If You’re Not Attending ‘True Woman’ Consider ‘Just Give Me Jesus’

"True womanhood is a distinctive calling of God to display the glory of His Son in ways that would not be displayed if there were no womanhood."

John Piper

European Tapestry

Have you heard of the True Woman 2012 conference?  It is a three-day event that begins tomorrow, September 20, in Indianapolis.  The first True Woman conference took place on October 11, 2008 in Chicago with John Piper serving as keynote speaker.  According to the True Woman website

"The seeds for this movement actually began taking shape in Nancy Leigh DeMoss' heart eleven years earlier. As she read about the historical development of secular and religious feminism in Mary Kassian's book, The Feminist Mistake, her spirit was exercised within her. When she realized the powerful lies that had been foisted on a whole generation of women, the pervasiveness of feminist thinking in our whole culture, and the extent to which Christian women have bought into the whole philosophy, she began to ask:

If a handful of women have succeeded by their writings and influence in destroying and brainwashing an entire generation with their godless philosophies, what could God do with a handful of women who were determined to 'reclaim surrendered ground'? "

As our loyal readers know, we have focused on Mary Kassian in a number of posts (here, here, here, here, and here).  Perhaps you have heard of Kassian's colleague Nancy Leigh DeMoss on her radio program Revive Our Hearts, which airs on various Christian stations.  What follows is a brief bio:

"Nancy Leigh DeMoss is a mentor and "spiritual mother" to hundreds of thousands of women who have read her best-selling books and who listen to her two daily radio programs, Revive Our Hearts and Seeking Him. She communicates a love for the Lord and the Word that is infectious!"

Nancy Leigh DeMoss is the daughter of Arthur S. DeMoss, who founded National Liberty Corporation, a life insurance company that marketed policies through TV ads featuring Art Linkletter.  Arthur DeMoss died in 1979 at the age of 53.  A large portion of his estate funded the Arthur S. DeMoss Foundation, which supports various Christian causes.   The widow of Arthur DeMoss purportedly lives in Palm Beach, Florida (link).

Interestingly, Nancy Leigh DeMoss has never been married, and Mary Kassian and her husband have raised only sons.  Dee and I find it rather odd that these two women presume to instruct young ladies like our own daughters about what they call 'true womanhood'. 

One of the primary objectives of the True Woman conference is to get attendees to sign the True Woman Manifesto.  Take a look…

If the True Woman Manifesto sounds eerily famiiar, perhaps it's because it is similar to another topic we have discussed here at TWW – The Resolution for Women.  You may remember that Priscilla Shirer wrote a book called The Resolution for Women, which complements the book written by the Kendrick brothers called The Resolution for Men.  Both books are tied to the movie Courageous.  Surprise, surprise!  Priscilla Shirer, the daughter of Tony Evans, is one of the speakers at True Woman 2012.   Other speakers include Joni Eareckson Tada, Janet Parshall, Elyse Fitzpatrick and a few others.

According to the website, it looks like those wanting to attend can still register ($159 for individuals and $139 for students).  Remember, that cost does not include travel, lodging, and meals. 

Speaking of students, undergraduates and graduate students can earn credit by attending the True Woman conference.  It seems that a partnership is being established between Revive Our Hearts and The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.  Here are the details for getting college credit:  

If you are an undergraduate or graduate student at any school, you have the opportunity to earn three hours of transferable credit from SBTS by attending True Woman ’12. All you need to do is:

   1.   Sign up for the SBTS class
   2.   Sign up for the True Woman ’12 Conference
   3.   Complete the additional class work required, which includes reading and writing a reflection paper.

Since Southern Seminary is relatively close (about 100 miles away), we would expect quite a few female students to attend True Woman 2012.

According to the True Woman website, "limited scholarship funds are available if you are a Senior Pastor’s wife."  Why not offer scholarships to moms with a quiverfull instead of senior pastors' wives (whose husbands likely make a decent living)?  Could there be a not so hidden agenda for giving scholarships to senior pastors' wives?  They will go back to their congregations and promote the movement and the materials that are being promoted at the conference.

Frankly, Dee and I believe the True Woman Movement is the last hurrah.  We highly doubt that the next generation by and large will find the ideas touted by this movement appealing.  For example, who in the world would buy into the practice at John Piper's church that women are not allowed to read scripture or pray before the congregation?  On a personal note, if either of my daughters attended this conference and signed the True Woman Manifesto, I would be deeply disappointed.  

By the grace of God, there is an alternative to the True Woman 2012 Conference.  Anne Graham Lotz will be holding her Just Give Me Jesus event in Augusta, Georgia this Friday and Saturday.  It is a life-changing revival for women, and I had the pleasure of attending this event in Raleigh ten years ago.  Admission is free and neither tickets nor registration are required.  Here is an introduction:

Christianity Today featured an article on Anne Graham Lotz several years ago, which I encourage you to read.  Here is an interesting excerpt:

"The most quoted descriptor of her gift came from her father, who called her 'the best preacher in the family.' "

I agree with Anne's father, Billy Graham, that she is a tremendous preacher of the Word of God.

For those who cannot attend this FREE event, there will be a live simulcast which I plan to enjoy!  (FYI – True Woman 2012 is also live streaming). 

I had the distinct privilege of being in the same congregation with Anne Graham Lotz for three years, and I have tremendous respect for her.  She delivered a powerful message at a Christmas luncheon I attended at our church in 2004.  I wrote about my experience at that church in this post.  I have the utmost respect for Anne, and I consider her to be a true woman of God.  She is the real deal, and I pray that my daughters will model their lives after her and not the women pushing the 'True Woman' agenda.

Here is Fernando Ortega singing the theme of Anne Graham Lotz's upcoming event.

Lydia's Corner:   Exodus 13:17-15:18   Matthew 21:23-46   Psalm 26:1-12   Proverbs 6:16-19


If You’re Not Attending ‘True Woman’ Consider ‘Just Give Me Jesus’ — 74 Comments

  1. I think you’re right about the temporary nature of movements like this. I am currently going to a very conservative seminary. Half of my classmates are women. Most of them are pastors. Of the women who are pastors, at least half are pastors in their own right and not wives of (at a very conservative estimate.) I suspect it will be like law — the more women there were in school, the more women there were on the bench.

  2. Oh, for freaking crying out loud! I have not been destroyed and brainwashed by a ‘godless philosophy’ just because I consider women equal to men. Where do women like Nancy DeMoss get off denigrating 51% of the world’s population? And ‘reclaim surrendered ground’? What ‘surrendered ground’? I don’t see any. I don’t consider the ability to vote, to work, to get an education, to make decisions about how I live my life to be ‘surrendered ground’, it’s gained opportunity.

    Ok, I’m going to stop now before I get too ranty.

  3. Two brief comments:

    Piper is the master of doubleplusduckspeak. I’ve not read anything that is as circular as the quote you posted.

    And, “her spirit was exercised within her”? Did it lift weights or run on a treadmill? Why do they have to use such archaic and oblique language? Why can’t they just say, “She was stirred” or “she thought hard” or “she became convinced”. There has to be some modern, clear way of stating how she felt.


  4. Tikatu,

    I included that True Woman Manifesto video with Piper’s doublespeak in the first Mary Kassian post, and here’s one of my favorite comments by Sergius Martin George:

    SMG wrote:

    “Hate to pick on John Piper in two consecutive threads, but could we just rewind and consider his voice-over intro at the beginning of the video?

    True womanhood is a distinctive calling of God to display the glory of his son in ways that would not be displayed if there were no womanhood.

    Thank you, Dr. Piper.

    And remember: wherever you go, there you are.”


  5. “Her spirit was exercised within her.”

    BTW: Does that $159 include a copy of “Real Marriage” for all attendees?

  6. Some comic relief for those incensed by all this gender nonsense:

    Seems like singer Bruno Mars is also talking about what it’s like to be a man. Perhaps he, like John Piper, has eight year olds running up to him, asking him that question 😉

    I’d pay good money to see John Piper put together a similar video 🙂


  7. Is there currently a trend in many Christian circles in which you have to sign a paper in order to show that you're committed to something?

    While I understand that signing something may be necessary, especially when there are legal implications that require a written proof (job or service contracts, mortgages), I don't think that many of these are the same situations. Therefore, I can't understand why some put so much emphasis on making people sign something… Are your "yes" and "no" not enough?

    And if you are asking people to sign on the dotted line within the context of a conference promoting those things, like the True Women Manifesto… don't you think that many will sign due to the emotional influence the meeting had on them or peer pressure, rather than because they completely agree with it? Just asking.

  8. Can I just say that I am sick of Christian youtube videos with illustrative text? Enough already!

  9. @ Eagle:

    “Porn actor Ron Jeremy teaching a marriage class”

    That might be more real than you think. Didn’t he already hook up with XXX Church (the parachurch ministry that brought us Wally the Wiener and Pete the Porno Puppet)?

  10. I also thought “her spirit was exercised within her” was odd. They’re probably trying sound like a reincarnation of the Puritans again.

  11. So let me get this straight. Besides the fact that Piper the man is speaking at the women-only women’s conference (which is amusing in and of itself):

    1. Piper has said that women should endure physical abuse (a CRIME known as battery) for one night. (See Romans 13 for the proper response – to ensure her loser husband is punished by the authorities)
    2. Piper has said (granted, obliquely) that all women should submit to all men in some way via the infamous directions story. (See Galatians 3:28 for the right answer)
    3. Piper is starting to hang out with neo-Confederate patriarchal Federal Vision-maybe-heretic Doug Wilson. (So many things wrong.)

    That’s an ugly picture right there.

  12. Addendum:

    4. Piper forbids women from reading aloud in his church (despite Paul’s explicit command that they can pray and prophesy in worship).

  13. Hester,

    It appears that only women will be speaking at the 2012 "True Woman" conference.  However, men have spoken at these bi-annual events.  In 2010 these three men addressed the female attendees:

    Voddie Baucham

    Crawford Lorrits

    James MacDonald

    John Piper has only spoken at the first one in 2008.

    Yes, why are men speaking at these conferences designed FOR WOMEN ONLY?

  14. All this stuff makes me so thankful for a pastor who encourages both men and women to take the microphone on a Sunday morning to read from the Word or share something encouraging. His wife grabbed the mic last week to encourage women *and* men to attend the Anne Graham Lotz simulcast this weekend. That makes me happy.

  15. Is there currently a trend in many Christian circles in which you have to sign a paper in order to show that you’re committed to something?

    Martin S.,

    I’ve seen this kind of thing off and on for the last 30 years, which is how long I’ve been involved in evangelical Christianity. It seemed to be more popular in some quadrants than others. I’ve got it associated in my head with Charismatic type teaching, which also has an emphasis on curses that are supposed to be a plague on many Christians, generational curses and the like. I was taught where I was that since Christ became a curse for us this was not actually possible. I have no idea if the covenant thing and the curse thing are directly related. But because of what I was taught I generally avoided the works that emphasized either and would never sign the covenant where ever it was found.

    I didn’t see it again for a long time after that but that may be because I didn’t go where I was likely to encounter it. The next time I did see it was in Purpose Driven Life where there is this same covenant deal between the introduction and chapter 1. You are supposed to agree to it and sign it before proceeding through the book. Needless to say, I didn’t do that, nor did I finish the book.

    But that this sort of thing has become all the rage everywhere does seem sort of sudden. I’m not sure if or how much Warren might have influenced this. I do know that Warren studied under ubber Charismatic C. Peter Wagner at Fuller and that the Kendrick brothers, or at least Stephen, is a big Purpose Driven fan (PDL is the first book after the Bible he would recommend people read), and they do seem to be a major driving force, especially with the Resolutions.

  16. The only Gospel I see the SBC, Piper, et. al. preaching is a Gospel of Oppression. As far as they’re concerned, women’s ONLY functions are to bear children and serve men, beyond that, they have no other value. It’s the same warped and twisted mindset that gave us the biblical defense of slavery. In their quest for power over others, they believe in oppression. Love, the Golden Rule and all that be damned.

  17. I think that all of these women are the real deal.

    I really appreciate Anne Graham Lotz. But I can’t stand her speaking style. That is just a preference issue, however.

    Arthur S. Demoss and his family have been a great blessing to the kingdom. It is sad that he died at such an early age.

    I, too, disagree with the practice of not allowing women to pray or read scripture before the congregation. We do not have women elders, but I believe we would actually hurt our position, rather than help it, if we tried to extend that position to practices that the Scripture and church practice do not take us.

    I suspect that we will continue to see a mix of practices with regard to gender until the end of time.

  18. Deb –

    No men speaking at the “all women” conference this year? TWW better contact them quicky and offer online “covering documentation” . . . Good grief! What are they thinking?!

  19. I don’t know.

    I think that if the commandment against coveting, that says “don’t covet your neighbor’s wife,” is thought to apply to women not coveting their neighbors’ husbands, then an elder being the husband of one wife ought to apply to an elder being the wife of one husband. If I can’t be an elder, then I am off the hook for the Ten Commandments and everything else too.

    I’ve asked in different venues what in the world real means when it comes to real men, real manliness, etc. What makes a man a real man, that wouldn’t be appropriate for women as well? Real women never have to show courage? OTOH, real men never have to nurture? Is there any characteristic that a real man or a real woman ought to exhibit, that can’t be covered by “maturity” or “responsibility” or “acting like a Christian”? I’ve not really gotten an answer.

  20. I just checked out the syllabus for the credited class you can take connected to the conference. It is a womanhood class taught by a man (no surprise there), and the required reading seems to include all books with the word feminism in the title. The authors are Grudem, Duncan, Piper, Carolyn Mahaney, and Kassian. Whoever takes this class will be thoroughly indoctrinated into the one “biblical” view of womanhood for sure.

  21. Good grief! Could they please be a little more specific about how feminism has ruined a whole generation of women? (I do know the answer.)

    And, which generation of women is this addressing? I’m in my 40’s, and I would assume that it’s my generation that they’re addressing. How have I been ruined? I grew up being told that I can be whatever I want to be. That must be what ruined me! Or maybe it’s the fact that I can have an opinion and think and speak my mind is what has ruined me. Add to it that I have a husband who supports me in whatever decision I make. Oh, how I have to confess to my ruining! Would they make my parents or husband confess to their part of my ruining?

    My son and I are studying Woodrow Wilson’s presidency and World War I. When he learned that it was during this time that the 19th amendment was added to give women the right to vote, his response was, “that’s great!” Bless my son! Would these women today give up their right to vote? No! But, would they ever admit that the women who fought hard for our right to vote were feminists and Christians? I doubt it. How could the two ever work hand-in-hand?

  22. Susan B. Anthony:

    Ignoring opposition and abuse, Anthony traveled, lectured, and canvassed across the nation for the vote. She also campaigned for the abolition of slavery, the right for women to own their own property and retain their earnings, and she advocated for women’s labor organizations. In 1900, Anthony persuaded the University of Rochester to admit women.

    Alice Stokes Paul

    January 11, 1885 – July 9, 1977) was an American suffragist and activist. Along with Lucy Burns and others, she led a successful campaign for women’s suffrage that resulted in the passage of the Nineteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution in 1920.

  23. Eagle – Thanks for the info. I’ll have to look into it. My son’s 11, so he may not find it too exciting, but I’m sure he would like to know the reasons behind the opposition.

    I’m sure that this group would say that I’m a part of ruining the next generation of men. My son has a friend in the neighborhood who is from Saudi Arabia. They have had some good conversations together about differences in life in the U.S. and there. My son once told him that he thought women should have the same rights as men. His friend replied with, “Meh.” He doesn’t understand his point of view, but he’s learning.

    Wait a minute! I see a good comparison there! Yes, I just went there.

    Eagle, I haven’t heard an update on how you’re doing. I hope that you are well and healing quickly.

  24. Deb asked: “Yes, why are men speaking at these conferences designed FOR WOMEN ONLY?”

    It is odd. For one thing, if you go from the assumption that there are gender roles in the Bible, one of the easiest ones to defend is that telling women:
    … to submit/ to keep house/ to love their children/ to be chaste
    … is an older woman role – not a man role! (See Titus 2:4-5)Why do comp men usurp woman’s sphere of authority roles?
    (Incase you do not know, I am not a supporter of gender roles. But by the same hermeneutic they get certain authorative male roles, you can get that teaching these things to women is not a male role.)

  25. My family and I just walked away, after 9 long years, from a church that is big-time into the “True Woman” movement (and also listed as an official “Gospel Coalition” church). We watched a vibrant community of believers, young and old, narrow in over the years to an authoritarian and complementarian set of beliefs. The pastor (ruling elder) slowly did away with balanced leadership, setting in place co-elders who subscribed fully to his viewpoints. The turning point for me (and for my husband) was when I declined the church’s offer of a scholarship to attend their mini “True Woman” retreat (playing videos of the previous year’s True Woman conf. and listening to our pastor preach). I was immediately shunned by the elder’s wives (who were all my age, and who I considered friends). When I told them that I would have a hard time sitting under teaching I that I knew I didn’t agree with, and that I certainly wouldn’t be signing the Manifestos they had prepared, I was told by an elder’s wife that I was in sin. My sin? Not submitting to and trusting that the leadership of our church knew what was best for me to hear. I was, according to them, “not open to the workings of the Holy Spirit” (as we know…he can only work during emotional retreats/conferences/when men are teaching..etc.)
    Well, the Holy Spirit shockingly did NOT abandon me! Rather, he has led my family and I to a wonderful church home, returning to the denomination I was raised in. And you know what was a big factor in me returning to confessional Lutheranism? The pastor took my phone calls, met with me, emailed me,and was HAPPY to talk intelligently with me about doctrine and all things spiritual. With me! No asking to speak to my husband, no awkward inquiries if I had checked with my husband before speaking to him. I was truly treated as a co-heir in Christ and as a sister, and this greatly impressed both my egalitarian husband and I.
    I guess I just needed to get that out. For me, the True Woman movement was divisive, and brings back hurtful memories.

  26. Just perused the so-called “True Woman Manifesto” and it’s Biblical citations that supposedly justify it. As usual with this ‘women as subordinates’ crowd, it cites Genesis 2:18 as support:

    “Then the Lord God said, ‘It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper as his partner.’

    Using this verse to support the belief that women are given a subordinate role is one of the most dishonest interpretations of the Bible. Ever. In their world, the word “helper” means that God appointed women to subservient role, conveniently ignoring the word PARTNER. Moreover, the Hebrew word translated “helper” is ‘ezer’. Note that in most of the instances where that word is used it refers to God, meaning God is a “helper” in these cases. Here are just a few:

    • and the other was named Eliezer, for he said, “My father’s God was my helper; he saved me from the sword of Pharaoh.” (Exodus 18:4)

    • “There is no one like the God of Jeshurun, who rides on the heavens to help you and on the clouds in his majesty. (Deuteronomy 33:26)

    • Blessed are you, O Israel! Who is like you, a people saved by the LORD? He is your shield and helper and your glorious sword. Your enemies will cower before you, and you will trample down their high places.” (Deuteronomy 33:29)

    • Our soul waits for the LORD; He is our help and our shield. (Psalm 33:20)

    • Yet I am poor and needy; come quickly to me, O God. You are my help and my deliverer; O LORD, do not delay. (Psalm 70:5)

    So if the word “helper” means a subordinate role, then God must be subordinate to men as well (which is what I think some of these people really believe).

  27. On the “exercised spirit” nitpick, it appears the originator of this phrase was St Patrick, who wrote:
    “After I had arrived in Ireland, I found myself pasturing flocks daily, and I prayed a number of times each day. More and more the love and fear of God came to me, and faith grew and my spirit was exercised, until I was praying up to a hundred times every day and in the night nearly as often.”

  28. (dryly) I don't know why but this discussion brought to mind the provocative chapter title in Rosemary Radford Ruether's book "Sexism and God–Talk" – Can a Male Savior Save Women?

    That said, if I had to choose between living within an evangelical culture and living in a Mormon one, I'd take the latter. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't.

    And, yes, Anne Graham Lotz's disaster theology is problematic at best. Of course, that could be because my heart is hardened to respond to appeals like that.

  29. Dave A A, for St. Patrick, that does sound like a spiritual work out. For Ms. DeMoss, not so much, especially when taken in context.

  30. I believe a lot of these movements are bound to implode. There is just too much cult-like behaviour attached to it. As a woman in her 40s who got caught up in the whole patriarchy thing a few years back, it took quite a bit of time & trials to renew my thinking. I find it interesting how I had more in common with another homeschool mom who is a devout Mormon than with fellow Christians back then.
    Focusing on the “proper” role of a woman caused a lot of division in my house, & I know our situation is not unique. I wonder how many marriages take a turn for the worst after these conferences. Sigh.

  31. @Jeff

    I don’t know if you have heard of the NET Bible translation, but it makes note in that part of Genesis that the word commonly translated as “helper” should instead be rendered “companion” as the English helper cannot really convey the full meaning of the Hebrew word, which does not connote any subordination whatsoever.

    I have not found support for any subordinate position of women in any of my studies of the creation account in bible. I find it ironic that the creation account is one of the couple of spots usually pointed to by people of the patriarchic persuasion.

  32. Tikatu,
    I think Paddy had PS 77 in mind:
    3 I remembered God, and was delighted, and was exercised, and my spirit swooned away.
    4 My eyes prevented the watches: I was troubled, and I spoke not.
    5 I thought upon the days of old: and I had in my mind the eternal years.
    6 And I meditated in the night with my own heart: and I was exercised and I swept my spirit.
    (Douay Rheims, based on the Latin’ Paddy’s preferred version.
    If so, he was exercised by his OWN fallen condition. Result: A whole culture evangelized.
    DeMoss was exercised by our “whole culture” and its fallen condition. Result: True Woman conferences.

  33. Jeff,
    I like that someone always points to the proper interpretation of Genesis 2:18 when we get into these discussions, thank you.

  34. Dave AA – keep in mind that those works were translated by people who used such phrases. I’d guess that the choice of wording has more to do with translation and translators than with the originals, in both cases…

  35. Re helper or helpmeet, aka “ezer”.

    So if woman is to be to man as God is to man (relationship described by the same word), then man should submit to woman and be subservient to her and obey her, just as he would God. It’s BIBLICAL!!!!!

  36. An Attorney,
    If it were women with the agenda of female superiority translating the Bible instead of men with the agenda of male superiority then such women would translate the Bible in such a manner. They would also point out that the enmity is between the woman/(and HER seed) and the serpant rather than between the man/(and HIS seed) and the serpant thus making the woman(and her seed) far and above superior to the man. 😉

    But since it has been men with male superiority agendas who have controlled and translated the Bible, they have translated it thus and leaned on other scriptures to ‘prove’ their superiorty and covered over the ones we have mentioned.

  37. That quote by Piper brings up an interesting point. It’s kind of a “duh” statement (I actually laughed out loud while reading it). Grammatically it is structured to imply that he will give a definition of what true womanhood is….but then he never specifies, he just says, “It is what it is.” Undefinable.

    Ironically, that is exactly the point! Women and men do both image God, but it’s in ways undefinable! You don’t make “roles” that we have to stay within to so that we “know” we are imaging God. We just DO, by virtue of existing and being a gender.

    So in a really hilarious way, Piper is making our argument for us.

  38. I agree with most of what you write here and I read your blog regularly. I have one issue, though. If you want to highlight the equality of women and the choices that the feminist movement opened up to us in contrast to the narrow view of what it means to be a woman, then please don’t destroy that valuable message by falling back on the notion that single women or childless women or women without daughters are a subset that are not qualified to comment on such issues. These women do not have distasteful ideas about women and femininity due to their marital status or the gender of their children; it is because of the flawed theology they have been immersed in. I was a high school teacher for sixteen years. For the first fifteen I was single and for all sixteen I was childless. That did not render me incapable of seeking to empower my female students, encourage them to maintain healthy romantic relationships or to love, care for and nurture every child male or female who walked in my classroom. Just as gender should not define us, neither should marital or parental status.

  39. ALWR,

    Thanks so much for your comment and your correction.  I wholeheartedly agree that what we are dealing with here is a flawed theology.  I am praying that Christian women will see it that way.  Those of the female gender are also made in the image of God, and we are called to reflect His love to the world.  I get so frustrated when my gender attempts to put up road blocks that can hinder us from accomplishing God’s will for our lives.

  40. RE: Hester on Thu Sep 20, 2012 at 07:23 AM,
    “…despite Paul’s explicit command that they can pray and prophesy in worship…”

    Are the Pauline texts to be read and construed as explicit commands that must be obeyed in a rigidly deterministic sense? I no longer believe so because it transforms Paul into a sort of new Moses for the Gentiles. What follows naturally then is a host of new rules, regulations, and an army of priests, preachers, and theologians needed to interpret them.

    The Bible is a sublime document for the ages, but I also believe that if it is not tempered with reason and common sense, it can become the source of untold human misery & suffering.

  41. At the first ‘True Womanhood’ conference they were after 1 million signatures for the manifesto, and they loved to tout that. They didn’t get anywhere close to it, and that part of the ‘promotion’ was silenced.

    Here we are how many years after, and you have to wonder how much closer they are to that million. They never bring it up anymore, so it can’t be that close.

    Personally? I think the female mouthpieces, and the men that support them? They want the cash and kudos from their programs, websites, books, lectures and the rest.

    Scholarships for Senior Pastor wives? They would be a great source of promotion, and future income and prestige. It’s a win – win.

    Dare I say it’s sad that people wish to whore themselves out, and use God as a tool in the process.

    It just breaks my heart.

  42. “Q: Who’s to blame for a pastor’s fall from grace?
    A: His fat, lazy wife.”

    Jeebuz. Mark Driscoll has a frightening obsession with sex – comments like this, books on sex, sermons on sex, sexual innuendos everywhere, virtually all degrading to women (whose major role seems to be that of a sex slave in Dricoll’s perverted world). It never ceases to amaze me how many people will follow a nutbar. I do fear for the human race.

  43. Jeff,

    Hang on…  Dee’s putting the finishing touches on her post chastising Driscoll for his latest ‘biblical’ blunder.

  44. Eagle, Russ Moore was teachng that about creamtion 6 years ago. My pastor was researching for a series on our resurrected bodies and was astonished to find an article by Moore about we should not be cremeated. He was astonished this passed for “scholarship” out of SBTS.

  45. My father wanted to be cremated, and the thought just grossed me out personally. I now have him in my dining room cabinet…well part of the ashes that is! (giggles) After a while the thought didn’t bother me so much anymore.

    Our body will return to the earth (dust), but our spirit is what is with God if he accepts us.

    Piper is allowing his personal feelings to enter the equation on this issue. Maybe he is just as grossed out at the thought as I was. lol it certainly isn’t a biblical issue!

    Dad had a wonderful service, and those that were important to him? He could have been visited prior to his cremation if they wished too. The more than 300 people that showed up at his service? No one said a word about him NOT being there as Piper describes in that article.

    I swear at times they think up doctrine as they go along. (giggles)

  46. Just googled Anne Graham Lotz and Sept. 11.

    That brief look up did not have her saying God allowed it in order to teach her.

    It did have her say God allowed it and then used it as a wake up call for her.

    I would think any disaster would be a wake up call for all of us.

  47. “. . . powerful lies that had been foisted on a whole generation of women, the pervasiveness of feminist thinking in our whole culture, and the extent to which Christian women have bought into the whole philosophy . . . ”

    It’s clear that this movement depends on having an enemy, so there’s an incentive to create one even if it doesn’t exist. Really, the whole generation? Pervasiveness? Whole culture? Those are larger than reality statements designed to inflate the supposed danger. This dynamic is typical of extreme groups and is part of their identity formation. I’ve seen this kind of thing at work and it usually has more to do with reaffirming the in crowd than reaching anyone outside of it.

  48. “It irritates me and bothers me when I see a man fall in love with a beautiful thing that God has made and then, she just lets herself go!”

    I thought these guys liked to say that “godly” men should pick a “godly” wife based more on her character than her looks. But then they say things like this. The only logical conclusion of the above statement is that the man only fell in love with the woman for her looks – even though the Bible explicitly says that inner beauty and not outer beauty is what matters. Saying that a woman is no longer “beautiful” if she “lets herself go” in middle age (and then chastising her for it) completely discounts her character – which is just about as anti-Biblical as you can get.

  49. Per the John Piper cremation article:

    Where in the Bible does it say that cremation is “pagan”? And don’t ever tell Pipes about Tibetan “sky burials.” Granted, they’re a Buddhist practice, but they developed in part because the soil is too rocky in the Himalayas to bury bodies. And what about people in the Arctic before the advent of modern gravedigging technology? What if someone dies in winter and the ground is frozen solid? Just sayin’. It seems unsupportable to say that burial is a “more Christian” practice than cremation or anything else.

  50. The ground is too hard. If he wanted to get buried he should have died in the summer.

    I know John Wayne fans complained but the Coen brothers version of True Grit was fantastic. 🙂

  51. Hannah Thomas said: “Personally? I think the female mouthpieces, and the men that support them? They want the cash and kudos from their programs, websites, books, lectures and the rest.”

    Which is why you see this stuff primarily marketed to Anglo-American, evangelical, middle- to upper-middle-class suburbanites. Follow the money.

    Anyway, I don’t think the paradigm they’re peddling suits the taste of most minorities for whom opression is still too fresh and personal an issue. Why would anyone trade the blessed freedom she has in Christ for a new set of chains? Makes me wonder if those who subscribe to this view might actually fear being free, preferring bondage for some strange reason.

  52. Is Jesus Really Enough?”

    HowDee YaAll,

    What is God’s pattern for femininity, or manhood, anyway?

    And what is God’s place for us, in the scheme of things, broad brush strokes welded freely?


    How does one  prepare for a God-written love story, gaining victory over sin, and building a powerful prayer life?

    Do the pages of scripture challenge, bless, inspire, and encourage you?

    “What is the secret to great living? (…is it not a separation to Christ and dedicated  devotion to him?)

    Doesn’t God’s sacred intent for us go so very far beyond adding some Christian morality to our self-indulgent lives? Isn’t it his intent, really,  for you and me, nothing short of absolute abandonment to Jesus, living a separation from the pollutions of the world, and pursuing an ardent worship of our Lord with every breath we take?

    What is the secret to truly great living? Is it not the making of Jesus Christ our all in all?

    Fulfillment,  Radiance, Beauty!

    (I like the song of it) hum, hum, hum-hum…

    How about you?

    His eyes are sill upon the wee sparrow…


    Agnus Dei!” 


  53. The buried versus cremated thing….

    The first time I heard it said that we shouldn’t be cremated, it was said with fear – the idea behind which was that in the resurrection, if you were cremated, you would have no body to be resurrected. Even my (at the time) child mind went: say what? Is God really that weak that he can’t resurrect you unless there’s a body ‘properly buried’ somewhere?
    Not to mention people who die in fires, explosions…or who died so long ago their bodies have turned to dust. It’s just sad.

    And my former pastor’s take is just silly….Christians shouldn’t be cremated because Jesus was buried and that’s our model….

  54. Hester,

    the first time I heard about the “sky burials” I imagined it may involve attaching hot air balloons to the bodies and then let the wind do the rest! 🙂

    I think I’d rather be buried than cremated… Mostly to reduce my carbon footprint!

  55. I would rather not permanently occupy some space that will eventually be needed to feed the hungry. I would prefer to be cremated, and my ashes buried under an oak sapling of a long lived, global warming resistant variety (Monterrey Oaks do well in hot, dry areas). So that I become fertilizer for a carbon sequestration lasting a century or several.

  56. Thank you for posting about Anne Graham Lotz. That True Woman thingy showed up on my FB this week and I really like the person who keeps posting that junk, but, oh. my.

    And Poor Piper. When will he ever go away?
    I plan to be cremated and dumped beneath a huge tree in a private forest. Mr. Irish gets the same if he goes first, although he does get a little excited when I mention this to him. (Still smell some lingering reformed smoke on him.)

    If Jesus wore sandals, does that mean I have to pitch my Mukluks? Gah. I am so glad to have been kicked to the curb by the reformed baptists and then the reformed presbys for pausing to say, “hmmm, I think we have a problem here.”

    Keep up the good work, TWW.

  57. And there were no briefs (tighty whiteys) in Jesus day, nor feminine hygiene products, nor penicillin, etc., etc., etc. No cars, no microphones, etc., yet these are OK. So people who advocate such limits should have to live to all of them, as a condition for doing being heard in such advocacy!!!!

  58. To listen to the live streaming of Just Give Me Jesus, click LIVESTREAM

    If you want to listen to the live streaming of True Woman ’12, you have to sign up first with your name, e-mail address, etc.

    Another tremendous difference…

  59. Hester, I agree and I find it interesting that he would be so irritated by it. It is always a double standard when it comes to women’s looks. These type of men think they are all that and are obviously in denial about how they look. Reality is that everyone ages. That it just part of the cycle of life. We can’t stop the inevitable. I suppose these men will continue to think they are wonderful looking at 80 and the 80 year old women let themselves go. It’s so stupid that I have to laugh.

  60. Re “letting yourself go”, a lot depends on why someone appears to have “let themselves go”. If it’s a man and he’s been just chugging six-packs most evenings, or a woman and she’s been devouring a whole box of chocs on the sofa, then that is letting yourself go. On the other hand as others have pointed out here, age also causes our bodies to change, usually, in the case of humans, to a bit of extra weight that sometimes gets pulled downwards (!) and loss of hair on the scalp. Where hair is still present the oils themselves apparently change so that the texture becomes different (and of course the colour changes!). This isn’t confined to the human race – old male iguanas get more jowly with age, while sliders (terrapins as we Europeans call them) go from their groovy green and yellow shell patterns to being virtually totally black in old age.

    Re cremation, historically the Chrisian church has not generally been favourable to the practice (see Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cremation_in_Christianity). However it is important to note that even in denominations which are strict on this, there were important exceptions, eg health reasons (endemics and so on). A practical reason for not cremating is if there is a case for exhuming the body later for medical or forensic reasons, eg should foul play be suspected. Nevertheless there is no direct Biblical ruling that I am aware of, and as Jeanette has pointed out, the God of the Resurrection can surely bring resurrect any person no matter how they died, even if they were consumed by fire or their remains disposed of by wild animals.

  61. The Bible teaches that we will have a new body when we are resurrected, not a repaired or regathered old one. So it is our spirit (aka soul) that is eternal and resurrected, and not the physical structure. And yes, it is a bodily resurrection, just in a new body.

  62. What irked me when I first heard of this Manifesto years ago were the words “True Woman.” As opposed to “Fake Woman,” aka non-evangelical Christian woman.

  63. Lucie

    If you question “True Woman” you are a fake woman according to these guys who decide what is true and what is fake. Good comment.