“Relativity applies to physics, not ethics” –Albert Einstein link
Feeding of the 5000: A Fractured Rendering of Matthew 14:13-20 NIV (Gateway)
13 When Jesus heard what had happened, he withdrew by boat privately to a solitary place. Hearing of this, the crowds followed him on foot from the towns. 14 When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them and healed their sick.
14A Jesus gave a special shout out to Saul's Boating Company which provided His transportation at cost and at great sacrifice. (Motto: Why walk on water when you can ride in comfort?)
15 As evening approached, the disciples came to him and said, “This is a remote place, and it’s already getting late. Send the crowds away, so they can go to the villages and buy themselves some food.”
15A The Sons of Zebedee recommended that all of them eat at Y'hoshua Blintzes (Motto: You think manna was sweet? Taste our blintzes. You'll never go walking in the desert again.)
16 Jesus replied, “They do not need to go away. You give them something to eat.” 17 “We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish,” they answered.
17A The disciples became concerned. The young man had purchased the fish and loaves from Moshe ben Amram ha-Levi's Eating Emporium which was known to be frequented by Samaritans. He was told to buy the food from Sisters of Y'hudit which gave "those in the know" a 10% kickback at great sacrifice. Was this a sin worthy of church discipline? The disciples were confused.
18 “Bring them here to me,” he said. 19 And he directed the people to sit down on the grass.
18A The grass was mowed by Lazarus' Lawn Service (Motto: "Bringing your lawn back from the dead") which is available Sunday through Friday. Slushies and all beef hot dogs were provided at less than cost by Y'honatan's Kosher Dogs. (Motto: With prices like these, you won't need a miracle.)
Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves.
18B Jesus turned to the crowd and said he was particularly thankful because the loaves were actually purchased from Rivka's Bakery. (Motto: The bread may not be manna but it beats matzo.)
Then he gave them to the disciples, and the disciples gave them to the people. 20 They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces that were left over. 21 The number of those who ate was about five thousand men, besides women and children.
21A Special thanks to Batsheva's Childcare. Motto: "Caring for those unexpected little ones."
Personal examples of those who use their church position to "sell it."
- My husband and I were approached, ad nauseam, by some good friends (who rapidly became distant acquaintances) who got sucked, hook, line and sinker, into the Amway business. I found myself avoiding contact with them. Why? It dawned on me that we had suddenly ceased being friends and had become a business opportunity. I eventually told my increasingly distant friend that I never wanted to be involved in a business which would cause anyone to think that I cared about them because they could help me make money. That is one of the reasons that we have hesitated to accept any sort of advertising on TWW. We would never want anyone to think that our blog is here to monetarily benefit us.
- In a former church, an elder's wife became involved in some sort of marketing scheme in which she sold high end products such as crystal, expensive handbags, etc. She used her position to get people to come to her events. She then told attendees that the head elder had approved her business, claiming it was a "legit" enterprise.
- At the same church, another woman got involved in the elder's wife "legit" business. She called members of a Bible study, asking to present the products of this business to them. The members were irritated. I called and asked her not to use the relationships in the study for her financial gain. She became upset and said she needed to make money. She lived in a beautiful home, had kids in private school, had great clothes and took nice vacations. I told her if she was on welfare and struggling to put food on the table, I would be sympathetic. I would even help her find ways to increase her income. But that was not the case here.
- There was an advertisement on the local radio station pushing one of those incessant siding companies. It featured a well-known elder at a local well-known church. He was endorsing this product. Since his church was large, why do you think he was hired? It wasn't for his radio voice. Also, how much do you wanna bet (I could not resist) that he got some sort of incentive?
Selling the reputation of the church.
While reading through The Elephant's Debt, link, I found a video, which featured James MacDonald falling all over himself to pitch a construction company. As you watch it, remember, this church is approximately $68+ million in debt, mostly due to the addition of buildings, campuses, etc.
Here are some things that troubled me.
- At the very beginning of the video, James MacDonald's name, position (senior pastor ) and the church (Harvest Bible Chapel) is written in big letters across the screen. It is obvious that his name, position and church are viewed as a net positive. My guess is that the company believed this would help them make money.
- He claims he didn't hire the company, at first, and, instead went with another company which would prove, obviously to be inferior. He called this company back (I am not going to use their name. They have been pushed enough), begged them to help and they humbly agreed. He claims that this outfit "Did not need the business" which caused this MBA blog queen to ROFL. Do people actually buy this codswallop?
- MacDonald then claimed that the company "saved us." He emphasizes this by adding "God help me!" He will "never do business with another construction company again." "God help me?" A vow to God to only use one construction company? Good night!
- He defines "high integrity" as bringing in the job "on cost." Wow. They lived up to their contractual obligations. I am floored.
- He says that the church (or is it MacDonald?) has, in the past 15 years, used the company to help bring about "1 million square feet on 5 campuses." He repeats the name of this firm a number of times just in case we idiots didn't get it.
- He says he has 100% confidence in the integrity of the company. Sell it, James, sell it.
- At every turn, said company "under promises and over delivers". Work the script, James.
- He says that HBC is a "not for profit organization and very limited in their funding." I would say that $68+million is an amazing amount of debt for those with "limited funding." Does living in an expensive house constitute "profit?"
- The company is selflessly committed to saving money on projects. $68 million debt is saving money???
Here is an TED reader's comment from that post that raises some great questions.
This is wrong on so many levels I can not count them. James is using Harvest, the people at Harvest to endorse a product? What about the construction companies that actually attend Harvest? What about the business they lose because of James endorsement? Did (name of company) treat Harvest a little better because of the public endorsement? Has (name of company) ever given any gift of any kind to Harvest? Has James received any gift of any kind, any help, any service, any material or golf or trip or ANYTHING from anyone having ANYTHING to do with (name of company?
FBC Jacksonville and Mac Brunson: Motto: If it can be sold, we've sold it.
A few years back, our good friend, Tom Rich of FBC Jax Watchdog raised similar questions in a post: Crossing From Church Marketing Into Money Changing Darned good title. Wish I had thought of it.
The following is a large excerpt from that article.
For the past 2 Pastor's Conferences under Mac Brunson, an Atlanta-based marketing and promotions firm, called Conexus, has actually SOLD advertising "promotions packages", ranging in prices of $1000 to $12,000. What FBC Jax is selling in these packages includes:
– display of ministry name in the image screens of the main auditorium
– display of videos highlighting the ministry on the image screens
– "Emcee" recognition of the ministry from the pulpit
– plugs for the sales of CDs
– placement of ministry logos on the church website
– listing of the ministry on the conference website
– mentioning of name in post-conference emails
And this is just the start.
This year, they've become even more brazen in the promotions for the 2010 Pastor's Conference, as now they are trying to sell for thousands of dollars the privilege to place the name of a ministry on bottled water, pens, and conference bags. Even the mentioning of a ministry name from the pulpit is "negotiable", according to their website.
Do the people of FBC Jax really want their leadership charging other Christian ministries $750 for the simple privilege of occupying an 8' x 10' section of our foyer to put up a display table? Is that what the faithful people did 20 and 30 years ago when they gave sacrificially to pay cash to build the RLA and Main auditorium: so Mac Brunson and the A-Group could then sell promotions packages in the auditorium? Did the people of FBC Jax give money to purchase image screens and all of the top-notch audio-visual equipment so Trey Brunson could sell to Christian ministries for thousands of dollars the privilege of displaying their ministry logo or so the "emcee" could speak the name of a ministry to the audience after they have negotiated the appropriate fee with Trey and Maurilio?
I don't know about you, but as a Southern Baptist, and knowing the influence that FBC Jax has, and the respect that Mac Brunson has with churches all over the SBC, I'm worried when I see FBC Jax breaking new ground in this area. What a terrible precedent that I hope others don't follow.
Read that last sentence again. I think Tom Rich may be a prophet.
I'm worried when I see FBC Jax breaking new ground in this area. What a terrible precedent that I hope others don't follow.
Lydia's Corner: Esther 4:1-7:10 1 Corinthians 12:1-26 Psalm 36:1-12 Proverbs 21:21-22
First! Ha, ha, I brought it here!
How about Mac Brunson bringing the Israeli Commissioner for Tourism to his church to help sell tours: http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/07/pastor-and-israeli-government-official.html
It is quite amazing, Dee, to see this trend of churches and pastors becoming money-making bonanzas. It is shameless, but it is the church member who continues to fork over their money week after week to these guys who empower these men.
I was just a guy who saw this nonsense unfolding and transforming my church right in front of my eyes, and I knew it would spread. I tried to warn people that if the lay people didn’t stand up to these pastors and their suck-up lay people who enabled them, things would only get worse. It is worse now than I ever imagined with the money-making enterprises the mega and giga churches have become. As I posted last month, it is now “all about the Benjamins” for these guys, and they aren’t afraid to flaunt it in the open.
Thanks for an excellent article.
“He defines “high integrity” as bringing in the job “on cost.” Wow. They lived up to their contractual obligations. I am floored. ”
A contractor who doesn’t go over budget? That’s not high integrity, that’s a miracle đ
Ah, yes. Holy network marketing schemes. The worst are the ones with obvious God-ordained benefits to the buyer, who, if they decline to buy, are told that they are denying what God wants for them and have some kind of spiritual problem that would make them deny God’s blessing on them. Vitamins, miracle weight loss pills, ion-exchange laundry balls. And all of these people aren’t hawking these things six months later becuase the company folds due to mis-management or trouble with the IRS…oops, I mean Ceasar’s persecution of Christians. The pyramid becomes too large to remain standing and everybody loses their money.
I would like to understand why on earth people go to these churches? Just don’t get it at all. When did big business and the church merge.
With all my heart and mind can’t imagine ( or fathom) Jesus, Peter or Paul hawking goods and services like this. Where is there even an iota of scriptural support for behaving like a corporate hawk?
Lin wrote:
I think those are really great questions. I think people go to those churches because they are drawn in by the excitement, bustle, and extravagance. The pastor is charismatic. The music, sound, and video production are high-quality. The people in the congregation more or less all look alike and come from the same socio-economic class and background. Certain social and religious-spiritual needs are met through corporate worship and the various groups and activities. In a word, people go to these places because they are successful (at least in the outward sense), and people are drawn to success.
Now, the question remains (which you pointed out): What resemblance do these churches have with the early church? If anything, there might be some resemblance with the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem, which had become considerably corrupt. But I don’t see much resemblance with the various churches planted by the Apostles throughout the Roman empire. These were gatherings consisting largely of the lower social classes (though there certainly were some wealthy folks as well) and groups that were marginalized (women, slaves, former cult prostitutes, etc.). They were also a mix of Jewish and Gentile converts, which totally went against the grain of Jewish orthodoxy at the time (a Jew eating with a Gentile? Outrageous). The apostles themselves, as Paul describes them 2 Cor., seemed to be dirt poor. What a contrast with our wealthy pastors of suburban middle class megachurches!
Mind you, I attend one of those megachurches. I think it is one of the better ones. I know God is doing good work there. But I can’t help see the irony in light of the questions you raised.
Perhaps future church historians will speak of the age of the megachurch and its demise, or more hopefully, its reformation by dissident evangelicals.
I wonder whether MacDonald has ever considered doing infomercials for a career.
I'm fairly sure we've mentioned this before, but it's worth repeating.
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2003-03-04/news/0303040211_1_safety-kleen-greens-james-macdonald
"A wealthy Oklahoma family has agreed to donate the former headquarters of Safety-Kleen Corp. in Elgin, worth at least $9 million, to an evangelical church in Rolling Meadows, church officials said Monday…
David Green and his family, owners of craft supply giant Hobby Lobby, chose Harvest because they approve of the church's message and trust the church to make good use of the space, said James MacDonald, the church's senior pastor.
"I was stunned," MacDonald said Monday, recalling his conversation with Green's son, Steve. "I just thanked him. I didn't even know what to say. I just thanked the Lord. It really is an incredible privilege."
MacDonald approached the Greens in January and got word of the donation Feb. 20. Under a deal signed Friday, church officials will pay $1 to lease the property for a year before taking ownership, MacDonald said."
That announcement was made in the Chicago Tribune 10 years ago.
Pingback: Selling Out the ?Church?: James MacDonald and Mac Brunson | Professional Meaning
Tom R wrote:
You were one of the first to speak out. But, more importantly, you stood your ground when they played dirty and won your lawsuit when you called them all on it. You put a crimp in the “business os usual.”
I truly believe that your lawsuit was the reason that most of us can blog about our concerns in relative freedom. You are the man! I grovel at your feet.
You know, these pastors jump up and down, trying to get attention so they can “witness for the Lord.” I find it rather amusing that they never thought that attention seeking might lead to some folks who look and are appalled as opposed to “blessed.” I’ll be in touch with you. Scuttlebutt has it that another high profile pastor may have attracted the attention of some people who are not impressed.
Deb wrote:
ShamWOW!
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
I wonder if the emphasis should be on the sham? SHAMwow.
Zing!
We mustn’t forget to give props to James Merritt, the former prez of the SBC, and his shameless use of his name and his church to push the infamous FHTMC marketing scheme inside his church:
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2011/07/i-thought-i-had-seen-it-allthen-i-saw.html
Although he did successfully scrub the Internet of the video of his hawking this sham, it is at least documented on the blogs.
And don’t forget they are passing down their dynasties to their sons. Who would even know about Jonathan Merritt if not for daddy geting his pals to sign his toothless environmental manifesto for the SBC or Jonathan interview big names for articles.
It is always nice when daddy can make sure you have a 6 figure salary on the church staff or in some entity.
Before the D-Day landings in 1944, the Allies carried out two huge, complex and heavily-resourced campaigns of deception to convince the Axis high command that the invasion would be anywhere other than Normandy. Operation Bodyguard fabricated spurious threats against areas other than northern France; and Operation Fortitude created a massive dummy invasion threat against Norway and, particularly, Calais. History shows that these were successful; heavy as the D-Day casualties were, they would have been immeasurably higher (on both sides, of course) without Bodyguard and Fortitude.
ISTM that we, the Church at large and especially in the West, have needlessly walked into the same deception that the Allies pulled off in a very different cause 70 years ago. To cut a long story short: Back in the 1960’s, the rise of “higher criticism”, liberal academic theology and individualistic morality convinced many Christians that the enemy’s primary target was historic doctrinal orthodoxy. To Rome, that meant the authority of the Church, and to everyone else (again, in the West), it meant the authority of scripture. I think this is why – for instance – Protestant evangelical groups have pursued such an aggressive campaign to defend scripture, and to establish and define biblical morality. But all the time, we were busy “discerning” the wrong threats and fortifying the wrong beaches. So the really important ground was given up.
That’s one reason we have the sordid spectacle of a “pastor” boasting about the bodies he plans to throw out of his church “by God’s grace”, and of “churches” that are nothing more than the commercial supply-lines of motivational speakers. Simply by repeating the words “biblical” and “scriptural”, sinners gain the passionate loyalty of christian followers. And it seems that the more sordid and brazen their sin, the more those followers laud them as “godly”.
@ Nick Bulbeck:
What a great analogy Nick! BTW, I visited Normandy four years ago, and it was an incredible experience.
It's a shame that some have taken the authority of scripture beyond where I believe God intended for it to go.
Steve Scott wrote:
Except, that is, those who started the pyramid. So the pyramid has fulfilled its purpose and the originators laugh all the way to the bank.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
Great comment! If things don't work out for MacDonald at Harvest, he could try and replace Bill Mays, who died back in 2009. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_Mays
Jude 1:
12 These people are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualmâshepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprootedâtwice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.
14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about them: âSee, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all of them of all the ungodly acts they have committed in their ungodliness, and of all the defiant words ungodly sinners have spoken against him.â[e] 16 These people are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, âIn the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.â 19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.
The GA Baptist convention is now engaged in Marketing Wills and Estate planning Through a specific law firm that will come to the church for $299.00 per couple to plan end of life documents. I’m sure there will be a push for leaving a legacy with the church in your will.
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Consider, for instance, the “motto” of one of these mega-organizations:
“Mars Hill Church lives for Jesus as a city within the city: knowing culture, loving people and seeing lives transformed to live for Jesus.”
https://twitter.com/MarsHillChurch
What is meant by “knowing culture” which is so highly flaunted?
Well, it does not seem to mean what would be traditionally regarded as culture – the fine arts, literature, opera, etc. It seems more like the idea of “knowing culture” is akin to immersing oneself in the baser aspects of society such as familiarity with what goes on at strip clubs (including descriptions of strippers’ footware from the pulpit), coarse and vulgar popular comedians, etc.
For those of us old enough to remember Jim and Tammy Baker (probably 95% of the readership of this blog)… this is all going to end badly.
Allen wrote:
I always got a kick out of marketing Dave Ramsey seminars. You know, be sure and tithe FIRST even though you owe your “neighbor” money. Oh and you can pay for your seminar by credit card. (wink)
anon1
So, what is the deal betweeen Acuff and Ramsey?
E.G. wrote:
I remember them well. So many were deceived by them.
anon 1 wrote:
Really? I’ve always heard Ramsey only accepted debit cards.
The Christian Industrial Complex.
Horrifying.
Dr. Fundystan, Proctologist wrote:
That’s true. I know he can come across as gimmicky, but he has integrity as far as I can tell, and he truly helps people. And yes, I’m debt free now đ
@ lilyrosemary:
Just to clarify, it’s true that Dave Ramsey does NOT accept credit cards. He seems to practice what he preaches, unlike JMac…
When writing about MacDonald in future posts, and in particular how he’s about earning money for himself, it would be funny to see “I’m lovin’ it!” tagline mentioned somewhere.
I’m Lovin’ It (image)
Mentioned in a post above: Jim and Tammy Baker
Jim Baker said his WOFish money grubbing techniques were wrong, so he stopped doing that, but he’s on TV again, trying to scare people into sending him money now.
Baker keeps talking about the end of the world, and so he sells dried food and other end- of- the- world type stuff on his TV show, like solar powered generators, so you can still use your electronics during the apocalypse.
gus wrote:
And the ones who started it didn’t go to our church.
Lilyrose, it was years ago but we accepted credit cards for financial peace seminars. Perhaps it has changed quite a bit? maybe it depended on the venue?
@ dee:
Acuff?
Anon 1 wrote:
I’m not sure, but I thought organizations just bought the materials for the financial peace seminars and then held the classes on their own? I don’t know–I’ve listened to Ramsey’s radio show for a few years, and I’ve heard him say that they don’t accept credit cards on their website or at their events (because his method for getting people out of debt requires that they first stop using credit cards immediately), but I’m not sure what the policy has been over the years.
He IS a marketing machine and I see how that can come across bad because of what we’ve seen elsewhere in evangelical culture, but he’s always seemed consistent to me (granted, this is over the radio) in truly wanting to help people. I’m pretty sure he’d be thoroughly disgusted with MacDonald’s elephant-size debt. đ
Nick Bulbeck wrote:
Well said.
Allen wrote:
if it was truly a ministry, I would be impressed. It is just another way to reach the vulnerable and relieve them of their burden o cash-all to the glory of God.
TedS. wrote:
And this is all vigorously defended, not only be Mars HIll but by many of the supposed Christian leaders.
@ Bill: Stay tuned, we have more coming today on what is going on at Elevation Church and Steven Furtick.
@ Daisy: Heck Christian spokespeople jumped on the Y2K bandwagon and made bank selling the same stuff.
E.G. wrote:
But he has a tattoo. Doesn’t that means he is cooler than the Bakers?? đ
@ Anon 1: He is the editor of Stuff Christian Like. That blog was moved to Ramsey’s site when Acuff joined his team 3 years ago. He suddenly quit last week and the blog is down. Take a look and read between the lines.
http://www.daveramsey.com/jonacuff/
Acuff claims it has nothing to do with morals, money, etc. But, something happened. i wonder if it was a disagreement with Ramsey’s teachings.
Steve Scott wrote:
The church is a hot bed for the next greatest marketing scheme and that is what this stuff is. A scheme. At this point, many of these organizations are in a bit of trouble. They must always be bottom feeders. Eventually the bottom gets cleaned out.
It reminds me of a trip we took to Aruba. On my birthday, I got a bucket item checked off. My family and I went on a submarine ride. When we got to the bottom, the area was cleaned out. Few fish, coral reefs, etc. This was due to years of overfishing and harvesting of coral. That is what churches look like when the pyramid boys are finished with them. Heck, Charles Stanley used to be one. Fleece the flock- a good old American ideal.
@ dee:
If well done, end of life documents for a couple, with minimal customization, but generically tailored to their station in life, would cost not less than $700 or more, depending on the state and locality, and could go much, much higher. And, if a signing “ceremony” occurs with witnesses and notary, guided by an attorney or trained legal assistant, that is above that. In other words, $299 is a good deal for EOL documents for a couple.
@ lilyrosemary:
All I know is that mega churches accepted credit cards to pay for the seminars years back. (It has been a while, maybe 12-15 years?). Churches made Ramsey rich. So no way is he going to teach people to pay off their “neighbor” before they tithe to mega church. :o) God will not bless you, you know, if you do that.
Dee, You are on top of things! I have never even seen “stuff Christians like” so had no idea. But things do disappear, don’t they? I am now hearing that the blustering James McDonald is claiming his bobblehead elder video speaking for God is their intellectual property and trying to erase any vestiges of it online.
The irony is delicious. Speaking for God is now intellectual property.
lilyrosemary wrote:
Ramsey has made bank off his enterprise. Most people want to help other people. I have rarely met anyone who does not purport to try to be kind to others. i know hardened criminals who try to help others on occasion.
Here is al ink to a picture of Ramsey’s 13,000+ square foot home.
http://www.biblemoneymatters.com/dave-ramseys-new-house-did-he-follow-his-own-advice-and-pay-cash/
Ramsey is a master at market segmentation. He goes to churches and tells them to tithe, that this is one of the key strategies that made him successful. He even has told people that he tithed into and out of bankruptcy, never stopped giving 10% even when he wasn’t paying his creditors. Says Ramsey when asked by a fan of his if he should stop tithing when he couldn’t pay his bills:
“No, I wouldnât stop my tithe. I wouldnât reduce it. Itâs a tenth. I tithed all the way into bankruptcy court and all the way out. These are a loving Fatherâs instructions for His kids.”
http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2010/03/dave-ramsey-on-tithing-all-way-into-and.html
But read his secular books, no mention of the tithe and 10% into and out of bankruptcy.
So he knows to tap the Christian market for all it is worth, he has to carry the financial message most near and dear to the hearts of the pastors who are granting him access to this huge, gullible market.
Tom R, I recently heard a speaker make reference to “financial planners who know just enough of the gospel to be dangerous.” I assume the reference is to Dave R. because I am always jarrred when I hear Dave make a biblical reference… It sounds like a total disconnect.
As an aside, my former pastor once shared in a sermon that on a recent family vacation he and his wife put on their headphones and listened to 40 (or some huge number) recorded hours of the Dave Ramsey radio show. As his church mounts a million dollar building campaign, I heard this pastor preach to the masses that each family (and kid above 7th grade) needs to give sacrificially to achieve his vision, “because it’s all the Lord’s money anyway.” I can’t connect the dots… do we micromanage every dollar or trust God to provide His resources? My take is that leadership manages and invests their money but the sheep trust God to provide as they give way way above 10% directly to those leaders.
Can I hear a collective good night!
Tom R wrote:
Well, if you’re the guy on the receiving end of those Tithes(TM), you’re going to be successful. A little veiled (or not-so-veiled) Hellfire and Damnation and Curse Upon You if you don’t, and the money comes in in buckets. TITHE! TITHE! TITHE!
Anon 1 wrote:
Oceania has always been at Peace with Eurasia, Comrade:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_censorship_of_images
dee wrote:
Was this back when Bill and Hillary were The Antichrist of the Month?
“It’s Prophesied! It’s Prophesied!”
“We Fear God, Therefore We ‘FORCE’ Â Men?”
What?
  Apparently Men like J.J. Mahaney and certainly Mark Driscoll, are using religion not to persuade Men, but to, in a manner of speaking, to minunipulate and control them to fulfill their own personal ambitions.
huh? Â
As many have come to understand it, Apparently C.J. Mahaney followed a operation whereby which a grave sin must be told to attain to a higher level in his Maryland State registered non-religious-not-for-profit-organization. This operation was then used as a trap for submission and control of his ‘church’ captains. He used an operation now called ‘sin-sniffing- whereby which he taught through his captains, then passed through to their care group leaders – to encourage members in their immediate care to look for sin in one another and expose it. This method was used to control the members of the local POD/PDI/SGM assembly or Church. Please note: Wether intentional or not, this behavior smacked of cult-like behavior, and having no basis in scripture.Â
Has certain of these churches today become environments of ‘force’, as apposed to the Biblical Model: that of ‘persuasion’ ?
Could b.
(sadface)
God ‘forces’ us, so we ‘force’ Men, kinda thing!?!
What?!?
Apostle Paul: “We persuade Men…”
see: II Cor 5:11
hmmm…
“… the apostle and his brethren used every argument and persuasion, to lead men to believe in the Lord Jesus, and to act as his disciples. Their zeal and diligence were for the glory of God and the good of the church. Christ’s love to us will have a like effect upon us, if duly considered and rightly judged. ” ~ Â Matthew Henry
God Almighty, through our Lord Jesus Christ, has called us to be those who ‘persuade’, Men:
“But the servant of the Lord must not strive, but must be gentle toward all men, apt to teach, suffering the evil men, patiently, instructing them with meekness that are contrary minded, proving if God at any time will give them repentance, that they may acknowledge the truth, and that they may come to amendment out of the snare of the devil, of whom they are taken prisoners, to do his will. (2Tim 2:24-26 Geneva Bible)
hmmm…
Pilate: (to Jesus) “Don’t you know that I have power to crucify you, and have power to loose you, as well?”
Jesus:  “You could have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above.”Â
~see Jn.19:10-11.Â
It is the Lord Jesus Christ, who’s church it is, who gives pastors their power and authority from above. Therefore, He (Jesus) can, most certainly, in the same regards, take it a way, should He desire it.
Ahem!
“Pastor Beware!” “…remember therefore from whence you are fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I (Jesus) will come against you shortly, and will remove your candlestick out of his place, except you amend…”
Skreeeeeeeeeeeeeetch!
Sopy
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http://paulspassingthoughts.com/2013/10/02/the-james-macdonald-white-paper-hbc-attempts-to-expunge-infamous-church-discipline-video-files-complaint-against-ppt-post-10-of-30/#comments
So if the video is Harvet’s “intellectual property”, and the elders “speak for God”, then God is Harvest’s intellectual property. Nice.
I smell more blog posts…
The problem I have with Ramsey is that he is well aware there is no “tithe” in the New Covenant. So if we follow that rule then it is more like 23% and poor people did not tithe. There is no temple or Israel to tithe to. We, of course, are to help one another just as Paul took up collection for the Jerusalem believers who were being persecuted.
So Ramsey built his empire on a quid pro quo with pastors concerning the tithe teaching. I realize he went into the secular market but without churches in those early days, he would be one of many out there.
Nice castle he built, Dee. Wow. Thanks for the link. I had no idea.
@ anonymous:
I know! They have really backed themsevles into a corner: God is exclusive to us and a respector of persons. Not.
Whatever short term control they gained over HBC pew sitters from the video is lost on the larger implications of what it ultimately communicated. If people are allowed to think about it. Best get it erased and pretend it never existed!
Sopwith wrote:
This is called “Rule by Divine Right”.
“GOD HATH WILLED IT!!!!!”
anonymous wrote:
The difference between religion and Magick is in Magick the mortal Sorcerer is the one in charge and the supernatural being/force is the one doing the Will of the mortal Sorcerer. Magick.
anonymous wrote:
THIS IS OUTRAGEOUS!
Dee & Deb and the TWW community –
That post above may have been easily overlooked because of all the posts on this thread – but if it is true, it represents some truly OUTRAGEOUS and PARANOID conduct on the part of HBC.
TedS. wrote:
But it should come as no surprise to anyone. This is spiritual despotism at its finest. Cultism. Paranoia. Nicolaitanism. This maybe is the fruit of a rotten tree. I would suspect the tree has been rotten from the get-go.
@ TedS.: I have placed an alert on our header.
Persuaded: “Roasted Lamb Taste Good?”
hmmm…
The Lord Jesus Christ was in the world for thirty-three years, and the world was made by Him.
ok.
But the world did no know Him…
What?
Jesus came unto His own, yet His own did not receive Him.Â
Huh?
But as many as did received Him, to them He gave prerogative to be the sons of God, even to them that believe in His Name; which are then born of God.
This is the good news of Jesus’ message. (what the bible calls the gospel)Â He came to give us “life” and “bring us back to God”.
(Yeppppeee, I’m happy)
Are you?
Therefore if any man be in Christ, let him be a new creature. Old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
All things are of God, which has reconciled us unto himself by Jesus Christ, and has given unto us “the ministry of reconciliation”.
Yehaaaaaaaaa!
For God was in Christ, and reconciled the world to Himself, not imputing their sins unto them, and has committed to us “the word of reconciliation”.
(pressin’ da proverbial pause button?)
-click-
Therefore, be pleased, Kind Folk, to give yourself  great consideration to Jesus’ message, and do not despise so great a  wonderful benefit. WoW!
Be reconciled to God?
Yep! Jesus can do dat fer ya…
Blesings! to Youward…
“We persuade Men…”
Sopy
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@ anonymous: Just did a short post.
@ anonymous: Despicable cowards!
Anon 1 wrote:
He also said that that “cottage” represents only a minuscule percentage of his net worth!
@ dee:
True enough. I take it all back… đ
Participant Observer wrote:
I think your analysis is accurate. In my own town there is a huge mega-church complex complete with state-of-the-art auditorium for big name Christian music groups, and a k-12 Christian school (quite pricey) to offset the influence of hell-bound secular liberals such as myself. Not long ago (during an ideological purge) they fired a Chem teacher who had taught there from its beginning for not signing on to a literal Genesis reading of creation.
Just down the street there is a super Walmart. The cash flow at both places has got to rival the energy output of all the turbines at Hoover Dam. I don’t think it’s coincidental that the high-end rides and SUVs in and out of both expansive parking lots bear the NOTW (not of this world) art logo on their rear windows. And you’re right, if it were not so ludicrous it would almost be funny.
Not to be quarrelsome, but can you elaborate on the ‘good’ (in terms of tangibles) you see God doing at these places? American Protestantism has indeed produced some good things, the abolitionist movement, women’s suffrage, and Dr. King’s civil rights movement to be sure, but other than those, where’s the beef?
@ anonymous:
Umm, so . . . the manly men who call for courage and bravery can’t even stand by their own words and videos . . . but by all means, let’s all trust and follow them — not!?!?
@ Anon 1:
33.3%. There were three yearly tithes, and one every three years. Sounds like income tax…
Participant Observer wrote:
……………………………………………
Ah, a look of success. The quest and acquisition of ,”the American dream”, played out in the spiritual realm. If it’s flashy, well maintained and in the better part of town, it must be blessed by God.
I doubt if Jesus or most of the Apostles would be welcome in these churches, given their poor estate and uneducated backgrounds.
Muff Potter wrote:
We just built a care center that features a food pantry that looks like a small grocery store and a clothes closet that looks like a boutique. It also has offices for volunteer dental work and legal advice. The career center helps people find jobs. The auto center does repairs and gives away cars to single mothers.
Internationally, we are large enough to partner with ministries such as the International Justice Mission, which works to free women from sex slavery as well as prosecute offenders. The president of the organization, Gary Haugen, spoke at our church not too long ago.
We also partner with several churches in “under-resourced” parts of the world to help them do a similar ministry in their contexts.
We aren’t perfect, but like I said, I think we are one of the better megas. We try to use what God has given us to less selfish ends than some of the others.
Participant Observer wrote:
Thank you for pointing out that there are exceptions to every generality and kudos to your church!
Muff Potter wrote:
Agreed!
@ Participant Observer:
I second those kudos. I am also impressed with what Woodland Hills is doing with their mega space to help their lower income community.
Thanks! I have only been attending for less than a year, but compared to a lot of what else I’ve seen out there, this church has some great initiatives and priorities.
Deb wrote:
The Greens also donated a really nice Chicago property to HBC just last year. It’s called “The Cathedral” or something like that.
@ Deb:
I may have to boycott Hobby Lobby. Darn.
fyi everyone, another post/personal testimony up at http://theelephantsdebt.com/2013/10/09/one-persons-story-mike-medows-rings-familiar/
anonymous
I just tweeted that as well.
Â