A flower, if you bruise it under your feet, rewards you by giving you its perfume. Likewise Christians, tortured by the Communists, rewarded their torturers by love. link
Correction: TWW misunderstood the WCNC report and thought it implied that Holly Furtick was receiving money from a non-profit. That individual is a pastor's wife in another church. We apologize for our misunderstanding.
****************
When I first became a Christian, I was introduced to the writings of people like Corrie Ten Boom and Richard Wurmbrand. Both of them had a profound impact on my life. Corrie spent time in a Nazi concentration camp in which she lost her dear sister. Yet, she would come to forgive a vicious Nazi guard.
Even as the angry vengeful thoughts boiled through me, I saw the sin of them. Jesus Christ had died for this man; was I going to ask for more? Lord Jesus, I prayed, forgive me and help me to forgive him….Jesus, I cannot forgive him. Give me your forgiveness….And so I discovered that it is not on our forgiveness any more than on our goodness that the world's healing hinges, but on His. When He tells us to love our enemies, He gives along with the command, the love itself link
Richard Wurmbrand was a Christian pastor who converted from Judaism. He spent time in Communist prisons, suffering for speaking out against Communism. He would go on to found the Voice of the Martyrs. Here is what he said about those who tortured him.
A flower, if you bruise it under your feet, rewards you by giving you its perfume. Likewise Christians, tortured by the Communists, rewarded their torturers by love. link
I have seen Christians in Communist prisons with fifty pounds of chains on their feet, tortured with red-hot iron pokers, in whose throats spoonfuls of salt had been forced, being kept afterward without water, starving, whipped, suffering from cold—and praying with fervor for the Communists. This is humanly inexplicable! It is the love of Christ, which was poured out in our hearts. link
There is a crudeness that has entered the American church. We are creating pastors and churches in our own image which is exemplified by the American Dream. Many of our idol pastors are brash, arrogant, and wealthy. We, and they, are quick to take offense, reacting to criticism as one might react to being thrown into a Soviet era prison. We cry persecution for a mere critique. And this is a real problem because we are called to be a light to our world. But we seem to be more concerned with polishing our image than in being a light.
Matthew 5:14-16 (NIV) “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.
We are also called to love those who do not love us and, most times, we would rather not.
Romans 12: 14 NIV Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse.
Matthew 5:43-45 NIV You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven.
Far too often, we fail in this regard. We look at a negative assessment as if it were a call to the Battle of the Bulge. There are few of us standing today who could exhibit the grace of Richard Wurmbrand or Corrie Ten Boom. We are too weak and too entitled. Our role models are swaggering Mark Driscolls, threatening to punch out elders who disagree with them and Perry Nobles who run churches in which decent men like Dr. James Duncan are despicably hurt link. None of these types of pastors demonstrate the strength, grace, or love that was exhibited by a tiny woman named Corrie.
With this in mind, we are re-posting the following article written by our good friend, Tom Rich of FBC Jax Watchdogs. Steven Furtick's Brother Goes into Attack Mode: Calls WCNC Reporter Stuart Watson a "Two-Bit Hack", "Coward", and "Half the Man" Furtick Is. We then add some further tweets and comments of our own.
Sad to watch this unfold, but Steven Furtick's brother Matt Furtick has gone on the offensive to defend his brother, using his Twitter account to make terrible accusations against WCNC reporter Stuart Watson.
Here is a sampling of the many bullying Tweet's Matt Furtick has posted since Stuart Watson's expose on the finances of Steven Furtick and Elevation Church began on October 22nd. By the way, WCNC aired the fourth part of Watson's pieces, exposing some of the contents of a confidential Elevation Church financial report.
Yes, attacking the manhood of Stuart Watson. How Christ-like of Brother Matt.
Just a tad bit aggressive, almost threatening. Matt, Stuart is an Emmy-award winning reporter, and I don't think your biased view of him carries much weight.
Oh yes, the old "coward" accusation. I heard that so often back in 2007 and 2008 – along with "man up".
Steven Furtick's wife Holly sent a "Reply" Tweet to Matt's Oct 23 11:40 pm Tweet:
Again, that is Holly's October 24th reply to Matt's October 23rd Tweet calling Stuart Watson's report a "joke", a biased piece with "no factual information". After Holly seemed to publicly endorse Matt's characterizations, he then became more aggressive on successive days in attacking Stuart Watson on Twitter.
Matt Furtick describes himself as not being "affiliated" with Elevation, but says that he does attend when he is in town. Perhaps he helped Steven write the "Hey Haters" script?
I certainly understand Matt wanting to defend his brother, but this is just over the top to accuse a reputable reporter like Stuart Watson of being a "hack" and a "coward" – even questioning his manhood. But this is standard fare when a person dares to ask questions about the finances of a mega church and the pastor.
As you would expect from Stuart Watson – who by the way has won three Emmy's for his investigative reporting along with three Peabody awards – he is taking the high road. In Stuart's Twitter feed I see only one direct response to the bullying of Matt Furtick:
Here are further tweets from Matt Furtick. I do not know if Matt is a Christian so it is difficult to know how to address the trajectory of his comments.
The following tweet seems a bit confusing. Is he saying that Steven Furtick is threatening to stop further donations if Charlotte doesn't play nice? Is quid pro quo a Christian value?
This is what he had to say about Tom Rich. I am trying to see how this blesses Tom.
One again, he calls Tom a name and uses "half truths" without defining what he means.
Matt continues to disparage Tom.
He believes that people are jealous of Furtick. He does not seem to believe that there could be any other explanation.
This is where he addresses another Christian who is tweeting. I am looking hard to see some sort of constructive critique.Here is a sample tweet from the woman that he called a coward who exhibits psychotic behavior. I assume that Matt must be a psychiatrist since psychosis is a medical diagnosis. Does anyone know where Matt received his training?
It appears that Matt believes that Stuart should be giving money to Elevation. I guess the theory is that if one lives in Charlotte, Furtick's church should get your money. This is most confusing.
When churches advertise on television, design slick websites, broadcast their sermons, and serve their community, they are asking to be noticed. There is always a risk in being noticed. Sometimes outsiders will see things we would rather them not see. They might see our impatience, our greed, our anger, our arrogance and our weakness. We cannot demand that they see us as wonderful, smart, beautiful and kind.
If we truly belong to Jesus, we ask them to see us just as we are. We let them tell us what they see. And sometimes we must repent. But we belong to a God who forgives us and loves us in spite of our sins and mistakes. Let them see our repentance, and in seeing that, they may see the God that we want them to see.
Lydia's Corner: Ecclesiastes 1:1-3:22 2 Corinthians 6:1-13 Psalm 46:1-11 Proverbs 22:15
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Hmm
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Matt must be Steve’s very younger brother? Like, elementary school?
When you have no facts to respond with, all that’s left is name-calling I guess.
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Every time I see these Twitter/Facebook exchanges, I am reminded of how thankful I am that all the events recorded in the Bible took place before social media existed.
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In the summer of 2011, while we were still members of Second Baptist, a megachurch in Houston, Ed Young’s church, I tried to seek information about the allegations of child sex abuse by former music minister Eddie Struble. I had been contacted by some concerned parents. I have since found police reports and spoken with the parent of a victim. In seeking information, I emailed several Second Baptist staff members. I received a voicemail from David Dixon, executive pastor who said he found it “somewhat insulting” that I would insinuate that if they had knowledge of abuse they would not report it. David also emailed me to tell me that he was aware of my emails to other staff members and for me to contact him directly and “not anyone else.” http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2013/11/numbers-not-souls-culture-ripe-for-abuse.html#comment-form
Here’s the voicemail from David Dixon. As my friend said,”He went way off script.” They don’t like being questioned. https://archive.org/details/Voicemail_777
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When people resort to ad hominem attacks rather than responding to the substance of an issue, you know there is a problem. The “Christian” version of this kind of attack is to call someone who brings up serious issues “ungodly” or imply they have a defective spiritual life or even call into question their salvation. It all amounts to the same thing: avoidance of the real problem and an attempt to shift focus and blame.
It usually is a sign that the issue being raised has some real traction and substance.
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“And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.” “Whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.” “Give to him that asketh.” Again and again, over and over, Jesus is saying, “Take the low road.” Seeking to give Christ glory does not mean obtaining much wealth and a large estate to “show the world I’m a Christian.” It means selling it and giving to the poor. Glorifying Christ does not mean exercising God-given talents to draw attention to one’s self; it may mean dumping those in exchange for the priceless gem of humility.
-Shane D Curran
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@ John:
Like saying blogging is the “female sin of the internet.” And “They tend to go from blog to blog gossiping.”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2013/11/the-female-sin-of-the-internet.html
I salute you, all you great female sinners of the World Wide Web!
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He’s ‘not that young’ Similar age to his brother. More worrying is Holly Furtick’s comment supporting his tweets. The Furtick’s have no shame.
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Why does this surprise anyone? Why?
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anonymous wrote:
Because narcissism is a family trait? His tweets make no sense even if a strategy of some kind. Yes, and Holly Furtick’s tweet bothers me even more. Shows a serious lack of wisdom and discernment on a grand scale.
In another way, all of this is helpful. Thinking people won’t go near the place.
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I don’t know whether Stuart Watson is, either – I’m not well informed about media personnel in the US in general, actually, apart from the late and much-loved Alistair Cooke.
But if someone in the know told me that one of them is, and I had to guess which one from the tweets… I would guess that the comment by @StuartCLT was from a Christian, and the ones from @MattFurtick were from a drunk.
As you quite rightly say,
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er – sorry, didn’t mean to post the last line! Think of it as a blank cheque of kudos if you like.
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Not a bad assessment.
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@ That Bad Dog:
Love this comment!
It's no telling what Peter would have Tweeted, not to mention the Pharisees. 🙂
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Who run their churches with the same indulgence of POWER as the Nazi and Soviet regimes. Just they don’t have the absolute power of life and death over the Corrie Ten Booms and Richard Wurmbrands in their congregations/little empires. (Yet. Ever wonder why so many are into Taking Back America(TM) and Establishing a Christian Nation(TM)? Jockeying to be considered the True Heir of Calvin in Geneva? Hmmmmm….)
Naziism and Communism were both political CULTS. Hitler and Stalin (and their imitators among all those Third World Dictators) were CULT LEADERS with courts of Yes-Men Reichministers/Commissars/Elders. And their CULTS ran entire countries like giant Jonestowns.
“The only goal of Power is POWER.”
— Comrade O’Brian, Inner Party, Airstrip One, Oceania, 1984
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“Jacob was a cheater, Peter had a temper, David had an affair, Noah got drunk, Jonah ran from God, Paul was a murderer, Miriam was a gossiper, Martha was a worrier, Gideon was insecure, Thomas was a doubter, Sarah was impatient, Elijah was depressed, Moses stuttered, Zacheus was short, Abraham was old and Lazarus was dead. God doesn’t call the qualified, He qualifies the called.”
*
The Furtick boys certainly lack perfection as we define it.
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Seneca wrote:
So, how do we know who is called beyond them telling the rest of us idiots?
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@ Amy Smith:
With those guys, when men critique other men on the internet, or point out errors in theology or behavior, they are “using discernment.” When women do the same thing to men on the internet, it is “gossip.”
Nice double standard they have.
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@ Deb: Jesus probably would've been blocked by the Pharisees on Twitter and unfriended by them on Facebook, but had lots of followers of regular joe's.
If Jesus and the Apostles had used Twitter and Facebook, it might have been something like this (but with a biblical theme, not sci fi. The language in this is PG-13 to maybe a little R-rated): If Star Wars had Facebook
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@ Seneca:
Aaaand… some of the people on your list were disciplined or corrected by God (such as Peter and Jonah).
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Seneca wrote:
P.S. Didn’t Moses choose to leave behind the wealth, comfort and splendor of Egypt to follow God, which he knew might entail discomfort and hardship? Moses did not leave God’s calling to go live in a 16000 sq ft palace with servants.
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“Jacob was a cheater, Peter had a temper, David had an affair, Noah got drunk, Jonah ran from God, Paul was a murderer, Miriam was a gossiper, Martha was a worrier, Gideon was insecure, Thomas was a doubter, Sarah was impatient, Elijah was depressed, Moses stuttered, Zacheus was short, Abraham was old and Lazarus was dead. God doesn’t call the qualified, He qualifies the called.”
Jacob acted on the insistence of his mother, Rebecca. She insisted because the Lord had specifically told her the older would serve the younger of her sons. That’s why she wanted the blessing for Jacob; based on the word of the Lord.
Peter – I don’t believe scripture records Peter as having a temper although he was impetuous.
David – David did have an affair and suffered the consequences of it. Nowhere was his sin glossed over or minimized.
Noah – Noah was righteous in God’s eyes. He drank too much wine and apparently feel asleep but it was the action of his son that scripture points to as causing Noah to curse him.
Gideon – Gideon was a military hero and spiritual leader who delivered Israel from the oppression of the Midianites whom the Lord Himself called a man of valor. A brief time of insecurity had no affect on thousands of individuals as it was no intentional.
Paul – He confessed his sin and admitted his zeal in persecuting Christians was out of ignorance. Following his conversion the Lord gave him a very special ministry to the gentiles.
Sarah was perfectly within her rights to offer Abraham a bondwoman to bear a son. The law of the land (most likely the Code of Hammurabi) at the time made this custom both legal and acceptable. Those same laws also permitted her to send Hagar away for showing disrespect to her mistress. She is noted as an example of holy women in the NT.
Since when is worrying, being old, being short, depressed or dead considered imperfections? Those are simply natural, normal human characteristics.
Others examples given by you are not comparable to the greed we are seeing by one believer refusing to be held accountable for the exorbitant use of finances.
There are many scriptures that speak to greed, the love of money, and good stewardship. There are none that I’m aware of that speak to being short, depressed, dead, etc. Your examples are apples and oranges imo.
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Amy Smith wrote:
Thanks for posting those links Amy. I just finished reading “This Little Light: Beyond a Baptist Preacher and His Gang.” Author Christa Brown mentions numerous incidents that sound like the same reaction you got. I would highly recommend her book.
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He truly sounds mentally unstable.
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Daisy wrote:
The Party Can Do No Wrong.
Ees Party Line, Comrades.
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“Sympathy For Da Furtick?”
hmmm…
Elevation Church is not a new testament ‘church’ in the true biblical sense of the word.
…go fish?
Steven Furtick, may not be a true Christian ‘pastor’ in the true since of the word, none neither…
What?
Both Elevation Church, and Steven Furtick may very well be counterfeits.
huh?
How many more ‘pastors’ ‘n’ churches’ are counterfeits as well?
Bedazzled and bewildered, the young folk simply don’t know the difference today, so you have a Stockholm syndrome type of atmosphere whereby which they can be encouraged without a moments notice to denounce as ‘Haters’ those who give the least bit of resistance.
Satan loves division. in fact he is the author of it.
keep it up….
His whispering servants don’t need ta be bang’in on a tin roof in the city on seven hills to demonstrate their pleasure. They are quite content to bask in their blacken’d caldron here in Lady Liberty.
Can you blame them?
(sadface)
*
BUT know this , that in the last days perilous times shall come. For folks shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. But evil folk and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
BUT as for you, continue in the things which you have learned and having been made assured of, knowing from God’s precious words, you have learned them; – that you should really know the holy scripture, – they are not throwaways!, but able to make one wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus, God’s Son. Remember also, dat all of scripture has a place, – given by inspiration of God, – being profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness, that God’s precious people may be adequately equip’d for a work well done. None of this has ever changed.
Who moved the stone?
hmmm…
“The grass withers, the flower fade: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.” ~Isaiah 40:8
Sopy
___
The Rolling Stones – Sympathy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRXGsPBUV5g&feature=youtube_gdata_player
—
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Steven Furtick: “Give Me Shelter?”
“If I don’t get me some tax shelter,
Oh yeah, I’m gonna fade away,
Salvation, Elevation children, it’s just a tithe away…”
Steven Furtick fade away?
Dream on…
(grin)
hahahahahahaha
Sopy
____
Comic relief: The Rolling Stones – ‘Gimme Shelter?’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yGFuX2KDQs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
—
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Taking lessons from NewSpring, eh?
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This isn’t Big Box but seriously, I poked around and Doug Phillips’ church is scaaaaaaary. Which, I already knew but of course I had to go look more closely…
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2013/11/07/the-proof-is-in-the-chalice/
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Yes, self-employed people. You know how they are. Most unreliable witnesses since women. (correct me if this isn’t what he was referring to since I haven’t watched the report)
These should probably be included in psychology textbooks as the definition of projection.
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@ Seneca:
Are you saying that because Furtick has such a glaring problem, then he must be one of the called? Maybe that churches should preferentially hire the bad boys rather than the good boys when calling a pastor? Maybe churches should be delighted when one of the “good boys” gets into trouble because he, therefore, must be one of the called?
That’s just nuts.
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@ Amy Smith:
Yay for Julie Anne Smith. She deserves such recognition.!!!
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Didn’t Pastor Furtive explicitly say to his congregation that the press and TV reporters are NOT the enemy? At least in public?
Either Matt didn’t get the memo, or else Stevie’s supporters are getting other messages off camera.
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Daisy wrote:
Thank you for a good laugh!
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Daisy wrote:
No doubt. Great comment!
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Seneca wrote:
Is perfection the standard or pure in heart which comes out in behavior over time? Besides in your OT examples some of them would be in prison today. Why do people trot out OT characters to excuse sin today? I don’t get that. I think they miss the larger narrative.
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@ Wendy Alsup: Have you read what happened to Dr James Duncan. He won a settlement from Perry Noble’s NewSpring Church? I am afraid that this sort of communication/activity is becoming normative within certain groups. Noble is an advisor for Furtick.
http://www.pajamapages.com/holy-rage-at-the-spring-2/
Also, Mac Brunson of FBC Jacksonville called Tom Rich a sociopath in the local newspaper. He lost the lawsuit and had to apologize. This sort of thing is becoming normative.
I believe it was the crassness of Mark Driscoll who started this whole devolution.
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Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
You and I think alike!!! Look at the comment I made to Wendy Alsup. I am impressed that more people do not know about this contemptible story. Dr Duncan is a good guy. People were signing him up for porno magazines, interfering with adoptions, buying cares in his name, disgusting…
Then Furtick puts Noble on his advisory committee??? That speaks volumes. There will be more of this stuff to come.
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Nancy wrote:
I thought he meant the same thing. But old Seneca has a history of such statements on this blog. His statement prove the need for discussions like this.
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Anon 1 wrote:
Great comment. Loved the prison part. Lots of guys in the OT would have been arrested in today’s world. Can God use them? Of course. But some of them need to be used behind bars, converting the prison population.
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Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
It’s a Southern thing. Hide behind your wife and your pretend “good ol boy” friend and your baby brother. Then you can laugh it off. Kind of like Jimmy Carter and his brother. However, Billy pushed beer. This crowd is supposedly pushing Jesus . You can laugh off the beer. It is hard to laugh off what is being done in the name of the Gospel.
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Sopwith wrote:
You may be right about the Elevators being in a Stockholm syndrome atmosphere.
From Wikipedia:
I understand from a reliable source that if someone in Elevation Church is caught yawning, Furtick taunts them by saying something like "Why don't you just go home?"
Then there's the hypnotic effect of the sound and lights. It seems to be working so well that now they're making a $9,000,000 investment to keep the Elevators in a trance.
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@ TW:
Oh, yes, straight out of the SBC play book. I’m almost done with Christa’s book. I highly recommend it as well. It’s the story of one brave woman crying out in the wilderness. Her light is shining and moving the mountains of silence darkness, lies and deceit. I was finally able to meet her in July at the SNAP national convention. I gave her a big hug!
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Seneca wrote:
Isn’t that a longwinded way of saying “EVERYBODY’S DOING IT!”?
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dee wrote:
Welcome to The Body of Christ(TM).
Don’t you just want to Be SAVED(TM)?
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“Elevated Humbug?”
@ Deb
hmmm…
Pay no attention to the man behind the nineteen Acre, 13.000 Sq. Ft. McMansion, Eh?
(grin)
hahahahahahahaha
Sopy
____
Comic relief: “The Great and Mighty Furtick Hath Spoken?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZR64EF3OpA&feature=youtube_gdata_player
—
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One of the most disturbing trends among ‘Christianity’ is the move toward authoritarianism and the accompanying fear and intimidation used to enforce that authority, particularly among ‘celebrity’ ‘ministers’ and the neoCal movement. We can all thank God for the religious liberty granted us in the U.S. Constitution because if some of these guys were able to have the power of the state behind them, we’d have inquisitions all over again. Whatever gospel it is they’re preaching it is NOT the Gospel.
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Dee
Churches like this gives all the small churches with sincere under paid pastors a bad name.Elevation Church does not represent the historic christian faith that is taught in the bible.Sad so very sad.
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wondering how long before we see a newspring survivor’s blog and an elevation survivor’s blog…and I’m not being sarcastic. Any former members or “owners” ready to get started? These things need to be exposed from those that were once on the inside.
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If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen! This is big boy stuff, we are going after souls, after the devil, and the crown of life.
Matt Furtick understands this is battle! If you want to throw verbal darts, be careful, a few maybe coming back at you!
We are fighting mad at Elevation!
In football, if somebody goes after your quarterback, you go after them.
This is not violent, but it is personal.
We will not sit back any longer and watch our pastor be slaughtered like a lamb. He has done nothing wrong, this is a capitalistic society.
We rejoice when LeBron James get some agent, when Beyoncé gets a mansion, why not rejoice when your pastor gives a mansion?
We don’t understand this attack?
It’s coming from the gates of Hell, I can smell the sulfur on this website.
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If Lawing is not a parody, he needs to be hospitalized.
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An Attorney wrote:
That’s for sure. As others have noted, it’s almost impossible to parody extremist views flat on the page – no matter what you say it looks the same as the views being parodied.
His last post reminds me of Sean Connery in The Untouchables “He pulls a knife, you pull a gun. He puts one of yours in the hospital, you put one of his in the morgue.”
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@ dude: I know that there are wonderful pastors and churches out there. But, they are remaining silent about this trend. I admire those who speak out against it .But there does seem to be a code of not speaking out against fellow pastors, even if the fellow pastors are idiots.
This silence contributes to the problem since attendees in these churches are trained to think that this stuff is normal. When I saw the standing ovation that Furtick got for simply building a mansion, I realized just how many people out there can be deceived.
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dee wrote:
What is the underlying reason for their silence?
Perhaps it is because they secretly covet what Furtick, Driscoll, Noble, MacDonald, Mahaney, are doing and hope to crack the code that will enable them to soar to such heights of success as well. Of course, not to own a mansion and be escorted by a phalanx of security bodyguards everywhere they go – but to “reach more people for the Kingdom” and be more effective “leaders.” So the silnce continues. And the sheeple continue to buy the books and listen to the podcasts.
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Tim Lawing wrote:
LOL
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@ Tim Lawing:
. . . so you’re advocating being in the world and of it then, just like LeBron? I don’t want to misunderstand you here.
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Light on a hill? More like a Carny that breezes into a town full of easy marks. A re-reading of Ray Bradbury’s Something Wicked This Way Comes is instructive here.
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@ Tim Lawing:
Your response is not Christlike by any stretch of the imagination.
Christ doesn’t ask for ‘big boy stuff’, but for a mature christian response.
The bible states that we are to shine a light into dark places to expose, and frankly if there is nothing there? It should be no big deal. The church of all places has a responsibility to be more transparent than most places. Its a no brainer there.
When you have the pastor’s brother coming at a reporter like a teenager? Common sense and a use of discernment SHOULD show you that it raises questions. if you have children you know they use this tactic at times to divert attention off themselves. They don’t realize it doesn’t work, but in time learn they tend to be in more hot water for acting like that. That’s called growing into maturity. They learn to stand accountable, and not divert.
There are mature ways of handling the hot seat, and then you have the ‘big boy’ approach that truly needs a mature adult to handle it for them. This is called life, and we don’t live in a football locker room.
Seriously. If your organization can’t do a better job at standing up for yourselves? Do you organization a huge favor, and hire someone to do it for you.
These types of responses is what repels people from the church, and circling the wagons? It causes people to stumble away, and not draw people near.
Think about it.
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JeffT wrote:
“Chicago Rules.”
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Muff Potter wrote:
Didn’t Anton LaVey start out as a Carny?
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Want to read about a REAL pastor? You know, one that smells like sheep? I offer Kumar:
http://branthansen.typepad.com/letters_from_kamp_krusty/2008/02/kumar-sits-in-t.html
Steven Furtick/Elevation make me sick and angry, but mostly sad.
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You know what’s rather sad is the thing he was quoting I first heard in a video on Christian TV, but it was meant to encourage Christians who feel they are too bad or messed up to be used of by God.
It’s meant to be an inspirational video to help Christians who have low self esteem get past that and realize God still can use them and love them in spite of their flaws or messed up history.
You can watch the video here:
God does not call the qualified…
It was not meant to excuse any and all misdeeds or willful sins.
It was a video clip that was aired a few years ago for a few months in a row on TBN, by Paul Crouch Jr. A few months ago, mega church preacher Joel Osteen quoted from it in one of his sermons.
It’s true that all Christians stumble and make mistakes at times, so they should not feel disqualified from serving God, but the Steve Furticks of the Christian world are deliberately making questionable (possibly sinful / selfish) choices.
People can’t help things such as being depressed, dying, stuttering, or some issues are tied up with natural personality defects, such as Apostle Peter’s impetuous nature (which are all things mentioned in the video).
People who work as preachers, however, can very much help not getting involved in shady or questionable business deals, or being dishonest with church finances, or not being upfront about how they bought a $2 million (or whatever $) mansion.
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PP wrote:
I’m sorry if this is considered in poor taste, but my sense of humor being what it is, we can help them come up with a name for their new blog(s).
Former Elevators can call their new blogs discussing leaving Elevation, “Going Up,” or “Taking the Stairs Now.”
I don’t have anything for New Spring.
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@ Tim Lawing:
Is that another parody post? I really cannot tell at this point. The Sharon Long / Mr. Rogers posts are parody, but I don’t know about Lawing.
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Daisy wrote:
Unsprung?
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dee wrote:
Ding, Ding, Ding…we have a winner, these ministers who just sit in silence and do nothing….what are they afraid of? It makes yo wonder if secretly they are hoping to get rich in the pulpit too…
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gus wrote:
Or: “sprung free” ?
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Here is an example of a true pastor. Please note I am paraphrasing the email I received, and have changed places and names. This happened last year at this time. I almost cried when I read it to our congregation. I never heard the outcome, but I believe God answered the prayers of His people in this matter.
Dear John,
I am writing to you asking for prayer. My friend, Tom is a missionary in another country. Over the years, he has seen some people become followers of Jesus. A small church has sprung up in the community. Tom and his family came stateside for furlough and rest. While Tom was here, one of his fellow elders, who was a convert of Tom’s, was turned in and arrested for switching religions. In 5 days, he will stand trial along with his wife. If they are found guilty, it could mean prison and/or death. As there pastor and friend, Tom said, “I am leaving in two days to fly back. I have told this man that I will stand trial with him, and go to prison with him if need be. After all, this is what good pastors do…”
I can only hope and pray that if the call came, I would be this faithful as this pastor was last year. This is a stark difference than most of the celebrity pastors we see. Oh that God would raise up more pastors like this…
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These people (Furtick, et. al.) are as desperate for celebrity as anyone on a typical “reality” show.
Not sure what any of this has to do with Christ or xtianity, and I honestly have been going out of my way to avoid knowing any more about these guys than necessary. (Same strategy I used re. the Bakkers and others, back in the day.)
This is farcical (and tragic) on a grand scale. Too bad that the instigators and participants cannot see that (or choose not to).
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dee wrote:
Thanks, Dee. I haven’t read that website. In general, I think there is a lot of mental instability, narcissism and short-man syndrome in particular, among some of these guys.
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The “parody” is not me, it is this entire blog.
Pastor Steven has always taught us that we are the head and not the tail.
As Coach Nick Saban of Alabama said on 60 minutes this past Sunday: “Mediocre people don’t like high achievers and high achievers don’t like mediocre people.”
Elevation gives $66k or 12% of our income a WEEK BACK to our community…what are YOU doing?
The reason we are hated is because we are the lead dog and if you are not the lead dog, your scenery never changes.
I guarantee you by the end of 2020, Elevation will be the top church in the USA, our goal is 100,000 members.
Pastor Steven is a gift from God to us and we treasure him.
Bow down to Piper and wash the feet of MacArthur if you want too, but both of them are way too Reformed and so BORING! This is the “new wine skins” and we are rocking the flock in Charlotte NC!!!
To God be the Glory!!!
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numo wrote:
In the words of the Prophet Weird Al Yankovic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRcfDmkrhAI
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@ Wendy Alsup:
Wendy
I urge you to read Dr Duncan’s account. You don’t need to read the whole website-just the link.
This goes beyond anything that I have ever read and, as you know, I have read a lot. I guarantee that you have never, ever read heard anything like this. Oh yeah, he did receive a settlement and he deserved that settlement more than just about anyone I know.
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@ PP:
Wow! What an amazing story! The sad truth was best represented in Dee and Deb’s post about a woman pastor in Haiti who had Mark Driscoll speak at her conference. Driscoll arrived with body guards, demanded to be taken back to the airport as soon as he was done speaking, despite the woman being busy with the conference (which was still on-going), then dumped her from missionary support because she was a woman, after using her to get his “appearance” in Haiti. The guy acted like Chicken Sh*t, terrified and hiding behind body guards, too afraid to stay in the country more than a few hours. Meanwhile, this woman lived there, had no body guards and no fear of the people she served. Yet Driscoll thinks men should protect women.
I would have loved, I mean LOVED, to see Driscoll get separated from his body guards and have to rely on her to navigate his way around Haiti. He would have clung to the back of her skirts, whimpering. In Haiti, he is nobody, so he can’t use celebrity as an excuse.
But remember – Driscoll thinks women need protection and to be lead by men. Hahahahaeeehawhawheehahaha!
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gus wrote:
Or just “Sprung”.
Vorsprung durch Technik, as they say in Germany.
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Tim Lawing wrote:
Even that post read like a parody. If you’re doing a parody, or poeing, congrats on a job well done.
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@ PP:
I am so encouraged to hear that there are still Christians like this in the world. I mean, I *know* there are through all the comments on these blogs. Still, hearing that story fills me with hope. Hope is a precious commodity these days.
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@ Val:
Speaking of Driscoll
The Mark Driscoll Scholarship Fund for Women in Ministry
😆
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dee: ‘I know that there are wonderful pastors and churches out there. But, they are remaining silent about this trend. I admire those who speak out against it .But there does seem to be a code of not speaking out against fellow pastors, even if the fellow pastors are idiots.’
I think there is a code which suggests people should keep a dignified silence. But more generally, history tell us that people fail to speak out because of a number of reasons, including those in the list below:
1. Wishful thinking – they want to think the best of people and make excuses.
2. The person provides something that they implicitly want and this causes them to overlook things that they would normally reject. For example, people want to be part of a powerful movement that provides them with self esteem and the promise of good times ahead and will overlook the failings of their leader even if it goes against their ‘normal’ ethical code.
3. Discounting what has happened and blaming other people; it is not really the person – they wouldn’t do that.
4. Fear – the consequences of speaking out mean being in opposition and perhaps losing privileges and status or possibly punishment.
5. Ignorance – sources of information are carefully controlled and crafted so as to ‘normalise’ what is going on. In churches such as Elevation, the leaders ‘control’ the information, which is why are so angry when they lose control because the media gets involved.
To me, 2 is the most insidious and dangerous and explains why even in a democracy large groups of people – nations, can follow the wrong person without question, until perhaps it is too late.
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@ Daisy:
Speaking of folk who stay in character, the same is generally true of method-actors on film-sets in between takes. Ralph Fiennes is such an actor, and apparently he was quite creepy to be around on the Harry Potter sets. Although the snaky nostrils were added by CGI during post-production, in all other respects he looked like Voldemort all the time and behaved like him as well.
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@ Daisy:
[Takes sip of water]…
PFSSSFFSSSSHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Ditto-I just got off the floor!!!!!!!! I may start a fund raiser here.
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Daisy wrote:
First recipient to be Yvonne Trimble, to try and make up for his reneging on his pledge of support.
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TedS. wrote:
Most clergy I work with really know nothing about these dudes. We in the mainline churches have our own share of problems, no doubt. I’d never have paid any attention to it myself, if it wasn’t for spending so many years listening to Mark Driscoll, Matt Chandler, and Craig Groschell on podcast.
But these “gentlemen” defame the name of Christ–that’s enough to get my attention.
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Tim Lawing wrote:
Hey, I called Poe on this guy days ago. 😀
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JeffT wrote:
AMEN!
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Read through it all, Dee. Very ugly. And all too familiar.
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@ Tim Lawing:
OH MY WORD. This sounds just like Amway people!!!
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@ PP:
This is it. The real thing.
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@ Anon 1:
Or POD People*!!
*reference: Invasion of the Body Snatchers
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“Throw a rock into a pack of dogs, and the one who yelps the loudest, is the one who got hit.”
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Tim Lawing wrote:
Then he is a heretic. Christ is our Head. No man–pastor or not–need apply.
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Furtick also reminds me of this, which I think HUG already posted on a different thread. 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QNulAWZC4s
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( Kudos to the NC DOT, home of the Wartburg Winsome, women-drivers, Wenches)
On Wednesday, the NCDOT sent out an alert which reads: “A High severity incident has been Added for I-40 Eastbound in Wake County in Raleigh,” going on to list the incident as “Vehicle Accident: Women Drivers, Rain, Obama Care.” They then advised people to stay home.
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OFF TOPIC, but relevant to another topic here:
Jerry Jenkins public apology to Moody in the comments section:
http://theelephantsdebt.com/2013/10/18/world-magazine-reports-on-jerry-jenkins-gambling-with-james-macdonald-and-connects-this-story-to-the-elephants-debt/#comments
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@ Seneca Griggs: And there is a reason he was fired. This message was texted to commuters who get emergency up dates on traffic conditions. I do not want my tax dollars being used to play games.
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dee wrote:
Didn’t know anybody was fired. Obviously he’s not a Washington D.C. bureacrat which guarantees you’re never fired regardless of how badly you mess things up. ( J. Sebelious anyone?)
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@ Seneca Griggs:
He was. However, the current health care debacle is certain to cause tempers to flare on all sides. Can we stick away from politics? We get in enough trouble as it is.
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I have to admit, Tim Lawling gave me a long, full belly laugh. Well done, sir, the perfect Poe. Of course, the point is that Lawling’s parodied response hasn’t got a bit of Christianity in it. It is Nietzsche with a Christian patina.
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Dear Lord God,
Is StevenF confused, thinking he does You great service, yet, in reality, damaging, and taking advantage of those that love You? – that You have faithfully called by your Holy Name? Please Lord, come down and deliver all those from harm, who come or attend the place called Elevation. Please let no harm come to them there that earnestly seek Your face! Please drive out with cords all those who would thieve and steal from those gathered there in the precious name of Your Son, Jesus! Raise up with and without those who would be faithful to Your house, let the strong man be bound, that he might not spoil the goods of Your house, In Jesus’ Name, I pray, Amen!
Thank-You!
Your friend,
Sopy
—
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@ Tim Lawing:
Sorry little Timmy, the only sulfer you smell is from Elevation “Church.” You and the other mental midgit sociopaths running Elevation have done great damage to true Christianity.
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@ Tim Lawing:
Sorry Timmy, wrong answer. You and your ilk aren’t liked because people don’t like frauds. Oh sorry, to call you guys frauds is an offense to real fraudsters everywhere.
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Alan
Tim Lawing is a parody written by somebody I suspect has long grown weary of Elevation.
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@ Bridget:
Don’t waste your time Bridget. For small minded narcicists like Timmy, thinking and making rational points aren’t going to be his strong suit.
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@ dee:
Oops. Sorry Dee, I was duped again. It’s almost not fair you know. 🙂 People like me (and many of your other fine readers) are so angry about this garbage, then you have folks who write these great parodies.
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@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
Excuse my ignorance. Who/what is Poe? Is this a popular culture reference? I am completely out of it, I am afraid.
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Anon 1 wrote:
Named after a guy named Poe who is credited as the author of Poe’s Law, which says essentially that you can’t parody extreme fundamentalist beliefs on the Internet without using smileys, etc. because they always come out looking just like the extremist posts they’re trying to parody.
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Tim Lawing wrote:
What if you’re a High Achiever in one area and Mediocre in another or the rest?
It’s like Marxists defining someone as Worker or Capitalist. According to last year’s tax records, I’m 85% Worker and 15% Capitalist. Where do I fit in on an either/or rating?
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There is so much love on this website. It is truly amazing and uplifting.
Matthew 22.37,38 & 39 NLT
Jesus said; You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is EQUALLY IMPORTANT, love your neighbor as yourself.
Matthew 22.37,38 & 39 NLT
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
You are irrevocably tainted, and hated by both sides in that world. You are neither 100% A nor 100% B, therefore a traitor to both groups and no A and No B can be seen with you!!!!!
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@ JeffT:
Thanks for the question Anon1, and JeffT thanks for the answer. I was clueless about Poe as well.
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@ Hester:
LOLOLOL
That is the perfect theme song for one of these Furtick posts!
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A grown up PK
I think this is the first time anyone has said there is love on this website as opposed to hate when it comes to Furtick. Thank you.
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@ An Attorney:
Off topic somewhat, but this is a problem in many Christian discussions. Many biblical truisms are described in the biblescriptures themselves in terms of an interplay between two apparent opposites. (Eg: is God sovereign, or are we responsible? To which the answer is, yes.) And many aspects of Christian life, or church life collectively, have several distinct elements which are all necessary and individually insufficient. But most of us tend to gravitate towards one half of the truth or one element of the spiritual life skill. And if air-time is given to anything else, we’ll worry that their Favourite Thing is being excluded.
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Daisy wrote:
I hope it’s followed by the following:
The John Piper Scholarship Fund for Women Who Want to Master Karate
The John Piper Scholarship Fund for Women Weightlifters
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Steven Furtick: “If You Know Jesus, …Elevation Church Is Not For You…”
Elevation Church is not a true New Testament “Church”, in the ‘biblical’ sense, as outlined in the New Testament Book of Acts, but a christian outreach ministry that requests that the un-saved give this 501c nonprofit corporation money citing the bible as the source of the request. Once the individual makes a profession of faith, they are strongly encouraged to attend religious services elsewhere in the community, as this is a 501c non-profit who’s stated purpose is to seek and save the lost. Once ‘saved’ this church is not for you, is the saying. This ministry is akin to the old tent ministries where a traveling evangelist would set up a tent for a season, and preach the message of salvation to all those of the community in attendance. Only Steven Furtick is acting as a “stay in the community” evangelist, electronic media notwithstanding . The long term results/effects of this 501c religious not-for-profit corporation, is yet to be determined.
Christians are to be forewarned: “If You Know Jesus”, Steven Furtick says that his church is not for you.
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Notes:
Video: Steven Furtick – What is the purpose of this church? Here the Pastor of Elevation Church, in Charlotte NC. expounds upon ‘why’ his church exists…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wILPzCyWYk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_Church
The church description here does not include stating the intended purpose of this 501c religious non-profit ‘church’.
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