for every concern that has been levied about Furtick and Elevation, which only leads me to be more concerned for the people that are following this man. The phrases, rules, and acknowledgements, along Furtick’s visions, thoughts, and actions as a teenager, point me toward belief that it is a cult and he is a cult leader.

  128. @ Bill:
    Just so you know, Tim is a parody of an Elevation member done. It is meant as a joke. Do not worry. Many others thought the same thing as you!

  129. Well said, Tim! Even our perfect Savior was criticized by the “religious”
    pharisees, so I wouldn’t expect our Christian leaders to have it any easier. It’s a joy to know my pastor, Chris Hodges, is living well. Who deserves prosperity more than one who puts his faith in God and serves his community tirelessly? (By the way, God is known to bless His chosen with wealth, as seen many, many times in the Bible, which is the only source of truth I need). I see this terribly biased article fails to mention the Birmingham Dream Center and Serve Day, two of the many ways Pastor Chris’ leadership has changed our city. I suppose the author was too busy figuring out how to insert the hyperlinks to his “dirt” and gossip to bother with something as trivial as facts.
    @ Tim Lawing: