"I can tell you now that I don't know anyone who regards complementarianism as a central matter of the gospel."
The Gospel Coalition (TGC) is putting much effort into clarifying its position on complementarianism vs. patriarchy. Don Carson's article What's Wrong With Patriarchy? was published on TGC's website a few day ago. He explains:
"In their defense of complementarianism, several Council members in The Gospel Coalition have been known to preface their remarks with the insistence that complementarianism is not to be confused with either patriarchalism or with mere traditionalism in men/women relationships. To some observers, however, all three expressions are roughly synonymous. So why do we insist on the difference?"
I am confused because some high profile members of The Gospel Coalition do equate complementarianism with patriarchy; however, when I sense confusion in the Calvinista camp, I take comfort in 1 Corinthians 14:33 (ESV), which states: "For God is not a God of confusion but of peace."
Carson goes on to explain that patriarchalism conjures up both good and bad images. For some who look favorably upon "Father Rule", it stands for order and stability. For others, it represents male oppression of women. Carson describes it this way:
"…for many others "patriarchalism" conjures up macho condescension toward women, self-promoting arrogance at the expense of "the little woman," and even (God help us) terrifying sexual abuse. Why would any Christian organization want to defend such grotesque distortions of what God has ordained?"
Carson next defines "traditionalism". Then he explains that the term "complementarianism" was coined by John Piper and his colleagues (back in 1987). As Carson confirms, this word did not have any negative connotations when it was invented; however, twenty-five years have passed and some of us see this word for what it is – a misnomer. I like the comment made by Mary Spaulding under Carson's post. She wrote:
"I read as much as I can about complementarianism but I still don't know what it means in every day life. I need specifics. What does it mean in the church? What does it mean in a marriage? It still sounds like 'men rule.' "
I also appreciated the remarks made by Jim who stated:
"As an outside observer of the Gospel Coalition who appreciates much of its emphases and theological vision, I am genuinely confused that this issue takes up so much "air time" on this site. Would someone please explain to me why complementarianism is a central gospel issue and not, say, infant (or believer) baptism?
Representatives of the evangelical Reformed tradition like Roger Nicole (to name one figure who was much celebrated on this site when he passed away) suggest that the "gospel center" includes a variety of "complementarians" and "egalitarians", both of which honor the Scriptures as the Word of God. But the Gospel Coalition does not allow for this honest difference in opinion on the Bible's teaching. Why not?
I don't mean to be a gadfly. I would really like to understand why the Gospel Coalition takes the position that it does. I am hoping that the promised Carson-Piper-Keller will shed more light on their reasoning."
Carson concludes with this explanation:
"In this case it is not so much a particular term that TGC wishes to defend, as the theological stance the term seeks to summarize, because we are convinced that the theological stance to which it refers is not only biblically mandated but also for our good—something to rejoice over rather than to rebel against. And we are unaware of any other word that encapsulates this position as well, while remaining relatively clear of distorting baggage."
I am deeply disturbed that Carson believes the term "complementarianism" properly communicates "biblicaly mandated" principles for our good. I believe those affiliated with The Gospel Coalition are in a closed system, and they are really good at talking amongst themselves. If they would get off the stage and come dialogue with us ordinary folk, they might discover how terribly confused we are. As we have discovered from our investigation, some Gospel Coalition Council Members (and their followers), equate patriarchy with complementarianism. One of the loyalist commenters has made that patently clear.
In our upcoming post, we will have much more on this topic as we show video clips which demonstrate tremendous confusion regarding "complementarianism".
Lydia's Corner: Genesis 28:1-29:35 Matthew 9:18-38 Psalm 11:1-7 Proverbs 3:11-12
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I’ve used the term *complementary* since high school geometry, but I must say, something certainly doesn’t square up here about this 25-year-old neo-logism, *complementarianism*. I wish The Gospel Coalition as a whole would figure out what they officially mean by it – define it and describe its applications and ramifications – so it isn’t the current ishy-squishy unhelpful and seemingly judgmental concept. It seems some consider it a hair’s breadth away from a plank of true orthodoxy, so if it’s really that “core” to “biblical”/”gospel-centered” Christianity, then it’s legitimate to challenge them to say exactly what they mean.
I for one am confused and cannot figure out their meaning. But I do know this. When you talk about a “closed system,” Deb, you’ve touched on a key issue. Any group that has such apparently stringent boundaries to keep “right” in and “wrong” out, but who talk in jargon and code that only insiders can truly understand, put themselves at risk of what Robert Jay Lifton described as “Loading the Language.” And that is #6 of the 8 classic criteria he identified as markers of “authoritarian cults.” It doesn’t mean they are a doctrinally heretical “cult.” But it does mean that their terms reduce complex problems to simplistic solutions, and condense categories into judgmental labels. It’s part of a system of “total thought control.” And thus, this issue should be taken as a warning sign to all.
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Brad –
You do realize that most churches that identify as Reformed” now use such language . . . that’s a wide warning. That’s not to say that I disagree with your warning.
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Bridget … yes, I understand that, and it’s scary. And perhaps particularly I’ve seen it taking root within the younger Neo-Reformed/Neo-Puritan crowd, which makes it all the more crucial for the “elders” of The Gospel Coalition and other such networks and movements to specify what they mean and make course corrections while they still can, before this “internal culture war” becomes institutionalized.
An “institution” has been sometimes been defined as an organization that lasts beyond two generations. This “complementarianism* question has not been clarified for one whole generation. If the term and all the issues stuck to it get transmitted with all that confusion intact into and past the so-called “young, reformed, and restless,” it will be institutionalized in these movements and thus, even harder to deal with a generation after them. And then, according to some thought on how to measure social change, it will take at least another generation after some significant change for such a significant clarification to get set as the new default. Here’s one of my favorite quotes for capturing that thought:
“In the long run, what counts is how the next generation thinks. How far new ideas permeate culture is not measured just by attitude change during one generation, but by what is taken for granted in the next.” [~ Helen Haste in *The Sexual Metaphor: Men, Women, and the Thinking that Makes the Difference*, page 149]
Also, when using the term “cult,” I try to be as clear and careful as possible – there is a distinction between sociological cults of the authoritarian kind that Lifton was studying when he conducted interviews with former prisoners of Maoist China in the 1950s, and our general understanding of anti-biblical cults based on doctrinal heresy. There is, however, an area of overlap between the two kinds. The warning was given to encourage those who most influence such movements to clarify where they stand in relation to these kinds of indicators, because there is a growing body of documented evidence online about various Christian churches, ministries, and networks that fit more than just criterion #6 of 8 as authoritarian cults.
It’s a serious issue, not just some silly fuss over some little theological concept. When some are talking as if complementarianism is *required* to be considered gospel-centered, then it is exclusionary. Do they mean that non-complementarians are Christians or not? Or that they are simply “not gospel-centered”? Or …
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I recently left my patriarchial, lutheran church. I am technically still on the roster so I can continue to be eligible for a parking permit, but I have not attended services for almost two months.
Now I feel very free, because I realize that these mysogynistic Lutheran and neoCalvinistic so-called Christians are no longer relevant to my life. Out there in the egalitarian world, there are many opportunities for me to serve. In the Christian world, I have no voice and am unimportant. While Piper and his gang are busy making a lot of noise, I am not sure how many people are listening to these wolves in sheeps clothing.
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Here’s why you won’t see these guys budge and why they will continue to “skirt” the issue:
Just watch this clip, starting at :50 – http://vimeo.com/21754490
Watch those faux “tough guy” swaggering posers.
Now imagine a pair of high heels walking among those boots.
Just imagine if they had to face a smart, intelligent, well-dressed, godly woman who would call them out for their phoniness, their primping, their air of superiority, their misogyny? They’d pee in their pants.
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@TedS – The Elephant Room clip almost sounds like “Hey Haters” in slow mo…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCW9-MglCsw
I much prefer the spoof myself.
In a few hundred years time when IT archaeologists are mining and scrubbing through the data, they’ll get to this stuff and go – ‘whoa….what was THAT?’
They really have no idea how they come across. A proud manpower enclave propped up by their followers. I’m glad there’s an electronic record of it all.
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That clip is hilarious, TedS. So open for parody. I almost laughed at the ‘let’s get seven guys and put them in a cage!’ bit. Ooh, are we so tough and manly! We need a tough and manly place to discuss the tough and manly things only our tough manliness can handle.
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On that Carson quote:
“In this case it is not so much a particular term that TGC wishes to defend, as the theological stance the term seeks to summarize, because we are convinced that the theological stance to which it refers is not only biblically mandated but also for our good—something to rejoice over rather than to rebel against. And we are unaware of any other word that encapsulates this position as well, while remaining relatively clear of distorting baggage.”
Despite what Carson says – and I can appreciate him as, maybe, better prepared to defend their position than others within their group – I do think it is a term they’re willing to defend. I am a bit confused at how that word can “encapsulate” that position “that well”, when it is something that they just came up with 25 years ago.
But maybe [Sarcasm!] the problem is not them but us, who do not understand (or do not want to understand) what they really mean [Sarcasm off]. And there you have the “complementariansm for dummies” or whatever other means to, supposedly, try to explain it… But it still remains unclear and the word is still in use.
If they could see the whole thing is so confusing to others outside their group and if the word really doesn’t matter at all, why not look for other words for the sake of clarity? But it seems to me that the word is mainly clear to them and that is what matters. It’s something to take in account, a kind of ‘red flag’ as Brad has said.
Another ‘red flag’, but maybe this is simply me, is when he said that this “is not only biblically mandated but also for our good—something to rejoice over rather than to rebel against.” Having been in a Christian group where healthy living and vegetarianism was pushed as “the right arm of the Gospel”, as God’s will for us and full sermons would be written about it, the way this was expressed certainly pushed the right keys to make me jump a bit. All that stuff about being “biblically mandated”, for our good and, especially, that it’s “something not to rebel against” seems very loaded to me. There’s an second side to those words which are not very nice for those who do not necessarily agree with complementarianism.
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It’s definitely loaded wording. It’s written in a much nicer and less combative way, but in some ways that makes it more insidious. Because it’s written nicely and ‘reasonably’, it is in some ways harder to criticise – because how can you criticise the friendly and ‘biblically mandated’ words of Don Carson?
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@ Teri Anne:
Which type of Lutheran church were you in? Was it Wisconsin synod? I am Lutheran and I have never heard of a Lutheran church that could be described as even remotely “patriarchal.” I would urge you not to judge all Lutherans by your (extremely unfortunate) experience. Most of them, far from being neo-Calvinist, have a very strong distaste/fear of Calvinism and have functionally or outright egalitarian marriages. Luther himself also had an extremely egalitarian marriage for his time.
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TedS
Mark Driscoll, in particular, seem to be very uncomfortable around women. In fact, his last book was primarily a treatise on why his wife is to blame for everything Mark finds bad in his life.
Many patriarchs knnow they have a problem. They define comp theology in amorphous terms but have trouble when if comes down to practical application. There is the infamous Piper “How not to upset any man when giving road directions” spiel. Driscoll, of course has had his issues. Then there are the Wilsons, et al. The moment these guys open their mouths to say “what to paractically do” they cause problems for themselves. So they retreat into theoretical discussion which have little relevance to day to day life.
They say that their view on the issue is “biblical” and they feel sorry for those of us who do not understand them but, “don’t worry, you probably are Christians.”This is a way to shut up those who are truly seeking. They, of course, do not believe that we are seeking, advanicng the idea we are all just a bunch of mlacontents that do not see the wisom of their “gospel” arguments.
I think the silliest argument is how comp marriages reflect and symbolize the relationship between the Father and Son. If this is their intent, I must say it is an abysmal failure. I have never once, in my well rounded Christian life, heard the following. “Oh, look at Bob abd Sue and their marriage. Because of them I now understand the Trinity.”
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They have a huge problem guys. The explosion of blogs discussing this matter is hurting not only the doctrine of comp but the income streams from it. This doctrine was even big in seeker mega’s during the 90’s and made a pile of cash in books, seminaris, marriage retreats, etc. They owned it. They were on stages telling us what to think. There was no real way to analyze the doctrine in a group setting because people weree only looking for answers from the “great men of God”. People want good Christian marriages and craved the formulas and rules assoc with comp (even though the applications were so different!) Just go look at the self help shelves at the bookstore to see why this worked for so long. Steps, formulas, rules for a better life. Same stuff repackaged in a comp doctrine.
But the application is a problem. Couples were spending a lot of time following the formulas, looking at each other, waiting around for husband to be the spiritual leader or whatever instead of abiding in Christ.
The explosion of blogs discussing this matter coupled with people who questioned the doctrine in the still of the night found many places to analyze it with others who knew scripture and shared sources. Or others who presented very biblical debates questioning some of the presuppositions. The comp guru’s no longer controlled the info or the interpretations. This has caused a lot of problems that we are seeing them try to address now. (Sex is a big one they are using)
Some of the reactions have been interesting. Soem guys like Russ Moore (now double dipping as a Dean at SBTS and pastor of Highview, Mohler’s church) said comp is wimpy and we need more patriarchy. Then we have guys like CArson who are admitting the “word” complementarian is confusing but the doctrine is sound. (They know they are up against it)
These guys have never had the nerve to show different interpretations from some of the best scholars out there like Gordon Fee or FF Bruce. Or even Katherine Kroeger. And my favorite Katherine Bushnell who really did a yeoman’s work on the faulty interpretations 100 years ago!
Bottomline? The comps/pats sell this doctrine as virtue when it is really a result of the Fall and a huge sin. Imagine. Selling a sin as virtue and millions fell for it. It is incomprehensible but it is true.
Why? Because it has always been about indoctrination and control. You should never think on your own…. There is only the Holy Spirit for them and they must teach YOU. They sold it based on making a bettr culture. But that comes from abiding in Christ and being like Him NOW. (And how in the world can a comp woman be like Christ since gender roles are so important in that bubble?)
But we know different, don’t we.
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“I have never once, in my well rounded Christian life, heard the following. “Oh, look at Bob abd Sue and their marriage. Because of them I now understand the Trinity.””
Right. And notice how this mapping to the Trinity leaves out the Holy Spirit. They do NOT want you to be guided by the Holy Spirit. It would mean they are not in control. It is that simple. I wish more people would get that part. It really concerns me.
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Martin, the word makes no sense because they coined a “softer gentler” term for a form of authority submission they hoped would not sound like patriarchy but is a form of it. The word has become meaningless and they are starting to figure that out. In fact, I would call this “redefining” something I have seen a lot of in many Christian circles. Piper is the master of it. Christian Hedonism. Scream of the Damned among other bizarre redefining. It is Orwellian.
I used to ask all the time on blogs…where is the comp Talmud so we can all be on the same page. When do boys becomes men so women can no longer teach them? Why is it ok to show a video of Beth Moore teaching men but she cannot be on stage teaching men in your church? Why can a woman witness to a man but the minute he joins the church she cannot teach him anymore? What if a husband becomes incapacitated? Is he still the leader of the home?
The list is endless. So they need a Talmud. Badly.
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Martins
I believe that they push the words “biblical” and “gospel” as a means to make others agree with them. I think, deep down inside, they know they have a problem. They are unable to articulate in any clear fashion what comp looks like in real life. When they try to get specific, they come off sounding weird like the Piper comment on giving road directions in such a way you do no usurp a man’s leadership.
They use the same tactic that some of the more rabid young earthers use in their defense. “It’s OK, you are proably still a Christian but you are skirting quite close to the edge.” They use the “biblical” argument because they cannot well justify their position scientfically and they know it but will never admit it.
I ad this idea recently. I thought i might start telling people that we have a comp marriage and challenge any comp looking at it to prove me wrong. You see, I don’t think they can because they do not have a firm grasp on what they are saying.
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“I thought i might start telling people that we have a comp marriage and challenge any comp looking at it to prove me wrong. You see, I don’t think they can because they do not have a firm grasp on what they are saying.”
And this is exactly what started happening after a while. People called themselves comps but were really functioning as mutualists in their marriages. Submitting to one another (I think there are about 58 one anothers in the NT and they always leav e out Eph 5:21 or explain it away).
This really bothers them. Russ Moore even wrote an article about it for the Henry Institue a few years back.
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Anon1
“What if a husband becomes incapacitated? Is he still the leader of the home” That is why Piper tried to push the Ian and Larissa marriage along with his book on leadership in marriage. We featured that story. They made a major misstep and that story ended up making a lot or people deeply uncomfortable. Whenever they try to “prove ” how to do it, they consistently step in it so they resort to whining “it’s biblical” to shut others up.
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Anon1
I remeber that there was some book and speaker back in the 90s telling women not to study the Bible more than their husbands and not to go to Bible studies because the husband must always be a leader. i knew about 10 women who quit going to Bible studies because they didn’t want to surpass the knowldege of their husbands. Of yeah, many of these husbands were out there working 80 hours a week, trying to acheive these Dallas dream of a huge house on a zero lot line and new cars every year. So it ended up being dumb and dumber in these homes.
Ol Dee thoought then that something whacky was going on. Do you remember anything about this?
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Coming from someone who was once into the whole patriarchy thing, at least Doug Philips and Doug Wilson and Phil Lancaster and the like give you “practical” ideas as to how complementarianism is supposed to look! (And I thought I would never have anything nice to say about these guys 😉
When I chose to live that lifestyle, I knew that I was to always ask my husband for permission to do things, to defer to him in ALL things, to ask him what his vision was and then see what I could do to further it, etc. etc. And for the guys? Well, they are supposed to order out their wives activities and days and to “train” their wives to do housework according to the husband’s chosen schedule. They are to approve all curriculum choices, all clothing, and everything else that comes in the house. They are to lead their wives in all things and make ALL decisions.
The men TGC *know* what they believe about “complementarianism” and how they think it should look, deep down. But they don’t want to say it aloud. First, because they might actually have to put into words and then be held accountable for how “unBiblical” it truly is. And second, because if they dare put complementarianism in practical terms, they could be challenged to support their view and end up losing the power they so crave.
I feel for these people because the idolize power. They want to be macho men who dominate women. They just don’t recognize it in so many words.
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Commenter Jim in the article above makes a very good point. Baptism affects the day-to-day operations of the church just as much as, if not more than, comp vs. egal. And yet TGC, I assume, has both paedobaptists and credobaptists as members. Why, then, the resistance to including egalitarians? It’s not as if baptism isn’t an equally touchy issue (see IFB websites that proclaim paedobaptists to be SATANIC DECEIVERS!!! in 72-point blood-red Comic Sans).
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No More Perfect
My husband choosing my clothes??? It is really vice versa-he needs my help for his wardrobe. Dang rebel that I am. No wonder some of these families look a bit dorky.
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NMP
Revelation thanks to you! I always wondered why the Duggar girls wore those long jean ad khaki skirts with polo shirts. That is exactly the type of outfit that some men would pick out-khakis and polos are a staple. So dad is “advising” Michelle to dress the girls like him.
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Hester
I think TGC believes that we are all equally deceived but have learned, via marketing consultants, how to spin it.
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Dee, oh yes! This may be a tenet of the more extreme cases of patriarchy, but yes, I knew lots of men who would either go purchase their wives clothing and bring it to them, or would have to approve all purchase before the tags were taken off and the clothes washed. Was it modest? Was it in the color/style the husband/father preferred? Etc.
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I do want to add that my husband was never like this. In fact, he wasn’t the one that introduced the patriarchy lifestyle to our family: it was me. :-/
My husband is egalitarian through and through. When he didn’t measure up to what I thought a patriarchal husband should do, I viewed him as a failure. 🙁 He never told me what to wear or how to order my days, and, egads! he encouraged me to go out at least once a week with my friends or by myself, to get away from the house! I am so grateful that he wasn’t carried into patriarchy the way I was.
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“I am Lutheran and I have never heard of a Lutheran church that could be described as even remotely “patriarchal.””
Hester, I am glad that has been your experience.
I don’t believe, any more, that there are any denominations or associations of churches which are free from patriarchy or abuse or narcissism or any other curse. It must still be possible for there to be individual congregations which are, on the whole, healthy. I am sure that some groups of churches have fewer problems because of their doctrines or practices or approaches, but it only takes one person to make a healthy church begin to twist around to become a small kingdom where Jesus is not the King.
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It’s all very confusing to me. By no means does the word complementarian
define, with accuracy, all that the proponents of complementarianism wish for it to say. Moore says the word should be patriarchy. Piper says women must talk in certain ways and with certain tones. Kassian says women can work and, by being a complementarian, this in NO way means a woman must stay at home. Others have taught the opposite-that a woman must be a keeper of the home.
Then there is the whole spiritual leader of the home aspect which has yet to be defined, for me anyway. Just what does a spiritual leader do for his wife that is necessary for her salvation (enduring or persevering) and or sanctification that she and the Holy Spirit cannot accomplish? I recently asked Jared Wilson in a comment to please specifically define what he meant when he said that a husband “nourishes and protects” his wife (spiritually speaking–not merely your husband feeding you cheesecake with his arm around you-which would be very nice btw), evidently something needed that a wife cannot do for herself and he did not reply.) So, to me, the spiritual leader aspect is vague. Some say the husband is a prophet priest and king of the home, others say no one is anyone’s priest…Jesus is our only Mediator. Priest doesn’t mean a real priest…it means something else. Prophet is not a real prophet. Pretend prophet then?
I sometimes wonder if they get up in the morning and thnk–now, how can I further confuse the masses with more comp/speak? And I wonder how their marriages play out in real life. Unless in a heavy duty patriarchal setting ala Voddie Baucham, where your actions are indeed closely monitored and all must comply (he once stated that if a man in his church did not agree to teach his son the way he teaches the men to teach them, he would be asked to leave “his” church), how do we know they even practice what they declare is biblical and necessary? I cannot know. But biblical they say it is–to the point that I remember Bruce Ware stating in a message that women are in rebellion against God if they do not ascribe to comp teachings. He insinuated their salvation would be in jeopardy.
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dee – These men at the TGC would probably scoff at the idea that complementarianism means picking out their family’s clothing, but when you follow the whole “husband as authority of home,” it necessitates that it will carry over into mundane things like clothing choices.
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Anon 1,
Excellent comment! Let’s keep calling them out on these extra-biblical issues.
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Anon 1 said “Bottomline? The comps/pats sell this doctrine as virtue when it is really a result of the Fall and a huge sin. Imagine. Selling a sin as virtue and millions fell for it. It is incomprehensible but it is true.”
Amen!
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Diane said:
“I sometimes wonder if they get up in the morning and thnk–now, how can I further confuse the masses with more comp/speak?”
Pretty sure they are constantly in search of new ways and words to perpetuate a false teaching to make it somehow more palatable. It’s a never-ending maze designed (imo) to confine/contain women within the parameters they specify. That involves the misuse of words and terms in scripture that are incorrectly applied to the relationship between two adults in the context of marriage.
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Dee,
I have noticed that Piper’s comment about directions is frequently stated. That was written 20 plus years ago. Does anyone know if Piper still thinks this? It just seems very different than when he had Joni speak at one of his conferences.
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I do appreciate the comments that “Jim” made on the post at TGC. I hope more people start piping up with that question. I wonder how many people don’t realize how hard complementarians are trying to push their agenda.
My grandparents were over a few weeks ago and I made them aware of the whole Jared Wilson and DW fiasco from several weeks ago. They have been Christians for going on 40 years and they were shocked that this is something going around in churches. This points me to the fact that so many people might not even know that such an extra-biblical viewpoint is being pushed into our churches.
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With Complementarianism (one of those long compound words you only find in German, Communism, and Theology), shouldn’t that icon at the top have a red circle-and-slash over the female?
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With asides into the erotic potential of both ends of the alimentary canal.
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These are the “false brethren” Paul warned believers about:
But it was because of the false brethren secretly brought in, who had sneaked in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, in order to bring us into bondage. Gal 2:4
But we should not yield in subjection to them for even an hour…..Gal 2:5 (paraphrased)
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They harp on John Piper’s quote about asking egalitarian’s, ‘what does it mean to be a man and not a woman?’ or’ what does it mean to be a women, and not a man?’
I would guess their term, ‘biblical manhood and womanhood’ would be the right answer. What does that mean? It seems to change with the seasons.
They also like to use made up terms, and give the reasons of semantics for the excuse for why they are needed. ie: sameness, etc. No other circle uses these terms, and they are NOT in the dictionary – yet are to make sense.
Then they like to use well understood terms, and place some comp spin on it to show how they ‘fit’ these definitions. They don’t tell you about the spin of course – your suppose to figure that out for yourself.
They also like to ask for dialog, debate on their stand versus other belief systems. Yet they moderate their comments into the recycle bin, and never take up the challenge.
They claim they are counter culture.
I guess they don’t read about culture to much, because heck you see their tactics used in politics for example all the time. They talk over or totally ignore basic facts. THEN feel they won.
They call other people ‘confused’? lol now wrap your head around that for a moment to see if that makes any sense either.
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HUG – you are utterly hilarious.
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Sincere
Today, I tweeted a quote by CS lewis that was written over 50 years ago. is it any less relevant? Do we ask if he still believed it at the time of his death? I just Googled the statement by Piper. If he does not believe it, there has been no easily accessible public effort to say “Gee, made a mistake. Sorry.”
If one then takes a number of Piper’s statements over the last couple of decades there seem to be an entrenching of his perspective, not a backing away. But, if he disavowed this statement and you know where he did so, I will reprint it. I may have missed something over at his website. He is fortunate. He has a means to correct his mistakes rather easily and a group of followers who would speak solemnly of his repentance.
Joni spoke. as evidence that Piper is softening a bit? Joni spoke because she agrees with Piper’s paradigm or he would not have allowed her to speak. It is like the women who write on TGC. They are allowed to do so because they are women who represent TGC’s “biblical” perspective. They desperately need to feature women because they know that said perspective is not gaining traction within the female population. In fact, there is increasing resistance to their statements which are getting wide play on the Internet. (See the recent Doug Wilson imbroglio).
Oh yeah, speaking of that Joh Piper recently said how much he loves Doug Wilson’s theology and that he gets it right. Does that sound like a Piper who is backing down or a Piper who is revving up?” Conquer, plant, colonize and onward Christian soldiers!
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“we are convinced that the theological stance to which it refers is not only biblically mandated but also for our good—something to rejoice over rather than to rebel against”
Hm. I echo the comments which state that this is worded “nicely” but ultimately masks something a lot harsher.
Look at the last phrase. “Rebel against?” Anyone who knows much about egalitarianism knows that most egalitarians aren’t “rebelling” against anything…they’re trying to FOLLOW what they believe the Bible is teaching. To insinuate that rebellion is the motive behind the non-comp movement is not only inaccurate, but it reveals that he is NOT making a nicey-nice statement about why comp-ness is okay—he’s actually giving a veiled attack to the other side.
It’s either purposeful, or he is uninformed about egalitarianism and has just been told that it is all a bunch of axe-grinding feminism. If that is the case, then he should not be writing about something before he has researched it.
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Diane
I think they get up in the morning and realize that they are not well defining the issue. Everytime they speak, people point out serious inconsistencies. So, they feel they need to clarify. When they clarify, people get even more confused. They are on a merry go round of trying to define a rather difficult concept that seems to have many different interpretation. Work-don’t work; Teach; dont’ teach; Cook; don’t cook…. They are confused as is everyone else but they cannot admit it because, well, they are the leaders.
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Dee/Deb/Anyone else – is there a blog list somewhere that shows what men in the blogosphere are egalitarian and are speaking out against Piper/TGC/etc?
I can easily find blogs written by women who are egalitarian but I’d love to know that some men are doing the same. It just seems that this whole issue has big dogs going at it on the comp issue, but I don’t see any on the egal side.
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sad observer
It also seems to me that they could not define what is rebelling except two limited ways-women pastors and elders. They disagree on just about everything else.
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Wonder if anyone has ever confronted the comps with this scripture and what their response would be?
The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does; and likewise also the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. 1Cor. 7:4
What kind of double-talk would they come up with? lol
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Why do some of them – chalies, Piper, teach a woman cannot recite scripture in a church (building)? I know they say it is because the woman would be “teaching” (just by reading a verse or two) and there are men in the congregation. But didn’t Jesus do that very thing when he instructed Mary to go and tell His disciples that He had risen? John 20:17-18. Jesus entrusted those precious words-scripture, to Mary, a woman, with instructions to go and TELL. Mary came to the disciples. Were they together in a “church” meeting (however they did it back then) when she announced to them what the Lord had said to her? Maybe they were! So-Jesus can use women to recite His words, yet certain pastors forbid it? I would be strongly considering that if I were such a pastor.
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@ Heather:
“I don’t believe, any more, that there are any denominations or associations of churches which are free from patriarchy or abuse or narcissism or any other curse. … I am sure that some groups of churches have fewer problems because of their doctrines or practices or approaches…”
Very true. I think each denomination is prone to its own type of problem. Lutherans (as a group) aren’t prone to patriarchal/authoritarian abuses; they tend to be more prone to slack off on Bible study and/or hook into “touchy-feely” stuff (i.e., Rick Warren) that ultimately fails to promote growth. Calvinists are prone to hyper-self-examination to the point of depression, many strains of Baptist are prone to ridiculous legalism (esp. about the mode of baptism), and many non-denominational churches are prone to pastor/praise band worship. It’s all depends on the church’s theology and how it forms itself into a church culture.
However, I would still say that, as a general rule, a mainstream, moderate to left-leaning Lutheran church would probably be good to escape to if you are fleeing patriarchy and its culture. Note: I said GENERAL rule. There are, as always, unfortunate exceptions.
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Victorious – that verse is the very one that made me start questioning the whole patriarchy/comp issue. Of course, if you ask Doug Wilson, via his Fidelity book, it means that yes, the woman has authority during sex, but only under the authority of her husband. HUH?
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@ Diane:
Does Piper teach that now too? Because that practice is ridiculous. One has to ask why they still let the women sing, since hymns are described as a way Christians “teach and admonish” one another (Colossians 3:16). Or why they use hymns with words written by women (like Fanny Crosby – she cropped up a lot in the PCA hymnal).
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No More Perfect on, here’s a start:
Jon Zens
http://www.searchingtogether.org/free-to-function.htm
Stan Gundry
http://www.cbeinternational.org/?q=content/bobbed-hair-bossy-wives-and-women-preachers
Frank Viola
http://frankviola.org/role.pdf
Ben Witherington
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2006/02/literal-renderings-of-texts-of.html
Philip Payne
http://www.pbpayne.com/
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@ Victorious~
I remember Doug Wilson considering that verse in his colonize and plant book. IIFC–he basically said that men lead women in their authority over their (men’s) bodies. He teachers her what that all means and guides her. He leads her in her authority. I could try to find the exact quotes if anyone cares…I really don’t because, well, he pretty much disgusts me.
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Ooops, awaiting moderation because of several links.
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Diane, the Fidelity book is on Google Books, I think, so if anyone wants to do their own search. . .
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Well, the book used to be on Google books. . . can’t find it now.
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@ Hester~
It’s all about being up front of the congregation and in front of the pulpit, which symbolizes pastoral authority or some such thingy.
Piper does say you don’t have to agree with him…so I guess this is not in the definitive comp-manual so to speak? 🙂
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij9i5pO9zew&feature=related
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Deb wrote of a “Loyalist Commenter” at TGC who equates coplementarianism and patriarchy. Knowing who “LC” would be, and of the maddening personal attacks he’d be making, I was still drawn to read the comments, as I would be to a train wreck. This exchange (omitting the moderator’s appeal to stop) says something of great importance.
Loyalist Commenter (L C):
A simple test: Ephesians 5 tells wives to submit to their husbands and the husbands to “love their wives as Christ loves the church” (i.e. self-sacrificially). That’s not egalitarian; it is hierarchical. To teach egalitarianism is to teach contrary to that.
Laura:
If I always replied to my husband’s “I love you” with “I submit to you” it would break his heart. L C, does your wife (if any) love you? Don’t you want her to?
L C :
You’re not dealing with the Word of God. You consistently fail to take God’s Word seriously and want to deflect to other things, feelings, etc.
Laura:
I take that as a “no”. Wow.
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No More Perfect on,
I’ve provided a list of egal male teachers along with links, but it’s awaiting moderation because of multiple links.
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What gets me, is the whole “complementarian” phenomena was a reaction to what was going on in our culture. They (TGC, CBMW, and whoever jumped on the bandwagon — patriarchs?) saw this change in the culture (mainly feminism) as a threat to godliness? salvation? traditionalism? the Gospel? men? I don’t think they know what it was a threat to. They wanted to “counter” what they didn’t agree with and get their teachings into the churches.
I think it was a movement based on fear and it was produced from the flesh and not as a work of the Holy Spirit. If our lives are one in Spirit with Christ, then why this division of male/female and who has final “authority.” The issue has divided the Church and is continuing to divide the church.
Now it has become such an issue that they have to be “right” or they have to repent because they have divided the Church. They have teachings tying complementarianism to the Trinity and statements that say “if we don’t get this right, then we can’t get the gospel right.” These groups also write the importance of complementarianism into their purposes and affirmation statements. So, THEY SAY IT’S NOT A SALVATION ISSUE AND IT’S NOT CENTRAL TO THE GOSPEL, BUT THEY TEACH CONTRARY TO WHAT THEY SAY! And then THEY write things like “Complementarianism for Dummies.” (I think this is an insult to all those who don’t understand THEIR confusion — cause you really should be able to get this ya know!)
Do we live by the flesh or by the Spirit?
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@ Hester and No More Perfect on~
It is no longer a google book…interesting. You can access chapter 12 here which discusses 1 Cor 7 & and the wife’s authority over the husband’s body and his take on that.
http://www.amazon.com/Fidelity-What-Means-One-Woman-Man/dp/1885767641#reader_1885767641
A quote: “He is responsible for his authority over her, but he is also responsible for hers over him.” (chpt 12 pg 128)
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No More Perfect on, I’ll put them in separate posts to avoid the moderation necessity. This is in response to your request for some egal men. Here’s one:
Jon Zens
http://www.searchingtogether.org/free-to-function.htm
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Here’s the second egal male:
Stan Gundry
http://www.cbeinternational.org/?q=content/bobbed-hair-bossy-wives-and-women-preachers
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Third
Frank Viola
http://frankviola.org/role.pdf
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Fourth: (only 1 more after this…:)
Ben Witherington
http://benwitherington.blogspot.com/2006/02/literal-renderings-of-texts-of.html
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oops–the above should be @ Victorious not Hester–it was Victorious who asked about wife’s authority etc.
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Last I have, but others may have additional:
Philip B. Payne
http://www.pbpayne.com/
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What about that Australian Anglican minister, Kevin Giles? I remember he was mentioned in another thread discussing the issues around the doctrine of eternal subordination of the Son and its application to complementarianism. Looking around the web I found some documents written by him but I haven’t been able to read them yet.
This is a PDF file with his response to a complementarians conference (or, as he called them, “Hierarchical-Complementarians”) from the year 2010:
http://www.anglicanstogether.org/files/Hierarchical_conference_booklet_Jan_2011.pdf
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RE: Anon 1 on Fri Aug 17, 2012 at 09:04 AM,
“…And my favorite Katharine Bushnell who really did a yeoman’s work on the faulty interpretations 100 years ago!…”
She’s my heroine too. And intellectually? Bushnell can fly circles around any of these guys, anytime, anyplace.
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Muff Potter,
I agree about Bushnell! I got her copy of God’s Word to Women nearly 30 yrs. ago when it was being distributed by a gentleman in upstate NY who didn’t want to see the book disappear. His name was Ray Munson.
The entire book is now online at godswordtowomen.org.
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http://vimeo.com/7396652
CJ Mahaney makes it pretty clear in this clip just how central to the Gospel he believes complementarianism to be.
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RE: Diane on Fri Aug 17, 2012 at 10:56 AM,
I think it stems from an implied view of St. Paul as a sort of new Moses to the gentiles, complete with the Almighty still thundering from Sinai through the pen of Paul.
Any protest or dissent to the contrary is always shut down as Dee has pointed out with appeals to the “authority of Scripture” or even charges of “heresy” leveled at those who disagree.
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Wouldn’t these guys be a LOT happier in Talibani Islam?
Everything spelled out in detail by Strict Sharia, down to the Proper Islamic beard length and style, which position to sleep in, and exactly how to beat your women. And Strict Quiverfull Complementarianism and dress codes for women so they cannot cause men to stumble. Religious Police to enforce Righteousness. And polygyny, so a Mullah Schaapf has no problem with his latest 17-year-old.
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Patti –
That video would have been nice to have embedded into my comment at 11:57. That, along with what was written over at TGC this week, and the articles over at Mary Kassian’s blog that are jumping through hoops to make “some” point that no one gets, completely prove the point of Deb’s article.
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For me it has been out of the frying pan into the fire!
I fled these overly patriarchal types who see the man as god in his own little kingdom, but unfortunately the egalitarian church I found has gone overboard the other way.
Sorry, conceiving of the Trinity as Creator, Redeemer, Sustainer or Eternal Majesty, Eternal Word, and Eternal Empowerer doesn’t seem to be the right answer either.
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Another good comp: Gordon Fee
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NGhHU0h1RM – a great non-comp view on Ephesians 5:18-33
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No More Perfect,
You said that you were the one who was more in to Patriarchy than your husband was. That is the case with me as well. Like your husband, my husband never treated me the way so many of these men teach – micro-managing, etc.
I have a question for you. What do you think attracted you to the Patriarchal lifestyle? So often it is assumed that Patriarchy is a man-led movement when really, there are also many women attracted to it who take it much more seriously than their husbands. Do you have any thoughts on what attracts women to it? Is it just because we get convinced it’s biblical? Or because of the promise of ‘perfect’ marriages and ‘perfect’ children? Or because of the Do’s and Don’t’s it offers? Or… and I am beginning to wonder if this is what attracted me… is it a world in which we women get to prove just how ‘godly’ we are by being submissive, organized, super-women with angelic children. I found that as a Calvinist, I was constantly desperate for evidence of the ‘good fruit’ in my life that salvation was supposed to bear, and I think that Patriarchy offers thousands of ways for women to do that. Give up pants for skirts. Make that hemline a little longer. Button up one more button. Give up pain-killers in child-birth. Give up career. Give up education. Give up voice. Never question husband. Produce perfectly obedient children (no matter how many times a day you have to spank them). Bake your own bread. Grind your own wheat. Milk your own cow. Make your own yogurt. Sew your own skirts. Grow your own vegetables. House perfectly clean at all times. Start a home business. Homeschool. Do it all. Do it yourself. Do not ask for help. NEVER accept government help in any form. Pinch pennies. Cloth diaper. On and on. Ways for women to prove their worth under their curse. What do you think?
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“I have noticed that Piper’s comment about directions is frequently stated. That was written 20 plus years ago. Does anyone know if Piper still thinks this? It just seems very different than when he had Joni speak at one of his conferences.”
Just a few years back Piper was teaching that women should ‘endure abuse for a season’. We have his promotion of Driscoll and now Wilson the pro slavery guy patriarch. And recently he announced women could not read scripture aloud at his church.
http://strivetoenter.com/wim/2009/08/21/john-piper-on-submission-in-abuse/
Anyone want your daughter taught that?
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Muff, I gotta agree. Bushnell’s exegesis of all the passages they use to pull women down make these guys look like they are stuck in middle school proof texting contest. The woman submitted her lessons to scholars all over to critique and added their comments in footnotes! Now that is humility.
And this was back when it was hard to get the resources for such study. I am so glad they put it online for free. I bought the book and it is dog eared and marked up like crazy. I checked everything she wrote. Took me 3 years. She was an incredible woman. Her lessons are a gift. She taught herself Greek and Hebrew and was a missionary and medical doctor to boot!~
God’s Word to Women. Read it guys! You will NEVER read the bible the same way again.
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“fled these overly patriarchal types who see the man as god in his own little kingdom, but unfortunately the egalitarian church I found has gone overboard the other way.”
I hear ya. Same here. People tend to “overcorrect” any movement.
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Ohhhh,
1 Cor 7 and authority ala Wilson style.
“This means he must love her sexually as he wishes, and he must teach her to wield a biblical authority over him sexually. If their relationship is to reflect the pattern found in Scripture, then he must teach her, and then teach her to teach him.”
http://www.credenda.org/archive/issues/9-2husbandry.php
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Martin, I read both Giles’ books on the ESS controversy. The guy took a beating in the public square but his books are awesome. You know what he showed? The patriarchs were actually EDITING Anthanasius’ writings to fit their premise to sell this doctrine as old and orthodox! You cannot trust what comes from these guys. I see redefining words, redefining concepts, changing words in scripture they quote, etc, quite a bit. Beware. check everything.
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Anon 1~
“God’s Word to Women. Read it guys! You will NEVER read the bible the same way again.”
I have it sitting on my bedside table and have not started it yet. I have had it for a few months. You are getting me fired up to read it!!
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Anon1
What is the word the Calvinistas like? Trajectory-yep that’s it. What is Piper’s trajectory since the infamous how to give a man road directions? Certainly seems to be more and more limiting.
But, I have to give him his due. He wrote a post letting me know that I don’t have to ask my husband if I can go to the bathroom. That was a daily burning issue for me. It was hard finding men at Talbots to ask if I could use the bathroom. My life has improved dramatically.
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Dee – that could get embarrassing for all those quiverfull types with their ahem bladder issues.
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Dee-I smiled at your response:) Good point.
Others-Piper is teaching that women cannot read Scripture in church? Oh wow. He has jumped into the realm of the absurd. Can someone point out where he says that at?
Finally, I think Piper and Grudem are generally kind of nerds who are disconnected from the reality that is happeneing with their teaching. They are crossing their i’s and dotting their t’s (intentional transposition) but clueless as to how people are living out what they are teaching. I wonder if Piper would think the brain damaged guy should be the boss of the harvard educated MBA woman if they are in the business world together.
I cannot stand the complementarianism, but equally hate the caricatures of egalitarianism that comps make and the caricature of comps that egals make. It disgusts me in the same way Fox News and MSNBC disgust me (i.e. Beck and Olbermann both stink). I am starting to feel the same about the majority of advocates for both comps and egals. Both sides need to stop with the caricatures. Not all egals are the same and not all copms are the same.
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PS – To set the record straight – I have a quiverfull, but I’m not Quiverfull and I’ve never asked anyone to go pee, tyvm.
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“I have it sitting on my bedside table and have not started it yet. I have had it for a few months. You are getting me fired up to read it!!”
Eat your wheaties! It is not bedtime reading. :o)
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Diane
Hmmm I bet the Internet world might find that interesting. Where did these guys come from? Sometimes I feel like I have entered Twilight Zone Christianity. There was this Twilight Zone episode in which a guy found himself driving on a road to no where. I feel the same way with some of this stuff. Well, pardon me, I need to use the bathroom and I do not need to ask anyone to do so. Such a freedom…
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@ sincere~
“Others-Piper is teaching that women cannot read Scripture in church? Oh wow. He has jumped into the realm of the absurd. Can someone point out where he says that at?”
Up in the thread (11:18) I posted a video-someone else may have more info.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij9i5pO9zew&feature=related
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Anon 1,
it certainly looks like quite a few were not very happy with what Giles has written… I’m looking for information on the issues you mention and I’m getting many more results than I expected. It makes it a bit harder to find the specific case you mention about Athanasius.
And you’re right about checking everything. I’ve seen quite a bit of “proof-texting” and people changing words and their meanings in my life, but not necessarily coming from evangelicals. Interesting, in a bit disturbing way.
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Jan – I’ll have to think on it, but initially I will say that I believe my attraction to it was because I wanted perfect children. No lie. When you read the hyper-pats, that is essentially what they promise. And of course, even if you don’t go so far as, say, Doug Phillips, version of patriarchy, the John Piper’s and TGC guys made it quite clear in my mind (at the time) that it was the only true and Biblical way to view gender. And so I was also afraid that if I didn’t believe that way, I was displeasing God and truly blaspheming the Lord. So, perhaps it started as a mixture towards having the perfect family and also out of a huge fear. I can write more as I have time. Good question, Jan!
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As a single adult woman in my early 50s, complementarianism does absolutely NOTHING for me. And please don’t tell me that I should be under my father (as some men will tell you). My father is in the early stages of memory loss. Today, he thought I was with my mother in another state on urgent family business, when in fact my brother is with my mom. He remembered after I reminded him. I love my dad dearly and it bothers me a lot to see him deteriorate like this, but it also makes me glad that my dad insisted that his daughters should be able to take care of ourselves like any man.
But seriously, the preaching about complementarianism emphasizes the idea that the status of every adult male and female among some Christians is to be married. *shakes head* I guess in the Calvinista world, you can’t be a single and/or never married adult?
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NMP,
Looking very much forward to hearing any more of your thoughts! Thanks! I agree that wanting perfect children was a BIG thing for me too.
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The funniest part about men returning to patriarchy would be: men between the ages of 20 – 45 would not be the heads of their households – their fathers would be (imagine, now, telling women they must submit to their father-in-laws, as that is what is truly “biblical”).
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Val:
You said:”The funniest part about men returning to patriarchy would be: men between the ages of 20 – 45 would not be the heads of their households – their fathers would be (imagine, now, telling women they must submit to their father-in-laws, as that is what is truly “biblical”)”
It is just pure nonsense!! People need to wake up.
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@ Jan and No More Perfect:
Sooner or later, it wouldn’t surprise me if one of these big-name patriarchs’ kids went off the deep end. Bad. They have SO many children and SO much family dysfunction that it’s almost statistically impossible for it NOT to happen. It’ll be hushed up, of course, and the offending party will be made to vanish from public view and be written out of all Vision Forum, etc. publications (past and present) as soon as possible. It’ll be like that part in The Ten Commandments:
“Let the name of Moses be stricken from every book and tablet, stricken from all pylons and obelisks, stricken from every monument of Egypt. Let the name of Moses be unheard and unspoken, erased from the memory of men for all time…”
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Val & Hester,
Moses was 80 years old, and had verbal orders from God Almighty, yet in Ex. 4:18 he asked permission of his father-in-law to return to Egypt! 🙂
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Dave A A,
Moses was asking permission primarily because he was taking Jethro’s daughter from her family. Early in scripture, the command for the “husband to leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife” was adhered to in what was called a beena marriage. Isaac also asked permission to take Rebekah away from her family and the decision was left up to her whether or not to go. That command for marriage deteriorated later when women began to be taken as spoils of war.
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As nonsensical as complementarianism is, to me the greatest conondrum is how its proponents can be intelligent, highly educated people and at the same time such morons.
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Elastigirl –
Thanks for a Friday night 🙂
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Love your comment elastigirl!
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@ Dave:
Then so much for young men becoming heads of their own households ala Vision Forum. ; ) They do have a CD called The Role of Grandfathers or something like that. I wonder what it says…
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Southwestern Discomfort
I am thinking about starting a business with my husband called “Coverings Are Us.” For $50, you receive a certificate that you are under the covering of my husband. So, if anyone says that you are not being “complementarian” enough, you can say that some old dude in Raleigh has got you covered.
Then there is Memberships Are Us. For $150 we will send a letter stating that you are a member in good standing on the E Church at Wartburg. For an extra $50, we will say you were a deacon and for an extra $150 we will say you are an elder.
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Ooh, that would be good for those bloggers who demand to know who your pastor is when you dare to disagree with them!
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A place to start in looking for men who support an egalitarian view is to check the speakers at the Christians For Biblical Equality Conferences. If you skim down the topics at these events and the speakers then you can follow up the names.
For example: Seattle Conf. 2011
http://equalitydepot.com/2011conference.aspx
There are many resources available at the CBE website, some are free. Check out who the authors are for the various articles in the publications.
CBE website: cbeinternational.org
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When I was at the CBE Seattle Conf. last July there was history provided about it. I thought that I had heard that Christians For Biblical Equality had formulated first and then as a direct reaction to CBE’s biblical stand on equality then the Biblical Manhood/Womanhood crowd needed to counter so they had their big pow wow and organized themselves officially.
Someone might want to check who came first and that would explain why the comp. crowd were so motivated to get the ‘real biblical’ directive out there to the masses. History can be so informative.
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The sad thing, Southwestern Discomfort, is that what you describe is accurate in patriarchal homes. One model Patriarchal family, the the Maxwells has a daughter named Sarah who is around 30 and she is staying at home serving her father doing her own kind of work (authoring children’s books and helping with the family business) until her father finds the right helpmeet (that word drives me crazy) for her.
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CBE History – from their site
Disturbed by the shallow biblical premise used by churches, organizations, and mission groups to exclude the gifts of women, evangelical leaders assembled in 1987 to publish their biblical perspective in a new scholarly journal, Priscilla Papers. Included in the group were Gilbert Bilezikian, W. Ward Gasque, Stanley Gundry, Gretchen Gaebelein Hull, Catherine Clark Kroeger, Jo Anne Lyon, and Roger Nicole. The group determined that a national organization was needed to provide education, support, and leadership about biblical equality.
With the help and vision of these individuals, Christians for Biblical Equality was established on January 2, 1988. Catherine Clark Kroeger served as the first president of the organization, and Alvera Mickelsen served as the first chair of the board of directors. Since 2001, Mimi Haddad has served as CBE’s second president.
CBE’s first major project was the creation of a statement, “Men, Women, and Biblical Equality,” which laid out the biblical rationale for equality as well as its application in the community of believers and the family. CBE hosted its first international conference in Saint Paul, Minnesota, in July of 1989.
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CBMW site info –
About Us
In 1987, a group of pastors and scholars assembled to address their concerns over the influence of feminism, not only in our culture, but also in evangelical churches. Because of the widespread compromise of biblical understanding of manhood and womanhood and its tragic effects on the home and the church, these men and women established The Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood.
In opposition to the growing movement of feminist egalitarianism, they articulated what is now known as the complementarian position which affirms that men and women are equal in the image of God, but maintain complementary differences in role and function. In the home, men lovingly are to lead their wives and family as women intelligently are to submit to the leadership of their husbands. In the church, while men and women share equally in the blessings of salvation, some governing and teaching roles are restricted to men.
An organization like CBMW is needed because the gender issue is so complex, and the consequences for violating God’s Word in this area are so devastating. We hope that you will benefit from the critical ministry of CBMW as we help the church deal biblically with gender issues.
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First page of the Danver’s Statement –
The Danvers Statement on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood
The “Danvers Statement” summarizes the need for the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood (CBMW) and serves as an overview of our core beliefs. This statement was prepared by several evangelical leaders at a CBMW meeting in Danvers, Massachusetts, in December of 1987. It was first published in final form by the CBMW in Wheaton, Illinois in November of 1988.
Rationale
We have been moved in our purpose by the following contemporary developments which we observe with deep concern:
1. The widespread uncertainty and confusion in our culture regarding the complementary differences between masculinity and femininity;
2. the tragic effects of this confusion in unraveling the fabric of marriage woven by God out of the beautiful and diverse strands of manhood and womanhood;
3. the increasing promotion given to feminist egalitarianism with accompanying distortions or neglect of the glad harmony portrayed in Scripture between the loving, humble leadership of redeemed husbands and the intelligent, willing support of that leadership by redeemed wives;
4. the widespread ambivalence regarding the values of motherhood, vocational homemaking, and the many ministries historically performed by women;
5. the growing claims of legitimacy for sexual relationships which have Biblically and historically been considered illicit or perverse, and the increase in pornographic portrayal of human sexuality;
6. the upsurge of physical and emotional abuse in the family;
7. the emergence of roles for men and women in church leadership that do not conform to
Biblical teaching but backfire in the crippling of Biblically faithful witness;
8. the increasing prevalence and acceptance of hermeneutical oddities devised to reinterpret
apparently plain meanings of Biblical texts;
9. the consequent threat to Biblical authority as the clarity of Scripture is jeopardized and
the accessibility of its meaning to ordinary people is withdrawn into the restricted realm
of technical ingenuity;
10. and behind all this the apparent accommodation of some within the church to the spirit of
the age at the expense of winsome, radical Biblical authenticity which in the power of the Holy Spirit may reform rather than reflect our ailing culture.
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The loyalist commenter makes is quite clear that the complementarian position is basically about men having ‘inherent authority.’ See his reply of 16 Aug at 10.38. He mentions that ‘the man names the woman (thus expressing authority over her).’ I wonder, then, what to make of Genesis 16 where the pregnant Hagar names the LORD ‘the God who sees me,’ after her encounter with the Angel of the LORD in the desert. Is Hagar then expressing authority over the Almighty?
Surely these instances of naming are more about recognizing the other party and acknowledging their identity and/or relationship to one? The man recognizes that the woman has been made from him by saying ‘Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh,’ they are of the same substance. He also recognizes that she is the ‘isha’/wife and he the ‘ish’/husband. She is only named Eve later, after the Fall and once they have left Eden. Instead of a hierarchy in the beginning, I see a joyous partnership.
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Thanks Bridget for doing the searching/posting.
So as I understand, the cbmw is a strong reaction based on their perceived fear/s. My *s for word emphasis.
“An organization like CBMW is *needed because the gender issue is *so *complex, and the *consequences for *violating God’s Word in this area are so *devastating.” and
“…to address their concerns over the *influence of feminism, not only in our culture, but also in evangelical churches. Because of the *widespread *compromise of *biblical *understanding of manhood?? and womanhood?? and its *tragic effects on the home and the church,…”
So any deviation from the above would be ominous, if not a total compromise of the right view of Scripture.
Quite scary stuff and with devastating consequences?!!
Seems that the NT believers were blessed with the presence of the Holy Spirit in order to live godly lives in a pagan society. It is the Spirit of Christ who empowers God’s people to live godly whether single or married. The Word and the Spirit are characterized by love, joy, and peace, not to mention freedom in the believer’s life not endless and obscure rules.
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There’s a lot problematic in the Danvers Statement, but points 4 and 6 particularly bug me. 4, because there isn’t an ambivalence to motherhood and homemaking – if that’s what a woman wants to do. What there is, is saying that women are allowed, if they so choose, to get higher education, to pursue a career, to not be a mother. It’s simply a broadening of roles, but that does not mean those ‘traditional’ roles are looked down on, just that they aren’t the be-all and end-all. Number 6 is fairly offensive, because it implies that feminism/egalitarianism/equality/call it what you will is to blame for physical and sexual violence, which is patently false. It’s only because of the tireless work of feminists that rape within marriage is even recognised as a crime. As I said during the whole Wilson kerfuffle, there is an increase in reporting of these incidents, and they are taken more seriously, but that is in no way the same as an increased incidence.
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All I know is the archetype of the woman P-whipping her husband into some very nasty things had to come from somewhere. (RL examples: Imelda Marcos, Elena Ceaucescu, half the Empresses of China in Chinese tradition, and the wife of Thirties bank robber Machine Gun Kelly.) I also heard that during the all-time peak of the KKK in the Roaring Twenties, it was the Klanswomen (women auxilliaries of the Klan) who were the most extreme. (And I’m posting this from the former “Klanaheim, Kalifornia.”)
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Oh, and going back to the husband/father picking womens’ and girls’ clothes for them, heck no! I make my own clothes and my style is pretty fantastic, if I do say so myself. I’m not exchanging my owl print dress and skirt made of ties for shapeless shirts and little house on the prairie dresses with sensible shoes!
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To be honest, because the way I was taught in family system in a state school egalitarianism was viewed as liberal notion and would incur role confusion. It was defined as wife could do a woman’s job and husband can do a wife’s job and that the couple is free to define those roles. Complementarianism had to do with the strengths and weaknesses of each partner in complement. It would not assume all things being equal and knowing some marriage situations if the male held an egalitarian notion going into a marriage that role confusion occurred, often leaving the woman frustrated in the relationship. When I see single males entering marriage believing egalitarian notions more than often they are spoiled and lazy. Dee and Deb, complementarian is obviously being redefined and misunderstood period. I don’t agree that it is a dirty word.
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Even my sister could vouch for me on this early in her marriage.
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Just to assure you though, in reading the Danver’s statement, that is a traditionalistic view NOT COMPLEMENTARIANISM AT ALL! Strengths and weaknesses is like John McCain and his wife. He said that he let his wife be the accountant in the family as she was really good at it. It is also when a husband is disabled and the wife has to be the support. SO is the church going to provide FOR HIM??? So she can be a stay at home mother?? Mrs. Klouda did this as her husband was disabled.
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For some who don’t know the story, Mrs Sheri Klouda actually taught Hebraic languages at SWBTS while her husband was disabled. The trustees and the leadership there had a problem with her position since she was a woman and women teachers informing males on a subject was deemed a “no,no”.
To be honest, teaching males in Timothy 3 indicates a mentoring relationship, NOT an informational one, and may even go so far as an apprenticing role.
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@ Southwestern and Julie Anne”
“As a single adult woman in my early 50s, complementarianism does absolutely NOTHING for me.”
One of my FB friends just linked to some complementarian “ministry” website this morning that had a “Family Manifesto.” I went and read it and this statement struck me:
“We believe God created a man incomplete, and as a husband, he needs his wife as his helper.”
So single men are inherently “incomplete”? What does this do to the fact that most of the New Testament was written by a single man? And HOW exactly are they incomplete? Because they need a woman to do the dishes and make babies? Interestingly, they didn’t repeat this statement about women. So does that mean men are inherently incomplete, but women aren’t?
As has been pointed out here many times before, many comp and patriarchal groups are beginning to imply (if not outright state like these people) that singleness is inferior or unacceptable, when in fact Paul portrays it as better than being married. Paul singled out people who forbid marriage as false teachers, but I wonder what he’d do with this new crowd that practically MANDATES it?
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Oops, THIS one was directed @ Julie Anne:
“One model Patriarchal family, the the Maxwells has a daughter named Sarah who is around 30 and she is staying at home serving her father doing her own kind of work (authoring children’s books and helping with the family business) until her father finds the right helpmeet (that word drives me crazy) for her.”
(teeth gritted) I CANNOT STAND THE MAXWELLS!!!!! People in certain homeschool circles idolize them. They had a conference in CT a few years ago and one of our friends went. Thankfully she has a brain in her head and literally walked out of a session after Mr. Maxwell called television “the Beast.” (It was then that I realized that you can, indeed, figure out some people’s beliefs merely by counting how many calico dresses and denim jumpers appear in their publicity photos.)
There’s also a family we used to know whose daughters are in the same position as Sarah Maxwell. The family moved to SC because there was (allegedly) a better selection of Christian young men in SC than CT. Well, years later, two of their daughters are in their 30s and still living at home. I guess all those holy bachelors never materialized.
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@ Hester~
Just like with patriarchal elites Baucham and Botkin…the Maxwell woman is “helping in the family business”? so…sounds like there might not be not much motivation for finding the right guy for her from dad. What happens to the business if she leaves–if she is an important part of it? How is there much hope for her to have a husband? Much better (for the dad) to keep her around making the dough for him. How they reconcile that with teaching that courtship is the best way to find a spouse is something I do not understand….with a 30 years old daughter at home. With Baucham, Jasmine teaches her siblings I think and teaches at some home school coop I do believe, and must help with her siblings…as well as help her dad? (I read that at one time…not too sure if she is still involved with helping her dad.) The Botkins daughters who advocate the SAHD lifestlye write books for dad, show us how to be mini helpmeets to their brothers, and now are hosting a beauty webinar this fall (for a fee) so they can tell us how we can be beautiful on a budget. The two girls are 27 and 29. I wonder if their dad will ever let them go. Why would he–when they are supposedly living the glam life of a SAHD and telling us how wonderful it is… yet they are not building the “kingdom of God” by having their own quiverful (esp. troublesome or so it should be for Botkin as he has some 200 year plan so people should really get cracking at having kids) so how does that gel with dad Botkins?
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Sadly, Hester, there was a time that I did drink that Kool-Aid. I think my husband and I’ve gone to at least a couple of the Maxwell’s seminars. I participated on their online forums for years (when they were active). I almost bought into the “no sports” for boys and no college because our boys were going to have their own businesses and buy their homes outright before they got married, too. haha
Their blog is still in my reader because I’m curious and nosy. They are held high on a pedestal in the homeschooling community. Looking thru the pictures on their blog you see the perfect homeschooling clan, the modest homemade dresses, hard-working, but always-smiling image. Their 3rd son is just about to be married in weeks. He’s the 3rd boy to have a house fully paid before marriage. All of the sons work for their dad and live close by. I’m pretty sure they all go to their church which is held at a retirement community. So what we have here is Patriarchal dad owning a business in which all of his sons and adult daughters work, live close by, and “pastoring” the church in which all the family attends. Will this trend continue with future generations?
The spouses of the 3 sons have been very carefully hand-selected. The wives have been discovered at homeschool conferences or places where the Maxwells have spoken. It seems as though the Maxwell boys have sought girls and asked Dad permission to court, but why is Dad not actively seeking out someone for Sarah to court? At the age of 30, I’d be saying, “see ya later, Daddyo”. Hmm, I wonder if Sarah gets a paycheck for all the work she does for the family business or is it just considered being helpmeet for her father? This stuff gets a bit weird for me and the daddyo/daughter relationship makes my creepo meter climb.
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I have also read a recent book by a female I might add on the impact of pornography on this culture and tendency with male attitude toward women. One thing Luther address at Wartburg was the archbishops and their brothels.
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Diane, my husband and I have often discussed this 200 year plan and how it doesn’t seem to be working out too well. The thing is, the 200 year plan relies on utter parental control of the outcomes of their children’s upbringing – which is totally counter-productive to the plan actually being carried out. The SAHD daughters movement is not resulting in very many marriages, just lots of adult women living at home. I suspect there are too many hoops for a young man to jump through to marry the daughter of a patriarch.
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@ Jan~
“The SAHD daughters movement is not resulting in very many marriages, just lots of adult women living at home. I suspect there are too many hoops for a young man to jump through to marry the daughter of a patriarch.”
Interesting. I guess guys might be a little intimidated by the top of the line type patriarchal fathers of Jasmine and the Botkin girls…possibly.
@ Julie Anne~
“The spouses of the 3 sons have been very carefully hand-selected.”
I was reading the Maxwell blog and it appears there was supposed to be a wedding (a Maxwell son) this weekend. The engagement was cancelled last week by the bride to be. It is buried beneath the many pictures they have posted recently.
http://www.titus2.com/blog/index.php/2012/08/12/broken-hearts/
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Jan, re buying into patriarchy, I think one of Homo sapiens’ psychological traits is that a system appeals to us. If someone offers us a complete system for life – be it neo-Reformedism, Catholicism, Scientology, Marxism or whatever – many of us are tempted by it, esp if we haven’t ever bought into a complete system before. (Of course, once burnt, next time less likely to fall for such grandiose claims).
As I understand it though, the Bible gives the basic and most important answers for life (purpose, salvation and a hope for the future) but it lets us discuss other things using Biblical wisdom and the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Paul recognises that Christians may disagree on issues in at least two places (Rom 14 and 1 Cor 10, I think). Unfortunately our psychology (no doubt affected by the Fall!) make us love to introduce “the system” so that we can have a perfect answer for everything in any situation. The sad thing is also that love for “the system” can end up replacing our first love, Jesus who gave us the salvation on which we built the system in the first place!
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Diane
This is why I love blogging. Our readers are the sleuths of the Internet. As to the recently former Maxwell bride to be: Run, baby, run.
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@ Diane and Julie Anne:
You’re right, there’s not much economic incentive for the patriarch to seek out a spouse for his daughters (free in-house help). Then he’d have to do something not “frugal” (pay someone else) or do the work himself (instead of studying the Bible for long hours like a good prophet-priest-king of the home).
I also find the relationship between hard-right Calvinism and “frugality” rather interesting. They seem to be the only group that really harps hard on it, and their definition of it is sometimes peculiar. I’m all for saving money, but is the only way to do that making your own clothes, soap, etc. and refusing to shop at a normal grocery store? Because all those things, done correctly, can actually be VERY expensive. Even “frugality lite” can start to look a little ridiculous – i.e., “frugally” delaying car repairs until the vehicle is almost destroyed and needs to be replaced, instead of “wasting” money on a simple repair that would have prevented the ACTUAL needless waste of thousands of $$$ on a whole new car.
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Oh, and also? “Frugal” Christians who have paid off their mortgages and take multiple vacations a year, and yet continue to go to Goodwill for clothes and buy dented cans at a discount? They should be saving those things for needy people. Who actually CAN’T pay for them.
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Also, I suppose when it’s been drilled into your head that getting a crush on a boy might mean cheating on your future husband (thus becoming an adulteress if you don’t go on to marry the boy in question) could put the brakes on any attraction pretty quick.
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Wow, Diane – my blog has kept me from my blog reader – that is indeed news.
What bothered me about this new engagement was how fast they set the wedding date and the primary reason for the hastiness was revolving around the Maxwell’s (parents) speaking schedule. To me, that seemed to be a troubling signal of things to come – does every function run around the patriarch’s speaking schedule?
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Bridget, thank you for posting the origins of the two agencies with obvious diametrical purposes; one to set free; the other to restrict.
Its hard to overlook the negativity and fear tactics employed in the Danvers Statement. Words like uncertainty, confusion, distortions, neglect, ambivalence, crippling, jeopardized, illicit, etc. are all designed to promote a solid stance against women who advocate for service in ministry in the body of Christ and the inherent dignity of all God’s people regardless of race, ethnicity, or gender.
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Doesn’t Fred Phelps have a similar setup? (Except maybe with the addition of a Walled-off Family Compound…)
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HUG said: Doesn’t Fred Phelps have a similar setup? (Except maybe with the addition of a Walled-off Family Compound…)
Maxwells would never allow their daughters to go to college and become attorneys. Do the Phelps’ daughters live at home with daddy?
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Victorious –
When Barb O. suggested that we might want to look at the timing on the beginnings of CBMW, it interested me. So I set off to find the information and then decided to check out the CBE and Danvers information as well. I thought the “purposes” and wording of the different ducuments were very revealing and thought others would be interested.
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@ Julie Anne~
This is from the bride to be. I am glad she had a choice in the matter to refuse the marriage. I am sure that must have been very hard.
http://muncksquiver.blogspot.com/2012/08/his-gift.html
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Kolya,
I totally agree that the “system” can look very attractive – especially to someone like me, a list-making perfectionist who would rather not do a job at all than to do it less-than-perfectly (my OCD tendency has been strangely subsiding lately, however).
When I started questioning everything a few months ago, I kept begging God to just come out with it and tell me exactly what it was He was trying to teach me. I could sense something enormous happening in me which I simply could not define, didn’t know which direction I was going, was terrified I was going to go astray after He dismantled my tidy little bullet-pointed faith. I only wanted Him to change my heart if He could give me more bullet-points, another system. But one day it hit me like a rock: He wasn’t going to systematize it for me, that was the whole point of what He was trying to teach me. Closed-system faith is for those who are fearful of relying on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I had been ignoring the Holy Spirit in thinking I could derive the answer to every question that ever existed from the Bible if only I would study it hard enough. Yes, the Bible holds the black and the white – the boundaries. But the Spirit brings the colors… the life… wisdom as we live our lives and try to make decisions within those boundaries. We need both!
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If the group decided to call themselves “The Complementarian Gospel Coalition” at least they would be giving themselves a more honest title, as it is, the title they give themselves is misleading, because they have chosen to deliberately exclude some people who accept the gospel.
Furthermore, the Bible itself tells us what at the most important things to agree about in (NET) Heb 6:1 Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God,
Heb 6:2 teaching about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment.
So we see that contrary to what the speakers said, the very next level of doctrinal agreement after having faith in Christ INCLUDES agreeing about baptism, but notice that this text says nothing about gender. In other words, what the Bible DOES say are the first things to agree upon they do not think is important to agree upon in a group that calls itself TGC, but what the Bible does not say is important to agree upon they claim it is important to agree upon. They could not be more out of phase with what the Bible says if they tried and so are revealed as following human tradition more than the Bible.
TGC should respect the name they have chosen to give themselves and accept ALL who claim the gospel OR change their name. Remember, atheists are watching and alert to any hypocrisy.
** Note that I posted this on the TGC blog, but TGC deleted it. Did they think it was too clear or what?
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Don
They do not believe that you understand the “gospel.” They will not allow someone bordering on heresy (this means disagreeing with Piper, et al) comment. They have a problem. They used to be able to delete comments and no one would know. They now know because other blogs are talking about it and getting more traffic than they are. Just look at the numbers of comments over there. It is rather pitiful for such “important” leaders.
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To be fair, they did not (yet) delete a previous comment I made. They do not delete all questioning comments, but I guess they do delete the skewering comments that reveal them to be what they are.
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@ Dee,
You got it. They are losing in the marketplace of ideas and they know it. I think the best they can hope for now is doing damage control and taking steps to hang onto the adherents they currently have.
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My take is that a group of gender hierarchalists (CBMW, etc.) noticed that some churches were moving AWAY from such thinking over time, in other words, the egal message was getting out and (even worse from their viewpoint) was working to convince believers to become more egal. Denton Bible church was a high profile example of this happening, they were known to be conservative, but they moved in a more egal direction a few years ago. This is VERY SCARY for the gender hierarchalists as it means they MIGHT BE WRONG, since their scare claims of liberal or homosexual do not apply.
So their “solution” was to form groups that explicitly INCLUDED gender hierarchy as a part of their faith statements, even tho this is clearly not a primary doctrine. But when it is NOT included, the church or church group can “slide” into more egal positions gradually. This way, any possible discussion is stopped right when it starts, it is in effect an “unwelcome mat” put out in front of the door of these groups for egals or any semblance of egal thinking. Instead of allowing a church to be continuously reformed, they want to throttle that possibility.
It reminds me of the authoritarianism in the Roman Catholic church before the Reformation.
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Muff wrote~
“You got it. They are losing in the marketplace of ideas and they know it. I think the best they can hope for now is doing damage control and taking steps to hang onto the adherents they currently have.”
Another step-taking “obey” article from Ortlund. As much as he writes about obeying pastors and what we are to be doing for them, I am beginning to think there are problems in his church. Obey–because your pastor “is the one” who will give an account (and evidently each one of us won’t)?
“It is the responsibility of a pastor to set an example for his church (1 Peter 5:3). It is the responsibility of the church to follow his worthy example. But you will not always agree with your pastor. That is why the words “obey” and “submit” are there in the Bible. When you disagree with him, and you talk it through and pray it through and wait on the Lord and still can’t come to agreement — that is when “obey” and “submit” should exert their authority in your life. It is not mindless lockstep automation. It is a basic attitude of openness and humility and deference to your pastor. He is the one who will give an account to God, as only he can.”
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/rayortlund/2012/08/15/you-and-your-pastor/?comments#comments
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Hmm. THink a lot depends on what Ray Ortlund means by “obey” and “submit”. Sometimes we can be in disagreement with a minister on an issue but it’s only secondary, or else we agree with him in so much else (hopefully!) that we are happy to let this one go.
I’m not so sure though if the case is more serious. Also, if a minister repeatedly alienates people, experience dictates that in the end they will look for another church. I’ve seen people leave a church and go to other churches where they were actually less theologically satisfied but simply couldn’t sit under their former minister’s authority. I’m not suggesting that people should always “vote with their feet” or that a minister should seek to please everyone all the time – that would be impossible. However if you have a situation where people who have been at a church for years start leaving, especially if they have a record of Christian service, then I think the minister at least needs to ask himself why – and probably ask them why too.
And to be fair to ministers, I’ve also seen at least one individual who seemed to go from church to church because he wanted a role for himself (may the Lord forgive me if I judge him wrongly, but another Christian lady mentioned the same man to me).
Whatever the rights and wrongs of a situation, however, one would hope that any disagreement and parting of the ways is at least done in Christian charity.
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I thought it was an interesting paragraph that did not tell us much, yet on the otherhand it did. Seems obey and submit after prayer and talking it through is the way to go in his opinion. He did not present a scenario in which a person should remain in disagreement. He seems to be saying — if you disagree, it is up to you to see how the words obey and submit “should exert their authority in your life.” I could be wrong though.
“But the lead pastor is the leader of the leaders. As the traditional language puts it, he is “first among equals.””
I disagree with a lead pastor over other pastors. But I cannot disagree, but have to obey and submit after praying it through and talking it through, according to Ortlund.
“And what if you think his ministry emphases might be wrong? There is no pat answer to that difficult question. But I know this. Unless the impact of your pastor’s ministry is clearly unbiblical, his imbalance is probably of the Lord. It is probably the imbalance the Lord wants for your church at this time. Many times in Scripture less-than-ideal situations are of him. Roll with it. You don’t need to take control. The Lord is in control. Don’t “rescue” your church from what the Lord is doing. Wait on him. He will surprise you with blessing you cannot foresee.”
That sounds to me like there is no error to be concerned with–ever. It’s “probably” the Lord’s doing, (how do we know?) so roll with it?
I have never read anything quite like that.
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But one day it hit me like a rock: He wasn’t going to systematize it for me, that was the whole point of what He was trying to teach me. Closed-system faith is for those who are fearful of relying on the guidance of the Holy Spirit. I had been ignoring the Holy Spirit in thinking I could derive the answer to every question that ever existed from the Bible if only I would study it hard enough. Yes, the Bible holds the black and the white – the boundaries. But the Spirit brings the colors… the life… wisdom as we live our lives and try to make decisions within those boundaries. We need both!”
Bingo! How beautifully you put this!!!
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@Dee Re certificates: sounds like a good racket to me. (just kidding) I do have to admit the thought occurred to me this could be a good sideline for an unemployed man.
@JulieAnne I’m well aware of the Maxwells and it is my considered opinion that he is running a family cult, little different from that of a certain space-alien cult, except the Scientologists don’t pretend to be Christian. In fact, I sent an e-mail to the patriarch of the family (Steve) telling him to free his wife and children. If I lived closer to Kansas, I’d be of a mind to go visit the Maxwells and ask Sarah if she’d like to leave.
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I don’t think they deleted any of my comments, although I wish the ones quoted here had sorted properly because it looks like my last comment there comes after Collin asked us to stop, but if you look at the date stamps you see it didn’t.
…I wonder if no one noticed on the blog post about the broken engagement, “Fred’s” comment. Looks like one of their readers is a Queen fan. I suppose the “Britney” one might be a similar thing, but I am not up on Britney Spears’ body of work.
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@Laura,
Ah, you recognized the handiwork of the members of the snark board Free Jinger. One member posted as Adele on the Maxwell blog, then challenged other members of Free Jinger to give it a whirl. Hence, Queen, Britney, LMFAO, Rick Astley, etc. (As a sidenote, it’s kind of interesting how many secular love lyrics can be easily recast into “Jesus is my boyfriend” songs.)
On a serious note, I think the young woman who would have been married yesterday dodged a (metaphorical) bullet. The Maxwell life is so unremittingly constrained, there’s absolutely no joy within and nothing that would make me want to be Christian.
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South Park did an entire episode on the subject.
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The title to this post, “Complementarian Confusion at the Gospel Coalition” is misleading. The folk at TGC don’t seen confused by this issue at all (as demonstrated by their videos and articles on the topic). It seems to me that it’s the author of this post who is confused (a)about what complementarianism is and (b) why (s)he has been left outside of this “closed system” that is known as TGC.
Why don’t those of you who don’t like TGC’s position set up your own coalition? Then you would get your own stage and wouldn’t have to settle for just being “ordinary folk.”
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AJ
Your comment helps our readers to see why there is such disunity in the body of Christ. “Go form your own group” somehow doesn’t seem to project a desire to serve together now, does it?
“Get you own stage” sees to recall that old saying, “All the worlds a stage and the people, merely players.” It just doesn’t scream “Gospel” to me and I know you guys love the gospel word.
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AJ, I would respectfully suggest that you’ve missed the point.
You may claim that there’s no confusion about complementarianism at TGC, and you may not see any, but we certainly do.
Many of us who have considered what Carson, Keller, and Piper said on the video see a lot of confusion. They claim that complementarianism is not central to the gospel but then behave as if it is.
This is an organisation that claims to stand for “The Gospel”. The last time I looked, the gospel was about sinners being justified before God through faith in Jesus. That’s got nothing to do with gender roles. You can interpret the Bible in a number of ways regarding the latter, and yet still give total assent to the gospel and the inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility of the Bible.
And it is a particular matter of concern that an organisation which is supposed to be a focus of unity within the evangelical world is promoting a contentious and sectarian position.
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AJ –
You confirmed for me the MAIN REASON the TGC exists – to have THEIR OWN stage. It’s quite a performance they are putting on. Maybe they will win an award for all their efforts.
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AJ, if you’ve read much on complementarianism, you’d see that complementarians themselves are pretty confused on what it actually is. There’s a range of views on how exactly it should be applied, where, to whom, how much flexibility there should be, even what to call it (posts and articles discussing whether it is or isn’t patriarchy). And when they’re asked, repeatedly, to properly define what complementarianism is in practice, the can’t really do it. So I’d say the complementarian camp are pretty confused, and with a lot of disagreement amongst themselves, even if they don’t like admitting it.
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Dear Dee, Ian, Bridget and Pam,
Thank you so much for your comments. It’s great to have this opportunity to worth thorough this issue. I’d like to pick up on some of your thoughts if that’s okay?
Dee: I’m sorry if my suggestion that y’all set up a new group smacks of disunity. That certainly wasn’t my intention. It seems to me that setting up a new group is a much more productive than people relentlessly criticising TGC for this, that and the other. Also, I’d be keen to know what you think an Egalitarian-Complementarian group would actually look like in practice. Would it not just default to a position of egalitarianism? I’m just trying to think practically what it would look like.
Ian: I guess you and I see the TGC video, scripture and indeed the focus of TGC quite differently. The video: I thought the three men you mentioned were quite clear that being complimentarian does not cause you to believe the gospel. I thought Keller in particular was clear that complimentarianism doesn’t feature in his conversations about the gospel with people and doesn’t features in his conversations with people about how you become a Christian. Scripture: I think one would need to disregard whole chunks of scripture to arrive at an egalitarian position, therefore I disagree that you can take an egalitarian position and still hold to the inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility of the Bible. TGC: I don’t agree with what you think the supposed focus of TGC is. Please watch this short video (http://vimeo.com/26481665) and after watching it, tell me if you still think TGC is simply focussed on “unity within the evangelical world.”
Bridget: I think that’s a bit harsh. I was quoting the author of this initial post who used the word “stage” in her penultimate paragraph. I am sure TGC has more noble aims that the ones you attribute to them.
Pam: I think Piper makes a pretty good effort at practically defining complentarianism (both in the home and in the church)in the TGC video that people have been referring to. His definition starts at about 3minutes 20 seconds in the video.
I hope you’re all having a blessed Sunday.
AJ
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* “work through” not “worth thorough (Sorry!)
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AJ –
I posted this on the other thread, but I thought you might be interested in it.
http://www.reformation21.org/blog/2012/08/confused-by-complementarianism.php
It’s interesting, it’s written by a complementarian, it might just explain what the people here at TWW see when they watch the TGC coalition videos.
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That was funny. Trueman mentions that a person can be an inerrantist and an egalitarian, an idea which Gospel Coalition members past and present seem unable to even imagine (I’m thinking particularly of ex-TGC member Driscoll).
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AJ,
I can’t watch the video now, but want to pick up on something you said:
“I think one would need to disregard whole chunks of scripture to arrive at an egalitarian position, therefore I disagree that you can take an egalitarian position and still hold to the inspiration, inerrancy, and infallibility of the Bible.”
1. This is an example of the disrespectful way most complementarians treat egalitarians. You’re saying that anyone who understands the Bible differently than you is a liberal.
2. Carl Trueman (see link from Dana) disagrees with you here.
3. Please, tell me what “chunks of scripture” you are referring to. I’ll then tell you if I disgregard them.
4. I’d like to know a bit about you, particularly what type of church you belong to.
Thanks!
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@Victorious, I don’t believe I ever thanked you for providing the links to the men who don’t buy into the comp viewpoint.
A very belated thank you to you! 🙂
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One of the comments above makes a good point: how on earth can seemingly intelligent, godly men hold such ridiculous views on women in the church?
If ignorance and training are removed as options, it’s hard not to see the possibility of emotional/relational/psychological issues relating to gender roles and relationships between spouses as well as mothers, fathers, and their children. Obviously, I am not saying every complementarian needs therapy, but some certainly do.
I wish we could ask for and receive some honest details re: family backgrounds and past experiences with mothers and fathers (or legal guardians, etc.) – I bet we’d find some interesting things.