You can't make footprints in the sands of time by sitting on your butt. And who wants to leave butt-prints in the sands of time? -Bob Moawad
Otomi women in front of the Santa Maria Church in Mexico
by Alejandro Linares Garcia
One of our readers (I am sorry I forgot who) sent me a link to the most unique post that I have read in awhile. It was written by Pastor Jonathan Martin of Renovatus Church link in Charlotte, NC on July 24,2012, called Gender, Race and Pentecost: The World Has Moved On.
His bio clues in his readers that they are not going to get the usual party line.
Jonathan Martin leads the liars, dreamers, and misfits of Renovatus: A Church for People Under Renovation, in Charlotte, NC, where he lives with his wife Amanda. He is the author of the forthcoming Prototype from Tyndale House (2013). He’s a product of the “Christ-haunted landscape” of the American South, sweaty revivals, and hip-hop. He holds degrees from Gardner-Webb University, The Pentecostal Theological Seminary, and Duke University Divinity School. His main claim to fame was getting his Aquaman, Robin and Wonder Woman action figures saved, sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost at an early age. He hates the sound of his voice except for the times when he loves it. When he is talking it’s mostly about the beauty of God, what an extraordinary thing it is for you to be called God’s beloved, and finding new ways to be human. He is unafraid to be seen walking his small dog Cybil and evidently of speaking of himself in the third person.
Some of our readers will thoroughly agree with him, some may disagree but all will be challenged. He discusses Doug Wilson, the young Reformers and the changing face of the Christian faith which he says is represented more accurately by African and Hispanic women. I anticipate that this will be quite a shock to a few Calvinistas out there.
I received permission to reprint his entire post which I did. I have added a few spaces within paragraphs to make it easier to read in our format. All words which appear bold are due to my editing and not the author's emphasis.
I am very grateful for being allowed to present this thoughtful essay and extend my heartfelt thanks to Pastor Martin. (Have you ever considered opening a satellite in Raleigh?)
By a technicality, I am a fairly large man. But one of God’s most gracious gifts to those of us in ministry is that as He gives us more opportunities we might perceive as “bigger,” He gives us perspective into how small we are. He allows me to see both that my life has unthinkable weight because He loves me, and yet how inconceivably irrelevant I am under the canvas of space and time. I am young enough that within my tradition, people occasionally tell me they see me as voice for “the future.” And while the sentiment is appreciated, I feel fairly certain I am not particularly futuristic.
The future has already arrived, and it has little to do with people like me. In the global body of Christ, we have seen a remarkable shift in the balance of power. Those of us in the west in general and North America in particular are used to being in the seat of power and influence; we are used to being those who shape global conversation in the Church.
Our sense of self-importance is innate. Drunk on the rhetoric of America as a new Israel, our Christian faith a curious syncretism of sentimental piety and manifest destiny, we send missionaries into the world. We ship our virtues and vices wholesale into all the earth.
I am a Pentecostal by heritage and tradition, but culturally I am one of the bourgeois pastors whose day might seem to be coming, but in many ways has already passed. The whole white male, coffee-drinking, apple product-using, Coldplay-listening type. It is a very small world that we live in that feels deceitfully large. We have blogs, we write books, we talk about the most recent issue of Christianity Today. So it is easy to think we are the center of the universe.
We did not notice that the world has already moved on. We didn’t notice that the wind of the Spirit left us, and that there is a new world coming in Latin America and Africa and Asia that rendered us inconsequential. We enjoyed our time in the mainstream well enough to forget that the move of God always comes from the margins.
I am part of a tradition that began on the margins, in a rundown shack of a church in Los Angeles and among disreputable hillbillies in Appalachia. We did not have the burden of privilege then, and that afforded us the truer luxury of needing God and believing He could do anything. I write these words from Orlando, Florida for the Church of God General Assembly, and we are a case study for how the world had changed. Our movement is exponentially bigger outside the United States than within it. While we feel the sand sinking beneath us in North America, we have only a faint glimpse of the dynamic movement happening under our own banner in other parts of the world.
Nonetheless, in Orlando we are comprised mostly white men from the Southeast—men just like myself—whose day has already past, our power already sifted through our fingers. And yet we still talk and conduct ourselves as if we are the center of the universe. We still talk as if the world has not moved on. We will talk as if God has not moved on.
This is not a distinctively Pentecostal phenomenon. I watched with some interest last week the online conflict that developed over gender issues in the Church. A blog from a pastor in the Reformed Gospel Coalition camp caused a stir in an attempt to critique the phenomenon of the novel 50 Shades of Grey, which is said to fetishize rape fantasy in the main artery of American fiction (I haven’t read it). The author of the post quoted from a book from Reformed “scholar” Douglas Wilson using strong language about gender roles. I alternately disliked the post and yet found it rather uninteresting. The use of the quote in context of the matter seemed to suggest that such fiction appeals to many women in our culture because gender relationships in the home are no longer properly defined. The idea, as I understood it, was that if men took their proper place of authority in the home, the little women wouldn’t want any of that stuff.
I both understood the backlash against the piece, and yet found the backlash surprising only insofar that there is perhaps no one in the North American Church more blissfully unaware of their own place in the grand scheme of things than some of my Reformed friends. I love my brothers there deeply, and find much to admire in many of them. There are some humble, powerful men among them I deeply appreciate. The fact that the author of the post, Jared Wilson, posted a lovely and nuanced apology a few days later demonstrates the many good gifts in their movement!
And yet that doesn’t quite get to the strangeness of the whole little affair. Most of the debate centered on the semantics of the language in the piece (which again I would personally find problematic). Yet I’m scratching my head that Wilson would still be considered a credible source in mainstream Reformed circles (especially the young guns) given some of the flagrantly bizarre positions taken in places like this (it’s full of gems: “Slavery as it existed in the South wasn’t an adversarial relationship with pervasive racial animosity…Many of the old slaves express a wistful desire to be back at the plantation.”) Suffice it to say that takes a special kind of audacity. But he has snappy one-line zingers (“egalitarian pleasure parties!” Har-har!), and a lot of those fellas just love that. (In some parts of the world it seems, you can get by with saying just about anything as long as you get atonement theology “right,” since this is the entirety of “THE gospel” and everything else is peripheral).
Still it is really not my intention to carpet bomb Wilson. Headed to Orlando, I am struck by how Wilson, the young Reformers, we Southeastern boys of the Church of God and this long-haired pastor with the pretentious named church have in common. The good news ecumenically speaking is that as different as we are, we are all brothers! The good news is, we are all on the same ship! But before we start singing “We are one in the Spirit, we are one in the Lord,” here’s the harsher reality—we are brothers on the same ship called “The Titanic.” To hear us volley at each other, you would think we are fighting for the souls of the nation between us. But in reality we are not. Among those of us in the younger set of our camps, we are competing largely for the hearts and minds of the 20 and 30 somethings with their Ipads and Macchiattos. We are already dinosaurs and we did not know it.
The average Christian in the world right now is an African or Latin American female in her early 20’s. She doesn’t read our blogs and she doesn’t read Christianity Today. She doesn’t know or care who I am and she never will. The names Piper, Driscoll, Chan, Bell, Stanley, Warren—mean nothing to her. Like most Pentecostal women coming into the kingdom around the world, words like “complementarian” and “egalitarian” are not in her vocabulary, nor Calvinism and Arminianism. Unlike some of my brothers would lead you believe (where their lunch table is the only one that cares about Scripture and THE GOSPEL while anybody who believes differently from them in these tired conversations are flaming liberals), she takes the authority of the Bible very seriously. But more importantly, she believes in the power of the Bible in ways that are incomprehensible even for our most rabid “conservatives.”
The western filter and language that frames these issues will not be determinative for her, unlucky as she is not to read our blogs. She may well in end up leading a church one day where she preaches Jesus like a woman on fire and lays hands on the sick and watches God heal them, though this will surprise those Reformed colleagues who are sure all female church leaders have been trained by godless-Unitarian-lesbian-leftist-radical feminist-seminarians (she didn’t have access to seminary at all–unfortunately she has read the Acts of the Apostles). Who knew?
The world has moved on, God has moved on, and we didn’t even notice.
I do not wish to be overly contentious with my colleagues. Tribally we are different, but culturally we are so very much alike. This is intended to be more conciliatory. Why don’t you pull up a chair beside me here on the deck, bring something to drink, and let’s at least watch from over the bow, shall we? I would hate to feel this irrelevant all by myself. It’s a beautiful sight, really. It is not so tragic for the world to lose sight of us. We must decrease so He might increase. So it’s a celebration then. Bring your Macbook pro if you like; we can even listen to some Coldplay.
While you contemplate Pastor Martin's prophetic words, watch this interview of one of the granddaughter of Fred Phelps. Recently, two other Phelps granddaughters link have left Westboro Baptist Church and have repudiated their past protests. Good for them!
Lydia's Corner: Deuteronomy 23:1-25:19 Luke 10:13-37 Psalm 75:1-10 Proverbs 12:12-14
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Sounds like a guy who does not take himself too seriously.
We need more like that among Christian Spokesmen(TM).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNryNfvcQlY
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I have read this post at least a dozen times since he put it on his blog, and it never fails to inspire me. Talk about perspective!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’ve read it before too. I’ve even linked it on my blog cause it’s that good.
I’m glad it’s making the rounds again. I wish the Piper’s, Driscoll’s, and Wilson’s of this world would get a grip and get some perspective. Their self-importance has become quite tedious.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Oh I really liked this! He is very gently pointing out some hard truths, isn’t he? I was interesting in the fact his church is called Renovatus, as I like the stuff Renovare puts out…doesn’t seem to be a link, except that of maybe listening to & learning from the whole church.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Wow. Just … wow. Thank you for posting this.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
All I have to say is “Amen!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee,
I found this pastor’s perspective inspiring! Thanks for posting it.
Five hours down, three to go…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
dj
Was it you who sent me the link?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I agree with aspects of this post, but I have to say that it strikes me as pretty odd. I’m having a hard time articulating what I think, but racial/gender/class stereotypes seem to drive the logic of his argument (both for Western males and non-Western females) and lead Pastor Martin to overstate his case in a number of ways. Since when has there ever been a coherent ‘global conversation’ with a unified center of power? The world is a big place and big names in one place are of course unheard of in other places and vice versa.
It seems more like a shot at the egos of Calvinistas – which is fine. But I don’t think it is all that coherent as a description of change.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I enjoyed this, too, very much.
I wonder what the services at 9am & 11am at Renovatus Church are like, with the leaders’ awareness of being on the sinking ship itself.
Curious. (me, that is)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The smile that started spreading out on my face at about the 5th or 6th paragraph has grown into a huge, cheek-stretching GRIN. I loved this! If God has moved on, I just want to be sure I am moving with Him! 😀
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Hey everybody,
Totally off topic, but check this out!
It’s a group called “I Will Stand” that is for abuse victims who have also been abused by churches. Jeff Crippen wrote about them. They have a Facebook page linked at the bottom of Jeff’s article. (I didn’t want to put both links in in case 2 links would send me to spam.)
I Will Stand is about standing with people who have been or are being abused. It’s about taking a stand against abuse, in all of its’ forms and it’s about standing in the gap, to support women who have been rejected by the larger church community, after leaving their abusive situations. It’s about standing with them, to change these churches and show them that they are wrong in rejecting the victim for choosing to leave their marriage, while supporting their abuser with open arms. We want to show these women that God loves them too much to make them suffer in an abusive marriage that will not change.
We are an organization who wants to educate teens and young adults about the warning signs of abuse, so that they can stand against falling prey to this evil in their future relationships and we seek also to educate those who are being abused and don’t even realize it yet.
We are passionate about seeking total change in the hearts and minds of those who would otherwise have turned their backs and ignored the problem, so that they can instead, reach out to and support those who are suffering with the effects of this evil. We are asking the questions, “Will you stand with us? Will you stand against abuse and for the many people who live in it or have lived in it every day? Will you stand and tell your leaders, your churches, your communities, that this problem will never go away, if we all just pretend it doesn’t exist? Will you stand for your neighbor, your daughter, your sister, who can’t stand for themselves? Will you stand and call abuse for the evil that it really is? Will you stand and say with us, ENOUGH IS ENOUGH??”
https://cryingoutforjustice.wordpress.com/2013/02/07/i-will-stand-a-new-facebook-ministry-to-raise-abuse-awareness/#comment-12592
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee – I sent you the link. 🙂 Just haven’t been commenting much lately.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The thing is… these changes (and others like them) are actually taking place in the US, not just on other continents.
I’m kinda surprised that the author isn’t aware of that, but then… it might well be that the area in which he lives is more culturally “same-y” that many other parts of the US.
However… he could hop a plane to Miami, NYC, Philly (etc. etc.) and see these cultural changes in action, right now – and in churches in those areas.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The other thing that strikes me is that many predominantly African American denoms have had women in ministerial roles for what seems like aeons…
Again, I like his piece – as far as it goes – but he could see it in action *very* cloes to home, I’m thinking…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee and Deb,
I know you spend a lot of time on this blog and it must be overwhelming. What about a post where you list ways we commenters (and lurkers) can help share the load? After all, “many hands make light work.” I’m sure there must be some ways to crowd-source some of the work.
If you can’t think of any ways we can help, you could at least start a new post so we can brainstorm in the comments there, instead of in this thread.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This is a favorite blog post. I think about it whenever I see the GC types taking taking themselves too seriously.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I have been hearing about the growth of Christianity in third world and economically emerging countries for a few years now. Some of it from missionary friends, those who travel a lot and even NT Wright has been talking about this for a while. It is NOT going to look like what we are used to. The women are not aware that the Holy Spirit does not enable them to preach/teach to anyone anywhere. :o) I have some friends who snuck in and out of China for about 5 years and they told me women are the backbone of the underground church movement, many of them have done time in prison for witnessing.
I just see the trajectory being that little move of the spirit is going to come from the institutions that call themselves the church here. I am not putting them down as they serve a purpose here. Sadly, the purpose is often to stay alive, grow or maintain the system. But too often they exist to elevate man and have followers.
His post is a perfect example of 1 Corin 1:
“But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.”
May God richly bless them and keep them safe!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I liked this when I read it, back when RHE posted it last summer, and I like it now. Reading through the comments too, I am struck by the contrast between the “big brand” N. American churches and the sweaty revivals of the developing world, the contrast of western churches barring women leaving abusive husbands, and the developing world churches inviting them in. And when I read Acts, and the letters and Revelations (seven letter section), I am struck by how different the early church was, how quickly it traded it’s love for God for a love for other things, and how far N. American churches have slid from the glory of the poor, yet powerful early church.
So, what to keep and what to ditch? My view is, until the whole body of the church – the battered wife, the abused child and the outcasts ( usually gays, divorced, single mom’s) are given an equal voice in the church – not just a polite nod, or a “glad to have you here to flush out our varied demographic targets” but a voice – that is listened to – we will become irrelevant and ineffective witnesses.
The church has always been a body. If I was, oh, say a long distance runner. I would focus on my core strength, leg muscles, lungs, etc. What if I ignored that pain in my lower left back. A good run will fix it. It hurts more, I pop a few pills to shut it up. It hurts again, I go to my doctor. He tells me it is a stone and I need to have an operation. The Doc. also tells me to go very easy on the power-drinks (let’s say I am convinced it is the magic to a great run). I justify the overuse – the weather is too hot/cold/misty/polluted, I will drink a lot of water to balance it out, I really don’t over do it that much – that guy at the race last Sat. now he was an over user – 6 bottles a day! I’m fine.
A while later my kidney (now I know what organ it is) hurts again. It screams again, I go to my Doc. The Doc. is not impressed. I told you to go easy on that drink-stuff – now you have to lay off completely. Getting an OR spot is tight right now, you will have to wait a while. It hurts, I ask the doc. to write urgent, he says “no”, there are bigger problems for patients ahead of you, besides, you could live with only one kidney, they can’t live with one lung, you had a chance to improve yourself, now you can wait (in Canada you can’t shop around, all docs would have the same view). It takes too long – O.R. Doc. strike occurs, still no “urgent” on the file. I am on 20 painkillers/day. Liver isn’t happy either. One night I end up in emergency. They say “It is too late for you, we have to remove your kidney”. I lose a kidney, I slowly recover, bitter at the doc. for not writing ‘urgent’ and not willing to view my stupidity as contributing. I try to run again. I can’t go as far, or as fast, I can’t drink power-drinks, too hard on my one kidney. I am not what I used to be. I am no longer a long-distance runner, championing the race. Why? I ignored an easily forgotten part of my body, but still a vital part. I lost that part, and can no longer be who I used to be. Other people (denominations, movements, etc.) keep on running. They pay attention to the unwanted parts, the lesser parts, their whole body – and their whole body rewards them. They run far and fast, amaze spectators and sports casters alike. They past my (our denomination’s, or movement’s) personal bests (even thought they were behind) and just keep going.
This is my analogy to denominational movements. You can’t run the good race if you ignore parts of your body – God gave you the body you have, and the race you are to run. You need your whole body on board. Pushing through the pain can have tragic results. But the full outcome isn’t immediate. The immediate success can blind a successful runner, to their full body needs.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Juniper
I am having a good laugh at myself. It seems as if everyone knew about this Pastor Martin’s post except me!! This is a great example of the body working together to get a good message out. i am so grateful for you and others who keep my up to date!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This post was really great. For me, it’s one of those things I have often thought, but wonder if any of these guys get it? Good post. Begins slow clap.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Caleb W: I wouldn’t read too much into it from that persepctive. The basic premise is that things that a White North American might consider “very important” if not *essential* to a life of faith may in fact be a moot point to a believer in another part of the world. Which begs the question, if it isn’t universally a big deal, then why make a big deal about it in the first place? The flip is also true, there is a lot going on around the world that the Calvinista Establishment likes to sweep under the rug. For example, the grim reality of the way women are currently treated around the world. Can you imagine telling a girl rescued from the sex trade that to please God she must submit herself to the authority of a man? Or force her to reconcile with an abuser?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Hoppy the Toad!
You awesome frog, you!
It is funny. About three weeks ago, I had my Bible study group pray that we could figure out a way for people to help us since things have grown a bit out of control. Within a day, a reader who I happen to know has some talent in research, said she felt like she should write and see if she could help us. So, I had her do some research for a woman who contacted us by email about a situation in a church in her town. It was complicated. An email like that takes us about 2 -3 hours to research and formulate an answer, sometimes longer.
So, said reader did the research, nailed the issue and sent me back an outline of the problems that she saw. I used her research and answered the reader far more quickly (By months probably) than I could have working on our own. Kudos to her (she wishes to remain anonymous).
Just this past week, I finished up responding to a backlog of emails going back 6 months. You have no idea how many! Each email is important to us and we want to help everyone who contacts us. If they take the time to reach out to us, we want to take the time to show love and concern back.I have felt guilty for months over this backlog.
So, all thoughts are deeply appreciated. Here are the constraints. We guarantee confidentiality. So, if someone write us, what is a way to get some help without violating that promise?
The Guy behind the Curtain keeps warning us that we cannot keep doing things the way we have been doing them. But I told him that I don’t want to stop doing things this way because it changes everything. We want people to know that we are so grateful that they would spend their precious time reading this blog and supporting one another. This is a labor of love and every morning I get up, dying to see what is being discussed. I go to sleep each night praying for everyone. I figure God knows to whom I am referring when I say God bless Hoppy the Toad.
So, since you brought it up, my guess is that God wants us to think about it. Suggest away!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Wow, just wow…somebody finally got it.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Kristin:
Wow, talk about perspective. That is a wonderful perspective to look at it, Kristin. I have never really thought about that. I am just… yeah, wow. It kinda makes their premises null and void, doesn’t it?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
I think there’s wisdom in what The Guy Behind the Curtain is saying.
You two can’t do it all yourselves – it’s too great a task.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mara: “I wish the Piper’s, Driscoll’s, and Wilson’s of this world would get a grip and get some perspective.”
That would be just too hard for them. They have come to rely upon the steady pay, the perks, the security, and the adulation of their followers. To come back down to earth and be real presents a frightening prospect – akin to King George becoming a slave in the colonies. It makes for a nice wish, but one that will likely never come true.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Mara wrote:
Reminds me of the story of Driscoll arriving in Haiti with an army of bodyguards. Nice. What happened to missionaries packing their stuff in coffins so that they had a way to send their bodies back home.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Kristin: I wish we could “like” comments… yours is terrific.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee,
I wish there would be more blog places for people to go to log all the church abuse and overt or covert take-over by controlling groups in churches – which often leads to long-time members getting thrown out over non-issues. You have mentioned places for abuse survivors to go check out, are they still operating? I agree with Numo, you can’t help everyone by yourselves. The church is only getting worse in the top-down authority, which leads to abuse issues. If your backlog is 6 months now, what will it be in 5 years? Perhaps some general posts on how churches become abusive, what does an abusive church look like, sort of thing that you could then link to for people?
Jonathan Martin wrote this months ago, yet it is still as relevant today as back then? A good post on what is happening to North American churches – slow calvinista take-overs, followed by signing of new statements of faiths (our church has added the “bonus” of a card that says we will now be “responsive” to the leadership of the church – with the most vague wording imaginable), and why signing these things is wrong or ill-advised. What signs to look for in this new wave of Calvinista church take-over (our church used to let attenders do everything – Sunday School, small-group, what-have-you, now, only approved small groups are permitted, you have to sign a large statement of faith, plus write a testimony, plus sign something else, just to teach Sunday School), what it is like in a church like this (the average congregant is clueless at how much is changing and won’t understand what is going on)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Ack… sorry, hit post by accident, anyways, a few great posts on what is happening out there, what happens when churches become authoritarian – numerous victims, maligning people’s character, controlling what is said by church members, “church discipline”, all of this is not well understood by the average Christian just looking for a home-church. For example, after months of reading you lovely ladies, I was pretty aware of the “players” my pastor kept mentioning on a Sunday morning (even when he quoted C.S. Lewis, he used Piper’s quote of C. S. Lewis, not just any C.S. quote). Next, we ran an in-house training course for future church workers. The year-long course used only Wayne Grudem’s Systemic theology book and a few other TGC-group materials (red flag #2), then, after purchasing a new Sunday School curriculum a few years before, this year the Gospel Project was bought and used in the kid’s Sunday School (we looked it up – all Calvinista-type material, with a heavy emphasis on gender roles – even for my little grade two-er). I went to the elder I knew best, and he wasn’t convinced this was all planned, but was concerned that the non-calvinist side wasn’t being fairly represented.
The average church attender there is: not a calvinist, not complementation, not … well, you get it. So, what does the church do? Only hire very young staff – from our new campus pastor to the kid’s pastor, they are extremely young, impressionable and look up to the pastor (almost idolatrously). A few are only now waking up to what is happening there. One or two great posts on what is happening everywhere – Driscoll’s trainings, etc. would really do well for people to grasp some background, then it may help them figure some of their own churches issues out for themselves and cut down on some of your work? Just a thought. Of course it wouldn’t always work, but it may be quite helpful for many e-mailers, and the rest of us who would love a few posts on the trends in churches going authoritarian-calvinista, to show the congregants who really aren’t aware yet.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
also, re. some of what inspired Martin’s post, my guess is that he’s been reading books by Philip Jenkins, whose most recent book is titled the Next Christendom: The Coming of Global Christianity. He’s a good writer, though i do wonder about that title – I mean, didn’t xitanity come from the Middle East and spread to North Africa (including Ethiopia) very early on?
There’s a *very* longstanding xtian presence in much of the world… and it’s one that not many of us Westerners know about.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Kristin:
Disclaimer – I am not a complementarian and I do not agree with the Calvinistas on many things. My problem has more to do with principle, the way Martin makes his point, and some of the unintended implications of it.
If the main point is that a group should not make a big deal about something because the majority does not make a big deal about it, then the point is entirely relative and could be applied to anything. For example, if most people don’t care about sex trafficking…if it is not universally a big deal…then why make a big deal about it? Of course we do not accept that argument. And a complementarian Calvinsta shouldn’t either. So Martin should make a better argument than – ‘well, there are a lot of non-Western women who don’t care about complementarianism or North American theology, so you should stop pushing it.” There are far better arguments to be made. Demography doesn’t make right.
I also think that Martin doesn’t quite grasp the effort that Gospel Coalition types are putting into spreading their influence globally, so he offers a false sense of security for more egalitarian folks. The post strikes me as a ‘ha, you’re losing the battle of numbers so shut up’ kind of triumphalism that I don’t think it is warranted.
I also have a problem with him stereotyping white North American males as privileged/out of touch/…sad relics from another age. Why not focus on the content of their character and ideas rather than a cheap stereotype about their race and consumer identities. What are you going to say to a middle class white male in university who aspires to be a writer: sorry kid, you’re a white male – the rising tide in the third world just won’t listen to you. Come over here with the ageing Gen X pastors as we watch our ship sink. I don’t see how that is constructive or realistic. It also precludes the possibility that people from different racial/class backgrounds of different genders could have something to say to each other…both ways. I actually think his argument would be better served by talking about class more than he does, but alas.
He also stereotypes ‘third world women’. I teach a lot of young women who come from all over the world (my university is in Toronto – a very diverse city) and setting up a figure of ‘the third world woman’ as victim or ignorant or hyperspiritual, etc. also strikes me as wrongheaded. He also paints non-western as entirely ignorant of western Christianity; I’m not sure how accurate that is. The Purpose Driven Life, as silly and American as that book was, was not just a white North American phenomenon. The world is complex, as you know. Ideas, cultures, and practices go back and forth. I see in Martin’s argument a kind of extremely problematic ‘noble savage’ trope saturated in self congratulation. Maybe he’s just being polemical and maybe these are the limits of a blog post…who knows.
Again, I agree with the idea of taking a shot at Calvinista self-importance. But I really think that the way he does it is fraught with problems.
I have more to say, but don’t have time right now. Will check for your response and add some more…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Caleb W:
I completely understand what you mean. I’m speaking more specifically of when Calvinista’s tout something as “equal to the gospel” or “if you don’t believe this or act in this way I question your faith.”
Obviously the church will look different depending on the culture it is found within. As a worship leader I deal with this regularly. There is a lot of pressure for me to get the music “right” as if God is going to be unhappy if I choose one song or style over the other. It is good to be passionate about what is relevant to the church locally, but on some level we have to be aware that we are not marrying things the gospel that are really just accessories. I have personal preferences and opinions about worship music, about bible translations, about how to educate our children, how to relate to my husband, etc, but at the end of the day I don’t equate these things with “gospel”…considering there are people around the world who do not have freedom to worship at all, do not have bibles at all, have no access to education, and have abusive husbands.
Hope that helps. Cheers.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Caleb W: Agreed on the stereotyping of “third World women.”
It’s (unfortunately for us!) a very American way of viewing people from other countries, especially developing countries. (I hate the phrase “third world.”)
I used to be an ESL tutor – most of my students were Arab Muslim women and girls. all of them were highly educated; most had (at least) the equivalent of a US undergrad degree. Some had gone on from there… in the sciences, mainly. (Scientists are very much in-demand in developing countries, and a *lot* of them are women…)
At any rate, I wonder why Martin writes as if there aren’t any educated “third world women” at his doorstep, when – more than likely – there are more than a few.
It would be cool if he spent time talking with some of them and then did a follow-up post…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ numo: Edit: actually, the book that I linked to 1st came out quite a few years back; this is a newly revised and expanded edition. (Which might explain the very US-centered title? Not certain…)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Kristin:
It does. And I do agree – there are some pretty spurious things that get tied to the gospel! Thanks for the response!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ numo:
Good point! Maybe he’s just being polemical?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Val wrote:
Calvinjugend. On fire for Fuehrerprinzip.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Val wrote:
When Stalin was muscling into Eastern Europe after WW2, these were called “Salami Tactics”. Work slowly, one little concession at a time, just one more slice after just one more slice of salami like a slow-boiling frog until one day everyone wakes up to find the Russian Bear has eaten it all. “URRA STALINO!”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Kristin wrote:
Why would a Real Manly Man like Driscoll need bodyguards?
Anyone attacks him in Haiti, He Can Beat Them Up.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
HUG
Many of these guys pretend they are manly until they need to be.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I still can’t wrap my head around pastors needing bodyguards. It just doesn’t compute. . .
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Bridget
Actually, Driscoll has threatened to punch our pastor,etc. In my opinion, the church should provide bodyguards to the members.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Wendy Alsup calls out against the silence surrounding the SGM lawsuits.link
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I dunno. If I understand correctly, he wants fewer navel-gazing doctrinal disputes among Calvinistas (particularly gender and race) and more attention to the developing world’s spiritual realities. All well and good, but…according to the 2011 Yearbook of American and Canadian Churches:
– His denomination (Church of God) is the 22nd-largest in the USA and all self-identified Pentecostals together make up around 6 million (?) members, far fewer than Baptists, Methodists, even Mormons. He’s taking himself a mite too seriously in general when he writes “We are used to being those who shape global conversation in the church.” The generic white male? Certainly. The specific Church of God denomination? Not as much.
– “We have only a faint glimpse of the dynamic movement happening under our own banner in other parts of the world.” If he presumes to speak for Western Christianity here, I would submit Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Mormons, etc. have been aware of this discussion for quite some time. If he’s talking about YRR Calvinistas, he does have a point. But again, he’s not demonstrating general Western Christendom’s myopia, but that of the Calvinistas, his 22nd-largest denomination and by (unintended?) extension the maybe 10 million Presbyterian and Reformed-sympathetic in the USA. So he gets a point for that.
– “She may well in end up leading a church one day where she preaches Jesus like a woman on fire and lays hands on the sick and watches God heal them…” Can he name any denomination in the West that he agrees with theologically that permits that now, and to whom he’d send his flock for healing? Actually, can he name any churches he’d financially or theologically support in the developing world doing that now?
– Finally, just because he says the categories of “complementarian and egalitarian” aren’t terms he feels a typical developing-world Christian female would think in, I can’t spot any passage in his text that implies his default is egalitarian. Simply not beating your wife, avoiding genital mutilation or not selling your daughter into prostitution is not enough for an egalitarian theology.
Sorry for the length, but his thought-provoking piece is very interesting for what it does not say as much as for what it does.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Pastor Martin certainly produced some food for thought with his remarks, didn’t he?
This chimes in with a book I have here, “Operation World” (a sort of prayer diary with a day or two set aside for each country, throughout the year). You only have to read the different notes for many countries in Asia, Latin America, Africa or even Eastern Europe to realise that while our Christian brethren there believe the same thing, their world is so different in some ways (and yet alike in others!).
And while some jeremiahs are ready to shout “persecution” in the West, some of the Third World churches have grown against genuine, physical persecution, not just people in the media being unpleasant about them.
I also wonder even in the West (and I include the UK) whether the church, and in particular the evangelical church, is even reaching within its own national borders, or whether we have become restricted to being a largely middle-class organisation trying to draw in the educated professionals. That’s not a liberal guilt trip – no doubt I’m as guilty of it as the next person. Please tell me if I’m wide of the mark! (I hope I am!)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee,
Mr. Hoppy and I discussed TWW’s workload tonight. It sounds like answering email about personal problems takes up the biggest chunk of time. Is that correct? You need to either reduce the number of people emailing you for help or outsource answering some of the emails. What if you had a forum so the “members” could help each other out? I bet many people would post to the forum rather than email.
In the the forum, you could have a “researchers needed” thread. If you need research done on a particular topic, you could post and ask people to volunteer. There could also be a “regional group” section where people from the same state or area could find each other.
I remember when your blog used to say that posts came out on XYZ days. You could go back to 3-4 posts per week or you could have guest posts. There are plenty of blogs with many followers that don’t post every day or even week. These blogs focus on quality over quantity, so they retain readership, even if they only post once per week.
If I think of any other ideas, I’ll post them.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Topic: Sharing the Load with the TWW Blog Queens. Yes, Hoppy, I like your idea of a forum and other blog post ideas. Here are my thoughts:
What a unique and awesome problem to have, the need for others to share the load! A 6 months buildup of emails has got to be overwhelming on the best of days! The fact that you guys and others are recognizing this need is providential = God is very interested in this fact.
One solution, the Jethro principle, is to delegate. Find folks who have the various skill sets required and draw on their expertise to help victims and those who have questions. All contacts would continue to be confidential.
If people know that there is a team of caring and skilled folks who share the same passion as Dee and Deb, then they know that they will get the best care and advice that they can.
It is kinda like a pastor being overwhelmed by many hospital and home visits that they need to make in a week in their growing community. He or she is wondering how they will find the time to do that and do the other ministry tasks as well.
Seeing the need to include other brothers and sisters from their spiritual community in this task is the solution.
At first, those who are hospitalized may not be happy that ‘the’ pastor did not visit them personally, but as people get a visit from people who truly care and have some form of gifting/training in this ministry task, then they may find that Sally and Rupert are wonderful people who have come to visit, comfort and to pray with them. They may even become good friends after their convalescence is over–since they, not the pastor, got to know them through this vulnerable time.
All that to say, is that you ladies are already a ‘Team’. People know that when they email you. Since Christ’s Body is a body, it makes sense to include and expand with a few others who are gifted and ready for this type of ministry. This group can be a collaborative team ready to serve and help those in immediate distress—those who send email ‘flares’ for immediate help.
OK, those are my thoughts. Anyone else want to chime in on this discussion?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I was thinking about TWW as I was doing dishes and Jethro popped into my head. I just logged on to post this quote and saw that Barb had already referenced it.
Exodus 18:13-26
The next day Moses took his seat to serve as judge for the people, and they stood around him from morning till evening. When his father-in-law saw all that Moses was doing for the people, he said, “What is this you are doing for the people? Why do you alone sit as judge, while all these people stand around you from morning till evening?”
Moses answered him, “Because the people come to me to seek God’s will. Whenever they have a dispute, it is brought to me, and I decide between the parties and inform them of God’s decrees and instructions.”
Moses’ father-in-law replied, “What you are doing is not good. You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out. The work is too heavy for you; you cannot handle it alone. Listen now to me and I will give you some advice, and may God be with you. You must be the people’s representative before God and bring their disputes to him. Teach them his decrees and instructions, and show them the way they are to live and how they are to behave. But select capable men from all the people—men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain—and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. Have them serve as judges for the people at all times, but have them bring every difficult case to you; the simple cases they can decide themselves. That will make your load lighter, because they will share it with you. If you do this and God so commands, you will be able to stand the strain, and all these people will go home satisfied.”
Moses listened to his father-in-law and did everything he said. He chose capable men from all Israel and made them leaders of the people, officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens. They served as judges for the people at all times. The difficult cases they brought to Moses, but the simple ones they decided themselves.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Our “blog pastors/elders” need to get some “blog deacons.” They need to delegate some jobs to us so they can focus on whatever they can do that we can’t.
Acts 6:1-4
In those days when the number of disciples was increasing, the Hellenistic Jews among them complained against the Hebraic Jews because their widows were being overlooked in the daily distribution of food. So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, “It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables. Brothers and sisters, choose seven men from among you who are known to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will turn this responsibility over to them and will give our attention to prayer and the ministry of the word.”
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
You preach it, Hoppy!! I stand with ya!!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Most bloggers post when they can – not to a set schedule, unless they’re working for a newspaper or other new media outlet.
My guess is that the number of posts drives up the amount of email being sent…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Dee and Deb – willing to help however I can, you have been a big “heads up” and help for me, I wasn’t just clueless about SGM, I was clueless about how Piper, Keller, and C.J. (who I didn’t realize was part of SGM – I was cluuuuuless) all worked so closely with one another. And I never realized Piper had the same views on women as Driscoll did – only said in more happy-upbeat (flourishing) kind of way.
But, it has been how my scientist husband has been treated by the church that really started me looking into things, and opened my eyes to a lot. That, and freaking out about what I was seeing about Driscoll on random You-Tube clips, and my church’s growing love for all things Driscoll. Then realizing the connections between all these pastor’s and their obsession with gender hierarchy. I mean, who on earth feels the time to come up with lists of 88 jobs a woman could do in a church and rank it is a valuable service for God? It screams legalism in every direction, yet there is Piper co-authouring the book.
So, not an expert by any means on all that is going on out there, but if you had asked me 3 years ago if the subversive implementation of Calvinista doctrine into an unsuspecting church was happening at our church – I would have thought, we aren’t that far down the path. But now… yikes! Our church is barely recognizable from it’s former self. It looks more and more like a Mini-Mars-Hill, just tweaked one or two agenda items at a time.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Caleb W:
I see your point of view Caleb. I also see Martin’s point of view. Pentacostalism did not grow from the well-educated middle class roots – like so many other western denominations – rather, it grew from a revival in a mixed-race egalitarian leaning poor shack of a church over 100 years ago. It was largely laughed at in it’s early days be other denominations. Later, it conformed a lot more to the typical evangelical mould – no dancing (except at worship), women barred from leadership positions that would conflict with being “over” her husband, and so on (think 1940s and 50s evangelicalism). But it’s roots are the poor and downcast. Like Christ, it came to the poor and was received by the poor first. Rich people did join and eventually it eventually became very middle-class. But Martin is harking back to it’s roots -and noting it is, as is recorded, the largest protestant denomination world-wide (Petacostalism). Not one particular brand of it, but Pentecostalism is the largest protestant denomination in the world today. Southern Baptist is the largest in the US only – although it generates a lot of materials and resources for many denominations. I don’t think we have a S. Baptist church in our area, and I don’t think I’ve lived anywhere where there is one. It is a uniquely American thing that it is so popular. But pentecostalism’s developing-country explosive growth is NOT among the well-to-do in those countries. It is among the poor of those countries. If anything, it is the denomination that says “you can do it!” to the poor, while others keep sending Aide and Expertise, Pentecostalism sends the Spirit, sometimes the Holy Spirit (sometimes materialism). But the idea that the poor woman can now lead a church is revolutionary for them, maybe not for us. That is fraught with dangers. I do think pastor’s should be trained (or discipled) first, but it is that view of equality that is so radical to the oppressed or any nation. Will it last? Who knows? but I do know a) Christ is with the poor (Jackie Pullinger comment) and b) the early church was full of problems (Corinth anyone?) yet it survived.
And it is this view, in light of the Gospel Coalition’s insistence that you need to think about the Bible a certain way, look only to leaders for salvation (Piper doesn’t believe in conversion by the Supernatural alone), get the Gospel the way TGC or T4G do in order to do any good and, as Piper says, having women in leadership will ultimately fail – to which Martin points out the Pentecostal economically depressed developing nation citizen is not concerned with this view and is helping to grow the largest Protestant denomination with leadership skills and authority.
In Nepal, a very poor country, few women could afford things like computers, few women could read on them anyways (it is the girls who get pulled from school when family finances are tight, or the mother is ill). They certainly couldn’t read English. Yet to them, the power of God’s love fell on them, from really dumb westerners at revival meetings. They were the ones who were coming to the house churches (on the sly as mother-in-laws wouldn’t approve). But they loved God and spread his love in ways westerners don’t. They were much more controlled by their extended families than I believe African women are, so they couldn’t go lead churches, unless their MIL’s were there too, but then the MIL would insist on being the leader, so it wouldn’t really happen freely anyways. Were there very educated women in Nepal? A few. Where there educated Nepali women abroad? Yes. Do they reflect the composition of the nation’s women? Not really. Not to say they don’t exist – but when you think of a Scotsman, you don’t immediately think of an African refugee, but I know a scotsman, born and raised, whose family fled Idi Amin’s regime before when he was in utero. When I think of an African women, I know many are well educated, but they are not broadly representative of the masses of under-educated, under-paid and over-worked african women who are joining the Pentecostal churches.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
OK, last post, then have a great night everyone.
Dee, just so you don’t miss out another great article on why Piper is wrong about women in combat, leadership, pants, etc.
http://www.jennyraearmstrong.com/2013/02/06/john-piper-women-in-combat-and-how-gender-roles-fall-short-of-the-glory-of-humankind/
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
WOW! This guy speaks sense! SO encouraging!
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The average Christian in the world right now is an African or Latin American female in her early 20’s. She doesn’t read our blogs and she doesn’t read Christianity Today. She doesn’t know or care who I am and she never will. The names Piper, Driscoll, Chan, Bell, Stanley, Warren—mean nothing to her. Like most Pentecostal women coming into the kingdom around the world,
Not quite. I have been in bookstores in Nairobi that had stacks of copies of books by bell, chan and warren, along with books by local snake-oil salesman and women (and snaker-HANDLERS. They actually have a fad of female pentecostal preachers who incorporate actual snake-handling into their routine, as in ‘look, the snake didn’t bite me, I’m blessed, suscribe to my newsletter’). So kind of embarrassing to read a blanket statement about 100’s of millions of people. Hint: if you ever find yourself in nairobi, referring to some one as a ‘third worlder’ is a good way to get yourself punched out.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
will f wrote:
Just to add a clarifying point: for the most part, SHE IS ILLITERATE AND DOESN’T READ, PERIOD.
In the big East African urban centres with big Christian populations like Nairobi and Kampala,heck even in Kigali and Dar Es Salaam, you get a lot of Warren, Osteen, Jakes, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, et.al. along with local offerings.
Pentecostals are the overwhelming majority, followed by the RCC and Anglicans – not too many RBDs have made an inroads at all. I don’t consider Warren to be an RBD despite his strategic connections to some of them.
On my commute home tonight I’ll remember to take notes and share with you all some of the headlines on the massive banners all over advertising revivals, a new one is scheduled every week.
Most of the featured evangelists are Africans who preach on a regional circuit, actually – a I’d say it’s a 50/50 split between male and female leaders.
My favorite advertisement splashed all over handbills, banners, and a billboard or two right now is for a revival (led by a lady) that in huge type informs you that “OVERTAKING IS ALLOWED!!!!” 🙂
Final point – we are currently in the year 2013 and it’s best to refer to “developing nations” – has nothing to do with individuals.
1953 is on the phone and has asked us to retire and return the term “Third World” back to its proper time and context, mmmkay? 🙂
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I should also add that the terms “developing nations” and “developed nations” have plenty of detractors, too. These terms are really not great, frankly, but they’re acceptable and widely used.
Frankly I see more and more use of “North” and “South” as in “the global South” or something like that.
It may simply be too ambiguous (though I applaud its neutrality and sensitivity), focusing only on geographic location, and doesn’t allow for any distinctions (economic, social, cultural, religious, or governance) between sovereign nations.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ dee:
Interesting that we are having some of these same conversations (how to keep up) behind the scenes on ACFJ. The email volume can be tremendous, and each person who contacts us is very special. If you have any great ideas, be sure to pass them along! It seems there is a great need for aiding victims of abuse in many different forms, and the workers are few 🙁
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“will f wrote:
The average Christian in the world right now is an African or Latin American female in her early 20’s. She doesn’t read our blogs and she doesn’t read Christianity Today.”
I did not write that. Mr Martin did, I was quoting him.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ numo:
And to India, which has had a Christian presence since the first century, which they attribute to Philip being there as a missionary.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
“all contacts would continue to be confidential.” “If people knew that there is a team of caring and skilled folks who share the same passion as Dee and Deb, then they know that they will get the best care and advice they can”
If they are able to find such people. People like this are hard to come by.They are far few and between.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Arce:
Was it not Thomas who supposedly went to India? Or both of them?
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Arce: Thomas, iirc – some of the xtians in S. India are known as “Thomas xtians.”
There also was Jewish community in S. India, though their numbers have waned…
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ Arce:
Not Phillip, Thomas – that is in South India, and for a long time the South and North were split (not one nation), the huge majority of the population is in the North, and does not have a 2,000 year history of Christianity – it is mostly associated with colonialism.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
This Easter, a group of refugees from Sudan will join our congregation. It will be the largest growth our mission plant has seen, and will certainly tip the scales of future discussion (our church is congregational). We celebrate this event and the diversity – it reminds us of God’s kingdom in Revelation, where every tribe and tongue and nation celebrate the Lamb. But it is an interesting study in global Christianity. Scores of African refugees are turning to LCMS (my denom) or similar churches in North America because they hold both traditional orthopraxy and orthodoxy dear. It is humbling to realize that the Ethiopian Orthodox church, for example, has been around longer than my own tradition – or almost anyone else’s.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I know this is off-topic, but I read this article in CT and thought readers here would be interested: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2013/january-february/my-train-wreck-conversion.html?paging=off
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Good post!
I’ve watched an SBC pastor dither and fret and finally leave a local ministerial association when the Methodists called a woman preacher. All the while he was in a sweat, Navajo were leading Navajo to Christ and not too concerned with the crazy white boy’s worry.
Here, while some dither and fret over creationism and women in ministry and who can be ordained and how much education is enough and what music we are going to do, others stay out of organized churches and are quietly and effectively leading people to life changing relationships with Christ.
One of my favorite authors is Hannah Whitall Smith. Amazing how freeing it is to love life in Christ as opposed to life in the church.
And amazing how much a mission field the organized church is in terms of real Christianity.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ linda:
“Here, while some dither and fret over creationism and women in ministry and who can be ordained and how much education is enough and what music we are going to do, others stay out of organized churches and are quietly and effectively leading people to life changing relationships with Christ.”
*************
and with $0 overhead.
which keeps the mission on the pure side.
“money….money changes everything.”–Cyndi Lauper
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Caleb W wrote:
I hear you Caleb, and I sympathize. But first, a caveat/disclaimer of my own:
I’m Native American, an FDR style socialist, a gun owner, Pelagian heretic, and all round’ misfit who has no qualms whatsoever about pissing off either side of the aisle.
Martin’s diatribe gets old. It’s the same old refrain of collective white male guilt over all that’s gone wrong in the world, and quite frankly it gets tiresome. For the record, I’m glad the American experiment was founded by old dead white men of the humanist Enlightenment and not tribal shamans of any race or gender.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Muff Potter wrote:
Muff, that description reminds me of a local filksong I heard back in the Eighties:
“I’m aaaaaa —
Carl Sagan,
Ronald Reagan,
San Diegan Pagan!”
(and that’s all I remember of it)
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
elastigirl wrote:
As centuries before, others dithered and sweated (and got violent to each other) over Predestination and Inspiration and Inerrancy and all the other theological fights of history.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I don’t think Martin was indulging in the “liberal white guilt” thing. Rather I think he was pointing out that sometimes we miss the greater picture of what is going on in the wider world. For example, Anglicanism (if you live in the UK) seems too often defined by impending crises over homosexuality and women bishops. In Africa and elsewhere there are different concerns, but also the church by God’s grace is making progress (which isn’t to say that they don’t have their own problems, of course).
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
I’m not exactly third world, but I am third culture (African parents). I do see what he’s saying, but he forgets that gender roles still exist in these developing countries. In many African Pentecostal churches, women are allowed to preach, but there is still this interesting phenomenon of many women followers going to conferences and meetings to see the “man of God.” Also, TBN-esque Pentecostalism is imported into the continent at light speed, and the prosperity gospel is so commonplace, it makes me sick.
Here is a wonderful example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXPPAH9gzHk
I will also add that there’s a Black Reformed “movement” of sorts in the U.S., which muddles things a bit. I have many folks on my fb feed espousing traditional gender roles, speaking against women preachers, and urging submission among black women. I could write a tome on how Reformed theology tends to be a respite for folks in the African diaspora exposed to the prosperity gospel and shallow theology, but that can wait.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
androidninja
Welcome to TWW. Thank you for your thoughtful input.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
Thanks, dee! 😀 I’m a long-time lurker, and have posted a few times. I love y’all at TWW.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
@ elastigirl:
Zero financial overhead indeed. I came across this interesting quote from a Christian writer:
It’s interesting how the writer contrasts controversialist, career Christians with people of sound doctrine and godly teaching. As you all know, career Christians today typically assert that it is precisely they who own the rights to Godly Teaching™ and the Sound™ instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Godliness as a means of financial gain – or fame and self-promoting influence. A parallel claim, often seen nowadays, is that spreading the gospel needs huge financial resources.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
androidninja wrote:
Please do, please do ! I would be very interested to see if there are any parallels here in Australia/the Pacific.
Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127
The post and all the comments put together:
Nothing new really. There are a lot of people and movements preaching everything else (prosperity, culture, power, gender-roles, doctrinal purity etc.) but Christ. Pentecostal, catholic or reformed, no movement is without wolves.