It is better that scandals arise than the truth be suppressed Pope St. Gregory the Great 6
In apparent disregard of the child sex abuse resolution at this year's SBC Convention, SEBTS, an SBC seminary headed by Dr Danny Akin, will feature CJ Mahaney on February 7-8. This invitation was given prior to the resolution but has not been rescinded. Mahaney has been a frequent speaker at the seminary which hosts this conference.
From the Associated Baptist Press we learn:
C.J. Mahaney, pastor of Sovereign Grace Church in Louisville, Ky., is listed on the seminary website among plenary speakers for the 20/20 Collegiate Conference themed "Ekklesia: God's Perspective on the Church," scheduled Feb. 7-8, 2014.
Other projected speakers include Southeastern Seminary President Daniel Akin and Russell Moore, new president of the Southern Baptist Convention Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission.
This action is surprising in light of CJ Mahaney's name being removed from the T4G History page along with the removal of Akin Al Mohler (Update original ed. error)and Mark Dever's controversial statement of support.
Southern Seminary President Albert Mohler and Mark Dever, pastor of Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, joined a colleague in voicing support for Mahaney in a statement posted on the website of Together for the Gospel
“We have stood beside our friend, C. J. Mahaney, and we can speak to his personal integrity,” said the statement, which was subsequently removed. The ministry, popular among the New Calvinism movement gaining influence in SBC life, has also removed Mahaney’s name from an “Our History” page that formerly listed the four founders by name.
This comes to light in the shadow of a criminal trial about to begin in November.
A criminal trial gets underway Nov. 18 for Nate Morales, charged with 14 counts of sex crimes between 1985 and 1990 at Covenant Life Church. (ed note-SGM flagship) The civil lawsuit claims Morales was just one of several pedophiles protected by church leaders who did not report alleged abuse to the police, opting instead to handle it internally as a matter of church discipline.
Questions: Is CJ Mahaney the right person for college students to emulate? Does CJ Mahaney best represent the core values of SEBTS? Why?
As always, pray for the victims of child sex abuse. Never, ever forget their faces in the debate.
HUMBLY, of course.
(chuckle chuckle)
I’m trying to guess whether T4G dumped Mahaney or whether Mahaney asked to be let go for the sake of the organization. The fact that he is still speaking at other conferences–and pastoring a church–makes it seem less likely that he has put himself underground.
What the conversations are like between these men behind closed doors, God only knows….
And the faithful just keep on tithing.
Roll on.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
But winsomely
Ask yourself this: Should I attend this conference? What will my attendance communicate about the organization sponsoring the event? What will my attendance communicate about a particular speaker? By attending this conference (or any other conference), do I give my tacit approval to what the organization believes, overtly or not?
Additionally, if I am asked to speak at a conference, what does the acceptance of that invitation communicate? If I were in Mahaney’s shoes, would I go forward and accept the invitation? Will I (or do I) hold myself to the same standard as I judge another? Do I judge myself by my intentions and others by their actions?
Are we so afraid of being judged that we fail to or improperly judge the words and actions of another? My guess: Yes. And we continue to finance the means by which churches/organizations operate.
JeffT wrote:
and gospelly
Participant Observer wrote:
My guess is neither happened. If you remember, when CJ “stepped down” a while back he ran to Dever’s arms from CLC and was speaking all over the place. He stepped down from what, exactly? SGM? Appears not. He was not the pastor of CLC, either so not sure what he “stepped down” from. It certainly was not public speaking and traveling as CJ the famous pastor.
I think we are seeing more of the same now. He won’t be promoted in places like T$G as he was in the past but he is not out of the scene either.
Frankly, my guess is that many of them wish he would go away. Most of those guys are more cowardly than you think. If they tel him to go away and cancel his engagements then they admit they were wrong all along….adn they were defending him to the hilt up to the Facebooks statement. They look not only lacking in wisdom and discernment but not to be trusted.
Also, CJ is not the type that fades away easily either. There are plenty of vids floating around out there with him fawning over them. CJ is big into flattery. He played the court jester for years with the T$G team. He is the only one not educated. This was the big time for him.
I suspect after the facebook statement CJ got the hint about T$G and probably agreed to the statement but remember, it was quite vague.
CJ was also instrumental in starting T$G and it’s operations. These guys are slippery as eels. All of them.
@ Anon 1
That’s some sad stuff. I remember when church was about hearing the good news of God’s love for us in Christ and then spending time together in worship and fellowship. Nobody cared if you had the right doctrine. The people weren’t perfect–they probably had some sin in their lives–but they also weren’t religious gangsters and entrepreneurs. Those were the good old days.
Participant Observer wrote:
I couldn’t help but remember Edith thumping out the chords on the old upright and Archie singing: Guys like us we had it made, those were the days
Folks…what you are seeing is exactly that…cowardice. Why? Because any REAL MEN….especially those with a DAUGHTER….would stand up and either oppose MaHaney or otherwise say that they should stay out of his way until things are cleared up…to listen to the allegations and wait to see what happens until they give approval. But…alas..there are no REAL MEN over there to speak up against his speaking….that’s why we are in the mess we are in….no REAL MEN….men with COURAGE and CONVICTION and the GUTS to stand up for what is right……they might take a lesson from the world…..wow….isn’t that sad?
BTW: SBC entity EMPLOYEES like Akin are ignoring the resolution passed at the last convention. The rules don’t apply to them. The arrogance of these men is astounding. We pay them a lot of money to give us the finger.
We should remember that some in the SBC got onto George H.W. Bush (and Barbara) for going to a wedding. They pointed out that there were many implications in this action. Maybe there are similar implications in going to this conference?
As a person who has been abused as a child and raped as an adult, this makes me very, very sick. May God change the hearts involved in this mess. Please keep writing and covering the topics that you do. American evangelicalism is a mess, no wonder our country has become so godless. May God bless your work.
@ Bennett Willis: When you go to a wedding, you usually go because you are friends or related to the happy couple. Now, perhaps those who go to the conference are friends or related to Mahaney? How nice!
@ dee:
“American evangelicalism is a mess, no wonder our country has become so godless”
++++++++++++
a mess, yes. as to our country being godless…. not sure I agree. not even sure what that means. but i’m getting tangential here. (as my college peers were in the habit of saying, more years ago than I can believe.)
Muff Potter wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV5LQcmuGg8
Listen close to the lyrics. Archie is reacting to Future Shock; his world has changed not only beyond his comfort zone, but almost beyond recognition and he’s finding himself completely out to sea.
@ Deb Richardson: When it comes to child sex abuse, TWW holds no punches.
Muff Potter wrote:
Those were the days my friend,
we thought they’d never end,
we’d sing and dance forever and a day.
We’d live the lives we’d choose,
we’d fight and never lose,
oh we were young and sure to have our way…Anon 1 wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GMkuPiIZ2k
@ elastigirl:
an unnecessary comment. sorry.
According to the website for this conference, C. J. Mahaney is still a member of the “Council” of the “Alliance of Confession Evangelicals.” That means that all of the following members of ACE’s Council are compromised, for as long as they continue to serve side-by-side with him on a “council” purporting to help “confess” the evangelical gospel. So sad, and even tragic.
Alliance Council:
Eric Alexander
Alistair Begg
Gerald Bray
Jerry Bridges
Donald Carson
Mark Dever
Ligon Duncan
Sinclair Ferguson
Robert Godfrey
John Hannah
Paul Jones
John MacArthur
C.J. Mahaney
Albert Mohler
Richard Phillips
John Piper
Philip Ryken
R. C. Sproul
Derek Thomas
Carl Trueman
Gene Veith
David Wells
Sadly, this shouldn’t surprise anyone. At that very same convention in which the SBC passed the abuse resolution, they featured a megachurch pastor, Jack Graham of Prestonwood Baptist, on a panel speaking on “leadership.” Graham is on record for failure to report a confessed child predator and still remains callously silent, refusing to report several known child predators to police who were on his staff, ignoring pleas by a victim’s mother as well as from now adult survivors. That sure didn’t seem to bother anyone then in June at the SBC annual meeting, including the author of the resolution. This is more of the long history of SBC support for other pastors like Mahaney who protect child predators. The resolution doesn’t hold anyone accountable or protect kids. Nothing has changed.
Muff Potter wrote:
There’s also a pretty good song by Weird Al Yankovic called, “Good Old Days.”
pcapastor wrote:
“These 22 Kings said one to another:
‘King unto King o’er the world is brother’…”
Amy Smith wrote:
Don’t be deceived. The author of the resolution doesn’t give one whit about protecting children or exposing churches and pastors who protect and cover for predators. His vicious Twitter attack on you proved that. The author of the resolution hates calvinists and will use any opportunity available to make them look bad. Not that the calvinists in question need any help in that area, but I digress. Mahaney, Moore, and Mohler are calvinists. Jack Graham is not. Ergo….
@ pcapastor:
Incidentally, C.J. Mahaney is still listed not only as a member of The Gospel Coalition’s council, but as the president of Sovereign Grace Ministries, a position I thought he gave up six months ago.
I’m not going to list all the TGC council members here. However, there are some I respect, including Erwin Lutzer, Tim Keller and John Yates, who’ve got some explaining to do concerning their association with C.J. Mahaney and his enablers at TGC.
It’s all about the patriarchs and protecting the patriarchy from uppity wimmins and their screaming kids. Don’t these wimmins and chillins know that they’re just property–things? They’re not REAL people until they’re adult males. Otherwise they’re dispensible.
The FLDS are resident here in Arizona, and when I see what they do to women and children in the name of “God,” and then look to these various outfits within the Southern Baptists who tacitly condone spousal and child abuse, I don’t see any difference in kind, only in degree.
Another obnoxious story I remember from my stay in Utah in the 1990s: A young man who had abused a little girl, had pleaded guilty and was serving time in the Utah Penitentiary was paroled without conditions so he could go on a Mormon church mission. The local patriarchs were all in favor of this, even though the parents of this little girl pleaded not to give the young man this privilege. The father got nowhere and broke rank with the other patriarchs and went to the Salt Lake Tribune with the odious tale. The LDS church had called this convicted child abuser on a mission to Chile! Seriously, they cared so much for the little children they were going to send a young man with a conviction to a foreign country, where he would have been in a privileged position. Who knows what kind of foreign policy disaster that might have been. I don’t know who the anonymous father was, but I know he paid–he and his family had to move out of the neighborhood because they were harassed by the family and friends of the convicted pedophile.
Just as Christianity had to get over the idea that it was ok for a believer to hold another believer as chattel property, so too will Christianity have to get over the idea that just because one is female (of any age) or a child, that that person doesn’t count as much (or at all) as the adult with the correct plumbing and XY chromosomes. Seeing that kind of inequality perpetuated in the name of Jesus Christ, has pretty much permanently turned me off to the whole “church” idea. I honestly don’t think Jesus intended for this kind of hierarchical nonsense to go on. But what do I know? I’m just a temptress like Eve, determined to bring the righteous XYs down…
These men who continually show how much they love women and children by raising up a man who protected child molestors, well, that just says volumes.
It’s back to work for CJ Mahaney after all the $$$$$ he spent taking his entire family to celebrate his 60th birthday (Sept. 21st) at Walt Disney’s Beach Club Resort https://disneyworld.disney.go.com/resorts/beach-club-resort/ walking distance from the Epcot Resort Area. Just think of all the families that gave so much money to SGM so that CJ could take his family on all those vacations when many of them will never afford to be able to do so themselves. All along they thought they were contributing to advancing God’s Kingdom rather than underwrite trips to the Magic Kingdom!
https://twitter.com/girltalkhome/status/385129133946044417/photo/1
Since none of his daughters, son or his wife do anything, and his son-in-laws are all company men, drawing checks from the small, struggling SGM church they followed the $$$$ trail to join, you can be sure Pop-Pop paid the bill. No doubt it took very little convincing to get the kids to follow Mahaney to Louisville. With fancy vacations like that, staying close to Mom & Dad and helping them “serve God” sure doesn’t appear to have been much of a sacrifice, now does it?
@ elastigirl: Actually, questioning the godless nature of America is intriguing. From what I can see, the Almighty is invoked by every Tom, Dick and Harry. The real question is “What do we mean by god full?”
@ pcapastor: When church leaders remain silent, things do continue as usual. Does it really surprise you? We sometime value American culture over difficult truth. Within some of these groups” We all need to get along” far surpasses the need to confront hard realities.
notastepfordsheep wrote:
Exactly. It’s a farce to only call out these evangelical ties to pastors like Mahaney while ignoring the evil of child sexual abuse by their OWN Baptist clergy and covered up by their own. One need look no further than Christa Brown’s site Stop Baptist Predators http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm to see this systemic corruption, at the lowest and highest levels and everywhere in between. I’m currently reading her book This Little Light that makes me want to scream and bang my head against a wall. Lord, please shine your light of truth, move the mountains of silence, darkness, lies and deceit, heal the wounded, and set all the captives free.
Another one that got a pass was Steve Gaines, the Elmer Gantry of SBC mega church pastors.
This is not an excuse but an explanation. What is the difference between Steve Gaines and Jack Graham vs Al Mohler and Danny Akin?
Mohler and Akin are SBC entity EMPLOYEES. They are not automomous pastors who are accountable to their congregation. If the congregation does not care if they protect predators then what can one do? If the congregation wants a celebrity pastor above accountability to them and they don’t care if they ever see a detailed budget or not, then that suggests a deeper problem with them, too.
Now, if you go back about 20-30 years what was the issue for the CR? The horrors going on in SBC seminaries that people were paying for. Well now we have WORSE horrors going on that bring in questions of morals and ethics and whether they really care about little children being molested. (They don’t as their actions prove) The seminaries are the starting place for what becomes the “normal” in the pulpits.
None of this will change until the money dries up. It has to dry up in mega churches with it’s blind followers of the celebrity pastor and it has to dry up for seminaries that are producing non thinking, arrogant young pastors who will think if their leaders don’t have a big problem with Mahaney, then obviously there is not a problem with them.
@ Evie:
Evie, If anyone thinks CJ escaped Maryland a poor man, I have some great property in Arkansas to sell them. My guess is he is set for life. It is just that guys like CJ don’t do well in obscurity enjoying the largess that came with being lead Apostle for so long. They desperately need a stage.
Anon 1 wrote:
To the contrary, actually. Jack Graham is a 2-time former president of the SBC and is held up as a model of leadership. That was my original point. He was a featured panelist on “leadership” at the SBC pastors’ conference at the annual meeting in Houston in June. The SBC has selective moral and ethical outrage as well as selective use of its autonomous polity: http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-selective-outrage-of-southern.html
The SBC must be willing to demand accountability in reporting of abuse and cease using autonomy as an excuse not to discipline churches and pastors within the SBC who cover up abuse. According to the Associated Baptist Press, in 2010, “for the second year in a row, the Georgia Baptist Convention has withdrawn fellowship from one of its most historic member churches for calling a woman as pastor.” The SBC is selective in the use of their autonomous polity.
http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2013/07/vocal-for-victims.html
Okay..time to weigh in. CJ Mahaney is like herpes. Just when you think its gone away it comes back. Yuck..why people follow, hold high, and invite someone who blackmailed, cover-up crimes, etc… Mahnaey does not have the charachter to be a spiritual leader. They can say..look at David, etc… they were messed up. The difference is that David repented when confronted. This brand of fundagelcialism needs a Nathan that will get in the face of someone like Mahaney. End rant…
You know…I’m puzzeled why an organziation like ABC 20/20, CBS 48 Hours, etc.. doesn’t do an expose or in depth investigative story on some of this stuff. They reported on individual SBC pastors, IFB, FLDS, why not an expose on SGM?
@ Eagle:
I think it just doesn’t make bank for them. I remember when the Warren Jeffs stuff was going on, I looked for news about it but there wasn’t much. Most of America isn’t interested in these religious messes so maybe it doesn’t bring in the advertising.
Eagle wrote:
The assumption being that Mahaney is a David that will actually listen to Nathan?
@ Amy Smith:
It was easier for SBC to call out an issue when it wasn’t one of their own. They could easily point to the affiliation with “that outsider” while giving their own man a pass. I saw the exchange between you and Peter. I couldn’t believe what I saw.
It’s pretty appalling to see that calling a woman as a pastor gets a church booted from an affiliation, but a pastor covering up child sexual abuse doesn’t.
@ Bridget:
I think you hit the nail on the head.
The SBC has also succumbed to the cult of personality when it comes to electing mega church pastors. So Why does Prestonwood put up with it? Why did Bellevue look the other way when Gaines protected a pedophile on staff?
At some point the pew sitters who pay for it all have to take responsibility for what they are promoting and protecting.
singleman wrote:
Exactly. I haven’t perused the TGC council members names, but on the ACE council there are MANY I respect. That is what makes this whole thing so shocking to me. Leaders who in many other facets of their lives have demonstrated years of wisdom and sound judgment, all now collectively insane in this one particularly tragic way. I don’t know why they haven’t either demanded his removal from the council or resigned themselves. But the fact is that they haven’t, and thus are themselves compromised, whether they know it or not.
At some point we all must come to grips with the fact that every Christian leader has compromised his or herself in some way or other. The ones who admit that about themselves, and regret it, are the only ones worth following. And at the end of the day we know that we only have One true Leader and Pastor, and He asks us to follow Him, for He alone is the Way and the Truth and the Life.
I am reminded as well that these roles of theirs (on the ACE council or TGC council, etc.) are entirely honorific and, at the end of the day, meaningless. They are meaningless before the Lord. And they ought to be meaningless to us. These are all self-appointed roles in made-up human organizations with a shelf-life of, perhaps, 5-7 more years, tops. Any denomination that actually ministers and stewards the Word and Sacraments truly, however imperfectly, has an exponentially longer shelf-life than these man-made organizations with no meaningful checks-and-balances apart from $$$$, and whether my association with you brings me more or less of it.
dee wrote:
I agree with you. Which is why I am thankful that God has raised up church leaders like you and Deb. Not everyone with a title is a leader, and plenty of people without one are, in GOD’s economy.
Evie wrote:
HUMBLY, of course. (Chuckle chuckle…)
Anon 1 wrote:
With the Brooklyn Bridge AND scrap-value Eiffel Tower on it!
Amy Smith wrote:
Just like Calvary Chapel (NOT a denomination — Papa/Pope Chuck says so Ex Cathedra!)
CJ wouldn’t listen in all likelihood. The point I was trying to make is that there needs to be someone in this crowd who point out that the Emperor has No Cloths. That’s what needs to take place. This crowd is nothing but enablers for business, or personal freindship purposes. What you are seeing is the effects of cronyism. Decisions are being made for business purposes only. Remember Ted this is a business for a lot of people.
TedS. wrote:
pcapastor wrote:
It doesn’t surprise me at all. It’s cowardice and/or blindness. They have no trouble calling out outsiders or even members of their own congregation for real or perceived ‘sins’, but when it comes to their buddies in their peer group they turn a blind eye. They either lack biblical morality or are moral cowards, I’m not sure which.
Bridget wrote:
Yes, exactly and Jeff T said this as well…that’s what I’ve seen firsthand as I have spoken out from within as a Southern Baptist church member all of my 44 year life. But no more.
It makes them not only uncomfortable when you bring up their own, as you saw Bridget, but it ignites their anger, not at the perpetrators of child sex abuse coverups (their buddies, aka good ole boys), but at those of us as advocates exposing the truth. If you dare attempt to bring awareness to this darkness, the powers that be in the SBC will summon the moral outrage to call the police on you…just for blogging about plans to hold an awareness event in public outside the convention center where they are meeting. But these same cowards will not call the police to report the rapists of children in their midst. http://watchkeep.blogspot.com/2013/06/we-are-here-to-protect-kids-our.html
This is a fantastic post by Tamara Rice: This One Time, I Refused to Stop Talking About Abuse http://hopefullyknown.com/2013/10/08/this-one-time-i-refused-to-stop-talking-about-abuse/
@ dee:
“Actually, questioning the godless nature of America is intriguing. From what I can see, the Almighty is invoked by every Tom, Dick and Harry. The real question is “What do we mean by god full?””
+++++++++++++
Ok, I’m glad we can explore this a bit (despite my needling comment & tangentiality[!]).
When I hear “godless” in conjunction with “America”, “our nation”, “our country”, “our society”, it is code for the democratic party.
For those instances when this is not the case, it is code for gay marriage and abortion. Nobody deny it.
Yes, let’s define godless and god-full by sexuality. (sarcasm)
I’m sick of the myopia.
I see a TON of good in people. In my neighborhood, my city, my county, my state, my country, in the world. A bit of travelling makes it very clear that 9 out of 10 people have very good hearts. Want to help a stranger. Are generous, kind, helpful. Are happy to help those in need (when not manipulated into doing it). Value honesty. I could go on.
if this isn’t a good dose of god-full, then what is??
….have to go…. hopefully I can pick up my train of thought later…
@ pcapastor:
Gene Veith is LCMS. My denomination. It’s a crying shame. I hope he’s clueless about this stuff or being used as an unwitting pawn, but unfortunately he’s the provost at Patrick Henry College too so I doubt it. I can’t have much respect for him with that resume. I pretty much ignore everything he says.
You have to consider the way the system works. SBC is not a denomination. It is a voluntary association of churches. There is no need to expect it to act like a denomination. Not the SBC or any state convention or any local association has the authority to “boot” a pastor of a self-supporting local church from anything. The pastor is hired by the church. He/she has been ordained by some local church. He is licensed by the state to legally perform marriages. A Baptist church is not licensed by any convention or association, and it is not a concession or a dealership. It is it’s own thing. The only thing any convention or association can do is tell the church that they don’t want to have anything to do with them any more, and basically to take their toys and go home. This is the Baptist way, and Baptists want it to stay that way. Hence, there are lots and lots of churches that have voluntarily disassociated themselves from the SBC or the state convention or even the local association. Texas being a good example of this trend.
Now, sure. there are some people who are actual employees of some agency of the SBC, and they could be fired, but even so would not loose their ordination. There is no laicization and no individual excommunication through any SBC agency. Jobs can be in danger, as for example military chaplains who need something or other from a missions agency of the SBC to submit to the military to keep their job. But even they do not lose their ordination. Ordained Baptist preachers are not priests in the Catholic sense and cannot be returned to a lay status by the SBC. The conventions and associations simply do not have that power.
One would be apt to hear in any local Baptist church strong opposition of somebody at the convention level trying to tell them what to do, even if they did have a local problem which was not solved, like a bad pastor. In my experience, however, Baptists are past masters at running off the preacher, so if he is still there it is because they want him still there. Any call for the convention to act in an authoritarian manner would not get very far in any Baptist church I have ever been associated with. So SBC, state conventions and local associations have to keep enough people happy to keep the money coming in, bottom line. If they take any action at all, bet on it that they have made a decision which is at least in large part political.
For those who do not know, let me say. Resolutions from the SBC have no power at all. They only mean that of the messengers at that particular convention who happened to vote on that issue, the majority voted in favor of the resolution. The resolution is then released to the press, and that is the end of it. Resolutions are mostly ignored by the people back home in the local church, sometimes after an initial period of embarrassment in front of one’s non-Baptist buddies on the golf course. Remember the resolution to boycott Disney, and if I remember certain products at the grocery store? Good grief.
Leading Baptists, or at least Baptist churches, really is like herding cats. No two churches are very much alike. No two Baptists on the same pew agree on doctrine, music, or the proverbial color of the carpet. There is no catechism, regardless of various statements of belief. And the divorce and abortion statistics show that evangelicals including Baptists are not that much different from everybody else.
Now I personally disagree with the Baptist way, and I personally quit being a Baptist, but that is a different story. My reasons were mostly doctrinal.
Anon 1 wrote:
You got that right, Anon 1. Mahaney talked so much about his legacy, dreaming of being remembered among the greats, despite admitting to never having had an original thought. I think God’s opinion of greatness and CJ Mahaney’s estimation of greatness even exist in the same reality. But hey, as long as he keeps taking his family on expensive vacations, buying them houses, and affording to give them whatever they desire, they’re going to think he’s best “husband, dad and pop-pop ever!!” so that should satisfy his pride for a while, anyway. I’m sure he thinks he thinks the Lord will reward him for all that excessive generosity someday, despite what the bible says, “If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that?” I’ll bet you underneath it all, though, he’s an extremely frustrated man, caught in his own trap. In order to keep him happy, he probably needs constant flattery and excessive attention from his family lest he be found sulking and feeling taken advantage of. Problem is, he knows those around him are doing exactly what they’ve been programmed to do: live as though they are better than others and deserve to be financially supported through the hard work and effort of people with jobs. And if someone has a problem with anything they say or do, they’ll just ignore them or think of themselves as saints being persecuted, and take another swig of kool-aid in order to keep reality at bay…in the pools, lagoons and spas of Disney’s Stormalong Bay, that is!
@ Nancy:
Nancy, You have explained it well. The only reason the SBC still exists is because churches send money…for what they believe are missions. Of course it mostly pays high salaries to the entity bosses and their bureaucrats nowadays. Or, it goes to plant churches for the YRR.
There have been some local associations that have told certain churches to take a hike. But what they are really saying is we don’t want your money. They have done it over homosexuality and women preachers. To date, I have not seen one do it over the issue of protecting pedophiles. The trustees of most seminaries are made up, for the most part, pastors or well heeled lay folk who can raise money. They are pretty much out of their league when it comes to a clever seminary president.
But they are seeing more churches designate funds. Some are even designating away from the seminaries to state colleges. The irony is the mega churches typically pay in a much lower percentage than smaller churches. Yet, the mega church pastors are the ones on stage, elected as President, etc.
A great book to show the problems with the entities and it’s Trustee system is Mary Kinney Branson’s, Spending God’s Money. She was there.
For me, it boils down to the pew sitter. That is where the money and the guru worship comes from. These charlatans could not exist if they insisted on accountability. Insist on the vote and seeing a detailed quarterly budget. It is not a guarantee but it is a start. Why do people think they have to check their brains at the door to a few men to attend church?
@ Evie:
Evie, I don’t think he is rich enough to continue supporting his daughter’s husbands forever. In fact, I think he is trying to make provision for them since they don’t have the SGM gravy train anymore and they need an actual seminary education to be considered pastors outside the SGM bubble world. Word on the street here is that Al Mohler is helping at least one of his son in laws through SBTS. How much you wanna bet that son in law ends up a pastor of high paying SBC church?
I mean if Baptists at Lifeway can hire the Presbyterian, Barnabas Piper, to be their media content strategist then why not a shepherding cult trained young pastor? (Barnabas left the “Reformed” Baptist church over Baptism. Go figure. But he is happy to take the SBC’s Lifeway high profile and high paying job. See that is how it works in Christiandumb)
elastigirl wrote:
I do. And the reason why is because when I think of “godless” I think of those who claim God but seem to be promoting a God that looks more like the Evil one by protecting child molesters, hating women or anyone not like them. That to me is godlessness. I always think of that passage where it says they have a ‘form of godliness but no power of the Holy Spirit”. It is really sort of a weird thing to say because Muslims can say one is “godless” if they are not Muslims. (infidels)
I am one of the few that actually is grateful for those self determined Deists who founded our country. They got some stuff wrong (slavery) but they got a lot right and right in a way that the wrong stuff had to be dealt with. We were founded in a way that “freedom of religion” did not mean we acted like the Puritans and thought everyone should be like us or burn. Personally, I think the Deists had guys like Crowmwell, the King, Calvin, and others in mind….they understood the ramifications of a church/state.
I really think if more folks studied history, they would FEAR any religion being in power whether left or right. Both are scary. Christians are the ones who are to be tolerant yet doing the right things such as nursing the sick, curing cancer, inventing things that better life, fighting for justice for the oppressed, etc. Christians should love freedom and want it for others even if they don’t believe like them. Many just have gotten it backwards.
Evie wrote:
Reminds me of what was said of a local fanboy wanna-be author:
“He doesn’t want to write. He wants to Have Written(TM).”
i.e. wanting to be a Big Name Author without actually doing the work of writing anything.
P.S. Celebrity: Someone who is famous entirely for Being Famous.
Anon 1 wrote:
More often, they only FEAR a religion being in power if it isn’t THEIR religion.
“HERE AHURA-MAZDA, THERE AHRIMAN!”
@ Anon 1:
my brain is overloaded with data from lots ‘o life at the moment, so may not be totally tracking….
in referring to “godless” & “our nation” / “our society”, I mean when I hear people in Christian culture saying it, as an indictment on our nation / our society.
I completely agree with you that protecting child molesters, hating women or anyone not like them absolutely fits a logical definition of “god less”.
To me, the colloquial “godless” seems to devolve into politics.
elastigirl wrote:
Sekshul stuff has always been THE LITMUS test and watershed issue in fundagelicalism.
Anon 1 wrote:
Not according to Rick Joyner, a prominent fundagelical mega-preacher based in South Carolina. He has called for a military coup by godly military officers as the only hope of saving our Republic from a slide into godless socialism. One vid on You Tube of him advocating the same has been taken down by MorningStar ministries claiming a copyright infringement.
Muff Potter wrote:
First public call for a Military Coup…
@ Muff Potter:
Muff, I believe guys like Joyner are as dangerous as Obama whom I view as one of the religious left. I am sick of all of them. I am sick of all the tyrants who know what is best for me as I am too ignorant or hateful to care about others in their estimation. I think both sides get it very wrong. This micromanagement of our lives is getting old but I fear it is the new normal both in government and at church.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Hahaha exactly HUG, and which is why on Twitter, all you see Charles Joseph and Carolyn Mahaney doing is tweeting the quotes of others – which their daughter Janelle spends hours on everyday dressing up in fancy fonts. Guess they think sharing someone else’s intellectual property makes them appear as though they own it – oh, and I guess they *DO* because *THEY SELL IT* on their Girl Talk Blog! And I ask, why not just get a job? Oh, whoops, because being a Mom & a Wife & a Homemaker is just so totally fulfilling and demanding that it’s the ONLY thing a woman should aspire to, right?
Hester wrote:
I like Veith’s writings, especially his Spirituality of the Cross and God at Work. But I was very surprised to learn that he was on the AEC Council and hasn’t said peep about this.
@ Dr. Fundystan:
If I’m not mistaken Veith’s name has also come up connected to stuff about classical education and Doug Wilson. I can’t remember how at the moment. I need to look into this some more.
Anon 1 wrote:
At least one? For the record, Al Mohler has only one son-in-law (and only one daughter). I’ve always thought for someone who admonishes young people who don’t marry early and pop out as many babies as nature will allow, his own quiver isn’t very full (2 children total). Of course, etiquette would ordinarily dictate not opining on someone else’s family planning choices, but in this case Al wants to tell everyone else how to live, so what’s good for the goose, etc.
@ notastepfordsheep:
Sorry was not more clear, I meant Al was helping CJ’s son in law.
@ Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist:
@ Hester:
Veith manages to get Piper piping in the centerfold of World magazine about every other month.
Bridget wrote:
World….centerfold…. too funny!
Anon 1 wrote:
Oh… okay. Sorry. Mohler’s son-in-law isn’t a seminary student either.
@ Anon 1:
Agreed. Why do we keep making the same mistakes over and over? Does Joyner not remember Cromwell or does he believe that the lessons of the past do not apply to him? The same goes for the radical left when they refuse to review the legacy of misery and horror rooted in Marx & Lenin.
I believe that we can learn from our mistakes and change, that we can become adult children of the Almighty who no longer need to be micro managed. Perfection? Utopia? No, that’s a fool’s errand to be sure. But we do have the power to restrain the worst abuses.
@ Bridget:
Meaning what, exactly? I don’t read World so I wouldn’t know. Does this mean he upsets Piper or he gets him space in the magazine? Forgive my ignorance and dullness. 🙁
@ Hester:
They are friends. Veith promotes Piper. I was being snarky. World does point to some good things that are going on, but when the magazine falls open and Piper is reiterating his views on tornadoes, yet again, it makes me want to burn the thing.
@ Beth:
Will all due respect, Beth:
What it “communicates” is not a primary concern among Mohlerites. How can reformed theological perfection be called into question by lesser Christians and apostates?
I say GOD IS …Mohler ISN’T
@ Anon 1:
I’m afraid of how right I think you are about this. Back in the nineties after spending some time caught up in the Joyner prophecies and the ‘spirit’ manifestations of ‘renewal’ I fought it and that was when I saw the control involved and realized that the freedom they spoke of was no more freedom than I had in my IFB and Calvinist upbringing. One Sunday night service when a renewal evangelist speaking at our church literally taped a line down the center of the platform for those who were going have faith in the promised land of this ‘river of god’ and obey the leading of our pastor into it to come up and stand on that side of the tape. I and only about two others refused. He said that we would die by the plagues in the wilderness just as the Israelites did.
I just want to point out that many of the others were not necessarily caught up in the movement, they just were too afraid not to join the majority and stand out as trouble maker.
Just on Southeastern’s website, and the banner for the collegiate conference on the main page no longer has Mahaney as a speaker. The speaker roster has changed a bit – wonder what happened?
@ Hello: Hello!
Thanks for letting us know about the change in the speaker line-up. Very interesting…
@ Deb:
Like Larry T disappeared from the SGM pastors conference speakers line-up a couple years back?