Welcome to a Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg
Here Is Our Order of Worship
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A Prayer About Prayer by Peter Marshall link
Lord, teach us to pray. Some of us are not skilled in the art of prayer.
As we draw near to you in thought, our spirits long for your Spirit,
and reach out for you, longing to feel you near.
We know not how to express the deepest emotions that lie hidden in our hearts.
In these moments, we have no polished phrases
with which to impress one another, no finely molded, delicately turned clauses to present to you.
Nor would we be confined to conventional petitions and repeat our prayers
like the unwinding of a much-exposed film.
We know, our Father, that we are closest to you
when we have left behind the things that have held us captive so long
We would not be ignorant in prayer and, like children, make want lists for you.
Rather, we pray that you will give unto us only what we really need.
We would not make our prayers the importuning of you,
an omnipotent God, to do what we want you to do.
Rather, give us the vision, the courage, that shall enlarge our horizons
and stretch our faith to the adventure of seeking your loving will for our lives
We thank you that you are hearing us even now.
We thank you for the grace of prayer. We thank you for yourself.
Amen.
Prayers for All Sorts and Conditions of Men Book of Common Prayer link
O God, the creator and preserver of all mankind,
we humbly beseech you for all sorts and conditions of men;
that you would be pleased to make your ways known unto them,
your saving health unto all nations.
More especially we pray for your holy Church universal;
that it may be so guided and governed by your good Spirit,
that all who profess and call themselves Christians may be led into the way of truth,
and hold the faith in unity of spirit, in the bond of peace, and in righteousness of life.
Finally, we commend to your fatherly goodness all those who are in any ways afflicted or distressed,
in mind, body, or estate; [especially those for whom our prayers are desired];
that it may please you to comfort and relieve them according to their several necessities,
giving them patience under their sufferings, and a happy issue out of all their afflictions.
And this we beg for Jesus Christ’s sake.
Amen.
Scripture Reading: Hebrews 12:14-15 (NASB Bible Gateway)
Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord. See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
Prayer for the Poor and Neglected from The book of Common Prayer link
Almighty and most merciful God,
we remember before you all poor and neglected persons whom it would be easy for us to forget:
the homeless and the destitute,
the old and the sick,
and all who have none to care for them.
Help us to heal those who are broken in body or spirit,
and to turn their sorrow into joy.
Grant this, Father, for the love of your Son,
who for our sake became poor, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Amen.
A Benediction-Book of Common Prayer link
Almighty and eternal God,
so draw our hearts to you,
so guide our minds,
so full our imaginations,
so control our wills,
that we may be wholly yours, utterly dedicated unto you;
and then use us, we pray of you, as you will,
and always to your glory and the welfare of your people;
through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Amen.
Wade….
I like what you taught concerning the root of bitterness. I like what you taught about pursuing Christ. But for our ongoing discussion, I have a question about what you taught concerning pursuing peace with all men. How would you apply that to someone who has been molested? Would you tell them that if they did not welcome their molester into their presence in peace, their relationship with God is in question?
I also am curious how you would counsel me on the following…Almost five years ago, I cut off contact with my mother. It is not something I like and it is not how I would prefer things. And I know it is not what she wants (she has been vocal to other family members). And I struggle from time to time feeling guilty about it, and I sometimes think about it and cry. I actually sometimes miss her.
But here's the thing. There was no space for me to heal from the molestation…or from the abuse (emotional and physical) the she inflicted…until she was no longer present physically in my life. I remember one of the last few times I talked to her on the phone – 5 years ago this month – I was trying to explain to her that I needed her to give me some space. She asked if she could pray for me and my reaction was this: the whole time she was praying (a very manipulative prayer), I was sitting there with my mouth open in a silent scream.
So, if I am unwilling to welcome her back into my life (there has been no acknowledgement on her part that anything wrong ever happened) does this mean my pursuit of Christ is shown ineffective? To be honest, some of what you say in your sermons seems to flat go against the things I believe Christ has guided me to do….
Jesus also said, “…I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law—
a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.” (Matt10)
When a relationship with our parent (or friend, spouse, etc) has become defined by hurting and demeaning, God isn’t in it. Staying with it, after trying to repair it and failing, would be, in a basic way, preferring the sick relationship over a healthier one. God is all about health.
To think that God would call one to remain in an ever-damaging relationship is to suspect that God wants one to keep being hurt.
I did the same thing this winter with my mother. She was not my primary abuser but she acquiesced and complied and even though my father is now long dead, she insists on continuing the demeaning relationship established long ago. I’ve been trying for a decade to set it aright but she just won’t stop.
It’s angering but finally, just sooo sad. I also feel the loneliness you mention. It’s hard to give up on a parent–they are important throughout our lives. But sometimes “pursuing peace” means letting go and finding love in other places, even while that parent-shaped hole remains. Working to fill it up with Jesus is hard and only partially successful, I’d say. But much more…well…peaceful.
“Be Thou My Vision”: Have always loved that song.
Alternate phraseology to “Thou my great father, I thy true son.”
1. Thou my great mother, I thy true child.
2. Thou my great lover, I thy true love.
3. Thou my great teacher, I thy true student.
4. Thou my great maker, I thy true creation.
Etc
@ Patrice: I found it very hard to give up on a sibling, but in the end, it was the best thing I could have done. (No sexual abuse was involved, but they were demeaning and cruel to me.)
This world is *not* an easy place to live and sometimes the wisest move is one of separation from those who are abusive and refuse to change their behavior. I have seen that in others’ lives, too. It’s VERY hard, but…
@ Patrice: In an odd way, choosing to create a boundary between the abuser and oneself reminds me of Jesus saying “Let the dead bury their dead; come follow me.”
To stay in an abusive relationship brings death; those who are involved in harming each other are like “the dead” in Jesus’ saying. The only way to find life is to follow him away from it all.
Not sure why this hadn’t ever occurred to me before, but it seems so obvious now!
Graven Deprav’in: “Dr. Depraved, Departs With Our Faith Shutting Out The Grace Of God?
HowDee,
What?
hum, hum, hum…
The devil sows seeds of ‘death’.
Jesus sows seeds of ‘life’.
huh?
Man, a living ‘soul’ ate the forbidden fruit in the Garden, and his ‘soul’ died that day.
(sourface)
Not unlike Medullia brain functions, which can continue sometime after the other parts of the brain have ceased, the body in a generic sense, lived on until at some 930 years it finally ran out of vitality, and it too parished.
Fast-foward…
Jesus is God’s only begotten Son, who through Him, and for Him, all things were made.
ok.
And through Him (Jesus) God has been spiritually birthing sons & daughters for Himself, by the power of God’s Holy Spirit.
ok.
The Garden prophecy (the first bible prophecy recorded) tells of a ‘One’ who would come and have His ‘heel’ bruised, Yet, would bruise the Garden Serpent’s ‘head’.
Do you remember?
The ‘One’ spoken of in the Garden, was none other than God’s beloved Son, Jesus, who would one day come and bruise the very head of the Serpent, the devil, the ‘rebellion king’ himself.
Sure thing!
Jesus accomplished this mission when He came to earth, and is now in heaven with His Father, waiting for His enemies to be made a footstool for His (Jesus’ ) feet.
hmmm…
Yet, God is presently giving spiritual birth to many sons, and daughters.
ok.
Yet, God is also raising up a Bride for His beloved Son, from among the Gentiles who people this planet.
huh?
Yet, God has a chosen people which through sin were pulled from the vine, yet will one day be re-grafted in. (Israel)
huh?
“I am the vine, you are the branches, he who abides in me bears much fruit, for apart from me you ca do nothing.” -Jesus
Whew!
This is the case with God’s chosen people, the sons of Israel.
hmmm…
Yet, they will one day be grafted back into the ‘Vine’.
When all thing are fulfilled, Jesus said…
This will take place.
Yahoo!
*
In the mean time God’s only begotten Son, Jesus, –who was sacrificed by His Father (God) for the sins of His chosen people, (the sons of Israel) –called one man, Saul (the Apostle Paul) of Tarsus, to take the great commission to the gentile nations.
He did this.
(grin)
He tells us this in the bible New Testament. (please read!)
Oh.
Those who ‘believed’ Paul’s (his name changed from Saul) telling of the good news, the gospel, –that Jesus died for the gentile also (too), that they too could find a place at the Father”s table, thus fulfilling the “go to the highways and byways, and bid them all come! request.
Sounds good?
This is the true mission of Jesus’saved ones : to yet bid yet others of the highways, and the byways, to also come to the Lord’s table.
Make a call?
Take a seat?
hmmm…
Now every one (many of all the church groups) makes venerable disciples for ‘themselves’, and not for the precious Lord Jesus.
(sadface)
I. am. the. vine. Jesus said…
Kind Folk, Please recognize that Jesus is the true vine, the true manna from heaven.
Call out to Him today! (He is listening!)
For there is no other name (but Jesus’) under heaven given unto men in which they can be ‘saved’.
please read your bible!
Please don’t let the Doctors of Depravity (the Neo-Calvinist, aka Calvinestas ), steal this wonderful news from you!
God is asking for your hand in friendship, fellowship, and faith!
That ‘hand’ is stretched out still!
What say ye?
(let it b …Yes!)
(grin) ☺
>-((S“㋡”py((º>™
—
@ numo:
Absolutely! Over-emphasis in theological structural teaching can keep us from recognizing that the principles of Christianity are fundamentally for our daily lives. And the essential principles are love and truth.
For eg, we have a huge problem with the idea of discipline in current church doctrine. It’s also gigantically twisted for those who have been abused. There are several aspects but take the most obvious—
If we apply the current floating ideas of church discipline, those same ideas should be applied to intimate relationships. Right? Nope. Individuals are told to endure ad nauseam in abusive family relationships, while leaders can kick people out for the same issues. For us: “forgiveforgiveforgive!” but for them: “you are cut off from us.”
@ Sopwith:
“Kind Folk, Please recognize that Jesus is the true vine, the true manna from heaven. Call out to Him today! (He is listening!)”
Yes, and when we call out and he brings us to himself, and shows us what a loving truthful relationship is, how healing and gracious and clean it is to be with him, then we have new tools to evaluate the character/health of our other relationships.
And that’s extra-important for those who’ve been abused because they often no longer have a clue (if they ever did) about what a healthy relationship is.
I’m soooo grateful that God comes to me and shows me the way it is meant to be. I would not have known otherwise and I wouldn’t been able to keep going, the way it was.
I am going to make a series of long statements and I’d love comments about what anyone thinks. If I’m over-stepping my bounds, let me know that too.
It seems to me that Wade makes a fundamental mistake when he equates “the sanctification” with “the righteousness” in this Heb 12 passage. “The sanctification” is what happens in an ongoing relationship with God. If we don’t pursue the relationship, we won’t grow and won’t be able to see God.
I will also disagree with Wade that coming to God is the most difficult thing for anyone to do. For some, this is undoubtedly true but for others, coming to God is pure joy because we are like children starving for love who spy through the window of a sturdy warm house, a table full of food, with lights on, waiting for us.
Around 10:45, Wade says that if we are feeling our own righteousness when we go off to work, we’d better start pursuing God again because we’re going awry. Well, maybe we are, maybe we aren’t.
If the process of sanctification develops wisdom and maturity in us, and helps us back to that which God intended when He/She made us, then it is merely accurate to recognize that we ourselves have “grown in righteousness”. Wade compares this aspect to “smelling like the game” and that the smell is God’s righteousness in/on us and out of that “you just start changing”. So he gets the point, but his emphasis is all on everythingonlyGodtoptobottom. Whereas I daresay it is insulting to God not to recognize our growing maturity and wisdom, and not to gain confidence because along the way, we become more “ourselves” than we’ve ever been. Confidence and satisfaction doesn’t mean that we think we did it on our own, or that we created ourselves to be so excellent, or that we know what to do from now on, no help needed.
Wade makes a couple of important points. From within our relationship with God, we can be comfortable with varieties of personalities and life styles, opinions, doctrines. It’s because we know that our own goofy individual selves are loved, too, and moreover that God is huge and complex and we discover more sides of Him/Her when we have affectionate relationships with others.
We also know that we all have weaknesses and faults and can be generous towards our own and others, as God is generous to us. But what happens when someone hurts us deeply, to our core?
The first step, every single time, for anyone who wants to restore a broken relationship with another: forgiveness is asked for great wrongs done. It is so with God/us and it is so with us/others. The person of Christ only allowed the opportunity for this to happen; his action didn’t mean that wrongs are no longer destructive.
So what happens when someone refuses to face his/her great wrongs in the relationship? Well, what happens when that occurs between God and us? The process of forgiveness remains incomplete.
But we small humans, knowing the harshness of the law and our human frailty, can let the need for revenge go. We let go of animosity or desire to murder (as Wade mentions). We can pray that God’s love will find a way to resolve the darkness in the other’s heart. And if the person never does see the need for resolution, we can be glad to leave it to God to decide what to do. Our love is essentially to give that person to our loving God. This frees us from the twists/bleeding of the damaging relationship, and it frees the other person to feel the natural consequences of his/her own refusal with hope for eventual learning.
Wade says, “If somebody offends you? Listen, all your life you’ve been offensive to God…But He’s embraced you. Why? Because of His grace in Christ.” Here, the idea of forgiving seventy x seven becomes relevant. We all have things we keep getting wrong. We notice it, ask forgiveness, take a deep breath and go on. It happens again. Ach. Over time, we get on top of it, but only with the help of others/God, and if we keep facing it and searching for a way to finally correct it. This is how we bring grace and humility towards the failings and sins of ourselves and others.
But the problem with people such as the chronic abuser is that he/she seldom faces it. Or if he/she does, it is often a small portion of it and the core is left standing. And then repeated. And repeated. Christ can do nothing for someone who insists that they are essentially righteous when they hurt others. Neither can we.
But Wade disagrees because he believes it’s all God all the time and nothing of us and therefore, it is Christ in us who waits for the other to repent, not us. In this way, he minimizes the human component by maximizing our complete and total brokenness as creatures. We can do no good but that Christ must do it through us. If this is so, Wade makes the correct extrapolations regarding damaging relationships, but in my well-considered (hah) opinion, humans are a mixture of good/evil and that is why God can track out a way for us (something other than God) to be brought into relationship with Him/Her. The fall occurred when humans ate fruit from the “tree of the knowledge of good and evil”. This didn’t make a complete and total hash of humans, wrecking them so deeply that they weren’t even human any longer. It only meant that good/evil were all mixed up and that creates frequent breakdown of the running systems.
Thus I think that confusing “the righteousness of God” with “the sanctification” process causes a number of problems.
Whaddayathink?
@ Patrice: My understanding of sanctification is, well – living one’s life, really.
I do not believe in the Wesleyan “entire sanctification” ideal, unless – and it’s a big “unless” – what he meant is that it’s part of the whole deal of what happens when one comes (in a lighting bolt or slowly and gradually) into life in Christ…
I also totally agree that for some folks, “coming to God” is a real joy. The “struggle” paradigm comes, I think, out of (wait for it) certain interpretations of Calvinism, and certain *mis*interpretations of NT passages. Certainly, there’s Paul being knocked to the ground and seeing a vision, but there’s also Cornelius and the Ethiopian diplomat in Acts – people who already worshiped the one God and who came to know more about him. (Ditto for the folks who only knew about John’s baptism, and likely *many* of the people who followed Jesus – even his own natural family.)
I wonder why we have to draw This/That (two-sided) models for ourselves, rather than seeing the interstices and shadows and byways and… (Might be kind of a wandering ‘graph, but I hope my intention is clear.)
Further, since it seems that not a single person mentioned in the Gospels believed in what Jesus said about his resurrection until *after* it happened, well… gradual revelation, a gradual coming to know and believe, because otherwise, if it was all unleashed on the human mind at one time, it might be a bit too much for our brains to process, and for our minds and hearts to understand.
Note: I have not been listening to Wade’s sermons. That’s because I have a genuine aversion to preaching at this point, and have for years. It seems that some of his work would sit well with me, while some of the things that Patrice has been writing about would probably make me want to run far, far away. That’s *no* reflection on Wade’s character or speaking ability and *everything* to do with what I went through and where I am now.
@ Patrice:Just curious: have you ever read anything by Miroslav Volf? (I haven’t, but am interested, since he comes from what used to be Yugoslavia and lived there during some of the worst fighting/genocide in the 90s.)
He’s written a great deal about forgiving those who have committed very real abuses – even atrocities. But I’m not sure how he approaches it all.
Am also very interested in learning more about the hurdles S. Africans have faced and are continuing to face, re. forgiving those who’ve harmed, repentance by those who committed the harm (including but not limited to real atrocities), and moving forward. Guess Bishop Tutu is a place sto start, though maybe Rafiki has some recs?
I have not listened to the sermon so I’m not sure what point Wade was making, but I have seen this teaching in other places.
“But Wade disagrees because he believes it’s all God all the time and nothing of us and therefore, it is Christ in us who waits for the other to repent, not us.” Patricia
It seems that it comes close to (if not actual) mysticism. It also does not seem to take into account the work of the Holy Spirit who was given to us as our Helper. My understanding is that believers “work” with the Helper in our sanctification . . . as suggested in the phrase to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling.”
“Thus I think that confusing “the righteousness of God” with ‘the sanctification’ process causes a number of problems.” Patricia
I so agree with this. Many Sundays I sit in church and am concerned because there is no distinction when talking to the believer as opposed to the unbeliever. Justification and sanctification are mucked together as if they are the same thing. Believers are hearing the message that Jesus and the disciples were bringing to the lost. Is that the message/teaching that should be center at the gathering of believers, the Bride of Christ? (I would say no.) How is the Bride of Christ described and spoken of in scripture and is that the main thrust I hear when we gather? (Sadly, no.) Do I need to be resaved daily, weekly, monthly? (No.) There is almost no teaching as to our life in Christ as the gathered Church and/or doing what the gathered church is called to do when they gather. Even our worship is mainly centered on our sinfulness and the cross. The Church gathering has become a time for “Evangelism to believers”(?) it seems.
Jeannette, Patrice, sopy, numo, Bridget, et al
I appreciate the discussion here and plan to listen to Wade's sermon again. I have heard it once – last weekend. I will try to weigh in on some of the questions posed.
Wade is out of the country for a couple of weeks, and I'm fairly sure he doesn't have internet access. We are on our own in his absence ;-), so perhaps we can address each others' questions and concerns.
Please pray for safe travels for Wade and his wife Rachelle. Rest assured, EChurch will continue in Wade's absence. We will be featuring guest sermons for the next two weekends. If you have a song request, just send me an e-mail. deb@thewartburgwatch.com
Blessings to our EChurch participants! We are so glad you are here.
“Whereas I daresay it is insulting to God not to recognize our growing maturity and wisdom, and not to gain confidence because along the way, we become more “ourselves” than we’ve ever been. Confidence and satisfaction doesn’t mean that we think we did it on our own, or that we created ourselves to be so excellent, or that we know what to do from now on, no help needed.”
Good thoughts on entire comment, Patrice. Another part of this that bothers me is that when sanctification is seen as all God and none of us, where is our responsibility? I see the converse as a problem, when we do evil as professsing believers is it all God, too? Are we responsible for the evil we do to others?
Jeannette
Wade is out of pocket for two weeks. I would be happy to discuss this with you but do not want to be a buttinski.@ Jeannette Altes:
Patrice wrote:
Patrice, I totally agree with this entire comment. Confusing the righteousness of God with Sanctification is a huge problem. Just watch it in application. And that is a huge disconnect with so many. How would we apply it to the SGM situation? We have to redefine sin to make that connect and that is exactly what we are seeing happen in that movement with all the RBD protecting him and acting like nothing has happened.
The biggest problem we have in Christendom is the chronic abuser who uses scripture against others. No repentence but pointing fingers that you are unforgiving even when the abuse is chronic. You are to forgive 70×7 but they do not have to change. It mocks everything Christianity is about: Spiritual growth.
And that is the missing piece. The focus has been about going to heaven…on Justification only. Not kingdom living right now, which is the sanctification part.
I like how JC Ryle put it in his book, Holiness. Justification and Sanctification are two different things. But, you cannot have one without the other and visa versa. Sanctification is an indicator that Justification took place. It might take a long time but it is there.
But it has become politically incorrect to tell a consistent “Christian” abuser they are wrong. Because to tell them that means you think you are sinless perfection. And if they are a pastor who protects abusers then you are in direct sin. All sin is equal. So the toxic person can continue to be toxic because you are a sinner, too. My deal with toxic people is to get far away. Even if they are family. Those who care about justice, compassion, fairness, etc are great targets for these Christian bully types. They use your own qualities against you. This is especially cruel when the target is a child.
None of this makes common sense when you are immersed in it so folks keep their mouths shut or leave if they can. But it is a system that promotes spiritual pygmies that we should fear, not fellowship with.
You know, one more thing. I keep hearing people defend some really bad stuff going on in churches or with leaders. And they will say there is no perfect church, just look at all the problems in the early church. I at this point kind of find that excuse amusing with all the research I have been doing. We have completed scripture, they did not. We have had 2000 years, they were brand new. They had to deal with those coming from polytheism and those who were an exclusive group like the Jews.
That excuse is wearing thin. Not that we have to get it all right but it would seem we could have progressed some instead of man’ constant reach for power over others in the Name of Christ throughout most of history. I maintain the ones that were not like this were nobodies that history never recorded. They were probably on the run from those with the power and who wrote the official history. :o)
What does pursue peace with all men mean in this context? Isn’t the context persecution and the temptation to go renounce their new found faith because of it?
Wade said “holding animosity in your heart toward someone” would not be pursuing peace. If I look at the context, I see the pursuing peace to be less relational, and more — don’t upset people necessarily so you don’t worsen your persecution.
Looking back to verse 3, we consider Him, Jesus, who had continual opposition from sinners and we will follow in His footsteps (1Peter 4:12) not thinking it strange that we will be hated…and rely on His strength to endure. It would be to our advantage then, as far as it is possible in us, to be at peace with all men. (Romans 12:18) We don’t start wars with people who hate/persecute us, or add fuel to the fire or prolong strife by striking back. That would be good advice to keep onself from getting killed. I always thought that was the context.
@ numo:
No, I’ve not heard of Miroslav Volf. If you read and find him useful, would you let me know? Rafiki quoted a great bit from Tutu a couple days back, yes?
All I know is that if my father was alive, I’d not be able to have a relationship with him, even if he’d confessed fully to me. And it wouldn’t be because my vertical relationship was awry. For one thing, he’d set off flashbacks, which are biological and can only be moderated over time. For another, he trashed every aspect of me and I’d have not even one corner from which to start rebuilding trust. Sometimes something gets so completely broken that it is not repairable, and in the face of continuing need, new materials are gathered and something new built.
My mother married again and her husband told me, when I was in severe PTSD, that I’d better not forget that when I got to heaven someday, my dad would be there. The man just couldn’t get over the idea that my father helped people in God’s ministry and must be saved no matter what else went on. I thought that was a foul thing to say to me, not because it might not be true but because of his attitude. I instantly felt a frisson of despair “I’ll never ever get away from him!” A mini-flash to the trapped girl of my childhood.
But I gathered myself together and told him tartly that he had no idea where my father was. “However God handles it is fine with me,” I said. And then, waxing creative, lol, I continued, “If Dad is there, he’s likely cleaning heaven’s toilets under the leadership of a very large black woman (he was racist and sexist), so he can learn the lessons we all had to learn when recipients of his cruelty ….And the absolutely best thing of all,” I said, “Is that he will be enjoying it! Isn’t that wonderful?”
I wish you could have seen his face rofl
As far as the root of bitterness, we have an example of what that means in verse 16. Esau was a root of bitterness. He turned away from God for the things of the world…falling away from Christ…the context is falling away. I’ve read that bitterness is associated with wormwood (see Deut 29:18-21, verse 18 is a cross reference for Heb 12:15), so it’s bitter for those who turn away from God and Esau illustrates that bitterness. Verse 15 is warning them to beware of someone displaying this root of bitterness (falling away from God) because that person(s) might lead many astay in their faith causing much trouble and discord. Don’t turn back is the constant theme in Hebrews. Don’t reject Christ for salvation.
How Wade is getting the following to mean the root of bitterness, I am not sure-
1)Prevent the heresy that the grace of God is due us because of our performance for Him
2)Prevent the heresy that the grace of God is due us because of our performance compared to others
“But the problem with people such as a chronic abuser is that he/she seldom faces it”
Nor do they care to. From my experience,most people in the church world don’t seem to get that. These type of people do not change because their heart is hardened and it is not my obligation to wait around encase they might chose to repent.Jesus even told the disciples to wipe the dust off their feet and move on. Also, God never said that people will change/repent just because we pray for them. I’m amazed at how many scriptures have been twisted to fit peoples agenda.
“What does pursue peace with all men mean in this context?”
Was Jesus “pursuing peace” with the religious leaders of his time? If so, He had a funny way of doing it!
@ Anon 1:
“But it has become politically incorrect to tell a consistent “Christian” abuser they are wrong. Because to tell them that means you think you are sinless perfection. And if they are a pastor who protects abusers then you are in direct sin. All sin is equal. So the toxic person can continue to be toxic because you are a sinner, too.”
This.
Narcissists, at whatever level of severity, are confident and essentially peaceful inside of themselves, having few internal moral dilemmas or sense of shame. So people are drawn to them, and they want to believe the narcissistic hype because it feels so nice to stand next to someone who is so certain of him/her self.
“Narcissists, at whatever level of severity,are confident and essentially peaceful inside themselves,having few internal moral dilemmas or sense of shame.”
Exactly. To sum it up, they just don’t have a conscience.That’s how they can do what they do to others and sleep at night.
@ Diane:
Thanks for your healthy approach, Diane. I also re-read Hebrews 12 (NIV) today and found it a slog. It shouts discipline: “Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? If you are not disciplined—-and everyone undergoes discipline—-then you are not legitimate true sons and daughters at all. Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it….No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.”
What is this word “discipline”? I wasn’t able to read this passage for 30 years—it made me bonkers because of the double whammy of “discipline” by an awful father. The only way I can work through it even now, is backwards. It says that “discipline” will produce righteousness and peace. Therefore suffering abuse must not be “discipline” or “hardship”.
So I’d go more with your understanding, that it’s about dealing with general hardships of life, which includes antagonism from others. And keeping eyes on the Prize.
There might be a personal aspect to it, too. Maybe it also means that when one does wrong, there are natural consequences and those consequences are “hardships” that if understood, can produce righteousness and peace. That would also make sense with the part that follows: “Therefore strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees. Make level paths for your feet, so that the lame may not be disabled but rather healed.” If our weakness is, for eg, a tendency to eat too much, then set up a healthier approach to food so that we won’t be easily led off into gorging when feeling vulnerable. Keep the addictive foods out of the house, learn what’s behind the gorging and correct that, too. And be patient and persistent.
And if we aren’t patient and persistent with self/others, and don’t stay on that walk with God, we can’t see God, and bitterness will result because we are short of grace. And since we are relational creatures, that bitterness will spread around and cause a lot of trouble. Which we don’t need because there’s already enough of trouble in life.
This has little to do with how to resolve a relationship with an abuser, in my opinion.
I think Wade was seeing bitterness as “the world owes me a living” because I’ve been hurt. That we aren’t owed anything, that everything from God is a pure act of generosity and not due to our sad condition or because we “tried hard”.
The context of Chapter 12 seems to be about endurance and the struggle we have with our own sin. It seems more in line with running the race and training/discipline so that we are strong and can achieve the goal — holiness. Jesus is given as an example, although we will never have to endure to that extent.
“1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,
2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
4 In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.”
Patrice wrote:
I really hate to say this but I came to the conclusion from my days around the mega industrial complex that these sorts are attracted to this profession. Where else can you get an audience, be adored from afar, never really have to interact one on one with someone you don’t want to and be paid well for it?
The way a narcissist operates best is that folks around them are beholden to them for their own income/well being. Mega church pastors are surrounded by sychophants. Many times they are the elders! Everything revolves around protecting the IMAGE of the celebrity and the church. The people are there to provide an audience for the celebrity and pay for it all.
They also operate well when they are protected from familiarity. So they can be viewed from afar and their stage persona is what they are known as being like. It often wasn’t who they were at all.Believe me, I have even seen the fake humility practiced and people really believe it. And they won’t believe anything else. That is where I think we need to do most of the education. How can someone on a stage “pastor”? You don’t even really know them!Only a select few are trusted to be socially involved with this celebrity. Everyone else is thrilled if he even says hello to them. Cult of personality.
I hate to say this but now when I find out someone is a pastor, I am automatically on alert.It is no longer a “respected” position in my view. Pastors have become a lot like Congressman to me. :o)
@ Dee:
By all means, weigh in! 😉
I value your thoughts and insights.
@ Patrice:
@ Anon 1:
Yes! The ongoing relationship – like any relationship, if it does not grow and deepen, it falters and fades…..
@ Patrice:
That was a hell of a comeback to your stepdad. 😀
It’s interesting…something in the forgive-your0abuser trope that is often overlooked – something that took a couple of years of being out of ‘ThatChurch’ and talking to God and hashing through dogmas with a friend….the 70 x 7 thing…the forgiveness isn’t a blanket thing. It is offered to those who ask for it….kind of like us with God. Jesus wasn’t saying we had to forgive everything all the time no exception just put up with it. He was saying if they come to you repentant, asking…forgive. HUGE difference from what I hear victims taught to do….
As to my mother and cutting her off….she is a narcissist and my experience is that even trying to discuss with her how others abused my causes her to turn it around to be about how misunderstood she is…to try and discuss with her the abuses she committed would be a nightmare….
@ Anon 1:
Anon 1…YES! Inabsolutely agree with everything in this comment. It has been my experience. To be honest, it is a huge deal for me to even want to engage Wade in discussion. Nothing to do with him personally, just the position…..
Patrice, I know this is going to sound nuts but when I read Hebrews 12, I often think of Victor Frankle’s “Mans Search for Meaning”. The Hebrews were being persecuted and some were falling away. So, the author is talking about how to view it. It makes you stronger. You can do it, Jesus Christ is with you….
From what I understand, it was persecution from unbelievers BECAUSE they were believers. I don’t think it maps to being abused and mistreated by professing believers! I think trying to map it in that way is what causes the problems. Believers do not abuse/persecute people as a way of life. (I know that will upset some so be it)
I think the sin being referred to falls into the category of falling back into previous habits to fit into society and lessen the persecution.
To think of being abused by a believer (or unbeliever) as discipline for righteousness is sick. That is the sort of teaching that makes teens want to commit suicide. We must refute it always.
@ Patrice`
“And if we aren’t patient and persistent with self/others, and don’t stay on that walk with God, we can’t see God, and bitterness will result because we are short of grace. And since we are relational creatures, that bitterness will spread around and cause a lot of trouble. Which we don’t need because there’s already enough of trouble in life.”
Yes–You just wrote out Hebrews 12:14-15 very beautifully, imo. The root of bitterness is interesting in that it alludes to falling away from God or toward idols.
“This has little to do with how to resolve a relationship with an abuser, in my opinion.”
Yes, I agree with this, Patrice.
As far as the helping hands that heal phrase used by Wade- although I like the phrase and see nothing at all wrong with it, I do think the feeble arms and weak knees being helped that is alluded to in verses 12-13 have more to do with keeping other believers encouraged to stay on the straight path–meaning do not fall away from Christ–back to the theme of Hebrews being not falling away–just bearing each other up as we come across difficulties and hatred by those who hate Christ (I think that refers to discipline–not like something God is mad at you for and is sending to you…but more this is the world you live in and you will have trials and be hated and if they hated Him they will hate us) more than it means to reconcile and embrace and allow full access into your life those who have consistently hurt you with no signs of remorse, repentance or change. I do not think that is wise. Although I am willing to sit with anyone and share Christ, I am not willing to allow certain people access to me or my family who have shown no repentance nor willingness to make amends for horrible things they have done. I do not have a heart filled with animosity, to use Wade’s phrase–more one of sadness and peace.
If I meet someone and she puts out her hand to shake mine, and, at the same time, steps on my toe purposefully, and I allow her to do it again the next time we meet, I can guarentee you that the third time her hand is put out I will place my foot out of danger. Same with some people, imo. I keep myself out of danger. So, if that’s what Wade meant by helping hands that heal, I wouldn’t agree with that.
@ Diane:
Yes, that makes sense.
My therapist has long told me that a traumatized person needs to stay away from situations that remind them of the abuse. It’s a way to make a level path so weakness can heal rather than be further damaged. PTSD vets shouldn’t see war films. Numo doesn’t listen to sermons. Anon 1 stays completely away from toxic people, no matter who/where. Jeanette and I left long-term damaging relationships with mothers. As you say, pulling back the stomped foot is a way of keeping out of danger. When a person has vulnerabilities, there are going to be more dangers.
@ Anon 1:
Yeah, when the pastor has “power over” and gets to tell us what God wants/thinks, a particular type will “feel called”. If the position were redefined as church housekeeper, with commensurate job description, the problems would melt away.
It is weird to me how the last 30 years has grown an abnormal number of these sorts of leaders in every field across the nation. They are running our banks, big corps, universities, and spread throughout our gov’t.
I think it’s from the fluoride in our water 🙂
I am going to bed. Thanks for indulging me today. Thanks, too, to Bridget. Goodnight!
“It is weird to me how the last 30 years has grown an abnormal number of these sorts of leaders in every field across the nation. They are running our banks, big corps, universities, and spread throughout our gov’t. ”
Now you are talking my game. I saw it in my business which took me everywhere….a huge transition started occuring and I would say over the course of about 10 years I started seeing it almost enmasse in many different quarters. A transition from basic competence to certain personality qualities being valued. It has always been that way to some extent but it was overwhelmingly becoming the norm. The personality qualities could be charisma, yes man, etc. But the value changed and competence was less valued. In fact, it was almost viewed with suspicion if the person did not have the right personality.
A
“…the righteousness of God” with “the sanctification” process causes a number of problems. Whaddayathink?
– Patrice
hmmm…
Hey, Patrice!
Da short skinny?
-snicker-
God can not fix what is broken from the Garden disobedience.
What?
He can arrest the effects, but not the cause.
Alas, Man, by his disobedience within the Garden was broken beyond repair.
(sadface)
Fast forward…
Some 1656 years transpire.
…very bad stuff happened.
(Man is so fowled up by this time, that God has ta let the earth remove their oxygen. Ops! )
Yet a remnant was saved.
—> Still God was working to fulfill his Garden promise.
huh?
God would restore tranquility in heaven, and for Man, bruise the source of original problem: the Serpent.
That left Man. …And his fateful dilemma.
This, God signified what was to be done, –when He asked Abraham to sacrifice his son, Isaac. God would pay the price Himself. God would breath His Holy Spirit within those who believed, thus creating a living spirit, from a dead Garden “living soul” .
Sounds nice, huh?
God would place a new nature within Man, by the breath of His Holy Spirit.
Yehaaa!
The two natures, (old and new) would war and battle each other until death consumed the human body, thus the once dead ‘living soul, of the Garden, would have only the new nature, and God’s spirit within. Man would live with God –with a living soul, and a new nature, and a new Spirit, –God’s Spirit living within them selves for always.
For the believer, the battle of the two natures, is a continual reality, so sanctification in the believer, is a co-labored work , the man, with a new nature, and God’s Holy Spirit within rendering assistance. The Holy Spirit, being a down payment, of wonderful things to come, they being heirs of salvation, and all.
Alas! Man is not a robot, nor was he intended to b.
Rememba dis:
But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. –But God has revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God…Now we have received, not ‘the spirit of the world’, but ‘the spirit which is of God’; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God”
Is this ‘word’, a present and abiding hope?
You betcha!
*
[Side note]:
(No proverbial Calvinesta Cr@pperz, fo me.)
…Some Calvinists have a problem with this co-labor stuff, as it rains on their ‘Sovereignty’ faddish. Unfortunately with some, God is an all or nothing ‘Sovereignty’ kinda thingy.
Little do they really realize nor understand for that matter, –that God is faithfully at work within each and every believer, every dag-on-day, to both will, and to do for His good pleasure!
The word ‘depravity’, is tied to Man’s old nature;
one must be ever reminded, that if any woman, or any man be in Christ, they are a new creature (because of Christ within us) , behold, the old ‘IS’ passing, the new has come!
God, by His Holy Spirit, has so faithfully metered this to every believer.
I came that they might have ‘life’ -Jesus
*
My suggestion to you would be to… well, gonna havta ask you ta dump da garbage within. OK? It soooo…does not become you! Nurse a hurt of long ago? Nada. Painful as it was, painful as it is now,
(I know. I’ve been there, too!)
It is time ta b strong enough ta leave da bozo’s and da deep hurtz they caused ya…
A brand new day?
Give um ta Jesus, until they stick.
(you heard me!)
–ta Jesus’ lov’in hands!
He’s a big boy…
He certainly knowz how ta gather his lit’l ‘Chicks’.
(grin)
ha ha!
Ize a pray’in for ya.
You Matter.
Sopy
____
Notes:
* Dating the Flood. Genesis 5:3-29 and 7:11 show that 1,656 years transpired between the creation of Adam and the Flood of Noah’s day. Genesis 5:3 shows that Adam was 130 when Seth was born. 1656 comes from adding up the age of each bible patriarch at the birth of his son, plus the age of Noah at the time of the Flood…
;~)
—
@ Sopwith: Thanks for your care and prayer. I’m ok. I’ve let the bozos go, given them to God to handle. But I cannot ignore the result of their damaging actions because it is written across my body in the form of autoimmune disease and across my mind through the remnants of complex PTSD. I nurse remaining wounds because when I don’t, I relapse. The wounds are mere scars on my soul, though, because of God’s love–whoop!
Similarly, when someone has brain damage and paralysis after, say, a building fell on him during an earthquake, it would be foolish to “let it go” rather than acknowledge and understand the damage and tend oneself carefully. God almost never removes physical damage even when restored by His/Her love.
My therapist worked at the Detroit vet hospital for ten years and says that those who come back from war with severe cases of PTSD most often went to war bearing the extra burden of abusive childhoods on top of “more than usual” exposure to death/ suffering while in the field. The amount of permanent damage (that which remains after healing takes its long slow course) is related to time/types/intensity of traumatic experience.
I was trashed for a long time starting quite young. I am a domestic war vet. You are correct, the consequences are ugly as garbage, as are the curled hands, floppy legs and unbidden twitches/shakes that can come from being smashed by a building. That’s how it goes sometimes.
My hope is that the love of God shines through this ravaged temple, made brighter by the contrast.
Pathological people have taken over the “church”(I know some will disagree).Whether they are congregants, nursery workers, Bible study Leaders,pastors, elders,etc. The real believers(a small minority) have been duped by these people. As long as we live in this world, I don’t see any of this changing. At one point, I was hopeful in maybe finding a homechurch and that would fix the problem, but the pathologicals are their too. They are in places were they can be in total control and worshiped by others. So what does a real believer do at this point. Unless the real believers start leaving the churches and find each other, nothing will change.
Patrice, Thanks so much for your comments. They remind me of someone I met a few years back who taught me much of what you are saying. She is trained in such things so could even show me brain patterns of those with PSTD, etc. I was astonished at the physical trauma and the toll it takes on the body. Now with brain health becoming popular we can measure the effects of trauma, stress and how it prematurely kills people. This stuff is serious business.
So, it is not only ok to avoid triggers but necessary for healing. I always thought being a victim was embarrassing and one should have enough intellect to get over it and move on even if the abusers never admitted their guilt. The worse part for people can be all the enablers like those people who walked past when Kitty Genovese was being murdered right out in the open. It is unthinkable. But it happens all the time in abuse situations. People not only end up blaming the victim but looking the other way.
Forgiveness does not automatically mean reconciliation or fellowship. It can mean giving up the right to revenge. It does not mean giving up the right to justice if a crime was committed, either (SGM!)
What your step father said about your dad is so typical. I heard it all the time in the seeker world where they spit out people like watermelon seeds. They would say, “Well, look at all the people brought to Christ! You can’t take some incidents like that where we do not have all the facts”. (This is always an excuse cos they don’t want facts and discount first person testimonies anyway. Besides, I question the premise that folks are being “brought to Christ’. How do we know they are not being brought to a system of social structure and entertainment?)
So, I just politely ask if creating roadkill of our own is necessary to building the kingdom. It would seem Jesus would frown on such things since we know what He thought of the religious leaders of His time who were doing the same thing.
Are we really discussing “Christianity”? That is what blows me away.
This is why they have to deny it. They know it does not fit. Unless they are Reformed, then God willed it so that is a whole other area that is so bizarre I can hardly wrap my head around it. Yes, we have to give them over to God but we don’t have to hang around with them. And we can and should warn others about them.
One thing about your comments that speaks to me is that, even so, you love the Triune God. I can imagine the journey that took.
I tell people all the time that I will never defend a church or a certain leader but I will defend Jesus all day long. (Even though He does not need me to!)
Anon 1, Patrice, Stormy –
I’m pretty much convinced that anyone who thinks they are called to lead, or is told that they are leader material, should NEVER LEAD a church. The Church isn’t in need of leaders. Leaders will contend (engage in a competiton or campaign in order to win or achieve) with Jesus. Leaders think that they are leading “for” Jesus, but they end up leading to win for, and to, themselves. I have met very few leaders who are actually “servants.”
As a Baptist, I have always believed in the priesthood of each and every believer and that we are all equal. That leads to an impulse to have a democratically organized church, with the laity making the decisions. The idea is that, if we are all praying and seeking the guidance of the HS, together we will make better decisions than any individual would make. (There is now research that supports the idea that groups generally make better decisions than individuals.)
But even in the most democratically organized church, there always have been people who wanted to have the pastor make some decision or other, or refer it to the deacons (or elders), rather than make the decision as a congregation. And to stay democratic requires that the pastor or deacons or elders emphatically indicate that those decisions belong to the congregation and not comment in their role as pastor, deacon or elder, but only as a member of the congregation. Of course, that means the pastor generally should not comment at all.
“I cannot ignore the result of their damaging actions because it is written across my body in the form of autoimmune disease and across my mind through the remnants of complex PTSD.” – Patrice
*
Patrice,
Hey,
Thanx for your comments.
I am astonished at the physical trauma and the toll it must take on you.
I will try to understand.
(sadface)
I have a friend who was mis-diagnosed and given drugs for several years for depression, (as she tells it) it wasn’t until she was gang raped at fourteen on a walk home, and admitted to the hospital because of attempted suicide afterwards, that the doctors there came to the conclusion the the former doctors had mis-diagnosed her condition.
Apparently, she did not need the drugs at all.
(she explained what the drugs had done to her, it wasn’t pretty.)
To make a long story short, she is now a wife, and proud mother of three, well adjusted, and stronger in her faith, than anyone I know.
Wow!
The damage must still be there, but I have never ever heard her speak of it in any other tone other than, thanksgiving to God!
Unbelievable, to be sure, but a true story never-the-less.
I kid you not!
She has told me many times, that bad things happened to her, but that God has been forever faithful to her.
How can that b. ?!?
(Is she nutz, or simply on to something wonderful?)
My faith will never b the same.
What a testimony.
What a witness.
She is a dynamic witness to everyone who knows her.
(Just thought you would like to know.)
You are more than welcome for the kind words, and prayers. (chump change, to b sure, but I can try, can’t I ?)
You matter.
Mucho Blessings! ☺
Sopy
—
“The damage must still be there, but I have never ever heard her speak of it in any other tone other than, thanksgiving to God!”
I wonder what her journey was to this place that you speak of Sopy? We are all on the journey and at different places in that journey. I hope she was not thankful to God for the actual wrong and sometimes evil circumstances, but for the way that God used what was meant for evil instead for our good and and His glory. My guess (only) is that your friend has had a journey in her walk with God to the refined state she is in at this time. Jesus never leaves us or forsakes us. His sheep know His voice and He has not lost even one that is His.
Bridget wrote:
Amen, Bridget.
@ Anon 1:
“I always thought being a victim was embarrassing and one should have enough intellect to get over it and move on even if the abusers never admitted their guilt.” Perfect summary lol
It’s de rigueur for humans in general, I think, a defense mechanism against the reality that we sometimes do terrible things to each other. We want the victims to either die, so we can martyr them, or shut up and get over it so that we can go back to pretending that it couldn’t possibly happen in our backyards.
“They would say, “Well, look at all the people brought to Christ! You can’t take some incidents like that where we do not have all the facts”.” Yup
It’s a fascinating issue, though, isn’t it? We all do right things and wrong things and right things for wrong reasons. I conjecture that there isn’t much left of my dad in heaven, if all the dross was burned away, hah, but that doesn’t mean good stuff didn’t occur via him. People came from thousands of miles to attend his funeral. Afterwards, I stood in line beside my mother for three full hours, hearing stories about all the good things my father did–healing relationships, bringing people to Christ, visiting grandparents until death and then leading healing funerals, solving spiritual crises, bringing fallen kids back home, on and on and on. How does one pat together a mind/heart reeling from that?
The primary tool my father/mother used on us sibs is that if we told, we’d “destroy the ministry of the Lord”. Which is the nastiest POS that one can make up, partly because it carried a smidgeon of truth, and partly because it aligned our small bleeding selves against God himself.
These two items, “But good is done too!” and “You will destroy the ministry of the Lord!” are also the central accusations against the fine people of Wartburg Watch. One might also add, “God will fix it if you genuinely want him to (and he always does it quietly!).” It’s an oldold story, not at all original.
My conclusion is this: Yes, God uses anything available–He/She’s amazing that way, but that doesn’t mean the best gets done. Good things done by a bad man will always be a little shallow, a little infected, and little awry. Not that God doesn’t often straighten it out as it spreads into the world but why would we want to give second-best when the absolute-best streams through God’s hands every day, profusely, generously?
When people eventually find out, a lot of the second-best is drained away, leaving devastation. But that doesn’t mean we don’t lance systemic infections. Because God wants us to learn something much more profound than those second-best goods. It is the lesson of directly facing our constant tendency to power-over, of recognizing/analyzing the ease many of us have in colluding with it, and of openly and compassionately aiding those damaged by it. And that kind of lesson is a first-rate good that makes for a richer deeper life for everyone, including those devastated by the failures and those standing on the sidelines, watching.
So in the end, it is as you say, “…I will defend Jesus all day long (even though He does not need me to!)”
Does that sound accurate?
Bridget wrote:
Bridget, I interviewed a woman a few years ago who was spiritually abused by mega church she went to work for thinking it would be a wonderful place. She was a single mom basically thrown to the curb because she would not go along with some nefarious doings so she was termed “not a team player” and sent packing. She told me she was astonished at the unethical and immoral goings on behind stage that were seen as normal by most who worked there. She said it was like being in an episode of the Twilight Zone. She kept making the comment that what she saw there would never be allowed to continue in corporate America because there would be lawsuits galore! But churches are immune from labor laws.
But here is the real cruelty as she was frantically trying to rebuild after losing her home, etc, she was speaking with an old “friend” she thought might be safe from the mega and telling her about the damage done to her financially and spiritually journey afterwards. Her friend said to her, “See this was a good thing because now you are a better Christian!” And this friend continues to go there.
There is this thinking out there. And it is like turning the knife once again.
I keep telling people there is a huge difference when unbelievers abuse and hurt you vs when long time believers do it. Especially, believers who are paid to be believers. If long time Christians are not safe people, then what?
“See this was a good thing because now you are a better Christian”
This person lacks compassion and has an I don’t really care attitude.
“If long time Christians are not safe,then what?”
My belief is that these type are superficial people and are not Christians.
Stormy, Here is what I will say: They do not exhibit the fruits of the spirit which are indicators of sanctification. Therefore, I should wary of them as far as trust/fellowship is concerned.
Be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.
Patrice,
I too enjoy reading your comments. I myself have a long and checkered past. Over the last decade and reading through the Bible, I no longer come to the same conclusions as much of Western theology holds to. I think a great deal of it got hijacked by Augustine’s manichean ideas & gnostic ethos.
@ Patrice:
@ Patrice:
Thank you for so clearly articulating the issue. So few, especially inside the ‘church bubble’ understand or even want to understand.
Patrice wrote:
Yes…although I have not been able to completely piece the fragments of memory together yet from being molested when I was 2 1/2 by our landlady/aunt-in-law’s son, I have been able to piece together enough to see that my mom (who was buds with the perp) used this tactic on me…a t 2 1/2, I already loved Jesus – already knew him, and my mother essentially told me that if I even told anybody, it would hurt God…..that little piece of twistedness took more than 40 years to unlock enough for my mind to even acknowsledge it happened.
Right up until I cut her off, her attitude toward the second molestor (older cousin ongoing fron 7 – 12 yrs old) has been to ask me why on earth I would do that and for him, it is ‘poor little guy.’ So yeah, she is too toxic….
Hmm…an interesting thing about the emotional trauma of childhood abuse regarding the PTSD is that even when you’ve healed tremendously and are doing so much better than you ever have, triggers still happen. In reading these comments and thinking about them, I found myself in tears. Grief still wells up at unexpected times. Perhaps it is a reaction to reading the words of someone whose story seems to run so close to your – the validation of the emotions – the damage – can be overwhelming (in a good way 🙂 ), especailly when it not your normal.
I am grateful for this forum a this community. I almost feel safe….
@ Sopwith:
Hey, sopy, kind words and prayers are never chump change at my house
Thinking of your lovely friend. It is possible, if she had a safe nurturing childhood and loving family/friends, and if this horrible experience was the “only” one she’s experienced, that she could work her way to the other side and mostly recover. It is also possible that God simply healed her–it happens rarely but that doesn’t mean never.
It is more likely that she’s been able to compartmentalize the damage. It generally isn’t a decision you get to make—your subconscious just finds a way to shove it aside so you can live your life. If she has done this, it’ll likely stay out of awareness until a heavy stress occurs. So if you are around her much, and if she hits a wall of stress, keep an eye on her.
@ 56 years a Baptist, mostly SBC:
Yup, it’s hard work to practice democracy. There are people who simply are too indolent to do the difficult slow work of mutual decision-making. There are others who want power and will grab whatever they can, even if inch by inch.
The same issues are in our nation. Since we haven’t taken democracy seriously for a long time, governing has reverted to a form of soft fascism. The authoritarian structure being touted by some Christians these days is actually just direct fascism hah. If the two combine via the bizarre ideas of Reconstructionism, democracy is so over.
In my opinion, democracy is an exercise in Christianity. Learning how to love each other enough to cooperate together for the good of all and each. But it won’t work unless the people formally agree to it. And then it’s still hard work.
@ Jeannette Altes:
Yes, one can heal a lot and discover that life actually is worth living, after all, and that it is even streaked with joy. But triggers still cause flashbacks (even if less often and less intensely as time passes), oldold lies can still haunt one’s mind, and the physical organism is made frail by the years of a constantly rushing adrenalin.
Recognizing it offers a weird kind of comfort, doesn’t it? We do our best and what’s left is just what’s left and not yet another version of the same old failures. Now we can finally be still and know that God is God. And having someone write it out reduces the loneliness, allowing normal grief that is also relief to flow freely.
I am not all that useful these days, so I’m glad when I am. Good night.
Brain Wax Removal:”Faith Comes By Hearing The Word Of God?”
@ Bridget:
“The damage must still be there, but I have never ever heard her (my friend) speak of it in any other tone other than, thanksgiving to God!” -Sopy
“I hope she was not thankful to God for ‘the actual wrong’ and ‘sometimes evil circumstances’, but for the way that God used what was meant for evil instead for our good and and His glory.” -Bridget
Yes, she (my friend) tells of the evil that ‘PEOPLE’ did to her.
(sadface)
Yet, she talks overwhelmingly of The Faithfulness Of Her Lord.
hmmm…
What a journey, indeed!
I find it interesting that she (my friend) has had absolutely no exposure to Neo-Calvinism.
She reads her bible,
like William Tyndale suggests,
She (my friend) even believes what she reads…
Imagine that!
Faith comes by hearing the Word of God!
R-e-a-d. Your. Bible?
You may even hear the rest of the story!
*
“Jesus never leaves us or forsakes us.” – Bridget
“His sheep know His voice and He has not lost even ‘one’ that is His.” – Bridget
Yahooooooo!
Sopy
—
Patrice, You have certainly been “useful” to me. God Bless you.
@ Patrice:
“I am not all that useful these days, so I’m glad when I am.” – Patrice
Patrice, I am very grateful that you are part of TWW community. Your wisdom and insight have been so helpful to me – thank you!
🙂