"I hope it sends a chill up the spines of top Catholic officials across the U.S."
David Clossey (Director of SNAP)
Saint Peter's Basilica in Vatican City
Taken by Deb
"The first American bishop criminally charged in the clergy sex abuse scandal was found guilty Thursday [9/6/12] of a misdemeanor count of failing to report suspected child abuse, a conviction that extends the struggle of Roman Catholic leaders to restore trust in the church," according to the Associated Press.
CBS News broke the story this way:
"Bishop Robert Finn of Kansas City was found guilty of one misdemeanor count for failing to report suspected abuse by one of his priests. Elaine Quijano reports he is the highest-ranking church official to be convicted in the child sex abuse scandal thus far." Here is how it was reported nationwide:
The Kansas City Star confirmed that Robert W. Finn is the highest-ranking cleric in the United States ever convicted in the child sexual abuse scandal that has plagued the Catholic Church for decades. Finn was acquitted of the other misdemeanor charge of failing to report. It's also noteworthy that two similar counts against the diocese by Jackson County prosecutors were dismissed. The Kansas City Star article further stated:
The verdicts came after a short nonjury trial in Jackson County Circuit Court. Judge John Torrence immediately sentenced Finn to two years’ of probation, then suspended the imposition of the sentence. That means that if Finn finishes the probation without incident and completes nine steps as part of his sentence, the bishop’s criminal record will be expunged.
Finn had faced a maximum penalty of a year in jail and a $1,000 fine on each charge. The diocese had faced a fine of up to $5,000 on each of its two counts if convicted.
Before hearing his sentence, Finn told the judge, “I truly regret and am sorry for the hurt these events caused.”
He also said, “The protection of children is paramount, and sexual abuse of any kind will not be tolerated.”
Because of the nature of the suspended sentence, Finn cannot appeal his conviction, said J.R. Hobbs, who represented the bishop at the trial.
The charges stemmed from the church’s handling of the Rev. Shawn Ratigan, on whose laptop computer a diocesan vendor found hundreds of lewd photos of young girls in December 2010.
As you might imagine, not everyone was happy with the judge's verdict. Some thought it wasn't harsh enough. Take a look…
Yes, the protection of children is paramount!
We pray in the wake the the Sandusky Sex Scandal and the conviction of a Catholic Bishop that the tide is turning. One of our primary goals here at TWW has been to shine the light on the horrific sex crimes perpetrated against innocent children, particularly by church leaders. Who will stand up for the children?
Dee and I (who some would label as 'gullible' and 'easily deceived') make this promise to our TWW family — we will continue to harp on pedophilia and other forms of abuse. It must not be tolerated! We are overjoyed that a pastor in Oregon is speaking out against abuse in the pastorate. Jeff Crippen has penned an open letter to his fellow pastors, which we are including in this post. Please join with us in praying that many eyes will be opened in Christendom.
Pastor Jeff Crippen of Tillamook, Oregon has been burdened to write an open letter to his fellow pastors regarding the misuse of power and control in churches. He has a website called A Cry for Justice.
His desire is that pastors' eyes would be opened to the misuse of power and control in their churches and to caution them regarding how very easily anyone can become guilty of lording it over people. In particular, he wants to assist pastors and church leaders in understanding that one extremely common scenario which is occurring in conservative, Bible-believing churches with alarming regularity, concerns how they are mishandling cases of abuse (both domestic and sexual) that are brought to their attention and/or occurring right under their noses within their own congregations.
Pastor Crippen has granted permission for anyone to reproduce this letter (which follows) and use it to good ends. He requests that the wording NOT be altered in any way and that the letter be reproduced in its entirety.
We, along with Pastor Crippen, would be very interested in hearing from anyone who uses this as a tool to call the Body of Christ to justice and wisdom in dealing with the oppressed.
Abuse and Pastors: An Open Letter from a Pastor to Pastors (link)
Dear Pastor:
The evil of domestic and sexual abuse is in our midst. By "our," I mean our conservative, Bible-believing churches. Churches just like the one I have pastored for nearly twenty years now. We are not doing well in confronting the perpetrators nor in effecting justice and kindness for their victims. I would like to share my story with you in hopes that you can learn from it, and that we might all then bring the glory to Christ which we desire to.
None of us learned about this evil in seminary. As a result, we are largely blind to it. Lest you think that you surely would see it if it were in your church, and that for the most part your church is free of it, let me assure you that those very thoughts reveal our blindness.
The evil of domestic and sexual abuse either was – is – or is going to be in your church. And even more frightening is the confirmed fact that when it comes to your congregation, you (like me in the past) will not deal with it rightly, if you even see it at all. None of us would like to think that we would ever be an ally of evil against an oppressed victim. Yet this is what will indeed happen in your church and ministry unless you prepare yourself.
Permit me, if you will, to share my story with you in the hope that you can learn from it, and that we might all then bring the glory to Christ which we desire to.
First, let me share with you some of the lessons the Lord has had to teach me over the years, and which I am still learning. It took some really hard "knocks" from Him to get my attention.
In seeking to reform this church, myself and our elders wrote a new book of church order (bylaws). In what we believed to be faithfulness to Scripture, we instituted the following practices:
1. Women could not vote. The men, as the head of their families and wives, voted.
2. Women could not pray aloud in prayer meetings, only the men.
Our church was, and still is, virtually entirely home school families. Men were to be the head of their homes and women were to be in submission to their husbands. Books such as "Me Obey Him?" and child-raising materials from ultra-conservative organizations circulated among us (the kind that basically say: homeschooling is God's will for every Christian family, etc.).
We truly desired to do "better" in following Christ than all the other typical local churches around us that were, in our opinion, largely compromised with the world. No one sat down and mapped this all out. We embraced these things over time.
The Lord Arrested Our Attention
And then the Lord blew the lid off of our pride. I won't give the details, but a terrible incident of sexual abuse of a child occurred among us. At the same time, we found ourselves being recruited by an abusive man as allies against his wife. These are the things that divide churches!
These events propelled me into the study of abuse, domestic and sexual, in an effort to better understand how these things had crept up on us and what we needed to repent of. I wanted to know if there were signs we could look for that would help us detect abusers and their victims much earlier. And so I began to read.
Over time, and by no means at my own doing, we came to realize that we had created an environment in our church that was abuser-friendly. Evil-friendly. We, as leaders, had encouraged our men to lord it over their wives and families rather than loving them. We had created an environment that was unbiblically oppressive to women. Our elders and I, over some period of time, began to realize this–by the Lord's mercy in showing us–and we began to make some changes.
Implementing Some Positive Changes
Women in our church can now vote. Women can pray aloud in prayer meetings. In the course of preaching my sermon series on abuse, I acknowledged to our church (and I have continued to do so) that we had not done enough regarding teaching and preaching on the subjects of marriage, headship, and submission.
We had failed to clearly describe what headship is not, and what submission is not. We came to the realization that abuse–a pattern of coercive control employing any one or more of emotional, verbal, sexual, spiritual, physical, financial, and social mistreatment of the other spouse–is indeed, biblical grounds for divorce and that we would no longer insist that a husband or wife be required by the Lord to remain in a relationship in which the marriage vows had been habitually broken.
We rejected what we consider to be unbiblical and exaggerated patriarchy that is promoted so widely by books and organizations within our conservative Christian circles. We still cling solidly to the position of the inerrancy and infallibility of God's Word and thus are by no means getting on some liberal "band-wagon" to make everyone happy.
We are calling upon other conservative, Bible-believing churches and pastors to do the same things and to stop creating abuser-friendly cultures in our churches. It is important to become educated and wise in regard to the mentality and tactics of abuse.
My First Steps
My first step in this process in our own church, with the support of our elders, was to preach a 21 part sermon series entitled "The Psychology of Evil." Why that title? Because you will not find any more fruitful field of study to help you understand evil in its bare, essential form than the study of the psychology and methods of the abuser. Behind his deceptive facade, the abuser is a living, breathing textbook on evil.
I highly recommend to you the following books: Why Does He Do That? by Lundy Bancroft. Our own book is due to be published in the fall of 2012, A Cry for Justice: How the Evil of Domestic Abuse Hides in Your Church. Not Under Bondage, by Barbara Roberts. Two fine books by George Simon Jr.: In Sheep's Clothing and Character Disturbance.
Getting a Grip
I would like to make a suggestion to you that may well be as hard for you to hear as it was for me, originally. It is simply this: if you have been dealing with a marriage in your church in which one spouse has been claiming to have been abused, and if that situation (as it so often does) has come to the point of threatening the unity of your church, or at least being something like a thorn to you that just won't go away, then the source of the problem may very probably rest with you and your leadership, rather than with the marriage partners themselves. I have had to face up to this personally and as I said, it took the Lord giving me some pretty hard blows to get my attention.
What do I mean that the real problem very likely rests with you? I mean that if your church is characterized by any or all of the following mentalities and philosophies, then evil, abusive individuals will find it a friendly place for them and victims will suffer. Injustices will be done to victims, all the while the leaders believing they are handling things scripturally.
Taking Stock
Therefore, if your church:
1. Embraces a theology that presumes a church member, a professing Christian really is a Christian, regardless of how they are living;
2. Emphasizes the headship of the husband and father and the submission of the wife and mother without getting right down to the "nitty-gritty" of what abuse of headship actually looks like, so that the men in the church even "squirm in" the pew if they are guilty,
3. Does not permit women to vote or to pray aloud,
4. Teaches that the marriage covenant is not to be broken, that divorce is wrong. That sounds biblical, but what it usually translates into is the clear implication that abuse is not grounds for divorce. That abuse victims, normally women, are pleasing God and suffering for Christ by remaining in a marriage to an abuser,
5. Discourages (in some cases forbids) a wife from saying anything negative about her husband . . .
then I suggest to you that it is not fundamentally the troubled marriage that is threatening the health of your church, but it is the climate that has been created which inevitably deals injustice to victims.
Injustice and Inequality Destroy Unity
As more and more people in the congregation begin to realize this injustice, unity is destroyed. As we, as pastors and leaders, dig our heels in further, all the while telling ourselves that we are standing faithful for Christ in this, we only add fuel to the fire.
There was still another hard thing that I had to face: just what do we think of women? The fact is that most conservative, Bible-believing pastors like us, actually look down upon women. We see them as inferior beings. We object to this charge, but our actions betray our real attitudes.
I had to ask myself, "Jeff, just exactly what is it that is going on in your head when a woman walks into your office and asks for help?" The answer I ultimately saw was "I see her as an inferior being and I talk down to her." Really, and with ruthless honesty: "What does Pastor _________ think about a woman who walks into his office?" What does he think about his wife? Don't rush to answers. The first responses we give are often wrong.
Pastor, if you and your church are dedicated, Bible-believing Christians who have been working to do your best to serve Christ, the chances are quite high that you have made some of the very same errors that we did. From my study of the growing number of cases of abuse uncovered in our churches, from hearing case after case of victims who have been terribly treated at our hands, I venture to say that you are not immune to these errors.
Seeking a Remedy
This means that, as in our case, the remedy for the threatened division or injustices rendered in your church lies mostly with you and your leadership, not with any one situation that you are dealing with. My prescription is that you and your leaders plead with the Lord to show you things that need to be repented of and changed.
What would happen in your church if you went before your people, after some genuine self-examination, and confessed to them that you have not done well in this matter? State that: instead of a healthy church, you have created an oppressive environment for women. State that: by God's grace you are resolved to set about making it right? What if you went to any specific woman in a particular case you have handled, and confessed these things to her? And then, set out to re-tool the culture of your church?
Many times we tell ourselves that these abuse victims (sometimes men, but usually women) who come to us asking for help have a "log" in their own eye and are just looking for the speck in their spouse's eye. Brother, I tell you that I had said the same thing about people in those kinds of situations many times. I am afraid that now I see there was an even bigger log in my own eye.
Persecution for Christ or Oppression of the Weak?
In order to do that, I had to put aside my oft-repeated argument that I was "standing for Christ's truth and was being persecuted by sinful people." Yes, persecution is going to come if we stand for Christ, but when we are doing wrong, when we are oppressing the oppressed and being duped by evil, the fallout is not persecution for Christ. It is the bad fruit of our own crippled thinking and wrong-doing.
I trust you take these words in the spirit they are given. They are meant to do good to Christ's church, to your ministry, and to the souls you oversee. I realize that in some cases, these things are calling for radical change on your part. All I can say is that we have made those radical changes here and still are working on them–and we aren't looking back.
In the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Jeff Crippen, Pastor
Tillamook, Oregon
Lydia's Corner: Exodus 2:11-3:22 Matthew 17:10-27 Psalm 22:1-18 Proverbs 5:7-14
” We came to the realization that abuse–a pattern of coercive control employing any one or more of emotional, verbal, sexual, spiritual, physical, financial, and social mistreatment of the other spouse–is indeed, biblical grounds for divorce and that we would no longer insist that a husband or wife be required by the Lord to remain in a relationship in which the marriage vows had been habitually broken.”
Yes! He gets it! Piper took on Instone-Brewer over this and many believed Piper because they interpret the NT very badly not understanding the reason Jesus was asked about “any cause” divorce by the Pharisees. The OT made “neglect” as in abuse abandonment, etc, a cause for divorce. The teaching we find in many churches concerning divorce actually enables evil. LIke Patterson saying go back and submit more. Or Bruce Ware teaching that unsubmissive women trigger abuse. or Piper saying women should take abuse for a season. These men are enabling evil because abusers, manipulators are attracted to this teaching and use it against the victim.
“What do I mean that the real problem very likely rests with you? I mean that if your church is characterized by any or all of the following mentalities and philosophies, then evil, abusive individuals will find it a friendly place for them and victims will suffer. Injustices will be done to victims, all the while the leaders believing they are handling things scripturally.”
Amen, Amen, Amen. They are actually incubating evil and protecting it and they will answer for it as they do it in the Name of Jesus Christ
I found Crippen’s site a while back and Praise God for him.
“There was still another hard thing that I had to face: just what do we think of women? The fact is that most conservative, Bible-believing pastors like us, actually look down upon women. We see them as inferior beings. We object to this charge, but our actions betray our real attitudes. ”
Yes! And I see this on pastor oriented blogs all the time. They will respond to women commenters condescendingly and use terms such as “emotional”, bitter, hateful, etc. Some even rebuke them for being unladylike when she was using verifiable facts.
They don’t even know they are doing this. It has been so ingrained in the psychy it is just their nature. They have been listening to Driscoll, Mahaney, Mohler,and all the others and don’t even realize how far gone they are.
But go on a blog where many male pastors are commenting and watch how they deal with a woman who disagrees with them. The worst thing she can be is educated. They are very insecure.
Maybe I overlooked it, but did Jeff Crippen send his letter to his fellow pastors?
Victorious – My understanding is that Jeff sent it to one particular pastor and then decided that it would be beneficial for pastors in general because this is such a widespread issue. I’m glad he made the choice to release it publicly. I posted it on my blog this morning – – this is the kind of thing that needs to be broadcast far and wide and I’m happy to do my part.
Hi Victorious,
I helped Jeff with edit suggestions and the idea that it would be good to post this letter on a few blogs. Jeff thought that was a super idea, gave his permission, and here we are.
We hope that others will pass it along to whoever they can in their contexts.
OK, thanks, Julie Anne!
FYI, Jeff Crippen posted this letter to pastors on his website, and I have added the link for those who would like to go directly there.
Barb Orlowski,
Thanks for helping in this endeavor. I am so grateful to Pastor Crippen for his boldness. If only more pastors were like Jeff.
Forgive me if I’ve posted this before, but as a victim advocate at a local shelter for 10 yrs., I can’t tell you the horrors I’ve seen in this area. What bothered me most during those 10 yrs. is the fact that our Outreach/Education Dept. offered to provide education about domestic violence to nearly every church in the city. In all those years, only one church invited us to organize a seminar at their church. The focus was to provide the tools to church personnel and leaders in counseling victims within their churches. The one seminar we had was successful in that most were woefully ignorant of the dangers involved to, not only the victim, but those who might assist her.
Most churches denied it was a problem in their congregations.
Victorious,
I find your experience terribly disturbing. We have to keep sounding the alarm!
P.S. My personal feeling is that churches are not equipped nor knowledgeable to adequately provide all the information needed by victims of domestic violence. The very best assistance (again, in my opinion) they can provide is to make the professional DV resources in their area available. These agencies do this for a living and are experts in this area. They provide 24-hr. anonymous hotlines, shelter, support groups, etc. All local law enforcement are aware of the location of these shelters as well as hotline numbers.
@ Victorious on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 05:41 PM said: “P.S. My personal feeling is that churches are not equipped nor knowledgeable to adequately provide all the information needed by victims of domestic violence.”
From all I’ve heard over the years, I agree with you that those who have professional expertise are the best resources for survivors of domestic violence. My sister began her volunteer work with survivors of battering in about 1975, and over the next 35 years expanded her ministry to rape crisis advocacy, safe-house management, and child sexual assault prevention training. Theologically conservative/evangelical churches were among the most resistant to her coming in to speak with leaders, educate staff and volunteers, or share with a general church audience. This particularly pained her heart, but she kept on with her work with whoever was receptive.
I’ve come to believe that seminaries, training programs, and ministry networks should REQUIRE training on all forms of abuse – warning signs, theological perspectives that hide/enable abusive behaviors, etc. Students should be required as well to create or adapt a series of policies and procedures to use for oversight and reporting abuse in whatever ministry organizations they eventually work in.
In the wake of Penn State, the current case with this bishop, and recent resignations of pastors for sexual misconduct, those who train future Church leaders need to wake up! I suspect we are entering an era when staff members and volunteers who are ignorant or resistant about watching for signs of abuse put their church or ministry at severe risk in multiple ways. I expect there will be increased legal system scrutiny of religious organizations that fail to report. I also expect there will be increased scrutiny by Christians and communities to identify churches, ministries, and Christian non-profits that fail to do what they can to prevent, intercept, and intervene on any/all kinds of abuse.
Any “leadership” training program that minimizes or leaves out this kind of required training indirectly contributes to the corrosion of churches and Kingdom witnesses in their host communities. Even worse, what should be a safe house for God’s people potentially becomes a place of harm for lack of leadership knowledge or will to address the evils of violence.
TWW’s twitter account suspended!!!!!!
Coincidence? After exchanging three benign tweets with Jared C Wilson, our TWW twitter account has been suspended. We will get to the bottom of this and will keep you informed…
I read this letter, and I think about how Doug Wilson handled (and continues to handle) multiple situations of a similar and probably much worse nature, and I think that Wilson is very fortunate that God is not currently opening holes in the Earth to swallow people alive (John Piper’s opinions on that notwithstanding).
Thanks Brad,
I appreciate this Manifesto!
It is a worthy document to pass on to those who need to hear it!
brad/futuristguy on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 06:34 PM
My own history in these fields very much mirrors that of your sister. I was also responsible for a 24-hr. on-call program for sexual assault at 4 local hospitals. And as such (for both DV and SA) we were forbidden to discuss religion or spiritual matters with victims because of our funding.
I also heartily agree with mandatory training; however, I strongly oppose spiritual counseling in these areas as they are legal matters technically. If one has a tooth ache, we don’t expect them to go to the pastor for advice; likewise for a home invasion, etc. Battery is against the law and should be reported to law enforcement just the same as child abuse. The required/mandatory training should not be for the purpose of counseling, but rather for understanding the dynamics and the dangers involved. Then the appropriate resources should be provided.
I sympathize with your sister’s “heart pain” about the resistance in churches.
I received this ‘letter to pastors’ in my email this morning. I tend not to be an emotional person, but this letter made me cry. I have to admit I was shaken all morning.
I have been writing on and off about domestic violence and sexual abuse within the church since 2004 according to my profile on blogger. I can’t believe it has been that long.
I have also had the same experience that Victorious had with churches, and domestic violence/sexual abuse outreach to the community of churches. The town next to me has over 100 churches in it, and just one asked for more information. ONE – ONE CHURCH!
They told me it would happen, but I pushed them anyway to try it again. AND AGAIN…and again!
The pain of my own experiences lead me to write, and at first it was only a copy and paste of what FEW articles I could find on the faith prospective on this ugly subject. I wasn’t brave enough yet to include my own opinions. I started it as a collection for myself, because I didn’t want to misplace them. I didn’t want them to disappear once the organizations change their format on the sites.
Within the years I have had two organizations that have ‘changed’ their prospective on domestic violence and sexual abuse ask me to remove their articles from my blog. They changed their minds.
People need to stop dancing around when it comes to issues of women in the church, and YES abuse towards men and women alike. They need to stop their chanting about how there is freedom here, and yet you don’t see freedom. You can’t feel it either.
I don’t think they realize how many followers of Christ they have pushed away, and have become unbelievers due to their lack of grace, humility, and the true acknowledgment of the reality of people’s lifes. They would rather use spiritual pixie dust, and sprinkle it around to show they did something.
I believe at times certain circles push the authority and headship so they can shut down the debate. They can shut down the dialog. They rule so they can do that.
I will admit things a tad better than when I started, and was totally discouraged, hurt and dismayed by the lack of resources from places of faith. Its almost overwhelming at how much further we need to come.
It was awesome letter. I pray that some listen, and they actually hear. I think I cried because after being bruised and wounded trying to get others to hear? I realized how jaded I have become, because I don’t have enough faith to believe they will drop their pride and open their hearts enough to hear. Their spiritual pixie dust is comfortable, and lets face facts…this issue isn’t.
bridget
i have thoroughly reviewed the twitter policies and have not violated any policy that I can see. I tend to be obsessive about citing work, we have no bad language, we do not spam. I send out 1 tweet per day M-F and occasionally add a second.
Today, for the first time, I did a reply (by hitting the reply feature on Jared’s tweets (mine has them as well). Jared has done conversations with others via tweet-i know. I checked it out so this, too, is normal.I sent him three replies. He replied to me once.
This should prove to be most interesting. I will not back down, BTW, and I intend to have my tweets up and running ASAP.
Dee – – I saw your tweets. At the time I was e-mailing with Jeff Crippen about getting his Twitter account going and saw them. There was nothing wrong with your tweets. What’s interesting is I thought about getting a screen shot of the conversation, but unfortunately didn’t. You should be fine. I can’t wait to hear what happened, though.
Dee – I found the original conversation. It has one response attached (not yours). I got a screenshot of it in case you need it. Check your e-mail.
Victorious on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 07:04 PM said: “The required/mandatory training should not be for the purpose of counseling, but rather for understanding the dynamics and the dangers involved. Then the appropriate resources should be provided.”
What you’ve said makes sense to me overall. The training I believe should be required would have several key purposes. (1) To prevent negligence in the area of oversight and MANDATORY reporting, plus (2) to educate people to the kinds of impact abuse has *so that they do not inflict further harm*.
The latter is some of the compounding of abuse that we’ve seen referred to across the blogosphere, for instance, where a perpetrator is “worked with” and the victims are ignored. Or when a person in a ministry role of authority tells a battered wife to go home and “submit to your husband.” Or a known sexual offender is being watched so he is not around children unless other adults are present, but there are apparent lapses in this oversight.
I have stated a few times over the past couple years that I would not be at all surprised if training institutions eventually have to bear some of the social fallout and/or legal liability for failure to equip their students to obey the laws of the townships, states/provinces, and countries that host our ministries. “Freedom of religion” does not mean freedom from obeying laws designed to protect victimization of people by acts of violence.
@brad/futuristguy on Fri Sep 07, 2012 at 07:43 PM
Great thoughts! Perpetrators should not be “worked with” in the church imo. If law enforcement is notified of the crime, the perp will be court ordered to a mandatory anger management group for a specified length of time. That’s the professional help he (or she) needs. Women are guilty of physical battery as well. I had the privilege as part of my training to attend an anger management group for both men and one for women. Most women (but not all, of course) become batterers as a self-defense measure and also become abusive to their children. It’s a learned behavior as a result of living in a “war zone.”
Anyway, again, though some may disagree, I feel strongly the problem does not belong in the church for resolution. For education, as you proposed, yes.
“TWW’s twitter account suspended!!!!!!
Coincidence? After exchanging three benign tweets with Jared C Wilson, our TWW twitter account has been suspended. We will get to the bottom of this and will keep you informed…”
Usually not a coincidence. I have seen pastors and ministry pro’s have negative amazon reviews deleted, comments on blogs they did not own deleted and so forth. They want to be internet celebs YET censor anything they think reflects negatively on them.In fact, I have seen them declare repeating their own words slander!~ It is hilarious how thin skinned and childish they are not to mention, illogical.
A few years back a huge battle went on over at Amazon over negative reviews of Passionate Housewives. the authors had negative reviews removed over this silly patriarchal book. They had stacked the reviews with glowing recommendations and then the anti patriarchal Christians came in with the truth. the reviewers took Amazon on and finally Amazon put them back up. So stick to it. If you were repeating anything Jared said on a tweet or blog, he has no case. Perhaps, like Driscoll, he will have to keep learning the hard way. Once it goes out there and you write what pedantic thing you were thinking at the time, there is no turning back. It is out there.
I am glad these guys tweet and blog. It shows us the immaturity and vaucity of what passes for pastors today. I say, keep tweeting what you are thinking!!!
I did my master’s thesis in the late 90’s about pastor’s knowledge, views and attitudes regarding child abuse. Not too surprisingly, not many knew the signs of abuse and stated that they had not dealt with abuse in their church. Many also have no training. I have a ministry degree and not once was this ever discussed in any of our ministry classes. I, too, believe that schools that train pastors must cover domestic violence. And, I don’t think that they necessarily need to be trained on how to counsel victims. That should be left to professionals. They need to be trained to identify the warning signs and how to respond correctly to suspected abuse or to a victim who comes to them for help.
My own thoughts are that there seems to be a complete lack of empathy in many pastors and church officials that leads to oppression of women and gays and turning a blind eye to child and spousal abuse. This is definitely not just a church issue – the Penn State debacle being a prime example of a complete lack of empathy on the part of those in leadership – but if one was to going looking for empathy, a church should be at the top of the list of places to find it. Unfortunately, it seems to be as missing in churches as it is in society.
jeff,
I couldn’t agree more!
If men of God who are to be modeling themselves after Christ aren’t showing empathy to the downtrodden, then who in the world is?
@ Victorious:
“Battery is against the law and should be reported to law enforcement just the same as child abuse.”
Exactly. This is like what I said on here a few weeks ago about the age of consent. Sexual activity with a minor is a CRIME. Wifebeating is a CRIME. Paul tells us that we are to obey the laws of the land and that the state “bears the sword” to bring “vengeance” and “wrath” on evildoers (= lawbreakers) (Romans 13). Ergo, if you have broken the law (by beating your wife), you are to be handed over to the state to have its “vengeance” (legal penalty) wreaked upon you. Interestingly, Paul also calls magistrates “ministers of God for good” in this passage, so logically it would be perfectly fine for a Christian to report a criminal (in this case, a wifebeater) so they can be properly “ministered to” by the magistrate by being held accountable, because it would be a “good” thing.
The command for Christians not to take each other to court, IMO, has nothing to do with this. That is about using the courts to get your own personal “pound of flesh” out of the other person. It is not about cases where an actual CRIME has been committed.
Please somebody tell me if I’m crazy, but that all makes sense to me…
Deb
Absolutely! I think empathy is a critical part of ‘Love thy Neighbor’
Anon1
I contested and they have “unsuspended” my account. I am asking for a full review because I suspect malicious activity on the part of some “gospel” wusses.
Hester,
not crazy at all. as sound and rational as it gets. religious freakdom is what leads people in church to not recognize these crimes for what they are. A major sobering up and sustained detox required.
Off Topic: Flame Warriors … http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/
@ Hester~
You are absolutely right…says my law enforcement husband.
Dee – Your Twitter suspension sure reminds me of the “malicious phishing” issue that Tom of FBCJaxWatchdog and I both experienced on our blogs simultaneously a while back. Quite a few people were unable to access our blogs until the block was removed. Things that make you go hmmmmmmm. The only way this kind of thing happens is for someone to report it.
Eagle,
There is an undercurrent in the Reformed movement that believes our government is not legit because it is secular. You can hear it come out now and then. Example would be SGM telling victims (usually parents of the victim) not to go to secular authorities but let the church handle it. What they are really saying is the church is their theocracy or government for such things. And we are talking a civil crime!
Truth is that much of this YRR NC reformed movement thinks the enlightenment was pure evil. Some will say the enlightenment was evil but when you start questioning them (seen this on many blog convos) it is obvious they have not thought it through but are parroting what they have been taught. And many of these are young pastors who are teaching this. They do not even realize they have fallen for the “divine right of kings” argument. They simply say it led to the French Revolution forgetting France was a state church that practiced the divine right of kings. Even the nation states of Geneva and others in Germany believed in divine rulers of princes merged with the church.
I have been astonished at the ignorance of history coming from the reformed movement. I really like how John Zens approaches this subject. He gets it and sees that Christianity has been operating as a false system for about 1500 years. He has some interesting stuff on his blog searchingtogether
“If men of God who are to be modeling themselves after Christ aren’t showing empathy to the downtrodden, then who in the world is?”
Ever read the OT? The hard hearted priests are constantly railed against. It is just redux. And now they are supposed to have the indwelling Holy Spirit, but we see hard heartedness, coarseness and oppression all around us from those who make their LIVING modeling Christ. Amazing.
One suggestion is to encourage people to read nothing but the Gospels for 3 years, every day. When they know Jesus Christ, how He operated, what He said, etc., THEN they can understand Paul (the abusers start with Paul) and will spot a wolf miles away. If people did this, they would not be able to even sit and listen to most of them for one sermon.
Are Paul’s words inspired? Yes. But even Peter said Paul was hard to understand. If we are not reading him through our “Jesus Christ” lens, then much is twisted and used for personal power and gain. Same with Hebrews (i.e. Hebrews 13:17 – their favorite badly translated passage).
“Someone is playing games and I am asking Twitter to help me get to the bottom of this. BTW, there is only one person I have ever @ replied (3 times) and that is Jared C Wilson. I feel a “gospel” post coming on.”
You go, girl.
Jared, if you have anything to do with this, man up and admit it. Remember, nothing will be hidden.
“When a pregnant woman from SGM is ready to go into labor I say they forgo the IV’s, medicine, doctor’s who were trained in medical schools, etc.. They can return to the old days when labor led to high death rates on the American frontier in the 19th century due to it’s dangerous nature. They can do this at their home and forgo all medical treatment.”
Remember the Puritans they are constantly quoting and promoting? They accused midwives who tried to help aleviate labor pains with herbs of being witches and burned them at the stake. You see, labor pains were God’s punishment for Eve and all women and it was a sin to avoid them. It chills me to the bone how much the Reformed movement worships Puritans. The leaders were evil. Ever read Cotton Mathers treatise on why it is ok to wipe out Indian tribes (women and children, too!) if they don’t cooperate with giving up land?
Yes, they worship Adam Smith when it comes to their own profit making off the Name of Jesus. But they love to promote history’s oppressors as godly people.
@ Eagle:
“I would suggest that much of the modern reformed actually encourages criminal activity and is in violation of Romans 13. Whether it be Piper encouraging women to stay in abusive relationships. Or Driscoll threatening violence.”
Ooooh… Interesting tack to take. Piper definitely is by telling women to endure abuse.
@ Anon:
“There is an undercurrent in the Reformed movement that believes our government is not legit because it is secular.”
Yes, that would be Reconstructionism ala Rushdoony, Wilson and Phillips. Whether the more “traditional” Neo-Calvinists fully embrace that or not, I don’t know, but it certainly isn’t encouraging when John Piper starts fawning over Doug Wilson.
Has anybody here ever looked into Christian survivalism? The most popular survivalist blog in the world is run by a Calvinist Reconstructionist Libertarian.
Addendum to Anon:
Also, I really should look up the Puritans’ exact views on the relationship between church and state. I know the ones in Massachusetts Bay effectively made it a requirement that all civil magistrates be church members, which at the time meant that they had narrated their entire testimony to church elders who then decided based upon that whether or not they were really saved. So basically only “certified saved people” could serve in government in Massachusetts Bay. (I suspect this went out the window with the Halfway Covenant – their churches couldn’t even get enough members at that point, so I’m sure the government wasn’t doing any better.)
I should learn a lot more about the Commonwealth and the English Civil War…
@ Eagle:
“I wonder if John Piper, Albert Mohler, CJ Mahaney, Mark Driscoll, etc.. believe the Jewish Holocaust even occurred.”
Well, R. J. Rushdoony didn’t.
2nd addendum @ Anon:
“Ever read Cotton Mather’s treatise on why it is ok to wipe out Indian tribes (women and children, too!) if they don’t cooperate with giving up land?”
Ever heard how Cotton Mather got people in Salem to hang Rev. George Burroughs anyway after Burroughs, while standing on the gallows, met their own requirements for NOT being a witch?
Dee,
Off topic, but check out the splash page with the Google logo on google.com today. I think you’ll like it!
“we will continue to harp on pedophilia and other forms of abuse.”
Good!
Hester
Thank you for highlighting the atrocities visited upon innocent people in my hometown of Salem, Mass. Whenever any group of people are idolized, history is buried. We are all sinners and continue to sin in serious ways. The Puritans were examples of this as well. Some of the witch trials was based in superstition and alot of it was based on local families wanting to make a land grab. The easiest way to do so is to accuse a guy, who is holding a choice piece of land, of being a witch. To jail, to the gallows or to pressing for him and the “in crowd” gets the spoils.
We must stop idolizing people- be it cool pastors, Puritans, Calvin, Luther, or Christian leaders and missionaries. All of them, including ourselves, are capable of great sin. Instead of just studying their writings, we must study their behavior. Theology and protestation of holiness mean squat until we see how it is lived out. And, as we see the failures of everyone, and I do mean everyone, we can better understand the grace of Jesus and follow Him instead of some ideal.
Anon1
On Monday, I plan to do a post on this little escapade. So many people in the church , particularly leaders, want to shut people up. The intent of @reply to Jared was to encourage him to not Tweet insulting comments about the appearance of women. I actually (there is still a bit of idealism in my soul) thought we might be able to see eye to eye and make this go away. I previewed a series of tweet exchanges between a woman and Wilson(there were at least 10 back and forths) in which she was challenging him on a point. So, stupid me I thought I might do the same since it was obvious that he has done this with others who disagree with him.
Funny thing, I had never used the “reply” feature before. So this was my first experience. What a lesson.
Unfortunately, he replied in a sarcastic manner so I asked him to reconsider. I texted him three times-one he asnwered so I return answered him but it was a bit long so it had to be sent on 2 tweets (you only get 140 characters per tweet.)
On Monday, i plan to write how one might try to interfere with the free speech of another within the church. Sad part is, if Jared had said to stop @reply to him, i would have done so. Actually, I planned to stop if he stopped replying.I do not force myself on others.
There is more to this story. But, I think now I have some evidence of the lengths some of these folks go to shut people up. I have asked Twitter to do a full review of all of my tweets which also run on the blog home page so you all can see them. They are benign-discussing religious items of interest. I send one (occ two) per day. They are carefully cited and are not vulgar by any stretch of the imagination, which is difficult because once in a blue moon I say something about Driscoll!
I want them to do this review so they can see the subject matter of my tweets. I plan to make sure this never happens again, even if I have to expose someone to do so.
@ Dee~
“We must stop idolizing people- be it cool pastors, Puritans, Calvin, Luther, or Christian leaders and missionaries. All of them, including ourselves, are capable of great sin. Instead of just studying their writings, we must study their behavior. Theology and protestation of holiness mean squat until we see how it is lived out. And, as we see the failures of everyone, and I do mean everyone, we can better understand the grace of Jesus and follow Him instead of some ideal.
Amen to this.
A good example, imo, of kind of “uncomfortable to read” praise from one pastor to another: http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/2011/01/28/an-open-letter-to-ray-ortlund-jr/
BTW–I emailed Jared yesterday AM but have not had a reply yet. I also had a warning from Microsoft on my email last evening about 9:00 that “malicious activity” may be taking place on my account and my account was blocked until I could verify who I was. It was no big deal, but that has never happened to me before. Whatever.
Dee,
YOU GO GIRL!
What occurred must have been providential! 🙂
Diane –
You really should follow through with Microsoft and find out why the sane thing, basically, happened to you as it did to Dees Twitter account. If someone is com
Diane
Could you take a picture of that email and send it to me? I want to show it to the Twitter people. The only malicious thing that is going on is Christian wusses who masquerade as patriarchs who cannot stand the courage of their convictions.
Ugh . . . that post comment button again!
. . . if someone is making false accusations about emails and Twitters they are receiving then that is a big issue. Especially if they are complaining without first asking the party they are complaining about to stop. Seriously, wouldn’t these people be making FALSE accusations to Twitter and Microsoft? Shouldn’t their accounts be shut down IF they are making FALSE accusations?!?!
And, good grief . . . man up and respond to questions in a Godly grown-up way instead if acting like a middle-schooler!
“Someone’s” starting to remind me of CJM and other men who ACT like they have the divine right of kings!!!
Yes, I’m ranting!!
Diane
I plan to write about this on Monday. Can you imagine? He is afraid of a little disagreement. Can you imagine the poor person who has a suggestion for him in his church??
Maybe he (or 11 of his closest friends-I’ll explain that on Monday) is reading this. The two women who run this blog can take it. “Gospel” courage means that you try to dialog instead of block which is something Jesus well demonstrated.
Deb
There has been a lot of “providence” in our journey, hasn’t there?
Dee,
I’m thinking of 3 possibilities
1: Your first tweet was from @bidgod and the next 2 from @wartwatch. Maybe this triggered something automatic.
2: You mentioned the hat lady in the context of Jared’s abdominal (and abominable) tweets. This is intolerable slander.
3: You “threatened” to post Jared’s reply. Threats cannot be tolerated. (of course, I did post his reply anyway, about the same time– @bidgod You mean, b/c I’m implying a woman could do a job just as well as a man?)
Dee – Sent you 2 short emails.
“Yes, that would be Reconstructionism ala Rushdoony, Wilson and Phillips. Whether the more “traditional” Neo-Calvinists fully embrace that or not, I don’t know, but it certainly isn’t encouraging when John Piper starts fawning over Doug Wilson.”
Actually it has become much more mainstream than that although more subtle. Mahaney and SGM advise victims not to report crimes committed against them by other members so the church can handle it properly. McArthur teaches, in a subtle way, our gov is not legit because it violated Romans that teaches us to obey civil authorities. Many Piperites I have been around make fun of the 4th of July celebrations and think that folks who are patriotic in any way are idolatrous. (I am so thankful to be an American when it comes to the oppression of the theocratic minded Reformers!)
If you start reading blogs were many young reformed pastors are commenting, you can see where they disdain the Enlightenment, America and praise the Reformation (ignoring the horrors), Puritans and other oppressors of history. There is a whole subculture of rewriting history.
It would have been unthinkable a few years back for such a mainstream Christian celeb to embrace Doug Wilson. Wilson was considered the fringe. As these men crave power, I see this getting worse and worse. The internet has been a huge blessing. But as you can see, they attempt to censor in any way they can. Freedom of expression is only for them because they are the anointed ones who must lead the ignorant masses. (Platonic thinking which is exactly where Calvinism comes from…)
Dave
I have followed some tweet conversations, including those of Jared. They often involve a number of twitter accounts and commenters. Also, Deb owns one and I own one which is totally on the up and up. When I saw that he has used the @reply for public conversations, I then felt I could do so. I was more than polite by checking this out before hitting the reply button, something new to me.
Now, note what happened to Diane and the fact that Jared has locked down his twitters (which, in some respects is wise since he seems unable to understand what is a joke and what is not) and now, apparently, his emails. This is serious pushback.
I did not “threaten”. I merely said, Would you feel comfortable if I posted the comment? What was meant is “Only say things that you would not mind getting posted on other blogs.” This is a rule that we live by on this blog. Since we are merely women, surely a big boy patriarch could live up to our obviously low standards.
I had not planned to post his comments, merely to implore him to step it up a bit. I now will post his comments so it has backfired.
When I mentioned Dr Dorothy Patterson, I was merely trying to help him see the potential hypocrisy of his statements. We would cry in outrage if someone said this about one of our “own.” Treat others like we treat our own was my intent. If we do it to others, the ones we are trying to reach with the gospel, and Wilson hangs his hat on being”gospel,” then we must get this straight. If you are going to insist that women be submissive and men be respected then you don’t add insult to injury by insulting the appearance of women. He has learned much from the Driscoll who has done this as well.
I have asked Twitter to review everything that I have done, ever, on my Twitter account. Frankly, there is not much to review. Unlike Wilson, I do not post blow by blow on sporing events. I believe that anyone looking at my account will see that I am far more careful than most people in how I do Twitter. Then, I shall ask them to investigate what happened in this instance.
“I want them to do this review so they can see the subject matter of my tweets. I plan to make sure this never happens again, even if I have to expose someone to do so.”
Do you know how many people I have seen back down? Most folks are intimidated and think exposing this stuff is sin. They believe the lies the celebs tell them. Some are just not up to it and these charlatans know it. It blows people away when they get into this and realize just how bold and arrogant these guys are. They never would have believed it if they had not seen it first hand. But most won’t take them on. Most just go away. That is why it works. They really are oppressors. And they must find ways to shut people up so they have control of the message and their image.These guys crave followers and will do anything to protect their image so they can have many followers.
If they had power like the Puritans had or even as was had in Geneva, it would be much worse. How do I know? Because the foundational thinking is there. They really do believe they are special even though they front humility. They really cannot see how empty and vapid they are. Think about who their hero’s are. Calvin, Luther, Puritans, etc. Ever read about their lives and practice? Their hero’s were nothing but controllers and even spiritual abusers. In the case of Luther he was profane, vulgar and mean. His practices, writings and beliefs about women, Jews and peasants should make us cringe but it is usually excused away.
The only reason it works is because too many people are learning about Jesus Christ through them and not the Holy Spirit Who is the Best Teacher.
“Ray Outland getting praise?!? I can just see him standing at Nuremburg in 1945-46 explaining to the court, “I was just following orders…”
Eagle, The Nuremburg excuse is used for Calvin all the time by the YRR/NC movement on blogs. He was just following the laws of the land. (nevermind he had MAJOR influence on those laws even down to how many courses Genevans could serve at each meal. He wrote many of the laws himself and totally had control over the Petit council)
What concerns me is these young empty minds, many who are pastors, unwittingly use the Nuremburg defense to excuse Calvin’s practices and behaviors. That is scary. I find this startling. Especially when we have real life examples of those who paid with their lives to stand up to him and the state church.
Anon1
You are right.These leaders, past and present, were abusers and sinners. But, they somehow make it seem that they are different, a cut above the rest of us. They are not. Frankly, I am weary of it.
I am not perfect but I stand behind my tweets and that is why I am calling for a review of my account. I look forward to Twitter’s analysis of my supposed “spam.” We don’t even have many followers on twitter but we have a few more since this little dustup. bet we get more. Controversy always breeds interest, another little fact that these people overlook.
Dee, “When I mentioned Dr Dorothy Patterson, I was merely trying to help him see the potential hypocrisy of his statements. We would cry in outrage if someone said this about one of our “own.” Treat others like we treat our own was my intent.”
Yes! I tried the same thing on his TGC blog. I was leery of trying email, and don’t tweet. Unfortunately, he may never read it, since I posted by mistake on his 2nd to last rather than most recent post. Speaking of which, there is much potential “fodder” on his 11 Blessings post where more folks could try to instill the golden rule while remaining roughly on topic.
P S. Let me be clear: “This is intolerable slander’ and ‘ threats cannot be tolerated’ are only wild speculations from myself as to what someone who would shut down another’s tweets MIGHT be thinking. I can’t read his mind.
t would have been unthinkable a few years back for such a mainstream Christian celeb to embrace Doug Wilson. Wilson was considered the fringe. As these men crave power, I see this getting worse and worse. The internet has been a huge blessing. But as you can see, they attempt to censor in any way they can. Freedom of expression is only for them because they are the anointed ones who must lead the ignorant masses. — Anon1
The Party Can Do No Wrong, and they are the Inner Party.
And as for their claims of Humility, didn’t classic Communist dictators present a public image of how Ordinary and One of the People (i.e. Humble Humble Humble) they were?
If they had power like the Puritans had or even as was had in Geneva, it would be much worse. How do I know? Because the foundational thinking is there. — Anon1
Absolute Power plus Utter Righteousness is a REAL bad combination.
Citizen Robespierre…
Comrade Pol Pot…
Ayatollah Khomeini…
Mullah Omar…
Dave
I want you to look at Point 3 in that post you mention. I discovered it yesterday and I have made note of it in case it disappears. I wil lwrite on it one day. BTW, if anyone said they were going to post any of my tweets, I would say “thank you.” I work hard at finding relevant topics.
Ray Outland getting praise?!? I can just see him standing at Nuremburg in 1945-46 explaining to the court, “I was just following orders…” — Eagle
“Ich habe nur meine Befelhe ausgefert…”
(The thing is, under German law of the time — even before the National Socialists — this WAS a valid defense. Under old German law and bureaucratic tradition, the one giving the order was responsible, not the one carrying it out. That legal tradition was changed — hard — after the war to where under current German law both parties are responsible.)
Dave
One other point: What in the world is anyone doing on Twitter if they think that there tweets are supposed to be kept quiet? Heck, there is a retweet button that goes out on every tweet. All of us are doing this to reach people. So why in the world is he thinking, even if he thought I was planning on posting his comment, that it is a threat? At any moment, anyone can retweet any message. Surely he understands this?
I would like to point out that the pastor who wrote this open letter is Reformed and therefore a Calvinist- Driscoll and Piper do not represent all reformed folk.
“You are right.These leaders, past and present, were abusers and sinners. But, they somehow make it seem that they are different, a cut above the rest of us. They are not. Frankly, I am weary of it. ”
It is not as if we have not been warned:
5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place. 6 But you have this in your favor: You hate the practices of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. Rev 2
15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth. Rev 2
Most do not make the connection. Nicolaitan means “conqueror of the people”. Paul warns against this in Corinthians, too. I follow Paul, I follow Apollos.
We hear more about mere men interpreting Jesus for us than from Jesus as in the Gospels. Calvin, Luther, Piper, Mohler, Mahaney, etc. It is madness and not pleasing to our Savior.
This is why in spiritual abuse counseling we advise people to spend three years in the Gospels reading every day and praying for the Holy Spirit to illuminate truth from Christ to them. Once people really know Jesus Christ, how He operated and what He said, they can spot error, wolves, hirlings in an instance. They can also spot the error in how Paul is constantly mistranslated and interpreted to use as a club to oppress people for their own ego today. Many of these guys would be out of a job if people would do that with no pastor filter interpreting for them.
You know what came out of the Enlightenment, or the Age of Reason? Modern science!! — Eagle
So did the French Revolution (and 200 years of its successors from Paris to Phnom Penh), with Militant Materialism and Reason enthroned as a Goddess. That was the Dark Side of the Enlightenment.
Like all movements and changes and worldviews, it was not unmixed. Both the Best of Times and the Worst of Times, a Spring of Hope and a Winter of Despair.
Thinking about it now especially with Doug Wilson being celebrated within the ranks, especially with his views on slavery. I wonder if John Piper, Albert Mohler, CJ Mahaney, Mark Driscoll, etc.. believe the Jewish Holocaust even occurred. — Eagle
They could probably deny it as “Secular Heathen History”, invoking The Conspiracy and what THEY Want Us To Think. Problem with Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory is that any idea of truth and/or objective reality becomes a null concept.
Now “lets talk REAL crazy”. Never mind Holocaust Denial; there’s a rationale you find in Christian history that could actually JUSTIFY it. And HAS been used to justify anti-Jewish acts in the past. Ever heard of the term “Christ Killers”? “Let God’s Punishment be upon us and our children! Crucify! Crucify!” One small step to “And We Carry Out God’s Will!” (just like Calvin and his fanboys) and….
I come from a Roman Catholic family and my parents hate hearing about the pedophilia scandal. How long they ask must it go on? Why is the entire church held responsible for the actions of a few? My parents think it’s just another way for people to make money. My Mom asked, “Why do we have to constantly apologize..?” I forget how but I brought up the issue of Galileo and how it took the RC church 500 years to issue an apology and my Mom wasn’t happy with me. — Eagle
This was the Church that put my head back together spiritually after the Evangelical Circus tore it apart. They’re the ones who got me able to trust God and Christ again — at least as far as I’m able to, and covered by the liturgy. The Church with the solid historical trace. And all we’re known for now is pedophiles and cover-ups! Drive-time wags on the radio quipping about “John Paul II, Patron Saint of Pedophiles!” and “Father-pedophile… Monsignor-pedophile… Bishop-pedophile… Cardinal-pedophile…” (And my archdiocese’s Archbishop was one of the MOST asleep at the switch when everything blew up…)
It’s like Furry Fandom, where the vocal and destructive crazies are the only thing anyone ever notices! As a Furry I’d get falsely accused of Bestiality, now as a Catholic I’m automatically either a pedo or accessory to pedos!
As for John MacArthur or MAC as I call that son of a bitch…that puts this post over at Internet Monk in a different light. — Eagle
http://www.internetmonk.com/archive/im-speechless-how-do-you-respond
As I commented on that IMonk thread:
“If I were a kleptocratic dictator like Gadhafi, I’d do everything I could to encourage that kind of spirituality among my two-legged livestock.”
@ Eagle:
“They should be kept out of American Civil Service employment since their loyalty to the United States is now in doubt. … Since they don’t support the American flag or government they should be kept out of the military.”
I agree. It is my opinion that Reconstructionists would be lying if they took the oath of office, since their core beliefs necessitate dismantling the Constitution and replacing it with a theocracy, and therefore they cannot swear to “protect and defend” it.
JW: “Hast thou no texting, no email, no phone wherewith thou mayest share thy random thoughts privily with just thy bosom companions?”
Dee: You mean the “Needed her income” part? I used point 10, wondering what he’d think if some other preacher made a joke of its title.
Dee
Seems Jared has a problem, and a history, of NOT posting things he disagrees with.
He’s already asked me – as A. Amos Love – to NO longer submit comments.
Tried posting this a few days ago as – “Jimmy Justice” (A few have gotten thru in the past.)
“11 Blessings from My First 3 Years in Vermont Ministry.”
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/gospeldrivenchurch/2012/09/04/11-blessings-from-my-first-3-years-in-vermont-ministry/?comments#comments
It still hasn’t been approved – 😉
—————-
Jared
I’m in agreement when promoting the Bible and – “do whatever God’s word says.”
8. Congregational submission to God’s word.
“Back to *my church.*
I have been very blessed that these folks have a willingness to do whatever God’s word says.”
Was wondering – In “Your” church…
Do you call your self – Pastor? – Does anyone call you – Pastor?
Can “You” or anyone, produce – One Example…
In the Bible – Where one of His Disciples – Are “Called” – Pastor/Leader?
In the Bible – Where one of His Disciples – “Call themself” – Pastor/Leader?
In the Bible – Where one of His Disciples – Have the “Title” – Pastor/Leader?
In the Bible – Where one of His Disciples – Are Hired or Fired – as a – Pastor/Leader?
In the Bible – One congregation – “Led” by a – Pastor/Leader?
And every “Pastor/Leader” I’ve met – has the “Title” – Reverend.
In the Bible – Does any one of His Disciples – Have the “Title” – Reverend?
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**their shepherds** have caused them **to go astray,**
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as “sheep going astray;”
but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
————–
In my experience – NOT many have the courage to answer these questions – honestly.
I’m Blest – I’ve returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Eagle, I read that at IM. Have not read comments. Amazing, isn’t it? And people take McArthur seriously. Talk about proof texting and taking it totally out of it’s historical context.
Remember, McArthur violated Government back in the 60’s when he protested against laws in the South. I read he was even jailed. So when did he change his mind?
Eagle, this is another problem with the Reformed world view. they believe God put Assad (as an example) in power. It is the only logical outcome of their beliefs about the Determinist God. It never occurs to them that Satan roams this earth and is allowed to operate and we as God’s people are to be light. Since they believe we are automans and God decreed the evil, (they won’t admit this) there is no room for “usurping” what they think God is doing through dictators and brutal regimes. It is the part of the reformed thinking that scares me to death. Since everything is predetermined, we should not try to protect people from evil. They call doing such things, sin. I think they are only thinking of their own power when they teach such things.
I hope people are starting to see how this plays out when looking at the Lutheran church and the Nazi’s. There is a lot to be concerned about when it comes to the whole determinist God doctrine.
Anon1, the Reformed view is NOT determinism- the only thing “predestination” concerns is salvation, and even in that they believe man is free to choose, but until faith is imparted no unbeliever ever would.
Again, there is a lot of crazy stuff going on with these guys, but it is not the fault of the doctrine. None of this stuff about calling women to remain in abusive situations has anything to do with Calvinism.
Dee, I’ve been observing interactions of Calvinistas on Twitter. I was following some, but found the tone and behavior rude. The degrading of women publicly, trying to shut down civil communication is showing their true colors. Knowing this is happening in public should be alarming. Sadly, they will continue and put down you and me (women) who confront it. Thank God for Pastor Jeff Crippen who is challenging this sinful behavior. And yes, I believe it is sinful. It’s not cute or funny to trash talk anyone.
Julie Anne
But then, there are women like us who will not sit back and allow them to “gospel” report us.
Dee –
I’m still trying to figure why they might “gospel” report you. What did you do other than point out that someone was being “ungospel like” to the Tweeting world? Why would anyone be so put off by “gospel” correction?
Hmm . . . could it be that it was a woman who tried to reveal the issue? I wonder what Jared’s response would have been if Doug Wilson or John Piper or Ray Ortlund would have asked the question about his tweeting comments?
re: Dr Dorothy Patterson
Funny how there’s always exceptions for the wive’s of the ‘patriarchs’. She gets a job at the seminary where her husband, Paige Patterson, becomes President, while he participates in a Stalinist-style purge to oust women from teaching positions at his and other SBC seminaries and from positions of authority within the SBC organization.
Bridget, they sure as heck wouldn’t ask them how they are taking care of their wife. See, that is the typical question I encounter when confronting these men. They divert the topic and ask if I’m tending my husband and family. In their minds women have no business in their business.
Bridget
On Monday, I plan to propose a scenario that is being used to squelch people on twitter and emails. In fact, if i didn’t believe in free speech within the faith, I would be might tempted to do tit for tat. I shall hold myself to explaining it and let Twitter do their thing.
I am quite gospely gratified to see you using the word “gospel” as much as possible.
Julie Anne –
But this is “gospel wakefulness” business that has nothing to do with with gender according to Paul AND the Holy Spirit!! 😉
Ooooh…you have them on the run! No-one expects The Wartburg Watch…
Ugh. I’ll never forget a conversation I read on facebook recently. There is a group that has been exposing the abuses that have occurred because of ATI/Bill Gothard’s teachings, I think it’s called Recovering Grace. And one Bill Gothard fan commented to berate everyone for speaking against “Bill Gothard, prophet of God”. His reason? He said, “just look what happened to the Catholic church when their sexual abuse was exposed.” I had to read it several times to determine whether he was serious or sarcastic, but all his following comments proved to me that he was dead serious. I just cannot believe that this mentality exists in the church – protect the institution at all costs, drive the hurts underground. It is astounding to me.
Tell you one thing, Jan. All the sexual abusers in IFB, SGM, and whatever Three-letter One True Church acronym comes next are sighing with relief that “CATHOLIC = pedophile priest”. As long as everyone (including them) is pointing fingers at Those EEEEEEVIL Catholic Perverts, they can go NAMBLA or Jim Jones in their own churches without anyone noticing them.
Remember, McArthur violated Government back in the 60′s when he protested against laws in the South. I read he was even jailed. So when did he change his mind? — Anon1
Probably when he got old enough and powerful enough to become The Establishment himself.
“I Got Mine,
I Got Mine,
I don’t want a thing to change
Now that I Got Mine…”
— Glenn Frye
“Anon1, the Reformed view is NOT determinism”
We could spend years on this one but what would be the point? We would just end up disagreeing. :o)
Hester – the English Civil War (maybe “wars” is more accurate, since there were lulls and then outbreaks of fighting + Cromwell’s brutal invasion of Ireland) is fascinating – not least because we are dealing with a lot of the fallout from it here in the US… still. (People brought their church problems with them; in England Puritanism died out, whereas here… well. Hmm.)
As an aside, there are no Amish in Europe… the last Europeans who called themselves “Amish” died in the 19th c.
Yet another example of a church controversy/split (begun by a man named Jacob Amman) still flourishing in the New World…
That Macarthur interview is heinous and frankly evil (my actual words when reading it were ones I probably shouldn’t print here). There is not an iota of compassion or care in them. Reading them, I can just see Macarthur personally escorting Cambodian refugees back to the killing fields, sending child soldiers back to the DRC, etc, because it’s bad to dare to try to preserve your life and win your freedom.
And if he wants persecution because it’ll make his faith oh so pretty and pure, he can go to North Korea. The starvation will surely kick his piety along too.
And if he wants persecution because it’ll make his faith oh so pretty and pure, he can go to North Korea. The starvation will surely kick his piety along too. — Pam
What is it with the idea that God can only be Glorified if His people have to live under North Korean conditions? Where we bury half our kids from starvation or disease before they’re 12? Where we have to marry off women at 14 and have them drop a kid every nine months so two or three will live to adulthood? Where we “die of Old Age at 30”? And where the Government/Fearless Leader has an obsession with wiping Christians from the face of the earth?
I hear so much about “We Soft Spoiled Americans Don’t Know REAL Persecution — Wait til GOD Sends US Persecution to Grow The Church!!!!” — always spoken by rich megachurch pastors in million-dollar pulpits.
You know what this reminds me of? Ever read Guns & Ammo magazine in the Seventies — specifically their editorials? Or Soldier of Fortune magazine in the Seventies and Eighties?
All about “Spoiled Rotten Baby-Fat Americans” who would fall over weeping at the first sign of hardship (contrasted with the Fanatic Communist Supermen they WILL have to face to the death in the Coming World War Three). Snark after Snark about effeminate weaklings whining about “psychological problems”, without the REAL Maniless of Guns & Ammo or Soldier of Fortune. Even Mark “I Can Beat You Up” Driscoll couldn’t stand in comparison with such Hypermasculinity. Except the sign of True Manliness WASN’T wife-beating or MMA cage-fighting, but WAR WAR WAR WAR WAR.
“In the Grimdark Future, there will only be WAR!”
— Warhammer 40K
@ HUG:
“You know what this reminds me of? Ever read Guns & Ammo magazine in the Seventies — specifically their editorials? Or Soldier of Fortune magazine in the Seventies and Eighties?”
I’m tellin’ y’all, Christian Survivalism. Look it up. I’ve been told that R. J. Rushdoony had some kind of “mountaintop retreat” in the 70s; his son-in-law Gary North has a doomer website/newsletter; and the most popular survivalist blog on the internet is run by a Reformed Baptist Libertarian who links to Gary North on a regular basis and has a whole page providing theological justification for his survivalism. Peak oil, EMPs, hyperinflation, bird flu – take your pick. And all that stuff about weak, tubby Americans who will be dead meat after TEOTWAWKI (The End of the World As We Know It)? Standard fare. This is a real subculture of the Reconstructionist subset.
Frankly, now that you mention it, I’m a little surprised that Mark Driscoll HASN’T gotten into it, because a lot of these guys say things like, “I made the decision to build a fully stocked/armed retreat with four years’ worth of food to PROTECT MY FAMILY because I’m a GODLY MAN.”
Sometimes I think reading on TWW is hazardous to my health because I get worked up. Hester – the homeschooling community bought the whole 9/11 Gary North sell-everything-quit-your-job-join-a-commune-and-move-to-the-hills survivalist mentality like crazy. I’m pretty sure Gary North was even featured on Dobson and all over the national network news. I know for a fact that a number of my friends (ahem former quiverfull) still have buckets of wheat berries stashed away and most likely TVP (texturized vegetable protein) which they never used prior to the hype and will never use, period.
Gary North and his e-mail group got me into such an emotional frenzy, I had to stop reading it entirely. It was a Reconstructionist manipulative setup and he used Christians to start the frenzy. The homeschool movement was the perfect target because they are very vocal, focused and driven (and they can get their kids to participate in their agenda, too – OY).
@ Julie Anne:
Gary North has gone through a couple of different doom phases/fads. The first two (worldwide AIDS epidemic and Y2K) failed, and not enough time has elapsed yet for the third and current one (hyperinflation/catastrophic dollar collapse) to prove false. I’ve never actually read his newsletter, but I’ve seen excerpts from the 80s when AIDS was his hot thing. I also found an old website of his (dated, like, a decade or more ago kind of old) that never got taken down, wherein I caught him saying that “hierarchical governmental systems” or something like that were part of the Gospel. (And now that I’ve said that, I’m sure said quote will be scrubbed from the internet…forever…)
Woohoo!
OK. So I’m a little late to this party. But I’m so glad to see Pastor Crippen’s letter here! Actually, I’m a little late to that party too as I haven’t read over there in a while so I only just learned about it today. :/
But still.
I notice at Pastor Crippen’s blog they are discussing how to get his letter widely distributed. They’re talking about emails or snail mail, to pastors in particular.
What about pastors’ blogs, like Wade’s and imonk? I know there are others too. Pastors read pastors’ blogs, don’t they? Perhaps other pastors could help this along? Or anyone with a blog or connections to blog hosts?
It seems to me the readership would mushroom in no time flat.
Someone at Cry For Justice pointed out that October in national domestic violence awareness month, too….
Thanks Anonymous On,
You’ve got the right idea! Let’s keep this ball rolling!!
These suggestions could use many others with time, ideas, and connections to move things forward!
“I hear so much about “We Soft Spoiled Americans Don’t Know REAL Persecution — Wait til GOD Sends US Persecution to Grow The Church!!!!” — always spoken by rich megachurch pastors in million-dollar pulpits.”
JMHO: I *do* think that we Americans don’t know what “real persecution” is. We don’t know what it’s like to be threatened with death or overt, blatant discrimination for being Christians. And I think if such persecution ever did come to this country, there are plenty of “Christians” who would roll over and whine at the first whiff.
Also, I *do* think it’s wise to prepare for emergencies and keep a well-stocked pantry (which I do try to do.)
But I think the point other people may be trying to make is the hysteria going along with both topics. Am I right, or am I missing a point?
@Jan: Yes, the group you’re referring to is recoveringgrace.org. I have never been involved with Gothard or his teachings, but many of the stories I read at the website remind me of some of my own experiences in an abusive church.
Ha! Barb, I just read your comment allllll the way upstream. I see my idea of blogs picking this up is redundant. 🙂 That makes me very happy. 🙂
The command for Christians not to take each other to court, IMO, has nothing to do with this. That is about using the courts to get your own personal “pound of flesh” out of the other person. It is not about cases where an actual CRIME has been committed.
Please somebody tell me if I’m crazy, but that all makes sense to me…
Hester,
You are 100% absolutely correct. That passage is about small claims stuff, nickel and dime stuff that clogs up the system, NOT real crimes and certainly not Federal crimes!
So what were Jared C Wilson’s comments on Twitter? I haven’t seen them yet and they’ve been deleted from his page.
If the modern reformed movement is to reject reason, then they must also reject modern science
Eagle,
This would mean they’d give up the internet! YAY!!!! 😀
Anne
Tune into tomorrow. I will be posting his Tweet and mine, along with an analysis of the hardball game that some of the Calvinistas play. I believe in full disclosure and open myself up to critique for my words.
Dee –
So his Tweets are viewable to anyone with nothing was deleted? I don’t Tweet so I’m not up on the Tweeting world, but can you go back and delete your past Tweets if you so desire?
Maybe I’m old fashioned or something, but I just don’t need hourly or minute-by-minute updates on anything from anybody via Tweet or FB.
@Hester. Re: Gary North’s comment.
If you can find it again, screencap it. Just so you have proof he said it.
I shared a link to Pastor Crippen’s letter on Stuff Fundies Like forum. Not too many comments so far.
And all that stuff about weak, tubby Americans who will be dead meat after TEOTWAWKI (The End of the World As We Know It)? Standard fare. This is a real subculture of the Reconstructionist subset. — Heather
Don’t forget John Todd in the Seventies and Eighties. My writing partner showed me some of his Important Christian Alerts from back then. Jimmy Carter calling Helter Skelter and turning Charles Manson loose from prison to lead an army of convicts to ravage the land, helped along by Gun Control and the Federal Government. Nothing standing higher than your ankle from the West Coast to the East Coast. All orchestrated by Satan and his Illuminati. Godly Survival including survival refuges more than one tankful of gas from every major highway, with fields of fire all pre-registered. (Todd was later found to be a complete fraud and highly delusional, but his stuff was revered as the 67th book of the Bible in his heyday.)
And Survivalism plus Reconstructionism — survival refuges as little Galt’s Gulches to sit out the Apocalypse until John Galt leads them back to take over the world and make the Sign of the Dollar? Or is it Every Reconstructionist his own God-Anointed John Galt? (Because Atlas Shrugged is as much Apocalyptic Escape/Revenge fantasy as Left Behind; I tend to run the two together as twins separated at birth.)
Frankly, now that you mention it, I’m a little surprised that Mark Driscoll HASN’T gotten into it, because a lot of these guys say things like, “I made the decision to build a fully stocked/armed retreat with four years’ worth of food to PROTECT MY FAMILY because I’m a GODLY MAN.” — Heather
From what I remember of G&A and SoF, those guys were so Hypermasculine I-Can-Beat-You-Up Driscoll would have been a minthing, lithping drag queen in comparison.
Bridget
He could delete his tweet. However, it is trcky,especially if someone takesa screen shot. I do twitter differently. I send one M-F that hihglights something in the news that has relevance to the faith. Some people do send tons of them a day-I am going to the mall; I am at the mall, etc.
Dee –
I get your one-a-day Tweet. I have no problem with that. The way some people send so many makes me think that they feel very self important, and think that everyone wants to know what they are doing every hour of the day. Just don’t get that . . . I’m wondering if pastors want to be like movie/rock stars with their Tweeting 😉
sorry . . . make that “gospel” movie/rock stars with their Tweeting 🙂
@ HUG:
“And Survivalism plus Reconstructionism — survival refuges as little Galt’s Gulches to sit out the Apocalypse until John Galt leads them back to take over the world and make the Sign of the Dollar? Or is it Every Reconstructionist his own God-Anointed John Galt?”
If I’m remembering correctly, Gary North has said it would take a complete societal collapse to usher in the Reconstructionist vision. He’s basically correct, of course. Which could be why the Reconstructionist vision will never come about writ large without a second civil war.
And the Sign of the Dollar? Puh-leez. There will be no dollar. Aren’t you up on your prophecies? All fiat currencies will be DESTROYED in the coming Illuminati-orchestrated world economic collapse. And besides fiat currencies are sinful anyway because of 2 Corinthians 10:12. Only the GOLD STANDARD is BIBLICAL! There will also be WAR! And NUKES! Because! Flee to your bunker-gas station-farm-fortresses, saints of the Lord!
Isn’t it funny how Libertarian/Austrian economics somehow became the same thing as the Word of God. I guess this is what happens when a Ph.D. economist is one of the founding theologians of your -Ism? And yes, it is truly scary how popular Ayn Rand is in the conservative church, despite the fact that she was flagrantly and aggressively anti-Christian and anti-religion. (But many of these same people will not miss an opportunity to call you out for reading Harry Potter, which also allegedly anti-Christian.)
Actually the hot conspiracy theory this year is that Obama will orchestrate race riots to impose nationwide martial law and delay the election. (If it doesn’t happen, we will all suddenly forget en masse that the “undeniable proof” ever existed.) I’m serious, some of my Christian FB friends have actually been talking about this.
@ Tikatu:
Good idea. I really need to learn how to do that…
Addendum @ HUG:
“From what I remember of G&A and SoF, those guys were so Hypermasculine I-Can-Beat-You-Up Driscoll would have been a minthing, lithping drag queen in comparison.”
You’d think that would be motivation for Mark to up his game. After all, he wouldn’t want to be perceived as merely “anatomically” male. Seriously, you don’t think an AK-47 would look sexy strapped over that oh-so-tight plaid shirt? ; )
> Seriously, you don’t think an AK-47 would look sexy strapped over that oh-so-tight plaid shirt?
I think it would look more manly with one of his Mickey Mouse t-shirts.
Jim Bakker (yes, that Jim Bakker) is into the survivalist thing now that prison and Tammy Faye are distant memories. He’s hawking food buckets and solar generators on late-night TV.
There’s even a Jim Bakker Foodbucket Fanpage.
hester… about Driscoll, I dunno.
a couple of years ago he posted an FB update saying that he’d worn a v-neck shirt outside and got hit on by a gay man. He seemed very smug about it!
@ notastepfordsheep
So it could look like Mickey’s holding a gun? Just like all tough guy cartoon mice should?
Anon1,
“We could spend years on this one but what would be the point? We would just end up disagreeing. 😮 )”
The point is this- it is unfair and hurtful to say that someone teaches something they expressly do not, plus it undermines the point you are trying to make. You may find that the doctrine of predestination necessarily leads to determinism and therefore you rejected the doctrine of predestination. If you do, you are doing so based on logic and I have no problem with that. But to say people teach something they expressly do not is painting a whole group of people with a very broad brush very unfairly.
I believe in predestination. I do not believe in determinism. I think there are a lot of Calvinist preachers creating dangerous environments for women (and men, even) in their congregations by some of the things they say, but I do not think it is the fault of their doctrine of the sovereignty of God.
As I understand the goal of this blog, it is to not marginalize people for their beliefs in non-essential doctrines. I am a believer in predestination and I feel marginalized by the comments that lump me in with the likes of abusive pastors like Mark Driscoll.
JJ, I am sorry you felt marginalized. I have felt the same way about some of the comments making fun of politically conservative believers. I have just learned to ignore them.
Anon1, I appreciate that.
In the end, I think the issue of abuse, whether domestic or in the leadership of the church, is a big deal and I hate to see it clouded by other issues. I guess I was just emotionally responding to the idea of seeing the theology of the the Reformed believer who authored this open letter attacked when he’s really putting himself out there and standing for the oppressed. I admit I probably should just be better about letting stuff go.
Dee/Deb-
Someday when I’m independently wealthy, I’m going to do a documentary about TWW and SGM Survivors titled, “The Most Dangerous Bloggers in America”. I mean, my God, what is this country coming to when 3 women can write whatever they feel about men in authority? 🙂
On a more serious note, I think this open letter is amazing, just amazing. His sheer honesty about his own shortcomings, and the need to take a true gut check is one of the most honest things I’ve heard a pastor say in 30 years.
Eagle-
You said
“I would suggest that much of the modern reformed actually encourages criminal activity and is in violation of Romans 13”
I have a personal story along these lines…my family once sponsored an ex-con turned Calvinist. He actually lived in our home after his release from prison. It didn’t end well.
http://christianagnostic.wordpress.com/2012/08/14/claude-criminal-christian-calvinist/
doubtful,
You made my day! I hope Dee will add The Most Dangerous Bloggers in America to our list of “What the World Is saying about TWW”. 🙂
Hi there
This is off topic, but I thought I’d point out that there are a couple of us JJs here at TWW 🙂 The JJ without the US flag is me – I’m from South Africa.
JJ, maybe you could add a number or something to your name so we can avoid confusing our fellow commenters? I don’t want to sound pushy – just a suggestion!
Hi JJ in South Africa! Wow! JJ is a popular moniker here at TWW.
I agree. It would be good if we could distinguish between the two JJs.
You didn’t just blast with both barrels, Eagle. You ripped a full mag from a Vulcan Gatling!
“Actually the hot conspiracy theory this year is that Obama will orchestrate race riots to impose nationwide martial law and delay the election. (If it doesn’t happen, we will all suddenly forget en masse that the “undeniable proof” ever existed.) I’m serious, some of my Christian FB friends have actually been talking about this.”
I’ve heard this also. I’ve also heard that Obama won’t leave the White House if he loses the election.
Frankly, I think if he does lose this election, he’ll leave the White House with a “good bye and good riddance!”
I do twitter differently. I send one M-F that hihglights something in the news that has relevance to the faith. Some people do send tons of them a day-I am going to the mall; I am at the mall, etc. — Dee
“I made a poopie; I made another poopie; now I’m wiping; now I’m flushing…”
Then there was the one about the woman getting an abortion who twittered it blow-by-blow.
Why do you think they call them “twits”?
Twitter is very useful to follow real time arguments and pressing of people in power and in the press. All in real time.
Example: http://twitter.com/ggreenwald/with_replies
Thy Peace –
I was curious to see how the real time argument proceeded, but the link didn’t work 🙁
Once you click on the link, you can expand on some of the conversations and you will see it expand to a history of twitter posts that form a sequence of conversation. (sometimes a user can hide or delete his tweets and they will now show, but mostly all high profile users want the world to see their tweets …)
Bridget: Are you able to see the twitter feed of GGreenwald at all in your browser? If you do, if you wish to view conversation of selected twitter posts, you can expand on them and so on…
An example of a small conversation:
http://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/245222253472645120
Another one:
http://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/245162745845125120
A good one :
http://twitter.com/AmberLyon/status/244121478138847232
Some of the conversations get fragmented, but they can be seen in whole if you view a twitter feed of someone you like or following. When I say real time, of course you have to refresh your twitter feed or if you are signed in to twitter or not, it will add new tweets of the people you are following or viewing.
Twitter hashtags are also useful:
http://twitter.com/#!/search/?q=%23CNN&src=hash
Thy Peace –
Thanks. The second and third links worked. I can see that people use Twitter for different purposes, and with different outcomes as well.
“Actually the hot conspiracy theory this year is that Obama will orchestrate race riots to impose nationwide martial law and delay the election. (If it doesn’t happen, we will all suddenly forget en masse that the “undeniable proof” ever existed.) I’m serious, some of my Christian FB friends have actually been talking about this.” — Tina
Heard exactly the same rumor re Bill Clinton about Y2K. Complete with Undeniable Proof (TM).
I’ve heard this also. I’ve also heard that Obama won’t leave the White House if he loses the election. — Tina
Heard exactly the same thing about Clinton and Bush 43.
Anon 1, you are surprisingly ignorant regarding Luther.