Singleness: I Am So Done With Church

When churches cater only to married people and ignore single people, they are ignoring about 50% of the population. As my new 80 year old friend Grandma Jane told, me there is no place for single people in the church. It does not matter if you are a widow, divorced, or never married. I am so done with church. -Teri Anne

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Deb is racing into the final few days of wedding preparation. I am helping my daughter move today. Please understand that our comments will be minimal. In the meantime, please contemplate these heartfelt stories of those singles who have been alienated from today's church culture.


A Resource from Janey

Here is an interesting paper on singles and the church by W. Bradford Wilcox (National Marriage Project, a pro-marriage research organization at University of Virginia) titled No Money, No Honey, No Church link.

Normally NMP is more sanguine. This paper surprised me. Wilcox examines the rapid decline in the Evangelical Church. He points to the country club nature of Evangelicalism: A man takes his family to church to prove to his neighbors he has arrived at a level of respectability.The high speed decline in the white Evangelical church is unique. The Black and Hispanic Churches aren’t experiencing the same decline, in fact, they are rock solid. On the last page, Wilcox doesn’t hold out much of optimism about the future of the white Evangelical church.


I Can't Go to Church Anymore: Natalie Trust

Pain. God. Pain. Greeters and coffee. Smiles. Pain. Handshakes and names. Pain. Sermon and communion. Pain. Get in the car and drive home. Relief.

I’m not doing this anymore. This is crazy. I think this same thought over and over again week after week. But I’m a Christian, right? Christians are supposed to go to church!

After the dissolution of my marriage, I began to panic about Sunday morning around 3:30pm every Saturday afternoon. I also stressed over the whole church situation throughout the week at sporadic times, and especially during that awkward exchange that happened every now and then, and went something like, “So, Natalie, where do you go to church?” “Oh, I’ve been going to Imago Dei.” My response wasn’t quite a lie because I had been going…I had been going at one point in the not-too-distant past. “It is a really great church. Where are you going to church?” I quickly tried to deflect the question and place the burden of an answer on the other person. And this process would repeat itself, and I would always get out of explaining the truth.

The truth was that going to church, as a once married, now newly single person was incredibly painful. I confessed these feelings to my parents, and they suggested that I attend one of the recovery groups that Imago offered. I agreed to go. I needed the support of the church; I needed wise, compassionate women who understood some of the pain I was experiencing after a failed marriage due to deceit, adultery and sexual addiction.

It just so happened to be my 23rd birthday when I went to try out my first “recovery” group. It was labeled a “Women’s Healing Journey Group” and it pertained to women who were involved with someone who had an addiction to pornography or something of the like. It was their first meeting of the year, an informational meeting of sorts. I had no idea what to expect when I arrived at the church, but I certainly didn’t expect to leave feeling more alone than before.

For starters there was no welcoming. It was awkward enough to walk into a meeting like this, but then to just silently sit in a pew wondering what the hell you’re even doing there, the anger boiling within you toward the person who caused you to seek out a meeting like this in the first place; it just didn’t get off to a good start for me. So, I’m sitting there feeling horribly alone and embarrassed, and a woman starts passing out programs with worship song lyrics. Seriously? Great. Another woman gets up on the stage with a guitar and starts singing. WAIT! Someone, please, can you acknowledge why we are all here? Can you say something like, “Thank you for being here during what must be a very painful time. We hope you will find comfort, strength and the peace of God here.” Well that didn’t happen. The strumming of the guitar began and voices here and there followed along with the words on the bulletin. Needless to say it was a weird introduction to this “Women’s Healing Journey”.

Once the singing was over, a woman (who ended up being the leader of the group) got up to share her story. The short of it was this: Her husband had been in church leadership (not at Imago Dei), and had affairs with several women in the church. Apparently leading with integrity and God’s heart wasn’t working out so well for him; he decided to give the role of God over to his penis. I continued listening to this terrible story, but in the end their marriage was able to be restored and she was encouraging the rest of us that God can do miracles in our lives.

I agreed with her, I totally and completely felt she was speaking some truth. Jesus is a God of miracles, but her words also made me feel alone. I felt alone because I wondered, “What about people like me? What happens when there is no repentance? What happens when there is not ‘miracle’ in the broken marriage?”

Thank heaven we didn’t break into small groups after that to discuss her miracle story, but she did open up for questions. I listened as the other women asked questions. Each woman that spoke made me feel ill, some more than others. Not ill because I felt they were stupid or because I was envious that my own marriage had no hope for repair, but ill because all I heard was codependency and doubt of their own moral compass. One woman, she must have been in her late fifties, early sixties said, “Well, you know, I have known for years and years that my husband has been involved with pornography, strip clubs, adultery, you name it. And I’ve come to realize that all I can really do is pray.” I wanted to leap over the pew and rip her wedding ring off her finger. I wanted to scream. “All you can do is pray?

If you believe this statement is true, you believe a lie! I think that Satan loves to hear women in abusive situations say this, and many pastors even encourage the ‘silent, prayerful wife’ bit. Why? Well it is, intended to sound Christ-like. Beautifully deceptive isn’t it? You speak of your husband? You have no husband! You have no marriage. Your marriage ended when he chose lust, other women, and addiction over you and over God repeatedly without repentance of any kind.” I kept my mouth shut, I was already going through enough trauma, and I didn’t want to be asked to leave a church.

When the meeting was finally over, I caught the group leader’s attention to let her know I would not be filling out any forms or returning to the group; it just wasn’t the right fit for me. She was polite, but didn’t ask why I felt that way or how she could still be of support or how the church could be of support. That was that. Now, I do know that the group is still in existence and perhaps it is far more welcoming and it is far more beneficial to women who really need the church to rally around them. Rally around them exactly where they are at, be with them through their personal experience, but not simply in the hope of a miracle that may never take place.

What were my other options in that church? Well, sure I was college age, but that didn’t sound like a fit. I wasn’t a mother so I couldn’t be in a moms group. I wasn’t grieving the death of a loved one so one of those groups wouldn’t work either. Where was I to go?

Someone who is single, and dealing with intense emotional trouble has no where to go in the Evangelical church. No where to go. At least, this was my experience. I’m not exactly sure what the church can do to address this issue but here are a few of my suggestions:

  • Don’t assume every single person desires to be a part of a singles group-no matter their age!
  • When a single person, whether they have been through something painful and life changing as I had or not, comes to you and gives feedback about a group, don’t just tuck the feedback in the back of your mind. Please ask them to coffee or lunch or something to hear more of THEIR story. We need to be heard in the church.
  • Don’t point us to a home community before knowing more of our story first, without knowing it; you may be pushing us into another awkward and painful experience, putting a spotlight on our single situation in front of more strangers.

My absence from the church lasted for several years until one day I found my way home. But that’s another story.


Singleness: SGM Style

Recently I have been on a journey out of "churchianity" and into a deeper understanding of what it means to be a Christian and to be the church, as established by Christ (not a 501 c 3 organization called the church).
 
I will provide background in my email below, but what strikes me most about how singles are treated in the church is that they seem to want to treat our "condition" as temporary. Little focus is given to singles because the goal is to get you married so you can become a couple and really be part of the vision of the church. So why invest too much time in ministry to singles when the goal is to get you out of singlehood as soon as possible. I am stunned to believe that churches invest so much in children's ministry, college ministry, and family centered ministries and then if you don't get your MRS or MR in college (Bible college that is) you fall into a black hole. Singles are treated like they are in the waiting room of God's Will. We really don't matter until we get married and start having all those babies and homeschooling our kids. I also want to stress that by and large I believe most of my encounters within these churches were with earnest believers who truly want to serve God and were interacting with me in love – they are just misguided. 
 
Living in MD I am very familiar with SGM and actually attended one in Kingsville MD for 2 years. I was saved in a local IFB church at the age of 5. At 21 I found myself pregnant by my longtime boyfriend. We talked of getting married but things revealed themselves just in time to prevent me from making a big mistake. Although my church was supportive of my decision to have my baby and not marry the father, there was no end to reminders of my 2nd class position as an unmarried mother. There was always so much pressure to connect with the next single "godly" man who walked in the door who might be willing to "cover" me and be husband and father to our little broken down family. When my daughter was 2 I left this small Baptist church for a much larger non-denominational church – it's easier to hide in a congregation of 2000. What's the best cure for a single mom?  Get her married, get her covered ASAP!
 
My daughter was raised in this ND church (Greater Grace World Outreach) from the ages of 2 to 17. By working multiple jobs I was able to send her to Christian school for a few years and I attended church 3 times a week and as many Bible studies as would fit into my hectic single-mom working multiple jobs schedule could handle. The only help ever offered to me was to be "covered" by a pastor at the church. I was encouraged to align myself and my daughter with a certain pastor and his wife. This was actually a good experience as this couple was loving and understanding; not controlling or condescending. However, now I know better and realize how ridiculous and doctrinally unfounded it is that a single woman should be "covered" by another man. As with the Baptist church there was a focus on getting us single gals married off. So you can imagine how odd it seemed that this single gal just could not find someone suitable in a sea of amazing "godly" men. Truth be told, I was terrified of the expectation that I submit to a lord and master. At that time I believed the patriarchal teaching of male headship in the home and I resisted it because I was fearful I would be a failure. It's for sure and certain I would not be a "submissive" wife. 
 
A few years ago the senior pastor and founder of GGWO was forced to retire because of age and illness. A split occurred after we voted in a new pastor and it was overruled by a mob. I, along with many others, left the church and found myself at a SG church in Kingsville MD. A teacher at my daughter’s school and a few classmates who attended this church invited us to a teen weekend retreat. I was amazed at the open loving acceptance of this body of believers. We were quickly embraced and assigned to our respective small groups. I found myself attending two – one for myself and one for my daughter's teen group. Teen ministry involves the parents – you don't send your teen, you attend with your teen. This way, SGM can minister (indoctrinate) to both parents and teens together. So, here I am,still a single mom, working a full-time job that required travel and a part-time job, attending weekly Celebration services on Sunday and two small groups.
 
It was at SGM church that I was introduced to the odd concept that single men and women cannot be friends (sex always gets in the way). There were men in my small group that would actually mention being confused in how to deal with other single women without it appearing that they were "initiating" toward them. This term "initiating" refers to that wonderful moment when the godly man sees the beautiful godly woman God has placed in front of him and he moves toward her with the intention of "courtship" according to the rule book written by Joshua Harris. OMG! I was stunned. I expressed my confusion and made the error of saying that I read Joshua's book and found it to be extremely out of touch with reality or Biblical concepts of friendship between men and women in the body of Christ. Well, I was lovingly chastised and tutored in the way of SGM's model of singleness. If one is single and not in courtship, it is God's intention that they serve the married couples and their families.If a couple were in courtship they were often released from these duties so they can enjoy the process of preparing for marriage. We were strongly encouraged to serve at all functions that required child care. We singles were the ones strongly encouraged to take the earliest shifts of any ministry (some of them pre-dawn shifts) or prayer meetings because we had more time for these things (yeah, like I had no responsibilities as a single mom). So again, I fell into the black hole of singleness and waiting.
 
The pinnacle of my single experience at a SGM church was their annual singles conference. Again, we were lovingly encouraged to offer ourselves in ministry to everyone else in the church because God had blessed us with time and availability and that was our God given job. We gals were encouraged to lovingly submit to male authority and be accountable to another female (we had accountability meetings once a month). The young men were tutored in the ways of proper, "biblical" courtship, leadership, and headship. And then we had our session about modesty. Holy cow! I nearly fell out of my seat. The pastor over youth and singles stood up there in all his "humble" God-given authority and talked about how when his wife and little girl go shopping for clothes they come home and put on a fashion show for him so he can encourage them in correct modest choices and correct them in wrong choices of clothing. His wife sat in the front row beaming with love and pride; I was fighting waves of nausea as he described reclining in his chair and watching his wife and daughter spin around in their pretty new outfits for his viewing pleasure and endorsement. 
 
I believe the love between a father and his daughter is special.  It’s different, but no more special than the love I have with my daughter.  The extreme patriarchal teaching that is becoming all the rage in this wave of neo-Calvinism is too much. I raised my daughter alone and but I had a wonderful healthy father/daughter relationship with my own dad and I just believe this concept of "My prince has come and his name is daddy" (as seen over the bed of the little girl who dies in movie "Courageous") is wrong. I wonder if it blurs the lines of right and wrong and leads to so much abuse that is occurring in these patriarchal homes and churches. It stifles the correct relations between male/female and leads to constant worry and suspicion over crossing the line, showing too much leg or cleavage, or causing a man to fall into lust. This erroneous teaching prevents us from enjoying the communion we were meant to share as co-laborers in Christ.
 
As a 46 year old single mom of a grown daughter I am tired of being relegated to the back seat of Christian ministry because I am single and because I am female. My journey out of churchianity has lead me to discover amazing truths about my humanity and my position in Christ. Dale & Jonalyn Fincher of Soulation Ministries have been helpful and encouraging to me in this journey. Dan Brennan of the Sacred Friendship Project has also helped open my eyes about how men and women are meant to relate within the body of Christ. TWW has helped put words to the spiritual abuse that I suffered under hyper-authoritarian church leadership. I am tired of being marginalized as a single and as woman and I am delighted to learn that this is not how God intended it to be. I do believe that the journey I took to get here is important and that God cares about the journey. I am not in the waiting room of God's Will. He is directing my path and using me to minister to others (mostly women) who have been marginalized as well. I have been shunned for this, labeled a non-believer, lost a few friends over it. But, it was time for those friends to go.
 
I have no idea if I will remain single, it's not what I imagined for myself and I am not committed to it. But, here I am. It is a shame so many churches see our singleness as temporary and refuse to minister to us a way that allows us to remain single without shame.
 
Thanks for your interest in this subject and for giving the opportunity to share.


Single Women Are Inferior

After much internal debate I finally settled on the metaphor of poisoning to describe my experience being a single women in the church. No lethal doses, just a slow relentless sapping of my life-physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual. For the most part it wasn’t the sermons or preaching that did all the damage, in fact, most of the harm came from the culture within the churches and the broader Christian community I grew up in. To be fair, I grew up in an ultra conservative branch of Christianity, one that viewed the SBC as backslidden liberals who where just barely Christian, in other words a bit on the extreme side.

The poison was found in the little things, but the message was clear. Women are lesser, inferior to men. It came in things like casual dismissive comments about “smart” women. The disapproving glance or sigh when certain clothes where worn. The stories of “pray for so-and-so’s family, their daughter went to college and now she wants to be-something (basically anything other than a nurse, teacher, or SAHM)”. The not so subtle shaming of any female who got pregnant without being married (regardless of how the pregnancy happened). The type of books deemed must read for godly Christian girls and women and the ones deemed inappropriate. The whole sale adoption of the purity culture and it attending emphasis on female virginity and a kind of hyper focus on modesty.

God only ever referred to in the masculine, any use of the feminine with God was considered sacrilegious at best or heresy. Bible studies that where insubstantial fluff (the tough doctrinal stuff apparently was deemed to difficult for our delicate lady brains, along with math, science, and any non-feminine type career choices) and/or assumed those attending were married with children. The unspoken segregation within the church based on culturally normative stages of life, namely marriage=basic adult and then having kids=real, mature adult. The assumptions made about unmarried women and women who where married but had no children. Must not forget the horrible family and country destroying evil also know as feminists.

Only men could be in positions of authority or importance-even if it was just being the greeter as people walked into church, or praying before a church pot luck, or reading the announcement in the bulletin, or making the first and seconding motions in a business meeting. Assuming all women like to cook, clean, take care of kids, etc., etc., etc.

In defense of my parents this my own perspective, I didn’t have the life experiences of my parents who joined as adults and could as the saying goes, “eat the meat, spit out the bones”. I just inhaled it all and as my parents agreed with some of the things and seldom indicated otherwise on the other things, I assumed they carried the beliefs to the same logical extremes that I did. The cumulative weight of these messages was inescapable, God for whatever reason had decided to let me be born a second class citizen, an inferior product good only for marrying a godly man that I would of course dutifully submit to and having children to raise in the nurture and admonition of the Lord, i.e.. obedient and saved. At least that’s what I felt the message was and I hated it.

I didn’t want to be the subordinate, meekly obeying some man no matter how godly he might be, I wanted us to be equals, partners, though I didn’t know the term egalitarian back then. Worse, in the bubble I lived in, I didn’t want children, no particular reason, just as far back as I can remember I haven’t want children, not that I told anyone that, I had no desire to be on the “prayer” list. And I was/am book smart, love reading, learning, and the tougher the intellectual challenge the better I liked it, but that wasn’t a trait valued in women in my circles, not even at the little fundamentalist college I went too.

I spent my teens and young adult years doing my best to fly under the radar, not letting anyone see my doubts, questions and fears. I also did my best to suppress them internally as well, just ignore the nagging questions and maybe they’ll all go away. Surely my doubts where a sign I wasn’t trusting in God enough, I’m a mere human and a women at that who am I to question God’s choices no matter how crummy they appear to me. I must be less spiritual no one around me seemed bothered by the inequality, the cognitive dissonance, the stifled feeling of being born a square peg in a round peg world.

I knew the human heart was desperately wicked and emotions where not to be trusted, especially ones that caused doubt and raised questions. Of course as a women, I knew that applied double to me, women’s emotions where always seeking to lead one astray, away from God and towards the World and one’s own selfish desires. Wasn’t my own struggle proof of that?

And so I kept trying to have more faith, more trust, more belief, until I got tired of trying and failing over and over again and gave up shortly after college. I put my head down, shoved the troubling doubts and treacherous emotions into a dark corner, did the bare minimum “spiritually” (bible reading, prayer, church, witnessing, etc.) to not feel too guilty, and perfected the “rebellious” double life I had been leading since my teens. Although, by rebellious I meant wearing pants, getting a second set of ear piercings, listening to secular music, going to the movies, reading all sorts of non-approved books and avoiding all potential dates “good godly men” or not. All you parents may now feel jealous *grin*

So long as I didn’t think to hard about what a miserable failure of a godly women I was being (according to my little Christian sub culture) I was okay and enjoyed my life.

A little over two years ago a casual comment from a friend and the world of internet bloggers changed everything. A fellow church member who had also been born and raised in the same sub-culture and had since migrated to a more evangelical setting mentioned I might enjoy reading the blog “Quivering Daughters”. I read the entire archives in a single weekend and followed the links to other blogs including The Wartburg Watch, Commandments of Men, Grace for My Heart, and Stuff Fundies Like which I likewise devoured. All the emotions and questions and doubts that I had suppressed for so long came rushing back with a vengeance only this time I felt both hope and a lot of fear, if what I was reading was true my whole spiritual house was about to be demolished and I had no idea what, if anything, would be left. But the lure of finally having some answers and the constant reassurance from the blogs that God’s love and grace would be with me, no matter what, gave me the courage to let it all go and start over.

Its been a scary, emotional, uncertain, turbulent ride ever since, and I love it! I love the freedom to ask questions and have doubts, to explore the myriad versions of Christianity as well as other religions, to meet and fellowship with other brothers and sisters in Christ that before I would have believed where unsaved. To really dig into the sciences that I avoided before and marvel at the complexity of creation. To meet and befriend those I would have seen only as witnessing opportunities before and learn they are people with their own unique stories. To work with all those, regardless of religious affiliation, who are seeking to make the world a better place.

As I moved into the broader church culture at first I was thrilled, women where allowed to do so much more! But as I looked more closely I began to recognize some of the same beliefs and attitudes I had grown up with, a nicer more palatable version its true, but the roots where the same. As I learned more about things like feminism, privilege, rape culture, ableism, etc. I realized that the beliefs about women I was encountering in the churches I visited where mirroring the larger culture. Of all I’ve seen since leaving the churches of my upbringing this is the most disturbing.

You see, I was always taught that the church was the light in darkness, salt to the world, leading the way in helping others, lifting up the downtrodden, seeking justice for all. Of course it’s a broken world so it would be an uphill struggle but still, the church would be at the front leading the way. Call me an idealist, but I believed with all my heart that this was true, it’s the biggest thing that kept me attending church, I wanted to be a part of making that difference. Turns out the beliefs about women and how women are treated in churches was just the tip of the iceberg, a symptom of a far bigger problem. What I found was more often than not the churches either a) have mindlessly adopted the elements of culture that hurt others or b) are actively fighting against changes that would help people, all in the name of God. And for me, that is now the hardest thing about being a single women in the church. 

Lydia's Corner: 1 Chronicles 9:1-10:14 Acts 27:21-44 Psalm 8:1-9 Proverbs 18:23-24

Comments

Singleness: I Am So Done With Church — 94 Comments

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    I haven’t read all the comments on the previous singles thread yet, but I wanted to offer a disclaimer.

    Un-married people are not asking to get preferential treatment by the Christian community or by churches. Singles ask only to be treated equally and respectfully by churches, because they are not.

    Usually, singles (and their needs) are either ignored or, if noticed, singles are treated horribly.

    I offer this comment because there are at least one to three married Christian people who visit this blog regularly who complain about singles. They say things like, “stop wanting church to be all about you.”

    And it’s attitudes like that which push me away from churches and the faith altogether.

    Singles do not want church to be “all about them.” That is a strawman argument and misrepresentation of what singles are saying.

    The needs of parents are met by churches, the needs of children are met.

    Some churches cater to widows (though some churches ignore widows, that is true). But there are little classes and recovery groups for the divorced, those in grief, college students, young professionals, and on and on. -But for singles over the age of 30? No.

    Even some late 20s singles who still go to church say they feel out of place in churches.

    Most singles classes – the Sunday school classes for adult singles- are Forgotten Zones.

    Adult singles classes at churches are usually filled with the socially awkward, unattractive, and weird (which is bad if you were raised, as I was, that church is the appropriate place to meet a Christian marital partner).

    If you are a Chrisitan female wanting marriage, forget it. The single women out number the single males.

    Churches either are scared or “weirded out” by older, single adults (and by older, I mean over the age of 30, not necessarily seniors over the age of 70).

    Or else, churches just do not care about adult singles. They only care about reaching young married couples with kids, or the teens and 20 somethings.

    Depending on what church you go to, if you are single over 30 years of age, you may be totally ignored-entire sermons addressing singleness are never offered. (But every third sermon is about marriage.)

    Some preachers only mention singles in passing, and that at the start of a marriage sermon to say, ‘And if you are single now, just listen to my marriage sermon today because it will help you when you are married.’ But no real effort by preachers is made to discuss singleness from the pulpit on a Sunday morning.

    Also, some of us never marry, I’m in my early 40s and still single, so to start with the riff, “Hey this marriage sermon can still meet your needs singles” is a lot of hooey.

    Anyway, singles don’t mind so much that churches sometimes offer to help married couples or that they want to do the occasional marriage sermon series, but there is a most definite anti-singles prejudice in churches.

    Churches need to balance out all the marriage bru- ha- ha and sermonizing and programs by making sure others who do not fall into married (or Married With Kids) groups are supported too.

    Singles in the Christian faith are not asking to have married couples and preachers fan them with ostrich feathers and carry them peeled grapes on velour covered pillows, they are just asking to be treated with respect and courtesy.

    As it stands, adult singles, who are about 45% (and climbing) of the American population do not feel wanted or welcomed by many churches, so they stop attending.


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    I will provide background in my email below, but what strikes me most about how singles are treated in the church is that they seem to want to treat our “condition” as temporary. Little focus is given to singles because the goal is to get you married so you can become a couple and really be part of the vision of the church. — Singleness SGM Style

    A commenter on an Internet Monk thread years ago said it best:
    “Then you get married, and are allowed to sit at the grown-ups’ table with all the other grown-ups.”

    So you can imagine how odd it seemed that this single gal just could not find someone suitable in a sea of amazing “godly” men. Truth be told, I was terrified of the expectation that I submit to a lord and master. — Singleness SGM Style

    And with all the Purity Culture and slut-shaming, how many of these Godly(TM) Men would have anything to do with a Divorced Woman(TM) in the first place?

    If one is single and not in courtship, it is God’s intention that they serve the married couples and their families.If a couple were in courtship they were often released from these duties so they can enjoy the process of preparing for marriage. We were strongly encouraged to serve at all functions that required child care. We singles were the ones strongly encouraged to take the earliest shifts of any ministry (some of them pre-dawn shifts) or prayer meetings because we had more time for these things (yeah, like I had no responsibilities as a single mom). — Singleness SGM Style

    Yet another reason to Get Married ASAP. So you can have the singles as YOUR servants. After all, it’s not like THEY have Families to Focus on.

    In a society where slavery is universal, you either Hold the Whip or you Feel the Whip. And the only concept of “freedom” becomes “Now *I* get to be a Master! Now *I* Hold the Whip!”

    And where there’s a tradition of hazing, i.e. putting the newbies through crap, there is no incentive to change once you’re no longer a newbie. “Why should THEY have it easy? I didn’t!”


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    In defense of my parents this my own perspective, I didn’t have the life experiences of my parents who joined as adults and could as the saying goes, “eat the meat, spit out the bones”.

    What if it’s all bones and no meat?


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    My church doesn’t even offer a singles’ group or a singles’ class. And we have a membership of about 500.

    When I pointed this out, the response was, “Maybe you should start one then!” But I’m in my late 40s, married for 25 years, with teenage kids. I feel no calling, nor do I have the experience, to start a new ministry in the church of any kind. Why wasn’t the response, “Yes, I see that lack. Let’s put out a request for someone who might want to head such a ministry”? As it was, the question to me seemed merely a way to avoid having to deal with the issue.


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    Natalie, you wrote:

    Each woman that spoke made me feel ill, some more than others. Not ill because I felt they were stupid or because I was envious that my own marriage had no hope for repair, but ill because all I heard was codependency and doubt of their own moral compass. One woman, she must have been in her late fifties, early sixties said, “Well, you know, I have known for years and years that my husband has been involved with pornography, strip clubs, adultery, you name it. And I’ve come to realize that all I can really do is pray.” I wanted to leap over the pew and rip her wedding ring off her finger. I wanted to scream. “All you can do is pray?

    This is exactly what results when the church takes a zero-divorce stance and put pressure on the innocent party to put up and shut up. As a result, the church “looks good,” washes its hands of the situation, and puts all the blame is put on the “good” spouse. [I’m starting to rant. This isn’t directed at you, Natalie.]

    Churches have to accept that some people are not marriage material, not for this spouse, not for anyone. Extreme narcissists and sociopaths are not marriage material…ever. Sometimes they charm their way into a marriage to a nice Christian who puts up with it as long as possible. But a decent marriage with an extreme narcissist or sociopath is completely impossible.

    Who pays the price? The “good” spouse. The church doesn’t have a say in your personal life. It’s not your pastor’s life. It’s not your elder’s life. It’s yours.


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    One of the singles in the OP said,

    This way, SGM can minister (indoctrinate) to both parents and teens together. So, here I am,still a single mom, working a full-time job that required travel and a part-time job, attending weekly Celebration services on Sunday and two small groups.

    I’ve seen the same reluctance by other single Christian women to marry. They are afraid to marry because of the “man is the head” type teaching.

    Much Christian teaching about gender roles and marriage is what is keeping singles single.

    It’s so ironic. The talking heads in Christianity keep worrying that Christians are not marrying.

    They keep blaming Christian women for allegedly putting career before marriage, or on feminism, but a lot of it that I see can be traced right back to the very teachings that churches themselves have been distributing the last 40 – 50 years.

    Like this:

    It was at SGM church that I was introduced to the odd concept that single men and women cannot be friends (sex always gets in the way).

    … leads to constant worry and suspicion over crossing the line, showing too much leg or cleavage, or causing a man to fall into lust.

    LOL, yep.

    But, the truth is that churches think single women cannot be friends with anyone, not with married men either, because all of us single ladies are saucy little spit fires with no self control who will seduce a married man in a heart beat (and even if he’s tubby, out of shape, balding, and has bad breath!), so keep us away from yer men. 🙄

    The OP also wrote,

    and I just believe this concept of “My prince has come and his name is daddy” (as seen over the bed of the little girl who dies in movie “Courageous”) is wrong.

    Seriously?! I have not seen the movie. I have only read reviews of it. But there’s a sign like that above the girl’s bed in the movie?

    I’m fine with daughters loving their fathers, but that is beyond the pale.


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    @ Daisy:

    Shoot, the right part did not get quoted. I meant to quote this part:

    At that time I believed the patriarchal teaching of male headship in the home and I resisted it because I was fearful I would be a failure. It’s for sure and certain I would not be a “submissive” wife.

    As I was saying above, I’ve seen a few other single Christian women online say this is one reason they have put off marriage:
    not feminism, not love of career over money, not that they hate marriage, not due to selfishness, but due to many church’s teaching that a husband is in authority over his wife. They find this scary and insulting.


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    By the third or fourth OP:

    The whole sale adoption of the purity culture and it attending emphasis on female virginity and a kind of hyper focus on modesty.

    I’ve stayed a virgin into my forties in part because I believe the Bible teaches the concept of being a virgin until marriage.

    I get no support from Christian culture on this topic at all. I get the reverse of it, actually, as do other Christian virgins who are adults.

    Some Christians, now including high rankers of SBC and Christian bloggers of various denominations, actually insult the concept of remaining sexually pure until marriage (but saying they do respect it – but they don’t).

    Such individuals basically spend their radio broadcasts or blogs saying Christian virgins are “prideful” and they need to accept nobody else is a virgin these days. We’re supposed to be ultra lenient on Texual sin, they say.

    Virginity is not being supported in Christian circles anymore, not for any Christian who is above mid 20s or older.

    They’ll tell the teens to not have sex and that virginity is great, but when you are over 30 and still a virgin? You get no respect or support for it.


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    I finished reading the last OP, “Single Women Are Inferior”

    I related to what she said and agreed with it too.


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    IN agreement with Daisy said, I want to add that I don’t advocate special treatment for “singles”. We just want to be seen as full members of the body of Christ. This can be done in the context of a singles ministry, but be careful not to continue the marginalizataion of this group with a special ministry. It can probably best be done by the entire church community accepting us singles just as we are – joint heirs with Christ and endowed with all He is.


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    Daisy wrote:

    It’s so ironic. The talking heads in Christianity keep worrying that Christians are not marrying.

    It’s a church growth strategy called Bedroom Evangelism.
    How else can they Outbreed the Heathen?


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    Daisy wrote:

    They’ll tell the teens to not have sex and that virginity is great, but when you are over 30 and still a virgin? You get no respect or support for it.

    Instead, they label you a Perv.


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    Daisy wrote:

    But, the truth is that churches think single women cannot be friends with anyone, not with married men either, because all of us single ladies are saucy little spit fires with no self control who will seduce a married man in a heart beat (and even if he’s tubby, out of shape, balding, and has bad breath!), so keep us away from yer men.

    The same rationale behind the burqa and honor killings.

    The OP also wrote,

    and I just believe this concept of “My prince has come and his name is daddy” (as seen over the bed of the little girl who dies in movie “Courageous”) is wrong.

    Seriously?! I have not seen the movie. I have only read reviews of it. But there’s a sign like that above the girl’s bed in the movie?
    I’m fine with daughters loving their fathers, but that is beyond the pale.

    First reaction: Punch line of a forgotten bawdy joke, “Incest is Best”.

    Second reaction: Craster’s Keep, by the Wall in northern Westeros, “Game of Thrones”. Probably the most extreme fictional expression of the punch line above since Aeolous in “The Odyssey”.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    It’s a church growth strategy called Bedroom Evangelism.
    How else can they Outbreed the Heathen?

    Unfortunately, that’s not their only motive.

    A lot of the Christians shedding tears over delayed marriage (or none at all) are convinced that marriage is God’s only or best plan for everyone.

    Not all of them do that; some Christians have double minds about the topic.

    They think marriage is the “norm” and there is something wrong with singleness, but when actually confronted with a single who desires marriage, they begin barfing up the feel good, religious- sounding platitudes about singleness being oh so groovy. (I don’t like either view point.)

    I like marriage as much as the next gal, and I would like to be married (but am also basically doing OK as a single), but I am really tired of the idea that married people are better, more godly, more mature than singles, or that singleness is somehow lacking, or not as good as the married state.

    It’s as if these some of these married Christian people’s Bible versions lack the verses where Paul says to be single is to be preferred, so far as doing the Lord’s work goes, and how married life can bring troubles.

    -NOT- that I think singles who want marriage should be hit over the head with such verses, though.

    I’m a single who wants to get married. I don’t want or need one more Christian telling me how super terrific singleness is and what-a-gift singleness is.

    At the same time, please don’t treat me like a half-person or like a harlot Jezebel because I do not have a spouse.


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    In defense of my parents this my own perspective, I didn’t have the life experiences of my parents who joined as adults and could as the saying goes, “eat the meat, spit out the bones”. I just inhaled it all and as my parents agreed with some of the things and seldom indicated otherwise on the other things, I assumed they carried the beliefs to the same logical extremes that I did.

    This was my experience too. My parents are great, seriously great, but I have a lot of problems with the evangelical churches I was raised in (mostly due to the issues that TWW so faithfully dissects.) Many of the adult conversations I’ve had with my mom have been shocking to me, since for years I assumed she toed the evangelical “party line”–those were the messages I got day in and day out at church, Christian high school, Sunday school, youth group… As the OP points out, the “cumulative weight” of the church’s messages on a child is much different than on an adult, who has other life experiences and his/her own experiences and common sense and discernment.

    My mom came to evangelicalism as an adult and, because she was an adult with an adult’s understanding of the world, did not absorb everything equally, but knew how to prioritize. She knew how to weigh things, how to tell what the bones were and spit them out accordingly. As a child I did not know how to do that. Thankfully, and in no small part thanks to my mom’s example, I am very capable of doing that now. But it’s been a long road, and I was not helped at all by Christian-ese culture.

    Funnily enough, I’ve found some solace in Catholicism lately–and my mother was raised Catholic and could not get out of there quickly enough!


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    Family First! — Not a Biblical Viewpoint
    By Ben Witherington

    And the great danger is of so prioritizing and idolizing the physical family that you turn it into a golden calf, and worship at its altar. Of course, I am not speaking totally literally, but often the ‘put family first agenda’ comes perilously close to this sort of narcissistic form of idolatry and self-worship.

    … Of course the latter category includes our physical family, but it certainly does not prioritize them such that we are commanded to love family above or to the neglect of neighbor.


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    @ KR Wordgazer:
    I’ve seen that same comment about issues than singleness. One of the biggest failings of the Catholic Church in the US is the lack of personal evangelization. I have expressed that a number of times. One time I basically got the same answer (from some I met on retreat) Pray about it, and don’t be surprised if the Lord doesn’t call you to do that.

    Good staff officers tend to be lousy leaders, and vice versa. SIGH


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    One of the hypotheses of the Wilcox paper (nothing to do w/singleness but I just had to bring this up):

    “H4: This decline will be associated, at least in part, with changing attitudes toward premarital sex, as moderately-educated views have moved in a more liberal direction and college-educated views have moved in a more conservative direction since the 1970s on this issue.”

    So as Vision Forum warns their followers not to send their children to college, or else they’ll come home with libertine views about sex – the reality is that college-educated people are less likely to hold these liberal views than people who only have a high school diploma.

    Interesting. Methinks Doug may be a little off (like we needed a study to tell us that).


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    @ Hester:

    I’ve read numbers that only 7% of first marriages end in divorce if both people have bachelor degrees or more.


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    Hester wrote:

    So as Vision Forum warns their followers not to send their children to college, or else they’ll come home with libertine views about sex – the reality is that college-educated people are less likely to hold these liberal views than people who only have a high school diploma.

    Hester (and Hoppy the Toad)– Right. That’s what so interesting. People with 4-year college degrees marry more, divorce less, and are less likely to “lose their faith” than high school grads.


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    Conservative men, both political and religious, appear to be terrified of women in their fully functioning sexual prime. The maiden or virgin has an exalted place in society while the widow, wise woman or crone is at least respected. But a fertile woman not controlled by marriage is seen as a threat. And so you get the intended slurs of prideful or feminist or radical as a way to denigrate us. This is a story as old as christianity itself when the catholics first tried to bury the pagan religions in the legend of Mary.


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    @ Janey & Hoppy:

    I wonder if those statistics would still hold true if the degree was from an institution like Bob Jones, PCC, or other “fundy” colleges.


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    Hester wrote:

    @ Janey & Hoppy:
    I wonder if those statistics would still hold true if the degree was from an institution like Bob Jones, PCC, or other “fundy” colleges.

    If they did, it would probably only be because the couples thought divorce was always wrong, not because 93% had decent or good marriages.


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    I’m happy to report that one of the women in her twenties from my former FIC church graduated from college and moved to another state to work. She transferred to Wheaton at 21 and the other men hassled her dad about letting her move out of the house. I can only imagine what they must have said to him when he announced she was moving to another state to work.

    She is the only young adult from that church to move out of the house before marriage (that I know of). Everyone else has either skipped college or lived at home and gone somewhere nearby. I will be mentally cheering for each one that moves away or lives on campus. Even if they aren’t trying to escape, wider exposure to the world outside of patriarchal homeschooling is a good thing.

    And while I commented on yesterday’s post about the low marriage rate among these young adults, I am relieved for the young women in one way. For every 18-24 months longer they are single, that will be one less baby that they might not want but have because of being quiverful. I know a women who I guess is about 32-33 at the most. She and her husband were raised under Bill Gothard and are expecting numbe 7 next month. (They actually used some contraception after having four kids in under four years – no twins either.) At their rate, she could have another 7 kids before menopause.


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    nmgirl wrote:

    This is a story as old as christianity itself when the catholics first tried to bury the pagan religions in the legend of Mary.

    Are you saying that the Catholic church promoted all the Mary adoration stuff to take the place of pagan goddess worship? I’ve never looked into that, but it wouldn’t surprise me. On the other hand, I’m wondering if maybe you meant something else. Perhaps you could clarify.


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    nmgirl wrote:

    The maiden or virgin has an exalted place in society

    Sadly that has not been the usually experience for this now 40 something Christian virgin. I get beat up for not fooling around by Non Christian and Christian culture as d other adult Christian virgins past 25/30.


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    @ Daisy:

    Daisy, you’ve mentioned before about being looked down about for staying a virgin so long. What kind of stuff do people say? I don’t know anybody in your situation, and I don’t think I’ve heard any Christians say stuff like this. Of course, that might be because I spent half my years since becoming a Christian at a church were having a crush on someone was practically considered adultery.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Un-married people are not asking to get preferential treatment by the Christian community or by churches. Singles ask only to be treated equally and respectfully by churches, because they are not.

    This has parallels with another modern rights movement which is often accused of wanting “special rights,” but I really shouldn’t go there. Regardless, this describes my feelings completely.

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    A commenter on an Internet Monk thread years ago said it best:
    “Then you get married, and are allowed to sit at the grown-ups’ table with all the other grown-ups.”

    …unless you have a degree in something with which they need help. Then, by virtue of your volunteer status, you’re given provisional access to a cramped corner of the grown-ups’ table.

    My olde Independent Fundamentalist Baptist church was mostly bones with a few scraps of meat once in a while. But I was a boring, chaste high school student who volunteered a lot, so I wasn’t in a position to experience anything as described here.

    The unaffiliated conservative Baptist church I now attend has accepted me as a not-yet-married single mid-20’s guy and involved me on an institutional level. However, I have very few personal connections because, like HUG said, marrieds almost always stick with marrieds. As an introvert, the lack of multitudinous relationships doesn’t bother me as much as it might bother some, but I still feel lonely. We’ll have to wait to see if my feelings of loneliness change over time, because, well…

    I currently live in the tension of worrying how the church will react if they figure out that I’m stuck in this celibacy thing for the long haul. Even more so if they figure out why (oddly enough, I was so deep into Narnia that I didn’t discover this for myself until recently). Once in a while, church people ask me when I’m going to settle down and get married and have kids. One can only avoid that question so many ways before people become suspicious. Again, we’ll see.


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    Daisy wrote:

    If you are a Chrisitan female wanting marriage, forget it. The single women out number the single males.

    With all due respect, the market isn’t so great for single Christian males either, especially those of us who’ve reached middle age. Consider how we’ve been harshly judged by the likes of self-appointed scolds such as Alex Chediak, Debbie Maken, Albert Mohler and Candice Watters. Some of these scolds have even gone so far as to invent new “sins” that aren’t even listed in the Bible. For example, delaying marriage and single men not sufficiently pursuing single women are now considered “sins.” Never mind the fact that I’ve been the dumpee rather than the dumper in my relationships to date.


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    Josh wrote:

    I currently live in the tension of worrying how the church will react if they figure out that I’m stuck in this celibacy thing for the long haul.

    Maybe we can help you come up with excuses. You know, you’re married to your job. Or you have the gift of singleness. Or you have a list of places you want to travel. But frankly, it’s none of anyone’s business, and if they become too nosy and cannot handle the truth, you may have to be ready to move on.


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    I’m a happily single woman in my mid-50s (never married or sexually intimate with anyone) with a fulfilling career and ministry. I think we sometimes get so wrapped up in our identities as singles that we forget all that God has for singles as His unique, loved children. I’m not a raging feminist, either–just someone who decided that accepting the place where God has brought me is better than moping. If God every surprises me with a spouse, I’ll be delighted, but I’d never trade the journey we’ve had up until now. For the record, I flee singles groups as I find the people in them are too fixated on finding a mate or verbally abusing their ex. I’d rather be enjoying God and His people.


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    singleman wrote:

    Consider how we’ve been harshly judged by the likes of self-appointed scolds such as Alex Chediak, Debbie Maken, Albert Mohler and Candice Watters.

    Singleman, I think it’s best to ignore them. What gives them the right to know what’s best for you personally? How would they like it if people poked around in their home and marriage and gave them a running critique?


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    @ anonymous:
    I like hearing stories like this. The finest singles I know rarely or never attend singles groups.


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    @ HoppyTheToad:

    1. you’re to blame for not producing kids;
    2. you are “prideful” for caring about it, expecting other unmarried Christians to also be virgins (SBC spokes heads, well known bloggers);
    3. virginity is not a big deal, virginity is “idolized” among Christians, all Christians should stop making a big deal out of it, it’s judgmental to be a virgin/ to expect virginity from other believers or one’s future spouse/ to proclaim one’s self a virgin
    (various emergent Christian bloggers; said to ease consciences of people who fornicated, effect is to minimize those of us who are really virgins)
    4. suspected of being a weirdo / homosexual by Christians (said out right to some of us by family, friends, preachers)


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    singleman wrote:

    With all due respect, the market isn’t so great for single Christian males either, especially those of us who’ve reached middle age. Consider how we’ve been harshly judged by the likes of self-appointed scolds such as Alex Chediak, Debbie Maken, Albert Mohler and Candice Watters.

    I never said singleness is a cake walk for middle aged, single males and that you have your pick of singles – though I think it’s tons easier for a middle aged guy to get a mate than a middle aged female, because all the middle aged guys want a 25 – 30 year old.

    Yes, I realize men get criticized too, I made note of it in another post either this thread, or the other one about singles, but as I am female, I write from a female perspective.

    The guys you listed, the Makens, Mohlers etc, also blame single women for being single.

    Maken (and I think Watters), says we ladies didn’t look hard and long enough for a man in our 20s so it’s our fault we are single now, and Mohler wrote a piece a few years ago saying single women are single because they pursued career, where-upon a female single wrote an open letter to Mohler criticizing him, saying she hast to have a job to pay her rent.

    I’m never married and in my 40s.

    To top that off, they (Mohler, Maken) and regular Christian folks online tell women my age “too late for you, you’ve lost your youth/beauty, no man will want you now.” So we get the “you’re ugly, old hags” put downs, in addition to the occasional “you must be gay” comments.


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    @ HoppyTheToad:

    P.S. Please get a copy of the book “Singled Out: Why Celibacy Must Be Reinvented in Today’s Church” by
    Christine Colón, Bonnie Field. They have more examples.


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    HoppyTheToad wrote:

    If they did, it would probably only be because the couples thought divorce was always wrong, not because 93% had decent or good marriages.

    Hoppy — I agree with your claim although I don’t know how to put a number to it. There is so much pressure for Christians couples to stay together that they don’t divorce when they ought to (sex offending, child abuse, serial adultery, domestic violence). And when they do divorce, the church turns against them. As I mentioned elsewhere, even though my divorce (a million years ago) was absolutely necessary, I was never invited to my small group Bible study ever again, even though we as a couple had attended for 5 years. The leaders would rather have a man living a double life and a wife who’s faking a smile than a real person who needs to be part of the community of believers. My story is very common among the innocent parties who stayed in the church.


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    @ Daisy:
    All 3 books on the market with the title “Singled Out” are excellent:

    1. Colon’s – Fantastic and thorough research on the misunderstandings and double standards in the church when it comes to singles.

    2. DePaulo’s – The best research. This Harvard Ph.D. decimates the studies that say that marrieds are happier and healthier than singles. It simply isn’t true. Lifelong single, those who are single-at-heart are much better off than anyone imagines.

    3. Nicholson’s – After World War 1 in the UK, there were literally 1.5 million fewer marriage age men than women. Excellent book full of case studies of what these “surplus women” did, despite the fact that society blamed them for not being married. (Hint: If you as a woman can vote, receive Social Security when you retire, and not suffer gender-based job discrimination, you can thank the million women in England who fought for it 90 years ago!)


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    Lori wrote:

    I don’t advocate special treatment for “singles”. We just want to be seen as full members of the body of Christ.

    Of course! That is why I want to highlight singles and the church. Singles need to be integrated into the important functions and leadership of the church.


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    Janey wrote:

    The leaders would rather have a man living a double life and a wife who’s faking a smile than a real person who needs to be part of the community of believers.

    This needs to be repeated and highlighted.

    The leaders would rather have a man living a double life and a wife who’s faking a smile than a real person who needs to be part of the community of believers.

    And if I knew how to make it bigger font, I’d do that too.


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    singleman wrote:

    Consider how we’ve been harshly judged by the likes of self-appointed scolds such as Alex Chediak, Debbie Maken, Albert Mohler and Candice Watters

    This gets me mad, truly mad. Jesus and Paul would not have done well in this group.
    Here is the bottom line. They have successfully thrown out anyone who does not agree with their theology. Now, they have to go at those within the fold. There must always be a scapegoat which helps them avoid looking at their own sins. They point out every sin, including they made up sins, but their own. On this issue, they are blatantly wrong.


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    Josh wrote:

    I currently live in the tension of worrying how the church will react if they figure out that I’m stuck in this celibacy thing for the long haul

    If you went to church with me, I would be so proud to know you. You know more about sacrifice than many of these blowhards.


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    Dee wrote:

    Here is the bottom line. They have successfully thrown out anyone who does not agree with their theology. Now, they have to go at those within the fold.

    When you’ve gotten rid of all the Heathen, start on the Heretics.

    What do predators eat after they’ve killed off all the prey?


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    Daisy wrote:

    To top that off, they (Mohler, Maken) and regular Christian folks online tell women my age “too late for you, you’ve lost your youth/beauty, no man will want you now.”

    Time for the Gospelly facelift and Biblical boob job…


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    Josh wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    A commenter on an Internet Monk thread years ago said it best:
    “Then you get married, and are allowed to sit at the grown-ups’ table with all the other grown-ups.”

    …unless you have a degree in something with which they need help. Then, by virtue of your volunteer status, you’re given provisional access to a cramped corner of the grown-ups’ table.

    Until the instant you outlive your usefulness.

    Just like with a sociopath.


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    HoppyTheToad wrote:

    Are you saying that the Catholic church promoted all the Mary adoration stuff to take the place of pagan goddess worship? I’ve never looked into that, but it wouldn’t surprise me.

    It’s actually a standard piece of Anti-Catholic propaganda. Dates back to the Reformation Wars, where “Christian hateth Mary whom God kissed in Galilee”.


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    Janey wrote:

    Maybe we can help you come up with excuses. You know, you’re married to your job. Or you have the gift of singleness. Or you have a list of places you want to travel. But frankly, it’s none of anyone’s business, and if they become too nosy and cannot handle the truth, you may have to be ready to move on.

    Thanks for the suggestions. If those don’t work, I’ll borrow a line from the Christian Brights1 and deadpan, “Oh, I’m just selfish.”

    1 Christian Brights is a term [of endearment..?] I just made up for Mohler, et. al.


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    nmgirl wrote:

    Conservative men, both political and religious, appear to be terrified of women in their fully functioning sexual prime. The maiden or virgin has an exalted place in society while the widow, wise woman or crone is at least respected. But a fertile woman not controlled by marriage is seen as a threat. And so you get the intended slurs of prideful or feminist or radical as a way to denigrate us. This is a story as old as christianity itself when the catholics first tried to bury the pagan religions in the legend of Mary.

    Wow! I’ve never thought of it from this perspective but it sure does line up. When my daughter first started asserting her independence (something I wholeheartedly supported) she encountered the “b” word. I shruged it off and explained that the “b” word is just a weak man’s word for a strong woman that fills him with fear.
    Why oh why are so many of this world’s wows and challenges based on man’s fear?


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    formerly anonymous wrote:

    Janey wrote:
    The leaders would rather have a man living a double life and a wife who’s faking a smile than a real person who needs to be part of the community of believers.
    This needs to be repeated and highlighted.
    The leaders would rather have a man living a double life and a wife who’s faking a smile than a real person who needs to be part of the community of believers.
    And if I knew how to make it bigger font, I’d do that too.

    Highlight. Repeat. Highlight. Repeat …


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    @ HoppyTheToad:

    Do you thing that’s because of more education or because these people took time to grow up and experience life outside of their parent’s world before marrying and starting a family? In other words, they developed their own personhood and thought processing before making major life decisions.


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    @ Dee:

    Last night I re-discovered a two-part series titled “Sex and the Single Guy” that Boundless, a web site affiliated with Focus on the Family, originally published in the fall of 2006. A panel from Boundless interviewed Scott Croft and Michael Lawrence, who were at that time affiliated with Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC, the church where Mark Dever serves as senior pastor. At one point in the interview there’s a discussion about whether single Christian men are defrauding single Christian women by not marrying them. As some characters in the old “Tumbleweeds” comic strip would say, “megasigh.” Here are the links in case anyone is brave enough to click on them:

    http://www.boundless.org/relationships/2006/mentor-series-sex-and-the-single-guy-part-1

    http://www.boundless.org/relationships/2006/mentor-series-sex-and-the-single-guy-part-2


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    singleman wrote:

    Last night I re-discovered a two-part series titled “Sex and the Single Guy” that Boundless, a web site affiliated with Focus on the Family, originally published in the fall of 2006. A panel from Boundless interviewed Scott Croft and Michael Lawrence, who were at that time affiliated with Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC, the church where Mark Dever serves as senior pastor. At one point in the interview there’s a discussion about whether single Christian men are defrauding single Christian women by not marrying them. As some characters in the old “Tumbleweeds” comic strip would say, “megasigh.”

    Sigh. I appreciate that you linked to that interview. Still, sigh. Nay, actually, I think only “megasigh” (thanks!) captures the feeling. I certainly had other reasons to dislike FotF before this, but the aforelinked interview only adds to the list.

    So, is it just me, or does this line of thought run rampant in new reformed (neo-calvinisa, or whatever we’re calling it) circles? It frightens me for the future of my church, when the day comes (hopefully not soon) when we’ll need to look for a new minister. The church leans slightly (but not militantly) reformed, and I expect, based on where they’ll look, that there will be plenty of SBC-connected neo-reformed candidates in the pool.


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    @ Josh:

    I can’t help but wonder… why continue with the organization? why not free yourself? why allow misery into your life on principle? What is the principle? How much does sentimentality factor in?

    sorry to machine-gun the questions. I hope it’s not too stark.


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    Bridget wrote:

    @ HoppyTheToad:
    Do you thing that’s because of more education or because these people took time to grow up and experience life outside of their parent’s world before marrying and starting a family? In other words, they developed their own personhood and thought processing before making major life decisions.

    I think the lower dvorce rate comes from several different reasons:

    1. Couples were both have bachelor degrees or above probably have higher incomes and less financial stress. Also, they probably have more intellectually fulfilling jobs, on average, compared to couples where both have boring jobs with long hours, no vacation time, and that may be very physically demanding.

    2. Considering the high rate of people who drop out of college, these couples probably have a higher-than-average ability to delay gratifiation and work hard.

    3. Don’t yell at me, or call me elitist, but the higher education coupled would tend to have higher IQs as well. This seems like it must play at least a small role, even if it just leads to them reading more and therefore being more likely to seek self-help books or professional help when problems arise. Of course, it is probably hard to separate out the education vs IQ effects (if IQ matters) because a higher IQ person is more likely to seek jobs that require going to college.

    4. Intellectual women want partners that are their intellectual equals. It seems that men can be happy with women at a much lower intellectual level than them, but I don’t think women are as likely to be happy with men being at a lower level than them. These intellectual women are much more likely to meet the right person for a happy marriage at college than in high school, simply because college has a higher concentration of intellectual types.

    As far as experiencing life outside of living at home with family (because of going to college) having an effect, the answer is: I don’t know. The median age of first marriage is something like 25 for women and 27 for men. By that point, most high school dropouts and graduates would’ve moved out, even if just for a short while.


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    Thanks for sharing these stories.

    The commentary on young singles not being allowed to leave home is interesting. We know a couple whose 2 oldest daughters were homeschooled and now out of highschool but not doing anything. They are not going to college…which is fine except they don’t really have jobs either and zero interest in long term career. I’m not under the impression that they are disallowed from leaving home but it is very puzzling and I’m not sure what they do all day.

    Meanwhile this couple gushes (ie “praise God”) how “talented” and “gifted” my husband and I are but seem to glaze over the fact that a lot of that is because we have advanced degrees from secular universities. Public university is also how we met each other, and is why we have jobs that allow us to give so much $$$ to the church. We are ambitious but choose to use what we have to serve the church. So I don’t understand this religious concept of denying ambition and education from young adults. I am grateful for what God has given us, but if our parents had raised us like they raise their own children we would not be in the same place in life.


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    Josh wrote:
    I currently live in the tension of worrying how the church will react if they figure out that I’m stuck in this celibacy thing for the long haul. Even more so if they figure out why

    You are in a difficult situation with one side saying that even feeling the attraction is a sin, and the other side telling you to be out and proud of it. Your committment to lifelong celibacy, despite the difficulties, makes many of us feel great respect for you. I hope when life gets you down, you will remember all of us here at TWW that are cheering for you.


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    @ elastigirl: No offense, Josh, but I’ll second elastigirl’s questions/musings.

    Am wondering if you’ve explored mainline Protestant churches? You might find one or another of them to be a better fit for you, in many respects. (I’m a revert to the Lutheran church myself, so please don’t mind my biases!)


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    @Anonymous – I am in the same state of life that you are and am also happy and fulfilled. I flee singles groups, some because they focus on talks about relationships and treat us like we’re still in high school, but also because the folks there seem to have tons of issues and I want to hang around as much as I can with healthy folks. Not to say I avoid all people with issues, because I certainly have them myself; however, I want my inner circle to be growing and encouraging, as I hope I am. I have wanted to married off and on during my life, but right now I’m much happier being independent. I appreciate the freedom and feel respected by my friends and family. Just recently I had to go out of state to take a class, and I went sight-seeing while out there. What a blast I had. I had time to relate to people during my class, but I also could plan and execute my own agenda. Not that I’d want to vacation all the time by myself, but it was eye-opening to me that it can be so fun.


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    Kristin wrote:

    We know a couple whose 2 oldest daughters were homeschooled and now out of highschool but not doing anything. They are not going to college…which is fine except they don’t really have jobs either and zero interest in long term career.

    The female homeschool graduates from my former church by and large aren’t doing anything either. All the males have either gone to college locally or started apprencticeships. I posted above about the one woman who graduated from college and moved away. Another two start nursing school this month. The rest sit at home either writing Christian fiction (one of the few approved paths), getting online college degrees from schools no regular person has heard of, or helping their moms take care of younger siblings.

    One woman is almost 30. By now, she could’ve gone to medical school and been more than halfway through residency! Or she could’ve gotten multiple graduate degrees. Or any number of other things. Instead, in our opinion, she’s wasted a great opportunity to start a diifficult career or even just worked at a grocery store and saved all the money for a house. I just calculated that FT at minimum wage for 11 years is $170k, which is enough for a decent house around here.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    I can’t help but wonder… why continue with the organization? why not free yourself? why allow misery into your life on principle? What is the principle? How much does sentimentality factor in?
    sorry to machine-gun the questions. I hope it’s not too stark.

    Well, I opened myself up for it. 🙂

    Sentimentality, family connections, and most of my friends being from that church certainly play a role. However, the higher principle that keeps me there – for now – is that I’m in a position where I can guide the youth, some of whom are asking questions (if you know what I mean). In a limited way, I can shelter them from some of the crap that the older adults, many of whom are Side X[1], would throw at them. If it keeps them open to the good news, I can stick around to be a resource for the particular youth with “questions.”

    [1] Side X refers to the spectrum of beliefs from “it’s a choice” to “it’s demon possession.” I have found many Side A and Side B people to be gracious in dialog. Side X people, on the other hand, tend to be… well, the less said, the better.


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    numo wrote:

    @ elastigirl: No offense, Josh, but I’ll second elastigirl’s questions/musings.
    Am wondering if you’ve explored mainline Protestant churches? You might find one or another of them to be a better fit for you, in many respects. (I’m a revert to the Lutheran church myself, so please don’t mind my biases!)

    Not yet. My town has a UCC and an ELCA church, so I might have options.

    For those who find those possibilities in conflict with what I said earlier: To each their own, but I find it easier to fill the role of most conservative person in the room than that of “abomination.” For now, I remain planted, for reasons that I just explained in a post that got stuck in moderation, probably because I said the word for “poop” that starts with a “c” (what can I say? sometimes you have to express frustration verbally). 😮


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    HoppyTheToad wrote:

    The female homeschool graduates from my former church by and large aren’t doing anything either. All the males have either gone to college locally or started apprencticeships. I posted above about the one woman who graduated from college and moved away. Another two start nursing school this month. The rest sit at home either writing Christian fiction (one of the few approved paths), getting online college degrees from schools no regular person has heard of, or helping their moms take care of younger siblings.

    There have been reports that the Christian home school movement in my area has shown similar cracks in the veneer of courtship uber alles.


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    Josh wrote:

    Sentimentality, family connections, and most of my friends being from that church certainly play a role. However, the higher principle that keeps me there – for now – is that I’m in a position where I can guide the youth, some of whom are asking questions (if you know what I mean). In a limited way,

    Josh — I admire your decision. And I think anyone who has made the tough decision to be celibate (that goes for *all* singles, divorcees, and widows), deserves respect. It is a counter-culture thing to do and it’s a courageous and noble sacrifice. Having made the same decision as a divorcee, I know it gives hope to other Christians who are struggling.

    Once time, many years ago, a church woman came to my home and snooped around because she didn’t believe I could really live according to my principles. She was amazed. (I’m shocked she admitted it to me!)

    It’s important that people today see us living life fully: enjoying ministry, grabbing life with passion and changing the world.


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    Josh wrote:

    Sigh. I appreciate that you linked to that interview. Still, sigh. Nay, actually, I think only “megasigh” (thanks!) captures the feeling. I certainly had other reasons to dislike FotF before this, but the aforelinked interview only adds to the list.

    So, is it just me, or does this line of thought run rampant in new reformed (neo-calvinisa, or whatever we’re calling it) circles?

    I think Boundless Line appeals to Christians who are terrified about life. They want to follow formulas in hopes of eliminating all risk in life and finding ultimate happiness. But that’s not how God works. He wants us to follow Him, not follow a formula. Sometimes that means hard tasks and deep valleys, and God asking us to rely on him.

    I too have given up on websites like that. I’m sorry too that FotF has followed the money trail rather than following Jesus. I’m on their email list and I’m shocked about the messaging in the behind-the-scenes emails I get, even though they’ve toned it down on all of their websites. Their strange opinions are alive and well.


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    Janey wrote:

    I’m sorry too that FotF has followed the money trail rather than following Jesus. I’m on their email list and I’m shocked about the messaging in the behind-the-scenes emails I get, even though they’ve toned it down on all of their websites.

    “James Dobson — remember him? Used to do a lot in the Christian community until fear of homosexuals drove him over the cliff with his constituency in the car.”
    — someone on Internet Monk a couple years ago


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    HoppyTheToad wrote:

    The female homeschool graduates from my former church by and large aren’t doing anything either. … The rest sit at home either writing Christian fiction (one of the few approved paths)…

    Given that background, the Christian(TM) Fiction in question are probably wish-fulfillment Altar-Call Romances, with or without Amish bonnets. Twilight (sparkle sparkle) started out as the wish-fulfillment fantasies of a bored Mormon housewife (and “not the sort of stuff that usually gets published, if you catch my drift”), so why not the Christianese equivalent?

    (“Christian(TM) Fiction” is a guaranteed rant subject for me.)


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Given that background, the Christian(TM) Fiction in question are probably wish-fulfillment Altar-Call Romances, with or without Amish bonnets.

    Or, with a new twist: Christian Amish Vampire End-Times Tribulation Romance novels.


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    @ Josh:

    I completely respect your decision. It is honorable.


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    @ Josh:

    cr@p isn’t a bad word


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    Josh wrote:

    Or, with a new twist: Christian Amish Vampire End-Times Tribulation Romance novels.

    Is that the Christianese equivalent of “Guaranteed Best-Seller: Vampire Romance set during a Zombie Apocalypse”?


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    Janey wrote:

    Once time, many years ago, a church woman came to my home and snooped around because she didn’t believe I could really live according to my principles. She was amazed. (I’m shocked she admitted it to me!)

    I take it that means she didn’t find any dirt on you for the Church Lady Superiority Dance?


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Is that the Christianese equivalent of “Guaranteed Best-Seller: Vampire Romance set during a Zombie Apocalypse”?

    Zombies! I knew I was forgetting something!

    Janey wrote:

    Once time, many years ago, a church woman came to my home and snooped around because she didn’t believe I could really live according to my principles. She was amazed. (I’m shocked she admitted it to me!)

    That is atrocious! I have no words… (well, other than these)


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    elastigirl wrote:

    cr@p isn’t a bad word

    I certainly have no problems using it regularly! 😀

    That said, it appears that scatological references may trigger moderation. I’m not complaining, just attempting to understand and adapt.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    I take it that means she didn’t find any dirt on you for the Church Lady Superiority Dance?

    HUG — The funny thing was that she wasn’t married, she was a divorcee! She thought it was all a fake.


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    Josh

    There are  number of words in our list that we do not consider “bad words.” In fact, I use the cr*p myself. However, within a given stream, such words might indicate a problem. The list we are using has been quite helpful in cutting down on the language. You will see that we individually approve the comments with supposed bad words. We can do that. Sorry for the inconvenience.


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    Josh wrote:

    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
    Or, with a new twist: Christian Amish Vampire End-Times Tribulation Romance novels.

    Ah yes. Well, I think your suggested genre would be more interesting and maybe less in-your-face preachy than what I imagine these girls are writing.

    There is a Christian theatre group in my area that puts on several plays each year. They are usually pretty good but the last one I saw was so preachy that I thought I’d stab my eyes out if I heard the words “My Lord and Savior Jesus Christ” one more time. I know they mean the plays to be evangelistic, but no unbeliever is going to sit through one that even makes Christians feel extremely annoyed. If I were a drinker, I could have made quite the drinking game out of it. It was so irritating hearing those exact words 20-30 times in a two hour play that I found myself considering not going to any more of them.


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    While we are thinking of ridiculous books:

    I think we need a quiverfull Bill Gothard/ATI Amish-Vampire-Zombie Love Triangle book set during the Great Tribulation with the Pope as the Antichrist. Then maybe he can make grinding your own wheat illegal and limit all families to two children. Women will be required to get graduate degrees to make them into evil feminists and marriage will be illegal before age 35. Spanking kids will be made a jail able offense and all homeschooling and private schooling will be abolished. Kids at school will be served wine at lunch starting at age 12, the food will be filled with GMO ingredients, and they will be vaccinated for STDS each week.

    I predict this book will be a best$eller among patriarchal Christian families because will feature all their worst fears.

    Who wants to write it and become rich? 🙂


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    @ Josh: Honestly… no offense intended, but I doubt anyone can hold out indefinitely against the prevalence of the Side X people.

    For your own sanity, I would strongly suggest looking into other options. You need to take care of yourself 1st in order to be able to help kids. (Something I found out the hard way, per the “take care” in order to be able to give to others, though in my case, not kids, and nothing to do with Side X.)

    Besides all that, being accepted for who you are – as you are – is a very freeing thing. I bet you;d flourish!


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    @ elastigirl: Very much agreed.


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    HoppyTheToad wrote:

    I think we need a quiverfull Bill Gothard/ATI Amish-Vampire-Zombie Love Triangle book set during the Great Tribulation with the Pope as the Antichrist. Then maybe he can make grinding your own wheat illegal and limit all families to two children. Women will be required to get graduate degrees to make them into evil feminists and marriage will be illegal before age 35. Spanking kids will be made a jail able offense and all homeschooling and private schooling will be abolished. Kids at school will be served wine at lunch starting at age 12, the food will be filled with GMO ingredients, and they will be vaccinated for STDS each week.
    I predict this book will be a best$eller among patriarchal Christian families because will feature all their worst fears.

    When will the horror movie adaptation come out? Hey, I’d watch it – though for the same reason I’d watch Troll 2… for great mirth at the unintentional hilarity of worst-in-class serious cinema.

    “What’s the matter? Aren’t you hungry? All we have to do is … heat it up. (my favorite line from Troll 2)

    dee wrote:

    There are number of words in our list that we do not consider “bad words.” In fact, I use the cr*p myself. However, within a given stream, such words might indicate a problem. The list we are using has been quite helpful in cutting down on the language. You will see that we individually approve the comments with supposed bad words. We can do that. Sorry for the inconvenience.

    I can only imagine how hard it must be to administer a blog with a comment section. For the record, I wasn’t inconvenienced, and I’m sure you’d be greatly inconvenienced by spam and inappropriate comments if you didn’t have the comment filtering system! That said, I doubt time-sucking spam patrol is the reason the No-Comment Calvinistas don’t allow comments. 😉


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    Josh wrote:

    When will the horror movie adaptation come out? Hey, I’d watch it – though for the same reason I’d watch Troll 2… for great mirth at the unintentional hilarity of worst-in-class serious cinema.

    Hey, that is an ex€ellent idea! We could enter it in the Vision Forum film festival and win a prize! Then we could proclaim ourselves “award winning film makers” and use our fame to get funding for the sequel!


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    @ Hoppy:

    “all homeschooling…will be abolished”

    Which is funny because there already was an extremely popular book that featured this…as it was one of Voldemort’s first acts after taking over the Ministry of Magic in The Deathly Hallows. And none of them will read that book. Written in Hell and all that.


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    @ numo:

    (…NOW i’ve got the right post)

    he||, even @$$ & @$$hole aren’t bad words anymore, either. I’m personally glad for the relaxation. There’s an honesty to it.

    i’ll never forget the lesson I learned when meeting my English in-laws for the first time — faith in Jesus Christ to the core with integrity, strong character, kindness, etc. coming out. Along with freedom of language. And cigarettes, gin & tonics, wine, & pints of (room temperature) beer going in.

    There are no more sincere, moral God-loving people than they.

    Cultural differences. But showed me how arbitrary the “SINNNNNNNN” label can be.

    As well as the “DEVOUT & SANCTIFIED” label. (imagine what hides behind that one)


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    Ah, Harry Potter. I finished the last book in June. Christians who refuse to read the series because they think it’s evil are missing out. I don’t see how a believer could read all the books without seeing the parallels to Jesus’s life, death, and resurrection. Harry is a better role model than most of these celebrity pastors.


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    @ Hoppy:

    Well, according to Kevin Swanson – the man who brought us “the wombs of women who take the pill are lined with tiny dead babies” – The Scarlet Letter was apparently “forged in Hell” too…and I bet you didn’t know that Hawthorne and Melville were both demon-possessed.

    Maybe Hester Prynne played with Cabbage Patch dolls?

    http://republic-of-gilead.blogspot.com/2013/07/vision-forums-history-of-america-mega_9.html


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    Hester wrote:

    Maybe Hester Prynne played with Cabbage Patch dolls?

    Or played Dee & Dee?
    Or watched My Little Pony?

    P.S. Every time I see a pic of God’s Mouthpiece Kevin Swanson, I can’t help thinking “This guy looks like a high school dork!” Think about it — a high school dork who is now into a position of power and authority (by Divine Right). He’s going to throw his weight around, HARD.


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    elastigirl wrote:

    As well as the “DEVOUT & SANCTIFIED” label. (imagine what hides behind that one)

    Didn’t a certain Rabbi from Nazareth speak about “Whitewashed Tombs, shiny and white on the outside but full of corruption within”?


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    HoppyTheToad wrote:

    Harry is a better role model than most of these celebrity pastors.

    So are the Mane Six of My Little Pony.

    So was Kimba the White Lion when I was a kid.


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    Josh wrote:

    When will the horror movie adaptation come out? Hey, I’d watch it – though for the same reason I’d watch Troll 2… for great mirth at the unintentional hilarity of worst-in-class serious cinema.

    I once watched Troma’s “Nympho Barbarians in Dinosaur Hell” on a WTBS midnghter just to see if it was as bad as the title suggested. It was.

    And once on a B-movie crawl in the Eighties I saw “Terrorvision”. Now THAT one was truly AWFUL. (It’s co-billed “Zone Troopers”, though, is pretty decent if you’re into over-the-top classic pulp.)

    However, “Chopper Chicks in Zombietown” was actually kind of clever.


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    Hi,

    Thank you for just caring about and trying to help the US church singles’ incompatibility problem with church. What a massive, gaping, black hole of insensitivity!

    As a never married 49 year old guy, I wasted my dating years in Albuquerque, where it is nearly impossible to find an urban / educated / fun singles community within the believing world there. So little was available in the form of any singles group in the church that I started one with 3 others. It exploded to 88 people but was shut down within a year. A group of salesmen came in and swept the ladies off of their feet, introducing the group to much partying, hard liquor and even a few pregnancies to boot.

    Now, I’m in Colorado Springs and after being literally rejected, mocked and tossed out of 3 church young adults / singles groups due to my age, despite 2 of the 3 groups claiming to be open to those through 50, I have tried a host of churches. It gets worse, not better.

    What I’ve observed is that a caste system has infiltrated the US church. At the top, cascading geometrically:

    Married with kids
    Remarried with kids
    Married without kids
    Divorced
    Then the most dreaded of all….
    The never married.

    Families and the parents consider themselves superior to those beneath them on this ladder. The root cause:

    The biological family has usurped the family of God.

    I’m leaving the church altogether and have joined some Jewish Republican groups, wine tasting clubs and will have to try to cope without Christianity or religion.

    You’re not in the club if you’re not being hugged by an opposite sex member. This makes Christianity appear so irrelevant, so childish that I don’t know how I will ever respect it again.

    I just wanted to share with you my experience.

    Thanks again.
    Jon

    @ Daisy:


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    Jr.

    Thank you for sharing your story with our readers. There are some here who would fit your demographic: 50s and never married. I care deeply about the problem of singleness and the church. Your heirarchy of acceptance in the church is spot on. Thank you for commenting.


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    @ Jr:

    Jr – I am sorry to hear your story. Nor do I blame you for making what is, at the very least, a constructive decision to cope without Christianity or religion (I’ve no experience of Jewish Republican groups as politics is very different over here; but the wine-tasting sounds promising; so…).

    I am coming increasingly to the conclusion that most localised congregations of the Church (I don’t believe in “churches” [plural]) are not only highly mono-cultural but also have next to no ability to meet real needs. The people who attend them have the same unshakeable, deep-rooted needs as anybody else: the need for security, companionship, purpose and significance, and so on.

    Now, here’s the thing. Most of them have these deep needs amply met by their family life, their job or something else outside of church. This happens so automatically, and without their noticing it, that they take it for granted and actually believe it when they say their true needs are met by “Jesus” for one or two hours a week in the church. The truth is that church doesn’t meet their needs nor in fact does it feed them significantly at all: but because they’re not hungry when they come to church, they don’t notice the fact. But when you come along actually hungry, they look down on you for being “carnal” or “selfish” (I fear you will be able to supply many more examples) because you refuse to be “satisfied with Jesus”. I repeat: they’re not “satisfied with Jesus” either, but they’re oblivious to this.

    My own “story of hunger” is one of unemployment. Most Christians who say their significance comes from being a “precious child of God” have no idea just how much of their significance really comes from their work.


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    why on earth would anyone want to be alone? certainly not me. it is always wonderful to share a life with someone instead of being very much alone which i am sure many of you will certainly agree with me.