We have received reports that Joshua Harris allegedly told his congregation in today's early service that he was molested as a child. He allegedly strongly requested that any members who have children that have been molested to report this immediately to the police.
We will supplement this as we receive more information.
Too little, too late. it should have been said years and years ago. All those years the church tried to cover up abuse cannot be undone with this.
Yes Val, too little too late. The real heros are the ones who were brainwashed in the cult BY leaders who came later forward. Harris IS a leader who went along with the circus of AoR, protecting Mahaney, etc, etc for a long long time until he chose sides but now even saying they want to cooperate with Mahaney in minstiry? Give me a break. He was hedging his bets all those days he never said a word. After all, ministry is the only way he knows to make a living. He grew up with a family who made a living off the Jesus market. What else does he know how to do in the real world?
Sorry if this is off topic but someone just sent a copied comment from survivors to me about some pastors wife being accused of being mentally ill when she isn’t? Because she thinks some dark things are going on and they had a meeting about it today and only ONE person spoke up for her even though quite a few know she is not mentally ill? Her own husband threw her under the bus?
Folks—-what on earth is going on???? SGM.
That place is a hell hole. Why on earth would they have a “family” meeting about that anyway?
I despise that place. It needs to shut down. It is pure evil.
It is NEVER too late! Good for him.
I’m sorry he was assaulted.
Is this the same Joshua Harris of ‘I Kissed Dating Goodbye’ book fame?
@ Anon 1:
Being mentally ill shouldn’t be a stigma anyhow, even if the wife is mentally ill.
Mental illness can be as benign as depression, or having anxiety attacks regularly. There’s no shame in any of that.
The Bible doesn’t promise perfect physical or mental health to any Christian, despite what the Word of Faith / Prosperity Gospel or anti-secular therapy groups say.
@ Daisy: yes
I just left a big ol’ rant over there on SGMSurvivors. This is all kinds of messed up. I hope Brent takes the story. My head hurts.
Look at mary’s comment at SGMSurvivors: So, I will guess that everyone just believed Josh was telling the truth….just saying.
Anon 1 wrote:
Yes – the pastor is Brian and the wife is Jill. I knew them well when they lived in NC I am heart broken and a little afraid for Jill. She was always sensitive to the Holy Spirit. It has been a while since I talked to her but I still cannot believe she is mentally ill. Being in a SGM church wears on you- it is a spiritual battle. It is like being in a fog when you leave it suddenly lifts a little at a time.
Please pray -my only solace is that they are apparently leaving Cov/Fel but I am afraid they will just go to another SG church.
I posted on survivors after reading about Jill- I am no longer being nice and saying that SGM has “cult tendencies” or is “cult like” -it is a cult.
It is wrong for the church to accuse a pastor’s wife of being mentally ill when she is not. But what if she does have some mental health issues such as depression or anxiety? Mental illnesses are largely caused by biological factors such as faulty brain chemistry. It is not a sin to have mental illness. I feel so sorry for that pastor’s wife. If she was not suffering from anxiety before, she probably has anxiety now.
@ Terri Anne: I am deeply concerned about this report. Mental illness is not a sin. May God be with her. Can you imagine being embarrassed like this in front of a church? We plan to report on this during the week.
Maybe by others coming forward, Josh was able to finally talk about it. I don’t think it’s ever too late.
Terri Anne: This is why I think SGM needs to be bankrupted and shut down. This needs to stop.
What has/is happening with the pastor’s wife being labeled as mentally ill at a church meeting is beyond belief. I can’t believe that an entire group of elders would believe that this is appropriate in any way. There are nine men on staff at that church, but maybe only one rules. That woman does not have a loving husband if he agreed to this abuse.
Dee, I am very glad you are looking into this report because it also concerns me greatly. I hope against hope that it is not true, but strongly suspect that it is true.
I have learned that in many Christian churches, there is a very strong stigma to having any kind of mental health issue no matter how mild. When I told my pastor I have social anxiety and ptsd, he later used my words against me.
: O
…I certainly wasn’t expecting to read this when I came over here.
OMG.
Is this confirmed?
And where did the report come from?
@ Bridget:
I am terribly upset by this!
If you are reading this and a part of any group espousing neo Calvinist ideology, please leave!!!!
Terri Anne wrote:
It is called a “Star Chamber”. The deal was probably some severence package to go along.
Daisy wrote:
If so, that might have bearing on his Kissing Dating Goodbye. And explain the cover-up all these years — a CELEBRITY Pastor/Writer cannot be seen to be anything less than Utter Perfection. A CELEBRITY Pastor is expected to be more Godly than God, and anything less gets pecked to death in the barnyard. So they cover up and try to self-medicate and self-treat with nobody finding out — “If nobody ever knows of my sin, I Am Not Shamed” (with its derivative corollary “And Dead Men Tell No Tales”).
IKDG spawned the Christianese Courtship Movement (AKA Parent-Arranged Marriages Uber Alles) and boosted the Christianese Purity Cult (which firewalled the Virgin-Whore Dichotomy too far for even me). The survivors of this are posting all over the Web on spiritual-abuse blogs. (I wonder if the idea behind IKDG was to make normal male-female interactions so unnatural that Christians would be forced into Patriarch-Arranged Marriages as the only way left. If not, it sure had that result.)
Bridget wrote:
In Soviet Union, dissidents were often labeled “mentally ill” and incarcerated indefinitely. GULAG with different coat of paint. And rationale — anyone who doubts Pure Ideology of The Party MUST be insane.
This seems appears to be more peeling away of the SGM onion layers.
First we have the story of a wife who reports her husband is abusing their children. SGM leaders support the man because he’s the “head” of the household.
Now we have a wife who isn’t in agreement with her husband and again, who is to blame? Does the husband need to change? Oh no it’s the wife’s fault, and her refusing to change and “submit” is not because she’s has any equal rights within the marriage, it’s because she’s mentally ill!
What lengths SGM goes to keep women in a perpetual state of submission in keeping with SGM’s heretic doctrine of the Eternal Subordination of the Son. Jesus is eternally submitted to the Father, so women are eternally submitted to men. It’s the order SGM swears by above everything else, and women and children become the victims. Because it’s “biblical,” don’t ya know!?
Daisy wrote:
It is when:
1) You’re a New Creature in Christ, and the expectation of The Altar Call and Sinner’s Prayer immediately magically fixes anything and everything now and forever.
1a) If Charismatic, substitue Baptism of the Holy Spirit for Altar Call/Sinners’ Prayer.
2) You believe ALL mental illness (or any and all non-approved conforming behavior) is all DEMONS DEMONS DEMONS. Contact Carl Sagan to volunteer as poster child for The Demon-Haunted World.
3) You have More Spiritual/More Godly Than Thou one-upmanship games in play. Chickens peck the defective to death in the barnyard, and lobsters can’t climb out of a bucket because they’re too busy climbing over each others’ bodies.
@ Anon 1:
Every day it gets easier and easier for people to declare the theology evil.
As John Immel said, find the assumptions an you will find the cause. If the fall out is evil, so are the assumptions.
I absolutely hate to read all of these comments being so negative against Josh Harris… not because I’m a Josh Harris fan, but because (assuming this is an accurate report to start with) he had the guts to stand in the pulpit and say he was abused. The vulnerability that takes is unbearable and the fear and anxiety that accompany that experience is just unreal (this is speaking from personal experience, and I am a WOMAN–I’ve heard it’s much, much worse for a man.) This took a great deal of courage, and quite frankly, I think this is what the church needs: ugly honesty, especially related to sexual abuse. I commend Josh Harris for his bravery.
I'm convinced guys like DeYoung, Mohler, Dever, Duncan, Stinson, Piper are all protecting and supporting Mahaney is for one reason: they're all in agreement on the issue that Women should submit to men, and that since they know CJ has been an outspoken proponent of "Biblical" Manhood and Womanhood, his undoing could call into question the legitimacy of their pet position. And heaven forbid that should happen. So, no, they must stand together in solidarity because they probably think their buddy Mahaney is under fire from the evil forces of feminism, and that's really what this is all about!
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: Yes, I've heard that his "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" book created a lot of problems for singles in the church, mainly to the point where singles got the idea from his book (and other teachings in Christianity) don't hang out with opposite gender singles – so nobody gets married. Then Al Mohler and others get all angry that singles aren't married yet, staying single for years and years – when they're the ones partly creating the problem to start with.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Oh yes, I realize those stereotypes and false information about mental illness is out there, I was stating it like it is: there’s no disgrace in having a mental health problem, any more than there would be having a headache, or broken arm.
As I stated above, no place does the Bible promise great health to everyone.
@ Daisy: It gets worse.
If you read the survivor blogs, you'll see that this even got warped into not being allowed to like/be attracted to someone (as a teen or slightly older) because he/she might be "another woman's future husband" (or future wife) and therefore was/is off limits in the here and now. Where they EVER got that, I don't know – and don't really want to know.
This isn't a shepherding thing (i.e., not something that came from the shepherding movement; it's some ultra-weird perversion of normal sexuality and normal views of relationships between the sexes/genders.
@ Daisy: SGM has historically been incredibly opposed to actual mental health counseling and medical intervention; the top people have disparaged and minimized the very real needs and concerns of those who have problems that need treatment.
Of course, that plays right into what’s (allegedly) been going on – after all, if someone goes out there and sees a legit therapist and starts talking, a whole of ugliness is likely to be brought into the light of day. the consequences for those who have harmed others are obvious…
numo wrote:
Numo — did you read paragraph #147 of the lawsuit where [quote] the “Defendants arranged for the pedophile to attend Christian counseling on sexual deviance. In March 2001, after that counseling concluded, the Defendants declared the father “healed” and permitted him to participate in a “church plant” to form a new church in Ashburn Virginia.”
It must not have worked very well because according to paragraph #148, the same Defendant was caught in sexual deviance yet again the same month.
This is yet another good reason to never attend a nouthetic church. If they had just done a little research, they would have known that pedophilia is nearly impossible to “cure.” But no, the church leaders knew better! (/sarcasm/)
numo wrote:
THAT sounds exactly like Scientology.
Possibly for the same reason: Bad-mouthing the competition.
numo wrote:
1) I have long maintained that Christians are just as screwed-up sexually as everyone else, just in a different (often directily opposite) direction.
2) As I suggested above, this DOES have the side effect of leaving Patriarch-Arranged Marriages as the ONLY remaining way for Christians to Get Married (avoiding being punished by God for being single).
Evie wrote:
It's a hierarchy of boots stamping on faces, all the way from top to bottom. And the only way to NOT get stamped on is to claw your way up to where YOU'RE the one wearing the boots and stamping on all the other faces. Power Struggle Without End, Amen.
@ Janey: Oh, I’m all too aware (nouthetic) and have been told personally that anxiety and depression are the result of my own sinful actions.
It’s an *awfully* cold response to another human’s suffering.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy: I think it’s a characteristic shared by many, many cults.
@ dee:
How cruel… My heart breaks…
@ Janey:
Yes- Nouthetic counsling is damaging and awful. I will never, ever subject myself or anyone I love to it (and in fact, not even anyone I hate).
Quick question for you folks… I stumbled across a blog that seemed to be written by a strong Christian sister. Then I discovered some info on the same church she was making out to be the best thing since sliced bread: Covenant Life Church. I need to do some more reading on this website in the morning, but was wondering how someone within the church could think it was so amazing, when it appears to have such a shady history. Can it really be that bad?
Why are men's sins not considered sins that could be damning? If a woman committed this sin, then she would be considered not one of the elect. Hmmm…
The message from today’s sermon at CLC is online. Here are two links for viewing or directly downloading the MP3:
Watch it: http://www.covlife.org/resources/3967153-How_the_Story_Ends
Download the MP3: http://www.covlifemedia.org/dl_dialog.php?filename=v4.0/2013_05_19–How_the_Story_Ends–Joshua_Harris.mp3
..
I encourage everyone to listen to it, Josh starts talking about being a victim of sexual abuse starting at the 24:00 mark.
Here are two important quotes that he goes into right afterwards:
[25:17] “If you have been a victim of sexual abuse or physical abuse, you need to hear this from me / you need to hear this from God / you need to believe this: that what happened to you is not your fault. It is not your fault. You are not the one to blame.”
[25:46] “And if you have been abused or you are being abused, I want to plead with you, please go to the police. Please get help. If you are afraid to go to the police, go to a friend, ask them to go with you, to make that phone call. There is help for you.”
@ Rashel:
I agree. This revelation does not give him a pass on any part he played in enabling or covering up the abuse of others. But that and the revelation that he was molested are -or should be – separate issues. It takes ENORMOUS amounts of courage to tell anyone about childhood sexual abuse. To stand up publicly and do so is remarkable and on this, my heart is for Mr. Harris.
He’s got a very emotionaly tough road ahead of him – not the least of which will be dealing with any role he played in the cover up of the abuse of children within SGM. The dominos are falling and it will be interesting to find out – if he discloses it – when and how his abuse occurred, since – if I remember correctly – he ‘grew up’ within SGM.
Just listened to that 24-min mark… Good for Josh Harris.
@ Jeanette or anybody who knows:
A question about Harris’ timeline: his dad’s church is (was? I thought it recently closed) in OR but I know HSLDA and other things Harrises are involved with are in VA/DC. So did he “grow up” in SGM because of that frequent contact point or do I not know something?
@ numo:
Hmm…it seems to me it is an extreme extrapolation of the hyper-Calvinist (Calvinista) ideology. Everything is predestined. So, until God shows you who your preordained mate is, everyone else is off limits….because they are someone else’s preordained mate. And to be fair, this ideological nonsense (I don’t want to grace it with the term ‘theology’) is not limited to the Calvinistas. I’ve seen it in Pentecostalism, too.
@ Jeannette Altes:
@ Rashel:
I agree with you both.
Jeannette – Josh didn’t grow up in SGM, but it was a similar, closed isolated, church environment.
Josh grew up in Gresham, OR. He was not part of SGM at all as a child. He was part of his dad’s churches, Household of Faith (family integrated churches), based in Portland area. There are a number of them in the Portland area and they extend into WA and now several other states. Gregg’s church, the original one, folded a while back – I’m thinking around January. There is some background stuff with the closing, but my connections tell me that it was dwindling in numbers. C.J. brought Josh out and mentored him for a few yrs before passing the baton. Josh was already very well known with his New Attitude conferences, magazine, books, speaking abilities, etc.
@ Jeannette Altes: You know that SGM was a charismatic group for a long time, no?
That more than likely accounts for it, but I do not believe the specific point I mentioned is necessarily an outgrowth of the shepherding movement (of which SGM, in its previous incarnations, took part) per se.
I *do* think these kinds of ideas ferment (in a bad way!) in many different kinds of churches, and with charismatics (speaking from personal experience here!), there was an amalgamation of stuff from *all over* the place, back in the 70s. You know: Gothard + shepherding + Latter Rain + who knows what all else?
It all got weird very, very fast. (As in abusive.)
@ Jeannette Altes:
Also, I do know for a fact that charismatics (during the late 60s to mid 70s charismatic renewal period) and Pentecostals (very much including AoG) folks were associating closely with one another – in the D.C. area. (I even attended a small Catholic charismatic prayer meeting back in the late 90s where every single participant prayed aloud like they had been born and raised in the AoG!)
So there was more than enough "mixing" for ideas and practices to cross from one tradition to others… and multiple opportunities.
Josh became the senior pastor at CLC, CJ’s replacement, in 2004. He was at CLC a handful of years before that mentoring under CJ.
All of the atrocities at CLC mentioned in the second amended lawsuit happened decades before Josh was a pastor at CLC. He definitely inherited a big mess with lots of hidden history of problems and coverups. I don’t believe Josh himself was privy to all of the details of the victims from the 1980’s.
Josh made a commitment today (unfortunately, this was not part of the sermon/message that was recorded): his commitment was even with the latest news of the judge throwing out the civil suit because of statute of limitations, the CLC pastors are committed to finding the truth of these allegations .. both of the newly-accused men in the church and any coverups made by any CLC pastor.
The CFC Pastors Have Broken the Law and Acted Like Sh—s
It is an illegal violation of HIPPA guidelines to talk about someone’s confidential health information publicly. If this woman is mentally ill she’s certainly in no condition to consent to having her health issues blabbed about either. She may also have grounds to file a civil lawsuit against the miserable excuses for human beings running CFC. I hope this woman files a complaint with HIPPA http://www.hhs.gov/ocr/privacy/hipaa/complaints/
and sues the pants off those CFC “Pastors.”
I think Josh Harris Needs To Take Action to Prevent Abuse- The Time For Talking is Over
The problem with Joshua Harris’s supposed revelation and apparent new-found sympathy for victims is that he and his fellow CLC Pastors have told so many lies and hurt so many victims with their indifference (at best), that it’s hard for me to even express interest in what they’re saying much less believe they’ve had a big change of heart since Susan Burke announced she’s not giving up her case against them. Ever.
I don’t know if Josh Harris’s story is true or not but I know that if he was serious about stopping sexual abuse at the big Church he runs he would do the following things immediately:
1) Fire Grant Layman for (Allegedly -ed notation) not reporting allegations of sexual abuse to the police immediately;
2) Withdraw CLC’s “the First Amendment gives pastors the right to cover up sexual abuse” legal argument;
3) Close down his nursery until at least the criminal (investigation-ed. note) against CLC are resolved;
4) Put together and implement a serous public policy for reporting and responsibly handling sexual abuse allegations at CLC.
(Deleted part of comment-ed note)
CLC needs a bona-fide adult who can make hard decisions at the helm right now, not a charming man-child who just gives good speeches at suspiciously opportune times.
BTW – Household of Faith would consider themselves Reformed Charismatic, too. So, Josh probably felt right at home at SGM. Additionally, these churches are predominantly homeschoolers, lots of full-quiver families, and definitely complementarian. They have “heads of household” meetings where no ladies allowed. HOFCC has had at least one sex abuse scandal. You may remember, Dee covered a sex abuse story last summer with a Household of Faith church here: http://goo.gl/5m4Oy
(my family attended a HOFCC church plant for 6 months, so I know some of these people. My husband attended Gregg Harris’ weekly mens leadership meetings)
@ numo: That's certainly true.
There was a lot of 'cross-pollination' going on. And yes, much of it went very weird very quickly and denoms separated and pointed fingers.
Personally, I think the problem is a more fundamental one than a simple theological debate. I do think it is more ideological with the whole structure of the modern 'church' at the crux – power for a few – everyone else follow…but that is a whole other discussion.
@ Julie Anne:
That’s what I thought. Glad I hadn’t missed anything!
@ Jeannette Altes: I don’t think the prevalence of books by people like Watchman nee helped at all.
If anything, i do think some of the charismatic groups were trying to “reinvent” church, as the institutional church was deemed to be “dead.” In not paying attention to/learning from past mistakes, the whole movement became easy pickings for people with an authoritarian bent. (Been there, done that, in terms of feeling like such people were attempting to control my life.)
“It is an illegal violation of HIPPA guidelines to talk about someone’s confidential health information publicly.”
Not for a church, Sue. This is something that folks need to come to grips with. Churches can get by with quite a bit that would shock you. The government views it as an voluntary association and would be intruding on religious beliefs.
Julie Anne wrote:
Of course we know there was no one seasoned enough to take over for CJ. He had to find someone young he thought he could control. Didn’t Josh even live with them for a while? Talk about being isolated with no real world experience. Josh has always been in the bubble…all his life.
@ numo:
Yes. My mother had all of Nee’s books. All the ‘in’ people did…
You’re right, they were easy pickings for those looking for narcissistic supply….
@ Anon 1:
Yes, that’s what I’ve read.
Kinda sad about the comments slamming on Harris. Does he have some strange theological views? Yeah, I think so. Was he part of a system that created and perpetuated problems? Yeah. However, to say that his (alleged) admittance of being abused as well as encouraging victims to go to law enforcement is neither too little or too late is sorta misplaced anger.
Think about it. This guy was brought up in this system, and was groomed from an early age to not question the path that he was given. If abuse happened, does anyone think he was in an environment that would have supported him coming forward?
Childhood sexual abuse has a long reaching impact well into adulthood. Some children heavily bond with the perpetrator, as well as seek approval from the system that contributed to the circumstances of them being abused. “Acceptance” becomes a means of coping. It’s done out of fear and to minimized reprisals.
Look up traumatic bonding. It’s a variation of Stockholm syndrome. I’m not saying that this is the case. It’s just some interesting food for thought.
Harris has contributed to some seriously messed up theology. However, I can’t be cynical about his motives for (allegedly) coming out as an abuse victim and I can’t be cynical about his not having said anything all these years. Perhaps he just found the courage right now.
I don’t doubt that if he did say such things happened to him, that they are true. I mean what does he have to gain from making false statements?
Maybe Josh never got his day in court over his abuse. Psychologically that could either cause him to treat testimonies of abuse the same way his was treated OR it could cause him to react with the same rage that others of us with testimonies are accused by SGM of doing as in we are just wounded people who never got our day in court so we over react to these stories in order to gain personal satisfaction.
But whatever, I can separate the part of him that is human like the rest of us from the part that is his career which he needs to handle just like Sue said @ Sue:and I hope he gets the healing he needs. How do I know he hasn’t yet? Because of how he has handled everything since the allegations began, it makes sense now.
Edit
@ Dis:
If you’re referring to my comment, it wasn’t his confession I was commenting on, but his appeal to the congregation to call the police that struck me as coincidental (and way past due and too late for many, many victims).
The timing of his confession my be staged, or not. I really don’t have a horse in the SGM race, but from all I’ve read about the plaintiffs, for years and years it was “don’t tell the police” sort of nonsense that flowed from the pulpit, and many children and families were hurt and destroyed by that teaching. Now, after getting off by a hair (and isn’t it criminal to not report suspected child abuse? and aren’t there no statutes of limitations on criminal charges?), suddenly the secular legal teaching is pouring forth from the pulpit.
You are right, I may be cynical. I am not a part of that denomination, never have been, and maybe the church has been on the right track for a long while now. But, to me, the timing seemed curious. No more first (or is it second) amendment appeals to handle things in-house? Sudden cooperation with secular authorities? That is what I mean when I say too little, too late.
I don’t know Josh Harris, and it is very sad if he was a victim. But aren’t all these pastors extraordinarily smooth operators? CJ never bats an eye. He hand-picked Josh. Josh has been in the public eye for quite some time. The whole timing is odd, but I may be reading too much into his confession today. What I am not convinced of is this sudden change of tact to magically conform to secular authorities. Did he apologize for the years of teaching the congregants not to contact the police? Did he mention it? Say they were wrong before and trying to fix it all now? Or do they just preach it this way now and hope no one will notice the change in method? I would love to be proven wrong on this.
The amt of gossip, slander, and speculation on this board is overwhelming. Everyone is worried about the speck in SGM, Harris or another’s, but they can’t take the plank out of their own.
The amt of hatred expressed is amazing.
Josh needs to identify the person who sexually abused him as a child, if he can remember who it was. Pedophiles usually have multiple victims, and the person in question could still be abusing children if he is still alive.
Robin wrote:
What exactly is this supposed to mean?
@ Hester: Yes-It is confirmed. See SGM Survivors. CLC is a big church and people talk about their sermons.
@ Debbie Kaufman: I do not know the back story to this poor woman and cannot speak to her mental health one way or the other. But this much can say. If she is struggling, to allegedly announce this in front of a church as her husband steps down is beyond imagining.
@ Rashel: This whole thing is rather sad and rather bizarre. I can only hope that his revelation will change business as usual.
I’ve been having a back and forth with somebody defending Covenant Life Church on her blog. I had not been familiar with CLC/SGM before researching the abuse scandal, but am curious about some of the shocking things she writes… does CLC spoon-feed answers to their members or is she taking this all to the extreme??
http://rae-raeswritings.blogspot.com/2013/05/writing-to-heal-spiritually.html
Two examples of what I mean:
1. She says she has been “traumatized” by the fact that she didn’t go to CLC earlier than she did but was instead stuck at a different church she didn’t care for. Then equates her “victimhood” with that of sex abuse victims and argues that there’s no such thing as a perfect institution and that its unfair to point fingers at CLC.
2. I asked if she’d actually read any of the reports about her church and this was her response: “They (CLC) update us with what little information they can share with us and I pay attention to that, and then I go and live my life. I don’t put much stock in media reports as they are prone to misconstrue and twist things to their own liking. In that way, I stay as informed as I care to be.” Really?! Does CLC actually teach its members to only listen to them or is this gal a special case?
Cowboy wrote:
That is the purpose of this blog-to look at abuse in churches. I would suggest that you take a look at “The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse” which deals with how to silence and control members of churches.
Scripture also points to religious leaders who look good on the outside and not so good on the inside-just like the rest of us. There are strong Christian sisters on both sides of this issue. However, some are willing to do what their “authority” figure tells them and not investigate the serious concerns that have been raised for years about SGM churches.
We have not been members of SGM. We started reading about 5 years ago at SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge and became deeply concerned, particularly because so many leaders touted the SGM model. I would suggest that you do some reading about this issue. Look at the lawsuit and think. Can this many people be so wrong?
@ It’s just the beginning: Thank you for including this link.
@ Hester:here is a link to one of the stories that we wrote about Household of Faith churches that were overseen by Greg Harris. You might seem some common elements in how a pedophile situation was dealt with in that group of churches.
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2012/06/28/pedophilia-and-deception-at-a-household-of-faith-community-church/
Anon 1 wrote:
You are correct. That is why i recommend that people think long and hard before signing a membership covenant.
Dis wrote:
I agree. Perhaps he did find the courage to speak at this time. In fact, this could have been bubbling under the surface and contributed to the break from SGM.
The proof will be in the future actions of this church towards those who report abuse.
Anon 1 wrote:
Or HUMBLE enough.
Cowboy wrote:
There have been reports that they tell people not to read the blogs, etc. They believe that the pastors will pass on the correct information and the the rest is pure speculation.
That is diametrically opposed to my philosophy which is to read all sorts of stuff and process it for myself. Naiveté is dangerous.
One other point is worth making. In spite of claims to the contrary, pastors and elders are capable of grievous sin. They are just like the rest of us poor slugs. Everything they say or do should come under careful scrutiny and then assessed in light of Scripture.
My motto: Think for yourselves under the guidance of Scripture and the Spirit.
Well I applaud Josh Harris for being open about abuse he endured. I pray it helps the pursuit of justice in SGM and encourages abused individuals to seek help.
Dis wrote:
And (as this blog has pointed out time and time again) the sheer level of dishonesty, posing, and spin spin spin within SGM, CLC, and other churches and CELEBRITY pastors associated with Harris has shall we say tainted his credibility. With all the spin and coverup and spin coming out of this mess, is Harris’s announcement (and its timing) just more spin spin spin spin spin? “LOOK OVER THERE! NOT HERE!”
Rezoteht wrote:
I imagine it’s startling to read the anger and pain that results from abuse when you’ve been in a system that calls both sin.
You also, then, wouldn’t know that hurt people cast about for answers and reasons and it takes a while to sort it out.
@ Monica: I do not mean to speak for her but i think I can add some insight. This weekend, i stated categorically on a talk show that I am not opposed to Calvinist/Reformed theology. That is why we invented a term “Calvinista” for those in the Reformed tradition that carry things to what we consider to be the extreme. I am currently thinking up a name for the nonReformed Southern Baptists who do the same.
There can include, but are not limited to:
Hyperauthoritarian
An overemphasis on the sin of the congregant to the exclusion of the celebration of grace and love.
An overempahsis on gender role which may include such things as women not being even allowed to read Scripture out loud in church.
Kristin wrote:
Ditto. The dam may be cracking.
Julie Anne wrote:
i.e. Just another Male Supremacist Cult, keeping its Handmaids busy Outbreeding the Heathen.
Lol, Rezoteht!
The “speck” in SGM you speak of includes sexual abuse, spiritual abuse on many who have left. Coverups, blackmailing, the list goes on. But my “plank” is that I read a blog, and occasionally post my opinion which by the way is my first amendment right. Ha, ha you gave me a good chuckle this morning.
Don’t know if you are a part of the SGM cult but I was for about 2 decades. The damage done by this cult in my life, my family’s and many others I have known in that time goes way beyond what you want to think. If you are still in I understand why you cannot see it, I was there too, asleep, believing the best of leaders who didn’t deserve our trust while wonderful folks got slandered, thrown under the bus and shunned. I believed everything the leaders told me and distrusted the wounded who left. It was devastating to realize it and something I am deeply ashamed of. Thankfully those who left whom I still know have extended much grace and forgiveness and are helping me come to terms with the fact that I was in a cult and how to recover from the spiritual abuse.
Rezoteht wrote:
doubleplusgoodthink, SGM comrade rezoteht!
doubleplusgood doubleplusduckspeak!
numo wrote:
For what it’s worth, Watchman Nee had a LOT of fanboys in the Seventies. His books were often treated as the 68th book of the Bible (Hal Lindsay’s Late Great Planet Earth was the 67th), as Double Inspired as a King Jimmy.
As were the Mormons, the Seventh Day Adventists, the Jehovah’s Witnesses, and all the Reverend Apostle Joe Soaps’ One True Remnant Amid The Apostasy (a whole DOZEN strong!)
numo wrote:
Add Hal Lindsay, The Rapture (any minute now… any minute now… any minute now…), and and you have “Koinonia House Christian Fellowship” which sucked me in back in the Seventies. Or almost sucked me in; I bailed in the middle of the love-bombing to move into one of their “Fellowships” (closed compounds) uncontaminated by the World, the Flesh, and the Heathen.
I wasn’t sucked in all the way, and the damage is still there.
@ Anon 1:
Anon 1:
THanks. HIPPA actually does applu to Pastors. The Lutherans have some great information about what can and can’t be said about someone’s medical history without their express consent.
http://www.lutheranservices.org/pastoral_care_and_hipaa
@ Jeannette Altes: We were young and naive, for the most part.
@ dee: Thanks, Dee. I know that Churches get away with things secular organizations do not. If the owners of a day care or a non-religious school acted the way Harris and the other CLC pastors are acting, they'd be arrested and their organizations would be shut down immediately. But because CLC operates under a religious umbrella, it can flatly say it's endangering children by not following mandatory reporting requirements and no one can do anything about it in the short-term. However, HIPPA truly does apply to Pastors and a criminal complaint supersedes any kind of rinky-dink membership agreement, I believe.
@ dee:
Thanks for replying. I understand about the Calvinista stuff (I’ve been reading here for a looong time). All the things you listed I would not support. Abuse angers me.
I understood the quote “If you are reading this and a part of any group espousing neo Calvinist ideology, please leave!!!!” to mean “… please leave this site!!!” It’s just occurred to me as I’m typing that perhaps it was meant to say “please leave any such group”… Was that it? I guess I was in a rather irritated frame of mind at the moment I read it, and that’s how it came across to me. Sorry if I got it wrong. I just saw no reason why even someone fully convinced of all the stuff you described should be told adamantly to leave…
@ Sue: Good catch.
In fact, the church where I grew up (ELCA) has not been able to list anything about members being in the hospital (in bulletin) ever since HIPPA went into effect. (Am assuming this is the case across the boards, with all churches, so that they are in compliance with the law.)
Churches *are* subject to laws, no question.
@ Val:
Val –
In all honesty, I don’t know if Josh has ever told people not to contact police. Most, if not all, of the cases we have heard about so far happened well before Josh Harris had any control over what went on at CLC. It is also quite possible that Josh was expected to forgive his molester and that the incident was not reported. He may have grown up in this type of thinking and culture. Even if he was aware of issues in CLC’s past, be may have thought it was handled “well” if it was the same way his situation was handled. We don’t really know all the details of any if this. We do know he broke with CJ. He took CLC out of SGM. He has shared intimate details of his life. He has urged people to contact the police if they are aware of sexual abuse. There are things that he hasn’t handled well. He has admitted to that. There is much to yet be seen about how CLC moves forward. From a birds-eye perspective, Josh has done more to bring freedom and openness to that church than anyone. He stood up to wrong – even as most of the Calvinista realm supported/supports CJ, invites CJ, defends CJ, and I haven’t heard of any support from those guys for CLC and the elders there. I’m not saying that there isn’t still a long way to go for CLC, but there has been movement.
Think about your own life; change of thinking and patterns of false belief don’t usually change in a blink, in a night, in a week, or a month. It takes time to sort through each major belief that drives the actions. It takes most abuse victims years, even decades, to sort, heal, change. As some have said, you may never shed “all” the pain and baggage that comes with abuse. (I secretly hope this isn’t so because I really want people to be free from this horror).
@ numo:
Numo –
Do you think they can give information if they have permission from the member?
Dee — Thanks for the reminder: “Josh Harris was a victim. It has probably affected his whole life. Remember that TWW stands with victims.”
I am truly grieved for Josh Harris and for his family. This story is so very sad. I’m proud of him for speaking up to give voice to victims of child sexual abuse. I hope “Christian Post,” “World Magazine,” and “Christianity Today,” pick up on the story and offer hope to other survivors.
In 2011, Josh McDowell came forward and talked about being sexually molested repeatedly by a farmhand on his father’s ranch. It was reported by “Christian Post” on Oct 5, 2011: http://www.christianpost.com/news/josh-mcdowell-undaunted-to-bring-sexual-abuse-to-forefront-57364/
I applaud Josh Harris’s and Josh McDowell’s courage and transparency. They really help others as they struggle to heal and make sense of it before God.
@ Bridget: I don’t have any idea, really.
@ Bridget: but there’s likely information at the link posted above by another commenter – http://www.lutheranservices.org/pastoral_care_and_hipaa
Monica, I meant leave those suffocating groups. I shouldn’t type on an iPhone… Sorry:(
@ Bridget:
I would also add that I don’t believe that it was ever taught or communicated from the pulpit that people should not call the authorities if they were aware of abuse. I never heard any such thing in my 30 years in SGM (which included 5 at CLC back in the 80’s). I do not doubt, however, that this was communicated in private counseling sessions.
@ Marge Sweigart:
I agree that it was on an individual level that it was communicated to “not report” sexual abuse.
Do you remember ever hearing from a pulpit that sexual abuse “should be reported” to the police immediately? My guess is that it was never addressed publicly “either” way.
@ Bridget:
No, the topic was never mentioned that I recall.
@ Monica: Monica
Tis had nothing to do with your comment. There are some things in the other threads that I want to tone down in my new resolution to be a kinder Dee. Nothing to do with all of you.
Thanks for the reminder that TWW stands with victims. From my perspective, it’s so important to keep that front and center in our minds in order for this conversation to continue to be productive.
Sue wrote:
Sue, thanks so much for the link. You are still not protected. The legal hoops are enormous and I would love to read of such a case that was won against a church. I am not trying to be contrary it is just that I don’t think folks really think this through.
In the mega industrial complex it was not unusual for the mega to be juggling 5 lawsuits a month. The pew sitters have no idea because they rarely make it past a certain point. Why? Because the new person attended a “new member” class or was “briefed” by a staff pastor on being a new member and little did they understand that will it was all nice and sweet they were actually waiving most of their rights without realizing it if they signed anything. Even attending the class was enough to dismiss some of the suits without the agreement because they attended for a long time after that. I have the sad reality of having some of these legal people who are on retainer for these mega’s in my family. You would not believe the stuff that goes on.
Think of it. If a family member asks for prayer in a small group over an operation, that information is public now. The loop holes are enormous in these situations. Not everyting goes through a pastor. Or even someone ordained.
The ONLY way to protect oneself is to never officially join a church. That is sad but it is the new reality. If you officially join, you may have no recourse. You have no idea how many things have been legally vetted already. I have even seen some of the churches now, ask new members specfic questions in front of the congregation concerning “loyalty” which they always agree to and there are hundreds of witnesses without even signing anything!
Dee and Deb: I wanted to pass this along to you and TWW readers:
Peter Smith did an article on the recent ruling here: http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20130518/NEWS01/305180046/Lawsuit-alleging-sexual-cover-up-Sovereign-Grace-Ministries-dismissed
I took issue with this particular statement in the article: Two other plaintiffs are under 21, but Burrell dismissed their claims as well because they center on alleged abuse in Virginia.
His wording puzzled me because WJLA reported that the case was not entirely dismissed.
I contacted Attorney Susan Burke for clarification and asked if she could send me a statement to post and she did yesterday. Her statement makes it much more clear:
Anon 1 wrote:
Anon 1 — That is creepy. Do you recommend that those who are members resign officially even if they intend to stay at their church? Can you give some pros and cons?
Anon 1 wrote:
I’ve always been annoyed at “please pray for my uncle’s wife’s sister who is having surgery on her toe” type of requests but HIPPA brings in another interesting layer. I think for “prayer requests”, either the person being prayed for needs to be the one asking for it or whoever is doing the gossipping…i mean PRAYER SHARING…should ask permission to share on their behalf. Is this a topic TWW willing to investigate? Should be a good discussion.
Jeannette Altes wrote:
I couldn’t agree more with everything said here. I truly hope that Christ has healed and continues to heal Josh from all the pain he must have endured. I hope that Josh was not involved in covering up the current sex scandal. At the same time, if he was, I hope that he will work that out between himself and God, and between himself and the authorities, AND between himself and the victims.
@ Julie Anne:
Peter Smith probably should have explained that the two Virginia residents were suing in the wrong jurisdiction (Maryland) and that they will need to file the lawsuit in Virginia should they choose to go forward against the Defendants.
I have no doubt that Susan Burke knows what she's doing and there was a reason she included the two Virginians in the lawsuit filed in Montgomery County, MD.
@ Kristin:
I never liked all that either . . . prayer turning into a prayer gossip pit. Of course, your “not humble” if you don’t bring everything about everyone. Then your accused of being prideful . . . can’t please anyone can we. Did Jesus say anything about massive prayer groups . . . hmmm.
@ Deb:
I agree, with you Deb. I’m sure Susan has weighed everything carefully. I wanted to post it here because several people asked me for more clarification.
I’m really disappointed in much of the reaction I’ve read here today. Maybe what Josh said yesterday, his vulnerability, was a small step, but it was a step I am grateful for.
@ sad observer: Yes – well said!
@ Natalie Trust: I think you might really like the following comment:
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2013/05/19/reports-joshua-harris-reveals-he-was-molested-as-a-child/#comment-98887
Julie Anne wrote:
As I understand it, Virginia has no statute of limitations for child molesting. Did The Humble One(TM) and his Smithers decamp from Virginia (led to plant a church in Kentucky et al) just before things went public?
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
Wellllll as I mentioned, I find it hard to be cynical about his motives for making his statements. I should probably state now that I’ve never been a part of SGM (though thanks to this blog, my husband and I narrowly avoided becoming members of an SGM affiliated church).
Maybe I’m naive in my assessments, but my past work with adult childhood sexual abuse victims just makes me take Harris’ comments at face value. Plus, I still fail to see how admitting that he was a victim himself puts any positive spin in motion. If anything, this makes it all the more tragic to me.
Val wrote:
Thanks for the clarification. It read as if directed to his confession.
I agree that it would have been ideal (if ANYTHING out of this muck could be considered “ideal”) that Harris would have come forth sooner rather than later and maybe helped prevent the victimization of some others.
However, to go back to my previous statements, it could be that he just found the courage now.
I dunno, it’s a sad, sorry situation all the way around.
Bridget wrote:
If the above speculation is true, I would count that as mitigating circumstances. A fish doesn’t know it’s wet.
However, Harris’s IKDG and its resulting Purity Cult/Courtship Movement HAS ended up causing more problems that it solved. How much of that was due to Harris and how much to IKDG fanboys picking up Harris’s ball and running with it is open to debate.
I left the SGM chruch in Apex, NC last summer after helping plant it and attending for 20 years. The church I now attend is proactively and with grace addressing the subject of sexual abuse head on. At this link is this past Sunday’s message. Many people responded and were prayed and cared for. Resources for helping those who have been abused are also at the sight. I encourage you to watch the message and use the resources to bring grace to victims and protect children from the preditors. http://www.summitrdu.com/abuse
@ dee:
It’s ok, I only realized as I was typing that Robin’s comment was worded so that it could be interpreted two ways, and I misinterpreted it into it saying that one belonging to such a group (neo-Calvinist) should leave this site… which was not meant at all; the idea was that such a person should leave the neo-Calvinist group… I only realized after I posted my question that the quote could be taken another way. As I said, I was a bit ticked off at something else (not related to this site), and that probably colored my reading. Sorry!
Robin wrote:
No problem, it sounded a bit ambiguous and I only saw the nastier interpretation… Sorry!
@ Bridget:
That’s great news. If the church has been healthier since Josh’s arrival, that is encouraging. I don’t know anything about the day to day workings of his church and if it has been on the right track for a while, if it has then that is wonderful. Christians are waking up to how open church authority can be to abuse. I think we all need to be wise to positions of power or authority. Giving people carte blanch authority is never healthy, leaders need to be held accountable by the people who they lead. That is why democracies work, that is why individuals have legal rights.
It seems that many churches viewed rights and democratic processes as secular and bad, but now are realizing that they are necessary in a fallen world. My hope is that church members everywhere realize that no one can be handed blind trust and following your own conscience is a holy as trusting leaders. Jesus and Paul warned of false and dangerous preachers. Someone cannot claim they are from God or good, that has to be discerned by an individual before trust is handed to them. If a leader breaks trust, a person has the right to withdraw their view of that person as an authority figure in their lives.
A true Christian leader would empower their followers to discern good leading for themselves. A true Christian leader doesn’t control what a person reads or says to others. They can give guidelines, but ultimately the individual will make their own choice.
I have a friend who left a very controlling immigrant community when she became a Christian. She had to run away, legally change her name and wear a disguise for a time. The hardest part for her was that she had never done anything, or gone anywhere on her own. All decisions had been made for her. She was very, very dependant on others, and she woke up to just how dependant she had been. Christians who go to churches where the staff make all the decisions for them, from what to say to others to what to read are not healthy. They are not “protecting the flock”, they are making them dependant on the leaders. That is not what Christ preached. He told us to be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Well, to be innocent, you need to know both good and evil and make the good (wise) choice. If you are just blindly given the decision, how do you know that is the decision you would make? Naivety is not innocence, it actually endangers a person in the long term.
So, considering gossip (slander is better translated a malicious lie, and is criminal in many instances), I do find it curious that people come on here and call us gossips and then others often ask if they are from SGM. First, gossip goes into that naivety vs. innocence territory. One has to discern for oneself if something is actually gossip (we are all grown ups, we don’t need to be told) or just information. If someone says “the type of unquestioning authority taught at an SGM church lead to abuse cover-ups” that is someone’s opinion – it may or may not be a fact. If it is proven to be true, then it becomes a true fact to the hearer. So, is that gossip or information? In the sermon on the Mount, Jesus says love protects. Looking at various denomination’s leadership styles and making a decision based on that fact could well protect a family or person from abuse. That is not gossip. That is helpful info. If the congregants had broken ranks with the leadership back in the day and chosen to tell other families about the sexual abuse that had occurred in the nursery, or sleep-over, or wherever it was, that would not have been gossip, rather, it would have been helpful information. It is gossip if it only seeks to harm someone else. If the info seeks to protect an innocent person and in the process harms the perp, well, tough. The information was not gossip, just an inconvenient truth. Again, we are all adults and can judge for ourselves if something is just out there to stir a pot or if there is valuable information within.
In the case of pedophilia, two lives can potentially be destroyed. If someone accuses a man (for example) of having raped their young child, that man’s life could be altered. However, if no one says anything and that man is not stopped, a young victim’s life could be destroyed. So, the church calling it gossip or not, if the information is helpful to other parents and protects innocent children, the destruction that falls from the information may well be the right (innocent) choice in the end. Just run this by a court of law, if people in the church knowingly kept silent about sexual predators having access to other people’s kids, are they innocent in their silence? No, so be wise as serpents (judge for yourself) and innocent as doves (seeking to practice true protective love, despite the fallout for the guilty adult).
Hi Tom,
Glad you commented here. But I am sorry to say I think (my opinion) JD Greear is just another part of the larger problem. I think you changed one groupthink venue for another.
From my perspective reading over at surivors long ago, it is very hard for those who leave SGM not to get attached to another “strong leadership” culture. It seems to be ingrained.
Do you think Greear supports Mahaney? Are SGM books still sold there?
Janey wrote:
Oh my word! I never thought of that before. What an interesting question!
If it were the mega industrial complex church and the person was not in some leadership capacity (as in teaching, etc) I doubt they would even know if you were continuing to come or not after sending them a certified letter rescinding your membership. You would probably continue to receive tithe envelopes in the mail, though. :o) It is that easy to be anonymous in those places. In fact, I was always amused at how many volunteers like those passing out bulletins wearing big smiley face buttons were not official members.
But if it is smaller church, I cannot imagine it NOT being a problem.
Kristin wrote:
In the church I am attending, Only the first names are read aloud for prayer. No last names, no reason why. Only one person knows of the request and that is the person you are requesting to read it in church. And even then, they only know what you tell them. I’m blessed to be in a church that doesn’t give you the third degree and respects your privacy.
Anon 1 wrote:
Anon,
I didn’t post this as a referendum on a church or a leader. It is to help those who have been sexually abused or are abusers. There are small numbers of books at the bookstore and none of them are SGM. I can’t say whether Greear supports Mahaney, but he does support Jesus and is work on earth. The strength of leadership, size of the church or other such factors are not on my criteria for a good healthy church. How they express their love for God, love for his people and love for the world are. I would have no problem with recommending this church to anyone (I did and still do have problems with recommending a SGM church).
Tom, No problem. You might want to ask Greear if he supports Mahaney. I think a lot of the Neo Calvinist churches are really starting to jump on the “how to deal with abuse” simply because of the all the problems in that movement from Driscoll to Doug Wilson to Mahaney to Piper teaching that women should take abuse for a season, etc. I do think there is a push to change their image. But as one who used to play the PR game for mega’s, I don’t trust words. I would rather they speak OUT against what has happened with so many in their movement. So call me a cynic! :o)
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:
I have wondered the same thing. What happens a lot of times is that men exposed to “kissing dating goodbye” don’t have the social skills to interact with those of the opposite including the skills needed to find a partner. Thus “arranged” marriages could be the only alternative.
Daisy wrote:
I have a blog that critiques Josh Harris’s book. One woman who wrote a book titled “Did I Kiss Marriage Goodbye” didn’t seem to even think there might be a correlation between her “kissing dating goodbye” and her apparently “kissing marriage goodbye.”
http://ikdg.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/does-kissing-dating-goodbye-lead-to-kissing-marriage-goodbye/
The next Big Box post is up. And Steve, I linked to your blog in it! : )
http://scarletlettersblog.wordpress.com/2013/05/20/seven-bible-truths-violated-by-christian-dating-tbb/
Tom, has Grear jumped the neo cal ship? I see he is at a lot of tullian functions and since tullian just spoke at mockingbird (the antithesis of neo cal) I think some of these guys in this suffocating group might be burning out as well. It appears some are searching for the gospel even after we are saved. Your thoughts?
Dis wrote:
I haven’t seen too many people slamming Harris personally, but criticizing some of his views.
I said in my first post I’m sorry for any abuse he endured as a child, and I meant that. People who were abused in childhood are not above criticism in other areas of life.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
As to what tiny bit of Christianity I am holding on to, if I had to choose prophetic views, I would still consider myself pre mil, pre trib, futurist, but after decades of listening to Hal Lindsey types, it’s gotten very, very old.
The constant rumination over comparing current headlines to Bible prophecy, the fixation on Israel, etc., get so old.
Every time Israel gets attacked (which has been several times going back to the 1990s in my life time), John Hagee and Lindsey, et al, start excitedly proclaiming (like on ‘Sanford and Son’), “This is it, this is the big one, Jesus is returning now!”
Lindsey used to prophesy in 1980s books (before the USSR collapsed), that the USSR was going to play a part in WW3, they were painted as being America’s big foe.
But then, after 9/11, Lindsey and other prophesy guys got into, “It’s Islam!”
I agree Islam is dangerous, but that they try to shoe horn Islam into their prophecy framework now is irritating. If Islam falls out of favor tomorrow, and everyone becomes afraid of leprechaun, Lindsey and gang will say the world’s biggest enemy are leprechaun, or the Anti Christ is arising form a league of leprechauns.
Steve240 wrote:
etc. I did not type the words that appear under “Daisy said” there. There must have been some mix up. Your post was quoting someone else, not me.
@ hester – and @ someone else above (I can’t find the post and don’t remember who wrote it):
It’s not just Pentecostals, SGM, or home schoolers who push courtship or “singles should fear the opposite sex” teachings, as you will find strains and variations of those concepts among Southern Baptists and conservative evangelicals of various denominations.
All of conservative Christianity is rife with the “dating is evil” or “singles should stay away from singles, so as not to fall into pre-marital sex” outlook, and these ideas are not only directed at teens, but also at Christian singles in their 30s and older.
These teachings are one of several Christian- and church- sponsored obstacles to single Christians getting married, since singles are taught lifestyles and choice making skills that are not conducive to getting spouses – they get taught the opposite.
@ Daisy: if you have a moment-check out Hal lindsey and see what’s going on with him. A bit unusual if you ask me.
@ dee:
Is there something specific he’s said or done lately you have in mind? I caught part of his show a few days ago (his weekly prophecy show on TBN), but it sounded like the usual stuff.
Or, you can e-mail me if you are more comfortable telling me in private.
I still agree with Lindsey’s overall prophetic views, but I don’t understand his (or any one’s) continued fascination with Bible prophecy to the point it’s all they ever talk about.
After 20+ years of hearing “Jesus is coming!,” and every little attack against Israel over-analyzed from him and others, I got burnt out on prophecy.
I just went to the home page of Lindsey’s site, but nothing too out of the ordinary.
Daisy wrote:
You’re not the only burnout, Daisy. I got immersed in The Gospel According to Hal Lindsay back when the Bible only had 3 1/2 books — Daniel, Revelation, the “Nuclear War Chapter” of Ezekiel (the 1/2), and Late Great Planet Earth, with the last-named superseding the other 2 1/2.
Some real Bad Craziness going around — “Christians For Nuclear War”, Anti-Semitic Zionism, fatalism, hopelessness, despair, why bother it’s all gonna burn, Rapture, Rapture, Rapture. More emphasis on The Antichrist (Henry Kissinger?) than Christ — “DON’T TAKE THE MARK!!!” Christ as “Turbo-Jesus”, come to destroy everything and cast as many of us as possible into Eternal Hell. I ran a “Left Behind Fever” of around 105 for a couple years (though the term “Left Behind Fever” wouldn’t be coined for another 30 years or so).
I didn’t stop having PTSD-style flashbacks until the mid-Eighties. I still will not voluntarily look out of a kitchen window that faces east.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I listened to a recent news report where Christian parents objected to their children using palm scanners in the school cafeteria because they were afraid that it could be the “mark of the beast.”
This kind of thing makes a mockery of Christians and the Faith.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
Hug, there was big money in the Prophecy biz and every Tom Dick and Harry got on the bandwagon. After that fad, the big money was in comp doctrine.
Nicholas wrote:
Let me enlighten you about the “IBM 3666” point-of-sale scanners, back when barcodes were first coming into use…
And the Mandatory Federal Law (effective 1984) requiring implanted ID chips or tattooed barcodes on the forehead and/or right hand…
(Unless you’re a Seventh Day Adventist, that is. Then the Mark of the Beast is “The National Sunday Law”, where a “just passed” Federal Law requires SUNDAY church attendance.)
I think there’s an actual psych term for “666-phobia” or “666-paranoia”, but it’s a real tonguetwister. Pin-the-tail-on-The-Antichrist mania can really mess you up.
Dee & Deb,
I have so appreciated this blog that you have created. As an SGM Survivor who left CLC many years ago, I was one of the first commenter at the SGM survivors site when it debuted in Nov. of 2007. I knew all the SGM propaganda online at the time was all lies, and I was so happy and supportive of a place being created to allow the truth to get out and for people like myself a place to unpack and sort out the horrible SGM baggage. But sadly, SGM Survivors failed to develop into a healthy place online for me. There are two community responses that are necessary to rebuilding a survivors sense of justice & order and these are recognition and restitution. When it became apparent that the moderators, who are not SGM survivors themselves, we’re more interested in having their own opinions recognized in regards to the subject of complementarianism. Instead they chose to fight against allowing the subject to be discussed as it related to how I was personally traumatized, and denying it as a valid reason for having harmed me, working instead to promote their personal beliefs. I attempted to discuss it but to no avail, which re-tramatized me, especially after they repeatedly referred to my wanting to discuss the very legitimate problem as it being nothing more than my “hobby horse.”
Thankfully God worked through you two ladies to provide a healthy place that has allowed the subject of complementarianism to be discussed in connection with the systemic problems that are inherent in SGM. I’m sure I am not alone in expressing my appreciation for your wisdom and willingness in understanding victims, and the need we have for a safe community where our trauma is recognized and respected and not invalidated or denied.
Which brings me to Josh Harris’ message. I know he states he himself is a victim of sexual abuse. And I know he’s in a tough situation. However, despite his soft & sensitive tone which seemed sympathetic, I had all kinds of serious problems with his message. In fact, it angered me. And what makes something like his message worse is when he begins by saying he asked the Lord about what to say and without affirming an answer, launches into his sermon by leaving the listener with the assumption they are going to be hearing from God. In the end, I was left with serious doubts about Harris’ confidence regarding his having heard from God and the supposed answer to his prayer.
Harris is addressing a group of people that have all been affected by the scandal but who have been instrumental as a group, either in whole or in part, in covering up abuse or distancing themselves from those of us who have been speaking out for years against SGM on the anti-SGM blogs. Yes, he shares he was a victim. And yes he tells people to call the police. But where does he say anything that works to restore the breach between the individuals who have been traumatized there with the community? Where was the public acknowledgment of the sexual abuse which occurred there, and the call for community action? The only call for action he makes is for people to call the police like it’s their responsibility, and then assigns everyone with the responsibility to be focused on the Lord making everything right in the end, effectively minimizing the whole problem and assigning zero responsibility for the harm that’s been done or what’s going to be done to repair the injury. Yet, in the end he says he doesn’t want anyone to leave CLC and remarkably suggests that it’s loyal church attendance that keeps us from falling away, without realizing or acknowledging that the people who have been the most injured by CLC are those people, like myself, who regularly attended and were injured by their continuous exposure to dangerous people, dangerous leaders, and dangerous teachings! It’s like asking people to keep living in a toxic waste dump by someone who’s in denial about it having been toxic in the past, and with no real environmental spoken of for the future. Let’s just keep building, and focus our attention on how that heavenly city will be someday – free of poison and decay!
This is the wrong message and I’m sorry, but what survivors look for is tangible evidence of public recognition so they don’t feel afraid their ordeals will just disappear while everyone focuses on the End of the Story. A Vietnam vet has said, “If at the end of the war you feel uplifted, or if you feel that so he small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, then you have been made the victim of a very old and terrible lie.” And I think that’s true. I think Josh Harris’ message was a lie. I don’t believe at all for an instant that it was a message from God. And I think it works to further build a climate that compounds the isolation of victims by its insistence on regular attendance as a means of staying close to God within a group that wants you to essentially deny the past by focusing exclusively on some unclear future event.
And all this while it’s widely known that, while CLC has disenfranchised itself from SGM, it did so meekly and mildly. And key defendants in the lawsuit are current CLC staff and close associates. So far, efforts to seek justice have involved further traumatization because of responses from men like Grant Layman, CLC pastor still functioning full-time and is a defendant in the lawsuit. The legal system, as we know, provides strong guarantees for the rights of the accused but essentially no guarantees for the rights of the victim – as we have recently seen. (Which, by the way, makes tweets by the likes of Kevin DeYoung all the more shameful.) Seriously, if one set out to design a system for provoking post-traumatic symptoms, one could not do better than a court of law. (Women who have sought justice in the legal system commonly compare the experience to being raped a second time.) It’s a hostile environment that’s organized like a battlefield, which is why Christians are called to settle things out of court if the can. And God knows people tried. But the system within SGM for settling grievances was just as worldly, designed to protect SGM leaders from the superior powers of the state but not to protect women from the superior powers of the men within the hierarchical system. And Josh Harris knows this. So, while sounding sympathetic about the whole situation, I think it was clear he wants to move on as quickly as possible and focus on that bright future hope – while doing virtually nothing to actually heal the breach. How can he? Like I’ve said before, anyone in SGM (and I’m including CLC only because I’m so familiar with the character of so many of the members who maintain a position of hostility toward the anti-SGM blogs) is part of the problem. Yes, God can turn things around like he did in the WCG, which was truly exceptional. Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s not how I see his hand at work at this time, but perhaps in the future. Like it says in Ecclesiastes, there’s a time for every purpose. This is a time of tearing down if you ask me, and those who want to move on prematurely into a rebuilding phase are going to be fighting against the reality of what’s happening. And very few if any in SGM are well enough equipped to minister in the realm of reality!
Robin wrote:
Robin,
I’m not up on all the ins and outs of the various camps or tribes but I’ve noticed that JD’s most quoted and referenced guys are Keller and CS Lewis. I don’t think he is bound by any camp or group. I think he is finding his own path and drawing on the best of those that want to bring the gospel of Jesus to those who need to hear it.
Evie,
I’m so glad you posted all of that.
Evie, I am also glad you said that. You explained well some of my concerns. I am always concerned when I am told by a pastor I asked God what to say and launches in. This is so dangerous for them. But it is so common. They are setting themselves up to be the voice of God. I know people who have been on their knees for years that God has not told them “what to say”. Some of them came to the conclusion that God gave us brains, the Holy Spirit and right and wrong written on our hearts as believers.
Josh sounded like many of them who are afraid of losing members to the point there is no cash flow. That is a real concern and I am sure they are feeling the pinch after all this. If only they allowed people to see budgets. YOu don’t hvae to attend CLC to be close to God. God dwells in us and a community of believers can be three people who are sincere followers of Christ. The concrete and steel pleas are getting old.
Josh is a kinder gentler patriarchal authoritarian. But it is still the same stuff. It is the reason I do not find survivors a healthy place. They seem to think it is normal to wait around for the leaders to grow up or do the right thing. It is bizarre. They are not children but they act like they need a father figure to follow.
Patti wrote:
Thanks Patti. I’m sure it came across like a bunch of disjointed rambling. And I messed up the Vietnam vets quote which should have read, “If at the end of a war story you feel uplifted, or if you feel that some small bit of rectitude has been salvaged from the larger waste, then you have been made a victim of a very old and terrible lie.”
Also I meant to say that SGM’s system they had set up was designed to protect men from the superior powers of the state, but not to protect women and children from the greater power given to the position of men within SGM’s hierarchical system.
I hope I’m not alone, but I got angrier the longer I listened to him, and wasn’t taken in by his emotion. Harris is clearly out of his depth.
Thank you for your support Anon 1! I’m all for team work. And I appreciate that the Survivors site came into existence. That was good. But I agree with you, there’s something off base, and in my view it has to do with the Mom & Pop way it’s moderated, with Mom & Pop needing to have the last word because it’s their house kids, and themselves the rules. Maybe their next endeavor can be their own SGM Survivors bible translation or something.
I really did not get the impression that Josh Harris gets it AT ALL.
Evie wrote:
Evie, I think he is hanging on for dear life. This is all he knows how to do and is most likely very scared as the money is most likely really starting to dry up. he was raised in the patriarachal homeschool bubble by a family who made their living off ministry, mentored by Mahaney and now a pastor of the same church. He has never lived in the real world outside the bubble. This is all he knows how to do.
I keep hearing folks say that Josh is not SGM. Sorry but he has SGMish Shepherding DNA going back to his childhood.
If you want to see how this is going to play out, watch to see what kind of speaking gigs he gets around the conference circuit.
@ Evie:
Evie,
I have linked your comment on my blog because of how insightful it is.
Evie – – I agree with the others. Your comment is excellent. There was a PBS video that I posted on my FB page dealing with the 3 Ohio kidnapping victims and the professor of psychiatry who was interviewed was absolutely excellent. He was discussing what recovery looks like for victims of trauma. I wonder if part of the reason why Josh cannot “get it” completely is because he is incapable due to his own abuse issues. Just a thought. That was one of the points in the video – that normal emotional response is often stopped when someone endures trauma.
I watched the video of Josh Harris admit he’s been sexually molested as a child. I thought he was very brave. I talk with a lot of abuse survivors at my church. For them, being able to admit it to just one person is a big step. To actually go public and say it in front of hundreds of people, is an act of immense courage.
Now that he’s broken the silence, he’ll have time to really process the abuse and healing in a new way. Give him time. Give God time.
“SGM, CLC , Don’t Just Stand There Looking S-t-u-p-i-d Before All The Whole Wide World, Do Something?”
HowDee,
hmmm…
Our dear & wonderful sister Mary said some stuff about SGM and CLC, that touch my heart, I’de like ta share them (her words) with you all here:
“…I saw a picture today with the caption, ‘Lord, cleanse me of anything that breaks your heart.’
I think all the spiritual abuse of SGM has broken God’s heart.
This disunity has broken God’s heart.
In the book of Revelation God addresses churches and pastors.
(I just do not think that the phrase this didn’t happen on Josh’s watch is acceptable. )
Often God called nations to repent.
God can also call churches to repent. CJ never will — so who will?
Even if you are not convinced all the sexual abuse happened — we know for sure that some of it did.
We know the pastors responded in a way that caused further harm to the victims.
We know that leadership has controlled and treated people with a lording hardball attitude that has wounded some of your brothers and sisters.
All the men under CJ allowed the abuse.
So, not on my watch just doesn’t sit well with me…
I would have more respect for Josh and CLC if they issued a statement that they:
1. misused their leadership,
2. shunned people unnecessarily,
3. controlled private situations,
4. harmed families with their poor counsel, and
5. deeply wounded those that were sexually abused.
[Doing Nothing = No Respect.]
A. Be men.
B. Be strong.
C. Show courage.
You want mercy but didn’t give mercy.
You want love but you were unloving.
You want grace but you shunned.
You want peace but you are not a peacemaker.
1a. Call a fast.
1b. Fall on your faces.
1c. Ask God what CLC can do as a whole to repent.
Much abuse happened from CJ, pastors, CGL, and blind followers…
if CLC wants to restore honor — be honorable. Call a fast. Seek God. Ask what you can do to show repentance.
Doing Nothing Is Not Honorable….”
“Mary,”May 21st, 2013 A comment on sgmsurvivors.
*
Bravo! Mary, Preach it Sister,
Those who ‘do’ God’s word, and ‘teach it’, are the greatest in the kingdom of God….
YaHoooooo!
….♪♫♪ Dis lit’l lite O’ mine, Ize gonna let it shine….
hum, hum, hum…
S“㋡”py
—
Julie Anne Ooowrote:
Thanks Julie Anne, and I gotta say again that not only was I angered by Harris’ sermon, I found his having shared his personal experience with abuse within the context of the message deeply disturbing as well. To think that he may have shared that in an effort to draw attention away from scandal to himself and create a sensation is reprehensible to me, regardless of the veracity of his experience. Who knows, what he is describing as abuse may not be anywhere near the category of abuse experienced by the plaintiffs who have come forward to tell their stories. He gives zero details. Was he raped? Fondled? Unwillingly exposed to pornography? Was there physical contact, or was it something more benign? Without knowing the nature of his abuse, I simply cannot support his having tearfully come out his experience, giving off the impression that he can sympathize with the defendants, when I never felt he truly demonstrated an ounce of sympathy for the victims. I think it was merely an impression. I think it was calculated to appear sympathetic. I think it was disingenuous. And I think it was staged.
I would describe myself as having lived within a perpetual state of trauma during my entire time in CLC, and it started from the get-go. I attempted, on numerous occasions, to get help with the bad relationship I was in, within a system that kept hidden the real conditions the majority of women found themselves in. It simply wasn’t true that adhering to narrowly defined gender roles within marriage was God’s order and the key to relational harmony, compatibility, and marital bliss. The message women were given is that we bore the burden of making our marriage successful, and if it wasn’t, we simply weren’t blessed to have a “marriage like heaven on earth” like all those in leadership declared they had – an apparent qualification for having any kind of spiritual authority. No, whenever I had serious issues, my (now ex) husband would fob me off and tell me to go talk to one of the pastors. And when I did, the exploitation and injustice I described and was met with complete inaction. The CLC Pastors and CG Leaders I sought help from (at least 8 different ones) all acted in accorded. As a whole they were unwilling to recognize that their well-established system for domestic life could coexist with conditions of cruel autocracy such as I was experiencing in the home. It was like speaking out about the poor condition of my marriage, which included my ex husband becoming physically abusive (something I was ashamed of), was to invite ridicule of my spiritual life. If I were more of a biblical wife, then my husband would become more biblical in his dealings with me. The problem was, according to their system, there was nothing technically wrong with my husband’s autocracy, but I knew there was. But the fact of the matter in SGM is the subordinate condition of women is maintained and enforced by the hidden violence of men. Battered women and sexually abused children are casualties of the war between the sexes in SGM, a dynamic they instituted within their strict complementarian framework that gives the authority and control over others to men. So, I never had any recourse and should have sought help outside of the church, but that was against the rules.
The thing is, over and over the Mahaney’s bad mouthed feminism, but it’s the feminist movement that has provided a foundation for women to stand on who are struggling domestically, a foundation that is biblically supported. But along with their denouncement of feminism came the systemic psychological traumatization of women and children, locked up in an organized hierarchy that gave them no power to transcend the gulf created and steadfastly maintained by SGM churches: the public sphere of initiative and leadership – the world of me, and the private sphere of domestic life – the world of women and children.
In almost every case, SGM leaders default automatically to strengthening and supporting the role of male leadership, which they believe is essential to biblical order and to “the gospel” as they preach it. The same order that Joshua Harris is a card carrying member of, a position he is careful to maintain as the Senior Pastor of CLC. His sharing his own experience of abuse was so guarded, you’re left wondering to what extent he was actually overpowered against his will. Perhaps this is why he kept saying something about “our own mistakes” in reference to abuse, and that he doesn’t see himself as a true victim, but rather someone who was in control, but made the “mistake” of letting someone take control of him. That’s what it sounded like to me, Julie Anne, like his own experience wasn’t really something that happened to him against his ability to control it like a man. That if he was subjected to it it was his own fault, which is why I think he doesn’t “get it.” Unless he’s in denial, he didn’t sound like an individual who was truly relating to the trauma caused by having been abused. If so, he sure minimized it to the point of having very little relevancy in his life. So, come on! Let’s snap out of of it and focus our minds on our future perfected state, regardless of our responsibility now to be working to establish God’s Kingdom on earth so as to hasten that great and glorious day when all things are made new. I can tell you that’s not going to happen if we as a church keep turning a deaf ear and a blind eye to abuse! We’re called to expose it, something CLC has resisted, especially Mr. Harris’ mentor CJ Mahaney, who is loathe to ever appear subordinated, especially to women or children.
“I watched the video of Josh Harris admit he’s been sexually molested as a child. I thought he was very brave. I talk with a lot of abuse survivors at my church. For them, being able to admit it to just one person is a big step. To actually go public and say it in front of hundreds of people, is an act of immense courage.
Now that he’s broken the silence, he’ll have time to really process the abuse and healing in a new way. Give him time. Give God time.”
Janey,
I agree with this. Although I have not followed the SGM situation as closely as some on this blog, nor have I been in the “lion’s den of SGM” as Evie has, I think this was a bold step for Josh as a victim of abuse, and it may take time to process this whole thing.
I realize as a leader Josh has not done near ENOUGH to right the wrongs that CLC has done, but I personally feel like being cautious in assuming that this was staged due to his past sins with SGM. Maybe it is, and God help him if Josh would choose to pour salt on an already ugly open wound by “staging” himself as a victim.
But personally, I feel I need to take his word on this. Maybe the nature of the abuse was not as severe as the plaintiffs in the trial, but abuse can still be traumatic no matter the severity.
I am praying, HOPING, that this is a step in the right direction for CLC. It may be too late for the abuse that has already happened, but Josh has urged those in CLC to call the police if abuse takes place. That seems to be a big step in the right direction, although it has taken decades to get there.
I do agree with Mary, the women who commented on SGMsurvivors—-They need to call a fast, seek God, and let the Holy Spirit guide them to repentance. Josh needs to admit the wrongs that have been done already, and hopefully healing will follow.
It seems like a step towards repentance when Josh asks the church to call the proper authorities when abuse takes place considering this is quite different from where SGM previously stood.
This whole thing is so terribly ugly…I am hoping/praying justice will prevail in this whole thing, but it would be an amazing sight to actually see genuine repentance from some of these leaders—-I am hoping this is what we might be seeing in the beginning stages from Josh as he begins to step out against abuse by asking his church to call the authorities, while sharing he himself has been abused.
However, as I said before, God help him if he is staging this.
@ Evie:
Thanks for sharing your perspective, Evie. You’ve given me a lot to think about.
Evie, I hear your concerns. I think we have to believe Josh. BUT….here is something I am VERY concerned about and think we must take into consideration because of what we know about PDI/SGM, Josh’ background in shepherding/patriarchy…and the blind devotion of many SGM/CLC brainwashed followers…..the TIMING
What if Josh now starts weaving into his sermons/talks that he has totally forgiven his molester and does not want to see revenge. He can couch it in love and mercy terms as if justice is evil. Can you see how that will affect the thinking within CLC, create loyalty and once again victimize the victims?
I really think folks should beware of how this might play out.
Therefore, I think it is totally acceptable to ask Josh to live out his advice to folks about calling the police and namehis abuser. You see, by NOT naming his abuser, how many folks in his past will be looked at suspiciously? He is not exactly a nobody figure these days within Christendom. He has created a situation that is not good no matter who you look at it.
Either he follows his own advice for or he creates an environment of suspicion over others.
There is also another side to this that most folks totally miss. And that is because most of them are not in a situation to understand it. That side is money. This is all these guys know how to do and if anyone here thinks the cash flow has not been seriously affected, they are ignorant. It could become serious enough to start laying people off and probably is there. So they are in a conumdrum. Most people it seems over at survivors only see this as a spiritual issue with the leaders. They miss it totally that it is a business issue to many of those who make their living off CLC donors.
Christians are very naive about this aspect of church.
Seeker — I know what you’re saying. I think we all would like to see full disclosure and apologies and restitution as quickly as possible. We need to accept any steps that SGM people take in the right direction at face value … BUT with the old caveat: “Trust but verify.”
@ Seeker:
“I do agree with Mary, the women who commented on SGMsurvivors—-They need to call a fast, seek God, and let the Holy Spirit guide them to repentance. Josh needs to admit the wrongs that have been done already, and hopefully healing will follow.”
****************
Hi, Seeker.
I wonder…. why is a fast necessary? They don’t know what they did?!? It seems quite plain that SGM leaders lied, concealed truth, protected paedophiles, interfered with the legal process, among other things. Why is a fast needed to be honest and do the right thing? To admit horrible behavior and pursue restitution?
To me, it’s just an opportunity to create more religious spin and self-congratulation. (“God showed me…I’m the worst sinner…. [accolades, accolades…]”}
To me, “a fast” in this context is overspiritualizing the process of simply doing the right thing, which decent people do every day without all the pageantry.
elastigirl wrote:
Exactly.
Elastigirl,
I see your point but I think you misunderstand me.. The problem with all of this is these leaders have not been “walking” with the Spirit of God since the very beginning… They have done many things contrary to the Spirit of God, which is why abuse has thrived in this setting..
I am not saying they shouldn’t admit horrible behavior FIRST, in fact they should admit all the wrongs immediately.. In fact the time for that should have happened long ago… But I think they should then proceed to do what I believe people who are repenting over something like this SHOULD do.. Humble themselves before God.. Fast, Genuinely Seek God, learn to be leaders who walk by the Spirit and not by other things..and I am not talking about pageantry here, I would hope this would be more private than public,…I would hope this would be genuine/ not staged… If this becomes about accolades or a “show” for SGM, then nothing has changed..I would hope it would not be a show…
If that happens, then I see hope for SGM..But if they choose NOT to humble themselves before God and let the Spirit guide them, then I doubt much will really change for SGM.. They may admit their wrong doings and seek restitution, but apart from the guidance of the Spirit, how long before more trouble arises?
Hope that clears up what I was trying to say, which I understood to be from Mary’s comment from SGMsurvivors.. see Sopy’s comment:
seeker, They are cult “leaders”. They are charlatans. To repent would mean they admit that, tell everyone they misrepresented God and get out of ministry. And I would say that without the molestations. It is a long time shepherding cult. They teach people to follow man instead of Christ. The molestations are a natural progression of the shepherding cult.
Trust In Him: “God always makes a way!”
Seeker,
Hey,
Those who have reached a certain maturity in the scriptures, understand a great many of God’s promises written therein.
They also understand the need to trust God with their very lives, to constantly be praying (talking with God) , and interceding (praying for others, if and whenever possible) for what Paul the Apostle called ‘the saints’, those called out one’s, separated unto God’s purpose. Simply, those who place their faith in Jesus Christ.
The scripture also speak of a time of setting aside the consumption of food, and other things normally in our daily lives, –for a season, for the purpose of drawing closer to Almighty God, and trusting more fully in His precious promises.
Drawing close to God, times of prayer, times dedicated to a further understanding of his word, theses thing a mature believer pursues.
A mature believe understands that everything proceeds from faith. We believe God, we believe that He rewards those who seek Him, that He rewards those who flee from evil, who pursue the good.
Sometimes a relationship with God is a difficult concept for some.
Yet, it is always good for the believer to draw close to God during the hard times, the times of doubt, the times of trials, especially during the times of oppression, or conflict, or great need.
We are assured by the promises of scripture, that if we will draw close to God, He will draw close to us.
A time of fasting, and a dedicated time of prayer can assist greatly, -the life of the believer; our Lord Jesus, ever faithful, ever consistent, ever ready to intercede on our behalf.
Thank you for your comments. I value them.
“God always makes a way!”
Blessings!
S㋡py
—
Anon 1 wrote:
Hey Anon 1,
What needs to happen is Josh Harris needs to be questioned about what he shared. But what often happens, and what I see happening here in several of the comments, is that there’s an immediate sense he needs to be protected. He’s a victim. Let’s leave him alone and respect his privacy. Let’s assume he’s just come out with this information and he’s totally going through this difficult time of processing it and needs a lot of space, prayer, and support.
But I think it’s important, especially in light of all that’s been revealed and the lawsuit, that Harris provides detailed information regarding the nature of his abuse. And I think it’s fair to ask, don’t you? Isn’t it fair to inquire about it since he’s taken the step to come out publically and not privately. Since he shared it openly within a context where he was recorded for anyone to listen to who cares to?
What would he do, or leaders of his church do, if a member of the church came forward and told them they had been sexuallly abused? Would they ask questions?
John Loftness asked questions, didn’t he? In fact, he wanted the act of abuse reenacted.
Gary Riccucci wanted to know details didn’t he? And then upon discovery he instructed the mother of the child to lock her child’s bedroom door at night to prevent it from happening again.
What’s CLC’s new position? Call the police. Does that mean no questions asked? Just call the police? Is anyone going to ask Josh Harris if he’s going to contact law enforcement about his sexual abuse, especially if the person is alive and possibly abusing others?
I’m with you Anon 1. The timing is just too convenient. Why now? And more importantly, why was there nothing shared about his response, a critical factor to be considered within this whole SGM lawsuit mess.
SGM leadership was made aware of incidences of sexual abuse and the problem, the main problem was their RESPONSE.
Josh Harris doesnt share anything about his response. Did he suppress it and keep it a secret? If so, for how many years? That would be important to know considering the case involves the SOL.
I just find this continues to anger and frustrate me on so many levels. How could he share his own experience of abuse and remain so morally neutral? And why are so many people afraid to question him, as if he deserves to be shielded from scrutiny. I think now, more than ever, people have a whole host of reasons to question the guy specifically, especially regarding the context he shared it in. For me, it just doesnt add up.
We have been talking about SGM and REAL victims. I don’t think Josh Harris should be regarded as a victim, nor should he be allowed to play the victim (refusing to answer questions, saying it’s private, he’d rather not give details, etc) until he provides further evidence.
I’m sure others will think this is harsh. But I’m an SGM Survivor. I’ve learned how these guys work, and Ive seen how easily people fall for whatever they say. I know how they criminalize people for asking questions. I’ve also seen how easily they LIE.
By the way, I’m totally open to be proven wrong. But here’s the thing. In many people’s minds, Josh Harris is a big deal. He’s the Senior Pastors! And when he shares he has sexually abused, suddenly its a big story even if we don’t know what exactly happened, it’s still seems to be huge news. But what happened with people lower down the totem pole came forward to share what was going on? Were they given a microphone? Where they able to share it publically so that people would shower them with sympathy and support? They never got to stand up in front of church and warn others of what was going on. No, not at all. They were silenced. The microphone was never given to them. In fact, they were shown the door. And now Josh Harris is a courageous hero because he shared he was abused with an audience primed to be totally sympathetic to his revelation? I think it was MUCH MORE COURAGEOUS for people like HappyMom to fight to be heard while surrounded by church members who were HOSTILE to her story of abuse. Josh Harris knew sharing what he did would endear him to his audience. The Plaintiffs in the SGM lawsuit shared their story and the leadership of the church treated them with distain. Now, you tell me, which took courage???
Evie, If I were a betting woman, this is where I would bet it is going:
“What if Josh now starts weaving into his sermons/talks that he has totally forgiven his molester and does not want to seek revenge. He can couch it in love and mercy terms as if justice is evil. Can you see how that will affect the thinking within CLC, create loyalty and once again victimize the victims?
I really think folks should beware of how this might play out.”
I hope this does not happen for the sake of the victims who filed the lawsuit but I don’t trust anything that comes out of that place. They have given us patterns of behavior over a long period to discern. And it is not like he has SGM DNA totally out of his system.
@ Evie:
Evie –
I’m sorry that you experienced abuse in the SGM hierarchy vortex. It seems SGM became a gathering place of power hungry male egos. I was wondering if your story is written down somewhere? If so, can you point me to it? I don’t want to read it in one sense (heartbreaking and sad), but in another sense it helps to understand the mess that is SGM, and it helps in knowing you and what you have endured. No problem if it isn’t available.
@ Seeker:
Hi, Seeker.
I understand. Thank you for the comment.
I have some further thoughts, prompted by your comment. I’m just going with what’s running in my mind — none of it is a reflection on you or a challenge to you. I don’t know you, and we may very well be in agreement.
++++++++++
“They have done many things contrary to the Spirit of God, which is why abuse has thrived in this setting.”
++++++++++
–I think abuse thrived in this setting because of personality disorders at the helm of a psychologically destructive organization.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“…to do what I believe people who are repenting over something like this SHOULD do.. Humble themselves before God.. Fast, Genuinely Seek God, learn to be leaders who walk by the Spirit and not by other things.”
“They may admit their wrong doings and seek restitution, but apart from the guidance of the Spirit, how long before more trouble arises?”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
–I think all SGM leaders who did anything remotely like what’s in the lawsuit are permanently disqualified as leaders. I mean, the level of abused trust… with all the honest, integrous, gifted, skilled, and experienced leaders in the world, why should anyone stick with these guys??? (an honest question, not a challenge)
“Walking by the Spirit” and “guidance by the Spirit” does not set aright personality disorders, psycologically destructive modus operandi, years of dysfunctional behavior, years of operating in a controlling fear-inducing environment, years of poor character, limited life experience, underdeveloped life skills…
The SGM/shepherding/authoritarian model is like a disease, infecting people. Maiming them. Disfiguring them. Perhaps guidance by the Spirit can makes things more comfortable, but the disease is still there.
Elastigirl,
Thanks for your further comments…This is a delicate situation..and I don’t want to speak more than I need to because I am not deeply connected with this like so many, however, I will try to respond the best I can.
“I think all SGM leaders who did anything remotely like what’s in the lawsuit are permanently disqualified as leaders”
I agree with this statement…and I think with genuine repentance they would want to step down.
I will be honest with you—I know very little about the leadership structure in SGM other than what I have read on here…Take Josh for example—Some have said he joined SGM years after the abuse happened and the cover up held in the trial…or did I get that wrong? I realize far more has happend in SGM than molestation and the following cover up..
The question I have is this: Are ALL the leaders in SGM part of the cover up of abuse? IF so, then they ALL need to step down, even if they are repentant…
However, if they were not part of the cover up of abuse with molestation, then could it be possible that repentance/humility/seeking the Spirit transform them into the leaders they NEED to be?
I get what you, Anon1, and others are saying..These leaders are cult-like, they are charlatans…And on the surface, I would not want to stick with them..but I am looking at the BIG picture of what God COULD do…
What if true genuine repentance happens? What if some of these leaders in this cult-like system transform to a point where they abandon this cult like behavior and follow the Spirit of God and what HE wants for His church..
Maybe in this repentance they will desire to leave for all the pain they have caused…or maybe God leads them to stay and lead in a new way..I understand the fear and potential problems with the latter though..with all the deception, could those still in SGM really trust that true repentance has taken place? I guess their leadership style would reveal all in time.
““Walking by the Spirit” and “guidance by the Spirit” does not set aright…”
“guidance by the Spirit can makes things more comfortable, but the disease is still there.”
This is where I disagree. I am not trying to talk in “Christianese” here..I understand people toss around “walking in the Spirit” all the time, but I am trying to describe people who are actually dependant on the Spirit of God. The same Spirit who was promised to come by Jesus. The same Spirit that indwells and leads us in accordance to what JESUS desires.
I firmly believe if these leaders would walk in the Spirit as we all should, then this Shepherding/Authoritarian Model would not exist. The disease would cease to exist. Their former behavior would cease to exist…I believe God has the power and ability to change this situation…He has done so for countless others before..
If Jesus can save a murderous man named Saul who persecuted His Bride, and the Spirit of God led Paul to accomplish amazing things that would turn the Greco-Roman world upside down..could he not do the same with some of the leaders in SGM? Paul was transformed by his salvation and guidance of the Spirit..Could the Spirit accomplish the same for some of these leaders?
I know this is a very idealized point of view..and I would probablly say something else if I was in Evie’s shoes as a survivor. I know my limited viewpoint in all this is making me come across as naive.. I don’t fully know how destructive SGM has been apart from the horrible allegations and gleanings from stories from those on this blog.. I just know how disgusted I have been over the horrible stories of alleged abuse, how frustrated I have been that some leaders I used to listen too and have some respect for (even defended on here) have been glaringly silent in response to those allegations, how saddened I have been that these people do these things in the name of Jesus..
I guess I am saying all this because I so desperately want to see genuine repentance from these leaders..not because I have any connection to them, but because I want to see God transform this terrible painful situation into something beautiful. Instead of these leaders staying silent/remaining the same as their shepherding cult implodes around them..I would love to see a transformation in their lives and maybe even an eventual transformation in SGM.
Of course..maybe for that transformation to take place..these leaders, whether they repent or not…need to just step down..It is hard to say how God could transform this situation, but He may want these leaders to be the pastors they should have been all along..and I believe God has the ability to guide them there..
Sorry for the long post..hope I am making sense… 🙂
Seeker, Do you realize that PDI/SGM was built on secrecy and control? So a lot is just now coming out? Many victims thought they were the only ones.
So….keep that in mind. They claim they have been convicted of the evil and now repent and lets continue to do church. How would anyone know?
You do realize the ones who did not go along with everything or dared to question the leaders were degifted. The only ones left are the yes people who wanted into the inner ring.
This is one I disagree with folks on. The goal is to get help folks think critically and get out of there. Not try to make the leaders Christians.
“So….keep that in mind. They claim they have been convicted of the evil and now repent and lets continue to do church. How would anyone know?”
Anon1,
This is why I said I understand the fear and potential problems with this—I guess only TIME and their ACTIONS would reveal where they truly stand…but that leaves people open up to the possibility of abuse if they stay. It is a incredibly difficult situation, as I am sure it was for the Christians who had to trust Paul’s leadership after his well known infamous past.
God intervened with Paul and the other believers to build trust..Could God do this for SGM as well?
I am talking about a full blown miracle here Anon1…I am talking about a full blown intervention of God..This is what I HOPE to see…but I realize all logic points to another direction. I don’t see much evidence of repentance as of now, so I agree with your statement that people should think critically and get out of there. However, I hope the present situation will change. I want to see it change.
Here is my question to you–Do you want SGM as a whole to shut down completely or reform?
As I have said, I have no deep connection with this church, and I would love for nothing more to see this place shut down if the abusive tactics remain…However, I would love to see it thrive as part of the Church if the transformation I am talking about happens.
@ Seeker:
Seeker,
First off — I love your faith!!
I, too, couldn’t be further away from SGM, but I’ve observed much from the sidelines in the last year or two. I had my own experience with shepherding/authoritarian/controlling/nazi church for about 10 years – took 3 years to stop the anxiety reflex and to be able to think my own thoughts. It is dangerous stuff.
I have no idea if there are leaders/pastors who are completely innocent of the cover-up culture. But I would guess there are some.
I love your statement, “but I am looking at the BIG picture of what God COULD do…” That is so refreshing.
I’m so jaded and disillusioned with institutional religion (for good reason), but at the same time absolutely believe in God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, dunamis explosive power, the exceeding greatness of His power…
that “the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him, the eyes of your understanding[c] being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.” (Eph. 1…)
bigtime whoa
You mention “What if some of these leaders … transform to a point where they abandon this cult like behavior and follow the Spirit of God and what HE wants for His church.”
…and
“I firmly believe if these leaders would walk in the Spirit as we all should, then this Shepherding/Authoritarian Model would not exist. The disease would cease to exist. Their former behavior would cease to exist…I believe God has the power and ability to change this situation.”
Excellent. May it cease to exist.
While I still believe in the exceeding greatness of His power, I also know that many things simply do not work out. Or if they do, it can take decades.
While Jesus can certainly blast a person off his horse in a blaze of light and say “Hey! “tsup??!! Cool it!” …i’ve observed cultural change (even in a small pocket of society like a small denomination) to be an extremely slow process. Like turning a ship around. Even after Paul had his encounter, it was many years until he began his big stuff.
Yes, may the SGM leaders be transformed and detoxed and built up again. Which will take time. But not on the backs of those members and attenders stuck in SGM dysfunction central — they have given enough of their lives to it already.
I know I spent 10 twisted years in the shepherding/authoritarian/controlling/nazi church system, an additional 3 undoing psychological damage. And still undoing it, to be honest. The reason I stayed is I didn’t want to miss the bullseye of God’s perfect will – I had been so indoctrinated into this that I was immobile and too afraid to make any decisions (for fear it would be the wrong one and I would miss God’s platinum plan, and settle for the splintery wooden one and be a huge disappointment to God and everyone).
I’ve since come to value decision-making, and I do think God (1) wants us to use our brains and moxy to make decisions, (2) finds this process interesting, (3)wants to partner with us in our choice-making and the outcomes of our choices, (3) is ever ready to get busy and work in the situations that result,
and especially, (4) that God does not have perfect plan A which if missed means you and your whole life and your impact on the world are reduced to consolation prize status.
I have one life. I’ve already wasted many years in troubled dysfunction central, on principle. I do not desire to give it any more of my days. Not on ANY principle or ideal. I can do plenty of good and great with God elsewhere.
As can every honest, decent leader and layperson at what is currently known as SGM. Elsewhere.
@ Bridget:
Hey Bridget, thanks for asking. I have not shared my story yet, and I’m honestly not sure why except that it feels like it doesn’t have an ending and I don’t think I’ve recovered yet, leaving SGM being only one of three traumatic events that happened simultaneously in my life. I also am unsure from which perspective to write it. My outlook on my SGM experience seems to me to be less impacted by the things that happened to me, although those things were significant, and more impacted by the main source of my injury – the false gospel and the false teachers of SGM. So that’s where I’ve focused my efforts while I’m working through the process of my own recovery and what triggers me is when I know the gospel is being distorted and people are being manipulated by a false teacher.
@ Anon 1:
Anon 1, or will he stay relatively mum and politely refuse to offer details, acting like it’s more Christian to ‘cover’ the sin? If after going public he keeps it private, it will send a message because of the context he shared it in.
@ Evie:
Thanks for the reply, Evie. I think I understand. It sounds like you are still in the sorting process, except for being wary of false teachers. No sorting needed there. Sorry to hear about all the major tramatic events hitting at one time. It sure makes things precarious. I, too, was in an SGM church. The church bowed out of SGM. Much has changed, but the preferred doctrine isn’t what I’m in agreement with. Almost every week has me cringing at some point in the sermon. I don’t know where it will all lead. Taking one day at a time.
Josh Harris was interviewed by Christianity Today’s “Out of Ur” blog. He was asked about the abuse he experienced as a child. Here’s the first part of his answer…
“Yes, I did wrestle with the decision to share that part of my story. Even as I was preaching I found myself thinking, “Do you really want to open this up?” But I made that choice because I hoped that my vulnerability would make it easier for other victims of abuse to step forward and get help….”
http://www.outofur.com/archives/2013/05/friday_five_int_6.html
I’m really lost on why anyone is using Harris’s past experience of sexual abuse to attack his books.
First off, that’s a pretty despicable accusation, to treat anyone who has been abused as if they are somehow “tainted” and any adult relationship advice they give can have questions cast upon it.
Second of all, I didn’t date, and I’m happily married. Considering that the typical dating activities have almost nothing to do with typical married life, I have a hard time seeing how having dated would have helped me get married faster.
Jonathan wrote:
Jonathan — Who is saying Josh’s books aren’t good just because of the abuse? I’d recommend you read the comments in this thread.
The point is that Josh is the pastor at Covenant Life Church, which allegedly covered up rampant child sexual abuse for decades and allowed known pedophiles access to children, according to the May 14, 2013, lawsuit, is now admitting that he too was sexually abused. It is truly sad. Our hearts go out in sympathy and concern to Josh and all other (alleged) victims.
Jonathan wrote:
Nobody is doing that.
I said I’m sorry the guy was abused.
He is well-known for having written a book about dating.
Being a victim of child abuse does not make any books he writes as an adult or teen above criticism, though.
Even if he had not been abused as a child, his book about dating would still be awful. His book and similar dating books like it have done a lot of damage to single Christians.
I haven’t read here for awhile (actually in several years), but wanted to see what was new. I do not have SGM as my church history but I remember years back at my Calvary Chapel, when they were talking about dating/courting, someone mentioned Josh Harris’ books. I bought “Kiss dating goodbye” (and another I don’t remember the name of).. on audio. As I was listening to it, I discerned something that I found odd, but don’t remember what it was as it was over 7 years ago or so, when my kids were entering the teens. I bought into the “no dating only courtship”, and I am not sure that this will lead a child into a mature adult who will have healthy relationship experiences before marriage, if they are not even allowed to date. What is dating? Is it just sharing a movie together? To Josh if I remember, it was about never being alone with the opposite s+x lest you be tempted. I think this may lead to rebellion and promiscuity as I have seen it happen with several teens/young adults of those who enforced it. I have been also telling my teen son “This girl is going to be the wife of someone else’s husband one day”, and he has kept away from relationships all together. Is this a good thing? Maybe in the relationship there would be too much temptation. Any thoughts on these issues? BTW, there are some very intelligent writings on here.
Hannah wrote:
Welcome back to TWW! When I Kissed Dating Good-Bye was first published, I was a homeschooling mom with two daughters who were elementary school age. I did not buy the book, even though it was being heavily promoted in the homeschooling community. Now that Josh Harris has revealed he was molested when he was young, I have an entirely different perspective regarding his book. In hindsight, he was ill-equipped to give advice on that topic.
Deb, So do you think he brought that experience into his teachings? What do you think about the dating issue? Is it wrong for a young man of 18 to take a girl out to dinner?
Hannah wrote:
Hi Hannah,
I haven’t read Josh’s book, but as the mother of (now adult) two boys, I think it’s vital that they date. All teens need to learn to interact with the opposite sex and as well as learning to control their sexual urges. Self-control is one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit. There may be mistakes made, but isn’t that true of all of us in all facets of life? We fall down….we get up.
That’s how I see it at least. Life is a series of learning experiences and accepting responsibility for failing now and then.
Hannah
Our daughters and my son date, not court.
Dee/Victorious
Are the dates believers? That makes a difference although promiscuity is rampant in so called believers relationships. When my son left Christian school for public, his friends became non-believers. He says he will not date until he is a junior in college. I wonder if that is because most non believers engage in se+ual relations, and the expectations of the girls he would be with, and he doesn’t want to be tempted, or because of some guilt laid on him from me or the church. Maybe I will try and muster up courage to ask him since he just told me this last week.
Hannah wrote:
Exactly! Self-control is necessary regardless. My sons dated both if I remember correctly. I felt it important that they learn how to live “in the world” but not be “of the world.” One of my sons is a committed believer today and was married to a non-believer who is now a believer. They have not attended church for several years, however, due to the authoritarian mindset they’ve found in nearly every church they’ve attended. But they engage in lively discussions with me about the Lord and clearly love Him. I have suggested they attend the Warburg EChurch and I think they have several times.
The other son is not currently married or walking with the Lord.
I wonder how much sexual baggage from JH’s molestation made it into I Kissed Dating Goodbye. Getting molested as a kid can really mess you up sexually, and there’s gonna be fallout. Since JH’s book became the 67th Book of the Bible of the Christianese Purity movement, I wonder how much of his baggage ended up in the book and getting propagated. I do know from monitoring these blogs that IKDG ended up causing more problems than it solved.
Anon 1 wrote:
And not coming out until AFTER the Statute of Limitations expires.
Slick.
@ Headless Unicorn Guy:
I don’t know how to answer your question, but his books (and ones like it) – they have the same advice, which is that any and all interactions/ friendship between a man and woman will wind up in sex- is also preached at older singles by Christians (when we are bothered to be addressed at all).
It’s ridiculous advice. If you want a single woman to marry a single man, they will have to go on dates and get to know one another. We do not for the most part have arranged marriage in the USA. You have to meet and get used to being around the opposite gender.
The “no dating” type Christian advice does a lot of damage. You need to learn how to interact with the opposite gender, which means going on dates with them. Telling them to stay apart makes both gender even more anxious around the other, and afraid of each other
I’m also over the “be yoked to a believer” teachings, because as a 40+ year old Christian woman (who might be going agnostic) who has never married, there are no single Christian men my age out there to marry.
I am going to have to get married to an atheist or some other sort of Non Christian if I want marriage. I am done and through waiting on God to supply me with “Mr Christian Right.”
Single Christian men, if they are out there, do not go to Sunday morn. or wed eve. classes/services.
Back when I tried dating sites, the so called Christian single men had tasteless, crass s3xual comments/jokes on their profiles.
Either they are not actual Christians, or they are crass believers, but either way, secular or Christian, I will not even consider dating a guy who thinks it’s appropriate or classy to put crude jokes on his dating profile, or who shows too much interest in s3x up front.
Seriously, by your second or 3rd private chat or exchange of info (like on eHarmony dating site) some of these men already state that soon what their s3xual prefs are, etc. I don’t want to know that stuff, especially not only after only one or two exchanges with you.
Hannah wrote:
You may want to see my post to HUG right above this one.
I had always hoped to marry, I am a Christian, but am still not married over the age of 40. By this time, you no longer care about marrying another Christian, I know I’m not.
As long as the guy is not abusive or violent, I could not care less any more if the guy is a Non Christian.
There are no Christian men my age to date or marry.
I don’t have a choice. Dating sites didn’t work, either, not even so called “Christian dating sites.”
Daisy-
Some of the nicest, well mannered loving men are non believers.
Some of the most obnoxious, arrogant, rudest, un-loving men proclaim Christ.
If God brings you a non-believer, it may mean he is using you to draw him to Christ. God works in mysterious ways.