EChurch@Wartburg – 10.6.13

Welcome to a Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg Silhouette at Sunset

Here Is Our Order of Worship

If you are new to EChurch, please click on this link for an explanation​

The Trinitarian Prayer of John Stott link

Good morning heavenly Father, good morning Lord Jesus, good morning Holy Spirit.
Heavenly Father I worship you as the creator and sustainer of the universe.
Lord Jesus, I worship you, Saviour and Lord of the world.
Holy Spirit, I worship you, sanctifier of the people of God.
Glory to the Father, and to the Son and to the Holy Spirit.
Heavenly Father, I pray that I may live this day in your presence and please you more and more.
Lord Jesus, I pray that this day I may take up my cross and follow you.
Holy Spirit, I pray that this day you will fill me with yourself and cause your fruit to ripen in my life:
love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
Holy, blessed and glorious Trinity, three persons in one God, have mercy upon me.

Prayer of St. Benedict link

O gracious and holy Father,
give us wisdom to perceive you,
diligence to seek you,
patience to wait for you,
eyes to behold you,
a heart to meditate upon you,
and a life to proclaim you;
through the power of the Spirit of Jesus Christ, our Lord.

Scripture Reading: Hebrews 13:17 (Bible Gateway)

Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. [a] Let them do this with joy and not [b] with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you.

"Dear Lord,
I give you my hands to do Your work;
I give You my feet to go Your way;
I give You my eyes to see as You see;
I give You my tongue to speak Your words;
I give You my mind that You may think in me;
I give You my spirit that You may pray in me.
Above all, I give You my heart that You may love in me – love the Father and love all humankind.
I give You my whole self, Lord, that You may grow in me, so that it is You who lives, works and prays in me.
(From Helpful Prayers link)

The Lord's Prayer

Our Father, who art in heaven, 
Hallowed be thy Name. 
Thy kingdom come. 
Thy will be done, 
On earth as it is in heaven. 
Give us this day our daily bread. 
And forgive us our trespasses, 
As we forgive those who trespass against us. 
And lead us not into temptation, 
But deliver us from evil. 
For thine is the kingdom, 
and the power, 
and the glory, 
for ever and ever.



EChurch@Wartburg – 10.6.13 — 6 Comments

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    Thanks for clarifying the true meaning of Hebrews 13:17 Wade! It made perfect sense when explained as you did. I agree.

    Early in your sermon (or “your talk” as Eagle might say:) you said that the KJV “butchered” that verse. But when I compared a number of other translations I have on e_Sword, I found the majority butcher it by using the word obey, authority, orders, etc. I found that disconcerting as few pastors most likely don’t explain it as you did leaving their congregations to believe they are some kind of authority to be obeyed without reservation. See here:

    Hebrews 13:17

    (ASV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them:

    (ESV) Obey your leaders and submit to them

    (GNB) Obey your leaders and follow their orders.

    (GW) Obey your leaders, and accept their authority.

    (ISV) Continue to obey your leaders and to be submissive to them

    (KJV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves:

    (LITV) Yield to those taking the lead of you, and submit

    (MKJV) Yield to those leading you, and be submissive

    (NAS77) Obey your leaders, and submit to them;

    (NASB) Obey your leaders and submit to them

    (RV) Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit to them:

    (YLT) Be obedient to those leading you, and be subject

    You also mentioned a scenario that might entail some advice such as, “you’re gambling too much,” or “working too hard.” That was followed by “We are nobody’s Holy Spirit.” I assume the former wouldn’t be spoken by a pastor to a member. Am I right? I don’t think a pastor should offer opinions or direction about someone’s personal life unless asked. Do you agree? In other words, the persuasion a pastor provides is done so within the confines of an assembly rather than an intrusion into their personal family life, employment, recreation, etc. Hope that makes sense.

    Thanks for all you do in service of the faithful. Thank you, Deb, as well!

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    “I don’t think a pastor should offer opinions or direction about someone’s personal life unless asked.”

    I agree. Sometimes, however, the request comes from another loved one or family member and an “intervention” occurs — but again, I never initiate, only when requested.

    I really appreciate you taking the time to look up every translation of Hebrews 13:17. My only response to the translation using the word “obey” is what I said in the “talk.” The word, pathos, means “to persuade,” and because it is in the middle voice, it can ONLY mean “Allow yourself to be persuaded by those who guide you.”

    The LITV comes closest “Yield to those leading you – and “submit to Christ.”

    Again, thanks for your comment and interest!

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    Wade, and others who wish to contribute, I also found this to be a very refreshing perspective, and one I would love to wholeheartedly agree with. Yet, just about every teaching I’ve ever heard about the role of pastors differs. As you, or anyone has time, I’d truly appreciate you responding to the claims below, as communicated by John Piper. These are not strictly his ideas, just some he put together in this article. Personally, I do not see membership in this manner, although I do see the idea of “local church” throughout the NT. To me, this is more of a proximity thing, and not the ten different “churches” on one main street.

    Excerpts from John Piper’s “How Important is Church Membership?” (Desiring God)
    3) Christians Required to Submit to Their Leaders

    Church membership is implied in the biblical requirement of Christians to be submitted to a group of church leaders, elders, or pastors. The point here is that without membership, who is it that the New Testament is referring to who must submit to a specific group of leaders? Some kind of expressed willingness or covenant or agreement or commitment (that is, membership) has to precede a person’s submission to a group of leaders.

    Consider the way the New Testament talks about the relationship of the church to her leaders.

    Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they are keeping watch over your souls, as those who will have to give an account. (Hebrews 13:17)

    We ask you, brothers, to respect those who labor among you and are over you (proistamenous humon) in the Lord and admonish you, and to esteem them very highly in love because of their work. (1 Thessalonians 5:12–13)

    Let the elders who rule well (hoi kalos proestotes presbuteroi) be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. (1 Timothy 5:17)

    How is this leadership and this submission going to work if there is no membership defining who has made the commitment to be led and who has been chosen as leaders? If we downplay the importance of membership, it is difficult to see how we could take these commands to submit and to lead seriously and practically.

    4) Shepherds Required to Care for Their Flock

    Church membership is implied in the way the New Testament requires elders to care for the flock in their charge. Of course elders can extend their love to anyone and everyone, and should, within the limits of their ability. But the question is whether the Bible tells elders that they are to have a special responsibility and care for a certain group—a group of members. Consider Acts 20:28 where Paul tells the elders how to care for their flock.

    Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.

    This verse does not say elders cannot visit unbelievers or those who are not yet members. But it does make clear that their first responsibility is to a particular flock. How are they to know who their flock is? Who are we as elders and pastors responsible for? For whom will we give an account to God?

    The way Peter speaks to the elders in 1 Peter 5 is even more clear on this point. Verses 2–3: “Shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; not domineering over those in your charge (tov kleron), but being examples to the flock.”

    “Those in your charge” (your portion, your lot) implies that the elders knew whom they were responsible for. This is just another way of talking about membership. If a person does not want to be held accountable by a group of elders or be the special focus of the care of a group of elders, they will resist the idea of membership. And they will resist God’s appointed way for them to live and be sustained in their faith.

    This is all taken from an article by John Piper as linked below:

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    Wade Burleson wrote:

    I really appreciate you taking the time to look up every translation of Hebrews 13:17.

    I’d like to take credit, but can’ If you know anything about the e-Sword electronic Bible, you just choose a verse and press the “compare” tab and it automatically compares the verse in every translation you have downloaded. I have 14 – two of them NASB and KJV include the Hebrew and Greek numbers for all words. Included are 14 Bible Dictionaries and about 10 Commentaries; i.e. Gill, Albert Barnes, Adam Clark, Vincent Word Studies, to name a few.

    Anyway, thanks for your reply and I agree with the LITV (Literal Translation Version) using “yield.” And I understand the need for an “intervention-type” approach when requested.

    Thanks again!

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    The e-Sword electronic Bible is free for the download and comes with a large number of free components. The NASB isn’t free because the Lockman Foundation requires a fee of $25 if I remember correctly. Even though the e-Sword is free, I send a donation occasionally because I so appreciate the work he does with continual updates and improvements.

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    Excellent questions. I do not have time to respond to each of them, but would direct you to and do a search in the search engine for words like “authority” “elders” “church” etc… You will find a host of articles that address your questions. In brief, “elders” in Scripture speaks of those who are ‘older.’ There is NO inherent authority in any believer, for all authority resides in Christ who is the head of the church, and we are the body. The problems within the church is an excessive infatuation with authority, governance, submission and control. The only One to whom submission belongs is Christ. Everyone else loves, persuades, supports, encourages, etc…