Ray Ortlund, TGC, Versus Stephen Crosby-Who Would You Want as Your Pastor?

To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact, you must give your heart to no one, not even to an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements; lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket- safe, dark, motionless, airless–it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable.” CS Lewis


The Carina Nebula-Hubble

The Calvinista movement is developing, and codifying, an "us versus them" mentality. The “us” includes pastors, elders, apostles, leaders, whatever. The “them “ is all the rest of us. I deplore the gross insensitivity of Calvinista pastors to the issues that have been raised by those hurt in Sovereign Grace Ministries, as well as by other groups and pastors such as Mark Driscoll. This is well demonstrated by the contrast of two posts written by two very, very different pastors. See whose church you would want to attend.
 

In this corner: Ray Ortlund

Recently, Ray Ortlund penned a “sheep who destroy churches” type of post ( a favorite theme of the Neo-Reformed) which was published on The Gospel Coalition (of which he is a board member) website. His church is also a member of Acts 29. I am not sure if he understands how his essay could be viewed as a kick in the teeth to those who have been deeply wounded by churches.

I find it fascinating that his post came out around the same time as the Ambassadors of Reconciliation report, which caused much pain amongst the many who trusted that the “little guy” would finally be recognized. To make matters worse, Ray Ortlund served on the three-man panel here that declared Mahaney is fit to lead SGM.

Instead of being sensitive to the very real problems inherent in this whole process, Ortlund decided to post a “blame the little guy” for the conflicts of the church. He makes light of those who have true grievances and those who have been harmed by those in the ministry. I find this essay insensitive, unloving, and self-serving.

Please read the whole post here.  Don’t even bother going over to Ortlund's blog at The Gospel Coalition website to try and post a comment.  They are "not allowed".

Here is my assessment of How to “Rescue” Your Church in Three Weeks

Week One:
Ortlund attempts to marginalize the person with real concerns, subtly suggesting that they are making up lots of grievances for minor issues.

Week Two:
He says, "Send an email to a few other “concerned” members. Inform them that a groundswell of grievance is surfacing in your church” As complaints come in, form them into a petition to demand an accounting from the leaders of the church. "

Ortlund then imposes the “don’t talk to others “ also known as “gossip”, a favorite rule of the Calvinistas. He also makes light of those members who believe a particular church has a number of serious issues. He appears to be particularly irritated that leaders in such a church might be called to “give an accounting.”

He states, “Be sure to proceed in a way that conforms to your church constitution, so that your petition is procedurally correct.” Worse yet, he marginalizes those who follow the procedures outlined in their church constitution. So, let me get this straight. These guys want carefully written church bylaws and members to sign “covenants” to abide by these “rules” and then he gets testy when they follow the outlined procedure??

Week Three:
Here is where he becomes downright mean-spirited, marginalizing those who have been legitimately hurt by leaders, some of whom may be his buddies. He is giving us a lesson in the spirit of the Calvinistas. They are in charge and you have nothing to add and he wants nothing to do with your woundedness. Don't worry-Jesus cares even if he does not.

He says, “When the growing moral fervor, ill-defined but powerful, reaches critical mass, confront the elders with your demands. Inform them of all the woundedness in the church, which leaves you with no choice but to put your petition forward. Inform them that, for the sake of reconciliation, the concerns of the body must be satisfied.”
 

And in that corner: Dr Stephen Crosby

Compare Ortlund’s post with this one found at Sword of the Kingdom link The New Jezebel – “You’re Just Wounded” As you read this, ask yourself a question. Which of these two men would you want to be your pastor? I have directly quoted a series of excerpts from the full post which I recommend that you read in its entirety. Thank you to our readers who pointed us to this post. My understanding is this post  was discussed on the SGM Survivors blog, giving it a certain poignancy in light of our critique of Ray Ortlund's involvement  with the ill-fated CJ Mahaney affair.

  • An insular and isolated leadership culture is a persistent problem.
  • In doctrine, many of these cultures have the theology and language of servanthood. In practical expression, their leadership culture is one of hierarchy, elitism, secrecy, immunity, and privilege.
  • Some who ardently and aggressively espouse Protestant Reformation doctrine for salvation are thoroughly Romanist in their practice of leadership. Little Protestant Vaticans abound.
  • Immunity from criticism is expected and promoted.
  • In order to maintain this immunity, dissent must be portrayed as disloyalty, and disloyalty must be punished, either overtly by demotion and shunning, or by more subtle methods.
  • One way a leadership immunity culture is maintained is by inordinate and unidirectional emphasis on honor. That is, honor is defined as never disagreeing with, challenging, or confronting a leader on anything he or she teaches, or in his or her behavior
  • There is a new-Jezebel, a new dismissive and condescending magic phrase used to assure leadership insularity: “You are wounded;”
  • Could it not be possible that a fully functioning, normal, healthy adult simply disagrees with you and a particular slant on some topic that as a preacher/teacher/pastor/ leader you might be espousing?
  • For the sake of argument, let’s say the individual is indeed wounded. So what? What has that got to do the merits of the objection they might be bringing?
  • What if you, as the “leader” or “spiritual father” of the group are yourself, responsible for the wounding of the those you are accusing of being wounded!
  • Everyone I have ever heard teach on that topic has himself, had a problem with authority.
  • When an individual harps on a topic, he or she has a problem with that topic in his/her own lives.
  • In some cases, just being female is enough to dismiss you.

Copyright 2012, Dr. Stephen R. Crosby, www.swordofthekingdom.com. Permission is granted to copy, forward, or distribute this article for non-commercial use only, as long as this copyright byline, in totality, is maintained in all duplications, copies, and link references.

Here is a piece of advice for Calvinista pastors. Try, just a little harder, to understand and love those in pain in your churches. You see, they are showing up on our blog, lots and lots of them.  Love for the brethren – what an profound idea!

Lydia's CornerDaniel 2:24-3:30 1 Peter 4:7-5:14 Psalm 119:81-96 Proverbs 28:15-16

Comments

Ray Ortlund, TGC, Versus Stephen Crosby-Who Would You Want as Your Pastor? — 137 Comments

  1. JeffB: Good grief. One of the Youtube comments reflects my views exactly. “Just from the images…who do you think is being worshipped here?”

    Check out their uber-manly cinematic announcements, like something out of an action movie. “JOIN US THIS SUMMER. ONE. LAST. TIME.”

    HHGGGNNNNNNNGGHHH!!

  2. JeffB: Good grief. One of the youtube comments mirrors my thoughts exactly. “Just from the images…who do you think is being worshiped here?”

    Also, check out the uber-manly announcements, with storm clouds and cinematic music. “JOIN US THIS SUMMER. ONE. LAST. TIME.” HHHGGGNNNNGGGHH!!!!

  3. JeffB – I watched the video. I felt like I was watching the opening credits to Hellboy!! That music was kinda creepy.

    Ortlund – I have never felt so insulted as I was when I read his 3 Weeks message. who does he think he is??? Oh wait, I know. What a perfect example of NOT showing God’s love & compassion.

    Unbelievable

  4. Glory of God pouring down on them ‘n all. Or perhaps pixie dust. Or maybe it’s 2 teen agers in the scaffolding above wiggling flashlights and spinkling handfulls of gold glitter from a carboard box. Whatever it takes.

  5. Ortlund’s message can be summed up quite simply. “Wounded by the church? Shut up and move on. The pastors are more important than your distress.”

  6. Ortlund then imposes the “don’t talk to others “ also known as “gossip”, a favorite rule of the Calvinistas. He also makes light of those members who believe a particular church has a number of serious issues. He appears to be particularly irritated that leaders in such a church might be called to “give an accounting.”

    Ortlund is so critical of conversation aka gossip, yet what do you call making light of members who have serious issues? What do you call it when a special board meeting is called and a member who has dared speak out aka gossip, is brought before such board for disciplinary action where their so called sins are discussed for all to hear? Mind boggling isn’t it?

  7. The problem is that those who speak out are being listened to and believed. Rightfully so. But big business in most cases aka the church, the ministers, are being toppled. They know they may be next.

  8. And people wonder why committed Christians (like me) have run away from institutional churcianity like their hair was on fire. These supposed “pastors” are drunk with power, and consumed with their own self-aggrandizement.

    And while these proud yahoos strut and preen before one another, Jesus is relegated to a back room and a hard chair.

    Disgusting.

  9. Dee thank you for posting. Is that a picture of Wartburg Castle in the link you provided? Such a perverse concept of authority and leadership.A great quote about “little Protestant Vaticans”.

    I liked this comment Crosby made:

    The question to ask is not “where should I go to church”, but “in whose hearts can I be safe as we follow Jesus together.” The issue is finding healthy people, not a “place to go.” Pray the Lord leads you to healthy people. They are out there, and perhaps in some of the places we might least expect.

    JeffB, there’s some good comments against that YouTube clip in which they all looked like little popes to me (with apologies to the current pope).

  10. WOW — this Steven Crosby wastes no time or words! He describes “an insular and isolated leadership culture”, which

    “…unload[s] [their] self-perceived, vital profundities on an eternally subordinate class of unenlightened and psychologically co-dependent “children” and call it “spiritual fathering” . . . it is not spiritual fathering. It is an unhealthy need to be needed. It is an addictive need for a compliant and unquestioning audience. Sacrificing other people’s resources (souls, time, finances, energy) on the altar of personal drive, ego, and ambition for “ministry greatness” and financial security, is not spiritual fathering. It is pimping souls.”

  11. The real question is, why even have a “pastor”?

    How biblical is the pastor centric model of leadership where everything good or bad about a church hinges on THE PASTOR? I ask people: who was the pastor of the Galatian church? How about the Corinthian church? Who was the senior pastor there? The Ephesian church? The Antioch church? The Philadelphian church? Can you name a single “senior pastor” in the entire Bible?

    Of course the question is greeted with blank looks. But before you can finish saying the name of any given church, the senior pastor’s name just rolls out of their tongue. In fact, Grace Community Church is longer called Grace Community Church because it’s become a common name. People just call it John MacArthur’s church and nobody bats an eye even thought is reeks of blatant blasphemy.

    The very notion of the clergy/laity divide is debatable as well. Isn’t every believer a priest? My friend Keith (who is also in my home church) has a blog about house churches. These two entries about leadership might be of interest to you.

    THE DISCIPLES ON LEADERSHIP AND HIERARCHY

    WHAT IS A NEW TESTAMENT MODEL OF CHURCH LEADERSHIP?

    I’ve been a part of a home church fellowship for a little over two years now. There is no paid staff, and because we don’t have a building, every penny collected goes to the poor. Because the church does not have The Pastor to look to for leadership, it is up to each individual to step up to the plate and take the initiative. It’s been amazing see what people can do free of trappings of institutional church and authority.

  12. The video is creepy indeed. The conference is in its 8th year, and according to the video, “thousands have gathered from 47 states and 12 countries.”

    I would like to know which 3 states have not soiled themselves. I’m so moving there.

  13. Honest question here, because I certainly ain’t a Calvinista.

    What happens when a neo-Reformed constituency within a non-Reformed church starts to have issues with the way that things are done?

    I’ve been in precisely this situation before, and it is not pretty.

    In one case, despite all attempts by the church leadership to come to some resolution, there was no resolution to be had in the eyes of the neo-Reformed group. In the end many of them left, but not without causing scars in the church.

    Ultimately it would have been better if they had left earlier.

    And, in the same vein, I think that many times it would be better if people who find themselves in a situation with which they don’t agree (even if it’s not abusive) in a church would try for a bit but eventually, gracefully leave.

    I have, in my life, seen two churches go through such troubles (one the Reformed issue described above, the other just generally authoritarian leadership with no particular theological bent). In each case some people hung on way too long and were quite hurt. In each case, as well, some people left the situation early on and, despite being labelled as quitters by all sides, have been shown to have made the best choice.

    My feeling is this… if the church is Reformed and you don’t like it, then you shouldn’t be there. If the church is not Reformed and you don’t like it, then you shouldn’t be there. If the church changes around you then you have a choice to change too or to leave quickly and with grace.

    If the change is one that is in God’s will (and let’s recall that His will can be quite broad on many things that we like to argue about) then it’s going to move ahead with or without you. If it is not, then it’s going to fail with or without you.

    And, at the first whiff of abuse, leave. It’s really not worth it. You’re not going to fix anything, and the old adage of fighting with pigs in the mud applies.

    Like I said, I’ve gone through this twice in my life now. And my crap-detector is currently quite well-calibrated and is firmly attached to a get-out-of-Dodge hair trigger.

  14. David C,

    You bring up an interesting question. Here are my guesses:

    Alaska

    Hawaii

    Wyoming or Montana

  15. Remember that Ortlund’s target audience for his blog are pastors and wannabe pastors.

    And we wonder why some accuse the YRR crowd of being arrogant?

  16. E.G. said:

    “Like I said, I’ve gone through this twice in my life now. And my crap-detector is currently quite well-calibrated and is firmly attached to a get-out-of-Dodge hair trigger.”

    May I use that in a signature line? LOL!

    In all seriousness, I totally understand and relate. All too well, unfortunately.

  17. The two examples you give remind me of those who are a pretenders, and those who KNOW THE SHEPHERD OF THE SHEEP.

  18. The spirit of narcissism…….I do not know if these men will come to a period of reconciliation unless by serious intervention by the Lord. This stuff is serious when you have men who can’t by any means come to a place of realizing they are in wrong. This will continue until the church runs into the ground.

    Narcissists rely on people around them to feed that ego and continually they will persecute those around them that do not comply. Eventually the church they “lead” will be just be an empty shell not producing anything that is glorifying to God. Remember even some of the early churches were left by God because they did heed the warnings and their candlesticks were removed. The Lord always keeps a remnant.

  19. One more comment on the video –

    My “favorite” part is “Four Incredible Days – One Incomparable Savior”

    P.T. Barnum couldn’t do better.

  20. Wow, Crosby’s article so accurately articulated what I’ve experienced at Mars Hill. Thanks for sharing, his words really bring me comfort. As someone with a sociology degree, my mind was going crazy while attending MH because I saw way too much that had really nothing to do with faith and everything to do with power/control. I especially liked the line that you highlighted: “Some who ardently and aggressively espouse Protestant Reformation doctrine for salvation are thoroughly Romanist in their practice of leadership. Little Protestant Vaticans abound.” “Catholic guilt” is a common expression but having been raised Catholic and then later attending MH, I felt far more guilt and shame at MH. And I believe, the little protestant vaticans are far more dangerous than the real Vatican.

  21. Can anyone explain to me the difference between a Calvinist and a “calvinista?” Is the difference theological? Attitude? Maturity/security level? All of/any combination of the above? Or are they one and the same? What all does the term “calvinista” imply?

  22. Jan,

    Calvinista is a term that was coined here at TWW when we began blogging. We wanted to come up with a way to distinguish between normal Calvinists and Calvinists on steroids.

    Here is our definition in the TWW “Glossary of Terms”:

    Calvinista: These are Calvinists gone wild. They are self-important, self-assured, and absolutely convinced that they know what the Bible says on every subject. They also believe anyone who doesn’t agree with them is utterly wrong. They spend lots of time running around to conferences, getting together with other guys (women have no place in this discussion) who also agree with them 100%. In fact, they spend more time speaking at conferences than pastoring their churches.

  23. Ahhh ok. Never saw the glossary of terms. 🙂 Thanks. So they are not necessarily different theologically than Calvinists (as in hyper-Calvinists)? It is more of an attitude thing?

  24. JeffB,

    Thanks for sharing that Resolved trailer. I had previously seen it and had the same reaction as our commenters. I believe it deserves it’s own post. 🙂

  25. The promo is creepy. So we have CJ at the end with his hand raised standing before thousands. Can you say “staged for effect”? Still cracks me up that Mohler is tight with an “Apostle of the People of Destiny. I mean, what a cultic name and title! McArthur has simply sold out. He did not use to be this silly and obvious.

    What is with the mystical background? specially anointed fairy dust?

  26. I have a question that is only loosely related to the topic. I recall someone saying somewhere something about Mahaney and Driscoll having some sort of relationship. (?)

    I was wondering about the by laws change/pastors firing at Mars Hill and whether that happened before Driscoll developed a relationship with Mahaney or after.

    Also, does anyone know what the nature of the Driscoll/Mahaney relationship is/was? Did Driscoll come under Mahaney’s discipleship/influence or was it something more passing than that? How tight are these two, or are they tight at all?

  27. I don’t know how relevant it is, but according to Wikipedia Mark Driscoll considers himself a 4-point Calvinist with a somewhat different view of election (perhaps when contrasted with people such as C J Mahaney?).

  28. Okay, before I comment on the post or read the other comments, I have to comment on the video JeffB linked to – the following quote stood out (I don’t know who the speaker is – I’m not familiar with most of these guys).

    “We live by the Scriptures.
    We know
    Jesus by the Scriptures.
    We are
    entirely dependent on the Scriptures.
    We must be rescued. And we’re
    only gonna be rescued by the Scriptures.

    Does anyone else see the idolatry in this? I thought we knew Jesus through relationship with Him. I thought we depended on God. I thought we were rescued by Jesus…..

  29. anonymous,

    You have asked an important question regarding when the relationship between Mark Driscoll and C.J. Mahaney was established.

    Thanks to the internet, I believe we can document with some degree of accuracy when they became friends. Mark Driscoll delivered a sermon on November 4, 2007 called The Rebels Guide to Joy in Humility.

    Justin Taylor included the manuscript of this message in a blog called Driscoll’s Confession on Pride.

    Here is an excerpt of what Driscoll said:

    “I’m a guy who is pretty busted up over this personally and it really came to my attention last December just in time for Christmas. The critics really brought me a lot of kind gifts of opposition and hatred and animosity. Merry Christmas. And some of those most vocal and nasty critics were Christians – some of them prominent Christians. So I was getting ready to fire back (my usual tactics). They hit you, you hit them twice and then blog about your victory. Which I don’t have any verses for and don’t say it was a good idea. But it had been a pattern in my life until a man named C.J. Mahaney called.

    I’d always considered humility to be cowardice and a compromise. In the name of humility you give up biblical conviction and passion and the willingness to contend for the faith (Jude 3) and to fight false teaching. What he was describing was orthodoxy in belief and humility in attitude and that those two together are really what God desires. And so it got me thinking and studying and praying through pride and humility and repenting and learning and growing. So I would start by saying that I thank my dear friend C.J. Mahaney for his ongoing friendship and the kindness he has extended to me and the things I’ve been able to learn through his instruction.

    Josh Harris wrote about their (Mahaney and Driscoll’s) friendship on November 9, 2007 in a post called Learning from Mark Driscoll. Josh shared the following:

    “In the past year or so I’ve been encouraged to see a friendship develop between Mark and C.J. Mahaney. I’ve benefited so much from C.J.’s investment in me; I knew only good things could come from their interaction with each other. So this past week when I heard that Mark had preached on humility during his series in Philippians and referenced C.J.’s influence, I wanted to hear it for myself. I wasn’t surprised by the kind words Mark had for C.J. but what caught me off guard was the very humble and specific confession that Mark made to his church.”

    Based on this evidence, it sounds like Mahaney and Driscoll became friends BEFORE the by-laws were changed (which I believe occurred in 2007).

  30. Jeannette Altes,

    I have watched the Resolved trailer, and the individual you quoted is Al Mohler, President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, the SBC’s flagship seminary. I plan to focus on this video in an upcoming post.

  31. Hoo boy — so much pus is oozing from infected churches!!

    I actually feel sorry for the uber-authoritarians — one day they are going to have to answer to the Great Shepherd of the Sheep for the way they have treated His flock. I wonder when they last read Ezekiel 34? meanwhile, God is very close to the broken-hearted.

    All the strange lights and pixie dust on that video? Simple, we are witnessing the apotheosis of these teachers — the next step will be to see them taken up to heaven in Elijah’s fiery chariot! (and if my tongue were any further in my cheek I would have a hole in my face) Something that struck me about that video (apart from the weird graphics and music) — why does Calvinista teaching always go straight into guilt trip mode? Listen to some of these guys for too long and you’ll be asking them to slit your wrists for you; even when they talk about God’s grace they manage to make it sound condemnatory.

    I am halfway through Julia Duin’s book, and seeing some of those patterns emerge is almost freaking me. The seeds are sown and the evils emerge. Godly leaders who are true shepherds are both rare and precious.

  32. Dee and Deb –

    You might consider adding “hyper-authoritarian” to your Calvinista description.

  33. What do you call it when a special board meeting is called and a member who has dared speak out aka gossip, is brought before such board for disciplinary action where their so called sins are discussed for all to hear? — Debbie Kaufman

    Enlightened Self-Criticism before Party Commissars, of course.

    Minus the subsequent Liquidation(TM).

  34. Bridget2,

    Great point! We wrote that definition over three years ago, and we have learned so much since then!

    I am reminded of a couple of posts I wrote about during our first month of blogging. Here they are since most of you weren’t around then.

    The Shepherding Movement – Reformed, Revamped, Reee-diculous!

    The Shepherding Movement – Reformed, Revamped, Reee-diculous! Part Two

    It’s eerie going back and reading these post now after all that has happened, especially with Mahaney.

  35. These supposed “pastors” are drunk with power, and consumed with their own self-aggrandizement.

    And while these proud yahoos strut and preen before one another, Jesus is relegated to a back room and a hard chair. — John Robinson

    Jesus is more likely to show up at a Furry Con or Brony Meet than at those churches. He has a track record of snubbing the Uber-Godly and hanging out with messed-up losers.

  36. “I don’t know how relevant it is, but according to Wikipedia Mark Driscoll considers himself a 4-point Calvinist with a somewhat different view of election (perhaps when contrasted with people such as C J Mahaney?).”

    From what I can gather reading around the blogs, the bar for points is changing. Now you can be a 3 pt and be considered a Calvinist. I think they wanted to widen the tent for numbers purposes. In fact, I have seen them tell people they are Calvinists who aren’t because they agree with 3 out of the 5.

    None of it is really about Calvinism. It is about authority, power, influence, control and having lots of followers. Calvinism is just a convenient vehicle because it is based on authoritarianism. It is inherent in his system.

    But the seeker leaders are into power, control, influence, etc, too. They just use a different vehicle.

  37. Calvinistas are hyper-Calvinists, five-pointers and mostly double predestinarians. They are authoritarian, generally masculinsts and patriarchists. to them, nothing happens that is not the WILL OF GOD, including calamities that come about because someone, somewhere sinned. But that sin is in God’s grand plan, because there is no such thing as free will except in the imagination of non-Christians (all those who are not Calvinsts). God wrote his plan and He cannot deviate from it, because it is His sovereign will.

    If you believe that God responds to prayer, you will be called an “open theist”. which is far worse to them than being a liberal.

  38. Did anyone else think that trailer looked like it could have been for a Harry Potter movie with the grey/blue clouds on black background and fiery magical letters? And given the constant ‘by the scripture’ refrain, maybe this potential eight book could be Harry Potter and the Conference of the Scriptures?

  39. That vid: oh fer cryin’ out loud!!!

    It was kind of amusing until the end, with that shot of CJ looking over the crowd, like Fearless Leader (in Rocky & Bulwinkle, but I’m also thinking of photos of certain fascist leaders…).

    The “mystical” graphics made me think of Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard’s horrible sci-fi novels…

  40. Did anyone else think that trailer looked like it could have been for a Harry Potter movie…

    Except that the person who would appear out of the clouds is Voldemort. (Not joking.)

  41. I couldn’t say it better, so I’ll quote:

    “…we could have been a burden to you, but we were gentle among you, like a mother caring for her little children. We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you not only the gospel of God, but our lives as well, because you had become so dear to us! Surely you remember, brothers, our toil and hardship; we worked night and day in order not to be a burden to anyone while we preached the Gospel of God to you….” I Thes. 2:6-9

    Sounds like a good way to “do ministry” doesn’t it?

  42. That was why I raised the point about Driscoll – unlike the rest of the neo-Reformed, he does not appear (according to Wikipedia anyway) to be double predestinarian.

  43. Did anyone else notice that the little boxed “R” they used in the video looks very much like the one used for R-rated movies? How cute. All that was missing was a voiceover from the “In a world where _____” guy.

  44. Sallie: Go ahead! 🙂

    Deb: Calvinistas… I’ve met plenty of women who could be described as such as well.

    anon1: Forget the points… I just tell people that I’m an open theist, crypto-anabaptist, amillenialist… and then watch them try to figure it out. It can be amusing.

  45. Kolya: In the past when I would listen to Drisoll podcasts I’d notice that he’d often let his theological guard down and would come across sounding pretty Arminian. Lots of choice language, etc. I’m sure that he’d get a call from Johnny Mac the next day, though.

  46. Ortlund or Crosby? That’s my choice? Ugh.

    Glad I have the good fortune to not be “under” either man’s ministry…

  47. I have a feeling that being a strong complementarian trumps even Calvinism. As long as Driscoll uses a few key phrases, he can get away with a lot, they’d just put it down to the fact that he’s not as well educated in theology. (Isn’t his degree in media, or communication or something?) What they get from him is the proper hero-worship, and that’s what it’s really all about.

  48. Dee,

    Please note the comment and link left on Ortland’s post by Team Pyro blogger Frank Turk. It is a good example of the us/them mindset that you describe so often here on TWW.

  49. Wow. The light shines down from above, gold flecks float through the air, followed by big dramatic strings and (yes, you’re right) a Harry-Potter like sequence? It’s just a conference, folks, not a major motion picture release. I wonder if they noticed the light was shining on them and not on their Bibles. Then again, maybe they were being brutally honest.

  50. Also, did anyone else notice that in the video they moved straight from talking about sanctification to talking about getting saved like they were the same thing? Score another one for Paul Dohse.

  51. Ooh, I’ve got one! I’ve called it ‘How to “lead” your church in three weeks’:

    WEEK ONE

    Walk into church on Sunday and think about how well you are subduing your flock, how joyfully they submit to your authority, and how your five-year plan is on track: mega-church, seminary, three-books-published, internationally-visited blog, popular conference speaker. Take note of those attendees who are not yet official members. Take note of members who think too independently. Take note of those members who do not adhere to all your theological views and might express these differences. Take note of the people who do not revere your every word and who read unsanctioned so-called ‘Christian’ authors.

    Have your weekly coffee morning with the eager young pastoral intern (male, of course) who is learning from you about ministry. Discuss how important it is that churches have unity, how essential it is that the church stays faithful to scripture, and how necessary it is that members are not allowed to sow dissention. Patronisingly ask him to ‘keep you accountable’ so that you don’t stray from biblical standards.

    Respond to an email from a disgruntled church member, asking them to list specific examples (including dates and times) of the supposed ‘hurt’ they have experienced. They would also need two witnesses to verify their experience. Blind carbon copy this email correspondence to the eager young intern and your elders.

    WEEK TWO

    Respond to another email from the concerned and ‘hurt’ church member. Tell them that you’re concerned about their grievances, and are saddened to hear about their loss of confidence in you as their leader. Tell them, though, that this list of concerns is worryingly detailed and suggests a vindictive spirit. Tell them to be aware that unfounded charges against you, a pastor, are not only dangerous and divisive, they are sinful and slanderous. Tell them you’re going to pray about this and will ask God to show you if there’s any deceitfulness in your heart. Tell them you’ll get back to them and let them know if they have been hurt or if any spiritual damage has been done.

    Arrange to meet with the elders (and the eager intern) to discuss the church’s direction. Mention that you’ve received another troublesome email. Explain the content of the message and show how you have been completely biblical and faithful in all your dealings with this member. Share how concerned you are for this member’s walk with the Lord, because slander is a serious sin. Then share your own concerns about this member’s personal history, and issues which this member has brought up to you during pastoral counselling. In order for your elders to keep you accountable, it is necessary that they have the full details about your (consistently ‘biblical’) actions as well as that information that the member has shared with you in confidence. Nod in sombre agreement when your elders confirm that you have been consistently faithful in your dealings with this member.

    Send a brief email to the member, co-authored with your elders, stating how you value reconciliation and unity. Tell them, however, that neither you nor God can condone sinful slander and that the member will need to be church-disciplined. Tell them that this is for their ultimate good so that they might learn to submit, repent of their divisiveness, and be restored to unity.

    WEEK THREE

    Having let the elders do your dirty work, watch in satisfaction as the member discovers that the eager young intern knows details which they have only shared with you, and is shunned within the church body.

    On Sunday preach a fiery sermon to your sheep on submitting to the authorities God has placed in their lives, telling them how when a church is moving in the direction God has called it to, there is bound to be a winnowing, a separation of wheat from the chaff. Tell the sheep that you love leading this body of believers whose foundation rests on the undying truth of scripture, not the people-pleasing pandering that goes on elsewhere. Tell them that for unity to be maintained, they need to constantly be on guard lest they fall into petty criticisms of those leaders God has placed over them.

    Whatever happens from this point on, you have won. You have changed the subject in your church from Jesus to yourself. Your church – because it is *your* church – will be even stronger without these troublesome elements. The ‘hurt’ member will probably need years to recover and might turn away from church completely. And if, before leaving, they infected others with their toxic slander, don’t worry. You know how to deal with that. It only takes three weeks.

  52. I’m happy to see my friend Steve Crosby’s article highlighted in this post. I just wanted to mention that he is not a pastor of any church, although he was in the past, so his understanding of how things operate in the traditional institutional church setting comes from firsthand knowledge. If you want a better understanding of his ministry, you can read his “Personal Bio” page at the website referenced in the article above. (BrianD 12:26 am – nobody is “under” Steve or his ministry. He would be repulsed by the idea that anyone would view him as exercising authority over any other believer. That’s not where he’s coming from at all.)

  53. JJ
    Wow! I wish I had been that creative in my post. What you said is spot on and it happens a lot these days. I loved the inclusion of the eager young pastor intern who is being mentored by the older, more “wise” and “humble” leader. You showed how easy it is to take the focus of the leader and to “blame” the member who expressed concern. I am sure that Ortlund is now writing a missive on “character assassination” another “go to” word of thin-skinned preachers who cannot and will not take constructive criticism.

  54. Moniker
    If Crosby were a pastor, I would definitely refer folks to his church. From what I can tell, the little guy would be treated like a valuable member of the church. I would not step foot in Ortlund’s church. I would be targeted within minutes.

  55. “Also, did anyone else notice that in the video they moved straight from talking about sanctification to talking about getting saved like they were the same thing?”

    Way to go, Hester. You are paying attention. I wish more were. This is very subtle but very false teaching that keeps people from living a redeemed life. They can’t. They are stuck in “totally depraved” and “total inability” instead of being Born Again. You see, if people realize that they are redeemed and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit are “walking in the light” to please God (yes you can do that) then they won’t need these guys. And that scares the celebs more than anything.

  56. Definitely, Dee! He is an “elder” to many – an older brother who loves, teaches, encourages, and truly cares for others.

  57. “anon1: Forget the points… I just tell people that I’m an open theist, crypto-anabaptist, amillenialist… and then watch them try to figure it out. It can be amusing.”

    Hee Hee. I have a friend who worked at SBTS while finishing his PhD. He got so very sick of being asked if he was a Calvinist and it became obvious he was going no where there because he could not declare “Calvinism” so he decided to just be honest. He told people, No, I am a Jesusist. I don’t think they found it amusing. He got laid off back before they spent millions on campus beautification for their anniversary celebrations.

    Nevermind the guy with the mortgage and kids. We must beautify the campus for our image.

  58. Dee,

    Thanks for posting this. My pick is definitely NOT Ray Ortlund. I had no idea who he even was (no offense, Ray, if you are reading) until the Mahaney thing. I quickly figured out who Ray was when I read this-

    http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/rayortlund/?s=slander+gossip

    Besides, I would be under constant discipline for too many sinful questions if Ray were my pastor. And I could never measure up to the proper submissive wife model his wife would no doubt teach.

    As fas as the sensational summer blockbuster movie trailer is concerned…I was rather liking the pretty pink bubbles floating upward…the mystical, ethereal music…the heavenly beams of light radiating behind their faces…as if they were in heaven speaking down to us-yep–it was putting me in a daze…turning my brain to mush (as this comment will show) and I was gettin’ all mystical and dreamy-eyed…thinking about pink ponies and unicorns and how nice it would be to lay down in some lavendar colored grass…with a blue Pepsi…

    Then they had to go and ruin it all with the crashing letters–like gladiators or jousting. grrrr. And that horrid music with it-just ruined my mood. Then- I got to thinking–Four Incredible Days. FOUR. wow…

    But then I thought, well-what it they weren’t all incredible? What if only 1 day was incredible…or no days…or 3 days. That made me sad, because I am sure I could not get my money back for having less than incredible days. I don’t want to put myself through having less than incredible days. That would not be very nice. So I thought…

    I know- I think I will spend the conference fee on four incredible outfits. Yeah! That’s what I’ll do…and when I get home and try them on again and find I don’t look as incredible in them as the sales clerk told me I did…I can take them back and get my money back. Yipppeeeeee.

    My husband said he would attend the conference–even pay triple the fee (to hear the gospel) if each of the main speakers would furnish their tax returns for the last five years, as well as reveal church-provided perks and benefits. What would be revealed might be incredible.

  59. God wrote his plan and He cannot deviate from it, because it is His sovereign will. — Arce

    More like God cannot deviate from predestined plan because even God is only another puppet of Utter Predestination. Eh, Kismet.

    (My writing partner calls this “Socratic Atheism” — if God is completely controlled by Predestination, God is not God, Predestination is, so why are you worshipping God instead of Predestination? Wait a minute, Calvinistas are…)

  60. “This is a conference that is serious about God. It is serious about sin and it is serious about committment. This conference is really about the gospel. It is about a great God and it is about OUR opportunity to introduce you to a great God in a way that WE have experienced him and that WE know in a deep and intimate way…”

    Read that a few times and you begin to believe that these guys really are closer to God! What chaputz to say that they know God in a deep and intimate way and are available for a fee to introduce the rest us to this great God!

  61. Hester @ 6:51 am –

    What got me was the ending statement of –

    “Salvation is all of grace from start to finish.” CJ Mahaney

    All I can say is CJ must still be “being” saved. I was not aware that there was a beginning and an end to salvation. All the men at this conference must agree with this theologically as it became the last words that were spoken on the video . . . the take away words.

  62. What you said is spot on and it happens a lot these days. I loved the inclusion of the eager young pastor intern who is being mentored by the older, more “wise” and “humble” leader. — Dee

    You mean the hand-picked protege/enforcer with the “Pastorjugend” armband and stars in his eyes?

  63. Hester –

    I get it! If we go to the conference they will teach us how to complete our salvation. God must need some help getting us to heaven . . . oh, but that would mean that Jesus didn’t do a complete work (head scratch). Someone (CJ?) is still stuck on the cross.

    Jesus, on the other hand, is in heaven, seated on a throne, at the right hand of God, interceding on our behalf!

  64. Diane

    That video was one of the silliest, most over the top productions for a relatively low profile conference that I have seen. These guys have an overblown perspective of themselves so that it seems normal to pretend that they are really the little band of conquerors in Lord of the Rings. They are not and end up being a parody without understanding that they seem like the are an SNL skit on conferences. Whoever is in charge of these productions is either a true believer or is getting good money for this nonsense.

  65. Dee,

    Yep.

    More Ortlund stuff-

    I took a listen to this and made it through both parts…but it was a struggle. I could not imagine paying incredible outfit money to sit in the upcoming T4$ women’s conference listening to more of this.

    http://www.sbts.edu/resources/conferences/t4g-2012/t4g-ministry-wives-panel-discussion-part-1/

    http://www.sbts.edu/resources/conferences/t4g-2012/t4g-ministry-wives-panel-discussion-part-2/

    http://itg.immanuelnashville.com/

  66. Dee:

    Oh how I wish folks would run from pastors like Ray Ortlund. What a perversion of how church leaders are not to be held accountable.

  67. When I read Ortlund’s full post over at his blog yesterday, I noticed that Dr. Crosby himself had posted the latest comment. It was gentle and worthy of a response.

    Today I see that his comment has been deleted and comments are now closed. *sigh*

  68. Mot,

    I believe some people are running from hyper-authoritarian pastors, just not enough of them.

  69. Eagle:

    These folks can not stand being questioned. They view themselves as authorities right along the level of being like a god.

    Why people put up with this I do not understand.

  70. Hello Dee & Deb,

    Wanted you to know that I read with great interest your post yesterday regarding the Ortlund/Crosby blogs. I took the opportunity to post a comment on Ortlund’s blog. It was on his site for most of yesterday but was removed sometime overnight and the comments are now closed. I anticipated this would happen so just prior to submitting my comments I saved them.

    Here’s what I had put as my comment on Ortlund’s blog but has now been removed:

    I’m confused. The church described here has a petition process established in its constitution so as to provide a vehicle for congregants to challenge, when necessary, the leadership. This would seem to me to be a protection for the leadership so that they don’t get so isolated that they become islands unto themselves or perceptibly (to themselves) immune to impropriety or sin. The individual described here submits a document via the aforementioned protocols and the author of this post criticizes them for it?

    I would offer that too much of our leadership these days has set themselves apart from their congregations and are resistant to questions or concerns. Should we foster an environment where the daily naysayers and critics are given unabated access to the ears of the pastor? Not necessarily, but we need to remember that pastors are fallible humans like the rest of us and should have systems in place to protect them against their own depravity and failings.

    In keeping with this thought, the link below gives a contrary view of what the author wrote above.

    http://swordofthekingdom.com/2012/05/18/the-new-jezebel-youre-just-wounded/.

    I’m trying to figure out what was so inflammatory in what I wrote that it would need to be deleted. Apparently Mr. Ortlund doesn’t like to be challenged. If the link was inappropriate they could’ve simply deleted the link.

    David

  71. JJ, your reply @ 6:51 was really insightful.

    “Tell them you’ll get back to them and let them know if they have been hurt or if any spiritual damage has been done.”

    …sigh.

  72. “All I can say is CJ must still be “being” saved.”

    Bridget2, that explains a lot. 😉

  73. “This is a conference that is serious about God. It is serious about sin and it is serious about committment. This conference is really about the gospel. It is about a great God and it is about OUR opportunity to introduce you to a great God in a way that WE have experienced him and that WE know in a deep and intimate way…”

    Read that a few times and you begin to believe that these guys really are closer to God! What chaputz to say that they know God in a deep and intimate way and are available for a fee to introduce the rest us to this great God!”

    Heather…..you have nailed it.

    Calling Mr. Tetzel to pay your conference indulgences

  74. Sallie, thank you so much for the link to the John Zens post. I can’t believe how hard it is for me to wrap my head around the reality of the new covenant. I’ve been a Christian most of my life, and only now is it starting to sink in.

    It is the best news in the world.

  75. Deb,

    Thanks for posting the shepherding articles. I just finished them and this quote from CJ from your part 2 is interesting:

    “The biblical doctrine of sin reminds us that indwelling sin remains, and it is active, hostile to grace, and hostile to the pursuit of godliness,” according to C.J. Mahaney. He goes on to explain that as we mature in our faith, we need the doctrine of sin more, not less, in our lives. He continues, “On our own, you and I will never develop a competency for recognizing our sin. We’ll always need help. . . . Others can exhort you, encourage you, and correct you. They are a gift from God in your battle against sin. And you never grow out of this need. Never.”

    Didn’t AoR find some things wrong with CJ’s doctrine of sin? I did not read the report myself. I thought I had read that blame was being placed on how pastors applied his doctrine of sin…not the doctrine itself. I could be wrong and maybe CJ has repented of this errant teaching-if so I have not read that.

    Anyway, it sounds like this is a forever thing (bad news for those who submit to men like him) but who knows, CJ does change his mind quickly, as he admits. Maybe never doesn’t mean never. Did CJ decide this was no longer a gift from God?

    Like the saying goes, like attracts like. By showcasing CJ at the end of the wannabe summer blockbuster movie trailer, JM is indicating his approval…just like many of the T$Gers did in their sermons when they specifically mentioned CJ (and none of the other presenters) in their sermons. They are comfortable with him and his doctrines…message being- why aren’t you? What’s wrong with you?

  76. R B D:  “We live by the scriptures.”
    The Scriptures:  If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Gal 5:25

  77. RBD “We know Jesus by the scriptures”
    The Scriptures: “Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.” II Cor 5:16

  78. Dave A A –

    The lack of teaching on, and acknowledgement of, the Holy Spirit and His power in our lives really bothers me about the RBDs. The Holy Spirit is God, yet they don’t teach of the power He affords the believer. With CJ, especially, it’s as if he thinks his brothers (only certain ones though) should be the Holy Spirit in his life.

  79. So Jan asked about the difference between a Calvinist and a Calvinista. I know Dee and Deb have their official definition. But I’ve been thinking about this question, and came up with some analogies that might help with descriptions.

    If you’re familiar with the term *simulacra* then the Calvinist is the original – – detailed, complex, colored photograph – – and a Calvinista is the simulacra: a copy of a copy of a copy and etc so far away from the original that all the nuance is leeched out and all that’s left is a fuzzy black and white outline of what originally was there.

    Or, if you’ve tried to extend the life of a [Calvinist] tea bag, by about the third or fourth usage, all the good antioxidant stuff in the tea, plus the flavor, is gone gone gone, and mostly what is left is just a bit of [Calvinista] color and a lot more bitterness, such that you barely knew it once was tea. Like, it ain’t really got no flavuh, but it sure does act like it is “all that” of the original … To which this Scripture maybe applies:

    “But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God — having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with them.” (2 Timothy 3:1-5, NIV)

  80. Dave
    You must agree with him or you are one of those horrid people who engage in pastor under appreciation which is equal to slander and gossip and, most likely, character assassination. Don’t bother commenting over thee unless you absolutely adore what they write. Deb and I are showing the him skinned boyz how to do it.

  81. Bridget– Who would you choose to be the Holy Spirit in your life? The Holy Spirit, or “The Smartest Man I Know” (TM)? 🙂
    Dee– the thin skinned boyz, as well. 2 more slanders:
    RBD: “We are entirely dependent on the Scriptures.”
    The Scriptures: “Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” I Peter 1:13 
    RBD: “We must be rescued. And we’re only gonna be rescued by the Scriptures.“
    The Scriptures: “For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.” Col 1:13-14

  82. @ Heather at 10:16 am

    “What chaputz to say that they know God in a deep and intimate way and are available for a fee to introduce the rest us to this great God!”

    “We live by the Scriptures.
    We know Jesus by the Scriptures.
    We are entirely dependent on the Scriptures.
    We must be rescued. And we’re only gonna be rescued by the Scriptures.” – Al Mohler

    It would seem that these Scriptures don’t include Matthew 10 vs. 8 – “you received without paying, give without pay.”!

  83. Note to all character assassins:
    Please obey the scriptures and meet with the reconciliation commmiteee immediately, and we will be happy to discuss your grievances. Keep in mind, we will also be discussing the divisive, slanderous manner in which you brought this up. This is your last warning.

  84. Diane –

    As I recall, CJ said that his teaching on sin was misunderstood by the pastors, and, when he realized this, he quickly tried to remedy the situation; AOR merely repeated his version.

    From what I have read of CJ’s doctrine of sin, the pastors did not misunderstand – they applied it all too faithfully. Also, if any remedying actually took place, it took a number of years to do so; CJ and AOR make it sound like it happened very quickly.

    Concerning Ortlund – it looks like he took about 5 minutes to write that post. In the comments, he says that he realizes that there are genuine leadership problems, that he was presuming “faithful” pastors, that he knows there are legitimate complaints, etc. Assuming that he really means this, the post was written too sloppily to take it into account. Yes, the initial “complaint” was superficial, but then he went into unnamed “problems” without specifying whether or not they were substantial.

    The problem is that he was playing into the hands of people (like Frank Turk) who think that all complaints are superficial. I have to wonder if Ortlund knew that he was doing that. The fact that he deleted a critical comment and then closed comments give us a clue.

  85. “Note to all character assassins:
    Please obey the scriptures and meet with the reconciliation commmiteee immediately, and we will be happy to discuss your grievances. Keep in mind, we will also be discussing the divisive, slanderous manner in which you brought this up. This is your last warning.”

    OR,

    Beatings will continue until morale improves

  86. “RBD: “We are entirely dependent on the Scriptures.”

    …..(if it is the ESV translation)

    What about those poor schmucks in the dark ages who were illiterate or if not–not allowed to read scripture but only the priest could tell them what the scriptures said.

    What they really mean is “We are entirely dependent on them to tell us what the scriptures mean”.

  87. E.G. said:

    “Like I said, I’ve gone through this twice in my life now. And my crap-detector is currently quite well-calibrated and is firmly attached to a get-out-of-Dodge hair trigger.” Ditto!

    Sleepless in Seattle: I am with you in Seattle. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. I have enjoyed so much freedom after Mars Hill experience. America is a democracy; yet, some churches operate like a dictatorship, how unfortunate!

    They say:

    “We live by the Scriptures.
    We know Jesus by the Scriptures.
    We are entirely dependent on the Scriptures.
    We must be rescued. And we’re only gonna be rescued by the Scriptures.“

    They teach and use Scriptures in such a way that creates shame, guilt and fear in the flock so that they can control. And this teaching of exhaustive foreordination of everything trap people in an inescapable place, like a stainless steel cage. I guess they worship the book and not the author of the Book who is LOVE.

    Here is a quote from someone I forget the name: “Loveless truth is brutal, truthless love is hypocritical, truth and love are necessary.” When do they speak truth in love? I have not heard it from this radical crowd of today’s Calvinism.

  88. @ Jeanette and anyone else who mentioned this: I’ve never heard anybody say that we were rescued “by the Bible.” That struck me as completely bizarre. I, too, thought we were rescued by Jesus. I guess I haven’t gone to enough conferences or it would all make sense. ; )

  89. re: “….OF THE SCRIPTURES, BY THE SCRIPTURES, AND FOOOOR ALL THE SCRIPTURES OF THIS LAND! GOD BLESS AMERICA!”, stepping away from the podium to enthusiastic cheers and applause & a rousing rendition of “For He’s A Jolly Good Fellow”

    — or whatever that was

    As long as it all comes down to what’s written in black and white, need is created. The ignorant masses are clueless and NEED the only instruction that can pass muster which of course comes from no one but “a pastor”.

    Marvelous campaign for job security.

  90. JeffB
    Yep. And he deleted a comment by one of our readers. Sloppy and fingers stuck in his ears.

  91. I love all your posts and they were wonderful. Many people all over the world are coming to the knowledge and grace of our Lord Christ Jesus. Christian reliance, faith, and trust in God Son sacrifice and death on the cross and his glorious resurrection for the forgiveness and remission of sins is awesome. We are justified by faith not by works or religion. Jesus has done it all for us so we can boldly go to the throne of grace and worship our God.

  92. @JeffB–

    Thanks for the clarification about the sin doctrine.

    @Eagle–

    And throwing an Edwards “woe is me I’m a worm” quote like he did (below)in the last paragraph of his article is the knife twist in the wound of the abused, isn’t it?

    “Spiritual pride is very apt to suspect others, whereas a humble saint is most jealous of himself. He is so suspicious of nothing in the world as he is of his own heart. The spiritually proud person is apt to find fault with other saints . . . and to be quick to discern and take note of their deficiencies. But the eminently humble Christian has so much to do at home, and sees so much evil in his own heart, and is so concerned about it, that he is not apt to be very busy with others’ hearts.”

  93. I’m wary of any pastor who claims that Scripture is the way, the truth and the life. For starters, it’s not true – the Holy Spirit is meant to be our number one guide. Second, once you lay the idea that the Bible is THE ULTIMATE FOUNDATION FOR YOUR LIFE then it’s very easy to twist a verse to fit your agenda and have people believe that what you say is from the Lord via his word. If anyone disagrees, you can tell them that they’re disagreeing with God.

    Which is exactly what these guys do anyway, as we know.

  94. The Law was made for people, not people for the Law. When you start sacrificing people on the altar of the Law, you move from Mercy and Grace to Tyranny and Abuse.

  95. My opinion would be that the Scriptures are opened to us by the Holy Spirit who helps us then to live lives accordingly. You can’t divide them.

    I think the Scriptures are the way God leads us to maturity and to know his will (which after all is mostly for how we should live our lives, not where or with whom or whatever), but without prayer and the power of the Holy Spirit, Bible reading can become just another form of either legalism or scholasticism/intellectualism. Also I think the Bible is too broad to be contained within an over-elaborate system of doctrine, such as some people like to construct.

  96. Deb-

    Thanks for the info on Mahaney/Driscoll. Clearly there was a relationship acknowledged to be a friendship (“dear friend,” as Driscoll said) between the two men during the year the bylaws were being drawn up.

  97. anonymous,

    Isn’t the internet great? Thanks for asking your question because I had wondered whether Mahaney was an influence on the by-law changes at Mars Hill. That certainly appears to be a possibility.

  98. Anon1 wrote: “Note to all character assassins:
    Please obey the scriptures and meet with the reconciliation commmiteee immediately, and we will be happy to discuss your grievances. Keep in mind, we will also be discussing the divisive, slanderous manner in which you brought this up. This is your last warning.”

    You forgot the last part: Or you may be sued! 🙂

    Eagle: That Young Turk video is hilarious! I loved it. My kids told me it hit over 40K hits on the first day it was posted.

    I realize I’m highjacking with my case, but isn’t it all the same ol, same ol stuff? Pastors abandoning their own? It makes me sick.

    Look at the new message on BGBC website:

    “A personal note from Pastor Chuck: It has been my privilege to pastor Beaverton Grace Bible Church for over twelve years. As an American patriot and a Christian pastor I staunchly support our First Amendment rights. As a husband, a father, and a pastor I stand by my right and the right of every American citizen to defend themselves, their families, their churches, their secular organizations, and their businesses from World Wide Web Internet assaults consisting of false criminal accusations and character assassination of the worst kind. “

  99. Does it strike anyone else as odd that ‘American patriot’ is the thing he describes himself as and appeals to first?

  100. Hi Jeannette,

    I’m just starting reading that document, I have to say the first thing that stands out so much it almost screams is with the James 4:7 quote. Submit yourselves is underlined, but not unto God? Call me crazy, but isn’t the God bit the most important bit?

  101. Re the post by Julie Anne

    The problem with that pastor is that he has done all that he accuses others of doing — publicly accusing people of things they have not done, based on supposition and rumor. And his approach to the First Amendment is to sue people who exercise their First Amendment rights. But he will get his comeuppance. He will pay Julie Anne’s lawyer fees and costs because his arrogance led him to sue when there is no real basis for such a suit. He is graceless, retributive, invasive of other people’s privacy, and a hypocrite of the highest order.

  102. Julie Anne
    I like how he puts “American patriot” first. That is his way to justify the nonsense that he is engaged in. People will not look at him as an American patriot or a Christian if he pursues this path My guess is this. 99% of all who read what is going on will side with you and shake their heads at Chuck, all on the World Wide Web.

  103. Arce

    May it be so.
    “He will pay Julie Anne’s lawyer fees and costs because his arrogance led him to sue when there is no real basis for such a suit. He is graceless, retributive, invasive of other people’s privacy, and a hypocrite of the highest order.”

  104. I remember years ago, when we were new Christians in a church heavily populated by extreme ATI families, that there was a very popular teaching that was treated like Biblical doctrine- I think it came out of ATI. It was-“DON’T TAKE UP AN OFFENSE FOR ANOTHER”…in other words, even if you see someone being victimized, unfairly targeted, hurt, misjudged, lied about, etc. etc.,-shut up and don’t say a word.

    This was one of those things that raised warning flags for us. We thought, doesn’t the Bible, in effect, command that we “take up offenses for others”, when it talks about rescuing the oppressed, etc.?

    The post brought this awful heresy to mind. Such teachings lay the groundwork for people who are afraid to speak up or be viewed as “out of order” when common sense and reasonable Christian ethics would beg that they take action.

    Just an observation- there was almost a superstitious sort of belief that the more things a person ignored, the bigger prize they would receive spiritually. What mind control!!!

  105. I remember years ago, when we were new Christians in a church heavily populated by extreme ATI families, that there was a very popular teaching that was treated like Biblical doctrine- I think it came out of ATI. It was-“DON’T TAKE UP AN OFFENSE FOR ANOTHER”…in other words, even if you see someone being victimized, unfairly targeted, hurt, misjudged, lied about, etc. etc.,-shut up and don’t say a word.

    This was one of those things that raised warning flags for us. We thought, doesn’t the Bible, in effect, command that we “take up offenses for others”, when it talks about rescuing the oppressed, etc.?

    The post brought this awful heresy to mind. Such teachings lay the groundwork for people who are afraid to speak up or be viewed as “out of order” when common sense and reasonable Christian ethics would beg that they take action.

    Just an observation- there was almost a superstitious sort of belief that the more things a person ignored, the bigger prize they would receive spiritually. What mind control!!!

  106. Commenter at 9:33AM

    That teaching “I think it came out of ATI. It was-”DON’T TAKE UP AN OFFENSE FOR ANOTHER”…in other words, even if you see someone being victimized, unfairly targeted, hurt, misjudged, lied about, etc. etc.,-shut up and don’t say a word.” is Spiritual Abuse at it’s worst. I have come to the conclusion that, in the majority of instances, when pastors/leaders use some variation of this teaching (now updated to include gossip, slander and character assassination), they are to be viewed with MAJOR suspicion as having a high likelihood of be abusers.

  107. Dee,

    Merely teaching that is a form of abuse, because it facilitates, aka abets, and fosters the cover-up of abuse in all its forms: spiritual, sexual, spousal, child, etc.

  108. Yes! It’s the antithesis of the Good Samaritan. I am not a touchie feelie seeing visions in the sky on a regular basis type of Christian, BUT- I believe that God caused me to see a mental picture about how the people who stepped over the guy in the road in that story and went on their way probably held to some variation of the “Do not take up an offense for another”. Was this the thinking that allows Christians to look the other way in Nazi Germany, for example?? (Also the sister heresy of this- the “Whatever awful state in life someone finds themself, it is God’s will for them due to something “in” their life, and to rescue them would be to disrupt God’s will and teaching in their life. ” This may have some truth in certain situations- natural consequesces”- but does not work well in cases of abuse, etc.It also is strangely similar to the concept of Karma…

    BTW excuse my duplicate post above, I didn’t realize I had clicked on the comment already.

  109. Re: the “Whatever awful state in life someone finds themself, it is God’s will for them due to something ‘in’ their life, and to rescue them would be to disrupt God’s will and teaching in their life.”

    Isn’t something along that line the core of determinism found in fundamentalist Islam? If I remember right, within the past couple years, several books and/or online posts addressed the “Islamicization of Christianity,” with that sort of fatalistic determinism now reflecting the faith and practice of some theologically conservative Christians.

    Perhaps there is something here to think about in terms of Christians’ passivity when it comes to supposedly “not taking up an offense for others” which, in essence, amounts to outright enablement of abuse and injustice. And, to quote Erasmus, “He who allows oppression shares the crime.”

    Those preachers and others who teach such anti-biblical views surely will have much to give an account for …

  110. Jeanette Altes,

    I read the document from your former pastor about Structure of Authority in the Church.

    He seems to make a big point of submitting to leaders as being “more than being in agreement”. But beyond that, it’s hard to decipher exactly what submission means (in his view). So, his thesis seems to be “submission means to submit”.

    My guess is he realizes that if he articulated what he’s really thinking and wanting it would spell out in incriminating detail the extent to which he obviously wants autocratic control in the form of benevolent dictatorship. I suspect he knows as well as anyone how extreme and frightening that is, but he can’t face up to the fact himself. And so shrouds it all in very vague language. He’s in a kind of denial, and is hoping that everyone else buys into the soft language and joins him in this denial.

    But then some more heavy-handed manipulation: “Some believers simply do not want to submit to a Pastor or any other leader. They just want to live any way they want and take orders from no one. These people will not grow spiritually and if they remain in a state having no one over them in the Lord, they will also become more and more deceived and eventually shipwrecked in their faith.”

    So, if there is not someone “over me”, I will not grow spiritually and will become more and more deceived to the point of shipwreck. Sounds like another stew of nonsense to me.

  111. Arce

    ” it facilitates, aka abets, and fosters the cover-up of abuse in all its forms: spiritual, sexual, spousal, child, etc.” Sobering and true!

  112. To Jimmy, Deb, Arce, and Brad/Futurist Guy:

    Thanks for clarifying between Calvinist and Calvinista. What the calvinista sounds like to me is someone who runs toward the extremes of Calvinism and ends up losing all that was good and true about their faith (if indeed they had any true faith to begin with). The salt that loses its saltiness.

  113. Bingo!

    Sadly, some in the SBC don’t know the difference between Calvinist and Calvinsta (Neo-Cals), as demonstrated by their recent edict.