EChurch@Wartburg – 6.9.13

Welcome to a Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg

http://www.publicdomainpictures.net/view-image.php?image=576&picture=sunset-in-serengeti

Sunset in Serengeti

Here Is Our Order of Worship

If you are new to EChurch, please click on this link for an explanation​

Prayer to the Holy Spirit Regarding Anxiety

"O Holy Spirit, give me stillness of soul in you.
Calm the turmoil within, with the gentleness of your peace.
Quiet the anxiety within, with a deep trust in you.
Heal the wounds of sin within, with the joy of your forgiveness.
Strengthen the faith within, with the awareness of your presence.
Confirm the hope within, with the knowledge of your strength. 
Give fullness to the love within, with an outpouring of your love.
O Holy Spirit, be to me a source of light, strength and courage
so that I may hear your call ever more clearly
and follow you more generously."
~ William Browning link

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"God of the heights and the depths,
we bring to you
those driven into the desert
those suffering with difficult decisions.
May they choose life.
God of the light and the darkness,
we bring to you
those lost in the midst of drugs or drink,
those dazzled by the use of power.
May they choose life.
God of the wild beast and the ministering angel,
we bring to you
those savaged by others' greed,
those exhausted by caring for others.
May they feel your healing touch.
Christ tempted and triumphant,
we bring ourselves to you,
tired of difficult choices,
anxious about the future,
drained by the loss of a loved one.
May we feel your healing touch.
May we feel your healing touch,
know God's presence in all things
and receive the crown of life
through the Holy Spirit of compassion."
In the name of Jesus
Amen

Kate McIlhagga The Complete Book of Christian Prayer, p.138

Scripture Reading:  Hebrews 12:28 (NASB Bible Gateway)

Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe;

A prayer of Anselm (1033-1109)

O merciful God
Fill our hearts, we pray, with the graces of Your Holy Spirit;
With love, joy, peace patience, gentleness, goodness, faithfulness,humility and self-control.
Teach us to love those who hate us; to pray for those who despitefully use us;
That we may be the children of Your love, our Father,
Who makes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.
In adversity, grant us grace to be patient; in prosperity keep us humble;
May we guard the door of our lips; may we lightly esteem the pleasures of this world,
And thirst after heavenly things;
Through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen"
The Complete Book of Christian Prayer

Benediction:

May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in him,
so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. 

Amen

Romans 15:13 (NIV)

Comments

EChurch@Wartburg – 6.9.13 — 29 Comments

  1. Wade, thank you for sharing some of your family background. It helped me see the origin of your kind, compassionate ministry. God does indeed allow some unfortunate circumstances in our lives that ultimately produce a vessel useful to Him.

    It makes me wonder about the underlying circumstances from the past that produces, a harsh, critical, works-oriented ministry. Perhaps it’s something as simple as something I remember from many years ago on the Phil Donahue show.

    He was interviewing two brothers in their mid-30’s. One was an alcoholic; the other was not. He asked each of them the reason behind their current chosen lifestyle. Each of them gave the same identical reason: “My father was an alcoholic.” 🙂 I never forgot that.

    Deb, if anyone had told me yrs. ago, that one could worship from behind a computer screen, I would never have believed it! But there was indeed a sweet, sweet spirit in this place this morning.

    Thank you all once again for EChurch!

  2. Victorious

    The technology that makes this possible is remarkable. It allowed me to hear Wade’s message live today. Next week’s sermon will be quite profound given what we are currently discussing here at TWW.

  3. Pastor Burleson,
    Good message for all! Grace to others will nip rancor in the bud. When rancor is clipped, it can’t grow into anger and send its tendrils into the dark side where there is only suffering. I believe the Almighty gives each and every one of us immense power to build a better world by what we extend to others.

  4. All this sounds good, but I feel it is almost impossible for me to see the verses mentioned and see them without the fundy filter in my head. I’m getting better at it, but very slowly. It’s just not that easy, Wade. good sermon though.

  5. Wade, I disagree with some of what you said. I’ll explain 🙂

    Yes, grace covers us all. It is glorious. But when it arrives at ongoing deep evil such as child sexual abuser, it doesn’t operate in the same way. For the pedophile, this will never be true: “Live your life with the knowledge that everything you do is acceptable to God….You are acceptable to God so just breathe, live, serve. Be free!”

    It is difficult for us to accept how deeply pedophilia (as well as a few other amoral pathologies such as narcissism and sociopathy) is tied into the personality. We all tend to evade it, religious and non-religious alike. For eg, look at how, over the years, both the Church and the DSM have handled it—pathetic!

    The Holy Spirit is equal to all tasks but the majority of pedophiles get stuck on genuine repentance. They honestly don’t see that they do wrong, even when they say they do. Self-deception is a fundamental aspect of the pathology (far beyond the usual evasions that we all indulge). And for those few who do repent, there is an ongoing tendency to downplay their truly disabling and deeply destructive addiction, which trips them up tout de suite.

    Yes it’s vital to recognize that we are all of equal worth (peers!) before God and were made beautifully by Him/Her. It’s fundamental. And yes grace abounds. But it requires acceptance. Which is always true, of course, yet it almost never happens for the pedophile, narcissist, and sociopath.

    A victim might eventually be ready to offer forgiveness (one aspect of grace) but if the perp hasn’t faced wrongs-done, it can’t be received. Grace offered too early will be grabbed and abused, ignored, scorned.

    The community can be ready to offer various aspects of grace. In fact, it’s the responsibility of the community, rather than the victim, to take the perpetrator on, to confront him with his sins. But they, too, can only stand waiting until he faces wrongs-done. This has nothing to do with whether people in the community think they’re personally sinless. It has to do with the dictates of the law and the requirements of grace. He is under judgment. It is a rotten place to be—we all know that place and empathy flows, but it is what it is. There’s no going around it, only through it, and it is he who must make the move. Again, this is normal procedure. And again, it rarely happens.

    If a pedophile does move forward true repentance, and he “does his time”, grace will still have an unusual appearance. He as well as any of his victims, remain broken. Both need communities to help them shore up their weaknesses. The church group brings grace to both, but grace’s operation is different for each, and both those forms of grace are different than how it looks for more normal believers. And it will happen so seldom for the pedophile that the community will rarely be called to that activity.

    The Christian community vacillates between wanting to condemn (existentially) and wanting to prematurely forgive. It understandably wishes that such wretched evil/destruction with its attendant distress/pain would just go away. But, actually, it is in these very places that we most thoroughly learn the realities of our faith.

  6. Our inability to understand the nature of pedophilia also shows up in our lack of understanding regarding narcissism and sociopathy. They exist together on the extreme end of a continuum. (And they’re different than those who were recipients of abuse growing up to abusers although there is a small overlap.)

    Non-religious humanity doesn’t like to recognize that there is evil that is almost always irreparable. Christians do it a little differently—they don’t like to recognize that there are those among them who say they are Christians (even with tears!) but who will continue to methodically and chronically do great evil.

    But our continued evasions are what has allowed not only pedophiles to become Sunday school teachers and elders but also has allowed narcissists and sociopaths to pastor us. Nationally, our ignorance has allowed our corporations, banks, and gov’t to be taken over.

    Biblically, the metaphor is wolves. What do we do with wolves? It is a human problem and throughout history, we have failed to find good answers.

    Sorry this is so long. I really tried to be succinct.

  7. Victorious, Muff, Scooter’s Mom, et all…

    Thank you, too, for your comments. I read all of them and take them to heart (including Patrice’s). I can’t always respond to each, but want you to know what your write is important. I particularly like the statement “it’s almost impossible to see these verses without the ‘fundy filter’ in my head.”

    I think I address that very problem in next week’s verse “Our God is a consuming fire.”

  8. This is another one I’m going to have to listen to over and over…I have the “fundy filter” in my brain too….I can’t wait to hear next week’s….you are helping me so much, thank you, Pastor Wade! It’s almost too good to be true to believe that I am “accepted” as I am….

  9. Wade,

    Hmmm….because of Patrice’s comment and your response to her, I decided to listen to what you had to say before commenting myself.

    First, I agree that living in the Grace of God is the only place there is freedom and the freedom is astonishing. It does set the old legalistic religious traditions on their ear. And I agree that those whom Christ has set free are free indeed. And I agree that the more you understand it, the more you live it. You can only give what you have.

    However, on the subject of abuse – victims and abusers – even though you started with the caveat that there ate consequences for sin and that your family testified against the abusers in your family, you then, a few minutes later, imply that the way for a wife to change the behavior of her husband is to show him grace. You do understand this sounds a lot like what John Piper teaches about submitting more….?

    So, my question is, what would grace from a victim of child sexual abuse toward her (his) abuser look like, in your mind? I think of 1 Corinthians 5 and Paul’s admonishion to cast the man who was sleeping with his step=mother out of the church and turn him over to Satan. And that wsn’t a case of rape or molestion. What would you advise a victim/survivor of these crimes regarding showing grace to the ones who abused?

  10. @ Patrice:
    Very well said, Patrice. It is of great concern to me to see the lack of true understanding in the Christian community in regards to personality disorders and addictions. I, for one, had a very difficult time accepting that people with personality disorders NEVER get better. My husband is a physician, a past friend and mentor is a renowned psychiatrist, both godly men. Both told me the facts, but I could not believe that God could not or would not heal them. The longer I’ve lived and the more I’ve come into contact with narcissists and sociopaths, the more I have accepted the cold hard science. They never change! If anyone is reading this and would like an easy read, get the book Emotional Vampires (don’t remember the author’s name). It will help you identify the personality disorders.

  11. If God accepts us as we are, and I am trying to process this from the Reformed perspective that I left, Who are the lukewarm He spits out of his mouth? I am so confused these days… Now that my children are older and I have a little more time, I’m trying to square my theology. Unfortunately, my squares are looking more like circles! It seems that it is very easy to take a verse here, or a verse there, and end up with multiple theologies that all sound right!

  12. Jeanette,

    “My question is, what would grace from a victim of child sexual abuse toward her (his) abuser look like, in your mind?”

    My mind is not the issue. If a victim of child abuse grows to adulthood (as my niece has), she will continue to testify to keep her abuser (her father) behind bars and off parole, but she will not allow a root of bitterness to rob her of her joy, happiness, and future — because all those things are Christ’s responsibility, and she wishes that her father could experience the same joy, happiness and future in Christ behind his prison bars.

    Thanks! I appreciate the question.

  13. Lisa,

    I apologize in advance for the long response to your question. I have no idea how a “Reformed” person would answer your question because I do not consider myself “Reformed.” Nevertheless, here goes:

    “I believe one of the most misunderstood passages in Revelation comes from the words of Jesus as He speaks to the church at Laodicea saying, “I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth” (Revelation 3:15-16). Most Christian teachers who speak on this passage compare people being “hot” to being on fire for the things of God, and those who are “cold” to being calloused and cold toward the things of God. Of course, “the things of God” are usually made to mean those matters important to the preacher or teacher. These Christian leaders then conclude with an encouragement that God hates “lukewarm Christians,” and if the listeners won’t get on fire about serving God and getting “sold out” to Him, then they might as well turn their backs on everything associated with God and be “cold” toward spiritual things and go to hell. God likes us either “hot” or “cold,” but He can’t stand lukewarm Christians. The remainder of the teaching time is usually used by the teachers of this text to get the hearers to “recommit,” or “to be more active in the church,” or “to repent of not doing enough for God.”

    That is such an unfortunate interpretation of a beautiful text. The people at Laodicea knew exactly what Jesus was saying to their church. Laodicea was a city situated at the crossroads of the aqueduct system of Rome. Aqueducts were open, above ground troughs that carried the water throughout Asia Minor. Fifteen miles north of Laodicea was the Roman city of Hierapolis where people from all over came for the healing found in the hot water springs of that city. Ten miles east of Laodicea was the Roman city of Colossae where the incredibly cold springs brought refreshment to weary travelers on their way to other regions of the world. Both Hierapolis and Colossae sent their water to Laodicea via aqueduct, but the cold water of Colossae and the hot water of Hierapolis became lukewarm water–good for nothing–upon arrival at Laodicea. With this knowledge, “cold” in the context of 1st Century Rome and Jesus’ letter to Laodicea represents something “good,” not “evil.”

    So what Jesus was saying to the people of Laodecia was simple, yet profound:

    “I want you to be like the “hot” water that comes from the springs at Hierapolis. That is, I want you to be a people who bring healing to those hurting, wounded people that come your way. I also want you to be like the “cold” water that comes from Colossae. Be a people who bring refreshment to those who are tired, weary and full of despair. As it is, you are now neither “hot” nor “cold.” Those who come into your midst find neither healing nor refreshment. I know your works. They are “lukewarm” and good for nothing. As it is, I spit you out of my mouth.
    Might I propose that churches and church leadership that bring neither healing nor refreshment to sinners are “poor,” “blind,” and “naked?” Might it also be true that churches who work hard to build an empire but lose sight of helping those who are spiritually wounded, oppressed and needy are “miserable and wretched?” I personally think this is the proper intepretation of Jesus’ words to the church at Laodicea.

    How do we know if we are a people that bring either healing or refreshment to sinners who come in contact with us? I think Paul Burleson gives us a keystone in his post The Kind of Group To Which I Belong on how to measure our success in this matter.”

  14. Lisa,

    I apologize in advance for the long response to your question. I have no idea how a “Reformed” person would answer your question because I do not consider myself “Reformed.” Nevertheless, here goes:

    “I believe one of the most misunderstood passages in Revelation comes from the words of Jesus as He speaks to the church at Laodicea saying, “I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth” (Revelation 3:15-16). Most Christian teachers who speak on this passage compare people being “hot” to being on fire for the things of God, and those who are “cold” to being calloused and cold toward the things of God. Of course, “the things of God” are usually made to mean those matters important to the preacher or teacher. These Christian leaders then conclude with an encouragement that God hates “lukewarm Christians,” and if the listeners won’t get on fire about serving God and getting “sold out” to Him, then they might as well turn their backs on everything associated with God and be “cold” toward spiritual things and go to hell. God likes us either “hot” or “cold,” but He can’t stand lukewarm Christians. The remainder of the teaching time is usually used by the teachers of this text to get the hearers to “recommit,” or “to be more active in the church,” or “to repent of not doing enough for God.”

    That is such an unfortunate interpretation of a beautiful text. The people at Laodicea knew exactly what Jesus was saying to their church. Laodicea was a city situated at the crossroads of the aqueduct system of Rome. Aqueducts were open, above ground troughs that carried the water throughout Asia Minor. Fifteen miles north of Laodicea was the Roman city of Hierapolis where people from all over came for the healing found in the hot water springs of that city. Ten miles east of Laodicea was the Roman city of Colossae where the incredibly cold springs brought refreshment to weary travelers on their way to other regions of the world. Both Hierapolis and Colossae sent their water to Laodicea via aqueduct, but the cold water of Colossae and the hot water of Hierapolis became lukewarm water–good for nothing–upon arrival at Laodicea. With this knowledge, “cold” in the context of 1st Century Rome and Jesus’ letter to Laodicea represents something “good,” not “evil.”

    So what Jesus was saying to the people of Laodecia was simple, yet profound:

    “I want you to be like the “hot” water that comes from the springs at Hierapolis. That is, I want you to be a people who bring healing to those hurting, wounded people that come your way. I also want you to be like the “cold” water that comes from Colossae. Be a people who bring refreshment to those who are tired, weary and full of despair. As it is, you are now neither “hot” nor “cold.” Those who come into your midst find neither healing nor refreshment. I know your works. They are “lukewarm” and good for nothing. As it is, I spit you out of my mouth.
    Might I propose that churches and church leadership that bring neither healing nor refreshment to sinners are “poor,” “blind,” and “naked?” Might it also be true that churches who work hard to build an empire but lose sight of helping those who are spiritually wounded, oppressed and needy are “miserable and wretched?” I personally think this is the proper intepretation of Jesus’ words to the church at Laodicea.

    How do we know if we are a people that bring either healing or refreshment to sinners who come in contact with us? I think Paul Burleson gives us a keystone in his post The Kind of Group To Which I Belong on how to measure our success in this matter.”

  15. A Firm Foundation: “We Have been Given An Unshakable Kingdom?”

    hmmm….

         Pastor Wade,

    Hey,

    Your comment in your sermon was not lost to me:

    The thought goes: If your life can be shaken, then it is not founded properly upon Christ, and His kingdom.  For that which is founded upon Christ, can not be shaken.

    Yahoo!

    So if my stuff is wobbly, time ta check da foundations?

    Right?

    Your good Wade….Thanx!

    (best advice I’ve heard all year….)

    When I survey ‘thy’ wonders Oh’ Lord….

    Whew!

    Blessings!

    Sopy
    ____
    Inspirational relief:
      Lord, our Lord,  🙂
        how majestic is your name in all the earth!
    You have set your glory
        in the heavens.
      Through the praise of children and infants
        you have established a stronghold against your enemies,
        to silence the foe and the avenger.
      When I consider your heavens,
        the work of your fingers,
    the moon and the stars,
        which you have set in place,
      what is mankind that you are mindful of them,
        human beings that you care for them?
      You have made them a little lower than the angels
        and crowned them with glory and honor.
      You made them rulers over the works of your hands;
        you put everything under thei feet:
      all flocks and herds,
        and the animals of the wild,
      the birds in the sky,
        and the fish in the sea,
        all that swim the paths of the seas.
      Lord, our Lord,
        how majestic is your name in all the earth!

  16. @ Wade Burleson:
    Ah. Well, it’s not about “my pain”. I’m speaking from lessons learned from life experience, followed by research. And I don’t know where else to lay out my concerns.

    I wasn’t poking at you, per se. It was a riff off your lovely idea about grace coming in/out inside/outside and the lovely community that results. I wish it protected from these recurring fiascos.

    Christians, because their faith directs them to face fallenness, have a unique ability to examine/understand the nature of evil and how it works in individual lives as well as, socially, in communities. But instead they appear even more naïve than non-religious humanity (and it’s not because they sin less).

    I am concerned when the ideas of both depravity and repentance are smeared evenly over everyone like frosting on a cake. I am frustrated that there is almost no open discussion about the many faces of evil outside of doctrinal debates. We need to make our doctrine rubber-meets-road.

    You have a wise niece. Her consistent action re parole etc shows that she understands the trouble in the heart/psyche of her abusing father. Most people don’t have the advantage of that understanding and they need it.

    I am concerned that churches will assume that simply instituting policy will resolve the issue. But policy is by nature narrow and can’t deal with fundamentals. If only the broad church community would begin an open conversation, we could help each other learn what your niece knows! And then that knowledge could be coalesced into a regularly circulated class/manual on the many faces of evil. This would give the church solid tools to handle the evil so we can stop falling on our faces: child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, narcissistic leadership.

    We so much need to become wise as serpents while remaining innocent as doves. Instead, we are swallowed by serpents, again and again. We don’t stop to understand the nature of serpents, how they look, how they act. So we don’t see them coming and we get mowed over. Repeatedly.

    That’s all. I just wanted to put my concerns somewhere. It’s ok if you are too busy or don’t agree.

  17. @ Lisa:
    Yeah, I worry about it.

    I think some personality disorders are more responsive to change than others. For eg, I knew a woman with borderline personality disorder and although she struggled throughout her life, she was able to make great headway; her courage and tenacity were impressive.

    But particularly for narcissistic and the anti-social (sociopathic) disorders, yes, research shows that change very rarely occurs. Also for the pedophile. A central element in their pathology is an absence of moral misgivings. For the pedophile and narcissist, it is because they don’t see anything beyond themselves. For the sociopath, it is because he/she doesn’t have a place inside self where ethics usually lie. These are not merely extreme versions of common selfishness or callous disregard but ongoing incapacities to think or function ethically.

    It is as if their minds/souls have a genetic disability. Which a bizarre idea. But as of yet, we don’t have a better way to explain them. And whatever is wrong with them, they leave broad swaths of destruction wherever they go. And they create a conundrum for our general definitions of grace and repentance.

  18. @ Patrice:

    Patrice….yes! Your comments here are spot on.

    I have a narcissitic mother,,,well, both my parents are narcissistic, but with my dad, it is just a generally self-absorbed cluelessness that just doesn’t hear what he doesn’t want to hear. You have to get angry in his face to get him to actually hear what you’re saying. Exhausting.

    My mother, on the other hand, has positioned herself to be a religious guru and puts a great front on for the outside public. But she will lie, even contradict herself in the same sentence. She will do whatever it takes to maintain her position (even if only in her own mind) of being the best at her chosen things. She can be cruel beyond belief when no one is watching. No one, and I mean no one, can be allowed to even appear better at her chosen things (music english, reading, humor…) or she will put you in your place. And no one would believe it.

    It has taken me a long time to realize that I cannot reason with her. She is not normal and there is no reasoning with a mind that does not work rationally. I could tell some hair-raising stories of those occasions, before I realized what an afront it is to nacissits (or even that she was one), when I attempted to suggest to her that she was like the rest of us mere mortals – i.e., that maybe she might benifit from seeing a couselor.

    I don’t know what grace looks like for her. I miss her. I love her. I am sad at her condition. But I cannot be around her. She is toxic to me. So…I have not seen nor spoken to her for 5 years now.

  19. @ Jeannette Altes:
    Yeah, I don’t know what grace looks like for my mother, either. Or my ex. They have become sidelined by life, living out crabbed lives in small corners. How I wish it weren’t so because God made them beautifully but they are wrecks! And it’s such a different kind of life than mine even though I am damaged and also ensconced in a small corner.

    I first realized that God isn’t in a rage over our human fallenness when I was no longer angry about the failures of these people in my life. I am just terribly terribly sad. How we must make God weep sometimes! I want Him/Her to be glad!

    Neither of these people are aggressive types who want to take over groups, to keep the balls spinning around them. I’m not sure what I’d do, if they were. I’d feel responsible, somehow, to let people know about them. I wish there were formal methods to do so, when needed.

  20. @ Patrice:

    Yeah, my mother’s existance is getting bleaker. Most of the family avoids her and her own brother and sister have disowned her. And, because of the messed way the churches we were in and the messed up way my mom presents as a religious guru – and she is never wrong – they have both abondoned their faith. It is sad. The swath of destruction that a narcissist can leave in family is so sad. Our family has scattered to the winds and most of us don’t talk to each other. A few of us who have seen my mother for what she is stay in contact and offer support.

    I am surviving in my own corner,as well. I truly wish that my mother could be happy. But the only time’s I have ever seen a look on her face that seemed to indicate true pleasure, she was either the focused center of attention or she had just one-upped someone and caused emotional harm – she’s the only person I have ever seen who seems to genuinely take pleasure in causing those who she perceives ad challenging her superiority great emotional pain – or worse. SHe called the cops and accused her little sister of threatening her when her sister merely told her she did’t buy her act…..

    I have to hand them to God and let Him handle it. I can’t.

  21. DebbyLynn wrote:

    It’s almost too good to be true to believe that I am “accepted” as I am….

    I agree. Maybe that is the root of my problem. That God could love me just as I am. My head believes it by my heart has a hard time of it. I’m not a lucky person. I never win contests, etc. So getting in on salvation and love this true is really too good to be true.

  22. DebbyLynn and Scooter’s Mom,

    Jesus said, ““Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick; I have come to call not the righteous but sinners.”

    He came specifically for you and me. That, in my opinion, makes us pretty special!!

    Praying that you come to recognize the immense love He has for you…just as you are.

  23. @ Wade Burleson: I decided not to join a church over the interpretation of this passage. The pastor gave the explanation of “God would rather you be cold to Him as opposed to lukewarm.” I asked him, after the service, how he came to that understanding. He said he had heard it somewhere. I gave him the exact explanation that you gave. He looked at me and said he had never, ever heard of such an explanation. I mentioned to him it could be found in boatload of sources. He blew me off. I knew then that he did not do much in depth sermon preparation.

  24. Patrice wrote:

    It is as if their minds/souls have a genetic disability. Which a bizarre idea. But as of yet, we don’t have a better way to explain them.

    Maybe it’s not as bizarre as one might think. We might be a composite of many ancestors in the past, the good, the bad, and the ugly. The ones which we allow to nudge our actions in this life is entirely our own affair. Our choices are our own. Every kindness and every meanness we do sets in motion powerful ripples outward. The future is not set.

  25. @ dee:

    And yet these same guys with their wooden literalism would not allow you to deliver such a beautiful message from the pulpit based solely on the plumbing you’ve received at birth. If it were not so ludicrous it would almost be funny.