It looks like they went through and cleared out all the comments (and likely banned the commenters). O well, just a nice clean space for a new set of commenters to remind them of what turkeys T4G are.

dee wrote:

@ Southwestern Discomfort: Imagine all of the time they will have to spend monitoring all of this? How cumbersome!

One of the things that crumbled the USSR was the bureaucratic overhead of their internal security apparatus. Only Ceauscescu of Romania and the Kim Dynasty of North Korea ever approached the ideal of Monitor Everything, Monitor Everyone, All The Time.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BUSsNWlR01Y

And the Samizdvat (underground self-publishing) still end-ran around GLAVLIT’s government censors.

dee wrote:

Imagine all of the time they will have to spend monitoring all of this? How cumbersome!

Dee — It’s very evident that they cannot keep up with comment moderation. I’ve been doing a non-scientific study on their timing. They are really struggling with the realization that we don’t consider them to be gods. I think they are still in denial though. They don’t realize that the disgust at their cronyism is a grassroots salt-of-the-earth outcry by normal Christians.

Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

And the Samizdvat (underground self-publishing) still end-ran around GLAVLIT’s government censors.

This is the first time in years I saw the word Samizdvat, and the moment I saw it I thought of this joke that used to be spread that way in the USSR: Q: What is the difference between America and Russia? A: In both, there are freedom of speech. But in America, there is freedom even after the speech.

(That’s just my head doing what yours do, sprouting connections with stuff I read decades ago.)

What in the world is going on over at The Gospel Coalition for this to be a featured post?

No Whiners – Kevin DeYoung

Deb wrote:

What in the world is going on over at The Gospel Coalition for this to be a featured post? No Whiners – Kevin DeYoung

Ha, and Taylor posted the identical one. (Corrected per Janey's follow-up comment  :-))

@ Deb:

Ummm . . . pastors want everyone to know their place?!

It’s a good thing because they say so. If one says it, they all say it. (sarcasm)

I think pastors have lost their critical thinking skills. It seems they just mimic each others thoughts.

Deb wrote:

What in the world is going on over at The Gospel Coalition for this to be a featured post?

No Whiners – Kevin DeYoung

Here is a post for them: No dictators. Only the priesthood of believer.

In case A Dittmeier’s survivor comment on DeYoung’s site disappears, here’s the Evernote screenshot.
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s302/sh/879fe30a-172a-4111-995f-95ddfa492d93/aa35d971f50cfee41e08d933cd2ee497

I wondered about the "No Whiners" article too. No matter what happens, I doubt the men of the GOB network could recover their names. That's not how Google searches work. It also exposes their network for what it is.

Justin L. wrote:

I doubt the men of the GOB network could recover their names

What's the GOB network? I ask because, in the UK at least, "gob" is slang for "mouth". As in "gob-job" – a person who talks too much.

It's also (I'm really packing the unrelatedness in here) the subject of one of the cutest English-language statements ever made. Once, when my daughter was about 3 years old, I pretended to feed her with a serving-spoon. She said, very seriously, "that's too big for my little gob, Daddy".

Janey wrote:

In case A Dittmeier’s survivor comment on DeYoung’s site disappears, here’s the Evernote screenshot.
https://www.evernote.com/shard/s302/sh/879fe30a-172a-4111-995f-95ddfa492d93/aa35d971f50cfee41e08d933cd2ee497

Good job, Janey!

@ Nick Bulbeck: Interesting side topic re. slang, as I heard people use “gob” in the same way you did, when I was a child. (In PA.)

I’ve been reading some English memoirs and novels set in the 1880s and am truly surprised at how many colloquial words and expressions (mostly spoken by country people) were – or still are – used in my part of the Eastern Seaboard.

btw, cute story about your daughter! 🙂

@ Nick Bulbeck: Over here, “gob” used to be slang for a sailor (low-ranking man in the US Navy), but I bet that usage has completely disappeared.

@ Nick Bulbeck: Love it!

Was just over at DeYoung’s site. The two posts are still up and it’s after 8:00PM. Maybe he will ignore them totally. I personally think that removing disagreeing posts from readers is, generally speaking, a form of whining. I realize sometimes something truely offensive may need to be removed but not very often.

scotT wrote:

You feel unloved? Well, you don’t understand the gospel.

That seems to be the approach in nouthetic counseling, too.

If you have any sort of mental health disorder, or are suffering from ramifications of childhood abuse or domestic violence, it’s because you “don’t understand the Gospel” (and/or you are holding on to “unconfessed sin”).

Not that it’s just nouthetic counselers who do this.

Virtually any legalistic sort of Christian, Christians who stress right behavior over grace, says or believes this kind of stuff, including fundamentalist Baptists, Word of Faithers, etc.

SNAP also had an awareness event outside Charles Stanley’s church when there was a child molester on his staff. Here is how SNAP was treated by Stanley’s men:

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/opeds/clergy_child_molesters_should_not_be_secret.html

http://www.snapnetwork.org/snap_letters/020607_baptist_atlanta.htm

Daisy wrote:

He answers viewer e-mails on his show, when not sermonizing about common problems we all face. About any time anyone writes in with whatever kind of problem, Stanley will find some way to put the blame on the person who wrote it.
Your husband of 20 years dumped you for another woman? Or God seems distant? Or God doesn’t seem to be listening to your prayers?
IMHO, the correct answer to those sorts of inquiries and problems is, “I’m sorry to hear that. I don’t know why God allowed that to happen.”
But, Stanley more often than not will say blame-type stuff (or put all responsibility back on to the hurting person writing him), such as, “You have to just believe God is there with you,” or “Are you living in sin?,” “Do you have un-forgiveness in your heart?” etc.

According to Stanley in an answer to viewer e-mail, you are living in sin if you don’t tithe: http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/2012/05/charles-stanleys-advice-to-christian.html

@ Victorious:

Um, this is what I get when I click on link:
Oops, we encountered an error.
Page not found
The location you provided is not valid. (/shard/s302/sh/879fe30a-172a-4111-995f-95ddfa492d93/aa35d971f50cfee41e08d933cd2ee497)

citationsquirrel wrote:

Now I remember why I dropped this from my daily blogroll … and why I will do it again permanently. Sorry, but not what I’m looking for. Tim was right.

CitationSquirrel — Where will you go to get information from now on? If you had relied on Tim Challies, you would never have found out about the new May 14 allegations in the Sovereign Grace Ministries child sexual abuse and cover-up lawsuit. Challies didn’t post anything about it until 10 days after the allegations had been made public. He didn’t encourage anyone to read them and to get informed. He didn’t cast his critical reviewer’s eye on the statement issued by Mohler, Dever, and Duncan which any normal person who’d bothered to read the lawsuit knew was clearly incorrect. And Challies said nothing when Mohler, Dever, and Duncan superstitiously changed their statement a week later and left the original date intact.

As Christians we can get our info from a blog with polite well-measured non-snarky comments, but will we get the truth? The Wartburg Watch might be raw and at times have comments that are silly or off-topic. But at least you get information, not a cover up. To people like me, Tim Challies has dropped a couple of notches in my esteem in the past month.

@ Victorious Gail:

Here’s the new link. The first link was a screenshot from early in the day. This shot is from the afternoon where several comments are shown.

https://www.evernote.com/shard/s302/sh/116647e9-fbad-49af-84f8-9a010eb1d244/0151f488f74c74b0bf654534a5a41cac

scotT wrote:

And how does this guy have the time to read & write about so many books that aren’t even slightly related to the biblical text?

First turn off the TV. 🙂

Some folks just plain read a lot. I mean a truck load of books. I’ll not knock anyone for that.

Love this tweet from @FairICBaptist (Pharisee Baptist):
https://twitter.com/fairicbaptist/status/343537710042083328

Daisy wrote:

scotT wrote:

You feel unloved? Well, you don’t understand the gospel.

That seems to be the approach in nouthetic counseling, too.

If you have any sort of mental health disorder, or are suffering from ramifications of childhood abuse or domestic violence, it’s because you “don’t understand the Gospel” (and/or you are holding on to “unconfessed sin”).

Also the approach of the old USSR.

“INCREASE POLITICAL CONSCIOUSNESS! IDEOLOGY! IDEOLOGY! IDEOLOGY! IDEOLOGY! IDEOLOGY!”

And as for “unconfessed sin”, that’s what Enlightened Self-Criticism Before Party Commissars is for. At the show trial.

@ scotT:
Hahaha great comment!

Maybe De Young took CJ’s advice about rest. CJ “rests” so much that’s it’s made him a self proclaimed expert on sports. In fact, it appears he has discipled his son in sports.

http://vimeo.com/m/12723117

scotT wrote:

And while we’re on the subject of DeYoung, what’s up with his book latest book review of the Confederate era/general? Read it closely. Do we see a little Wilson influence? And how does this guy have the time to read & write about so many books that aren’t even slightly related to the biblical text?

Creepy. I had no idea DeYoung was such an expert and apparently a proponent of 19th century pro-slavery rhetoric. Wilson connection? I don’t know about DeYoung, but TGC blogger Thabiti Anyabwile did a very friendly article toward Doug Wilson on Mar 13, 2013. Maybe no one ever told Thabiti about neo-Confederates. That’s shocking.

I was digging in the archives of The Wartburg Watch. Apparently they have discussed Doug Wilson and Neo-Confederates in a couple of posts 7/13/2012 —

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/13/doug-wilson-fashionable-calvinista-has-disturbing-views-on-slavery/

AND 7/16/2012 —

http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/07/16/why-doug-wilson-on-slavery-should-be-like-jimmy-the-greek/

@ Janey:
😀 😉

@ Evie:

Couldn’t watch that 🙁

@ Bridget:

The Vimeo video?

citationsquirrel wrote:

Tim was right.

There used to be a weather guy where I lived as a teen. His name was Tim, and the local commercials had people popping open umbrellas in a rain storm and saying to the camera, “Tim said it would be like this!”

There’s just something about guys named Tim, I guess.

All-knowing and never wrong, not about the weather, not about doctrine, not about blogging. 🙂

dee wrote:

It is interesting that a couple of women have more guts than many of the supposed “real men”.
May the Lord bless you in your life since you will never return to these environs.

Yes Dee and Deb, you put the Evangelical men who “claim” the mantle of leadership to shame.
As squirrels are partial to nuts the citation squirrel should feel at home over at that guys blog who likes to tell everybody how to think biblically about everything under the sun.

TW wrote:

I think you may have misrepresented Thabiti Anyabwile’s views. He actually spoke quite eloquently against Doug Wilson in on-line debate they had. No way did he speak positively about the institution of slavery.

I think that was discussed at this blog a couple of months ago, with links to his posts. I read several of Anywabwile’s posts to Wilson at his blog.

Someone else here said that while Anywabwile posted rebuttals to pro slavery posts, he never the less remains a biblical gender complementarian.

If that is so (and I’m not sure, I don’t remember seeing his views on gender on his blog), I find it disappointing (and hypocritical) that someone who can see how it’s in error to cherry pick or use cultural- or historic- specific passages regarding slavery would turn around and excuse that very behavior and biblical interpretation in regards to gender roles and to limit what women may do in a church setting.

@ Evie:

Yes. The Vimeo.

@ Bridget:
Assuming the link works and you can get to the page but just not play the video, without know more try this: on the desktop view you have the option underneath the video to how it’s viewed by switching between either the HTML5 Player or Flash. Try using the other one instead and see if that helps.

@ Bridget:

Oh ok, now I gotcha!

I posted the following over at DeYoung’s article, don’t know how the whole evernote thing works, so here it is, just in case it is deleted (though I tried not to be overtly critical, just subvertly).

Kevin,

It is true that leaders should not be whiners or complainers, especially as they cannot please everybody. Not all complaints that come from the bottom up are worth getting all worked up over. Leaders should still be sensitive to the needs and feelings of their followers too, however, analyzing the complaints that come up. Is the leader getting multiple complaints of the same type? Also, how serious are the complaints? I would think that if you have multiple people complaining of not being protected from sexual abusers, for example, that the leader has some very serious introspecting to do. Is what they are doing really right? With serious allegations at that level and of that multitude, a leader should feel bad. At the very LEAST, they should realize that they are not protecting those that they are responsible for. That should make any leader think about the kind of job they are doing, and find a way to make it RIGHT, even if that means dealing with negative consequences for themselves, because that is the right, Christian thing to do.

Yes, JoeJoe…great comment!

Good News! – Other Christian Leaders Are Distancing Themselves from the Supporters of Mahaney

According to a tweet from BozTchividjian (Boz T) there has been a line added at the bottom of the May 23 statement supporting C.J. Mahaney by Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, and Justin Taylor, as of 6-10-2013.
https://twitter.com/BozT/status/344117481415274499

The Gospel Coalition wants to make it clear that Don Carson, Kevin DeYoung, and Justin Taylor speak only for themselves. See the new caveat added at the bottom of their May 24 statement that supported their friend C.J. Mahaney in the Sovereign Grace Ministries child sex abuse and cover up lawsuit.

http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/05/24/why-we-have-been-silent-about-the-sgm-lawsuit/

This is completely silly, but it makes as much sense to me as almost all of the teapot tempests over theology — and, of course, over VERY disputable matters. http://funnytweeter.com/i-will-totally-judge-you-based-on-your-choice-of-breakfast-cereal-you-unfrosted-weirdo/

Long time no see, everyone. 🙂 Well I still read almost everything here…

Just popping in to share some of Doug Wilson’s latest nonsense. Apparently if you have food intolerances that cause you uncomfortable symptoms, you are a “Rash on the Body” and “allergic to the Holy Spirit” if you refuse to eat the food others serve.

http://dougwils.com/s26-thinking-straight/c123-creation-and-food/allergic-to-other-people.html

Looking for You wrote:

Long time no see, everyone. Well I still read almost everything here…
Just popping in to share some of Doug Wilson’s latest nonsense. Apparently if you have food intolerances that cause you uncomfortable symptoms, you are a “Rash on the Body” and “allergic to the Holy Spirit” if you refuse to eat the food others serve.
http://dougwils.com/s26-thinking-straight/c123-creation-and-food/allergic-to-other-people.html

I am allergic to Doug Wilson.

There. I said it.

@ Looking for You:

So apparently gluten allergies are not “real” allergies? (Actually, pretty much anything short of an anaphylactic response is not a “real” allergy if we take Wilson’s piece really literally.) I agree that some people do take food stuff too far, but Wilson can’t swing so far in the other direction that he’s trying to order people to eat things against their will. Incidentally, I also think that’s the first Wilson article I’ve ever read that didn’t feature one of his malformed, misbegotten, stupendously unfunny jokes.

Good to hear from you again, BTW.

@ elastigirl:

Elastigirl,
Actually, I have a lot of sympathy with your point of view, particularly as I now live and work very closely with those of many faiths. So you may think that what Roy did was rude. But that isn’t what The Gospel Coalition accused him of and I think it’s a bit of a reach to say that he demonstrated disdain for prayer.

I do know that South Carolinians, for good and ill, do not like “outsiders” coming in and telling them how to manage their business. Also, while I entirely agree that Christians can be very, very obnoxious about their faith; I don’t think this is an example of it. And I’m pretty sure I think that no one should be threatened by the free and non-coercive expression of any faith.

But, as I said, we may civilly disagree about that.

@ elastigirl:

I can’t imagine that happening where I (we) live either. I do have to ask, though, if there would have been an uproar if someone from another religious backgound would have done same thing? If an American Indian, Buddhist, Muslim, or New Ager had shared a prayer from their faith would it make the news? Would it be frowned upon?

I think some Christians are “in your face” in an ugly way far too often, but I’ve also seen the other side of the coin. I’ve been in my son’s kindergarten class where cultures and their religions were discussed and explored, but the name of Jesus was not entertained. Christmas wasn’t onserved because of the link to Christianity, though it’s roots have nothing to do with Christianity. So, Ive seen both extremes of this issue. Neither are pretty.

Bridget,
The reference to “defying legitimate authorities” really got to me, as well. It made me think of “rendering to Caesar…”. I’ve started to get the sense that the TGF, YRR, big-time Southern Baptists, and others really, really love to kiss up to “authority.” That way, when you call the police and tell them that a Baptist mom who cares about abused children, a church member who publicly confronts untruth, a grandmother who wants to see her grandchildren, or a questioning church member who wants an appointment is a threat they will arrest first and ask questions later. And I intend NO disrespect to law enforcement.

@ Phoenix:

Hi, Phoenix.

Thanks for the reply. Some thoughts:

“So you may think that what Roy did was rude. But that isn’t what The Gospel Coalition accused him of and I think it’s a bit of a reach to say that he demonstrated disdain for prayer.”

–Roy is too young to be accused of disdain for prayer. what in the world does that mean, anyway? he was simply making a point, perhaps seizing the limelight for a bit of celebrity. all done with a mixture of intentions, some good, & the immaturity of years and understanding. (not that you disagree with any of this)
++++++++++++++++++

“I do know that South Carolinians, for good and ill, do not like “outsiders” coming in and telling them how to manage their business.”

–interesting. would be interesting to explore historically, socially, etc.
++++++++++++++++++++

“Also, while I entirely agree that Christians can be very, very obnoxious about their faith; I don’t think this is an example of it. And I’m pretty sure I think that no one should be threatened by the free and non-coercive expression of any faith.”

–I agree about free and non-coercive expression of faith– in that I think maturity isn’t reactionary when this happens, and a mature person of faith is not threatened, nor do they consider their faith to be threatened.

In a public school setting, in a landmark event like a graduation which is an expression of melting-pot-community, which is a celebration of what ALL have achieved and supported (students, teachers, administration, curriculum and testing producers, families, friends)… it is a nauseating height of arrogance and disrespect and dishonor to sideline all faith expressions except one.

Graduation is an ENORMOUS acknowledgement and celebration of individual and community achievement. Community = melting pot, or a jigsaw puzzle of many very different pieces that look different and function differently, but which all can fit together to make a beautiful whole. Beautiful in its appearance, but also beautiful in how, after wrestling with frustration, AHHhh the feeling of when the pieces find their fit with each other. A very pleasing, satisfying click. In fact, like a *return* to whole. All the things that make us different giving way to our affinity for being just people.

perhaps maturity = not waiting for the natural disaster to come together as just people with people, supporting and respecting and honoring each other.

Elastigirl,
I think we have much more agreement on this than disagreement; although I think you were still pretty tough on Roy. But, as I said, we can agree to civilly disagree on that. Actually, I think the ideal situation would be that as communities celebrate together or mourn together, the expressions of all faiths are welcome; although there are definitely traditions of which public prayer is not a part. I think of Beth Neilson Chapman’s album, Prism, the Human Family Songbook and I recommend it.

@ Phoenix:

Hi, Phoenix.

I don’t mean to be rough on Roy. He acted on his convictions (as an 18-year old) which is commendable. He is too young to understand the ramifications of only acknowledging one faith tradition in the presence of multiple traditions in a public corporate celebration.

My reaction is not directed at him, but to the issue of pouting and temper tantrums when one’s christianity isn’t allowed to be top dog at an event which nonchristian tax-payers helped to fund. Of course if Roy has been reading here, my explanations don’t completely mitigate any hurt he might be feeling, and I certainly apologize to him if that is the case.

@ Looking for You:
Doug Wilson is funnier than the Onion! He’s now on my list for daily laugh:

“…If you have ever showed up to a dinner party (not a potluck) unannounced with your own food, then you are an enemy of church unity. The Holy Spirit is working to unify the whole body in sweet table fellowship, and you are underfoot.
… If you are allergic to an ever-shifting list of the latest things to be allergic to, then you are actually allergic to charity. This is a bad condition to be in — if you are allergic to charity, then you are actually allergic to other people, church peace, and the Holy Spirit.”

@ elastigirl:

Elastigirl,

Roy, brave young fellow, (bless his heart, as we say in South Carolina) is a recent valedictorian and home town hero finishing what I’m sure was a banner year as a high school senior and looking forward (I am sure.) to an illustrious college career while enjoying SUMMER. I’m sure he’s fine, but your apology was very humble and kind.

I have my “arterial spray” issues too, so no harm, no foul. I enjoyed the discussion.

@ Bridget:

ok — how do you do the emoticons?

Phoenix wrote:

Wouldn’t a gentle pastoral appeal for charity and some practical advice on how to handle this awkward issue have been a lot more helpful?

But he can’t! He is:
Doctrine Mavin
Pride of Snide
Truth Ghoul
Man’s Can-can to Woman’s Cant
Big Bad Doorkeeper of Hell (with big brass keys!)
and
Gawd’s Speshul Profit of General Contempt

You simply cannot require such a creature to deal in charity. It would be insulting!

@ GuyBehindtheCurtain:

Ooooh, thank you for posting that.

I knew how to make the happy face, the sad one, but wanted to make the
‘shocked / surprise/ what the heck?’ one but had no idea how to.

Let me practice…

suprised / what the heck guy (text version 1)
😯

version 2
😯

confused guy:

version 1.
😕

v 2.
😕

exclamation:
❗

One of my all time favorites, roll-eyes:
🙄

LOL
😆

@ Hester:

I have skimmed Wilson’s page over, and he does offer this:

I am not talking about genuine allergies. Everybody should know what those are. You serve your guest ground up peanuts in that Thai dish you’ve been wanting to try out, and forty five minutes later he looks like the Michelin tire boy, and the dinner party concludes late that evening in the ER. That’s an allergy

But I still find a religious leader wanting to pick over people’s eating habits on his blog (or is it a personal type of blog?) very strange.

I have seen this topic crop up in secular advice columns, a la Dear Abby.

@ Patrice:

Tooooooo funny!!! You nailed him.

@ Bridget:

“…TGC… They didn’t even bother to bring up the issue of “loving your neighbor” by treating them the way you would want to be treated.”
+++++++++++

honest question: have they ever?? very curious.

it will cost them their stand on patriarchy if they do (or ever have). if cognitive discopants… dissonance means anything.

elastigirl, cognitive discopants, thanks! 🙂 Authoritaaayh, I think it has been referred to on Spiritual Tyranny.

@ RB:

Even funnier is that you don’t realize the amazing variety of potato salad until you go to a Southern Baptist church dinner, and 20 families show up with 20 different kinds.

I was always used to how my Mom made it as a kid, then one SB church we went to there were so many varities – smoe was chunkier, smoother, with lots of mustard, some with little mustard, some left the potato skins on the chunks of potato, some not.

Some used paprika type stuff on the top, some no.

You’ve never in your life seen so many ways to prepare potato salad as you can at a SB church supper.

SBs also like their food fried.

A lot of SB preachers have weight problems. Southern Baptists like to eat. 🙂

@ Bridget:

Do you mean you’re trying to figure out how to use the eye rolling smiley?

I think it’s the word roll surrounded by a colon.

Let me try again, see if I can make it work:
🙄

If it shows up, it’s the word “roll” with a colon on either side of the word.

Actually, I really miss many things about the South, the joyous, tangible sense of life everywhere, it even seemed to float in the air sometimes, balmy summer evenings so thick, the peace of them could pervade the direst of circumstances, the welcoming light bulbs hung at docks, pink shale, how one could wake up early and watch cottontails slowly move their ears under the dewberry bushes. At first, the movement looked like butterflies moving their wings on some flower. The jeweled tortoises sharing the space as they foraged.

But, I don’t miss copperheads and Copperheads, rattlesnakes, cottonmouths, scorpions, mosquito bites (100 counted on myself one day) chigger bites, Poison Ivy, and the oh so, sometimes, genteel bigotry experienced by some of color or the wrong religion, or no religion. We had a cross burned in our yard when I was young, because my mother wrote a letter of protest against the governor of our state, who had one of those good ol’ boys’ political machines in place. We moved the next year, but it was a tense time. I’m very proud of my mother for that act of courage. I know things are much better in that regard for the large cities in the South because people like her spoke up for those who were being oppressed.

I think this is a time to speak up for women and children, especially in the name of Christ, to oppose anyone who would oppress or abuse them in That Name.

Bridget, almost everything my husband and I eat has garlic and onions. Weird that Southerners wouldn’t add them to those dishes, they include them in so many others.

Dee, as Robert Burns’ poem says, “a man’s a man for all that”, woman in my case 🙂
Yes, I had rocks thrown at me by a few children and spit at by a few adults that year, but although I wouldn’t want to go through it again, it did help teach me to be able to stand alone, it did teach me, again by my mother’s explanation of what and why this had occurred, more about who Jesus Christ really is, and also gained more understanding of human nature, and mercy.

I’m for religious freedom and States’ rights, but the thought of the possibility of the Salem Witch Trials joining forces with the Neo Nazis, just doesn’t sit well with me.