EChurch@Wartburg – 3.3.13

Welcome to a Gathering of EChurch@Wartburg

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Morning Sun

Here Is Our Order of Worship

If you are new to EChurch, please click on this link for an explanation
Today's prayers taken from the book The Divine Hours by Phyllis Tickle (Autumn/Winter)

Concluding Prayer of the Church (p.526)

Lord God, almighty and everlasting Father,
you have brought me in safety to this new day:
Preserve me with your mighty power,
that I might not fall into sin, nor be overcome by adversity;
in all I do direct me to the fulfilling of your purpose;
through Jesus Christ my Lord.
Amen

The Prayer Appointed for the Week (p.559)

Almighty God, whose Son our Savior Jesus Christ is the light of the world:
Grant that your people, illumined by your Word and sacraments,
may shine with the radiance of Christ's glory,
that He may be known, worshipped, and obeyed to the ends of the earth;
through Jesus Christ our Lord,
who with you and the Holy Spirit lives and reigns,
one God, now and forever.
Amen

Scripture Reading: Hebrews 12:11 (NASB Bible Gateway)

All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.

The Prayer Appointed for the Week (p.303)
Almighty God
gives us all the grace to cast away the works of darkness,
and put on the armor of light,
now in this time of mortal life in which your Son Jesus Christ
came to visit us in great humility;
that in the last day,
when He shall come again in his glorious majesty to judge both the living and the dead,
we may rise to the life immortal;
through Him who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit,
one God, now and forever.
Amen.

Benediction (p.524)

Direct me, O Lord, in all my doings with your most gracious favor,
And further me with your continual help;
that in all my work begun. continued and ended in you,
I may glorify your holy name
and finally, by your mercy,
obtain everlasting life through Jesus Christ my Lord
Amen

Comments

EChurch@Wartburg – 3.3.13 — 69 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Today’s prayers taken from the book The Divine Hours by Phyllis Tickle (Autumn/Winter)

    I see you are using material from Phyllis Tickle. I have not looked into her teachings until I saw that you are recommending her book. I recognized the name right off from many warnings regarding her. I have posted a few for your review. Can you tell me why you would recommend her when so many are warning against her regarding her ‘teachings’? I am going to look much closer as to what she professes, as I hope you will also.

    I await your response.

    Thank you.
    Brian M.
    [[[MOD: removed email address]]]

    http://www.alittleleaven.com/2009/05/whats-being-taught-at-rob-bell.html

    http://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=1785

    http://kimolsen.wordpress.com/tag/phyllis-tickle/

    [[[MOD: Folks, let Wade address this one.]]]


  2. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I chose the prayers from the book. I did not recommend her teaching. Tell me what is wrong with the prayers first.


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    Brian,

    I am with Dee on this one. I know nothing about Phyllis Tickle, and I would not have known the prayers posted here by Dee were her’s unless you pointed it out. I can appreciate your concerns over Phyllis’ theology, but there is a principle that I would like to articulate below that I hope makes you understand why it may not be as much as a concern for me (or Dee) as it is you. It is 7:15 a.m. and I am about to go into our prayer meeting here at Emmanuel before the first of our Sunday morning services. I don’t have the time right now to look into Phyllis’ beliefs, and I have no reason to doubt your concerns. You obviously know what you are talking about and you have taken the time to look into it yourself. I trust you. But here is the principle for why I don’t have as great of a concern as you for her prayers being posted here by Dee.

    I read the prayers. The words are sound expressions of one’s emotions and desires. I see no lack of orthodoxy in them. They are an appeal to God for His mercy, grace and a greater revelation of His Son.

    I have known many orthodox pastors whose lives away from the church (and pulpit) were filled with immorality. One of my SBC pastor friends was arrested for soliciting and undercover police officer. One of my SBC pastor friends was having multiple affairs. One of my SBC pastor friends was stealing from the church coffers.

    All these men prayed during their ministries. They prayed for the sick. They prayed for the brokenhearted. They prayed for people in need. Prayers are not effective because the character or theology of the petitioner is completely perfect. Prayers are effective because sinners are petitioning a gracious God. The prayers are sound, and the people who are praying them are not, and by “the people praying,” I mean “us.”

    Thanks for the heads up about this woman, but I think the prayers stand for themselves.


  4. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Those prayers look like they come from the Episcopal or Anglican Book of Common Prayer. They look very familiar to me – a lifelong Anglican – and I doubt they were written by Phyllis Tickle. No time to research that this morning, but I am sure a search engine can do it if someone wants to double check.


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    Wade,

    What a lovely point it was for me to hear at the end of your sermon: “A fruit of tender timing.” This point reminds me to trust him without knowing what comes next.

    Loved the music video in his time. Beautiful.


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    Hello Brian:

    I respectfully submit that Phyllis Tickle’s views are a little more nuanced than the less-than-scholarly sources you referenced above suggest. Those sources just feature diatribes. By contrast, the many articles about her that have been published by established reputable Christian and mainstream media probably more accurately portray the views of both her supporters and detractors.

    However, I agree that the totality of her work is not at issue if no one intended to endorse her material generally and she didn’t write the prayers in question.

    If you’re interested, this is an explanation of the book, The Divine Hours, that was referenced in today’s service.

    http://www.phyllistickle.com/fixed-hour-prayer/

    It seems like a good resource for Christians in general to me.


  7. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I have listened to this particular sermon more than once. I have also appreciated the answers to Brian. I am so thankful to Jesus Christ who is always there when no one else is during times of affliction.


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Phyllis Tickle organized/edited prayers from the BCP and writings from other places in the prayer books called The Divine Hours which I highly recommend and use myself.

    (Longtime reader, NC native, librarian, etc.)


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    “I have known many orthodox pastors whose lives away from the church(and pulpit)were filled with immorality” I would not call them pastors then nor Christians for that matter…

    “All these men prayed during their ministries.They prayed for the sick.They prayed for the brokenhearted.They prayed for the people in need.Prayers are not effective because character or theology of the petitioner is completely perfect.”

    In doing so, they pretended to be someone they weren’t. Instead of stepping down right from the get go, they continued to play the part of a real Christian. They were actors through and through. If someones life is just one big contradiction to Christianity, then they are not a Christian,whatsoever.


  10. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Kari

    Thank you. I have been at church and lunch and planned to make a similar comment. I use prayers from a broad swath of sources. I love the Divine Hours. I do not think most people understand how it is set up and how it is excerpted froom the Book of Common Prayer.  Frankly, many people could benefit from being reminded to pray thorughout the day.

    This is always a problem. I have used a prayer or two from Henri Nouwen and have been called on the carpet for that as well. I love Nouwen’s The Prodigal and his book on leadership.


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    @ stormy:
    Stormy,
    Is there a level of sin that we can use to say that someone’s life is a big contradiction. Are you saying that to be a Christian one must be perfect or is your point that these men committed egregious sins and therefore demonstrate their lack of salvation. If the latter is the case who decides what is egregious? I seem to remember several places in the NT where believers are reminded that if they violate on portion of the law they are guilty of the whole law.

    This is not to condone these means behavior, and I sincerely doubt that was Wade’s point. The point was that their prayer was effective inspire of their in perfections because of the perfection of Jesus Christ. If the effectiveness of prayer is dependant on the righteous perfection of people then we all are in real trouble for each one of us should only be praying as Peter said, Go away from me Lord for I am a sinful man among sinful people.

    Praise God for his Son who is righteous and gives His children the right and privilege to approach Him confidently.


  12. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I can’t seem to get any of the video to play, songs or sermon. I am using my android phone but have not had problems before. Anyone have any idea?


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    Stormy,

    What Mitch said. 🙂


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    Mitch,

    The videos worked for me just now. Not sure what the problem could be. Maybe you should try again.


  15. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Are you saying that one must be perfect” Of course not.Where did you read that I believe that way. The fact is that you didn’t because I never said that.

    My point is that when someones life proves to be one big contradiction(your whole life is a lie) and they continue to purposely cover up without having any remorse or wanting to change, then that person is not who he says he is. If you only “repent” when you are caught then it is only because you got caught.Not because you felt remorse over your behavior. Just because someone calls himself a Christian, it doesn’t always make it so. The fact that I even have to explain this just blows my mind.


  16. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Brian

    Back from church and lunch with my small group friends. I would urge you to take a look at Tickle’s two books:The  Divine Hours. You will find the material based on BCP. It is a grouping of prayers based on Scriptures, etc. One is encouraged to pray throughout the day-something I know that I need to be encouraged to do so.

    Here is what I propose. Maybe you could get a copy from your library or I could send you my copy of the book for your review. If you could show me where I am mistaken in my assessment of these prayers, I would be happy to issuee a retraction.

    Because I copied these prayers directly from the book, I am obligated to record the book due to copyright laws. This is merely a form of footnoting, not an endorsement. Does this help?

     


  17. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Wade

    I shall send you a copy of the book for you to see. Thank you for your kind comment.


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    Mitch

    I am sending you comment to. GBTC


  19. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Stormy,

    “Just because someone calls himself a Christian, it doesn’t always make it so. The fact that I even have to explain this just blows my mind.”

    I don’t think that is what Mitch (or I) were thinking when we commented. We concede what you are saying. “Just because someone calls himself a Christian doesn’t make him a Christian” is a given.

    The point I thought you were making in your original comment (and must have misunderstood, for which I apologize) was that an “actor” or a “hypocrite” or a “heretic” cannot be used by God to accomplish good. The context of this discussion was a prayer offered by someone who may not be orthodox theologically. My point (and Mitch’s) is that nobody is completely free of sin when we do what we do for God. What makes our ministry effective is God’s grace in us, not our perfection. But again, we concede that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is a Christian. However, God used Balaam’s ass to speak a prophetic word, and He can also use imperfect people to write excellent prayers, sing wonderful songs, and even perform effective ministry. I hope that what I have written makes sense to you as much as what you have written makes sense to me.

    Thanks for your comments!


  20. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ponder’in Eternal Values: “Faith, Hope, n’ Love…”

    HowDee,

    hmmm…

    Sopy: “…Itz dark in here… Jesus! where R U?”

    Jesus: “right here.”

    Sopy: “where?  Iza can’t see…”

    Jesus:  “…right here…I am holding your widdle hand…”

    Sopy: “Oh…” …fer a minute there, Lord,  -thought I was in deep do-do. -snicker-

    (Whew!)

    Sopy: “…now for ‘A Spoon Full Of Sugar?’ hum, hum, hum…”

    (grin)

    hahahahahaha

    S“㋡”py


  21. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Is there a level of sin that we can use to say that someone’s life is a big contradiction.”

    Good question, Mitch. One we need to really think, pray and discuss. If a person is a professing believer and continues in an affair (even if not a pastor) or continues molesting children, would you say that person has the indwellling Holy Spirit? At some point pretty soon, would they not be convicted at how wrong they are and have serious sorrow and turn away?

    Let’s say you knew the pastor was having an affair and he came to pray over your loved one who is terminally ill. Would you really be comfortable with that? Would you not want to tell him to step down and get his life in order before he ministers to anyone. Are we pretending before God none of that matters?

    I think 1 John is an excellent resource on this topic. Most folks stop at chapter one because they like it says, if anyone says does not sin he is a liar” but they forget to read the rest.

    Why is the dichotomy “sinless perfection/reprobate”?

    Why isn’t it “sinless perfection/sinning less and less as we grow in Holiness”?

    I personally do not get it. Are we to be filled with the Holy Spirit or not…walking in the light…yes stumbling….we all have bad thoughts….but seriously? Living in the dark can be Christianity? All it tells me is we should not really ever trust Christians. They are like the world only forgiven when they continue in such actionable sin. It just seems like cheap grace to me.


  22. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Prayers are not effective because the character or theology of the petitioner is completely perfect.Prayers are effective because sinners are petitioning a gracious God.”

    My point is again that you were the one to bring up these “pastors” who were far from God, and then commented with the quote I have here. I’m not talking about “imperfect people” but those who claim to know him but their actions show differently. My comments were based on what you wrote which it was worded as though these “pastors” you knew were believers.


  23. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I have anothre question. Would you want CJ Mahaney coming to pray over your loved one? Why discuss any of the issues we discuss here if such sins are not a big deal and there is no real moral standard? Does CJ Mahaney read the level of contradiction?


  24. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “I’m not talking about “imperfect people” but those who claim to know him but their actions show differently.”

    Bingo. They get on stages week after week and present themselves as being something they are not.


  25. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee, I am going to check out that book. I am not much of one for written prayers but Phyllis Tickle has been called an emergent heretic all over the evangelical blogosphere. I know I will probably disagree with some of her stuff but I get the distinct impression a lot of it has to do with her being female.


  26. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “It just seems like cheap grace to me” Exactly. So I guess we can now say that Hitler( I have heard that he was Catholic) was a Christian. Never mind how many times he committed murder over and over again without remorse.


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    anon1

    Please make sure you get The Divine Hours. That is what I use. I will be surprised if you find it off base. However, I can be taught.


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    I like Maya Angelou’s quote and find it to be true.

    “When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.”


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    @ Mitch:

    Our extensive staff (3) all use iPhones/iPads. If installing the Vimeo/YouTube apps doesn’t fix things, let me know and I’ll find an Android setup to see what’s up.


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    dee wrote:

    Mitch

    I am sending you comment to. GBTC

    Dee, I am not sure what you mean by this.


  31. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Well, to comment on echurch today, it blessed me sooooo very much. Thanks for making this wonderful way to worship Our Lord and Savior available. God bless us all!


  32. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Stormy and Anon,
    I am sure that this question will start a firestorm but here goes anyway. Since there seems to be an objection to cheap grace, my question would be exactly what is the price that any person pays to receive grace?

    I really don’t like that phrase, I know where it comes from and know the man was a great hero of the faith. None the less, grace by its very nature must be free. If there is anything I do to merit grace, no matter how cheap or elaborate then it is not grace at all. That to me is the wonder and beauty of Grace it costs me nothing but benefits me everything. Conversely Grace cost my Lord everything, a price he willingly paid so that I might belong to Him.

    Now before all the usual charges of Lawless Christianity or faith without works ect ect come flying across the net let me just as Paul clarify my position. Grace is not a license to sin as those who are redeemed by Jesus we have the Holy Spirit and can resist sin and can choose to walk in the spirit. This is what we are told to do and are able to do, the problem is that we are not always able to do this for several reasons.

    As for those mentioned who chose to continue an affair or who molest children and conviction. My question would be how long to any of you entertain sin before you repent? How many of us repeat the same sin over and over, continually having to come again to Our Lord asking for what he has already given.

    Our real problem here is some how we want to categorize our sin and struggle as some how not as bad as others. That illustrates our complete misunderstanding about sin.

    Now to finish up, I do think those actions disqualify a minister from performing as a minister but at the same time, I do not think sin somehow removes the effectiveness of prayer offered by them. I am trusting in the object (Jesus) of the prayer not the one offering that prayer.

    OK let the firestorm begin.


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    Great granny

    Welcome to TWW. I am so glad you liked E Church.It is meant to convey love and grace.


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    Oh Da Times, Day Are A’ Chang’in: “Mad As Hell, and Not Gonna Take It Anymore?

    HowDee,

    hmmm…

    Kirrrrrk!

    Program Director: Take 2, cue Howard.

    Howard Beale: “I don’t have to tell you things are bad. Everybody knows things are bad. It’s a depression. Everybody’s out of work or scared of losing their job. The dollar buys a nickel’s worth; banks are going bust; shopkeepers keep a gun under the counter; punks are running wild in the street, and there’s nobody anywhere who seems to know what to do, and there’s no end to it.”

    “We know the air is unfit to breathe and our food is unfit to eat. And we sit watching our TVs while some local newscaster tells us that today we had fifteen homicides and sixty-three violent crimes, as if that’s the way it’s supposed to be!”

    “We all know things are bad — worse than bad — they’re crazy.”

    “It’s like everything everywhere is going crazy, so we don’t go out any more. We sit in the house, and slowly the world we’re living in is getting smaller, and all we say is, ‘Please, at least leave us alone in our living rooms. Let me have my toaster and my TV and my steel-belted radials, and I won’t say anything. Just leave us alone. ‘ ”

    “Well, I’m not going to leave you alone.”

    “I want you to get mad!”

    “I don’t want you to protest. I don’t want you to riot. I don’t want you to write to your Congressman, because I wouldn’t know what to tell you to write. I don’t know what to do about the depression and the inflation and the Russians and the crime in the street.”

    “All I know is that first, you’ve got to get mad.”

    “You’ve gotta say, ‘I’m a human being, go#dammit! My life has value!’ ”

    “So, I want you to get up now. I want all of you to get up out of your chairs. I want you to get up right now and go to the window, open it, and stick your head out and yell,”

    “I’m as mad as hell,

    and I’m not going to take this anymore!!”

    huh?

    S㋡py
    ___
    Ref: (1976) “Network” transcript : “Mad as hell…”


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    Mitch

    Sorry. I was addressing the comment about trouble with the Android and viewing the post.  The Guy Behind the Curtain ((GBTC) understands these things. I am a technopeasant.


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    @ dee:
    Oh, now that makes sense. I have updated all my stuff so let me see if I can get the videos to work now. Thanks


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    Mitch, someone who is a molester is a predator.Everything they do is calculated.Predators of any kind are not concerned with repenting but only concerned about getting away with their crimes.


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    Dee,
    everything works now. needed to update my apps.


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    Sopy

    Mad as hell! Yes, that says it.


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    Mitch

    I need to make sure I understood what you said. I am a Bonhoeffer fan,BTW! In fact, my friends and I were discussing this over lunch. Do you mean to say that the sin of serial pedophilia is the same as the man who steals a loaf of bread to feed his family? Or do you mean to say something else? I am a bit tired tonight so my insight monitor is barely functioning.


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    I want to add a little clarity to my last response to Stormy and Anon. First I saw a typo or an area that is unclear. We are now able to live by the Spirit, the problem is that often we choose not to or we are not full of the Spirit. So often we choose to live by our flesh rather than by the Spirit. Also, there seems to be real physiological and psychological problems that inhibit a persons ability to live by the Spirit.

    One last area that I think that many of us forget is that there is spiritual warfare going on and although we are saved we do have an enemy who wishes to devour us. All of these ad together to make things harder than they sound.

    Now in the case of me knowing that the pastor is having an affair and he shows up to pray for my dieing relative. My counter question is since I know about this affair, what have I done, have I followed scripture and confronted him concerning this area of sin or am I just sitting there judging him? Now if I have gone to him and he has blown me off, it seems as if there are several more steps to take.

    The real problem that I see in the SGM situation in particular is a misunderstanding of authority in ministry. Since people gave such a great level of authority to mere men, it really should be no surprise that the authority was abused. Is that not what people do? I am not making light of the situation in anyway. I think it is clearly sinful and is bringing shame on the Name of our Lord. I pray that justice will prevail on earth but I know it justice will prevail in Heaven. Also, I know that one thing God cares about is His name. He will not let His people sully His name without punishment.

    I really do not think any of us are very far apart on these issues although we may articulate them differently.


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    @ Mitch: Mitch I’m a Bonhoeffer fan too and interpret his view of cheap grace a little differently. I think he was responding to the “faith vs. works” debate, that underlies many discussions about Christianity, in saying that framing issues that way creates a false dichotomy.

    In other words if there’s no evidence of your faith in your life then whatever Grace you purport to have isn’t of much value.

    For instance, who cares if C.J. Mahaney’s books are doctrinally sound if he treats everyone around him like dirt.

    That’s just my take. I could be off as I don’t know all that much about how Lutherans interpret Grace generally.


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    Mitch wrote:

     GBTC
    Dee, I am not sure what you mean by this.

    That would be me. I restrict my comments as GBTC to tech issues and comment moderation and sometimes the ref who throws a yellow flag.


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    Mitch,

    Hey, 

    We were doing Grace & Love here.

    Wade was doing Patience and Wisdom in relation to anguish and suffering, and what ta do about it.

    What are U doing playing theological basketball?

    -snicker-

    thump, thump, thump…

    Your expecting us ta pull da stuff’in outa youze StrawMan?

    (grin)

    S“㋡”py


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    “Our real problem here is some how we want to categorize our sin and struggle as some how not as bad as others. That illustrates our complete misunderstanding about sin”

    That is what Mahaney was teaching. And why his logical outcome was that the victims were sinners, too. That thinking becomes moral chaos. Christians would have a lower standard of moral justice than the world in that thinking paradigm.

    And while I am not accusing you of anything I am simply asking to stop and think where your thinking leads. Some sins ARE worse than others. Why do we see lists of things in the NT that say “those who do such things will not enter the kingdom” OR that we should not associate with them that do these things. In 1 Corin 5 Paul makes it clear he was not talking about the world but believers who do such things. In Hebrews 10 the author tells them:

    26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

    The author was writing to believers being persecuted.

    Actually, I hear this “all sins are the same” from many in the Reformed movement and it really concerns me. it IS leading to moral chaos in that movement as seen by Driscoll and Mahaney. And those who are covering for them as if there is no real problem. It also led to SGM pastors telling victims they were bitter and sinful for wanting to call the authorities. After all,they are sinners too.

    Where is the moral standard? That pastor having an affair is the same as a pastor who overeats? I seriously have heard a YRR pastor say this.


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    Ok let me respond in reverse order here.
    Sopy,
    Not sure what you mean or what theological basketball is. I will say that if it is like regular basketball then I would not be a player.

    Dee and Marshall,
    I too have read Bonhoeffers “The Cost of Discipleship” (twice actually). Both times because they were required for a class that I was taking. It has been a few years since I last read that book and really other than the term Cheap Grace I cannot say that anything really stuck with me. My over all impression was that he used a lot of words to say very little. Also if i remember correctly he wrote this book in response to a particular situation in the German church pertaining to their handling of Hitler.

    I am glad that the book has helped you both as I know many people who found it helpful for their faith. I just really found it difficult to read. Perhaps I should give it another try when it is not an assignment.

    As far as my understanding of sin and grace I really prefer the apostle Paul over any man outside the Bible. I think the further we get from the there the more the idea gets distorted so with that in mind let me address your question Dee.

    thanks for letting me clarify rather than just making an assumption Dee. Your question involves a serial pedophile VS a man who must steal bread to feed his family. I assume you want to know if I think one is more sinful or evil than the other. I guess I would ask a few questions to clarify this situation. First, are we to judge one sin against another or should is sin judged against the righteousness of God? Second, does it take God less grace to forgive the sin of theft than it does the pedophiles sin? Third, Is there sin that Jesus did not die to forgive?

    Dee really the question is kind of a set up, the first man is a serial pedophile, is his sin less egregious to God if he is only a pedophile once? Also the second man steals bread to feed his starving family, if his family is starving is he justified in stealing more than bread? Lets say he breaks into your home and steals your tv to sell it to buy bread, does this make the sin any better or worse?

    Again for me the issue is how we look at sin, we want to categorize sin and prioritize it, usually to justify our own sinfulness. We see sin as actions a list of things not to do, I think that God sees sin as a state of being and the actions are simply indications or symptom of that state of being. Since we are sinful we sin. All sin is an affront to God. All sin makes us unacceptable as a matter of fact because of sin we can only be acceptable because Jesus has paid for our sin.

    Now in the real world that we live in, I do think we should deal with different sins and levels of evil differently. Is this not how our justice system is designed? The man who steals bread might very well get off with a ticket while the serial pedophile should find himself without the privilege of being in society.

    But I thought we were discussing sin, that is the point from which I was making my comments. The comment that I made that started this was in relation to the questions concerning the source of the prayers (which by the way, I found to be very edifying and Christ honoring). Perhaps I misunderstood Stormy’s earlier comment but, it sounded to me as if she felt that the prayer of a sinful Christian held no sway with God. My original point to to clarify what what point of sin do ones prayers lose our Fathers hearing.

    I am sorry that my discussion of Grace became such a radical idea and I had no intention of hijacking today’s worship.


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    “Again for me the issue is how we look at sin, we want to categorize sin and prioritize it, usually to justify our own sinfulness.”

    How does pointing out professing believer pedophiles justify my own sin? That is where your thinking leads us.

    ” We see sin as actions a list of things not to do,”.

    That is because we do not read minds. We view sin as words and actions. That is how it manifests itself. It starts with thoughts and if we are not abiding in Christ with the Holy Spirit we do not stop it there, it manifests itself into an action. The lists we are provided in the NT are actionable.

    ” I think that God sees sin as a state of being and the actions are simply indications or symptom of that state of being.”

    Does God see those who believe, trust Jesus Christ as Savior as nothing but sinners?

    ” Since we are sinful we sin. All sin is an affront to God. All sin makes us unacceptable as a matter of fact because of sin we can only be acceptable because Jesus has paid for our sin.”

    Basically what I am hearing in your comment is you believe we carry the imputed guilt of Adams sin. That is why we are on such different wave lengths.

    “I am sorry that my discussion of Grace became such a radical idea and I had no intention of hijacking today’s worship.”

    Grace is not a radical idea to me. It is just not an excuse for heinous sin, either. I really do believe we can become new creatures in Christ and have godly sorrow for horrible sin fighting the flesh daily and I believe the Holy Spirit is our Advocate in that. When my sin hurts others


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    Salvation is the free grace gift of God through the death and resurrection of Jesus the Christ. All we must do to be saved is to accept the gift through faith that the gift is real. Once we are saved, our sins, whatever and whenever, are forgiven.

    We who have been forgiven are to strive to live a life that shows Jesus to the rest of the world and to each other. Matthew 25 provides some ways in which we are to do that, in addition to trying to live in obedience to the expectations of God on our lives, which means to avoid sin against our neighbors as Jesus defined our neighbors. That means we love and esteem them as we do ourselves.

    So the issue is not that we sin, but that we make two mistakes — we do not love the neighbor and we do not witness to Jesus. The more egregious the harm to our neighbor, the more damaging to our witness. That is why there is a difference between stealing to feed a starving family when one has been trying to find work and cannot and has exhausted the available sources of assistance, and destroying the personality of a small child for one’s own pleasure. I would note that Jesus put a particularly high cost on harming a little child.

    The above is why “sin sniffing” does not belong in the church. We all need to be living a life that witnesses to the forgiveness of God and the life of love that Jesus taught us to pursue. And, quite frankly, Jesus laid out a cure for those who cannot control themselves, a cure we call self-mutilation, which we generally find abhorrent and do not do. So incarceration and similar penalties are the treatment of choice.


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    @ An Attorney:

    So a Christian finding themselves in continuing or repeated commission of harm to another should turn themselves in. And if they will not, then the church must act to protect the victims and potential victims of those who cannot avoid harming others.


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    Anon
    First let me say that I do not really want to get in a tit for tat here. Also I am really surprised that there is so much push back on my comments. Perhaps I am being unclear or I misunderstood the original conversation. Despite not wanting to tit for tat, taking your statements as you made them will probably be the best way to respond. Also let me first start of by saying I am attempting to discuss sin from the point of view of God not from the point of man or the U.S. justice system.

    How does pointing out professing believer pedophiles justify my own sin? That is where your thinking leads us.
    Pointing out a pedophiles sin does not equal justification of your own sin but if you point to his sin with the idea that he is a worse sinner than you or the bread thief than it could be because you prefer to think that your sin is not as bad as the pedophiles to God. If you personally are not doing that then I am not talking about you.

    We see sin as actions a list of things not to do,”.

    That is because we do not read minds. We view sin as words and actions. That is how it manifests itself. It starts with thoughts and if we are not abiding in Christ with the Holy Spirit we do not stop it there, it manifests itself into an action. The lists we are provided in the NT are actionable.

    Yes the list provided are actionable but they are neither listed by priority nor are they complete lists of sinful actions. We sin because of our sin nature period.

    Basically what I am hearing in your comment is you believe we carry the imputed guilt of Adams sin. That is why we are on such different wave lengths.

    Actually that is not my theological stance, but I do see where people get that interpretation. I believe that we have a nature that is inclined toward sin and an environment that inclines us toward sin. I think I once heard it described as we are bent (some more than others). At some point in our growth process we all choose to sin. I do not believe that anyone is guilty of the sin of Adam but we have inherited the consequences of His choice. Not really sure what that has to do with this discussion.

    Grace is not a radical idea to me. It is just not an excuse for heinous sin, either. I really do believe we can become new creatures in Christ and have godly sorrow for horrible sin fighting the flesh daily and I believe the Holy Spirit is our Advocate in that. When my sin hurts others

    You are making my point for me. Who gets to define the degree of sin that is heinous? In my mind God is the determiner and he has determined that all sin requires death. Only humans categorize sin and I really believe we do that because we want to look around and find someone who is a little worse than we are and point out how “heinous” their sin is. Let me give you this illustration. When I was in the Army we used to have a joke about shinning boot. See when inspection was called you looked at everyones boots and made sure that the person inspected just before you had boots that looked a little worse than your own. This way as the inspector came down and saw the boots before yours, your boots would look better and perhaps he would either pass you over or commend you for the appearance of your boots. We want to d the same thing with sin. We want to compare our sin with that of others and say his is heinous. The problems is that God compares all of our sin to the righteousness of Jesus Christ. In that case even our small lack of polish appears as a major scuff.

    I agree, believers are new creatures and we can live by the power of the Holy Spirit and Grace is not a license to sin, as Paul said “should we sin so that Grace might about? NO!”. And I agree that the Holy Spirit is our advocate and also leads us to righteousness and convicts us of sin. My only real issue here was this idea that a sinful man could not offer a prayer heard by God.

    I hope this helps clarify my earlier comments.

    Sopy, gotta say, basketball would actually but more enjoyable right now.


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    An attorny, I agree with your entire comment.

    “And, quite frankly, Jesus laid out a cure for those who cannot control themselves, a cure we call self-mutilation, which we generally find abhorrent and do not do. So incarceration and similar penalties are the treatment of choice.”


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    Oops, my computer is posting comments without me hitting the send button!

    “And, quite frankly, Jesus laid out a cure for those who cannot control themselves, a cure we call self-mutilation, which we generally find abhorrent and do not do. So incarceration and similar penalties are the treatment of choice.”

    I would just point out gently that a little bit of some sort of “sin sniffing” had to take place in order for someone to be incarcerated.


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    An Attorney
    Amen and Amen


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    …so a pastor finding themselves in continuing or repeated commission of harm to da kind church folk should disqualify themselves?

    hmmm…

    …if they will not, then it is up to da kind church folk to act to protect the pastor’s victims, and potential victims of those pastors who cannot avoid harming others?

    Civil Judges, Civil Judges…

    Your Honor(s),

    We need a little help!

    Can You Assist?

    Sure would appreciate it!

    (sigh)

    Sopy


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    Mitch,

    Hey, 

    Bad pastors are using the nefarious mechanism of out of sorts context twisting of scripture ta hurt kind folk.  then their pals come and defend um. No budy does anything. So da victims pile up. In da mean time nobudy believes da scripture peddlers, think’in they are being scammed. Snake oil being what it is…

    We’re gonna need more than an Ouwie mouse ta fix this.

    We need justice, and competent pastors who demonstrate proven character. 

    …threading the eye of the proverbial theological needle can wait a bit, huh?

    I think da Wartburg Lassies, like ta keep da TWW church pews clear for da hurt’in and da walk’in wounded, and those who can show dem compassion.

    believe U me, they can useit!

    Ask Dee ta start a “what is Grace” tread, and have a ball!

    thump, thump, thump

    (grin)

    Sopy


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    "Pointing out a pedophiles sin does not equal justification of your own sin but if you point to his sin with the idea that he is a worse sinner than you or the bread thief than it could be because you prefer to think that your sin is not as bad as the pedophiles to God. If you personally are not doing that then I am not talking about you." Mitch, The converse is true, too. In fact, the converse of your proposed scenerio is exactly what Mahaney and SGM did with the molesters.


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    @ Anon 1-

    “Mitch, The converse is true, too. In fact, the converse of your proposed scenerio is exactly what Mahaney and SGM did with the molesters.”

    Yes. Mahaney spoke about his sins as garden variety, meaning plain and typical… move along…nothing to see here kinds of sins. I also remember in his initial statement how he referred to his sins as not financial impropriety or immorality. By singling those two out, isn’t he giving them a greater degree of importance? Are those the two sins that REALLY get a pastor in trouble whereas coercion would not? At least in his mind? It seems Mahaney is making degrees of sin.

    So, do these SGM guys teach all sin is equal—stealing a pen from work is as bad as having an affair, or not? I think the bible teaches there are degrees of sin.

    What does John 19:11 mean when Jesus says, “Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

    Luke 12:46-48?

    If all kinds of sin is rebellion against God and separates one from God leading to eternal death unless one places faith in the forgiveness of sins Jesus offers, how can it matter, why would it matter if one sin is greater than another? Is it all just a level playing field of sin? I don’t think so.

    Seems to me the differences lie in the motives, circumstances surrounding and knowledge of the one sinning. Willful sins versus ignorance. You know, the OT verses about who gets what consequence for what kinds of sins. (Numbers 15:27-31.) And it’s one thing to solo sin (do something that hurts only yourself and reap the consequences) and quite another to live in a contemptuous way toward your fellow human beings… thinking of Matt 18:6.


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    Diane, Great points and it made me think of Paul talking about being deceived out of ignorance in 1 Tim 1. He puts himself in that category before he was saved.
    I just cannot read the OT or the NT without seeing all sorts of pointers to behavioral sin (which we know starts in the mind) and it was not Ruth gossiped with Tamar type stuff. (No way am saying that is ok). I just do not see this idea that “all sins are the same to God” in scripture.
    While these are not exhaustive they give us a clue as they were written to believers and are ‘actionable’ and I wonder if we see a theme here:

    ” I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister[c] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people.” 1 Corin 5
    16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
    19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5
    6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.” Revelation 21


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    oops, sorry…formatting did not work!


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    AMEN, AMEN, AMEN, AMEN. I just can’t say that enough, Wade.

    I loved the part when you said that AFTERWARD you yield the peaceful fruit of righteousness. You have no idea how many people have come up to me and said that I shouldn’t be grieving like I am over my sister’s death because I am a christian, yada yada yada. Wade, you hit the nail on the head. When I hurt, I let myself hurt. I know God is with me and will see me thru but only AFTER I go thru this sad moment. These people just don’t get me and try to conform me into their “look everything is great” mode. It doesn’t work with me anymore.

    And it is true, God does show me something each time and helps me heal. Thank you again Wade.


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    sending you a virtual hug, Scooter’s Mom!

    Mary Ann


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    Scooter’s mom, people who say these things lack empathy and concern for others. They cannot fathom what it is like to feel anything because they have cold shallow hearts themselves.There are just some things in life that we will never get over and nobody should have to pretend for others just to make them feel more comfortable.The problem is with them, not with us.


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    Thank you Victorious and Stormy. Having positive and “real” people around helps so much.


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    Scooter’s Mom,

    Delighted you were encouraged by the Word of God! Thanks for the AMEN’S!


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    The IRS Doesn’t Require You to Prove a Non-Profit is Doing Something Fishy –
    They’re Just Happy to Get Tips

    Anyone can make a good faith complaint to the IRS, and they’ll investigate it from there if they believe it has merit. You don’t have to (probably can’t possibly) prove anything. They’re happy to get tips from the public so there’s no reason to hold back if anyone else share my concerns about SGM/CLC.

    http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/divulge_all_suspected_tax_exempt_status_abuses_to_the_irs.pdf


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    Sorry the above is in the wrong thread.