An epic fail by Harvest Bible Chapel elders and James MacDonald.
In our post on the HBC elder board's infamous video we made the following remark.
I am suspicious that someone might arouse the current elders from their stupor and they will see the error of their ways and the video will disappear, never to be seen again.
We were not let down by the sorriest excuse of "biblical" manhood that we have seen in at least a week or so. (Sarcasm intended).
James MacDonald made the following statement in that video.
And that when the elders speak collectively in agreement, they speak for God to our church.
Apparently, James MacDonald and the HBC Elder Borg Collective hold the copyright on God's words. Yesterday, they used "biblical" legal action aimed at Paul Dohse at Paul's Passing Thoughts link for "copyright infringement."
Harvest Bible Chapel has filed a complaint against PPT with YouTube claiming copyright infringement. The complaint concerns the infamous, and haughty video by James MacDonald and four of his elders. The Elephant’s Debt .com reported on the video here.
The validity of the complaint is very questionable, crippled PPT’s media operations yesterday (and continues to do so), and the information is being forwarded to our attorney. As far as we can ascertain at this time, the video was a public statement/announcement and not covered under copyright laws.
To quote Ted S- TWW reader
Dee & Deb and the TWW community –
That post above may have been easily overlooked because of all the posts on this thread – but if it is true, it represents some truly OUTRAGEOUS and PARANOID conduct on the part of HBC.
This action is an embarrassment for a church which purports to speak for God. They have demonstrated, once and for all, the nonsense that masquerades for "biblical" leadership at HBC. Long live The Elephants Debt and Paul's Passing Thoughts!
PS- To the elders, we do have the transcript, you know. Are those God's words as well? So, are you gonna sic your lawyers on all the reprints of the transcripts?
I’d love to see the legal document in which God transfers copyright to these guys.
I’m of the opinion that God is Open Access.
Notice also the cowardice in doing this “anonymously”. That way when this blows up in their face any individual can throw up their hands and say “I had nothing to do with it”.
@ anonymous: There was an attorney involved. The attorney is hired by the church and therefore, the elder borg are responsible.
good.
E.G. wrote:
Love it.
I am still trying to figure out what Lifeway saw in James McDonald to ask him to be a writer/contributor to their “Gospel Project” curriculum which they have marketed as the end all be all to biblical truth. But it seems they removed his name from that, too.
What is it with these guys that think they can delete history and pretend it never happened? What ever happened to Christians saying “we were wrong and here’s why”.
What are they afraid of?
anonymous wrote:
Soviet bureaucratic tradition.
If nothing is ever written down, It Never Happened.
You Can’t Prove a Thing.
Another obvious angle that I completely missed: If they were speaking for God, why in the world would they pull the video down? Do they now detract that statement? Am I here right now? Really, people send money to these guys? This brings me closer to understanding Jim Jones’ Kool-Aid party where 900 people attended.
pauldohse wrote:
foreheadslap- DOH! We’re gonna have lots of fun with this.
Anon 1 wrote:
Ask Comrade Stalin:
Before: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Voroshilov,_Molotov,_Stalin,_with_Nikolai_Yezhov.jpg
After: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:The_Commissar_Vanishes_2.jpg
pauldohse wrote:
Good point! Could they say it was meant for their congregation only? If that was the case, they could have simply announced it during a service, right?
I saved a copy of the video to my hard drive, if you would like it.
I would just have to figure a way to get it to y’all, like using one of those large file transfer sites.
Wow, so HBC puts out a video giving their arrogant, warped and twisted view of church polity, when people see it they realize this has nothing to do with God, it’s just a ham-handed way to deflect from the truth, and when viewers see it for what it is, they try to cover that up like someone who got caught with their knickers down. Too bad HBC, you’ve shown the world your true colors and in this age of the Internet, all the bullying in the world won’t make it disappear.
You can’t stop the signal.
pauldohse wrote:
God changed His mind?
Anon 1 wrote:
Nothing; they still do.
The operative word is “Christians”.
On the harvest website they show the financial details of the church. I am astounded. $4 million per year interest on Bank debt. It does not seem to me to be on a healthy financial footing. Lord have mercy on them!
@ pauldohse:
Apparently, they are now ashamed of God. So which is worse, claiming to own His words and mind, or rejecting His words and mind at their convenience?
It’s a toss up…and this is pretty much what happens when mystic despots preach “standing in the stead”. THEY get to be God or not God whenever it suits them, so they can never be held culpable for their evil. Which is why they can cover up all manner of horrors and abuse in their churches withou losing a wink of sleep and without a blush of shame.
God help us if these people ever get the reigns of government.
@ andrew Kenny:
The attitudes, heavy handedness, and poor use of money being exposed may indeed be God’s mercy. Think of the believers who may be set free from the shackles of men!
@ andrew Kenny:
Do you have a link? I am finding it astounding they put truth about finances on their website since not even all the elders were allowed to see it
Argo wrote:
Which they are trying to do with 200-year plans, Quiverfull, Reconstructionism, and Dominionism. All hail God’s Republic of Holy Gilead.
Unscientific guestimate:
Of pastors of normal-sized churches: 50 out of 100 are hopelessly compromised, and should not be trusted.
Of pastors of super-sized churches: 99 out of 100 are hopelessly compromised, and should not be trusted.
I would *love* to know the details/technicalities on which this case of supposed copyright infringement was built! Sounds like someone burrowed for any possible loophole and then blustered around making empty threats…
If I were one of the 4 elders on the video (Paul Inserra, Steve Huston, Randy Williams, or Jamie Harrison) I would be writing my resignation and a mea culpa right now.
Gentlemen, if you confess right now that it was a ill-conceived video, your friends will forgive you. If you repent and claim that you did it in the heat of the moment, it will go well for you. This is when you stand up and say, “I blew it.”
But if you wait until James MacDonald’s empire collapses, you’re going down with him. And he won’t hesitate to throw you under the bus.
Argo wrote:
Thanks to Jefferson, Adams, Franklin and others, they won’t. Although they’d dearly love to, of that I am certain.
Janey wrote:
You are a thinker and not a bobble headed yes woman. Ipso facto, you would not be one of the 4.
anon 1 wrote:
Here http://www.harvestbiblechapel.org/content.aspx?site_id=10780&content_id=374464 they show $6.6 mil going to mortgage service in 2012 and the debt being paid down by $2.6 mil so far in ’13– so only 56,800,000 to go!
@ Dave A A:
Could it be the same pie chart the ordinary elders are asked to approve, with no breakdown of how much of the salaries go to Sr Pastor? Also not including salary from affiliates.
Some men, yeah.
@ Daisy: File Tea. Here is the link for the video: https://filetea.me/t1sFxSMNQybSZxAr819GJFCYA
@ Muff Potter:
Ah yes…the American Enlightenment’s unholy trinity.
pcapastor wrote:
How come it is more advisable to trust a random person in a random street (many streets, anyway) than it is to trust any megachurch pastor, and many christians?
With these guys, I would trust them no further than I could throw them.
How come most business transactions are much less cause of distrust than becoming a member / attendee at some of these “churches”?
@ gus:
@ Argo: Yep, but I don’t think they will til the rapture. In the latter days, “people will heap to themselves teachers with itching ears.” Seems to indicate people will have the choice, and there will be a wide choice of teachers at their disposal. When tyranny is in control, there are no such choices.
@ Paul Dohse:
I just tried your link, but got a blank page.
I uploaded the video from my computer to that site, and this is the link that was auto generated for me, which lets folks download it from here:
Bobble Head video on File Tea
(I kept the original file name itself, when I saved it from You Tube, “the four copy 2”) It is in mp4 format.
@ gus: You are the donor, they are the spender. You are the lackey, they are the leaders. Just zip the lip and give. They have a debt in need to reducing…ASAP. It is getting embarrassing.
@ Dave A A: I love, love, love pie charts. Those who produce them rarely see what they actually show. This church organization is totally involved in salary, debt, facilities, administration. This is in excess of 75%. So, for every buck you give, only 25% makes it outside to ministry. And how much of the ministry dime is tied up in overhead? Good night! This would have made a great MBA paper…
dee wrote:
7% to missions, 13% to ministry; all the rest for salaries, admin, mortgages, and facilities. So only 20% goes to what is supposed to be their reason for existence. Seems their real reason for existence is greed. I wonder how Charity Navigator would rate a charity that only spent 20% of its revenue on the programs and services they exist to provide?
@ JeffT:
And they make it clear that “missions IS church planting”, and it looks like nearly 2/3 of the church plants are in North America….
Church planting as “missions” in N. America seems to be a jobs program for seminary grads. It is the big thing now in the SBC.
Dave A A wrote:
Based on their financials it looks like their church plants are all building, very little ministry.
@ JeffT:
So, let’s see… About 20% of the 35% non-North American part of the 7% goes to what folks used to think of as missions?
Breaking imaginary news! Pastoral Assistant reading this right now and says, “Critical Oursiders are making fun of the pie chart, boss! That’s why I advised you not to post it!” Boss replies, “That’s OK, Smithers… no need for you to worry about the pie chart!. Because You’re Fired!”
Welp, its official. these guys have OFFICIALLY lost any right WHATSOEVER to talk about manhood – “biblical” or not. What a bunch of cowards.
I wonder how much of the STAFF portion of the pie chart belongs to JMAC! I’m guessing his ridiculous salary accounts for about 75% of the STAFF portion!
@ Dave A A:
Facilities had a higher expenditure then Missions. I wonder what would happen if people realized more money was spent on toilet paper and light bulbs then spreading the Gospel to those who haven’t heard it. Sad, sad day.
@ dee:
Dee, I’m not sure what the law is with religious non-profirs, but it is my understanding that other 501(c)3’s are required to spend at least 51% of what they bring in on what they say, i.e., feed the poor, literacy pograms, after school activities, whatever. As I seem to recall, the United Way got in some hot water over that a decade or so ago…..yet these guys cry foul when they are investigated. It seems there is a huge sense of entitlement in the pulpits these days. Sad.
Bridget wrote:
…………………………
One can only hope this is the outcome!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww
Jeannette Altes wrote:
I learned, very early on in my MBA program, that there are ways to “cook the books.”
Ed Young Jr demonstrated the technique years ago. You see, he would say that Fellowship Church was it’s own missionary effort. In other words, pastors etc are there to “minister” and provide services to those who attend.
Also, the government is loathe to get involved in church issues. Remember the Grassley investigation into Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn, Creflo dollar, etc.? Joyce lives like a flaming Pharaoh, for crying out loud.Well that investigation quietly went away.
Churches are an excellent opportunity for those who have some charisma and want to live large. In my region, I am watching the “successful” types move into larger and larger homes and buying nice cars, pools, etc. on the church dime. Heck, even churches that fail have been known, before the fall, to up their pastor’s lifestyle in a significant way.
And these guys are the ones who say they will not do visitation, funerals, (unless the person was important) since they must “study the Word” in preparation of a sermon which is usually a rehash of their other sermons with some fillers from pastor sermons websites.
Dee needs more coffee.
@ anonymous: Thank you for the smile. I am currently working my way through all of the seasons of Star Trek, the Next Generation, and then shall move onto Voyager. They don’t make great TV like this anymore.
Invalid_Nate wrote:
That is why I love pie charts. With a quick glance, you get the picture. In my reading, I have found that pastors’ salaries often take up 75% of the budget, followed by facilities at another 20%, leaving only 5% for outside missions, etc.
Churches get around this by saying they are paying their pastors to go “encourage the missionaries.” It is quite a racket.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Wusses, jazzbos, white livered yellow bellied poltroons, etc.,
Melanie wrote:
You have hit on an important point. People should understand this when they go to a celebrity driven church. The pastors often sink their handsome salaries into a pool with the other employees and will NOT break it out. Then, they hide the fact that they get a “parsonage allowance ” which is tax deductible. I know of pastors who get a salary of $400,000 and a parsonage allowance of $200,000. This parsonage nonsense is hidden under the benefits section.
Better yet, in a church in this region, there is a “retention pool.” This large sum of money is not quantified except to say they use it to “keep” pastors who get other offers.” ROFL… It is just another way to add more ka-ching to the pastors’ pot.
Shields up, churchgoers. Resistance is never futile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Borg
Dave A A wrote:
Better yet, pastoral assistant takes on look at the pie chart and realizes that he has been had.
Anon 1 wrote:
That is really funny!
@ dee:
I have not heard “poltroon” since I was a kid as my great uncle used it often. He also used “blackguard”. Thanks for the memories.
@ anonymous: Hugh! I, Borg! One of the best episodes of all time. And High did gum up the works. Awesome.
That plot reminded me of Independence Day when the computer geek saved the day by programming a virus into the mother ship controls.I know, I love this stuff. But, it is sure a lot cheaper than dropping money at casinos.
numo wrote:
Ed Young Jr pulled this deal with Tom Rich. Tom won, of course!
dee wrote:
Yes, the golden parachute for ‘servants’ of God which is stunningly arrogant. I thought God “called” these men so why pay to keep them?. Amazing what tripe people will fall for. They often contridict themselves in word and deed.
Churches are not under the same rules as 501c3 non profits so there is no oversight on how money is allocated for mission. Most of them would not pass the allocation test. They can pretty much get by with a lot and if the congregation is not insisting on being informed as to how THEIR dollars are spent, then they “get what they put up with” (as my mom used to say)
Just a suggestion: I know people who have hosted videos on Rutube, a Russian video site, to avoid issues with litigious CULTS (like Scientology) asking for embarrassing videos to be taken down.
And yes, James MacDonald and Elder Board, I’m calling HBC a cult because you guys are suppressing information that makes you look like the goofballs you are. I have nearly two decades of experience tangling with Scientology (aka “the cult of greed and power” per Time Magazine in the very early 1990s) and, to be blunt, once it’s out there on the Internet, it is there forever. It’s not that hard to burn something like this to a DVD-ROM or put it on a jump drive and pass it around (the 2010s version of “sneaker net.”)
My suggestion to you would be to let the video go back up and hope people forget you tried to suppress damaging information. On the other hand, the cat may be out of the bag. Of course, you might also want to FIX the real problems as have been spelled out for you by your former elders.
*shakes head* Do you guys REALLY want to be compared to Scientology?
Invalid_Nate wrote:
“Missions IS Church Planting” (from HBC website)
Therefore Church Planters are Missionaries.
Senior Pastor is our Senior Church Planter– therefore Senior Missionary. Churches are facilities with TP and light bulbs and mortgages and staffs, and ministries, built with the purpose of attracting those who haven’t heard the Gospel to come in and hear our Senior Missionary preach. Therefore: mortgages, facilities, ministries, and staff ALL serve Senior Missionary as he seeks and saves the lost. Therefore the Whole pie chart goes to missions. Be a joy to Senior Missionary and support missions today!
Harvest Bible Chapel Pastor James MacDonald : ‘We believe that the Bible that the authority of the church is vested in the elders. And that when the elders speak collectively in agreement, they speak for God to our church….”
___
References:
http://archive.org/details/JamesMacDonaldHarvastBibleChapel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvest_Bible_Chapel
—
Oh– almost forgot “Administration”. That’s missions too.
@ Southwestern Discomfort:
I was thinking much the same thing. I posted the following on Julie Anne’s blog a few hours ago:
Predictable, indeed. The Creepy Spiritual Abusers are all trying to maintain their control — and are all failing miserably in the Internet Age.
More and more, James MacDonald and his ilk are coming to resemble the mother of all spiritually abusive organizations. Not just regarding their strategies for abuse, thought-stopping, damage control and smearing of critics. What is increasingly coming to characterize That So-called “Church” is the “footbullet”. Everything they try to do to improve their image and stifle criticism just makes them look worse, because they’re trying to fight the truth, and it’s a fight they just can’t win.
Former elders Phelps and Slabaugh stand accused of “trying to destroy” James MacDonald? The irony is they don’t even have to try. MacDonald is shooting his own feet off, and he doesn’t even know it.
Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Words of wisdom.
Dave A A wrote:
Ed Young Jr is a master at the “church as the mission.” He said so when I attended there. That should give you some insight into my judgment.
Serving Kids in Japan (formerly “Serving in Japan”) wrote:
Well said!!!
dee wrote:
It hurts me to say that I agree, but I do. 🙁
Sopwith wrote:
That link is amazing! The Internet Archive. That video is now enshrined in history for all to see and judge for themselves. It’s worth noting that as the main video plays, there is a thumbnail video on the left side of the screen that shows the “bobble-head” elders with their heads jerkingly bobbing. Hilarious!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVC5fpqTZ18
Jesus’ Pastors, True Shepherds, and Overseers, who care about “the truth of God’s Word”, and about feeding the flock of Christ Jesus, a proper spiritual diet, understand they are quite capable of self-deception, and spiritual deception, and take great care to surround themselves with a cloak of accountability, not deniability, not blame-shifting, not deferral, or self-righteousness.
Southwestern Discomfort wrote:
Like I said, I saved a copy of the video in question to my hard drive. 🙂
I still have a copy of the video on my hard drive, but someone else uploaded it here:
James MacDonald Harvest Bible Chapel Excommunication (September 2013) video
This video makes them look bad, not the guys they are chewing out. Even if they were right (I tend to side with the rebuked guys), the way the situation is handled makes the video guys look bad.
Pingback: HBC removes shameful video, or . . . God changed his mind? |
@ Anon 1:
That is because being wrong does not pay well in the land of leavenjellycalism and these guys are after money and power in the best corporate style.
Seems to me if there is an embed code on the video (and there is at http://archive.org/details/JamesMacDonaldHarvastBibleChapel)
then anyone who has been contacted by a Harvest lawyer can use a fair use argument.
If the video was on YouTube, a fair use counter-claim can be made.
What site was it originally uploaded to?
Doesn’t make sense – don’t put a video on line if you aren’t prepared to have it shared and critiqued. These guys can’t be that clueless…can they?
P.S. Since this site has an embed code for the video –
http://archive.org/details/JamesMacDonaldHarvastBibleChapel – say the word and I’ll post it under fair use. (criticism, commentary, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, or research)
That doesn’t get Paul’s YouTube channel back, but it’s easy to file a counter-claim with YouTube, I’m sure his attorney will be all over it.
If 10 bloggers from various countries repost it etc. we can make busy work for the Harvest attorney. That isn’t why I’d post it of course, this is it’s own news story now in evangelical land.:^)
@ Bene D: Please go ahed and post it under fair use. The elder borgs, stunned at the rejection of their obviously “godly” bobble headed video, along with some bloggers (I am not admitting to anything) who alluded to their lack of manhood, reverted to the ever dangerous tactic of “We must do something!”
When decisions are made in such a panic, screw-ups happen. HBC readers: Are these who you choose as leaders? Good night!! How embarrassing!
Despeville wrote:
Great word! I shall use it one of these days!
@ Bene D: One other point, as you will see, the embedded video is down on our site. When they do the “We are really stupid wusses” video takedown, it automatically (I am not technically savvy here) disables it on all computers that used that embed code.
By using the archive, does this get around that problem?
Hey Dee:
You are correct – it is disabled – it doesn’t embed (I’m using WP) and I don’t have the coding skills to figure out how to enable it.
Someone out there has the skills.
So, sorry about that,
I’ll keep an eye open for an embeddable copy.
BD
Thank you so much for trying.
I saved a copy the day I saw it (9-29) if anyone’s interested. I’ve seen too many things like this go “poof” and knew this one likely would, too.