…If you can’t dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull…” WC Fields
(Special thanks to Muff)
Well, well, well, all is well in Elevation land. Holly Furtick is getting money from a non-profit, bless her heart.Update 11/6: It appears the money that is given to the senior pastor's wife in the WCNC report is for the Senior Pastor's wife at Forest Hills Church. We apologize for the confusion. The people are being entertained by $9 million (for this year alone) in audiovisual equipment. Number 8,234 is being told to tithe and we now know just how many times Steven Furtick wears a v-neck shirt. And "Chunks" will not tell anyone how much he and his good buddy bank while people eagerly line up to call themselves by number on a video. PT Barnum is smoking a cigar and having a good laugh in the Great Hereafter.
The following quotes are from the WCNC report link. This is the sort of stuff that warms the cockles of an MBA's heart.
They've given you a number and takin' 'way your name. (See final video if you don't get it.)
Elevation’s founding principles called “The Code” state “we are all about the numbers”, and emphasize a reliance on numbers as metrics for growth and success. In one promotional film for Elevation, congregation members identify themselves by the “number” of the order in which they joined the church.
All secret agents know that secrets must be kept.
Elevation proudly shares some numbers while keeping others a closely guarded secret. For instance, it totals the number of salvations as 3,785 this year through the first of September, and the number of baptisms as 3,519. It systematically counts the number of people at each service in its eight locations, now regularly totaling more than 14,000 a week.
The number of breath mints a pastor eats is very, very important to know. Bad breath has been shown to be an attendance killer.
Elevation does not disclose its audited financial statement, even to donors and members. Instead it releases a glossy, full-color annual report. The report counts the number of breath mints one “campus pastor” eats, the number of minutes of music from the rock band AC/DC played at the church, and whether the pastor wears a V-neck shirt. It does not reveal the pastor’s salary or benefits.
$10 Million in 10 years to charity. $9 Million in 1 year to audiovisual. ROFL!!!!!!!
Talk about baffling with bull! Good night! So, when are y'all getting 3D?
The numbers include more than $9 million for audio, video and lighting alone.
Keep this up and they will be taxing churches! And Dee won't blame them.
As a religious non-profit, when Elevation buys a property, that property no longer generates property tax revenue.
So it’s a fair question not just for Elevation donors but for all of us as taxpayers: What are we getting in exchange for these tax breaks? And what is Pastor Steven getting? The law does not require him to tell you – and he’s not going to.
Perhaps they should consider getting the kids and the in laws in on the action?
We are sure that the Elevation people are so glad that Holly Furtick is making some bank in this deal as well. Poor thing will need lots of help cleaning that house. Oh, the travails of success... See the update at the top of the post. It does not appear that Holly Furtick is getting money from a non-profit.
Update: 10:59 AM: TWW predicts the next big word, bigger than "audacious" and "winsome" will be "metrics." When you hear your megapastor spouting off about "metrics," you will know who he is emulating. Why should Furtick be the only one to make bank on numbers?
I dedicate this song to the many, many numbers at Elevation.
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First to comment!
Thanks a lot, Dee… Now I'll be hearing that song in my head all day long. Church has become quite a numbers game.
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Membership by number…..so if you give more, could your number raise to number #3 or perhaps #1? Could that be in the future? A sign of your loyalty to the church?
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Well, well, well. So it’s not about the Gospel at Furtick’s church, surprise, surprise (NOT!), just a cynical money-making scheme. It’s not about shepherding souls, it’s about the number of sheep to be shorn, who’d a thunk it!
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In the words of a Furtick overseer, aka Uncle Jack, “I have to sacrifice the few for the good of the many” regarding his failure to report known child sex abuse at Prestonwood. This is the SBC way, numbers not souls. One word comes to mind: millstone.
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“We are Elevation Church, NGH*”
*No Gospel Here
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such a reproach on Christ. glad what was hidden is is being exposed. sadly, many small churches are not guiltless here; they just don’t get the coverage. They are all about the numbers too. As a pastor, half of the members in my church is consumed with our numbers and our budget. I long for the day when churches primary concern is not numbers and budgets, but holiness and biblical faithfulness and actual true growth i.e. truly new regenerate people who have not grown up in church being baptized into the community of faith.
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Amy Smith wrote:
The SBC will tolerate pretty much anything for the sake of numbers – except women in the pulpit.
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Two words: Oy vey.
This so-called “report” is a parody of itself. I’m not sure any of us could add to it.
Great article, Dee!
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PP wrote:
They have mistakenly bought into the Americanization of the faith.
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JeffT wrote:
Ouch.
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What a circus! Most of the followers must obviously buy into The Code. Where is Little Miss Holly getting her money from? Any idea?
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Odd thing about that “confidential” annual report, that is kept all secret and hard to get your hands on, is that there is NO confidential, secret information in the thang!! It’s all smoke and mirrors. When a member (that isn’t a member because they don’t have membership?!) sees it, they probably think they’ve hit the big time, unless they’re knowledgeable enough to realize there’s nothing worth seeing in it!
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…Is this a joke?
Seriously.
You can find out how many breath mints the pastor eats, but you’re not allowed to know Furtick’s salary or read the church by-laws?
Sorry to be rude but…WTF?!
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@ Bridget: It is mentioned in the above video. Some non-profit. Since it is in the annual report, it must have something to do with Elevation.
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Does the congregation at Elevation Church even know that their church is Southern Baptist?
It's perplexing to me that some who attend The Summit do not realize they are Southern Baptists.
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$9 mil in one year for sound and lights??? Is this a contract with a company that provides them? If so, who owns the company? Great way to shuffle $$$ to someone.
Having been on church budget committees and personnel committees, the above board stuff one can do should be sufficient. But I suspect there is some other means of transfer going on here.
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Deb wrote:
I really doubt they do or care to know. The important thing to know is whether their pastor wears v-neck shirts.
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“Cash rules everything around me
C.R.E.A.M get the money
Dollar, dollar bill y’all” -Wu-Tang Clan
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Hester wrote:
Because Breath Mints are CELEBRITY INTEREST!
Just like Justin Beiber’s latest piercings and hairstyle!
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OK, here’s the thing: it’s likely just a matter of time before the whole things crashes from within because of corruption. It may start with hiding the finances, but it rarely ends there. When people put themselves in a situation where they can hide their actions and dealings and avoid accountability, they are just asking to be overwhelmed with temptation. Sin has a way of spreading way beyond just one area.
Unfortunately, I’ve seen this kind of thing several times in my life, a couple of times up very close with people I thought I could trust. In both those cases I got away from it as fast as I could, and at considerable personal cost (specifically, loss of a job in one case, and loss of a relationship in another). It’s not pretty. Anyone with half an ounce of discernment and brainpower should flee this kind of situation while they still can.
Lord have mercy.
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“Scripturally Impaired Pastors?”
hmmm…
“Script-ure-less sermons are the new “spirituaudacious.” Just liisten to your pastors’ sermons and see how long it takes for scripture to appear…”
(sadface)
poof…noth’in up ma sleeve…
Presto!
(grin)
hahahahahahaha
ppppppPastor, Pa Pa Plezze …we gotz youze number…
Sopy
___
Inspirational Relief: “Thy word”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xw2P7zxU0Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Comic Relief: Peter Gabriel’s – “Big Time”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBAl9cchQac&feature=youtube_gdata_player
—
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An Attorney wrote:
What an interesting thought!
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John wrote:
I am astounded by the people who lined up to announce their “number.” Perhaps it made them feel like they are a part of something important. They might not have been able to comprehend that they were simply becoming a statistic. It is actually a bit sad.
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Deb wrote:
Does the SBC even know what SBC is anymore?
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Did some quick calculations; as a pastor of a church roughly 1/50th the size of Elevation, it only takes us 10 years to give away approx. $1 million. In other words, if Elevation gave away $ at the fairly normal rate we try to (approx. 20% of total budget), they would have given away closer to $50 million by now.
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pcapastor wrote:
But you actually care about giving money away to the needy. It appears to me that Elevation seems to be more interested in quoting a number to get people to shut up about all the other money that appears to be devoted to stupid visuals of people stating their “number.”
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@ pcapastor: That is an excellent comment. I also suspect that the number would be even higher if all the sources on income were actually known.
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Dee wrote:
More fun with numbers:
For every $1 a normal person gives to a fairly normal church like mine, approx. $0.20 is given away; for every $1 someone gives to Elevation, something like $0.04 is given away.
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@ pcapastor:
Yup. And Elevation brags about its giving.
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“You are Number Six.”
“Who is Number One?”
“That would be telling.”
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Revolting. Pathetic. Embarrassing. Predictable. I am so over the bandwagons of supposed Christianity. All of the many wrong streams are flowing together into a mighty river rushing somewhere very fast—soon Furtick, Driscoll, Young, Groeschel, Stanley, Houston, Jakes, Meyer, Bentley, et al, will be utterly indistinguishable. A stinking potage of greed, narcissism, and doctrinal error dressed up as leadership life skills.
In other news, and NOT to defend His Furtiveness in ANY way, I understood the news report to say the $9 mil was for a/v at all of the proposed sites…? In any case, that seems in the range of Cirque de Soleil, not a church! Come to think of it, this please-the-masses approach is rather akin to the mind-set that produced the coliseum. How quaint! At least this one comes with better lighting and breath mints! Lets hear it for Furtickus Caesar!
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Lisa wrote:
You could be correct. If that is true, then your next point is well taken.Lisa wrote:
However, Elevation and Cirque appear to have much in common. A lot of juggling and a lot of money coming in to watch it.
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In a con game, it’s important that the con man get the mark emotionally invested in the con. Especially if the mark has invested time/money/energy; rather than admit they were wrong and got scammed, the mark will stay in the con getting scammed and swear undying loyalty to the con man. Otherwise, the mark has to admit he screwed up/got stupid and got taken.
And #10,342 is just another mark at the bottom of the Pyramid swearing his undying loyalty to the capstone. Rather than admit that he got screwed and all his enthusiastic Tithes paid for the capstone’s 16000 sq ft house on its 19-acre estate. (And if he just Tithes more, he might even move up the list towards the Top of the Pyramid! I can’t be wrong! I can’t! I can’t!)
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@ dee:
Thanks. My iPhone just had a white space there (this often happens with videos at blog sites). Had to go to the laptop (which is a Mac as well) to view. I don’t know why some videos don’t show up on the iPhone.
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dee wrote:
No, it doesn’t. My 83 yr old mother who’s been SBC forever says she doesn’t recognize anything….the music, the doctrine, the only thing she says stays the same is the quarterly sermon on the tithe….
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Gotta love Steve Taylor….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rV5X6jR9TZY
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
“This week’s “Number Of The Beast” is…
Another thought… Did they skip #666 or did someone actually get that number. I don’t know if I’d sit next to them.
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K.D. wrote:
The only constant is “It’s All About the Benjamins, Baby”?
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$10 Million in 10 years to charity.
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Brian
Too funny! Gonna go and pick the cash cow out of the lineup.
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Identified by membership number? That church building is merely a Borg cube in disguise.
Sick and frightening.
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Lucy Pevensie wrote:
You are number 41 on this post. It is your new designation.
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Hey – can I be 42, then? (The Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything.)
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Sorry – bit late. What was the question again?
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What if you were the #666th to join their church? 😆
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@ Hester:
It’s smoke and mirrors. In the church I used to work at, they did this all the time. (Sigh – took me a while to catch on.) They give the members detailed reports on irrelevant data. The members see it and think, “Wow, they’re really keeping track of their spending down to the details…la la la la la…” The image of keeping track of breath mints suggests sruplious attention to the financial details…. “See, look how we keep track of all these little things”…shown with one hand to distract from what the other hand is doing. Financial Hocus Pocus…..
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@ Nick Bulbeck:
Nick, You are the best 42 I have ever met.
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FBC Jax Watchdogs just posted about Steven Furtick’s brother Matt Furtick and the nasty stuff he’s been tweeting to and about the WCNC reporter, Stuart Watson.http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2013/11/steven-furticks-brother-goes-into.html I looked at Matt Furtick’s Twitter feed and he has also been attacking Keith Larson, the WBT radio talk show host who interviewed Stuart Watson. On Twitter, he’s @MattFurtick.
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Marge Sweigart wrote:
*
Are we upset with Matt Furtick for standing in defense of his brother?
*
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@ Marge Sweigart:
Thank you for this tip. I have contacted Tom .
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I am 4591 at Elevation and very proud of it. God loves Numbers, He named a book of the Bible “Numbers”!
As Pastor Steven always says “We count people because people count”.
You hypocrites who mock our Pastor for counting people….Do you count your offering at your Church but don’t count people? Are you saying that the offering is more important than people?
The reason why your church is rinky dinky is because YOU don’t really care about people!
10 million dollars towards charity since the founding of our Church.
Yes, Pastor will soon live in a mansion, and I promise you…WE DON’T CARE!
God is Greater than your hate!
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Marge Sweigart wrote:
Wow – I just read that over at watchdog. Juvenile to say the least.
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My pastor didn’t call me a number…just a “giving unit”.
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@ Tom R: You’re Number 1 in my book.
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Wow, I just read some of those Matt Furtick tweets and am trying to figure out from which direction I should be prepared to expect an Elevation explosion as I’m staying in a hotel in Uptown Charlotte this week. By the way, it’s cold here compared to the desert Southwest.
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@ Tim Lawing: You guys are too funny!
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Seneca wrote:
Gee- isn’t this just how Jesus and the Apostles would act… Oh, that’s right-those guys are not on his compensation committee. Perry Noble is. That explains it!
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Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
It’s cold here for North Carolina. Starting last spring, 2013 has been the coldest spring, summer and fall that I can remember.
You really should get a picture of yourself holding a bag of Cheetos out in front of Elevation.
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M Joy
Worrisome, to say the least.
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Speaking of numbers…
Elevation Church Internal Report Reveals $86 Million Expansion Plan
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Seneca wrote:
No, too busy laughing.
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@ Tim Lawing:
Hey 4591 you should tattoo your number on your forehead. So when 4592 sees you in the foyer you can get the respect you deserve. As as far as your question as to is the offering more important than the people. Let everyone there stop giving and see how long your loving pastor would stay around. I am also glad to hear that the members don’t care about the big house. It would be sad if they did due to the fact they are paying for it.
What really is crazy how people there thinks that none of the scriptures in the bible that talk about how hard it will be for a rich man to get into heaven, don’t apply to your Pastor.
I do have a question for you. If someone leaves the church is their number retired? Or does everyone get a new number. Seems like that number system could be a real problem should the church experience a split. Just one other question. Do they ask you to write your number on your offering check to make it easier on the staff member responsible for the tax form?. If not you might want to make a suggestion. Don’t hurt to makes some points remember there are 4590 people ahead of you. Who knows you might get invited to tour the big house.
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@ Tim Lawing:
Just don’t forget what number Furtick represents (#1), since this is such a numbers game to all of you. I’m sure he won’t let anyone forget. His brother surely isn’t letting anyone forget.
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@ Daisy:
🙂 🙂 🙂
They’ll be in there somewhere!!! Though, that said, maybe they skipped that number for superstitious reasons. A lot of streets here in Blighty don’t have a house numbered 13.
(I know, I know. I don’t make the rules.)
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dee wrote:
Indeed – this chap's good, isn't he? Tim – you should write a song.
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I just read a bunch of Matt Furtick’s tweets and am shocked that nobody has told him to knock it off. He’s resorted to name calling and mocking, all while missing what’s really happening, namely that his brother is eventually going to get called out for having an inappropriately high salary as a pastor. When this all plays out he’ll likely regret the things he’s said over the last few days.
My guess is that WCNC will soon get leaked how much money Furtick is paid as a base salary at Elevation. The figure is probably pretty high ($250k+) and will look bad, especially once all the other $$$ sources reveal total income probably in the $500k to $700k range (once they include the addt’l book sales, speaking, housing allowance, etc). The leadership at Elevation knows this will not look good, thus the stonewalling and avoidance. Once the income figures become public there will be an outcry and PR disaster for the church as people ask how charitable giving can be used for such high salaries. WCNC will probably then find out how much the other leadership is being paid and things will likely get worse.
The problem here is systemic in the church (the greater church) as a whole. The entire “celebrity pastor” element has distorted what the role of a pastor should be. Church has become just an entire production now, and whoever does the best “production” supposedly grows faster and larger than everybody else. The churches then become these bandwagon environments where excitement and exclusivity reign. At the center of it is a relatively small group (50 or less) of celebrity pastors who are making a ton of money off their preaching and leadership. Meanwhile, the leadership is getting younger and younger, thus putting a ton of inexperience in charge of multi-million dollar budgets.
The reality is that there’s no blueprint for what is appropriate compensation for ministers and church leadership, and there is likely never going to be agreement on what’s appropriate vs. what’s too much. One person might feel that $150k to $250k would be appropriate for Furtick, but someone else might say it should never be higher than $100k. Who gets to choose…and based upon what biblical reference? Some might argue that the pastor shouldn’t get paid at all, especially in Furtick’s case. They would say his speaking and book sales are more than enough. Who decides? And how?
What saddens me most is that I heard Furtick preach in person last year and thought his message was one of the most powerful I had ever heard. His message is now being tarnished because of the questions about money, and people will soon become terribly distracted from the good message he was, and is, bringing. All of it could’ve been avoided if he and his advisers had asked, “How will it look if these income figures become public?” I suspect if they thought the figures would become public, that Furtick would be paid less.
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I’m afraid I’m more pessimistic than Tim when putting ‘God,’ ‘numbers’ and the bible together. All I can picture is a hand writing ‘Mene, Mene, Tekel, Parsin’ on a wall. And that story didn’t end well for the king as it meant his days were numbered, he’d been weighed, found wanting and his kingdom would be divided.
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Speak for yourself…Some of us do care.
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Seneca wrote:
No, but he can (or, at least, ought to be able to) defend his brother without insulting professionals, calling them names, and generally acting like a jackass.
@ dee:
Speaking of Matt’s Twitter feed, did you notice he’s received a couple of tweets from a Barbara T. Hutto? (She goes by @_imaclemsongal there.) Rather ominous for poor, “persecuted” Stevie. There might be another story brewing here… (As though you weren’t busy enough already. 😉 )
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Y’know, the more I hear from and about Steven Furtive (thanks, @ Lisa!) the more he resembles another self-styled church leader I’ve read about.
Consider the following:
– he refuses to be interviewed on camera
– will only offer statements or interviews through spokesguys
– even his shills won’t allow themselves to be filmed
– he somehow convinces his parishioners to buy thousands of his books (as HUG pointed out on the previous thread)
– his followers/defenders are forever trying to deflect attention away from the possible problems, and towards his church’s good works for the community (“That’s the REAL story!” they say)
– he’s sitting on a pile of money
Reminds me a lot of a certain David Miscavige, current “ecclesiastical leader” of the “church” of Scientology. So very, very depressing. 🙁
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Be seeing you!
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@ Raymond:
I wanted to let you know that there are some funny people, formerly of Elevation, who parody some of the thinking that they encountered here. This comment is from one of those people.
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David wrote:
Then, he has fools for advisors. When people make that much money, it always comes out. I think he has made the money as quickly as possible so that when it is exposed and the giving declines (if there are actually normal people who attend the church), he will have already made his fortune.
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@ MOs:
Could you please tell us to whom you were responding?
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Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
Looks like I need to do some reading. Who is she? I will Google. There you are, all the way in Japan, and you know more about this area than we do! You’re good! 🙂
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Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
It is the real story. They gave away $10 million in 10 years for charity and spend $9 million in one year for audiovisual equipment. Unfortunately, the Elevators did not think about how that might cause a few smiles.
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@ Estelle:
You made a number of spellyng mistakes, should read:
Meanie, Meanie, Take All, Parson.
NOTE: If this ministry has blessed you and your loved ones, details of where you can send the donation you all owe me (large denomination used notes only please, to facilitate counting) will be provided on request (stamped addressed envelope required).
Thank you. Ken Ministries, a subdivision of In My Mansion There Are Many Houses Inc., a non-prophet organisation.
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@ Ken:
Whoops, my bad.
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@ dee:
Thanks Dee, still had fun with such a crazy concept. Hard for us backwoods people to know the difference.
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@ dee:
Thing is he needs high income to maintain that home and lifestyle even if he owes nothing on it. Furtick has painted himself into a dangerous corner and only through his popularity and celebrity will he be able to maintain this long term. A tenuous position. One has to wonder how long he can bank on that. Of course, he has played the system with his books, etc but these things don’t often last.
He was unwise with how he handled large sums in the first place.
And now we have his brother, Matt, with the emotional mentality of a 13 year old boy defending him on twitter with Furticks wife egging him on. People really find this credible?
It was instructive to see the “evil liberal reporter from the secular media” being more Christlike in his response.
What I see is a redefining of Christianity in too many places. It is fast becoming the refuge of scoundrals and their hangers on.
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dee wrote:
Thanks, Dee! Some of my pastor friends would put “Public Enemy” in front of that #1 rating.
🙂
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Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
I would like to point out that redefining reality with yourself as the Poor Poor Persecuted Victim (Pity Me Pity Me Pity Me) is a classic sociopath tactic. Somewhere on these threads is a comment that one of the major signs of a sociopath is that they cultivate Pity from third parties. Because if you’re pitied, they cut you slack because you’re so pitiful and you can get away with more. Poor Poor Persecuted Victim, Pity Me Pity Me Pity Me.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
HUG: Make that pity me pity me pity me PAY ME!
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dee wrote:
Nah, just happened to click on a few extra conversations on Matt’s Twitter feed, and an interesting-looking convo popped up. I’m probably spending way more time on this stuff than I should, anyway. Need more sleep. X(
I took a screen grab of what I saw, and e-mailed it to you just now. I don’t think this Barbara Hutto has gone public with anything yet — from her tweets, it seems that she was giving Pastor Furtive some time to contact her first. No idea who she is, what her story is, or whether you’ll find anything on Google. Could be nothing there, but I thought I’d let you know.
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Tim Lawing wrote:
@ dee:
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Some of us do care and have some serious concerns.@ MOs:
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@ MOs:
I believe the comment by Tim Lawing is a parody, according to Dee’s comment here @ dee:
I’ve been caught unaware by a few of those myself. 🙂 They are trying to show how ridiculously over-the-top the Elevators’ thinking is.
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BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Fact is, the Elevators’ thinking is SO ridiculously over-the-top you have a hard time figuring out whether it’s a parody or genuine.
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@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
No kidding!!
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
That, of course, is the gist of Poe’s Law.
Poe’s Law was named after Po, the Dragon Warrior and hero of the film Kung Fu Panda, the spin-off TV series from which my daughter is currently watching.
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On a slightly more serious note, though, and by way of welcome to our unorthodox visitors (the blog isn’t mine to welcome them to, but I think I’m within the spirit of the rules here) – sometimes after a long time in this sort of environment, you just need to let off steam.
Sometimes, after reading the comments of spokespersons for the Department of Work and Pensions about how their culture of humiliation, dehumanisation and punishment is all about “helping the jobless into work”, I feel the same way.
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P.S. Typo alert – that should be the Department for Work and Pensions.
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But I digress.
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(Not for the first time.)
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Nick Bulbeck wrote:
The main Los Angeles afternoon drive-time talk radio coined the term “Spokesholes” for just such Official Spokespersons(TM). Probably derived from their speaking coming out the opposite end.
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MOs
That comment was a parody by a former Elevation attendee.
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Take that old dance song from the 1980s by Wham! and replace the words “girl” with “Mega Church Preacher” and other appropriate words:
Everything She Wants by Wham!
The changed lyrics could look something like this:
Do you work?
Somebody told me, “Boy, everything the preacher wants is everything he sees…”
I guess I must have loved you.
‘Cause I said yours was the perfect church for me,
Maybe… But now we’re six months older…
And everything you want and everything you see,
Is out of reach… not good enough…
I don’t know what the hell you want from me but preacher…
Somebody tell me, Won’t you tell me…
Why I work so hard for you?
All to give you money
All to give you money…
Some people work for a living, Some people work for fun,
Preacher, I just work for you
They told me Christianity was a give and take,
Well, show me you can take you’ve got some giving to do.
Now you tell me you’ve bought a huge mansion with church money
I’ll tell you that I’m happy if you want me to
But one step further and my back will break
If my best isn’t good enough
Than how can it be good enough for two?
I can’t work any harder than I do
Work! Work!
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Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
The main Los Angeles afternoon drive-time talk radio coined the term “Spokesholes” for just such Official Spokespersons(TM). Probably derived from their speaking coming out the opposite end.
LOL!! My dad, 2nd generation career Army, used to call them ” personnel pukes.” There was no one lower in his opinion, than blowhards who believed they controlled YOUR destiny, yet seemed to answer to no one. And this, when life and death was at stake. Hmmmmm…. Sounds a bit like…
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Seneca wrote:
Remember Joab? He murdered one man (a better and more righteous man than he, according to Solomon) in defense of his brother. So not all brotherly defense is kosher.
Pingback: Signs of the Apocalypse (or just another day in 2013) | internetmonk.com
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from my new post: Numbers, not souls: a culture ripe for abuse
In any large organization that amasses wealth and power from its constituents, where there is no transparency and accountability, the environment is ripe for abuse and the cover-up of abuse. When the souls of those constituents become numbers that lack individual value, should they decide to leave, they are easily replaced by others eager to take their number among the masses. Numbers are impersonal and lack moral relevance. When confronted with crimes against children in a church like Prestonwood, do the leaders see the souls of those children harmed? Do they see the souls of the children who will be preyed upon when the accused minister is pushed away to a new, unsuspecting church and community?
It is so difficult to be immersed in these abusive cultures and speak out. From my personal experience and hearing from victims, there are people, acting on behalf of churches where abuse has occurred and covered up like at Prestonwood, who intimidate and threaten those who muster the courage to break the silence.
I’ve written about being estranged from my parents, because they are very angry at me for speaking out publicly about the abuse that occurred at Prestonwood. I have heard from one of Langworthy’s victims and his parents who have told me that my dad called, as a deacon of Prestonwood, and told them to leave Langworthy alone, back in 1989. My dad also warned me and my husband in August 2011 after my interview aired on WFAA:
“You and Amy are going to pay a big price for what has been done here. I’m telling you. You don’t go on witch hunts from 22 years ago. You don’t.”
I will not live in fear any longer. I know that my God loves me. His ways are not the ways of an earthly father that seeks to invoke fear in his daughter. What I’ve only told very few people privately is that I grew up living in fear because my dad was physically abusive to my mom. Fear imprisons. Love protects and sets free. Love welcomes the truth. I know the One who is the Truth who sets me free.
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oh, here’s the link http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2013/11/numbers-not-souls-culture-ripe-for-abuse.html
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Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
“And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.”
God can do good work through even a fool. It doesn’t mean we should pursue, or be okay with, foolishness. Every day it amazes me how many people can get caught into idol worship. They love to say how much people worship singers like Britney, but I’ve never seen people more obsessed then those who religiously follow celebrity pastors.
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*Britney Spears. Apologizes for missing the word
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David wrote:
David – couldn’t agree more. The “celebrity pastor” is no pastor at all, but the CEO of a para-church organisation devoted to an unusual form of motivational speaking / lifestyle guru marketing. They invariably add a model of “discipleship” to the basic purchase their clients make at the altar call, but they resemble Weightwatchers more than anything else. They have leadership, weekly meetings and discipleship too.
I like the model that the Church of England uses, which is that their pastors (strictly, “vicars”, which is kind of code for “priests” – but I won’t go to war over the wording) are not paid a salary at all, but a stipend. This is not a payment for services rendered, but a recognition that they have a calling to care for and teach God’s people, and it is intended to enable them to give themselves wholly to their calling without having to worry about how they will feed their families as they do so. It is not particularly large, though it is commonly part of a “package” that includes a house. This itself is (for want of a better phrase) a mixed blessing because the house (or “vicarage”) remains the property of the church and the vicar is generally expected to keep his home open, within reason, for pastoral and other parish duties. Plus, he’s not on the “housing ladder” which can cause hardship if he leaves the ministry. Nobody joins the Anglican priesthood to get rich.
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@ Amy Smith:
I have picked your post at random, as it illustrates something I have been surprised at, having found this site whilst looking for sensible and less partisan comment on the Strange Fire conference.
I wonder just how much abuse has been going on in supposedly Christian homes, where the bible has been misused to justify immature and insecure people damaging others. ‘Wives submit to your husbands’ – is in the bible, but there are clearly far more than I realised to whom this conjures up an image of a doormat with the word ‘Welcome’ written on it. This is hardly living out the faith, why does it seem to produce this in so many people? Are they really Christians, or do they have a piggy-back faith inherited from their parents, knowing all the right phrases to use at church, but no actual faith of their own, only the culture.
Sorry if this is only a general comment on this particular thread, but I am on a steep learning curve, not so much that bad things happen behind the facade of respectable churches, we’ve all seen that, but the extent of this.
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Wait…. isn’t the 9 million in AV equipment for the 5 new locations? At least that’s the way I read it in the report. Not defending the choice in spending but also don’t want to give Furtick & Co grist for the mill.
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Serving Kids in Japan wrote:
Here is a news story http://www.wagenersc.com/january-2013 that refers to Lawana Hutto Furtick. She lived in a town about 100 miles from where Steven is from. Could they be related in some way?
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Steven Furtick: “If You Know Jesus, …Elevation Church Is Not For You…”
Elevation Church is not a true New Testament “Church”, in the ‘biblical’ sense, as outlined in the New Testament Book of Acts, but a christian outreach ministry that requests that the un-saved give this 501c nonprofit corporation money citing the bible as the source of the request. Once the individual makes a profession of faith, they are strongly encouraged to attend religious services elsewhere in the community, as this is a 501c non-profit who’s stated purpose is to seek and save the lost. Once ‘saved’ this church is not for you, is the saying. This ministry is akin to the old tent ministries where a traveling evangelist would set up a tent for a season, and preach the message of salvation to all those of the community in attendance. Only Steven Furtick is acting as a “stay in the community” evangelist, electronic media notwithstanding . The long term results/effects of this 501c religious not-for-profit corporation, is yet to be determined.
Christians are to be forewarned: “If You Know Jesus”, Steven Furtick says that his church is not for you.
____
Notes:
Video: Steven Furtick – What is the purpose of this church? Here the Pastor of Elevation Church, in Charlotte NC. expounds upon ‘why’ his church exists…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wILPzCyWYk&feature=youtube_gdata_player
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elevation_Church
The church description here does not include stating the intended purpose of this 501c religious non-profit ‘church’.
–-
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@ Sopwith:
Thanks for bringing this up, Sopwith. I saw this statement elsewhwere in my readings about Furtick and thought that this guy is acting like a traveling Evangelist but staying local, AND treating his organization like a 501c (church). I don’t think it’s a church in the NT sense at all. It doesn’t fit the NT instructions of what a church should be/do as they gather. I wonder how they administer communion with so many unbelievers?
I have to say that I often feel like my church is preaching to the unbeliever as well. It’s not because of glitz and money appeals and ‘personalities’, but because the teaching often centers on sin and depravity and what we need to watch out for, instead of our new life in/with Christ and what that means.
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@ Bridget
Often with these type of “churches” that you describe, the broken condition of Man’s imagination, becomes a manipulation tool. (“for the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth” ~ Genesis 8:21; “All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations—”~ Isaiah 65:2 NIV. The new life in Christ, and shedding light on what that really means for the Christian’s walk with God is often overlooked because it doesn’t sell. Religious freedom in Christ is a scary proposition in some religious circles.
Some of the churches you describe still push the “we have to interpret the bible for you” mantra. And people fall for it any given Sunday. William Tyndale placed the bible in the hands of his fellow countrymen so that they could read for themselves God’s word, trusting God’s Spirit to provide; as God’s word never gives a voided return. These pastors of whom you speak, are apparently banking on averaging – that the ‘average’ church attender doesn’t read God’s word for themselves, much less understand the fruitful abundance of His precious promises.
—
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Hmm, is it possible that Steven isn’t really “Steven” Furtick’s real first name? Could it actually be Larry (as in Larry Stevens Furtick)? Not sure if that’s true, but have reason to believe it.
So why wouldn’t he use his real name? Maybe he thinks “Pastor Larry” isn’t as cool and won’t make him as much money. Or maybe it’s easier to hide assets when the media and others are looking under a different name than your real name.
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Oh, it is true:
http://hollyfurtick.typepad.com/the_preachers_wife/2011/02/love-post-1.html
But at least he isn’t trying to keep it a secret…or his wife let the cat out of the bag.
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BTW, that blog post is hilarious, especially the part about him going without food for several days.