Don’t tell me you are a Christian; let me guess. Hillbilly here
The Wartburg Watch is back!
The format will resemble our old format shortly. Also, if you wish to comment, you must enter an email address but an email address can be like a pseudonym, if you get our drift. This, too, will change shortly. You might see some words with odd symbols. This, too, will be fixed.
But we can comment and dialogue. This is awesome! There are far too many blogs out there that pontificate and hide behind a “no comment” policy or only allow “nice comments that worship the perspicuity of the blogger.” That, to the two of us, is boring and self-serving. We want our thoughts exposed to the marketplace of idea. We need to refine our thinking and that is what happens when all of you engage us.You know, we might even be wrong.
This blog allows many sorts of comments. We are open to serious and severe criticism. As such, we allow for difficult comments at times. This blog allows people from all sorts of faith or non-faith perspectives to comment. Sometimes we must decide whether or not to allow for a comment to run. We occasionally allow more latitude to those outside the faith. It is our hope that those who disparage our faith might continue to read. When they read, perhaps they might see a glimmer of truth or hope.
If you have questions about our decisions, please feel free to email us. Several of our readers have done so and we are grateful even if we might disagree. In fact, we have changed several comments, with the understanding of the author, due to such emails.
Well, nuff said. We are itching to write and here we go.
Recently, Al Mohler, wrote an editorial “Is the Internet the Enemy of the Faith?” for the Washington Post here
His answer to his proposed questions is:
“The Internet is not the enemy of faith. It is, however, one of the most significant technological and social developments in human history. To most younger people, a church without a Web address simply does not exist. As a Christian leader, I invest a great deal of my time and energy on the Internet, producing content, delivering a message, engaging in discussion, and observing the cultural conversation.”
His low perspective of community on the Internet
“Still, there are huge concerns. The dark side of the Internet has facilitated the retreat of some people into a virtual world, leaving the real world behind. Some even participate in so-called “digital churches,” but Christians need the fellowship and accountability that can only be found in the local church. Christians can learn much from on-line preachers, but we need to hear sermons preached by flesh-and-blood preachers in the real-time experience of Christian worship.”
My neighbor’s lovely front porch
I promise that I have not gone soft, so hang in there with me. I think this porch will serve as illustration of Mohler’s idyllic view of church. I have a neighbor who has a beautiful front porch and front yard. The front door is painted on a regular basis and the colors vary from season to season. Right now, it is a beautiful spring green. There are comfortable rocking chairs with cozy pillows and throws to match the green on the door. There are often adorable tea tables with lovely decorations on them. The watering can and flowers in pots impeccably match the door. There are impossibly cute birdhouses and strategically placed seating throughout the front yard. The bushes and flowers are gorgeous. All of this combines to cast the image of Norman Rockwell meets Thomas Kincaid. It should be on the cover of Country Living. I wish I had such good taste. (Does black go with brown?)
However, these very nice neighbors never sit on their front porch. They are busy, just like the rest of us. So their porch is really a poignant symbol for a different time and place in which neighbors actually drank lemonade on porches, inviting people to “sit a spell” and knew each other well. It is a wish; not a reality. Al Mohler’s view of himself, as well as the church, appears to this “discernment diva” to be a Thomas Kincaid fabrication of reality. Warm glowing lights from windows, everyone merrily serving Jesus and loving one another…
Al Mohler “engages in discussion?”
He said in the above post, “As a Christian leader, I invest a great deal of my time and energy on the Internet, producing content, delivering a message, engaging in discussion…”
Al Mohler may engage “leaders” and seminary students in discussion but he does not appear to encourage the dialogue for the rest of the church. On his website, his “hearing” is limited to emails and twitter. “I am always glad to hear from readers. Write me at mail@albertmohler.com.” A reader can “email” him with his/her thoughts but cannot comment on his blog. There is no engagement with his readers online. I doubt that he spends a whole lot of time emailing as well.
In fact, many of the “Christian leaders” with whom he associates do not allow comments or do not allow “disagreeable” comments on their blogs. The Pyromaniacs made a big deal about allowing comments on the SGM debacle. However, one will find there are few comments on that post. Why? Well, mosey on over to SGM Survivors to read comments that were not allowed on that blog, including first-hand comments by those who said they were wounded by the SGM “ministry.” Yucky and uncomfortable comments that may challenge one’s dedication to the ministry of a friend are not allowed.
Could this be the fatal flaw that prevents Mohler from seeing beyond the front porch of the church? This may be the reason that he has overlooked (or will not acknowledge) why the Internet in increasingly a place for deep and life-changing dialogue.
“As a Christian leader”
Yes, yes, we get that he is an important leader. We understand that he is cool, writing for the Washington Post and all. Why does he feel he needs to say that he is a leader? In dialoguing with many readers on our blog, I have come to see that, in fact, a hierarchy exists in today’s churches. There is the pastor who often functions as a figurehead. He is held up for admiration and is often protected from the daily pain and sorrows that is found in some of these churches.
So, the “leader” sets the tone. His church has:
-Perfect doctrine
-Missions
-Small groups
-Discipline
-Money
-Well dressed people who smile a lot
-Covenants
-Famous preacher
But, what about the pain? How is the ideology lived out in day to day life? Who tells him the truth? Seriously.
Mohler believes the local church is the bastion of the “real world” and that truthful fellowship is lived out there.
He said “ (It has)facilitated the retreat of some people into a virtual world, leaving the real world behind. Some even participate in so-called “digital churches,” but Christians need the fellowship and accountability that can only be found in the local church. Christians can learn much from on-line preachers, but we need to hear sermons preached by flesh-and-blood preachers in the real-time experience of Christian worship.”
This is where our experience at TWW diverges from the perspective that Mohler offers. It is important to understand that Mohler’s seminary (SBTS) is a hotbed for the Neo-Calvinist movement, which is pumping out authoritarian based pastors who have been schooled in the fine art of patriarchy and the Eternal Subordination of the Son (which teaches that women will be submissive to men in eternity). Some of these brash, young pastors appear to have turned churches upside down, imposing harsh discipline and promoting devotion to pastorcentric theology.
One only needs to spend some time reading this blog, along with many other survivors blogs, to understand that people are:
-Running from harshness,
-Running from pastors who overreach and punish members for asking questions
-Running from churches in which they are told to shut up, get with the program and give up the bucks so that the pastor can attend and speak at the umpteenth conference
-Running from being judged unimportant while the NeoCalvinists spend a lot of of time patting each other’s backs and touting each others’ books.
-Running from being told that they do not have the doctrinal chops to understand the complexities of “gospel” faith.
Mohler claims that those who run are “Leaving the real world behind”
In fact, the ones who are leaving the real world behind are those pastors and bloggers who hide from the ideas and critiques of the little guy. They are the ones who say people are sinning when they ask questions such as “Why is my pastor on the road more than he is in church?” They are accused of having a “questioning spirit” which is Calvinista lingo to shut up, fork over the money, and do what I say because I know better than you.
In fact, our experience over the past 3 years negates his assertion that people retreat into the blogosphere and leave reality. It is in the safety of the blogosphere that they can explore their questions, confess their pain, and deal with their sorrow. They do not have to worry that they will be punished if they question their pastor’s excessive lifestyle or his devotion to certain leaders or theologies. They meet others who have the same experiences and for the first time realize that their questions are valid and that they are not alone.
They experience the truth in this quote by CS Lewis who said, “Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another, ‘What! You too? I thought I was the only one” For the first time, they meet others who have experienced the same pain.
Mohler claims that Christians need the fellowship and accountability that can only be found in the local church.
Although both of us attend a local church, we both question the assumption that Christian fellowship can be found ONLY in a local church. In many of today’s very hip, mega churches with cool pastors, we find a smiling and well-dressed anonymity. Then, if someone actually confesses to a sin, all hell rains down from on high and “church discipline” is imposed, complete with discipline contracts, announcements from pulpits and imposition of shunning. (See Mark Driscoll’s Andrew debacle).
Do you think such responses are not the norm? If it is not, then the numbers of people who have visited this blog and told us stories are involved in mass psychosis. The reason that all these “cool” pastors do not believe that this happens on a large scale is because they stay above the fray, being “senior” pastors and contemplating the latest application of the word “gospel” instead of living it!!!!
I used to attend a wannabe Calvinista church. One day a woman approached me after I taught a class in which I urged the members to get help for their dark secrets. I was referring to a pedophile incident that had happened locally. She said to me that she could never tell people in that church her secrets. She had watched it happen one too many times. Women would confess their secrets and then, subtly the dynamics would change. They would become ostracized, but not overtly. A space would not be saved at a meeting table. They would not be invited to a birthday party luncheon.
She said that many of these women who did the ostracizing were hiding their own “secrets.”Perhaps they needed to hurt others to avoid dealing with the lie they were living in their “oh so accountable” local church.
This woman was correct. I had seen it. I remember being told by many people in the church that a certain couple had the best marriage on the planet and that they were held up as role models for others. Except, one year after such statements, they were divorced and about to marry other people due to affairs, etc.
No, local churches do not necessarily do a good job of accountability. In fact, at TWW we get emails in which people talk with us about their pain and issues. I would venture to guess that TWW has had more honest discussions with many people than many church pastors or seminary presidents.
Oh yeah, many of the folks who land here are victims of the latest “accountability” programs at local churches. Also, how about the degifting of pastors by SGM? In fact, how about the hundreds, or even thousands who claim Mohler’s best buddy, CJ Mahaney an the ministry he founded, has hurt them. Where is Mohler’s concern for the little guy? Oh, that’s right, he made sure that he editorialized about the wonders of Mahaney during the fiasco.
I would also imagine that Richard Land, the SBC vaunted ethicist, was a member of one of those “local” churches. Where was the accountability to his church? Oh yeah, probably directed at some little guy who wasn’t a leader. It took a blogger to define the problem and provide the evidence. What was going on with his church? Perhaps they were far too busy celebrating that the chief ethicist came to their church instead of checking out his pronouncements.
Mohler states that we need to hear sermons preached by flesh-and-blood preachers in the real-time experience of Christian worship
So, if one has a flesh and blood preacher who is speaking in real time, what exactly does that ensure? Most preachers of large churches are merely good speakers. How many of these guys know really know their congregation? How many members of their churches have actually pressed the flesh of their pastor? Oh yeah, does a handshake mean one has a REAL relationship with the “flesh and blood” pastor. Some SBTS graduates have bought into the “satellite” church concept. People sit in other venues and watch a video of the head pastor preaching at another location. Why is that satellite “real” and the internet community not “real?”
Many Christian blogs exist to tell the whole story. They allow for honest discussion, give and take, over long periods of time. People can tell their stories and get feedback without fear that we are going to make some big honking announcement at church that Mrs Jones is now under “discipline.”
Need I go through all the stories that we have covered on this blog about famous churches who have hidden pedophiles on staff or told women to continue to be physically abused by their husbands? How about the churches which are so excited when politicians and seminary presidents attend their venue that such leaders would never,ever be confronted with their indiscretions?
No, I am not overly impressed with the way some churches have handled their people. In fact, way too many people who have found their way to this blog have been given the left boot of fellowship from some of the cool, missional, gospel, flesh and blood, biblical churches.
Friendship on the internet
When our blog went down, we were overwhelmed by those who contacted us offering to help. Many of those same people were going through their own trials yet wanted to be of assistance.
About a week ago, we met with Sergius of Steam Tunnel Pilot as he was driving through Chapel Hill. We met at a restaurant and he knew it was us when he saw us carrying a bag of Cheetos, the official food of The Banned of Bloggers (more on that in another post). Sergius turned his blog into the official refugee site for TWW. He gave us a home when we had not a place to lay our weary words. Thank you Sergius!
Julie Anne Smith, of BGBC survivors, who is currently enduring her own trials, posted E Church on her site.
Wonderful folks like Tikatu and Thy Peace offered advice.
An anonymous friend found all the missing posts on google cache in case all of ours were lost.
Eagle kept us laughing with humorous emails
We received a boatload of emails, expressing love and concern.
Is this not community?
What about the hundreds of emails and phone calls we try to answer?
There was a lady who was being physically abused (punched in the face and stomach) by her husband and told to stay in her marriage by one of those “real time” pastors. With the help of a Christian professional that we at TWW happened to know, she left her husband and her church and found a place to be safe.
Then there was a man who was falsely accused by his SGM pastor of frequenting gay bars and got “Handed over to Satan” (read booted from his church).He made some friends on this blog who had also been “handed over to Satan” by their lovely pastors.
What about those moms who were being told, by pastors, to smack their kids if they didn’t obey them “the first time.”
How about Emmanuel Church, under the guidance of Wade Burleson, which has offered to provide counseling to those who have been hurt by church?
In my opinion (remember, I am NOT a Christian leader)Al Mohler is simply wrong. I doubt he will ever change his mind. Why? He will never hear these stories because his discussions are one-sided. He hears his own voice and the voices of fellow pastors who, frankly, worship the ground he walks on. Remember CJ Mahaney calling him “the smartest man on the planet?” CJ has been well rewarded for those SBTS donations.
I think Al Mohler goes to a porch church. Oh, it is well designed. He has studied all the doctrinal books, just like decorating books. He, and they, say the right thing. But I am seeing what goes on behind those closed doors. The outside may be pretty but the inside needs a whole lot of work.
Thank you to all of our friends. Your response has been more than we could have imagined. I only hope we can live up to your kindness.
In honor of TWW once again finding its voice, we encourage you to watch this heartwarming video of a baby who, for the first time, through the miracle of cochlear implants, hears his mother’s voice.
I read one of the interesting comments made by Benjamin S. Cole (as in) :
I can understand all the confusion. I sat next to an Arabic-speaking man of Middle Eastern descent on the airplane back from San Antonio last month. We struck up a conversation about religion, as he had just been reading an article in the local paper about our convention.
He asked me — at one point — what my thoughts were about Allah Mullah. I wasn’t quite sure what he was asking me, so I asked him to clarify. He held up the newspaper and pointed to the article and said:
“The man in the picture. Allah Mullah.”
“Oh yes,” I said. “Allah Mullah. He wants be our next Caliph.”
BSC
Welcome home, ladies.
“Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another, ‘What! You too? I thought I was the only one”
That is a quote that is near-universal regarding Furry Fandom and My Little Pony fandom.
That said, these types of Christians/Calvinistas keep reminding me of classic Communists in a LOT of ways:
Also, how about the degifting of pastors by SGM?
“Degifted” or “Purged”?
The reason that all these “cool” pastors do not believe that this happens on a large scale is because they stay above the fray, being “senior” pastors and contemplating the latest application of the word “gospel” instead of living it!!!!
Contemplating Purity of Ideology?
In fact, how about the hundreds, or even thousands who claim Mohler’s best buddy, CJ Mahaney, has hurt them. Where is Mohler’s concern for the little guy? Oh, that’s right, he made sure that he editorialized about the wonders of Mahaney during the fiasco.
“All Praise and Glory and Honor To Comrade Dear Leader!”
“The Party Can Do No Wrong. Ees Party Line, Comrades!”
I am so glad to see you’all back; a severe missing is an understatement. Dee, great insight into Mohler’s commentary–it’s amazing to me how un-self aware this neo-Calvinist strain of leadership is (probably applies to all neo-authoritarian leadership, as well).
I sometimes think that many of these institutions that seem so together, in reality, are headed for collapse, in a generation or two, simply because the children of parents who buy into their program will not be able to bear with the contradictions and hypocrisy that our generation is able to rationalize away. I am friends with a dear man who teaches a class on Christianity to mostly unbelievers using Tim Keller’s book (title escapes me, but deals with questions/apologetics). The problem most of his students have is not with Jesus–it is with the institutional church. The church that knows how to dictate, but not relate.
Cheers, dear Ones,
Welcome back, Dee & Deb!
Oh, I so get the “picture perfect porch”. It’s the kind of thing that makes you wish you had that kind of porch, too. So pretty and put together, but use it? Nah. That spoils the effect! A porch where people actually congregate has scuffed paint and a squeaky swing with faded pillows deeply dimpled by the derrieres of visitors. There’s no perfection in it, just the warm welcome of the owners and the gathering of neighbors. No one in these picture perfect churches actually are neighbors. By that I mean they don’t have to put up with a barking dog or a cat who digs in the flower garden or a passle of kids beating a path across the lawn as they go from house to house. There’s no sharing the messiness of life living as the ecclesia. Just that plastic Sunday smile and the perfect porch that no one dares sit on. Far too many churches today are just like that.
Here’s hoping the TechGuy (aka The Man Behind the Curtain) can bring y’all back up to snuff soon. I have so missed my daily visit with you glamorous blog queens!
HUG
You know, I kind of missed you this past week.
Rick
Thank you for your kind greeting. We missed you as well! Today, the secondary doctrine Nazis are having a filed day, insisting that it is their “gospel” way or the highway.Disagree with them and you disagree with the gospel.
I spent a number of years over at ExChristians and was dismayed the number of self-proclaimed Christians would show up over there and insult all of the commenters.They threatened them with the fires of hell and never once showed a bit of love (well, a few claimed it was loving to speak of them burning in hell).
A few more of us need to demonstrate our faith with our love instead of endless pontification about doctrinal minutiae.
We understand that he is cool, writing for the Washington Post and all.
Biggest laugh of my cyber-week, with honorable mention going to “Allah Mullah.”
SMG
Sergius,
Thanks for your kindness in encouraging dialogue at The Steam Tunnel among our TWW “family” while we were offline. It really meant a lot!
While we were taking a break from blogging (albeit involuntarily), I really enjoyed reading through your posts. You have a rare gift!
Welcome back. You have been missed. Wish I had known that Sergius had you on his site!
Too busy now for more, but great to have you here.
Sergius
You beat him on all “cool” fronts. You are the best!
Dee and All,
My husband came home this afternoon and asked my daughter and me – “Do you know what significant thing happened 68 years ago today?”
D-Day
Three summers ago my daughter’s choir traveled to France, and I was blessed to chaperone this group. One of the places we visited was Normandy. Our tour guide did his best to help us imagine what happened as we overlooked the scene where the Allied Forces came ashore. Then we took a solemn walk through the American Cemetery in Normandy. As we prepared to leave, the choir gave an impromptu performance at the Memorial. My daughter is on the top row, second from the right (wearing sunglasses).
CCGC Sings at the American Cemetery in Normandy
The choir conductor is the head of the Department of Music at Meredith College, and both of my daughters were blessed to be in this choir for most of their formative years.
It seems fitting that since our blog went down on Memorial Day weekend (Friday, May 25th) that it would be restored on this important day in history. God is good! 🙂
Eagle
CJ would promptly de-gift the entire quorum of 70 and appoint himself as both Quorom and Prophet. He would then gift himself the planets of Jupiter and Saturn to enjoy in eternity.
Arce
Glad to hear from you as well.
Eagle
I continue to pray for your dad and look forward to hearing about his progress.
I had this idea that I may push in the coming weeks. We all need to flood the comment sections of other blogs that only allow for “nice” or complimentary comments. We should pick inane niceties such as “You rock my world” or “How perspicacious” or “How absolutely wonderful” or “you’ve done John Piper proud.” It could be humorous.
I also need to start a page on this blog where we can post comments that have been rejected by other blogs and identify the blogs that did so. So much to do, so little time…
So good to have you back! As a techno-ignoramus there was nothing I could do to help.
The only time in my life I ever found real intimacy in a local church, it turned out to be the leverage for spiritual abuse. When people in churches live in anonymous suburbs, rather than old-time communities (like the local village) where everyone knew each other, then even in church we only know as much about one another as people choose to reveal. A bit like the internet really. Having had the experience a few years ago of a con woman who operated in our church for a couple of years, and seeing the damage she caused with her falsehoods (she claimed qualifications and experience she did not have, and in the end a couple of very experienced people invested in her ‘business’, trusting her because they knew her in church) How is the internet worse than that?
It fascinates me how these so-called experts talk about the internet in such cautionary terms. Isn’t it just the modern technological equivalent of old-fashioned letter writing? (only greatly improved in its immediacy and our ability to make new pen-friends) Funny objection really, for guys who put such high value on the written word .. Or do they just mean that its relative cheapness and accessibility make it harder to control? You know, I seem to recollect that once upon a time there was a guy called Paul who seemed to think that letter-writing was a great way to build up fellowship and guide the church (he even wrote to churches in places like Rome where he hadn’t actually met them yet). Funny, I think his letters will still be read long after Rev Mohler’s opinions are gone and forgotten ..
Great points, Lynne!
What I find absolutely fascinating (and hypocritical) about the Calvinistas (Neo-Cals) is that they built their movement primarily through this technology. They can’t have it both ways!
It’s great to be back! We missed the twelve days apart from our TWW family more than you’ll ever know.
Pastors make a big emphasis on being a part of a church and if you don’t go then you are disobeying God. The problem with that theory is that there are people who can’t go to church due to an illness or for whatever reason. So I guess that means they are disobeying God. These pastors don’t live in the real world and have no clue what it is like.
stormy
Then there was the early church era in which there were not many churches, so how did they survive? There are some good reasons for not going to church, one of which is the pain caused by many churches.If the church caused the pain, who is to blame?
Lynne
Trust me, we are both technopeasants ourselves!
Oh yes, there are famous pastors who have pushed Amway from the pulpit. Some others have pushed disgraced pastors. Others have denigrated their congregations. There are pastors who believe that they are much smarter than their congregations and that they should be obeyed.Need we discuss the pedophiles, the skirt chasers, the money worshippers, the ones who believe that building a $120 million dollar addition is the best way to do church,and on and on. So, when one of the little guys has enough and quits and goes to meet Christians on the internet who do not ask him for his money, do not demand he parks cars, and just enjoys him for who God created him to be, that is wrong? Hmmm…something is wrong with this picture.
Eagle
I loved this. “We could save ourselves a lot of grief by remembering the centrality and priority of the resurrection and by putting everything else in (that) perspective.” We preach Christ crucified and risen. That is the key that many forget. We chase after the latest and greatest thing-Left Behind, Prayer of Jabez, NeoCalvinism, etc. Go back to Jesus.
Eagle,
Here’s what happened 28 years ago. Enjoy!
Normandy Speech: Ceremony Commemorating the 40th Anniversary of the Normandy Invasion, D-Day
Yes, TWW is here to liberate – not to conquer.
I have friends who don’t go to church (mainly because of bad experiences) They get regularly attacked with the “Let us not give up meeting together” schtick. My answer is always the same: are you having some kind of relationship somewhere with at least one other Christian? Then you are “meeting together”. Jesus said He’d be where 2 or 3 are gathered together in His name. It doesn’t have to be 2 or 3 hundred before it counts!
I actually think that what some of these Calvinistas really mean is : are you sitting under the bossy (oops,’authoritarian’) preaching of a pastor every Sunday so that you stay brainwashed?
Al Mohler has a point. The only way the Calvinistas can control you is if they can get you in the building. After all, that is how he makes his living. Educating young guys on how to be authoritarian leaders. No building, no people, no authority.
The internet is messing up his goal of spreading the Gospel of Calvin far and wide and be the top of the heap of the new SBC/GBC Magisterium:
http://sbctoday.com/2012/05/30/an-introduction-to-%e2%80%9ca-statement-of-the-traditional-southern-baptist-understanding-of-god%e2%80%99s-plan-of-salvation%e2%80%9d/
Eagle, I am right now reading Michael Spencer’s book which addresses this very thing: Going to church.
And how many times leaving church is the most Christian, following Jesus thing you can do for your life! I totally agree. We will be accountable for enabling and supporting evil. Too many people turning blind eyes and following man instead of Christ.
One option is to do something similar to what Etsy users have done to complain about people selling mass produced items as their own. On Etsy users can make lists of ‘handpicked items’, which you give a name to – it’s basically a ‘picking your favourites’ sort of thing. When complaining about mass produced items being sold as hand made didn’t get them removed from the site, users started making ‘handpicked’ lists where every item was the same bauble being sold by all these different false sellers. And because Etsy also deletes negative comments, people leave sarcastically positive comments – they’re all oh so unique! and the like – as their way to try and drive the point home.
We could take inspiration from that and all use the one catchphrase and see how long it takes for them to catch on to the sarcasm.
Oh, and welcome back!
I don’t live in a large city so I know a lot of the “church folk” around here.Some know I don’t go anymore and if the ones I use to hang with found out(of course they may already know.Word travels fast here), they would label me as “backslidden.” One already tryed to label me as backslidden even when I was going, as if she knew what was in my heart.
Stormy
I have heard this stuff so frequently that it makes me want to barf. I want to develop a certificate that you can keep in your wallet that says “TWW officially certifies that the holder is not backslidden.” You can pull it out and they can contact our emails for confirmation.
In fact, it might be interesting .Sergius-are you reading this???
Pam
Trust me. I think such a thing would be really funny. It would be fun to find a post that is so over the top hyper authoritarian (which occurs weekly with these guys), write a post about it and then encourage the “How incredibly insightful” comments to fly.
Welcome back Dee and Deb!!
I am beginning to see that it is considered a “mortal sin” to some of these pastors if one does not “go to church” every Sunday. Thou shalt not break the winsome and robust Calvinista first commandment:
Show Up–Shut Up–Pay Up
(shortened to stay, pay, obey, in some translations).
Diane
Thank thou for your greeting. I love your “winsome” comment on the gospel and biblical message of shut up and pay up. I know another guy who calls it focusing on bums and bucks.
Anon1
I, too, read Spencer’s Churchianity book. He is spot on and I miss him.
Dee, people would also label me as being self-righeous and prideful. Ok, so I’m self-righteous and prideful because I don’t want to be around the narcissitic pharasees(which by the way never change) who only reak havoc in others lives. It took me a long time to figure out that what I was experiencing at church was no different from what I had experienced with my own family.
The funny thing about it that even though I hadn’t figured out(at that time)what was really happening at church is that I always had gut feeling that something wasn’t right. That things were not as they seemed. I now listen to my gut on everything.
How ’bout an acronym – SUSUPU or SUS UP U !!!
Eagle –
I read this at IM earlier in the week too. Loved it! It is so true. Jesus is the Gospel.
If I was someone contemplating my new life as a Christian in today’s environment, I would be scarred to death that I would do/think something wrong and be banned from eternity with God.
If I was contemplating becoming a Christian and was reading the articles on the internet written by some of the Calvinistas, I think I would be running the other way.
God’s kindness leads us to repentance . . . and when we look at Jesus and his interactions with people, we are seeing how God the Father views us and loves us.
Eagle, I’m afraid both Charmin and Scott are seriously compromised — and that’s not even taking into account that Mr. Whipple of the “Don’t-squeeze-the-Charmin” commercials was a 32nd-degree Freemason. Best to practice secondary separation and stick with Desiring Softness.
SMG
🙂
Dee and Deb –
Good to have you back. Hope you had a nice break from the norm, even if the norm is something you love 🙂
Have you been reading the SBC Today this week? All quite interesting with Mahaney and Co. heading to Louisville.
On another note, Rachel Held Evans is doing a week long series of articles on “Mutuality” that has been really good.
Dee and Deb,
Speaking of sin, I was wondering if there could be a discussion sometime about the subject of sin and the lingo. Example, “repent and turn away from sin.” As though we will never sin again.
Mac Arthur believes that as you mature in the Lord that you will sin less. I’ve never read that in the Bible and I’ve never seen anyone “sin less.”
I just posted something that might interest people here:
Voskamp, Challies, One Thousand Gifts, and what is truly ironic to me
http://sallieborrink.com/voskamp-challies-one-thousand-gifts-and-what-is-truly-ironic-to-me/
I just wanted to add that those who think I’m being prideful and self-righteous because I don’t want to go to church are the pharasees themselves.
Stormy
People who use such epithets do so because you are challenging their core beliefs. And those core beliefs have little to do with the faith and everything to do with them needing to prove that somehow they are better Christians.Such christians are insecure in their own faith. When you hear such things, pat them on the arm and think “Poor thing, she really doesn’t get it.”
Stormy
I totally disagree with MacArthur on that. The more mature we get, the less we sin in an outward way so that it gives the appearance of “holiness.” However, as one of my pastors likes to say “Even on my best days, my motives are mixed. So, we might not go out partying with Rielle Hunter but we still might be arrogant.petty and thoughtless. Hmmmm, how many pastors also fit that description as well?
Pam, I hadn’t thought of it before, but there really are some weird similarities to Etsy’s cupcake culture and some of the shenaningans in YRR circles.
That’s funny!
Stormy
You know, all of us at times can exhibit any amount of any kind of sin. That is how these legalistic churches “get” you. One can always point out sins. The best way to handle it is to say, you know, you’re right in some respects. In fact, I have so many sins that you aren’t even scratching the surface.Same with you. So, do you want me to start discussing your sins or do you want to listen to me. Just because I am a sinner, doesn’t mean I am wrong about what I am saying.” I said something similar to a person once and she shut up, real fast.
Sergius
I have it from good sources that Mr Whipple was involved in child sacrifice as the warlock leader of a coven which was run by Proctor and Gamble executive. I heard they confessed this on an old Phil Donahue show.
Bridget
The SBC is headed for some trouble over Calvinism versus the Arminian theology. There is trouble brewing under the surface. The Calvinistas are to blame for this conflict, often drawing the line in the sand about “perfecto” theology.Frankly, they deserve each other. We will report on the fireworks as they arise.
Eagle
HUG is a piece of work. Since I am, as well, I like him. Birds of a feather so to speak.
well, we all know about Proctor & Gamble. They didn’t even try to hide it!
Eagle
The porch analogy can only serve as a limited example. It is kind of like pastors who use the sheep metaphors in the Bible and then go onto explain how sheep are dumb and bad. Whenever the Scriptures use the word sheep, it is said in a loving way to convey that sheep need their shepherd (Jesus) and he loves them very much.
I think that blogs are in some respects like that porch. I often grab a cup of coffee and sit down to read and respond to comments, kind of like sitting on a porch with a friend. But i would not want to return to the days of porch sitting if it meant that I would have to accept Jim Crow, etc.
Sergius
You do know about the P+G emblem? It is surely a sign of a vast Satanic conspiracy. I heard that, instead of casual Fridays, they make people dress up as their favorite witch or warlock and serve bloody mary cocktails all day.(For P+G attorneys-this is meant to be a satire about stupid Christians who believe urban myths-I love Tide)
Sallie, great post–great website. I went a little pale with the VanDoodewaard’s comment regarding the need for more men like Challies–(my paraphrase of her meaning)–tell us how and what to think, define our boundaries for us, keep us safe from those who might provoke us to original thought or make us examine why we believe what we believe. My son once told me that what bothered him (and his 20-something friends) most from his time in youth programs is that the church’s message to him growing up was to be afraid to engage those different from us.
All joking aside, Proctor & Gamble really “cleaned up” against four Amway distributors.
Procter & Gamble Awarded $19.25 Million in Satanism Lawsuit
You’re going to be missing me again soon. I’ll be on vacation after middle of next week, and I try to stay away from the Web when I do so.
“If ye could hie to Kolob…”
I’ve long held that listening to Juicy Confessions of Sin Sin Sin (always The Other Guy’s Sin Sin Sin) is how Church Lady types get their porn fix.
Dee- you wrote:
“Mohler claims that those who run are “Leaving the real world behind” In fact, the ones who are leaving the real world behind are those pastors and bloggers who hide from the ideas and critiques of the little guy. They are the ones who say people are sinning when they ask questions such as “Why is my pastor on the road more than he is in church?” They are accused of having a “questioning spirit” which is Calvinista lingo to shut up, fork over the money, and do what I say because I know better than you.”
And-
“Running from pastors who overreach and punish members for asking questions.”
Ray Ortlund has posted an article about “scoffers.” It’s short- so am posting the whole thing here because it’s a great/horrible example of how these pastors group all questions into a “category” of negative speech, scoffing, wickedness, divisiveness, and all out dirty rotten sinful no-goodness. After a bunch of Proverbs, and the Titus 3:10 scrpture taken out of context, he writes:
“Not every opinion deserves a place at the table. It is the responsibility of a church’s elders to monitor the conversation going on in their church and encourage the positive and confront the negative.
Sadly, some people just don’t listen. They are too self-assured. Reasonable discourse leaves them unsatisfied, because they are unsatisfiable. They do not feel that you understand them until you agree with them. The only acceptable outcome is their outcome, which they will pursue relentlessly. The Bible calls this kind of person a scoffer (Proverbs 9:7-8; 13:1; 15:12; 21:24). He (or she) might be a highly impressive person outwardly. Very able. A strong personality. Convincing. But even in little ways (“. . . winks with his eyes”), this person sows discord in their church — small provocations with big impact.
Sometimes people overreach in this way because they claim they have been hurt. But no one, however wounded, has the right to disrupt the blood-bought peace of a church. The sacred wounds of Christ overrule all others. Moreover, in today’s climate of victimization, hurt can, in fact, be hate. Elders are responsible to discern this and confront it, even if the person offending is a long-standing member and a personal friend.
It is the privilege of elders to keep the conversation going on 24/7 in their church positive — about Jesus, his gospel and his mission. Those elders who accept this clear teaching of the Bible and courageously follow through will, in the long run, “have delight, and a good blessing will come upon them.” To preserve their church in those green pastures and beside those still waters, the elders might have to ask the trouble-maker to leave. They will do so reluctantly and carefully, and they will try not to embarrass the offender, but faithful elders will obey the Bible. And everyone in their church will breathe a sigh of relief.”
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/rayortlund/
Thoughtful of them to try not to embarrass the “offender” as they kick him out while holding back their sighs of relief. 🙁
Positve speech = staying in the fold. Jesus loves that.
Negative speech = getting booted. Jesus only loves positive speech.
“Doubt leads to Questioning.
Questioning leads to Thinking.
Thinking leads to Heresy.
Heresy deserves Retribution.
Blessed is the mind too small for Doubt.”
— Warhammer 40K
Hello, Glamourous Blog Queens — Yes, I missed you, too.
Al Mohler’s editorial, and many other similar things that are pro-church attendance / anti-blog reading written by others, remind me of a commerical i once saw about “plastic”.
There were images of pristine nature, nature sounds in the background like a running stream and birds chirping, a soothing voice — it was all about the vitures of plastic, how it makes our lives better, and how it is surprisingly a “good thing” for the environment. The commercial was courtesy of plastics industries.
It was, of course, a response to a load of highly publicized bad press.
Diane
Oh my, encourage the positive and confront the negative.
Howza about confronting the positive? “Isn’t my church wonderful for hiding a pedophile’s presence form the congregation?” “I am so blessed to see that pastor living large.” “How nice that my pastor is only here 30 weeks a year. He needs that time off to bless others besides me.””I think it was so nice that they told Sally to go back and get beat up by her husband. Thank you for such thoughtfulness.” “”Wow, such decisiveness for firing Bent Myer. I am blessed.” “I am thrilled that they all have decided to encourage CJ Mahaney as opposed to all those nasty people who were hurt. CJ is such a good, good man. Everyone knows it”
A prophecy for Ortlund from jeremiah 6:14 “They dress the wound of my people as though it were not serious. ‘Peace, peace,’ they say, when there is no peace.”
Deb,
Salut!
Bienvenue!
Normandie?
…Imaginez ce qui se passe car nous voyons la scène où le Seigneur du ciel vient à Terre ?
Votre salut attire près, oui ?
Bénédictions !
Sur votre « six »
Le Sopy
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TWW…Like a bridge over troubled water? When darkness comes and pain is all around…when you need a friend TWW’s sailing right behind… Oh! Yeah!
Comic relief: Michael W Smith – “Bridge Over Troubled Water”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX5X9SxRdT8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
“in fact, I have so many sins that you aren’t even scratching the surface,” LOL, so true.
You know when I have said things back to others who are pointing out my sin or my so-called( sometimes it wasn’t but it was to them) sin, I would say for example, “we all have blind spots.” Dee, it was like they couldn’t see their own sin and I was talking to a brick wall. Highly narcissistic people only see what’s wrong with others, because they can do no wrong.
I feel so tempted to post a video of Sinatra singing “Fly me to the Moon”… ; )
“Ministering From Ole Slewfoot’s Porch, Perhaps?”
HowDee YaAll,
Welcome back Wartburg!
TWW – “A 21 gun solute”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVps4U-2cTM&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Marines and Bagpipes – “Amazing Grace”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5P1M5qwBwo&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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A humble question for illustrious Al Mohler, proverbially, if a certain “Church Pastor” is effectively treading the corn in the adversary’s field, why should I subsidize it?
Muzzling the ox that treads the corn?
hmmm…
It has been written : (1 Tim 5: 17-18) ” Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of adouble honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, ‘You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,’ (De 25:4) and, ‘The laborer deserves his wages.’ (Matt 10:10, Luke 10:7; Lev 19:13, De 24:15, 1Cor 9:4, 17-14.)
I say let their “master” pay them, if he is able?
I subscribe that that “master” might not be Jesus.
(Let the reader decide…)
A house of prayer, Al Mohler? You have got to be kidding? Come on, you are smarter than that, right? At least C.J. Mahaney thinks so, for what it’s worth…
(grin)
hahahahahahaha
S㋡py
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Comic relief: “The ‘true’ Shepherd?”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t6_wI7wow8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Inspiration: Hillsong – “All Heaven Declares”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og3sYXgBST4&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Bonus: Hillsong – “All the heavens”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tA8H34YKig&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Just one thought about ‘Allah Mullah”s statement, “we need to hear sermons preached by flesh-and-blood preachers in the real-time experience of Christian worship.”
Just think of all the sermons mentioned in the book of Acts. A common feature? Even though most were brief, they were INTERRUPTIBLE. By the listeners crying out “What must we do!” By authorities dragging the preachers off to jail. By gnashing of teeth and hurled stones. By the Holy Spirit descending upon the household. By mocking. By someone falling asleep, dying, and being raised. And so on. And most of these NOT in anything like a “worship service”.
I have a sneaking suspicion that similar ranting occurred when telephones started to become affordable… of course, you could get your gossip fix that way, too, what with party lines *and* local operators listening in.
Hmm. Like the song says, “Everything old is new again.”
I missed you!
Glad you are back: )
Ah yes. Plastics.
As in this scene from “The Graduate” –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSxihhBzCjk
Uh oh – I ended up in the moderation queue because I posted a URL!
(Not that I’m complaining, mind you – since I’m so glad the site is back. :))
numo,
ALL comments are currently being moderated and subsequently approved. Dee and I even have to approve our own comments!
Personal to King Jehoiakim or Mr Kjos: Please have that last prophecy stricken from the record. 🙁
Sopy,
Oui, c’était vraiment surréaliste étant en Normandie. Tant de vies ont été perdues, comme ils ont débarqué. Le cimetière américain était situé sur le bord de l’océan, et il y a eu une baisse énorme dans le cimetière de l’eau ci-dessous. Il était à couper le souffle !
Nous avons aussi passé du temps à Caen, Bayeux, Paris, et quelques autres endroits. Mount St. Michele était l’un de mes préférés sites français.
Salut à vous!
Firstly: Deb & Dee – so glad to see the you two Divas back behind the Blogging Wheel again 🙂 You have been missed!
Stormy: I have a hunch that many of the readers of my blog wished they had been able to trust their gut. What many experienced was spiritual abuse. Some want to go back to church, but can’t do it emotionally because they are paralyzed in fear, too many memories. For some it causes acute mental health issues (anxiety disorders, depression, PTSD, panic attacks, dissociative disorders). Spiritual abuse is dangerous stuff affecting families for decades. I’m shocked at the stories I’m reading. It is not a small problem in the States, it is far reaching and devastating. It’s time the world wakes up to this sad reality.
On my blog we have recently been discussing practical ways of getting “back” to God by trying to remove some of those negative reminders and also how to look for healthy churches and other options including getting away from the institutional church.
I’m so glad Dee and Deb fully understand this and are not afraid to deal with it here. We must stand up for victims of abuse.
Deb – gotcha!
*So* nice to see that you have paragraphs again.
Eagle,
J’ai étudié le français à l’école et de deux semestres à l’université. Je suis très rouillées.
Les Anglais vers français traducteur site est fantastique! 🙂
Salut !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_hFw_cWg9U&feature=related
I missed the link to the translation site – could someone please re-post?
Many thanks in advance!
Here’s another vid – you don’t need to know French for this one, though it will probably add to the enjoyment if you do!
http://youtu.be/xBpHkMgWld8
Amen, sibling.
“Mohler claims that Christians need the fellowship and accountability that can only be found in the local church.”
Because your spouse or other family members one lives with cannot possibly fill either of those roles. Uh huh. They want you accountable to a group of people you will hopefully become friends with and never want to leave. Peer pressure. Maybe one day, if you’re really good accountability material, you can get into the cool elder’s wives accountability group. (But probably not.)
“The reason that all these “cool” pastors do not believe that this happens on a large scale is because they stay above the fray, being “senior” pastors and contemplating the latest application of the word “gospel” instead of living it!!!!”
Like “gospel friendships”!!!! Had not heard of that one before.
http://www.acts29network.org/acts-29-blog/we-need-to-stop-being-so-nice-sometimes–planter-wives-answer-pt-3/
What is a, “3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,”… friendship? (1Cor 15:3-4)
The gospel is not a type of friendship.
One of my favorite musical experiences is a symphonic piece “Lonely Beach”. It is a concerto of sorts, featuring the bassoon, who plays the soldier who died on the beach. My son, then a freshman in HS, played the bassoon well enough for the conductor to schedule it for a concert. It involves bringing in all the drums from a marching band, putting them all around the sides and back of the hall, in addition to having a large drum crew on the platform. Different instruments play different roles musically. Fantastic for live performance, not so much for listening to a recording.
What Mohler and Mahaney and their whole misbegotten crew don’t seem to realize is PEOPLE CAN THINK FOR THEMSELVES. We don’t need their ilk to presume to do our thinking for us, and we sure as shooting don’t need to attend “churches” where the main aim appears to consist of beating the holy hell out of us on a regular basis.
Is it any wonder so many Christians, given the choice on a Sunday morning of either attending one of these “holy smackdowns”, led by a thinly-smiling but dysfunctional and self-aggrandizing yardape with more problems than they have, or heading to the driving range and enjoying a few brewskis with good friends, tend to pick the latter?
Suggestion
We need someone to set up a clearing house for rating churches and pastors, an on-line, check here to see if they are whatever. One well set up site could accommodate all of that, and get a lot of notice as well. And with an appropriate disclaimer, that the comments come from the public and not the operator, I think it would be unSLAPPable. Not a place for long comments, just tweet or smaller sized.
Is The SBC Un-Equally Yoked With A Proverbial Calvinista Nightmare?
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HowDee YaAll,
*
What?
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Is the SBC plowing the church field with an ox and a donkey yoked together? Deut 22:10
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Seeing that the proverbial porn preacher has been kicked to the curb,
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The proverbial donkey, …that would be C.J. Mahaney perhaps!?!
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We’ll leave the proverbial Ox to your imagination,
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Maybe there is a reason people are running away from SBC churches today,
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Kinda makes ya wonder…
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“In church, no one can hear you scream?”
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(sadface)
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S㋡py
*___
Comic relief: “The Matrix” – The Twilight Zone…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7Y3hhduFIg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
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Bonus : Is the SBC Pushing the Envelope too far?
In the near future, will there be a SBC church anyone would want to go back to?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCQmA3Eno7U&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Dee-Deb,
Did you happen to see this recap from the NEXT conference?
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/NEXT-2012-7c-SUNDAY-AM-7c-SESSION-27c-RECAP.aspx
“How will your soul be protected as you journey through a fallen world with a sinful heart? Church membership protects us from our ability to wander. If you are not a member of a church you are in danger of falling into sin.”
(Wander…you mean the vote with your feet kind? Then I would agree. It can be pretty painful to wander with a covenant in place. And if church membership can keep me from the danger of “falling into sin”…sign me up. Somehow…I doubt it.)
“Until we have a sturdy biblical conviction about the importance of church membership, our generation will not mature in godliness, be a strong witness to the lost, or glorify God in our walks with God.
“Jesus died to purchase for us a glorious salvation and the privilege of membership with the people of God.”
Let us thank God for the glorious privileges and protection that come from church membership.”
Thus says this SGM “elder”. Jesus died to purchase church membership for us? Well, we who are believers ARE members of His Body, but I don’t think that’s quite what he means. No- I think he is adding to the gospel just a bit.
Sturdy, biblical conviction? How about if I have a winsome, robust and gospellllyyyyy conviction. Will that work? NO!!
That’s what’s wrong with everything. We don’t have the sturdy, biblical conviction. Let’s all get right on that — so we can save this generation and glorify God in our walks.
numo,
You didn’t miss the translation site link. I was trying to keep it a secret. 🙂
http://translation.babylon.com/english/to-french/
Hello, This is my first time here at TWW. Thanks for having such an open forum and not censoring. I found it via The Evangelical Universalist Forum. I had been “detained” and “contained” by the PCA, SGM, A29 and the likes for over 35 years until the religious and theological abuse just became too much and something had to give.
The one thing that radically changed my life was to discover that the God who wanted to save all people (Arminians) was in fact the same God who had the irresistible love and grace to do so (Calvinism). And I believe this BECAUSE of the Bible not in spite of it. That theology right there was enough to release me from the agenda of these institutions. I continue to be a very strong believer in what would be represented in the historical creeds (which do not mention eternal conscious torment, btw). I love Jesus Christ and believe that He defeated sin and death through His death and very real resurrection from the dead. I am now learning to be driven by love and not fear.
I believe and have observed that much of the control and abuse in the Church stems from their perceived “power” to hold “eternal conscious torment” over our heads. We are led to believe we need the Church to tell us how to be saved, in the final analysis, …from God (esp. by Calvinism). Mark Chandler’s last book terrifyingly threatens eternal hell over his readers in the tradition of Piper. I did a very respectful review of the book challenging this but Chandler had it removed (it is now on Christianuniversalism.com)
Lots here I can relate to having been immersed in the neo-Calvinist movement and witnessed much of its abusive pride– very ironic of a movement defending such a humble theology as “The Doctrines of Grace” –but with the exception of Tim Keller, a truly humble man in my estimation. (BTW, we have an open letter to Keller on the site graciously appealing to his inconsistent theology.)
grace and peace,
godslovewins.com
From Jared Mellinger’s sermon “The Church and Membership” 21:50 mark
“You want to link arms with brothers and sisters who won’t abandon you when life gets hard, abandon you when there are relational difficulties.”
http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/blogs/sgm/post/NEXT-2012-conference-audio.aspx
I wonder if CJ was in the audience listening to that.
Just like the plastics industry, the church industry needs to be pumped up. Job security ‘n all. Careers are at stake.
So glad the South’s most illustrious blog queens are back on the throne! Cyberspace wasn’t the same without you. 🙂
Lolz. Probably not.
Diane –
The troops are out in full force pounding the pavement to get all the lost souls (Christians not in an “approved” local church?) back into the approved buildings. I wouldn’t be surprised if a survey of SGM sermons for the next few weeks turned up an abundance of preaching on the importance of the local church AND its elders.
shadowspring
When we are on the throne, so are our readers and that’s what makes it so cool.
Diane
“You want to link arms with brothers and sisters who won’t abandon you when life gets hard, abandon you when there are relational difficulties.” So, did I pick myself off the floor laughing or stay and roll around a bit more? Wait til today’s post.
Julie Anne, “spirtual abuse” Yes, been there. The reason why people don’t trust their gut is because of the brainwashing, gaslighting and munipulation that goes on. You are taught to ignore that what you are seeing is not reality and if you do notice something that isn’t right, then it’s your issue, not theirs. That leaves your brain in confusion because you really believe that those people(or you thought) had your best interest in mind. When in fact, they never cared about you at all.
Diane –
CJ introduced Jared. He is CJ’s next Joshua Harris.
The rules of church membership that these churches are teaching do not apply to CJ. We saw what CJ “really” believed about church membership. He was very clear with his actions.
I for one deeply appreciate Dr. Mohler. He puts himself out front and handles himself with dignity and class. Is he right on everything? No. Nonetheless he has a profound influence on many people including myself and my ministry in the college where I teach. I seriously doubt Dr. Mohler has time to entertain a lot of questions on a blog and would not be a wise stewardship of his time, and I think is very gracious to allow people to email him. It grieves me to read many comments around the internet that ascribe motives to his ministry which no man can discern except for God. Good to have you all back up and running.
“or told women to continue to be physically abused by their husbands?”
Any man who tells a woman to endure such suffering is completely void of the grace and mercy of God.
Living in the “South” I have heard that this “counsel” has been offered to women on numerous occasions. Such counsel is godless. I feel sorry for those who will stand before God and give an account for offering such in His Name.
P.S. The video is precious!
P.P.S. Welcome Back!
John,
There was a time when I respected Mohler. I attended chapel at Southeastern maybe six years ago to hear him. I never thought I would become skeptical and distrusting of Christian leaders like Mohler. As he continues to narrow his theological viewpoints, more and more Christians (like Dee and me) feel disenfranchised.
Here is an article he wrote that recently appeared in TableTalk Magazine. Why Controversy is Sometimes Necessary
Could this be a shot across the SBC bow, given that the messengers from Southern Baptist churches convene for their annual meeting in a few short weeks? Just how narrow does Mohler plan to define his theology?
Hi, Deb, By limiting parameters do you mean Calvinism, complementarianism or something else? I am honestly asking.Thanks
I do not like the new comment posting system. To catch up to the comments on your post requires that I scan every comment to find the most recent ones that have been posted since I read last. It takes way too much of my time, and I cannot spend that kind of time rescanning comments. So I may have to quit commenting and reading comments if this manner of posting comments continues. Before I could quickly find the latest comment on a post and read from there; no more can do.
I cannot speak for his motives but if I remember this is the famous ‘Triage” of classifying biblical issues and how they should rank in order of prominence. I got from what he saying that ‘controversy’ is or could be used as a catalyst for the opportunity to promote truth or to advocate a biblical position of a matter. I don’t attend conventions anymore but this one in New Orleans should be a doosey!
Arce
That will be changed shortly. There are still some bugs to be worked out. I had no idea that our blog gets more comments than many. That has caused some issues in restoring.
Hi Phillip, and Welcome!
Just this last week I read some of your comments on the TWW post (and maybe others) at the EU discussion board. Some of my Calvinist friends have really had me thinking more about this topic recently. Usually it’s an argument of irresistible logic against Arminianism which concludes, “You are not a universalist, so (TULIP point proved)”. And I think, well… Maybe I should be… P S Are you and Gregory descendants of the illustrious George? 🙂
Arce – given how the site went down and everything, I’m thrilled to be able to comment, period!
A review site??? Kinda like Google? Lol
Dee and Deb:
You wrote “They experience the truth in this quote by CS Lewis who said, “Friendship is born at that moment when one person says to another, ‘What! You too? I thought I was the only one” For the first time, they meet others who have experienced the same pain. Mohler claims that Christians need the fellowship and accountability that can only be found in the local church. Although both of us attend a local church, we both question the assumption that Christian fellowship can be found ONLY in a local church.”
I have been a Christian for a long time and have not found true fellowship in a local church. I was disappointed but I accepted it as a fact of life. Then I found a local 12-step group where people share their pain in a most genuine way and friendship was born. So, I question the assumption of Mr. Mohler whom I do not know and have never met. Pastors and many folks in a local church setting tend to be very guarded, unreal and difficult to know. I have the feeling they want to appear “spiritual” much more than authentic. How can someone know you if you are not your true self with warts and all?
Eagle, Mohler’s church, Highview, in Louisville has satelite campuses. I think it is ok when they downlink sermons or send prepared sermons to be delivered on site…. but it is not for you. I think the rule is you have to be in a building in a pew. Mohler said so, so it must be in the Bible.
I wonder if reading Paul’s letters to the church would be a problem for Mullah Al?
I have always thought that the more we mature spiritually the more the Holy Spirit convicts of sins we never even recognized in ourselves before.
Dave A A Thanks for the welcome! George MacDonald is one of my all time heros so I couldn’t resist. We all had to take pseudonyms since we have family members and friends still enmeshed in TGC, SGM and A29. And of course we have been told via Piper what the sentence is for someone who entertains UR…”farewell.” Not quite ready to hear that from family. Expecting the new movie Hellbound to bust open a lot of conversations in September. Maybe we will have to just talk about it at that point.
Unfortunately we have quite a few “front seat stories” of abuse from our involvement in the neo-Calvinist movement. They are quite heart-wrenching. But this truth that God is bigger than we have been led to believe or even dare hope has been the most powerful and healing truth for us. Not sure where we would be without this incredible view of God’s love. It has literally rescued us.
If you are interested I did a post on how J. I. Packer led me first from Arminianism to Calvinism 35 years ago (albeit kicking and screaming) and then more recently into the doctrine of Ultimate Reconciliation. (Just google “ji packer death of death” and we are near the top) Calvinism is a missing piece of the puzzle for sure but it dead-ends and implodes on itself because the Gospel is expansive and seems to have a way of bursting out of its “wineskins.” Besides, the fruit of Calvinism as we know has been quite negative.
Our websites specialize in addressing primarily the neo-Reformed leaders by respectfully but firmly addressing their inconsistencies and reveal how they have actually SUPPORTED Christian Universalism. (Driscoll, Keller, “The Don”, Chandler etc.,) We are targeting them because they are “big on doctrine” and sponsor all the major conferences etc., (But of course the Arminians provide the “other side” of the victorious Story of God so we do address them as well.)
Anyway, I encourage you to keep seeking and considering the position of UR and you might be surprised at what you find!
Shalom,
“phillip”
godslovewins.com
christianuniversalism.com
“the fellowship and accountability that can only be found in the local church”
Every Sunday for 45 minutes to an hour,
– Your butt stays firmly in a pew
– Your mouth stays firmly shut
– Have a Bible opened on the lap
– Shut down the logical part of the brain completely (be “teachable”)
– Look attentive with your gaze fixed on some guy who is telling you what to believe and think
– If you are a woman, use The Stepford Wives as a guide for your behavior
All of the requirements above and perhaps more must be met in order to set in motion celestial elements in the spiritual realm to clear the spiritual tunnel so God can beam down blessings to you unobstructed.
It’s called Evangelical Feng Shui.
dee –
You quoted this from Mohler’s website:
“I am always glad to hear from readers. Write me at mail@albertmohler.com
Well, guess what? That email address doesn’t work! Interesting. You have to go to the Contact page to officially email him. I found this out when I emailed him two days ago about part of his post on the Traditional Baptist Statement Of Salvation, or words to that effect:
http://www.albertmohler.com/2012/06/06/southern-baptists-and-salvation-its-time-to-talk/
Here is his section on “tribalism.” The irony is suffocating:
“Fourth, the last thing Southern Baptists need, now or ever, is the development of theological tribalism among us. We must all repent of the sin of building a tribe when we are called to serve the Kingdom of Christ. The more Calvinistic Southern Baptists, and here I include myself, are deeply theological and passionately concerned to get the Gospel right. The Calvinists I know are transforming their beliefs into an absolute renaissance of missionary commissionings and Gospel church planting. At times, however, Calvinists can be tribal and elitist, more concerned with counting points of doctrine and less concerned with pointing us all to the mission of the Gospel. Such a tribalism is inconsistent with the very beliefs we cherish. This goes to show that we, too, can be inconsistent in faith and practice. Of such tribalism we must all repent.
We should never apologize for attention to doctrine, especially when those doctrines reach the very heart of the Gospel. But tribalism, whether Calvinist or non-Calvinist, is an affront to the Gospel by which we have been saved and to the mission of the Great Commission that is entrusted to us. May God save us from dividing into tribes, even as we gladly and eagerly talk with one another about the doctrines we cherish, and especially when we discuss the doctrines on which we may disagree.”
I guess shielding a member of his tribe and running interference for him as he takes off for Kentucky isn’t tribalism. But he could never see himself as being “an affront to the Gospel.”
Concerning Ray Ortlund’s article: Reacting to a commenter, he said that “sometime” he will write a post on wayward leaders. I’m not holding my breath.
Well, I tried Mohler’s email address again, and this time it worked. Sorry.
Sorry this is a big issue for you. Just a note. Linear comments are great for people show up all the time and keep up with the flow day to day or hour to hour. (And some seem to be here minute by minute.) But this format can be very hard for visitor or casual drop ins to follow. Very hard.
So we have a choice. Cater more to the regulars or to the newbies and/or drop ins? I’ll go with whatever D&D say.
As to the nefarious conspiracy theories about why I changed it to the method I prefer … It was the default setting and I didn’t really notice it until yesterday. I was too busy digging out of the hole created by a typo by me (about 8 hours wasted) and some spectacularly bad information given out by our hosting company. (about 20 to 40 hours wasted). For those who don’t know I/we have been wanting to reload the blog for a while to change out the WordPress theme and clear up some behind the scenes issues that were causing problems. When the database cratered I seized the chance to do all of this.
So the choices were a down time of a few days to bring it back exactly where it was. A couple of more days to switch it out internally. And nearly a week to get it fully back up due to mistakes made by various technical people. Myself included. (And there’s more work to be done behind the scenes but hopefully our visitors will not see that happening.)
Diane,
No, I have not seen that T4G recap session YET, but now that you’ve pointed it out, I will probably address it soon. Given that the audience was predominantly pastors and pastor-wannabees, I find some of the excerpted statements strange. Thanks for bringing it to our attention!
Amazing hypocrisy indeed.
Phillip
Welcome. Although I am not a universalist and do believe in hell(albeit with difficulty on the hell part), I do enjoy the debate and the thinking of those who have a differing perspective on both of these issues.I do not understand why your comment was deleted from Chandler’s site. All of these guys have throngs of admiring wannabes. They should deputize some of them and let them dialogue on their sites.Or are they afraid of ideas and worse, are they too controlling to let others comment?
I, too, like Tim Keller.I may be wrong but I think he marches to a bit of a different drummer.I do not think he is threatened by those who think differently than he. I find what you said amusing “abusive pride– very ironic of a movement defending such a humble theology as “The Doctrines of Grace”.” I believe that this is a result of two issues. 1. They have become convinced that this issue is of primary importance even though the deny it. I believe that, deep down inside, they think that people might not be saved if they do not tiptoe through the Tulip. 2. hey are deeply insecure about their theology and themselves and cannot abide those who might think differently. For those who claim to understand God’s sovereignty, they expend a lot of energy beating people over the head with man’s power instead of letting God do the work. Could it be that they are just bit afraid of their own theology?
tem
Thank you for missing us.
Numo
You made me smile. Lily Tomlin will forever be in my mind as a telephone operator. It’s funny. My elderly mother is still fearful of discussing issues like money on the phone because she thinks people might listen in. She also became agitated when I showed her how to view where she lives on Google.
Anon1
Your comment on the SBC/GBC magisterium was terrific.I always knew that when they got rid of those they called “liberals” they would then turn around and go after each other. It will be fun to have a front row seat in the Coliseum to see who is left standing after this one.
The “Church of the Holy Smackdown.” I’m sensing unlimited marketing opportunities here: win-win-win-win-win.
Mind if we borrow that over at the Steam Tunnel?
SMG
The “Church of the Holy Smackdown”. Oh my!
I’m picturing what that will look like over on the Steam Tunnel. Perhaps Mark Driscoll will figure prominently as a holy cage fighter…
“I think is very gracious to allow people to email him” Ohhhh, please…
“I’ve been a Christian for a long time and have not found true fellowship in a local church”
This has been my experience also.
Ditto here numo!
Sergius
You may use it to your heart’s content so long as i get our usual 10% cut.
Eagle
That is the funniest video. I met a guy in church once that reminded me of the zombie rising from the meth lab. he was the one who told me that babies who die go to hell. That’s it! Burning meth causes hyperNeo Cals.
Eagle
Most Calvinists believe that one must be regenerated in order to become a Christian which involves predestination since God chooses who he will regenerate. The major problem they have with choice is they believe that mankind is so depraved that they are incapable of choosing God. They also believe that such a choice would indicate that mankind has some good in him if he chooses God which means that it is a good work of man and the glory might be given to a man for choosing God. It would diminish God’s glory. Finally, they believe that God’s irresistible grace means that when He decides to save a man, that man could not say no because it would mean that God is less than perfect to effect His grace.
However, there are ways to get around this and I know the NeoCals will chop off my head for saying this. Could God have created each man with the ability to make this choice without coercion? Also, such a choice does not mean that the man has orchestrated his own salvation by merely assenting that God begin a work of regeneration in him. Finally, if a starving dog grabbed a piece of meat from a store, would we say “What a wonderful dog, he was so good to grab that meat? Or, a man is drowning, a guy in a boat comes by and the man swims to the boat and jumps in. Would we say that such a man is meritorious because he jumped in to the boat? I say no since he is heading toward that which will save him but salvation occurs when he gets in the boat (or the dog gets the meat).
Dee now retreats to her secret, barricaded place waiting for the canons to fire and to be told she is not saved or a really stupid Christian.
JeffB
Mohler is saying something that irritates those of us who do not buy his theology. He said:
“The more Calvinistic Southern Baptists, and here I include myself, are deeply theological and passionately concerned to get the Gospel right. The Calvinists I know are transforming their beliefs into an absolute renaissance of missionary commissionings and Gospel church planting.”
The rest of us may be Christians but we are not deeply theological which means they are more theological than everyone else. Arrogant, self-serving and demeaning are a few words that come to mind.
David Cho
Evangelical Feng Shui. Comment of the week! I hope Sergius sees this.
Anon1
“I have always thought that the more we mature spiritually the more the Holy Spirit convicts of sins we never even recognized in ourselves before.” I concur.
Beloved
I believe that most pastors keep above the riff raft since they are above needing to be friends with us. Funny, Jesus chose the fisherman, not the Pharisees.
Dee,
Ah, good point. I think they are indeed victims of their own theology…all its inconsistencies. Like you said they are supposed to believe in God’s sovereignty but they are living as if they have to save (and judge) everybody. And how really do they ever determine if they are one of the elect? Or if they’ve done enough to prove they are in the faith? Unless Jesus comes down Himself and “tattoos” you, it is all subjective, period. And even that would be subjective! The only solution is to see that the Gospel is good “NEWS” which means it is something that has happened and cannot be changed. The only condition to experiencing it is our believing it–faith. How long it takes us in “a far country” to realize that our Father isn’t a tyrant and is waiting for us is according to our “free-will.” The far country is hell…judgment…a crisis. So I too believe in “hell” (just not eternal). God promises that willingly “every knee will bow” and that He will “make all things new.”
BTW, it wasn’t a comment but a review of Chandler’s book, The Explicit Gospel. I respectfully (and many said I was WAY too nice) pointed out the good and then challenged his inconsistencies that actually affirmed UR. It was followed by 30 comments of very profitable and gracious dialogue and I was coherently answering people’s questions. It was the “Most helpful critical review.” Then it disappeared. There were a few negative reviews that were just plain rude and they are still there. Anyway, I assume I was censored.
An example of religious abuse via the doctrine of eternal hell is Chandler’s proposition that “hell is the punishment for belittling of God’s name.” Then he went on to say that to question that hell is eternal is to “belittle God’s name.” What a Catch 22 and a bondage!
Yes, Keller is great and it is easily perceived that he doesn’t have the agenda that the other GC leaders have. At least so far he has resisted the personal temptation and pressure by his colleagues. (I do pray for him.)
“…The major problem they have with choice is they believe that mankind is so depraved that they are incapable of choosing God. They also believe that such a choice would indicate that mankind has some good in him if he chooses God which means that it is a good work of man and the glory might be given to a man for choosing God. It would diminish God’s glory…”
So how pray tell do they get around Romans 2:14-16? Ahhhh.. then we have to find a way NOT around it, but rather, a way to make it support the previous contention of total depravity. Same with being made in the image of God. It can only exist in a rigidly defined sense (theirs), with no variation in parameter. It must then be designed to support the original presupposition.
phillip
If you have copies of the dialogue, or your comments left at Chandler’s site, we will reprint them here. Part of our blog is dedicated to reprinting things that other blogs are afraid of.
Oh yeah! We can all have wonderful, positive churches where no one ever says anything bad…or else! It’s a good church, isn’t it? A real good church…
All “scoffers” are sent to the cornfield. But that’s a good thing! A real good thing!
You are now entering The Twilight Zone….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AkJcFGvNgcY&feature=related
anonymous
I remember that episode. That kid was a good actor! Good clip! Really, really, really good clip. I really, really liked Anthony. 😉
Thanks, I will see if I saved them. Again they were not on Chandler’s site but under my review of his book on Amazon. That is what is confusing, how did he get the whole thing removed from Amazon? (some technicality?) Perhaps it was a fluke but it seems too suspicious to me.
Yeah… I have difficulty following the comments since they switched to the new format a few years back. (Plus I find the place less congenial, though that probably has a lot to do with me and not so much to do with other commenters.)
“Evangelical feng shui” – LOLZ!
Muff –
This is similar to the conundrum I have been thinking about. If we are made in the image of God to begin with (by way of Adam), was what happened (original sin) to separate us from God so overpowering that it wiped out ALL evidence of God that God himself created in us. To me that is like saying that the evil (sinful nature) was more powerful than God (this is true heresy to me).
I do believe that we are spiritually separated from God and cannot fix that condition on our own without the work of the HS and the grace of God unto salvation, but there is too much evidence in scripture that points to looking at God’s creation (including man) as a means to see the evidence for God himself. There are many “good” people who we may never see in heaven, likewise many we might see who we don’t expect sto see. The Neo-Calvinists make total depravity sound like the most evil, vile, demonic condition you could possibly conceive.
I’ll stop here for now . . .
Dee, I have a copy of the review and a portion of the comments and my answers. How should I send it to you? But consider the fact that it is lengthy. I understand if there’s no place for it.
Number one I think it’s an example of (possible) censorship over a conversation that was in my opinion very constructive and productive and perhaps since I did not present any “strawmen” it was getting threatening. I believe that is because I was one of them so I understand how we/they think as a neo-Reformed/Calvinist.
phillip
Do me a favor. Send me those comments and i will call Amazon and ask them to comment.
Numo
There is a post in there. I bet Sergius could have sue fun with that!
Bridget
I, too, wonder what happened to the Imago Dei in the view of Calvinistas. Some YE proponents utilize the total depravity argument to “prove” young earth. He claims that the very world itself is fallen and that means you cannot rely on your observations.Not only are you fallen so your observations are warped but the earth itself is messed up and so what you see is not necessarily what you get (I couldn’t resist).In other words, even you measurements are off.
But, take the issue of beauty. I love the national parks and have visited almost all of them. I can stare for hours at the beauty of the mountains or smile at the moose who surprised me on the path. (I did not like the bear attack but that is for another day). Yet, how can I see God’s beauty if I am totally depraved? No matter how much I read and how much my heart is open to understanding, I still do not get it. Maybe I am not one of the elect intellects….
Phillip
Send it to dee@thewartburgwatch.com. I will call Amazon to see if I can get statement from them but it won’t be until next week.
The review was MY review of Chandler’s book as well as 30 comments…the whole thing was deleted from Amazon. Also I do not have a complete transcript. I only copied some of my answers since I had planned to use them on our blog. I didn’t expect it to disappear. I reconstructed the questions on a few of them. It was under goslovewins as the name.
I am so up for this project. I would like to leave some ‘what ho’s’ & ‘marvellous dear boy’s’ to further vex them with my obvious Englishness.
Welcome back, TWW! I missed you!
Great post. I agree with all you said. Those who find support online are running from the hypocrisy and the pain they’ve experienced in ‘real-world’ churches. The C.S. Lewis quote is so apt. It’s hard to find others who really understand how damaging a hurtful church experience is. In my previous Calvinista church, I only experienced pain and alienation.
Yet here at TWW, there is a supportive community – a safe space – and I’m thankful for it.
JJ
We are glad you contribute to the climate here at TWW.Many here have experienced the pain of being at odds with a local church, including yours truly. The way things are going in the authoritarian crowd, the numbers would continue to rise.
So noted.
SMG
Bridget,
You raise a timely issue on the subject of “good” vs “bad” people in the context of orthodox soteriology and how it’s derived from Holy Writ.
Mayhap it’s not as cut-and-dried as we’d like to believe it is or have been told to believe by others.
“Here is his section on “tribalism.” The irony is suffocating:”
Yes, it is. Not to mention insulting his colleagues that they did not believe what they signed! And affirming that he thinks it lends toward Pelagianism which is heresy. I mean, the guy has nerve.
A great discussion has ensued over this document. SBC Non Calvinists profs and pastors are teaching their view which is NOT the Augustine/Calvin synthesis and are not backing down. It has been a pleasure to watch. Lots of posts on their views at SBCToday going back about a week.
This is how it should be….open debate. Without calling “heretic”!
“Morals are for men, not… GODS…”
— Original Star Trek, second pilot “Where No Man has Gone Before”
“One ringie-dingie…”
Not to mention when pastors tell that hair-raising phony story about shepherds breaking the legs of sheep to keep them from wandering.
In real life, such an inhumane action would cause severe infection and worse… would likely end with the death of said sheep.
Not to mention the infliction of truly severe pain and th consequences of that.
(I know that some old-school vets still don’t prescribe pain meds for injured, arthritic and post-op animals, but thankfully, the more up-to-date practitioners realize that animals *do* experience pain and write scripts accordingly.)
I know I don’t exactly have vet credentials, but as someone who is very invested in learning about rabbit health issues, care and treatment (as well as a longterm chronic pain patient), I just cringe when this “shepherd breaks a leg” thing comes up.
The only “shepherds” who maim their flocks in that manner are those who are lording it over people in abusive, authoritarian churches.
Eagle – high five!
Google Street view scares me! Did you know that it’s a big issue in some Western European countries re. violation of privacy laws? (Should be the case here, too, I think.)
Lily Tomlin’s operator is marvelous.
numo,
Nobody has to have “vet” credentials in order to feel within one’s own heart (or Hebrew “bowels”) that animals feel love, pain, pleasure, and do indeed have little souls.
If I hear one more preacher tell that disgusting folk myth about the efficacy of breaking sheep’s legs for their own “good”, it’ll probably be hard for me to decide whether to laugh, cry, barf, or cuss. — probably all three —