Profiles in Gospel "Courage" – 2013
In a breathtakingly naive post here, Tim Challies attempts to distance himself from SGM and CJ Mahaney
I recall meeting Mahaney only one time and for no more than two or three minutes. To my knowledge we have never corresponded by email or any other media. He and I have never shared a speaking platform and I have never spoken at a SGM event (though I did liveblog a couple of them several years ago). All this to say that I write as an outside observer rather than as a personal friend and write this article primarily for the benefit of other outside observers.
I guess glowing posts that Girl Talk girls love do not count link? How about this post link.
I love to see Christians serving, challenging, exhorting and blessing other Christians in this way. I thank God for Piper and Mahaney and their ministry to Mark Driscoll and, through him, to the church at large.
He admits that his head is plunked firmly in the gospel ground because learning about how churches approach child sex abuse "is not spiritually beneficial and reflects poor time management."
For this reason I have deliberately avoided learning too much. I have had to question my motives, especially since I have repeatedly been on the receiving end of scathing criticism for not using my platform to speak out against Mahaney. I have chosen to read the news stories, to understand the basic facts, but conscience compels me to stop there. To do more may not be spiritually beneficial, it may not reflect good time management, and it may not be loving toward those who are involved.
Challies makes a classic "move along, nothing to see here" comment that should cause pedophiles, and the churches that hide them, to rejoice.
However, the majority of us are far on the outside with very little at stake. For this reason many of us simply do not need to have an opinion.
Poor guy is afraid to entertain comments. I certainly wouldn't after that post. I guess gospel men are afraid what people might say.
Note: I have chosen to close the comments for this article.
However, it doesn't matter. Even when he allows comments, he deletes comments, especially those related to SGM/Mahaney. We wrote a blog post on his penchant for doing this here. Here is another deleted comment from Challie's blog as recorded by a reader.
Blog: Challies.com
Post: Should You Go to T4G? http://www.challies.com/interviews/should-you-go-to-t4g
Date: 10/18/11
Editor: David Kjos
Comment: “They have healed the wound of my people lightly, saying, ‘Peace, peace,’ when there is no peace.” Jer. 6:14 and 8:11
Deleted: Same day
Deleted because: The article referred to praised C J Mahaney as “exactly the kind of man we want to stand with”. These identical verses by Jeremiah expressed my opinion that CJ is NOT the kind of man we should stand with–that CJ has seriously wounded many, and caused much strife, which T4G brushed aside lightly.
There is not one word of concern about the very real victims whose pedophiles were reported to the police. Not one kind word! Challies has proven that his words on being concerned about child sex abuse are just that-words.
PS-If I were Mahaney, I would be concerned. The distancing is starting.( I only met him once and only for a couple of minutes.)
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Dee – – Link Alert: Looks like link in the first paragraph is missing …
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Until the text gets fixed, here’s the link HT to The Tolling Bell:
http://www.challies.com/articles/thinking-biblically-about-cj-mahaney-and-sovereign-grace-ministries
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This is going crazy on Twitter right now. The code words in his title are: “thinking biblically.” Those of us who have gone through spiritual abuse know those words to mean: shut up, I have the right answers and if you question my “biblical” thoughts , you are going against the bible and are wrong.
To sound off on Twitter: @Challies
Let him hear from you on Twitter or on his FB page here: https://www.facebook.com/timchallies?fref=ts
He actually has so far allowed my comment where I included a proper response from Pastor Ken Garrett. (http://goo.gl/8EEkX)
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brad
You are awesome! I fixed it. If I had money, I would hire you instantly.
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Me too!
Oh. There’s a fallacy in the fantasy …
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Challies Implies that Christians Shouldn’t Care if Kids Get Molested in Other Churches
I found the quote below from Challies very interesting. Apparently he doesn’t think that Christians, or mature adults in general, have any reason to care about kids being molested in Churches outside their geographic area.
That’s quite a conviction from Challies, who just gave Mohler’s new book about Conviction, a glowing review on Amazon.
In addition to the generally immoral line of reasoning Challies is advocating, I would add the following counter-argument:
The public picks up the tab for medical care when churches let kids get molested so everyone has a big stake in preventing this from happening. For example, if pastors let serial pedophiles molest kids, who later end up in the hospital and on Medicaid, society is paying millions of dollars for their care. A single day in the hospital in the U.S. costs at least $1000-$3000 and many of these victims will presumably need psychiatric care for life.
Challies Quote
“This is an issue of greater urgency to some than others. The way each of us thinks through it will depend on the extent to which we are stakeholders, to our relational proximity to those involved and even geographic proximity. If you are a member at a SGM church this issue is very urgent, and particularly so if your church is considering withdrawing from the association. However, the majority of us are far on the outside with very little at stake. For this reason many of us simply do not need to have an opinion.”
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brad/futuristguy wrote:
Dee, I would fight you for Brad.
thanks for the laugh, Brad.
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“For this reason many of us simply do not need to have an opinion.”
Yea, none of us needed an opinion about Penn State. Give me a break.
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@ Marshall Coleman:
I am going to put this “need to know” comment in the post right now. Thanks!
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I’m sorry – but what a coward. If you look at the A La Carte article just before the one mentioned here, he ponders things like Louis CK, and the meteor that exploded in Russia. Got time for comedians and falling rocks, but not abuse in the church. Talk about convenient priorities. Good grief.
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Marshall Coleman wrote:
What was God’s sakeholding in my salvation as a lost and dying sinner? I guess he did not need to have an opinion on the state of my soul. I’m grateful he did and sent his Son to the cross for me.
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Patrick – good point. If he’d said something like, I don’t know all the facts and I’m not going to pre-judge precisely because these matters have such potentially serious implications, that would’ve been one thing. The time-management thing is just banal.
BTW – I take it your avatar is meant to be the Stig?
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Challies has wise points *in general* but is missing the point as it pertains to SGM.
The issue is not simply about whether or not SGM is guilty of the charges. The issue is that the leaders of SGM are not acting in a way that communicates a commitment to truth and justice.
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Guys like Challies, Mohler, Piper, et.al. have no problem railing against the immorality and Godlessness of the mainstream culture, but when it comes to one of their own. . . . . .[chirp]
I’m just surprised Challies tried to make excuses for his silence. Fail.
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Rachel Held Evans just posted an article on this. http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/sovereign-grace-ministries-abuse-allegations “Yes, we should withhold judgment unless the defendants are proven guilty. But what we can judge, and what we should flatly condemn, is Sovereign Grace Ministry’s repeated efforts to evade any external investigation into these allegations.”
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The bible says that we are not to provoke one another, and this is exactly what Tim Challies has done. He’s thrown a big fat log on the fire.
Well, God will even use cause this for our good, to be sure. Adding fuel to the fire will work against SGM because you can be sure God is not pleased with Tim Challies and the position he has taken in support of SGM, especially when so many of God’s people have come out as true witnesses against SGM. Guess the lines are drawn. Tim Challies makes it sound like he’s sitting on the fence, but that’s not what he’s doing. He’s on SGM’s side.
With people like Challies saying stuff like this, it won’t be long before people start taking it to the streets. We’ve already been shouting it from the rooftops. This is really outrageous.
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Tim Challies, welcome to the Church Of Manly Pansies. You have officially earned your membership along with the men you like to defend with your silence.
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Tim Challies has closed the comments on that post?
Well, I guess I’m really glad that Deb and Dee are here with open comments so people can point out how wrong Challies is.
(I’m glad Dee and Deb are around for other reasons too. It’s just today I’m particularly glad they are here for this.)
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Thanks, Dee, for including my comments. At this point I’ve heard it all regarding SGM and the only thing that still depresses me is the “I don’t have any skin in this game” line of thinking, regarding protecting children, because it reflects a profound immaturity that isn’t likely to make the world a better place for future generations.
I’ll also be starting my own blog site to deal with some of legal and financial aspects of the CLC/SGM situation I’ve touched on, in other posts, pretty soon, as these guys clearly care about nothing but the bottom line so that’s where I think we have to hit them next.
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Ugh.
“We tend to believe that the side that is slow or hesitant to release information must be in the wrong, that their silence is an admission of guilt. Keep in mind, though, that Jesus did not protest his innocence and that people took this as a sign of his guilt, though he, of all men, was completely innocent.”
He equates CJ and SGM with !Jesus!. Good grief.
He is heaping more hurt upon those who were abused. He is an arrogant Pharisee.
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Classic Move: “Off To Da ‘Darkside’?”
Challies makes the classic :
“move along, nothing to see here” ?!? -Dee
(Thank God for da Falcon…)
Aaaa, Wartburg?
May the Christ, be with you Wartburg!
(Hans, Chewie, Luke and Obwan.)
(grin)
hahahahaha
Tim Challies has made a classic move towards the ‘Darkside’?
What does that say for C.J. Mahaney?
hmmm…
Princess Dee: “Commander Ceege, the more you tighten your proverbial grip, the more SGM churches will simply slip right through your stained little fingers…”
-snicker-
-snort-
Bruhahahahahahahaha
S㋡py
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@ Jeff S.:
“What was God’s sakeholding in my salvation as a lost and dying sinner? I guess he did not need to have an opinion on the state of my soul. I’m grateful he did and sent his Son to the cross for me.”
Excellent Jeff!!!
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“…good time management…”
Give. Me. A. Break.
Lame.
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Re: Challies deletion of Jeremiah’s rebuke to false/greedy prophets/priests. Jeremiah had his whole book deleted back then. From ch 36 :
‘And Jehudi read it to the king as well as to all the officials who stood beside the king. 22Now the king was sitting in the winter house in the ninth month, with a fire burning in the brazier before him. 23When Jehudi had read three or four columns, the king cut it with a scribe’s knife and threw it into the fire that was in the brazier, until all the scroll was consumed in the fire that was in the brazier. 24Yet the king and all his servants who heard all these words were not afraid, nor did they rend their garments. 25Even though Elnathan and Delaiah and Gemariah pleaded with the king not to burn the scroll, he would not listen to them.’
But God just had Jeremiah rewrite it!
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“However, the majority of us are far on the outside with very little at stake. For this reason many of us simply do not need to have an opinion.”
Really?!?! I’ve listened for years to arrogant authoritarians tell me I “do not need to have an opinion.” And it’s because of ” opinions” such as Challies that child sexual abuse (and abuse in general) continues to take place with no one to speak for the victims. There are organizations all over this planet that speak out against injustices that take place outside their local vicinity. Our own government sends aid to other countries facing catastrophes.
Anyone who has suffered spiritual abuse has a stake in this. We all want to see changes in the way these issues are handled. The only ones with “very little at stake” are those who have never experienced the pain, humiliation, and isolation of spiritual abuse.
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It seems Challies and Mohler would have a difference of opinion. I agree with what Mohler says regarding the sexual molestation scandal at Penn State. I am at loss to explain why he doesn’t appear to hold to his own counsel regarding his close friend and benefactor C.J. Mahaney.
From Challies’ blog:
“As it pertains to the sexual abuse lawsuit I do not take this to mean that I necessarily presume innocence until guilt is proven (since, after all, there are professed Christians as both accusers and defenders) but rather that I am to do my best to withhold judgment until the God-ordained civil authorities have been able to do their work. It is for them to evaluate the case and to pass judgment, it is for me to withhold judgment until that time, especially so since these are, by their very nature, allegations and not yet proven facts.”
From Al Mohler’s blog:
“But the world has not only changed for college athletics. The detonation of the Penn State scandal must shake the entire nation into a new moral awareness. Any failure to report and to stop the sexual abuse of children must be made inconceivable. The moral irresponsibility that Penn State officials demonstrated in this tragedy may well be criminal. There can be no doubt that all of these officials bear responsibility for allowing a sexual predator to continue his attacks.
What about churches, Christian institutions, and Christian schools? The Penn State disaster must serve as a warning to us as well, for we bear an even higher moral responsibility. The moral and legal responsibility of every Christian — and especially every Christian leader and minister — must be to report any suspicion of the abuse of a child to law enforcement authorities. Christians are sometimes reluctant to do this, but this reluctance is both deadly and wrong.
Sometimes Christians are reluctant to report suspected sexual abuse because they do not feel that they know enough about the situation. They are afraid of making a false accusation. This is the wrong instinct. We do not have the ability to conduct the kind of investigation that is needed, nor is this assigned to the church. This is the function of government as instituted by God (Romans 13). Waiting for further information allows a predator to continue and puts children at risk. This is itself an immoral act that needs to be seen for what it is.
A Christian hearing a report of sexual abuse within a church, Christian organization, or Christian school, needs to act in exactly the same manner called for if the abuse is reported in any other context. The church and Christian organizations must not become safe places for abusers. These must be safe places for children, and for all. Any report of sexual abuse must lead immediately to action. That action cannot fall short of contacting law enforcement authorities. A clear lesson of the Penn State scandal is this: Internal reporting is simply not enough.
After law enforcement authorities have been notified, the church must conduct its own work of pastoral ministry, care, and church discipline. This is the church’s responsibility and charge. But these essential Christian ministries and responsibilities are not substitutes for the proper function of law enforcement authorities and the legal system. As Christians, we respect those authorities because we are commanded to do so.
There may well be further arrests in connection with the Penn State scandal. One can only imagine the lawsuits that will consume the university’s time and treasury in years ahead. Christian institutions and churches looking at this scandal had better act immediately to ensure that all operate under adequate policies and guidelines. What would prevent this scandal at your school or church?
Church leaders and pastors must decide now — not later — that we will respond to any report of sexual abuse with immediate action and an immediate call to law enforcement officials. We must decide in advance what we will do, and not allow ourselves to think that we can handle such a challenge on our own. Every church and Christian institution needs a full set of policies, procedures, and accountability structures. As leaders, we must develop the right instincts for right action.
The leaders of Penn State University must have acted, or failed to have acted, out of many motivations. One may well have been to protect the image and reputation of the university. Well, we now see where that leads. A scandal reported and ended in 2002 would be horrible enough. A scandal that began there, was known by officials, and explodes almost a decade later is too horrible to contemplate.
We all need an immediate reality check. I discovered yesterday that the policy handbook of the institution I am proud to lead calls for any employee receiving a report of child abuse, including child sexual abuse, to contact his or her supervisor with that report. That changes today. The new policy statement will direct employees receiving such a report to contact law enforcement authorities without delay. Then, after acting in the interests of the child, they should contact their supervisor.
In a real sense, the whole world changed today. We all know more than we knew before, and we are all responsible for that knowledge. The costs of acting wrongly in such a situation, or acting inadequately, are written across today’s headlines and the moral conscience of the nation. The tragedy at Penn State is teaching the entire nation a lesson it dare not fail to learn.”
http://www.albertmohler.com/2011/11/10/the-tragic-lessons-of-penn-state-a-call-to-action/
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@ Nick Bulbeck: I Am the Stig. I love UK Top Gear. It’s been my avatar for a long time.
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@Searching…
Shortly after Brent’s documents were released to the public and before we left our SGM church…that was the talk going around. People were comparing CJ with Jesus and saying that Jesus was misunderstood and falsely accused just like CJ. Made me sick at my stomach to say the least.
I saw this quote today on Forbes. “Facts are worthless to a man if he has to keep running to somebody else for advice on how to use them.” If people feel they need to consult guys like Tim Challies and look to him for advice on what they should be doing then the only thing missing are the facts.
@ Mandy…I love it…”Church of Manly Pansies”!!!
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FYI: Brent Detwiler will be interviewed by Janet Mefford between 4:15-4:30 today. http://janetmefferd.com/
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@ Patrick Henderson:
So Patrick seeing your U.S. flag on your post you really should put up Fat Stig, Stig’s American cousin. 🙂 Damien Lewis did a lap in the reasonably priced car on the new season premier and it was fabulous.
On topic – Tim Challies has just rendered himself of no consequence or spritual or moral authority with this post. None whatsoever.
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@ TW:
“I am at loss to explain why he doesn’t appear to hold to his own counsel regarding his close friend and benefactor C.J. Mahaney.”
Forget SGM! I want to know why Mohler’s ignoring all the folks from the SBC trying to get his attention about sexual abuse cover-ups in HIS OWN FAMILY OF CHURCHES.
With all due respect, I don’t see a complex issue here. Clearly Mohler’s double standard regarding Penn State and SGM shows that he doesn’t really believe what he said about protecting kids, out of principle, in the article you’ve referenced.
By contrast, Mohler’s long-time conviction, based on what he actually does rather than what he tells other people to do, indicates clearly that he believes that preserving the reputation of an institution(s) that affects his bottom line is more important than caring for the spiritual, emotional, and physical welfare of the people he is supposedly leading.
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This is just a horrible, shallow response from Challies, & once again, more inclined towards protecting the good name of the church even if it’s at the cost of abused children. Idiotic behaviour…RHE was right interms of how he’s positioning the leaders as the Christlike persecuted, & the families as the ungodly accusers. Vile & loathsome, & totally delightful to paedophiles hoping to continue with their actions in churches. I despair of this.
Tim Challies: every christian, every person who cares about young people has a dog in this race….don’t fool yourself.
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“I Have Deliberately Avoided Learning Too Much.”
Translation (filked from a half-remembered Yogi Orbison song on a long-ago Dr Demento):
“I’m proud I’m a Holy Nincompoop,
Nincompoop, Nincompoop…”
Since when did Stupidity become next to Godliness?
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“However, the majority of us are far on the outside with very little at stake.”
Really? SGM materials, Mahaney’s in particular, are promoted all over. Non-SGM churches and pastors are being influenced by SGM, and push the same kind of so-called biblical thinking on their congregations. Anyone who cares about the teaching direction of their own church has a horse in this race, because SGM’s influence is pervasive.
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He admits that his head is plunked firmly in the gospel ground because learning about how churches child sex abuse “is not spiritually beneficial and reflects poor time management.”
“I VAS A GOOT CHERMAN! I KNEW NOTHINK! NOTHINK!” — channelling Sgt Schultz
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Mandy wrote:
Tim Challies, why doncha go beat up your wife to show us Unwashed how Manly Man you are.
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Lee wrote:
Ever heard of the Yiddish phrase “Shanda fur die Goyim”? It means doing something that brings reproach on Jews as a whole and fuels the fire of anti-Semitism. Because to an outsider, Christians are all alike; Richard Dawkins, Ayn Rand, and Madelyn Murry O’Hare wouldn’t draw a distinction between SGM and you or me — we’re all Those Religionists.
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Timely – I ran across this quote today by J.K. Rowling, “It takes a great deal of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends.” Perhaps John Piper, Al Mohler, Tim Challies and co. should think on that.
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Filking an aria from Godspell here:
“WOE UNTO YOU, LIARS AND PHARISEES, HYPOCRITES! YOU WATCH THE RAPE OF CHILDREN, AND FOR A RESPONSE MAKE LONG PRAYERS!”
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Marshall Coleman
I like your forthrightness. I think there is a need for this. No need to us to sound doubtful or lack deliberativeness. This situation requires direct responses characterized by a steadfast confidence in the Lord. There is no need for us to waver on this. Right on brother!
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“It would be better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he was cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble.” -Luke 17:2
#ThinkingBiblically
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@TW
You quoted: From Challies’ blog:
“As it pertains to the sexual abuse lawsuit I do not take this to mean that I necessarily presume innocence until guilt is proven (since, after all, there are professed Christians as both accusers and defenders) but rather that I am to do my best to withhold judgment until the God-ordained civil authorities have been able to do their work…”
Here is the crux of the matter: Challies is specifically stating that when its a Christian who is accused then you need to “withold judgement” the implication being that when it is a non-christain (like Sandusky) – judge away.
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Tim Challes is just plain WRONG!
If I falsely accused any organized Christian church and that led to every church’s and their ministers demise, I alone would be guilty, NOT all the people who were concerned enough for the alledgedly abused and the possible future abused that they spread the warning testimonies without being an eye witness.
How close does Tim Challes need to be before he allows himself to care enough to listen and warn? I’m just wondering if he would feel differently if one of his relatives were a victim and due to people heeding sermons like the one he just wrote about SGM, his relatives were hurt by true accusations.
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Comment deleted by editor
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Tim Challies showed lack of integrity and worse – I’m sure ministers from generations past like Spurgeon would have had no problem condemning child abuse. Why is it that these New Calvinists have no problem accusing others of misdeeds (even just merely perceived ones), but yet have no capacity for self-examination? Hypocricy, arrogance, pride, and gutlessness – how do men such as Challies land up in ministry? Or further, how do people allow him to have authority over them?
Protect your children – avoid SGM, avoid TGC, don’t let them have any authority over you.
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@ Lee
They are in denial that the leadership and teachings themselves could have lead to something this embarrassing (the proper term is despicable but they are really just embarrassed) – ergo there is no need to remove those materials and influence from our library shelves – it is clearly not the fruit of the movement and its important to not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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@ ES: ES: I hear you and like to state the argument you cited the following way when it comes up in debate:
“So the Bible says you should be nice to Christians (even when there’s no evidence folks really are Christians based on their behavior) but it’s open season on non-Christians like Jews?
Jesus might have had a problem with that logic given that he was a Jew and a Christian.”
That response usually leads to a long uncomfortable pause. 🙂
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Tim Challies needs to repent ! As Christians , we are called to defend the abused in our own regions and all over the world . I donate to World Vision to supply food and educate to a little boy in another country , according to Tim Challies , I should have no concern whatsoever for this little boy or his family because they do not live in my region . It’s not an either or situation here !!! You can do both , speak out against injustice in your own regions and all over the world . This is one of the most disgusting , cowardly things I have read . Makes my stomach turn ..
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Marshall, when you start your blog we gotta have a link. Good stuff, man.
Note the typical doublespeak coming from these guys:
I have only met Mahaney twice (but never mind about me promoting and profiting off of SGM)
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The woman ran to Jesus, Oh Master, some of our people have been abused by the religious leaders can you help us find the truth and provide comfort for them?
Jesus replies:
My sister, I have chosen to read the news stories, to understand the basic facts, but conscience compels me to stop there. To do more may not be spiritually beneficial, it may not reflect good time management, and it may not be loving toward those who are involved.
Way to go, Tim. You are very Christlike. Doing all you can to protect the innocent and encouraging the wolves to forgo the 1st Amendment and be truthful and encouraging your other celebrity Reformed buddies to back away from promoting the wolves until this is resolved..
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“Here is the crux of the matter: Challies is specifically stating that when its a Christian who is accused then you need to “withold judgement” the implication being that when it is a non-christain (like Sandusky) – judge away.”
That is exactly it. And Mohler was doing the same by writing about Penn State but not Mahaney. They judge the world but not each other as believers? Nope, they protect each other.
Mohler is supposed to be a brilliant theologian as President of the SBC flagship seminary. Yet he does not know 1 Corinthians 5?
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
Looks like Mohler is not qualified for his job.
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Disappointing that Challies would take this “non position” position.
It’s typical. “If it’s not my problem…it’s not a problem”.
I guarantee you if one of Challies kids or relatives was among the victims, he’d care…
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I’ve experienced the same/similar sort of indifference from CC Pastors in our situation…not surprising (yet not right) that a Challies would respond this way, unfortunately.
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Challies says: “I take this as a call to consider carefully what information I learn.”
How is that different than willfully looking the other way when powerful men commit great crimes?
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“I take this as a call to consider carefully what information I learn.”
Yeah, you hear the details it is sort of hard to not have an opinion. It becomes about REAL live little children.
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“Since when did Stupidity become next to Godliness?”
@ HUG:
Err…the exact moment da LegalBeagles get involved.
Itz about collateral damnage.
Itz about da M-o-n-e-y.
Silly…
“If there is a story in there, I am asking” :
“Why would God reveal Himself in this story?”
“Why does He want me to know this story?”
“What am I being called to do?”
– Tim Challies
hmmm…
Good questions, Tim. try them again in this SGM context sometime…
I am sure God is listening, and your proverbial Bible study friends can probably wait a moment.
(grin)
Sopy
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“You and I are responsible to do well here, to be above reproach in our thoughts, words and actions. We are responsible to be marked by love whether evaluating a difficult situation or taking appropriate action.” So says Challies, and then he goes on to say that taking care of the victims is really not necessary. Mostly, we just need to protect CJ’s reputation by suspending judgement. Aaargh…
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@ Miguel:
There is no difference….willfully ignorant must be bliss for this man. Another moral coward who thinks he can tell others how to think while he himself is choosing not to think!
Where is Balaam’s donkey when you need him?
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Fantastic comment on Rachel Held Evans’ blog:
“It strikes me as deeply problematic that it’s somehow not okay for Christians to criticize other Christians. It also strikes me as extremely odd that there’s an apparent exception: it seems you can criticize people when they, in turn, are criticizing genuinely bad behavior.
Bad behavior is bad behavior, and needs to be called out no matter who’s doing it.”
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At the Boar’s Head Tavern, Chris Hubbs has posted a link to Challies’ post, a very good response to it, and a link to Rachel Held Evans’ post. Because the BHT has close ties to the Internet Monk site, I hope this means somebody at IM will bring it up too.
Link: http://boarsheadtavern.com/2013/02/28/yet-another-topic/.
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Wait. Wait. Since when was it sound Christian doctrine to only stand up for justice when you personally “have something at stake?” Doesn’t that go against an awful freaking lot of scripture??
Challies’ comments miss the point in a most spectacular way. He’s arguing that we should not judge anyone in the privacy of our hearts (and, by extension, convince others how to judge in their hearts). That’s all well and good, but that’s not what’s actually going on here. What’s actually going on is that SGM leaders are trying to evade the legal and moral process of investigation, and Christians are setting a precedent for how we will react to such behavior.
As such, this is not about judging someone in our hearts based on gossip. It’s about holding ourselves to a high standard of accountability on serious and dangerous issues. How is that gossip? How is that judging someone?
Challies himself even mentions that we should sit back and let the proper authorities deal with this. Okay, but that’s THE POINT…..Sovereign Grace is ATTEMPTING TO THWART THE PROPER AUTHORITIES. So are you, or are you not, in favor of those proper authorities getting involved?
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“It strikes me as deeply problematic that it’s somehow not okay for Christians to criticize other Christians. It also strikes me as extremely odd that there’s an apparent exception: it seems you can criticize people when they, in turn, are criticizing genuinely bad behavior. ”
They missed the point. It is “Christian LEADERS” one is not to critisize. And questioning is considered critical
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Thanks, Anon. My thanks to Dee and Deb for providing this forum, too.
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ES wrote:
Well, maybe Challies is right. Think of all the times Jesus harshly criticized the pagans while reminding his followers that their own religious leaders were above reproach and should be passively followed without question.
…Hey, wait a minute! 🙂
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Lee wrote:
Excellent point. This comment, right here, points to Challies’ reprehensible denial of the SGM effect and the influence this will have on people, near and far.
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It is becoming increasingly clear just how dangerous this ‘authoritative’ view of church structure is. There is zero provision in this theology for sin and corruption in the leaders themselves.
The victims went to pastors for help. Instead of guidance they received authoritative instruction. They were expected to obey what they were told, even if it was against their wishes. They could not voice opposition, as this prompted accusations of “bitterness” and “disobedience.” Victims could not turn to other church members, friends for help, because this is “gossip.” Victims could not leave the church, because the leadership would follow them and shame them. Victims cannot appeal the courts because ‘1st amendment means the government has no right to intervene.” And now, victims cannot appeal to the global church or the public, because it is “not their business!”
Unbelievable!
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Ryan wrote:
Well said and that’s right! Don’t let them have any authority over you. That’s the mistake we ex-SGM’ers realize we made. We handed over control of our lives to them bit by bit because they said it was the right thing to do and we believed it because of the way they distorted scripture. Those who are comfortable with Mahaney are doing the same thing, or else they wouldn’t still be in the same bed with him!
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Off topic-
I noticed these tweets at Challies’ twitter–first one from Barnabas Piper (John Piper’s son) and then Challies’ ?cute? response–
10 hrsBarnabas Piper@BarnabasPiper
Forgot to check in early for my flight to TX. Now guaranteed a seat between the fat farter and the screaming baby. Swell.
9 hrschallies@challies
@BarnabasPiper Such a rookie mistake!
https://twitter.com/challies
Fat farter? And all Challies can say to Piper’s son is rookie mistake? How about something like this that Challies wrote just today on his blog:
“You and I are responsible to do well here, to be above reproach in our thoughts, words and actions. We are responsible to be marked by love whether evaluating a difficult situation or taking appropriate action. We can make the gospel look great or we can make it look insignificant.”
Seems to me Barnabas Piper made the gospel look insignificant with his cruel, not above reproach fat farter comment, and all Challies can say is “rookie mistake”. Or was all that biblical advice that just for us non-celebs.
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“what a coward” Indeed he is…
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I can tell by the comments that this whole thing is really starting to come to a head. People are becoming very clear headed and seeing the truth. The fog is lifting and the light is starting to shine with a laser like intensity, PTL.
Thank you Tim Challies for being an instrument of righteousness, in ways you don’t know.
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Kristin wrote:
Kristin, you’ve broken it down beautifully. All has been structured to make sure the powerful remain in power and the hurting remain helpless. Seems kind of like the opposite of the kingdom of heaven, right?
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Kristin wrote:
Completely astounding!
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Through a glass darkly wrote:
I’m going to check out her blog. I love that woman’s courage! *clap, clap*
Thanks for sharing this!
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Kristin wrote:
Kristin, another commenter on another blog (who I would love to credit, but I have lost track of that particular page) described why churches like SGM are prime for this kind of thing. Because of the emphasis on identifying sin, being repentant, being held accountable, etc., in a situation like this the PERPETRATORS appear to be “more holy” because they are weeping about their sin (actually about being found out…), while the victims are angry and not willing to just forgive and forget that it ever happened, and therefore are perceived – and labeled! – as the ones who are sinning.
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His ‘none of my business’ attitude is exactly the same as the priest and the levite in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Sexual abuse victims? Better cross the street and walk on the other side lest he get tainted by them.
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“here is zero provision in this theology for sin and corruption in the leaders themselves.”
Bingo. Closed system. No accountability. Thinking you are specially anointed. Power corrupts.
They become the lawless ones as they emulate the Pharisees.
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Hey all
My router died and I have been offline since @2:30Pm. I am now back and will try t catch up.
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Marshall
Let us know about your blog and we will plug it. @ Marshall Coleman:
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@ Eagle:
“Also what is this “Need to Know” crap that Tim Challis spouts? “Need to Know” in Christianity? 😯 It makes me wonder…is Christianity to be run like the CIA? NRO? FBI? Department of Homeland Security? FBI? Are we talking that kind of “Need to Know”? 😯
Gee what’s next…water boarding in Community Groups? Or polygraphs at Sunday services? Is Sovereign Grace a “Christian” version of Abu Ghraib prison?”
O, Eagle- You crack me up! You are one funny, well spoken dude! (Mom)
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Tim Challies = Sergeant Schultz
http://youtu.be/-BFY9IkUt8w
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Tim Challies SGM press conference:
http://youtu.be/UmzsWxPLIOo
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Wish the comments weren’t closed. O Tim, Really now, really? This is your response to children who have suffered molestation? Do you have any idea the long term ramifications of what sexual abuse does to a child… You make me sick.
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The other offensive thing about Challies’ post is it basically ignores the victims. The existence of victims is only half-heartedly acknowledged. And that is simply despicable.
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Eagle wrote:
I remember when I was still in the WOF bubble…. The concept of ‘watching what you learn’ was present. Anything that made you squirm concerning the ‘doctrine’ you had swallowed and were being fed was something you ‘didn’t need to know.’ This post is an effective tool for Challies to keep the ‘faithful’ in line and not reading those ‘gossipy’ blogs and having their minds ‘tainted.’
I remember actually being afraid to read anything that was critical of one of the WOF leaders (Hagin, Copeland, etc.) because it would ‘weaken my faith’ and ’cause me to doubt.’ Yeah…Challies’ followers got the message….
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Tim Challies and others like him remind me of some of the jocks at Penn State. It is amazing how powerful idolatry can be, whether it is a statue of Joe Paterno (who was still alive at the time the statue was built), or the worship of unbiblical doctrines like New Calvinism and the “Moses Model” church structure, or the worship of the leaders of TGC. At least Penn State leaders had the sense to fire Joe Paterno and its president Graham Spanier. SGM won’t even do that.
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Interesting, Challies has no problem opining about the Pope stuff and RCC and a variety of other stuff he is not directly involved with…but feels the need to express the rhetoric of “Hear No Evil, See No Evil, Speak No Evil” regarding Mahaney and SGM. Tims’ wrong on this one big time.
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Anon
Thank you for the laugh of the night! I know nothing……..
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Meg
I think you may know the person who is doing tomorrows post at Internet Monk. 🙂
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Eagle
Thank you for making me laugh.
Need to know? Whiskey Tango Foxtrott to that…..
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Kristin,
You have captured the essence of this type of oppressive Christian church leadership!! You have covered the main distresses and the crazy reasoning behind them. Your comment has resonated with many others. You will be quoted!
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And here I thought, from the title, that this might be an apology. As in, “I have deliberately avoided learning too much, because I was afraid of what I might find. Now that I know the truth, I’m sorry for my endorsement and hope that justice will prevail” or something like that. I should know better by now, though.
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@Dee: I’ll check IM first thing in the morning.
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Eagle
Praying for you.
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@ Ryan: Spanier was only fired from the presidency of PSU. he is still a member of the faculty, and receives a large salary + benefits package. I’m sure he’s banking on a pension as well.
🙁
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Alex wrote:
Seems he’s too closely aligned to Mahaney theologically to be objective. He may be asking, “How could someone so right be so wrong?”
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Thanks, and the Timing of Challies Change in Attitude About SGM
Thanks, Dee and others who have given me positive feedback. My blog may be fairly dull as it talks about how to file HIPAA (medical privacy laws in the U.S.) complaints (against pastors who blab about the medical conditions of victims to their care group leaders ) and shows people how to tell the IRS if you think a certain non-profit church is behaving without integrity. But taking action feels good.
Believe me, the IRS is distrustful of non-profits in general and would be happy to get a good faith complaint from anyone who thinks church leaders are illegitimately benefiting from money donated by their members. From what I see, the leaders of SGM and CLC have some explaining to do!
As for Challies:
I’ve never seen the guy’s appeal. He’s a bad writer as his recent convoluted mess of an article illustrates. According to the posts above he acts like a frat boy, too, behind the scenes. Yet some folks like his schtick and that’s their prerogative.
However, I also wonder about the timing of his latest piece of drivel designed to semi-distance himself from SGM. Tim Tebow claimed that new information, the nature of which he did not disclose, caused him to bow out of speaking at the Gospel Coalition recently. Piper did speak at Mahaney’s new Church but his references to CJ being persuasive and frequent reassurances that he was there of his own volition indicated that someone was actually twisting his arm pretty hard.
I think that the SGM/CLC legal defense, arguing that the First Amendment lets pastors cover up sexual abuse with impunity, is putting too much heat on Mahaney’s supporters. Of course secular authorities are not to be trusted or respected but you’re not supposed to tell the public that or they might take away your tax breaks!
That concern would explain Challies statements about letting civil authorities handle Mahaney’s case and his sudden desire to read new reports from the mainstream media about SGM.
Just a thought.
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Tim Challies would have you believe he is a neutral, non-partisan, outside observer of C.J. Mahaney.
Tim Challies in 2005:
“[Joshua] Harris had his mentor in Mahaney, and I couldn’t think of too many guys who would do a better job of it. There isn’t much I wouldn’t give to have that type of relationship with a man like Mahaney.”
Tim Challies today:
“Before I begin, it may be useful for me to explain the nature of my relationship with C.J. Mahaney and Sovereign Grace Ministries, though there is actually very little to explain. I recall meeting Mahaney only one time and for no more than two or three minutes. To my knowledge we have never corresponded by email or any other media. He and I have never shared a speaking platform and I have never spoken at a SGM event (though I did liveblog a couple of them several years ago). All this to say that I write as an outside observer rather than as a personal friend and write this article primarily for the benefit of other outside observers.”
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I just read Challies and was so appalled I came over here and was delighted to see you’ve addressed it. I’m sure others have already commented on this, but to e the truly horrific thing was that all his comments about Christian love and thinking well about people were aimed at the perpetrators, not the victims. So now we know that caring about injustice is poor time management. Makes you wonder why Jesus ever wasted His precious short time on earth speaking about the false teaching of the Pharisees. I am doubly struck because just this morning I was asked to speak at our local WDP on the theme of “I was a stranger and you welcomed me”. The thing that really struck me was in Matt 25, when Jesus speaks about the sheep and the goats, he identifies, not with the generous (as we would expect from the Maker of All) but with the “least of these”. God is more interested in how we treat the ones at the bottom of the pile than the ones at the top
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@ numo:
That sucks! Thanks for the info.
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Pam wrote:
Or lest he get thrown under the bus by his Neo-Reformed pals, like the victims were. That’s another possible reason why the priest and the Levite walked on by. They may have been terrified of getting beaten and robbed themselves.
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@ Kristin:
“It is becoming increasingly clear just how dangerous this ‘authoritative’ view of church structure is. There is zero provision in this theology for sin and corruption in the leaders themselves.”
Well, there’s supposed to be:
Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.” Do not receive an accusation against an elder except from two or three witnesses. Those who are sinning rebuke in the presence of all, that the rest also may fear. -1 Timothy 5:17-20
Interestingly enough, followed immediately by:
I charge you before God and the Lord Jesus Christ and the elect angels that you observe these things without prejudice, doing nothing with partiality. -1 Timothy 5:21
You’re supposed to proceed on 2-3 witnesses – 9+ is certainly warrant to do something. And frankly, from where I sit, there’s a lot in this situation that looks an awful lot like prejudice and partiality.
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Hester wrote:
Funny, Mickey Connolly used that exact verse at CrossWay to “prove” that the 3-man panels SGM used back in 2011 (1 board member; 2 pastors) were fair and unbiased. Essentially, Mickey said that because this verse charges the panel to judge without partially, therefore we can know that the panel did judge fairly and without bias. That was Mickey’s whole argument – it’s a solemn charge, so of course you know these men of “impeccable integrity” did it. And I’m afraid a whole bunch of people swallowed it, hook, line, and sinker.
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Marhsall
Tim Tebow bowed out of speaking at Robert Jefress’ Taj Mahal, FBC Dallas, with its $130 million addition, including a $12 million fountain designed to draw people to Jesus. Jefress fancies himself a culture warrior and routinely says things that make many people outside the Dallas subculture cringe.
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In her 7: 28 am #160 March 1st. comment over at SGM Survivors, Kris the Moderator there said the following:
“Earlier, ‘Benjk’
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=4041&cp=3#comment-73395
..said he thought we were being unfair for seeming to accuse Challies of being deceptive. As I tried to get at with my comment #149,
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=4041&cp=3#comment-73403
I don’t see why it’s necessarily shocking or scandalous to look at Challies’ abundance of pro-SGM posts, his expressed wistfulness for a mentor like CJ, and the book endorsements from CJ’s come-hell-or-high-water supporters and see someone who is indeed (contrary to what he claims) very personally invested in the idea that CJ Mahaney and SGM are worthy of all the good things he has always believed about them.
It’s like anyone who has thought and promoted a particular point of view for a long time. How many of you reading this right now had a really difficult time acknowledging the problems in your SGM church because you’d committed so much of your time, money, and devotion to the idea that you’d found the ‘best church out there’?
Who wants to acknowledge that they were snookered?
I know book blurbs aren’t the be-all end-all, but surely that’s got to be at least a passing thought in Tim Challies’ mind. Unless he’s not normal, not human like the rest of us, he’s got to feel a level of pressure to remain in agreement with the guys who endorsed his books. They’ve all (to their ultimate embarrassment, I believe) come down hard on CJ’s critics and declared CJ fit for ministry. They continue to stand behind their friend.
Al Mohler accepted over $100,000 in donations from CJ to the SBTS. He has an increasingly cozy little relationship with CJ now that SGM moved its headquarters to Louisville.
Ligon Duncan has written some pretty acrid words against those who would dare to question CJ.
And Mark Dever (another endorser of Challies’ books) welcomed CJ to Capitol Hill Baptist when CJ was trying to avoid his critics at CLC.
How hard would it be to break ranks with the big-name guys who helped you out by providing promotional statements for the back cover of your first book?
What sort of crazy irony is there in publishing a book about “spiritual discernment” when you yourself are forced to admit a few years later that you resolutely refused to discern dysfunction and evil and pressed on in your admiration of a particular man?
If we’re human, we’re going to be invested in our long-held opinions, especially if we’ve shared them with other people.
In addition to the pastor gig he got primarily because of the influence he’d wielded on his blog, Challies makes his living from sharing his beliefs through his writing.
People have been looking to him for years because they respect his opinions and think he’s got discernment. He actually literally wrote the book on discernment (just like CJ wrote the book on humility).
So, no matter what he might say about his supposed non-relationship with CJ, he’s got a lot riding on having been right about CJ and SGM.
I can’t imagine why that would be difficult to see. And I can’t imagine why that would be hard to understand.” -Kris
http://www.sgmsurvivors.com/?p=4041&cp=4#comment-73414
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Marge Sweigart wrote:
“THE PARTY CAN DO NO WRONG —
EES PARTY LINE, COMRADE!”
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“Withholding judgment” simply means that Mr. Challies won’t take a stand against sin because he makes a living from his blog. He has worked long and hard to carve out his profitable place in the evangelical landscape.
He cannot afford to take a stand and so he, along with many other Christian leaders, choose to sacrifice our children on the altar of their wallets and reputations.
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Hope you’re taking notes on how to improve the cult-like status of TWW, ladies, and start creating more of a rule-bound atmosphere where we’re all afraid of you! Immediately following the comment at Survivors that Sopwith referenced above, the poster expressed her fear of having her comment deleted – an SGM Timeline of events of all things! Wow! Hope you’re taking notes. I think they’re ahead of you over there in the cult-like atmosphere department! 😉
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Jules
Welcome to TWW. I think it is vital that The Gospel Coalition leaders understand they effect of their words on others viewing this situation. Many of them insulate themselves as talking heads and do not really want to hear what others are saying. TWW takes it on the chin and have allowed comment after comment of not only deep disagreement but angry diatribes. We WANT to hear, feel and undertand those who disagree with us. That is the difference bewtween pontification and dialogue.
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Having known abuse at the hands of “Great Men of God”, sitting on their miniature papal thrones, untouchable, unaccountable and protected by a phalanx of enablers and sycophants, I can tell you that Chief Reformed Magisterial Blogger Challies needs to recuse himself on this subject. The Reformed Dirty Men’s club covers for its members and denies victims any justice. The corruption within evangelical and Reformed Christian ministries rivals anything the Vatican and Rome has ever had. If you don’t have the manhood to stand up for victims, you’re part of the problem, Challies. And as a cautionary note, the perps at Penn STate eventually did end up in jail, something the Reformed Dirty Men’s Club should note.
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What Was Really Bothering Tebow?
Thanks, Dee. My apologies on getting my facts wrong as to where Tebow declined to speak.
I agree that the big controversy surrounding the event is likely why he backed out but he knew about the views and attitude of its sponsor beforehand. And he could have said attending the event was more trouble than it was worth but added another rationale for canceling, according to a Christianity Today article written by Al Mohler:
What was this new info Tebow felt compelled to reference so vaguely? Was there a side predicament Tebow was attempting to avoid?
Like the SBC potentially having a big Penn State problem he doesn’t want to be associated with?
It’s just speculation but then so is everything and keeping track of potential puzzle pieces can be helpful when looking at big picture problems, to me.
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Jules wrote:
“I Got Mine,
I Got Mine,
I DON’T WANT A THING TO CHANGE
NOW THAT I GOT MINE!”
— Glenn Frye
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@ Diane:
Diane,
I did an impulsive thing, I really didn’t think it would even post but it did. I did not put your moniker to it but I copied and pasted your post to Barnabas Piper blog. I added my own exhortation to BP but it looks like I wrote the whole thing, sorry.
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It was asked what was the big deal with Challies? He was an early adaptor of social media. Was some sort of IT guy and had the first real professional blog in that market niche. He also did blogs/websites for others. I know of one he left in the lurch real bad at one point.
Anyway, he built his brand and then started doing live blogging for these guys. He was in the “in crowd”. Then he becomes a pastor? Seriously?
I used to read over there a lot in the early days and quite frankly came to the conclusion I had been totally sheltered in my Christian life. I did not know such [people existed in Christendom as what I read on his blog that was taken for the norm. You had these vitriolic guys proclaiming that God threw babies into hell for his Glory! It was considered the norm to read that there. That sort of thing was said all the time but don’t dare say any negative truths about his gurus.
I think most here get it. Challies makes a living this way. He is on a tight rope. so instead of trusting God and God’s people, he has to try make his stance sound biblical which only serves to make him a false teacher….and deceptive. I mean, the guy has been profiting off SGM!
Only those who listen to guys like him will think it is biblical so it will probably work for his market niche. That is how it always works.
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Dear Tim:
I’m sorry that you closed your comments. As a fellow blogger, I can understand why you might – keeping up with comments is exhausting, especially if you have to censor them. That being said, I was very disappointed with your article. I just wanted to say that just because you put “Thinking Biblically” in your title doesn’t mean you actually have. I could write a longer comment dismantling your bad arguments, but others have already done so above. I say this with concern – please read and learn. It is public knowledge that you make money from SGM. In this whole issue you come across as caring more about your income than about allegations os sin so terrible it begs for millstones and oceans. Please don’t be foolish. Sincerely,
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@ TW:
The internet has a way of exposing liars, doesn’t it?
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Check this out about Challies:
http://boarsheadtavern.com/2013/02/28/36079/
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To our readers:
Tim Challies claims he has little relationship to SGM & is an outsider. Really? Tune in Monday as TWW explores some interesting connections. It will prove to be most informative.
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Is this really a quote by Tim Challies about his friend/non-friend, CJ? “In his 2005 post on Desperate Jealousy, for example, he wrote “[Joshua] Harris had his mentor in Mahaney, and I couldn’t think of too many guys who would do a better job of it. There isn’t much I wouldn’t give to have that type of relationship with a man like Mahaney.”
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@ Ryan: It’s extremely difficult to get rid of tenured faculty members, which he is… he also has some high security clearance-type job with the Feds (!!!) right now, as he’s on leave from PSU.
It’s mind-boggling.
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Dee – Terrific job at iMonk!
(My sole comment there is awaiting moderation… Must’ve gotten some nasty stuff coming their way already.)
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Dee and Deb:
Any chance you can mention how much commission money Challies must be getting from Amazon alone for promoting SGM books like the ones found here:
http://www.challies.com/writings/together-for-the-gospel-2008
His affiliate ID is dietofbookwor-20 and he’s in violation of Amazon’s policies by not clearly stating that he has an affiliate relationship with them.
This wouldn’t be such a big deal if so many people weren’t convinced that Challies endorses products out of the goodness of his heart and the fact that someone who’s been around since 2002 probably knows the rules and just doesn’t want to disclose his commercial interests in SGM for some reason. 🙂
Challies says/implies in a convoluted way that he doesn’t want to spend time investigating allegations that CJ let his churches harbor sex offenders because that would show the world an un-Biblical lack of love, and he has no stake in what happens to kids in SGM churches because they aren’t in his geographic area.
But somehow he has plenty of time to focus on making a few bucks hawking CJ’s books no matter what the guy may be guilty of.
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Marshall
Have you been reading our mind? We have found out a couple of associations that are most interesting.Thank you for adding one more. Can we quote you?
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You are absolutely correct. He said it here http://www.challies.com/personal-reflections/a-desperate-jealousy@ Tempest:
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Dee, you’re welcome to quote me but I don’t want to add extra citations to your article – I’m cool just being “thoughts from a reader” and don’t even generally care if people borrow “my ideas” because all ideas are borrowed in some sense as a collaborative process.
Plus it’s not like I’m re-inventing Coca-Cola or coming up with a new Kennedy assassination theory.
The info above can easily be researched by anyone. Because I’m in the web marketing business I happen to have more insight into how Challies makes his money than the average person would.
I’m just happy to have this forum through which to get feedback about some articles I’d like to write about SGM/CLC and hopefully help protect kids from the less-than-mature adults in their lives.
I had some hard times as a young person but was lucky to have great adult role models, some of whom were not in my geographic area at the time, taking care of me. Paying that forward even a little bit is a joy I’m sorry that Tim Challies may never know.
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I can’t prove that Challies is actively “deceiving” people but it seems obvious that he has praised SGM/Mahaney in the past. Now that he may be forced to eat his words, he appears to be reluctant to do so. No one wants to be proven so gloriously wrong in such a publicly spectacular manner as a lawsuit over covered-up child molestation. So Tim Challies is human…big surprise.
That being said, those above who pointed out that bloggers can make money via sidebar ads (at least that’s what I understand from scanning Marshall’s comments) are absolutely right. If Challies is advertising SGM books in a manner like this, then yes, he is probably making some money from that, which means he does have a financial vested interest, small (?) though it may be, in SGM’s continued popularity. I imagine lots of people visit Challies blog daily – probably more than visit TWW – and most of them are probably the sorts of folks who would buy or have bought SGM material.
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Marshall
We view this blog as a collaboration of our readers. Whenever anyone gives us an idea, we like to say who did. It kind of has that “body of Christ” sort of feeling.
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I remember when Challies first became an Amazon affiliate years ago. He openly announced it, so it wasn’t a secret. A very brief, cursory search failed to bring up a current notification of his status as an affiliate though, but again I really didn’t look very hard. I think any book you buy via links from his site will send him a few pennies, so I don’t think it’s SGM-specific.
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Marshall, Amen and God Bless you.
Hester, All you say is correct. Those of us who have read Challies from almost the beginning know that there is a trajectory here. He built his career on the Reformed brand.
Others have too. And as they drop….like Driscoll and now Mahaney….and more will….there is a problem of “distancing” oneself from the fallout. Especially when it if financial. Guys like Mohler, Duncan and Dever will be ok and this fall out will not hurt them financially. It might lessen numbers of attendees at a conference or something but at the end of the day, they will have their pastorate and be a seminary president. And Piper will be a global Apostle and 21st Century John Calvin to the world.
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@ Anon 1:
“And Piper will be a global Apostle and 21st Century John Calvin to the world.”
…which boggles my mind as I’ve never heard the man say anything profound or insightful. High word count, though. : ) Is that really his plan, then, to globetrot and keep writing books?
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Hi Ladies,
We have found the practice of recycling all of our sermons, as well as our conference, workshop and blog topics because we believe in conservation and in saving energy. It sure saves us the energy of having to come up with something original and inspired that’s for sure!
So with that in mind, we thought we would recycle this “Thank You Note” we wrote to Tim Challies and posted on our blog back in August of 2011 because we couldn’t have said it better again ourselves!
http://www.girltalkhome.com/blog/thank-you
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@ Hester:
Did you see his video made in Geneva? I had such high hopes that he was retiring to a quiet, peaceful setting somewhere to live out his days serving his neighbors; maybe washing a few toilets; cleaning a few floors; working on cars . . .
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“And Piper will be a global Apostle and 21st Century John Calvin to the world.”
…which boggles my mind as I’ve never heard the man say anything profound or insightful. High word count, though. : ) Is that really his plan, then, to globetrot and keep writing books?
”
Did you not see his Geneva video? Oh my word. The guys in the white coats need to be called. He has lost it. I do wonder how much it cost to send a crew to Geneva to film that bizarre announcement about his future plans.
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Carolyn, Thanks for sharing. We all know how much you all appreciate all of Tim Challies promotions of SGM and your husband. I hope you have a screen shot!
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It’s my understanding that Challies has no seminary or bible college training. He serves as an associate pastor at his church and “became an elder in 2010”. I looked at his church’s website (under pastors) and saw three listed: the founding pastor who lists his B.A. and M.Div., and 2 others (one being Challies) who list no seminary or bible college.
http://www.gfcto.com/about/pastors
If I am supposed to accept what Challies says here:
“However, the majority of us are far on the outside with very little at stake. For this reason many of us simply do not need to have an opinion.”
I would like to know on what basis?
He says we are out of the proper jurisdiction, so to speak. That part of the body of Christ is too far away for us to worry about. (Isn’t it incredible that it is his opinion informing us that we may not have an opinion?) Nowhere in God’s word does it say we cannot be concerned for and have an opinion about other believers who are far away.
I guess I would like to know what qualifies him to say I do not need to have an opinion? The fact that he was declared an elder in 2010? The associate pastor status he acquired with no seminary/bible college education? His 3,409 consecutive days of blogging? Because he wrote a book on spiritual discernment? What is it? Theological education at least gives some weight– if one is going to act as an authority/teacher/informer…even if one doesn’t agree…one can respect the effort put forth in obtaining education. imo
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Carolyn
We are soooo excited about your comments re: the defender of the weak and gullible. Tune in on Monday when we reveal how close you all are. (I can’t take it. i am sitting here snorting.)
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Eagle wrote:
I didn’t coin the term. Some commenter at Internet Monk did in a thread about Christian Singles in 2006. I started using it because it’s a good one-liner.
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Diane, Thank you. I wish more folks would analyze their hypocritical words. Challies has an opinion that we should not have an opinion. I LOVE IT.
BTW: One thing I have seen in the Reformed YRR movement is that they tend to call lump pastor and elder into one. That is new to me. pastor has always been seen as a function in the body in my tradition. More of a verb than a position. It is just one of those strange things. It could be that an “elder” is because it is more accepted they are not theologically educated? So calling them an elder that pastors makes it more acceptable?
I have no idea. I just found it strange. it seems to make pastor more a noun. Which I do not like
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“Did you not see his Geneva video? Oh my word. The guys in the white coats need to be called. He has lost it. I do wonder how much it cost to send a crew to Geneva to film that bizarre announcement about his future plans.”
Did I read something about his wife being there with him? A working vacation? Make a video in an afternoon and have a nice vacation.
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Hester wrote:
Hester, you made me laugh. 🙂 I guess Piper never figured out that brevity is the soul of wit!
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“Did I read something about his wife being there with him? A working vacation? Make a video in an afternoon and have a nice vacation.”
Maybe he was “working on the garden of his marriage” like he did when he had to take a 6 mo Sabbatical but only after speaking on stages all over for years on how to have a Gospel marriage? We thought he had one! Hope his followers can afford 6 mo Sabbaticals to work on the garden of their marriages after following his teaching.
Sheesh! These guys are such fakes.
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So calling them an elder that pastors makes it more acceptable?
He is both, according to the info under his name. Maybe you’re right about- elder equals ok for no education…I have no idea. Challies says that he serves as an “associate pastor”. Taking it from what I know, is an associate pastor like a nurse’s aid for a registered nurse (head pastor) maybe? But even our nurse’s aids go through a several month course at the community college. And for a nurse’s aid to have the authority to take someone’s BP, (s)he needs the training.
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From Challies’ church’s website under links/resources:
“Sovereign Grace Ministries. A tremendous resource for Christian music, books, conferences, church planting initiatives, and various other resources.”
http://www.gfcto.com/links
Trememdous resource for church planting initiatives. Would that include SGM head honcho C.J. Mahaney’s own Louisville church plant as an example of such awesome tremendousness? The cut and run church plant initiative? The do what I say not as I do church plant initiative?
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@ Anon 1 & Bridget:
I didn’t see the Geneva video – the flu ran through my house and it got lost in the shuffle, I guess. I’ll definitely have to watch it now.
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@ lilyrosemary:
“I guess Piper never figured out that brevity is the soul of wit!”
Or – Johnny, you’ve been Strunked! ; ) I’d love to put proofreading marks in red ink all over my copy of Don’t Waste Your Life.
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@ Hester:
“Omit needless words”! I’m an editor by trade so I like your reference. Piper must have read a different usage guide: “Use as many flowery psuedo-poetic words as possible, interspersed with dramatic sighs … but whatever you do, avoid saying anything actually profound or insightful …”
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To our readers about the pedophile usher and Crossway-SGM Charlotte
Update: My phone call was not returned which is not a surprise. I am in the process of reviewing newspaper stories and talking with former members. Their stories are consistent and believable. Unless we get a thoughtful denial, TWW will run with the story on Wednesday. This is not a story from the past. It is a story from 2010 and is ongoing. If it is true, it is deeply disturbing. It is hard to believe that such a thing allegedly occurred when lessons should have been learned. I am praying that it is not true But, I am very, very concerned.
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Guys, thanks for such interesting posts, esp Meg and TW.
Re Mr Challies’ qualifications, I believe that being an elder in many churches where eldership is the system does not necessarily require formal qualifications. On the other hand I would myself mentally associate the title of “Associate Pastor” with some sort of training… but it’s not clear from the Grace Fellowship Church whether Mr Challies has had any training, or whether he does any other full-time job (I have the impression that his ministry is his full-time job). That is not necessarily criticism, btw.
However I think if one offers strong opinions, particularly in contentious areas (calling Bible reading in church a teaching ministry, for example) then one lays oneself open to having one’s credentials examined.
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@ lilyrosemary:
I’m certainly not against long sentences…but the key word in Strunk’s dictum is “needless.” Personally I’m convinced that Don’t Waste Your Life could probably have been ~85 pages, tops, prob. more like 50. 300+ was completely “needless.” : )
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It’s Too Bad Challies Isn’t Available to Answer Questions About His Business Relationships
@ M:
M, I appreciate the thoughtful comments.
BTW, I’d love to ask Challies about his business arrangements directly but he’s closed down comments on his site about the article I’m referencing and has a reputation for deleting comments about subjects he doesn’t want to talk about. Thus I’m surprised that people (not necessarily you) are complaining about how his recent comments about SGM are being portrayed.
Thanks for the information about Challies initially announcing he was an Amazon affiliate. That’s good.
However he’s not in compliance with Amazon’s guidelines if you can’t find a disclaimer easily on his site right now, and many folks don’t seem to know that his reviews are not neutral given all the “why are you picking on poor selfless Tim Challies” posts out there right now.
I also don’t think that Amazon is his biggest source of revenue but bet he gets a 4 figure monthly check from them, a substantial portion of which is attached to sales of SGM books or TG4G books, based on the number of posts people have found referencing those entities on his blog.
Yes, you only get 60 cents on the books but score a wopping $50 if someone throws an HD TV in their cart while they’re shopping through your link. Thus there’s lots of value in being TG4G’s official video-grapher even if you’re not directly paid for the privilege.
I would also argue that Challies decision not to comply with privacy policy laws in Canada or disclose his affiliate arrangements is designed to create the impression that he’s running some sort of selfless Biblical book review ministry, that just makes a few pennies here and there, rather than a business through which he makes a pretty good living.
Regarding SGM specifically, the problem is that Challies has repeatedly falsely claimed that he has no substantive business relationship with SGM as a rationale for not taking a stand on its big sex abuse scandal and the legal strategies its leaders are using to try and protect themselves from the consequences of their actions.
That’s causing a lot of folks to question Challies integrity and qualifications as a Godly leader of conviction.
At this point, I’ll wait for Dee and Deb’s piece on Monday rather than re-hash my points.
Thanks again for the comments.
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I think the fact that Challies has a vested interest in defending C.J. Mahaney has been well established, but lest anyone should still think he is just a neutral, disinterested third party observer here is a quote from Brent Detwiler:
“My counsel to John Piper is the same as my counsel to Tim Challies from one and half years ago when he defended C.J. and condemn me as a slanderer on his blog.
“I hope you will read all of my documents and also my posts at BrentDetwiler.com. That’s required reading if you are going to post about me. What you fail to realize is the pervasive and profound nature of problems in SGM. Hundreds, if not thousands of people have been mishandled and mistreated. You don’t have two anti-SGM blogs, SGM Survivors and SGM Refuge, because of disagreements between C.J. and me. You really must get educated about the depth and breadth of ungodly practices that have existed in the movement. You haven’t done your homework. You also fail to recognize the long term and serious nature of C.J.’s sins. Many men have brought many charges for many years against C.J.” (Brent Detwiler, A Brief Response to Tim Challies, August 17, 2011)”
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2013/2/22/john-pipers-unqualified-endorsement-of-cj-mahaney-breaks-hea-1.html
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If Challies hasn’t read Brent’s documents then Challies really has no business defending or writing blog about the “biblical” way to treat Mahaney and SGM. Challies apparently has chosen to live in blissful ignorance about Mahaney’s sin and hypocrisy.
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I think that it is sad, perhaps the saddest consequence of evangelical biblicism, that the Tim Challieses of the world use scripture to justify their bad behavior; and not just use it, but use it with seemingly no twinge of remorse. The archives of this and countless other blogs are replete with similar examples. I don’t know, but I suspect that this is the natural outworking of what appears to be a view that the bible = God. Unfortunately the epidemic shows no signs of abating and that doesn’t bode well for those entrapped in that system of belief. This brings to mind this verse:
When he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd. – Matthew 9:36
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@ Clay Crouch:
I think you are right. We run into trouble when we put anything in place of God, even good things like the Bible. This is the most subtle and insidious kind of temptation, because it allows us to justify bad things by covering them in a thin veneer of good. In this case, those entrapped in this system of belief get to keep our own egos at the center of their universe instead of God, all the while believing that because they are impeccably following (their own self-serving interpretation) of Scripture, they are beyond reproach.
Sheep without a shepherd, indeed.
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TW
Challies’s connection to SGM will be illuminated on Monday thanks to some research by Deb. It should embarrass him, but it won’t. Being a Calvinista means it is OK not to divulge some things because it is done to the glory of the movement.
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Steve240
Ignorance is bliss except when God knows that you are not ignorant. I want Deb to stress this.Tim Challies was contacted by Kris at SGM Survivors (Way to go, Kris) a long time ago. He knew, darn it, he knew and instead chose to prop up some people he has been in bed with for quite awhile. Coming on Monday….
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As to Piper’s retirement, I am waiting on pins and needles to see what RISKY things he signs up for along with his wife. After all, he’s the one who wrote an entire book, “Don’t Waste Your Life” teaching the rest of us that unless we’re out there doing big, risky things for God, including risking our lives that we are big fat Christian zeros. Somehow, I doubt he’ll follow the same advice he’s been feeding the rest of us.
Yes, I am angry for being sucked into that mindset. I am currently recovering from the burnout of trying to live in like Piper teaches.
The world ooooohed and ahhhhhhed about how great it was that he took an 8 months leave of absence to naval gaze. Really, who can afford to do that?? Only wealthy, privileged mega pastors.
And now Crossway publishing, riding the success wave of David Platt’s “Radical” has released “Risk is Right” by John Piper, which is nothing original, but merely a reprinting if one of the chapters from the book, “Don’t Waste Your Life.” Forward by David Platt. Fleecing the flock is good business. As for Challies, he left a glowing five star review on amazon for the book.
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Dee
Re: “He admits that his head is plunked firmly in the gospel ground because learning about how churches approach child sex abuse “is not spiritually beneficial and reflects poor time management.”
All of a sudden, Challies has identified himself as a bit of an expert on Christian time management. Could he be the next neo-cal version of Steven Covey (author of best seller “Seven Habits of Highly Effective People”). Could he be planning a new book “Seven Habits of Highly Effective Neo-Cals”, with another endorsement by CJ?
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“All of a sudden, Challies has identified himself as a bit of an expert on Christian time management. Could he be the next neo-cal version of Steven Covey (author of best seller “Seven Habits of Highly Effective People”). Could he be planning a new book “Seven Habits of Highly Effective Neo-Cals”, with another endorsement by CJ?”
Oh yes! This is a great question. How about the “One Minute Christian”? A bit dated but Blanchard took his “servant leadership” model to megas back in the 90’s.
Challies could explain biblically why it is poor time management for Christians to acknowledge broken abused people….from toxic churches.
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“Ignorance is bliss except when God knows that you are not ignorant. I want Deb to stress this.Tim Challies was contacted by Kris at SGM Survivors (Way to go, Kris) a long time ago. He knew, darn it, he knew and instead chose to prop up some people he has been in bed with for quite awhile.”
I was thinking about this the other night after reading 1 Tim 1. Paul talks about those deceived out of ignorance and those who deceive on purpose.
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Marshall, Thank you so much for your informative comments. I am learning a lot.
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SGM Detox coming up just minutes from now 11am Eastern at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/vincecoakley
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Dee –
There was discussion on Survivors this past week about a book review that Challies did on “Feminine Appeal” by Carolyn Mahaney. Someone shared an excerpt from the book and pointed out the terrible exegesis that Carolyn developed. It didn’t seem that Mr. Challies was very discerning about what he read, or possibly didn’t read at all, though the book received a glowing review.
Let’s not forget that Challies is also one of the “women can’t read scripture out loud during our Sunday service” guys. He is a biblical literalist with the best if them. I just want to know when all these literalists are going to cut off their hand or gouge out an eye, or maybe put their own child to death.
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Did this fellow have Challies in mind?
“I would then encourage you to ignore … blogs, and that you discount the opinings of those who have no real knowledge of these matters or relation to SGM or authority to comment upon them, and that you refrain from assuming that you (or they) are in a position to render judgment on these things.”
Ligon Duncan, 07/12/11
(ellipses … Mine to remove any reference to Wounded People)
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Dave, I could not get past “opinings” for a while but once I did I had to crack up at “those who have no real knowledge of the matter…. (first hand narrative?) OR “authority” to comment upon them”
Does he not realize he outed the entire T4G movement with that? It is all about them having “authority”. They get to decide….which is EXACTLY why there is an SGM scandal!
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@ Bridget:
Before I read Feminine Appeal, I had no idea what SGM was. My wife and daughters had pointed out the terrible exegesis to me. Then there were some horrible anecdotes. For example, to summarize one story: “I volunteered to cook dinner for a new mom. I tried to make a really fancy meal (to impress the other church ladies) but didn’t have the time. CJ suggested I pick up some KFC (he really likes Louisville and its YUM center). Moral to the story? Don’t compete with the other church ladies? No…. Don’t overburden yourself with church commitments? No…..
Da Moral? Oh, Duh!!! (Slaps forehead) I forgot to ask CJ’s permission!!!!”
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@ Anon 1:
I’m LOL as it occurs to me– I deleted Duncan’s reference to Wounded People and inserted “…”
T4G and TGC wish they could just delete all Wounded People and make them “…” 🙂
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“It takes a great deal of courage to stand up to your enemies, but even more to stand up to your friends,”
J.K. Rowling
Something for Challies & Co to consider.
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@ Anon 1:
And they have fingers firmly in ears to AVOID hearing anyone with first-hand knowledge of the matter, except he current “authorities”. Even hundreds of pages of documents or hundreds or emails from former “authorities”.
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“Fleecing the flock is good business. As for Challies, he left a glowing five star review on amazon for the book.”
2Peter 2:3 “In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.” NIV
Jude 16 “These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.” NIV
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Dave,
So now….CJ is going to have to listen…I doubt if his hierarchical peers will be around to listen, too, if it gets to that point.
And CJ will listen to a woman in “authority”.
Poetic justice?
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@ Anon 1:
If what CJ hears from the woman in authority is unpleasant, his buddies will just say “We only met him for a few minutes… Not his friend..Can’t state an opinion without more facts.. Waiting to hear Other Side TM”
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Dave A A, I’ve been at clc since it was gob. I know bits and pieces of facts about all the law suite stories. Does that make me qualified to think? Or talk. I have talked to Susan Burke.
My kids know things, as well, but they won’t talk. What happened with some of our kids is unbelievable and I wish they would talk. But this blog is for old people (they think). They’re done with church. This is abuse just as much as child sex abuse. It needs to be stopped. And CJ is responsible for an awful lot.
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@ Bridget:
In fact, Feminine Appeal changed my life! I tell truth to say that if I hadn’t read Feminine Appeal, I likely would have missed the chance to learn so much from those Appealing Feminine blog queens, Dee and Deb.
(All while trying hard not to violate my Biblical Masculinity by thinking of them as Pastresses or Authorities, of course.)
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Bridget/Deb
I was jsut explaining to my husband tht Challes does not allow females to read Scripture out loud in church. he also had a lesson on diction about how to properly breathe and enunciate when reading Scrpture which would most likely leave out anyone who has COPD and a stutter, even if they are male. These guys can’t leave their “rules” off anything.
As for his actualy reading of books, he is either a speed reader on the level of Superman of there is something a bit suspect. I think he has done 686 reviews for Amazon and is a top review ranked at 320! Proof found at this link. http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/AEYEAH3C78BBZ
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turtle wrote:
Of course not! 🙂 You’re just a sheep! Josh isn’t qualified either! He just has an ax to grind! Abuse victims aren’t qualified neither! They’re just bitter! Why, did you know, some of them have become sinners and turned their backs on God? Shame on naughty abuse victim! If I were an abuse victim I wouldn’t get bitter! Guaranteed! And outsiders like me and Challies and Duncan and Mohler and Dever? Definitely not qualified because we don’t know NUTTIN!”
“And CJ is responsible for an awful lot.” An awful lot of awful. 🙁
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Dee and Deb, I wish my kids would talk to you about their stories. I feel this is at the crux of the matter. I just don’t know how to explain what I’m trying to say. Their stories are the fruit of sgm’s mess.
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By the way, i just wanted to mention that while its certainly true Challies gave Piper’s piece, “Risk is Right” a glowing review at Amazon, he gave it 4-Star rather than a 5-Star rating.
The reason? It’s not a book. As one commenter wrote, “Book? While I enjoyed reading this, I need to be more careful next time I order. I was looking for a book to read, not a short little pamphlet.”
“Risk is Right” is simply one chapter excerpted out of Piper’s book, “Don’t Waste Your Life.” It’s only like 51 pages long similiar to his “What’s the Difference?” which was a chapter out of the book, “Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” edited by Piper and Wayne Grudem. And the commenter is right, it is no book, but it is being sold for nearly the price of a 250 page book.
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dee
Challies review of Piper’s “Risk is Right” was almost as long as the “book.”
Piece of cake!
More like a “Pamphlet Review”!
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turtle wrote:
Turtle, this is something that’s a real burden on my heart too. Our children need to talk and share their stories. My heart ache for the second generation SGM kids because they got the double whammy. They had to obey their parents who obeyed SGM. Us “old people” chose to join SGM. They had no choice. I think there’s a need for a seperate and distinct ministry for them, to bring them out from under it all and into the light. But they’re busy with life just trying to do the best they can. Of course there’s still the long shadow that continues to be cast by some of the SGM offspring who have swallowed their SGM parents indoctrination hook, line and sinker and became just like their Pastor or Caregroup Leader parents: conforming their lives to the SGM-way and relating to their peers like they weren’t good enough unless they did the same.
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“I think there’s a need for a seperate and distinct ministry for them, to bring them out from under it all and into the light.”
I agree, Evie. I know they are busy and do not really see how deeply it affected them but one day it will rear its ugly head as they grow older. Perhaps we could appeal to they are helping others by talking?
They desperately need to be affirmed and told that what they lived through there has nothing to with King Jesus. Even though they used Jesus to try and control people.
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However, the majority of us are far on the outside with very little at stake.
I would beg to differ. If Christianity is being dragged into the mud by believers acting in an un-Christlike manner, we need to respond accordingly.
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Yes, Evie I was incorrect on Challies’ star count for Risk. I should have rechecked.
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M. Joy The thing is it was essentially a 5-Star rating. He reserved the rating ONLY BECAUSE it was an an excerpt from a book and not an sctual book.
I thought your comment was excellent by the way M. Joy. I’m with you on Piper pushing the whole risk your life message on others as questionable. Sounds good, but then what’s that deal of his about talking about his death threats? And is going from conference venue to conference venue giving a one-size-fits-all message to a crowd an example of risky living?
At this point I get the impression John Piper is putting himself out there instead of being sent, know what I’m saying? And if that’s the case, I can imagine him attempting to generate stories of being in danger as a way of proving to others his mission, his ministry, and as validation for his asking people to contribute financially toward all his trsvels into foreign lands. Its like I sense he’s hoping for his life to be threatened like Paul’s was.
I should have said these things earlier. Sorry that my comment about the stars seemed corrective. I found your comment intriguing and informative. It made me look into the whole situation. Thanks!
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Evie
Tune in on Monday to discover why Challies likes books that are short. The answer may surprise you.
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singleman
I agree. If there is one child being abused or neglected anywhere, there is eternity art stake. Shame on Challies.
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M. Joy
I saw a posy I forget where, on how to push a book on Amazon. They said to give some 4s to make it seem like you are being objective. I giggled when I saw it. Its smoke and mirrors.
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Anon 1 wrote:
Thank you Anon 1, you’re so right. They need affirmation! But I can see how they would be wary of unpacking their baggage among people their parents ages. In some stories I read, the kids had to rebel against their abusive parents who were supported by SGM leadership in their insistance upon their child’s submission and obedience!! That’s a tough row to hoe, especially when you’re enmeshed and surrounded by a culture you’re trapped in that poised to pounce on any “wrong” move you make! Its insidious!
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Evie
I am so mad about what I know I could spit! I think others will be as well.
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dee wrote:
I’ve got my finger on the dial Dee, ready to tune in. If its a short post I’m already prepared to give it just 4-stars just so you know. But I know how you and Deb do a thorough job. Looking forward to it! I’m sure its going to be good. Dang. Challies has stepped.in.it, hasn’t he?
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Help
I have lost the link to the Piper-Apostle to the World- video. Does anyone have it?
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Here you go Dee.
http://vimeo.com/50857619
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“At this point I get the impression John Piper is putting himself out there instead of being sent, know what I’m saying? And if that’s the case, I can imagine him attempting to generate stories of being in danger as a way of proving to others his mission, his ministry, and as validation for his asking people to contribute financially toward all his trsvels into foreign lands. Its like I sense he’s hoping for his life to be threatened like Paul’s was. ”
There is another aspect to this I think is worth analyzing. Not long ago a YRR youth pastor told me that Piper was the greatest evangelist of our time. I asked him politely to rethink that. Piper has spent his career preaching/teaching audiences of professed believers. And many of those audiences have been aspiring or current pastors. That does not mean he has NEVER spoken to non believers it is just not what he is known for. I asked him to take that into consideration.
So why do these young men think he is an evangelist as that is not the first time I have heard him referred to that way? For one reason he preaches to these audiences as if they are not saved. Anyone else ever notice that? That is one reason folks miss some of the glaring problems with his doctrine and illustrations. Some people think that is good because they say most believers are not really saved. But Piper preaches almost constantly from a Justification point of view. His followers never really get past the milk and into the meat of living out that life in Christ. They are busy being saved all the time. They are stuck at the cross, too, but in a much more subtle way than how other Reformed guys are more obvious. Piper is so flowery and verbose most don’t see it. Being stuck at the cross seems to be a tenent of this YRR movement but communicated in various forms.
Perhaps, Piper wants to now be a real evangelist. Let us see how that works. Too seek unbelievers, he will have to get his hands dirty.
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I Think Your Monday Article Will Be a Relief to Many Folks, Dee and Deb
Thanks, Anon. I like your posts too. You’re right about Challies only being successful because he was the first savvy internet marketer to come through the Neo-Reformed door. Maybe you should go into web marketing if the nuances of it interest you. I think you’d be more fun to read than Challies!
Dee and Deb: I find getting angry at Challies personally, hard, because he seems to be an empty suit that just does what Mahaney and Mohler tell him to do. I think his article was a trial run to see how people would react to some of the arguments the bigger fish would like to use in weaseling out of associating with Mahaney without outright condemning him. I doubt they’ll repeat the “don’t interfere with sex abuse cases unless they’re in your own Church” argument as it didn’t go over well in any geographic area.
I’m mad at folks with more brain-power like Mohler, Powlison, and Piper, who won’t either disavow or re-affirm their support for Mahaney, regarding the allegations against him in the class-action lawsuit and the fact that we know he clearly failed to teach pastors how to run Churches where children can be safe.
Also, I’ve surfed around and lots of people intuitively know that Challies gets paid by SGM and friends (e.g. the TG4G guys of which Mahaney/SGM is a big part) but are frustrated that they can’t prove he’s not disclosing his financial stake in SGM.
Thus I think your article on Monday, proving that Challies has not been truthful about his business interests regarding SGM, will be very helpful.
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“I think his article was a trial run to see how people would react to some of the arguments the bigger fish would like to use in weaseling out of associating with Mahaney without outright condemning him. I doubt they’ll repeat the “don’t interfere with sex abuse cases unless they’re in your own Church” argument as it didn’t go over well in any geographic area.”
I totally agree with this assessment. He has done what I thought at the time were trial balloons on other topics in the past. In fact, I suspect he does this at request or suggestion of others.
I agree with you he is an empty suit. But is ranked #2 Christian blog and that carries lots of weight.
http://www.invesp.com/blog-rank/Christianity
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M. Joy wrote:
That’s a good quote.
Unfortunately, some kinds of Christians heavily play into “guilt by association” or the “poison the well” fallacy, and would automatically dismiss the sentiment of the quote only because it comes from
a.) a woman and / or
b.) author of the Harry Potter books.
I know the Bible frowns on occultic stuff, but I never quite understood the vehemence against the Harry Potter books (which is heavily into occult, but if your child is already well- grounded in the faith, that should not matter too much).
Some preachers today still use Harry Potter as a cultural reference to condemn, they are so out of touch. Some preachers still condemn and warn parents about the 10+ year old Harry Potter franchise, and in the mean time, there have been shiny vampires in Twilight, The Hunger Games, and other popular films and books.
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ES wrote:
That seems to fly in the face of Apostle Paul’s instructions here, to other Christians:
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dee wrote:
I remember seeing that mentioned on another blog months ago.
Yes, hurting people need architectural additions. They bring such comfort /sarcasm.
I’m not against beauty or the arts, but it does seem misplaced to spend so much on such an expensive water fountain.
I wonder if that church also provides some kind of free, safe showering facilities for homeless people?
A $12 mil water fountain. LOL. How absurd (and a little sad).
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dee wrote:
Is the Girl Talk blog a parody of the “Girls Gone Wise” blog? I’m usually bright enough to spot satire and parody when I see it, but in this case, not so much.
There sure were a lot of photos of babies on the Girl Talk site. Babies sleeping on books. On chairs. On bed spreads.
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Daisy –
Girl Talk is the real blog of the Mahaney “girls.” Someone has been doing a parody on TWW as if they are Carolyn.
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Anon 1 wrote:
My Mom used to garden.
Gardening is a “gender neutral” activity, but I guess since from my earliest memories I recall my Mom being such an avid gardener, if I had to classify gardening, I usually view it as more a feminine pursuit.
Not that I think it’s wrong or weird for a guy to garden.
My point is, Piper’s gardening reference is ironic, because Piper thinks men should avoid feminine pursuits and females male roles.
Not that I personally care if a guy wants to garden, nor do I think it detracts from his manhood if he does. Adam in the book of Genesis was a gardner.
I’m only saying if you go by Piper’s own views on gender, combined and my childhood association of ‘gardening = mostly womanly,'(due to my Mom’s hobby of flower tending), his analogy of his marriage repair to gardening, means, from my view, he’s not adhering to gender roles. He’s being feminine on that. Funny.
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Bridget wrote:
Oh, so the blog is real, but the person posting here is parodying one of the ladies from the blog. Okay, I see. Sorry to be so dense.
I’ve never seen so many sleeping babies as I have on that blog, btw.
There are more sleeping baby photos on that blog than there are in the Sunday JC Penny baby crib and PJ advertisements.
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I didn’t word my thoughts on gardening in my last post too clearly. I hope everyone understood what I meant.
Maybe it would be more clear if I put it like this. If Piper wants to sound manly (using his own rules about gender) about comparing restoring his marriage to something, he should have taken a page out of Driscoll’s book and used cage fighting or wrestling for his marriage, not gardening.
That way, Piper could have said he was “wrestling” with his marriage. Or fighting for it.
His wife, he could say, was ‘tending to the garden’ that was his marriage.
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@ Anon 1:
“But Piper preaches almost constantly from a Justification point of view. His followers never really get past the milk and into the meat of living out that life in Christ. They are busy being saved all the time. They are stuck at the cross, too, but in a much more subtle way than how other Reformed guys are more obvious. Piper is so flowery and verbose most don’t see it. Being stuck at the cross seems to be a tenent of this YRR movement but communicated in various forms.”
This is spot-on about how the YRR/Neo-Calvinist teaching keeps people “stuck” on getting saved/re-saved/doubting their salvation. They basically ask you to obsess over your sin, because they say that if you aren’t constantly “sorrowing” over it or “hating” it then you aren’t taking it seriously. They ask questions like, “What are you repenting of today?” – as if you are constantly thinking about a particular, specific, detailed sin. And since, of course, you are (I suppose) still totally depraved, you never run out of things to repent of so…THINK ABOUT SIN AND HOW ROTTEN YOU ARE ALL THE TIME. And pray (daily and perfectly: anything short of that is probably a sign that you’re lost).
All of the above, of course, leaves no room for actually serving and quickly leads you to the conclusion that you’re not saved. And my ex-pastor at the PCA actually did use the phrase “preach the Gospel to yourself.” He also interpreted basically everything through the prism of Don’t Waste Your Life. He recommended that book to everybody and advised his parishioners to give it to their unsaved friends.
I don’t mean any of the above to bash repentance or prayer…which are important. But it’s a matter of degree and extent.
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dee wrote:
I certainly didn’t say or mean to imply “ignorance is bliss.” My guess is that Challies reason for not reading Brent’s documents is that he knows they have something in there that he wouldn’t want to know and would have to change his stance on Mahaney. Thus he chose not to read Brent documents and can write what he does and claim to not have any knowledge of Mahaney’s sin and hypocrisy.
I am looking forward to reading your post on Monday about Challies and his ties with SGM.
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@ Daisy:
He probably gets that garden metaphor from Song of Solomon 4:12-16.
“A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse, a spring shut up, a fountain sealed. Your plants are an orchard of pomegranates with pleasant fruits, fragrant henna with spikenard, spikenard and saffron, calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense, myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices – a fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon. Awake, O north wind, and come, O south! Blow upon my garden, that its spices may flow out. Let my beloved come to his garden and eat its pleasant fruits.”
I seem to recall that these verses may also have been involved in Driscoll’s sex sermon.
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M. Joy wrote:
Piper must mean risk is for males only.
Because guys like him teach that a woman’s only biblical or appropriate roles are as a wife and mother.
If you are a married woman living a typical American, suburban, middle class, married- and- motherhood life, you’re probably not taking on too much risky living.
If you are a woman, even if you learn Karate, Piper says, if you’re on a date being mugged, you are not to use your Karate expertise to repel the attacker, but let your husband/ boy friend get beat up. No risk taking there.
The Pipers of the world discourage females from taking risks or being risky. I wonder if his “Risk” book contains such a disclaimer on the book jacket or the preface?
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@ Daisy:
Well, DWYL wasn’t written from a males-only perspective…so I would assume that he meant risk was for everybody. Though for him to preach that in one book, while eliminating all routes to risk for females in another, is pretty hypocritical.
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“But it’s a matter of degree and extent.”
Hester, this is key. And one reason it is almost impossible to discuss this with a YRR type. They automatically ask you if you think you are sinless or if sinless perfection is attainable. . Or they tell you the bible says you have a “wicked heart”. It is an “either/or” false dichotomy. While it is more “both/and”. Makes having a convo about it impossible. It really is absurd to try and even discuss it with the YRR pastor types.
Yes, we are sinners because we are born in corrupted bodies into a corrupted earth, sin attaches itself to us. But we can grow in maturity and holiness in sanctification. We can actually sin less and less as we grow in Christ with the help of the Holy Spirit. Problem is, we won’t need them or their doctrine if we do that!
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“All of the above, of course, leaves no room for actually serving and quickly leads you to the conclusion that you’re not saved.”
Oh, I was going to say, that yes, it leaves you no time to BE a Christian. I have an extended family member going through it right now. She became a New Calvinist about 4 years ago and even practices shunning. She has lost her joy and all she does is go deep with her sin and everyone elses.
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@ Hester:
It also makes me wonder if he gave his book much thought, how it would come across to women.
Telling Christians to take risks in one book, while telling half of them (females) in other books or lectures, that their only options in life are motherhood, being a wife, and that even in the marriage element, their husbands get to make all final decisions….
How is a female supposed to take any risks or meaningful risks under those confining, very narrow roles and circumstances?
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Anon 1 wrote:
Interesting comment Anon 1.
Piper’s expensive “Apostle to the World” video shot on location in Geneva, Switerland can be watched in Korean, Portuguese or Spanish subtitles, did you notice that? From what I’ve read, Piper sees his Desiring God (DG) ministry going global through the internet in what he refers to as its third phase, or “DG 3.0.”
They are trying to dump their DG inventory by closing the bookstore, getting out of the “selling business,” and asking people to buy stuff in bulk for distribution. Everything is being offered at the DG site, apparently, for $5 with an emphasis on bulk orders for less per item. Amazon will be handling all the “selling business” from now on as their “partner.” And of course you are asked to be a partner, too, by ordering books and sending in donations but unlike Amazon, your partnership doesn’t include any dividends aside from getting ongoing future updates about how the globe is being transformed by distribution of the DG materials that will be made available online in various languages using advanced technology that you will be asked to partner up and pay for, no doubt.
So, yes, just imagine what a dirty job it will be sending your messages, books and materials out there over the internet to faceless people. But John Piper is going to work hard being the face of his message by doing lots of traveling and promises “I will spend and be spent for this till I can speak and write no more.”
But as you say, how effective can he be at evangelism when his labors thus far have been in the field of believers? How messy can it be addressing people whose lives have already been transformed, whom he imagines needing saved? His target audience seems to have been nice men in pastoral ministry. How would that prepare him to get out there at his age and expose himself to an audience of actual godless hedonists and not just believers who he sees as in need of his Christian Hedonism?
So idk. I think Piper has a passion for God. But it seems he assumes to embody a message that is so relevant to today’s world that he must spread it as far and wide as possible, mainly through the internet. But he seems out of touch as evidenced by his support of CJ Mahaney and his resent missionary journey to Louisville to preach at SGCL, as well as his ongoing bizarre-o comments revealing how deeply intrenched his legalistic views of gender roles are. Is this a man revealing himself as prepared for the world stage? I, for one, have some serious doubts.
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It was always my understanding that in DWYL, Piper was talking about both men and women. I think it was in the first chapter of that book where he berated the man and woman who were picking up seashells on the beach? I’m away from home right now and don’t have the book right here, but that’s what I remember.
We were in a reformed church that followed Piper’s teachings. Members who went to the mission field were revered, praised and held up as the example of what we should all be. (especially dangerous places)I remember our pastor once told the entire congregation from the pulpit that it was his hope that one day, we would ALL be sent out.
I could tell stories that would make your jaw drop. Some families who had no business going in the mission field were approved for missions and the results were not pretty. Perhaps I’ll have a chance to share more on this topic another time, but right now I’m typing this reply on my phone and am running out of patience. :-/
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Daisy wrote:
Omgosh Daisy I asked myself the same question!!
After all Pipe recently said when under attack, a woman who has a black-belt should step out if the way if a man is with her, because she needs to allow the man to protect her! That’s called not taking a risk, women. That’s calling stepping aside and allowing men to do all the risky business. Seems his message was pretty clear: risk taking is not for women. It would make her too “manly.” She needs to be inactive so men can appear manly. Meanwhile Pipers wife appears to be twice as strong as he is. Just sayin.
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@ Daisy, Evie & M. Joy:
“Telling Christians to take risks in one book…”
Not only telling them to, implying throughout that they are some kind of sub-Christian if they don’t. So I guess, following that logic, that women must be ordained by God to be permanently “less” Christian than men…?
“I think it was in the first chapter of that book where he berated the man and woman who were picking up seashells on the beach?”
It’s so funny, literally everyone I’ve ever mentioned this book to brings up that seashells thing immediately. I didn’t read the whole book, only the beginning and then sections, and I never ran across that story.
Isn’t it about a couple who spends their retirement on the beach collecting shells or something? My immediate thought after I first heard it was, “Wow, that was awfully judgmental of you, Pipes. I guess you’d rather this couple go do something they both hate just to make sure they don’t ‘waste’ their life, or to make themselves ‘holier’? Rather than bonding and strengthening their marriage (like you allegedly want all couples to do)?” Maybe they’re ‘tending the garden of their marriage’ too… ; )
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@ Anon 1:
“I have an extended family member going through it right now. She became a New Calvinist about 4 years ago and even practices shunning. She has lost her joy and all she does is go deep with her sin and everyone elses.”
I know, it’s bizarre what it does to your brain. Even a few months away from it and you look back and scratch your head. I have “self-examination” sin lists lying around from when I was into this stuff (and I wasn’t hardly into it at all, compared to the people discussed here) made up almost entirely of attitude minutiae and emotional vagaries. Frankly most of it was probably imaginary/manufactured.
IMO the whole method also impairs your ability to see sins you commit outside your mind and emotions, because it insists that you zero in on your mental state moment by moment. Like this:
“I wasn’t passionately paying attention to every SECOND of the pastor’s sermon! Oh no! I have a cold lukewarm heart!”
“I had a fleeting thought of ‘Wow, that sounds really uncomfortable’ when I heard the phrase ‘self-denial’! I’M GOING TO HELL!”
“I’m not praying earnestly enough! I must be lost!”
It would be funny if it wasn’t true. And if a YRR read what I just wrote above, he’d jump down my throat about “not taking sin seriously” yadda yadda yadda.
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M. Joy wrote:
What’s Piper got against picking up seashells?
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@ Pam: Pam wrote:
I haven’t read the book, but based on other people’s comments here so far who have read it, I take it that Piper thinks anything less than swimming with a knife in your teeth through shark-infested waters to hand out Bibles to heathen on some island is slacking off.
I suppose his message is your retirement years should not be spent relaxing and taking leisurely strolls on a beach collecting shells, but going through Navy seal training and parachuting into Taliban compounds with Chick tracts in hand.
I’ve seen Charles Stanley (tele-evangelist and pastor of a church in Atlanta) say the same thing in some of his sermons.
Stanley likes to tell his viewers that the Bible doesn’t teach once you retire from a job that you’re supposed to go fishing.
There’s a younger pastor and author who has a weekly show on a Christian network who preaches along the same lines.
His name is Kyle Idleman, and the show he hosts is called “Not A Fan.” The show also follows the exploits of a lukewarm Average Joe American Christian whose brush with death makes him change his views on life.
Kyle’s message is that anything less than 24 hour a day, 7 day a week, on fire for Jesus living means you’re slacking off, or not a follower, but a mere fan.
So the fictional Average Joe on the show sells his big suburban home, quits his lucrative job, and he starts working in a soup kitchen. He gets rid of all his business suits.
I’m not against charity. I’m not against Christians down-sizing, or any thing like that, but I do have a little bit of a problem with pastors or TV shows that try to make Christians feel guilty if they don’t live an extreme austere, impoverished live for Christ.
I’m not saying Christians should be selfish or materialistic, but I’m also wary of pastors who try to make other Christians live out some religious ideal that sounds pretty extreme.
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The thing that strikes me about the risk-your-life type theology is that it ignores that fact that most people in western countries are living those nice comfortable lives. The seashell collectors can share the gospel with fellow beach-combers, the high-flying executive can share the gospel with people as he sits in an airport departure lounge, the well-off housewife can share the gospel with her neighbour. It seems such a stupid thing to have to say, but ‘mundane’ people need to hear the gospel too!
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@ Pam:
“The thing that strikes me about the risk-your-life type theology is that it ignores that fact that most people in western countries are living those nice comfortable lives. … It seems such a stupid thing to have to say, but ‘mundane’ people need to hear the gospel too!”
It seems also to me to devalue middle- or upper-class people – by which I mean, God doesn’t only value the hearts and souls of poor people or foreigners.
Also the impression I always got from these guys is that they don’t like any kind of evangelism except explicit and quick Gospel-sharing – living out your faith in front of your unsaved neighbors and helping people is “just an excuse to not share the Gospel.” You’re supposed to select your Unsaved Evangelism Target and Gospel-bomb them with Jesus’ message not to waste their lives. Getting to know them first, so they trust you and don’t just write you off as an obnoxious proselytizer, is an unnecessary delay.
Basically what Dee & Deb do here – actually ministering to people from all walks of life – is just “dancing around the problem” to the Neo-Cals I’ve met.
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Daisy wrote:
Yep. And I have a huge problem with pastors who make a comfortable – some of them very! – living off their followers giving sacrificially just so they can prove they aren’t wasting their lives.
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FYI: You are able to comment on Tim Challies article on his Facebook page. Go take a look! https://www.facebook.com/timchallies
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“There’s a younger pastor and author who has a weekly show on a Christian network who preaches along the same lines.
His name is Kyle Idleman, and the show he hosts is called “Not A Fan.” The show also follows the exploits of a lukewarm Average Joe American Christian whose brush with death makes him change his views on life.
Kyle’s message is that anything less than 24 hour a day, 7 day a week, on fire for Jesus living means you’re slacking off, or not a follower, but a mere fan.
So the fictional Average Joe on the show sells his big suburban home, quits his lucrative job, and he starts working in a soup kitchen. He gets rid of all his business suits.
”
Daisy,
Kyle Idleman is buiding his national brand name with his stint at a mega church after supposedly being a “church planter” which is how he terms himself. His “Not A Fan” is everywhere here. T-shirts, bracelets, etc.
He makes a 6 figure salary and put his home on the market for 700,000 (a lot of house here) and is reportedly looking to buy 80 acres in an upscale rural area here. So, he is not exactly living out the sacrificial life himself but that what is obvious is never really obvious to the pew sitters at SECC who is footing the bill for his national brand launch.
I recently saw him on Ed Setzer video and know he is making quite a national name for himself. I had to laugh out loud when he called himself a church planter as the mega is really planting “McChurch” franchises around the metro area mostly in upscale demographic areas. He was also hailed by Ed as being part of the most successful mega church “sucesssion” plan in history. Oh yes, they have swept a lot under the rug to carry on that fiction. Since the main guru retired and they brought in Kyle, it has basically factionalized. One likes Apollos (Dave) and the other likes (Paul) Kyle. It is anything but harmony but the fiction continues.
I know several folks who have left in the last few years. One man went there for 20 years and in the last few became alarmed at some things money was being thrown at (if he only knew what he did not see!) and tried to see a budget. He spent weeks being given the go round. The church is elder ruled and pew sitters are to give not ask questions. He was not allowed so he left. That is one story out of tons i hear as I go about my days. Some of the people who grew up in that church are leaving as they get older and wiser and realize they have been used to make local celebs. That is not good enough for Kyle. he is going to be a national brand.
He is due another book out about “Idols”.
Can it get any cheesier?
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Here is another example from Kyles church that I know of personally with this “risk your life” theology. This happened with a friend of mine’s employee. This employee had a 6 figure income in a growing industry which is rare these days. He listened to this “not a fan” stuff, chucked his job and decided to be a missionary. Since SECC does not fund missionaries this man has to raise his own funds. He has a wife and kid! Now it is letters all the time to everyone he knows begging for money so he can GO on the mission field. He is not even there yet!
I will never get this thinking. Instead of using his talents, money and time RIGHT WHERE he was, he has to chuck it all and do something “risky”. SECC could care less if his family is taken care of or not but he makes a great sermon illustration. Their idea is that “God will take care of him” if he is serious. All this while the pastors have 6 figure salaries and bodyguards at church. Seems God won’t take care of them so they take care of themselves off other people’s money.
This stuff is going on all over. People can be so silly listening to a sermon or reading a book by some guy who wants to be famous and doing what HE says.
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“Also the impression I always got from these guys is that they don’t like any kind of evangelism except explicit and quick Gospel-sharing – living out your faith in front of your unsaved neighbors and helping people is “just an excuse to not share the Gospel.” You’re supposed to select your Unsaved Evangelism Target and Gospel-bomb them with Jesus’ message not to waste their lives. Getting to know them first, so they trust you and don’t just write you off as an obnoxious proselytizer, is an unnecessary delay.”
Hester, You are bang on! That is not valued. Living sacrificially, helping others where you are is not enough. Everything has to be this frenzied evangelism. Why? To build bigger churches. The more folks who leave church the worse they get because they know this trajectory is not good. Where will the money flow come from?
And they are completely ignoring the sanctification part of living as Christ now, where you are, helping others. That is why I so enjoyed Matt Redmond’s God of the Mundane.
Who is making money these days? It amazes me that celebrity pastors are part of that answer. That is the new normal. See, if they are successful it automatically means God approves.
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Thanks for that info Margaret. Yes, if you go to Challies Facebook page and scroll down to his post about SGM from Feb 28, you can comment on the topic. Several people have already posted and are disagreeing with him. Wonder how long it will take for him to remove the comments. Or maybe even the entire post.
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DG Hart has a very good response to Challies’ post:
http://oldlife.org/2013/03/by-this-logic-god-would-not-have-given-us-the-bible/
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One of the women who commented on Challies Facebook post about SGM left him a link to her blog response. Y’all are going to enjoy this:
http://wineandmarble.com/sit-down-and-shut-up-challies/
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Thanks for the link, M Joy. Great post! It as also great to see Ingrid Schlueter commenting over there. She has long “got it”. she knows exactly what is going on. I was reading her blog, Slice of Laodicea, when I first started seeing the huge problems in Christianity back around 2004-5.
I am sooo glad more and more are getting it now.
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I’ve got screen shots of all 30 comments on Tim Challies’ facebook wall post, just in case he follows his own pattern and gets deletey. 😉
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In this 2011 interview with Julian Freeman, Tim Challies says:
“When you align yourself with a ministry or any other organization you cannot openly criticize that organization or people associated with it (any more than I would openly criticize my fellow elders at Grace Fellowship Church). Typically this is not a problem because you only align yourself with organizations you deem trustworthy.”
“JF: “What are the big no-no’s? Are there people or topics that are off limits?”
TC: “I find this difficult to answer. Theoretically if I were to write a thorough rebuttal of the ministry of a big-name leader within this part of the Christian world I may find it more difficult to sign my next book contract or I may find that I do not get asked to speak at any more conferences. This is quite a tight-knit little corner of the Christian world. But I admire the leaders in this part of the Christian world so can’t imagine too many cases in which I would want or need to write that kind of rebuttal. But let’s be honest here. I’m a 34-year old guy who has never been to seminary and whose formal training extends only to history and computers. I hope I would only ever bring critique when I was utterly convinced that it was warranted and when I had checked with men I love and trust to see if they agreed. I want to model honoring older men as fathers rather than model youthful arrogance. I do think there is room to have some respectful disagreement. For example, I’ve written about John Piper inviting Rick Warren to speak at his conference. I have never gotten any indication that Piper or the people of Desiring God were offended by this or held it against me. Similarly, people have written critiques of me or of things I’ve written and I haven’t held it against them. It comes with the territory of public ministry.”
JF: “So, on at least some level you cannot freely criticize big evangelicals without consequence. Is that a good or a bad thing? Does it reflect or protect the gospel? How does it contribute to celebrity-ism?”
TC: “I don’t know that it’s good or bad. It just is. I guess it depends on where you rate the criticisms (are they issues that are critical to the Christian faith or are they peripheral) and how much you want to enjoy the good graces of the people in this part of the Christian world. Again, the fact is that I can’t imagine there would be a necessity for a lot of that kind of rebuke among the leaders in this movement. If we needed that kind of criticism or rebuke, I hope I would be willing to do it no matter the cost. I hope this both protects and reflects the gospel.”
http://biblicalcounselingcoalition.org/blogs/2011/09/17/the-bcc-weekend-interview-series-tim-challies-and-christian-blogging/
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Caleb, That is probably going to be needed. He is the king of delete.
Hey thanks for that link to the Hart article. I found the comments insightful. I did crack up at this one as well as another one about the PCA:
“I was wondering DH if Trueman should have been involved in this situation last year sitting on the 3 man board that approved Mahaney fit for ministry? I though it was strange since he is ordained in the OPC. but being involved in something outside the OPC and outside the confessional church”
I have long wondered when this would become an issue concerning GC or T4G. How long are some of these denominations going to ignore say, Duncan’s words, about ignoring the wounded. Or Truemans (OPC ordainted) involvement with Mahaney who has NO ecclesiastical oversight?
We know it is not going to effect Mohler’s position as he is the new pope of the SBC but some of these guys are further down the totem pole. Perhaps Duncan is like Sproul who made everyone believe he was PCA when St Andrews was not? That kept him out of trouble when the Ligoneir financial scandal hit. Perhaps Ligon Duncan is also independent? Or perhaps the PCA does not care that he is so dismissive of abused children who speak out as adults?
They might want to rethink that position. It is getting louder out there. Do the right thing. And do it publicly.
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From the same interview~
JF: “Perhaps a ‘case-in-point’ would help clarify. You have been criticized in a few places for having recommended Sovereign Grace Ministries in the past, but refraining from commenting on the current situation with C.J. Mahaney. How would you respond to the challenge that you are being controlled by ‘the code’ or ‘toeing the line’ for the sake of the Old Boys’ Club? Shouldn’t you retract your endorsement of SGM?”
TC: “Good question. I have seen some of that criticism, largely because it has ended up in my inbox. In the past I’ve recommended C.J. Mahaney’s books and spoken positively about Sovereign Grace Ministries. I don’t see that recent developments morally bind me into having to now revoke or amend those statements. The simple fact is that I was very uncomfortable with the way the recent information about Mahaney came into the public sphere. I don’t like the Wikileaks mentality invading the church (though interestingly, I warned that this would happen just a few months ago). I saw the way Sovereign Grace was handling the situation and did not have a whole lot to say about it. I also wanted to be careful not to draw undue attention to leaked documents that most of us had no business reading. I knew in my conscience that if I were to write about it, I’d be doing so to draw attention to my site rather than to say something that would edify.
My decision not to write about this particular situation had nothing to do with a code or with toeing the line. It was a personal decision.”
Did he wrote his latest article to draw attention to his site then?
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Tim says:
“If I ever feel that I need to wage into an issue that may be difficult or may offend, I will generally talk to my fellow elders and ask them if they think it is a good idea. I’ll try to get at least a couple of outside opinions before posting anything. They have sometimes saved me from saying foolish things. But if there is an issue that people are thinking about and wondering about, I am generally glad enough to write something about it and give us all a starting point to discuss and digest it. I think this is where blogs really can be a service to the church.”
A starting point to discuss and digest? Not easy to do with closed comments.
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“I saw the way Sovereign Grace was handling the situation and did not have a whole lot to say about it. I also wanted to be careful not to draw undue attention to leaked documents that most of us had no business reading. I knew in my conscience that if I were to write about it, I’d be doing so to draw attention to my site rather than to say something that would edify.”
Sinning by reading Christian leaders acting sinfully. Better to be ignorant and keep giving them money and promoting them. That is exactly what Jesus taught about the Pharisees.
Tim is unqualified. He is all over the place. He does not want to draw attention to it, yet he does in a way to try and paint anyone speaking out about this as sinners and he is “biblical”. Right. The bible teaches that we should enable leaders to continue in evil.
This is just regurgitated, “the bloggers are sinners” stuff. Funny how Tim got his start as a blogger. But his blogging is godly.
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Good job, Diane. The more Challies talks the more he looks like a self serving hypocrite who is actually trying to protect evil deeds (against children!) and make warning folks about them look like sin. He is spouting the typical YRR line.
The Reformed industrial complex has been good to him. He has a lot to lose.
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“Even in the documents about Mahaney it is quite clear where the bias lies and where information is missing or where motives are assumed. This is simply the way it will always work. We can see this in Detwiler’s documents where at certain points he goes far beyond the facts and begins to pass judgment on Mahaney’s motives and character. He does this despite his regular declarations that he is doing nothing more than presenting the facts and letting them stand on their own. The very purpose of these documents is to influence us to think about C.J. Mahaney in a certain way. Are we willing to allow this man to tell us who C.J. Mahaney, one of our brothers in Christ, really is?”
http://www.challies.com/articles/cj-mahaney-and-difficult-days
Not necessarily…any more than I would allow Challies to inform me that I cannot have an opinion about something…or that I should allow Challies to tell me how his way of viewing the situation is how to think biblically about it. Besides, in the documents Mahaney does a thorough job himself (in his own emails/words) in describing how he really is. Detweiler provided the access. But that is Challies’ problem: he sees the messenger as the problem, not the message.
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Anon 1,
I find that Hart’s blog often has informed discussions about those kinds of issues. And Hart himself is very critical of organizations like TGC precisely because they are parachurch organizations whose authority and usefulness is highly questionable. It is particuarly relevant here because Mahaney’s disciplinary system is set up withing a ‘family’ of churches that he created and grants extreme authority to pastors/elders in isolated local churches with little to no larger oversight. Where can the laity appeal? To whom is Mahaney responsible? We’re seeing that it can’t just be to people in a parachurch organization whose ties to him are financial and political. They won’t come down on him the way a larger denomination would.
And then he gets a panel drawn from a parachurch organization to assess him so that his unchecked reign can continue. Very interesting indeed.
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“I guess it has already been clear that I’ve looked over the documents. I haven’t read every word, but I’ve spent quite a while reading them. At first I resisted, feeling that I had no business doing so and realizing that most of my desire to read them was obviously sinful. But then, as I saw more and more discussion about these documents, I felt it would be wise for me to look through them. The Lord has given me a unique platform at the blog and if there was a serious, systemic issue within the ministry, I might be able to use the blog to inform people. Was this legitimate or mere justification? I don’t know that I can discern the motives of my own heart enough to say with certainty.”
http://www.challies.com/articles/cj-mahaney-and-difficult-days
Oh good grief. Why should anyone read anything he puts out? He cannot discern the motives of his heart? He “discerned” enough of his heart to say that most of his desire to read them was “sinful”… but since everyone else was doing it…he gave in. What was sinful was now wise. If it was serious enough, hey–he would even use his blog to inform people.
Well, I can see from the Julian Freeman interview I posted above at 11:53 that THAT would not necessarily be the case.
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@ Anon 1:
You’re absolutely right that Challies is unqualified. He is more unqualified than most people realize. He’s a guy with a three year BA (not even a four year honors) in history who started a popular blog. I would love to see his academic transcript.
People don’t seem to realize that he’s just a regular guy who ingratiated himself with some influential leaders and wrote a bunch of reviews of lousy Christian books and now he’s some kind of cultural authority. He doesn’t have the experience or education to be commenting as apparently authoritatively as he does on a range of economic, political, historical, and theological issues. The idea that he is some kind of Christian guru on the ethics of technology (see his book) because he had a web design company is a joke. I think his inexperience and ignorance is beginning to show.
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@ Caleb and Anon 1~
Was trying to find out on how he bacame an elder/pasto–found this interview–
“Could you tell us a little bit about how you became a pastor at Grace Fellowship Church?
It was about six years ago that I became a member of Grace Fellowship Church. In those days my blog was starting to grow in readership and I was eager to put myself under the authority of leaders who shared a vision for the site and who could keep a loving but watchful eye on me. Also, ironically, while my blog was gaining a lot of attention in the Young, Restless, Reformed movement, I was attending a church that was non-Reformed (and, in fact, closely modeled in the styles of Bill Hybels and Rick Warren) and whose leaders considered my blog a liability. Through what seemed a coincidence but was clearly God’s providence, I met Paul Martin, the pastor of Grace Fellowship Church, and we immediately hit it off. Two days after meeting him, I took my family to Grace and we have never looked back.
After a few years of being a member at the church, the elders approached me and said that they would like me to be examined by the elders and the congregation for ordination as an elder or pastor (we make no distinction between the terms). In 2010, after that examination process, I was ordained as an elder. Not too long after, in January of 2011, our church sent out a plant led by Julian Freeman, who had been associate pastor. This left a position open that the other elders asked me to fill. And just like that I became associate pastor.
The funny thing is that years ago, all the way back in eighth grade, I underwent vocational testing and I recently came across those results. Right there at the #1 suggested vocation for me was “clergy.” I guess that counsellor knew something I didn’t at the time (especially since, to my knowledge, I was not yet even a Christian then).”
http://dashhouse.com/dashhouse/2012/2/10/friday-questions-an-interview-with-tim-challies.html
(giggle.) Wow…the old 8th grade vocational testing…
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“Not necessarily…any more than I would allow Challies to inform me that I cannot have an opinion about something…or that I should allow Challies to tell me how his way of viewing the situation is how to think biblically about it. Besides, in the documents Mahaney does a thorough job himself (in his own emails/words) in describing how he really is. Detweiler provided the access. But that is Challies’ problem: he sees the messenger as the problem, not the message.”
But Diane, they really do believe that people look to them for what to think. So they simply must tell people what to think. Nevermind someone like Challies, in th end, is doing exactly what Detwiler was doing.
You are right. The docs showed Mahaney, Harris, Detwiler and all of them for what they really are. Someone just made who they really are public knowledge.
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“It is particuarly relevant here because Mahaney’s disciplinary system is set up withing a ‘family’ of churches that he created and grants extreme authority to pastors/elders in isolated local churches with little to no larger oversight”
Caleb, they love to talk about church discipline. But Mahaney in that system would have to “discipline” himself. And besides, guys like Mohler love it too but he has surrounded himself with yes men trustees. There is always a way around for the leaders. But they do so love the power of “disciplining” others.
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“I cannot discern the motives of his heart? He “discerned” enough of his heart to say that most of his desire to read them was “sinful”… but since everyone else was doing it…he gave in. What was sinful was now wise. If it was serious enough, hey–he would even use his blog to inform people. ”
This is the YRR gobblygook. They trot out some variation of the perpetual wicked heart stuff when it is convenient and they don’t want to take responsiblity. Since he does not know himself at all or who He is in Jesus Christ and has NO volition in such things, perhaps it would be wise if people take him at his word and avoid his teaching all together?
If he cannot discern the motives of his heart (is he admitting the Holy Spirit does not dwell in him?) then why did he write a book on discernment? To say he has none?
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@ Diane:
“And just like that, I became an associate pastor.” That about says it all. The contempt for training and education in those circles really gets my goat.
Anon 1 – you’re right. They love their authority.
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“And just like that, I became an associate pastor.” That about says it all. The contempt for training and education in those circles really gets my goat.”
This is what I find so weird about Mohler. That is his job. It is WHY he has his job. But he has helped to bring into the SBC both Driscoll and Mahaney as influencers on young men, and both are theologically uneducated. It only tells me that building the Reformed brand is more important than anything else to him.
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Ok–done trying to find out who Challies is…except found one more interview I want to post for anyone who is interested… with Adrian Warnock, no less. (I do not promote/agree with Warnock and am not promoting his blog). It was humorous at times readng Challies’ replies–especially about interacting with the readers of his blog, commenting. etc. This interview was done everal years ago.
Of particular interest Challies says:
“Of course I also blog because I love to challenge other people and to interact with them. I love people and love to spend time with them, even if only in an non personal setting like the Internet.”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/2006/02/adrian-interviews-tim-challies/
Having had a comment or two removed from his site, and having observed first hand how he deals with some people in the commnents section of his blog, I do not see the love nor the spending time with them. In fact, I do not see him interacting much in the comments section at all. I have seen many questions posed to him with the end result being–silence… there the question stands…all alone…with no asnwer. I understand when he has 100 comments on an article that he cannot/will not reply to each and every question. But it is not the norm for him to have that many comments.
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Goodness–sorry for all the typos. My eyes are a little blurry this am. Forgive me.
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I am wondering, upon thinking about how Challies was made an elder, was the fact that he was a famous blogger a factor in the elders’ decision to make him one? Does it give their church any advantage to have a YRR famous blogger as an elder? And, when the associate pastor left to plant his church, Challies was given the associate pastor gig but no explanation was given as to why he was chosen over the other elders. I am curious about that.
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“I understand when he has 100 comments on an article that he cannot/will not reply to each and every question. But it is not the norm for him to have that many comments.”
I understand that, too, to a certain extent. But the blog is also his “business”. So it is also about interacting with your customers. Nice gig if one can actually have a business like that. :o)
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@ Anon 1
“I cannot discern the motives of his heart? He “discerned” enough of his heart to say that most of his desire to read them was “sinful”… but since everyone else was doing it…he gave in. What was sinful was now wise. If it was serious enough, hey–he would even use his blog to inform people. ”
This is the YRR gobblygook. They trot out some variation of the perpetual wicked heart stuff when it is convenient and they don’t want to take responsiblity. Since he does not know himself at all or who He is in Jesus Christ and has NO volition in such things, perhaps it would be wise if people take him at his word and avoid his teaching all together?
If he cannot discern the motives of his heart (is he admitting the Holy Spirit does not dwell in him?) then why did he write a book on discernment? To say he has none?”
That first sentence should have said, “He cannot discern, not I cannot discern. Sorry for that confusion. Anyway, so Challies cannot discern SGM and reading the documents, but look here- he can discern that his motives are pure for writing on his blog every day. So, since he has discerned this, we can read his blog. !!!! (Just not the SGM documents though…those motives he cannot discern.)
“Tim
That I have committed to blogging every day has raised a few eyebrows and brought some gentle chastisement. But I feel my motives are pure. I know my personality and know that once I allow myself to become lax in an area, I tend to become very lax. And so I try to blog every day. Blogging is so closely connected to my personal spiritual disciplines that I fear I have a lot to lose if I stop blogging!”
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/adrianwarnock/2006/02/adrian-interviews-tim-challies/
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From the Warnock interview–
“Tim
Feedback is not only an opportunity but an expectation with blogging.
Adrian
There is something very biblical about that
Tim
And yes, it can certainly be powerful.”
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“He cannot discern, not I cannot discern. Sorry for that confusion”
I actually read it the way you intended. The bottomline is that Challies does know his heart and has discernment when it is convenient….as evidenced by his own words.
This is why I encourage folks, especially the very young YRR pastors to analyze everything these guys say and teach. At some point, we should see some consistency in application to similar situations. When we don’t, we know there is an agenda. And they apply the black hole of Reformed thinking to it to make it a sin, Gospel or biblical.
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Hi Y’all (i.e.Ladies),
I was just thinking about what a nice, pretty day it was here in Kentucky, and how nice its been for all of us ladies to have more time to ourselves to shop and enjoy all the children. My one daughter especially enjoys posing her kids and taking adorable snapshots, depicting a life of ease, joy and happiness; the fruit of a marriage conformed to God’s order of complementarianism!
That is where the life is ladies, in adhering to our rules for womanhood according to Gods design. So, please visit our blog and read what we have to say. On Fridays we try to be funny!
Some of you may be wondering why, with so much more time on our hands (after escaping those ghastly crowds at CLC) why we don’t allow comments on our blog and interact with our readers? Well, the biblical reason is that we believe its important to focus on our eternal lives, and to experience as much heavenly bliss as we can in the here and now, as a way of demonstrating to y’all that if you follow us, you too can be free from the kind of messes those other people experience – like the feminists and what-nots. So, we’ve determined not to get involved and instead we’re optimistically looking forward to the Spring. We’ll soon be launching a new series on the blog that we’ve been hard at work on. It details our plan, that involves the kids and grandkids, of how to operate successful Kool-Aid Stands throughout the city, and then the state, and then the country, and then the world! We speak from experience, so tune in!
Thank you so much for serving us!
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Carolyn,
Your slip is showing!!!
(wink)
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Anon 1 wrote:
Anon – I have more thoughts on the Missionary Industrial Complex Financing Model than could fill a blog, actually.
Where oh where are the tentmakers???
Caleb W wrote:
I’m sorry to be a big elitist snob, and yes I know Steve Jobs, Richard Branson, and Sergey Brin were all college dropouts, but … this is … interesting. For Tim being such a historian and all.
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Carolyn Mahommey wrote:
Oh Carolyn, hope you are having a lovely, feminine, winsome, quiet and submissive day!
Your Kool-Aid certainly packs a punch, I’m sure!
Toodle-oo!
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@ Carolyn Mahommey:
Gushed: “Thank you so much for serving us!”
You’re sooooo welcome, Carolyn! I bought not one but TWO of your books! And when Godly Wife and Gospelly daughter began *sinfully questioning* it after a chapter or two, I read it myself! You don’t know how much you taught me! Does that mean I’m doing better than I deserve, or violate my masculine leadership and make me the worst sinner I know?
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@ Carolyn Mahommey:
Carolyn, I’m a lady who is thinking about taking Karate lessons at some point, but complementarian John Piper seems to frown on women knowing Karate, or at least actually using it if they know it.
Would you say learning Karate is biblically womanhood-ishly appropriate, or should I stick to baking cookies?
If Karate is biblical for Christian ladies, and if I make it to black belt, should I ask the Sensei to change the belt from black to pink, to make it feminine?
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M Joy
Hah! I have found someone more “in your face” than I! Good for her.
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Caleb
The more, the better! Thanks.
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Wait a second. This man is an elder? I guess I’m lucky that I go to an old-fashioned rural church where the elders are actually, you know, ELDER. This YRR movement really bewilders me. When I became a Christian, I accepted that I needed to humbly submit to God, and I sought out a church for guidance, because I knew I needed it. Thank God I never crossed paths with any of these smug young men in the YRR movement on my journey to faith, which surely would have soured me forever on the whole concept of submission. They insist that all women must submit to all men, all the time, and then they go on to exhibit enough foolishness, poor judgment, and skewed moral compass to make one’s head spin. I find myself thinking, over and over again, “Who decided these whippersnappers were qualified to be senior pastors and elders?”
Whippersnappers! And I’m only 41 years old!
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@ Anon 1:
Thank you for both posts. I did not know all that about Kyle Idleman, about his $700K house, etc.
Idleman seems so sincere on the “Not A Fan” show he hosts, and the other one.
Yes, I had heard he has a new book about idolatry. The Christian network ran a show about it.
There was something about Idleman’s constant pressure on Christians on the ‘Not A Fan’ show to live perfect Christian lives and ‘go to extremes for Christ’ attitude that made me feel a little uncomfortable.
I think Christ came (among other reasons) to free us from feelings of guilt, obligation, and from a performance-based service, but some of these pastors, such as Idleman, want to make Christians feel they have to perform and do good deeds out of some kind of religious obligation, or from feelings of shame or guilt.
I am not against Christians helping nonChristians, or helping people in other nations, or helping homeless people and so forth, but at the same time, I’ve seen this curious habit of some American Christians who are so “outward-focused” that they ignore, or don’t care about, the needs and problems of, or ministering to, hurting Christians who live next door to them, or who attend their churches.
(Then there’s the other extreme, some churches who are so “inward-focused” that they don’t care about ministering to nonChristians in their communities or in helping people in other nations.)
But the first group I mentioned, the “outward focused” compounded some pain I was already in after my mother died a few years ago.
When I went to other Christians (including at a new church I had just joined), they dismissed my suffering by pointing to homeless people in our city, to argue that the pain I had from my mother’s passing really isn’t all that bad as what the homeless people were enduring.
(One of the Christians who told me this volunteers at a homeless shelter about once a month.)
I think it’s great to help homeless people, and yes, they have life very difficult, but I can’t wrap my head around someone who can be so compassionate towards people they doesn’t even know, but then act so dismissive about what I was going through.
It’s so odd. You get these guys like Challies who think he should only care about pain and suffering within his own church/ denomination (ignore abuse of children in other churches)-
But then you have these other Christians who feel fine ignoring the pain and problems of other Christians they rub elbows with weekly, and who believe that they, or their church, should place a premium on ministering to non Christians, especially ones in other (normally third- world) nations.
You said,
I agree. Some Christian love to dispense advice to other people but won’t help those people, or don’t stop to think how their advice may not be all that useful if it’s implemented.
It’s very easy for a John Piper to advise abused wives to “endure abuse for a season” when he’s not personally affected by that advice.
Or these “quit your jobs and live in a shanty in poverty in Africa to share the Gospel to pagans” pastors. It sounds pretty and religious to teach that, but when and if that guy takes that advice, is that pastor going to lift a finger to help him, to pay for any food, rent, or travel expenses he has? Probably not.
There are a few reasons why I have been dancing around leaving the Christian faith, this being one of them, the Christians who direct others how to live life, but who won’t do anything to help.
When I was younger, I used to wonder what Jesus meant by this comment, but I understand better now:
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“they doesn’t even know”
That should have read, “they don’t even know.” 🙂
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@ Daisy:
P.S. Idleman would probably disagree with my description of his views or TV shows as trying to make Christians perform better out of feelings of guilt or obligation.
He’d probably say he thinks people should serve out of love and gratitude, and he may even truly believe that way, but, the impression I got from watching all the episodes of “Not A Fan” and similar shows he’s hosted, is the opposite.
There was what appeared to me a large emphasis on performance-based Christianity on his shows, not serving out of love and a cheerful heart, but you’re a bad, selfish, or lazy Christian, or only a “fan,” if you don’t spend every waking moment feeding homeless people in a soup kitchen, or something.
I went to his website and another one to see he is now selling his “Not A Fan” book to teenagers; the book has been edited for teens.
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Daisy,
Kyle Idleman is trying to build his brand. Radical by Platt was talked about a lot at that church in certain groups. He is simply resurrecting Not A Fan, (which is old) and making it a “system” for Christianity. Much like Platt did with Radical and we are starting to slowly see some of the fall out from that one. People burned out.
Thing is, Kyle Idleman lives quite well with his 6 figure salary so he is pharisetical in how he approaches this topic. He probably thinks, as most of them do, that being a mega church pastor IS living out that sacrifice. You might be shocked at how they see themselves.
The one thing I find humorous is that only a few years ago Southeast made it clear they would never do TV. (TV is a huge game changer when it comes to egos) And here they are doing TV. But if you know anything about that world, TV becomes another revenue source. They will tell you it is evangelistic. But what do you do when your church maxes out and you are simply recycling people? You go on tv.
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Where’s Idleman out of? I’ve never heard of him.
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Daisy, None of what we are discussing has anything to do with Jesus Christ. If we map Jesus to the ridiculous evangelical world in America that uses Him for personal gain and to get followers, we are missing the bigger picture. As I tell people, I will defend Jesus but NEVER will I defend a church or a movement. Too many people using Him. I really do not think He is pleased at all with it.
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Daisy, None of what we are discussing has anything to do with the REAL Jesus Christ. If we map Jesus to the ridiculous evangelical world in America that uses Him for personal gain and to get followers, we are missing the bigger picture. As I tell people, I will defend Jesus but NEVER will I defend a church or a movement. Too many people using Him. I really do not think He is pleased at all with what is taking place in America in His Name. But I am a nobody with an opiniom.
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Hester, Kyle Idleman Jr pastor at Southeast Christian Church in Louisville.
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oops. I posted twice when I did not realize it. Sorry about that!~
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@ Anon 1:
We know lots of wait staff and many of them know that we are Christians. Know why? Because we’re the only Christian family they meet at work who aren’t complete jerks to them. We don’t give them tracts instead of (much-needed) tips. Some of them ask my mom for advice with their little kids, and once or twice we’ve gotten a religion question. We haven’t “shared the Gospel” with them in the exact verbal sense (“do you know Jesus as your personal Savior,” etc.), but they do know that there are at least three Christians who aren’t preachy and annoying and sometimes that goes a really long way.
One of them is an atheist and told us we were “cool Christians.” She was raised pagan, nextdoor to the worst stereotypical homeschooling Christian family you can imagine (they fast-forwarded through the previews on VHS tapes to avoid corruption, etc.). The name she invented for this kind of Christian is “refried Christian” (which I think is hilarious).
I’m honestly thinking of surveying these folks, collecting all their Christian horror stories, and assembling them into a blog post or something. If you ask about Sunday afternoon shift, they all roll their eyes and give you an earful.
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@ Anon 1:
“This employee had a 6 figure income in a growing industry which is rare these days. He listened to this ‘not a fan’ stuff, chucked his job and decided to be a missionary. Since SECC does not fund missionaries this man has to raise his own funds. He has a wife and kid! Now it is letters all the time to everyone he knows begging for money so he can GO on the mission field.”
It disturbs me that so many people ignore the “provide for your family” clause, esp. in these circles that allegedly are about men being providers and protectors. The consequence of failing to provide is to be deemed “worse than an unbeliever”…not good when pastors are actively encouraging men in their congregations to put themselves and their families in that position.
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“It disturbs me that so many people ignore the “provide for your family” clause, esp. in these circles that allegedly are about men being providers and protectors”
Here is the mentality: Because I am risking it all for God you are obligated to help support me and my family.
The 6 figure pastors have examples to show off.
We can tell the truth abvout the SBC but they had the right idea about missions in the first place. They pool money to send missionaries so they are not always begging for money. They can be focused on what they are doing out there.
I have quite a few missionaries in my family. Some are not SBC and they are constantly trolling for dollars. I get their letters every month and since I know them well, I know they are constantly looking for that “big hook” to keep it coming in and you hear all about the depravation. (never mind they have servants to do everything they pay 20 bucks a month which is a fortune to the servants!)
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@ Rafiki:
I agree. I know it can be a slippery elitist slope and I don’t mean to say (as you don’t) that a good education is the only measure of intelligence or competence. It certainly doesn’t ensure morality. And like you pointed out, in some areas (especially business) some very successful people never got much formal education. And there are always exceptions in other fields, too. And we could talk about the issue of over-education.
But a pastor, I think, needs certain guided and rigorous training, just like a historian, philosopher, scientist, etc. And Mr. Challies has not shown himself to be one of the exceptions to that rule.
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Sorry, Dee…the more the better of what??
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Caleb W
My Guy Behind the Curtain keeps after me to comment on the actual post instead of my behind the scenes dashboard. I am beginning to see that he is correct. GUY-“I am not worthy, I am not worthy.”
I was referring to the post you linked by DG Hart and what I meant is I am soooo glad that more voices are getting in on this situation. For a long time it was just SGM Survivors/Refuge and us. TWW has been on this for almost 4 years, sometimes felling like we were spitting in the wind. Finally, others are showing interest.
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Rafiki
I would love to read your thoughts on the Missionary Industrial Complex Financing Model. Dee and Deb, maybe you could make that a blog topic one day. And let’s not forget to include the people I haven’t seen in more than twenty years who suddenly send me a “prayer” letter begging for money for their teenager’s short term mission trip. But of course they let me know their primary need from me is prayer. Right……………..
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Daisy wrote:
It might be ok with Piper if you hit the attacker with the cookie sheet. That would be biblically womanhood-ish enough as long as you have sought out every male possible BEFORE you hit the attacker.
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@ Rafiki:
Sergey Brin is a University of MD alum who did graduate work at Stanford with Larry Page. I don’t know if he completed his degree at Stanford but he’s definitely not a college dropout.
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@Steve D
Bwahahaha! Probably lots of truth to that!
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Daisy wrote:
If I may be allowed to give advice? A pink belt is a good start, but I think instead of learning normal karate, you need instead to learn handbag-slapping. As a good feminine female you can hit someone with your handbag – hitting them with shopping bags is the advanced class – because this maintains your womanliness by using a womanly implement.
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Pam wrote:
I really hate to be pedantic, but according to Piper she would have to defer to the male(s) first she would have to get permission before she hit the attacker with ANY implement. Naturally, the male would have to use the shopping or hand bag first.
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I know of purses that could kill someone with one blow.
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@ Steve D:
Thankyou, Steve, for your correction. My easily led astray female brain did erroneously try and usurp male authority there.
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Thought some of you might be interested in reading Brent Detwiler’s latest blog post.
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2013/3/3/sgm-board-covers-up-request-for-resignation-of-cj-mahaney-an.html
On Facebook he explained: “They were going to announce C.J.’s resignation on Friday but give favorable, partial and bogus reasons. Just like they did with John (Loftness). After receiving my letter on Wednesday, the Board held off on announcing C.J.’s resignation knowing I would expose their duplicitous explanations.”
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Marge, I simply do not understand all of this. How can the “sgm board” ask Mahaney to resign? BRent writes:
“Even more importantly, you need to be transparent about the reasons for removing C.J. from the Leadership Team and as President of SGM – that is, the widespread loss of trust and erosion of confidence in him. ”
Ok, I am totally confused. Is what moved to Louisville, SGM or not? Is it simply a new church plant? Did CJ take SGM assets with him to Louisville? This gets more confusing by the minute.
Is there an “SGM” for CLC and all the churches that left? Not sure how this works.
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@ dee: It *really* helps to do that when the comment threads get super-long.
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He’s talking about the SGM Board asking CJ to resign as President of SGM. CJ is also Sr. Pastor of the church in Louisville, but that has nothing to do with this.
Yes, Sovereign Grace Ministries (the organization) moved to Louisville. Simultaneously, they planted a new SGM church in Louisville, with CJ at the helm.
CLC and the other churches that left SGM are entirely independent now.
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@ Marge Sweigart:
Obviously I was replying to Anon 1’s questions.
Also, SGM has a Board of Directors and a Leadership team. Two separate entities in the organization. See here for specifics: http://sovereigngraceministries.org/about-us/leadership.aspx
That’s why Brent talks about the Board asking CJ to resign as President. CJ is not on the Board.
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Tbanks Marge, SGM is so cult of personality driven around CJ, I am wondering how all this will play out in the larger T4G world.
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@ Steve & Pam:
So which man gave Jael permission to hammer a tent peg through Sisera’s head? ; )
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Hester wrote:
Does this mean Jael was sinning!?!
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@ Marge Sweigart:
Marge, there’s actually a lot of confusion/fishy business going on regarding whether SGM really moved to KY and whether CLC is truly independent of SGM, legally speaking. SGM is listed as a non-profit based in MD and a foreign corporation in Kentucky according to the depts. of taxation and assessment in both states. So technically SGM has not relocated to Louisville. It’s just created a branch office there.
The SGM audited financial statements say that neither party can break off the arrangement without giving 24 months of notice and repaying the party that didn’t initiate the separation for the portion of the building SGM bought from CLC. There’s no evidence that those conditions were met or even mentioned when the CLC pastors made their “let’s try to escape being sued by leaving SGM” pitch to CLC members.
Also, the pastors of CLC appear to have staged a fake vote to separate from SGM that may have legal repercussions regarding their non-profit tax exempt status. I’m researching that issue now. The CLC bylaws clearly state that members have no decision-making powers regarding the corporation. Only the pastors have decision making powers so members lacked the capacity to vote on separating from SGM.
If CLC and SGM aren’t going to follow their bylaws and be transparent about their financial dealings, they shouldn’t be tax exempt as far as I’m concerned.
I admire Brent’s courage a lot but getting rid of CJ won’t solve SGM’s problems anymore. At some point Brent has to let of his obsession with CJ, in my view, because the guy isn’t very influential anymore.
It’s Josh Harris who should be in the hot seat at this point because he’s in charge of CLC, the part of SGM that’s still functioning.
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Carolyn Mahommey wrote:
Ah, yes. As they say, ignorance is bliss Carolyn!
You should think of becoming part of the Tim Challies’ “I Have Deliberately Avoided Learning Too Much Society,” and add it to your blog for your readers to join, right there next to your “5am Club.” He’ll probably give the club a glowing review and a 5-Star rating!
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@ M. Joy:
“And let’s not forget to include the people I haven’t seen in more than twenty years who suddenly send me a “prayer” letter begging for money for their teenager’s short term mission trip. But of course they let me know their primary need from me is prayer. Right……………”
***************************
Giving money to someone so they can have a personally enriching experience abroad.
There is every reason for them to pay their own way.
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@ Anon 1:
I wish preachers would stop trying to do this, come up with some kind of trend, a next thing in Christianity, and they also make the trendy thing, whatever it is, available as t-shirts, posters, etc.
All the marketing and gimmicks are so cheesy.
@ Hester.
I’m not an expert on all things Idleman, but his television shows come on Christian networks such as “TBN” a lot.
Idleman hosts a show called “Not A Fan” (and a few other programs) on TBN.
Idleman makes an appearance about half way through this video:
“Not A Fan” promotional video
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@ Pam:
(And Steve D) thank you for the advice.
About the hand bag suggestion. Assuming there are no males present, and I must swing the hand bag myself, and to be even more womanish-ly appropriate, I would have to yell “Cad!” while swinging the handbag at the bad guy, no?
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@ Marshall:
Very interesting, Marshall.
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@ Marshall:
My bad Marshall, you are correct. Mr. Brin did not finish his PhD program – which means that he is most definitely NOT a “college dropout.” Again, my mistake.
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Anon 1 wrote:
Oh yes – Aunt Esther on “Sanford and Son” wielded her purse against Fred with alarming skill and accuracy. 🙂
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What a perfect lesson for this Lenten season – Tim Challies as Pontius Pilate, washing his hands of any responsibility for concern for the abused.
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"Marge, there’s actually a lot of confusion/fishy business going on regarding whether SGM really moved to KY and whether CLC is truly independent of SGM, legally speaking"
Marshall, Thanks for your entire comment. That was what I was looking to understand.
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JeffT
He will also go down as someone who tried to obfuscate his “relationship” with SGM. He should be ashamed of himself. HIs gospel truthiness is shot.@ JeffT:
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dee wrote:
Looking forward to your post with more info on this – shine the light of truth and watch the rats scurry!
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Carolyn
I see the "daughters" are pushing the Johnny Adventure series.
Is Vision Forum the backup plan when CJ finally leaves SGM? I think you would all get along very, very well.@ Evie:
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@ Marge Sweigart:
Yes, it is. The deeper I dig the more interesting things get. I’m hoping the IRS and state of MD feel the same way regarding some concerns I have about the validity of the non-profits in question as it pertains to decisions people like Mahaney and Harris have made over the years.
Also, I mis-stated the apparent agreement between SGM and CLC. It’s inherently confusing and I’m not an accountant so I could be a little off on the exact arrangements of the deal.According to SGM’s latest financial statement if they pull the plug it looks like CLC only has to pay back 45% of the property’s original purchase price. If CLC bails it has to pay back what SGM originally paid plus some. Since the original price was more than a million dollars and CLC is reputedly already $2,000,000 in the hole, it seems that clause should have mentioned prior to the fake vote.
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@ Rafiki:
No worries. I’m a UMCP grad and we always get upset that Stanford gets credit for Sergey Brin even though his computer science background is from Maryland. His parents were also Maryland professors so he comes from a pretty academic background even if he never got that Ph. D.
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Pam wrote:
No, that was during the Old Testament. Some scholars call that period B.P. (Before Piper).
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Daisy wrote:
To tell him to leave yell out “Twenty three skidoo” first, then you can call him a “Cad”. You must tell him to leave first, then you may call him by the womanish-ly insult.
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@ Marshall:
As far as mascots go, terrapins are way cooler than Stanford’s little green tree any day. 🙂
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dee wrote:
I am guessing that the Johnny Adventure series is for boys only?
Because only boys can go on adventures, or it’s only biblical for boys to do so. Or, it’s assumed by most of the complementarians that all girls are adventure-averse and would rather want to sit quietly in pink filly dresses as they play with dolls.
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Steve Dawson wrote:
I don’t know, according to Piper and most SBC, I think I would have to graciously ask the guy to leave first?
And, per Piper, I think I’d have to ask in such a way that the male burglar does not feel as though I am usurping his male headship authority, or disrespecting his manliness.
As in (while batting my eye lashes at him coquettishly), “Please, Mr. Burglar, would you be so kind as to leave now? Please leave my television here, too.”
But you’re the male here, so I will defer to your judgment.
I wonder if a female calling the police in such a situation would be acceptable to complementarians?
What if I called 911, and the police who showed up are female police officers? I guess female police can’t use deadly force or bark orders at a robber either?
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Daisy wrote:
Of course.
Here’s an example of the way Piper defines things. He makes it clear women are to play the submissive, supportive role never relate to men by giving personal directives.
It’s the woman’s fault if she “comes on too strong” or exercises authority over a man by commanding him because in doing so she is “violating” her biblical role. And when she does that, he has good reason to get angry since it’s only natural that he would. He can certainly command and direct her, but HEAVEN FORBID
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Daisy wrote:
Of course.
Here’s an example of the way Piper defines things. He makes it clear women are to play the submissive, supportive role and never relate to men by giving them ‘personal directives.’
Also, it’s the woman’s fault if she “comes on too strong” in relating to a man because that’s a “violation” of her femininity, says John Piper (speaking for God).
I suppose if a woman warded off an attacker and saved her life and the life of her male companion, she should be rebuked for not purposefully suppressing the use of her skill so that the man she is with can exercise his “natural and good penchant” to be the leader.
Kinda makes me wonder what “tending to the garden” of Piper’s marriage looked like. I’m guessing it involved spending a lot of time in the Role’s Book.
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Double post alert. My apologies. :-S
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Evie – you really did need to give that alert. Thank you. I can only take so much of Piper.
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Evie wrote:
To quote Piper himself, having to read this drivel is a strain on MY humanity.
I am the sole female in my office (I’m the director) with 7 men as direct reports. Believe me, when I give managerial direction on work projects, I pray to goodness that I ain’t signaling boo about anyone’s “responsibility” to strongly protect and lead me.
I mean … ICK. Talk about a formula for a massive sexual harrassment lawsuit.
Our team are too bloody busy giving each other professional feedback, creating a respectful work environment, and getting stuff done well, under budget, and on deadline to concern ourselves with our gender’s “unique duties” as they exist only in Piper/CBMW la la land.
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Rafiki, Like you I have always had male direct reports who were professionals. Piper has not worked in the real world. He has NO clue. I often wonder what these pastors who are so isolated from the real world have to teach us about living as believers in the real world? Nothing. It becomes so obvious all the time.
Gender is not even a consideration when everyone is a professional unless someone decides to make it an issue. I spent years traveling with male colleagues. A big no no in the comp world. That is just the way it is. People can decide to be professional or not. (oops, I forgot, God is controlling us)
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Daisy wrote:
If I were a female and trying to follow Piper’s rules. I would tell the burglar “Screw it, take everything. John Piper says that since you are a male, I should submit to you.”
After all, you wouldn’t want to bruise his male ego. 🙂
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I’ve been joking around quite a bit with Piper’s nonsense. Mainly, I can’t believe that such drivel passed from his lips.
I was thinking today about Piper’s pronouncement about the male taking the lead in defending a woman even if she is more capable. I spoke with a younger female teacher. She told me that she was involved in a Roller Derby league. She’s taller than I am and rather broad shouldered. I was contemplating the idea that if we were attacked, she could probably pulverize the attacker without breaking a sweat. I would definitely defer to her.
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Evie wrote:
So much wrong with the whole Piper quote, but let’s just mention a few things. One absolutely abhorrent bit is the direct blaming of women for ‘angering’ their husbands – so ladies, if your husband beats you, according to Piper, it’s probably your fault. Second, the bit about sports umpires and how they can’t possibly be female. Well down here we’ve had a couple of female AFL (aussie rules football) umpires for a while now – they’ve been on the national circuit since 2004, and the lower grades have had female umpires for even longer. Last year there was even a female goal umpire for the grand final – that’s the top umpiring position on the biggest sporting event in Australia. And aussie rules is a much rougher and tougher and more ‘masculine’ game than baseball (I am biased, but really, have a look on YouTube at some videos, it’s not a sport for the fainthearted). So I’m note sure where Piper gets his ideas of masculine and feminine and how men and women relate to each other from, but it sure ain’t the real world.
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@ Evie:
“Some influence is very directive, some is non-directive. For example, a drill sergeant would epitomize directive influence. It would be hard to see how a woman could be a drill sergeant over men without violating their sense of masculinity and her sense of femininity.”
When you combine this with his comments about muscular women, what begins to emerge is a picture very like Miss Trunchbull (talk about “directive influence”)..and I certainly hope THAT isn’t what he thinks all non-demure women are like.
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Julie Anne wrote:
Omgosh Julie Anne I know. That was a killer wasn’t it? I’m not sure what happened! Shazam!
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My apologies everyone for posting so much Piper. Especially before dinner.
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Evie, Don’t apologize. Piper simply must be analyzed. Maybe some of us “women” can strip away the flowery verbosity and bizarre redefining and get to the real message. If there is one.
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Rafiki wrote:
This is the big problem with Piper’s insistence that patriarchy is God’s eternal plan and straying from it will always lead to immediate disaster. What about all the women in the modern workplace who are able to fill leadership roles competently and responsibly without being either shrill emasculating harpies or “winsome” milquetoasts? What a false dichotomy!
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This stuff just boggles me. How about, instead of harping on gender roles, we all just practice Philippians 2 and Ephesians 5:1 (Submit to one another out of reverence to Christ). Isn’t that the point? Wouldn’t it all just fall into place after that? Would the church really implode if we shifted focus to preaching humility and servanthood, instead of being manly men and girly girls?
I can see discussing gender differences as being a practical help, much like the concept of understand personality types or love languages as a mechanism for serving/submitting to them better. But gender roles?? REALLY??!!! WHHHHYYYYYYY…
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@ Kristin:
The answer I keep coming to is that those who preach the importance of gender roles are not really secure in what Christ has completed. They need extra propping up to be able to function as men in Christ. This is often what they preach. They teach that men “need” women to respond and act in certain ways so that men can be what God has called them to be. They are new creatures in Christ BUT they also need women to be a certain way. If women don’t come through (as the gender men proclaim) well then men just can’t seem to be men. Pretty darn lame if you ask me.
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Bridget wrote:
Don’t mind me. I just needed to see that quote in print again. Excellent, Bridget!!
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@ Bridget:
“It was the woman you put here with me!” *eyeroll*
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Kristin wrote:
Hey, that worked the first time! Oh, wait…
These guys like to bring up the Garden of Eden, but only when it’s “all about Eve.”
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Move over Sgt Schultz, this is classic Gnosticism, AKA “Spiritual Good, Physical BAAAAAAAAD!”
Because rape of children is Physical and Secular, not Spiritual(TM) and Eternal.
And Challies is too Spiritual(TM) to be concerned about it.
“It’s All Gonna Burn…”
(And I’m not going to even start on Predestination….)