Musings on Current Topics About the Blogosphere

"I knew that danger lay ahead, of course; but I did not expect to meet it in our own Shire. Can't a hobbit walk from the Water to the River in peace?"
"But it is not your own Shire," said Gildor. "Others dwelt here before hobbits were; and others will dwell here again when hobbits are no more. The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out."
(The Lord of the Rings: Gildor to Frodo, Chapter 'Three is Company' link)

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The Glowing Eye Nebula: NASA

Today, I had so many topics to discuss, I put them all in one post. 

9 Marks: Contentedly submit or you will have a "meeting" with your pastor.

Trina sent us a link to "What should I do if I disagree with something my pastor said" on the 9 Marks website in their questions and answers section linkI found the "steps" quite interesting. Apparently you must ask the "right" type of people if you have a question. If you are not careful you can cause all sorts of problems. 

 Do not speak to someone who would be tempted to suspect the pastor, or would delight in disunity, or would be naively led astray by doubts.

… in rare cases, you might find that you disagree so strongly with something your pastor teaches, or that you disagree on a matter of such consequence, that it would hinder you from contentedly submitting to his leadership. In a case like this it may be best to quietly, lovingly find another church after discussing your intent to leave with the pastor.

Three things jumped out at me.

1. The first is the need to discuss your intent to leave with the pastor. In the case of 9 Marks, such an act might end very, very badly. Did you know that you must get permission to leave a 9 Marks church? We wrote about that here. Since 9 Marks also seems to have some qualms about "allowing" people to leave for a job opportunity,here, my guess is that such a discussion might not go well. Can we predict that church discipline may not be far behind if said pastor does not like how you look, smile, present, or smell? 

2. Then there is the whole "contentedly submitting" thing. This group loves to discuss submission. It appears that they have upped the ante. Now, it must be contented submission. I assume there will be further edicts such as: joyful submission, loving submission, gospel submission, Cross centered submission, etc.  Do you think that anyone asked if CJ Mahaney was "contentedly submitting" when he hid out with Dever. (That might get you called "wicked and unregenerate.")

3. However, I think an important item may be missing in this answer. I want to hear what you all think it is.  A hint is provided later in this post.

How to create or preventing creating more "Nones."

I spent years trying to figure out why people leave the faith. The people over at Ex-Christians link taught me two important lessons. About 60% of them mentioned the insistence on Young Earth Creationism and a general disregard for science by churches as important factors in their loss of faith. The vast majority also mentioned the inability of many pastors and churches to answer questions about Biblical discrepancies and difficult Bible verses as contributing to their loss of faith.

1. Create a None

Justin Taylor wrote an interesting article on how to deal with Biblical discrepancies in a sermon link. I was excited to hear what he might say. I was startled by his answer.

Thirdly, do not use up much sermon time dealing with such issues. You may have to do enough work on the problem that you are reasonably clear in your mind as to which solution is most plausible (or least implausible!), but that does not mean you necessarily have to drop all your information and reasoning into the minds of the members of the congregation. Most such questions are the sorts of things you can address adequately in thirty seconds. That you have done so will alert the handful of people in the congregation who are aware of the problem that you have done your homework, and if any of them are troubled (e.g. undergraduate students in biblical studies), they will then feel free to approach you afterward for further information and bibliography.

Thirty seconds! Good night! I recommend that churches do full sermons on how to approach Biblical difficulties and discrepancies along with having Sunday schools that deal with such issues. No wonder the "nones" are on the rise.

2. Prevent creating a none

There is a surprising development in the evangelical homeschooling community as outlined in this article in The Atlantic. It appears that some such parents are asking for materials that teach evolution. Until now, most of what was available was produced by Ken Ham's Answers in Genesis. However, the demand is changing and I believe that this change will better prepare kids to understand that a belief in a 6,000 year earth has nothing to do with salvation. And that may prevent a "none."

It's no secret that the majority of homeschooled children in America belong to evangelical Christian families. What's less known is that a growing number of their parents are dismayed by these textbooks.

Take Erinn Cameron Warton, an evangelical Christian who homeschools her children. Warton, a scientist, says she was horrified when she opened a homeschool science textbook and found a picture of Adam and Eve putting a saddle on a dinosaur. "I nearly choked," says the mother of three. "When researching homeschooling curricula, I found that the majority of Christian homeschool textbooks are written from this ridiculous perspective. Once I saw this, I vowed never to use them." Instead, Warton has pulled together a curriculum inspired partly by homeschool pioneer Susan Wise Bauer and partly by the Waldorf holistic educational movement.

Jack Schapp is sent to prison.

TWW wrote an article on the exploits on FBC Hammond (IFB) mega-church pastor Jack Schapp here. Today, the judge sentenced Schapp to 12 years in jail which was 2 years more than the prosecutor requested. You can read about it at this link.

Tim Challies writes a great post, really.

Challies is doing a series on The History of Christianity in 25 Objects. Today he focused on the Rylands Library Papyrus P52 link. Be sure to visit the post to see a picture of the papyrus and read the translation. On occasion, I can be pleasant.

Most current scholars believe it was written between 125 and 150 A.D., making it the oldest surviving copy of any portion of the New Testament. This little scrap of papyrus is our oldest historical link to the New Testament Scriptures. It represents the thousands of manuscripts and fragments of manuscripts that have survived the centuries.

P52 contains words from the account of Jesus’ trial before Pilate, John 18:31-33 on the front and John 18:37-38 on the back.

Frank Viola admits he made a mistake on the proper response to pedophile incidents in the church.

Now this admission, I believe, is a rare occurrence in the church. On Monday, we discussed the issue of slander, Matthew 18, and how it applies to handling a potential pedophile  within a church setting link. We disagreed that pastors should first determine whether or not a pedophile report is accurate. Apparently, several of our readers visited the Viola's blog to discuss the matter. "Serving in Japan" comments at this blog. I commend Viola for his openness to disagreement. He did something that the pastor at 9 Marks did NOT do. (Hint: Clue to previously mentioned question).

TWW is giving Frank Viola a standing ovation. *Applause*. However, we still disagree with the definition of slander. Please go over to this link to read this wonderful give and take.

​UPDATE: This morning “Serving in Japan” made a good point about the training needed to investigate such cases. On hindsight, I think he is right. In that particular case I referred to, the elders should have called in the authorities to at least investigate. You can see my reply to him below.

A beautiful mistake

Last week, one of our readers' daughters miscarried her baby at 16 weeks. Another reader, whom I shall call Mary, had experienced her own miscarriage and wanted to reach out to her. I helped them to exchange email addresses. However, when Mary emailed the other reader, she wrote the email address incorrectly. It was received, by a man in Japan. He wrote back to her. Here is that email with names changed. (Told with his exact words). Get your tissues ready.

Dear Mary-san,

I'm Takahiro Hayoshi living in Japan. I got your email but it was sent to wrong address.

But, Please accept my apologies to read and reply such a personal mail.
4 years ago, I and my wife had a stillborn baby and same experience. My family had sorrow same as yours in that time.

My family pray for you, the stillborn baby and your family. We wish you and your family will recover from the sorrow.

Sincerely yours,
Takahiro Hayoshi

Wow!

Lydia's Corner: Judges 6:1-40 Luke 22:54-23:12 Psalm 95:1-96:13 Proverbs 14:5-6

Comments

Musings on Current Topics About the Blogosphere — 135 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Little does this humble man in Japan know that he probably has hundreds of people in tears after reading his compassionate words. So many people say you cannot have relationships and connect via the internet. This shows the beauty and power of connecting with someone – a real person, with real feelings, sorrows, pain, and the ability to reach out and offer support and comfort. That is what happens here, on my blog and so many other places. Thanks so much for sharing this, Dee. It touched my heart – wow.


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    The “thirty seconds” was very dismissive, but it was the smirking “undergraduate students in biblical studies” that pushed it over the edge for me. He’s not really giving his audience the benefit of the doubt if he thinks only earnest, would-be pastors are troubled by the Bible!


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    An interesting and at times uplifting selection of articles. Thanks Dee and Deb!


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    I applaud Frank Viola. He showed wisdom and humility when he admitted his error. I will be checking his site at Patheos as time allows. I enjoyed his early writings and hope to be able to say the same of his more recent work.


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    “Most such questions are the sorts of things you can address adequately in thirty seconds.”

    Feed them sound bytes. This will teach to “think critically.” ?!?!?!?!

    “It appears that some such parents are asking for materials that teach evolution. Until now, most of what was available was produced by Ken Ham’s Answers in Genesis.”

    They’re asking because such materials are still largely unavailable. (In fact, I was recently looking for some myself to see if I could retake high school biology on my own time since I used Apologia Biology, which has a whole chapter devoted to debunking evolution but obviously no in-depth explanation of the theory.) So far the only non-creationist science curriculum that seems to be available is the one(s) used in the public school, which not all homeschooling parents want to use.

    Maybe I would do better to just read some books. I’ve never done well with picture-based “traditional” textbooks, anyway…


  6. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    That email – wow. [sniffs a bit]

    As for only needing 30 seconds being enough for difficult topics, I had to stifle a guffaw or two. Really, I *don’t* like his overall attitude, though the sheer willful naivete of the time limit on answering is pretty silly. Has he gone to college/grad school/*anywhere* that “difficult” questions are actually discussed?!


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    What a precious email from that man in Japan!


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I thought Viola’s comment you linked to was confusing. He put a pedophile out of the church? Did he call the authorities or just let him go after going to him privately? Sounds dangerous to me. I am still not understanding his view of gossip and why he thinks that those who disagree with him “don’t believe the NT”?.

    But at least he interacts! That is something!


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    Dee,

    Justin Taylor recommends handling Bible discrepancies ‘on the fly’. 😉 You should write about that experience with a former pastor sometime.


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    TWW wrote an article on the exploits on FBC Hammond (IFB) mega-church pastor Jack Schapp here. Today, the judge sentenced Schapp to 12 years in jail which was 2 years more than the prosecutor requested. You can read about it at this link.

    Note which Schaap sermon video they linked to in the article — the infamous Polishing a Shaft.


  11. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Since 9 Marks also seems to have some qualms about “allowing” people to leave for a job opportunity, here

    Please tell me that is a joke? Who micro- manages every aspect of a person’s life like that? They sound more like a cult than Christians.

    Christ came to set people free, not put more rules and bondage on them.


  12. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I hope I don’t annoy anyone when I sometimes bring up singleness, but how the church treats singles really bothers me 🙂

    Original post said,

    2. Then there is the whole “contentedly submitting” thing. This group loves to discuss submission. It appears that they have upped the ante. Now, it must be contented submission. I assume there will be further edicts such as: joyful submission, loving submission, gospel submission, Cross centered submission, etc.

    Unmarried Christians who want to get married get that all the time in regards to singleness. ALL.THE. TIME. (Along with a few other cliches.)

    If single Christians got a nickel every time we are told, “Be content in your singleness, and that is when God will provide you with a spouse,” we would be more wealthy than all the mega-church and tele-evangelist preachers put together.


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    Original post,

    About 60% of them mentioned the insistence on Young Earth Creationism and a general disregard for science by churches as important factors in their loss of faith. The vast majority also mentioned the inability of many pastors and churches to answer questions about Biblical discrepancies and difficult Bible verses as contributing to their loss of faith.

    That’s interesting.

    I’ve been heading towards agnosticism lately myself. But not for any of those reasons.

    I was always been fairly bored by science, so I never got wrapped up or concerned over evolution v. Creationism.

    During my teens and 20s, I read lots of apologetic literature, so none of the atheist attacks I came across took me by surprise (and I didn’t find their arguments against the faith convincing).

    I also delved deeply into the history of the Bible to debate AV- 1611- Only people, so attacks such as “The Bible contains errors,” “the Bible was written by men,” “we don’t have the originals,” etc, did not sway me (they’re usually based on ignorance).

    What gets me is…

    1. the good old fashioned “Problem of Evil,”

    2. God does not seem to answer prayers or even listen to them,

    3. along with Christians who I personally met (or chatted with online) who more often than not failed to live up consistently (I never expected perfection) to the Bible’s teachings on compassion and sympathy for hurting people.

    Instead of getting love, encouragement, and compassion at times you are going through a trial, you are more apt to get judgement, condemnation, or vapid religious platitudes from most Christians.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I hope I don’t annoy anyone when I sometimes bring up singleness, but how the church treats singles really bothers me

    It should bother you and all of us. It is ridiculous. The pink and blue Gospel they have preached for 30 years has made the single issue a million times worse. It should not even be an issue in the Body of Christ!


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    Re: Jack Schaap. I think the sentencing memorandum provided by the prosecution carried a lot of weight in determining how many years he’ll be behind bars. It’s really an eye-opener! Between that and the victim impact statement, it really didn’t matter how many church members wrote to say what a good man Schaap was or how much he had done for the community. There would be no leniency.


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    Original post:

    Jack Schapp is sent to prison.

    Schapp makes my skin crawl.

    Schapp’s love letters to the teen girl were transcribed and put online. I don’t know what’s worse, a grown man taking advantage of a teen girl, or a grown man doing that plus trying to justify it to her by couching it in theological terms and reasoning.

    (He kept saying things in his letters to her like he was close to her because he hoped she would know Christ more or better, etc. *gag*)

    That “polishing the shaft” video of his is crass and disgusting – and he’s a married preacher!

    Yet most preachers or conservative Christianity continue to aim their “sexual purity lectures” at unmarried Christians such as myself. I’m not the one having affairs with teen girls and miming sexual activity on church stages in videos.


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    P.S. Also about Schapp.
    *CREEPY IRONY ALERT*

    Schapp wrote a dating advice book, and it’s for sale online:

    “Dating with a Purpose by Jack Schaap (1994)”

    The irony is rivaled only by this:

    “Touched: The Jerry Sandusky Story, by Jerry Sandusky (Jan 1, 2001)”

    After visiting the book store site, I see that Schapp also wrote a book called “12 Myths of Marriage” that is still in print and for sale online.

    Oh yeah, I see myself taking dating and marriage advice from a guy who preys on teen-aged girls and takes advantage of them.

    In a review someone left of the book (I can’t tell if they are serious or being sarcastic), they say,

    You must read Chapter Four: The Principles of Dress. The simple fact is that wearing slacks [for women] was an abomination, and if I continued to do so, God would not reward me with a mate.
    I was also surprised to find that my dark eyeshadow was keeping me from finding my man!

    That is pretty typical of advice unmarried Christians get about dating (that is, typical as in pathetic and sexist).

    We single Christian women are regularly advised that we shouldn’t rely on our looks to get a man, but…

    These same authors will tell us to get a spouse, we must pay attention to our looks (use make-up, stay skinny, short hair is not good, etc), because men are “visual” and they all want a Christian women who looks like sexy, really skinny, Hollywood movie starlet.

    That these “Christian” authors cannot spot the contradiction in their own dating/marriage advice is startling.


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    @ Daisy:

    Also, and since this sort of advice is prevalent among gender complementarians, who also harp that they are “biblcal,” and they insist egalitarians carry secular cultural ideas into the Scriptures…

    Where in the Bible does it say God designed all men to be ‘visual’ (which is their go-to excuse as to why it’s okay for men to look slobby but women have to look like fashion models constantly), or, where does the Bible say that it’s okay for Christian men to read American beauty cultural ideas into who they choose as a wife?

    The Bible does not say that God requires American Christian women to look like movie star Angelina Jolie (or be skinny, have long hair, etc) to get a spouse.

    Sounds to me like they are taking what might be a stereotypical American male cultural preference about a woman’s looks and adding it on to any thing the Bible says about marriage.


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    Anon1

    He said that now he would call the police to sort it out.


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    Daisy wrote:

    I hope I don’t annoy anyone when I sometimes bring up singleness, but how the church treats singles really bothers me
    Original post said,
    2. Then there is the whole “contentedly submitting” thing … If single Christians got a nickel every time we are told, “Be content in your singleness, and that is when God will provide you with a spouse,” we would be more wealthy than all the mega-church and tele-evangelist preachers put together.

    Daisy, I hear you! I’ve had several friends who’ve either been single till 40’s or 50’s and some remained single. It’s hard. Singles don’t get much of a voice and get overlooked as if they aren’t complete. And, yes, the quick pat answers I’m sure are nauseating. While I can’t relate to singleness, I can relate to not having a voice, being looked at as if I were a sub-human for being a woman; but the worst of all is when people think your unmet desires and longings should be met with a stiff upper lip … when sometimes, the very people telling you to “man-up” also complain about their painful unmet desires and longings in another area. Just wanted to say that, cause I know it can be so hard.


  21. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I just saw the letter from Takahiro Hayoshi. How very kind of him to reply.


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    It should bother you and all of us. It is ridiculous. The pink and blue Gospel they have preached for 30 years has made the single issue a million times worse. It should not even be an issue in the Body of Christ!

    I don’t mean to be a pest or turn every thread into a discussion about it.

    This (and a few other issues) are never, or under- acknowledged, by American Christianity, and that bugs me.

    About the only time the singleness issue is addressed is usually by YRR / SBCers, or “Focus on the Family,” but they don’t give a fig for older (age 30 and older) singles (particularly the never married ones), and they insult the young 20-something single males about being single.


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    The letter from Mr. Hyoshi made me tear up. Beautiful!

    The response from Viola made me SHOUT! That is amazing and feels like salve on a wound for so many!


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    IMO “Bible discrepancies” should be discussed in a lecture or a Bible study. A sermon has more important objectives than defending the content of scripture. It must first present it clearly and accurately. It does not have to give all the answers. Some of the best sermons I’ve heard gave me more questions. Some even bothered me enough to look into it myself. God doesn’t need us to make excuses for him. Sometimes the trite answers we give just dumb the book down and turn the most exciting text in history full of mystery and wonder into something as dull as a dictionary.


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    @ Tikatu:
    I think his sentence was rather lenient. He should never see the light of day again.


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    @ Daisy: Welcome to Discipleship Movement 2.0 …

    Signed,
    survivor of the original


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    @ Miguel: ??? Seriously, Miguel – if the content of Scripture can’t be addressed in a sermon…

    signed,
    survivor of church where content was never questioned


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    @ Miguel:

    …turn the most exciting text in history full of mystery and wonder into something as dull as a dictionary.

    Well… parts of it literally are dull; all those genealogies and whatnot.

    though I think reading the dictionary is fun, so there you go.


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    I was a none for a long time. The church I grew up in taught things that I couldn’t believe no matter how much I wanted to, simply because they did not seem to be true. I desperately wanted to resolve all the inconsistencies, but questioning, seeking truth, and learning other perspectives were discouraged.

    At the time I was not mature enough, to use C.S. Lewis’ words, to throw away the shell and keep the kernel. I threw away the whole nut.

    That seemed easier. Now I think it was a mistake. But I understand why people leave the faith. It’s not always a question of rejecting orthodox Christian beliefs or traditional Christian morality. Some churches try to pressure you into abandoning your good sense or your conscience to conform to their iffy doctrine or their stifling culture. Sometimes people get so burned out on religion that they can’t tell what they believe anymore, so they have to leave to even figure it out.

    I don’t think it has to be that way. I understand the church needing to stick to principles and to high moral standards. And I understand (finally) the importance of being faithful even when we sometimes don’t fully understand. But seeking God and seeking truth should not be diametrically opposed. Something’s wrong when they are.


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    @ Arce:

    Yes, I agree. I think 12 years was the minimum and that was all he got. I wish they could give a sentence for the spiritual abuse as well.


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    @ numo:
    I thought that 9Marks junk sounded like a regurgitation of the Shepherding Movement. I can’t believe it’s back.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat: My take is that it’s never really disappeared – I encountered it during the 80s and 90s, though definitely in “rebranded” versions.


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat: 9Marks seemed ultra-controlling *before* this latest piece. Now it just sounds like they stocked up on bound sets of “new Wine” magazine (published by the Fort Lauderdale Five).


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    Julie Anne wrote:

    This shows the beauty and power of connecting with someone – a real person, with real feelings, sorrows, pain, and the ability to reach out and offer support and comfort. That is what happens here, on my blog and so many other places.

    Yes. A thousand times, yes. I have only been a part of the blogging world for a few months, but the connections, healing and support have been overwhelming and beautiful.


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    @ numo:

    I’m sorry to hear that.

    I don’t have a lot of experience with that in a church setting, but at one position I had for a few years, one of my bosses was an abusive person, and she micro managed me.

    What made the micro managing even worse is that she got the position via nepotism; we worked in a technical field, and she knew nothing about it. (Her education and experience were in a totally unrelated field.)


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    Daisy wrote:

    I hope I don’t annoy anyone when I sometimes bring up singleness, but how the church treats singles really bothers me

    I love reading your comments, Daisy. How singles are sometimes treated is the very reason why I am a little bit nervous about my plan to visit a local Nazarene church soon… The last place I visited, a woman told me right away that as an unmarried, childless female, there was no place for me at her church and that I should go somewhere else. Before that, at a mega, a teacher took it upon herself to try and “help” me find a husband…etc. I really hope my singleness will not be an issue this time! Only one way to find out…


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    Hey all
    Deb and I are traveling to meet a reader who lives most of the year in Antarctica at the McMurdo Station. We will be out of pocket until mid-afternoon.


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    @ Miguel:
    I think you can do both. You have 52 weeks a year to proclaim God’s truths. Looking at the discrepancies can be a interesting as well as providing a reason for the hope that we have. I know, I have seen it done in several churches.


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    “Little does this humble man in Japan know that he probably has hundreds of people in tears after reading his compassionate words. So many people say you cannot have relationships and connect via the internet. This shows the beauty and power of connecting with someone – a real person, with real feelings, sorrows, pain, and the ability to reach out and offer support and comfort. That is what happens here, on my blog and so many other places. Thanks so much for sharing this, Dee. It touched my heart – wow.

    Wow is right… Last night it crossed my mind that I have found some kindred spirits in Christ via the internet. That warmed my heart…. then that other voice spoke up: these people are strangers, you are alone.

    However, His Spirit is communicating through your blogs touching my wounds with tenderness & grace. I am going to stay with the the comforting thought & kick the other one to the curb. I am thankful for your voices!!!


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    Gail wrote:

    “Little does this humble man in Japan know that he probably has hundreds of people in tears after reading his compassionate words. So many people say you cannot have relationships and connect via the internet. This shows the beauty and power of connecting with someone – a real person, with real feelings, sorrows, pain, and the ability to reach out and offer support and comfort. That is what happens here, on my blog and so many other places. Thanks so much for sharing this, Dee. It touched my heart – wow.
    Wow is right… Last night it crossed my mind that I have found some kindred spirits in Christ via the internet. That warmed my heart…. then that other voice spoke up: these people are strangers, you are alone.
    However, His Spirit is communicating through your blogs touching my wounds with tenderness & grace. I am going to stay with the the comforting thought & kick the other one to the curb. I am thankful for your voices!!!


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    Please edit! I was trying to put Julie’s comment in quotes, sorry for double posting.


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    Okay, that letter from the father in Japan…. My eyes are sweating!


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    “Churches’ governing documents (constitution, by-laws) should reflect the fact that individual members do not have the unilateral right to terminate their membership.”

    Jeebuz! ‘You can’t leave a church until we tell you’ What’s wrong with these wack-jobs? We had this evil in the Middle Ages with the Roman Catholic Church – don’t they learn anything? Or is being allowed to burn heretics next on their list?

    This whole authoritarian crusade of the neo-Cals is a thinly veiled call for the Nazification of Christianity.


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    Adding this to the various topics, another child sex abuse story with SGM connections. http://m.clickorlando.com/news/Woman-28-accused-of-making-child-pornography/-/16721250/19342176/-/58rfhj/-/index.html

    The perpetrator is a woman in this case and was part of an SGM church for many years. Very, very sad. And I wonder very much is this young lady was a victim herself or if her activities had been known and covered up.


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    It makes all the difference *what* someone is disagreeing with his pastor about. If you can’t stand his choice of ties (ridiculous example, I know), you can walk away silently, without making waves. But when he’s authoritarian and going way beyond the Biblical bounds, when he wants to rule your family or teaches preposterous things… it’s a a different story. I would think an honest, humble pastor would be glad to say from the pulpit something like, ‘If you ever hear me teach something that you see is not in the Bible, something that is actually contrary to it, please feel free to pull my sleeve and correct me! You have every right to, as I’m not above anyone else.”


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    @ dee:
    Well, I suppose if you come from a tradition of 45 minute + sermons, you have plenty of time to spend on it. But IMO, there is just so much there to be explored, to even open that pandora’s box at the pulpit can potentially raise more questions faster than you can answer them. To attempt to could transform the sermon into an apologetics lecture. I feel these topics are more effectively addressed in a more interactive setting, with more dialogue than monologue. Too often monologues wind up answering the questions nobody is asking. When the skeptic has the option of raising his hand and voicing his suspicions, they can be addressed more directly. You may have 52 weeks a year, but I don’t think that means only 30 of them need to be sermons and the rest can be lectures. If the pulpit time is the only Bible teaching that happens in your church, you may have bigger problems than textual discrepancies to address.
    @ numo:
    Numo, I’m not saying don’t address the content. I’m saying get directly to the content, and leave the textual scholarship, greek etymology, and archaeological research in the study. I’m not saying the laity are too dumb for that. Don’t you think they deserve the right to challenge assertions in that area? Hard to do that in the middle of a service. IMO, the preacher has < 25 minutes. Bring out the deeper truths and implications of the story, find its place in the grand narrative, show how the book reads us, and what is Jesus giving to us. Harmonize the death of Judas or genealogical variants in a setting where people don't have to accept only one answer to difficult questions.


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    JeffT wrote:

    Jeebuz! ‘You can’t leave a church until we tell you’ What’s wrong with these wack-jobs? We had this evil in the Middle Ages with the Roman Catholic Church – don’t they learn anything? Or is being allowed to burn heretics next on their list?

    Burning heretics (and apostates) has to wait until Reconstructionists and Dominionists finally take over and establish the Theocratic Republic of Gilead. After which, “GOD HATH WILLED IT!”


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    Daisy wrote:

    It’s not just children who are sexually abused and exploited by church members, sometimes vulnerable adult women are as well.

    1) Rank Hath It’s Privileges (including sexual ones)

    2) In herd animals, the Alpha Male always tries to claim as many of the females as possible for his harem.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Where in the Bible does it say God designed all men to be ‘visual’ (which is their go-to excuse as to why it’s okay for men to look slobby but women have to look like fashion models constantly), or, where does the Bible say that it’s okay for Christian men to read American beauty cultural ideas into who they choose as a wife?

    All humans are “visual”. All primates are sight-oriented; vision is our primary sense.

    The Bible does not say that God requires American Christian women to look like movie star Angelina Jolie (or be skinny, have long hair, etc) to get a spouse.

    You forgot to include The BIG Boobs.


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    Daisy wrote:

    If single Christians got a nickel every time we are told, “Be content in your singleness, and that is when God will provide you with a spouse,” we would be more wealthy than all the mega-church and tele-evangelist preachers put together.

    Note that this Godly Advice(TM) always comes from MARRIED Christians, especially those who got married at 18.

    “I GOT MINE,
    I GOT MINE,
    SUCKS TO BE YOU!”


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    @ Miguel:
    Miguel, I think the deeper issue is the nature of the sermons that Taylor’s crowd typically produces. It usually is a Bible study. They often are 45 minutes (because, you know, longer is better) and are technical, intellectual, and theoretical. In my church, the Bible Study hour (i.e. Sunday School) and Sermon are based on the same texts, so we cover discrepancies in Bible Study where we can have a conversation, but the sermon, being a “speaking at” rather than “speaking with” situation is generally reserved for exhortation.


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    @ John: Yep!


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    @ numo:

    Actually, I think the content IS what should be addressed and original language and cultural significance. Most Sunday morning sermons (as they have come to be known) have become a time of preaching and evangelizing to the lost. I want to come together as THE CHURCH to worship, pray, edify one another. Instead, I am increasingly feeling like I am at an open air meeting where someone has gathered a crowd to share the Good News and the crowds need for a Savior (not a bad thing), which is not the purpose of the Church gathered. But, then again, may I’m missing something about the Church.


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    sMonica wrote:

    I would think an honest, humble pastor would be glad to say from the pulpit something like, ‘If you ever hear me teach something that you see is not in the Bible, something that is actually contrary to it, please feel free to pull my sleeve and correct me! You have every right to, as I’m not above anyone else.”

    Actually, it’s very interesting that you just said this becuase it made me recall something very VERY interesting. Mark Dever has often said this, basically, that if you ever find him teaching something extrabiblical, fire him. Find another pastor. Confront him, etc… He has said that countless times. But if we read that article that I sent to Dee/Deb from 9Marks site, and look at a lot of the other actions from 9Marks churches, we wouldn’t become to believe that he really is being sincere, could we?


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    @ Bridget:

    Oops, I need to keep reading this thread. Seems the discussion has progressed.


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    @ John:

    This crowd is not always how you describe Taylor’s crowd. What do you think happens when someone preaches on three verses for 40 minutes? That is a long time for someone to overlay the text with their perspective what those verses mean, as opposed to digging into the words, culture, and context and allowing the Holy Spirit to apply the life. Too many times, the “preacher” wants to tell us what the application “should be” in out lives. As if we are all in need of the exact same thing at that time. This may be true occasionally, but not normally.


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    Miguel wrote:

    to even open that pandora’s box at the pulpit can potentially raise more questions faster than you can answer them.

    The sermon time is when I have the most questions. Which is why I tire of hearing how sermons are the most important event of the week or the focus on that time. All I learn about is the pastors veiw of interpretation. I would love to be able to ask questions.

    I think the more folks study on their own, the less they are going to want to go somewhere, sit and listen to a sermon with no interaction. We can do that at home on the internet.


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    Bridget wrote:

    Actually, I think the content IS what should be addressed and original language and cultural significance. Most Sunday morning sermons (as they have come to be known) have become a time of preaching and evangelizing to the lost. I want to come together as THE CHURCH to worship, pray, edify one another. Instead, I am increasingly feeling like I am at an open air meeting where someone has gathered a crowd to share the Good News and the crowds need for a Savior (not a bad thing), which is not the purpose of the Church gathered

    This is probably a result of Revivalism and its Gospel of Personal Salvation and ONLY Personal Salvation. My wiritng partner tells me of graying and dying churches in his area where putting on great Altar Call Revivals where only the church members attend; in some of these churches, nobody knows anybody outside of church — no outside friends or contacts whatsoever. Yet they import guest Evangelists at great expense to preach Salvation to the Lost and the Altar Call. When all you have is a hammer…


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    BeenThereDoneThat wrote:

    I thought that 9Marks junk sounded like a regurgitation of the Shepherding Movement. I can’t believe it’s back.

    Why would Pastor-Dictators who are control freaks NOT revive a control freak’s wet dream?


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy: I find it ironic… because I come from a background that’s so far off from this kind of revival/altar call mentality.

    I was completely baffled by altar calls, etc. when I 1st encountered them as a teenager – and in many ways, I still am baffled, decades on.

    (Especially given


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    @ numo: Sorry for sentence fragment there!


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    Fendrel wrote:

    it is so hard to keep up with all the ‘goodness’ pouring out of mega churches these days…another one, this time in OK, waits weeks before reports molestation of 13 yo girl…
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/03/22/family-members-tulsa-megachurch-leader-plead-no-contest-to-misdemeanor-in-sex/

    I cannot help but feel as if this is the great falling away from the faith that was predicted in the Scriptures. Why are pastors and church workers so afraid to report abuse to the proper authorities? Perhaps we need a thread on that topic.


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    @ Trina:
    Well, it would not be enough to say it, you’d have to mean it too. 🙂


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    I come from the altar call brigade, and believe there is always a time and place for them.

    And as for the inconsistencies in the Bible–and they do exist–I’ve learned from a very good RCC teacher to read the scripture liturgically and realize I don’t have the whole story of what was being done or thought at the time of the writing.

    Doing that–seeing scripture as liturgy and song expressing the truth rather than a scientific textbook led me back to my faith after a long time away.


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    dj pomegranate wrote:

    The “thirty seconds” was very dismissive, but it was the smirking “undergraduate students in biblical studies” that pushed it over the edge for me. He’s not really giving his audience the benefit of the doubt if he thinks only earnest, would-be pastors are troubled by the Bible!

    That comment rubbed me the wrong way as well. What do bib. studies undergrads have to do with anything?


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    The sermon time is when I have the most questions. Which is why I tire of hearing how sermons are the most important event of the week or the focus on that time. All I learn about is the pastors veiw of interpretation. I would love to be able to ask questions.
    I think the more folks study on their own, the less they are going to want to go somewhere, sit and listen to a sermon with no interaction. We can do that at home on the internet.

    In the world of the Old Testament, the idea was that people would constantly be meditating on Scripture (see Deut. 6:1-12). Religious gatherings were less homily-based and more discussion-based. This discussion-based model has survived (in modified form) in traditional Jewish study methods. If you read the Talmud, it is essentially a record of different people asking questions about considering answers (although often no definitive answer is given!). Also, if you ever have the chance to visit a yeshiva (a Jewish religious school), you can enter a classroom and see the students in small groups with their Bibles and commentaries open, discussing amongst themselves (often quite passionately) the different views on a particular passage.

    For whatever reason(s), most modern, Western Christians have switched from this traditional, discussion-based format to a lecture-based format, where the lecturer (pastor) delivers his content (primarily facts, or specific pieces of data) which the audience is required to assimilate. It just so happens that, for most Christians, Sundays are seen as the main time for them to hear/read Scripture, and so discussion is relegated to the back burner.


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    numo wrote:

    Well… parts of it literally are dull; all those genealogies and whatnot.

    I totally hear where you’re coming from. As a specialist in the Old Testament, however, it makes me sad to hear this! If more pastors were properly trained in OT studies, perhaps they could more clearly communicate the excitement and significance of the genealogies. (I know how nerdy that sounds . . . but trust me, they are exciting!)


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    This is actually no surprise to me. I went to school with Justin Taylor and this smugness comes across all the time in his writing. It is actually a ver unfortunate thing because he used to be a very gentle and nice guy. I just hope that is still there. The dismissive nature of who is in the church audience shows you what the typical reformed leader thinks of the body of Christ. He can respond with some theological gymnastics, but the reality is Justin Taylor shows n this post at least that he views preachers, himself, and other leaders as more spiritually mature and able to deal with difficult things than the “average” Christian. This is maddening. I am reformed, but the guys speaking forth are not often vetted. Justn is not a public speaker, not a preacher, but a guy who has a blog and a position at Crossway. Anyway, his tone and arrogance in the post is not unusual of his writing style. That being said, it would be great if his humility came through more. From what I understand he has a good heart just some poor people skills at times.


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    I’m going to take a guess Dee that what was missing from that (stupid) article from 9 Marks is any offer by the Pastor to meet with the person from the congregation to talk about the problem…So you contentedly submit or leave the church…weird. It is all one way…my way or the highway…


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    Beaker
    Great guess. I was thinking that the article left no opening for the pastor being in error and needing to listen to the dissenter.@ Beakerj:


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    Observing
    Do you think he really believes one can blow off Biblical discrepancies in 30 seconds?@ Observing Modern Day Gnostics:


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    I wish he could spend some time over at Ex Christians and see what some of those people think about Biblical discrepancies. It has caused some to lose faith.@ Mr.H:


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    @ John:
    Can you not combine exhortation with some teaching on discrepancies? I have been in churches where they do that.

    One can exhort the members to share the Scriptures but it might be nice to prepare them to deal with the issues surrounding the Scriptures. Today’s atheists seem to know more about the difficult passages than some Christians.


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    Anon 1

    Much agreement when you write…
    “The sermon time is when I have the most questions. Which is why I tire of hearing how sermons are the most important event of the week or the focus on that time.”

    Here is how the Ana-Baptists handled that problem – And it’s a killer.

    This is Info from the book – The Secret of the Strength – About Mennonites.
    An interesting read – Shows the beginnings, their strengthes and where, in the end, they blew it.
    Free PDF download off the internet. – http://www.gw.org/Sos/Sos.pdf

    Menno, as a Catholic Priest, left “The system,” because Rome believed and acted as…
    “the church stands between God and man”

    Yup – I agree with Menno here. But I now call it “Todays Religious System.”
    Because, that is NOT “the Church of God” in the Bible. The body of Christ.

    Menno, and the first Anabaptists believed in….
    “man’s freedom of choice and his duty *to obey the voice of Christ* within him.”

    Another Ana-Baptist said…
    “He who has NOT learned what he knows from God,
    but from men, has a faith that cannot stand.”

    And I know the Ana-Baptists must have been doing something right. Because – And this one is the killer – I mean this got the Ana-Baptist persecuted and killed by both Catholics and the Protestant Re-formers. Persecuted and killed – By Catholics, By Calvin and Calvinists, By Luther and Lutherans… My…My… Tsk…Tsk…

    Here is what got them in trouble.
    “The Anabaptists took literally the words of Paul in 1 Cor. 14:30-31: “And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged.” They called this the “sitter’s right” and calmly implied that they, when moved by inner conviction, had as great a right to speak and to act as any pastor, any priest, any reformer or bishop or pope. This audacity, this “Sitzrecht from the pit of hell,” Martin Luther and his friends believed, could be dealt with only by fire, water, and the sword.”

    Yup – The Ana-Baptists believed every believer has the right to speak in a meeting.
    What a concept… Sounds kinda like the internet – and this blog…
    But – You do NOT find that in “Todays Religious System.”

    Wow!!! – Every believer has the – “right to speak and to act as any pastor,
    any priest, any reformer or bishop or pope.”

    Have you ever tried telling a “Senior Pastor” or any “Pastor/Leader/Reverend” being paid by a “501 (c) 3, Non-Profit. Tax $ Deductible, Religious $ Corporation; That ALL believers have the “right to speak and to act as any pastor, any priest, any reformer or bishop or pope?”

    I double dare you… 😉


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    Amos, The ironies never cease. As the Calvinist resurgence reaches it’s climax, The Ana Baptist tradition (whatever that is as they were not monolithic) is coming back in style or gaining interest. A backlash to the YRR? I think so. I think when the YRR folks keep appealing to history (creeds, confessions, Institutes, etc) for understanding Christianity, people go looking and instead of Calvin, they start liking those Ana Baptists who put their lives on the line to defy Calvin’s or Zwingli’s state church. :o)


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    A. Amos Love wrote:

    Anon 1
    Yup – The Ana-Baptists believed every believer has the right to speak in a meeting.
    What a concept…

    What a concept indeed. Sounds almost like all believers are priests! 🙂

    Have you read “The Reformers and Their Stepchildren”? Highly recommended! http://www.amazon.com/Reformers-Their-Stepchildren-Dissent-Nonconformity/dp/1579789358/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1363991562&sr=1-1&keywords=1579789358


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    Dabide, It is one of my favorite books. I even had the footnotes translated!

    Did you know the research for it was funded by the Calvin Foundation?


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    Mr.H wrote:

    I totally hear where you’re coming from. As a specialist in the Old Testament, however, it makes me sad to hear this! If more pastors were properly trained in OT studies, perhaps they could more clearly communicate the excitement and significance of the genealogies. (I know how nerdy that sounds . . . but trust me, they are exciting!)

    Esp the ones that include women in the line of Christ. Now, that is exciting.


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    Dabide

    I have a quick question that would like to ask you offline. Should I send it to the email address attached to this comment?


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    @ dee:
    dee wrote:

    Dabide
    I have a quick question that would like to ask you offline. Should I send it to the email address attached to this comment?

    Yes, that’s my address. 🙂


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    dee wrote:

    Beaker
    Great guess. I was thinking that the article left no opening for the pastor being in error and needing to listen to the dissenter.@ Beakerj:

    Yeah, I guess that’s what I meant by ‘the problem’, whose is it really? Also, where is the love? Maybe that’s not a word they know.


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    @ Anon 1:
    How strange – not – I’m interested in the anabaptists too…they are a bit of an antidote to all that arrogance & aggression…

    P.S. Anon1, am always loving your work here. Are you a fellow Usurpress? If I can dare to call myself by your magical term?


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    @ Mr.H: Hey,I know that they *can* be interesting, but I’m not the sort who goes (in general) for genealogy/genealogical studies.


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    Beakerj wrote:

    @ Anon 1:
    How strange – not – I’m interested in the anabaptists too…they are a bit of an antidote to all that arrogance & aggression…

    P.S. Anon1, am always loving your work here. Are you a fellow Usurpress? If I can dare to call myself by your magical term?

    Thank you! I think I am a bit intense but my excuse is I live at ground zero and am surrounded by the YRR know it alls who think I am a heretical Pelagian/open theist egalitarian usurper. It it were the 1500’s I would be ash. (Btw: I had to look all those up as I was accused of being things I have never heard of!)

    I have been a Usurpress for many years and welcome more Usurpresses. As you can imagine, in my neck of the Christendom woods, there are mostly doormats who think such is piety.


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    @ Beakerj: but… even though that is true *on paper,* it’s not necessarily true in practice, at least, not now.

    I grew up in – and currently live in – an area with a wide range of Anabaptist churches, from Old Order Amish and Mennonites to “modern” Mennonites, church of the Brethren, etc.

    For the most part, there are extremely rigid views of gender and gender roles. I know a local man who left the Church of the Brethren partly due to that (because he hated the way that the women were treated).

    I think the same – or similar – can be found in the history of various denoms that appear to be quite open and egalitarian on paper; the Quakers are another good example. I found out quite a bit that really surprised me – and not in a good way at all – re. Philadelphia-area Quaker meetings while reading a bio. of the abolitionist Grimké sisters, who moved from S. Carolina to PA in hopes that they would have greater freedom to speak and publish. They were both good churchgoers and had very idealistic notions about the Quakers – which were, sadly, dashed in pieces when they were under the scrutiny of the local Meeting. (Gender roles had/have a great deal to do with it; so did social expectations re. how women should speak when in Meeting – they weren’t supposed to be nervous and tentative in speaking publicly during Meeting, but they *were* supposed to avoid public speaking *outside* the Meeting. Now… local women with some social standing who belonged to a given Meeting could get away with a lot, but outsiders like the Grimkés – not so much. *Especially* if they had chosen to marry members of the local Meeting(s); married women were supposed to stick to the home and charity work, which the Quakers were great at, but publishing ans peaking and being “learned” in general was not seen as something fitting.)

    I kind of hat to speak about the gender roles – and partriarchal culture – in the Anabaptist churches, but it’s a reality and one that really can’t be avoided, unless you hang out *only* with the more liberal Mennonites. Even then, you’ll run into it, or at very least, be very aware of it, because it is just a fact in the culture of the German Anabaptist churches.


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    @ Anon 1:
    Everything about me, e-v-e-r-y-t-h-i-n-g would be wrong according to those of such persuasion, I’d have to break my personality just to wear the right clothes. Actually I’m heterosexual which is probably all they could find to approve of. I have huuuuuge sympathy for you!

    Happy to usurp.


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    @ Beakerj: Same here, as far as personality, etc. etc.


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    @ A. Amos Love:

    But did they ever actually do it? I don’t recall it ever happened when I was among them.


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    @ numo: “Hate,” not “hat.”


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    Beakerj said “How strange – not – I’m interested in the anabaptists too…they are a bit of an antidote to all that arrogance & aggression…”,

    Well, my reading about the Amish doesn’t convince me that they are an antidote to much of anything. They are extremely legalistic.

    We used to buy milk from a couple who had become Amish as adults. The husband used to work for NASA before they became Amish dairy farmers. I don’t see how a group that bans the use of zippers is anything but a cult. The wife had to use straight pins to keep her dress on.


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    @ HoppyTheToad: The Amish aren’t the only Anabaptists out there, not by a long shot.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    Note that this Godly Advice(TM) always comes from MARRIED Christians, especially those who got married at 18.
    “I GOT MINE,
    I GOT MINE,
    SUCKS TO BE YOU!”

    Yeah, that’s usually how it goes.

    Married people in their 60s or 70s who married when they were 18 or 21 telling the older singles how hard the single life was.

    Equally bothersome are the 28- year- old guys who married at 23 to 25 who have blogs with dating tips for unmarried Christians of all ages.

    And yep, some of them do have the attitude of “nyah nyah, I’m married, sucks to be you. I can afford to hand out flippant advice and religious sounding platitudes”


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You forgot to include The BIG Boobs.

    That is one of them too, but usually left unspoken by polite Christians.

    But a lot of them (and Non-Christians do this too) are totally fixated on long hair, when giving dating or “how to get married” advice to single ladies.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    I’ve been to a few churches like that. I never want to go back. Not only do you feel out of place if you’ve never married or had children, but if you’re the only one with dark hair in a group of people with white or grey hair, you feel out of place.


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    Ryan wrote:

    Why are pastors and church workers so afraid to report abuse to the proper authorities?

    It’s been addressed in a series of blog posts at Rachel Held Evan’s blog.

    Here’s one post about it at RHE’s blog:
    No More Silence: An interview with Boz Tchividjian of G.R.A.C.E.

    This is a wee bit off topic to Ryan’s concern, but I saw this while skimming over RHE’s blog (in a guest post by a mental health professional on how to choose the proper counselor):

    “Does my counselor seem to have an unhealthy interest in all the details of my abuse?”

    I immediately thought of preacher Mark Driscoll and his “porn-o-visions,” wanting to delve into details of people’s sexual issues.


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    1. I’ve never actually spoken to any Mennonites, though there always seems to be one or two at every homeschool convention. But I just have to share this story. The last homeschool convention I went to, I was standing next to a booth for a Mennonite curriculum. The lady behind the counter had on the plain gray dress, bonnet, etc. There was also this roving teenager, wearing a sort of “Christian Goth” t-shirt and jeans, going all around the vendor hall handing out fliers about a Christian rock concert. Goth Boy walked right up to this Mennonite woman and handed her a flier with a totally straight face. Funniest thing I’ve ever seen. God bless her, she was very polite to him…

    2. My LCMS Lutheran pastor believes that every Christian holds the keys to the kingdom and he told us all so in Sunday morning Bible study…so Anabaptists are not the only ones who believe in the priesthood of all believers. Though to my knowledge certain forms of Reformed church government still deny that every believer holds the keys.


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    @ numo:
    I hear you Numes….I think my contact has probably been with some liberal anabaptists & definitely more on paper than in person. I suppose I like to dream of a calvin free world somewhere with people getting it right…:) Such a jaded idealist, me.


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    dee wrote:

    Dabide
    I have a quick question that would like to ask you offline. Should I send it to the email address attached to this comment?

    Or the one in this comment, there’s less chance of it drowning in spam there…


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    Anon 1 wrote:

    Dabide, It is one of my favorite books. I even had the footnotes translated!
    Did you know the research for it was funded by the Calvin Foundation?

    No, I didn’t, but I remember that I was impressed at the honesty of the author, as a Reformed professor, criticizing Calvin.

    I was actually able to understand some of the footnotes, having lived in Germany for a couple of years (my wife is German). 🙂


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    Thanks for the shout-out, Dee! Just to be clear, I’m hardly a regular commenter on Frank Viola’s site. In fact, it was the first time I ever read anything there. Still, after reading the article here, and then the further comments there, I felt I just had to say something to him.

    I’m glad I was able to do my bit, and get him to think about his opinions. It was actually one of the bright spots in a rough few months for me. 🙁


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    @ numo:
    You are right about the rigid gender roles among the anabaptists. Anyone interested should google “sex abuse in the Amish” and read the news accounts and blogs about what takes place there. The Amish handle such cases internally, and the local law enforcement is almost never involved. Many today have a romantic view of anabaptist groups, but they are prone to the same corruption as any other religion.


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    BeenThereDoneThat

    Much agreement when you write…
    “Many today have a romantic view of anabaptist groups, but they are prone to the same corruption as any other religion.”

    Seems Menno, got grumpy in his old age with all the many splits, different doctrines he didn’t approve of, and reverted back to the authority of the institutional church and traditions. Shunning those who did NOT believe ‘Our Way” became a standard sport among the different Ana-Baptist groups.

    From – “Unity is not the result of group concensus.
    It is the result of many individual commitments to Christ.”

    To – “In the end, Menno submitted to the authority of a new “mediatorial church” — that of the Anabaptist church he had helped to establish. His earlier love for Christ gave way to an inordinate affection for the church. And, thanks to the writings of his old age and of the Dutch and Alsatian (Amish) Anabaptists who followed him, his later position prevailed.”

    Seems Power Corrupts even the best of intentioned “Leaders.” Even Menno who started well.

    Maybe His Disciples are to follow Jesus – NOT follow “Mere Fallible Humans?
    And – “*to obey the voice of Christ* within…” Where ever that leads…

    Seems Jesus always taught His Disciples – Follow me… And…
    Do NOT be called Leaders, For there is “ONE” leader, Jesus. Mt 23:10 NASB

    Abraham went out, NOT knowing where he was going. Heb 11:8
    Seems to be a theme with God – Having to “Trust Jesus” daily. 😉

    Maybe His Disciples are to do the same – Today…
    Just, Hear His Voice, learn from, follow, and depend on, Jesus. 😉
    And “Go and Do” what Jesus asks of us – NO middle man…

    John 6:45
    It is written in the prophets, And they shall be ALL taught of God.

    Deuteronomy 4:36
    Out of heaven he made thee to *hear His voice,*
    that *He might instruct thee:*

    Psalms 32:8
    I will instruct thee and teach thee
    in the way which thou shalt go: I will guide thee with mine eye.

    Once again, maybe we can see, Movements, Denominations, “Religious Systems,”
    as Menno first did – “the church stands between God and man” – and leave it?

    What if Jesus is looking for people – To take out for His name. Acts 15:14

    What if those – Who are “Called Out” of “The Religious System” of their day

    Will come out – And will stay out? 😉

    When the believers do NOT “show-up” – And the money “dries-up,”
    So will “Todays Religious System.” – That is messed-up. 😉

    Wherefore come out from among them,
    and be ye separate, saith the Lord,
    and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
    2 Cor 6:17 KJV


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    dee wrote:

    Observing
    Do you think he really believes one can blow off Biblical discrepancies in 30 seconds?@ Observing Modern Day Gnostics:

    After reviewing the article I realized I spoke out of context. The article you linked to is not by Justin Taylor, but it is an article by D.A. Carson that JT was referencing. I still think my critique of JT is true, but this is not an example of his writing.
    With that in mind I do not believe that JT thinks all problems can be solved in 30 seconds. He would just say that the sermon is not the place to address the problems in any depth beyond 30 seconds. That being the case, Piper has been known to spend the entire sermon on addressing discrepancies. JT had a tendency years ago to come across condescending and it does come through in his writing at times, but in this case I think we should give him the benefit of the doubt that 30 secs is not enough time.


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    @ BeakerJ: A “jaded idealist”? Nah – just wanting something better than what you’ve been around. And I can’t blame you one bit.

    The thing is, all groups, no matter what their professed beliefs, are going to go off track at some point. In the cases I’m thinking of re. both many Anabaptists, it seems to be cultural as much as anything else, though the Amish are very much tied to sets of rules – you could read John Hostetler and/or Donald Kraybill for more info. (Hostetler was *the* scholar of amish life and culture – the 1st, and raised Amish – and Kraybill took over from him. Not sure who’s the next in line, though…)


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    Daisy wrote:

    But a lot of them (and Non-Christians do this too) are totally fixated on long hair, when giving dating or “how to get married” advice to single ladies.

    Let me tell you a story, from another website called “Heathen Critique” which does chapter-by-chapter snarks of Christianese Celebrity fiction.

    The work being snarked was “Soon”, Jerry Jenkins’ SF novel attempting to retell the story of Paul the Apostle in a Near Future Persecution Dystopia (this being the ONLY future allowed in Christianese attempts at SF). And it was as badly-written as Left Behind, with all the Jenkins flaws and then some.

    The scene is near the end where a minor-to-moderate-level female character is introduced. She is described indirectly in terms that suggest a physique like a Barbie doll with a boob job, long straight hair falling well below her waist, and a “personality” of an uber-submissive doormat going through the plot actions on automatic. There was a lot of speculation and snark that this was a Christianese version of a “10”.


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    @ Daisy:

    “But a lot of them (and Non-Christians do this too) are totally fixated on long hair, when giving dating or ‘how to get married’ advice to single ladies.”

    I’ve had Christian women harping on me to grow out my hair almost my entire life. It was long when I was 4 and then I cut it, hasn’t gone past my shoulders (more like the base of my neck) since. This advice is usually coupled with insistences that I have to wear “feminine clothes” – I think this basically equals pink, ruffles, bows, a dress and/or whatever the advice-giver personally likes, as long as it isn’t what I’m wearing when the advice is given – so someone looking at me from across the street “knows I’m a girl.” How they think I could be mistaken for a boy by wearing a turtleneck/polo shirt and jeans, I don’t know as I’m most certainly not flat-chested…


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    @ Hester: I used to get the same thing, Hester – and from men, too. Women weren’t nearly so unpleasant about it.


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    Regarding the stance 9 Marks type churches hold to, what if the pastor resigns? What if the church splits or dissolves? How much spiritually authority do these people actually believe they have over other Christians? Maybe I shouldn’t be, but I am absolutely amazed that such arrogance would be acceptable to anyone who knows Jesus. Delusions of grandeur go hand in hand with classic cult behavior. I’m not familiar with the “9 Marks”, and maybe some of them are good, healthy things to look for in a church, but this conveys Red Flag, not good mark.


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    The thing about the Ana Baptist interest these days I find totally ironic. I really believe it is a backlash to the YRR. People go and read history and think…wait, these Ana Baptists were radical! I can relate to them more. But they are relating to what they were historically.

    Greg Boyd is uniting his church with Ana Baptists. He is calling it their “tradition” or Tribe.

    To me, this is just more of the same problem. While the Ana Baptist courage in the face of both Catholic and Reformed tyranny is inspiring, they went to freedom and for the most part became legalistic. It reminds me a lot of the pink and blue Christianity of CBMW. That stuff is easier to sell folks who are comfortable and not on the run from the magistrates! :o)


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    Good point, Anon 1! It always seems to boil down to relying on another person or system to “get it right”, when the sufficiency of God’s grace through Christ, has to do with simply “getting it”. Every Christian has the Holy Spirit within themselves, the priesthood of the believer is real, valid. I have benefited greatly over many years of listening to sermons, have heard several different perspectives, see the encouragement and strength and potential for true service and worship which can be available in church participation/fellowship. I have seen pure agape’ love in Christian brothers and sisters and leaders, but when all is said and done, the individual believer and God have a unique relationship, and if we can’t disagree or question, or even walk out if necessary, then something is seriously wrong.


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    Anon1

    I have a really humorous post in the works for this coming week. It has to do with th Christian dating scene but it relates to everyone. It kind of relates to this comment about “tribes.”


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    I am a real long time lurker that has learned a lot from TWW (thanks everyone!) But never felt I had much to add to the conversation. However this discussion about anabaptism has pulled me out of the woodwork. I was born, raised, ama member, and still attend a conservative Mennonite church; although we plan to leave sometime in the near future. The anabaptists have a mostly admirable beginning; however, these days look quite different, as someone said earlier. What is most radical and unique about them at this point is the stance on separation from the world, imo, mostly seen inthe dress codes. They do speak of the priesthood of believers, and the ministers are chosen by lot from the congregation. They work a regular full time job and do not receive a salary. But a Sunday morning service looks pretty similar to most Protestant services with only the ministers addressing the congregation. Definitely no women preaching, and in more conservative churches than mine, women would not even give prayer requests or a testimony of praise. Pretty rigid gender roles throughout. And they are very far from Calvinism and eternal security. I should add though, that these things are true of conservative anabaptists. Liberal Mennonites are very different, and my impression is that nonresistance is about the only thing they have in commo with the conservatives. I don’t know as much about those churches. I get the feeling they would be more similar to mainline churches while the conservatives would be more like the IFB, with some patriarchy influence. Of course the Amish are pretty unique with their culture.


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    @ Oasis:

    Thank you, Oasis.

    That lady at the church who told you upfront you’d not fit in there – that was rather rude. Rude for her to say it, but even ruder for her church to ostracize singles, or to have a church culture that caters only to married couples with children.


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    @ Fendrel:

    Not only did they fail to report that (and there was a rape of another young lady at their church), but once they got caught, they tried to wiggle out of the situation by appealing to some loophole that says in some situations, one does not have to report crimes against kids.

    Meanwhile, their church (Victory Christian Center of Tulsa Oklahoma), continues to broadcast a weekly TV show.

    I find it hard to watch their show, or that one by preacher Jack Graham, knowing now what I do about their churches trying to cover up child sexual abuse.

    They make the usual money- grubbing, “sow your seed with our ministry now and God will make you a millionaire next week” type of tele evangelists with the bad, tacky toupees seem tame and harmless by comparison.


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy:

    I’ll have to visit that site. I’ve not read any fictional/entertainment Christian books. I have seen a few of the “Left Behind” movies that were based on the books but did not read the books themselves.

    The female character from the Christian book you described does sound like the gender complementarian dream girl.

    @ Hester

    That sounds familiar. I’ve not had anyone tell me to my face to let my hair grow long, but, it is advice that comes up on a recurring basis in Christian and secular dating advice blogs and books. I’ve seen that advice brought up on a show for Christians about single women over 35 who want to get married or re-married.

    There is a lot of sexism, ridiculousness, naiveté, and simplistic solutions in Christian (and some secular) dating advice, even the stuff by professionals (printed in books – and ones by psychiatrists).

    It’s presented like if you are still single,it’s because there is something wrong with you. So if only you would “X” you could get married by next week.

    And one of those typical tid bits (for women) is: “Men like long hair, so get rid of that short hair-do, ladies.”

    So, if I grow my hair down to my rear end, a Brad Pitt look alike and multi millionaire will magically appear on my doorstep right afterwards.

    The “long hair” rhetoric also shows up in Non Christian dating advice,and I’ve seen some Non Christian ladies criticize it.

    I like my hair to right at neck level or maybe shoulder level.

    Long hair is a hassle and time consuming to care for, it’s impractical, (I don’t mean to knock ladies who prefer their hair long,I am speaking for myself here), and even back when I wore my hair pretty short, men used to flirt with me. So I don’t think short hair is a hindrance in finding a mate anyway.

    @ dee on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 11:38 AM said:

    Oh gosh, I could write volumes on the idiotic, unrealistic, unhelpful, or sometimes insensitive advice singles (especially Christian singles) receive on how to get dates/ get married.

    What makes a lot of the advice more amusing, irrelevant, and idiotic is that the authors (even if it’s on a blog where anyone can visit) always assume the unmarried person reading it is only 20 – 25 years old.

    Even when I was 25, and I skimmed through Christian dating advice books for 20- somethings while in book stores, I found much of the material to be very naive and too sugary- nice,or the books assume all females are alike, and all males are alike.

    I think the biggest most frequent cliches we get are:

    “be content in your singleness”

    and (for women),

    a. “to attract a man you have to have long hair”
    b. be, or stay, pretty (get skinny, use make-up)

    Another thing I wanted to say about the long hair v. short hair thing, and this is serious.

    I read a lot of books that talk about domestic abuse (in the context of another topic), and all of them say a warning flag for women is men who try to control you (including your appearance), and who will not accept you as you already are.

    That would apply to this situation as… if you are truly happiest with short hair or medium hair (or being bald!), do not grow your hair long to attract a guy, or if a guy you are dating keeps pressuring you into changing that.

    If a guy won’t like you, or stay with you/ respect you, as you already are (short hair, or whatever quality), he’s not worth you, your time, your effort, and he is probably an emotionally / abusive jerk / controlling.


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    Daisy wrote:

    And one of those typical tid bits (for women) is: “Men like long hair, so get rid of that short hair-do, ladies.”

    So, if I grow my hair down to my rear end, a Brad Pitt look alike and multi millionaire will magically appear on my doorstep right afterwards.

    About as much chance as me finding Twilight Sparkle (http://browse.deviantart.com/art/Twilight-Sparkle-271672604) magically galloping up to my doorstep.

    You know where this “long straight hair down to their butts” on women comes from? It was THE style in the mid-1960s, when things went to simplicity after the elaborate piled-up hairdos of Fifties fashion. I remember it from grade school and early high school — it was the fashion of the time. And now for some reason it’s Godly Christianese.


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    Daisy wrote:

    Another thing I wanted to say about the long hair v. short hair thing, and this is serious.

    I read a lot of books that talk about domestic abuse (in the context of another topic), and all of them say a warning flag for women is men who try to control you (including your appearance), and who will not accept you as you already are.

    And if domestic abuse gets violent, long hair is a ready-made handle for a grappling attack.


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    Yes, lots of mixed messages out there, all missing the point. I remember going to a Bible school for a year because as a new believer, I really wanted to be a missionary, and figured that going through the system would improve my chances. I was already indoctrinated into the idea that God would use me best “their” way, LOL. I was single, and although lonely at the time, and it would have been wonderful to meet a mate there, was also disturbed to see that most of the women attending, were there to find a guy. The guys were looking for potential wives, because it was required for them to be married in order to be pastors in that denomination. That was all well and good in its way, if they loved God that much, but I always had that “if” in the back of my mind, and doubted even then, if such a stress made on marriage, from a patriarchal mindset, was really what God intended for ministry. Only God can show a person what’s best for their lives, and He is not restricted by singleness or married state. It was a little insulting to us all and to Him, IMO.


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    Headless Unicorn Guy wrote:

    You know where this “long straight hair down to their butts” on women comes from? It was THE style in the mid-1960s… And now for some reason it’s Godly Christianese.

    HUG – I suspect you answered your own implicit question, in that those segments of christian sub-culture (including today’s neo-calvinist one) that see themselves as defending the true faith against modern incursions will always hark back to some past golden age. Rebelling against today’s mindsets will naturally appeal to them. The point is usually lost on them that the fashions (including theological fashions) of said “golden age” were dangerous and radical in their time, and were themselves established in the teeth of fierce opposition from those defending goodness and decency (and the true faith) from modern incursions.


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    There is so much to talk about on this thread but my heart keeps lingering upon the compassionate words of the Japanese gentleman and the unknown number of people whose hearts lingered long enough.


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    Felicity

    Thanks for the first hand account about the Mennonites. I only knew one lady who actually moved just to live with them for awhile. We never did discuss it much other then her saying she liked the simplicity of the life style.

    You write…
    “ I was born, raised, ama member, and still attend a conservative Mennonite church; although we plan to leave sometime in the near future..”

    Was wondering – If you feel like talking about it…
    If you’ve been there since birth and a member? Why are you planning to leave?

    Thanks


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    I am wondering why some churches do not list their association with the 9marks identity in public. I was looking fir a church I thought surely would be listed on their website and was not but in the process was horrified to find my own church on the list! The worst part of their statement, in my opinion, is the proclamation that churches who don’t agree with all their positions compromise the Gospel. I know feel as though I am considered a Gospel compromiser! Horrified.


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    @ thatmom:
    I am growing more and more irritated by this stuff and plan to continue to expose the hypocrisy of those who feel “spiritually” superior. It starts today in a humorous, yet relevant post.


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    I have a similar problem when discussing, here in Scotland, the problems inherent in the “SROI” (social return on investment) model adopted by the Scottish Government. In particular, I encounter a familiar pattern when I raise this with one of the academics who designed it or who champion it: They assume that I’m struggling to understand such an apparently complex process.

    I patiently explain to them that, as a Cambridge science graduate with a masters degree in IT management, who solves The Times Killer Su Doku “deadly” grade puzzles in an average of 16 minutes, I am perfectly bloody clever enough to understand their big scary spreadsheets, thankyou very much. I don’t have a problem with how to do it: I have a problem with having to do it in the first place.

    Similarly: many theologically “educated” YRR chappies demonstrate an extraordinarily limited intellect masked by their ability to use Gospel™ terminology. Equally, a great many other christians out here have read the Bible Scriptures from cover to cover, in different translations, as well. Many of us out here are into NT greek. And we still haven’t swallowed their teaching.


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    @ Felicity: I hear you. While I am not from an Anabaptist church, I am PA Dutch and live in an area where there are many varieties of Mennonites (Old Order and otherwise) as well as Amish and church of the Brethren. There are also two Church of the Brethren-owned colleges within a 90-mile radius, though the student bodies at both are quite diverse.

    As an outsider, I have seen the “plainness” of the culture as both good and bad, since I think it can be very hard to live up to the ideals of the Mennonite culture(s) that I have observed… otoh, there are some really lovely people in the local Mennonite churches and I have found them to be very welcoming of folks from other denoms (like myself; born and raised Lutheran).


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    @ Headless Unicorn Guy: It was *one* of the styles at that time; more in the late 60s-early 70s, though.

    The other extreme: Twiggy-style gamine cuts.


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    thatmom wrote:

    I am wondering why some churches do not list their association with the 9marks identity in public. I was looking fir a church I thought surely would be listed on their website and was not but in the process was horrified to find my own church on the list! The worst part of their statement, in my opinion, is the proclamation that churches who don’t agree with all their positions compromise the Gospel. I know feel as though I am considered a Gospel compromiser! Horrified.

    I hear ya! Makes you wonder what else you are missing! As one commenter here made mention: Where is LOVE in the 9 Marks of a Healthy Church?


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    @ Felicity:
    Thank you for chiming in. My former church adopted a bit of anabaptist theology into their own. I believe it’s the “Two-Kingdom” theology that the anabaptists use to justify dealing with sexual abuse “in-house” instead of reporting it to the authorities. Is this true of the more liberal Mennonites, or is it more a practice of the conservative anabaptists?


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    Amos – The reasons we’re planning to leave are complex, but simply put, we don’t really believe the unique parts of Mennonite theology and are concerned that the unique culture is a big learning curve for outsiders and not necessary. There are many good people in the church, which does make leaving difficult in some ways. I’m glad your friend found a home in the Anabaptist church and I know it’s a good fit for some people. I just don’t think I’m one of them. @ A. Amos Love:


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    @ BeenThereDoneThat:
    How interesting that your former church mixed in some Anabaptist theology. I really find the recent interest in Anabaptism fascinating. Was it the two kingdom idea that they adopted?
    There is something of a distrust of government in Anabaptist people. I think it probably goes way back to their beginnings, when they were persecuted for their faith by the state churches. Two kingdom theology also plays a big role. It influences a person to think so much in terms of “us” and “them”, even in a country as free as the US. It may also be a bit of a pride thing, to not let others know that we have problems too. I know sex abuse is a problem in some conservative churches. However, in my church, the pastor has clearly stated from the pulpit, that physical and sexual abuse is wrong and that he has a lawful obligation and will report it to the authorities if he finds out about it, and I really believe he would. I really can’t say how liberal Mennonites handle sexual abuse. I suspect they are not quite as secretive about it as some very conservative churches.


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    At page 13 of the Government’s Sentencing Memorandum in the Jack Schaap case, the victim’s father is quoted to say, “Our entire family has been banned from the FBC [i.e., Schaap’s church], the church we have attended our whole life.” No further comment necessary.


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    @ Felicity:
    Yes, my church adopted the two-kingdom teachings, as well as non-violence, non-resistance, simplicity of lifestyle, and some others. I’m relieved that your pastor took a stand against sexual abuse. That means not every church that adheres to these teachings will handle these issues the same way.
    My former church used their peaceful, agrarian image as a defense when a slew of sexual crimes among them were reported in the news. I think it’s, at best, a feeble defense after reading articles such as this one: http://www.beliefnet.com/News/2005/02/The-Gentle-People.aspx?p=1
    Particularly this quote: “In some church districts, which encompass only two or three dozen families scattered along back roads, there appear to be many crimes like Johnny and Eli’s to forgive. No statistics are available, but according to one Amish counselor who works with troubled church members across the Midwest, sexual abuse of children is ‘almost a plague in some communities.'”