Welcome to a Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg
Christopher Columbus Monument – Denver, Colorado
Here Is Our Order of Worship
If you are new to EChurch, please click on this link for an explanation
Prayers for All Sorts and Conditions of Men Book of Common Prayer link
O God, the creator and preserver of all mankind,
we humbly beseech you for all sorts and conditions of men;
that you would be pleased to make your ways known unto them,
your saving health unto all nations.
More especially we pray for your holy Church universal;
that it may be so guided and governed by your good Spirit,
that all who profess and call themselves Christians may be led into the way of truth,
and hold the faith in unity of spirit, in the bond of peace, and in righteousness of life.
Finally, we commend to your fatherly goodness all those who are in any ways afflicted or distressed,
in mind, body, or estate; [especially those for whom our prayers are desired];
that it may please you to comfort and relieve them according to their several necessities,
giving them patience under their sufferings, and a happy issue out of all their afflictions.
And this we beg for Jesus Christ’s sake.
Amen.
Prayer on the Beatitudes Link
Lord Jesus, You said, "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
Keep us from being preoccupied with money and worldly goods, and with trying to increase them at the expense of justice.
Lord Jesus, You said, "Blessed are the gentle, for they shall inherit the earth."
Help us not to be ruthless with one another, and to eliminate the discord and violence that exists in the world around us.
Lord Jesus, You said, "Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted."
Let us not be impatient under our own burdens and unconcerned about the burdens of others.
Lord Jesus, You said, "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for justice, for they shall be filled."
Make us thirst for you, the fountain of all holiness, and actively spread your influence in our private lives and in society.
Lord Jesus, You said, "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy."
Grant that we may be quick to forgive and slow to condemn.
Lord Jesus, You said, "Blessed are the clean of heart, for they shall see God."
Free us from our senses and our evil desires, and fix our eyes on you.
Lord Jesus, You said, "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called children of God."
Aid us to make peace in our families, in our country, and in the world.
Lord Jesus, You said, "Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of justice, for the kingdom of heaven in theirs."
Make us willing to suffer for the sake of right rather than to practice injustice;
and do not let us discriminate against our neighbors and oppress and persecute them.
In Jesus name
Amen
Scripture Reading: Hebrews 13:18 (Bible Gateway)
Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a good conscience, desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things.
Prayer for the Poor and Neglected from The book of Common Prayer link
Almighty and most merciful God,
we remember before you all poor and neglected persons whom it would be easy for us to forget:
the homeless and the destitute,
the old and the sick,
and all who have none to care for them.
Help us to heal those who are broken in body or spirit,
and to turn their sorrow into joy.
Grant this, Father, for the love of your Son,
who for our sake became poor, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.
Benediction: Jude 1:24-25
To him who is able to keep you from stumbling
And to present you before his glorious presence without fault
And with great joy to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority,
Through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore!
Amen.
Wade, that was a wonderful talk. 🙂
I can confirm that your message is always Christ-centered.
You said:
Pray that my ministry will be as powerful as my preaching. I don’t always preach a powerful message…I know.
Just as beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, a powerful message is such depending on the ears of the hearer.
I read not long ago on your blog you said something like “I can spend 18 hrs. on a blog post and only 2 comments are posted. I can put one together in 20 min. and it will generate 82 comments.” (my paraphrase)
Same way with a sermon. You may never know how a “non-powerful” sermon will affect just one individual who needed to hear what you said.
Anyway, it’s always very refreshing for me to hear words that reflect a servant’s heart rather than ones from a CEO-type pastor whose furthering an agenda.
Thank you!
Mary Ann
Thanks, Mary Ann!
Typically, I find that a message I preach is not powerful when I’m more focused on any praise (or lack of it) from the people than I am the truth from the text. Thankfully, for the most part, I’ve reached the place of not caring what others think when preaching. I want Truth to soak in me and saturate all of me before it is shared by me for its far better to have people try to pour out the flame of revival in my own heart than have the need for people to prop up what I do in ministry through praise.
Our VIMESO site (where the video of the Sunday teaching time is kept) has a STAT counter where we can see how many people watch the teaching video each week, including the STATS for E-Church at Wartburg. Fascinating to me that the three messages challenging the modern concept of pastoral authority (i.e. “Only Servants and No Masters,” “Our Sin of Impersonating the High Priest” and “The Joy and Profit of Leading and Following God’s Way”) have on average well over 200 downloads to watch. However, the message on “How to Pray for Your Pastor” has only 4 downloads – total. A reduction of 98%. It might be the reason there’s problems with excessive pastoral authority is a lack of interest in praying for one’s pastor. 🙂 Maybe?
Maybe. Or maybe the “office” of pastor as we have twisted it is not biblical and therefore can never function properly. I’m not sure yet, I’m just suggesting. I wound liken my excommunication (disfellowship, they called it) to my husband leaving. Hours of prayer and many tears preceded and followed. You make a valid point. I just offer a counterpoint. BTW, why do you keep track of how many viewers you have? Honestly, is it really a measure of how “good” a preacher you are? Does your pride get fed at all by knowing those stats? I’m not dissing you Wade, as I’ve gleaned some pearls from your sermons. Just keeping it real. @ Wade Burleson:
Also, consider that by the time your viewers have found you on TWW, they have already been battered. At this point we know how to pray for those who have hurt us when we trusted them: for conviction of sin, judgment and righteousness. And of course, that they be blessed in every other way. .. this last point is where the rubber meets the road in our walk. I think you know that.
Janet Varin wrote:
Perhaps it’s more of a measuring device for determining the effectiveness of one’s ministry in the area of preaching. Or the interest in a particular topic that meets the needs of the congregation. Or whether or not the maintenance and/or use of a website justifies the cost.
Could be many reasons, but pride?? Really? I can’t speak for Wade, but would it be so wrong to be happy that your life’s work is being appreciated and effective? If not, one might be tempted to move on wouldn’t they? Or question whether or not they were meeting needs (as any good shepherd would hope).
@ Victorious:
Respectfully, you make some legitimate points, Victorious. But may I gently point something out? There is no lack of supporters to jump in and defend the shepherd whenever he is accused of anything approaching criticism. Good grief! I presented a legitimate concern. .. and I used my real name!
Janet, Wade doesn’t need me to defend him. You offered a speculative criticism; I offered a speculative possibility in response. It was based on web site stats and having been a web site designer at one time, I knew some of the reasons one might check the stats.
From Dee: At the request of Wade, I am placing this comment on the blog. His willingness to put up with this shows the reason why TWW cares deeply for him.
The Reformed get-out-of-jail-free card. The pastor is merely a sinner saved by grace. If you only prayed for him more, none of this would have happened. You’re lack of prayer is probably why God did not give him the grace to perceive. If you just showed a little more interest, maybe the pastor wouldn’t have to force you into right behavior. If you just got with the program, and admitted that all your pastor’s sins in the area of authority are due to your lack of compliance, well…you wouldnt be so miserable, now would you?
And if the wife had gotten her husband’s dinner on time, maybe she could have avoided that crack across her mouth. Just look what she made him do.
Wade, you are speaking to adults. We have heard all this before.
Janet,
You make some excellent points.
I’m just observing that there is a role for BOTH calling out abuse of authority AND praying for one’s pastor.
Thanks!
Wade
“Does your pride get fed at all by knowing those stats? I’m not dissing you Wade, as I’ve gleaned some pearls from your sermons. Just keeping it real.”
Valid question.
I don’t think so. If I were concerned with how many people watch (or how many people liked what they heard) I would not try to be faithful to the text. I would simply ask, “What do people want to hear?” It’s been my experience that it is what I don’t want to hear that is precisely what I need to hear. So, I normally do not look at stats not to see whether people are watching for my ego, but to see if people are watching for their good.
Bottom line, there is a need for accountability of our spiritual leaders in practice (a main concern of mine) as well as support of our spiritual leaders in prayer (a main concern of Hebrews 13).
Argo,
“Pray for us: for we are certain of a good conscience, but we are desiring in all things to live in integrity.” (Hebrews 13:18).
I apologize for not making my point clearer. The above is the prayer that is needed for the ones who spiritually lead us. If it is important enough of a request for the author of Hebrews, then it is important enough of a practice for me. No offense intended.
Argo
Wade is against hierarchy and authority in the priesthood. He has stood up agasint domestic violence in the home. He has a high view of women in the church. In fact, I know some stories about him that I cannot share. Suffice to say he has never imposed his will on his congregation and has been willing to give up much not to do so. What you have said is so wrong. I am not going to approve your comment unless you edit it.Then, and only then, I might consider it. This is going too far,
I know you don’t like him and us. You have made that saliently clear both here and on your blog. Go ahead and place your unedited comment on your blog and try to pretend that Wade in any way, shape or form would advocate a woman is to blame for her own domestic abuse. *Banging head against a wall*
Comment not approved by meanspirited and deceived editor.
@ Wade Burleson:
Hi Wade,
I want to say thanks for your allowing the messages to be heard both live and for your archived messages. I listened to this one here live last week, the 8:30 service. My wife and I have come to listen to different ministries and we pray for them. I think where you might see the disconnect in the downloads or the watching of the services is while we are blessed by the other sermons and can relate to them more the direct link to a pastor no longer exists for many and so we end up praying for the ministries.
We had e church here at my house with another friend who has been struggling greatly because of some past experiences and so we invited her to join us. We listened to one of your other messages though because it help explain some of the struggles she is having. What a blessing it was!
@ Wade Burleson:
Fair enough. I resolve to include you on my prayer list and I will listen to yesterday’s message today. And I truly have gleaned some pearls.
Kevin,
Amen.
And Amen.
Neat story of assistance to your friend. That is true Christianity
Janet,
Back at you in terms of respect for your comments. I think I communicated poorly my concern about the limited downloads.
I am unconcerned whether people listen to my messages, nor am I necessarily asking people at E-Church to pray for me (though I did ask the folks at Emmanuel to pray for me).
What I am trying to communicate is that there seems to me to be a balance between “calling out” and “holding accountable” a spiritual leader, and a sincere desire to pray for a spiritual leader that his life will be full of integrity and that he lives in a manner consistent with his calling. I think whomever has been an encouragement to you spiritually should be prayed for in the same manner the author of Hebrews requested he be prayed for by the Hebrew people.
Again, thanks for your comment.
Dee,
You and Wanda are true friends to Rachelle and me and respected by us both. I would ask that you place Argo’s comment on your blog (unedited). I realize you have a desire to protect me, but truth be known, the greatest protection is to allow Argo to speak fully and freely his perceptions of my life. I know you are trying to protect me and my reputation, but I learned a long time ago to follow King David’s advice to his servant Abishai. When Abishai asked the king if he could go cut off Shemei’s head for publicly lying about the king. David said, “No. Leave him alone. God hath bidden him to speak” (II Samuel 16:11).
Wade
It is a lie and deeply upset me. OK-with tears I put it on.
Thanks, Dee. Communication is a two-way street – What the speaker (or writer) communicated, and what the hearer (or reader) heard. Sometimes wires cross and people don’t seem to connect in communication.
I hear Argo. He believes I said, “Pastors are excessive in their authoritative abuse because people don’t pray for them.” I admit that is a possible interpretation of what I wrote. It’s not what I intended, but it’s what Argo read. Therefore, Argo says, “Just like if a woman got the dinner on the table on time she could have avoided the smack across the mouth.”
If I communicated to Argo what I actually intended, he would hear “Concern for the character and conduct of those who spiritually lead you to the point of praying for them is AS IMPORTANT as holding accountable spiritually leaders who exert excessive ‘pastoral’ authority.” The concern of many on this website (including me) is that spiritually leaders be shown they have no ‘authority’ over anyone, but I’m also asking the question ‘Is it as major of a concern of ours that we pray for the conduct and character of those who lead us?” I obviously didn’t communicate well.
Wade
Or some don’t want to hear well.
Dee,
I know that Wade is no wimp. He takes my criticism graciously. He has defended his ideas on my blog openly. We disagree, and I am vehement in my opposition to his ideology. However, do not take that to mean I do not respect the man. I do. He is an honorable man. I don’t hate him or you. I think the roots of your beliefs are untenable and can only lead to authoritarianism in the end. I defend my points rationally and strongly. I’m sorry that upsets you. But you must understand that sensibilities are not the great harbinger of peace. Truth is.
To suggests my love is cold would be wrong. I have no desire to see anyone be anything but affirmed as a child whom God loves because they are human. Because they are who they are.
With respect to Wade’s comment: I thought it very telling that he would draw that particular conclusion from the stats he quoted. Particularly given the readership of this blog. I submit his thoughts are a derivative of his reformed doctrine, and I wanted to call him on it. I am not suggesting Wade advocates domestic violence. Of course not!! If that is what it sounded like then the fault is mine. I am sorry to you and Wade. I was trying to get Wade to think about his comment in light of what I consider to be a shocking parallel. That’s why I “went there”.
Argo,
Pastor Burleson has shown many times over his solidarity with the rights and equality of women in the Church and in the workplace. He has practiced human goodness and has helped build a better world. Why then should I care what his politics and theological beliefs are?
Argo,
Thanks for your previous comment. A quick question:
You write, ” I thought it very telling that he would draw that particular conclusion from the stats he quoted. Particularly given the readership of this blog.
I’m just curious if “that particular conclusion” to you is a reference to what YOU believe I said (i.e. “Pastors are excessive in their authoritative abuse because people don’t pray for them”) or is “that particular conclusion” a reference to what I INTENDED to say (i.e. “Concern for the character and conduct of those who spiritually lead you to the point of praying for them is AS IMPORTANT as holding accountable spiritually leaders who exert excessive ‘pastoral’ authority”)?
The only reason I ask is to see if you are now hearing what I intended. Thanks!
Muff Potter,
I adamantly disagree with Argo’s position that “I think the roots of (his) beliefs are untenable and can only lead to authoritarianism in the end.”
I agree that my beliefs give ALL AUTHORITY, sovereign, kingly, eternal authority to Christ Jesus, but wholeheartedly disagree that my beliefs necessarily lead to authoritarianism in the human heart.
I think my wife, my congregation, and those who know me would tell you they know what I believe about God’s sovereignty (if you don’t, next Sunday’s message will spell it out), but they would also affirm my life is not one of excessive authority.
I propose my very life contradicts Argo’s very dogmatic philosophy. By the way, I can show him much many Arminians, skeptics, atheists and others (people who believe diametrically opposite of me) who are authoritarian to the core.
One’s view of God’s sovereignty does not make one an abusive authoritarian.
Argo and I simply respectfully disagree on that one!
Hmmm…just my thoughts, for what they’re worth.
When I saw the sermon title, my mind ‘went there’ immediately, I.e., all the times I have had that verse used to tell me that abuse is my fault (whether pastor, parent…) because I didn’t pray hard enough, long enough, with enough faith. So I was not at all interested.
That does not mean I specifically think Wade is or would do that. It just is one of many trigger verses. I have worked hard to try and get the abusers voices out of the bible. But after almost seven years, I think that may be a lost cause.
By my point is, I can see how even the title can cause that thought process. Apologies to Wade as I haven’t listened and probably won’t.
Wade Burleson wrote:
Which was the intent and purpose of my comment to begin with.
Jeannette,
No offense taken!
I’m surprised the sermon title caused such a response (“abuse is my fault because I didn’t pray hard enough, long enough, with enough faith”), but it helps me understand better the lack of interest!
Thanks.
@ Wade Burleson:
Hi Wade,
Yes. I understand that that is what you meant. I apologize, but I don’t necessarily agree that there is a significant difference when considering practical application of the interpretations to people in the church. I could be wrong, but it seems that you are drawing a moral equivalency between the two (holding Pastors accountable and praying for them). This creates a direct cause and effect relationship between the ideas: prayer = less abuse; no prayer = more abuse. What this does is imply that the laity is somehow culpable for an abusive pastor. Since there is really no way to objectively measure a causal relationship between prayer for a pastor and his level of “lording”, I submit that their can be only one intention of making a claim such as you did: to make the victim (or group of people) responsible (at least partially) for the abuse (why I used the “wife” example). I cannot accept that this is a tenable position in any sense.
Nevertheless, I believe that your statement would, wrt the Pastor, make sense in light of the Reformed doctrine of God’s “sovereignty”. If you,a layperson, are “in pain”, it is God’s will, ultimately, and you should consider this as well as your own level of “sin” in the matter before, and/or to the same degree you seek “justice”, especially given that you are totally depraved and “deserve” hell. This is exactly the kind of thinking I was exposed to in SGM. It is nothing new to me.
I’m not suggesting you consciously make this connection, but I am concerned you do not take your ideas to their logical conclusions. I am of the opinion that this makes you unable to make distinctions between abuse caused by the person and abuse caused by the doctrine.
In your defense, Wade, I engage you because you will engage. Most Pastors won’t deign to even defend their positions. I speak to you in love, not in hate. The reason I say this is…well, I cannot prove this, of course, but I don’t think God is well pleased with your comparison of me to Shemei. I proclaim Christ my Lord and my God.
Argo,
Thanks, my friend. A couple of clarifications. I did not intend to imply you and Shemei are similar in character. I simply wished to articulate how I respond to criticism of me, even when the criticism is false (like Shemei’s allegations of David). I totally accept you as a brother in Christ (i.e. proclaiming Jesus Christ as your Lord and God).
Second, if I believed someone was saying a pastor’s excessive authoritative control was due to a ‘lack of prayer for him,’ I would probably respond the same way you responded. I appreciate the acknowledgement from you that I intended to say something different.
Argo, I’m not sure we are still connecting, but I do think we are closer. I have a very high view of grace and God’s ability to heal the most broken and shaken heart. I try to encourage people to not stay in their brokenness, but move forward in strength. Dee has accurately pointed out that I have been at the forefront (for years) on confronting abuse by pastors who have a warped view of their alleged “authority.” There are occasions when I think a challenge needs to be issued toward those who have been hurt by pastors to not throw all spiritual leaders into the same bad apple barrel, but to take the exhortation of Hebrews 13 seriously and “pray for us.”
I enjoy the dialogue.
@ Wade Burleson:
Wade,
Your points are well said and accepted. I understand what you are saying, and believe me I do not lump you in with the same “bunch”. We have serious doctrinal differences, but I don’t think we disagree in our respective love for our fellow man. That is something worth pointing out. And I agree that it is wise to pray for Pastors. I only disputed that in the context of this discussion. But I do not dispute it as a matter of general wisdom and a manifestation of love.
Wade,
Thanks for engaging our readers in a gracious dialogue. I thoroughly enjoyed your message!
Blessings to you and Rachelle!
Jeannette Altes wrote:
My mind “went there” to the sort of teaching we often see, like his from Jared Wilson last week. http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/
The subject is “Why you should criticize your pastor”– the answer being ONLY when they don’t preach the gospel or are disqualified through sins or “unhealthy habits”. Then in conclusion, he exhorts us to “… Pray for your pastor. He needs it.” Followed by, NOT Heb. 13:18 exhorting us to pray, but Heb. 13:17 exhorting us to *obey”.
Thanks, Deb!
Dave,
Very sad. I have tried to show how patheos (obey) in Hebrews 13:17 is the word in Greek which means “persuasion” and it is in the middle voice which should be interpreted, “Allow yourself to be persuaded” by your spiritual leaders. In other words, guard against a heart closed off toward your spiritual leader. I think this is very consistent with the exhortation to “pray for us.” In my own experience, I don’t (can’t) pray for someone who is closed off in my heart. Thanks for the comment.
Wade, I find myself in a bit of a dilema with this. Maybe we define things different. I don’t believe my heart is exactly open to any ‘pastor’ right now. Yet, I do pray for my former paastor. However, who decides who is a spiritual leader in my life? This is tricky because in the past, that decision has been made by…the ‘spiritual leader.’ I ‘allowed myself to be persuaded’ by my former pastor and it did not go well for me.
Again, I do not believe that you are that type of leader, but this is the same argument that abusive leaders make…accompanied by the implicit threat of dire spiritual consequences if you don’t comply. For some of us, this type of teaching may always trigger a negative reaction. I hope there will come a time when it does not, but that time has not yet arrived.
Thanks for your openness to hear.
Wade Burleson wrote:
I know this is off topic, but do you have any thoughts on David, at the end of his life, changing his mind about sparing Shimei? In 1 Kings 2:9 he tells Solomon, “But now, do not consider him innocent. You are a man of wisdom; you will know what to do to him. Bring his grey head down to the grave in blood.”
Hi Wade,
I wanted to thank you for taking the time and effort to respond to people in this forum. It is commendable of you. My former pastor, if he responded at all to my emails, would respond with one or two sentences at most, and I was a CLG leader! Sure he was busy, but I would guess you are too. Your care and concern for those not even members of your church impresses me.
May God continue to bless you,
Todd
RubyTuesday,
“Do you have any thoughts on David, at the end of his life, changing his mind about sparing Shimei? In 1 Kings 2:9 he tells Solomon, “But now, do not consider him innocent. You are a man of wisdom; you will know what to do to him. Bring his grey head down to the grave in blood.”
I do. I won’t go into all the nuances, but I believe King David is an Old Covenant type of the King of Kings. After Jesus established His eternal kingdom at the first advent (“Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand,” and then, “The time is at hand… the kingdom of God has come upon you”) He has given a period of time when the Shemei’s of this world do not experience judgment. However, just as King David came to the place of a final, eternal act of judgment on Shemei (“Bring his grey head down to the grave in blood”), so too Jesus will judge the unrepentant, unregenerated, unredeemed Shemei’s of this world on their respective days of judgment. In other words, just because Shemei escaped the King’s judgment while in the midst of his sin, does not mean he will escape the King’s judgment at the end of his life.
Hope that helps RubyTuesday.
TW,
Thank you! I have many irons in the fire. I rise at 5:00 and go to bed at around 11:00. I am not always able to respond in as detailed as a fashion as I would like, but I believe anyone who takes the time to write to me a question should receive a respectful and thorough answer. Again, sometimes I fail (particularly when I’m out of town), but I do my best.
@ Wade Burleson:
Thank you so much for your thought-provoking reply Wade!
@ Wade Burleson:
I agree with TW’s comment. Thanks Wade for making the dialogue on the EChurch posts a priority. We appreciate you!
Ooops. I was reading the thread on my phone and most likely hit reply by mistake.
anon 1
Since it as a mistake, I removed it. Some people will recopy an entire comment and repost it in agreement, I gueww. I always wish that they would say something in the comment to let me know that it was not a mistake. Thanks!
My wife and I are so appreciative of E-Church; from the worship (especially the liturgical prayers) to the sermons; having just the book “The Pastor” by Eugene Peterson, I think Wade has found his “sermon” (meant as the highest compliment). The series from Hebrews has been water for our very dry souls, having just endured a 2.5 year wilderness in which the communication from both local leadership and extralocal leadership for our association of churches has been primarily silence (used as a weapon), or when words have been spoken, characterized by snark, sarcasm and anger.
I am thankful for Wade’s expression of biblical truth regarding authority in the church (I expressed a similar view while an active elder in our church and was told by one of the extralocal leaders that my views were dangerous). The lack of balanced teaching regarding biblical authority, and the lack of humility of many in leadership has led me to observe that there are many monsters in leadership–it is the responsibility of individual Christians to discern who those monsters are and guard the weaker among us.
I have sent links to the E-Church sermons to those I have sensed have suffered at the hands of abusive leadership; 40 years of experience in the Kingdom and I find bad experiences recycled, sadly. But good teaching–thank you Wade, Dee and Deb, beyond words.
Rick
Meant to say I just finished reading “The Pastor”.
dee wrote:
Thanks, Dee. Now that I am on a real computer I can make a comment instead of hitting the screen and copying a whole comment!
I can understand where some saw the title and got put off. I have not watched the sermon so forgive me for having an opinion on preaching this verse as it relates more to preaching on this verse than Wades sermon.
And to makes sure no one misunderstands, I am not saying don’t pray for your pastor. I don’t think it is my place to tell anyone who they should or should not pray for at all.
The problem with preaching this verse is historical context. No where does it meantion “pastor”. It mentions “leader” and we make that leap. Early on in Hebrews we are given names of “those who have gone before us” in Faith. But “leader” needs to be researched in this context.
Since we know that this letter was written because persecution was starting. They were losing their ability to make a living and were afraid to meet, etc. That is why taking these exortations in Hebrews in the 1st Century and mapping them as instructions in the 21st Century can miss the mark. Many that we think of as leaders today are pastors who live in decent homes and drive decent cars and can make their mortgage payment. They are not facing what the leaders referred to in Hebrews were facing. And I think the author is anonymous for a reason. We also see that Timothy being “released” is mentioned which means there were punishments going on they were all well aware of how tenuous the sitution was. Some were leaving the faith and reverting back to old lifestyles. (the reason becomes obvious if you read the historical context)
Leader in that context could mean those who would be fed to the lions first or imprisoned or lose their ability to make a living for their family.
When you read about the historical context of that time, the meaning most certainly changes for us.
Jeannette Altes
You ask a great question…
“However, who decides who is a **spiritual leader** in my life?
This is tricky because in the past, that decision has been made by…the ‘spiritual leader.’
I ‘allowed myself to be persuaded’ by my former pastor and it did not go well for me.”
————–
NOPE – It did NOT go well for me either…
Being persuaded by, and submitting to “pastors” who said they were my “Spiritual Leaders.”
But – the “Spiritual Abuse” had a benefit – Caused me to go to Jesus…
And read the Bible for myself. And get it from Jesus for my self. NO middle man…
John 6:45 KJV
It is written in the prophets, And *they shall be ALL taught of God.*
John 14:26 KJV
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost,
whom the Father will send in my name, *he shall teach you all things*…
1 John 2:26-27 KJV
These things have I written unto you concerning *them that seduce you.*
But *the anointing* which ye have received of him abideth in you,
and **ye need not that any man teach you:**
Deuteronomy 4:36 KJV
Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
that *He might instruct thee:*
And – Surprise, Surprise…
In the Bible – I could NOT find one of His Disciples who called them self – “Pastor/Shepherd.”
BUT – I did find Jesus calling Himself – “the “ONE” Shepherd.
In the Bible – I could NOT find one of His Disciples who called them self – ““Spiritual Leader.”
BUT – I did find Jesus calling Himself – “the “ONE” Leader.
And – I did find Jesus teaching His Disciples NOT to be called – “Leader.” – Mat 23:10 NASB.
And NONE did. – In the Bible – ALL His Disciples called themselves – “Servants.”
Hmmm? What did His Disciiples know then? – That “pastor/leaders” miss today?
Today – Are they taking the name of the Lord thy God? – In Vain? Exodus 20:7…
So – I’m in agreement when you say…
“I don’t believe my heart is exactly open to any ‘pastor’ right now.”
Seems, In the Bible, Jesus is the only “ONE” with the “Title” – Shepherd/Leader/Reverend
Today, when I read the scriptures, I see Jesus wanting to be…
My “ONE” Shepherd – My “ONE” Teacher – My “ONE” Leader.
If someone calls themself – Leader? Allows others to call them — Leader?
Are they one of His Disciples?
Anon1
I am still not such what I meant by “I Gueww” which I think may be I guess.Thank you for your thoughtful comment.
Here’s another take on Heb 13:17-18…
Heb 13:17 KJV
“Obey” them that “have the rule over” you,
In Heb 13:17, “have the rule over” or “Leader” is Strongs #2233 hegeomai.
In the KJV it is translated 5 different ways.
KJV – count 10, think 4, esteem 3, have rule over 3, be governor 2,
This Greek word “hegeomai” is 28 times in the NT.
Only 3 times as, “have the rule over” all in Heb 13.
Moderne translations often use “leader” here.
Hegeomai does mean, to lead, it also means “to go before.” “To esteem.”
A brethren who goes before? – Who you esteem?
Or – I’m the leader/boss? Who you “Will” Obey? – Out of Fear?
Seems the qualification in Heb 13, to who we “to be persuaded by” and “Submit” to are…
Those – “who have spoken unto you the word of God.” Heb 13:7
And – those that – “watch for your souls.” Heb 13:17.
NOT a “Title/Position” pastor/overseer/elder – there are NO “Titles” in Heb 13.
BUT, someone who has given you God’s Word – And watches for your soul. 🙂
In my experience – When I dis-agreed with those who said they were “pastors” my “spiritual leaders”
Watching for my soul was NO longer important to them… 😉
This “hegeomai” “Leader” “Who I esteem” is being attentive to me.
Speaking the word of God and watching for my soul.
Not demanding that I “Obey and Submit” to them.
That part, IMO, is voluntary, because you know the person cares for you.
You might be persuaded by an opinion of someone who cares…
And is watching for your soul…
Here’s Heb 13:17 in the “NKJAV.”
That’s the “New King James Amos Version.” 🙂
Heb 13:17
Be persuaded by, trust, and obey, those you have confidence in
those you esteem as they guide you and think to submit yourselves:
for they watch, pray and are paying attention to your soul…
@ dee:
Oh my. Did you see all the typos and horrid grammatical structure in my comment? I can only plead that I was in a hurry!
Here’s a little of what I find for “Obey” in Heb 13:17-18.
Heb 13:17
“Obey” them that “have the rule over” you,
and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls….
Pray for us: for we *TRUST* we have a good conscience,
in all things willing to live honestly.
And – I NO longer believe “Pray for us” is referring to – Pray for your pastor…
Now – If you want to pray for your pastor – Or, God tells you to pray – Please obey God…
Because, and I could be wrong, we do NOT know who wrote Hebrews.
And human pastors/shepherds are NOT mentioned in the whole book of Hebrews.
Only Jesus, as **Great Shepherd,** is mentioned in Hebrews – I like Jesus – A Lot… 😉
Heb 13:20
Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus,
that **great shepherd** of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
The Greek word for “Obey” in Heb 13:17 – It is Strongs #3982 – peitho
And peitho is the root word for – Faith – Strongs #4102 – pistis.
This Greek word – peito – #3982 is translated in the KJV as
KJV – persuade 22, trust 8, obey 7, have confidence 6, believe 3,
Hmmm? Persuade, trust, have confidence, believe?
Maybe this word “Obey” then, is different from how we understand “Obey” today. Yes?
The very next verse, Heb 13:18, uses #3982 peitho also.
Only this time it is NOT “obey.” The word is TRUST.
Heb 13:18
Pray for us: for we *TRUST* we have a good conscience,
in all things willing to live honestly.
Paul uses #3982 peitho, here in, Gal 5:10.
I have *CONFIDENCE* in you through the Lord.
Maybe we need to go to God and ask Him what
He really means here in Heb 13:17 for “Obey.” 😉
And – who these so-called “Spiritual Leaders” really are?
Today I NO longer believe this “Obey” means – I’m the boss, do as I say.
The way “Pastors who Abuse” use the word “Obey.”
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Anon 1 and A. Amos Love,
I agree with both of your sentiments. The request is for prayers for their “leaders”(i.e. ‘those who have taught them, guided them, encouraged, them, etc…).
Poor choice of the word “Pastor” in the title – Leader would have been better.
Having said that, I think every pastor ought to be a leader of others, so pastors are included, but more than pastors ought to be prayed for – it should by anyone who leads you, pastors you, guides, you, etc… for “pastor” is a verb, not a noun.
🙂
Rick,
Your comment was a blessing to me! Thank you for taking the time to write and let us know how E-church has blessed you and your family.
In my post from 10:56AM yesterday, I made a statement I would like to clarify; I said that there are many monsters in leadership–and I regret the use of the word many. There are monsters among us–how many, I don’t have the context to declare, except from my own experience–still too many.
I don’t think most set out to be monstrous–but the danger of an authoritarian bent in teaching is that it can appeal to a base nature in some and give them justification and cover for bad behavior in our midst. I mourn for the monsters among us in the church that are re-inforced by the praise of man and cannot see the damage they do.
Blessings to you all,
Wade
I’ve appreciated your stance on “Spiritual Abuse,” “Women in Ministry,” “Pastoral Authority.” And Emmanuel Enid sounds like a fairly safe place to fellowship.
I agree when you write @ Mon Oct 14, 2013 at 08:26 AM…
“Fascinating to me that the three messages challenging **the modern concept** of
**pastoral authority** (i.e. “Only Servants and No Masters…”
Yes – ““Only Servants” – But – You mention “Spiritual Leaders” – or similar – errrr – often…
I count quickly 10 times in your comments on this thread. – You say it so often most folks will think this is a “Biblical” term. – An accurate term. – When “Spiritual Leader” is NOT mentioned once in the scriptures.
Isn’t having both – “Only Servants” and “Spiritual Leaders” challenging to understand?
Isn’t believers being “Only Servants” diametrically opposed to believers being “Spiritual Leaders?”
And you write in your response @ Wed Oct 16, 2013 at 07:03 PM…
“Poor choice of the word “Pastor” in the title – Leader would have been better.”
Now, I believe – “pastor” – is always a poor choice of words. Whether as a – Verb or Noun…
I’ll try to explain in the next comment.
But – I do NOT believe “Leader” “would have been better.”
Leader – Dictionary – “The person who leads or commands a group,”
Command – Dictionary – “give an authoritative order”
And, His Disciples are NOT to “Exercise Authority” like the Gentiles. Mark 10:42.
BUT – By LOVE “Serve” one another. Gal 5:13 – And “Serve” Jesus. John 12:26.
Jesus, As Man – humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
and took on the form of a **Servant.** Php 2:7-8.
When someone calls them self “Spiritual Leader” – Do they now have a Reputation? Oy Vey!!!
How do you, Wade, reconcile calling yourself, or anyone, – Leader – or – Spiritual Leader?
When NOT one of His Disciples called them self – Leader – or – Spiritual Leader?
When Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called – Leader? And none did?
When Jesus taught His Disciples there is “ONE” leader? – Jesus?
Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible.
Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant.”
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
If someone calls themself – Leader? Allows others to call them — Leader?
Are they one of His Disciples?
Why isn’t what Jesus said – Important?
@ Wade Burleson:
I understand where you are coming from but have a fundatmental disagreement. I beieve adult believers are to be “led” by the Holy Spirit. We can encourage one another, learn from one another, persuade one another, etc, etc.
“Leader” in the context of Hebrews– I believe— is a whole different animal than our Western concept of leader.
Wade
About this word “pastor” – You write @ Wed Oct 16, 2013 at 07:03 PM…
1 – “Poor choice of the word “Pastor” in the title – Leader would have been better.”
2 – “ Having said that, I think every pastor ought to be a leader of others…”
… Those two statements make my brain hurt – Where does it say – “pastor ought to be a leader?”
3 – “for “pastor” is a verb, not a noun.”
And I responded @ Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 10:53 AM…
Now, I believe – “pastor” – is always a poor choice of words. Whether as a – Verb or Noun…
Mainly because…
NOT one of His Disciples called them self, or had the “Title” – “pastor.” – Or shepherd.
And NOT one of His Disciples called what they did as – pastoring – Or shepherding.
Seems the word “pastor ” is found “one” time in the NT – Eph 4:11, plural – pastors…
It is the Greek – poimen – meaning “shepherd.” Poimen is 18 times in the NT…
The only one with the “Title” Shepherd – Called Shepherd – Or called them self Shepherd – Is…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Mr 14:27 …for it is written, I will smite *the shepherd,* (Jesus) and the sheep shall be scattered.
John 10:11 I am “the good shepherd:”“the good shepherd” giveth his life for the sheep.
John 10:14 I am “the good shepherd,” and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
John 10:16 …they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and “one shepherd.”
Heb 13:20 …our Lord Jesus, that “great shepherd” of the sheep…
1 Pet 2:25 …are now returned unto *the Shepherd* and Bishop of your souls.
1 Pet 5:4* And when *the chief Shepherd* shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory…
NO – I can NOT find one Mere fallible Human, in the Bible, referred to as pastor,- or shepherd.
Houston – “WE” have a problem – Pastors, Pastors, everywhere, EXCEPT in the Bible. 😉
What the heck is going on here?
If you really believe “pastor” is NOT a Noun – but a verb…
Why do you use “pastor?” As a Noun? A “Title?” On your web-sites?
When I click on your “View my complete profile ” at the top of your blog
I see on the “about page” this…
Occupation – “Lead Pastor” of Emmanuel Enid
And when I click on your personal site this “about” page you have …
http://www.wadeburleson.com/about.html
In 1992 Wade was called to be the “Lead Pastor” of Emmanuel Enid.
http://wadeburleson.com/about/
Wouldn’t “Lead Pastor” and “Senior Pastor,” Capitalized on both sites, be considered nouns?
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest… I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Wade
Are those who take the name – pastor/leader/reverend – Taking His Name? – In Vain?
Ex 20:7 KJV
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
I used to think – “Taking His Name in Vain” – meant saying – “G… D…. it,” or some such thing. Using God’s Name as a curse word. But – Today – I think it has to do with someone taking for themselves – the names and “Titles” of God — In Vain. And the Power – Profit – Prestige – Honor – Glory – Reputation that comes with His “Titles” today…
Because, one day, I do a little word study for – Name – and – Vain. 😉
I check out a few lexicons and the Dictionary.
Name – In Strongs – #8034 = shem –
1 – a definite and *conspicuous position… – (conspicuous=standing out, clearly visible)
2 – an *appellation… (a name or “Title”)
3 – by implication honor, authority, character.
Vain – In Strongs = #7723 = shav’ –
1 – in the sense of *desolating; – (desolate = bleak and dismal emptiness)
2 – evil (as *destructive), – (*destructive = causing great and irreparable harm)
3 – figuratively *idolatry – ( *idolatry = worship, admiration, reverence for something)
4 – idolatry (as deceptive,)
5 – *vain – ( *vain = having an excessively high opinion of one’s, abilities, or worth)
6 – *vanity – (*vanity = pride in or admiration of one’s own achievements)
Ex 20:7
Thou shalt not take the *name ( *position, title, honor, authority.)
of the LORD thy God in *vain; (* idolatry, pride, causeing harm,)
And in my experience…
“Titles” become “Idols” ………………. “Idols” of the heart. Ezek 14:1-11 KJV
“Pastors” become “Masters” ………. A No, No, Mat 23:10 KJV
Here are 3 – “Names” – “Titles” – of God, you can find in the Bible…
Shepherd – Leader – Reverend —- Aren’t these *names* “Titles” of the LORD thy God?
1 – Shepherd – God/Jesus is called – Shepherd
The Lord is my *shepherd.* Psalm 23:1.
…returned unto the *Shepherd* and Bishop of your souls. 1 Pet 2:25.
…they shall Hear MY Voice; and there shall be …and “ONE” *shepherd.* John 10:27
2 – Leader – God/Jesus is called – Leader
And do NOT be called *leaders;* for “ONE” is your *Leader,* that is, Christ. Mat 23:10 NASB.
God exalted him at his right hand as *Leader* and Savior…Acts 5:31 ESV
3 – Reverend – God/Jesus is called – Reverend
…holy and **reverend** is his *name. Psalm 111:9 KJV — (*name. = shem)
Hmmm? What about – Todays – Shepherds/Pastors – Leaders – Reverends – ?
Aren’t these *Names* “Titles” of the LORD thy God?
Are they taking “God’s Name” — And taking that Name – in Vain? Oy Vey!!! 🙁
Anonymous 1:
” I believe adult believers are to be “led” by the Holy Spirit. We can encourage one another, learn from one another, persuade one another, etc, etc”
I don’t disagree. I am using the language of Hebrews 13:
“Allow yourself to be persuaded by those who lead you and submit to Christ.” (Hebrews 13:17).
I am not going to repeat the message from that verse (you can watch the video from an old E-Church or go to http://www.vimeo.com/emmanuelenid and pull up the message) but just to say I agree the Spirit is our Teacher/Guide, but the language of Hebrews 13 indicates God places others in our lives to assist us to look to Christ and obey Him!
Blessings,
Wade
A Amos Love,
See my comment to anonymous. I basically agree with what you are saying, but do not believe one is taking God’s name in vain when the word “pastor” is used.
The word pastor seems to be the term most used in our culture to identify the person who has the gift of shepherding (nurturing, being an example, etc.) and teaching/instructing. While that person is not the only one gifted in those areas, because of the size of congregations today, that ministry of necessity must be a full-time ministry. While the term “shepherd” most closely identifies this ministry, the use of the word “pastor” is engrained in our culture. I find no problem using the term as terminology changes as do customs.
Hi Victorious
I’ve enjoyed your comments I have read in the past on different blogs.
You are someone who has researched the scriptures and have some strong opinions.
And you’re not opposed to mixing it up with folks you disagree with.
Was wondering – Why has “Coulure?” and “Customs?” Now trumped scripture for you?
You write about the word “pastor,” – “shepherd.”
“The word pastor seems to be the term most used in our culture
to identify the person who has the gift of shepherding.”
Seems you’re interested in what is “most used in our culture” – While…
I’m still stuck relying on the Bible. 🙂
In the Bible – Can you name one of His Disciples who had this GIFT? Of shepherding?
Because, “Pastors” “Spiritual Leaders” told me they had this GIFT of shepherding.
And – I believed them – Ouch!!! I doubt I will believe them again. 😉
And – I can NOT find one of His Disciples who had this so-called GIFT of shepherding.
But – Maybe I missed it. After all – I am “Rebellious” and I am a little biased. 😉
You finish with…
“I find no problem using the term as terminology changes as do customs.”
Seems most of Christian-dumb agrees with you – The more “Titles” the better. – Just look at ALL the “Titles” we now have in the – 501 (c) 3, non-profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporations, the IRS calls church.
“Titles” “Titles” Everywhere in Christian-dumb – BUT – A re NOT found in the Bible…
1 -Pastor. 1a Pastor/Leader/Reverend. 2 – Shepherd. 2a. – Under Shepherd. 3 – Senior Pastor. 4 – Lead Pastor. 5 – Teaching Pastor. 6 – Executive Pastor. 6 – Youth Pastor. 7 – Singles Pastor. 8 – Worship Pastor. 9 – Reverend. 10 – Holy Reverend. 11 – Most Holy Right Reverend. 12 – ArchDeacon. 13 – Canon. 14 – Prelate. 15 – Rector. 16 – Cardinal. 17 – Pope. 18 – Doctor. 19 – M.Div. 20 – Clergy. 21 – Laity. 22 – Chief Executive Apostle.
No kidding there really is a – Chief Executive Apostle – saw him with my own eyes…
21 – His Holiness, The Most Holy Reverend Father Amos – Yup – That’s me – That’s the “Title” My Polish Uncle Gave Me – He was a Polish Pastor of the first Church of the Pleasant Parables of the Presence of God. He believed Proper, Preperation, Precedes, Powerful, Performance – so we Prayed a lot. After being the Prevailing, Parsing, Pastor for a period and enjoying the Power – Profit – Prestige – He started his own Denomination and made me, his wonderful nephew, second in command, and gave me this Powerful , Profitable, Prestigious “Title” – NOT in the Bible …
His Holiness, The Most Holy Right Reverend Father Amos. 😉
Think I’ll “Rebel” against “Coulure?” and “Customs?
And – Stick with Jesus as the “ONE” Shepherd.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Wade
Thank you for saying…
“I basically agree with what you are saying”
And I can certainly understand, as someone who calls yourself, and has the “Title” “pastor,”
That you do NOT agree, that you, or others, who take the “Title” “Pastor,”
are taking God’s name in Vain – You write…
“but do not believe one is taking God’s name in vain when the word “pastor” is used.”
But – It is a challenging thought – Having called yourself “pastor,” and so many others “pastor.” And having so many “pastors,” and “pastors”families, suffer so much after taking that “Title.” The statistics for pastor burn-out, depression, is horrific…
If anyone thinks I’m exaggerating check out thesee sites helping burned-out pastors.
http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=36562&columnid=
http://www.pastoralcareinc.com/statistics/
* 80% of pastors feel “unqualified” and discouraged in their role as pastor.
* 80% of pastors’ spouses wish their spouse would choose a different profession.
* 80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
…….. Many pastor’s children do not attend church now because
…….. of what the church has done to their parents.
* 77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
* 70% of pastors constantly fight depression.
* 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
* 57% said they would leave if they had a better place to go – including secular work.
* 50% of pastors’ marriages will end in divorce.
* Fifteen hundred (1,500) pastors leave the ministry each month
….due to moral failure, spiritual burnout, or contention in their churches.
C’mon – 57% said they would leave if they had a better place to go.
These stats to NOT create much confidence in todays – pastor/leader/revered.
I should TRUST them??? Are they honest????
And these are the folks who are supoosed to be “Runnin The Show.”
Wade
Was wondering – Is – “I basically agree with what you are saying” – Also true for…
What I am saying about – Leaders – and “Spiritual Leaders.” @ Thu Oct 17, 2013 at 10:53 AM…
“Yes – “Only Servants” – But – You mention “Spiritual Leaders” – or similar – errrr – often…
I count quickly 10 times in your comments on this thread. – You say it so often most folks will think this is a “Biblical” term. – An accurate term. – When “Spiritual Leader” is NOT mentioned once in the scriptures.
———–
Is this something you agree with? Being a “Spiritual Leader” is NOT Biblical? NOT accurate?
When you say? – “I basically agree with what you are saying”
And if you do NOT agree? – Can you answer these questions? That I asked before?
How do you, Wade, reconcile calling yourself, or anyone, – Leader – or – Spiritual Leader?
When NOT one of His Disciples called them self – Leader – or – Spiritual Leader?
When Jesus taught His Disciples NOT to be called – Leader? And none did?
When Jesus taught His Disciples there is “ONE” leader? – Jesus?
Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible.
Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant.”
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
If someone calls themself – Leader? Allows others to call them — Leader?
Are they one of His Disciples?
———
But – Maybe these folks, who call themselves “Spiritual Leaders” and His Disciples
Are just – His “Disobedient” Disciples – Maybe? 🙂
Amos,
It’s all in the definitions.
If you listened to the messages, I show how the Greek word translated “Leader” in the Hebrews 13 passages is the word from which we get our English words “pioneer, or guide.” It carries the idea of someone who goes before (and has nothing to do with authority). This same concept is found in the word “elder.” One is elder because they are “older” and have gone before you in crossing the 20 year, 30 year, 40 year mark.
So, it is all in the definitions. There are HUNDREDS of people who guide us and pioneer the trail for us in each of our individual Christian lives. “Allow yourself to be persuaded by them.” This is all the Scripture is saying. I think you are wanting to establish that the words “pastor” or “leader” carry in culture the idea of “INHERENT AUTHORITY.” I have already said I agree with you – they do not!
You ask, “HOW CAN YOU RECONCILE CALLING YOURSELF OR ANYONE ELSE A LEADER?” I am using the word as “pioneer or guide” not as a word of authority. How can I do this? Listen to the Apostle Paul:
“Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ” (I Corinthians 11:1).
That, Amos, is a LEADER in my definition.
Blessings,
Wade
I am completely fascinated with these discussions. Your thoughts, “Amos”, “Wade”, and “Victorious” are healing to read, simply because they are outliers to what I’ve been exposed to.
How did “church” get like this, I often wonder. And, why do we all continue to let it? I honestly wonder what it will take for all us to stop playing the game. In my opinion, we react so strongly against ecumenicalism that we wrongly hold unto our divisive denominations or membership covenants.
Maybe if we were all imprisoned and tortured for following Jesus (here in the USA). What would “church” be like in prison? Would there be “First Baptist Cell”, “Trinity Basement”, and so on? Would there still be “us” . “them”, and “others”?
Persecution seems to be only thing I’ve learned that unites God’s people. When I think of Jesus praying that we’d be united as He was to Father, I consider the life He lived. Maybe we really have to experience that kind of suffering together to break apart the hierarchies. I don’t know.
A. Amos Love wrote:
Hello A. Amos Love,
Surely you agree that culture plays a part in how we interpret scripture. We don’t, for example, address anyone as “lord” as Sarah did Abraham even in jest. And we don’t dine in a reclining position as mentioned in the gospels, nor do we speak in the KJ language.
Here’s the scripture mentioning the word pastor:
Eph 4:11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors (G4166) and teachers,
Eph 4:12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Here is the meaning in Strongs, New American Standard Concordance, and Thayer’s Greek Dictionary.
G4166 (Strong’s)
poimēn
poy-mane’
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): – shepherd, pastor.
G4166 (NASC)
poimēn; of unc. or.; a shepherd: – pastors (1), shepherd (13), shepherds (4).
G4166 (Thayer’s)
poimēn
Thayer Definition:
1) a herdsman, especially a shepherd
1a) in the parable, he to whose care and control others have committed themselves, and whose precepts they follow
2) metaphorically
2a) the presiding officer, manager, director, of any assembly: so of Christ the Head of the church
2a1) of the overseers of the Christian assemblies
2a2) of kings and princes
Vines New Testament Expository says:
poimen (G4166) metaphorically of Christ, Mat_26:31; Mar_14:27; Joh_10:11, Joh_10:14, Joh_10:16; Heb_13:20; 1Pe_2:25; (c) metaphorically of those who act as pastors in the churches, Eph_4:11. See PASTOR.
Pastor
poimen (G4166), “a shepherd, one who tends herds or flocks” (not merely one who feeds them), is used metaphorically of Christian “pastors,” Eph_4:11. “Pastors” guide as well as feed the flock
These are the reasons that I have no problem using the more culturally understood term of pastor rather than the one of shepherd as understood in the early church.
Thanks, Erik and Victorious, two excellent and superb comments (in my opinion).
Amos, Erik is getting it. The problem is not the words you use, the problem is in the DEFINITIONS of the words you use.
We all are throwing out “one with authority” to define shepherd, leader, guide, pioneer, pastor, etc.. and defining each of these words as verbs (actions) not nouns (positions or offices).
🙂
Hi Erik
If you’re the same Erik that recently departed the fellowship you were a part of, that you shared here at TWW – I hope, and pray, you’re doing well. I’ve kinda been there.
When I had to leave, a fellowship that I truly loved, it was a very dark time. Lots of doubts and fears. Today I can say it was well worth it. Jesus, does make ALL things work together for good. Although it doesn’t seem like it at the time. Lots of pain, lots of tears, lots of doubt. And I was ordained. I was in “Leadership.” But – Now it was my turn to suffer the accusatios by those with the Power- Profit – Prestige… The Leader. The Pastor.
I’ve really appreciated your comments, your heart, – then – as well as now.
I would pray – That you Erik, would recognize and receive…
The Lord, The peace of the Lord, and the Love of the Lord Jesus, as your constant companion.
Heb 13:5
…for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Erik
I’ve questioned this also…
“How did “church” get like this, I often wonder. And, why do we all continue to let it?”
I agree with Wade – “It’s all in the definitions.” – How does someone define “church?”
IMO – “church” has been defined for “WE,” His Body, by so-called “church leaders,” “Culture.”
And – NOT the Bible. – Did anyone “Go To Church?” Join a Church? – In the Bible?
After I left the “church” – I realized, I NEVER left “His Church.” – Huh???
I realized, I NEVER left – His Ekklesia, His Body, His Called Out Ones, His Bride, His Church.
I left the – 501 (c) 3, non-profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation, the IRS calls church.
Should one of His Disciples call an IRS Corporation – The Church of God? His Church?
NO – But that’s what “WE,” His body, does Sunday Morning when we say we “Go to Church.”
Jesus warned “WE,” His Body, His Disciples, about – Commandments of men, Doctrines of men, Traditions of men, that Make Void, Nullify, Cancel out, The Word of God. Seems – Much of what is taught in “Todays Religious System” is “Traditions of men, Culture, NOT the Bible.
Mark 7:13
NLT – And so you “cancel” the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.
KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
My recommendation – And please ask Jesus for yourself if you’re to do this – Read, and re-read, the Gospels. Even just the Red. Get to know Jesus. Make a list of what Jesus taught His Disciples. Because, Jesus, taught His Disciples in Mat 28:19-20 KJV – Go… Teach all nations… (Modern versions – Make disciples) – To observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you… So – “WE,” His Body, need to know what Jesus commanded His Disciples – And Jesus, taught His Disciples NOT to be called Master or Leader in Mat 23:10. And NONE did.
And to define “church,” please print out, read, and re-read, every verse that has the word “church.”
And, as you search the scriptures for what “church” means to you – Ask these questions…
In the Bible – Did any of His Disciples?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Go to* Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Join* a Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Lead* a Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Plant* a Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Pastor* a Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Attend* a Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Tithe* to a Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Look for* a Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Teach* Go to Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Bring their friends* to a Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Apply for Membership* in a Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Call themselves a Leader* in a Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Build, or buy, a building* called Church?
Did any of His Disciples? – *Give silver, gold, or money* to a Church?
*Become – Professional – Pastors* – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews – in a Church. 😉
That sounds like what happens Sun Morn in the – 501 (c) 3, Religious Corporations…
BUT – Is NOT found in the Bible.
If – Jesus did NOT teach any of His Disciples to do any of these things? – In the Bible?
And – NOT one of His Disciples did any of these things? – In the Bible?
Why do “WE?”
Have the “Traditions” taught to us by “church leaders” – Cancel- Out – God’s Word?
When you believe the lie you start to die…
Victorious
As always – You do NOT disappoint with your research. You use some of my favorite reference sources. Strongs – Thayer’s – Vines – And I’m familiar with the Gr – Poimen = shepherd.
I was one who desired to be called “pastor,” and have the “Title” “pastor.” My “pastors” told me I had this so-called Gift of shepherding and teaching. WOW – I can be someone special. – God needed me. – I was “Called.” – NOT only that – These “pastors” also told me – Because of how they taught Eph 4 – They were a GIFT of God to The Church. And that I, Amos, was also this GIFT from God to the Church.
Wow – Amos NOT only had this GIFT – I was this GIFT – And I was called by God.
Who could refuse such “Wisdom?” From such edjumacated folks with “Titles?” 😉
Well, as you can tell – I NO longer believe this.
I NO longer believe Mere Fallible Humans – Have this GIFT – Or “Are” this GIFT.
Thinking I had this GIFT – And was this GIFT – Is – eeerrrr – Balderdash. – Strange B. S. 😉
That’s why I asked….
In the Bible – Can you name one of His Disciples who had this GIFT? Of shepherding?
There are other possibilities to “and gave gifts unto men” from Eph 4. – How about…
“GIFTS” referring to – Jesus – the Holy Spirit – Eternal Life – Spiritual Gifts – Saved by Grace. 😉
I can find these “Gifts” from God in the Bible. – But – NOT the Gift of shepherding.
John 4:10 – Jesus is “the Gift of God.”
Acts 2:38 – You can receive “the Gift of the Holy Spirit.”
rome 6:3 – “the gift of God” is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Eph 2:8 – Our being saved by grace through faith – is “the gift of God.”
1 Cor 12:1-9 – Talks about “spiritual gifts,” – word of wisdom – word of knowledge – faith – healing – working of miracles – prophecy – discerning of spirits – divers kinds of tongues – interpretation of tongues.
And – Jesus, as man, humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
And took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8.
Kinda hard to remain humble – And tell folks, – Hey – I got the GIFT of shepherding.
Kinda hard to remain humble – And folks tell you, – Hey – You got the GIFT of shepherding.
Victorious
“Can you name one of His Disciples who had this GIFT? Of shepherding?”
How can we? “Go… Teach ALL nations… What Jesus commanded His Disciples? Mat 28:19-20
If Jesus did NOT teach, command, His Disciples to call themself “pastor.?” Or shepherd?
When I search the Bible – NOT one of HIs Disciples Called them self “pastor?” Or shepherd?
And NOT one of His Disciples called another Disciple “pastor.” Or shepherd?
Why do “WE?”
Have the “Traditions” taught to us by “pastors,”“church leaders,” – Cancel-Out – God’s Word?
I have found this to be true – shepherds – Their Shepherds -cause folks to go astray…
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:” **their shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
Oh Yeah.- Strange B. S. – aka – Strange Belief Systems… 😉
A. Amos Love wrote:
Let me see if I can provide at least a reasonable (imo) answer to your question of “why do we?”
Whether or not we like it, A.Amos Love (may I call you Amos?) times and seasons change. I know how many dislike the word culture, so I won’t use it although I did give several examples of cultural changes in a post above. We don’t offer to wash a visitor’s feet when they visit our homes nor do we as a rule, greet church members with a kiss, but rather a handshake or even a friendly hug. There are other examples you will notice as you read through scripture.
Now, let’s go waaay back to Moses and the Israelites in the desert. Moses had “led” the people thru the desert, not because he was an authority, but because he was familiar with the desert having spent 40 yrs. there. God called him to “lead” His people in that capacity. The people knew Moses heard from God so they looked to him to settle their disputes and answer questions. Then it became an overwhelming task and Moses was serving in this capacity from morning till night until his father-in-law saw the need for a change. That change involved additional servants (Exodus 18:22). Moses was to settle the major disputes and the others would settle the minor ones.
Now fast forward to the Acts of the Apostles when the apostles had received the Holy Spirit and believers began to multiply; both gentiles and Jews. We are told that at one point, 3,000 souls were converted. It was following those “revivals” that Paul sees the need for some organization among believers and begins to make suggestions to the assemblies that would promote reasonable order and recognition of giftings/talents (both spiritual and natural) that would benefit them and honor God.
So, that’s how circumstances necessitate change. But no one is forced to attend a particular assembly of believers if they are not comfortable at one. We can fellowship with 2-3-4 believers or at a building where 3-4-5 thousand gather to worship and hear the Word of God.
And lastly, evidently all of the Hebrews knew who Moses was and where to find him as did the early believers with Paul. We know that because his letters indicate they have written to him about their concerns and questions. So while there are a number of gifts exhibited by believers, not all are recognized by a “title” name plate on the door. But that’s because by virtue of the gift, it is not necessary. For example, no one would normally ask, “who is the “mercy-person” in this assembly; or “where are the hospitality people here?” They just function naturally whenever someone is in need of mercy or hospitality. Same with the gift of helps or administration. Their gift or talent becomes obvious and they may be called upon when that gift is needed.
So, in the end, for me the word shepherd is a metaphor for the one in a local assembly who cares for those in that assembly and 1) sets an example; 2) teaches the Word; 3) recognizes gifts and talents and fills the needs as they arise.
Hope that helps a little. I didn’t touch on the spiritual/supernatural giftings which I believe are still being manifest, but thought you were more concerned with the organizational giftings.
Amos,
I think the Bible speaks of shepherds so often because the Israelites were primarily an Agrarian people who were familiar with the significance more than we are today. Beginning with Abel who was a keeper of the flock and even Rachel who was a shepherd. They tended the sheep and God lamented those times when there was no shepherd to tend to His people.
Wade
Much agreement with – “It’s all in the definitions.”
Also agree – ““Leader” in the Hebrews 13 passages is the word from which we get our English words “pioneer, or guide.” It carries the idea of someone who goes before (and has nothing to do with authority).”
I wrote this @ Wed Oct 16, 2013 at 02:38 PM….
Hegeomai does mean, to lead, it also means “to go before.” “To esteem.”
A brethren who goes before? – Who you esteem?
Or – I’m the leader/boss? Who you “Will” Obey? – Out of Fear?
Yes – Hegeomai has nothing to do with authority.
We’re in agreement – Hooray. 😉
Wade
The Challenge I have is when you write @ Fri Oct 18, 2013 at 01:53 PM…
“You ask, “HOW CAN YOU RECONCILE CALLING YOURSELF OR ANYONE ELSE A LEADER?” I am using the word as “pioneer or guide” not as a word of authority. How can I do this? Listen to the Apostle Paul:
“Follow my example, as I follow the example of Christ” (I Corinthians 11:1).
That, Amos, is a LEADER in my definition.”
———–
Seems to me – That, Wade, is a HEGEOMAI in your definition. – A “pioneer or guide”
NOT a definition of LEADER. – Paul always called himself a servant – NEVER a LEADER.
The challenge is with the translaters who used LEADER…
And you are attempting to – Redefine LEADER – Because as you say – and I agree…
“the words “pastor” or “leader” carry in culture the idea of “INHERENT AUTHORITY.”
Maybe that’s why Jesus commanded His Disciples – NOT to be called LEADER.
Because that word LEADER comes with “INHERENT AUTHORITY.”
And NOT one Disciple called them self “pastor” because of the “INHERENT AUTHORITY.”
But Servant – Well, you can NOT find many books, or conferences, about being a Servant.
And It’s NOT just the coulure – It’s the Dictionary Definition – And what we grew up with.
In – and Out of – “Todays Religious System.” We ALL played “Follow the LEADER.” If someone is the LEADER, then I’m the Follower. – BUT – NO longer – Tried Following Humans – that didn’t work out so well.
Jesus also taught His Disciples – there is only “ONE” LEADER – Jesus…
You quote Paul – And – I quote Jesus.
You quote Paul like most of “Todays Religious System” without checking with Jesus first.
They quote Paul even when it does NOT match with Jesus – They’ll “Ignore” what Jesus taught.
You quote Paul – But I see Paul saying he is a Follower of Jesus – NOT a LEADER.
In the verse you quoted Paul says “imitate me as I imitate Christ. – NOT follow me, Paul.
And that’s what “WE” should be – a Follower of Jesus – NOT a LEADER.
I quote Jesus – Who taught His Disciples NOT to be called LEADER or GUIDE.
Yes – In Mat 23:10 KJV – NOT to be called masters – master means – GUIDE.
Master KJV – Strongs #2519 kathegetes – a guide, i.e. (figuratively) a teacher:– master.
Thayers – kathegetes – a guide.
So – As His Disciples we are taught NOT to be called LEADERS – NOT to be called GUIDES.
So – Even if your definition of LEADER is correct – “pioneer or guide”
Jesus is still teaching Disciples NOT to be called GUIDE …
There is “ONE” GUIDE…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Victorious
Just noticed your comments when I commented to Wade.
Thanks for the thoughts – I do appreciate your explanations.
And for continuing this challenging conversation in such a pleasant manner.
Your “Shepherds Heart” is showing. 🙂
One who cares – sets an example – nurturing – teaching/instructing – Loves Jesus…
Just your writing style alone is worthwhile. – I enjoy it…
Even when we see things a little differently.
Haven’t the time now to reply to all you’ve written – Maybe tomorrow…
Malachi 3:16 KJV
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before him
for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Be Blessed – And continue to be a Blessing….
Good morning Victorious
Thought I would comment on your comment @ Sat Oct 19, 2013 at 02:48 PM…
And – Before you began, you quote, copy, something I said @ Sat Oct 19, 2013 at 01:38 PM…
———-
“When I search the Bible – NOT one of HIs Disciples Called them self “pastor?” Or shepherd?
And NOT one of His Disciples called another Disciple “pastor.” Or shepherd?
Why do “WE?”
————–
And you begin…
“Let me see if I can provide at least a reasonable (imo) answer to your question of “why do we?”
And you go on to explaine, very well I might add, Why you, and many today, use “pastor” and “shepherd.” And go along with new customs and words NOT found in the Bible. I’m familiar with your reasoning. I even believed it and taught it in a similar way. BUT – today, since leaving “The Abusive Religious system” – I see them a little differently… 😉
And – I do have some additional ideas about your thoughts on Moses – Later…
———–
BUT – What you copied from my comment was incomplete. 🙁
I’ll take the blame for that. I probably did NOT make myself clear about – “Why do “WE?”
So – I’ll repost what I see as the more complete thought and expand it. 🙂
Often, when I use “WE,” I’m referring to those who belong to Jesus – redeemed by His Blood…
“WE” – His Body, His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Kings and Priests, His Church, His Bride, His Disciples, His Servants, His sons, His Ambassodors, The Church of God. – You and Me – “WE” 😉
.
Victorious
Here is that more complete thought from @ Sat Oct 19, 2013 at 01:38 PM..
“Victorious
“Can you name one of His Disciples who had this GIFT? Of shepherding?”
How can we? “Go… Teach ALL nations… What Jesus commanded His Disciples? Mat 28:19-20
If Jesus did NOT teach, command, His Disciples to call themself “pastor.?” Or shepherd?
When I search the Bible – NOT one of His Disciples Called them self “pastor?” Or shepherd?
And NOT one of His Disciples called another Disciple “pastor.” Or shepherd?
Why do “WE?”
————-
Here is what I was trying to get at – It’s about “His Disciples” and Go make Disciples…
If, as the SBC says, and others, there is this “The Great Commission?” Where those who are “His Disciples” are to “Go and make Disciples?” Then, how are “WE,” His Body, His Church, You and Me, to do that?
Seems Jesus gives “WE,” His Disciples, His Body, fairly simple instructions in Mat 28:19-20.
Mat 28:19-20 NKJV
Go therefore and make disciples… (KJV – has – Teach all nations)
**…teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you**
Seem simple, read the four Gospels. Make a list of what Jesus commanded His Disciples.
Then “Go” and “Teach” them to observe what Jesus commanded His Disciples.
BUT – In my experience – The SBC, and others, do NOT do, or follow, His instructions.
And they certainly do NOT teach the way Jesus did. By example – In the streets – NOT pulpits…
Jesus was – Preaching the Kingdom of God – In the Streets – Healing the sick.
Then sending His Disciples – OUT – To Preach the Kingdom of God – And Heal the sick. Lu 9:2.
I’ve noticed, Most, today, who desire to be known as – pastor/leader/teacher…
Will “Ignore” or “Twist” what Jesus taught “His Disciples” in the Gospels – Because…
What Jesus taught His Disciples in the Gospels is directly opposed to “WE,” His Body, having…
A Mere Fallible Human as – shepherd/leader/teacher…
Do you know any – Who desire to be known as – shepherd/leader/teacher – Will teach what…
Jesus taught “His Disciples?” – NOT to be called “Leader?” – NOT to be called “Teacher?”
There is “ONE” Shepherd? – There is “ONE” Leader? – There is “ONE” Teacher?
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Can “WE?” His Called Out Ones, His Church? Make a Disciple of Jesus?”
If “WE,” His Body, His Disciples, do NOT – Teach, and “DO” – What Jesus did and taught?
Mat 28:20 NKJV
**…teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you**
Are “WE” allowed to “Ignore” or “Twist” what Jesus taught “His Disciples” in the Gospels?
.
Jesus taught “His Disciples?” – NOT to be called “Leader?” – NOT to be called “Teacher?”
There is “ONE” Shepherd? – There is “ONE” Leader? – There is “ONE” Teacher?
Does the fact that the disciples were Jewish have any bearing on these words of Jesus, do you think? This would have been a very different concept to those steeped in the Torah, ruled authoritatively by Rabbis and Pharisee-type leaders who loved to be the center of attention. For they loved the chief seats in the synagogues and the respectful greetings in the market places. They ignored justice, mercy and faithfulness and oppressed the poor. This was the “religion” the disciples would be familiar with. But Jesus presented them with a very different type of Rabbi than they had known; humble and wise while exhibiting the gentle heart of a servant who had come for sinners and to serve rather than be served.
This was the message they were to pass on to those they were sent to. Not the message of the Oral Law or that of the Pharisees. Jesus was to be the focus. The message to the new disciples was one of life, hope, joy, love, etc. The things of the heart they had learned from Jesus.
I think seeing Paul in this context of his Jewish background has the same effect on those to whom he teaches and disciples. The revelation of Jesus he received was so the opposite of what he had believed for so many years.
I do think the responsibility of a pastor or shepherd is to lift Jesus up and make Him the focus of the time together as an assembly of believers. If we find ourselves in a church where the pastor is focusing on himself, we should feel no regrets about leaving.
I still think practices, words, and cultures evolve through no fault of our own. It’s just the way things are as evidenced by our progress in medicine, science, and convenient utilities, etc. and normally (but not always) it’s a good thing.
If I had my way, the perfect assembly would mirror the one Paul mentioned in 1 Cor. 14:26 where all members of the body contribute something for the edification of all. (and I have experienced such a gathering btw) But when the members get too many for that “format”, they relegate it to Wed. night groups it seems. (minus the spiritual gifts of tongues, prophecy, and knowledge, of course…sarcasm off).
Anyway, I’m hope you agree that reading scripture in its historical context leads to a greater understanding on the impact it would have had on those who heard it’s message. Of course its application is timeless and the impact slightly different depending on one’s background.
Just wanted to add that we are all disciples who teach and make other disciples (pupils/learners). I’ve preached Jesus in the drugstore, my garden, a hockey game, and anywhere there was a hungry heart. I don’t agree with disciple/accountability groups, but many like them and have found them to be beneficial. We don’t necessarily preach in the public streets, but if you want to I suppose you could do so (unless a permit is required in your locale.)
I’ve often thought a kiosk-type arrangement with a sign that reads “need prayer?” would be a perfect venue for witnessing. Who doesn’t need prayer…even non-believers admit they don’t object to prayers. What a sign of caring would that be? With no strings attached. No books to sell; no papers to sign; nothing. Just let me pray with/for you.
But I’m rambling…. 🙂
A. Amos Love wrote:
Thanks for the encouragement Amos. ( how do you get an avatar or picture? )
Yeah, it has been a very lonely and isolating month. On top of feeling like we lost our family of God, my wife and I are going to our 3rd funeral this week in such a short time. So, it certainly feels like a season of mourning. But, like Wade preached about, Jesus is the only sure thing that will never change.
I can relate to your story. I was also “in the ministry” and studied at Bible College. Two different institutions, at two different seasons of life, resulted in me having to leave my position. I was told that I was rebellious, critical, or unwilling to submit. I “touched the Lord’s annointed” and “grieved the Spirit” by wanting to know what Scripture supported the teachings or manifestations. After being twice bitten, I stopped being part of “churches” for many years.
But, five years ago, I gave it all another chance. I dove in headfirst again. I took a longer time getting into “leadership” positions, but I never held anything back. And there were some beautiful blessed moments that truly helped revive my First Love for Jesus. I don’t regret any of it. I will love that community always. I think they are sincerely trying to glorify God in all that they do. The pastors are genuinely caring men, who I realized just have some very different ideas than me. Those differences should never have become such a force to separate us from unity, but I think there was just too much passion all around.
When I read and pray about the ideas you share, it certainly connects with me. I’ve always longed for that Body of Christ mutuality, like Victorious also mentioned. I guess I’ve given up on it because I’ve not found it. How would one go about living that out “off the grid”?
Victorious wrote:
I’d like to know more about why you don’t like these. For me, the idea of them makes sense, but the institutionalizing of them doesn’t. For example, being assigned a discipleship leader.
Victorious
Seems we’re mostly in agreement – With lots of stuff… 😉
And – I’m certainly with you on this…
“I’ve preached Jesus in the drugstore, my garden, a hockey game,
and anywhere there was a hungry heart.”
I’ve done lots of cool stuff over the years since I left, what I call, “The Abusive Religious System”
The 501 (c) 3, non-profit, Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporations, the IRS calls church.
Mostly volunteering at Food Pantry’s, Missions that feed on the streets, Homeless Ministries.
Working with the down and outers, those in real need. On vacant lots and very cold streets.
It’s wonderful what you can learn about Jesus – And faith – From the least of these… Mt 25:40
Lately, I’ve been hanging out at the local Barnes & Nobles Book store, 5-6-7 days a week. Free WiFi – Nice soft easy chairs – And lots of coffee. – A cafe with tables and chairs. And the gifts of the Holy Spirit are NOT restricted here – We have the favor of God. – NO leaders – NO pastors – NO authority – NO collection plates – NO tithes…
Just hanging out – Waiting to ask someone – Do you need prayer for anything today? Do you have any pain? Any backaches, neck aches? Are you on any medication? Any disappointments, sorrow? A broken heart?
Can I pray for you… 🙂
“With no strings attached. No books to sell; no papers to sign; nothing.
Just let me pray with/for you.”
Pleanty of atheists, new age, believers, non- believers, catholics, EX-catholics, Old and Young.
Plenty of EX-church goers and Believers who reject “Religion” and “Todays Religious System.”
I’m amazed at what Jesus can do when we turn over the “Leadership” to Jesus.
And be willing to be “Led” by the Spirit. And NOT lean on your own understanding.
Sometimes it looks and sounds just like you mentioned about – 1 Cor. 14:26.
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue,
hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
Everyone can and do particapate – sometimes 2-3, or 6-7 folks, we go on for hours….
Seems everyone has an opinion – And when they get a chance to speak – They do…
Yeah – Plenty of people want to talk – Even about Jesus – They have broken hearts…
And sickness and dis…ease caused by a broken heart.
And only Jesus can heal the broken hearted.
I like your idea…
“I’ve often thought a kiosk-type arrangement with a sign that reads “need prayer?” would be a perfect venue for witnessing. Who doesn’t need prayer…”
Try this – YWAM – “Youth With A Mission” – Prayer Stations….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCtHjKI35NM
Ps 138:6
Though the LORD be high, yet hath he respect unto the lowly:
but the proud he knoweth afar off.
Ps 40:4
Blessed is that man that maketh the LORD his trust,
and respecteth not the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
@ A. Amos Love:
I love the cafe illumination. Love it. I recently started doing something similar. I walk around my neighborhood, just silently praying or singing to God. i try to catch my sail in wherever the Spirit is blowing. I’ve ended up talking to homeless people, angry teenagers, drug dealers, and even some church leaders. I listen to their stories and also ask ways I can pray. Very few people ever refuse prayer. And I have watched The Comforter melt hearts before my eyes when they realize how dearly beloved they are to the Father. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
Erik
I’m sorry for all that you’re going thru now – I can relate… Oy Vey!!! 🙁
“On top of feeling like we **lost our family of God,**
my wife and I are going to our 3rd funeral this week in such a short time.”
The separations from those we love is tough. Especially from **my family of God.**
After going through many separations from – Believers – Family – Friends…
Some because of dis-agreement – Some ugly – Some because of location – Some just because…
I cried out to God in great anguish – great tears – great sobs – runny nose…
Lord, Heeelllppp!!! – I can’t take anymore separations – the pain – the tears – Make it stop…
What’s the sense of serving you – When there is so much – Pain – Failure – Nothing works…
I don’t even know how to Pray – Or what to pray for – Nothing works…
And – I heard Jesus – In that still small voice – Say…
My son – I’m NOT – Separating you from people…
I love it when Jesus calls me son… 😉
Jesus said – My son – I’m NOT – Separating you from people…
I’m – Separating you unto myself…
————
Erik – I know the pain – I had NO words of encouragement…
But – There was a benefit – I was in a perfect place to get to know Jesus…
What most call church had disappointed me – Pastor/Leaders had disappointed me…
I had NO place else to Go – But – Go To Jesus – And Jesus is the best – The “ONE” Shepherd. 😉
I can NOW rejoice for you – You’re in a great place to get to know Jesus… 😉
Read the Gospels – Read the Red – Over and over again – Stay in the gospels – Talk to Jesus…
Get to hear His Voice – When Jesus tells you – Your okay – You’ll know – You’re okay… 😉
It’s to be – Trust and obey – NOT – think and decide…
Learn to – Trust and Obey – Jesus…NOT – think and decide – for yourself…
——–
Deuteronomy 4:36
Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
that *He might instruct thee:*
John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL truth…
Joh 10:27
My Sheep – Hear My Voice, and I know them, and – They Follow Me:
Jesus never asks His Disciples to “Follow” a human “Leader.”
Jesus always asks His Disciples to Follow Him – {{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
.
@ Erik:
Hi Eric
Love your comment – Sounds like you are experiencing – New Life – His Life…
And giving jesus to those in need – cool… 😉
@ Erik:
“i try to catch my sail in wherever the Spirit is blowing.”
John 3:8 NASB
The *wind blows where it wishes — (*wind – pneuma – Spirit)
and you hear the sound of it,
but do not know where it comes from
and where it is going;
so is everyone **who is born of the Spirit.**”
But – that sounds way to easy – To simple – Just going where the wind blows…
Don’t We have to be planted someplace? – under authority? – under a covering?
Obeying our Leaders? – Submitting to authority?
Enough – sorry for the snark – well, only a little sorry – Ahhh – Liberty in Jesus – Glory…
2 Cor 3:17
Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is LIBERTY.
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
@ Erik:
Amen…
“And I have watched The Comforter melt hearts before my eyes when they realize how dearly beloved they are to the Father. Jesus is the same yesterday, today, and forever.”
How simple – Just let folks know that they are LOVED – By Jesus…
How simple – Just let folks know that they are FORGIVEN – By Jesus and His Blood…
And God – Remembers our sins NO more – And we don’t have to either – remember our sins.
A. Amos Love wrote:
Amen and Amen! And there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus!