Here is the video from the part in Furtick's sermon in which he comments on his house. Look at his demeanor. Does this guy look comfortable? And people give money to support this nonsense?
Special thanks to our good friend Tom Rich, FBC Jax Watchdog, who stood up to a rich pastor, took it on the chin, and won! So, how long do you think this video will be up before Furtick calls in the attorneys? The timer is set…
Furtick is Suffering for Jesus: Enduring the Questions of a Reporter About His Mansion from FBCJax Watchdog on Vimeo.
PT Barnum had it right.
There's a sucker born every minute.
And….
Without promotion something terrible happens… Nothing!
Here is waht two commenters said about Tom Rich's post. The first is tongue in cheek and informative.
Steven Furtick has been suffering since 2005. That was the year he came to Charlotte to plant a church amongst all the unchurched folk.
Of course, he and Holly needed to have a house. They were 25 years old. No cozy bungalow would do. No, they bought a brand new 2,100 square foot house for $190,000.
Four years and two children later, it was time to look for another home. Another new home. This one had 3,100 square feet and cost $362,000.
It's been a rough, rough road for the Furticks through these years of church planting. This time, they're going all out with 16,000 square feet costing some $1.4 M per the building permit. That's on top of the 19 acres worth $1.6M.
Y'all need to have some Christian compassion for the Furticks!!!!
Second comment: This poor person has been sucked in. Shame on Furtick. (Note the capital "H" in He.)
I am a member of Elevation and I thank God for His favor on Pastor Steven. Like Pastor always says…FAVOR AIN'T FAIR!!!
Don't hate on him, rejoice for the blessing of God on His Life!Like Pastor said 3 weeks ago, when "He" is blessed, that blessing flows to us all!
We join with Tom in being thankful that investigative reporters are doing what the church refuses to do. In fact, rumor has it that some SBC leaders are desperately trying to justify Furtick's lifestyle. You do know that he is SBC?
PS: Do you really think books paid for this?
Growing up, there was a Lutheran church in my neighborhood with a parsonage across the street. The church members were always asking the pastor if they could fix up the house for him or give him nice things. His response never changed. “My needs have been met and I do not need more. Give to those whose needs have not beeen first.” Perhaps some “pastors” could learn from him and say “My needs have been met and I do not need more.”
I believe it is normal for people to question how their money is spent – we have all kinds of blogs etc dedicated to holding Congress accountable because of their lavish and exempt lifestyles on the backs of the American tax payer. A pastor is not so different. The local church is a cooperative, with certain God-given mandates for the use of money. It should seem neither divisive nor inappropriate for church members to wonder how a single minister is able to live in a $3M home and how much money has been given to feed the poor, visit the sick, minister to the disenfranchised, etc.
My favorite part of the video: “…it’s not THAT great of a house…”
That would have been a perfect line for Ed Young: “…it’s not THAT great of a jet airplane…”
You know Furtick has to be very, very worried when he is addressing the news report and the investigative reporter from the pulpit even before the story is out. He is trying to get his first licks in at the reporter to cast him as one of the “haters”.
Furtick says this reporter is someone who “wants to make our church look bad”, and “…a guy who might not like us…”
Furtick even implies the reporter is not going to be telling the truth. In the video he says that people say “stuff that’s not true…”
This is how megachurch pastors respond to investigative reporters of credible news agencies who dare to question and criticize: they become the enemy, they are “haters”. I’ve seen it done to Brett Shipp in Dallas, I’ve seen it done to Jeff Brumley here in Jacksonville.
But I don’t see this as being anything other than a minor bump in the road for Furtick. I questioned a land gift and a huge house of my own pastor, and it made not a difference. Ed Young survived the reporting of his wealth and oppulence by Brett Shipp. People IN the church don’t care. In fact, the big money givers in the church WANT their pastor to be one of them, so they don’t mind their man of God having a big house and lots of money.
I will point you to ONE pastor whose large house and questionable land gift got him in trouble and caused him to lose his job: Google “Frank Harbor and FBC Colleyville Texas” and you’ll read of the hot water this young and rising start in the SBC (SWBTS grad) got into when his church got wind of his house and a land gift. This occurred back in the 2006/2007 time frame. Frank Harber was an SBC darling in the 1990’s and early 00’s, and hasn’t been heard from since.
@ Mandy:
Wow, Mandy, that is a great example. I personally believe that what we see in churches today is a direct result of our seminary model – instead of something like an apprenticeship where young men are trained up to minister in their own church, they go off to a foreign land to learn theory out of books and then go to whatever ministry opportunity will feed their desires. I am not surprised that Furtick attended SBTS, because this has been their seminary model forever.
16000 sq ft on all that acreage (with view blocks all around the property) = HUMBLE Little Cottage (and did I mention HUMBLE?)
Tom R wrote:
HUMBLY, of course.
People IN the church don’t care. In fact, the big money givers in the church WANT their pastor to be one of them, so they don’t mind their man of God having a big house and lots of money.
This seems to ease the minds of those with money; parishioner and pastor alike. They can affirm each other’s money making and spending habits.
It’s interesting the way Furtick and Driscoll are so “proud” of their exploits too. After all, they feel so good and upright about what they are doing that they are hiding their assets in trusts which don’t bear their own names. Surely they are wise and honorable in their own sight! Just not openely before men . . . mere men (parishioners) simply wouldn’t understand the position that Furtick, Driscoll, and Young find themselves in . . . of having to hide their assets from the world — tish, tish!
@ Bridget:
I messed up the quotes in that first paragraph . . . it is quoted from Tom R.
“People IN the church don’t care. In fact, the big money givers in the church WANT their pastor to be one of them, so they don’t mind their man of God having a big house and lots of money.”
This is VERY true. And they like having a sort of celebrity as a pastor. Even those who are not wealthy in the church are proud to help make the pastor wealthy.
There is a psychology here that really needs to be studied. A sort of “living your spiritual life through someone else” and thinking that makes you more pious. There are implications for this far beyond these churches. Who else would they blindly follow and give money too if it is this obvious and they cannot see it?
That second comment from Tom’s blog is a perfect example. I heard stuff like that all the time. I had a guy tell me not long ago he loves giving money to Chuck Swindoll and only wants a ride in his Bentley.
Furtick as Tetzel?
Stay out of Charlotte. Stick with the harlots in Raleigh. We love our Pastor and we will stand up for him against this persecution. I am sick and tired of hate. You sicken me. SO WHAT..a big house…WHO CARES?? We are thankful for the humble servant that Pastor Steven is and you could take some lessons from him Sister. We ARE a Move of God not just a church! We will be starting a church soon in Raleigh and when we do, you will see the Holy Ghost change that city. Get a life and get a job and get out of your mommas basement and go save a soul. And quit hating on our Pastor who is saving souls!
Amassing wealth is condemned over and over again in the Bible. If there are any of God’s children without freedom, clothing, food and water, Jesus said that if we don’t take care of their needs, we will not be in heaven. So unless Furtick makes that house a place to house the neediest, it will be a barrier to his eternal success.
I was going to put this in the previous posting, but it fits equally well here, since tithing is the big guilt trip used to rake in the money that ‘ministers’ then use to live in lavish splendor, which just happens to be completely contrary to the OT purpose of the tithes anyway.
I think the whole 10% tithing ‘requirement’ as biblically based is completely bogus and is used by shameless ministers to extort money out of their sheep.
Trust in the Lord…But Check Out the Church, Wall Street Journal, May 5, 2012, 10:51
Of the $569 billion that churchgoers and others are expected to donate to Christian causes this year world-wide, about 6%, $35 billion, will end up in the hands of money launderers, embezzlers, tax evaders or unscrupulous ministers living too high on the hog, according to the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary in South Hamilton, Mass.
Tithes in the OT were never required to be paid in money (or other mediums of exchange such as gold and silver, etc.). Instead, they were paid in produce that could be stored for the use of the needy, times of famine, and for the priestly Levite class (who were given no land so were dependent on the tithes of those tribes with land for survival (nothing about giving the priests palaces, gold plated chariots, etc. though), and also for some governmental-type functions. Given that charitable purposes were one of the primary uses of the tithe in a time when there were no other sources of aid for the needy, I ought to be able to deduct my taxes and charitable donations from any ‘tithe’.
Moreover, tithing in the OT was a highly complex system of various amounts at various times in a world where religion was involved in both governmental functions as well as social services. Like so many of the OT laws, they have no application in today’s world – so why do some choose these as operative but not passages prohibiting eating pork, etc?
Two of the most prominent passages used to justify tithing are Leviticus 27: 30 “All tithes from the land, whether the seed from the ground or the fruit from the tree, are the Lord’s; they are holy to the Lord.” And Leviticus 27:32 “All tithes of herd and flock, every tenth one that passes under the shepherd’s staff, shall be holy to the Lord.”
Note first of all, that these tithes are Holy to the Lord, NOT to the minister. Second, if I do follow this as being applicable today, then I do promise to give a tenth of all the animals I raise and a tenth of what I grow in my garden to your favorite megachurch.
These ministers are pretty sharp, though, they often respond by citing Genesis 14.13-23, where Abraham, before there was any Mosaic Code, gave a tenth of the war spoils to Melchizedek, the king of Salem after Abraham’s defeat of defeat of Chedorlaomer at Hobah. This was a one-off event, though, not an ongoing requirement. Moreover, it was offered by Abraham of his own free will, not by any requirement. Finally, if I give in and agree to follow this as being applicable today, I promise to give a tenth of all my war spoils to your favorite megachurch.
Let me conclude by what the New Testament says specifically about giving to the church:
1 Corinthians 16:2
On the first day of every week, each of you is to put aside and save whatever extra you earn, so that collections need not be taken when I come.
2 Corinthians 9:7
Each of you must give as you have made up your mind, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
‘Nuff said.
Jeremiah sai: My prophets prophesy falsely, my priests are corrupt, and my people love to have it so. This would not occur without a corrupt psychic bond between “great leaders (can I say cultic?) and their followers.” In situations like this, and many other similar ones that I have been exposed to over 40 years in evangelicalism, there is an illicit bond, an negotiated psychic corruption that is at works. It goes like this: We will let you be famous/rich, never criticize you (my leader), in exchange for fame, success and significance you give me as being part of this great enterprise.” It is all about bankrupt identity psychology. We will let you be corrupt, as long as you deliver status for us. (Fame, fasting growing church, biggest church in town, etc.)
Tom R wrote:
ROFL.
Bill Rogers wrote:
I am assuming that this is a joke. If so, it is hysterical. If not, you have done more to prove my point than you know.
From the Furtick hymnal:
O Lord, won’t you buy me a Mercedes Benz, all my friends drive Porches I must make a-mends…..
Bill Rogers wrote:
Pot calling the kettle black?
It is offensive, a likely a sin, to say that Furtick is being persecuted!!!! With his income and accouterments, he is anything but persecuted. And, from previous postings in other places on the web, it is more likely that Furtick is the persecuTOR, but Bill Rogers probably does not know about that.
Surely the second comment you quoted is also ‘tongue in cheek’! LOL.
anonymous wrote:
More like a Furtick Fanboy defending HIS Personal LOORD and Savior.
I got a similar reaction from Objectivists on another blog when I uttered blasphemey against Ayn Rand.
The church I left had built 3 sanctuaries in less than 10 years as according to the pastor to take care of the continued growth. I found it funny that the church choose to build new buildings rather than go to multiple services. I really started to question the direction of the church when I discovered that the last sanctuary built only added less than 200 seats according to the fire marshal seating requirements. I scratched my head and asked why would we build a brand new building (At a cost of over 2 million dollars) to only add 200 seats when the sanctuary we were in was never filled to capacity. It all became crystal clear when I learned from an ex staff member of the church that the Pastor contracted the construction himself and paid himself a hefty contractor fee for each of the new construction projects on the grounds. This was pay over and above his salary, which he collected at the same time while much of the work on the building was done by church volunteers. Bye the way, he dissolved his board of directors several years earlier, because several on the board disagreed with what he was practicing.
Bill Rogers wrote:
Bill,
Why do these discussions by church fans eventually devolve along the lines of a blog owner sitting in their parent’s basement? At least you didn’t put in the added elements of eating Cheetos and lounging in one’s underwear!
I assume you attend Elevation. How about using completely thought out paragraphs to explain your experiences?
What you’ve written so far doesn’t help Furtick’s cause at all.
Playing the “hate” card, another last refuge of a scoundrel. Do explain why you’re doing what you are doing, claim all your critics are “haters”, they hate you, therefore they hate the Gospel, therefore they hate Jesus too. One flaw, you are not Jesus – you are accountable to your congregation and to Jesus.
Bill Rogers wrote:
So you’re a ‘M’ove of God and not a church. Not sure what that means, since Jesus’ bride is the Church. I don’t recall that Jesus said anything about a ‘M’ove of God in the 21st century that would usurp His Church. But if you want to be a “Move of God” . . . well, I guess that makes you special and important.
PS – “Your Pastor” is saving no one unless, of couse, he is also claiming to be Jesus in the flesh.
PSS – It is interesting how much the followers of Steven Furtick use the word “hate.” I guess they took lessons from his video?
Sincerely,
Not a ‘hater’ of Steven Furtick
@ Bill Rogers:
Not sure whether your comment is sincere, but it's probably just a matter of time before Furtick plants a church here in the Raleigh area. After all, he spoke at Advance the Church three years ago with his good buddy J.D. Greear, who has satellite churches on almost every corner.
http://www.jdgreear.com/my_weblog/2010/10/coming-to-summit%E2%80%99s-advance-the-church-regional-steven-furtick.html
Here is what J.D. Greear wrote of his good buddy Furtick:
@ Raymond:
Just curious, do you know who/what entity now owns all the land/properties/assets that were purchased?
@ Bridget:
The Pastor
@ Bridget:
That’s how crazy this is Bridget. He is paying himself to build his church, built with mostly free labor, with money collected from those providing the free labor. Now you tell me that’s not crazy.
@ Bill Rogers:
The world according to Bill:
1. Who we are:
We’re God Hisself, and specifically the Holy Ghost
As well as being God, we are humble.
The world persecutes anything to do with God.
God can have anything he wants, including Big Houses.
We save souls because we are God.
We will soon be sweeping into your town and changing everylittlething.
2. Who you are:
You hate God (questioning his/our motives).
You are a harlot (wuzzat?)
You a dirty nerd in momma’s basement.
You have no life.
You don’t work.
You make us sick.
Will, I mean, Bill Rogers is a very funny man.
Anon 1 wrote:
Everyone needs something to worship, whether it’s a golden calf, a political party, Steven Furtick, doctrinal beliefs, etc. People are more drawn to a physical and tangible thing to put their faith in because it is easier and requires nothing of them but complete submission to the “god” they created. Giving money, becoming a yes-man, not reporting child molestation are all easier to do then delve into the mysteries of following God in an authentic way. So as long as man is fallen, we will always have celebrities turned demi gods and we will always have people worshiping them.
@ Bill Rogers:
i see he’s switched on, with new batteries. who squeezed his tummy?
Bill Rogers wrote:
Isn’t this the exact defense raised by Mike Warnke’s fanboys when Cornerstone exposed Warnke as a complete FRAUD? “He $aved lot$ of $oul$! How many $oul$ have YOU $saved? Huh? Huh? Huh?”
Except Warnke’s fanboys invoked Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory (orchestrated and puppetmastered by SATAN) in addition to the above, accusing Cornerstone of being Satanists.
P.S. What is a Soul(TM)? Does it have anything to do with people, or only with notches on your Bible? Will you abuse someone to death so that You Will Have Saved his Soul, as Mark Twain’s Inquisitor brags in Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court”?
Raymond wrote:
Nice Racket. Straight out of Plunkett of Tammany Hall — “I Seed My Opportunities and Took ‘Em.” Except with long prayers in Christianese.
@ Raymond:
That is ugly! But it makes me wonder about the likes of Furtick, Driscoll, Young, and MacDonald. Where do all the assets go if these churches cease to exist? Are the people in the pews paying attention to what/who they are giving their time and money to?
@ Patrice:
So was the rant from Bill a curse, or some type of well-disguised blessing that one is supposed to decipher via secret codes from his words?
@ Raymond:
Are you reluctant to name this entity? (And I understand that you very well may be, with good reason.)
Bridget wrote:
We got any Bible Code Gnostics who could Enlighten us?
Bill Rogers wrote:
“I have always wanted to have a neighbor just like you,
I’ve always wanted to live in a neighborhood with you.”
@ Bridget:
My apologize!!! I left out the word “just” in your statement:
“We ARE a Move of God not just a church!” Bill Rogers
Thankfully, Jesus doesn’t look at his Bride as “just” a “c”hurch. 🙂
JeffT wrote:
Jeff, I think within the context that was specifically for the Jerusalem Body which was being persecuted.
Of course Bill’s comment was a wind-up. I mean, come on, guys; surely you’ve counted the cliches in it?
Benny Hinn brags that he doesn’t get a salary from his “ministry,” the sale of his “books” provide for he needs. What he doesn’t tell you is his “books” are purchased by the “ministry” and given away Or sold) at his events.
There is no justification for a house of that size.
Bill,
You are not helping Furtick at all. But you are representative of what I would expect from that place.
And….Yahweh does not “move” that way. That would be the whole point.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Actually Nick, That is pretty typical. Many really do think like that and will defend the charlatan to the death. It is very sad.
Bill Rogers wrote:
Oooooooo. Doesn’t this just ooze “Love thy neighbor?” (Sarcasm) Move of God, indeed!
@ Deb:
Speaking gigs, conference fees, books to sell. Does not surprise me Greear is tapping a new tribal market as the economy shrinks. That income stream is important to them.
@ JeffT:
Jeff – some good ones in there. A “church” founder/CEO I know of here in Scotland is fond of soliciting tithes using that passage from Genesis 14 – to wit, “tithing came before the Law”. Tellingly, that same phrase is frequently repeated by his followers or other regulars in his following. I’ve yet to hear, to this day, an explanation from any of them as to how originating before the Law makes it a law.
Just as tellingly, ISTM, the CEO in question hasn’t built any other of the practices originating before the Law into his organisation. He does not instruct his followers to keep the seventh day holy, to build altars to the Lord or to offer their first-born sons as burnt offerings, for instance.
@ Anon 1:
Well, quite. If “Bill Rogers” (or whatever his/her real name is) is one of the souls Mr Furtick has “saved”, it doesn’t say much for the efficacy of Furtick’s substitutionary death on the cross.
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Chuck Missler will be glad to set you straight (for a price of course) on Bible codes and how they impact God’s will for your life in these perilous end-times. And of course how the Vatican is in league with the devil to bring back the nephilim via UFOs.
I hesitate to bring this up, but here goes. We are disgusted and appalled at some of the financial shenanigans of some of these new church starts. Rightly so. But, right here where I live we have a few downtown First Church of Something, moderate and mainline all, who have lots of older and established families with lots and lots of money, and the churches end up with lots of money.
How do I know? I used to work with a fellow from a with-money family who told me how his downtown church raised money and roughly how much they got. He was one of the money raisers. Briefly, the church decided how much money each should give and sent out some similarly well-off peers to confront and collect. Did they get the money? Fellow said they did.
So, maybe what these newbies are doing is nothing new at all. Maybe they are just more visible because they don’t know how to cover up as well, and think that being brash is virtuous, and can’t keep their mouths shut.
We as a nation have incentives for this in the tax code, of course. I think that this will not go away. It is right to cry foul, but I am not holding my breath.
Wow. Good Christian behavior = calling two married Christian women harlots because they disagree with your pastor. That word has a cargo bay’s worth of spiritual and physical connotations, BTW.
I love how this commenter capitalized Furtick’s personal pronoun as if it were referring to God. I assume this was an abortive attempt at punning.
@ Dee & Deb:
Look on the bright side. By calling you harlots Bill’s provided you with a new entry for your What the World Is Saying About TWW list.
Muff Potter wrote:
Sooper Sekrit Bible Codes (KJV, of course)?
Vatican/Jesuit/UFO/Nephilim Breeders?
That’s the problem with Conspiracy Theory these days: Nothing Original.
I wanna hear some real creative Conspiracy Crapola for once. Deros shining their Telaug Rays up from inside the Hollow Earth! Communist Gangster Computer Gods on the Dark Side of the Moon Parroting Puppet Gangster Assassins through Frankenstein Earphone Radio Controls!
Anon 1 wrote:
Didn’t Elijah say something similar to the prophets of Baal-Melkart?
“Maybe Baal is sleeping! Or taking a trip! Or taking a dump or something!”
An Attorney wrote:
Excellent! True!
Raymond wrote:
It never ceases to amaze me how people game the system. And then pretend they are “spiritual” leaders.
Randall Slack wrote:
Love it. Hint: And what if a certain pastor did not sell many books and still contends that they pay for his lifestyle?
It’s interesting to read these posts and sense the same emotion on almost every one: ENVY!
One, Elevation is one of the largest Churches and fastest growing churches in America: FACT!
Two, Elevation has given away over 10 million dollars to the community: LOVE IN ACTION!!
Three, Elevation is recognized as the “Ruth Chris” of Churches in our area. You will not get a worn out sermon or a sloppy hymn here, it is gourmet gospel. The Lost come in and are blown away by the lights and sound and professionalism of the gospel presentation.
When God rocked a rainbow in the sky, it had a “wow” factor.
So go back to your frozen chosen, little “tip toe thru the tulips” church, we like our gospel “rocked out” and the proof is in the puddin baby, we are top 100 in fastest growing and largest churches in the USA, to God be the glory!
16,000 square foot house ain’t nothing to what is waiting on the other side!!!
@ Fred Rogers: Laugh of the day. “It’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood.”
No kidding. I’m pretty sure Paul Dohse is still dealing with a limited YouTube account because of the strike against him for posting Harvest Bible’s video.
These guys are a bunch of weenie wops.
Note to Furtick Fan Club: Before suing, do it the biblical way and ask Rich to remove the video. There is a verse in the Bible about suing. It doesn’t always go well if you do sue. Just ask my pastor and former church who had to fork out far more than $60K for a frivolous lawsuit they lost.
Randall Slack wrote:
As I said on a prior thread:
I’m in a well paid profession, and live in an area where real estate is pricier than where Furtick is. Here’s my real estate history:
Age 34: 1000 sq ft, $90,000. Nine years, boomed to $120,000, crashed to $60,000.
Age 43: 1200 sq ft, $105,000. Sixteen years & counting, boomed to $450,000, crashed to $180,000.
And I have learned from experience that 1000 sq ft is the maximum size I can keep cleaned and maintained. For 16,000 sq ft, Furtick will need at least half a dozen SERVANTS just to keep the house up. (Not counting more SERVANTS to maintain the grounds.)
Bridget wrote:
This guy needs to start a twitter account. I will subscribe immediately. He is funnier than the Dowager Countess.
Ok, one more thing. I have a passel of kiddos and thought my house was quite large. Furtick’s house is 4 times the size of ours. I don’t know how many kids Furtick has, but in my large home, the kids can be upstairs or on the other side of the house and I can’t hear them. Furtick’s kids can have a party and invite the whole neighborhood without their parents even knowing it. That’s a crazy big house.
Bill Rogers wrote:
I beg you: Start a twitter account. i will sign up immediately. You are too funny.
Bill Rogers wrote:
Are we part of the mass of harlots in Raleigh?
JeffT wrote:
…………………
Yes, old Janis had it right.
Bill Rogers wrote:
Well, I guess when people came to Jesus, the left still lost. He didn’t need a spectacular light show and professionalism to present the Gospel!
Folks,
I think Bill Rogers punked us all good. Too funny!
Bill Rogers wrote:
Seriously? The same gospel that was conceived in a unwed mother? The same gospel that was born in a barn full of animals? The same gospel that hung naked and bleeding on a cross? I hardly think Jesus would recognize your version. To each his own. But, envious? No.
Julie Anne
Tom took on Ed Young Jr when he tried that. Guess who won? Never, ever mess with Tom.
Bridget wrote:
He’s not reluctant. He probably just missed your comment. I covered the story a couple o times. It’s Eagle Heights Church in Hammond, Louisiana. Pastor is Kevin Dunn. Pastor Eric Starkey is the former assistant pastor who has also shared his experiences on his blog. Raymond confronted the pastor about improper permitting on sewage pipes they were putting in (the permit would have cost around $10K if memory serves) and then mysteriously, Raymond was labeled divisive and his wife was told to divorce him. The ultimate cost of spiritual abuse = destroyed marriage.
dee wrote:
Love it. He had me going. Well played, sir.
dee wrote:
You’re right, Dee, and they are perfect size – less than 140 characters. Come on, Bill. I’ll follow, too, and retweet 🙂
Nancy wrote:
Senator Chuck Grassley (R Iowa) tried to investigate faith hucksters & revamp the 501-c3 exemption laws in the tax code but to no avail. He hails from the midwest Bible belt itself and quickly realized that if he did not cease and desist, he wouldn’t see dog-catcher at the next election cycle.
@ Bill Rogers:
If that does not just about say it all. Charlotte people gave an extra 10 million to the church, took it off their taxes, and then gave it back to Charlotte. Really? I told you that area was packed out with financially sophisticated people.
They preach “gourmet gospel” What does one do to the gospel to improve it to the gourmet status? Easy. Found it in my cookbook. You sauce it down with sauce.
The lost are blown away with lights, sound and professionalism? Really? And what are they then saved from?
The next time you do a post about John Piper and Mark Driscoll or some other gender complementarian attempting to define what “biblical womanhood” is, or expressing disdain that women learn or use karate, or saying that only men are warriors, you might want to link to this:
Onna-bugeisha, Japanese Female Warriors
😆
@ Bill Rogers:
Are you any relation to Buck? How is Twiki doing? 😆
I can’t tell if you are trolling, doing a variation of Poe’ing (Poe defined), or if you are serious. If you are Poe’ing, well played, sir.
So… Furtick’s church gives away ten million, but he keeps ten million, or X million or X hundreds of thousands, for himself? Or lives in a 16,000 sq ft home? I’d sign up for that.
I’d totally work for a place where I get to give away other people’s money (tithes), get called generous from that, and still get to live in a big, nice house.
You said,
I’m kind of half Christian, half agnostic these days and have decided to stay out of church for I don’t know how long, because many Christians make me want to hurl these days, so I can assure you, I am not envious of your church.
I bet your church, as is the case with most evangelical and SBC churches, harps on the needs of married couples with children, but ignores all the never married adults who are over the age of 30, and the widows, and the divorced. I’d rather not attend that type of church.
But maybe this was all comedy on your part. It’s hard to tell.
Bridget wrote:
Bill Rogers, being a good Christian man, loves his enemies so it must be a well-disguised blessing. It’s a complex cypher, though, which shows that he must be at least as smart as Mohler.
I am recording the comment so I can play it backwards. I’ll let you know what it reveals.
Who is his set designer?
Those vertical green carnival ride lights in the background are so distracting – they make one dizzy
(or hypnotized – just look at the fawning amen-chorus on the front rows!).
@ Daisy:
Mr. Piper & Mr. Driscoll are probably unaware that such a thing even existed. Even if they were, they’d probably just dismiss it as typical of any depraved heathenish culture of old. Besides, they were probably lesbians anyway, which further justifies the Almighty’s sovereign decree that they burn forever without mercy.
Nancy wrote:
Having too much money.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Maybe in one of Furtick’s seven toilets . . .
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
You mean his congregants are saved from having heavy wallets, so that they don’t get weighed down? That is very thoughtful of the preacher to spare them of lower back pains toting around all that extra money.
*stroking beard thoughtfully, mulling this over*
Seriously, I don’t have a beard. Not on days I shave, anyway. 😆
Bridget wrote:
Furtick should take interior design tips from preacher Joyce Meyer, who has gilded toilets (at least one source I saw somewhere said it was gilded). This blog covered that story, as well as a few other sites.
Update on Joyce Meyer’s $23,000 “Commode”
@ Bill Rogers:
Well, if you’re not kidding as some above are suggesting – and I wish I could be that sanguine, as some CCM-onlyers really do talk like this and mean it – at least you admit that people only come for the bling and the beats.
But then again, if this really is just about size, my instrument is the size of a small building. Yours need amps and speakers to even come close. 😉
@ Bill Rogers:
Wow. Talk about an exercise in missing the point. Sir, I do not envy you. I thank God I am no longer involved in a church very similar to yours. Envy? No. I pity you. You have bought the con and don’t even see how ridiculous you sound. I would advise you, for your own sake, to stop posting. Every post exposes more of the bankruptcy of your position. The preaching of the Gospel is not a competition to see who can do it with the best lights and showmanship…..
@ Jeannette Altes:
Okay – if Bill Rogers is punking us…very well played. In my experience in my former church, he sounded very authentic…. 😉
Julie Anne wrote:
Oh! Yes. I remember that story. I didn’t realize it was the same event. I’m glad I asked about who controls the assets.
This pastor is really reeking havoc. He’s into spiritual abuse, financial abuse, marital break-ups. He’s trying hard to keep things hidden and doesn’t care what he does to keep it under wraps. Sounds like the Mafia to me.
Daisy wrote:
Just like Baba Saddam’s?
Maybe Furtick’s building a house of/for God. Let’s see…16k sq. ft. would be approx. a half dozen temples that Solomon built for God. Bigger might be better?
Because of illness, my family of 5 had to live in a 250 sq. ft. camper for several years. It took a dose of daily gratefulness, contentment and thankfulness to do it. Gave us perspective that we wouldn’t trade for anything.
I am not a Troll. I am a part of a Move of God with Carolina Panthers, Charlotte Bobcats, CEO’s, Bankers, and Seminary professors. Why are we all a part of Elevation? Because we love Winners! Honestly, we have cleaned out several Churches in our area because they are BORING! Boring music, boring preaching, boring environments. I say things that YOU know are true. People are not looking for doctrine, they are looking for an experience. They vote with their feet! YOU believe in “Election”, but they are voting for us! We do not believe in going verse by verse, Jesus did not do that. Jesus preached what people want to hear and so does Pastor Steven. He is handsome, humble, and one of the most sought out preachers in the world. Maybe the reason he is not your Pastor is that YOU can’t handle the TRUTH!!
Nancy wrote:
Just for the record – I got there first!
Admittedly you described it in fewer words than I did.
(I am, as I trust you have all spotted, determined that we don’t take this chap too seriously. I realise that there are people like that who really believe they’re following Jesus. They have largely, as our friend “hundred dollar” Bill has ably demonstrated, chosen their own deception. But a cheerful heart is a good medicine, and thereby we might just by all means win some…)
But it’s exciting to hear that Furtick is healing the sick, raising the dead and producing miraculous quantities of food out of nothing. Which, of course, is what the crowds who followed Jesus were after. I have to admit, that is cool.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
In other words, don’t feed the trolls? Yeah, I should know better. As Dee has already said, his posts make her point.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
You did make a good point of redirecting the conversation to the real Jesus, though; for which, thanks.
LOL. The saddest thing of all is that Bill Rogers basically sounds like he could actually be for real. He hasn’t said anything that is anymore ridiculous than what people have said in earnest. Pretty sure everyone on this post was just punked though 😉
Bill Rogers wrote:
This is a classic cool hip mega church member statement. That is the only way they have to respond in order to make any mention of the excess and false teaching going on—A SIN.
Trust me, I would not want to be NEAR Furtick when Jesus comes back. It is one thing to be a charlatan but to be one using the Name of Jesus is scary stuff.
Bill Rogers wrote:
Pastor Steve would REALLY envy me if he could see my present abode! And if y’all think a chopper puts his new little “not that great of a house” in perspective, we have a “heavenly” perspective on it in this neighborhood. As I once said,
“There are three ways to ultimate success:
The first way is to be kind.
The second way is to be kind.
The third way is to be kind.”
― Fred Rogers
“Bill Rogers wrote:
I agree that you are not a troll. I think you might have a great sense of humor and are outing Furtick in a hyperbolic reverse psychology way. Because you are doing a great job of making his theology look ridiculous.
@ dee:
Dee, I was thinking the exact same thing. It seemed a parody. But then again, so did Furtick’s video in a previous post.
Nancy wrote:
Taking up the cross and following Him?
@ Virginia Knowles:
I know! I have always thought of guys like Ed Young, Perry Noble and Furtick as parodies. I have a hard time taking them seriously. It is like a stage performance.
ken wrote:
……..,………………
A good testimony indeed! Easier to ” feel blessed ” when the coffers are full but not so easy when life presents adversity. I hope you continue to share God’s faithfulness to his beloved.
My husband grew up in family of eleven……in a 1250 sq.ft house. Our home is 1750 sq.ft. he feels like he lives in a mansion. 🙂
Bill Rogers wrote:
No, but you are a hilarious “wind-up”! Are you by chance a member of that family of moves-of-god known as SMG?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Members might do it for free just to get around his great “wow” factor presence. :o)
Furtick is a parody. As are many of his church members. Either that or crazy, or both.
Bill Rogers wrote:
Ha. Ha. Ha. I used to attend a church that tried to make their motto: “The Premier Church of _____.”
My elderly mother got up and said that we worship Jesus not a church. It’s not about aggrandizing a church. Someday that church will fall down. Someday the pastor will no longer be able to preach. It’s all about Jesus.
Bill, your focus is in the wrong place.
A thought just struck me as I remembered a blog post I wrote today about the old hymn “When We All Get to Heaven.” When we get to Heaven, are the mansions and streets of gold the main attraction? Sure, they’re gonna be nice, but we’re going there to be with Jesus most of all. Isn’t that what church is about too – being with Jesus? No need for glitz – it just detracts from the depth of the message. Maybe that’s the point of glitz in these churches, though – to distract folks enough so they don’t notice the absence of any real substance?
Anyway, here’s the post link. I touched on shepherding and spiritual abuse, too.
http://www.watchtheshepherd.blogspot.com/2013/10/when-we-all-get-to-heaven-strength-in.html
Bill Rogers wrote:
Thank you for making me laugh. You know a church has made it when the pro ball players attend. I know that is in the Scriptures, somewhere.
However, the reason the bankers are coming is to keep an eye on their asset!
Hmm…don’t know if Bill is punking or for real. But my gut is he’s for real. This is exactly the type of argument you would (and still do) get from the members of my former church. Appearances are everything. Pride in brand…etc…..
Folks
Bill is having fun with us!!!
Parody!!!!!!!!
@ dee:
He did a good job. This actually sounds like some of the things my former churchmates would say…
dee wrote:
That’s what I think.
Besides, no church can be all that cool if I’m not attending (and I don’t attend his church or any church right now). Because I’m all that. 🙂
@ Bill Rogers:
But does your totally happen’ church have a coffee shop, like all truly cool happening churches do?
@ Daisy: Or a $10,000 espresso machine like Ed Young has?
In my initial encounter with codswallop the meaning fish entrails came to mind. In retrospect, that might more applicable to the recent discussions here than the more polite but less evocative British meaning as nonsense or rubbish.
Bill’s parody roped me in, too. Good job! Poe’s Law is hard at work here…
I’ve been thinking of all the self-promotion the Furticks do via social media. They both have their own blogs, church videos and twitter accounts. Sometimes it makes me cringe how much they do put out there, but I realize it’s part of their lifestyle. If you looked at the beginning of the sermon titled “Scar-Shaper” (the same one where he mentions his mansion) there is video of his six year old son’s getting stitches in his knee. On their twitter accounts they regularly show their children, the interior of their house, vacations and so on. Evidently they are very proud of their lives while giving everyone a view.
So, why wouldn’t they be the same way about their home under construction? I haven’t seen any pictures of the footers being dug or the foundation being poured. No house plans put out there for us to ooh and aaah over. No pics of their children running wild over the 19 acres. Nada.
Why?
Why wouldn’t the Furticks want us to cheer them on in their current project?! Aren’t they proud?
dee wrote:
Whew! Perhaps I didn’t recognize the parody because the comments from some Furtick fans sound just like that.
OK. Now I’ll relax and enjoy.
@ Dee:
Then he nailed it. Esp. the arrogance of fundy CCM-onlyers. I think I like that term…
Bill Rogers wrote:
Oh, THAT explains why I didn’t feel comfortable that one time I did go to Elevation. I’m not into that overpriced, overrated, pretentious sort of thing. And it’s always nice to see a congregation “hating” on other area churches. Maybe it’s other Charlotte churches that “Hey Haters” was aimed at.
Well, at the very least, you have to admit that the Elevation bunch aren’t showing any of that C.J. Mahaney sort of “false humility” – they put it right out there that they’re the best game in town.
“I want you to buy a bunch of them. Will you do that for me? Buy two or three, or five or ten or… they come in a case, kind of like beer, you can get 24 of them, and you could do that also.” – Steven promoting his book during his “Sun Stand Still” sermon series at Elevation. (Don’t worry, he does this within the first three minutes of this particular sermon, in case you don’t want to listen to him for too long.)
Well, if a whole lot of his his congregation are buying 24-packs of his book, then it’s actually very possible that his house has been funded by book sales alone.
Just out of curiosity, any of you who might live in the Charlotte area, where does all the money come from? Correct me if I’m wrong, but hasn’t the manufacturing base of the Carolinas been pretty much looted, gutted, and shipped offshore like so many other places in this great Nation of ours? It can’t be old money, that’s Gone With the Wind. My guess is that there isn’t a hog high enough in what remains of the old agrarian industries to support Furtick’s lifestyle. That leaves the banking, investment and hedge fund industries right?
Muff Potter wrote:
We also have sports. NASCAR, the Carolina Panthers, etc. NASCAR’s the big one – many of the major racing teams are headquartered here. And the wealth of the banking/financial sector isn’t to be underestimated – it’s a huge influence here.
Virginia Knowles wrote:
I think you have hit the nail on the head with this post. Also, I didn’t think Furtick, in the video seemed worried about anything. That is worrisome to me.
Dee and Deb – Did you see this on Stuff Christian Culture Likes: https://www.facebook.com/stuffchristianculturelikes/posts/10152315578498782
@ dee: Is he Sergius Martin-George in disguise?!
btw, the remark about the Carolina Bobcats made me laugh. 🙂
@ Julie Anne: Verrrry interesting, JA!
@ Julie Anne: The information looks like the same info I have. TWW is continuing to receive further information that is being passed onto the right people. Furtick should be concerned.
Mandy wrote:
That’s really the crux of the whole shebang isn’t it? It’s never enough is it? Human weakness always wants more and it will do whatever’s necessary to amass more. It’s a sickness that rots the guts out of great Nations far more than gay or lesbian folk ever will.
numo wrote:
I do not think so. However, if he and Sergius teamed up-my goodness would it be fun!
Joy Huff wrote:
If you listen to him, he is stuttering, losing track of what he is saying. It is very different than the Hey Haters video. I think he is worried.H e does not look straight out at the audience. His eyes are focused downward and sometimes to the left. I think he looks a bit guilty and not sure of what he is saying, if you get my drift.
He made an error by saying that his house was “not so great.” That is showing he is not thinking clearly and is trying to figure out a way to get out of this. He should be ashamed of himself. So should his buddies who are helping him out.
Furtick’s defense of his home just about makes me ill. I came to faith through the ministry of an urban church that met in a garage. People really sacrificed so that we could build a small sanctuary that sat 300. I served overseas where people met in many modest buildings. Some of them didn’t even have buildings, so they met outside. Furtick is truly bringing shame to the Lord he purports to serve.
@ anonymous: I do not know how Furtick can bring shame to the Lord, but he certainly is bringing shame on *himself* and his shallow, materialistic, light-and-sound show of a “ministry.”
Really, his place of employment is a circus, not an actual church.
Concerning the security detail surrounding the Furticks as they arrive at church (as described in Stuff Christian Culture Likes), made me think of Demi Moore.
I remember reading an article many years ago that described the 3-ring circus of security personnel that threaded their way through her daily life and around her life (when she was active in movies). Earpieces, walkie talkies, very serious, very serious….
She and Ally Sheedy had been friends. The article recalled a conversation the two had several years prior:
“As a turning point, Sheedy recalls a bike ride the two took together in Sycamore Canyon, north of Malibu, in the spring of 1986. Moore had recently visited [Sean] Penn and Madonna, who had married the previous summer, at their home in Malibu. “Demi was talking about Madonna, and she said, ‘That’s what I want. I want that,”‘ says Sheedy “I said, `What do you mean? You want all that money?’ Demi said, ‘It’s not just the money It’s the power. She has power, and I want power.’ It was an illuminating moment for me. I thought I knew her, and I realized I didn’t at all.”
The article suggested that part of her acquisition of power was playing the part. Hiring ridiculous levels of security detail so as to create the illusion of grand importance, of being so influential that she needed to be protected from all the little people who were caught in her vortex of influence she couldn’t help but exude (so to speak). All illusion. (“ilOOOOOOshun….”)
But it was artificial. Completely fabricated. I remember at the time thinking “Her??” Of course it was fabricated.
Playing a part with props toward the acquisition of power.
“…she’s coming out to water a plant. No, no, she’s going back inside to go to the bathroom.” “roger that.”
@ dee:
I believe you’re right. He’s done a pretty good job, too, really – is there some kind of award you could make?
I’ve now completed a structured analysis of Bill’s comments including adjective/noun ratios, a derived subjectivity/objectivity function and its evidence/baseline quotient and have concluded that I’d better go and get some coffee.
That’s better. Back to data-cleansing (a laborious job but one that has to be done).
@ Muff Potter:
If that is the population supporting Furtick, no wonder he has money love issues! Those are all people who manage OPM — other people’s money — and make their living skimming off the top. Of course, none would ever admit to churning an account.
When the latter of my parents passed, their desire had been that their estate would be split with equal shares going to each of their children and to missions in Africa. We provided funds to build churches in east and central Africa. The money actually bought the galvanized metal roof material and the special nails to anchor it to the timber structure built by the members. Somewhere I have a photograph of one of the churches. “Pews” made of split logs to sit on, a “table” of similar construction at the front that apparently served as pulpit and altar. No side walls. Each church received the roofing at a cost of a few thousand dollars.
I suspect that God is better worshiped there than in Elevation “Church” with all of its physical investment.
anonymous wrote:
Shame is a great word. He has brought shame and he has no shame.
Muff Potter wrote:
And it is doubly sad when they use the church and biblical lingo to do it.They play games with God.
numo wrote:
Well said!
oldJohnJ wrote:
Thank you for making me laugh!
Muff Potter wrote:
The curse of the Christian in this country: we focus on problems that we do not have and totally overlook our over the top sin.
Once again, I hear some in the SBC are trying to justify this. It will come out.
elastigirl wrote:
Darn, you are smart! Well said.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
You sound a lot like me. Except, I can’t drink coffee at night.
Arce wrote:
I am thinking about writing a post about decreasing giving to churches in which pastors live large and giving the money to real needs instead.
dee wrote:
I would pay money to see this!
I’m assuming the prankster has made themselves known to you Dee…we should award them some of the Sacred TWW chocolate for this one.
I bet even if a scandalous news report comes out about how Furtick got his big house, it will end up not mattering.
Occasionally, these preachers who do immoral things (whether it’s have an affair, harm a child, bilk people out of money) do face consequences. Some do go to jail, or they lose their television ministry for a few months or years, but it seems to me that they usually do not face any sort of penalty in the long run.
Even the ones who do who get caught (Swaggert, Jim Bakker, Robert Tilton) come back months or years later with a new church or a new television ministry and pick up where they left off.
It’s not that I don’t believe people don’t deserve second chances or forgiveness, but IMO, if you are a preacher who was caught out ripping people off financially, or you were hurting children, or what have you, you should not be permitted to serve or act as a preacher ever again, or to go on Christian TV and act as a host, where you take more money from people.
A lot of Christians are a little too forgiving of this nonsense. These guys get back on TV, or they get a new church.
I’m afraid even if it’s revealed that Furtick didn’t get his house honestly, he may face some blow back for a few months, but he’ll basically get away with it.
dee wrote:
Who said anything about night? It was breakfast-time here in Blighty.
Muff Potter wrote:
😯
His theme song should be,
Stuart by the Dead Milkmen
(song about conspiracy theories involving aliens, the U.S. government, and homosexuals who are covertly helping Martians build landing strips in Iowa)
Just a dose of reality: this is likely just a minor bump in the road for Furtick. He will get his 16,000 sf house, he’ll keep on trucking. These mega pastors who get rich off their flock know how it works. You will eventually get exposed by a pesky reporter for your huge salary and perks and houses and jets (or other such scandals) – and yes the bloggers will talk about it and keep things going for a while. And yes, you’ll lose 5%, 10%, even maybe 20% of your followers – but as Dee quoted “there’s a sucker born every minute” to take the place of the ones who have their eyes opened and can’t stand it anymore.
Most of the millionaire megas go through the process at least once: Ed Young and his jet and his opulent home, Gaines and his pedophile staff member, Caner and his lies – even Creflo Dollar and his bunch had to endure the “persecution” of a Senate investigation. They endure the process, then keep on going, and keep on rakin’ it in. All for Jesus of course. It is their modern version of being a true martyr. They are masterful marketers, and know the vast majority of their followers are so gullible that about the only thing that can stop them is if they get caught with a prostitute in a hotel – and are dumb enough to admit it publicly – or they are caught in fraudulent behavior like the Bakkers. Those are about the only things that will get more than 20% to stop following them.
But there is something about Furtick that feels different. He seems a bit “creepier” than the others. Seems to be more self-absorbed than the others, and probably he is the youngest mega millionaire to have to endure this scrutiny. Do does he have maturity and endurance hold up under the intense scrutiny and criticism to come and not let it drive him nuts? We shall see.
@ dee:
So what? He sets it up and we knock it down. That’s as good a conversational parlor game as there is. And, besides, he is good at it. You ought to consider making him a regular commenter, or something.
@ Nick Bulbeck: I was never good at figuring out time zones! So, what kind of coffee do you like?
@ dee:
Yes, we’re 5 hours ahead of New York (our clocks go back an hour in a couple of weeks for “daylight saving time”, a term that is somewhat academic north of The Border as there’s not much daylight in the Scottish winter). So whatever timestamp comes up on this post, it’s 16:54 as I write.
As regards coffee: oddly enough, Starbucks own brand (which is on sale in supermarkets) is good, but equally good – and, to my mind, with better Fairtrade credentials – is Cafe Direct rich roast. Other than that, I like it black with no sugar, and unhealthily strong. By and large, you have to water my coffee down before you can stand a spoon up in it.
Hey, Man-o-Gawd Furtick! If your 16000 sg ft “cottage” on all that acreage “is not that great a house”, you want to trade with me? I’m looking to trade up from my 1200 sq ft townhouse!
Daisy wrote:
Now that’s a unique combination… Not up to the Shaver Mystery or Francis E Dec Esq level of sheer weirdness, but getting there. It’s Art Bell opening up the phones at 3 Ayem.
“But *I* know What’s Really Going On! I KNOW it’s the QUEERS!! THEY’RE IN IT WITH THE ALIENS!!!”
AnonInNC wrote:
Well, they ARE competition for the $heep’$ butt$ in $eat$…
Tom R wrote:
The mega”pastors” grag about “growing” your church by getting members to leave. One infamously compared it to a “colon flush”:
JeffT wrote:
I think I agree with Ambrose Bierce:
Anon 1 wrote:
Strange. I thought it was an attempt at trolling, trying to stir up controversy.
@ TedS.: there you lay your finger on the deception that the self-made congregational CEO has both fallen for and eagerly bought into: that his private empire, consisting only of people he likes spending time with, is “a church body”. It is a sect within the church body – at best. Companies like Mars Hill in Seattle are, if anything, notorious for the lack of love their senior leaders show towards other believers in their respective localities.
Paradoxically, one of the strengths of the blogsphere is that it enables Christians to interact at least in thought with other Christians from hugely different backgrounds. It can’t replace face-to-face contact but it does complement it. And it helps free us from the delusion that we need only love Christians who are like us and whom we get along with without effort.
Bill Rogers wrote:
“Gourmet gospel”. Yeah, right.
Definitely a troll.
Bill Rogers wrote:
Huh?
Where does the gospel of Jesus come in, he who gave up what was his, humbled himself, died a lonely death on the cross?
Where do the new testament witnesses come in here, who paid their way to preach the gospel?
The only thing that little Billy’s statements remind me of is Exodus ch 32, v3:
3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “These are your gods,[b] Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.”
Tom R wrote:
Yep, I was just saying this in a post or two above yours… in all my years of seeing scandals among preachers, rarely do they have to step down permanently. They may go to jail for a few years, or go through a divorce, but they come back a few years later with a new church and/or new wife/ new TV show, and they go back to the big houses and fancy cars.
Muff Potter wrote:
Wendell Berry has written extensively on the topic of powerful corporate interests and their deleterious effects on lands and peoples. There was a certain blog (very reformed) awhile back that tried to co-opt Berry for their own rhetoric regarding membership and ‘spiritual’ authority. I wonder if they ever had an ‘oops’ moment when Berry weighed in on the LGBT question in a published essay supportive of their right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness without intrusive laws crafted against them.
Greed has ruined this country and is now ruining the church.
Daisy wrote:
There is a reason for this. Because what is taught as “sinners sin” makes it no big deal. In fact, people love to think how “forgiving” they are of a believers human weaknesses. They will pack out a court room begging the judge to be lenient with the “Christian” pedophile. Few expects us to become “new Creatures in Christ” and grow in holiness. That is considered judgmental and mean. We are expected to remain continual sinners after salvation because the false dichotomy is sinless perfection or continual sinning.
Another reason for this is a misunderstanding of original sin…as if we cannot help it anyway and Jesus hung on the cross to forgive whatever believers do for the rest of their lives.
Whenever responsibility is taken off us— in whatever doctrinal position we accept— we end up with the above.
@ gus: His posts were, according to Dee, a very well-played parody of the way people who belong to churches like Elevation tend to comment.
check upthread for Dee’s comment on that plus Daisy’s links to the definition of “Poe.” (Hint: it’s not the American author in this case. 😉 )
Bill Rogers wrote:
It’s “Ruth’s Chris”, and if you think that is gourmet…well, I just can’t help you.
Muff Potter wrote:
Hōjō Masako was not a lesbian. She is my fantasy unrequited love.
Dear Doctor
I love their steaks with extra butter. And their shoestring potatoes-magnificent!
No true gourmet eats big pieces of red meat these days. Sure fired way to shorten your time before the final destination and to spend your later days with diminished heart or brain capacity due to clogged arteries.
@ dee:
Mmmm . . . . good! But I wouldn’t suggest partaking of it once a week. On that I agree with Arce. I also wouldn’t advise of partaking of Elevation church weekly. It would eventually clog your ability to discern what Jesus was about.
@ Arce:
6 cute butternut squash raviolis on a plate with lemon cream sauce and the right glass of wine. actually, just the right amount of food.
(maybe it’s the crispy sourdough and great butter beforehand that makes it work)
Finely diced apple, peach, plum (all w/skin on), dressed with fresh lime and lemon juice, with perhaps a little Splenda, then blueberries and walnut nuggets. Served with shrimp marinated in sesame oil, sesame seed and butter, then grilled to golden brown. Fresh steamed broccoli, sauted mushrooms and onions, fresh 7 or 9 grain (coarse ground) bread. Healthy, low carbo, high protein. Can sub salmon for shrimp.
20 minutes prep time, marination time ??, 15 minutes total cooking time, except bread of course. That is a modern gourmet meal.
@ Bridget:
OOOH. Clogged discernment — the disease of mega church attenders w/ power pastors.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I know that Dr. Fundy, just as Hypatia of Alexandria is mine. It was purely tongue-in-cheek-humor.
@ Arce:
bowl of steaming tom kha gai, spinach and peanut sauce and rice, a thai beer.
Salmon with my patent cheese and lemon sauce, with couscous (flavoured with lime juice and coriander). Trout goes well with that too. Smoked mackarel is nice but leave out the cheese sauce in that case and just go with lemon (plus the lime juice in the couscous) because you need the sharpness to balance the oily fish.
Real ale is best; you need a blond one with fish. Try Harviestoun Bitter and Twisted (brewed in my home village as it happens, and exported around the world) or the similar Coniston Bluebird.
Back to Bill’s comments (here and here).
Poe’s Law, cited by GBTC, states that (as worded in Wiki)
Nathan Poe originally targeted his comments at Creationists (though of course there are Creationists who perfectly capable of measured debate that is not self-parodying). The thing is that there really are people, as several of you have observed, who think and speak the way Mr Rogers posted here. Parody by its very nature is only humorous if you set the context – as I know to my cost, because I have an incorrigibly dry sense of humour which is constantly getting me labelled as an idiot [rant] by people who are themselves too stupid, patronising or up themselves to know that I’m obviously joking [/rant].
So unless Bill actually comes out (so to speak) it will be impossible to tell for certain whether he is a hypnotised Furtick Fanboy or an accomplished practical joker. I suspect the latter.
P.S. Sorry – it was of course Daisy who cited Poe’s Law.
GBTC, recently, cited Godwin’s Law:
We’re actually quite good at avoiding that here.
elastigirl wrote:
or a glass of sweet wine….
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Actually, you are correct. Applause to TWW commenters. I have only had to deep six about 12 commenters in 5 years. Considering the fact that this blog is controversial in certain circles, that is darn good.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
If they do not get you, their lives will be the poorer for it.
Diagnosis: Clogged discernment
Cause: Mega-church preaching without real substance
Cure: Lay leadership — priesthood of the believers implemented in church polity
Prevention: Do not let the pastor by the ruler of the church or appoint the lay leadership.
dee wrote:
Oh, they ****** get me all right.
But thank you all the same! 🙂
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Alright, cough it up. How do i make that cheese and lemon sauce?
Elastigirl wrote:
A rather unfortunate turn of phrase, if I may so observe…
It’s a bit of a cheat, really. I use about a tablespoon of cornflour with about 300ml of milk (it’s never the same twice, to be honest, and I don’t know what a UK tablespoon corresponds to in the US – I hope this is helpful). Anyway, mix the milk and the cornflour in a jug and slowly bring it to the boil to thicken it (I use the microwave). Meanwhile, grate and squeeze two lemons so you have both the zest (finely ground) and the juice.
Back to the cornflour/milk. Stir in a large amount of grated mature cheddar cheese (again, don’t know what the US equivalent is but don’t use blue cheese – keep it simple, i.e.). I don’t know what I mean by “a large amount” – probably about 4 ounces but it’s enough to cover a dinner plate once grated. You want it tasting of cheese, in other words. Add the lemon stuff and a pinch of salt to taste. And that’s you.
I know there are more sophisticated ways of making a basic white sauce, involving butter and the like. I’m sure that would work as well, and possibly better. The important thing is both the zest and the juice from the lemons. One gives the flavour some depth and richness, the other gives it some freshness and sharpness. And even then, the pinch of salt makes a world of difference.
Er, and obviously, you have to keep it on a low heat when you stir in the cheese, so that it melts through.
Incidentally, it keeps reasonably well in the fridge if you don’t use it all. It kind of sets like blancmange, but you can reheat it and give it a stir and it’ll be as good as new. More or less.
I don’t think there is anything wrong specifically with having a large house. I’m not sure why a pastor’s house would be so exceptionally large, but… The real underlying question is how the Furtick’s will be using this property? Is it a tool for hospitality or an attempt to keep the sheep at arms length?
@ Nick Bulbeck:
I like the cornflour idea. Yes, I’m sure the bit of salt is like a pinch of magic with the lemon.
I simply think or see in ml and ounces, but I do have a measuring cup and spoons I got in England so that I could make the recipes in the Gary Rhodes cookbook my mother-in-law gave me. Have some salmon in the freezer — I might just give it a shot!
it would be very cool if I could find that Harviestoun Bitter and Twisted (brewed in your home village) or the similar Coniston Bluebird. i’ll investigate.
@ dee:
bowl of steaming tom kha gai, spinach and peanut sauce and rice, a thai beer.
“…or a glass of sweet wine….”
++++++++++++++
yes — I understand Riesling is good with Thai food. Not that I actually plan my beverages & food with this much forethought. I’d like to, though. Just the right wine with exquisite food is an event one never forgets. Poetry in potion. (I should trademark that– remember elastigirl said it first)
Pinot gris, a good choice, too. As I understand it, the wine is distinct from pinot grigio.
“While they are the same grape, the two names have come to infer two different styles of wine. Immensely popular, the Italian style Pinot Grigio wines are typically lighter-bodied, crisp, fresh, with vibrant stone fruit and floral aromas and a touch of spice. In contrast, Alsace Pinot Gris wines are more full-bodied, richer, spicier, and more viscous in texture. They also tend to have greater cellaring and ageing potential. In Alsace, Pinot Gris also manifests itself in late harvest botrytis styles such as Vendages Tardives (VT) and the intensely rich, sweet and rare Sélection de Grains Noble (SGN).” http://www.thekitchn.com/pinot-grigio-vs-pinot-gris-wha-126507”
Also found this, for wine & Thai food: http://chezpim.com/drink/wine_and_thai_food
Kristin
Does Steven Furtick strike you as the “hospitality” type? Besides, the best parties I ever threw were on the Navajo Indian Reservation in a 750 square foot apartment. Stuffing 50 people in was difficult but they all stayed until the wee hours. Two people sat in the bathtub and talked.
I very much doubt the Furticks will be utilizing this single family home for the good of society. It doesn’t even make sense for them to use it for hospitality; they have access to Elevation’s campuses for that. Isn’t that why Elevation built Blakeney as a multi-purpose facility available to individuals and groups to rent? Steven and Holly could have a party at that location every day of the week. There is no need to build a home with 16,000 square feet for that!
The Furticks are in a bubble, insulated from what is happening in their own backyard. I say that even though Steven boasts of the money donated to the community. This money wasn’t donated by him. People who attend his church donated it. He simply likes to take credit. And, not all of this was to benefit the least amongst us in the area. I know $55,000 was donated to Proverbs 31 Ministries which Lysa Terkeurst heads up. That’s money that will never teach a child to read or purchase food for a hungry family. But, it will help Lysa Terkeurst and her fellow Jesus girls to continue selling books and DVDs as well as jetting around the country.
This bubble with body guards and many employees simply pays lip service to the poverty in Charlotte. Here is an article in today’s Charlotte Observer on the poor living in the shadow of gleaming bank towers and high rises in the county the Furticks presently live:
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/10/08/4374522/poverty-amid-charlottes-riches.html#.UlWk2FOy5PM
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Translation Alert!
Cornflour=cornstarch
Nick’s cornflour is known as cornstarch in the US. Do not use cornmeal like you would use in corn bread. It is not the same thing.
@ Heather:
I did wonder. I’m assuming we’re safe with “salmon” and “lemons”. If salmon is not a pink-meated fish and lemons aren’t a yellow citrus fruit over there, then we’d better start again.
Olivia wrote:
It’s all about being part of the “Mega-church Pastors with Million-Dollar Gated Estates Owned by Secret Trusts with Professional Security Guards” Club. Think of the boys with their big toys in The Elephant Room.
dee wrote:
I’m sure Furtick will host his fair share of notable guests. It’s always interesting to learn how people define hospitality. Since when does hospitality = hosting a party? Hospitality is letting someone stay a few weeks while they transition to a new place. Hospitality is letting lonely people with no family join in on your family Christmas. If asked he would probably say he’s ‘unfortunately’ too famous to practice that kind of hospitality.
@ Kristin:
Are you seriously proposing that the dude bought the huge house to host other people? Does Joyce Meyer let the homeless into her home to use her $23,000 gold toilet?
@ Daisy: We have followed that gold toilet through the years. I think it means that she is full of it.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Salmon and lemon the same? We pretend they are but Scottish salmon rules! On the other hand, I brought home a bootfull of pumpkins and squash last week which my Scottish family would love to partake in!
@ Heather:
and by boot, you do not mean footwear, but what we call a trunk, as in a compartment in the rear of an automobile.
Steven Furtick, God gave me a scripture for you to read Luke16:19-31
Dee & elastigirl,
Try some Vietnamese cuisine. In my opinion it’s got Chinese & Thai beat by miles.
@ Muff Potter: I love it all. I have an indiscriminate palate.
Muff Potter wrote:
But it’s got cilantro.
Muff Potter wrote:
Pho. Best thing ever. As is Bibimbap. And Lamb Biryani. And living in a university town with lots of fellow internationals!
@ Muff Potter:
Green apple and beef salad, grapefruit and hicama salad, and a steaming bowl of pho.
(You must agree, though, that tom kha gai is untouchable as far as fabulous goes)
I repeat: it’s got cilantro.
@ Kristin:
Indeed. The normal word for “hospitable” used in new testament times actually means “a friend of strangers”.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
Here that would be considered a person who is (possibly guilty of a crime of) welcoming non-citizens w/o regard to their status.
Arce wrote:
🙂
I have been going to Elevation for over 2 years, I believe in what we do for the community not only with money but with volunteer hours. I have respect for Pastor Steven and his preaching, although I have never met him (most people at Elevation have never met him). However, my commitment is not with Elevation and certainly not Pastor Steven. I can see how people look at our Church and think is a cult. I see people on a regular basis become “fans” of Pastor Steven and Elevation, because the Church has created this “we’re cool” environment and have also done wonders with branding and marketing, I think it all depends on your spiritual maturity. I ONLY follow Christ and if proof ever comes out that Pastor built his house with money from the Church, I’ll be the first one to leave.
However, I believe this platform has the reach and the power to be used for something more positive, something that enriches the Kingdom of God, because honestly, all the comments are to condemn and judge, but there is no proof, or is there?
If you have solid reliable information, please expose it. Otherwise. What is this forum for?
I know you all are going to say, you can use your blod for whatever you want, and I agree.
But we can’t forget that as Christians, we answer to a higher authority, we have been called to be better people, and what we say here is not really a reflexion of who Pastor Steven or any other Pastor is, it is a reflexion of what we have in our hearts.
@ Mary:
Hi, Mary. Your comment is very reasonable.
My thought in response, though, is that to answer to a higher authority and to be called to be better people does not cancel out candid expression of observation. I feel that the spokespeople for Christian culture have ascribed trigger words like “condemn” and “judge” to the simple processes of expressing “something doesn’t seem right”, “x is wrong”, “y is immoral”, and “z is illegal”.
I feel these spokespeople have done this for their own convenience, and out of an inflated sense of self. This is wrong & dangerous for all, including them.
Said spokespeople will disagree with me. In which case we agree to disagree. But I see no spiritual, moral, or interpersonal reason why I can’t state my position.
Pingback: Pastor Steven Furtick: It’s not even that great of a house | Nightmares of Jesus
I agree with you, however, the only thing is that all these comments are based on speculation, I have not seen proof of any wrongdoing by the Furticks. We can say “it doesn’t seem right”, but can we say? It’s illegal, it’s wrong, it’s immoral, without offering proof. I guess the answer is yes, we can say whatever we want, but without proof, we are simply spreading gossip. It’s slander. Don’t you think we should be a little more responsible about what we say? We could be damaging someone’s reputation for no reason.
Also, the Christian culture (as far as I’m concerned) is based on the bible, which call us not to judge or gossip.
@ Mary:
How can he be your pastor, or anyone’s pastor, if you and others have never met him. He doesn’t appear to be a pastor to me. He appears to be a business man, making money, from the sale of Jesus.
Does he marry people, weep with people, rejoice with people, counsel with people? To the people who support him, he appears to be a celebrity. If that is what his followers want, then that is what they have. He is fulfilling that role quite well with body guards, large homes, hidden finances, and himself shown on movie screens throughout Charlotte and beyond. Maybe he’ll soon be on the Today Show like Joel O. and Mark Driscoll pushing a new book.
This all sounds so much like Jesus and his disciples.
@ Mary:
“It’s slander”
Sorry. No slander here, since nobody is speaking. Even then, only an intentionally false spoken statement is slander. There is communication “behind the scenes” on this blog that none of us except the authors are aware of.
You sound like a sincere Christian. I hope we all learn the truth about what is going on with Furtick.
Mary wrote:
>gag reflex<
Reminds me of a hymn…
Mary wrote:
What do you mean by "wrong doing?" We did not say it was illegal. But we do think it is wrong for a pastor to live in this fashion. That is our adorable opinion! Mary wrote:
I am not sure you have researched the meaning of "slander." If it is written it is libel. These words actually mean telling a lie for the sake of damaging a reputation. That is not what is happening here. It is important for everyone to know that their pastor is living in a mansion. It helps you to make a decision about where to spend your money. I say give it to the homeless shelter. Most of those people cant afford 16 feet let alone 16,090 square feet. As for being called "not to judge" that is another favorite of the Christian subculture. If you read that in context, it means to not judge the salvation of an individual. Carefully check out you Bible before you assume a meaning. In fact we are called to judge. If we weren't then how could we ever tell anyone that they are doing anything wrong? As for gossip, this is the typical way that pastors get people to shut up about wrong doing. It is bizarre to have a pastor who thinks that a 16,090 square foot house is "not that great." It calls his judgment into question. I want to challenge you to move beyond the lingo of Christianese and be a Berean. Think through what you are saying and eschew knee jerk words that are often taught by those who have something to hide.
@ Mary:
Hi, again, Mary.
As far as reputation goes, anyone who makes themself a public figure naturally draws public scrutiny. A public figure has influence over people. Such an individual is rightly observed & critiqued. Call it accountability. If they want to be listened to, they better be willing to be evaluated as worthy. I mean, how can someone say “hey, look at me!” and then say “hey, quit looking at me!”
I don’t need proof to make the observation that something smells ominously bad when someone who makes their living off of donations, continually asking for more, lives a wealthy lifestyle far and above the average person who funds it all.
His lifestyle choices are just asking for scrutiny and public commentary.
As to Christian culture, the bible can be made to say a whole host of things. It can be a tool to legitimize a number of shady things. It is more correct that Christian culture is based on (1) what people of influence persuasively declare the bible says, and (2) critical mass of listeners who say “yes” (or nothing).
All the more reason for scrutiny and public commentary.
Mary wrote:
Actually, the Bible does tell Christians to judge other Christians:
1 Corinthians 5
Mary wrote:
Mary, Please read 1 Corin 5 several times. And make note of whom Paul is talking about.
Daisy wrote:
I wonder if Furtick or anyone in his congregation ever read this one. Obvious they don’t heed it.
Mary wrote:
Where else could it come from ultimately? Even if it was his books (which is very doubtful), Elevation provided the platform, time and resources them to be written. If his speaking gigs paid for it, again, Elevation provided the platform, time and resources.
You cannot escape it. Either they have rich relatives who gave them the money or Elevation provided the way.
But most people in churches like Elevation want a celebrity pastor so they have no problem with such things.
Dee wrote:
😆
I’ve been thinking.
I’ve heard of different versions of the Monopoly board game. There’s one for Bat Man, Star Trek, one for The Walking Dead.
Someone needs to make a YRR/ Mega Church/ gender complementarian board game.
For the playing pieces, there could be a tiny gilded toilet (in honor of Joyce Meyer), a leer jet playing piece, a tiny replica of Ed Young Jr’s fancy coffee making machine…
You could land on a square in Steve Furtick’s Charlotte property and buy that.
You could have a “didn’t wash the dishes before you go to bed, so you lose a turn” card (maybe make that one applicable for female players only).
@ Daisy:
Oh, make that “lear,” not “leer” jet 🙂
@ Muff Potter: I dunno, and I’m *not* saying that as a slam on Vietnamese food – far from it.
Chinese cuisine is *far* more varied than what’s typically served in restaurants where non-Chinese are regulars. Unless a restaurant has a large Chinese clientele, they’re not going to list the less-known dishes on a menu, though I’d imagine they might figure in catering menus.
Another thing about chinese food is that China is *huge* – there are many different regional cuisines. I think most non-Chinese tend to think of the blander Cantonese dishes as typical of all Chinese food, which is understandable, because that’s what most all of us grew up with. But it’s a very misleading impression. But then, I was kind of spoiled – my dad used to ask his Chinese stewards to show him how they made certain dishes (things they cooked for themselves), and he loved the variety of foods that he had in Hong Kong and Taiwan (which he visited regularly( and taught himself to make some pretty frakkin’ good Chinese (and Japanese) food. Family and friends got to eat some wonderful meals as a result!
About Thai food, I really don’t know enough to be able to comment.
@ numo:
“my dad used to ask his Chinese stewards to show him how they made certain dishes (things they cooked for themselves), … and taught himself to make some pretty frakkin’ good Chinese (and Japanese).”
++++++++++++++++++++
i’m sure i’d love it. wish I could have some now right now.
numo wrote:
Point well taken numo. I can come off as a little too narrow and provincial at times and I’m betting that the dishes your Dad learned from his stewards are fantastic!
Thanks for such a precisely worded comment. Observation and critique of a highly visible and highly vocal person is to be expected. Also,as noted, Christians are commanded to judge the fruit of other professing believers. In this case, I think the fruit in question is not the house, but his attitude. *gag*@ elastigirl:
@ elastigirl: Me too, elastigirl.
@ Muff Potter: they did taste wonderful. wish I knew how to make them, but he had a monopoly on the kitchen whenever he cooked, and the finer points had to be observed. they weren’t things you could write down, really.
Hello, I go to elevation regularly as well. We tithe and my wife volunteers.
Some thoughts:
I suspect the land and maybe the house were donated/sold massively below fair market value. Even given that tho, there is no measure that can explain away the scale of excessiveness. I would lie if I told you that it didn’t trouble me greatly. It makes me call into question my relationship with Elevation. I will not lie about that.
I don’t think that you have to be impoverished to follow Jesus or that those with great wealth can’t. I do not believe the bible excludes one group or another obviously – but its clear that the bible has warning for those with great wealth because God understands the fallen human and his condition. Will I leave the church? Stop tithing? I don’t know. I need more information. It is disturbing for sure.
I also, however, want to echo that I have been drawn into a deeper and more fruitful relationship with God through Elevation (and Pastor Furtick). I come from a very legalistic background growing up in a independent baptist church. The legalism was all a front for trying to justify ourselves to God through works and not focusing on the undeserved grace that we received from God. I’ve learned more about that at Elevation then any other churches I have ever been to. I’ve learned that my endless keeping christian rules has never earned me the grace that I had no right to anyways. Therein lies my conflict – I can testify that I have been drawn into a deeper more meaningful relationship through God here. Or that God has moved in me as I have gone here. For the record I’m college educated, grown up in the church – I am not some naive spring chicken (i hope! lol) that is celeb worshiping a rock star pastor. God has moved greatly in the life of me and my family as we have gone to Elevation.
Lastly, I want to address the just awful mean spirited comments here. Just awful things. I’m not sure how people that identify themselves with Christ can paint other followers/people with such a mean broad brush. I think some of the people here ought to be ashamed. I can understand if Elevation doesn’t suit everyone’s cup of tea. I’ve listened to hundreds of sermons and even Pastor Furtick has said directly that he cares you get involved at some church somewhere if this isn’t the place for you. At the end of the day there are thousands of people that have been baptized at Elevation, have been drawn into small groups at Elevation, that have built meaningful relationships with jesus at Elevation. People that otherwise would not have been reached. Isn’t that worth celebrating? Shouldn’t there be some joy in your hearts that people profess Jesus as Lord? At the end of the day, there is a story behind every person that goes there – a story that so many here seem to want to easily mock and dismiss as just shallow people worshipping a shallow God with a shallow Pastor. I don’t think that is very Christ like at all and I don’t think that is TRUE either.
Thats my .02 cents, feel free to flame away.
Elevator for the past 3 years…
anon wrote:
Could you please give me an example from the New Testament in which one of the apostles became wealthy through following Jesus? Better yet, could you please give me the name of one apostle had a life of ease?
As you know, Jesus could have been born into a castle and had monetary wealth beyond imaging. Why did He choose to live such a life that it was said He had no place to lay His head?
Why do you think the Bible says that it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to pass through the ye of a needle?
Have you ever considered giving your money directly to Christian charities that serve the poor?
Do you think it is better to hear how people actually think about your church than to pretend that everyone likes what is going on?
Why do you think that so many people find Furtick off-putting?
Finally, I am pleased that you cared to comment. Furtick is blessed to have a fair number of people who support his lifestyle and preaching. He couldn’t do it without generous people like yourself. He has benefited greatly from your support.
However, Elevation and Furtick love to jump up and down, saying “Look at us, we love Jesus. Come to church. Here we are.” When you ask people to look at you, you do not get to tell them what they see. If you truly want to bring Jesus to others, take a look at what the “others” might be seeing and think about what image you church might be portraying to the world.
@ anon: I’m afraid I am too pressed for time to compose a proper reply, but I will take the brief liberty (TWW isn’t my blog and I don’t speak as one having authority here, but I am a regular) of thanking you for joining the discussion.
We need dissenting voices here just as much as anyone else; without them we would risk merely becoming a cabal of group-thinkers. I appreciate your candour, I don’t believe your post contained flame (some dissenting visitors do post crassly shameful comments here) nor that it deserves flame in response.
dee wrote:
Lots of assumptions here from you. I never claimed that going into ministry would enrich you. Hence why I’m greatly bothered by what I have read. Why don’t you read what I posted….I acknowledged the stern warning the rich have from Jesus.
I do give money outside of the church. To some Christian organization. Pediatric cancer research. I’ve gone to Haiti to serve as well. Also donated to local charities.Would you like my tax return to prove it?
Don’t bother responding. I’m not interested in engaging you anymore. If you had read my post you would have seen that I am clearly troubled by what I have read but tried to offer to my experience at Elevation. Weighing good and the bad. Furthermore I am commenting on people that are clearly saying just mean spirited things about either Pastor or the “type” of people that go to elevation. If you can’t acknowledge that this goes above and beyond a “respectful” observation then … whatever.
I can’t even get you to acknowledge any joy that the kingdom has grown because people accepted Christ…maybe you would say accepted despite elevation instead of god working through it…but whatever. End of the day people are confessions Christ as King.
Whatever.
Thank you for your thoughtful post.
There is a lot to reply to which I would love to privately, but that is not possible here. I pray that as your children grow up, they will own their own faith and have an unshakeable relationship with Jesus, and that he is truly their Lord. The tragedy I have seen is when the large “church” empire is built around one man’s vision, personality, whatever – we become part of that – and in too many cases (and Furtick is showing all the red flags, which you so eloquently pointed out in the first paragraph of your post, “there is no measure that can explain away the scale of excessiveness. I would lie if I told you that it didn’t trouble me greatly”) when the “emperor” is revealed to have no clothes, our children’s faith, and our own, is shattered.
That is why this website, TWW, has such a following, along with others sites that serve as online places of refuge. People are bearing the pain, the spiritual trauma, of their experience which may have started like yours, and it seemed so good that they ignored all the “red flags” along the way, until one day they were deeply wounded and their illusions ripped away.
Those “mean-spirited” comments you find so troubling, as do I, are often the result of precious ones who were wounded and abused, their faith shattered, crying/screaming out of their pain. They too need that “undeserved grace” you wrote about. The reaction of Mr. Furtick to that unnamed Charlotte news reporter asking questions does not make me hopeful that anyone who raises questions in the empire of Elevation will be meted out anything resembling ‘undeserved grace.’ I hope I am wrong.
Finally,
anon wrote:
But you are.
And if you are a “tithing” member of his organization, you are committed to #4 of The Code – which is one of the most obvious red flags ever.
@ TedS.:
I was in love with Jesus before Elevation and will most decidedly be after. I will certainly place myself in thoughtful consideration of what God is calling me toward. Life is but a series of seasons after all…
Another thing – I am not saying those wounded don’t deserve grace. Not at all. I’m pointing out that I am greatly alarmed and bothered of the crassness of those that love Christ would say/treat others under the same banner.
Anon,
Thanks for your reply.
Yes, some commenters on TWW have been over the top, and I, and others have pointed that out.
But can you really be that upset when you extended your invitation by saying,
“Thats my .02 cents, feel free to flame away” and then people do what you dared them to do? Come on.
And where is the grace in then saying, “Don’t bother responding. I’m not interested in engaging you anymore.’?
Whatever. Don’t leave angry. Stay and engage. You bring a thoughtful, dissenting voice. But if you do storm out of here mad, I implore you – do not ignore the red flags. And do not accept dismissive answers to your questions and concerns from the rulers of the empire.
@ TedS.:
“Dee’s” comment was, paraphrasing, “they sure are glad to have a sucker like you supporting their ministry”
I’m not interesting in anyone responding as such.
I prolly should have left the flame away comment off of my original post.
anon wrote:
I did
anon wrote:
I believe you. My comment struck at something deeper but we will leave it at that.
anon wrote:
It is difficult to get pushback. I know that you thought you had explained yourself well. However, blogging involves some back and forth. One of the reason we blog via posts is that it gives us the opportunity to discuss things more in depth.So, if you are a commenter, be prepared to dialogue beyond one short statement.
anon wrote:
Please quote directly so that I can respond specifically.anon wrote:
I thought it was Christ who did the saving? Have you read my conversion story? Star Trek had something to so with it and I am not being facetious.
anon wrote:
I’ll give you this. At least you didn’t use “haters.”
“Don’t bother responding. I’m not interested in engaging you anymore. If you had read my post you would have seen that I am clearly troubled by what I have read but tried to offer to my experience at Elevation. Weighing good and the bad. Furthermore I am commenting on people that are clearly saying just mean spirited things about either Pastor or the “type” of people that go to elevation. If you can’t acknowledge that this goes above and beyond a “respectful” observation then … whatever. ”
As one who was in and out of mega church for years on consulting projects I can give you my take: I would never trust the views of one who was active in a mega church. I know. That sounds mean. But then, I was a blinded follower,too, looking at the “good” and even paid to defend the “good”.
The problem is they usually cannot see the forest for the trees. And the other problem is they usually have NO IDEA what is going on backstage. And even those that do, look the other way as they have mortgages to pay. When bad stuff comes out, they immediately start defending the “good” they see. But what if the “good” is not really good? What if the good is part of the marketing and cosmetics? We can slap a fish on anything these days.
Sometimes it can take years after leaving that sort of community to really be able to be objective about it and start to see the systemic problems that we helped to further and even pay for!
Furticks own beahvior and words make it clear to many of us not inside the forest. Since Elevation is more cult of personalty than Body, that is the clue there are serious problems.
TedS. wrote:
Thank you.
@ anon:
I am bothered by the crassness as well. I’m wondering if you have read all the comments and observed the crassness from people commenting as Elevation attendees as well? Do you find Steven Furtick crass? I thought his “Hey Haters” video was very crass. Maybe crassness is in the eye of the beholder.
Dee responded to your comment with questions, not crassness. You appeared to be upset because she didn’t respond to you the way you expected her to respond. I am glad God has saved people while they have attended Elevation church. God works everywhere at all times. But that doesn’t negate the conern people have over attitutes and excesses that are being observed.
anon wrote:
You are wrong about that. If you would go back and read my comments on the original post, a number of months ago, you will find that I mean what I say.
Furtick is blessed to have a members like you who will go out of his/her way to defend him or defend the church. That is the reason that the church grows and survives. “Sucker” was not what I was thinking at the time. In fact, I really hope he appreciates those of you who try to present him in a good light. I really mean that!!!! (Repeat 10x)
I have been impressed by the number of people who write to this blog, offering a point of view that is different than ours. If you compare us to other blogs, you will see that we allow even very difficult comments to be posted. That is not the norm.
Look at Chino’s comment who says he/she is from Elevation. We allow ourselves to be called names and do print those names. Now, if the same person calls us the same name a number of times in a row, we might tell them to cut it out since we got the picture.
Anyway, you are welcome to stay or go. This blog exists for those who have been hurt or frustrated by churches. Many of those comments, when seen through that lens, seem more understandable.
I’m bothered by all of it. I don’t defend how other elevation members have responded. I did not like the haters video either (tho – I saw it when it first came out at service – I do agree there is a part of the community that safely criticizes with impunity without offering their own labor or risk – despite that it was crass) I don’t defend Pastor when I see him behave in ways I don’t agree with either.
TedS. wrote:
I cannot wait to share the story of Eagle. It will be coming in the near future and I think it will leave many people startled.
Sometimes, it takes time to see beyond the pain and anger. We get uncomfortable when people don’t say things in a “nice” way. But, it is like an infected boil. First, we have to see it and acknowledge that it is a serious issue. Then, it gets lanced and some antibiotics are given-sometimes a long course of antibiotics. And with God’s grace, it heals up but will always leave a little scar.
Sometimes it works, sometimes it does not and the infection is fatal. I am trying to toe the line in figuring out what is treatable and what is not. I definitely fail at times. However, Eagle will one day be a poster boy for grace.
@ anon:
I often hear people defending big churches like Elevation say things like, “they reached all these people who otherwise would not have been reached.” That is a big statement. And I always wonder, how do you know that? What is it about Elevation that is reaching unreached people? What brought them there? And how do you know that they would not have been reached by some other church? In any case, I think the real test will be checking in on those thousands of people in about 20 years to see where they are.
Also, like Dee said, Elevation begs people to look at them. My first exposure to Furtick was his Hey Haters video. Not a good first impression. Any pastoral authority that he might have had gets erased with stunts like that. And that is his fault. How can he expect adults to take him seriously?
Caleb W wrote:
The research that has gone on in this area shows a very different story. We have written a number of articles showing statistics that megachurches are not reaching the otherwise unreached. They are merely causing a shift of Christians from one church to another.
Please take a look at this post.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/06/07/church-planting-is-it-about-the-gospel-or-acquisition/
Also, baptism numbers do not indicate new, unreached folks. Many people are baptized several times. Also, new baptisms are usually the children of current members. The above article will get you going.
@ anon:
For a different perspective, utilizing numbers, take a look at the claims that megachurches are reaching the unreached.
We have written a number of articles showing statistics that megachurches are not reaching the otherwise unreached. They are merely causing a shift of Christians from one church to another.
Please take a look at this post.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/06/07/church-planting-is-it-about-the-gospel-or-acquisition/
@ dee:
Thanks Dee. Though my questions were mostly rhetorical, I’ll take a look at that article.
The assumption, I think, is often that we do things in this really contemporary (read American consumer culture, second rate entertainment) way, which appeals to and connects with your averaged “unreached” person. I’m quite sure it doesn’t work like that. When you think that your advertising, heavy handed short videos and branded band are the key to reaching people, you’re on the wrong trail…
@ anon:
I sincerely hope your wife has not already signed the agreement which is required to volunteer at elevation.
anon wrote:
I am not concerned about how other Elevation members have responded. Its OK. They are upset.
In fact, I find their responses fascinating and do not take offense. If truth be told, I am somewhat amused by the names we are called. We have a list called “What the world is saying about TWW.” http://thewartburgwatch.com/about-us-the-basics/about-us-our-faq -scroll midway
I do not think of these folks as haters. I think of them as people who do not understand why we do what we do.
So, it takes a lot for us to become offended. I would far rather people tell us what they really think about is than hiding it behind some Christianese pablum.
However, many people do not feel as we do. And, for them, we object to certain things, like the Hey Haters video. Have you seen this amusing takeoff on it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8SLFcOIX_Q
I’ll know when we have made it when someone does this to us!
Caleb W wrote:
And how is it that every mega has a worship leader that somehow was involved in producing “Grammy awards winning music?”
@ dee:
If the Black Eyed Peas can win a grammy, I guess anyone can. 🙂
I just read the article, btw. Great work! Sorry I missed it the first time around.
@ anon:
Not everyone here is a Christian. I’m not sure if I am one or agnostic.
There are a few people who post here who have said they used to be Christian but don’t consider themselves Christian anymore.
A lot of folks posting who no longer consider themselves Christian or who are thinking about leaving the faith are doing so because they have been hurt by Christians or by churches.
I don’t have anything against Furtick in particular, but I do tend to have suspicions or misgivings about this trend I see where the preacher has a lear jet, limo, BMW, wears Armani, has a big house…
Examples of that include Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, T D Jakes, Ed Young Jr, and many others.
Sometimes the only wealthy person in such churches is the preacher, who is being supported by members who are struggling to make ends meet, who do not have lear jets or big houses.
Lastly, as I mentioned on one of the Furtick threads, I’m concerned that much of his preaching (that I’ve heard online) is Furtick-focused (his sermons are liberally filled in personal stories about him and his family), rather than focused on Jesus, which is a trend among seeker-friendly type churches these days, though, not just him.
I think if you’re a newbie to the faith, or leaving a legalistic church, that hearing that sort of preaching might be okay, but after several months or so, you are going to want deeper teaching than another warm and fuzzy one from the preacher, chock filled with stories of his personal life.
To those that do want deeper teaching, Furtick is online screaming at such Christians that they are ‘spiritually fat and lazy’ and they can leave his church to go elsewhere. He made it plain in that one outburst he only cares about evangelization not discipleship, but the Bible says Christians should be into both.
This page mentions it, along with embedded video of Furtick:
Phil Pringle Endorsing Problematic Steve Furtick for Presence Conference 2012
From that page:
Daisy wrote:
This is pretty much what did it for me on the “preaching end”. There were other worrisome “behind stage” things that made it harder and harder to look in the mirror on most days I am ashamed to say– I ignored it for way too long.
But the preaching! Oh my. The shallowness is mind numbing. The entertainment. The “performance”. The “cult of personality”. And yes, it was all about “evangelism” …sure….which really means— grow this church so the money keeps flowing! It is all “good” if people are joining (getting saved?)
I am to the point now I can hardly hear a sermon unless I am listening to be a Berean of sorts. I want interaction. I am done being indoctrinated or entertained.
I am still a Christian because I believe in Free will and don’t blame Jesus Christ for all those who are posers in His Name.
Daisy wrote:
Well, to be fair to Furtick (which aliterates, and which I should probably take somewhere, but it’s late)… anyway, back at the ranch, to be fair to Furtick, I think I know what he means by that. I’m assuming it’s that he doesn’t want people coming to Elevation just as churn or transfer; not that Elevation refuses to disciple anyone. There may be problems at Elevation, and they may be hidden – some people have done very well at the Glasgow church we were thrown out of for being “divisive”, and they were no doubt genuinely saddened and shocked to “learn” that we had “backslidden” (or whatever – and it would have been better if they’d checked with us, of course). But if Furtick means what I assume, then I agree with him on that point at least.
I’ve never listened to a sermon by Furtick and so I can’t comment personally on his stuff. (I do comment on, for instance, Park Fiscal whose sermons I have had occasion to sit through and with whose output I am familiar.) So I have to leave the debate on its merits or otherwise to those of you who are fairly familiar Furtick-followers. But I’ll even give credit to Fiscal when it is due.
On a lighter note, both England and Wales won their respective fitba’ matches tonight. It’s quite a while since England won a big game well.
Scotland wernae playin, bah the way. But they’re no gonnae qualify onyway.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Unfortunately this is exactly who comes to these churches and stats prove it. These megas merely grow by acquisitions from other churches and baptizing children.
anon 1 wrote:
I am a volunteer at Elevation, I was not required to sign such a thing.
So I was talking to my (non-Christian) neighbour in the driveway, and he said, “Hey, have you heard of the Act Like Men show?”
Uhhh…
Turns out he’s a prep cook at an Italian bistro a few blocks from Copps Coliseum, and they got swamped when 30+ guys with Act Like Men t-shirts came in at once. On the way home, he saw the huge neon billboard promoting the event, with giant smirking headshots of all the speakers, and he assumed it was a group of traveling stand-up comics (insert your own joke here). So I told him about it, and he said, “That is so wild that you’re saying it was some sort of Christian event!”
I said, “Why is that wild?”
He said, “Because I thought Jesus was gentle and kind to everybody, and all the guys wearing Act Like Men shirts, they were all jerks! They had this weird kind of faux-macho vibe, with their chests puffed out, and they gave some really creepy attitude to the waitresses…”
I tried to steer the conversation back to Jesus who is real and is awesome, but my neighbour kept on laughing at the whole thing—to someone outside of the bubble, Act like Men sounded like an obvious scam, and coupled with his first-hand experience of watching the Act Like Men men interact with people with arrogance and rudeness…
@ will f:
That’s sad.
A few years ago I read a news article which mentioned some Promise Keepers convention attendees frequenting the local strip clubs. So, what your friend experienced just doesn’t surprise me.
@ Nick Bulbeck: Other Furtick quotes (from c3 Church Watch site): “We don’t teach from Books of the Bible because it gets in the way of evangelism. We don’t offer different kinds of Bible studies because it gets in the way of evangelism. We don’t teach doctrine because it gets in the way of evangelism. If you want to be fed God’s word or have the Bible explained to you then you are a fat lazy Christian and you need to shut up and get to work or you need to leave this church because we ONLY do evangelism.” – Steven Furtick He gets this stuff from his good buddy Ed Young jr .
Anon 1 wrote:
I am only hanging on to Christianity in so far as I believe that Jesus died on the cross and was raised from the dead.
I understand Christianity is based on Jesus and not those who profess His name, but other than unanswered prayer (the onus is on God for that one, as He promises to answer you if you ask and have faith), another facet for me is this:
If and when I see so many who claim to believe Christ, yet they hurt other people (or refuse to help those who are hurting), or who are regularly hypocrites, when I think the Bible teaches one who accepts Christ will show a difference in their life (by their fruit you shall know them, etc), but I don’t see that difference hardly at all from that many professing believers, it leads me to think what is the point?
Christianity does not seem to work most of the time for most people, even if Jesus is God and was raised on the third day, and so forth.
Daisy wrote:
This is one of the big problems. Even if he has the money from his own endeavors and he didn’t receive a penny from Elevation, it is in poor taste to flaunt it in this economy today with so many who cannot even put food on the table. I would NEVER give to a church where the pastor lived like that. EV.ER. I would be giving to people truly in need around me, not lining his closet with more expensive clothes and paying to gas up his jet. It’s sickening to think of the needs going unmet in that church so he can live like that.
How about YOU do an intensive investigation of the needs this world has. That might actually be worthwhile. Tithe is not just about giving money to something, it is someone. Even if a church uses MY money that I freely gave “in worship to God for what He has given to me” it is not my job to ridicule that Church or its leader. What you are doing to the Furticks is TMZ worthy and a waste for anyone who truly loves the Lord and trusts Him. Prayers to you and your career in reporting.
Daisy wrote:
Do you have the actual video or audio for that? Is there a link maybe? I have been attending Elevation for 2 years and I really doubt Pastor Steven said that.
Mary
Did you check the C3 site?
@ brenton: Thank you for your constructive suggestions. They were truly inspiring.
@ Mary: Nick gave you the link to his source. We usually ask our readers to go to the referred source and rad it for themselves. In case you are not familiar with that site, I will save you one step. Go here and read.
http://c3churchwatch.com//?s=Steven+furtick&search=Go
One way to find a quote is to put the quote directly into Google for a search. This quote definitely has play on Google,
dee wrote:
Thank you, I am going through the site right now, there is a lot of info and I am trying to find the video or audio for that specific quote.
Thank you again.
@ Daisy:
Daisy, the only reason why I even respond to your comments about that is because I can relate to them! I went through a similar period. So please do not feel judged. I can relate. I came to the conclusion that “priesthood of believer” can be singular if that is what it comes to. I am glad you are holding onto His death and resurrection. That is enough.
@ Mary:
Comment from site:
I’ve personally listened to the entire sermon that Chris’ video clip came from, twice! I don’t think Chris has taken anything out of context. Anyone who wants to verify Chris’ work can visit Steven Furtick’s church website at elevationchurch.org and listen to the entire sermon. Just skip right past all of the “80’s Rock” sermons, and chose the “Confessions of a Pastor” series and then pick the sermon named “Lots of Christians Get on My Nerves”.
I have come to the conclusion that if Christians get on his nerves, I can say that some pastors get on mine. Good night! Those videos are something else.
@ Daisy:
Oh, there must have been a weird admin thing going on where Deb or Dee or someone was trying to quote my post but their comment got lumped in with mine, as I did not write this part of the post (but it looks like it was part of my comment or the thing I was quoting):
“He gets this stuff from his good buddy Ed Young jr.”
(Not that I disagree with the comment, though, just letting folks know I am not its author. A lot of the seeker friendly guys are teaching-lite, and they proudly bark that they will not teach doctrine or whatever to people who are already Christian) 🙂
Sallie @ A Woman’s Freedom in Christ wrote:
I agree with your post.
Speaking of paying for jet fuel, there was a story about two or three months ago about a preacher who was hitting up his congregation in an e- mail or postcard mailing asking for donations for new blades for his helicopter, and they’re thousands of dollars a piece.
Texas pastor’s (Ira V. Hilliard) helicopter will get new blades, God willing
Sometimes it’s not just that the preacher is flaunting his wealth when his members are going without (which bothers me), but they sometimes spend money on stuff that is, IMHO, rather stupid.
I think you can get through life without a helicopter, fancy coffee machine, or a gilded $23,000 toilet.
Mary wrote:
I’ve given that same link out about three times on two threads. It is on C3 Watch’s site.
Here it is again, with embedded video on the page, and I think this guy provides links to yet other pages or videos or audio:
Phil Pringle Endorsing Problematic Steve Furtick for Presence Conference 2012
You can also Google Furtick’s name and the quotes, and you’ll probably find more pages about it and verifying it.
I’m not sure how many links we can put in per post before they get sent in to moderation. I’ll try two here and see if this gets posted.
More sites with Furtick’s quotes, and I think these have embedded videos of his making the comments:
Pitting Evangelism Against Discipleship
Introducing the Turnstile Church
@ Anon 1:
I hope I did not sound as though I was angry at you in my reply, because I was not 🙂 I was just explaining where I am in my faith journey.
I have an online acquaintance who is where I am now. One of her reasons for rejecting the faith was how shoddy some Christians behaved. I used to have a hard time understanding where she was coming from, since I understood the faith to be founded by Jesus, but I kind of get where she was coming from now.
More pastors living lavishly:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T49VtHl_Fi4&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DT49VtHl_Fi4
I watched part of the you tube video and it made me sick. I couldn’t finish.
Daisy wrote:
We are freaking them out. This video has been pulled due to “copyright infringement.” Steven Furtick is a wuss!
@ Daisy:
Fantastic. If only Park Fiscal professed the same disdain for doctrine, the church worldwide would be much the better for it.
@ dee:
Very interesting. If we are all just “haters” of Furtick’s “move of God,” then his videos should be proof of how awesome he is. Right? Gotta love it.
dee wrote:
Oh my. 🙂
I found a couple other copies still up.
This is audio, video (you hear his voice, but there is not footage of him):
Elevation Church: Not For Believers
Video and audio:
Steven Furtick – What is the purpose of church?
There might be more copies out there. I only looked for a few minutes.
Even if all these video/audio files get removed (I just saved both those to my hard drive, though), there are still many web pages of people who provide transcripts of his commentary.
@ Daisy: Please hold onto your copies. People who listen to this balderdash and think it is “good stuff” need to get a reality check.
BeenThereDoneThat wrote:
Own it! And next time ask “which God.” For example, ask if they are following the Alpha and Omega or Plutus-the Greek god of wealth.
@ The Belted Cow: I am sitting on my keyboard hands, holding off discussing this new show about prosperity pastors living lavishly. Why? I am absolutely sure that some of these guys-Furtick, MacDonald, will decry those pastors and their theology. When that occurs, and I bet it will, old Dee shall pounce!!!!
Joe wrote:
Good. It means you are not immune to the truth unlike some of his followers who cannot, for the life of them, understand what the big deal is. You are maintaining your sanity.
Sister, you have been brain-washed. You better run for the hills before Furtick demands that you drink more of his koolaid. THINK…….This is NOT normal!
@ Bridget:
Michelle wrote:
Neighbor, did you link the correct comment? If so, can you explain further, please?
Fred
I think it is linked to the wrong “neighbor.”
Michelle wrote:
Hi Michelle,
You may have misunderstood my comment, or I may have been unclear, or you may have quoted the wrong person.
You can be sure of one thing, no koolaid drinker here 🙂 Most of that comment was tongue-n-cheek regarding the excuses and explanations that these types of leaders will feed their followers . . .
The first paragraph was a quote from Tom R. that I didn’t quote properly.
Sorry for any confusion!
Where to begin… I’m considering joining Elevation. Given the feedback on this forum, one might equate that to considering “starting smoking.”
I’m married, four kids, and was raised Catholic. You know, gotta go every week type of Catholic. I haven’t spent many hours reading a bible, short of the two readings and gospel in church for a few dozen years.
But, I simply must say that Elevation makes it easy to become engaged in the dialog in support of Jesus. My family has attended church hundreds of times, but the discussions resulting from mass in the Catholic Church were underwhelming. We did not feel moved or closer to God no matter which Catholic Church we attended, and the Catholic teaching (at least what I picked up) was to not follow other Christian denominations. Heck, they even said not to take communion in another type of church.
Fast forward to 2013. We’ve been to Elevation a few times. The logistics of child care is seamless. To me, Furtick comes across more of a motivational speaker than a priest (more correctly called a “pastor”?). I enjoy his discussion and find myself thinking about “What would Jesus do?” and “How can I best honor Him?”. That’s fairly new for me, and I attribute that perspective to Elevation. Now that my eyes are open, perhaps I should check out Lutheran/Episcopal/Baptist, etc. But why would I seek out an alternate source for spiritual guidance and perspective, when I feel more connected now than I ever have before?
This is likely a poor forum to seek these answers, but I must admit I’m concerned (troubled?) by the building of a 16,000 sq. ft. house. What are Furtick’s motivations? Intentions? While I don’t especially care about what others want, I have been raised to believe that priests take a vow of poverty. I don’t know if/how that translates to large houses.
James wrote:
Does it really matter? Think-is that how Jesus and the apostles lived? How much money did Paul make off the church?
Did he write books and get paid for them? Oh, that’s right-he wrote the letters that we read each week and I don’t think he made a dime off them. In fact, he worked asa tentmaker in order to support himself.
Also, 16,000 square feet????? Good night!
Bill Rogers wrote:
…wow…just…wow.
smh
Mr.H wrote:
If they offered the wonderful Ruth’s Chris shoestring potatoes, I might sit through one sermon. (Sipping on a fine glass of wine to keep me calm, of course!)
I am not enamored of the RC steakhouse, at this RC house, we do not eat but small amounts of red meat, and then rarely. The world generates enough food to feed everybody IF we did not feed a lot of it to cattle, and only raised cattle on grass and/or what remains after the edible portions have been gathered to feed humans. That would mean a lot less beef, pork, etc., less chicken as well, so those would become more expensive. My grandparents and others of that generation fed pigs with scraps from the table and the left over from harvesting peas, beans, corn. Beef cattle were raised on grass and the hay remaining after threshing, corn stalk silage, the pea and bean hulls and stalks, etc. No human edibles fed to make fat animals. We may have to return to that way of life to have enough food to prevent starvation in much of the world. So when you eat that steak, think about the five or ten people who could have been fed every day that that beef was being fed grain to make it a “Ruth Chis” worthy steak.
Lets see……………………………… Steve’s degree is in communications with a side in theology, and I’d say he is using his main degree right now to justify the cool aid. The church he runs functions on the tithe system, I wonder if they keep the other 600 or so Old Testament laws as well. Someone already said the people in the seats are getting exactly what they want for their money. A rock concert followed by what they want to hear, presented in a “very special” way every Sunday.
Y’all really should know what you are talking about before you post this stuff. WOW!
Karen Luke wrote:
Are you referring to Arce’s post about steak vs chicken recipes, or?
[[MOD: Entire comment deleted. Physical threats are not allowed. And also don't say much about the virtues of the supporters of Steven Furtick.]]
Bill Rogers wrote:
Sweetie, you just go ahead and buy your pastor the biggest house you want him to have. I must object, however, when you take over the language I speak and change the meanings of the words. Furtick is NOT humble, he is the opposite of humble. Go to your dictionary, look up “humble”, “proud”, “ostentatious”, and “braggart.” Then come back and tell us which words REALLY describe him. Remember, we all know what those words mean, so you’re going to have to read the actual definitions. Do your pastor a favor and let him know what “humble” means. It’s obvious he has no idea.
@ dee:
Truth! I am assuming he was kidding because calling a town/church a harlot while saying Pastor Steven is great… really? The teachings in that church are a little off if that is the case. Ha!
@ Bill Rogers:
You have to be making these kinds of comments to get a reaction. Seriously? It has been shown in many studies over the last few years that what people desire of a church is no longer a “cool” church with lights and action and swank, and Generation y and z’ers are looking for a raw/humble/genuine “experience” at church. What has driven me from the church is this ridiculous notion of “mega” money and greed. I am looking for a catacomb like service… real.
@ James:
I think you bring up some good points. As humans we are genuinely looking for an emotional connection with others, so of course the same goes a lot of time in our interaction with Christ. While I think we as society have vilified pastors having nice things, there is a point where a pastor has to look at himself and figure out his own motivation for desiring such a home. Peyton manning just bought a 16,000 ft house on 3 acres. I know for me I want a bigger house too. I live in a 1500 square foot house but I would like 300-500 more square feet and a different layout to make my house more suited to our lifestyle. And a family such as the Duggard’s, with 19 children and many grandchildren on the way built a 7,000 square foot house that obviously fits their family. I think the point is this… when your house becomes more than you need primarily because you “can”…that is a heart condition. Paul said that everything is permissible but not everything is beneficial. This house has now taken forefront of Steven’s ministry. It is a blight. For all of the good things the church is doing, it will now be overshadowed by his desire for a McMansion and his blase attitude when addressing that home. And for his trying to get ahead of it. If he truly wanted to get in front of the story, he could have spoken about the church and wealth. Rather than deflecting. As “parishioners” for lack of better, we look to our leaders to set an example. Right now, Steven’s example says that getting the desires of your heart is well and good. And storing up treasures on earth is acceptable. But is it beneficial? That is my question. Is it necessary? What does this house mean to him? Is it something he needs or it something for him to look at other pastors and say look at me, i have a 16,000 square foot home…im successful. I hope the condition of his heart is one of humility. I hope he uses his home and his land as a place to bless people. But I think the example he set is really not the best. To whom much is given, much is required.
http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2013/10/22/4407782/elevation-pastor-building-big.html
The Observer is on the story —!
Nickname wrote:
The comments following the article are great! 🙂
Look at TWW’s home page. Investigative report airing tonight as well. Steven Furtick’s “not so great “house is bigger than the wealthiest man in North Carolina.
@ Karen Luke:
Karen Luke wrote:
We do, that’s the problem.
I am a member of Elevation and Until you have been a part of this church and see what really goes on through the church, please be respectful of those whose lives the church (not the preacher) has touched. Like all churches, religions, organization…. there is something for everyone depending on what you need in your life and what you believe you are searching for.
To judge without knowing is immature and states volumes (or less than) about yourself.
I think the captions below the video are immature and opinionated (just like my statement)… Know what your talking about before you waste your time editing such a video. I think its comical that those that disagree with the church and what Pastor Furtick is doing for many and I applaud all the time and attention you are giving!!
My college student did an internship at the church and was told to read two books before starting. Quess who the author was? Pastor Furtick Interesting that they would require that, don’t you think? I paid for the books so I figure I bought a knob on a kitchen cupboard or something.
Missy B wrote:
I am sure Steven fell all over himself to express his gratitude for your assist in helping him get really cute knobs.
G Lynn wrote:
Dee bows low, waiting for the flowers to be thrown.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
That Ruth’s Chris shit is actually straight off the Elevation website. It’s actually listed as one of their core values, if you can believe it.
lutz
Please get me a link ASAP!
#8 We are Ruth’s Chris, Not Golden Corral
http://elevationchurch.org/the-code
The whole list reads like something Rev Jeff Breakfast wrote.
@ dee
Maybe lulz means this (it looks like it’s from Furtick’s personal site, unless this is a Furtick parody site?)
BE RUTH’S CHRIS, NOT GOLDEN CORRAL
A snippet (from stevenfurtick.com):
@ Haitch:
Ooh, yes, it’s on that page too. It’s number 8 on the list (from Elevation Church’s site).
I had never heard of Ruth’s Chris before, but I have eaten at Golden Corrals.
That is a weird contrast for a church to make.
I would have preferred a “We at Acme Church strive to be more Olive Garden, not McDonald’s,”
or, “We at Acme Church strive to be more like original formula Coca-Cola and less like New Coke” (never mind I prefer Pepsi). 🙂
Do other authors get questioned how they spend their money? He gets paid by the church to do a job. If he has another souce of income, he shouldn’t be obligated to account for his financial decisions to the church and definitely not the public.
Alot of energy wasted on this topic.
Use the energy to make a positive difference in someone’s life…impact them for Christ. The Devil is loving this pot stirring.
I am not a member of this church so I do not know Pastor Furtick. If he is building this house with money earned from his books then it is nobody’s business but his own and if not then he is answerable to God, the people of the church and maybe certain government officials if fraud is involved. I have to ask my self why would this reporter be trying so hard to bring down a church that has given a million dollars to other organizations doing God’s work and working hard at seeing people saved from their sins unless he is working for Satan? If Pastor Furtick is doing something wring then God will punish him better than anyone on this earth will and if he is not then God will continue to bless him as He sees fit. One thing for sure no one can out do God, so either way God will handle this and for the reporter who started all this, if you have been stirring the pot with lies and false accusations against a man that God has called to preach who is doing as God wants him to then may God have mercy on you because the Bible records correctly and history substantiates that those who go against God do not live happily ever after.
Sandi Markle wrote:
Could you please let the writers of the Elevation apologetics team know that the “I’m not a member of the church but….its wonderful, its his business, etc. is not working. It sounds contrived.
Sandi Markle wrote:
Then,there is the typical “lies” and “God is going to get you for this” nonsense. Is there anyone on staff over there that has any sense of subtlety and debate. Heck, I could set up an excellent response to this whole debacle but I do not think anyone does clever over there.
If this response cycle is any indication of the sophistication that is inherent at Elevation, Bojangles Chicken describes you better than Ruth’s Chris. Start with cheap and progress to heartburn.
T wrote:
Sandi Markle wrote:
Proof! Good night!! You are all using the same phrases. Chunks, Chunks, my man, are you listening? Are you writing this stuff???
T wrote:
Yes. Shhhhh . . . Nothing to see here. Move along . . . move along.
I just think too much is going into trying to bring someone’s faults to light. I would think a better way is to pray for Steven Furtick and Elevation Church. God doesn’t need you or a reporter to bring to light any wrong doing (if there is any to reveal). God has got it covered. We need to concentrate on how we can change ourselves not start trying to ‘change’ everyone else. Use your energy to make someone’s day with doing something nice for them for no reason at all. Negativity breeds negativity.
BTW, I don’t attend Elevation Church BUT I love the Lord and I know that HE doesn’t need us to figure this out.
T wrote:
And you assume we’re not, because . . . ?
And you assume we’re not, because . . . ?
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm! You can figure that one out all on your own.
@ T:
. . . Because you’re a troll! You’re right. I did figure that out on my own.
T wrote:
I am sorry, T, but this is getting waaaay too funny. Now you have joined the throng of those who have not attended Elevation but just love it.
“Stirring the Pot”
“I don’t attend Elevation”
I have decided to do a post on the drive by repeaters comments. These are all first timers who all use the same phrases.
Advice to Chunks: Time to change course.
@ BeenThereDoneThat:
Show some compassion, BTDT.
These are drive by commenters (a whole slew of new commenters) who have been given a script. They are actually using the same phrases. So much so, that I am planning on doing a post on this phenomenon. This is the first time that I have seen it here. I usually hear this on TV when one political party or another repeat phrases that have been given to them by the party for talking points.
You put “T” on the spot. You asked a question. How terribly mean of you! They are not trained to answer questions. They are only trained to write talking points that”prove” there is a groundswell of unrelated people who all love the fact that Steven is building a mansion because “he deserves it.”
Here is a repeat of my comment from above. It is too funny!
T just showed up on the blog along with a few others.
dee wrote:
@ T:
You said “God would take care of it.”
Maybe, but not how you seem to assume he will.
I don’t know how many times I have to link to 1 Corinthians 5 to demonstrate this biblical concept for people who defend preachers who have been caught in questionable conduct.
God often works through people.
God expects Christians to keep tabs on other self professing Christians and discipline them or stop associating with them, if need be.
Jesus warned that false teachers would sneak in among true believers and told Christians to be on the look out for them.
God delegates some responsibilities to Christians.
If Furtick has been in the wrong, how do you suppose God will handle that, what is most likely:
1. God working to meter discipline on Furtick via Christians and/or courts
or
2. God sending winged, sword-wielding angels to smite Furtick
or
3. Jesus will appear personally to Furtick and ask him to confess/repent (if the house deal is in fact shady)
I would guess God will likely go with option 1, not 2 and 3 is not common.
@ Sandi Markle:
For the same reason reporters have always done exposes on other preachers, such as Joyce Meyers, Benny Hinn, Robert Tilton, Jimmy Swaggert, and Jim Bakker. Why should Furtick be exempt from investigation?
@ dee:
Sorry, Dee. I’ll stand down. But may I say that you have most definitely hit a nerve. There’s far too much protest for there to be “nothing to this.”
OK putting the sarcasm aside I want to ask a question.
Looking for answers not shots at me for being a “first timer”, non-attending Elevation supporter, etc. Seriously here….I’m trying to view this from another angle.
Question/discussion:
What does it matter what this Pastor makes and whether he reveals it or not? What size his home is? No one makes people give to the church. It is a decision people make on their own. Also, no one is made to join this church.
Looking for well thought out feedback and discussion.
dee wrote:
I just saw a blog post or comment somewhere yesterday that technically, Elevation church does not have any members.
In some statement on their site and/or in a statement by Furtick I saw/read, he/they said they do not believe in membership, they believe in “participation.”
So technically, you can go to Elevation every single week, teach Sunday School there, tithe ten percent to Elevation, and hang out with Furtick weekly, and you are only regarded by the preacher as a “participator,” not as a “member.”
That means the people showing up on this blog saying, “I am not a member, but…” may be playing word games or being disingenuous.
Here it is:
Elevation Church – The 4GsAt Elevation, we don’t stress membership – we emphasize participation. We are not a church of consumers and we encourage all who attend to actively participate in what God is doing at Elevation.
The ways you can get involved include inviting friends and family, volunteering, creating community in an eGroup, and giving back to God through tithing.
We call these categories of involvement the 4Gs. So, to make sure the folks visiting here are being accurate, maybe we should be asking them, not if they are ‘members’ at Elevation, but do they ‘participate’ at Elevation, do they ‘regularly attend’ Elevation, or do they ‘consider Elevation their church’?
T wrote:
Any pastor who builds a house that is bigger than the home of the richest man in North Carolina has already answered your question by his action.
The church has been turned into a enterprise and Jesus had a bit of a problem with this. The witness of Elevation Church is damaged because most people realize exactly what this action means.
Now, you can decide if that is well thought out. But, then again, I have written a number of posts that carefully explain my thoughts on the matter. Since you have not referred to them, then I guess you have already judged me “not well thought out.”
Just wait until I have some fun tomorrow on the sham that is called a “compensation” committee.
T wrote:
You have not responded as to the reason for those shots. Are you implying total innocence in your comments?
T wrote:
For the same reasons it grieves or angers Christians (and even some atheists) who get upset seeing Benny Hinn, Rod Parsley, Robert Tilton, Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swagger, Jack Schapp, and other preachers who claim to act in the name of Christ, who get caught sexually attacking people or financially ripping off people.
Do you not get the least bit upset thinking of how TD Jakes, Benny Hinn, etc, claim to act in the name of Christ but take the money they are sent by trusting Christians, and spend it on unnecessary luxuries, such as private jets, trips to the Bahamas, and countless Armani suits?
I think most Christians who give money to these guys assume the money is going for legitimate purposes, for mostly feeding the poor, paying the heating bill for the church building, etc.
I read every so often in the paper or internet about senior citizens I have never met who get swindled out of their money by secular scammers.
I don’t know those elderly victims or the con artists personally, but it makes me angry to see such people be taken advantage of.
It’s the same concept at work with people who get upset that a preacher, who you would think would be living in a manner most would consider modestly (as Jesus did), is instead living like a NBA ball player or a rock star.
And no, I do not think preachers should live in dire poverty, but acquiring a 16,000 sq ft house (Furtick) or buying a gilded, $23,000 toilet (Meyer) seems excessive.
I do not know about Furtick in particular, but the litlle old ladies who give to preachers they see on TBN are often made to believe by the preacher or TBN host(Paul Crouch Sr) that if they are in a hard spot, if they are dying of cancer or having financial problems, if they will only kick the TV minister a few hundred bucks that God will erase all their problems.
Yes, these people are not being force into sending their money to the TV preachers, but sometimes people are hurting so badly, are so desperate, they will believe in anything, which these preachers know. they are preying on weak and vulnerable people.
This whole line of questioning disturbs me on another level, because it seeks to blame the victim, like in conversations on other sites about “if a girl gets drunk at a party, and does not put up a fight if a guy comes on to her, is it still rape if the guy has sex with her, did she not choose to drink, nobody forced her to attend the party?”
– The obvious answer to that is yes, it is still rape, and that it is even up for debate or even a question bothers me.
@ BeenThereDoneThat: No, do not stand down. i was being facetious. Please feel free to respond to his latest question. But, be careful. He only wants “well thought out discussion.” My guess-nothing we say will be well thought out.
T wrote:
When you ask people to sacrifice and donate money in the name of the Lord, it is important to know if the money is going to do the Lord’s work or just to line somebody’s pockets. Does the church spend most of it’s money on supporting it’s members in growing in Christ, food shelves, mission work, and otherwise helping those in need in addition to spreading the Gospel; or does the church spend much of it’s money on maintaining its ‘minister’ and his cronies in a life style that it’s members can’t even imagine?
If people are going to be asked in the name of God to give money, shouldn’t they be able to have the information available to determine for themselves that it’s going to do God’s work? Just because you call yourself a “church” and ask for donations in the name of God doesn’t absolve you from accountability for how you spend it. Jesus and the Old Testament prophets were very clear on that. Just ask the money changers in the Temple.
T wrote:
It matters greatly what kind of foundation a church is built on — what it’s goals and aspirations are. Jesus said you *cannot* serve God and money, for you *will* come to hate one and love the other. The history of the church has proven His words over and over again. What’s trending at Elevation is alarming. When money, riches, wealth, and status become an idol in a church, people are going to be hurt eventually if not already. If you haven’t already done your due diligence to research the history of this blog, I’ll just tell you that the authors care about people who have been hurt by churches.
@ T: Let’s start with an incredibly unbelievable statement by your pastor. “It’s not that great of a house.”
Any man or woman who believes that a 16,000 sq ft house is not that great appears to be dangerous or deranged. How many people in Charlotte have a house as nice as Furtick’s? Can you imagine how he this makes him appear to those who might give to the church? “So what if I blew a million on presents for the staff? A million isn’t that great of a sum.”
@ T:
It is a travesty to bling Christ, especially in this time in our nation when so many people are on the edge of poverty, much less the billions across the world who are hungry all the time. Jesus made it a priority to help the sick/disabled, poor, needy. He also made it a priority to criticize the wealthy and legalistic.
We generously believe that the people of Elevation are our brothers/sisters in Christ. It is the responsibility of siblings to let each other know when they are going off the deep end. Some of us are disgusted by our siblings’ selfishness.
When we openly do things contrary to the life/teachings of Jesus, people everywhere see. When arrogance and defensiveness are the responses to pushback, rather than remorse and transparency, the view that people have of God is further cheapened. Your witness has become destructive to his name.
Lastly, a pastor is a servant. A servant doesn’t live better than those he serves.
@ dee: Or he is a reincarnation of Marie Antoinette. (Let them eat cake).
@ dee:
I wonder too if part of it is that he lives in a bubble. If he spends all or most of his time hanging out with other wealthy mega church guys (Ed Young Jr), and he visits them in their big houses, I can see how he can get the idea that everyone lives that way.
I saw a reality show once where a teen girl got very snotty and entitled. Her parents had a perfectly nice 2000 sq ft house with palm trees in the backyard, etc, but she said it was a “dump.”
Her parents promptly made her spend the next weekend helping build a homeless American family (who had nothing) a home via Habitat for Humanity.
After spending time around that family for a day and working on their home, she went to her Mom in tears. It finally got through to her that the two story house in the burbs she was living in was paradise compared to how some people have it.
Maybe guys like Furtick need to spend more time around different types of people to be brought back to reality
Most of us (even middle class folks), do not have gilded toilets, several cars (one is expensive enough to own), or own fancy $20,000 coffee machines.
T wrote:
For many years I donated to a charity for veterans. Recently, due to some diligent research (which I should have done much earlier), I discovered that only about 1% of the money donated trickled down to the veterans association. Most was designated to the CEOs, marketing and advertising. I found a different organization where 1% went to the CEO and staff and about 80% went where it was supposed to.
If we are called to be good stewards, it necessitates proper use of our money to ensure its going where we thought it was going. If the pastor is benefitting primarily as the CEOs are, we need to know that. Financial records ought to be available to the congregation so wise decisions can be made as to whether or not the money is being used for the Lord’s work (missions, poor, widows, sick, etc.) or going to build an empire that reflects a very different image of what the church is.
just my opinion….
Points taken. Thanks for the feedback.
Just picking everyone’s brain for some insight in different ways this is viewed not stirring up hate. Thanks to the authors of this site. I would not hesitate to say everyone on this site has been hurt by or through a church at some point. My hurt resulted in me leaving the church after 15 years BUT it was just a building and I’m a stronger person for it.
Reading all these post & reading about different churches re-confirms my opinion that THE CHURCH as we have established in this modern day is not what Christ laid out in the Bible. And that is just my opinion……
T wrote:
My opinion too.
@T
1 Timothy 6:9-11 9 But those who desire to be rich fall into temptation, into a snare, into many senseless and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs. 11 But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.
@ T: Perhaps this quote sums it up for me
“Shun, as you would the plague, a cleric who from being poor has become wealthy, or who, from being nobody has become a celebrity.”
—Jerome
@ dee:
I do not live in Charlotte and have never attended Elevation Church. I simply said what I feel. God will take care of His own and also the false teachers believe it or not it will happen.
@ Daisy:
I was not suggesting that Furtick was above investigation just what was the motive behind it, Apparently I have been taken for a newby which is far from the truth but then perhaps hearing someone who can form their own opinion about things has upset some on here.
Sandi Markle wrote:
And believe it or not, we are called to out the false teachers! Thank you very much. And you don’t live that far from Charlotte.
Sandi Markle wrote:
Have you actually read this blog? This is a blog written by people for people who have formed their own opinion.
Sandi Markle wrote:
And you think you understand anyone’s motives, including your own? As my pastor says “Even on my best days, my motives are mixed.”
@ Sandi Markle:
“but then perhaps hearing someone who can form their own opinion about things has upset some on here.”
++++++++
far from it. you expressed your view, Daisy responded with her view, that is all. people are free to opine and disagree.
dee wrote:
BREAKING NEWS
Judge rules against tax-free housing for clergy
MADISON, Wis. — A federal judge has struck down a law that gives clergy tax-free housing allowances, a decision that could have far-reaching financial ramifications for pastors across the United States.
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2022321470_clergyhousingxml.html
This is a very big deal. Quite frankly, I have long wondered about this allowance tax exemption. There are others who believe that churches should also not be exempt from property taxes that provide for police and fire protection, streets, sidewalks, street lighting, etc. If this one is upheld, expect more.
An Attorney wrote:
TedS. wrote:
i cannot wait for the howls from the guys in the pulpits who have long maintained silence over the guys who get $250,000 housing allowances. It is their silence that led to this. Guys like Furtick, Young and others do not need the allowance.