You have suffered grievously and I am truly sorry. I know that nothing can undo the wrong you have endured. Your trust has been betrayed and your dignity has been violated. We are all scandalised by the sins and failures of some of the Church's members.
Pope Benedict XVI
FIC Pastor and International Fugitive-Eddie Rojas
A Plea to the World-Wide Church to Change “Business as Usual"
I am in a state of outrage and shock as I contemplate, once again, the issue of pedophilia and the church. I believe that this sin will haunt our generation and the next as the numbers of children who were molested and ignored grow into adults, continuing the cycle of sexual abuse, substance abuse, unresolved pain and broken relationships. Many in the church sit quietly by, hoping that no one will notice their “faux pas.” And in so doing, they create the next generation of the wounded while stupidly believing that their first responsibility is to protect the reputation of the church.
Folks, I have news for you. We are kidding ourselves. Because of the Internet and the news media, the world sees the church as it is, filled with sinners. Yet, we sinners like to pretend we are saints. And sadly, sometimes we believe our own press.
The reputation of the church is not our responsibility. It is the responsibility of God. Our responsibility is to care for the victims and their families, FIRST! We are to do the right thing, even if it embarrasses us. And, if we truly understand the Bible, why should we be embarrassed to admit we sin? Isn’t that why we need Jesus?
The following Bible verses, Matthew 25:41-46 (NIV), strongly reminds us of our responsibility.
41Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,
43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Immediately prior to the start of TWW, we both became enmeshed in a horrendous pedophile incident that deeply wounded a number of teen boys. We found the response of that church naive, cold, and ostrich-like as pastors passed the buck. You may read an allegorized version of our thoughts under “Wonderland” in our categories section.
This experience was a defining moment for the two of us. We are dedicated to exposing the issues surrounding the pedophilia plague in today’s evangelical churches. Even more, we wish to change “business as usual” and help churches to respond in a Christ-like manner.
Many people are outraged over the abysmal response by Penn State officials to the reported pedophile behavior of Jerry Sandusky. Unfortunately, we, the church, dedicated to caring for the least of these, have a track record that mimics that secular world. Is our faith in Christ so impotent that we cannot deal with the issues surrounding pedophilia? Is this the sin of today’s church: acting like some mid-level state college bureaucrat?
Today I shall tell the story of Danielle and her family. You can read the entire sordid and painful ordeal at her blog: Our Story: Help, link, a poignant title if there was ever one. Tomorrow, I shall tell the story of the church via the perspective of one of the elders.
Here is what I would like our readers to do. As you read the story, take note of how this was handled. See if you can spot the theological problems with the response of those in the church. I believe that it is a misunderstanding of the gospel that leads us to make these “mistakes.” Yet isn’t this the generation of Calvinists who preach that they know the “gospel?”
I called the pedophile, Patrick Rojas as well as an elder, Jim Cameron from Peninsula Household of Faith Community Church where this incident took place. I also spoke with a highly placed leader in the central office of Household of Faith. I agreed not to name him but hasten to assure our readers that he is in a position to speak authoritatively for the organization.
I also want to make a couple of points before I begin. This is a painful story with many missteps. I do not blame the church for the presence of a pedophile in its midst. Pedophiles are found in many churches because people in church tend to “trust” one another a bit too much. (Calvinistas preach the total depravity thing but act like they are only capable of sinning in a small way such as sipping a bit too many microbrews).
Secondly, I believe that the elder at the church is beginning to deal with his own mistakes in this matter. Having been in another situation in which the leaders have yet to admit to any difficulties with their approach, I found his occasional clarity hopeful. Both men prayed for me, which is the first time that I have had that happen in my hard-hitting interviews of the last 3 years. I did have to smile when one prayed that God would give me zeal to protect the innocent. I told him afterwards that my husband would pray for a little less zeal. I give them props for speaking with me. That didn’t have to do so.
The convicted pedophile, Patrick Rojas, said he would return my call and I told him when I would post his story. He did not call me back. This is an important fact in evaluating the theology and deception within this story.
Next week I will also be discussing a terrible pedophile situation that occurred in a missionary hospital in Bangladesh. Many children of missionaries were deeply hurt and the pedophile doctor was allowed to return to the United States and his horrendous acts were not reported. He continued to practice medicine here in the States for years.
I want to emphasize that I sought out this story after I learned about it through the news media. Danielle graciously allowed this stranger into her pain. She is a courageous, honest woman and I thank God that He has allowed me to get to know her.
Danielle’s Story
Danielle Schneider and her husband were on the lookout for a warm, intimate, Biblically solid church, which supported families. They were also homeschoolers and hoped to participate in a homeschooling community. They thought they had found such a place in the Peninsula Household of Faith Community Church in Post Orchard and moved to this small town in Washington so they could easily fellowship with this community.
They absolutely loved Eddie Rojas, the pastor, his wife, Kathy, and their brood of 12 children who all lived at home, including an older son, Patrick who was 22 years old along with two older siblings. It was Danielle's understanding that the Rojas' believed all children were to live at home until they got married. Eddie and his family exhibited servant-like qualities. They would help their small community of believers at the drop of a hat. They also appeared to be a fun, outgoing and happy family-role models for their church.
In retrospect, Danielle believes that some in the church appeared fearful of the government and seemed to emphasize that all matters should be handled inside the church. In other words, they were a closed system masquerading as being Biblically faithful.
It is important to note that this is a family integrated church. This means that children are never alone with adults, other than their parents, for any church sponsored activity. Danielle, sadly, made the point that she was molested as a child and considers herself hyper-vigilant. She would not allow her kids to sleep over at other friends' homes and believed that this church was a safe environment.
At the end of 2006, Danielle was pregnant with their 6th child and her husband was dealing with testicular cancer. They were also living in the basement of a church member and needed to move into their own home. She said to me, “We were needy.” The entire Rojas family pitched in to support them. They were grateful that Patrick took an interest in their sons, offering to take them hunting, etc. The night before a scheduled hunting trip, Patrick spent the night in their living room since they were planning for a very early start.
Two months would pass. On January 3, 2007, after Patrick had visited, Danielle found a letter hidden under her 11-year-old daughter’s pillow. This note would forever change the Schneider’s world. In the letter he confessed to taking something “very precious” from their daughter. Their daughter reported this one incident of contact with Patrick and seemed to have a foggy memory of exactly what happened. This is probably due to dissociation, which can occur during molestations.
They contacted Eddie Rojas who came over to the house with Patrick and an elder, Jim Cameron. During the discussion, Eddie (the dad) told Patrick that one incident does not make a pedophile. He appeared to blow if off, saying that he, too, had an inappropriate crush on 12 year old girl years before. However, this would prove to be deceptive since it would be discovered that Eddie knew of other incidents involving Patrick. It is also important to note how Eddie revealed that he had once had a “crush” on a young girl and considered this "normal."
Danielle said, “When we mentioned getting our child help…Eddie told Eric (Danielle’s husband) that all the child needed was Eric (the dad) and all he needed was the Bible to help her. And when Eddie closed the meeting in prayer…he prayed that God would use this to bring our families closer together. I was sickened.”
Within 24 hours, Danielle, unimpressed with the church’s response, called 911 and a police investigation ensued. In the meantime, On January 6, the two elders met with Patrick and Eddie. The elders said that they would step back and allow the police to complete their investigation. However, during this meeting, Patrick allegedly confessed to several more acts with Danielle’s daughter. The Schneiders and the police were not notified; a fact confirmed by elder Jim Cameron whose account I will share tomorrow. The Schneiders were told that the church had consulted other leaders and an attorney.
Over the next several weeks, the family receives cards, which I have seen, from Patrick's mother, Kathy Rojas, in which she tells the Scneiders to trust in Jesus. Frankly, I found these notes a bit creepy and inappropriate.
About two weeks later, a meeting was called of the “heads of households.” Apparently, the HOF churches often have meetings, which exclude the wives, since the husbands are the ones who are in charge of their families. During this meeting, which was corroborated by Jim Cameron, the church was notified that “inappropriate contact” was made between Patrick and a child in the congregation.
Here is what Danielle says in her own words. “The gathering was told that Patrick had inappropriate affections for a child in one of the families in the church and that the police had been called.” (At this point we requested not to be named as the victim family but within a short time called the elders and said we didn’t care who knew it was our family.) I am told that, from the way it was discussed, more than one person left the meeting thinking Patrick snuck a kiss from someone his own age behind a barn. (NOTE: Jim, Dave (another elder) as well as Eddie knew it was MUCH more than “just a kiss” at the time of this meeting.)
I have a copy of the agenda of the meeting in which it was stressed that church members were not to talk about this with one another since it would be considered gossip and therefor, a sin. The “Don’t Talk” rule was now in full force.
Danielle began to notice a change in attitude by members in the church. She heard rumors that people considered them bitter and believed that they needed to “forgive” Patrick.
Shortly thereafter they received a call from Patrick’s attorney that Patrick was now in counseling and had submitted a “not guilty” plea. However, the district attorney offered a plea agreement. If Patrick were to plead guilty and agree to provide a psychosexual history which would be a matter of public record, they would give him 10 days in jail, probation for 2 years and his name would be recorded for 10 years on a sexual offender registry. Patrick agreed.
Towards the end of April, Patrick showed up (or was allowed to attend) a men’s meeting at the church. The church's accommodation of Patrick was difficult for the Schneiders to accept, and they decided to leave the church.
The Situation Really Hits the Fan!
In June, Danielle received a phone call from the prosecutor. The findings of the psychosexual history were shocking. Not only had he molested her daughter on more than one occasion, he allegedly was involved in incest with his sisters and bestiality, he also allegedly admitted to molesting a 1/1/2 year old child. Apparently, Eddie had been aware of an incident when Patrick was around 15 years old, but Patrick reportedly had “repented” and was therefore forgiven. Please note this.
The prosecutor was disturbed by the history and felt it was important that Danielle be aware of how badly her daughter had been molested.
Sometime between July and August 2007, Greg Harris, from HOFCC headquarters (remember, he is the father of Joshua Harris of Sovereign Grace Ministries. SGM Survivors has documented some very poorly handled cases of alleged sexual abuse of children) attended a meeting at the church. During that meeting, Harris reportedly told a man, who revealed that his wife had seen the sexual/psych evaluation, that he was “not to believe his wife because women are easily deceived.” He stopped any discussion about the “gossip” of Patrick’s bad evaluation by stating “if you hadn’t seen it with your own eyes, you couldn’t speak about it.” Remember, the elders were aware that Patrick confessed to multiple contacts with her daughter! Yet, Harris wanted the discussion shut down.
Apparently, the reported history was so disturbing that Child Protective Services wanted access to the family to interview all of the children. After Patrick’s sentencing in August, Eddie Rojas, along with his wife and 10 of his children, fled before CPS could investigate the family. He reportedly is hiding out in Italy. There is a warrant for his arrest. (Editor’s note: Why would an innocent man flee the country?)
Patrick continued to live in the area but was asked by the elders to attend another Household of Faith church. Tomorrow, I will provide some information that may surprise the elders about Patrick’s “church” attendance.
The Schneider family felt rejected by their church. It appears that members of the church may have blamed them for the outcome of this situation. They were told that people “missed Patrick” and it appears some may have helped Patrick get a job.
It was a small community, and Danielle kept bumping into members of the church who were distant with her. The pain became unbearable, so the family decided to sell their house at a loss and moved back to Tacoma.
Danielle started her blog in March 2009, two years from the start of this story. She hoped that publicity might help to track down the fugitive Rojas family. She also felt it was important to get the story out about Patrick.
It Actually Gets Worse:
On March 2010, Patrick Rojas decided to sue Danielle reportedly because he was having a hard time getting business for his IT service company, Armorlite, and he blamed it on the blog. His goal is to shut down the blog. The court dismissed the lawsuit and he has now filed an appeal with a higher court, which has decided to take the case! There are reports Patrick is defending himself. Are these the actions of a repentant soul??
Well, that is enough for one day. Tomorrow, we will look at this situation through the eyes of the leaders. I think I will be able to make my case that men are easily deceived. (Isn't that in the Bible)?
5/29/12 Addendum: Danielle graciously corrected a few errors in my narrative.
- Eric is the one that found the note (not me)
- Along with the incident when Patrick was 15yrs old….it is also noted that Patrick was caught again at age 17 by Eddie and the same repent and move on scenario.
- We tried to sale our house without success and ended up just walking away from our home.
- June 20, 2010 is when we were served the lawsuit notice (It was our 20th wedding anniversary, no joke!) NOT March 2010
- Here are the exact words from the more under the pillow: "I know that I didn't just offend you, I realize that I hurt you very deeply by what I did. I took from you something I can't ever give back……I did it because I love you. I assumed you loved me….but I guess I thought wrong".
Lydia's Corner: Amos 4:1-6:14 Revelation 2:18-3:6 Psalm 130:1-8 Proverbs 29:21-22
I was reading on one site over a year ago that pedophiles were twice as likely to be a leader in ministry than be a teacher in school. It caused be to think and it came to the conclusions that the Torah has been thrown out of many churches as a guidance for such things. Sadly, It has been thrown of the courts for many years churches still rely on courts and civil justice to take of such matters. Banishment used to the rule of discipline for such things. Too harsh…here is also fraud done by this so-called elder. This is why if any church says it is an "elder led" church to let the buyer beware. God's church does is not "elder led" and a represented assembly of the congregation need to govern through such matters.
"Overseer" one who over sees.
Casey said: "I was reading on one site over a year ago that pedophiles were twice as likely to be a leader in ministry than to be a teacher in school." And why shouldn't they? Target-rich environment and Brothers in Christ who will defend you even as you diddle their kids. Win-Win situation for the pedo, Lose-Lose for everybody else. I'm surprised pedos are NOT flocking to such Fellowships of Churches (TM) after news like this. All they gotta do is recite the right proof texts and act the proper part (maybe a bit of study under a Calvinista) and they're in and safe.
Dee, thank you for posting this story and for your stand on this issue. For those of us who have been victims, it helps. In reading Danielle's story, I wish I could say I'm shocked. But I'm not. I've seen this happen too many times to be shocked. But I am angry. Julie Anne posted about the "elephant in the room' in churches – spiritual abuse. So true. If spiritual abuse is, as someone once said to me, the 'dark underbelly' of ministry, then pedophilia and sexual abuse are the dark underbelly of spiritual abuse. My opinion only, but I think the institution we call church is very sick.
By the way, I also wanted to mention, because I've heard it a couple of times recently….that the sexual abuse in the church 'continues the cycle of sexual abuse." I think you are saying that those who are abused become abusers. I know this is a common belief. However, studies I have read (and I'd have to dig to cite…) state that actually one 12.5% of victims of abuse actually go on to become abusers themselves…which means 87.5% of abusers are not simply doing what was done to them. I bring this up because as a victim, when I hear the saying, "well, hurting people hurt people" it feels a little like a slap in the face – because it is excusing the abusers (mostly erroneously) while ignoring the 87.5% of victims who do not become abusers, Okay – end rant.
HUG – I contend that that is exactly what is happening. Abusers protect other abusers, like atracts like….
" I have to tell you that after reading that article, I feel sick to my stomach. I don't think I'll get much sleep tonight. That is just too disturbing…"
I feel the same way Eagle. This is so heartbreaking on many levels–it is hard to know what to say about this.
The Pedophile's father and the Pedophile himself seem to have no remorse whatsoever…which is a scary thought in and of itself. Hopefully the fugitive father will be caught, and his son will not committ any more crimes…
To me…The church's reaction is the hardest thing to swallow. Those who commit crimes against the innocence like this need prayers and due justice to keep them from harming anyone else…I just don't get how they can go down the road of subtle support for Patrick and cold hard rejection of the victims family. The church should have come alongside the victims family with full love, support, and care…..(as a TRUE family would)….Not finger pointing, "walk on the other side" kind of mentality.
My church is quite unlike this church's setup, but evenso, I don't think I could just stand by inside this rather extreme church government and turn against someone hurting like this. I don't think I would sweep the issue under the rug hoping it would go away….it would haunt me too much!
How could the members of this church continue to, as Dee said, do business as usual when surely the rejection of this victims family would have to eat at them in light of the actions this man committed against this girl. Hope Danielle's family will find peace, healing, and closure in this storm…Will be praying.
Seriously, is any of this stuff really new?
A generation goes, and a generation comes,
but the earth remains forever.
The sun rises, and the sun goes down,
and hastens to the place where it rises.
The wind blows to the south
and goes around to the north;
around and around goes the wind,
and on its circuits the wind returns.
All streams run to the sea,
but the sea is not full;
to the place where the streams flow,
there they flow again.
All things are full of weariness;
a man cannot utter it;
the eye is not satisfied with seeing,
nor the ear filled with hearing.
What has been is what will be,
and what has been done is what will be done,
and there is nothing new under the sun.
(Ecclesiastes 1:4-9 ESV)
Jimmy:
You said:"Seriously, is any of this stuff really new?" Wow! I can just feel your sympathy for the victims!! You need to crawl back under your rock.
Jimmy –
I am unaware that one of the purposes of TWW is to present that which is "new". It would almost seem that you haven't been around here for very long.
Odd complaint.
If you have a point, why don't you just say it? It seems you are saying, "Oh, move along, nothing to see here. Pedophiles will be pedophiles, no use in getting upset over it. Sometime children get molested, but no big deal. Let's talk about something new."
I'm sure you can find other blogs with the new content you are looking for.
Folks,
Jimmy is an Excuser, one who finds some way to excuse the evil that pastors and other leaders do, much like the church in Germany excused the actions of Hitler in the late 1930s because he was the leader and obviously God had put him in charge (HA!)
An excuser has no compassion or sympathy for victims, and because of that, tends to increase the abuse by denying its significance and the pain it creates and has created.
There is no way to convince an excuser of the evil of his ways. So just ignore him and tell the story that needs to be told, pray for the victims, offer them sympathy, compassion and love.
Dee/Deb Jimmy is a serial violater of the Prime Directive or whatever the term is. Please implement.
An Attomey:
You said:"Jimmy is a serial violater of the Prime Directive or whatever the term is. Please implement.
I agree. His comments are inappropriate.
Jimmy,
No—This is nothing new. Human rebellion against God, and the harsh realities/consequences of sin have been around for a long, long time.
BUT, this by no means dictates that anyone should ignore these problems just because sin is a reality.
I am well aware that I will have no influence over this problem in this church….BUT, I can pray for the victims family….I can also pray for the pedophile and his family that they will be remorseful and repentant and do what is right in this situation.
I have hope in the fact that the victory has already been won—-and everything from Cancer to the stealing of a child's innocence will one day be wiped away forever from the face of the New Heaven/New Earth…but until that day, it is truly heartbreaking to see this play out—especially in the Church.
I should also add, that if something like this (God-forbid) were to happen in my church family…That I would NEVER stand by and give a cold shoulder to the victim's family—-or side with the guilty at the expense of the victim's family.
There are lessons to be learned in all of this.
Jeanette
If you look again at what I said, I listed a whole host of things that can get carried over including emotional pain. Studies have shown a variety of issues beyond some who become abusers. I think it is safe to say that there are many people who suffer with long term depression, PTSD, anxiety, etc. because of their abuse as children. This abuse has a life long impact and it deeply irritates me when churches say to "get over it." Victims need compassion and support as they work through such betrayal.
Jimmy – you're a heartless creep. Go away.
Dana
Jimmy dislikes any topic which deals with those who have been victimized by the church. But, he hangs around here and I hope that maybe, just maybe, we are getting under his skin.
mot and Attorney
I will be watching Jimmy closely. if he downplays any victim from this point forward, his comment will be deleted or edited.
Seeker
How do you know that you can have no influence over this problem in the church? Today, sitting in your church, is most likely a pedophile and also one who was harmed. You can make a difference by discussing how your church can minister to victims and more carefully identify theological mistakes that lead to pedophiles having a field day in our churches. Of course, it is not a fun job. Most peopel would rather stick their heads in the sand than confront the fact that our churches contain serious sinners who can do heinous things and that includes pastors and elders. Today i will write about this. Jim Cameron made some mistakes but he has an insight or two that everyone should hear.
Dee,
I was referring more to this particular local church body rather than the Church as a whole…..as in I can not help the situation that has come about in this particular church..
You are right though, we can help the problem as a whole, and the points you made are excellent.
I don't want to stick my head in the sand, and I have been chewing on how my church could prepare for a terrible situation such as this to help the victims, or even better, make sure we are doing everything we can to prevent something like this to take place.
Jimmy
I think you could try just a bit harder when it comes to this stuff. What is it within your soul that seems to want to blow off the pain and misery of others. No matter how hard you try, you cannot justify being cold to children who are molested by monsters.
As Christians, we have the Spirit of Christ who causes our hearts to have compassion on those who are let down by this world. Jesus modeled that compassion. It is said he had compassion for the throungs of people who followed Him. He talked about the day coming when every tear would be wiped from our eyes.
Maybe you could contemplate how you could show compassion to those caught in these situations. Quoting those verses Ecclesiastes is not the smartest move in this situation. As Ecc. also says “To everything there s a season.” This is a time to cry and to console.
"Seriously, is any of this stuff really new?" ….. asks Jimmy.
Well-congrats- you could not have missed the point any better.
Dee-thanks for this heartbreaking story. Every time I read one, it fuels the fire in me to stand up for the weak and powerless. They are never old stories to me.
Simple. The victim's family Rocked the Boat. This is Church; you NEVER Rock the Boat.
(And the molested kid was just a girl. It's not like the pedo was a FAG(TM) or anything like that…)
Just like the "Red Fanboys" who gushed about the glories of Stalin and the Moral Superiority of the USSR, denouncing and anathemaizing anyone who thought anything different. I encountered some leftovers of those in the Seventies and early Eighties.
Don't forget an excuser also plays the My Superior Intellect or My Moral Superiority card(s) off the bottom of the deck against all us stupid unwashed. At least every one I've run across has.
Don't you KNOW that Five Fast Praise-the-LOORDs or more hours studying SCRIPTURE or memorizing more Proof Texts or Tithing More fixes EVERYTHING? (And if it doesn't, you were never Really Saved/have a Secret Sin/are possessed by DEMONS/etc… In any case, It's All Your Fault (TM).)
quote: Harris reportedly told a man, who revealed that his wife had seen the sexual/psych evaluation, that he was “not to believe his wife because women are easily deceived.”
I used to attend Gregg Harris' church in Gresham, Oregon. This sounds exactly like what he would say. This kind of teaching about women is heavily emphasized there.
Please remember not to feed the trolls.
Women are easily deceived, huh?
Women have no voice in these patriarchal systems so it is the men who have been deceived.
And, men of these churches, you as a deceived fool is the very best portrait I can paint of you.
Think about it, contemplate the alternatives, the men *knew* the men didn't have the balls to protect their daughters, they knowingly protected their brothers because the women are there for the men donchaknow.
Someday, you will be in front of God on judgement day and the tape of these crimes will be replayed and you will not be able to hide or lie and even if you cling to the cross and are forgiven, you will look in the Father's eyes and *know* and I would rather suffer anything this earth throws at me than to endure that fate.
Sad, sad story – it appears that all of these women are to be distrusted and beat the children to keep them in line churches deal with the rape of the innocent children the exact same way – try and cover it up, sweep it under the rug. The men don't want to rock the boat with their status of being modern day plantation owners.
I am very sad for Danielle and her family but I am glad this is being exposed.
Seeker –
I know you have a heart for doing good so I will encourage you with some things you can do.
Find out what policies your church has and implements to keep children safe.
Does your church do background checks for ALL leaders, staff, and children's workers, including volunteers? (Children is 0-18 years).
What are your children and youth "policies?" Does your church have any?
What policies are in place in your church to prevent abuse? Regarding children and adults?
What is the procedure if someone reports abuse in your church?
Do people in your church know how to report possible abuse?
Every member in your church should know the answers to these questions. Don't assume someone is taking care if it . . . ask until you get answers, even if you don't like the answers you hear. If the answers fall short, then you be the one to initiate change. If all is covered, glory to God and thanks to all the people of God who are hard at work keeping others safe!
You can do much to help. The first step is don't assume. If you have never heard about policies or don't know the answers to the questions . . . then something is possibly already not happening that should be.
Soon to come (if not already) from Calvinista blogosphere:
7 reasons Danielle is to blame for this whole thing:
1: God can bring himself glory without your help. He’ll bring justice. Who are you to try to give glory to God?
2: The bible says not to go to law before unbelievers– you should have let the church handle this.
3: You’re persecuting this young man and ruining his future. How will he support his family if his business can’t get clients?
4: He probably didn’t do it, he probably didn’t mean to do it, he’s repented, and he probably won’t do it again, so just let it go.
5: Let a woman learn in silence…. I suffer not a woman….
6: What does your husband think about what you’re doing?
7: Who’s your current pastor? What’s his phone number?
There are a lot of models of policies and procedures for protecting children in the church. An example is having spaces with windows on the hallways; a minimum of two unrelated ADULTS always with children, including on restroom trips; rotating parental addition to the team in the room to provide an additional adult; background checks on all persons who work with children and no person w/o a check allowed near children. I know of one church that insists that all regular attenders and members get a background check.
The church must also have a written policy that says that any allegation of abuse or of suspected abuse must be reported to the appropriate civil authorities. Most mid-sized and larger communities have a child abuse investigator who is not police but is competent to do the interview appropriately for possible use in legal proceedings and who can perform or order an exam and collection of possible evidence, and then refer to the police for further action, and almost all emergency rooms have that capability.
Dee and Deb –
Do you have a page up somewhere that lists what safety policies and procedures should be in place at a church or parachurch organization? You could then link to that page when you do stories assiciated with abuse.
This story is especially sad and disturbing because a father new about his son but hid his son's issues instead of exposing them to the light. Patrick could have gotten help and others could have been watching him and helping him as well. What father let's their son go stay in a home with young girls or boys when he knows the son has sexual problems? This father was negligent on so many levels.
I pray for God's grace for Danielle's daughter and her family.
Oops, forgot number 8
8: it’s been yeeeeeeears since this happened. You’re just bitter.
Parting shot from Calvinista blogger:
Look at “blog links” on Danielle’s blog. I knew it! Discernment Divas are behind this whole ungodly, ungospel mess!
"Most mid-sized and larger communities have a child abuse investigator who is not police but is competent to do the interview appropriately for possible use in legal proceedings and who can perform or order an exam and collection of possible evidence, and then refer to the police for further action, and almost all emergency rooms have that capability."
Can you explain what this child abuse investigator that most mid-large sized congregations may have would look like? How is the person competent to interview and refer to police-do they make the decision to refer and we then abide by that? I find that very interesting. I would never agree to that if it were my child that had reported abuse to me.
Would this investigator be the first assistance people would encounter? Why not the police?
Not in the congregation. This is an agency that works with child abuse victims and those alleged to be victims, and not a part of the church.
Dave –
You forgot #8: Have you prayed about it? (That one always ruffles my feathers)
I'm so sorry this happened. Sorry but not surprised at all…sad to say.
And Dee/Deb, please make Jimmy go away 🙂
"Not in the congregation. This is an agency that works with child abuse victims and those alleged to be victims, and not a part of the church."
As long as the spirit and intent of such agencies is not that the authorities are the last to know. Verifying the allegation, advising of resources, and deciding viability are acceptable and parties should be able to assemble and interact within 2 hours. Authorities (police during non business hours) should be contacted simultaneously…in every case. Otherwise-to the ER my child would go- imnmediately. I still think I would do so- even if such an agency were available to me through (but not part of) my church.
Lindsay,
We’ll consolidate the forgotten number 8’s like this
8: All these yeeeeeeears, and I just realized, I forgot to pray! (slapping forehead) So THAT’S why I’ve been so bitter!
PS: I make Jimmy go away when I ask him for his opinion on the topic at hand. I think we all should follow this approach.
Kathleen
Thank you for letting me know that this "Women are easily deceived" in keeping with Gregg Harris' belief. I will talk more on this today.Frankly, with the male dominance in many churches today while the pedophile crisis raises its ugly head, it seems to me that the men are easily deceived as well.
Apostle Dave AA
You are a prophet. i hope to publish today’s post before dinner time in Raleigh where it is hot!
An Attorney/Bridget
I plan to wax eloquent on Monday about the inherent problems in churche that have difficulties in this area. If I write it carefully and add an addendum, I could make it a permanent resource. Any suggestions?
in Raleigh where it is hot!
It's hot EVERYWHERE.
Bridget
It is my opinion that something is seriously wrong (beyond Patrick) in that family. Why would an innocent man flee the country?
Jimmy,
The issue of women trying to domineer their husbands is as old as or older than pedophilia – in fact as old as the Fall, if one holds to CBMW's interpretation of Genesis. Certainly much older than Ecclesiastes. Why don't the Calvinistas and patriarchs stop talking about it then? There's nothing new under the sun, right?
DaveAA
Help, oh help! I cannot find my covering.
Lindsey
i am now on a 24 hour Jimmy watch.
Hester
Patriarchs talk so much because no one is listening.
This just makes me sick. And to think that Harris, who has young men that are seen as influential people in the Christian community, would just brush this off. I wonder if he would have allowed this in his own family.
Sitting in a parking lot having tears stream down my face once again because of abuse in the church. Pedophilia is only part of the story. In these sitiations, there is a complete lack of love exhibited by pastors who are supposed to shepherding the precious and vulnerable sheep. My heart literally aches for these victims who are completely downtrodden and have lost hope.
I am also ticked at the WIFE of the father and mother of the perpetrator. If I were her, I would have thrown my son to the authorities and gotten a divorce if the husband justified the abuse. That would be AFTER the castration…………………..
Julie Anne
I partly based my 8 reasons to blame the blogger on a particularly un “grace” full fellow you’ve been interacting with. Praying for your situation still, along with Danielle’s.
On lighter note “It’s hot everywhere” — current temp at Vostok Station is a balmy 81 below!
it's foggy here.
just a believer
Think about it. Couldshe be abused as well? This is a bizarre situation and there is a reason they all took off.
"Casey said: "I was reading on one site over a year ago that pedophiles were twice as likely to be a leader in ministry than to be a teacher in school."
I was told by a local police detective that pedophiles love churches. They have the aura of being a good person because they claim to be a Christian. People are much more likely to trust someone they meet at church. And they are easily given access to areas they might have to explain in other venues where getting to know children would be questioned. The other problem is that a pedophile knows that even if caught, the church will most likely just want him to leave and not have bad publicity that comes with it being charged as a crime. It is all about the reputation of the church and rarely about the victim.
When the pedophile is in a leadership ministry position can you imagine how much worse all this is for the victim?
"I am unaware that one of the purposes of TWW is to present that which is "new". It would almost seem that you haven't been around here for very long.
Odd complaint."
Very odd.
I do wonder if Jimmy would tell his own child who had been molested: This is nothing new. Just new to you.
Dee wrote “I can’t find my covering!”
May I suggest you get under the shepherding of Saint Sergius of George, ASAP.
I think it is safe to say that there are many people who suffer with long term depression, PTSD, anxiety, etc. because of their abuse as children. This abuse has a life long impact and it deeply irritates me when churches say to "get over it."
The very people these children were assured they could trust, violated them. so, who can they trust if they cannot trust "Christians"? If people think that does not bring long term serious implications they are fooling themselves.
It is a heinous selfish crime. Christians are NOT above the law. But many of these male dominated cults think they are.
How does a lowly ;preacher afford to move 10 kids to Italy? Just the logistics alone spell: Money. Where did he get it?
Our Church here in the Uk was 'persuaded' by those of us who work with children & young people professionally to sort out its Child Protection Policies & all sorts of stuff after our local YMCA had a terrible case where a very popular Youth Worker was eventually jailed for the rape & other serious abuse of young men in his youth groups. They had tried to tell their parents, but not been believed, as he was so popular with the young people. Our policies now include a yearly review for all those involved with children & young people which asks direct questions as to whether they have any worries about their own thoughts & behaviour, or that of others, around children. Some people are offended by this.
We also have has at least 2 men on the Sex Offenders Register who were regular attenders. One now has children of his own, is at another church & we just wonder how they are dealing with the issue of him as a parent 'helping out' with creche, or going along to pick up his kids & so on. It makes me really uncomfortable. I want to be all loving & forgiving but I have no idea if his wife knows about his conviction, or if his new church does. My husband was in a Bible study group with him, & occasionally they meet up for a drink, but I dread the day we're invited to dinner or are expected to have them because I couldn't in all good conscience do it…This is partly because I feel that total change is unlikely in an adult offender, I work with abused children & would find this disturbing, & because I would never ever want him to say to someone 'oh but some of my friends work for Children's Services' or whatever, giving him a (potentially) false veneer of trustworthiness. Sex offenders are undoubtedly amongst the most cunning & manipulative people alive.
What do others think? Am I wrong in this? This story gives me the fear about how other 'christians' think these kind of offences should be dealt with…this story is a clear example of church culture enabling an offender, & I would put money on it that there is inter-generational abuse as a pattern in this family.
When I've worked with those who've been abused, you see that their old, original life died at the point of abuse, & only sometimes does something worth having rise from those ashes. Heartbreaking.
OT: Dee, it's currently 103 in Atlanta. The thermometer in my car went up to 108 at one point.
Tina
I think you are saying that those who are abused become abusers. I know this is a common belief. However, studies I have read (and I'd have to dig to cite…) state that actually one 12.5% of victims of abuse actually go on to become abusers themselves…which means 87.5% of abusers are not simply doing what was done to them. I bring this up because as a victim, when I hear the saying, "well, hurting people hurt people" it feels a little like a slap in the face – because it is excusing the abusers (mostly erroneously) while ignoring the 87.5% of victims who do not become abusers
Jeanette,
Regarding what you say here, abuse victim advocate and former counselor of men who abuse, Lundy Bancroft, says the following in his book Why Does He Do That? Inside The Minds of Angry and Controlling Men, on page 25:
Multiple research studies have examined the question of whether men who abuse women tend to be survivors of childhood abuse, and the link has turned out to be weak; other predictors of which men are likely to abuse women have proven far more reliable, as we will see. Notably, men who are violent toward other men are often victims of child abuse– but the connection is much less clear for men who assault women. The one exception is that those abusers who are brutally physically violent or terrifying toward women often do have histories of having been abused as children. In other words, a bad childhood doesn't cause a man to become an abuser, but it can contribute to making a man who is abusive especially dangerous. Emphasis his.
And on page 26:
The National District Attorney's Association Bulletin reported a revealing study that was conducted on another group of destructive men: child sexual abusers. The researcher asked each man whether he himself had been sexually victimized as a child. A hefty 67 percent of the subjects said yes. However, the researcher then informed the men the he was going to hook them up to a lie-detector test and ask them the same questions again. Affirmative answers suddenly dropped to only 29 percent. In other words, abusers of all varieties tend to realize the mileage they can get out of saying, "I'm abusive because the same thing was done to me."
Dee @ 12:55 –
My thought, as I wrote to Seeker, is to let people know what they should be asking in their church home, or future church home, if they want to know how children are being protected. If people don't get answers or are put off by the leaders lack of response, then they have an opportunity to help things change, or choose not to be a part of a congregation that is not thinking about these important issues. Churches are a perfect place for pedophiles to to have free reign because churches tend to "think the best" of everyone and people are easily fooled by outward appearances.
I am very suspicious of Patrick's father as well. Why would he move his entire family and hide out while Patrick stays and faces the consequences. That makes no sense to me at all. Why didn't he care for those around his son when he knew what his son was capable of? He is running for a reason.
Beakerj – If I knew someone had a history of sexually abusing children, I wouldn't hesitate at all to decline invitations to dinner with them, whether they are Christian or not. Frankly, I'm surprised that the person you mention going to another church is allowed to be around children. If that church is not aware that he is a registered sex offender, I wouldn't hesitate informing the church either. While I don't personally know this man or his situation, I do know that a church setting is a great place for a sex offender to be, especially if they are new to the church.
bridget
CPS is concerned about Eddie as well. There is a reason that this a elony warrant for his arrest.
Tina/Eagle
108 on my deck!
Anon1
You are beginning to sound like me! I do not know the answer to your qeustion.
Apostle dave
Why are you not qualified?
Reading this, I am reminded of C S Lewis's words in Mere Christianity: if you are a Christian and you murder someone, the most Christian thing you can do is to give yourself up and be hanged.
I think what he was saying is that genuine repentance is shown by a willingness in serious crimes like this to take the consequences. By implication one would imagine this would also mean one's Christian family being willing to hand the offender over to the law.
Incidentally, last summer after the riots a mother made headlines in the UK after she handed in her daughter to the police for rioting. I think that took courage, but it certainly looks better than what appears to be the family of the offender trying to sweep the matter under the carpet.
One of the causes of anger before the Reformation in Europe was that clerics couldn't be tried by ordinary law courts, only by ecclesiastical courts. Is this a similar sort of thing?
Dee-
I absolutely, 100% agree with this. I know my comment was off the main point, but it just triggered something as I have so often heard it used as an excuse (abusers abuse because they were abused). As a survivor – of molestaion, emotional abuse, etc., etc., I know well the lifelong damaging affects of child sexual abuse. I live it every day.
I apologize if I came accross in my earlier comment harshly. It was not meant as a criticism to you or this blog – I respect you and what you do greatly. I only meant to provide information.
I just don't know what to say in response. I did hear that, at the Covenant LIfe member's meeting last night, the pastors apologized for several sins they had committed, and I wondered if one of them was harboring sexual abusers and not protecting or helping the abused. I was sickened last year when I realized that a friend I used to know had married a pedophile, apparently knowing his history, and going on to have daughters with him. I just couldn't bring myself to accept a facebook request from her. Then I second guessed myself, wondering if I was being loving. Where is the remedy for all of this?
Jeanette
There is no need to apologzie to me. I wanted to make sure that you knew I wanted to address the panoply of pain that is suffered by folks like yourself who have been abused. I have great compassion for you and am so sad for your experience. I appreciate any and all information that you can share with us for nobody understands the pain of a victim as a victim herself. I am grateful for your willingness to share your experience with us.
Former CLCer
I will be doing an analysis with suggestions on Monday. Your friend may be an enabler of the pedophile. It oculd be that she was raised to be an enabler by her parents. I bet yoy anything there is history. There are some very sick relationships out there which are encouraged by the church which continues to believe that Jesus regularly and miraculously heals pedophiles amd other seriously sick individuals. Many times he does not and the church should be in the business of teaching people how to deal with their flaws and compulsions in a healthy manner.
And, unfortunately, some pastors are also pedophiles.
“Is SGM, Calling The Kettle Black, Among Other Things With Patterns Of Ignoring Sexual Abuse Of Children?
“C.J. was the object of an enormous amount of gossip and slander during this past year, and that has damaged his reputation, undermined his ability to lead, and created an atmosphere of suspicion in some quarters of our family of churches.” -John Loftness, On behalf of the Sovereign Grace Ministries Board.
Hmmm…
Truth?
“CJ was the object of factual testimony of threatening blackmail to his fellow co-founder, Larry Tomzak—subjecting the family to years of oppression. All the while allowing SGM churches to believe a LIE about a fellow Christian man. Mahaney was content with his congregants throughout SGMland to believe this LIE– until the blogs and investigations exposed the LIES.”
“The Saints attempted to request of CJ to practice what he has preached for 25 years- accountability and submission to the local church. CJ refused accountability of his home church pastors and Sr Pastor, Joshua Harris of Covenant Life in Gaithersburg, fled to Capitol Hill Baptist and then re-established himself at Solid Rock Church in Maryland— turning his back on congregants who loyally and financially supported him and SGM endeavors the past 25 years. Mahaneys son-in-laws followed his lead, resigning from their positions at Covenant Life and Fairfax.”
“The Saints submitted factual testimonies of patterns of spiritual abuse in the SGM ‘family of churches’. Including the patterns of ignoring sexual abuse of children; emotional, spiritual and physical abuse of women; manipulation and control of congregants— all due to the controling polity and culture of SGM. At the helm of the polity and culture– CJ Mahaney”.
” (SGM) You have drawn a line in the sand. You dismiss churches with concerns for CJ when you say gossip and slander “created an atmosphere of suspicion in some quarters of our family of churches.” THAT IS SO BOGUS. What has been created is an atmosphere of Godly DISCERNMENT pertaining to CJ’s long-standing PATTERNS of serious sin against many people. It is just like you as SGM to silence pastors and churches by labeling them “suspicious” when all they are doing is asking hard questions, (which you and CJ won’t answer), requiring GENUINE accountability and calling for personal and corporate reform. Once again you play the gossip and slander card in order to disparage critics and PREVENT THEM FROM KNOWING THE TRUTH. You love to censure people and control their lives while you protect the guilty.” – Brent Detwiler
http://www.brentdetwiler.com/brentdetwilercom/2012/6/28/a-divided-board-makes-cj-mahaney-long-term-president.html
“None of the above is gossip or slander. Facts are facts. Truth is truth.” -Waters, SGMSuvivors.
http://sgmrefuge.com/2012/06/28/board-update-defining-sovereign-grace-leadership-positioning-c-j-mahaney-as-president/#comment-73129
Sopwith –
SGM is, unfortunately, carrying on with "business as usual." They have learned very little this past year. I can't understand how many of the pastors want to follow after CJ. It appears they have very little discernment and even less gumption.
Sopy
One day they will stand before God. Do they understand that?
DB – I have to wonder if "Depart from me; I never knew you" is part of what they are going to hear… (This from me, a non-believer in eternal conscious torment and/or hell as it's generally thought of by Westerners).
“Wagg’in da Dog? “ Has SGM bought a proverbial AoR vowel for some $400k?
Dee,
Will send certificate of officially covered sheep-hood. At Vostok Ice Station, the temperature has now risen to a blistering 79 below zero. Feels like -114 F with the wind chill. Maybe a good location to send some folks to cool off.
Apostle Dave
Thank you for the laugh. A major road buckled in Raleigh today due to the heat and the traffic backedu p for miles. We could use a little ice storm right now.
@ Annon 4:55 comment:And on page 26:
The National District Attorney's Association Bulletin reported a revealing study that was conducted on another group of destructive men: child sexual abusers. The researcher asked each man whether he himself had been sexually victimized as a child. A hefty 67 percent of the subjects said yes. However, the researcher then informed the men the he was going to hook them up to a lie-detector test and ask them the same questions again. Affirmative answers suddenly dropped to only 29 percent. In other words, abusers of all varieties tend to realize the mileage they can get out of saying, "I'm abusive because the same thing was done to me."
Patrick indicated in his evaluation that he WAS NOT ABUSED. Pedophilia is about control.
and
@ Koyla
"Reading this, I am reminded of C S Lewis's words in Mere Christianity: if you are a Christian and you murder someone, the most Christian thing you can do is to give yourself up and be hanged.
I think what he was saying is that genuine repentance is shown by a willingness in serious crimes like this to take the consequences. By implication one would imagine this would also mean one's Christian family being willing to hand the offender over to the law."
I totally and completely agree with you. That was one of our confussions early on in all of this. Being "accountable" and "taking responsibility" for your own actions was preached regularly at PHFCC by Eddie Rojas….when learned Patrick had a lawyer and that decision was supported by his father, we knew something was wrong. We knew he had done something, he admitted to as much, so why did he need a lawyer? Why wouldn't he talk with the sheriff investigating the case? It was the beginning of the crazy-making!
and
@ Beakerj
"Our policies now include a yearly review for all those involved with children & young people which asks direct questions as to whether they have any worries about their own thoughts & behaviour, or that of others, around children. Some people are offended by this."
These are great to have in place at your church. It really should be the standard!
"We also have has at least 2 men on the Sex Offenders Register who were regular attenders. One now has children of his own, is at another church & we just wonder how they are dealing with the issue of him as a parent 'helping out' with creche, or going along to pick up his kids & so on. It makes me really uncomfortable. I want to be all loving & forgiving but I have no idea if his wife knows about his conviction, or if his new church does. My husband was in a Bible study group with him, & occasionally they meet up for a drink, but I dread the day we're invited to dinner or are expected to have them because I couldn't in all good conscience do it…This is partly because I feel that total change is unlikely in an adult offender, I work with abused children & would find this disturbing, & because I would never ever want him to say to someone 'oh but some of my friends work for Children's Services' or whatever, giving him a (potentially) false veneer of trustworthiness. Sex offenders are undoubtedly amongst the most cunning & manipulative people alive"
You are correct in your "feelings" that sexual predators don't change! Of course God is a God of miracles and one could be changed BUT it would be a true miricle, would you want to test your child (figurally speaking) out on sed offender? WHY oh why do people continually give these monsters access to children? If you know of a sex offender I would encourage you to make it your buisness to contact the church and wife and share that public information!
and
@ Dave AA
"Soon to come (if not already) from Calvinista blogosphere:
7 reasons Danielle is to blame for this whole thing:
1: God can bring himself glory without your help. He’ll bring justice. Who are you to try to give glory to God?
2: The bible says not to go to law before unbelievers– you should have let the church handle this.
3: You’re persecuting this young man and ruining his future. How will he support his family if his business can’t get clients?
4: He probably didn’t do it, he probably didn’t mean to do it, he’s repented, and he probably won’t do it again, so just let it go.
5: Let a woman learn in silence…. I suffer not a woman….
6: What does your husband think about what you’re doing?
7: Who’s your current pastor? What’s his phone number?"
Very clever! I kid you not …I heard each of these numerous times! Some leave comments like these on my blog. People also have said, "I need to drop the blog and take care of my husband and all my children." And of course they had a scripture to quote to drive in their point. Made me crazy, scripture started to leave a bad taste in my mouth, it's tough to reel back from something like this….
Bridget,
Thanks for your advice earlier today….this helps a lot.
Background checks are definitely a part of all hiring process for our staff (which isn't many because we are a smaller church plant close to ten years old)…
We have standard procedures for youth/children events….multiple adults with kids/youth at all times along with youth/children ministers…no child alone with adults, etc..
I am going to check and see if they have a policy to react to something like this if it above scenario were to take place—-
Considering our small size and church structure, I don't see us having a "closed" situation like the one above…but nonetheles, a proper response not only to the perp in question within the church and the victim needs to be in writing somewhere in case this ever happens.
The main thing I think is to never get complacent and assume…to always be on guard and watch out for suspicious circumstnces/behavior..and defend the victim at all costs if the unlikely event were to happen…
Dee –
Thank you.
Patrick indicated in his evaluation that he WAS NOT ABUSED. Pedophilia is about control.
Yes. That is exactly Bancroft's point. Abuse (all abuse) is about control and the abuser may or may not have been abused himself. If he was abused that may make him worse and more destructive but is not the root cause. He may or may not try to use the excuse of former abuse to gain sympathy. But he is an abuser because he choses to be and the motive is control.
Also, your 7 reasons the victim is to blame are rampant in the church in dealing with all sorts of abuse as well. It is very dangerous.
anonymous
We have received some information that might lead us to believe that Patrick wad the victim of some ort of abuse.
Danielle,
What people are commenting about you and your situation on your blog is NOT Christianity. I think that is hard to admit sometimes because this thinking is all around us in terms of "Christianity". Ironically, the world is not fooled but many "Christians" are. What they are involved in is a form of churchianity that has nothing to do with the Body of Christ.
It is ironic but I was conversing with an unbelieving friend who is searching. His big problem are "Christians" and how hypocritical they are as he has seen his share of molestations, etc in the CofE as a kid while receiving religious instruction at school.
I love speaking with him about God (Trinity) because he has been out of the church environment for 20 years. I told him to forget church, denominations, etc and to focus on Christ. A good place to start are the Gospels. What did Christ say, who was He angry with (religious leaders!) who did He hang out with, what did He do….etc. ONce we have really gone down that road and spent a lot of time there, these wolves, charlatans, hirlings look so fake. Even most churches looks fake. We cannot understand Paul or anyone else until we really know Christ.
Not only are they imposters who write such things to you but I literally quake in my shoes for them. Their cruelty cannot be attributed to Christ….but they do attribute it to him! They are blind.
Did you ever think there would come a time when you could not trust a professing "Christian"? We are in those times now strictly from a quantity point of view. It has always been there but today it seems there are very few with the indwelling love and justice that would come from the Holy Spirit.
"I am very suspicious of Patrick's father as well."
Agree.
Who do you think coached Patrick to write that letter to Danelle's daughter? (speculation on my part.)
Self-preservation is a powerful manipulator of preditors, even at the sacrifice/control of your own son.
Digging deeper, what about going to the Federal/State Child Abuse Registry? Is Eddie Rojas listed, his father perhaps/too?
Moving a family of twelve is not what a stable man/woman would do. Unless he/she is used to it. Hmmm.
My thoughts as I read the story and comments.
Danielle – Our stories share a lot of similarities: sexual abuse, spiritual abuse, leaders who failed to protect the sheep. Some of my recent posts discuss this topic of Blaming the Messenger (you and I are messengers) and so we are blogging soul sistahs (who both happen to live in the PNW) 🙂
Some people seem to be fixated on the messenger, how we present the story, what our personal lives are like, what permission we obtained from our husbands/pastor, the condition of our families, all sorts of crazy ideas. The one common factor I have noticed in all of those responses is there is no amount of love or concern expressed for the victim. If there is no love expressed for you or the victim, let it go. Just let it go. They are not in the frame of mind to understand, but only want to preach to you. Did God abandon that lost sheep? No!
@Julie Anne,
Picture finding you on this blog the samed day I discovered it. I am very new to blogging, but have been looking for all the Spiritual Abuse blogs that I can find after Fred Butler wants do downplay it all and claims he visited a lot of such blogs. You know his feelings! But he didn't mention which blogs he was using for reference when he made his comments on his blog. — still talkin' about sheep Julie Anne — lol —
Danielle,
So sorry for what you had to go through. But it is good to let the world know the truth, especially when a church involved tries to shut people up and sweep the dirt under the rug. Not all churches are that way. One that my mother and I attended back when she was living had a a pastor who molested a child. They handled it properly. It was reported to the police etc. But they also showed grace. They paid for professional councilling. (not church related) I applaud them for doing the right thing and not trying to hide the truth. Of course that pastor is no longer their pastor, and may never be a pastor in any church. I lost track of what ever happend to him. I suspect he spent some time in prison. We live in a small town and the news may have only been in our local newspaper at the time of the incident.
Thanks for your thoughts, Dee. It's interesting that, though I've been gone from CLC for so many years, there is still some hurt, unresolved questions, etc. at times. I also went through the demise of a church last year due to a narcissistic pastor that brought back some of the feelings from CLC. Thanks for your blog and the healing it can bring, as well as insight. Some Sundays I feel I want to stay in bed with books that help me understand these issues instead of go to church!
Another thought regarding the Harris family. I know several folks in CLC, and I have been gaining respect for Josh and the way he's handled this crisis. There IS the possibility of insight and change.
Former CLCer
As a former member of SGM, you certainly have soem insight into difficult ministries. I don’t balme you for watning to stay in bed some Sundays. I have a favor to ask of you. Could you find out if Joshua Harris or any other SGM leader preaches that women are gullible and easily deceived? This theological nonsense is central to my argument for how to deal with a pedophile in one’s midst. I am now developing my own doctrine that men are just as easily deceived and because they have claimed that women cannot lead, they bear the brunt of the unrespoved pedophile issues in the churches.
Very sad.
This situation had lots of social hallmarks of weirdness.
I am glad that the police were called.
It is a sad tension that in dealing with Patrick and coming up with a plead deal that the cops and DA are limited to Patrick's confession. It appears information came out later that might have argued for a different plea deal.
Using "code", instead of straight talk, is a problem in situations like this. The victim and her family and the perp his family may often want that, but it can be a disservice to everyone else.
Our church would have handled things very differently in many respects. How to handle Patrick, a 22 year old who has confessed and accepted a plea deal, is a very tough question. I am sure that church leaders want to cordon him away from teens and children. But I also understand the desire to want to help. Maybe it would be best to let him go to church somewhere else, but then you don't want to get in the situation of sending a problem somewhere else.
Either way, this shows why reporting to the police and establishing a public record are essential.
Doesn't solve all the problems, for sure. But at least impartial professionals are involved, criminal prosecution is involved, and a public record is made.
Look forward to the next post.
Dee-
This is one of the staple teachings of my former pastor.cult leader. He said it often. Women are more easily deceived and must be under a man's covering (husband, pastor) or they WILL be deceived. That was one of his parting shots the day I resigned – a tactic to try and scare me into staying. He flat out said if I wasn't under the covering, I WOULD be deceived. Sigh.
The whole "covering" stupidity, and that is what it is, is not based on any reasonable understanding of the Bible and the way Jesus interacted with women. It is a heresy, plain and simple. Any pastor who preaches it should be defrocked.
Dee said : "now developing my own doctrine that men are just as easily deceived"
I was just sitting here contemplating how Eve was deceived by SATAN himself. The crafty devil was at the peak of his effectiveness. After this, people knew to look out for his deception. And the stakes were very high in the garden – the very truth of what God had said (to Adam, right?) The knowledge of good and evil. The big stuff!
I am thinking that perhaps some men are MORE easily deceived. Deceived by their own status and power and authority and their own rightness in things godly. Deceived by the excusers who sit in leadership conclaves and nod at fellow sages who wear no clothes.
Eve was deceived by the master deceiver. What is their excuse? They cannot say "no" to mere mortals?
haether
You get thought of the day!
Beakerj, I was under the impression that legally in the Uk we have to have full disclosures to work with kids? When I've volunteered to work with children at church or anywhere else, I've always legally had to have a background check done. Or is that just a Scottish thing?
Jeanette,
“Women are more easily deceived and must be under a man’s covering” may even be a GOAL of some who call themselves pastor. They’d like more women to be deceived by THEM and be under “pastor’s” covers. At least if a rumor I heard from a woman is correct. 🙂
I knew of a “prophet” a few years back who took this to the next level and, after deceiving the pastor into being under his covering, got the pastor’s wife under his covers. 🙁
It's funny in a sick sort of way. My former pastor, when he would preach about women being easily deceived, would say:
This was said to bolster the male authority position. I don't think he sees to this day how preaching that Adam was not deceived does not make Adam look better than Eve….
Dave-
You have hit the nail on the head…..
Eve was deceived by Satan and Adam was deceived by Eve? So Adam was allegedly deceived by the more gullible Eve?
I am amazed at the absolute flim-flam put out by some people purporting to be preachers and pastors. In the above scenario, Eve should be considered the less gullible, since it took the master deceiver to take her down and it was merely (ha) a woman who took down Adam. Of course, that is the excuse many men use when caught with their pants down — "she came onto me and I was helpless to resist". If that were really the case, we should be having women present the gospel, they would be so much more effective!!!!
Sophie/BeakerJ
We are under a false sense of security when we do background checks. Do not misread me. It does prevent convicted pedophiles from access to church schools, etc. However, the majority of pedophiles are undiscovered and have never been convicted. Byt the time they are caught, they have alredy molested an unbelievable number-80-140-kids. That is the problem that faces all of us. And these pedophiles target churches because we are so nice and trusting. “Isn’t it nice that Mr. Fred loves to spend time with our kids.”
We must be vigilant and act swiftly and Christianly when an incident occurs. For all those reading this, here is a “prophecy.” At some point, you will see this played out in a church that you attend. Today I am going to suggest a template for respoknse based on my own observations, up close and personal.
Dave
Good comment at 11:55. I am going to take on this topic this week at some point. We must all, men and women, remeber that Satan is a the Deceiver and that none of us are immune from deception. The greatest deception is the one in which you think that testosterone immunizes you from deception.
Many groups, churches, and organizations will SAY that a person has to submit to a background check, yet they do not put in the time to actually DO it. It costs $$$ and sometimes the "threat" of being told you are being submitted for a background check is thought to keep the criminals away from applying in the first place.
Here in NC, teachers have to be subject to background checks, but not necessarily all personnel who work on school grounds. There was a big stink lately when a school janitor was found to be a registered sex offender and NOBODY caught it in the hiring process or for a few years after his employment.
I don't trust "background" checks. Ever.
I understand that it won't protect kids from all peadophiles, and the numbers of victims you quote there, Dee, are tragic. It's incredible to think that these dark-hearted people can deceive so well. It just seems like madness to me, though, that in some places it's not a legal requirement for public organisations to run criminal checks on youth workers. It's a simple way to root out at least some of them.
BREAKING NEWS 6/14/2012
The largest jury verdict for a single victim in a religious child abuse case in the country…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/06/16/calif-jury-awards-28m-in-_n_1602997.html
Dee's numbers are true for those who molest more than one, who generally are predators. But there are many who molest one and then live in terror of that fact and never molest again. Those are less often caught and tend to confess if confronted, because they are terrified of themselves and afraid that whatever happened might happen again, so they avoid circumstances that might lead to a problem. It is similar to the case of men with respect to straying from their marriage vows: a large number never stray, some stray once and never again, and some are predators.
Hey Sophie, yes we do!
I currently have 4 enhanced Criminal Records Bureau checks because of my job.
I think the difficulty in the case of a sex offender who now has kids is that 99.99% of the church population would not know about the conviction, & so will allow them to pick their kids up from creche, make friends with other parents, have kids over with their parents…& so on. That's the bit that is very unclear…what about a Dads & Lads canoe trip for example, the parents aren't CRB checked for this, & unless someone tells, or unless the Elders who know are being very vigilant, then there are risks…
TedS
i believe that more churches should be sued and big judgments whould be imposed. That may be the only way to get some of these “leaders” t sit up and take noticed. Many seem t care a whole bunch about money.
To Jimmy, I'd just like to say, it was NEW when it happened to me.
Dee,
I"m sorry, I haven't had a chance to connect with any reliable CLC sources to find out the answer to your question about Josh Harris. I'm still trying, though.
I am so sad for what happened to Danielle's daughter (and the what happened to her whole family), though I also shudder to think of what life must have been like for Patrick's sisters. It sounds like a very sick family, and I can't help but wonder if some of this could have been prevented if the father (pastor) had taken the early incidents seriously. I also wonder about the father himself, if he was molesting….