"For those of you attending, I desire for you to make the most of your time and escape the pitfall of becoming a conference Christian."
Mark Driscoll
Mariners Church – Irvine, California
Just what we need – another conference for the young and the restless. The first ever National Resurgence Conference (R12) is wrapping up at Mariners Church in Irvine, but it definitely won't be the last. It looks like this will be an annual event, and you can go ahead and sign up to learn about next year's conference.
What is R12? It is a cooperative effort between an interesting conglomeration of Christian leaders, including:
Mark Driscoll
Rick Warren
Greg Laurie
James MacDonald
Miles McPherson
Craig Groeschel
Justin Holcomb
Nick Vujicic
LeCrae
To get a glimpse of the conference's focus, here is the promo video:
When James MacDonald resigned as a Council Member of The Gospel Coalition (TGC) last February, we assumed it was strictly for theological reasons. You may recall that MacDonald invited T.D. Jakes to participate in Elephant Room 2, and Gospel Coalition leaders rightly expressed concern over Jakes' adherence to modalism.
It has come to our attention that there are some startling revelations involving James MacDonald and Harvest Bible Chapel, where MacDonald serves as pastor. Now we wonder whether there was more to his resignation from The Gospel Coalition, which we will discuss in our upcoming post.
Mark Driscoll, another TGC Council Member, resigned shortly after MacDonald. A few months later, he abruptly stepped down as president of Acts 29. In the midst of all this controversy, Driscoll and MacDonald are teaming up with other high-profile Christian leaders. What is their long-term objective? Another church planting network? It is interesting that the Resurgence – a ministry of Mars Hill Church – has never had a conference like this before. Are they breaking away from Acts 29?
What would serve as the guiding principles of such an alliance? Perhaps the Resurgence website helps shed some light (see below).
Get Trained.
Millions of Christians around the world have come to the Resurgence for training. Our motto is “Get trained,” so our whole mission is to help you on the mission God has given you.
Look around. The Spirit is up to something. There is a resurgence of biblically faithful, passionate believers on board with the mission of spreading Jesus' name. This is a movement anchored by a theological foundation of four points.
1. Gospel-Centered Theology
2. Spirit-Filled Lives
3. Complementarian Relationships
4. Missional Churches
Here is a recap of Day One of the R12 Conference.
What happens next?
Tomorrow Mark Driscoll and other Mars Hill leaders are holding a Mars Hill Connect Day when they will be meeting with senior ministry leaders and their staff who are interested in taking their church to the next level. (see below)
Mars Hill Connect Day
On October 11, in conjunction with the 2012 Resurgence Conference, you're invited to a special, limited-opening Mars Hill Connect training day for senior ministry leaders and their staff. If you're looking to take your church to the next level, this will be an invaluable day of teaching and discussion.
Pastor Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill senior leaders will spend the day teaching on how to build a unified message from the pulpit through your small groups, counseling, kids and youth ministries, understand church growth and size, and manage growth and multiple sites.
Is Mark Driscoll, who is teaching in his current series that Esther was a whore, the kind of leader who will bring honor and glory to Almighty God? What kind of impact is he having on a younger generation of leaders? Finally, what will be his legacy?
Lydia's Corner: Exodus 32:1-33:23 Matthew 26:69-27:14 Psalm 33:1-11 Proverbs 8:33-36
Sounds an awful lot like an MLM pitch, to me. It's taking what should be a Good, Meaningful Thing and turning it into just another business opportunity.
The Elephants Debt?
Yeah, wow.
Looking forward to what you have to say.
Is that four point list meant to be in order of importance? So marriages are more important than churches?
As in, the ‘right’ sort of marriage, of course.
Can we now say “the idolatry of complementarianism”?
Seriously, this looks more and more like the true elephant in the room is this idolising of male leadership. Phallocentrism?
Alright, it's late, I'm grumpy, and the Sam Adams is flat….
1) What the hell is gospel-centered theology? Seriously. Someone please explain how full-time ministers come up with crap like this.
2) I'm not a complementarian, but if I were, I would have exactly ONE complementarian relationship – not relationships in the plural. It may sound like I'm nitpicking, but the details in the language they're using are significant. Think about it for a minute.
3) Driscoll is consumed by church growth. Totally consumed by it.
4) A unified message from the pulpit to small groups? That's frightening in its implications. Key word is "message," not hope, not the gospel (wasn't that supposed to be the center?), not the exposition of Scripture.
5) Enough with the missional church nonsense. That's BS code for "how to make money and build power by expanding into a white, upper class suburb."
“a unified message from the pulpit to small groups?”
Yes.
How?
No brainer.
Let ’em watch video clips from your sermon last Sunday.
Keep everyone on “mission” with your “Vision”
I’m shocked, stunned, feeling ill as I read about these terrible men and their evil conferences. No wonder my kids; aunts, uncles, nieces, neighbors and best friends have quit going to church.
Bene Diction,
Looking forward to covering The Elephant’s Debt in today’s post. I’ve got a lot of ground to cover as I address the elephant in the room.
jimmy,
Your sarcasm is closer to the truth than you will ever realize.
Hmm…
I suppose one could nitpick over that list word-by-word in order to find some basis for accusing the NRC squad. I’ve begun to wonder, however, whether too much of what I’ve contributed to this blog (I’ve only been coming along for a few weeks, but my posts tend to be long…) is polemical. I’ll confine myself to a couple of questions, then, and in no particular order:
a) Is this NRC thing geared to demonstrating that there is truly good news, and not simply propagating a “Gospel”-labelled ideology? [GLI – there’s a new TLA for you…]
b) Is it about helping human beings come to know the Father, and not simply come and populate a movement?
c) Does “Spirit-Filled Lives”, together with “Missional Churches”, mean churches that are led in life-fulfilling purpose by the Holy Spirit, and not just businesses whose unpaid staff are spirit-enhanced so as to better resource the ambitions of the senior managers?
If so, then I don’t mind giving it a cautious welcome. I can’t pretend to be optimistic about that, though.
If I were pressed to state frankly what I think this is really about, I would compare it to the Counter-Reformation of the 16th century. I think it’s part of the reaction of traditionalists (from a wide range of motives, many of which are undoubtedly as honest as mine and none of which I’m God enough to judge) to the dawning realisation that their tradition is not the only show in town.
Because if you look around, the Spirit certainly is up to something. There is a strong groundswell of people who, precisely because they are biblically faithful, passionate believers, are walking past or away from churches like those represented in the NRC. They (we) are coming to realise that Jesus the Christ, the Son of the Living God, is to big and too glorious to be imprisoned within a theological foundation – Jesus is the theological foundation. And we hunger for far more than simply being on board with the mission to spread Jesus’ name – we want to be in him, and he in us, revealing the Father to the world. That won’t always make us popular, but – as with Jesus himself – the first people it will make us unpopular with are the guardians of traditional biblical religion. But I think that’s a price worth paying.
1. Why do they insist on bringing up complementarianism all the time? Reading that list above, they just put it on a level with the Atonement, the indwelling and the Great Commission. Really? Is it really really that important?
2. My main take-away from conference promo videos is always, “LOOK! I’M YELLING ABOUT HOW GREAT JESUS IS! THAT MEANS I’M A REAL PREACHER AND YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO ME!” Seriously, they always shout on these videos. Don’t they have microphones at these conferences?
3. Stupid off-topic question: Why is it called Mariners Church? Is that like the “Maritime Sailors Cathedral” in The Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald?
Interesting…the words “next level” and “connect” reminded me that we have a “Next Level” church here in Ft. Myers, Fl.
http://www.nextlevelchurch.com/staff
Next Level is affiliated with ARC (Association of Related Churches) that offers these connections. “The ARC offers five different categories of connection: Groups, Gatherings, Coaching, Ministry schools and Missions.”
http://www.arcchurches.com/connect
Much of the same terminology… coincidence?
Hester,
Here’s what I found on the church website (link)
“Mariners Church, as it was to be known, held its first worship service on Sunday, April 4, 1965, in a Newport Beach home. From there, the church moved to Monte Vista School, then to Mariners Elementary School (this is where the name Mariners came from), and then to Corona del Mar High School. In 1967 a full-time pastor was hired, and by 1969 the church was meeting in a small building on Pacific Coast Highway in Corona del Mar.”
Victorious –
I doubt there’s a connection. I belonged to a church that grew from 350 to 10,000. During the growth, the pastor always ran his meetings telling the staff that they might not make it to “the next level”. Levels are determined by church size, as in advice telling pastors how to get past the 200 level, what it’s like to grow past the 500, etc. It’s church-growth speak for those in the industry. Yes, industry.
Oh my goodness!!! Was that Driscoll in a suit????!!!!!!
The church I am joining says they do not want to grow beyond 500. They’ve seen a 40% growth in the last year (I think it is now at 200)- I wanted to ask (but didn’t) what they would do to discourage people after the 500 mark. I suspect they will have to just go along with it if people come.
I’m guessing Driscoll would not ask this pastor to speak at his conference.
Church planting networks are being the “in” thing today because “the Spirit is up to something.” oh my…
I’m really looking forward to your coverage of the Elephant Debt, Dee and Deb.
Can I also say that I am really tired of and dismayed by promotional videos for “Reformed”/Calvinista conferences. The size of the egos, the worship of these unremarkable “pastor” personalities, the complete embrace of American consumerism, the implicit celebration of wealth, the apparent marginalization of the global poor — it is pathetic. These videos are all the same and have developed their own iconography, which doesn’t just border on idolatrous – it is. Worst of all – people actually flock to these things and think that these guys have anything valuable to say! So much of the Christian subculture has become so incredibly shallow/callow, it makes me weep. I have a feeling that the Elephant Debt is merely the ripple in a coming storm of scandals about money within the upper echelons of Calvinsta-dom.
“Next Level…It’s church-growth speak for those in the industry. Yes, industry.”
Author Warren Cole Smith calls it “the Christian Industrial Complex” in his book, A Lover’s Quarrel with the Evangelical Church.
James MacDonald tweeted a quote from fellow megachurch growth-master Craig Groeschel: “Your potential is equal to the pain you are willing to endure to succeed at the next level.”
http://twitter.com/jamesmacdonald/status/243707111031332864
Groeschel once commented: You can grow your church by asking people to leave.
1. Gospel-Centered Theology
2. Spirit-Filled Lives
3. Complementarian Relationships
4. Missional Churches
BUZZWORD BINGO!
“Mariners’ Church, Irvine”. I work right next door to Irvine; let me tell you the reputation that city has. YUPPIE CENTRAL, with the highest lawyer-to-people ratio outside of DC. It’s in-debt-to-the-eyeballs nouveau riche snobbery is a running joke all over the county — “The Irvine Attitude”.
(Well, this DOES fit with the Calvinista trope of only “planting churches” in the big-money areas…)
The church I am joining says they do not want to grow beyond 500. They’ve seen a 40% growth in the last year (I think it is now at 200)- I wanted to ask (but didn’t) what they would do to discourage people after the 500 mark. — JeffS
Why, expand to franchise campuses, with the Celebrity Preacher/Apostle’s telepresence on a ten-meter Telescreen over the stage, of course!
One can limit the size of the church in fairly simple ways: Have only one service in one auditorium with room only for the maximum number of people you wish to have. Plant another church with the excess (SBC churches in NE Ohio used to attempt to plant a new church every year or two, asking a few families to be the core of that new church, and helping them to identify and employ a pastor, usually bivocational.) Challenge people to not come on Sunday a.m. if they are not also serving on a mission project during the week.
My main take-away from conference promo videos is always, “LOOK! I’M YELLING ABOUT HOW GREAT JESUS IS! THAT MEANS I’M A REAL PREACHER AND YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO ME!” Seriously, they always shout on these videos. Don’t they have microphones at these conferences? — Hester
Because HOLLERING is THE mark of REAL Preaching!
As Internet Monk put it years ago re Kentucky Mountain Religion, the highest complement you can give a preacher is “He has NO book-larnin, and He Is LOUD!”
Follow up:
To better understand the early beginnings of the methodology and appeal of this nonsense: http://www.jamesmacdonald.com/vertical-church-book/
Read:
Advertising the American Dream: Making Way for Modernity, 1920 – 1940 By Roland Marchand
Land of Desire: Merchants, Power, and the Rise of the New American Culture by William Leach
Fables of Abundance: A Cultural History Advertising in America by Jackson Lears
“READ THE ENDORSEMENTS”
http://www.jamesmacdonald.com/vertical-church-endorsements/
Those are not church endorsements! The churches are not named. Those are endorsements of the local micro-god in each area, by name! “Go listen to this man and sit at his feet and you will be saved!”
These conferences remind me of the local gentleman’s club in my neighborhood. Yes, the women that work there create a very welcoming atmosphere, are very friendly, have interesting stories, etc. In other words, they are very adept at creating a fantasy world. But in reality, all they are interested in is your money.
OK, trying to keep a lid on my snark, but I do have some serious questions.
First, no matter how many times we bemoan it, I still am shocked by the fact that they put complementarianism as one of their four anchors. Even if I were a complementarian, I would never rate it as that important…any more than I believe views on homosexuality are that important, or which atonement theory one believes. The Gospel and our mission are more important than secondary issues, and I thought everyone agreed on that?
Second, I could just be nitpicking, but I’m wondering about his implication when he says that “biblically faithful” people are rising up. Is this an implication that faithful adherence to scripture was waning in our culture, but is now being reborn because of the YRR movement? I find that not only offensive, but just plain wrong on a factual level. I’ve been in churches since the 80s and I’ve seen a lot of biblical faithfulness.
It could just be a buzzword phrase that pastors are supposed to use for their movement, but I’m starting to wonder if there’s not a deeper meaning behind it.
Re: Vertical Church
I don’t know. I watched the video over there and all I could think of was that verse where Christ rebukes Peter saying Peter did not have his mind on God’s interests but man’s.
The video sounds like it’s about God’s interests but feels like it’s really about man’s.
TedS –
I had stumbled on those endorsements and was going to link them. I was surprised by some of the men who endorsed the latest book.
@SadObserver – I think that is exactly what they are saying. “Reformed” Christians and the YRR truly think that they are the last bastion of biblical faithfulness. I grew up in a Reformed Church and had a kind of insider’s perspective on the Mohler years at Southern and both experiences have confirmed this for me.
Second, I could just be nitpicking, but I’m wondering about his implication when he says that “biblically faithful” people are rising up. Is this an implication that faithful adherence to scripture was waning in our culture, but is now being reborn because of the YRR movement?
Sad Observer,
I found the exact same thing some years ago when I was researching the Harvest Church of his. They had a vid there where he asked the viewer if they wanted to be part of a church that believes the Bible, as though this new church of his is the only one that does that.
That vid is long gone now so I can’t find the exact quote. But it rubbed my feathers the wrong way.
Caleb
It is also a warning how supposedly theolgically astute me can suddenly find “worth” in the prosperity gospel as MacDonald has done. It sure helps him to defend his $1.9 million crib.
TedS
Some of those guys will RUN as this scandal becomes well-known. Especially when they find out that MacDonald did not cosey up to TD Jakes because he wanted to affect his view on modalism but to learn and absorb Jakes' view on money. We will be discussing this. Totally floored me! Here is my question. Is Driscoll of the same mind? I am deeply suspicious.
Arce
So true.Nowadays it is usually the face of the pastor emblazoned over every ad for churches. Disturbing,
Joe
Thank you for making me laugh this morning.
sad observer
The “biblically faithful” people who are rising up are better characterized as the doctrinally faithful. You would not be consider “biblically faithful” by their definintion of those words.neither would I.
Bridget
These guys are so busy running around giving "speeches", writing books, and attending "edifying" conferences that they have no flaming idea what the heck is going on over at MacDonald's playland.
I still am shocked by the fact that they put complementarianism as one of their four anchors.
This really bothers me as well. There is so very little in the Bible on this issue, that, as far as the Bible is concerned it’s a non-issue, yet the comps have managed to spin this into a foundational doctrine of the Christian faith, right up there with the Ten Commandments and the Resurrection. They just make up their own Gospel that fits their own prejudices.
Another foundational doctrine for so many of these high profile ‘leaders’:
Growth trumps Gospel.
Jeff:
You said:”This really bothers me as well. There is so very little in the Bible on this issue, that, as far as the Bible is concerned it’s a non-issue, yet the comps have managed to spin this into a foundational doctrine of the Christian faith, right up there with the Ten Commandments and the Resurrection. They just make up their own Gospel that fits their own prejudices.”
For the women in the Southern Baptist who believe God has called them to the ministry–because of the Comp emphasis they are told they are wrong and if they will not accept being told they are wrong they are told they are always welcome to leave the Southern Baptist Convention.
Remember how the discussion here in the Propaganda/Puritan thread was about movements and how they are reactions to other things? And specifically how the YRR movement was a reaction to the Church Growth movement?
Well, we are now witness to the marriage of the YRR/NC(New Puritan) crowd and the Church Growth/Purpose Driven crowd the YRR crowd reacted against.
Jeff –
Growth = $$$, Name Fame, and Power (sadly)
Multi-Level Marketing was what instantly came to mind when watching the video clip.
In fact, i recently attended a MLM event at a convention center and it is oh-so-similar. Throbbing music, the way speakers are dressed, the exact same language (“next level”), impassioned speakers feeding off the energy from the star-struck audience (I can only imagine the fervor whipped up in the room, the spell over the audience — exactly the same at the MLM event). Even the inclusion of a person with disadvantage / handicap — EXACTLY as at the MLM event.
Oh, if only Christopher Guest and Eugene Levy would make their next film about this. The parody would write itself. The caricatures are ready-made. (i might contact them with the idea)
(i attended MLM event as a polite guest of a friend)
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From the clip, why do we draw a liine between being “helpful” and “therapeutic” and the “presence of God”? Not only do I reject that we must chose, but I reject that there IS a dichotomy. If we are vertical we are horizontal and if we are horizontal we are vertical. Can we truly love God without loving others? Can we truly love others without loving God?
Jesus sure had a few things to say about focusing in the vertical while neglecting the horizontal.
We already have too much pastorolatry and famous preacher/writer olatry, treating them like little gods and seemingly unable to see their faults and false teachings. I hear Christians more often praising their pastor, music minister, etc., than their God, in conversations with me and others. That said, we do not need to make idols of anyone, including Calvin, the Puritans, etc., and our culture has a real tendency to do that. People swoon at music, TV and movie stars, and more people know what is happening on Survivor or Americal IDOL (after all) than in the political scene for Congress, which might actually affect everyone’s life and rights. (E.g., SCt authorizing the govt to obtain your cell phone messages, etc., without a warrant and with no recourse vis a vis your service provider, even if it violates your contract with them.)
Please, no more worship of human beings. All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and whatever else they do, when they put themselves out in the public sphere, they have licensed the world to critique whatever they have said and to find fault with what has been said. Otherwise, they could keep their thoughts to themselves.
Mot
What’s astounding is that the SBC had women ministers until the comps changed the rules. So what do they tell a woman who is called to ministry? So far as I can tell, there’s only 3 possible answers they can give:
1- There is no call, must be voices in your head;
2- It’s a call from Satan;
3- You’re lying.
The belief that God would not call a woman to ministry is pure Biblical BS
Here is a stupid question: How many James McDonald preachers are there? Is this the one whose wife is Stacy from Ladies Against Feminism? I hope not.
Retha – that is a different person. You are referring to the one who has connections with RC Sproul Jr. James McDonald is into heavy-handed authoritarian teaching, patriarchy- – actually pretty scary stuff. I have read personal accounts and it is shocking how women are treated. Here is his website: http://www.providencecpc.org/about/our-leaders/
We need to be concerned about both James McDonald AND James MacDonald.
There’s one simple reason, as far as I can tell, that Mark Driscoll would want to be involved with Resurgence at Mariners Church.
It’s in Southern California (Newport Beach) and is a nice break from the Northwest Rain….I mean, what better way to write off a family vacation to some of the most beautiful beach front in the country, than by hooking up with Mariners Church huge campus of churches right down the road from the beach?
Last year TGC was in Chicago, next year is Orlando. But Orlando is cross country and a little too humid and rainy for us Northwest boys…it’s a no brainer in my book 🙂
Professional christians take themselves way too seriously.
Is it only me, or has anyone else not heard anything worth remembering from anyone with a mic in years?
I tend to think there’s not all that much more to talk about, so people
(1) regurgitate what has already been said,
(2) overthink it all and come up with something odd and very non-intuitive (not because it is higher thinking but because it is, in fact, odd & the product of someone turning their brain inside-out like a paper cup over a non-issue),
(3) come up with “accessories” — church growth, church discipline, coaching, etc . — and make THEM the point of it all, a big deal and a reason to write books and have a conference. (gives them something to talk about)
*******
Of course, it is entirely untrue that all that can be said about God has been said. Everything is just so stale now.
Perhaps it’s celebrity fixation, and feeding off what other people write and say (instead of what God himself via Holy Spirit would say — afterall, is God incapable of speaking directly to someone? must that someone go to famous names to tune in to a supposed God broadcast?)
Stale because everyone is breathing everyone’s exhales? (i think so — christian culture for the most part is in an oxygen-poor stupor)
I do feel something deeper forming in the collective Holy Spirit consciousness on earth (note, i’m avoiding christianese as much as possible)… i don’t think it’s very far along, but it is happening.
It will require change. I don’t imagine these resurgence chatterbox-types will handle it well.
Why, pray tell, are there so many conferences all the time?
Elastigirl –
They will probably handle it just like those in the past, by minimizing anyone who thinks outside their idea of church whether it is orthodox, seeker, traditional, charismatic, etc. Thankfully that those labels are not qualifiers to be a disciple of Christ.
E.G. asks: Why, pray tell, are there so many conferences all the time?
Conferences = $$$ and keeps their names as celebrity pastors
It’s only about ME and $$$
Why, pray tell, are there so many conferences all the time? Capitalism at its finest.
experimenting with italics
and not italics
hmmm….
To make Italics:
at the beginning
at the end
remove all spaces 🙂
Well, that was a fail – lol my code was removed.
Try this: http://www.boogiejack.com/html/html-italics.html
ohhhh ah yes.
darn & double darn!
I escaped the pitfall of becoming a conference Christian by not going.
I looked at the endorsements…scroll all the way up & be dazzled by the whitest teeth in the world ever! It looks like he has some form of denture sweet behing his lips…or do we only have those in England. The Teeth. They scare me.
Off Topic: A Twitter Outburst … http://is.gd/UT6uo9
Closing the italics Any better?
WordPress is different than blogger 🙁
Now it should be working!
No luck.
@ anonymous:
“And specifically how the YRR movement was a reaction to the Church Growth movement? Well, we are now witness to the marriage of the YRR/NC (New Puritan) crowd and the Church Growth/Purpose Driven crowd the YRR crowd reacted against.”
Yes, one would think that a YRR person reacting against the Church Growth movement would NOT want to share a stage with Rick Warren. There’s a reason some people refer to him as the Purpose-Driven Pope. And yet…there he is. At the same conference with Mark Driscoll…
Hey, why is everything italics?
GBTC should be able to fix the running wild italics.
Hester, Resurgence is Mars Hill so, yes (even of course), Driscoll’s name is going to be up there. Haven’t finished everything in the hopper connected to discussing Resurgence or the old Capstone Institute just yet.
I know why they put complementarianism as one of their four foundational things. It’s to let the women know that they are not first class, not invited to leadership and if the women don’t like it, they can just go to h*ll.
I actually appreciate this truth in advertising!
Didn’t Heaven’s Gate (formerly the Bo-Peepers) talk about “Taking themselves to the Next Level”?
Hester, I've been researching / writing today's post and just saw the italics issue.
I hope it's now fixed. 🙂
BeakerJ
What is denture sweet?
http://www.pickasweet.co.uk/Dentures_Gummy_Sweets/p502675_1796486.aspx
E.G. : “Why, pray tell, are there so many conferences all the time?”
(Not sure what’s likely to happen with the italics, but never mind…)
You might say that, actually, there are very few major conferences, but a large number of “preaching concerts”. A conference would be where people confer; steps would be taken to prevent groupthink and draw out everyone’s contribution. But most large Christian events are no more “conferences” than a Guns ‘n Roses gig is a public jamming session.
There are probably several reasons for this; we can’t blame Driscoll for everything. In part it’s the fact that so many of us “ordinary believers” would rather spend a lot of money going to here some famous speakers than spend ourselves on behalf of the poor and needy. And maybe in our desire to hear celebrity ministers we overlook the enormity of coming before the Throne of Grace in our own homes.
Another reason is that many of us have become enamoured of big-scene “worship”. It’s a problem I’ve had locally here, in that a whole load of believers have become so adept at surfing the mood swings you get from a progression of well-produced songs, that they openly equate the state of emotional arousal they experience with “the presence of God”. (As in, “you’ve got to provide a progression of songs to bring us into the presence of God”. Sorry, my dear friend, but I can’t do with the keyboard what Jesus apparently could not do by the cross…)
I read once that someone said to Mark Twain: And, of course, I intend to go to the Holy Land before I die, and recite the Ten Commandments on Mount Sinai. To which Twain replied: “Really? Why not stay here in New York, and keep them?” I’m not personally big on conferences, because for me, it would just be a substitute for actually doing anything.
After having had the displeasure of this viewing experience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQcp-J-3njw
I cannot read the phrase “a new level” with a straight face. (Whole nuther level, whole new devil.)
RE: Caleb W on Thu Oct 11,2012 at 09:30 AM,
You’ve hit the target with the accuracy of a drone lighting up a Madrassa in Pakistan. The conference is in the ideological heart of the Orange Curtain (as HUG would put it). They are white, well heeled, and have gotten over Romney’s Mormonism. They still believe with all fervor that America’s fiscal woes are caused by black welfare queens in Cadillacs, seniors on social security, and of course Big Bird. You didn’t think they’d hold it in an area where the disposable income is shall we say not as high?
Don’t forget Driscoll started out as Emergent and then went over to the up and coming Reformed movement. (Good business move, if you think about it)but now, the Reformed movement as in Piper/T4G/GC are distancing themselves from Driscoll/Acts 29.
Driscoll is a showman. He will always find a stage and others who can promote him. Warren is also out of fashion and most likely itching to get back as an influencer.
Never forget. Most of these guys are showman. They need a stage. Ministry is just the easiest way to get one so fast.
Nick
so many of us “ordinary believers” would rather spend a lot of money going to here some famous speakers than spend ourselves on behalf of the poor and needy
Too true. We all want that religious ‘lift’, never mind what we’re supposed to do, it’s all about ME and how I want to ‘feel it’
@ Nick,
Loved the Twain quote! As you may know, my nom de plume is pilfered from one of his stories. Poor old Muff was a drunken old sod who got framed for the murder of the good Dr. Robinson by the black heart Injun Joe.
whatever the “next level” is, I don’t think I would want to go there. BTW How many levels are there I wonder ? ha
Anon1, the stuff about Driscoll being Emergent has made the rounds but in his earlier years he was a John MacArthur fan and may not have realized the Emergents didn’t fit his beliefs at all. He’d hang with them, apparently, but they were the happening thing at that time.
You know what, Jeff? I used to go to conferences and/or retreats for just that reason. (I used to watch soap operas too, but I got over it.) Eventually I figured out it doesn’t work. It Does. Not. Work. You cannot get more God at a conference. All you can get is hyped up emotions and, depending on the conference, you can also sign your life away or some other draconian thing under the influence of said hyped emotions, which you would never do if in your right mind.
Conferences are a suspension of reality, not an enhancement of it.
It’s like that guy whose name is escaping me who wanted Balaam to curse Israel and he couldn’t do it, so the guy said, well if it didn’t work from this mountain, let’s go to this other mountain instead, then maybe it’ll work!
“You might say that, actually, there are very few major conferences, but a large number of “preaching concerts”. A conference would be where people confer; steps would be taken to prevent groupthink and draw out everyone’s contribution. But most large Christian events are no more “conferences” than a Guns ‘n Roses gig is a public jamming session.”
Perfect! “Preaching Concerts”. I have put on a ton of business conferences and I agree with Nick. Calling them conferences is spin. Actually, They are more like indoctrination reeducation camps. Mao would be proud.
Diane
So, not only did we write about this,but, did you know that I, your humble blog queen, attended Ed’s church for 1 1/2 years-one other notable Dee fail? Ed knows me very well. I am sure he is not pleased since I have written extensively on him.I am still atoning…
@ Dee~
Yes, I do remember you mentioning that.
The whole new/next/nuther level is all I heard in the wof camp. MacDonald alludes to it with his “how much to give” cards…”look at 2 numbers and choose the one above it”…stretch your faith and God will bless me, I mean you. Then when you do get to a next new nuther level, there will be an even stronger devil to contend with because he hates your getting to the next level and hates that you won the battle. So get cracking on the spiritual warfare prayers, confessions and declarations and double down on the donations.
“most of these guys are showman” I would have to say all of them.
They are all narcissists who are there for their own glory, fame, power, money,etc. They’re just using God and others to achieve this. They hide behind the church and pretend to love God. It’s just disqusting….
“Conferences are a suspension of reality, not an enhancement of it.”
Exactly. My fellow recovering Southern Baptists of a certain age may recall a youth campy thing called Centrifuge. I have no idea if it still exists or not, but it was a very well-choreographed, week long exercise in emotional manipulation — getting the saved unsaved so you can get them saved again. These “conferences” seem to be a similar thing, only for grow ups who should know better — getting the reformed unreformed so you can get them reformed again — with an unpleasant mercenary undertone to the bouquet.
“Conferences are a suspension of reality, not an enhancement of it.”
So true. I cannot get the young man who stayed with us for T4G who was totally broke and had a wife and young child at home. Being at T4G was more important to him than anything. I find that ironic considering their teaching on male roles. Al, CJ, Ligon and Dever before family?
It reminded of those people who were totally besotted with Amway and would sell their last item to make it to a convention. In fact, much of Christianity today is modeled on Amway with this blind devotion to leaders.
@ anonymous
“You know what, Jeff? I used to go to conferences and/or retreats for just that reason. (I used to watch soap operas too, but I got over it.) Eventually I figured out it doesn’t work. It Does. Not. Work.”
It’s about as successful as trying to carry on conversations in real life like they are done on soap operas:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dXXW-RHdIro
Clop these “Conferences”.
I’m going to Equestria LA in three weeks. Much more enjoyable.
whatever the “next level” is, I don’t think I would want to go there. BTW How many levels are there I wonder ? ha — Seeking Truth
Well, Heaven’s Gate tried to make it to THEIR Next Level behind Hale-Bopp.
Not being as savvy or spiritual as the average Wartburg commenter – dryly, I still find conferences encouraging; provide a lift to my life and generally enhance my knowledge/wisdom.
BTW, that’s why I go to church regularly. I need the fellowship and the encouragement.
For myself I’ve found I can’t stand alone.
Paying attention to the O.T., God had a regular annual schedule of conferences/celebrations. He seemed to think we needed to be reminded. I know I need to be reminded.
Pam,
That was funny! And very true!
The other thing they need to do is show how incredibly good someone looks right after they’ve had major surgery! Make up and everything!
And how they go around their own house dressed to the nines, just in case someone shows up to demolish their life in one of those back turned conversations.
It reminded of those people who were totally besotted with Amway and would sell their last item to make it to a convention. In fact, much of Christianity today is modeled on Amway with this blind devotion to leaders. — Anon1
Then it’s come full-circle, because Amway modeled its “conventions” on pop Christianity — specifically, tent revival meetings. With Amway as your Personal Savior, your Upline as your Shepherd discipling you, and Witnessing Witnessing Witnessing for downline converts.
(Why am I flashing on this flash scene from an old Simpsons episode? The one where a desperate-for-cash Homer’s sitting with a big crowd in a “conference center”, all wearing “Pyramid Power” T-shirts, all chanting “Money for Free! Money for Free! Money For Free!”)
@ Jimmy
I’ve done my share of conferences and enjoyed most of them (the women’s conferences that assume all attendees are married with kids didn’t do so much for me), but they become too much of a focus. Going to the odd conference can be an encouragement, but the proliferation over recent years, it becomes about who’s going and which cool speaker they have, rather than what can I learn. At least that’s been my experience.
The one type of event I tended to find really good were the youth events. They’d be on a Friday or Saturday night and were a way to bring together youth groups from all over the city. For Christian teens who tend to get thought of as uncool and who maybe feel disconnected from their peers, to go to hear a Christian talk + band with hundreds or thousands of other Christians the same age could be a real encouragement. But as I’ve gotten older, I find I don’t get as much out of them. That might be a symptom of going to too many – familiarity breeding contempt and all that – or it might be that I just got to the point where it all seemed the same.
Anon 1
Calling them conferences is spin. Actually, They are more like indoctrination reeducation camps.
And at the other end of the spectrum are the religious ‘conferences’ that are nothing more than a series of motivational speakers who wind you up to a ‘high’. But two hours later you’re hungry for something of substance.
“And at the other end of the spectrum are the religious ‘conferences’ that are nothing more than a series of motivational speakers who wind you up to a ‘high’. But two hours later you’re hungry for something of substance.”
Religous Chinese take out. :o)
I would argue there is little substance at most of these conferences. They mainly consist of the adulation of the men on stage.
Darn it! I should demand a refund for my theology degree since they never showed me the bit where Jesus (or Paul?) talked about the ‘levels’ we have to work through!!
Or does it come from an apocryphal gospel where they were all playing video games?
Jimmy:
“Not being as savvy or spiritual as the average Wartburg commenter – dryly, I still find conferences encouraging; provide a lift to my life and generally enhance my knowledge/wisdom.”
Awesome. And what is it you get exactly out of trolling these comments? Truly curious.
Has anyone mentioned James 1:27 yet?
Do you get a different color belt for each level?
“Do you get a different color belt for each level?”
No–you get a whole new devil.
I thought the comments in this thread~
http://sbcvoices.com/gospel-driven-leadership-conference-25-discount-from-tim-brister/
were pretty darn funny. IMO, note the way Timmy Brister evades answering the question posed to him. It’s a simple question. The whole thread is pretty funny…and yes, we are supposed to pay these men for leadership training. Oops, I mean “Gospel-Driven Leadership” (25% discount duly noted and appreciated).
Dee asked, “Is Driscoll of the same mind? I am deeply suspicious.”
This should answer your question once and for all:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPxuTcyR1TA
“They have real estate like you would not believe.
James has the spiritual gift of real estate acquisition.”
The gift of real estate. Right. And the way he goes on about needing resources is a hint about why plants are not in poor areas – what resources will a single parent working two menial jobs bring in?
And am I the only one who finds the idea of these giant churches with congregations the size of a country town daunting and soulless? I like being able to know who I share my Sundays with. I don’t see how you do that in a church so enormous like the one in the photo at the top.
Driscoll seems to want to learn from MacDonald —
“Why did we invite James MacDonald to speak at the R12 Conference? Because he is a good friend and he pastors Harvest Bible Chapel located in Chicagoland. His Walk in the Word radio ministry is insightful, he publishes books, and he hosts the Elephant Room debates (www.theelephantroom.com/). James MacDonald has the ability to raise resources—and we need resources. Every family needs a budget, a home, and some gas in the tank to do whatever it is that they need to do. Churches and ministries are families, and they need resources. We want to learn from Pastor James as he teaches us how to increase our resources for Jesus.” MD
Does Jesus need our resources?
“We want to learn from Pastor James as he teaches us how to increase our resources for Jesus.”
Hmmm. Harvest Bible church 65 million in debt. Right.
hmm .. what became of the cattle on a thousand hills?
Odd how the early church managed to evangelise so effectively without resources…
That is a consideration . . . wonder if Driscoll knows or cares as he urges his flock to follow what James M. has to teach them?
We may paradoxically have John MacArthur to thank for the Driscoll/MacDonald partnership.
James MacDonald’s “spiritual gift of real estate acquisition” … MH has less than 1/3rd the debt HBC seems to have. MH probably wants to avoid following whatever it was HBC and MacDonald did to get to that number.
Anyone else spot the part where Driscoll refers to MacDonald as a rare “prophet/king”?
Well, if Resurgence makes boatloads of money perhaps that could eventually be enough money to revive the possibly defunct Master of Missional Leadership program from the Resurgence Training Center.
Seems pretty prosperity gospel-ly to me.
From 3 months ago-
“Some people look at other’s lives and wonder, “Why don’t I have what they have?” and “Why doesn’t God answer my prayers like He answers theirs?” They may speculate on all the horizontal reasons, but I can tell you why. The flow of God’s blessing into their lives has been plugged up by their own stinginess. They are not experiencing the grace of giving.”
http://www.jamesmacdonald.com/teaching/devotionals/2012-07-31/
This from June of 2011…this is typical Kenneth Copeland teaching.
“There are some verifiable consequences that will follow when we don’t trust God in the area of finances that involves tithing:
•Absence of God’s protection on your finances.”
http://www.jamesmacdonald.com/teaching/devotionals/2011-06-27/
Why are these "ministers" like MacDonald not in jail or prison for their corrupt activities?
mot, because of their followers
I hope for the sake of people at Mars Hill that MacDonald’s “spiritual gift for real estate acquisition” doesn’t rub off on anyone in the leadership at Mars Hill. Do more stuff like giving to the Union Gospel Mission, the Salvation Army, or something like that. Megachurches that follow a “too big to fail” plan already have an object lesson in other “too big to fail” institutions. Driscoll told congregants earlier this year “You are the money fairy.” Maybe it’s time for the top dogs to stop making the same kinds of wishes? It would seem the biggest source of deficits would be more likely to be “central expenses” like the record label or renting Ephesus than just making sure someone is at Mars Hill Shoreline to pop the DVD of Driscoll in.
WTH-
For someone who used to attend MHC & does extensive research you seem completely unaware of many changes at MHC over the past year to lower debt & expenses before real estate aquisition.
Sutton Turner, their Executive Pastor shrunk the size of central staff, moved out of a leased central office space & consolidated to already owned B52 building. MHC was also fronting much of the admin costs of A29 & by shifting that burden back to the network & to the Village Church it lowered expenses. Then as they have been in the process of aquiring real estate, they are having each church raise funds for their own building, thereby making the whole operation more sustainable.
I don’t go to MHC, but I do my homework. With all the content they release, this information is readily available. I would encourage you to be more thorough & well-thought about MHC before sharing on this blog. Thanks,
You’re welcome to reference and document your claims from primary sources and secondary sources any time. It will establish that you’ve done your homework and help people better understand where to do their research.
RE: Muff Potter – And they got over Romney’s mormonism pretty fast!
I think that the discussion of conferences in this thread is great. As I’ve mentioned before, I work in ‘the secular academy’ – a place that the YRR/NeoCalvinista’s never pass up a chance to criticize. Academics and universities are constantly berated from the pulpit and in books – I used to hear it all the time when I moved in Reformed circles. And yet, the recent appearence of church ‘campuses’ and and a penchant for titles (Dr. Piper, Dr. Sproul; ‘pastor of preaching and vision’ etc) and conferences galore suggest some of the ways that these personalities ape the academy, setting themselves up as intellectuals (rather than being given that name, as it should be). Sadly, these conferences are caricatures of what an actual conference is supposed to be: a place where scholars share their latest research in order to receive criticism about how to make their work better. Can you imagine if critical feedback were central to these conferences? Then they might actually deserve the name, rather than the stage shows (as others here have said) that they are.
Jimmy – excellent big man, keep ’em coming. [NB – that has to be read in a Glasgow accent to work properly. To sample an authentic Glasgow accent, check out this advert shown on Scottish TV a few years ago.]
It’s quite true that God ordered (I think) four conferences a year. Now, wouldn’t that be cool? All the tribes – for which read, all the different churches – coming together, with no egos, no celebrities (and occasionally no women or children… we might have to fine-tune that one a bit), everybody celebrating what God has done. You’d need a different kind of leadership, I think. The minister (vicar, to be exact) of the Anglican (again, Episcopalian, to be exact) church in Stirling is really gifted at giving brief but really informative introductions without drawing attention to herself. And yes, I said herself.
That’s so mad, it could work. The really thought-provoking thing about those OT conferences, imho, is that they weren’t about “focusing on God”. It was more a case of cementing the peoples’ understanding of him so that their everyday lives were focused on God.
WTH
You misheard him. He said profit/king. 🙂
Caleb
Interestingly, many of these so called PhD’s are not earned in the usual sense, with hard work and determination. Many of them hold honorary doctorates who than go on to call themselves “doctor” showing a profound misunderstandiing of etiquette. Also, a few started colleges which then bestowed a doctorate on the founder. I keep meaning to write a story on this.
Joe seems to be to be to Mark Driscoll what Jimmy is to CJ Mahaney! The “IS” just isn’t completely known yet.
Oh my–challenge people not to come if they are not involved in a mission project during the week? Really, Arce?
Perhaps the vocation GOD has given one means staying home raising your children as your mission. Or perhaps it is brain surgery 5 days a week. Whatever.
Are you saying those folks should not attend Sunday morning services?
WTH-
My pleasure. Here are a few primary sources associated with my claims.
Central Office Changes:
Driscoll mentions downsizing central staff & budget in Update, MHC 6/13. http://marshill.com/2012/06/13/an-update-on-the-church-from-pastor-mark-june-2012
Driscoll’s made mention of his downsized office on FB 7/31.
http://instagram.com/p/NwxBxMsguv/
Acts 29 Costs:
Driscoll on MHC giving millions of dollars to A29 including office space on A29 3/28.
http://www.acts29network.org/acts-29-blog/a-note-on-some-transitions/
Chandler says previously 80 percent of funding came from MHC in Christian Post 4/11.
http://www.christianpost.com/news/no-vision-shift-after-mark-driscoll-leaves-acts-29-leadership-73047/
New Churches:
Scott Mitchell of Everett speaks on purchase of Everett building on MHC 8/24.
http://marshill.com/2012/08/24/join-mars-hill-everett-in-preparing-for-our-new-building
Bubba Jennings, who will lead Tacoma on purchase of Tacoma building on MHC 8/29.
http://marshill.com/2012/08/29/were-purchasing-one-of-the-oldest-church-buildings-in-tacoma
Nick Bogardus of OC on moving to a rental space that costs less on MHC 9/16.
http://marshill.com/2012/09/16/5-reasons-were-excited-and-thankful-for-our-move-to-orangewood
All readily available thanks to Al Gore’s creation: the internet.
Joe, do the pew sitters who have funded everything get to see a detailed budget?
@ Caleb,
“…Can you imagine if critical feedback were central to these conferences? Then they might actually deserve the name, rather than the stage shows (as others here have said) that they are…”
That’s the thing in a nutshell. They will brook no critique whatsoever outside of their own ideologically closed circles. If I were much younger and an ambitious grad student in the social sciences, I’d probably entertain a thesis on how the clergy has been able to maintain a cloak of exemption as it were, and remained virtually untouched by the Enlightenment.
“thought the comments in this thread~
http://sbcvoices.com/gospel-driven-leadership-conference-25-discount-from-tim-brister/
were pretty darn funny. IMO, note the way Timmy Brister evades answering the question posed to him. It’s a simple question. The whole thread is pretty funny…and yes, we are supposed to pay these men for leadership training. Oops, I mean “Gospel-Driven Leadership” 25% discount duly noted and appreciated”
Diane, I am so glad someone else read that thread and had the same thoughts. Are these petty little men or what? And they are pastors!!!! Ed Stetzer is building his “national brand” name awareness speaking all over and is the master of spin for whatever the SBC honchos decide.
Notice how Timmy (He was known as “Timmy” here for years when he was making a name for himself) and others went to great lengths to try and downplay the Calvinist conference as not being Calvinist but then saying he would only plant churches with his same “core values”. These guys just kill me. They really believe their own spin. Wendy is so right about them all having narcissistic tendencies. I really believe the YRR movement attracts narcissists.
Let me translate them: We cooperate with everyone in church planting as long as they believe the same Gospel we do. (Nevermind we define it differently. We are right. They are heretics)
Anon1-
Not just pew sitters, but anyone who does their homework on the Internet can get copy of annual reports every year & they now do monthly video updates on finances. MHC has always released much more financial data than most churches of it’s size.
Joe, you are a good apologist for them.
But those reports are released for public consumption.
They serve a propaganda purpose in that they serve to keep the purse strings of the “tithers” and “pledgers” loosened. It creates the impression that the top leadership is transparent. It is an illusion.
Try this. If you are a member, ask if you can see the breakdown of staff and pastor salaries and compensation. How much in the form of royalties does the church receive from book sales? Are book sales audited? If you actually dared to do this, who wants to bet you will not be labelled as a troublemaker?
If you do ask the pointed questions and you actually receive open and honest answers, please inform us all here and post your documents so that perhaps opinions may change and the bad taste in many mouths may be washed out by the revlations of your truth.
The relationship between MD and JM makes me a little uneasy about the real estate MHC is acquiring, as of late. :/
I’m not surprised that the resurgence lists complementarian relationships as one of it’s core values. At MHC, men really can’t hold leadership positions unless they have “proven” they can “lead” a woman. I’ve seen more than a few interns at MH on the prowl for wives because of this outlook on leadership.
My question then becomes, what about men who are called to celibacy? It seems they really have no place to belong within MHC. 🙁
I’ll start commenting here on a more regular basis, and maybe one day I will tell my MHC story, but right now I am in a delicate situation that makes me unable to say much.
MH Member
Welcome to our blog. I hope you find it of support to you. Never feel pressure to tell you story. Just know that you when you are ready, so are we and that we will vigorously protect your identity.
I am very interested in your statement about “celibate” men not having a place in leadership. Guess Paul and Jesus would be persona non grata as well. So you are in good company, far better company than with Driscoll, et al.
MHCMember874, that’s not too surprising, disappointing to hear it’s still a status game and maybe more than it was circa 2004-2007 but not a big surprise. I’ve met people within MH who noticed that guys get girlfriends relatively quickly after becoming CG leaders. Not always, but there does seem to be a pattern of it. YOu have to have actually been in the culture to see the oddly status-driven nature of a lot of discussion about pairing off and mating and it’s not necessarily something people will see if they are so busy looking for “the one”.
Annual reports ARE fundraising tools, to be sure, but the information they provide is not completely useless. It would be mistaken to assume an annual report is accountability at the level of a 990 (not that churches necessarily fill out 990s) just as it would be mistaken to assume that an annual report is “only” fluff. It’s often more in between.
dee, celibacy has never been seen as a legitimate calling at MH unless you’re smuggling Bibles into China. 🙂 You’d have to have actually been in the culture to get how much it permeates the scene.
MH is not necessarily different from other evangelical churches on this subject but it seems as though, from a longtime unpaired perspective, the evangelical so emphasizes purity and fidelity that the subject of status in mating essentially gets ignored or denied. In a secular setting fidelity and purity are graded on a curve provided that equality or simply a satisfactory set of status positions are attained. What can be difficult to see in a MH setting is how status-driven the mating game can be in the midst of mating in the right way. If you don’t want to play that status game on either side of the secular/sacred divide then in a sense you’re almost opting out of the mating game by default. So what MHCMember874 has said doesn’t seem hard to understand and it also calls to mind some things shared by some of my non-Christian friends about their frustrations being a long-term single.
It has seemed to me that the Christian drive toward purity and fidelity (good things) blind that community to the status element in the mating game. The “secular” alternatives are more apt to grade on a curve regarding purity and fidelity while being quite a bit more up front about issues of status (not that they will necessarily concede this point on their side of things, either). If Jonathan Haidt is right to say that once you encircle the “sacred” for your community the things around that sacred circle become much harder to see; if he’s right about that then this could explain the blind spots Christians have about status as a foundational element in mating games while secularists underestimate how much most of them really value purity and fidelity as a status indicator of the worth of a partner while being more overtly aware of a need for some kind ofstatus parity in a contemporary coupling. Just some ideas for consideration there.
“Not just pew sitters, but anyone who does their homework on the Internet can get copy of annual reports every year & they now do monthly video updates on finances. MHC has always released much more financial data than most churches of it’s size.”
My dear Joe. A church’s “annual report” is not a legal document as it is for a corporation. I doubt I would believe much of what MHC puts out considering the facts we now know of how it operates. Just a quick read of Joyful Exiles disabuses me of such naivete.
TedS-
Once again I do not attend MHC, so I won’t be asking any of your questions.
Anon1-
My point remains that MHC still releases more financial data than most churches at all. 503c financials are required to be audited & MHC releases audited numbers.
On the contrary, your naivetee is clearly shown by believing the writings of people you have never even met. Stories are always biased.
MHCMember874-
What of the single elders who have served at MHC over the years? It’s the small minority, but they are there.
“your naivetee is clearly shown by believing the writings of people you have never even met. Stories are always biased.”
And Anon1 would need to have met Mark Driscoll, Jamie Munson, and Scott Thomas because … ?
If we believe the writings of people we’ve never even met and should be cautious because stories are biased then should we just stop reading the Gospels because the evangelists were so biased toward this idea of saying that Jesus is God? 😉
WTH-
In context I was rebutting his claim that he was not naive by reading Joyful Exiles, yet those who believed MH reports were too trusting. No he does not need to meet every individual, but the Petry’s story is precisely that: their story intertwined with their own biases. They are no different than you or me, or humanity in general. Clearly Scripture is on another scale due to inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
Joe
So Plato may or may not have existed? Could he have been a contruct?
Joe, citing the role of the Spirit in inspiration of the canonical gospels is well and good as far as that goes … but that further highlights a problem with your earlier line of argument. You’ve tried to make a case that Anon1 should not trust the account of people Anon1 has never met and that everyone has biases.
Yet you have granted that despite this the canonical gospels are trustworthy and cite the role of the Spirit in inspiring the texts.
Yet that specific defense of the canonical Gospels has a problem highlighted by the existence of a variety of forms of what some call neo-orthodox thought–even people who reject that the Bible is inerrant or infallible could STILL say that the books were, somehow, in some sense inspired by the Holy Spirit, couldn’t they?
There’s another traditional defense of the canonical Gospels and that is that they were based on firsthand accounts, eyewitness testimony, and apostolic participation. Appealing to firsthand accounts and participant accounts would seem like an important and basic claim about the credibility of the Gospels that would, traditionally, precede a discussion of inspiration for this or that text, at least for many Christians, if not most.
WTH-
You brought up the origin of Scripture, not me, but I gave you a short answer anyways. My point still stands.
Joe, you may not realize you actually shot your own point down once you defended the credibillity of scripture.
If Anon1 should not naively trust that an author Anon1 doesn’t know who has a bias says something is the case that becomes a self-defeating line of argument. You are, after all, an anonymous joe with some biases about Mars Hill and Mark Driscoll. Does that mean people should not take anything you say seriously?
Your point was self-refuting just in terms of your own posts, Joe. That you conceded that we don’t now the Evangelists and that they had a bias yet they wrote inspired Scripture was simply a different level at which you conceded that your original argument to Anon1 doesn’t stand.
Now if your point was to say Anon1 should not trust Joyful Exiles but should trust MH annual reports that has been asserted in some fashion but not actually proven. Who says both sources of information can’t be construed as essentially reliable? After all, you’ve said that you don’t attend MH and haven’t been a member? So how do you know who is being more accurate? If you’re going to make a case that some documents that have come out of MH are accurate (annual reports) and others aren’t (since all the documents across both cases were produced internally at MH) you need to come up with some criteria and some reasons besides “bias” from one or more parties. We’ve already agreed that “bias” does not invalidate the Gospels, after all.
WTH 1:32 AM
Everyone should read your comment!!! Last night, a great friend here at TWW sent Deb and me a gift. It was one of those picture ID holders that people wear in companies. On it was this motto:In God we trust. All others we monitor. Totally agree.
I honestly wouldn’t be the least bit surprised if Driscoll and MacDonald ended up at a compound in Guyana.
friends… i am struggling here… I have read the top 70% of this Blog posts comments. i don’t get it.
Several People her have made tough comments on Motive. Just want to be a Mega church, it all about book sales etc etc.. Paul says in Philippians 1:18 –
“But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice. Yes, and I will continue to rejoice”
In regards to a another conference. What is training supposed to look like? what would it have to look like for someone not to condemn them. If you started a training initiative with a national objective… what would they be saying about your model…
This I know… Thousands of people know Jesus Christ in a personal way because the leaders of these ministries stepped forward when God called them. They are far from perfect, in fact they were kinda like our biblical super stars David, Moses, Paul, Peter… broken… Some of them have a perpetual foot in their mouth (kinda like Peter)
I do not want to condemn them for not having my exact kind of philosophy or leadership style and I ask that you would choose not to have a hand in destroying what God is doing through these men.
Please help us all in being the Bride of Christ…
Please…
They are preaching a false doctrine that results in abuse of believers. Many so abused then leave the faith. Many of these are charlatans, others narcissists, but all seek personal aggrandizement and teach falsehoods. And unless someone stands up, becomes a Berean and points out the falsehoods, many will be led astray.
Sam: “This I know. Thousands of people know Jesus Christ in a personal way because the leaders of these ministries stepped forward when God called them.”
Really? And you ‘know this’ how? Because the ‘leaders of these ministries’ are constantly talking about their numbers? How many ‘decisions’ they had on a certain day, etc., etc.?
TedS
Good comment at 10:11AM. Besides, this is super bad theology for a Calvinist. I am not one but I have studied it so I could pretend to be one if so needed. 🙂 In their system, it is God who does the electing and Gos who is doing the regenerating. It has nothing to do with anybody else since, if it was, then man is assistiing in God’s regeneration.
Here is the question to ask. If God in His power, regenerates all with no assistance, then, if these people had not stepped forward, (yes they would be sinful but let’s pass on that for a minute) those people would still be saved. After all, God has elected them. Not one of these guys can count numbers. It is all God’s numbers and it has zilch to do with them.
“An Attorney” With your argument I understand you to be saying that Paul’s statement doesn’t apply here? Do I understand you correctly?
TedS – I don’t know of thousands… point taken. It is an assumption. I know of a single family that has been radically been transformed in the Seattle area through this church. I assume it’s not the only one given that 15,000 people attend Mars Hill Services on a given weekend. I shall be more careful in the future.
dee – not a Calvinist… I am a guy seeking to serve Christ. I did not go to seminary. My theology is all over the place with holes all over it but I can’t see how this forum is fulfilling a scriptural approach to dealing with these issues.
Ephesians 4:29.
“Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.”
There is significant resentment and even hatred of these men. Even if you don’t like them or resent them were called to love our enemies. (I assume, i need to be careful with these assumptions, that this is how the majority of the forum posters feel about these men)
Matthew 5:44
“But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you”
Proverbs 15:1
A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.
The forum definitely represents your view points in a way that is very ineffective. Many of you may have valid points but the anger and hatred is so strong that your message is lost. For example I came to the site for the first time and all I heard was condemnation and thus my post. Their was nothing here that would point me to the “correct”/”Alternative” teaching (in your humble opinions) it’s just saying the their path is wrong, evil, wicked, abusive. How about a redirect the MacArthur (once again assuming that y’all like him, but I really don’t know) sermon who gives a different view point.
Can you come at it in a constructive way that actually bears some fruit.
Sam, Which of Paul’s statements are you referring to? There is clearly NT instruction for us to be wary of false teachers, including instruction from Paul. There is also the instruction to those who would be teachers that they will be held to a higher standard. But the bottom line is, look at their personal wealth and lifestyle, and compare that to that of the Master Teacher.
The celebrity preachers are preaching a false gospel and many follow them. Eventually they will fall away, for it is not the celebrity pastor who leads people to Christ, but the Holy Spirit.
I for one do not hate them. I do think they are wolves in sheep clothing, who have found being an entertaining speaker to be a lucrative employment that gives them power, wealth and control over people. What they teach is often contrary to the Bible and the teachings of Jesus. They lead people astray into believing that wealth means one is chosen/blessed by God. But look at what Jesus said about wealth. Either what Jesus said is true or what the celebrity pastor says and does is true. I follow Jesus.
Sam @ 1:09am
You said “The forum definitely represents your view points in a way that is very ineffective”.
I beg to disagree, hanging out at TWW has been of infinite use to me being a seeker/searcher.
Dee gave some very good advice in a post over a year ago – she suggested hanging out here for a long time before commenting. I mostly find there’s a wealth of wisdom and maturity in those commenting. Of course there’s exceptions, there is in every community.
Sam, people here come from all different backgrounds and beliefs. They are given an opportunity to express that. I find that there’s a clear ethos and direction from Deb and Dee – they have firm foundations and have a heart for those who have been abused (including rescue dogs!). Some people need a place to bring that to.
Also – you may have visited here at a time when it’s quite intense, given the SBC lawsuit. It’s a big deal and though there’s no ‘normal’, it’s probably not the usual atmosphere? Not sure, but there’s my two cents.
Sam
So, we are going to play dueling Bible verses now? Warning, the Bible can be made to say just about anything you want.
“From the least to the greatest all are greedy for gain; prophets and priests alike, all practice deceit.They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious.“Peace, peace,” they say,when there is no peace.Are they ashamed of their detestable conduct?No, they have no shame at all they do not even know how to blush.” Jer 8:10-12.
Then, need I repeat Jesus’ words to the Pharisees who were burdening God’s people with their rules? “Snakes, Whitewahed tombs. etc”There seems to be a time for confronting eaders with harsh words. And when these current day leaders are involved in things like alleged pedophile coverups, etc. I think it might be OK to get a tad irritated, don’t you?
Now, as for your “bears some fruit”-exactly to which fruit are you referring? We all have our pet fruits so I need to know which ones are yours. Let me give you one example and then I am going to stop playing your fruit game. I had a wonderful visit with a long time reader last week. She said that this blog has helped her to feel free-free from the legalistic rantings of controlling pastors.She understands grace. You, I suspect, will not think that is fruit since it doesn’t fit your being “nice” category.
Let me share with you a big picture of the Scripture. I believe that this blog, in some small way, has helped those deeply wounded by the SGM mess to gather courage to leave SGM and/or possible to confront SGM as is happening now. It has helped those wounded to know that they are not alone. God allowed big time confrontation. Nathan confronted David for his sins with Bathsheba. You know, it was a rather ugly situation. Maybe he should have shared a nice sermon with him instead?
As for hatred, you have no idea what is in the hearts of the people who comment here unless you have been given a direct revelation from God. Just as I have no idea what is iin your heart. I respond to what you say. Judging your “feelings” is above my pay grade. Perhaps you should do the same and stick to the knitting instead of divining “feelings.”
People who have been hurt and told to shut up need a place to express their thoughts and feelings and, unlike within their pervious churches, be accepted and loved. BTW, there is a reason to be angry when your 3 year old kid has been molested by a church member and then told to forgive their pedophile and not report it as has been alleged, and pretty well documented, in this current situation. There is a time for anger. There is a time for anger when a woman is told to return to her abusive husband.
As for MacArthur, why don’t you talk to Julie Anne Smith of BGBC Survivors who was sued by her pastor. MacArthur’s church gave comfort to the suing pastor who, by the way, lost big time.
The Bible is full of stories of the sins of the leaders. These were not kept quiet. They were placed in the Bible for all of us to study throughout the ages. If God has no problem with revealing the serious sins of his people, why should we? I think it is because we like to present a face of nice Christians who could do no more wrong than overeat at a church potluck.-one of the nice sins.
Finally, I happen to think we are being “constructive.” I think that you could be more constructuve if you would take a larger picture of the Biblical narrative and apply it to the specific situations with which we deal. Remember, we are dealing with some terrible situations at this blog. Before you get to lecturing us on being nice, think about the pain of those deeply hurt. And don’t lecture them on forgiving their enemies. People come to that in their own good time as they wrestle with God and try to make sense of what has happened.
I certainly hope that you do not glibly throw out pet Bible verses when confronted with the pain and suffering of you brothers and sisters. You need to spend a bit more time understanding the pain of those who have been hurt. Stick around here. You might learn something.
Dee and Sam; it seems to me that you both approach an important topic from different sides and have something necessary to contribute. I’m wary of how close that sounds to the execrably smug and pretentious “there, there, you’re both right”. So I’ve thought long and hard about how to draft this, and I may still not have done it well. I can only ask for your gracious indulgence on that.
There’s something uniquely damaging about spiritual abuse. Permit me to quote two scriptures, from Psalm 55 and Proverbs 25. I don’t claim that they prove something on their own, but I do believe they help describe the aftermath of abusive spiritual leadership.
The believer can expect to have troubles in “the world”. But if the place where we seek God together is toxic and destructive, where is one supposed to go?
And the one from Proverbs:
The person who has submitted to abusive and ungodly leadership has invariably been tricked into surrendering the control of his spirit to a leadership hierarchy that does not truly love or respect him. This leaves the heart unguarded and extremely vulnerable to attack. Whoever’s fault that was, the damage is done, and repairing it is often too great a burden to carry without the right kind of help. (Building up others according to their needs, if I may presume to re-use Ephesians 4:29.)
Now, of course, the abused believer needs to forgive in order for this repairing of damage to happen. Thing is… most people who’ve been significantly hurt by leadership have indeed tried very hard to discuss and resolve the issue with the leaders. And the leaders have invariably said, you’re the problem; you sort it out, and if you’re upset about that, well, you’re rebellious and bitter, and you need to sort that out too. In other words, they have demanded forgiveness, such that the victim cannot easily forgive them without feeling that he is, still, being controlled. I claimed above that spiritual abuse is uniquely damaging: here’s why. The ungodly shepherd not only inflicts damage, but poisons the very means God has given to repair that damage.
To “forgive”, in both English and NT Greek, means to send out or release, and is an act of judgement. Judgement requires authority – the very thing that is stripped from the believer by abusive leadership. Regaining that authority, and seeing the leaders as peers (“a man like myself”, in the verse from Psalm 55 above) whom one actually has the power to forgive, can be a messy process involving a lot of anger on the way. And yes, sometimes bitterness; that’s ungodly, true, but that’s all the more reason not to hide it. And it needs someone to stand alongside those who once were powerless and oppressed, and openly defend them.
In doing this, Dee and Debs are taking a necessary risk. They risk, for instance, becoming a “heresy-spotter site” (just like the ones we’ve all seen; “everyonesdeceivedbutme.org”, accusing as an end in itself, and filled with pride and egotism). They risk hating the sinner as much as the sin, and stoking the very bitterness they want to heal. But I believe it’s a necessary risk. Dee/Debs – I trust you’re aware of these, and other risks. And I can’t honestly say my limited contributions to TWW have done all they could to “spur one another on to good deeds”. Sam – likewise, given that I’m someone with an interest in the topic of ungodly leadership, I appreciate the fact that you’re willing to post what you did and risk disapproval. Faithful are the wounds of a friend, and if you call Jesus “King”, then I take you to be such.
Sorry that was so long… best I could do…
Nick
I believe that I am a well rounded evangelical who does not see competing secondary doctrine as show stoppers. I am as willing to worship with a pedopbaptist as with a believer’s type of baptist. I can accept and worship with those who believe in Calvinism as well as those who are Armianist and everything in between. I accept those who believe in YEC even though I do not. I am comfortable in all kinds of services and enjoy going to different denominations.
The problem with this is that most of those who believe strongly in secondary differences will assume that I am close to being heretical and would not worship with me. They would call me unbiblical and unscriptural.
As for heresy, I stick to the weirdness-Piper’s muscular women, Driscoll’s pornovision and Mahaney’s “head Apostle schtick.” I also stick to outrageous behaviors-I think you might be hard pressed to overlook pedophilia and pastors makinglots of bank.
Be undeceived just like me? Hmm, what is just like me?
Dee- thanks for ripping into me. I don’t mean to under value pain caused by poor leadership. I do understand pain… it was not a child in my case, which would have been much worse.. but I too have spent months crying in a closet over things that should not happen. I had the opportunity to experience God’s grace and healing power in my life. It took 5 years of relentlessly fighting the urge of allowing the hurts to define who I am. This is a process. I get it..
and I am not saying get over it… because you don’t… I know this first hand. 🙂
I don’t wish too battle over biblical references. I was hoping to make a difference, rather then a point. I thought the verses I used were in context and appropriate for what I was trying to say. The truth is that they infuriated you. Clearly showing they came across as making a point rather then a difference. If I came across as self righteous… I apologize.
I am not a MacArthur fan. in fact I couldn’t even tell you what he stands for. I saw someone else reference it and everyone had seemed to agree with it. I figured he was a reference many of you agreed with.
God Bless as you all work through your struggles and pains. May he prove to be the healer of all hurts. May through the healing process may you draw near to him.
“The believer can expect to have troubles in “the world”. But if the place where we seek God together is toxic and destructive, where is one supposed to go”
This is exactly it, Nick. And why is it considered not “nice” to say so?
“They risk hating the sinner as much as the sin, and stoking the very bitterness they want to heal. But I believe it’s a necessary risk. Dee/Debs – I trust you’re aware of these, and other risks.”
This would mean that no one can point out heinous sin of those who protect pedophiles, etc, without risking sinning? It is not a sin to be angry at those who do not value children and seek to protect them. If it does not make us angry at them, we might have a bigger problem: A cold heart.
I just do not get this at all. If anything, after analyzing all the charlatans, what they do and teach, they become something totally different from a celebrity pastor. They become pitiful because they cannot see as they are blind guides who lead others astray and one quakes for them when they think of what might happen because of it.
Arce – I was refrenceing Philippians 1:18. I wasn’t saying he was wrong. i was just trying to understand if he felt that the circumstance he spoke of trumped what paul was saying…
Arce – I was referencing Philippians 1:18 in a previous post.
Sam
If you keep the email address you provide with your comments the same each time you’ll not keep getting your comments moderated. As long as you keep changing it you show up as a first time commentator and first time commentators are always moderated.
-GuyBehindtheCurtain
oops… thanks for the heads up. switched computers and don’t use this account much guess i typed it wrong..
Testing…
Testing again…
Nope, my attempts at highlighted text didn’t work. Never mind. Meanwhile, back at the ranch…
Dee – I hope you’ll appreciate this line-by-line engagement (for want of a better opposite of “rebuttal”, which this isn’t 🙂 ). I’ll put your words in bold.
Nick Yo!
I believe that I am a well rounded I don’t know you well, of course, but I think the evidence is in your favour evangelical [theatrical booing] who does not see competing secondary doctrine as show stoppers. Amen to that. I am as willing to worship with a pedopbaptist as with a believer’s type of baptist. Check. I can accept and worship with those who believe in Calvinism as well as those who are Armianist and everything in between. Check. I accept those who believe in YEC even though I do not. Check. I am comfortable in all kinds of services and enjoy going to different denominations. Check. May your tribe increase, too. (I don’t mind evangelicals, btw, as long as they’re well-rounded.)
The problem with this is that most of those who believe strongly in secondary differences will assume that I am close to being heretical and would not worship with me. High five! They would call me unbiblical and unscriptural. Yes, probably. Jesus got that a lot, as you know, so I’m guessing you consider it an honour? (Or “an honor”.)
As for heresy, I stick to the weirdness-Piper’s muscular women, Hmm… that was weird, wasn’t it? Driscoll’s pornovision and his bragging about the heap of bodies behind “his” bus. A Godly (TM) leader might say that, but a godly one never would. and Mahaney’s “head Apostle schtick.” Check, and more broadly, the teaching that a church eldership should rule over [katexousia] the flock when Jesus pointedly forbade it. I also stick to outrageous behaviors-I think you might be hard pressed to overlook pedophilia and pastors making lots of bank. Have you come across this (translated) quote from Jerome? A clergyman who engages in business, and who rises from poverty to wealth, and from obscurity to a high position, avoid as you would the plague. For “evil communications corrupt good manners.” You despise gold; he loves it. You spurn wealth; he eagerly pursues it. You love silence, meekness, privacy; he takes delight in talking and effrontery, in squares, and streets, and apothecaries’ shops. What unity of feeling can there be where there is so wide a divergency of manners? The next paragraph isn’t so good, but hey.
Be undeceived just like me? Hmm, what is just like me? I too am working on that one.
Anon1 – this is a good question. I’ll try and explain better.
You wrote:
I agree: it is not a sin to be angry at sin, and Jesus himself issued stern warnings about causing little ones to stumble. And when he saw the money changers in the temple commercialising worship and fleecing the poor, he didn’t [bee-in-bonnet alert] gently create a gentle and safe place in which those involved in this trade could gently be helped to gently think about their actions in a gentle way that was so powerful and yet so beautiful and gentle. And you’re right about the “cold heart” thing (equally, it might just be a cowardly heart).
But yes, whenever I point out someone else’s sin, I risk sinning myself. I think that’s what Paul was on about when he wrote Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted. If I think Driscoll is hypocritical for brushing aside his own “lack of humility” whilst lamenting Meyer and Petrie’s so-called “pride” and announcing his intention to make brutal examples of them… I may be right, but I may also be hypocritical about my own sin. What Paul is saying is: do this. It isn’t completely safe – but do it.
Look at it this way. Supposing your brother’s a fireman who, in the course of his job, is about to enter a burning building to rescue someone who’s trapped and overcome by smoke. Your brother has taken what precautions he can (breathing apparatus, fire-resistant clothing, his training, etc), but he will still risk his own safety. Firefighters do get hurt. You wouldn’t think he was foolish for this; on the contrary, you’d be proud of him. But you’d probably still say, “be careful in there”.
Am I making sense here?
@ Sam – “Can you come at it in a constructive way that actually bears some fruit.”
Because of the nature of the internet, the fruit from TWW obviously can’t be quantified but I think you would be astonished to know the number of people around the world who have been deeply blessed through TWW. To me Isaiah 61:1-4 perfectly sums up what Christ is doing in this community through Dee and Deb and many others who comment here.
Nick
We have put the quote from jerome at the top of several posts-most notably when we write about Ed Young Jr.
As for evangelical-I do not know any other way to describe myself in a term that many would recognize. I do share my faith and hope to see others come to a knowledge of Jesus. However, if you could convince me that such a term is becoming tainted with too many other associations then I will stop doing so.
MM
TWW is not Dee and Deb. TWW is a sum of all who come here and we are grateful that you do.
Anon1
Bingo! “This would mean that no one can point out heinous sin of those who protect pedophiles, etc, without risking sinning?”
Sam
The Bible verses did not “infuriate ” me. I have been trying to make a consistent point on this blog that there are Bible verses that are commonly pulled out to “prove” a point. There are two ways to view such verse They are entities unto themselves or they are to be contextualized. As Howard Hendricks said : there are three things to emphasize in looking at Bible verses: context, context and context!
About 15 years ago, I stepped back from the little picture of the Bible and started to view it as a larger narrative. It is, for me, far more interesting to see how indiviudal verses fit inot the big picture. It gives them context. One must temper the “no gossip” verses with the fact that the Bible itself is a big gossip fest of revelations of failings of groups and individuals. Think of it-Peter’s denial is read over and over again every Easter! Yet we learn from his error.
Here is the issue for me. There is a big difference in talking about pedophilia cover up and saying that Matilda spends her days at spas. One benefits the church. The other is silly gossip although I might want to know why she likes it so much!
Dee – when I said “theatrical booing” I was more thinking of a theatrical pantomime than anything! (Not sure whether “pantomime” means much in the US; just in case it doesn’t, I should explain that a pantomime is a Christmas family-oriented stage show, generally with songs and always humorous, and in which the Bad Guy is invariably played by a very popular actor or celebrity. So although the audience is required to “boo” him, nobody actually means it.) I.e., I don’t really have a problem with the label “evangelical”. Besides, should it become a hindrance rather than a help in what you’re doing, you’ll probably know it before I do.
I don’t use it of myself, partly because it carries somewhat negative connotations to non-Christians here in the UK, and partly because I want to emphasise a different aspect of my relationship with God when I meet other believers. I don’t know any reason why you shouldn’t use it, though!
Nick
This part if very important to me. “don’t use it of myself, partly because it carries somewhat negative connotations to non-Christians here in the UK,” I would not call myself one in the UK,knowing that. What do you call yourself besides Nick in terms of your faith, if you don’t mind me asking?
Dee – I certainly don’t mind you asking, but it’s kind of a long story. To avoid clogging the thread with autobiographical chaff, therefore, I’ll email a response (I was going to email the two of you anyway, so this might just precipitate some action on that score!).