The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference. The opposite of art is not ugliness, it's indifference. The opposite of faith is not heresy, it's indifference. And the opposite of life is not death, it's indifference.” Elie Wiesel
Please accept my apology for bringing up this subject for one last time. I thought it might be relevant to rerun a story that I wrote in 2009 when virtually no one was reading our blog. For some reason, it popped into my head and I looked it up. This post directly dealt with some common misperceptions about faith, sin the law and "cures." I have changed some of the text to update our thinking. This was originally posted on 9/21/09
Warning: Explicit material in the next paragraph only.
Imagine… A little girl, let’s call her Sarah, is held down by a man and forcibly raped. The horrendous scene is recorded on camera. You can hear her little voice sobbing and calling out for her mommy. Yet, there is no mommy, and this heinous act is completed. The repulsive video is available on the Internet. A man in Raleigh, North Carolina gets his kicks out of watching child pornography like this. In fact, he has been getting sexually aroused this way just about every night for TWELVE years. He is finally brought to justice and will soon be sentenced for this felony. This crime carries a minimum of FIVE years in a federal prison.
This criminal is upset and does not want to go to jail while he awaits his sentencing because he has important things to do. What is the response of one Southern Baptist pastor? The pastor takes the stand in order to ask a judge to give him extra time to be on the streets reportedly because this man has become a Christian. Huh?
Let’s back up and tell this incredible story.
Imagine opening up your Sunday newspaper and reading this glaring front page headline: "Child pornography consumes a life". That's exactly what happened yesterday to those who subscribe to The News and Observer, a regional newspaper based in Raleigh, North Carolina. Mandy Locke did an excellent job investigating and writing about this story. All of the quotes and the general storyline come from this article link. (This link has been updated).
History
David Chatham, a 43 year old public relations executive, began viewing adult pornography at the age of 9 when he found his dad's Penthouse magazine, tucked away in a briefcase in a closet. Approximately 12 years ago Chatham began viewing child pornography. He is married and has no children. In December 2008 he was arrested and was found to have over 3,400 images of naked, molested boys and girls, toddlers and teens on his computer. Chatham was tried in federal court, pled guilty, and will soon be sentenced to serve a prison term of at least five years.
Knowledge of Wrongdoing
There will be no insanity plea here. Prior to his arrest, Chatham claimed that he knew he would eventually be apprehended. There are investigators who spend their working hours on the web tracking down these perverts. Incredibly, Chatham admitted to the newspaper reporter that he rehearsed what he would say and do when the inevitable arrest occurred.
Wife and Biological Children
He has no children of his own. His wife claimed she did not want children. (Why is that, I wonder. Did she subconsciously know something was amiss)? She also claimed that she did not know about her husband’s activity in spite of him spending hours in the middle of the night on the computer. I, Dee, have a friend who became suspicious of her husband’s midnight computer viewing after a couple of years, despite his claims of “doing work.” She investigated and immediately sought help. The wife’s claim of “not knowing”, during a relationship thatspanned 9 years until his arrest, seems a bit odd. Perhaps she just didn’t want to know.
Conversion Experience
Chatham claims he began attending a Bible study immediately after he was arrested and is now a Christian.
Other Post Arrest Activities
Chatham began attending sex addicts meetings, received intensive psychological intervention, and worked with authorities to give lectures to men who share his pornography addiction. By all accounts, he became a model, contrite individual who was trying to turn his life around.
Request for leniency
Going before a judge , a number of people spoke on Chatham's behalf, asking for leniency, another three months of freedom to get his affairs in order, before he went to prison. The request was flatly denied, and he went straight to jail… Did any of Chatham's good Christian supporters testify about the children whose lives had been destroyed with his assistance? Why do I say this? The child porn industry would not survive without money used to purchase these heinous images. He had purchased 3400+images.
Analysis
Conversion after apprehension
There is no question that David Chatham knew his activities were illegal and immoral. What is troublesome is that his “new life” didn’t begin until after his arrest. He claims he rehearsed what he would say when he was arrested. Why did he wait until his arrest? Child molesters are highly manipulative individuals. “Wait”, you might say, “He was not a molester”. We contend that he contributed time, and, most likely, money, to this illegal business. In effect, his financial support contributed to this heinous industry. By his actions, he was condoning and implicitly agreeing to the rape of toddlers – that’s right – toddlers!!!!
This man was a public relations expert who rubbed elbows with the rich and powerful. He must have thought out how he would tip the scales in his favor when arrested.
His porn acquisitions went on for 12 years! Such a habitual activity is not cured overnight. We are sure that there are Christians out there who probably claim that a miracle occurred. To that we say, “Can you prove it?” Is it worth the risk to our children? Don’t committed Christians also commit heinous acts?
Jaycee Duggard met the "converted" Phillip Garrido
Let’s take a look at another well-known case, which , at the time of our original post was currently ongoing. Most everyone has heard of the remarkable story of Jaycee Duggard who was abducted by Phillip Garrido when she was 11 years old. She was held in captivity for close to two decades during which time she was forcibly raped by this monster and bore two children.
Prior to Jaycee’s abduction, Garrido had been a convicted sex offender. He was sentenced in 1976 to 50 years in jail after kidnapping and raping a woman. However, 10 years into his sentence Garrido claimed to have “found God” and was released on parole. Four years later, he kidnapped Jaycee and her life became a horror movie. (In Touch magazine, September 14, 2009) Perhaps Garrido lost God when God became inconvenient.
Ted Bundy
Even Ted Bundy, who admitted to the murder of perhaps hundreds of girls, realized that “jailhouse” conversions are perceived as suspect. Ted Bundy became a Christian while on death row. However, he refused to be interviewed about his faith until he knew that his sentence had no hope of being commuted. Approximately two days prior to his execution, he allowed James Dobson to interview him. This remarkable interview was used by Bundy to talk about the dangers of pornography when viewed by boys entering adolescence. He stated that the reason he refused to be interviewed earlier was that he didn’t want anyone to think this was a ruse for a “get out of jail free “ card. He was sincere in wanting to warn people of the dangers of pornography and children.
Addendum 7/6/12- I am no longer am convinced of Bundy's sincerity. Apparently he died without telling authorities where many of his victims were buried.
Back to Chatham
We believe that “conversion” is sometimes used as an excuse and DO NOT believe that 9 months is sufficient time to make a judgment about this man’s sincerity.
Does conversion implies a fully changed life?
We do not wish to judge whether or not Chatham is a Christian. That's between him and God. In fact, let’s assume that he is. Why does a newly found faith (9 months) imply that he is not a danger to his community? There are countless examples of Christians who fall prey to sexual sins. Darrell Gilyard, a convicted rapist pastor who was vigorously promoted by Paige Patterson, lived a secret life of rape and is now in prison. Link
Addendum 7/6/12: Gilyard is out of jail and is now preaching. However, his church petitioned the court to allow children to come hear him preach. I kid you not! Thankfully, the secular court was smarter than his church members. Read about it at FBC Jax Watchdog Link
How many Christians who are alcoholics or drug addicts “fall off the wagon?” Since when does a “dedication to Christ” mean that someone won’t sin?
Does dedication to Christ “cure” sexual deviance?
Dr. Jon made an interesting point. If all it takes is dedication to Jesus to “cure” deviance, why not have the courts turn over all of the prisoners who are Christian converts to churches and save the government a whole lot of money by closing a bunch of jails? Even the pastor in this situation would admit that Christianity does not have a 100% cure rate in this area. Heck, they can’t even reduce the 50% divorce rate within the Southern Baptist faith!
Does belief in an expressed faith in Christ trump concern for the safety of children?
Chatham has spent 12 years viewing hard-core child pornography. Anyone who would view something so awful day in and day out for 12 years (sometimes for 14 hours a day!) has a darkness in his soul that is not easy to penetrate. In fact, there is a side bar article entitled “Internet Enables a Dark Crime” by Mandy Locke, here, that reviews a study done at a federal prison in Butner, North Carolina. That study found that roughly 85% of men imprisoned for receiving or distributing child pornography and did not have a known history of committing sexual abuse when arrested, actually had committed a hands on offense. Note: the figure is 85%!
Chatham himself stated: “Though he never had a desire to touch a child sexually, he worried that, over time, that inhibition would slip, too.” This man may be crying out for help. He claims he never had this desire, but his assertion is a bit suspect given the nature of his perversion. Although he passed a lie detector test, these tests can be inaccurate.
We are grateful that his wife never wanted children! Although she claims she didn’t know about this problem, there is sufficient reason to be circumspect about her assertion.
Churches appear to be naïve, or worse, lax, in providing for the safety of the children entrusted to their care. The blinders must come off! Many of these same churches claim that all men are depraved, but they don’t appear to practice safety measures that coincide with their theology.
According to the article, the pastor of Chatham's church took the stand on Chatham's behalf, along with a number of other supporters, to ask the magistrate for leniency prior to his sentencing. Chatham wanted three more months of freedom before going to prison. The pastor talked of Chatham’s dedication to Christ (9 months). His therapist claimed she didn’t “think” that Chatham would abuse any kids. (That's quite reassuring!) Chatham's attorney, Joe Cheshire, argued that Chatham did change his life and should be allowed to keep doing that! Incredibly, this same attorney defended a pedophile seminarian that had been at the same church. That pervert was given 13 years in jail! Never forget that a defense attorney must defend his client.
There was no way that Chatham should be allowed one more minute of freedom on the streets with children. There's no question that therapists have screwed up in “pervert” assessments as well demonstrated by the previously mentioned Garrido case. As for Cheshire’s statement that Chatham is doing a lot of good, why not let him do the good in jail where there will be a “captive” audience for Chatham’s message?
We implore all pastors not to be naïve when it comes to sexual offenders. They are manipulators who have a strong compulsion to get their “fix” of choice. Please, please report these abusers immediately, get them jailed, and then spend time rehabilitating them. For years, my pastor has hosted a man who was convicted for first-degree murder. That sort of quiet compassion, with a commitment that extends over years, is commendable and probably provides for insight into a man’s character far better than 9 months. Sincerity is better measured in years, especially for this sort of crime.
Pathological Naivete
Perhaps the greatest irony is that it appears some pastors seem far more concerned about the abuser than those who have been abused. How many of the “supporters” of these criminals are as concerned about the victims? Do these supporters ever imagine how many children have been tortured for this man’s perversion? I have personally known church members who did not think that one rapist should go to jail because he could be helped by these “well meaning yet pathologically naïve” churchgoers.
Poor theology and dangerous psychology
Chatham’s wife was quoted as saying: “I see now that he’s sick. It’s like him having cancer. I couldn’t leave him in that state, and I can’t leave him like this.“ I am the mother of a child who suffered with a malignant brain tumor. I'll bet I speak for many others out there. I wish that simply turning off the computer could have cured my child’s tumor. Gee, flick a switch and the cancer goes away. No, ma’am, this is not like cancer. Yes it is a compulsion, but do not put it in the same category as cancer!
“She holds him tight and tells him that he is a good person, worthy of her love.” No, he is not a good person. He watched images night in and out, of toddlers, children and teens being tortured (yes, rape is a form of torture). This went on for 12 years!!!! He was not helpless. He admitted that he knew what he was doing was wrong. He could have sought help but chose to wait until he was arrested.
The Bible tells us that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. However, some sins have a greater effect on society than others. Children’s lives have been destroyed due to the activities of this man and others like him. Good is not a word that should be used in this situation. Do you think the raped children would call Chatham, “a good man?”
US Attorney Jay Exhume and Federal Magistrate David Daniel appear to understand sin better that the preacher. Attorney Exhume sad that all of the above testimony “wasn’t enough to make him different from the droves of men he sends to prison each year for defiling children by watching them be abused.” APPLAUSE!!!!!!!!!!!
These legal professionals seem to understand the effects and consequences of sexual sin that hurts children so much better than do many pastors and churches. They have seen it all, including false conversions, irreparably harmed children, and men who cannot overcome their sin.
So many pastors have underestimated the horrendous effects of sexual abuse in their churches. Incredibly, some pastors here in North Carolina DO NOT even think they are mandated reporters. Some even condemn sexually abused children for “not telling mommy and daddy.” Pastors, please take this problem seriously. It will not be solved by a couple of Bible studies and some nice speeches. Anyone who believes it can needs to get out of the counseling business or, better yet, spend some time with children who have been tortured and abused.
We are grateful that these lawmakers put this man in jail and got him off the street. Chatham's supporters can visit him in jail and watch his ministry develop. However, do not be deceived. He will need intensive counseling, and even then, may never have normal feelings. After all, Chatham has spent most of his life fueling his pornography habit since he was first exposed as a nine year old! He will need to be watched around children and computers for the rest of his life. One day, he will be set free when he meets his Savior. Until then, he is just another sinner that is capable of deeply harmful behavior.
Addendum 7/6/12 -The people in this raticle violated our Prime Directive. It does not appear the the victims (all 3,000+) images were of great concern to Chatham's supporters. There is something deeply wrong when NOT ONE PERSON in this narrative expressed concern for the welfare of those kids. Now, perhaps the reporter did not write down their deeply expressed sympathies. Somehow, I doubt it. Something is missing here and it is a heart issue that I believe is infecting the church. The victims are ignored and thechild porn addict is coddled. Talk about perverted!! (Sorry- the rant just came).
May God be with the little children that have been irrevocably harmed by this man’s deviant behavior! Join me in praying for them. (At this moment my eyes are filled with tears for the victims and rage for the insensitivity of the church.
Lydia's Corner: Micah 5:1-7:20 Revelation 7:1-17 Psalm 135:1-21 Proverbs 30:5-6
Can God restore such a person to fitness for ministry? Certainly. But, to me, the sure sign would be that person's realization that they cannot ever, EVER place themselves in that position again. And their absolute refusal to allow themselves to ever be put in a position where any child could possibly be jeopardized.
It didn't take Darrell Gilyard long to reveal himself, in this regard, as far as I'm concerned.
Bob,
I wholeheartedly agree with you.
I am convinced that a genuinely converted child molester , who no longer felt any compulsion towards children, would none-the-less not expect children to be around him, or to be put in positions of authority or trust, because he (maybe she) would understand that their previous crimes have serious consequences, & that they are the ones who should utterly go out of their way to protect children by staying away, that they have forfeited the right to be around them. I would expect someone to have the humility to voluntarily corral themselves so that others may have peace.
I agree wholeheartedly with you Bob.
Bob and Beakerj,
I agree completely.
I should have read both of your comments before making my own – it sounds like I'm a little parrot! We just have the same responses to this stuff….
"Restored to ministry": well, maybe if they work solely with adults, but even so…
Seriously, I do not see how this could work. Repentant addicts (to any substance or action) know that they *cannot* be around whatever it is that they were addicted to, as well as needing to avoid situations and settings that will provoke their desire to use/do whatever it is they are addicted to.
An analogy (probably a faulty one): if you're highly allergic to a given food (like ground nuts, say), you do NOT eat them because of the very real risk of going into anaphylactic shock and … dying.
I cannot see how "ministry" for a person with this compulsion could *ever* mean carrying out that ministry in *any* setting where they're going to come into contact with children.
Did Jesus address this in his statements about cutting off/plucking out the physical body part that leads to sin? Or it being better to have a millstone… etc. than to harm "one of thse little ones"?
(Not meaning to be harsh or lacking in compassion – just realistic.)
P.S.: This is the kind of post that I can't really read attentively… no offense meant, but the details are jsut too much to handle.
One other thought: there are no easy answers, are there?
Thanks Dee. What a horrible story to read… am glad you posted it. It has many similarities to a sad, disgusting, grievous story I read about a few months ago. I do have a question – which was prompted by this comment:
"I am convinced that a genuinely converted child molester , who no longer felt any compulsion towards children, would none-the-less not expect children to be around him, or to be put in positions of authority or trust, because he (maybe she) would understand that their previous crimes have serious consequences, & that they are the ones who should utterly go out of their way to protect children by staying away, that they have forfeited the right to be around them. I would expect someone to have the humility to voluntarily corral themselves so that others may have peace."
That sounds like true repentance. It sounds like something a pastor and a truly repentant person should know. Here is my question-
Should a professing Christian (not really sure if one can be sure if genuine conversion is something someone else can know with certainty about someone-so I will refer to him as a professing Christian) who has been convicted of multiple counts of sexual abuse against minors (one being the grievous molestation of a female toddler); in multiples states; over several years; having plea-bargained it all down to one count by agreeing to release other victim's names; also having had "counselling sessions" (6 total) with his pastor with a declaration from the pastor that basically the pedophile has repented and he (pastor) believes it was sincere; and having been sentenced to prison but reduced to lifetime probation instead – with him never being allowed to be around children unless accompanied by a responsible guardian….should that professing Christian convicted pedophile who is on lifetime probation and can never be alone with his own children (although I am sure he will be alone with them sometimes—is his wife going to ruin her life and turn him–will the elders of her church "let" her?) be "allowed" to marry?…. all while boldly revealing his intent to be "fruitful and multiply" according to the teachings of his church? (Kids are, of course, mandatory in his patrarchal church.)
Is this insanity or is it just me? If there is no law that prevents a convicted pedophile on lifetime probation who can never be alone with children from getting married and having children, should a pastor be encouraging this? Because the pastor thinks he is cured? Or that marriage may aid in his cure?
Dee –
I want to thank you for your commitment to holding people's feet to the fire concerning seeing the victims. The first time I was molested (at 2 1/2), I was not the victim. My speaking about it would make the molestor a victim and somehow (for the life of me, I can't remember exactly how this was explained to me) it would make the church and our pastor a victim and this would tick God off no end.
Because of the response I got then, when it began again with someone else when I was 7, why on earth would I tell anyone? I already knew I would be the one in big trouble – not to mention the abuser made sure I knew that I would be in trouble. I honestly believed if my family ever found out, what little love I felt there would disappear entirely. Children think in very black and white terms.
For anyone who wants to take the side of the abuser, I just want to say that three teenaged boys (and a mother who scared me into silence) made my childhood and (due to the emotional & psychological fallout from trying to bury and forget) my twenties and thirties a living hell. Especially those years from 7 to 12 when I was actively being molested. I lived in fear of being 'caught', in fear of being damned, in fear of going to hell. And as to that, I want to point out that prior to that first incident when I was 2 1/2, I already knew Jesus – loved Him…and what happened and how it was handled seriously messed with that, too.
For those who think that child porn isn't as bad as actual molestation…..where do you think the images come from? The child that is being viewed is being molested. When I was 10, an 18 year old friend of my primary abuser came to him…and he came and got me…the 18 year old was getting ready to join the navy and wanted pictures. That was almost 40 years ago and just typing that make me feel sick. I have no idea if those pictures still exist. I pray not. Thank God the internet was not around then. But if you doubt how serious an affect just 'taking pictures' has….In just telling you about it, I am shaking and scared. This stuff is a big fricking deal and pastors and church members (or anyone else, for that matter) who downplay it are more than naive….they are sick in their own right.
I do not want the abusers in my life to go to hell. I've worked through that. But to say that because someone has had a conversion experience means they should have a clean slate from their past is at its very best, naive. As has been mentioned in varius comments, true repentance recognizes the need for consequences. This is one of the ways I believe God has taught me to recognize real repentance.
The real deal will demand NOTHING. The real deal does not expect or request leniency. The real deal humbly apologizes, acknowledges what was done and expects nothing in return. The real deal does not demand forgiveness – if an abuser says, "I said I'm sorry, you have to forgive me," run!
Okay – I will end my rant now….
Hello,
That we should go out of our way to protect children from this type of abuse, is self evident. That churches should go out of their way to protect the children placed in their care, also goes with out question. That Wartburg has, as it were, the willingness to carry the torch, to speak out on, as Eagle has previously stated: on “a very dark subject”, is commendable in itself.
If shaming the recalcitrant* churches into some compliant pedophilia standard is unsuccessful in it’s measure, what hope remains?
Being very wary of churches that send their message of refusal, by their failure to check pedophilia at the church door, by NOT issuing, and enforcing certain standard measures, -a pedophilia memorandum, understood by all in church attendance, service, and employ, and perhaps IS probably best served by a “vote of the feet” rather than the heart. Let the empty chairs, and pews, be a living testament to their “indifference” .
IronClad
—-
(recalcitrant), i.e. -as in churches that, concerning the issue of the protection of children; in relation to the issue of pedophilia, are found to exhibit a certain obstinance, measured stubbornness, and possibly exhibiting an uncooperative indifference towards the issue as well.
If a pastor wants to work with a molestor, he should believe that HIS DAUGHTER could be around the man, that HIS WIFE could work side by side with him, that HIS GRANDAUGHTER could use him for a babysitter, If not, keep your distance. No man should unleash such a person onto other peoples' chidren. That is WISDOM, not false judgement. God can save anyone, but with this particular sin there should be serious boundaries and failsafes in place, IF that person is free in society,. Ideally, they wouldn't be. Let them read their Bibles ………from behind prison bars.
This is an awful, awful story. Surely if Chatham was truly converted and repented he'd have been very willing to submit to the just punishment for his evil actions? I think the fact that he – and others – wanted to use Christianity as some sort of 'get out of jail free' card makes his faith seem suspect.
Jeanette, Your story breaks my heart. I have no words to express my grief over what you were put through. It makes me so angry I can hardly breathe. What a dilemma. Poor victims must tell their stories but are not believed and are revictimized or they just shut up and live with it. I hardly know where to begin. I want the raptist and molesters in jail forever. Yes, I mean forever even if they repent. It is heinous. I mean how little do we have to think of children to want them walking the streets?. I sometimes wonder if one who REALLY repents would not WANT to stay in jail because if convicted they would be so broken over what they did to an innocent.
God have mercy on us for what is done to your "least of these" and we do not stand up for them. Or even make them feel secure enough to tell us and be believed!!!
@ Anon 1-
Thank you. It's interesting. In reading your words, my childhood training still kicks in and says I should back up and apologize for making you 'uncomfortable.' But I'm not going to. 🙂
Honestly, it's good that you are uncomfortable – if you weren't, that would be concerning. I think a lot of times, in the greater 'church world', it is the desire to not be 'uncomfortable' and face the 'unpleasant' that drives people to gloss over and downplay. It's easier to pretend it isn't that big a deal than to look evil squarely in the face and name it for what it is and deal with it accordingly. I think most don't really have the stomach for it until they are forced into it….
Hmm…in the moment, I really think that is the biggest issue among pastors/elders/church-members who aren't actually abusers themselves. It is not easy to look evil in the face and acknowledge it for what it is. Most like to pretend that evil doesn't exist except in some intangible form outside the boundaries of their circle of acquaintance. It is unsettling to recognize evil in your own midst.
But once you make the decision to look at it, it becomes much less threatening (personally) and much more definable. And there is no going back, once you've looked it in the eye, so to speak, there is no pretending it isn't there anymore. But if they are unwilling to acknowledge the evil in their midst, they cannot afford to recognize the victims, either. Recognizing the victims requires acknowledging the evil…..
NUMO – "One other thought: there are no easy answers, are there?"
none
The easy answer is that the child's safety comes first all the time.
Trust me, if there was a cow prod up their personal anal oriface and the thing was electrified every time one of these converted predators acted, they would be more conservative but the children are rarely prioritized so we're back to where we started.
Jeannette, First of all, it was very difficult to read more of your story. It always is, but since connecting with you online recently, it makes it even more difficult. Your strength is amazing. *hugs*
You are absolutely right, Jeannette. In Christiandom, it's seems that the formal apology is the free pass to move on. It is not. We must look at outward signs – with true heart-felt remorse, the abuser cannot make any demands on the relationsip, but says "I don't deserve to have a relationship with you" and "whatever you decide I will agree with". That one is a biggie. Abusers who have truly repented undertsand that because of the harm they inflicted, they must voluntarily give up all rights to the relationship – even if it means there never is a relationship again. They accept that. And of course there are the other biggies as well – they voluntarily put themselves under authority for accountability, they put up safeguards so they are never in a situation where they are alone with children, etc.
Jeanette
I am so sorry for the pain you suffered at the hands of abuswer as a child. I am frankly astonished that you can even speak of it. That takes courage and an inner strength that few have. Thank you for your willingness to transparently share your pain wth all of us. I believe that understanding the pain of hte victims is the first step in changing business as usual in the churches.
There is such hardness of heart in dealing with the victims. It seems it is a lot easier to deal with the perp and claim they have been won for Christ “ta da”than to work with the very real pain of the victims. That is really hard. These situations reveal the true character of those who claim to be Chrsitain leaders. And that revelation, in many instances, is startling disappointing. They claim to know God but it appears that they have hearts of stone.
My prayers are with you.
Pam
I agree with you. Repentant people do not ask for favors. The recognize the depravity of their sin and willingly submit to the punishment. I am very suspcious of a guy who appears to be playing the system to his advantage.
I am a frequenter reader–rare commenter. But I feel that I need to weigh in on this this weeks posts about child molesters and porn viewers in the church.
It appears to me that a large segment of the population, Christians included, is sadly lacking in discernment. They don't get that character does not equal personal niceness or likeability. We often assume that because the person is so nice or so helpful or so funny or so educated or so famous or so Biblically knowledgeable, etc., he or she could not possibly have done what they have been accused of. Think how often we see, when there is a horrendous crime, neighbors being interview by reporters and declaring that the person couldn't possibly have done that because they are such a wonderful person. Experts in the field of sexual abuse seem to say that abusers are often extremely likeable people who have honed their people skills to hide their secrets. So why are we surprised? Sandusky's wife is claiming that she had no knowledge of his double life, and according to news articles, experts say that is entirely possible.
Adding to this problem of lack discernment in the Christian population are churches that marginalize women by their "literal" interpretations of scripture. Scientists have long ago shown how men's and women's brains differ in some major ways that impact intuition. Women have intuition in spades because of their unique brain organization. Marginalizing their input is a sure recipe for the things that are happening in churches today.
Then if you throw into the mix the downplaying or ignoring of the work of the Holy Spirit and the gifts of the Spirit, it is easy to see why discernment is missing.
Oh, yes, and one last thing. Way too many people take all their cues from the media, especially TV and movies. Could that be playing into the lack of discernment in our culture?
I've had one probable BPD/NPD (and possible sociopath) in my immediate family. Successful sociopaths (and presumably pedophiles) are masters of camouflage. They have to be, or they'd have been caught long before.
Nobody is as Nice and Helpful as a sociopath.
Nobody is as Concerned, Compassionate, or Sincere as a sociopath.
Until the instant you have outlived your usefulness.
Much easier when Evil is THEM, not US. When only the OTHER is Evil — the Infidel, the Fags, the Catholics, the Communists, the Rich, the Secular Humanists, the Goths, the Gummint Schools, the Unbiblical Uppity Women, whatever. That way you can look in the mirror and admire the Goodness reflected back.
Like the pre-Islamic Persian battle cry — "Here Ahura-Mazda, There Ahriman!" ("Us Infinite Good, Them Infinite Evil!")
A contributing factor is the cheap and shallow idea of Salvation among Evangelicals. Look Really Truly Sorry, Say the Sinner's Prayer, and Be Born Again — "TA DAAAAA!" (And don't forget the Juicy Testimony the perp now has!)
And the victims are an embarrasment to this "Won For Christ" Salvation Narrative. Easier to throw them under the bust and sing Praise Choruses.
P.S. With all the media attention and fallout from the Catholic Priest Pedophilia scandals, do you ever wonder if pedophiles inside Evangelical churches are breathing sighs of relief? All the finger-pointing towards those Romish Papists (i.e. The Other) helps their camouflage ("We're Not Like That!"), and the desire for "Hellish Respectability" means if discovered, the churches are more likely to hush it up to avoid the media attention.
I doesn't help that "discernment" (originally "seeing things as they really are") has been redefined in Christianese to seeing DEMONS under every bed. (Like Birchers seeing Communists under every bed.)
Including anyone and everyone who doesn't agree with the Spiritual Warrior ("I SEE THINGS…"). Seeing "Jezebel Spirits" in uppity women (Hi, Deb & Dee!), "I See the Demon of Rebelliousness (TM) in You…" to any who dare dissent, etc.
HUG
Take, for example, Rick. who is arguing about my take on the the Ian and Larissa story. If I say that I don’t like how John Piper is handling the Ian and melissa situation, he believes that I am accusing Piper, who is never to be questioned, of evil. I have no flaming idea what is in Piper’s heart. I just happen to think he is wrong and it sure appears to me that, he is pushing an agenda that he perceives to be of utmost importance. I also believe that in 2-3 years there will be consequences for this couple but we will all be onto the next “thing” and they will struggle.
There is a belief that Piper can say and do no wrong. Yet, he along with his followers, believe in total depravity. However, to knock of Animal Farm, some are more totally depraved than others. In this situation it is me and I am a Jezebel.
Jeanette: you a brave, courageous admirable woman. The atmosphere of blame you endured abuse within is barely to be believed. I am amazed that more child abuse victims don't go on to murder their abusers, I'm not sure I would have been able to resist it. I'm glad you can fight the voice that tells you you are guilty for something somewhere, for of course the truth is the exact opposite.
I will remember your story next time I work with another child victim, or another young abuser (which come my way sometimes). I wish you every blessing.
@ BeakerJ, Dee, Julie Anne and all-
Thank you for the encouragement. I know my story is difficult to hear. It is difficult to tell. :-/
It feels like it would be easier to pull back, hide in the shadows and not 'expose' myself to potential ridicule. I don't feel particularly brave, although others have told me the same – I will 'take it on faith?' 😉
Actually, when things get stressful, I still feel a draw to my favorite childhood refuge – the farthest back corner of a nice, dark closet. I can remember climbing into the far back corner of my grandmother's closet and adjusting the blankets to hide me…and falling asleep. And never being missed. My mom has pictures of me when I was 2 – asleep in the back of the closet – she thought it was so 'cute'.
I guess it does take courage to face it and talk about it and acknowledge it. But that is the only path I've found that leads to freedom. Not there yet, but closer than I've ever been.
There comes a point (at least for me) where not talking about it would have meant a loss of what sanity I had left. Another aspect to this whole healing process for survivors – especially adult survivors that never had assistance as children – or who were made to take the blame as children – is the one of mental health. There is a tremendous mental and emotional toll that accompanies surviving – and all of the emotions that were buried will come up when facing the truth – seeing things for what they really were. I haven't seen my mother for 4 years and two days (my choice). She was not interested in my getting at the truth and finding peace with it – she just wanted her status quo to be maintained….and to this day, stays in contact with and speaks glowingly of the primary perpetrator – family dynamics suck.
In addition to the familial dynamics of talking about it – most of my family has pulled way back – there is the very intense internal struggle – the guilt (do I have a right to say that?), the fear (I know I'm going to get in trouble for this), and just the plain mind/emotion shaking act of remembering and looking and letting the feelings come up and come out. It can be overwhelming. I wouldn't have been able to do it without the strong support of a very dear friend who gets it. The first year of remembering and having my familial and church worlds both shatter around me, I would lie in bed at night and just shake – I couldn't help it.
And reading other stories and seeing that what I felt, how I reacted were normal and all this baggage that I carried around really was because of 'that'….was intensely freeing. So, I need to tell my story and people need to hear it.
Thank you for hearing.
My standard snark to that sort of thing is "A God Can Do No Wrong."
Or "There is no God but Piper, and Rick is His Prophet."
Because that's what it comes down to. Whether fhat God Who Can Do No Wrong is named Ayn Rand, C.J.Mahaney, Ezzo, or Piper.
@ HUG and others on this topic:
It's amazing, the groupthink dynamic that emerges in followers. Take, for instance, an otherwise normal family I know who love Vision Forum to death. Doug Phillips is set to do a "Reformation of Food" conference this summer, as the beginning of a "conversation" (i.e., a proclamation of new doctrines that no one ever heard of before because he recently pulled them out of his hat). And right on schedule, a few months prior to the Food conference, the family mentioned above proclaims on their FB that they will only be eating "pure" food from now on and that they are watching lots of documentaries on this subject. Not surprisingly, these are the exact same documentaries Doug recommends for the conference. Coincidence? So much for independent thought and inquiry.
That's why I'm skeptical of Private Revelations.
"Pure" Food? Is this the latest Christianese diet fad?
Like whole-grain "Ezekiel XX:YY" bread, water, and nothing else plus measuring and weighing everything you pooped out until your eyes glowed and gleamed with the Holy Spirit? (I am not making that up — it was an actual Christianese fad diet some years ago; my writing partner knew someone who went on it to become more Godly. I think it was called "The Godly Diet".)
I wonder if they previewed this pure food stuff at homeschool conventions? That's a good way to get the bandwagon going in a big way. The Y2K thing went crazy in homeschool circles. I moved from VA to OR the in late 2000. I wasn't sure how widespread the hoopla was. The people in OR were just as hyped up as VA – it was funny to hear the discussion about all the left over junk people had hoarded (lots of dried beans, wheat berries, dehydrated food). Crazy bandwagon mentality.
This touches on something that is so not understood – especially in the 'we-don't-have-that-kind-of-person-in-our-church' world. My primary experience has been in dealing with Malignant Narcissists. I believe (as does my therapist) that my mom has NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). Most poeple with NPD go without official diagnosis because they won't set foot in a therapist/counselor's office – there's nothing wrong with them. There are some interesting things about this that many don't know. It is the only personality disorder (according the the professionals) that is chosen – that is to say, it is the only one where the person who has it made a conscious choice to be that way. Knowing what I know, I believe that.
The other thing is, NPDs, soiciopaths – they have absolutely no compunction about lying with complete freedom. The NPD will take great pains to present themselves as being very 'honest' but in reality will lie freely to preserve their image and squash any perceived rivals for the spotlight. That was one of the things wth my mother that was so foundationally shaking. I grew up with her as the spiritual pillar of the extended family. If it had to do with God & Christianity, she was the go-to person. And she was soooo against lying – made a very big deal about it. When the mask started coming off (I started talking to family members she had tried to alienate me from) and started asking questions – I started finding out that she lied about so many things – stupid things, even….unless you primary concern is maintaining your image as the highly-put-upon saint….
And most people, especially in churches, cannot believe someone could boldly lie to their face and they not be able to tell. Here's the thing: what makes it easy to tell when someone is lying is their own conscience. Normal people who don't like to lie will not do it well becsue they will be uncomfortable with it and that will show up in some perceptable way. NPDs – sociopaths – have no such restraint. They are not concerned about lying – see nothing wrong with it if they are doing it – they can do no wrong. The can lie with complete believability because they have no conscience telling them they shouldn't. That is what people – especially 'church' people are unwilling to accept: a) that anyone who acts and talks like a Christian could lie so deftly, and b) that anyone could effectively lie to them and get away with it.
And, as was stated in the quote above, they will charm the socks off you as long as they can get something out of it. But the minute you are no longer of use to them, they will discard you like an old rag. And if you do spot them and get in their way, they will come after you with a vengence – you've never seen manipulation like what they can do….my aunt got angry and told my mom she was just mean. My mom responded by calling the cops and telling them that my aunt was threatening her and trying to get my aunt thrown in jail. I had to talk to the officer over the phone and explain to him what really happened. There is nothing so vicious as a malignant narcissist who feels exposed.
And most pastors/elders/etc. have no concept how to deal with this. Most people, generally speaking, like to believe the best of people and its hard to believe that someone could behave in such an evil fashion. Until you've looked it in the eye and had it look you back….
Also, these people will turn on the waterworks and 'confess' freely – to whatever they have been caught at (NOTE: Only what they have been caught red-handed at, they will deny mere accusations with great vehemence). But their 'confession' and 'remorse' will always be self-serving. They will take the confession and use it as just another way to put themselves in the 'good' light adn make themselves the center.
Eagle –
I know. It makes sad some days, angry others.
The system is, at best, a man-made thing that is sick….
And the system is a magnet for narcissists – – and pedophiles, by the way, are narcissists of the first order. Listen to one who has been caught and tries to justify their actions. At best, they will try to make you think the child likes it, even needs it.
Hmm…narcissists are encapable of empathy. I can remember so many times telling my mother that something she was doing hurt – and her response was simply, "Oh, it does not!" in a very dismissive tone. In their mind, no one feels anything except what the narcissist says they should – and when someone defies this 'truth' they will be punished.
And in the 'church system' we have created, narcissists have a perfect set-up.
– become a pastor/minister
– get a steady supply of hurt and broken people who have, by other abusers, already been conditioned to believe anything they sense that tells them somethings wrong is just their own damage talking….
– manipulate, control. groom and create your little kingdom to your heart's content, learning along the way how to twist the Bible to back up wathever the manipulative doctrine dujour might be.
I don't trust the system any more. It isn't safe. I trust God (mostly, and that has taken a lot of time to build). But this abusive system? No.
I'm thinking POLITICS is the true magnet for narcissist.
Hester
To quote a nutirtionist at Tufts- Nutritionists think they will be healthy and live forever. They aren’s and they don’t. The next thing they will be pushing is crystals.
HUG
These are poorly educated people. I went to one site in which the woman was proclaiming the Leviticus diet so that she could eat what God told her to eat. Guess she is far more”godly” than everyone else therefore she is saved.
Julie Anne
The Y2K really brought out the “best” in God’s people. One guy I knew decided to go “off grid.” Got the seeds, the generator, the hoe and learned to make soap from scratch. he also stocked up on guns and ammo. I quipped that i knew where I was going when things went bad. In all seriousness, he said that I wouldn’t be allowed because he was taking care of himself and people stepping onto his property would be shot! This is a “Christian.”
Jeanette
Thank you for your excellent description of NPD, I have one caveat. When you said “most pastors/elders” have no clue how to deal with it, I would like to add that there are pastors and elders who fit the bill for NPD. That is why they entered the pastorate. Power over a few poeple who absolutely adore them. There are just as many NPD folks in the ministry as their ware in the congregation.
Jimmy
It is politics, the pastorate, and any position in which one can be the authority and be adored. I can list many, many professions in which that is true.
Ever figure this is what Jesus was talking about when he said "For the Devil himself can change himself to appear as an Angel of Light"? (No Spiritual Allegory, End Time Prophecy, or Spiritual Warfare interpretation needed.)
Dee-
Absolutely. The pastor of my former church fits this bill exactly – and his wife is always 'cleaning up' after him….and when he's confronted with irrefutable evidence of his actions – and recognizes he's in danger of losing his kingdom – he's all tears and repentances – and twisting the events to make himself look like the victim. And she buys it, gets a new house or car or some such, things settle down for a while, until he finds his next victim and it starts all over again. It is a sick cycle of narcissistic abuse and enabling. And he is worshipped by his congregation – even calls himself "Lord John" – because Jesus is "Lord of lords"….
HUG-
Yup!
Guy's that full of himself, huh?
Fascinating discussion on NPD. I learned about this disorder years ago while trying to figure out what the heck was wrong with the husband of someone very dear to me and why I felt so sick with dread every time I knew he'd be around. Very, very into 'Biblical patriarchy'. He was super charming before they were married, but she became a different person after she married him. Outgoing to withdrawn. Bubbly and carefree to pessimistic and painstakingly careful. Healthy and active to sickly and helpless. The transformation was painful to watch, especially when I would see the "old" version of her come out in brief moments when he wasn't around only to be quickly tucked away again when he returned. I also noted how differently he would treat her when it was only familiar women in the room, compared to his public treatment of her or even if my husband would enter the room (suddenly Mr. Charming nice guy). And how any sign of her old, spirited self that showed itself around him was shushed or reprimanded, while sickliness (and she became 'sick' quite often) was the only thing to earn his doting attentions. It was not uncommon for him to answer any questions directed at her, for her. I miss her so, terribly much. The only reason I never question her about it is because I know she would dutifully tell him, and I fear he would cut all ties. This is one of the biggest causes of my questioning of all the things Patriarchal and Reformed that I've attached to my faith.
This man believes he is called to be in church leadership. Surprising? And if he pursues it, I am certain he will attain it because he is Charming and people hang onto every word he says when he talks. What kills me is that they would actually take his wife's demeanor as evidence that he is fit to rule *ahem* I mean serve. The man has it made.
Personally I think anyone who believes they are called to be a leader, proves that they are not qualified.
Hmm…speaking of narcissists in the pulpit….this brings up another issue.
Many people who have not sat under an NPD pastor can't understand why people don't just leave.
Another characteristic of narcissists/sociopaths is they can be extremely charismatic – charming, eloquent speakers, often very intelligent. They are experts at throwing out a well baited hook – treating newcomers like royalty, teaching about all the wonderful things God has for those who obey Him….then they slowly, carefully, begin defining what 'obey' means – and how far away from it you are. Over time, people are taught to follow that elusive 'carrot on a stick' doctrine to the point that they become afraid of 'straying away from the path.'
A narcissist who has been at this a while knows how to manipulate people's minds and emotions expertly – and twists them into the place where they actually believe he has all the answers. Then, over time, as the facade begins to slip (and it will), they have become so convinced that this 'man' holds their spiritual destiny in his hands, they stay out of just plain fear – or….they have invested so much time and energy into the 'man and his ministry' that they feel like they have too much to lose if they walk away – these are often narcissists in training…and thet are very dangerous to the 'squeaky wheel'. I have rarely seen malice to match that of a narcisst exposed. If you want to truly see evil in action, try to expose a narcisst to those he (or she) is controlling.
It take incredible strength of will to break free of the control of a narcissist, once entangled. When I walked away from my former church, I was terrified he was going to come after me. When I finally cut my mother off completly, I was afraid of her. Fear is a big thing – and they also are experts at playing the 'victim/guilt' card any time they think you might be slipping away. And they have no qualms about making it clear that God is on their side (they probably belive he is, if they think about that at all) making it where defying them is defying God Himself.
Leaving is not so easy….
Jeanette, Well said.
in fact, in studying narcissism one of the warnings is to be wary of very "charismatic wonderful people" and give it time to know them better. But most people are just the opposite. They fall for it.
One of the things that always amazes me the most is that people will say of their favorite Christian celebrity what a great man he is. And this is based only on knowing him from a stage or a 5 min convo after a talk where he is so nice and "took the time to really talk to us". This is not based on really knowing him and his family up close and personal.
Is this wise? I find it scary. Cult of personality stuff
"Here's the thing: what makes it easy to tell when someone is lying is their own conscience. Normal people who don't like to lie will not do it well becsue they will be uncomfortable with it and that will show up in some perceptable way. NPDs – sociopaths – have no such restraint. They are not concerned about lying – see nothing wrong with it if they are doing it – they can do no wrong. The can lie with complete believability because they have no conscience telling them they shouldn't. That is what people – especially 'church' people are unwilling to accept: a) that anyone who acts and talks like a Christian could lie so deftly, and b) that anyone could effectively lie to them and get away with it. — Jeanette Altes"
And these are the lies that are believed. One reason why narcissist also seek such positions as ministry is because it is easier to lie and manipulate when you are not interacting with people all the time. It takes longer to get caught. In ministry, you are the lead guy and pretty much work "alone" except when presenting or teaching where you are in charge. No one talks back, either, while you are "presenting". And when people finally start questioning inconsistencies, they have no leg to stand on because they 'went along with it for years". And the narcissist turns it into an "attack".
One has to spend a lot of time with an educated and professional narcissist to figure it out. They are sociopaths without a real conscious.
Nobody is as Nice and Helpful as a sociopath.
Nobody is as Concerned, Compassionate, or Sincere as a sociopath.
Until the instant you have outlived your usefulness. – Headless Unicorn Guy
Oh my word, how true! This is called Narcissistic supply. Once it stops, you have outlived your usefulness because it is all about them getting their "supply". Then life becomes brutal.
http://www.bookendpublishers.com/page8.html
"I Promise to Hate Despise and Abuse You Until Death Do Us Part"
Link to a must read if you think you might be married to a narcissist.
This topic is hitting close to home for me.
I referred to this link: Narcissm in the Pulpit in one of my Google reviews which then became part the $500,000 defamation lawsuit brought on by my former pastor against me and others. (The pastor/atty neglected to inform the court that it was a hyperlink, but my attorney corrected that.)
It's pretty good.
Someone mentioned above about lying as one of the key signs. There were a number of things that caught my attention, but this one was probably the most startling of all. Pastors are simply not supposed to lie.
By the way, the court hearing is only 5 days away 1:30 PM pacific time.
Julie Anne –
I thought of you as I wrote my comments.
Another thing that has been hard learned for me is this: you cannot reason with a narcissist. You cannot appeal to their decency. They are not reasonable and they do not opperate from a place of common decency. They are not rational and continuing to expect them to rrspond rationally to circumstances is futile. They will react with unexpected rage at what seems like nothing – they see it as a threat to their control/image-of-the-perfect-"fill in the blank'. They will seem reasonable when you expected a fight.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, when in a fight with a narcissist, limit direct interaction to as little as possible (they will twist every word you say in ways that defy sanity) and do not think you will be able, by anything you do, to open their eyes to what they are doing. As long as you think you can influence them with reasonable and rational discource, they will always have you twisting in the wind – because the only way to get their attention is to offer them what they crave (adoration/admiration/defense-against-those-who-see, OR get in their business and call them for what they are. Both are dangerous….
This is a pretty dark topic, but obviously one that must be addressed. I have a question in regards to NPD. Can someone with NPD cloak their behaviour with extreme humility? There's a woman I know that comes across to me as suffering from NPD, but her 'god' talk, and her 'servant's heart', make her appear to most as being the most Jesus-like person one would ever want to meet. That is, until you figure out her secret. She's an amazing care-giver, swooping in on people who are both physically and spiritually hurt. She nutures, prays, annoints with oil, pays hospital bills, all in the name of her 'beautiful Lord and Savior'. But once you're healthy, and begin to see through all of that, she become defensive and goes on the attack. Tries to appear hurt and disappointed that one would question her. Then comes the anger and attack.
Unfortunately, most people in her world never have the courage or the means to resist. It's quite a sad, and to me, scary scenerio. But then, I wonder if maybe I'm the one who doesn't understand. She's fooled so many over such a longer period of time. And the people closet to her, husband, son, and daughter, who OUGHT to know her the best, are her most ardent defenders.
Maybe one of my TWW brothers or sisters can shed some light on this situation.
Jack-
YThis woman sounds a lot like my mother. Yes, they can and will cloak themselves in humility. And of course her husband and children are her most ardent defenders. They have been meticulously trained to be – and the consequences of not are serious in a family dynamic.
My mother could display acts of astonishing gernerosity – where you really get to see who they are is when they are not able to gain any image-burnishing mileage or kudos out of the act.
Hmm…just thinking about my own experiences…perhaps the more they seem to need to talk about how 'godly' they are, ther more likely it is just smoke and mirrors. The most humble, Christ-like people I've know don't talk much about it except with a few close friends. They just do whether they're being recognized or not – take praise with a mix of grace and ackwardness and treat you with kindness whether you 'need' it our not.
From your desciption, it sounds like this woman may get her 'supply' from projecting the image of an 'angel of mercy'. And if you do not need her 'merciful ministrations', you are of no use to her…and one of the most serious crimes you can commit (in the eyes of a barcissist) is to question their perfect motives and image. That will bring the'wrath of god' in a hurry….
"Another thing that has been hard learned for me is this: you cannot reason with a narcissist. You cannot appeal to their decency. They are not reasonable and they do not opperate from a place of common decency."
Only communicate in writing. email is so perfect for a document trail and harder for them to twist but they still will. Narcissist hate putting stuff only in writing.
"I have a question in regards to NPD. Can someone with NPD cloak their behaviour with extreme humility?"
jack, this is not exactly the same as the woman you mention but interesting. An article on "self deprecating narcissist in ministry" by Jack Watts.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jack-watts/selfdeprecating-narcissis_b_843434.html
The, "I am worst sinner" type would be CJ Mahaney
The woman sounds like my cousin. Her good works are all for show and only those who know her well, steer clear of her. But once she helps you, she owns you in a way as you are to extol her greatness to others. Problem is, it is anti Matthew 6.
That was the reason so many people I knew were leery of a certain Barack Obama in 2008. Because his campaign strategy was that of Messiah Figure Politics and his campaign managers had spun him as a "Charismatic Wonderful Person".
"I tell you One and One make Three —
I'm the Cult of Personality!"
…
"You give me Honor
You give me Fame;
You give me Power
In your God's name;
I'm all that you wish me to be —
I'm the Cult of Personality!"
Something else to consider:
WHEN DEALING WITH A NARCISSIST OR SOCIOPATH, YOU WILL ALWAYS BE IN A ONE-DOWN POSITION. <b>ALWAYS.</b>
For the same reason you will be in a one-down position competing against a drooling fanboy, Big Name Netizen, or opposing a Trust-Fund Baby Political/Social Activist.
Because you "have a life" — job, relationships, interests. He doesn't. Everything in his life, 24/7/365, is dedicated to feeding his narcissism, to manipulating and forcing his will on others, manipulating and abusing you. You have other things in your life. He doesn't. He can think twenty moves ahead of you on the chessboard, maneuvering you into a hopeless position against him (I saw this happen in the feud that wrecked my family, a Maneuver to Checkmate that took over ten YEARS to set up, step by step, deception by deception, manipulation by manipulation, poisoned mind by poisoned mind, chess move by chess move). Because he has NOTHING else in his existence, 24/7/365.
Eagle said:
"I don't get many church leaders. I know my flaws, demons, and past quite well. If I get into a church again i would never want to be in a ministry position. Who am I to lecture others and correct them when I have my own shortfalls? I never figured this out….I saw people lecture others, correct others while they themself had their own issues. I don't get it."
This reminds me of a ministry in my area that I'm highly suspicious of. It's a Pentecostal / Charismatic-type ministry, which invites "apostles," "prophets," etc. to speak frequently. It cropped up out of nowhere a few years ago and what caught my attention what the pastor's name (we'll call him Mr. Smith). Mr. Smith used to be in our homeschool group, married to his wife M with two or three kids. The family left the group and none of us kept in touch with them. Well, all of a sudden, here's Mr. Smith again leading this ministry, and when I looked at his bio he's now married to a woman named F with NO mention of kids AT ALL.
Now I realize I don't have all the information here, but short of the whole family dying in an accident, don't you think you'd mention your kids, especially if you're a "Christian man" who should be supporting his family? Or if you got divorced from your first wife, why not be up front about it? You've got nothing to hide, right? …Right?
Jack and Anon 1 :
Someone with NPD can "act" like they are extremely humble, but in reality they are not humble. Their actions always have a selve-serving purpose and they are always trying to "gain" something with everything they do.
I am aware of a man who probably has NPD and wrote a book on humility.
sickening, sickening stuff. Horriffic (beyond horriffic) for the victims. I was molested (in a relatively minhor way) as a very young child and, despite significant healing, some of the scar tissue on my soul will remain all the days of my earthly life. My heart breaks to imagine the agony of the children subjected to this extreme.
The church can be so ignorant. It is ignorant of what true repentance looks like ('just say a little prayer' — ugh) True repentance surrenders it's own rights in order to make amends to the ones it has harmed. True repentance is horror-struck by the pain it has caused another human being, made in the image of God. It humbles itself and deliberately stays away from temptations to re-offend.
The church is ignorant of basic psychology. Even in the far-less-fundamentalist climate over here I have encountered this in former churches. At one point, when I was receiving counseling for abuse issues, a certain church leader disagreed strongly with some common sense advice I had been given. "You know what will happen to you if you believe psychology!" I was warned (umm .. no I don't .. when did believing psychology mean disbelieving in Jesus? Actually, I have no idea what his threat meant) Because they are ignorant of psychological realities, they swallow all kinds of fairytales that manipulators spin them and know nothing about how hard and improbable such recovery really is. Because they are ignorant of psychology they discount and minimise the harm done to the victims, and/or believe insane scenarios like little children seducing helpless grown men.
The church is ignorant of the preciousness of its vulnerable ones, because it's all about the men. "Suffer the little children," said Jesus, as the KJV translates it, "and forbid them not." But segments of the church prefer to keep forbidding the children and making them suffer. They are sacrificial victims in the temples of lust.
The church is ignorant of how to clean things up. They think that problems will go away if they are covered up. Just the past week an horrendous paedophile scandal in the Catholic Church has come to light, again high up people covered things up so the scandal wouldn't happen. Who do they think they'refooling? If the church will not clean up its act, then God will bring the world in to MAKE it accountable. And history repeats itself yet again ..
Is a church that shows itself so ignorant of righteousness and love equally ignorant of the heart of God? We can only judge by the fruit we see
My ex-husband had NPD. I think the reason it is not obvious when a person with NPD is telling a lie is that the person actually believes what he/she is saying is the truth. (As in, “I’m always right so, if I believe/say it, it is true.”). A friend of mine recently met my ex, not knowing who he was. She described him as “charming”. (I hate that word! He was charming to others but cruel to his family.). Anyway, she began to figure out who he must be. When she asked him if he knew me, he said “no”, even when she pressed him. She left totally confused. When she told me what had happened, I started laughing – still am laughing over it! Mind you, we were only married 25 years! This is someone who would be the first to say lying is wrong and should be punished severely. This kind of behavior was so typical and living with him was so crazy-making. I am free of his web now and have stopped trying to make sense of his behavior. You can’t make rational out of irrational. One thing I know for sure, though, is that it was all about him and his reality was the “truth”. Anyone without discernment will get sucked into it.
I went to the same church as the pastor in Dee’s post. No wonder I did not get any support or protection from him or anyone else in leadership since my ex was “such a good Christian”. This was before I knew how “easily deceived” I was and that I could not possibly have anything of value to say simply because I was a woman. (Sarcasm intended!)
Having read the comments now, I think that Jeannette's mother and mine must be twins. I might add that while my mother always presents as such a sweet lady, it's like the jam that hides the nasty tasting medicine (or poison, in this case) She is 87 now, and the mask is starting to slip a little. I have never seen her actually apologise for anything in her entire life. When I showed my sisters material on being the daughters of narcissistic mothers, it was their great eye-opener, and, God willing, the beginning of their liberation. One of her techniques (common to many NPDs) is didvide and conquer. Nothing upsets her more than to see her adult children talking to each other. We start discovering the lies when we compare notes.
Imagine what you might do if you had no conscience!, that is what makes these people so dangerous! To an NPD, they are the only real person, the rest of us are just images, reflections in a mirror, puppets to be manipulated to their script. They don't actually believe that anyone else's feelings matter, that's why they don't care!
Abby, HUG, Jeanette, Eagle, Dee, Jan, Anon 1, Julie Anne, Jack, Bridget, Abigail –
Wow. Such a great, enlightening conversation on NPD/sociopathy. I was nodding at what all of you were saying, and recognising my old pastor in the traits you mentioned.
He was witty and charming, intelligent, and a technically excellent preacher … but had no empathy, compassion or ability to respond to people's emotional needs when interacting one-on-one. I thought it was telling when a young woman in the church, who had known him from when he was at seminary in the USA, said to me, "He doesn't do well with crying people. That's not his thing."
(Of course, my family and I discovered the extent of his deception and ability to con others when we called him out on certain things. The elders sided with him, attempted a character assassination on us, and he emerged unscathed.)
Abby, your comment – "They don't get that character does not equal personal niceness or likeability" – is SO true. It made me think of a quote by Gavin De Becker, in his book The Gift of Fear:
When I came across that section of the book, I was struck by how applicable it was to so many facets of the church (and life!). There's often pressure to conform to an ideal of niceness instead of authentic goodness.
Thanks everyone for such great, insightful comments on NPD and sociopathy.
After persevering in reformed circles for about 20 years, it took only 2 years under a sociopathic, young "senior pastor" to put me permanently off church.
My adult children and I had proof (e-mails) of the lies this young man told but the elders of this reformed baptist church chose to protect their highly educated (DMin from John MacArthur's Master's Seminary), charming, witty, intelligent cash-cow.
These elders obviously viewed us as expendable collateral damage in this young man's growing ministry. 🙁
"We must learn and then teach our children that niceness does not equal goodness. Niceness is a decision, a strategy of social interaction; it is not a character trait. People seeking to control others almost always present the image of a nice person in the beginning."
How interesting. I just had this exact same convo with my 11 year old this past week. Niceness does not equal character or integrity.
"This was before I knew how “easily deceived” I was and that I could not possibly have anything of value to say simply because I was a woman. (Sarcasm intended!)"
Abigail, it took me years of beating my head against a brick wall before I, too, realised this! (Sarcasm also intended!)
"After persevering in reformed circles for about 20 years, it took only 2 years under a sociopathic, young "senior pastor" to put me permanently off church."
MM, I am absolutely convinced we are seeing a form of mass narcissism in the New Calvinist/YRR movement. These young men are being told only they have correct doctrine and THEIR correct doctrine is all important. It is more important than actual people. They are listening to Driscoll and emulating him. They really do think Mahaney is humble. They cannot wait to carry out "church discipline". It affirms their correct doctrine. We are even starting to see some stories come out about Captiol Hill and things are not what they seem there. Anyone hear of Matthew Hill? What a strange story.
There are some very creepy things about this movement and their allegiance to Calvin, Augustine, Piper, Mohler, Dever, etc. I have come to see T4G as nothing but a Amway convention. And what we are seeing on blogs from the NC guys is nothing but arrogance and pride of knowledge. Puffed up.
I think we are going to see massive fall out from this movement over the next 5-10 years. It is authoritarian and lacking in love. And I am meeting more and more former Calvinists who are now athiests or agnostic who were before firebrand Calvinists! I mean I know many non Calvinists who left the church but they were not born again athiests!
You could not pay me to go to a YRR church. I warn others as best I can. I was able to warn two people recently about an Acts 29 church plant in my city. And I know 4 people who have left that church plant in the past year over just the things we are talking about.
And what is the deal with Piper hooking up with Doug Wilson. Just a few years back, Wilson was considered the fringe of the Reformed movement. He is a theonomist. A sort of papa pilgrim with his own fiefdom who welcomed the defrocked Sproul Jr with open arms. . More and more of the fringe stuff is becoming mainstream for the NC movement and it is very scary.
Abigail,
A friend of mine was married to someone exactly like your ex for 16 years. She did not divorce for a long time because she thought she had no biblical grounds. Until she found David Instone Brewer. Her husband was a professing Christian and a congenital liar. Involved in every bible study, served in a mega church, etc., etc. She was not praying enough or submissive enough when she went to counseling. See it was ALL her. Not him.. He of course LOVED comp doctrine. It fit in with his narcissistic supply perfectly. If she said anything he did not like he simply quoted Proverbs about a nagging wife. When she stopped staying silent and started confronting him on lies, he got violent. And she divorced.
He remarried soon after and guess where he met his new wife? eHarmony. This is a perfect example of how niceness and seemingly Christian behavior can mask a huge problem. They were married within 5 months of having a long distance relationship. So this new wife has married an NPD sociopath who is a great Christian on the outside. (tic)
Dee and Deb, This is off topic but you are going to love it:
http://crankycontrarianchristiancommentary.com/2012/01/30/is-the-gospel/
Seems we aren't the only ones who have a problem with this
Eagle, I can believe it. You know what? I am so focused on the people who get involved in these authoritarian clubs. What is the deal? Is it because our country has become so socialistic they are attracted to people who will "lead them"? What is attracting young people to authoritarian rule?
Anon 1,
Thanks for the link to the ‘cranky contrarian’.
I have been following all the NPD commentary and am beginning to detect a link between this serious disorder and presuming to know what is ‘Biblical” or the “Gospel’. What do you think?
You know, Scientology is also well-known for opposing Psychology(TM) at every turn. What level Operating Thetan was this certain church leader?
What is the deal? Is it because our country has become so socialistic they are attracted to people who will "lead them"? What is attracting young people to authoritarian rule? — Anon1
Not "socialistic", Anon (unless they're being attracted to Ayn Rand). More like "overwhelming" and "pessimistic".
There's this psychological phenomenon called "Displacement Behavior". When everything around you is spiraling out of control and overwhelms you, there's this tendency to find something you CAN control and micromanage it to death. (Like enforcing rigid Dress Codes on all home office personnel while the company circles the drain.)
And when things get overwhelming, you are also pulled towards someone who Has All The Answers, seems to know what they're doing, someone who tells you exactly What to Do and What to Think, just to make the thrashing stop. (And it's also a load off your mind when you're only responsibiltiy is to Follow.) In American politics, this becomes Messiah Politics, where a candidate (be he Ross Perot or Barack Obama) presents himself as the Coming Messiah figure.
And "young people" adds another Element of Disharmony to the mix. In most human societies, positions of authority and power are mostly held by older men. And young men want to try to become these rich and powerful older men. Subconsciously, maybe they see it as a leg up — found your own Church and become your own Authority. Or follow the Great Leader like scavengers after an apex predator, hoping to one day become the apex predator themselves.
Dee, I appreciate your post. People like David Chatham should be in jail where he belongs for his sins and crimes against children. Churches, pastors, elders, leaders should be educated on the risks child molesters pose to the community and not let them get off easily.
I feel the abusers should carry the consequences of their awful sins against children and no one should get in the way of having the punishment meted out to them. This is the effectivey way to deter crimes. I do not care if Chatham really has a true conversion or not, he still has to pay for the crimes he committed. I know the grace of God reaches out and forgive the sinner but God is holy; He hates sin and does not let sin go unpunished in this life or the next.
I wonder if the pastors and church people involved in this case may not be well acquainted with the sinful nature of fallen man, total depravity, moral corruption, that is… As far as I know, a Chrisitan who walks after the flesh behaves the same way unbelievers do, there is no difference. Perhaps that's one of the reasons why the Southern Baptists can't reduce the 50% divorce rate; if they can't do this, what hope can they judge or discern someone else's repentance, like that of David Chatham?
Come on, wake up. be strong, be of good courage and call sin sin and let the criminals be punished and give justice to the ones who suffer.
I wonder if all of these people who run from psychology pay attention to the reports of meterologists, or seismologists, or police criminal profiles?
My former pastor talked down psychology time and again from the pulpit, but then quietly completed his degree . . . . in psychology. I couldn't make this stuff up.
Would a narcissist recognize their own profile?
Anon1
Thanks for the link to Jack Watt's article. I think Jack has insight into this matter. I think it's worth to quote him here:
"The concept of "self-deprecating narcissism" may seem like an oxymoron, but I can assure you, it is not. It does, however, require defining. As a caveat, let me acknowledge that not all of the stars of electric Christianity have this character flaw, but a substantial number do. There are a few exceptions — precious few."
I know some narcissists alright, inside and outside the church. I do think they are delusional, self-deceived. It reminds me of Gal 6:3 "For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself."
I can understand someone who writes and talks and preaches about humility to the whole world yet is not at all a humble man. It's the deceifulness of sin, I think that's what the WORD says.
Eagle:
"I don't get many church leaders. I know my flaws, demons, and past quite well. If I get into a church again i would never want to be in a ministry position. Who am I to lecture others and correct them when I have my own shortfalls? I never figured this out….I saw people lecture others, correct others while they themself had their own issues. I don't get it."
You are exactly the kind of person the church needs. So badly. IF you re-adopt faith and rejoin the church, remember that you have something to contribute even if you don't want to be a leader. I know you're agnostic but you have things to say that the church needs to hear. You have no idea how many times you've said things that I needed to hear. And I'm no agnostic.
"Displacement Behavior".
Thanks HUG. I am going to look into this further because it is going on all around us in business, church, society. In my city alone there are 20,000 people on a waiting list for help with housing and food stamp recipients are up 40%. There is despair in the air we breathe. And the heat ain't helpin.
. As to enforcing a rigid dress code when the ship is sinking, I have seen that tons of times.
"I have been following all the NPD commentary and am beginning to detect a link between this serious disorder and presuming to know what is ‘Biblical” or the “Gospel’. What do you think?"
What passes for Christianity often, isn't.
Guys I am doing a study on "kingdom" in the NT. Amazing how many times it is used. Amazing what it almost always refers to. Here and now.
Thanks for this http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html article. Number 8 says:
"8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him"
This reminded me of some odd statements CJ Mahaney made at the recent Resolved Conference in one of his speeches. He started talking about the world class speakers at Resolved. How it is such a blessing to come to conferences…how conferences were all that and more…how necessary they are and how one gets to hear awesome godly speakers, what a blessing blessing blessing… etc.
He sais something very strange about comparing one's local pastor with the awesome and world class speakers one hears at conferences like Resolved. He spent several minutes on this theme. CJ said–do not compare your local church pastor with us awesome ones. It is sin to do so. He said that all of you will compare us with them–no doubt about it–so don't sin by doing what I have just told you that you will (not might) do. He did not say you might compare,.he specifically said you WILL compare and it is sin- so do not give into it because it is a horrible thing to do. Mighty high opinion CJ seems to have of himself. Why plant this temptation to compare pastors in someone's mind? Why does it even occur to him? I think people do have the brains to realize their local church pastor is not a celeb like they. How self-absorbed and condescending.
OKeeeee–so Resolved has awesomely awesome world class speakers; implication is that you perhaps have a not so awesome local church pastor; we have these conferences so you can come see the world class godly speakers; yet–CJ knows for a fact you will compare the awesome speakers with lhe local church pastors; that is a sin and you are not to give in to that temptation; yet, we will still have our conferences and tempt you with our awesomeness….but don't even think about comparing our world class awesomeness with your own pastor's lack thereof. That is some kind of bizarre crazy. Quit having the conferences and leading us into temptation then. Wouldn't that be the most loving thing to do since comparing pastors is such a sin and they are responsible for providing the means for this particular sin? What a bunch of crazy.
Diane
CJ believes that he is amongst the awesome people-kind of like the beautiful people. We are slumming locally, obviously. Blechh,…
Dee-
“I have been following all the NPD commentary and am beginning to detect a link between this serious disorder and presuming to know what is ‘Biblical” or the “Gospel’. What do you think?”
I absolutely think there is a connection.
“I have been following all the NPD commentary and am beginning to detect a link between this serious disorder and presuming to know what is ‘Biblical” or the “Gospel’. What do you think?” Dee
Dee, I think you are on to something. Before my ex left, he decided that I was not “saved” because of my many “sins” (i.e., I was not perfect like he was and was committing the unpardonable sin of disobeying him). He went to many of my friends and, with much anguish, told them how concerned he was for my salvation. He even told me “I know you love Jesus” (his actual words!) but that my disobedience and behavior proved I was not saved. (I can’t make this stuff up!) I think if the words “Biblical” or “Gospel” had been in vogue back then, he would have used them. He, alone, was the authority on what the Bible meant and what was in my heart. (Funny, none of the verses ever applied to him.) He believed it was his responsibility to make me godly (as defined by him) which is where the abuse came in. Are NPD and arrogance concerning the scriptures (which is behind the oh-so-godly labels of “Biblical” and “Gospel”) related? Most definitely!
As an aside, it’s nice to be believed and valued by my TWW family! 🙂
Abigail
Your ex husband committed a serious sin, which he overlooked, on judging. The judging admonition has to do with salvation not with judging one sin or another that is clearly outlined in Scripture (for example, drunkeness). There are quite a few NeoCals and others out there these days that seem to have a lock on who is saved and not saved. This is evil and destructuve and is totally above our pay grade. Christians do this to one another to justify their own virtuous, and most like narcissitic, life. I am sorry that he did that to you. He best watch out .The Almighty does not take kindly to someone pushing Him off the throne.
“Nowhere do we tempt as successfully as at the very foot of the altar!”
— Screwtape
So does Scientology.
With Elron, it came down to Psychology is unwanted competiton for Dianetics. Is the same dynamic at work?
“With Elron, it came down to Psychology is unwanted competiton for Dianetics. Is the same dynamic at work?” – HUG
I think that this is sometimes the reason. I think sometimes it is just plain fear of looking inward. But another reason is when the leader is a Narcissist, well – psychology would expose them…..
I find the discussion of NPD strong reminiscent of that Weird Al classic “Why Does This Always Happen to Me?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szAJ3J44Zug
It’s tongue in cheek, but yet…