Missing Beauty In the Sin

There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal.- CS Lewis

Dee's latest bluebirds-more pictures of the birth to come!

Last week, I stumbled upon the You Tube video that you are about to see. I was mesmerized and I repeated the video over and over again. Whenever that happens, I know that God is trying to get my attention.

At the same time, one our readers, sent me a link here to a story about a 12 year old boy with cerebral palsy who, along with his family, was thrown out of an Elevation Church Easter service. This church is affiliated with Steven Furtick’s franchise.

What, pray tell, did the boy do?

According to his mom, right after the opening prayer, he voiced his own “Amen.” But it must not be a kind of “amen” that is approved by the pastors because the boy, along with his family, was immediately escorted out of the sanctuary.His mom apparently “emailed the pastor with an offer to start a ministry for special needs children. It was rejected.”

So, what was the church’s explanation?

“Elevation employees say the church focuses on worship, not ministries. And in a statement, a church spokeswoman said "it is our goal at Elevation to offer a distraction-free environment for all our guests. We look forward to resolving any misunderstanding that has occurred." 



Most likely, in response to the hue and cry over this response, “the pastor has since contacted a group that connects people with developmental challenges to community resources and requested special needs training for his staff.”

Suddenly, it hit me. Both of these stories are a living example of the emphasis on sin and ugliness by some of the Calvinista groups. On SGM Survivors and in the recent dustup at Mars Hill, I have read story after story about those who were relentlessly pressured about every sin imaginable. People wrote of asking their pastors questions and being told that they had the “sin of a questioning spirit.”

A recent commenter discussed how sinful your humble blog queens are. He then went to great lengths to tell us how much time he spends in prayer seeking to eliminate his sins, suggesting that we do the same. CJ Mahaney calls himself the worst sinner in the world and his ministry seems to emphasize sin, sin and more sin according to stories on the SGM Survivors sites.

It dawned on me that these types of people only see the ugliness of those around them. Sure, they play a good game of including themselves in the description. It's called “see how rotten I am.” But there is a perverse arrogance in letting everyone know just how sinful they know they are. They appear to subtly hint that, if they are so sinful, can we imagine just how sinful the rest of us are?

These types of people focus on the ugliness and, in so doing, I contend that they miss the beauty. That’s right. When was the last time you have heard one of these “sin” leaders ever talk about the beauty of God’s most magnificent creation-mankind?  I have some good news. Hmmm-maybe I should use the word, Gospel? Yep, I will. Why should the Calvinistas take over the word? I want to announce the beautiful news of the Gospel. We may be sinners but, if we accept Jesus, we are now positionally holy. Yes, we still sin but the Holy Spirit also leads us. And that is good news, indeed. And guess what? There is beauty involved.

When God created us, He gave each one of us gifts, talents and beauty. We overlook this when all we focus on is sin. Christ came so we could focus on the beauty, as well. Look at the world around us. We are told that this world is fallen and that one day it will be recreated. Well if this world is fallen, then why do some really beautiful things still exists in the midst of it all?

The Rockies, the Grand Canyon, the Caribbean ocean, the Alps, the bluebirds in my yard, pink azaleas, chocolate, my funny pug dogs, periwinkle blue, the Redwoods, giraffes and penguins, the sound of a baby laughing, a teen girl all dressed up for her first prom, an elderly lady dancing to a praise song in Budapest…. Please feel free to share with us the beauty that you see in this world.

And that is what the Calvinistas and other assorted sin sniffers overlook. At Elevation church, they focused on the off note of the “Amen” and did not see the beauty of a handicapped child who praised God in his language. Instead the church chose to stick to the mundane program and missed the mark.

In the video you are about to watch, Simon Cowell and the audience first saw only the unlovely. If this young man had not opened his mouth, they would have dismissed him as “nothing important” and even “weird.” The world would have missed the beauty.

Folks, we all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Jesus came, died on the Cross and He is now alive. We see the beauty of Jesus and through Him see the beauty in each other. Some leaders are stuck on sin. Let’s also be stuck on grace, and in that grace, get stuck on beauty.

Never forget, we are dealing with immortals. As CS Lewis said in “The Weight of Glory:

"It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you talk to may one day be a creature which, if you saw it now, you would strongly be tempted to worship, or else a horror and a corruption such as you now meet, if at all, only in a nightmare. All day long we are, in some degree, helping each other to one or other of these destinations. It is in the light of these overwhelming possibilities, it is with the awe and the circumspection proper to them, that we should conduct all our dealings with one another, all friendships, all loves, all play, all politics. There are no ordinary people. You have never talked to a mere mortal."

Oh, one further point. Just know this. Deb and I, along with Wade and others, are giving all of you a standing ovation for you bring joy and beauty to our lives every day. And Deb, we are always a duo, just like Charlotte and Jonathan.

Lydia's Corner:Ezekiel 12:1-14:11 Hebrews 7:1-17 Psalm 105:37-45 Proverbs 27:3

Comments

Missing Beauty In the Sin — 284 Comments

  1. Yes! How your message resonates within my soul! If I do not understand the doctrine of sin, I cannot understand my need for Jesus. BUT, the cross of Christ is useless to me without understanding and celebrating the glorious resurrection powerfully demonstrated by God the Father! Such grace, such mercy, such kindness – demonstrated lavishly for us – to avail every single day – for victorious living, for joyful living, and for enjoying the beauty of living that God provides all around us.

    Dark times? Sure. Hard times? Without a doubt.

    Knowing that He exchanges “beauty for ashes” and that “His anger is for a moment, but His favor is for a lifetime or in His favor is life. Weeping may endure for a night, but joy comes in the morning.” Psalm 30:5 AMP) Herein we see hope and have a taste of the WHOLE gospel!

    I know I am a sinner, no better and no worse than any other. This is not a contest; I am what I am. Because of Christ’s death AND resurrection, I am now a sinner saved by grace. That’s beautiful!

  2. What makes these folks think they are so right with God and that everyone else is on the outside looking at them??

  3. Oh, I’m sure Jesus is really happy with the way His “church” treated one of His little ones. I can hardly concentrate on the beauty of this post. I’m ashamed to even live in the same city as this ministry. Oh, wait…

  4. I have some friends who attend elevation – mainly college students in the Charlotte area. Anyone have any other links to this story? I’d love to round up some fodder to send their way…

  5. Just know this. Deb and I, along with Wade and others, are giving all of you a standing ovation for you bring joy and beauty to our lives every day.

    Exactly!

  6. Mot –

    I think we are looking in at those who have caged themselves and they are looking out between the bars with fists clenched and red, sweaty faces screaming don’t mess with our theology; it makes us feel important!

  7. Sin and the darkness within is the Calvinista Staple Diet. It’s an obsession that knows no boundaries. I occasionally attend a church in the Seattle area. It used to be my church home (my wife and I were very involved) before it underwent the Mars Hill Calvinista makeover. Now we call it the House of Darkness.

    There is a constant focus on sin. We are encouraged to find someone each week that we can tell our deepest darkest secrets to. It’s called going into the darkness within. It’s supposed to be good for us.

    We have Redemption groups where participants are expected to share in graphic detail their sin and darkness. The pastor was so excited by hearing men share their sexual stuff that he asked the group if he could bring his wife so she could hear. He was worried that the men might clam up but it turns out they didn’t. He was thrilled because an environment had been created where men felt free to share even with a woman present.

    These sessions are done with lights out and a bunch of candles burning on a short table that everyone sits around séance style.

    There is nothing good about this trend. It’s sick, perverted, and straight from the pit itself, but as they say sex sells.

  8. Christ focused- SIN-cerely forgiven”

    HowDee YaAll,

    “I want to announce the beautiful news of the Gospel. We may be sinners but, if we accept Jesus, we are now positionally holy. Yes, we still sin but the Holy Spirit also leads us. And that is good news, indeed.” -Dee, TWW

    Amen!

    SIN-cerely forgiven?

    What?

    …Bless here the LORD, O my soul, and forget none of his benefits!?!

    1. Who forgives all your iniquities; who heals all your diseases.

    2. Who redeems your life from destruction; who crowns you with lovingkindness and tender mercies.

    3. Who satisfies your mouth with good things; so that your mouth is renewed like the eagle’s. 

    4. The Lord is merciful and gracious.

    5. The Lord is slow to anger.

    6. The Lord is plenteous in mercy. 

    7. The Lord will not always chide.

    8. The Lord will not keep His anger for ever. 

    9. The Lord has not dealt with us after our sins.

    10. The Lord has not rewarded us according to our iniquities. ( …our bad stuff)

    11. Like as a father pity’s his children, so the LORD pity them that fear Him. 

    12. The Lord’s mercy is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him.

    13. Yes, for as the heaven is high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward them that fear him. 

    14. As far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us!

    15- ∞ …. Simply His ♥…always!

    Yahooooo!

    The Lord’s righteousness is extended to children’s children; to such as keep His covenant, and to those that remember his commandments to do them…

    As far as east is to da west…datz…datz…pretty big, huh?

    (grin)

    hahahahahahahaha

    Blessings! ta Y’All…

    Ipr♥ay4U

    S㋡py
    ___
    …Are theyz Calvinistas guyz still dunkin fer sin donutz?
    Comic relief: Rose – “Mercedes Benz”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLGemAAAoL0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  9. This subject is really close to my heart. I have gotten dirty looks from people at church for not standing up or sitting down according to worship team direction. Usually I just point to the 7 inch scar on my left knee or my cane and then do what I need to. I think that too often we focus on “fitting in” at church instead of celebrating the many wonderfully different ways God created us. Worship is worship and all worship is beautiful to the One who created us in His image. Genesis 1:27 “God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created them; male and female He created them.” If we are created in His image, how can anybody be less than beautiful? That is what I have to remind myself every time I see the scars on my body or struggle to walk with a cane. How amazing is God – He created me in His image, sent His son to die for me, forgave me of my sins and He loves me. My earthly disabilities pale in comparison to those miracles.

  10. David
    You have got to be kidding!!?? This goes on in an Acts 29 church? Well, it is a logical conclusion to their whacked out theology.Do you know if this particular to your former church or if others follow this formula? This is so good that it deserves it’s own post. House of Darkness, indeed.

  11. Dee, the redemption group stuff came straight from Mars Hill. The pastor and his wife went there for training on how to implement them in our church.

    http://redemptiongroups.com/

    Our church isn’t A29 but our pastor helped get the network started and is or was I don’t know for sure now very involved.

    We had people come out from Mars Hill back in 2007 to help our church get it’s small groups in order.

    That didn’t turn out so well.

  12. Rene,

    Your sweet son brought a smile to my face. That was a gift. He is adorable. 🙂

    Anonymous,

    I loved your comment. We all have scars, some have physical-some emotional…no one is immune. I have found many times that the ones with the most effortless gait are the ones who are struggling the most. That is what I look forward to very much in heaven…we all will “fit in.”

  13. Dee,

    “At Elevation church, they focused on the off note of the “Amen” and did not see the beauty of a handicapped child who praised God in his language.”

    And assumed God would not be pleased with such an amen.

    Beautiful post Dee, thank you.

  14. Rene
    What a wonderful boy! And if he got kicked out of that church and i was present, there would be a commotion like they had never seen!

  15. Elevation Church?
    You mean Steven Furtick’s organization?
    He is one of the main superstars of the Elephant Room.
    One of the essential core values in Elevation’s mission statement, known as “The Code”, is this statement:
    “We Are United Under One Vision – Elevation is built on the vision God gave Pastor Steven. We will aggressively defend our unity and that vision.”

    Read the rest.
    It’s just plain creepy: http://www.elevationchurch.org/thecode

  16. Anonymous
    There is a group of us who sit at the back of our sanctuary around a table.One of our friends has serious neuropathy and has trouble standing up and sitting down. Anyone who sends you dirty looks do not get it. God doesn’t care how much we stand or sit. He cares about our hearts.

  17. Thank you for posting about sin-sniffing. I found it incredibly burdensome at the SGM church I attended. When sins weren’t obvious enough, we were encouraged to sniff out the motives behind good works. Imagine. Why am I reeeeally bringing the sick lady a meal? Do I want her approval? Do I want others approval?

  18. We Are All About the Numbers – Tracking metrics measures effectiveness. We unapologetically set goals and measure progress through all available quantitative means.

    Above is part of the Code.

    Amazing!!

  19. Yes, rejection of beauty is part of it. But another part is the most basic lack of compassion. Humiliate that kid and his parents because he spoke a word out of turn? Prissily escort them out? What do they think a church is, a board meeting? Maybe they do.

    The “see how rotten I am” game can also be the equivalent of “I’m more humble than you.” Reminds me of one of my favorite jokes:

    “At a Yom Kippur (Day Of Atonement) service, the rabbi suddenly decided he needed to demonstrate his humility. So he threw himself to the floor of the synagogue, and yelled ‘Lord, I’m nothing! I’m nothing!’

    The cantor saw this, and did likewise, throwing himself down and shouting ‘Lord, I’m nothing! I’m nothing!’

    Little Mr. Goldberg, sitting in the middle of the third row, slowly stood, and slowly made his way to an aisle. Then he, with some difficulty, threw himself down, and shouted as loud as he could, ‘Lord, I’m nothing! I’m nothing!’

    The cantor and the rabbi were now standing. The cantor walked over to the rabbi, and said, ‘Look who thinks he’s nothing.'”

  20. @stevenfurtick: It’s TRUE! We’ll be hosting @bishopjakes @ElevationChurch this weekend!
    Let’s tweet Bishop our love, & spread the word!

  21. David,

    that is truly vile.

    if you need to confess sin might i suggest you go to your minister? this is why confessional churches seem more and more appealing to me. of course we are sinners and we need to recognize our sin but, that is the point of the word. it gives us the law and then tells us of our forgiveness found in Christ. it doesn’t tell us to go in dark rooms and act sadistic about our sin. that is just plain gross.

  22. sotnam,

    if they constantly are checking your motives that actually will cause you to actually do LESS good works out of faith. If the point of every small group is find out what seemingly good works you did and then pick apart if you really did it without sinning then you might as well not do anything because all you will do is think non stop about how you are doing those good works.

    what is their problem? with this mentality couldn’t you tell your small group leaders that you think they are sinning by leading the group because you now think that they are doing it to get praise from men?

    this people are literally deranged.

  23. Anon
    We have not yet begun our stuff on Furtick. He and Perry Noble are in a class by themselves and give Driscoll a run for the money.

  24. David,

    OH MY WORD! What a descent into the pit of hell that “redemption group” stuff is. I went to the website and all the players are there…Paul Trip and Powlison….all love nouthetic counseling. And are big into the ‘preach the gospel to yourself everyday” stuff because you are stuck at the cross.

    Anyone ever notice how this group confession stuff and talking about DETAILS of sin (sex, rape, etc)even if justs to the leaders sort of mirrors society with all the reality tv stuff?

    Beauty? When my 10 year old begs her grandpa to take her to his early seniors breakfast at church during Spring Break so she can get them all coffee refills and wait on them. Why? ‘Because mom, it is so hard for them to get up’. And they welcome her and love on her the whole time.

  25. sotnam
    That is all a pile of hooey to play mind games with you. We needed Jesus. He came and gave us grace. We need to get on with our freedom. I could sit around all day and assess my motives. And guess what? Even my examination of my motives would need to be examined. This becomes a vicious cycle. These Calvinistas have truly screwed things up. What is wary is that many of them think they are really really good at assessing their own sin and even better at assessing yours. These are strange men with a strange gospel. Just give me Jesus.

  26. Anon
    Furtick is about 2 1/2 hours from where we live. We are planning a road trip in the near future. BTW, already have had one man come on this blog and threaten us about visiting Furtick’s church. That clenched the deal for us. Notice to Furtick’s fans: TWW is going on the road soon. Don’t worry. We report what we see.

  27. I once watched a vid of Furtick’s church service when Chandler was speaking. It was wierd. Big orange chairs on the stage and Furtick making strange faces to the audience while squirming in one. He looks angry all the time…in your face angry. I almost thought I was watching one of those “fake matches” they do on wrestling only it was with ministry folks on stages. I simply cannot believe their body language is not manufactured.

  28. Anon1
    That is why we plan to visit. Cell phones take good pictures. The guy is very scary as is Noble. I don’t get the appeal. But, then again, i don’t like to be manipulated.

  29. Anon1 11:09 pm

    That’s another catch phrase used repeatedly in the House of Darkness: “Take it to the cross.” Constantly during the day we are to try as hard as possible to identify any sin deep within ourselves and then immediately take it to the cross. What does that mean? I don’t have the slightest idea.

    For good Friday service we were supposed to spend a couple weeks prior intensely reflecting upon our sin and pick out one or two of our best ones. At the end of the somber service, where talking is not welcome, we were to write our selected sin on a paper and then burn it in the fire. We were also supposed to talk with our children “often” prior to the service to try and help them think about their own sin and identify one they could write down.

    You’ll notice that the Redemption Group stuff incorporates the standard maniacal control structures with section leaders, group leaders, apprentices, etc. where everyone below is to be absolutely submissive to and can be disciplined by the person over you or above you – same as with the Mars Hill small group structure.

    Where are life, light, freedom, beauty, peace, egalitarianism, and a risen, living, and residing savior in all this?

  30. When I read about the “redemption groups” I did a simple web search. There the top result was the blog of a teenaged girl. 
    A brief chilling excerpt:
    ‘The next day it was time for me to go through what Mr. B. began referring to as “The Wringer” which means that it was time for my group to LOVE me by completely stripping me of any remnant of pride and exposing me to the blatant ugliness of my sin. Let me just say, it doesn’t feel very loving until you are through, and you see exactly what they did.
    As they asked probing questions to which I had to admit truthful answers or else lie, I felt as if they were stripping me naked, like an onion, layer by layer. Although I already knew of my sin, I’m not sure I really comprehended the lengths and depths to which it went. I did not like confessing it to other sinful struggling people who I didn’t know, and who didn’t know me. I hated it. I tearfully confessed that I had a deep, deep idol… myself. I confessed that I paid homage to my idol by trying to rescue other people so that I could look like a good person, creating a perfect image of myself for other people, by trying hard to earn the praise and affirmation of anyone who would give it to me, by judging other people to make myself feel better, and by believing the lie that I couldn’t really go before God and let Him love me until I had myself together, all packaged up and tied up with a pretty bow.’

    I was reminded of the EST seminars of Werner Erhard. Compare this from the Skeptics Dictionary http://www.skepdic.com/est.html
        est adopted, in part, the Zen master approach, which was often abusive, profane, demeaning, and authoritarian. (One of my favorite Zen stories is of the master who asks his disciple a series of questions. No matter what the disciple answers, the master hits him with a stick. Even contradictory answers are met with the stick. The result is not resentment but enlightenment. If you stick around long enough, life will teach you this lesson for free: no matter what you do, it hits you with its stick!)

  31. When I was younger (try 20+ years ago) and immersed in the Calvinist world, I was impressed by the sin-obsessed. There was one guy in particular who always seemed to be discussing the issues of sin. The impression I got (and I’m sure many others do) was that taking sin seriously proved that you were taking God seriously — sold out for Jesus. Ironically he turned out to be the worst religious abuser I have ever met, with a masters degree in fault-finding.

    For me the eye-opening began the day I was at a healing conference and heard someone speak about the sin of perfectionism. my jaw literally dropped — my first thought was that was as crazy as talking about the sin of honesty, or the sin of kindness. But as the speaker went on, I got the point, and as it percolated through my understanding over time, it changed my thinking completely (in fact, you could say I repented of it! ) trying to get things perfect is an impossibility, because I can’t, so it’s a recipe for failure and frustration. But worse, it’s a denial of the grace of God. I step out in faith to do what He asks of me, trusting that He will make up for my falling short. I do the best I can, and entrust myself and all that I do to the Holy Spirit, knowing I am already fully forgiven. That is enough.

    we are not called to have our eyes fixed on our sins, we are called to have our eyes fixed on Jesus who is greater than all our sin. We entrust ourselves to Him believing that he will show us, along the way, what we need to repent of. At the point of my final splitting off from that guy and his group, I told him he did not have the authority to convict me of sins I might have lurking there (whenever I saw something differently to the way he did) — that was the Holy Spirit’s job, not his. Strangely, that didn’t go down too well.

    You know, trying to grub around for hidden sin motives in our lives is about as useless as digging up carrots or potatoes every couple of days to see how they’re growing — and for exactly the same reason — it kills the life! And it totally paralyses you from actually doing God’s work in the world (like reaching out in love to the needy and the ‘different’. It reminds me very much of the old children’s poem about the caterpillar, who was doing fine until someone asked him which leg came after which:
    “which raised his mind to such a pitch
    he lay distracted in a ditch
    considering how to run”.

    May we all run the race that is set before us by fixing our eyes on Jesus, and then seeing everyone else with His eyes

  32. There is so much beauty in this world… and so much goodness, too.

    Endless rumination on dark things is such a trap.

    I would rather watch animals and birds and trees and tend some growing plants… not only is this calming and uplifting, it can all reflect God’s goodness and love in ways that we tend to miss in our harried, busy, traffic-jammed lives. (never mind the spiritual abuse aspect of things – those of us who aren’t in the middle of that still tend to miss things…)

    Learning to see beauty in what’s seemingly prosaic and ordinary is (I think) a gateway to the extraordinary.

  33. That’s what JC did. When the disciples tried to stop the children being brought to Him, He said, “Put them out the back, they’re a distraction.” Oh, wait…um.

  34. Rene, my son would also be kicked out of that church. So would the adult son of a couple there, who has severe cerebral palsy and involuntarily grunts–sometimes during service. Fortunately, our church is much more understanding.

  35. “There is a constant focus on sin. We are encouraged to find someone each week that we can tell our deepest darkest secrets to. It’s called going into the darkness within. It’s supposed to be good for us.”

    That, David, sounds exactly like the “discipleship partner” relationship that members of the Crossroads Movement/ICOC were required to have. We were supposed to confess *every* sin. I don’t have a problem with discipleship partners–in fact, I think we NEED people we can confide in–but this took “discipling” to an unhealthy level.

  36. My minister husband has a favorite joke,”My first book will be titled Humility and How I Attained It.” Charles Dickens created a character just like these folks, his name was Uriah Heep and he was always saying how humble he was, but in reality he was doing some of the most awful things to people he resented who were kind to them. Read it all in David Copperfield.
    One key to these folks’ motives is the word guests. They obviously see people who attend their church not as equal members of Christ’s body, but as audience to a show, their show and who must not do anything to change or really participate in what they regard as the leaders’ worship.

  37. Dee, I’ll be interested to hear your impressions after you make your road trip to the Queen City.

    I visited Elevation Church a few times last fall – went four weeks in a row. I have to say that Steven Furtick’s sermons that I heard there, and a few that I had listened to online previous to my visits, were very uplifting and there really was nothing about them that raised my eyebrows. Having recently left an SGM church, I was very blessed to NOT hear even once what a wretched sinner I was, but that I’m a much loved child of God, He dwells in me, He made me unique and can use me as I follow Him, etc. I did not attend any of the Code Orange Revival meetings with its “interesting” array of speakers. I had stopped visiting before that.

    There were things I didn’t like about the Sunday services, though. Mainly that there was basically no opportunity to meet people. As you go in to get your seat, they have videos playing on the big screen and the volume is turned up extremely high. Nobody’s really talking. They’re just sitting there looking at the screen. The worship time is LOUD and it’s like a rock concert with lights and so forth. They do have earplugs available at the door when you go in, if you want them. Then, as soon as the service is over, you get herded out because the next service starts almost immediately. And you just leave. The only way to get to know people is by being a volunteer or by joining a small group. I wasn’t interested enough to do either.(And, by the way, volunteering and joining small groups are completely voluntary. They don’t have any kind of formal membership. That was something I liked.)

    Something that really impressed me was how involved they are in the community. They don’t just talk about helping the needy; they actually do it. They partner with already existing non-profits and government programs in a huge way by providing manpower and lots and lots of money. I was blown away when I heard how much money they give away. And they are very organized in how they connect volunteers to projects going on all over the city.

    Did you know that Elevation Church is Southern Baptist? I didn’t until I happened to see a local news story that featured a couple of Charlotte churches, and they mentioned that. They didn’t talk about being SB at all on Sundays and I couldn’t find it anywhere on their website. I thought that was interesting.

    There were other things about Elevation that didn’t sit well with me, but nothing that I would say are downright sinful or wrong. Just not my preference and not what I believe God is calling me to do. But, like I said, I only visited for a month and am just looking at the outward appearance. I know nothing of the inner workings of the church or the true character of the staff.

  38. Robin
    Noble, for sure. But Furtick is up in the air. Go over and read his “Code” for being a part of the church,

  39. David
    Simple answer for when you are told to take it to the Cross. It has been taken to the Cross and I am free. There are not enough hours in my life to contemplate every last sin. And, in fact, I cannot even perceive some of my sin. That is why Jesus came, to forgive sins known and unknown. When you are convicted, ask for forgiveness and go on. I can never be grateful enough or do enough so Jesus took care of it.”Forgetting what lies behind, I press on to the goal…”

  40. Deb, that “Hey Haters” video is kinda weird. It was probably the introduction to a new sermon series. I think it was an attempt to be hip and artsy and pique curiosity. They spend a lot of time and money on their media productions, and I think this one backfired. Some of what he says is right on, but it comes across as mean and sarcastic. He actually has an evil look in this video, and that’s not how he normally comes across.

  41. Dave AA

    This is just another idiotic outgrowth from the Encounter Groups of the 70s. Let me tell you what happened to me because it is a prime example. A professor took us to a drug rehab center to observe. Suddenly, I was asked to go into a small room where the counselor (a guy who looked like he had spent much time in outer space) said that one of the students admitted to using marijuana and they decided to confront the whole group. I said I had not used, do not use and am opposed to it because my faith indicates that substance abuse is not God’s best for us. (I was 17 at the time). Well, it started getting really weird. He said “You seem pretty proud that you are not a drug addict.” “You think you are better than them.” I said that was not so but he insisted. He began telling me all the things that were wrong with me, even though he had known me for only 5 minutes. I got up and said I wanted to find my professor and get out of there.

    Folks should run from anything like this. It makes the Catholic confessional look downright tame.

  42. Lynne
    I believe this sin thing is the calling card of abusive groups. How many times I have read over at SGM Survivors of people who have gone to their pastor with a concern and having it turned on them as they are called terrible sinners. This is am after of control. Thankfully, after awhile, most people burn out since we cannot do it all right. Then they remember why Jesus came. And they run to grace.

  43. I did some googling last night and found some links regarding this story. Interesting that Elevation responded with “we didn’t ask them to leave, we just asked them to worship in another part of our building where they wouldn’t be “distracted” and a bunch of blah, blah, blah about creating a culture that everyone feels comfortable worshipping in. UMMMM — who was the one who was distracted to start with?

    Deb, Dee, you can pick me up on your way to EC on the road trip. I’m right on 85 about 45 mins north of Charlotte. I’d love to go too. Many of the preachers at the church where we’ve attended loosely for a few months went to EC several times because they wanted to take notes on being a “mega” and how to do it right. I actually DID like Steven Furtick for a time – the stuff he tweeted seemed good until that whole “Haters gonna Hate” video. That was so off-putting to me I couldn’t’ stand it. I’ve since read some things and talked to a few parents whose kids go to EC in Charlotte and they have told me other stories about how weird Furtick is and how it’s all about HIM (furtick, not JC)

    Also I find it interesting that almost the entire staff of Proverbs31 ministries attends his church and were some of the first members when EC was just a small plant of a church. Wonder if that’s how Furtick got all his book deals so quickly while still practically a nobody? Hmmmm

  44. Numo
    I believe that perceiving beauty is God’s gateway into understanding Him.He is beautiful and so is His creation. Yep, we are sinners, but He has taken care of that situation in a most unexpected way. Who would have thought that the Cross would be the means to fully perceive God’s splendor?

  45. cranston
    I think what Jesus did was irrelevant to people like this. They want ORDER, darn it, and ORDER they shall have and it doesn’t matter who gets hurt.

  46. This one was my favorite point in Elevation Church’s “The Code”:

    3. We Are All About the Numbers – Tracking metrics measures effectiveness. We unapologetically set goals and measure progress through all available quantitative means.

    AKA – we will tweet every week how many people fill our pews and brag about the massive baptisms we hold on a regular basis to make sure everyone else knows how important, special and blessed we are!!!!

    However, please don’t ask us to reveal the dollar amount we pay our pastor in salary. That’s top secret.

  47. Tina
    I believe that the differently abled are God’s gift to us. Through them we begin to see that faith is not a matter of doing. I volunteer at a center for the severely handicapped. These children are unable to speak and are mostly fed by G tube. But, every once in awhile, i get the biggest grin from them. Those smiles light up my life and i tell them (I don’t think the understand but I say it anyway) that I can live a week on one of those smiles. I see God more clearly in them than I do with some of these mega idols.

  48. Barbara
    I bet you husband is an awesome pastor. We need more like him. I totally forgot about David Copperfield. Thank you for helping me to remember Uriah Heep. I must go and get some quotes from the book.

  49. True Words,

    We’d love to get you on our way to Charlotte! That would be so much fun.

    I remember when Proverbs 31 came into existence. One of my neighbors (who has since moved) was on the original board. I used to get their newsletter, attended a fund-raising dinner here in Raleigh, and even attended one of their conferences in Charlotte about book writing/publishing. I have since lost touch with the Proverbs 31 ministry.

  50. True Words:

    You said: “However, please don’t ask us to reveal the dollar amount we pay our pastor in salary. That’s top secret.”

    That is just too ironic!! Maybe they should say they are only interested in certain numbers.

    Religion is not Christianity.

  51. Moniker
    Thank you for your unbiased review of Elevation. It is good to get such a perspective because Furtick is controversial. Please see Deb’s link above to Hey Haters. I think this next line shows how much you have learned from your SGM experience. “I only visited for a month and am just looking at the outward appearance. I know nothing of the inner workings of the church or the true character of the staff.” That ability to understand that there may be more going on underneath will serve you in good stead as you look for a church. Well done!

    As I have learned in my journey, there is the “outward” presentation of a church which always looks good. Missions, groups, etc are often touted. But, once you are immersed, then the rubber meets the road. I need to figure something out. Have you read the “Code” which spells out their beliefs? There is much in there that might be reminiscent of your previous experience. My guess is they might enforce church discipline on you even if you are not “formally” a member.

  52. Dee, I read the Code before, and just looked at it again. I’m not quite sure what you’re referring to about church discipline and membership. I will tell you, though, that my husband and I got together with another couple right around the same time we were visiting Elevation. We told them about our visit and they both reacted with an “UGH” expression. They hadn’t been to Elevation, but their son had. He had started to get involved in some kind of leadership position but pulled out because of the way he was treated in training sessions. I don’t remember the specifics, but it had something to do with put-downs and humiliation to teach the guys humility or something like that. The parents were not amused.

  53. Tina –

    I too have noted the parallel with the International Church of Christ a few times. There are a lot of parallels with Mars hill – the courtship fad, the sin sniffing, the way in which certain personality types are chosen for leadership.

    If any others want to check this out, go to the discussion forums here:

    http://forums.delphiforums.com/n/main.asp?webtag=ICCdiscussion&nav=start&prettyurl=/ICCdiscussion

    You’ll see plenty of similar stories.

    Oh, and on the sin thing: “Be a sinner and sin boldly, but believe and rejoice in Christ even more boldly. For he is victorious over sin, death, and the world.”

  54. “Please feel free to share with us the beauty that you see in this world.”

    One time I was watching a video where a diver was filming the most unusual and beautiful fish I had ever seen. I asked the Lord why He created that species where very, very few people could see and appreciate their beauty. I heard Him say in response….”for my pleasure.”

    All things are created for His pleasure and we should pray that we see the same beauty in those things that He does.

    Like the song goes….”Everything is beautiful in it’s own way….”

  55. Concerning the joke about the rabbi and the cantor, I think I remember someone saying,”You’re not big enough to be that small.” I love the joke! God bless

  56. Longtime reader, first comment.

    I have a very visible physical disability; most of the time it doesn’t stop me though it does demand a certain amount of creativity. I am in my church choir and so am quite visible. It’s an Episcopal church so there’s a fair bit of standing at certain points which I just can’t do; moving around is one thing, but standing still is another.

    After my first couple of times there I asked if it was all right if I just sat as standing was rather painful and the response? “Of course! Do whatever you need to!” and surprise that I even asked. A set of robes was altered for me and I have a spot to hang them that I can reach easily. (One advantage is that mine are so short that *nobody* is going to accidentally grab mine by mistake. 🙂 ) None of this was viewed as inconvenient or anything negative at all.

    I would think any church that kicks a child out for making a few sounds, especially a disabled kid, would need to rethink the whole “Christianity” thing. Discrimination like this is the opposite of what Jesus stands for in my view. Trust me, that kid gets enough “you aren’t good enough, we don’t want you” messages” from society — to get it from a church? What are they THINKING?

  57. Rachel,

    Thanks for your comment. I especially agree with your remarks:

    “I would think any church that kicks a child out for making a few sounds, especially a disabled kid, would need to rethink the whole “Christianity” thing. Discrimination like this is the opposite of what Jesus stands for in my view. Trust me, that kid gets enough “you aren’t good enough, we don’t want you” messages” from society — to get it from a church? What are they THINKING?”

    I am glad that this little incident got a lot of attention.

  58. One of the essential core values in Elevation’s mission statement, known as “The Code”, is this statement:
    “We Are United Under One Vision – Elevation is built on the vision God gave Pastor Steven. We will aggressively defend our unity and that vision.”

    As in “All Praise Comrade Dear Leader!”?

  59. The Rockies…

    “It’s All Gonna Burn.”

    …the Grand Canyon…

    “It’s All Gonna Burn.”

    …the Caribbean ocean…

    “It’s All Gonna Burn.”

    …the Alps, the bluebirds in my yard, pink azaleas, chocolate, my funny pug dogs, periwinkle blue, the Redwoods, giraffes and penguins, the sound of a baby laughing, a teen girl all dressed up for her first prom, an elderly lady dancing to a praise song in Budapest…

    See above; you know the drill.

    Please feel free to share with us the beauty that you see in this world.

    The explosion of creativity — art, comics, original music, music videos, fiction — you find in “My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic” fandom. I’ve been immersed in it for around a year. There is genuine beauty there. And hope. And wonder, like I got when I first read SF and fantasy in my teens. I’ve even seen echoes of the Gospel in some of those derivative tales with colorful cartoon ponies, more Gospel than I’ve seen in Conventional Christian media.

    And that is what the Calvinistas and other assorted sin sniffers overlook.

    Tell the Calvinistas I’m hiding out in Ponyville until they blow over.

  60. CJ Mahaney calls himself the worst sinner in the world and his ministry seems to emphasize sin, sin and more sin according to stories on the SGM Survivors sites.

    AKA “The Beatdown.”

    It dawned on me that these types of people only see the ugliness of those around them.

    And we’ve got too much of a Cult of Ugliness in general. Where everything of beauty is belittled and deconstructed until the only heroes we have left are Lindsay Lohan, Paris Hilton, and Charlie Sheen. (And maybe Ayn Rand to be countercultural.) To where a Chicago machine pol can get into the White House by just smiling benevolently, intoning “Hope! Change! Hope-Change!”, and letting the beauty- and hope-starved crowd claim him as Messiah because he’s the only one preaching Hope.

    What is this — “Just like the Cult of Ugliness you see everywhere, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”?

    In Scandinavian folk beliefs, there’s something called a “Troll Shard” which gets into your eye. From then on, you see ugliness as beauty and beauty as revolting ugliness. “Just like a Troll Shard, Except CHRISTIAN(TM)!”?

  61. I watched that video clip of the 2 singers Jonathon and Charlotte — I started sobbing as soon as they began to sing.

    Amazing.

    The beauty of the whole thing was overpowering.

    The venue was completely contrived, but Charlotte and Jonathon — so genuine. I saw in them lovely things — raw talent being courageously shared rather than hidden (whether hidden out of self-protection, fear of pride, fear of being appraised, etc.), kindness, friendship, and I’ll mention courage again, etc.

    I was so happy for both of them, for that moment of the celebrating of them. I can absolutely hear God joining in with the audience, yelling “YES!!! YES!!! YOU GO JONATHON! YOU GO GIRL!” and taking great delight in the many good and wonderful things that were invested in their performance.

  62. René

    I just saw the pictures of your son. He’s so cute and he looks really happy. Thanks so much for sharing them!

    Blessings to both of you!

  63. As I have said before, drawing attention to your “sinfulness” is a form of pride. “Look at ME, I’m such a bad sinner!” And it is also a form of blasphmey, by drawing attention away from the One who has forgiven you all your sins.

    Great video. That is how things are. We see someone who is not like us, and we want to shuffle them off to somewhere else. Years ago, my daughter was involved in Young Life. She went on a missions trip to Russia and stood before several classrooms full of students about Jesus. She was heavy and when she got back, they told her that she could not go on another missions trip because the other students were uncomfortable with her, i.e., she didn’t look like the prom queen. The adult leader actually told her that they go after the school quarterback and prom queen so that they can draw the most student interest.

    My daughter was so stumbled, she walked away from her faith. That was over 20 years ago. Her heart is still broken along with ours.

  64. As much as I love the posts here, I learn SO MUCH from the comments. Thank you all, from the back of the e-church 🙂

  65. “You’ll never guess…”

    Hey,

    Renè wrote: “I wait for the yellow bus.  My son’s seat is at the very back but you sit right by the door.  I wave to you, I call your name.  When Teko the little white dog is at our house I tuck him under my arm when the bus comes.  I hold him up to your window to see the frenzy and delight mirrored from both sides of the glass.”

    “One day I peek inside the bus and see tender, tube-shaped feet bare and dangling.  The tiniest of the tiny toes is bleeding; you shuck your winter boots whenever you get half a chance and this time you’ve torn a nail.  I cluck like a mother and admonish the bus driver, but what I really want to do is kiss that toe.”  

    Thank you Renè for sharing this…

    *
    To the many who come here to TWW for solis among the fiercely raging storm outside…

    I am so sorry you have suffered injury. (sadface)

    (tears)

    …to kiss your little toe?

    Hmmm…

    I tresspass here @ TWW to…

    (I have no words. How can I?)

    For now I must be content just to kneel here in my quiet lit’l safe place and praise God for you, that He cares when I am unable, or the better part of unwillingness…

    The better angels in us prevail, Lord!

    Love, cuz you do Lord,

    Blessings! ta All…

    Ipr♥ay4U

    S㋡py

    now is the time…

    ___
    “Come Now Is The Time…”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2CWdTv997M&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Hillsong United “The Time Has Come”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQk65gVED1I&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  66. They worship a cruel and vindictive god. One that bears little difference from Chemosh and Molech of the Canaanites.

  67. LOL…what a joke. To say that Elevation “church” focuses on worship is like saying McDonald’s focuses on nutrition.

  68. Haven’t made it through all the comments, but I want to share my thoughts anyway.

    This analyzing of motives thing… it’s a given that pure motives will be a rare event for any of us. Let’s just get over that, and move on.

    I was having my own self-induced Ego-analysis-fest last year, until I realized how much time and energy i was wasting. If you’ll read, I will tell. (the story, with an effort at succinctness)

    I’ve always been painfully aware of the prickly relationship I have with my sister. She’s very sanguine, happy-go-lucky, and (just like when she was 4) is always wanting and hoping for a wonderful relationship with her older sister (me). I’m the prickly one, with baggage i can’t quite figure out.

    I’m also the tidier one. Last year I was at her house for a bit, and I could see a whole host of things she could be doing differently to keep her house more organized and tidy. I began sharing my ideas, and all the while I was talking, this telescoping microanalysis was taking place inside me. Sifting through my motives as the words came out of my mouth. Doing my best with emotional multi-tasking and donning the appropriate tone and expression to match what I was saying (despite the inner self-loathing that was taking place inside).

    It was a remarkable thing: pleasantly sharing my skills and creativity and good will while simultaneously inwardly repenting of & hating myself for bragging, superiority, and what surely could NOT have been good will on my part. SURELY I had ulterior motives, was acting on latent sibling rivalry, and simply wanted to demonstrate my superiority.

    I chatted with my mother-in-law in England about it over the phone. She basically poured a bucket of cold water over me, sobering me up, and said get over yourself, you are offering her valuable advice that will be very helpful to her. End of story.

    So I did. And I realized that this was an opportunity for us to work together, be together for a common purpose, to bring about good. And she & I can find enjoyment simply in that, and in working together positively. I stopped analyzing the composition of my motives and just allowed myself to feel good about the fact that I was helping my sister improve her life, and the simplicitiy of accomplishing these tasks together and the good feeling which meaningful hard work brings.

    And our relationship has grown and improved. The expecations were taken down a notch. Such hyper (& futile) idealism (that I would be the “wonderful older sister” — the Elinor Dashwood to Marianne Dashwood) was replaced with simply enjoying and feeling good about folding laundry together and sorting the dried out markers from the yet inky markers together.

  69. For those who don’t know, Furtick is the protege of a guy named Perry Noble. If you wish to read the account of how Noble’s “church” threatened, harrassed, and intimidated a college professor who had the audacity to question Noble, check out:
    http://www.pajamapages.com
    I don’t want to give away all the truly horrible details, but know that after the prof found out that goons from the “church” were watching his kids on a playground, he had to get the police involved to ensure protection for his family. Dee, I’m asking you to check out the website. Sadly, it fits right in with what this site is all about. For some reason, I’ve always forgotten to tell you about it, but as soon as I read mention of Furtick, it immediately came to mind.
    A year or two ago, on Easter Sunday at Noble’s “church”, they played the AC/DC song, “Highway to Hell” as part of their “worship.” Seriously folks, you can’t make this stuff up.

  70. Dee, I should have added this to my previous post. When you click on that site, scroll down a bit to a link entitled: Holy Rage at the ‘Spring (the harassment story) to read the story that I referenced. Truly horrific stuff. Or, just click the link below:
    http://www.pajamapages.com/holy-rage-at-the-spring-2/

    On on a somewhat related note, and since you stated above that you will be checking into elevation. You may also want to check out the story of “pastor” Gary Lamb, another Noble disciple. The short story is that while he was a “pastor” he had an affair with his secretary. They both got divorced and then married each other. Less than a year after this all happened, he just “felt God calling him back to the ministry”, so now he’s a “pastor” yet again. I can’t help but wonder if his new wife keeps close tabs on his new secretary 🙂

  71. This is truly a sad situation.

    I don’t get it really. So many missed opportunities.

    Think about it.

    Did this church really know this family? Did they even consider for a moment that this could be the first time this family ever graced the doors of this church…Did they consider that this family could have no knowledge of Jesus Christ..seeking for Him?

    And then they humiliate them by asking them to leave during the middle of a Resurrection Sunday Service because of this child’s disability. I am scared to know what message this may have sent to those who hold to no belief in Christ who attended that church Sunday.

    What they should have done was to wait patiently, and welcome the family and ASK them how the church could accomodate them as a church family.

    Missed opportunities. I get they wanted to keep “others” in the church from being distracted. I get they didn’t fully kick them out of the church, but allowed them to go to an overflow area, but I don’t get them doing this after the service started.

    And really, I think most people in the congregation would understand this child’s disability, and not worry about being distracted.

    Certainly beauty missed.

    Dee,

    I agree with most of what you said. I have noticed that many Calvinista’s often focus on sin..and sometimes they stretch it a bit too far..

    I will say this though…In the times that I have listened to certain Calvinista’s such as Chandler, Platt, and even Francis Chan…I have been uplifted with much of what they have said.

    Yes, they focus on the dangers of sin, but never apart to the victory we have in Christ.

    Some of the most uplifting sermons I have ever listened to on the hope of the good news and the “beauty” of what we have in Christ have come from the mouth of Chandler, Platt, and Chan.

    I affirm that they take sin seriously…and I don’t believe this to be a mistake…Most of the new testament warns about the destructive nature of sin..and many of those letters were written to Christians in various communities. If they were to leave it at that however, it would be a mistake.

    Fortunately, the Calivinistas I have listened to have often affirmed the beauty of what is to come for those of us in Christ…and more importantly…who we are in Christ now!

    Sadly, I now there are many who take things WAY too far…such as the examples mentioned in the comments above)..

    Hope everyone is having a great day today!

  72. Rene –

    Your son is adorable. Thank’s so much for sharing the pictures with us! You seem to be just the mother he was going to need 🙂

  73. Randall Slack,
    I have always ALWAYS struggled with my weight since I was about 11 years old (I’m 53 now), and the story of your daughter breaks my heart. “Normal” sized people just have no idea how deep and lasting that hurt is. (((hugs))) to your daughter.

  74. She was heavy and when she got back, they told her that she could not go on another missions trip because the other students were uncomfortable with her, i.e., she didn’t look like the prom queen. The adult leader actually told her that they go after the school quarterback and prom queen so that they can draw the most student interest. — Randall Slack

    You know what that adult leader told not only her but all the rest of us? That God and Christ are only for the Quarterbacks and Prom Queens and other Beautiful People, NOT losers like you and me. God is God for the rich and pretty and powerful — all the rest of us can go to hell.

  75. “Decent Into Madness, Perhaps?

    hmmm….

                           What?

    …”the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong…”

    hahahahahahaha

    Jesus said: Not -but by me…

    I am the vine…

    Remember?

    C.J. Mahaney, Mark Driscoll, Mark Dever, Al Mohler, art thou now the disconnected branches, n’est-ce pas? …withered, and descend’d into madness?!?

    Bread to the wise,
    Riches to men of understanding,
    Favor to men of skill?

    Jesus said: Not, but by me…

    I am the gate!
    I am the vine!
    I am the way!
    I am the true shepherd, who lay’d down His life for the sheep!
    I am chief of the corner…

    Not you!

    Have T4G, Act 29, Mark 9, and SGM, become a proverbial spiritual landfills, where their light is darkness, which is likened to the highland mist, and rolls unsuspectingly across the land, where those malignant open sores, who pollute the streams of our God seek to prosper in their way?

    Me thinks the Lord in Heaven, doth laugh!

    hahahahahahaha

    Have they not made a pit, and digg’d deep into it?  Shall they not rather, fall into the ditch, in which they have made? Shall not their mischief return upon their own head(s), unless they repent of their deeds? 

    hmmm…

    How can you say, I am not polluted, for I have not gone after a false Gospel, when your children lie spiritually naked in the street?  He on high, does He not see your wearying ways in His church, and know what you have done to the least of these, you have one to Him? Shall your hands prosper, when the cries of those who sought comfort at your feet, ascend  night to long dreary night?

    “A voice in Rama was heard, lamentation and great wailing; Rachel weeping audibly for her children; and she desired not to be comforted, because they are not.”

    Like Rachel, who doth weep for her children because they are no more, I weep before the Lord, my God! Shall those, with implements formed against the dear sweet people of the book, prosper? 

    Some how I think not!

    *
    …And Yes!, there certainly is good news! :

    Now!, Now! Kind Folks, you are no more God’s strangers and distant foreigners!, if you indeed be in Christ, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God, and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ, Himself being the chief corner stone, -in whom all the building fitly-framed-together is being grown-up unto an holy temple, -in the Lord: See it is here that you are also being built up together for an habitation of Almighty God, through His Marvelous Spirit! Well, think of that!

    Christ in Us!, the ‘hope’ of glory!

    YaHooooooo!

    Remember also, it is contained in scripture, Behold, I lay in Zion a Stone, one chosen out, a Cornerstone, Highly Honored and Precious, and the one who rests ‘their’ faith on Him, shall ‘positively’ not be disappointed!  Ching! Ching!

    Love, cuz He does!

    Blessings! ta U’All…

    ‘Ipr♥ay4U’

    S㋡py
    ___
    Jadis: “…enter my rest, dear children?”  hmmm…
    C.S. Lewis: The Chronicles of Narnia – “Jadis, the White Witch”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ghnA3-IqX8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Aslin:  “…I have come to take you home!” BBC’s The Chronicles of Narnia  
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oN-ATCVIyM&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  76. Seeker, I fear that you aren’t getting it when you write about “so many missed opportunities.” I have a strong suspicion that Furtick doesn’t feel they did anything wrong and, given the opportunity, would handle it the exact same way if the situation arose again. This isn’t a case of some overly zealous church security guard getting out of line. This IS simply the way things are done at Elevation. Nothing, nothing at all, can get in the way of the carefully scripted, choreographed show going on.

    Also, did you know that your boy Chandler spoke at this “church” back in January?

  77. “This is just another idiotic outgrowth from the Encounter Groups of the 70s”
    Many moons ago, in the last century, I was a 16-year-old church member in a youth group. The youth leader was a prominent psychologist. One evening after some fun activity, we were sitting around “sharing” our feelings and struggles. Well–the other kids were “sharing” but I and another shy introvert were staying quiet. The shrink/leader called us by name to share what we were thinking, adding that he didn’t feel he knew us very well. I now wanted to disappear into some “distraction-free environment” but couldn’t say THAT, so could only decline twice to “share” anything at all. I wouldn’t have dreamt of “sharing” the underlying darkness of my heart, which was that I didn’t really believe in Jesus, and felt like a damned hypocrite going to church. About a year later that would change as I encountered Christ and he shone his glorious light into my darkness. Also it came out around then that the counselor, his wife, the pastor, and pastor’s wife were “sharing” a little too much in an all-too-close little encounter group.

  78. Alan
    I have read that horror story of the pajama games. That is what put him on my radar. we will write about this soon.

  79. Alan –

    I read the link you posted above about Noble’s organization. That stuff is as putrid as what has gone on at SGM, just in a different way. Churches are actually scary places these days. When the goal is more focused on power than on Jesus Christ I see that all kinds of miseries will result. What happened to that man and his family is awful. To think it was perpetrated by an organization claiming to be a church is beyond comprehension.

  80. AOR Report First Glance

    It’s the bloggers who are causing the most trouble. hahahahahahahahahahaha

  81. Deb –

    In a comment above you referenced an interview and that it could be read “here.” There is no link posted. When you get a minute could you post that link. No hurry.

  82. Alan,

    I don’t know much about Elevation–my observation on the missed opportunity was from the report itself.

    All I know to “get” is the obvious truth that they failed massively in their responsibility as a church to this family.

    I have no clue if they will make the necessary changes, or if no change will ever occur because of the choreographed show as you say…

    All I know is they lost a great opportunity to show some love and compassion.

    And to answer your question, yes, I was told on here that he preached at Elevation. Think he is even going back there if I am not mistaken to preach soon. I have also seen him preach alongside Rob Bell and others who I am sure Chandler doesn’t align with wholeheartedly.

    I have also seen him talk to Furtick on a video, and the two didn’t look like they were exactly on the same page.

    Point is, Not sure if you are trying to advocate the guilt by association thing, but I personally don’t see a problem with him preaching at this church via a request, no matter the flaws involved.

    Certainly causes me to pay more attention to things, and I have been doing so.

    One more thing, he is not “my boy”.

    He is a pastor who I respect in regards to much of what he has said in times, although I don’t agree with everything he has said. I also respect his commitment to God during his trial of cancer, a commitment that inspired me personally when my father was diagnosed with a life threatening cancer.

  83. Randall –

    I am so sorry about what happened to your daughter. I will keep her in prayer, along with other children who have turned from God as a result of leaders gone psycho (IMO).

  84. Unless of course we hire a “professional” to run the blogs to guide people away from sinful behavior. Also, they recommend that SGM hire some professionals as well. Wonder if AOR is wanting to provide the professionals. Funny thing-I wonder if AOR understands that, without the blogs, they wouldn’t have gotten this gig in the first place? Oh yeah, aren’t they releasing the report to via blogs?

  85. Seeker – I don’t think Furtick or his associates give a damn about people like that disabled child and his family.

    Honestly, anyone who starts a site dealing with “pastoral fashion” (yes, it’s true) has their priorities totally screwed up.

    They are about numbers and $$$$$$$, not the Gospel. I think it’s a corporate HQ masquerading as a church.

  86. Randall

    There are no words to express how such a report makes me angry. I am praying for your daughter. Oh yeah, and the Calvinista types have an out. They can act like dirt balls and say that anyone who gets hurt by them and walks away from the faith weren’t the elect to begin with. I’ve got news for some of them. I am not so sure that they are the “elect” as well.

  87. Seeker, I totally agree with the comment above from numo. That was precisely my point: In their eyes, they didn’t miss any opportunity at all. In their eyes, they did the right thing to keep the show rolling along. It’s a mindset that says, people don’t matter, what matters is us and how important we are, and the show must roll on.

    I’ve heard the argument that says that poeple will speak at places where they don’t fully endorse the “pastor.” I understand that. However, I some cases are so eggregious that it would be wise to pass on speaking there. To me, Elevation is one of those places. I know you don’t care, Chandler doesn’t care, and neither does anyone else, but I lost of ton of respect for Chandler because he chose to speak there.

  88. That AoR thing is just nuts – do *any* of their staff have actual professional (“worldly”-type ;)) training in psych, sociology, conflict resolution (there are good degree programs these days) or…???

    And they immediately refer to people in a “conflicted” organization having “sinful” and “worldly” responses… sounds like code for bloggers to me.

    The fact that they start the report with tons of disclaimers shows that something is very, very wrong with the whole deal. (If “deal” is the right word – am not so sure ab out that!)

  89. Alan – Stephanie Drury (of the Stuff Christian Culture Likes blog and Facebook page) has been posting all kinds of stuff about Furtick and his pals for the past two years – mostly things that they post on their own websites and blogs.

    That’s where I 1st heard about what happened at Elevation’s 2011 Easter service… so I’m not surprised that Furtick is turning up here at TWW.

  90. Thank you for all of the kind words about my son. Thank you, Sopy, for your words about my letter to C. That was a very difficult thing to write and I still think about him regularly.

    Before finding TWW, I was aching for community with other believers. Thank you all for being part of my church.

  91. Alan and Numo,

    I gues I am not as informed as you about this church.

    BUT, To say that I don’t care is absurd…I practically agreed with you, but I am not surprised that once again I am trying to bring clarity to a comment on here that I made.

    You can continue not to respect Chandler all you want as well, no problem for me. I have reasons for why I respect him, and I don’t feel the need to continue to repeat them over and over.

  92. Seeker,

    You wrote-

    “And to answer your question, yes, I was told on here that he preached at Elevation. Think he is even going back there if I am not mistaken to preach soon. I have also seen him preach alongside Rob Bell and others who I am sure Chandler doesn’t align with wholeheartedly.

    I have also seen him talk to Furtick on a video, and the two didn’t look like they were exactly on the same page.”

    If you are referring to a video you saw here, I posted one not too long ago where they were discussing how the reformed world has not much in common with Furtick, or something like that. Matt had said he had looked him up, researched his church and talked on the phone with him…is that the that video you mean?

    Then I posted a part of Chandler’s sermon from Furtick’s Orange Conference in which Matt said, “This (Elevation) is a way. It is not the only way. God is for Elevation church.”

    I wondered then and I wonder now how Matt knows for sure that God is for Elevation church? I mean, he told them all He was FOR them. Was it a lie? If God is for Elevation church, surely Matt would not be against something God is for…would he?

    He is not associating, he is promoting…even declaring God too is promoting Elevation church, by being FOR it. How does he know this?

  93. Numo –

    A commentor on Survivor had a similar comment. I expressed thoughts along those lines as well. There are numerous comments in the AoR report about “the blogs.” Someone on Survivor even commented that some of the statements in the report sounded like they were written by CJ.

  94. “Stand Back!”

    HowDee YaAll,

    “It’s a mindset that says, people don’t matter, what matters is us and how important we are, and the show must roll on.” -Alan, TWW

    The calvinista steam roller must roll on?

    hmmm…

    Give me steam?

    hum, hum,hum, …♪ ♫ Stand Back!

    …♪ ♫ What are those calvinistas doing sniffing at my soul?
    They’re on to something, picking up…
    picking up…
    Picking up this heat, this heat?

    (grin)

    Stand Back!

    …♪ ♫ Theyz a sayin’ everybody doin’ this here ‘sin’nosedivin’
    Hold your breath, count to five
    Backslap, boobytrap,
    Cover it up in bubblewrap
    Room shake, earthquake
    Find a way to avoid the ‘spin’
    It’s going to blow, it’s going to break
    This calvinesta’s stuff is more than I can take..

    Stand back!

    (grin)

    hahahahahahahaha

    S㋡py
    ___
    Comic relief: Peter Gabirel – “Steam”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNeoI7qe30g&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  95. BTW, already have had one man come on this blog and threaten us about visiting Furtick’s church. That clenched the deal for us. Notice to Furtick’s fans: TWW is going on the road soon. Don’t worry. We report what we see. — Dee

    Just stay out of carports at midnight, OK?

  96. Anyone ever notice how this group confession stuff and talking about DETAILS of sin (sex, rape, etc)even if justs to the leaders sort of mirrors society with all the reality tv stuff? — Anon1

    I always figure Confession with all the Juicy Details is just how Church Ladies and Truly Reformed get their porn fix.

    That, David, sounds exactly like the “discipleship partner” relationship that members of the Crossroads Movement/ICOC were required to have. We were supposed to confess *every* sin. I don’t have a problem with discipleship partners–in fact, I think we NEED people we can confide in–but this took “discipling” to an unhealthy level. — Tina

    In the old Soviet Union, this was called “Enlightened Self-Criticism before Party Commissars” and was raised to a fine art.

  97. Mot –

    I think we are looking in at those who have caged themselves and they are looking out between the bars with fists clenched and red, sweaty faces screaming don’t mess with our theology; it makes us feel important! — Bridget2

    You have heard the phrase “The gates of Hell are locked from the inside”, haven’t you?

  98. The story I just read about Perry Noble is freaking insane. If Noble is a calvinista why on earth has someone not said anything to him? Seriously, he makes Driscoll look normal…

  99. Eagle –

    SGM separated the different issues that had come up in order to “handle” them. You know “divide and conquer.” The issues with Detwiler and Tomczak are under separate cover. You can’t have all the issues lumped together . . . might look bad and all.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the T4G guys saw the report before SGM members. Wouldn’t surprise me.

  100. Robin,

    I totally agree. Just flat out horrific. And then followed basically by denial. The worst part to me is that this clown has been fully endorsed by James MacDonald, Driscoll and all the other rock stars…..er….pastors. Birds of a feather……

  101. “You have heard the phrase ‘The gates of Hell are locked from the inside’, haven’t you?” -HUG, TWW

    HowDee YaAll,

    CS Lewis’ statement that the doors of Hell are locked from the inside?

    hmmm…

    “I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; that the doors of hell are locked on the inside.” The Problem Of Pain –C.S. Lewis Chap. 8 para. 11, p 127

    What?

    In C.S. Lewis tome: “The Problem of Pain”:  , It appears to mean that people keep themselves in Hell. The lock is on the inside of the door, which means they locked it and (potentially, at least) could unlock it: 

    [larger quote] “Finally, it is objected that the ultimate loss of a single soul means the defeat of omnipotence. And so it does. In creating beings with free will, omnipotence from the outset submits to the possibility of such defeat.  What you call defeat, I call miracle: for to make things which are not Itself, and thus to become, in a sense, capable of being resisted by its own handiwork, is the most astonishing and unimaginable of all the feats we attribute to the Deity.  I willingly believe that the damned are, in one sense, successful, rebels to the end; ‘that the doors of hell are locked on the inside.’ ”

    Is the proverbial ‘icy waters’ a waitin’ the members of four-stacked SGM or will it be sand, bump, dunk, grouse, or cage? 

    Sopy ㋡  
    ___
    Note: C.S. Lewis’ meaning is also illustrated in ” The Great Divorce.” 

    Comic relief: Payton Klassen – “Hotel California” 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U9fRAxwsbk&feature=youtube_gdata_player

    Wait for it…wait for it …Train vs. Tornado 
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azV5bC2br-Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  102. From Page 5, AoR Report

    “It should be noted that AoR received a wide array of perspectives ranging from those who were highly critical, angry, bitter, or mistrustful of SGM and its leaders to those who were very supportive, comfortable, and trusting of SGM and its leaders.

    Of the 250 different individuals that provided input to AoR, about half were estimated to be no longer directly associated with SGM. These included past SGM leaders, pastors, and members of SGM churches. Considering that SGM has approximately 28,000 people in its churches, AoR received direct information from less than one half of one percent of the total current membership.”

    WOW! 28,000 people belong to this “family of churches”?

    Assuming there are 100 member churches, that averages out to 280 members in each congregation.

  103. Wait — I might come across as a dumbo here, but I had no idea Francis Chan was a Calvinista.

    Oh that makes me SO VERY SAD. 🙁 I actually admired him for some of his work & missions. Sigh…is no one safe?

  104. Late to the comments, but…

    Let me get this straight. The church is so loud they offer you EAR PLUGS when you walk in and they pitched a fit when a child made sounds?

  105. …as it reads in Corinthians….God has chosen the foolish things of this world to shame the wise, and the weak things to shame the strong.

  106. I perused this AoR report. Seemed that when an observation was made which put SGM in a negative light, it was often sandwiched between either positives or “explanations” which mitigated/downplayed the negative. Attention was deflected away from legitimate error. To me, this watered down the “honest appraisal” notion.

    I look forward to its analysis.

  107. Viki, Headless Unicorn Guy: Thanks for your prayers. I can hear the pain in your hearts as I read you comments.

    Bridget: Thanks. You sound like a genuine person.

    Dee: How come I have never met a Calvinist who did not believe he was “elect?”

  108. I realize that some of my comments may come across harsh or rude. Probably from reading too much A.W. Tozer. I find it more than interesting that a man (who was labeled “out of touch” by his generation) has so much to speak to our generation.

  109. Eagle –

    If you are referring to CJ. He will do nothing but feel avenged. I have come to the conclusion after reading the blogs and docs that CJ lets others carry out his bidding while he stays “humbly” behind the scenes.

  110. Diane,

    You said,

    “Then I posted a part of Chandler’s sermon from Furtick’s Orange Conference in which Matt said, “This (Elevation) is a way. It is not the only way. God is for Elevation church.”

    I wondered then and I wonder now how Matt knows for sure that God is for Elevation church? I mean, he told them all He was FOR them. Was it a lie? If God is for Elevation church, surely Matt would not be against something God is for…would he?

    He is not associating, he is promoting…even declaring God too is promoting Elevation church, by being FOR it. How does he know this?”

    I will try my best to answer your questions, but I fully don’t know why Matt Chandler lands where he does on this, I can only assume so much, and I am not a big fan of assumptions.

    It is pretty clear that God is “FOR” His Bride in scripture, which includes not only the overall CHURCH or BODY, but the make up of local Christians churches throughout the world that includes the BODY.

    This does not mean that every thing that claims it is a “church” is in actuality a church…so the question remains…Does Elevation Church consist of a local community of the Bride Of Christ, and function as the Body of Christ?

    I, personally, cannot answer that question because I don’t know anything about Elevation except the sentiments expressed on this board and the obviously wrong approach to handling a disabled child in this board post.

    To me, the latter is not enough evidence to dismiss Elevation as an ACTUAL local church or deny that God is for it, because of some commentors sentiments on a blog or even something that was incredibly wrong as in the story above The jury is still out for me, although I have some serious questions regarding this church and other’s churches handling of certain things. I would not dismiss this place as a church until I could be a part of it to see it first hand, or until they passed into the “crazy cult” land with the Kool-Aid…etc..etc..Maybe many of you have seen this already..I would be intrigued to see why..

    In my opinion, Matt Chandler does not agree or align wholeheartedly with Furtick, but I do not think he would dismiss Elevation as part of the “way” because of the latter.

    I believe Matt Chandler finds Elevation to be a “way” just as many other churches throughout the world are the “way”. I have heard Matt say the same thing in regards to local churches in the DFW area. He often says that The Village is a “way”, while “X” church is also a “way”, although those churches may be different. He then says that God is for both because they consist of a body of believers.

    I know there are some serious issues in many of these churches as Dee’s post reveals. I do not doubt that these are problems that should be adressed and resolved.

    Here is the thing though…The early church had their own share of problems…Problems that were quite serious. Even some of the apostles handled some things REALLY poorly within these local churches…(The book of Acts is filled with these things, not to mention the letters written by Paul to these local churches)…

    I believe if TWW existed in the 1st century, I am sure Dee or Deb would be right on the scene revealing to the blogosphere the problems found in these local contexts…

    So here is the question—-

    Was God NOT for the early church because of their problems?

    Were they NOT the “way” because of their issues?

    True, many churches who increased with problems found some strong words from Jesus Christ as revealed in Revelation…and many churches today fit the bill with the latter. Maybe Elevation is included in that category.

    I confess, I fully don’t “get” all the things about Elevation Church. I am sure many of you have far more first hand information regarding this church and the issues within.

    Some of the language in the “code” needs a closer look, and might be taking things a bit too far..but some of it I have no problems with… but in spite of that, I could assume (and probablly be right) that many in that church are genuinely a part of the body of Christ, functioning as the body should. (Their website reveals the ministries they are part of in the name of Christ, their beliefs seem spot on, etc..)

    I can’t verify if all 19,000 professions of faith are genuine or if those within that number are disciples of Christ. Numbers and growth do not often reveal the truth—but who is to say that thouands of that number are not genuine conversions and disciples of Christ?

    I believe Chandler said God is FOR Elevation—-Not because of any “conspiracy” or some “ulterior motive”…Not because Chandler applauds churches removing disabled children from church services..I believe he said that God is for Elevation because God is for His Church…I believe he said that because he saw Elevation as a part of the body of Christ, although it has some pretty obvious blemishes and some weird approaches on some things.

    It is entirely possible that Chandler has missed a lot of the information that you and others are enlightened on..and he may find himself regretting saying those words one day…It is also possible that Matt saw some problems within Elevation, but saw the overall church as part of the Body of Christ.

    So here is my take on this. Most of this is my opinion based on nothing more than assumptions.

    I could be way off…and would not be surprised if I was wrong, I have been wrong MANY times before.

    I (and you) may find many surprises when we stand before God one day about all kinds of churches and their practices..

  111. Deb –

    And it is SOOO Christ-like to want to cater to a certain age group — no? while excluding the old, impaired, and possibly ill. Yes, this is the message they want to give to the world.

  112. Bridget2,

    When the younger set can be separated from their parents and older adults, they are much easier to control…

  113. True Words,

    I used that in my post describing Chan. I did so because of Dee or Deb’s post on Platt and Chan, in which they said “two Calivnista’s I could grow to love”…

    I could be wrong, so Dee and Deb correct me if I am.

    Don’t write Chan off yet and start getting sad. I personally don’t see him as a Calvinista, although he has spoken in many of the same venues and conferences as other Calvinistas..

    He has quite the different story a part from Chandler and others combined.

    Although I respect Chandler, Platt, and Chan for various reasons, Chan seems to have it quite together..and has escaped the mega scene to follow a call for inner city missions.

    He has a blog that updates occasionally on the work of his local church.. He and his small community of a church have done some pretty cool things..

    Google him and check it out..Hopefully it will bring some perspective..

    Which kind of adds a point here..just because someone runs in similar circles or could be considered a “Calvinista”, doesn’t mean you should lose hope on them or dismiss them.

    Some have proven by their actions that they are real and genuine.

    I have personally perceived and seen some things in all three of these men reasons why I find them to be real and genuine..

    Just some thoughts..

  114. Deb –

    28,000 probably includes children!!! And we know the child population is large. It should have been an adult count not an ALL count – sheesh.

  115. Seeker,

    Thank you for sharing your opinions. “I believe he said that God is for Elevation because God is for His Church…I believe he said that because he saw Elevation as a part of the body of Christ, although it has some pretty obvious blemishes and some weird approaches on some things.”

    I realize that is why he said that…he believes it. Or he doesn’t and had some other motive for saying it. God is certainly for those who have put their trust and faith in Him…no doubt.

    I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that Elevation embraces a mildy wof/prosperity gospel. I would have to examine the scriptures and see if God is for that. If He is…all is good.

  116. Deb –

    On the separating the younger crowd out to control . . . So they really don’t have any “elders” and they eliminate all “wisdom” gained from life and experience. That is the most FOOLISH (as in young and foolish) move they could make. I believe these churches will pay a high price for creating churches like this. I pray the young people seek wisdom and are not harmed.

  117. “True, many churches who increased with problems found some strong words from Jesus Christ as revealed in Revelation…and many churches today fit the bill with the latter. Maybe Elevation is included in that category.”

    What does it mean in the letters to the churches in Rev when God says He will remove His lampstand? One of many reasons this would happen is because of the Nicolaitans which God hates. It means “conqueror of the people” and is serious business when people follow man instead of Christ and call it the Body of Christ.

  118. I am in my mid-30s and am definitely on the younger side of the regular attendees at my church. And the churches who deliberately aim at the younger crowd don’t know what they’re missing. My best friends there are of my parents’ generation and I love them immensely.

    Why would God only be interested in the 18-30 crowd? How does this make sense?

    (And thanks, Deb. If that came across inarticulately, well, I was in a state of fury at the time. I hope a few heads deservedly roll over the way that child and his family were treated, however, and I’ve calmed down now!)

  119. Deb –

    Actually it should be a household/family unit count. A church could have 300, but only 80 family units represented. It is hard to believe their are 28,000 adults.

  120. Diane,

    SOME of the language on their website seems to point in that direction…but I haven’t looked at it that closely.

    I watched the first interview that Deb posted on Furtick earlier..will have to watch the other two later.

    He has a lot to talk about audacious faith…etc…etc…

    I don’t think it is wrong to assume that God wants us to have faith, or even to have faith to “expect great things from God, attempt great things from God”….

    As long as those “great things” line up according to what God sees as great.

    Health, Wealth, and Prosperity for our own selfish gain does not line up in with the latter in my opinion…although I believe God blesses us with health, wealth, and prosperity at times to primarily bless others for the sake of Christ.

    I have seen no teaching in scripture that says Health, Wealth, and Prosperity will always be the case for the people of God..in fact..most of the time..it is direclty opposite..

    I will look more into Furtick…interesting to think Chandler would speak at his church if he is heavily into that stuff, because Chandler has condemned the Health, Wealth, Proseperity movement many times from the pulpit at the Village. (Although maybe Chandler has chosen to overlook this—I don’t know really..interesting to say the least)..

    Thanks Diane for the conversation..Have a great night!

  121. Blessings upon you, sisters.

    I found this blog a few months ago (when the MH/Petry thing went public), and I have been following it ever since. I’ve never attended an oppressive church, but my IFB high school (KJV-only, etc) was enough to leave a lasting impression.

    One of the ways I have connected with what this blog post is talking about is read Barbara Brown Taylor’s “Altars in the World.” She talks about how turning up soil in her garden can be a worship-filled experience– and, indeed, it should be! She gets a little mystic for my taste at times, but has wonderful things to say.

    Here’s a quote from the book: ““To make bread or love, to dig in the earth, to feed an animal or cook for a stranger—these activities require no extensive commentary, no lucid theology. All they require is someone willing to bend, reach, chop, stir. Most of these tasks are so full of pleasure that there is no need to complicate things by calling them holy. And yet these are the same activities that change lives, sometimes all at once and sometimes more slowly, the way dripping water changes stone. In a world where faith is often construed as a way of thinking, bodily practices remind the willing that faith is a way of life.””

  122. To David and Dee,

    I love the video of Jonathan and Charlotte. Thank you, Dee.

    I celebrate the fact that I am a new creation in Christ. The sin question has been settled by my Savior and Lord Jesus Christ.

    David’s post reminds me of the worst experience in my Christian life: redemption group at Mars Hill Church. It was a nightmare for me and it took me a long time to get over this horror. Let us not underestimate the damage done to one’s psyche due to spiritual abuse in a church setting. Ever since my experience, I do not touch Mars Hill and redemption group with a ten-foot pole. Based on what I have experienced, I do not recommend “redemption group” as practiced by Mars Hill church to anyone unless you want to go through the underworld of pain, horror and humiliation by the leaders of these groups (pastors, group leaders…)

  123. Diane, I only disagree with one word you wrote: “mildly”. I don’t think there is anything mild about the false word/faith “gospel” that Furtick is after. He has already cozied up to noted word faith clowns like TD Jakes and Joel Osteen.

  124. About the AoR report: I skipped through to their recommendations and just about lost it!

    *

    Seeker, you know how you found out about SGM and CJ Mahaney? Well… I think Furtick isn’t much better, though his problems lie in somewhat different areas.

    Still, celebrity “pastors” tend in the same direction, generally… (in my opinion, anyway).

  125. Alan and Diane,

    I am intrigued to say the least about Furtick. Chandler is so much in opposition to the likes of Osteen theologically that I found it somewhat shocking that he would preach alongside Furtick if he stands with Osteen…but I have seen him preach alongside Bell and others as well, and I know Chandler does not affirm Bell’s latest endeavor.

    Confusing to me…you bet…because it doesnt quite fit what I know about Chandler… Until I stumbled across this after googling. From one blog to another…take a look at this…actually read the summary and listen to the sermon if ya want..Look at the WHOLE context and not just a sound byte.

    Puts some things in perspective really…have more to say but I should have been a sleep an hour ago..

    I don’t think Chandler is affirming any false gospel, I think he was trying to correct this false teaching by facing it head on…

    Matt Chandler Exalts Christ, Confronts

    Hmmm, maybe that whole guilt by association thing has more too it than we think sometimes…black and white?? Not always, sometimes there are shades of grey..

  126. “The Church Of All Our Dreams”

    HowDeeYaAll,

    “Let me get this straight. The church is so loud they offer you EAR PLUGS when you walk in and they pitched a fit when a child made sounds?” -Sallie, TWW

    “Blaring music is a pretty clever way to keep the old fuddie duddies away…” -Deb, TWW

    “And it is SOOO Christ-like to want to cater to a certain age group — no? while excluding the old, impaired, and possibly ill. Yes, this is the message they want to give to the world.” “they really don’t have any “elders” and they eliminate all “wisdom” gained from life and experience…”
    – Bridget2, TWW

    “Why would God only be interested in the 18-30 crowd? How does this make sense? -Rachel, TWW 

    “Theyz turnz da lights off too!, and feed us spiritual mushrooms” -Sopy (I guess datz better den de odder stuff) -snicker-

    hum, hum,hum, …♪ ♫ Bankrupt churches are failin’ all around, its time I was on my way. Thanks to you, I’m much ailin’ for such a difficult stay? So now its time for me to go, still gotz the bible ta lights my way. For now I smell the spiritual storm clouds, and with it usually comes da pain, and its headed this a’ way…

     …♪ ♫ Gotta find the church of all our dreams
    That  aint tellin no lies,
    Its time to ramble on…

     …♪ ♫ Got no time to for spreadin roots, the hurts just too bad, the time has come to be gone. Though to our spiritual health we drank grape juice a thousand times, and shook a thousands hands…

     …♪ ♫ Ah, sometimes I grow so tired of the control,
    But I know i’ve got one thing I got to do,
    Its time to ramble on…

     …♪ ♫ How years ago in da days of old, when hope filled the sanctuary, before the dark forges of Mordor took my church away…and nows the time, the time is now, to sing my song. Mines a tale that can now be told, a Gallum came, the evil one too!, who crept up and slipped my church away…

     …♪ ♫ Gotta find the church of all our dreams. 
    That  aint tellin no lies,
    Its time to ramble on…

    * Good News?

     I will lift up my eyes to the hills, -where does my help come from?  My help comes from the Lord, who made heaven and earth. The Lord watches over me, and He will not let my foot slip, He who watches over me will not slumber, nor sleep! 

    The Lord will keep you too! from all harm, He will watch over your life; the Lord will watch over your comin’ n’ go’ins, both now and forever more!  Thatz what Ipr♥ay4U’. 

    Hurray!

    Blessings! ta U’All…

    S㋡py   
    ___
    Loud Music? -Lord!, “Hear Us From Heaven…”
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTdHTfs4rYg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

  127. I love the blue bird eggs, Dee. Such a beautiful colour! Looking forward to seeing the nestlings in due course.

  128. “Tina
    I believe that the differently abled are God’s gift to us. Through them we begin to see that faith is not a matter of doing. I volunteer at a center for the severely handicapped. These children are unable to speak and are mostly fed by G tube. But, every once in awhile, i get the biggest grin from them. Those smiles light up my life and i tell them (I don’t think the understand but I say it anyway) that I can live a week on one of those smiles. I see God more clearly in them than I do with some of these mega idols.”

    Although I dislike dealing with autism on a daily basis, I also wonder if Matthew would be Matthew *without* the autism. He doesn’t have a mean bone in his body. This past Sunday one of the men who help with the youth and his daughter talked about a mission trip they went on. At the end, Matthew yelled out, “Good job, Mr. Scott and Rachel!” I told Mr. Scott later what Matthew said, and he laughed and told me, “I love Matthew!” We’ve only had one occasion when we were asked to take Matthew out . . . and that was when he was about four, five or six, and the people who said that didn’t know him or our circumstances. Of course, we’ve been fortunate. There are plenty of other people in other churches who can’t say the same.

  129. Alan:

    You wrote:

    “Diane, I only disagree with one word you wrote: “mildly”. I don’t think there is anything mild about the false word/faith “gospel” that Furtick is after. He has already cozied up to noted word faith clowns like TD Jakes and Joel Osteen.”

    I will have to agree with you Alan…especially in light of the revelation from Furtick that TD Jakes is the best preacher in the world, as he announced at his Orange conference. Thanks for the correction.

  130. Estelle
    I have some great pictures. I have some funny stories about the bluebird and his family.

  131. Free
    I am trying to gather information on the so called “Redemption Groups.” Why? I consider myself more well informed than many Christians about the goings on in the faith. So, if I didn’t know about them, i can assure you that vast majority of the pew sitters do not as well. I want to expose this as soon as possible. I fear that other Calvinista churches, like Acts 29, might initiate such groups. Deb and I exists on the blogosphere to expose potentially spiritually abusive situations. Anyway you could help us explore this would be most appreciated.

  132. Oh I know l- I’m not instantly dismissive of someone just because they’re a Calvinist or because their theology is different from mine. HOWEVER – when I discover certain people in leadership/power who are professing Calvinists, it just makes me tend to shy away from them and their teachings. I’ve been led down paths before (Vision forum, anyone?) where people are presented ideas as good and then before you know it you’re neck-deep in a bunch of rules all because you drank the kool aid.

    Because of my past with church abuse I’m particularly quick to jump away at any sign of things not being 100% well. It’s my issue, I admit freely.

  133. Seeker:

    From the article you posted:

    “To stand up before thousands and thousands of people, knowing that his message would not be well received?”

    Yes, that is curious. Not well received? It sounded very well received to me. I am not sure what Furtick personally thought of it although I did hear some amens from him and saw him taking notes, nodding at times. There was quite a bit of cheering, clapping and amens from the crowd for such an “offensive” sermon. Furtick preaches Christ died and rose for our sins. And wof-ers understand the “bible isn’t about them” as Chandler repeatedly said. They know God gets the glory -not them…as they order God about to do their will. They are quite happy to give God all glory.

    “I am intrigued to say the least about Furtick. Chandler is so much in opposition to the likes of Osteen theologically that I found it somewhat shocking that he would preach alongside Furtick if he stands with Osteen…but I have seen him preach alongside Bell and others as well, and I know Chandler does not affirm Bell’s latest endeavor.”

    He didn’t just preach along side of Furtick. He declared Elevation chuch a way which God is for. Why he said it- who knows…how he can declare this with certainty and say it in this conference knowing it would be videotaped is puzzling.

    “Hmmm, maybe that whole guilt by association thing has more too it than we think sometimes…black and white?? Not always, sometimes there are shades of grey..”

    I have not mentioned guilt by association. This is not guilt by association. At the Orange conference Chandler promoted Elevation church…and not only he…but apparently God Himself promotes it.

  134. Missing Beauty Amongst the Sin
    I wish I were a poet — only way to come close to describing.
    2 years back, early July in the north of Scotland.
    My wife and I had a long day traveling- worn out. 
    10PM approaching our B&B overlooking the loch.
    Darkness covered the land, and thick darkness the peoples.
    Showers, rain, deluge — cats, dogs, and pitchforks. 
    I fancied 8 people and thousands of animals floating by in a really large boat.
    Couldn’t get up the driveway– too much water coming down.
    Finally inside– checked in– Sae sorry aboot the weather!”
    Drying off, turning in. I glanced outside.
    Ooohhhh! Oooooooohhhhhh!!! honey, get up! Come look! 
    Somewhere out over the Atlantic, a window had opened for the setting sun.
    Its rays fell upon the opposite shore. Flame-red rocks. Flame-orange torrents of water pouring, gushing, falling down the slopes– tumbling into the loch.
    Heather and brambles some unearthly shade. Pitch-black sky above.
    Beauty unimaginable — the light shone in the darkness.
    For 5 minutes. Oh bother! I left my camera in the car!
    “That was the most beautiful thing I ever saw in my life!” 
    “Well,” I quickly recovered, “the second most”. 🙂 
    Thank you Lord! Tears fell like rain.

     
         

  135. Vulnerability is a key word.

    Sin-seeking, Redemption Group, Mars Hill small group

    Another term might be: “Vulnerability Group”.

    Strategy: Get people to let go of their natural hesitance to expose themselves and become vulnerable.

    Goal: For some I’m sure it’s predatory – a way to control people through veiled fear and intimidation. For others who have been trained to be a leader of a Vulnerability Group they are told that getting people to become vulnerable and share their stuff will lead to healing and group cohesiveness / closeness and therefore good.

    I went through the Mars Hill small group leader training although not as part of Mars Hill. The person leading the training for our church was something like a “Divisional Coach” at Mars Hill and came out to “help” us.

    Anyway, here’s how it’s supposed to work.

    Leader: Make yourself vulnerable to your group by sharing something about yourself that would make everyone in the group uncomfortable if they were to have to share it. This will create awkwardness and the group will naturally try to cover it up to make you feel less vulnerable. Don’t let them. Tell them they instead need to probe deeper, to get at the heart of the issue. Tell them they must press through the extreme uncomfort in order to reach true release and healing. Tell them deep underlying sin is what keeps people from letting it all out and that ultimately they will never be free until they do let it all out.

    Group Member: Starts to feel all kinds of internal pressure. Maybe there is something really wrong with me for not wanting to become exposed and vulnerable. Maybe I do have deep “sin” issues. If I don’t share or leave the group everyone will think I’m some sort of evil perverted monster. If I do share people will always think of me as a ______.

    The result of this is people become pressured into exposing themselves and then after a few weeks, a person’s natural resistance becomes less and less. Then in a sick way it becomes normal behavior to share stuff about you that basically is just plain inappropriate to share in a group setting let alone a group where people may barely know each other.

    I have found that the long term result of this (while maybe not during the time period of the meetings but later down the road) is shame that you went against that little voice in your head telling you something is really wrong with this. It doesn’t free you from whatever your revealed “sin issue” was it just creates more issues. It also causes one to feel “labeled” with whatever thing it is they share – becoming even more bound up by it.

    It’s pure darkness.

    True openness and vulnerability happen in the context of a respectful, PROVEN, loving and caring relationship. In this type of relationship there can be true release resulting in the exact opposite of “labeling”. I believe there is a time and place for openness and vulnerability and that it can be healing but it is certainly NOT in a Vulnerability Group setting.

  136. “Please feel free to share with us the beauty that you see in this world.”

    Our new church had an Easter Egg Hunt last weekend. I could say a lot of good things about the setting, the teamwork, the weather, etc. What I hope I never forget was the beauty of seeing a pastor notice a child and turn and say hello to the child by name!

    Because of what I else have seen in this life, I know that some children, and adults, can spend years in a church and never be spoken to like that.

  137. Ladies,

    You girls have hit on an interesting topic with this one! Where C.J. and SGM are concerned, the more that I read, the more I think that it is inaccurate to refer to these guys as New Calvinists. I say inaccurate because the term is too broad – in reality I think they are much closer to the Neo-Puritan movement (although none of the Puritans would have recognized the neo-puritans as their near brethren). The reason I doubt the Puritans would have recognized the neo-puritans as birds of a similar feather is the incredible over-emphasis on sin. Even the Puritans didn’t believe that the point of preaching was to expose sin in every single sermon! This neurotic focus on sin is something very new…and very dangerous. John Owen’s “The Mortification of Sin” bears no resemblance to what we see in C.J. Mahaney; I suspect that this narrow neurotic emphasis on sin is nothing more than a stick with which to beat their congregations and keep them compliant.

    Furitck is another animal entirely. I was raised in the Queen City and have 2 very close friends that attend Elevation, and I’ve visited there with them several times. Beyond what others have mentioned above, I’d point out a few other things. First, Furtick really seems to be something of a Rick Warren/Purpose Drive Church 2.0. The other thing that struck me as I listened to him preach was that I’ve never seen someone so consistently engage in eisegesis, or alternatively, ignore the text before them entirely. Chris Rosebrough at Pirate Christian Radio has coined the term “narsigesis” (narcissistic eisegesis) to describe Furtick’s preaching style. I think he’s dead on the mark with that.

    From my perspective, we have two massive problems facing the church, with a symptom in common. You have the neo-puritans on one side, with their unbiblical focus on sin in the life of the believer, and the Purpose Driven 2.0 guys on the other side, with their near-constant Bible-twisting and eisegesis. But the common symptom is the sheer unmitigated accumulation of unquestioned power in the hands of the supposed pastor.

    May God have mercy on His Church…

  138. Diane,

    You Wrote:

    “Yes, that is curious. Not well received? It sounded very well received to me. I am not sure what Furtick personally thought of it although I did hear some amens from him and saw him taking notes, nodding at times. There was quite a bit of cheering, clapping and amens from the crowd for such an “offensive” sermon. Furtick preaches Christ died and rose for our sins. And wof-ers understand the “bible isn’t about them” as Chandler repeatedly said. They know God gets the glory -not them…as they order God about to do their will. They are quite happy to give God all glory.”

    It is entirely possible they accepted it well….That is not necessarily a bad thing. I still wonder why they failed to broadcast the message or took the video down though.

    When you say that WOF’s order God about to do their will, I think that sort of proves that they don’t believe God get’s all the glory and it shows that they believe the Bible is about them.

    Of course, they probablly don’t see it that way, but if they are claiming this, then this is where they land.

    Chandler stands against this, and that is why I think he preached that particular sermon to them. Notice he says at the very beginning, “This is for your joy, not your happiness”.

    He was not there to affirm their theology…I think He was their to show teach them the proper response to God as any teacher of the word would. I have heard Chandler say many times, that if you seek Jesus because of “X”, then that is a problem. We just need to seek Jesus. We need to desire him more than anything else (health, wealth, prosperity, etc).

    “He didn’t just preach along side of Furtick. He declared Elevation chuch a way which God is for. Why he said it- who knows…how he can declare this with certainty and say it in this conference knowing it would be videotaped is puzzling.”

    I agree Diane, it is a bit puzzling why he would say it with certainty. I guess we all say things sometimes that we can’t be completely certain about..No one can be 100 percent certain that God is for Elevation..so maybe his was careless in that aspect.

    However,

    As I said before, is it CERTAIN that God is for His Church? I think biblically we can answer that with a resounding yes. His Church includes those local church communities that include the Body of Christ.

    You said yourself that Furtick and Elevation preaches Christ died and was raised for our sins.

    Although I am not fully associated with the church and hardly know the extent their “wof” can get, It is probablly safe to say that it is home to a local body of of believers who is serving others in the name of Christ, who preaches the salvific message of Jesus Christ…etc.

    I think Chandler said Elevation is a way because of this…not because of their wof doctrine. I think Chandler said God is for Elevation, because God IS for his Church, and in the big picture I would say that Elevation IS a local church community.

    The WOF doctrine certainly gives them less credibility, but I would be hesitant to deny that they are a church all together, or even deny that God is for them.

    I personally don’t know what extent their teaching of this “wof” goes..and I am sure God, according to scripture, is not FOR the “wof” doctrine….BUT…I think there are many things at Elevation that God IS for.

    Again Diane…I am assuming here. I have no idea why Chandler said what he said…but I know for a fact he doesn’t align with the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel.

    I know you are not promoting him with guilt by association…Mentioned that because I have seen that sentiment multiple times on here…(birds of a feather, etc, etc)

    So what do you think? You are intrigued and puzzled by his comment. Why do you think he said this? You find a problem with his comment, so what is your ultimate suggestion regarding this problem with Chandler?

    Not asking the above with any criticism..just sincerely wondering what all this is leading you to “think” about him and his involvement with Elevation?

    Thanks for the response!

  139. To add a few more things to what David already wrote about “redemption groups”:

    1)”Redemption groups” look good paper only, the way they practice is harmful. I physically got sick and threw up when I got home after some intense sessions.

    2)If the person resists revealing things about himself for whatever reason, the group would shame him, gang up to attack, denounce him as prideful, hypocritical, out of touch, in a rather brutal manner. Accusations, judgments, shaming are leveled against those who do not play their game.

    2)The ugliest Christians are those whom I met in a redemption group at Mars Hill. I had never met anyone of them before walking into the first session; yet, they seemed to know all about my sins and wanted God to break my heart because of my sin. It felt like I was taken captive by the enemy and tortured so that they could get a confession out of me. Cruelty was the word. Is it reasonable to demand vulnerability from strangers? or is it sheer madness?

    3)The devil likes to hide himself behind religion and church groups to wreak havoc in the church and the people who run these groups do not see the spiritual warfare aspect of it. “Lord, forgive them because they do not know what they are doing.”

    Vital to the understanding of the Mars Hill Church problems are two key documents for all those who want to know:

    a) The ten-page letter from Paul Petry to “the Elders of Mars Hill Church” dated October 25, 2007 (posted on their website)
    b) “My story – by Jonna Petry” (on this website)

    I believe what the authors say in these document because I can relate to some extent.

    “the wounded person is left with a sense of having been raped, emotionally and spiritually… There is an ethos of authoritarianism and abuse” pervasive in this mega church.

    Will you join me to pray for Mars Hill Church?

  140. Seeker:

    “So what do you think? You are intrigued and puzzled by his comment. Why do you think he said this? You find a problem with his comment, so what is your ultimate suggestion regarding this problem with Chandler?”

    I do not know why he said it. My ultimate suggestion? Be a Berean.

  141. One of the pastors we didn’t here a lot about until recently is James Mac Donald. I take issue with who he endorces and supports. I believe that birds of a feather flock together. I use to listen to him but now I can’t. I’m surprised that we haven’t heard anything about him besides the Elephant Room deal. I suspect we will since he has taken a turn for the worse.

    Another Pastor that I recently been questioning is John Mac Arthur. A lot of what he says is right on but a lot of what he says is also very wrong. He thinks he is right about everything he preaches on and he also endorces Molher.

  142. @ Seeker and Diane,

    I can’t help but wonder if there’s another factor at work here. Seeker, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one and for arguement’s sake, I’ll say that Chandler isn’t a big fan of Furtick and that he went to that “church” to challenge people. I’m afraid though that Chandler “got played” and didn’t even realize it. Elephant Room 2 opened my eyes to a lot of things and one of them is that all of these celebrity type guys are looking to make associations with other “pastors”, in order to extend their own sphere of influence. I think it’s apparent that the average person on the street, or in the typical church, doesn’t delve very deeply into these guys or these matters. So, if the average guy who likes Chandler sees or hears that Chandler spoke at Elevation, then to him, Elevation and Furtick must be OK. He won’t even know that Chandler went there to challenge the people and not to endorse them. The damage is already done and Furtick has accomplished his purpose, his sphere of influence has been expanded. That’s why I think it was wrong for Chandler to speak there. I get that a pastor won’t only speak at places where he agrees with everything. There’s no sense in only preaching to the choir. But one would thing that there has to be a line in place where you simply won’t go and preach for certain people, due to how far out on the limb they are. That’s why ER2 was so damaging. Macdonald and Driscoll brought in Jakes, tossed him two softball questions, then declared that he was perfectly fine in his theology. Sadly, the masses drank the kool-aide and now many don’t understand the false teaching the Jakes has been espousing for decades. But MacDonald and Driscoll got what they wanted, an expanded audience. Sad stuff.

  143. Dee – please check your email!!! (Prayer request sent.)

    *

    Free at last – your description of those groups is (imo) the last nail in the coffin re. whether MH is a cult or not.

    DEFINITELY a cult.

    I am so very sorry you had to go through that kind of abuse, and wonder if this practice is (somehow) legally actionable? (Not necessarily by you, but I have to wonder if it is, in fact, legal.)

  144. Dee wrote

    I have some funny stories about the bluebird and his family.

    I would love to hear them + see your pics!

  145. I’m really puzzled by this whole thing about Redemption groups. First off, for those of you who’ve been hurt badly by them, I offer my honest and sincere condolences. Situations like that are truly tragic.

    My own experience at at A29 “church” was kind of the opposite though. Most of the people there, in my opinion, weren’t the least bit bothered by ANY of their sin. The attitude seemed to be…”thank God for Grace, I’m a sinner and thank God He took care of that. It’s best not to try and avoid sin or try to overcome sin, because that would be me trying to earn my salvation.”

    I want to be clear. Nobody said that. That’s just the overall attitude I got from people. To me, it was anti-nomianism in full on display and it kind of made me sick. Now, here’s the interesting part. I was one of the “nobodies” in the “church” so when some sin in my own life came to light (it came to light because my wife and I revealed it to the “pastor”) I felt like that was held against me and used against me. Yet, one of the asst “pastors” (who was also an “elder” in the “church”) had some bad attitudes / troubling aspects / whatever you want to refer to them as, and his were always excused as “well, that’s just Joe Bloe being Joe Bloe. We all know how he is, ha ha.”

    Sorry for rambling on, but I’m still trying to figure all of this out. Like I said at the beginning of this post, I’m really more puzzled than anything.

  146. The “Redemption Group” details/practices seem like a slightly more intense version of what was demanded of Andrew re. “confessing” his entire sexual history in detail….

    This makes me feel sick.

  147. Alan –

    The confusion comes in, I think, when you realize that there are maybe 400 A29 churches. They are not all the same theologically speaking, so the experience at one can be very different than someone’s experience at another one.

    The same problem is played out in SGM. Your experience differs according to the particular church you are in. Within both groups, they are more like a loosely affiliated group of churches as opposed to a Denomination that has standard doctrines and practices.

    The severe problem comes in when each individual church has it’s “pet” doctrines that are of greatest importance to them. You end up with 400 denominations inside one group of churchs, in other words, “insanity.” Especially when this group of churches then wants to “function” like a denomination.

    Then, of course, leaders are out there clamoring to get more churches into “their” group (eye-roll).

  148. Alan,

    I totally see where you are coming from.

    I question why Furtick would want Chandler to speak at his church considering they have such a sharp contrast on doctrinal things. I certainly don’t know 100 percent, but him wanting to have him to speak there could definitely point to expanding his influence.

    Chandler could fall in the same category as well…I hope not, because his motive would be way off.

    At the beginning of the message at elevation, Chandler mentions he thought, prayed, and fasted about “even being here.” he could be lying, but if he is not, then that points to me he didn’t make his decision lightly. That points to me that God drew him to speak there.

    Its possible he didn’t draw the line because he felt the need to speak there through prayer and fasting.

    It is also possible he is flat out lying and he is in it to expand his influence and in it for the fame.

    I hope he isnt lying..I hope he is genuine.

  149. Seeker
    You seem to have followed Chandler, Platt and Chan to some extent. I have two questions that maybe you could answer. Do you think they would go along with what seems to be the 9 Marks view that the local church has been given the keys to authority and can therefore declare who is saved/ not saved?

    Then, “How do you, as a father deal with the possibility that your newborn baby has been born as one of the non-elect and there is nothing that you can do to prevent this child from going to hell? I am dead serious about this question.

  150. Alan
    Unless one is very confidant in the ability of a pastor to handle a struggle with both confidentiality as well as grace, one should find a counselor instead. There are a fair number of these guys who do not believe that there is any benefit to outside counseling. I disagree and do not believe that, unless a pastor is empathetic, as well as honest about his own sinful situation, that said pastor would be counseling.

    Good night! Look at Driscoll who has visions of affairs and molestations.Can you imagine being counseled by him? I believe that some of these Calvinistas use the confession of sin as a hold over the person- a control mechanism.Let me tell you that this sin will be brought up anytime the pastor wants to control you.It is dangerous. I believe that some of these pastors were bullied as children and now they are doing the same thing, couching it in “gospel” or “biblical” terms to make it sound “godly.” They are kidding themselves and hurting their people.

  151. “At the beginning of the message at elevation, Chandler mentions he thought, prayed, and fasted about “even being here.” he could be lying, but if he is not, then that points to me he didn’t make his decision lightly. That points to me that God drew him to speak there.”

    Can I be cynical for 5 minutes? Frankly I have heard this sort of thing for years when big name speakers go to or invite othere celebs where they have sharp doctrinal differences. Piper does this ALL THE TIME. Can you say “Rick Warren” and “Doug Wilson”?

    Piper talks both about finding unity and also about being an influence on them as if he has the special truth and being friends with Warren will make a difference. Warren does what Warren always does and appeals to his audience. In the case of DG, he talked about his Calinvist points and Spurgeon. Warren 1 Piper 0

    I think Chandler is simply mimicing Piper in this. Piper is their guru. I seriously doubt Chandler spoke there for free although I doubt he does it for the money. I believe he really thinks he has special truth for them.

    How could he stand up there and not tell them all to run away? So, in effect, he has about the same influence as Piper. He simply affirmed Elevation without believing he did.

  152. “It is also possible he is flat out lying and he is in it to expand his influence and in it for the fame.”

    False dictonomy. It is never that black/white in the celebrity Christian stratosphere. First of all, celebs who have large followings and are speaking all over because they are the hot new thing, never think they lie or deceive even when they do. (they cannot imagine THEY might be deceived. Not possible) They have “special understanding” and see things at a higher plane because of their position…. than mere pew sitters can see. They do not even see that thinking as prideful but as a basic fact.

    Chandler teaches that he is one of the ones with “godly authority” that people should be “under” and he preaches to the “totally depraved”. He is so nice when he says these things, people miss the real meaning behind the words and the big problem with that teaching. They never analyze these guys teaching as real Bereans.

    If people would stop and think about those two things that have come from him in one form or another, they would see the huge problem. Unless of course, they believe it. Then that is a much deeper problem. Hey a guy can be real nice and real wrong at the same time.

  153. “The attitude seemed to be…”thank God for Grace, I’m a sinner and thank God He took care of that. It’s best not to try and avoid sin or try to overcome sin, because that would be me trying to earn my salvation.”

    Alan, this is the seeker/emergent church paradigm concerning sin.

  154. I have a question about the redemption groups. What if you run out of titallating sins? And all you have left are boring sins like I cut the guy off driving home today? Or, I yelled at the kids?

    Isn’t there a concern people will make up stuff just to feed the beast or get attention?

  155. “I’m afraid though that Chandler “got played” and didn’t even realize it. Elephant Room 2 opened my eyes to a lot of things and one of them is that all of these celebrity type guys are looking to make associations with other “pastors”, in order to extend their own sphere of influence. I think it’s apparent that the average person on the street, or in the typical church, doesn’t delve very deeply into these guys or these matters. So, if the average guy who likes Chandler sees or hears that Chandler spoke at Elevation, then to him, Elevation and Furtick must be OK.”

    BINGO!!! NAILED IT.

    Ask yourselves why the speaking circuit (churches, conferences, seminars) is so important to these guys when they have a church they supposedly pastor?

    They are expanding their sphere of influence into new markets. Ironcially, Furtick was doing it , too, by having Chandler.

    You would not believe what a “business” their world is. And the only one who has actually stepped away from the constant limelight so far is Chan.

  156. Dee,

    I could be wrong..but in the few years that I have listened to them, I have never heard them affirm that the local church has the authority to declare who is saved or not. I would think they ultimatley declare Christ as the one who affirms that, as the Groom is the one who saves…not the Bride.

    Not sure if this fully answers your question….but to be honest..I am not sure.

    I checked out the 9 marks website to see their beliefs and to see the possible connections with Chan, Platt, Chandler.

    I didn’t look long, but I didn’t see this view that you mention on the 9 marks website or the connection with Chandler, Platt, and Chan.

    As far as your last question…

    I am a bit confused on this one..are you asking me personally or asking me how they would respond?

    I guess I would personally cling to the fact that God desires for all to be saved…

    I would not cling to the possibility of my child being born as a non-elect…I would cling to the fact that my child can have the hope of the gospel just as I have!

    I would pray over my child, teach my child about the beauty of Christ, and lead my child as a Christian father.

    I would do all those things to hope fully in their salvation.

    I can’t speak for Chandler, Platt, or Chan:

    But I think they would say something of the same sort.

    Diane,

    I went back and re-listened to the sermon that I linked with Chandler. At around 34-35 minutes, He begins to caution them about glorifying in themselves about their growth, etc. The following are his exact words..

    He says to them, “Your way is A WAY, not THE WAY”….

    Followed by,

    “I THINK God loves you, I think God is for you, I think God delights in you, and He is going to shepherd you, and he is going to lead you, and do it all to make much of himself, and to point people to Himself..but be careful because Romans 1 tells us our old man wants to have creation rather than the creator.”

    He is not saying this with certainty…He is saying this with the word “I THINK”… and it is within the context of encouraging caution to Elevation Church.

    I don’t know about you, but this brings some clarity to me for what he said.

    I was a Berean, and I honestly don’t see anything condemning with how he approached Elevation in his sermon or by what he said at the end…

  157. I have enjoyed looking over The Wartburg Watch website. My husband and I attend our church because of the people there, many of whom we care for very much. We are extremely uneasy with the leadership, however. At times it is very difficult for us to attend any church. Not so much that we have been hurt personally, but we have seen so much damage done to others in the name of God. In church after church we’ve been part of there seemed to be an agenda, and someone always ended up disenfranchised or forced out of the fellowship. Usually, the agenda is presented not as an idea or program, but as God’s will. There is often unbelievable pressure to participate in it in some way. It seems impossible to find a place where we can simply worship without having to deal with pressure to conform or perform in some way. It is difficult to explain. Another huge issue with us is how we have seen pastors deal with–or, mainly, fail to deal with issues pertaining to child abuse. Denying it, circling the wagons to protect someone’s ministry, etc. At any rate, it doesn’t look like we are the only people who have seen how problematic organized religion can be.

  158. Anon1,

    Don’t have time to respond to each of your thoughts…

    But I can say this…

    I don’t think Chandler thinks he has “special truth” for them..I think he was teaching scripture as he is called to do.

    If you listen to the sermon, he “elevates” God throughout the entirety of the message by teaching scripture. This is not special truth..this is the truth.

    You said,

    “They have “special understanding” and see things at a higher plane because of their position…. than mere pew sitters can see. They do not even see that thinking as prideful but as a basic fact.

    Chandler teaches that he is one of the ones with “godly authority” that people should be “under” and he preaches to the “totally depraved”. He is so nice when he says these things, people miss the real meaning behind the words and the big problem with that teaching. They never analyze these guys teaching as real Bereans.”

    I don’t have time to fully respond to this…BUT

    Fact 1: He is in a position of authority as a pastor/leader of the Village to teach the word of God. (Just like the early apostles, elders, and deacons found in scripture)

    Fact 2: He has people who are “under” his (hopefully) Godly-teaching (God’s Word). (The Apostles of the early church had people who were under their teaching….How is this an “evil, sinful” thing?

    Fact 3: He is a Calvinist…So Total Depravity is part of his belief system.. (Not sure how being a berean can change this, because this debate has been going on for so long…and many sincere Christians fall in line with this)…

    I guess I don’t see anything wrong with these facts. I don’t see how this is “against” scripture, nor do I see how Chandler has abused these things.

    But I guess I am not enough of a “Berean” to see the truth…But don’t worry, I am not going anywhere any time soon so I have a lot more time to learn the truth…

  159. Seeker, first of all, I really did not expect you to understand where I was coming from. You used a false dictonomy early on about lying, etc when it comes to these guys and that is just not the way it works. I really think people should spend a few months working for a mega church pastor because unless they do, they will never see the problems with their “bubble thinking” unless of course, they have an experience like Dee and Deb did and start questioning.

    The whole point was WHY Chandler was at Elevation. You seem to dismiss that as the topic of the comment and go into something else completely.

    But I will address a few points:

    “Fact 1: He is in a position of authority as a pastor/leader of the Village to teach the word of God. (Just like the early apostles, elders, and deacons found in scripture)”

    No. Not at all. The ONLY authority over people in the Body is Jesus Christ. Each true believer is given “anointing” (1 John) and all are in the priesthood (ministry…as there is NO laity in the Body). A true “pastor” will have the gift of shepherding which is very fluid as people mature and move on with their own gifts. A “preacher” is different and is also a gifting. The only authority they have is how well they handle the Word. They are simply messengers. They are simply one of the functions in the Body. (There is no “office” in the Greek. That was added by translators) If you believe wht you wrote above then tell me the name of the pastors/leaders of the Corinthian church. Philippi? Surely if there are human authorities in the Body, Paul would not have written to the whole church but to these leaders to carry out his counsel. And that is what it was: Counsel. Not orders from the head guy.

    “Fact 2: He has people who are “under” his (hopefully) Godly-teaching (God’s Word). (The Apostles of the early church had people who were under their teaching….How is this an “evil, sinful” thing?”

    See above. We are all to submit to one another in the Body. (Eph 5). This is from having the Holy Spirit. “Be filled with the Spirit…” Elders are simply those who are mature in the faith and we cannot see where in scripture each church had them. The Corinthian church may never have had them. Some churches were planted and we know they had been around for a few years before it was ever brought up. The following is a good idea of what I am talking about:

    http://www.ptmin.org/straight.pdf

    It is long but very good. Be a Berean with it. I could find very little wrong with his conclusions in my study on it.

    I find a lot of “favoritism” going on in these movements. Elevating the pastor/celebrity as someone special who has some special anointing or something. It is very dangerous.

    “Fact 3: He is a Calvinist…So Total Depravity is part of his belief system.. (Not sure how being a berean can change this, because this debate has been going on for so long…and many sincere Christians fall in line with this)…”

    I don’t get where you are going with this. Is Chandler totally depraved now? If so, why should I listen to him. And if he does not think he is totally depraved, how does he know his congregation is totally depraved? Are none of them saved? Does he believe people are in total depravity even after salvation? If they are still totally depraved then maybe them being “under his godly authority” preaching is not working? If we are totally depraved after Salvation then what does being Born Again mean? New Creatures in Christ? Where is the Holy Spirit in a totally depraved but saved person?

    God did create us with brains to develop. We don’t have to check them at the door. It is ok to be logical, rational and ask serious questions about their strange teaching that seems to be somewhat mystical. One can be saved but totally depraved at the same time. Well let us keep our hands on our wallets when the Calvinists are around.

  160. “I could be wrong..but in the few years that I have listened to them, I have never heard them affirm that the local church has the authority to declare who is saved or not.”

    They would never “declare” such a thing. It is a process where they are indirectly given the power. First it starts with something like signing a covenant and agreeing to their nice version of church discipline which sounds biblical but isn’t. Then you have agreed to be “elder led” which is really elder ruled. And because of the polity which they claim the church agreed on by signing the covenant they can decide whether or not you are “showing the fruit of salavation” or not. And in many cases, they redefine sin….such as dissent can be declared sin. It is like a maze and most people don’t find they are in one until they either question them or confront them on something. Then they get to see how it really works.

  161. Seeker,

    Regarding your three facts above, I would like to respond.

    Where does he get his authority from? Sadly, in today’s megachurch model, I believe that too many of these guys are handed authority simply because they happen to be good at public speaking. I’ve made the point before here that the NT requirements for pastors/elders/leaders are all about character and have nothing to do with charisma, public speaking ability, etc. Again, if you start a church, then you have all the authority and no accountability, a really bad combination.

    Regarding your point #2, how can he have people who are under his authority that he’s never even met? How can he be the authority figure for these people when he’s travleing the country all the time? But, that’s precisely the problem with the megachurch model. People aren’t known, they aren’t cared for, and they aren’t shepherded. As bad as that model is for the people in the seats, I fear that it has even worse effects on the pastor.

  162. Seeker
    Alan said “how can he have people who are under his authority that he’s never even met? How can he be the authority figure for these people when he’s travleing the country all the time? But, that’s precisely the problem with the megachurch model. People aren’t known, they aren’t cared for, and they aren’t shepherded. As bad as that model is for the people in the seats, I fear that it has even worse effects on the pastor.” This is an excellent observation.

    I would like to build on this. What in the world is “authority?”I want some specifics. Better yet, what does it mean for someone, like myself, to be under authority? And if Chandler makes an observation about Scripture and I make the exact same observation, why is his observation “authoritative” and why is mine “not authoritative.”

  163. mot
    I still want to know what “having authority over” me is? Can anyone tell me what in the world this Christianese phrase means? For example, a state trooper has the authority to pull me over when I am speeding. My commanding officer in the military has the authority to tell me to run 2 miles. What is this “authority” that these guys love to say that they have?

  164. Dee:

    You said:”What is this “authority” that these guys love to say that they have?”

    The only authority they have is what people give them.

  165. Dee,

    I have the Redemption book here. Never read it but maybe I should check it out? LOL

    As far as Chan goes…I do NOT think he believes that 9Marks stuff. He is friends with my former pastor (pre MH)…and stood in for him a lot during a family crisis. He has sold his belongings and lives in a 2 bd apt. in San Francisco and is doing something called IMPACT in the inner city. He is not even aligned with a church I don’t believe. He left the whole mega-church celebrity thing behind for the most part. Driscoll actually criticized him for “walking away” from his mega church, taking a step of faith, and stepping down (there is a video on youtube). I DO NOT see Chan as a Calvinista AT ALL…but that is just MHO 🙂

  166. I’d hate to pop your balloon, but Calvin has nothing to do with these kind of actions

    It is the nature of man to rule over (bully) those who will allow them (Vulnerability Group?),

    As here is a Anti- Calvinist (Steve Gaines from a Southern Baptist Church) who has called out at least 4 children and at least 3 adults from the pulpit

    http://www.kewego.com/video/72e1abc4be8s.html

    http://www.kewego.com/video/iLyROoaf81xd.html

    http://www.kewego.com/video/iLyROoaf811X.html

    http://www.kewego.com/video/iLyROoafzaaj.html

    http://www.veoh.com/watch/v20264316Dfnem8gN

    http://www.kewego.com/video/iLyROoaf81oi.html

    http://www.kewego.com/video/iLyROoaf2-XG.html

    http://www.kewego.com/video/iLyROoafzaa6.html

    Its all about Money, Power and Prestige

    and Religion is the vehicle.

    And they are being churned out of the growing Seminaries in great numbers yearly.

  167. Kathy
    You haven’t popped our balloon. We not only did a series on Steve Gaines but his buddy, Mac Brunson. However, any group which stresses authoritarianism is at high risk for abuse. This would include some of the Neo-Cals.

  168. Sophia
    We wrote a positive post on Francis Chan.(David Platt and Francis Chan-Two Calvinistas I Could Grow to Love). I have some theological differences with him because he doe buy into the Neo Cal issues on strict gender roles, etc. But, any guy who annoys Driscoll (we posted Chan’s interview with Harris and Driscoll) is deserving of our admiration!

  169. mot
    What sort of authority do people give these guys? I am actually thinking about my current church. I have no idea what it would mean to give my pastor authority. I think about what he says and then I make my own decisions. I suppose I would, if he asked me nicely,do something like serve on a committee if i had time. I assess everything he says in light of Scripture. I don’t take his word on it. So, what is this authority?

  170. Seeker,

    “I THINK God loves you, I think God is for you, I think God delights in you, and He is going to shepherd you, and he is going to lead you, and do it all to make much of himself, and to point people to Himself..but be careful because Romans 1 tells us our old man wants to have creation rather than the creator.”

    “He is not saying this with certainty…He is saying this with the word “I THINK”… and it is within the context of encouraging caution to Elevation Church.”

    A pastor comes to your church and tells you he thinks God loves you, thinks God is for you, and thinks God delights in you…(but don’t hold the pastor to it because he only thinks this is the case and is not sure)? Yet, God is going to (no thinking here) “shepherd you and lead you”…but not love them or be for them for sure? That does not make sense. You are free to your conclusion but I do not agree.

    At the 34 minute mark Chandler compares Elevation to Village’s growth history; how Village church had to build a bigger building and they filled that; how they had 6 services on Sunday at one point; how they had to turn people away; how they did multi-site and that filled up. He is comparing the 2 churches and their similar rapid growth. He then says, “Don’t touch it. Keep your hands off. There shouldn’t be any chest beating in here.” The context is the blessing that Chandler thinks is happening at Elevation (growth as compared with his own church’s growth) and is warning them about pride. Then comes our statement, “And, and so I think God is for you and I think God loves you and I think He delights in you and He’s gonna shepherd you and He’s gonna lead you but He’s gonna do it all to make much of Himself and point people toward Himself…” So Chandler compares the rapid growth between the 2 churches, yet he is not sure God is for them? He then speaks about how the old man wants to have “creation instead of a Creator” and how the old man inside of us thinks we are smarter than God; how we fail to acknowledge God and then he says, “…and before you know it, with a little shift here and a little drift there, God did these things, His name is still on it…” and then warns them about not looking to the pastor’s vision, but to God, and how this kind of elite- we are the best- thinking is opposed to the things of God. Matt says God did these things (growth) and His name is on it…it sounds to me like he is saying God is for them.

    Matt then says he prays for them and their pastor and says, “That is where my prayers are- that God would protect you. Israel never did well with blessing. Never did well with blessing.” He appears to be using Israel as an example of a nation that failed when it was blessed -comparing blessed Israel to Elevation- and praying that God protect them. But he only “thinks” God loves them and is for them? I see the context saying otherwise- regardless of his use of the word-think.

    He ends the Israel comparison with, “So I’d rather that not be your story. If God wants to do it, let Him do it and there will be joy even there. But hear me, yes, God loves you, but ultimately God is after the praise of His glorious grace.”

    He says God does love them (no thinking here) after all. Am I to think that Matt only thinks God is for them and only thinks God delights in them, (even though Matt says God is going to shepherd and lead them)?

    Also at the 45 min mark Matt says, “Some of you, God loves you so much, is so ferociously for you. He is gonna light you up and it will be the most gracious and merciful thing He has ever done for you.”

    I guess we will agree to disagree. 🙂

  171. Who wants to play a game? I dusted off my copy of Redemption…the handbook for redemption groups by Mike Wilkerson.
    What’s wrong with this quote for Mark Driscoll (besides being a run on sentence)?
    “This good news is far superior to despising others for sin, excusing sin hiding sin, partially confessing sin, denying sin, becoming defined by sin, minimizing sin, giving in to sin, being ruled by sin, accepting sin, or ignoring sin, because /this good news actually redeems from sin when accompanied by a lifestyle of humble and biblical faith and repentance.”

  172. 🙂

    This is what I get for responding so hastily when I was trying to run out the door to head to my church. I will try to respond the best I can. This might be a rather long response btw..please forgive me in advance.

    Anon1,

    You said first,

    “Seeker, first of all, I really did not expect you to understand where I was coming from. You used a false dictonomy early on about lying, etc when it comes to these guys and that is just not the way it works. I really think people should spend a few months working for a mega church pastor because unless they do, they will never see the problems with their “bubble thinking” unless of course, they have an experience like Dee and Deb did and start questioning.

    The whole point was WHY Chandler was at Elevation. You seem to dismiss that as the topic of the comment and go into something else completely.”

    So I used a false dictonomy? I guess I am not seeing the so called layered complexities that you have found in all of this.

    For me, it was rather simple….To me, he gave some thoughts, prayers, and fasted on whether to attend this church, or he didn’t. I don’t see how there is middle ground here. If he did not do the latter, he lied in front of the whole congregation at Elevation, and that was the point I was trying to make.

    If he truly fasted, prayed, and thought deeply about attending..then why deny that God could be working through it. Why assume it is automatically about expanding influence, $$$$, or any other reason.

    Why is it so hard to think that this is possibly something God led him to do? This was the point I was trying to make about Elevation..and no, I didn’t dismiss your point about WHY Chandler was at Elevation…I spent a great deal of my time explaining why I thought he went there, whether I am wrong or not.

    To me, it is no problem you see him and others in a different light. I don’t get why you think everyone who doesn’t see what you see are in a bubble or have checked their brains at the door..

    Please tell me though.. If you have worked at the Village, worked alongside Chandler, or have some other direct evidence that could “pop” my bubble…then I would love to be enlightened so I could stop listening to Chandler via podcast and join in with your sentiments.

    But to be honest, I don’t see it, at least not yet. I am listening…or at least trying..to understand why you stand where you do. Maybe I am stubborn…My mom always called me this.. 🙂

    I understand your reason to question and use caution towards him, but so much of this feels beyond questioning. It appears to me that Chandler has been stamped with “GUILTY”…I could be wrong, but if the latter is the case, I am really trying hard to see why.

    You then said,

    “No. Not at all. The ONLY authority over people in the Body is Jesus Christ. Each true believer is given “anointing” (1 John) and all are in the priesthood (ministry…as there is NO laity in the Body). A true “pastor” will have the gift of shepherding which is very fluid as people mature and move on with their own gifts. A “preacher” is different and is also a gifting. The only authority they have is how well they handle the Word. They are simply messengers. They are simply one of the functions in the Body. (There is no “office” in the Greek. That was added by translators) If you believe wht you wrote above then tell me the name of the pastors/leaders of the Corinthian church. Philippi? Surely if there are human authorities in the Body, Paul would not have written to the whole church but to these leaders to carry out his counsel. And that is what it was: Counsel. Not orders from the head guy.”

    DISCLAIMER: The following is MY take on the position of Pastor/Teacher in regards to authority, and what I see Matt Chandler as..//This is NOT Matt Chandler’s thoughts on pastoral authority, etc..

    When I said authority above, I am not referring to the authority that Christ has over the body. That is incredibly different. I am referring to Chandler’s “authority” in the sense of his responsibilities that God has given him as one of the leaders in the Village. Not a “commanding” authority mind you.

    Early on, the Village hired Matt Chandler because of what they saw in his character, fruit, and ability to teach the word of God. They needed someone to Shepherd them. They needed someone who had the gift to teach the word of God. They called him.

    This church was small at the time, no megachurch then. He served as their Shepherd by Pastoring them. I believe this authority is largely based in being a servant leader…as any pastor should. He also served as their “preacher” by teaching the word of God. His authority in this is found in his responsibility to teach the AUTHORITATIVE word of God and to do it well under scrutiny by God if he does not.

    I see his authority as ONLY found in his responsibilities to shepherd/teach (as the bible describes) those whom God has entrusted to him (1st Peter 5)through this hiring at the Village. Of course he and others submit to the ultimate authority in Jesus Christ. I certainly don’t think he denies that, nor do I think he denies the priesthood of all believers.

    He is not their lord..Christ is their Lord. He is not to “lord” over them or abuse them as one of the leaders in the Village.

    He is to shepherd them and teach them well. And the Village is to “obey” (Hebrews 13:17) the leadership that they have (Not Just Chandler) NOT BLINDLY, but with discernment and wisdom. If Chandler is truly a servant leader, then I don’t think the Village will have a problem following (“obeying”) his leadership. In my opinion, Chandler has served the Village well…even in his trial with Cancer.

    When I mentioned authority above..I said TO TEACH the word of God.

    I didn’t know this until recently, but Chandler is no longer the campus pastor at the Flower Mound Campus of the Village Church. This change may have been like this for some time since he was diagnosed with cancer, but this was not always like this…Chandler today uses his gift of teaching primarily in regards to the Village, but he has served as “shepherd” in the past.

    So in actuality, Chandler’s primary position now as a leader in the village is to teach the Village the word of God. So his “authority” comes in the sense of his responsibility to teach well. I can’t verify if he continues to Shepherd some..so no comment there.

    This is all not to say that his “position” is any more special than anyone elses position in the body of Christ. I don’t think Chandler would say that. I DO think that the scrutiny before God is more unique for Chandler because of his leadership position in regards to teaching and his time served more fully in the past as a shepherd of the Village.

    I do think Chandler takes his responsibilites as an Elder seriously along with his responsibility to teach. These are unique and important positions to the church, along with Deacons and others. They are there to help with the growth of the church, but these people are by no means “better” than the rest of the Bride.

    So to wrap this up:

    I have not seen evidence of Chandler lording over the Village, abusing the Village, creating problems in the Village. I have not seen him abusing his leadership position at the Village or using his position in a negative light.

    If this was the case, where are the stories? Where are the testimonies against his leadership in the blogs? The last time two people checked into TWW from the Village…they had mostly positive things to say about Chandler..have we forgotten that?

    I am not saying Chandler is perfect or above sin, and I would hate to know he has already walked the path of Driscoll and others in regards to his position. If so, then it is only a matter of time before we hear about a “Village Refuge” site. Then, I will gladly come on here and say that Matt lorded over the Village, he abused his position, and I was wrong about him.

    More to come..just trying to break this up..

  173. Dave…I guess I should have given more context…this is Driscoll’s intro to Redemption (the book used for the Redemption Groups). He talks about the grace in a weird way (in my eyes)….especially as it is the preface to a book all about sin sniffing, confessing all sorts of deep, dark secrets to strangers, temptations…etc. When redemption groups are complete, I guarantee the leaders walk away with dirt on everyone…More interesting quotes to come…

  174. Anon1,

    Thanks for the link. I promise I will look to it soon, and I will work hard to be a berean.

    As far as the Total Depravity thing..I think I get where you were going with this now…and my hasty response makes absolutely no sense from before..

    You said something about Matt preaching to the totally depraved in one of your comments? I am a bit confused as to what you are suggesting here…but I will go off on a limb and assume what I think..you can correct me later if I am wrong.

    Isn’t the belief system of Total Depravity pretty much the belief that in our sin we are objects of God’s wrath and we are unable to come to Him apart from Him?

    BUT ONCE we turn to Him, believe in Christ, we are not condemened by our sin.

    Were you asserting that Matt believes the Christian believers in his church to be in the same state as they were before they came to Christ? Were you asserting that Matt focuses more on “sinfulness” than “grace” as Dee’s post have discussed? I have listened to a lot of his sermons, and I have never heard such things.

    It is true, our true self by nature is wicked, and even in our place with Christ we have a disposition to pursue wickedness sometimes, but Chandler has made it clear MANY MANY times the Grace we have in Christ and how God sees us NOW as His NEW CREATION….

    So I am not sure what you were suggesting, but Chandler, in my opinion, does not focus on sin more than the grace found in Christ.

    About the whole “church declaring who is saved or not”..

    I get your point. Now here is a question…How do you know what you said above takes place at the Village? Not denying this exists indirectly, but am I honestly wondering how you are so certain this takes place.

    Logically to me, the Village has a lot of people in their church community. If abusive practices like this have been going on for some time..why haven’t we heard about it?

    If this has been going on..I would think “someone” would step up and confess in light of SGM and especially the situations at Mars Hill? Someone would speak up right?

    Where are the confessions of abuse? I am tired of SPECULATION…If abuse is happening like you say it is..then forgive me for being the doubting Thomas..but I need to see it! Where is the documentation? Where is it?

  175. Sophia. I’m guessing Driscoll believes the 5 solas including “by grace alone” but only when accompanied by an acceptable “redemption” lifestyle as outlined in da book…..it’s not-alone aloneness and ungraceful grace…..

  176. Alan,

    Your observations are noted. You said,

    “Where does he get his authority from? Sadly, in today’s megachurch model, I believe that too many of these guys are handed authority simply because they happen to be good at public speaking. I’ve made the point before here that the NT requirements for pastors/elders/leaders are all about character and have nothing to do with charisma, public speaking ability, etc. Again, if you start a church, then you have all the authority and no accountability, a really bad combination.”

    Chandler was at the Village before it turned into a megachurch model. From hearing about the history of the Village…The church was able to understand his character as any small member church could a new pastor. He had accountability in the form of older members in the church who were in the Village before he arrived….He still has accountability with fellow Elders who are much older then him..(see church staff page on the Village website).

    I still haven’t seen any evidence that Matt has no integrity and character…when that evidence comes..I will question him far more than I do now.

    You also said,

    “how can he have people who are under his authority that he’s never even met? How can he be the authority figure for these people when he’s travleing the country all the time? But, that’s precisely the problem with the megachurch model. People aren’t known, they aren’t cared for, and they aren’t shepherded. As bad as that model is for the people in the seats, I fear that it has even worse effects on the pastor.”

    I was mistaken in thinking he still served as a primary shepherding role at the flower mound campus like he did sometime ago..There are many listed on the staff page who seem to fulfill those role as Shepherds..but of course I can’t verify this..You would have to ask a member of the Village. I know the Village emphasizes small groups as any other big church to help with this care..but I can’t verify how they operate or what happens in them.

    As I said to Anon1,

    His authority is simply found in his gifted responsibility to teach the people of the Village the Authoritative word of God as one of the leaders under the scrutiny of God. Those who attend the Village church are “under” this teaching because they choose to be…for whatever reason.

    Hopefully they have used discernment, have seen good fruit in him, have seen his love for Christ, his passion for missions, and are willing to listen to his teaching based on his character rather than his public speaking skills. I doubt all in that church follow the latter..but I am sure many do.

  177. Diane,

    You said,

    “A pastor comes to your church and tells you he thinks God loves you, thinks God is for you, and thinks God delights in you…(but don’t hold the pastor to it because he only thinks this is the case and is not sure)? Yet, God is going to (no thinking here) “shepherd you and lead you”…but not love them or be for them for sure? That does not make sense. You are free to your conclusion but I do not agree.”

    Good point Diane.

    Bottom line for me…I don’t condemn him for saying what he said.

    For me, the entire context of the sermon was spot on..and was a needed message for a church that affirms the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel which is ultimately rooted in selfishness…Do you disagree?

    I don’t think he meant to say anything with certainty as if he knows 100 percent, as if God told him…..but I think he in his heart believes that God is ultimatley for the Elevation church and many of the people in it.

    I thought his warning to them was spot on. It is entirely possible God is orchestrating the growth in that church as far as people coming to Christ…..That is not a bad thing is it if they are genuine conversions?

    But if they twist that and make it about themselves…then that is no good, hence the warning.

    Chandler doesn’t know fully that this growth is orchestrated by God, but I think he believes that in his heart based on what he has percieved….he may be wrong..and it may have been wrong for him to say that in front of that church like he did..but I can think of far more condemning things a man has done.

    As Dee says, “good night!”…Haven’t we all said things that were off before? I know I have on here many times today!

    I know he is a leader and a teacher of God’s word..and I know he has to be extra careful what he says..but he is still a man…who fails in his speech like any of us.

    In addition to this, I just think the burden is greater for those to say God is NOT for a church where people are coming to Christ, where people are serving their local community, etc..To me, Overall, God is for Elevation and the people of Elevation, but not for some of this extrabiblical teaching going on there.

    I really would hate to be someone who is a new Christian at Elevation knowing that many consider the church that I came to Christ in not a church…or a church that God is not for…

  178. Dee,

    You said,

    “Alan said “how can he have people who are under his authority that he’s never even met? How can he be the authority figure for these people when he’s travleing the country all the time? But, that’s precisely the problem with the megachurch model. People aren’t known, they aren’t cared for, and they aren’t shepherded. As bad as that model is for the people in the seats, I fear that it has even worse effects on the pastor.” This is an excellent observation.

    I would like to build on this. What in the world is “authority?”I want some specifics. Better yet, what does it mean for someone, like myself, to be under authority? And if Chandler makes an observation about Scripture and I make the exact same observation, why is his observation “authoritative” and why is mine “not authoritative.”

    Dee,

    In my hasty response to Anon1 earlier, I was not able to fully explain where I land on all of this. Thus creating the confusion here…I hope I am bringing clarity to this situation, but I am a bit tired over here and I don’t know if I am making things worse or better for everyone.

    I am fully aware Chandler may come to a different sense of his position and what authority means for him. I am also aware that it is entirely possible he has abused this position as the scripture warns not to do..but I have not seen the evidence of such…yet.

    In my opinion,

    Any authority that a pastor, elder, or any leader within a church has is solely based on the responsibilities or gifts that God gives them and the unique situation they are in.

    Such as:

    It is not based on commanding a congregation, lording over them, spiritually abusing them, or even controlling the full dynamic of the church as many leaders do.

    I think Hebrews 13:17 is not a command to blindly follow your leaders, but follow them with discernment and wisdom within your local context. If the fruit is good, then it is a “good” thing to follow or obey their leadership…If it is not good..then move on. Furthermore, these leaders should understand that the ultimate authority is Christ..and there “authority” goes no further than a servants role and teaching the authoritative word of God.

    So, when I talked about being “under authority”, I meant that you choose to follow certain leaders within the context of a local church using wisdom and discernment.

    This “following” does not mean that you have no right to follow Christ on your own, or that you follow their leadership over Christ’s leadership… but these leaders are leaders that you choose to follow so they can come alongside and care for you, guide you, mentor you, all under their (and your) submission to Jesus Christ.

    Jesus modeled this with his Disciples. The Disciples modeled this with others in the early church..and it goes on from there.

    I think this leadership can happen in all sorts of ways with all sorts of people…not just the “big wig” pastors…but I think God also allows certain people in the church to take on more of a capacity of leadership whether in Shepherding or Teaching the word of God because of their gifts.

    This does nothing to deny the priesthood of all believers..but it does affirm there are some who have a unique position in the church with greater responsibility than others…This doesn’t mean they are greater…or have the right to “boss” or command others around..it means they have far greater responsibility to lead and teach as God intends because of their unique position.

    Am I off on this?

    I know Chandler may take a much stronger view than I have..as many churches annd pastorsdo..but here is the thing..as long as Chandler is teaching the word well and not abusing it..as long as he is not abusing his position…as long as he is serving the Village well…then I have respect for him and I respect his position that he is in.

    He may not be a full shepherding pastor at a particular campus, but he is still using his gift of teaching throughout the Village..and I can’t verify, but I suspect he might even shepherd some still as he started off the Village this way.

    I can’t confirm any of this though..so hopefully someone from the Village will show up and confirm some things.

  179. Dee, I would love to hear blue bird stories. When we lived in a third floor flat, the kitchen window looked on to the top of a dead palm tree and one year a pair of Egyptian geese nested there. I was fortunate enough to witness the babies soon after they hatched and see them jump off the top all the way down to the ground. Once they were all down, mother herded them off to the nearby pond for their first swim.

  180. Eagle,

    You said,

    “Let’s cut the crap and acknowledge that being a “pastor” in a mega church, is about power, money and fame. When the pastor lives in a bubble you know it needs to be popped. When the pastor is pushing tithing and people are struggling in a recession, yet he loves in a nice comfy gated lot, you know its time to stop giving.”

    It’s hard for me to “cut the crap” and say that being a pastor in a mega church is about power, money, and fame.

    Certainly, many pastors are living luxuriously off the wallets of their tithers…living in mansions..etc, etc..

    But I know of one mega-pastor in particular who downgraded his home, moved to a another part of Birmingham to focus on ministry in the community there, and is more concerned about the fame of Jesus than his fame. He doesn’t seem to be that into power either, but cares for the powerless in his desire to adopt children in need and lead his church to do so.. That is David Platt…The pastor of a mega-church at Brook Hills..

    I don’t think Chandler is for his fame over Jesus either—but I don’t know much about his financial status…He could be living high on the hog for all I know..

    You then said,

    “I ask you Seeker…Who gives these people authority? They have as much authority to lead, as Joseph Smith had the authority to launch a “new gospel” in 1830.

    Instead of pastors or Elders, why isn’t Jesus the authority for these folks? If they really cared for people AND the “gospel” they seek to proclaim they’d step aside, give up the lecture circuit, and dial it down a mile.”

    Well, their authority as far as their position to teach or to lead as a servant for their church comes into play when the church hires them. In the case of Chandler, the Village hired him early on before it became a megachurch..so he had a few years to become intimately aquainted before the unprecedented growth.

    I think for the congregation at the Village…Jesus IS the authority for them…and every pastor I have ever listened to in the Village affirms that over and over and over and over again!

    As far as stepping down from the lecture circuit..maybe you are right. I like what the Megapastor Chan did…He walked away from the circuit, his mega-church, etc, etc…But he felt the weight of God to do so.

    My argument is that maybe for Chandler, Platt and others…it is not about the $$$, power, or fame…. but about the weight of God on them to speak at these places to the people at these places.

    There are actual people there you know..People that need the word of God just as much as anyone…

    But they are not above sin..so maybe you are right and Chandler and others are not pursuing these endeavours with God’s leading.

    I totally agree success isn’t measured by what you said it is..

    and I agree as well, that Mahaney and Driscoll are lacking rather significantly in the love department..

    Now that is out of the way…I want to share with you something a bit personal for me.

    I saw the prayer request you gave Dee and Deb..and my heart broke when I read it…

    I was in a very similar place where you are now last year when my father was diagnosed with an extremely deadly form of Esophogeal cancer. The doctors really had little to no hope he would live.

    It was awful…I hated seeing a man I loved so much decline in his health like that..and my mom was an emotional rollercoaster as well..

    It was one of the darkest times of my life to say with certainty, but God sustained me in ways that I will never forget in those days when my father had to endure a double regiment of chemo and radiation..

    Just know, that I will pray as often as I can for your father. I believe God does miracles, and I saw it with my experience, and I hope God will step in for your family as he did for mine.

    Last May, my father had major life threatening surgery where they had to take out his entire esophogas and make a new one with his stomach because of the cancer.

    Getting to that point was a miracle in and of itself..because his cancer was already at Stage 4 and in a really difficult location. The doctors early on thought he would never make it to the surgery.

    Long story short…after the surgery..he got his scan back..and the doctor who gave us no hope in the beginning was speechless. He told us miracles still happen when he showed us the cancer-free scan.

    My dad is still on chemo, but his health has increased dramatically..and his cancer is still in remission…For a cancer that you can go on the internet and discover that the survival rate is relatively non-existent..I am so humbled and thankful that God stepped in.

    I sincerely hope these dark days will past soon for your family..I hope the peace of God will envelop you as it did me…I sincerely hope God will pour out his grace on you and heal your father from that terrible disease. Most of all, I hope you can find a loving sympathetic Father in our great High Priest..Jesus Christ…who understands your struggles.

    Praying often,

    Seeker

  181. David said: “That’s another catch phrase used repeatedly in the House of Darkness: “Take it to the cross.” Constantly during the day we are to try as hard as possible to identify any sin deep within ourselves and then immediately take it to the cross. What does that mean? I don’t have the slightest idea.”

    I always wondered what the phrase ‘take it to the cross’ meant, too. Stop worrying? Repent? I don’t know.

    Anon linked to Elevation Church’s ‘The Code’.

    That webpage chilled me. “We’re all about numbers” and “We need your seat” are the kinds of phrases that I would hope people recognise as signals to flee for the hills. If they are young, though, they won’t; they’ll say ‘wow, a church that’s “on fire” and has serious goals for outreach! We need to go there!’

    “We need your seat” tells you everything you need to know about how the leadership treat the congregation: you are there to sit in a seat to listen unquestioningly to the ‘we’ who need butts, any butts, on seats (provided they are attached to utterly obedient and appropriately zealous people). I’m sure that no other old butt could possibly fill the pastor’s seat, though. All butts are precious to God but some more precious than others.

    The rest of The Code is the kind of businessy jargon that has no place in a church.

  182. Sophia @10:31p –

    Is that concept of redemption from sin what is still taught at MH?

    He is mixing justification and sanctification together. The end of that sentence clearly implies that a person is only justified if they work at staying sinless !?!

    Please tell me this is not what they teach

  183. Seeker
    I still don’t get it. What in the world is the big deal about authority so that it results in some guy “lording it over” others? Form my view in the moderate seats, there is nothing that a pastor would do that would result in him being perceived to have some “special authority.” Like what? Give a sermon? Read the Bible? Explain the Bible? I know lots of people who do not claim any “authority” who can do these things just fine.The way the authority thing is going is almost laughable. They are coming off as admirals in rowboats hallucinating that thy are on a destroyer.

    Do you get authority by spending a couple year s in seminary or 9 months in a pastors college? So, any joe who decides he wants to be a pastor gets it in some special super secret spiritual way?

    I still do not think that you have sufficiently explained this authority stuff. One of our readers said that in his church, the pastor represents that church in various meetings in the city, etc. That I buy but so do many people who represent an organization and do not have this elusive “spiritual authority.” Frankly, the majority of times I see “authority” raised is by some egotistical pastors who think they are hotshots, again not realizing that they are in a rowboat.

    I still remember my husband confronting, and I do mean confronting, a pastor who was involved in a serious situation at a former church. Many, many people were deeply hurt. As hubby asked what his role was, this egotistical man, who hangs with the calvinistas said “What about my authority.” my hubby retorted, “Until you wash the feet of those that have been hurt, you have none.” BTW, he didn’t because his definition of authority is to leave him alone. And his stuff is touted by SBTS. This is baloney. So, I am waiting for what constitutes pastoral authority that goes beyond “I get to go to meetings.”

  184. Seeker
    BTW, this is not directed at Matt Chandler of any of the others whom you defend. I want to go far deeper than one au courant pastor.

  185. Estelle
    What is it about watching birds nesting that fascinates us? Is it the beauty of life that has been instilled in us by our Creator? One friend, a long time ago, in Dallas, was so excited when a bird built a nest outside one of her windows. My friend was depressed that she was living in the city and was so excited that this nest was built and eggs were laid. Then, some neighborhood boys were running around, shooting paintball guns and shot down the nest and the eggs were broken. My friend was devastated and it took her weeks to recover. There is something about the hope of life that points us directly back to our Creator.

    I have never seen Egyptian geese (well, I don’t think i have). Where do they live?

  186. Seeker

    So, in your kind response to Eagle, you said this. “Well, their authority as far as their position to teach or to lead as a servant for their church comes into play when the church hires them.” Does the Bible say that as soon as you sign a contract, you have authority? I mean beyond the leading an organization authority. Since anyone can be hired to be “CEO”, i have got to believe that there is “special” authority in the church that differentiates itself from Donald Trump.

  187. Ted
    Thank you for that lovely video. I plan to use it one day on the blog. I see God so clearly as I look out into the small corner of the universe that I can see late at night.

  188. Sophie
    It has come to my attention that some pastors, when confronted with their shenanigans, will tell people to “move along” which is the underlying sentiment of “we need your seat.” BTW, I plan to write about the “Redemption” groups. If I didn’t know about them, I am sure that there are tons of people who don’t as well. We need to warn people.

  189. Bridget2
    It is my opinion that they do not know what the heck they are doing at Mars HIll. Some dodo gets an idea to “fight sin” so they start redemption groups. Another genius decides that they will do discipline contracts and blab it on the Internet. I still think that Driscoll really is like a “monster truck with a broken steering column, lurching around and destroying everyone in his path.” Then his underling must run around and clean up the carnage. What a gig.

  190. Seeker,

    I think I understand where you are coming from. I just do not agree.

    You wrote, “Bottom line for me…I don’t condemn him for saying what he said.” Nor do I “condemn” him- I never did condemn him and the point is not whether we “condemn” him or not. I wanted to know how he could say it– while knowing what Elevation church promotes/teaches.

    “….affirms the health, wealth, and prosperity gospel which is ultimately rooted in selfishness…Do you disagree?” I disagree with how you have portrayed the prosperity gospel. It is not as simple as “selfishness.” It is a false gospel. And Furtick claims prosperity gospel wof promoter TD Jakes as the best preacher in the world. Has Chandler been silent about this promotion by Furtick?

    “Chandler doesn’t know fully that this growth is orchestrated by God, but I think he believes that in his heart based on what he has percieved….he may be wrong..and it may have been wrong for him to say that in front of that church like he did..but I can think of far more condemning things a man has done.”

    My point is Chandler thinks he does know well enough and is confident enough to say the statment…even with a “think” which is not relevant
    because the context shows us he does consider Elevation to be a blessed chruch, (even making a reference to blessed Israel) but blessed by who? By Furtick? Blessed by themselves? No, blessed by God. So, yes, he does believe and did state that God was for them…wof doctrine, Td Jakes.their way, etc. That is what I have to go on. It is endless speculation to continue on with, well- he might have meant this or that, or he might not have really thought this or that. As far your statement, “but I can think of far more condemning things a man has done”…it is dangerous, imo, to leave an impression with people that God is for their church when the pastor appears to be going the wof/prosperity route and associates/promotes TD Jakes.

    “To me, Overall, God is for Elevation and the people of Elevation, but not for some of this extrabiblical teaching going on there.”

    The wof/prosperity gospel is not “extrabiblical teaching.” It is another gospel. You can do your own research as I did.

    “I really would hate to be someone who is a new Christian at Elevation knowing that many consider the church that I came to Christ in not a church…or a church that God is not for…”

    Oh, that might bother you– but that would not bother me at all if I loved my pastor and the church I attended.

    This is what I really would hate: Matthew 7:21-23.

  191. Dee,

    Thanks for your response. I feared I haven’t explained it adequately…let me try again.

    “Form my view in the moderate seats, there is nothing that a pastor would do that would result in him being perceived to have some “special authority.” Like what? Give a sermon? Read the Bible? Explain the Bible? I know lots of people who do not claim any “authority” who can do these things just fine.”

    I would agree…there is nothing “special” that a pastor can have beyond others. Teaching the word is a gift—many may have that gift who are not serving in any church as Pastor/Elder/Deacon etc… The unknown missionary in some remote area in India can have that gift and he certainly has no “special authority” he can boast in.

    Anyone who has that gift of teaching however has a unique responsibility and position to teach the “authoritative” word of God. They are not authoritative in the sense of a “commander of a battleship” as you say, but what they teach is authoritative in the sense that it is the revelation of an authoritative God. That is why there are so many warnings on teaching the word.

    The gift of teaching, like all gifts, is given by the Holy Spirit, and that gift gives that person a unique position in the body of Christ…as people with other gifts have a unique position.

    Because this gift is from God, in a sense, this person is “authorized” by the Holy Spirit to use this gift well. We have nothing a part from God, including our gifts. So this person has “authority” in the basis of his gifts and the unique position he has in the body. Like I said before, this doesn’t make him “better” or more “special” in God’s eyes or anybody in the congregation for that matter.

    However, this person may have more responsibility than others because of the unique position he is in, but I don’t think this means “more power”.

    Please hear me though, I believe all of this is rooted in those who yield to the Holy Spirit in their teaching, who submit to God, etc.

    In the sense of those who shepherd…they have a unique position and responsibility as well…to care for their flock as a servant leader. They are authorized by the Holy Spirit when the Holy Spirit gives them this gift, and they are supposed to be careful with that “authorization” to not “lord over” their congregation or use their position to abuse them.

    Again..This doesn’t mean more power..they are not the commanders of a battleship..but they are given unique gifts and are often placed in a unique position that holds great responsibility (not power)…

    “Do you get authority by spending a couple year s in seminary or 9 months in a pastors college? So, any joe who decides he wants to be a pastor gets it in some special super secret spiritual way?”

    No..

    I think, like anyone, we encounter our gifts through the Holy Spirit and just plain ol’ experience. I also think, anyone who serves as a Elder, Teacher, Deacon, etc needs to have expierienced God “drawing” them or “leading” them to that position to use the gifts that He has shown/given to them.

    Seminary doesn’t have anything to do with this in my opinion, but I think it can be beneficial to those in a pastoral position in the long run to educate them better on certain things…but I have know excellent pastors who never spent a day in Seminary..and they were educated just fine.

    Your husband was dead on. It seems to me your pastor at the time was “lording” over you and your fellow congregation. It seems he failed to uphold his position as God would have him uphold it, he failed in his gift to shepherd you and others.

    Here is my take on all this.

    I am well aware that many pastors see themselves as having “special authority”…and to a certain extent, I believe because of their gifts and position they are authorized by God..but this does not mean they are supposed to command, lord over, etc…

    They are in a rowboat as you said, although their rowboat might be unique along with all the other rowboats in the body.

  192. Dee,

    About what I said to Eagle.

    It was a bit late, so I left out some key points I needed to make…but he asked who gives them authority?

    In the sense of their position…they are hopefully “hired” into it based up on their gifts, character, etc from their local church.

    So in a sense, the church chooses to follow these leaders in their position.

    In another sense, God “authorizes” many of these people to that position based on the gifts he gives them and drawing them to that position.

    Hope that helps a bit.

  193. Seeker

    “Anyone who has that gift of teaching however has a unique responsibility and position to teach the “authoritative” word of God. ” OK, then let’s go down that road. Let’s assume Pastor Joe is teaching on baptism. He quotes some Bible verses and then says he has come to the belief the infant baptism is correct like Ligon Duncan, for example. Now, Paige Patterson teaching with this so called “authority of the Holy Spirit” says that believers baptism, immersion style, is correct. Obviously something is wrong because the Holy Spirit would not cause disunity, right?

    And then, we go onto the gender issue. Sally gets up in church and discusses 1 Corinthians 13 and it is in keeping with orthodox teaching on the matter. Then, in another church, Pastor Fred gets up and says the exact same thing. So, if you do not believe oman has “authority” yet she says exactly the same thing Fred said, so what is this elusive “authority” and why does Fred have it and Sally not have it. What is “authority?”

  194. Seeker

    I still don’t get it. What is that authority which differentiates secular leadership from spiritual leadership? And how is that authority exercised so that it is unique? I used to go to a church which had an unwritten “rule” that the east is 6000 years old, i spoke to the pastor. he said he knew he was correct. I think he is wrong, dead wrong. So, because he is “in authority” what should I do? Submit to this teaching because he “has authority?”

    Well, I know what I did. I left and have written extensively on this subject.So, did i disobey “authority?” And if these guys get some special leading from the Spirit, why do they disagree on this matter?

  195. Diane
    These guys do not know what “authority” is. According to them, it is whatever they say. Take Tim Challies- a woman can’t read Scripture out loud in church because that is authoritative. Let me get this straight. If i read, verbatim, Romans 1 and so does a guy, what is the difference? I need someone to tell me what authority really is beyond being a CEO of a rowboat. I do not think they know. And that is why we can’t raise any questions.

  196. True authority does not come automatically with a position or title as in the worldly system. Most church models assume completely the worldly model of authority. Deb or Dee wrote a great post about this.

    Jesus said it shouldn’t be so among the believers.

    I have had the pleasure and blessing to have had several people in my life that I considered to be my authorities. They were humble people that loved me, had tremendous life experience, and whenever they said something to me even if it was not what I wanted to hear I listened carefully and took to heart their perspectives.

    They were never clergy or in any official position within the church. Never.

    There is a huge misunderstanding and disconnect in the church about the distinction between assumed authority vs actual real earned authority. Tradition says that seminary is the most essential qualification for authority. Good luck accepting theology from someone because they have a degree or title. You’ll spend your life in bondage to conundrums like “limited unlimited atonement”. In other words you will accept pure hogwash as truth.

    Real true authorities will urge us to think and reason for ourselves because that’s the path they themselves are on. They will want to walk the questioning road with us and delight in it. Most “pastors” are scared to death of a member that asks hard questions. Then you have guys like Driscoll writing books telling Christians what they should believe. Anytime a pastor has some “word of truth” that is not presented as a path for personal reasoning and discovery I would say run away as fast as possible.

    Worrying about accepting the wrong theology because it’s coming from a source other than a seminary educated authority is a complete and total fallacy. Truth can come via many avenues if your mind and spirit are engage and free to reason. God’s Spirit living and active within you is ultimately your only real source of truth.

    If the local churches felt free to recognize the real authorities within the local body instead of giving authority to non-authorities I’m pretty sure we wouldn’t have mega pastors or this whole hierarchical abusive church system.

  197. David
    I have learned more about the love of God from the people in the pews than i have from pastors with the exception of Wade, Pete Briscoe, one who shall remain unnamed. Respect, trust and authority are something that is earned, not conferred by a hiring process or seminary.

  198. Dee,

    “OK, then let’s go down that road. Let’s assume Pastor Joe is teaching on baptism. He quotes some Bible verses and then says he has come to the belief the infant baptism is correct like Ligon Duncan, for example. Now, Paige Patterson teaching with this so called “authority of the Holy Spirit” says that believers baptism, immersion style, is correct. Obviously something is wrong because the Holy Spirit would not cause disunity, right?

    And then, we go onto the gender issue. Sally gets up in church and discusses 1 Corinthians 13 and it is in keeping with orthodox teaching on the matter. Then, in another church, Pastor Fred gets up and says the exact same thing. So, if you do not believe oman has “authority” yet she says exactly the same thing Fred said, so what is this elusive “authority” and why does Fred have it and Sally not have it. What is “authority?”

    I believe the word of God is authoritative…not us. All who have the gift of teaching are in a unique responsibility to teach the word of God the way it needs to be taught. I believe this gift comes from the Holy Spirit, thus in a sense “authorizing” us the responsibility to teach the word well, not authorizing us to Lord over people.

    People who have authority have responsibility. Those who have gifts have responsibilities to use those gifts well. Am I wrong?

    I believe this gift of teaching can apply to more than the “pastor freds” of the world. And you may be surprised I am not sold on either comp/egal at the moment, even though many of the guys I defend and listen to are in to hardcore comp..I am still seeking what scripture teaches on this, and I am unwilling to say where I stand yet.

    So in a sense, I believe women can have the gift of teaching, and in turn, have the same “authorization” to teach the word of God that Fred or Sally does. Just still trying to figure out some things that scripture says on the matter about them serving as Elders, etc..

    I think those with the gift of teaching have a responsibility to teach this according to the guidance of the Holy Spirt and to remain faithful to the word itself. Is this easy? No..that is why there are so many divisions on secondary issues between comp/egal, young earth/old earth, and on and on…

    You also said,

    “I think he is wrong, dead wrong. So, because he is “in authority” what should I do? Submit to this teaching because he “has authority?”

    No..I don’t think that at all..I said somewhere above that I believe Hebrews 13:17 to mention that we are to use discernment and wisdom in who we choose to follow.

    You used your discernment and wisdom to disagree with his position…and you chose NOT to follow his leadership.

    I never said we are to blindly “submit” or “follow” any leader for that matter..I do think that it is good to have people in our lives who can teach us and shepherd us..so it is a GOOD thing to find someone to follow..hence why I believe it is important to be in a local church community..but I don’t think we should ever have to blindly follow anyone.

    We should use wisdom and discernment in who we want to follow.

    You also said,

    “What is that authority which differentiates secular leadership from spiritual leadership? And how is that authority exercised so that it is unique?”

    Spiritual gifts differentiate this, although I think spiritual gifts can be used in the secular world too of course, not just the “church” world.

    I think that authority should be exercised in submission to the ultimate authority, with humility, following the requirements given by scripture..and so on.

  199. Actually I’ve learned the most from my wife and children. Just being a husband and dad and the desires of my heart in those capacities lead me to think about and know God in a way that no sermon could ever touch.

    They are my “deep end” of theology.

  200. Seeker,

    How will I know if someone has the “authorized” gift of teaching and is exercising it in any given teaching?

  201. For those who could use some beauty today (and have an hour and a half to spare!):

    http://ptmin.podbean.com/2011/06/23/living-by-the-spirit/

    This is a talk that Frank Viola gave on Romans 8. It is the very best explanation of the gospel I have ever heard. That is not hyperbole. Please, if you (like me) are always getting snagged on your inability to “live the Christian life”, take some time to listen to this. I know I’ll be going back to it again.

  202. Guess the Bibles of the leaders of Elevation Church don’t have Luke 18 or Matthew 17 in them. Look especially at Matthew 17 to see what waits for people who cause one of the little ones”children” and others to sin along with Jesus admonitions to his disciples not to forbid children to come close to him. I don’t know exactly who these foks are elevating, it sure isn’t Jesus.

  203. David,

    A number of things I suppose. First you have to use discernment and wisdom…this is not a blind thing to follow just because a guy in a suit is your “pastor”…

    What does the fruit of his life show? Is he a doer of the word that he teaches?

    Is his teaching consistent with the orthodox view of the Good News of Jesus Christ…or is it something else?

    Does he love Jesus? Can you see the love he has for Jesus?

    Does he express humility in his teaching? Or is it all about him?

    More could be said, but the above, along with your discernment, should help you to see if this gift is genuine and he is exercising gift well.

    I hope this helps answer your questions David

  204. Seeker
    I still do not understand. Although i bring up the gender issue, I only do so for the sake of argument. I am not trying to get into the egal/comp debate. Joh Piper and Tim Challies both say that simply reading the words of the bible out loud in church constitutes authority. So, as such, they do not believe a woman can read it, verbatim, out loud because of “authority.”

    What I am driving at is this. What in the world is that “authority” that differentiates people who are merely rote reading from the Bible? Why does this occur in a church service? What is the spiritual change that takes place within a church building or meeting that is made up of Christians and observers.What is a woman lacking in her soul that disallows her from reading the Bible out loud according to these theological giants?

    What happens when said “unauthorized” person steps over the physical threshold of the church building to make reading out loud “non authoritative?”

    Now, when I used my discernment to leave a church due to its adherence to secondary issues, am I rejecting authority? Take Mars Hill and SGM. They say if you leave a church, you must get their permission because they are “in authority” over you. Why can I choose to leave tho authority since I am not “in authority?”They, along with other Calvinistas, claim to have some sort of authority over my comings and goings. Do they? And when?

    Finally, anyone who thinks he can “lord over” anyone else because he can give a nifty sermon is almost laughable.

  205. David
    But your site is a woman and therefore has no authority to teach you anything if the Calvinistas are to be believed.

  206. David

    I had an elder, who I had just met, tell me i needed to trust him. Why should I? Because some people voted him into that position? Now from a purely etiquette standpoint, i would not actively oppose a new church and their rules. So, I was once asked to come to a new church start up. i read the doctrinal statement and it said the earth was 6000 years old. I told the pastor that I could not join his church because I believe in an Old Earth. he tried to convince me that I did not need to do so. But I countered saying that such a believe was so important, they listed it right up there with Jesus’ Resurrection. i said I would not be able to honor such a belief. And, in spite of his assurances, did not attend that church.

    But here is where things get dicey. This guy believe in a YE. Teaches it authoritatively. I go to a church which does not teach such a thing.So, which “authority” is correct? If they are able to make mistakes about this issue, can you imagine other mistakes that they might make?

  207. Seeker,

    “More could be said, but the above, along with your discernment, should help you to see if this gift is genuine and he is exercising gift well.”

    The above items you listed are all based on your discernment too. You discern that these are important things for you to consider.

    In essence anything you ever accept or reject is based on your discernment only.

    You have a particular set of things you consider important before you will accept or reject something. This set of things is ultimately your authority and not actually a person you listen to.

    It seems you tend to place orthodoxy and official roles high on your list of things.

    Others may not.

    But in essence you and your discernment are your only authority.

  208. “What does the fruit of his life show? Is he a doer of the word that he teaches?”

    Furtick removes child for yelling out in church. Check.

    “Is his teaching consistent with the orthodox view of the Good News of Jesus Christ…or is it something else?”

    Furtick promotes wof prosperity gospel preacher TD Jakes…saying he’s the best preacher in the world. Check.

    “Does he express humility in his teaching? Or is it all about him?”
    Wisdom beyond his years? Check
    http://www.stevenfurtick.com/about/

  209. Dee,

    Sorry you still don’t understand. Maybe I am misunderstanding you, but I will try again.

    You said,

    What I am driving at is this. What in the world is that “authority” that differentiates people who are merely rote reading from the Bible? Why does this occur in a church service? What is the spiritual change that takes place within a church building or meeting that is made up of Christians and observers. What is a woman lacking in her soul that disallows her from reading the Bible out loud according to these theological giants?

    I don’t think just “reading” the word of God is having the gift of teaching. Teaching the word of God, explaining the things of God, exhorting others with the Word of God, edifying others with the word of God all points to the GIFT of teaching.

    I believe this GIFT is given to people by the HOLY SPIRIT, thus “authorizing” them to teach the authoritative word of God.

    There is no “spiritual change” so to speak..just a spiritual gift. And I think those with this gift can teach from a pulpit, in a small group, or at the day to day job in the secular world. This is not exclusive to Pastors, or for what I think now, men.

    I believe this is a gift that is given to some, but not all have this gift…This does not make those who have this gift more “special” than those who exhibit other gifts.

    “What happens when said “unauthorized” person steps over the physical threshold of the church building to make reading out loud “non authoritative?”

    Well, I don’t fully understand this question. if you are referring to people teaching the word who do not have the gift of teaching, then I am sure it will show in the longrun…probablly not the best situation..

    As far as people reading scripture out loud, etc….I don’t see how this is a problem. I don’t see where there is any limitation to this in scripture, although I do see where everyone is not given the gift of teaching in scripture.

    As far as SGM, Mahaney, and other Calvinistas…I don’t agree with it..and I don’t think it is right. You have discernment who to follow or not..and if you choose to leave..you are not rejecting “authority”…you are rejecting their ability to teach and shepherd..as you have seen that they do not do it well…

    They should have no say in what you choose to do. That is not right.

    I feel like we are going in circles… 🙂 I sincerely hope this helps..

  210. Dee –

    How much “authority” do the Calvinista’s, and others, actually believe is in the scripture if, as they argue, that very scripture carries “less” authority when it is read or taught by a women? Somehow they get to a belief that God is dishonored when a man learns from a woman. But if the actual “authority” comes from the scripture, why does it matter what sex brings the teaching. God used an as* to speak to someone, can he not use a woman created in his own image to do the same? I think so. The more you think about some of their doctrines, the more it appears that their beliefs are about their control and not about understanding scripture.

  211. Seeker –

    What is the difference between the Word of God and the “Authoritative” Word of God? You make it sound as if they are two different things. A teacher (not necessarily a pastor) is able to help others understand the Bible. More importantly, I think a good teacher will not tell someone what to think (as most preachers today do), but instead teach others how to unfold the scripture and learn from it themselves. Good teachers want others to learn how to think, not just teach them the facts. Preachers teach and preach much of the public school system does which is believe what I tell you (facts), but don’t think critically. It is sad.

  212. Dee,

    I just loved the pic of the bluebird eggs! Do you know their song yet? I’m guessing that it’s distinctive from the songs of the other birds in you area. It’s so refreshing to just step back and behold beauty without obsessing over “sin”.

  213. Diane,

    To respond from your post from earlier, all I have to say is this:

    I share your concern on why Matt Chandler said what he said…

    But I DO NOT think he is promoting a false gospel or prosperity gospel. He stands against this 100 percent unless he has changed a WHOLE lot in the 3 weeks since I last listened to him.

    The WHOLE context of his sermon was a proper response in my opinion to the fallacies of the prosperity gospel…I think it would serve any who holds to that theology well.

    I take your word that Furtick is heavily involved in the prosperity gospel and wof doctrine…I haven’t researched enough to see all of this outside of his affiliation with T. D. Jakes and some other blogs like this one..

    I still think it is a rather bold assertion to say that God has nothing to do with Elevation Church and the people within it.

    I agree with you that the prosperity gospel is false, and that is what I meant by extrabiblical..

    I really have nothing more to say on all this though…I will tell you that I will be looking into Furtick a lot more..and I will see for myself where he stands on things.

    I will also try to look into Chandler’s association to him, but I can’t logically conceive Chandler turning into a Furtick or Jakes, although he may be unwittingly promoting what they have done.

    Overall though, I found his sermon he preached at Elevation to be SOLID! Hopefully it stretched some, even Furtick, to look more deeply into the things of God outside of the prosperity gospel..

    You seem to have really ignored the rest of his sermon and dismissed it is as something the prosperity gospel already knows..but I disagree with you…

    The prosperity gospel basically teaches a gospel that says if you follow Jesus He will make you healthy, wealthy, and prosperous.

    This is exactly the thing Chandler was tyring to convey against through the word of God…It is not about you..It’s about Him. It’s not about Elevation, or Furtick’s “vision”, it is about Him. It’s not about our happiness through things that will “end up in a rummage sale and turn to rust”, it is about our Joy through Him.

    If you want to dismiss the value of that and say they already know that then that is ok, but if they get that so well, why do they continue to adhere to a gospel that is ultimately abou them?

    I am glad we had this conversation though, because I will look more deeply into all of it..that is for sure!

    Thanks Diane

  214. “What is the difference between the Word of God and the “Authoritative” Word of God?”

    It was not my intention to make it sound like two different things.

    the Word of God IS Authoritative. Plain and Simple.

    I don’t disagree with your statements above about teachers as well. The best of teachers help others to think critically. I also think the best of teachers will invest time with those they teach..

  215. Seeker
    I am sorry that you feel we are going in circles. I still do not believe my question has been answered and the is the problem that I have with authority. Something happens in a person’s life to make them “in authority.” Authority is a word that is not well defined. I find it most frustrating when we continue to use the word “authority” yet so few people can verbalize what it is.

    For example, to prove this is not about gender, let’s take a man we will call Fred. He is not in any position of leadership. Only leadership can be considered as having this amorphous quality of “authority.” Fred is an excellent teacher and knows more than most of the “authority” leaders on the book of Romans. But, because he is not in authority, he could not teach it. So, Jim does it. He is an established elder but is not a good expositor of Romans. Yet, the church would say that Jim is the one to teach authoritatively. But, Fred knows more and can speak accurately on Romans.

    In other words, Jim teaches because he is “in authority” but Fred can’t because he isn’t. Yet he understands so much more. And don’t tell me that this can’t happen. I have seen this sort of thing is all sorts of churches,including good ones.

  216. Seeker –

    A few questions –

    Where is this “authoritative” concept given to elders in scripture?

    What does Jesus say about “authority?”

  217. Seeker, the problem I have when you say that the Word of God IS authoritative is this: Whose interpretation of the Word of Gos is authoritative? You see, it’s just not that easy to say that the Bible is all we need to go by. That’s the reason that today we have thousands of denominations, with wildly varying beliefs, all claiming that they just follow the Bible. This, sadly, is one of the real negative effects of the Reformation. It taught people that the church as no authority, and thus, if you don’t like something in your church, or if you decide to interpret scripture differently, then just leave and start your own church. Then you will have all the authority.

    I may disagree with Dee on this one (but, that’s fine because I have great respect for her and I know that people can and will disagree on a whole host of issues and still be genuine believers) but I actually don’t have a problem putting myself under the authority of a pastor. I just want to know that said pastor is also genuinely (not mere lip service) under the authority of someone else. I also want to know that said pastor cares about me as a person (and not because I do service in the church to make him look better), and finally that said pastor actually has great character and some actual life experience and that’s the reason he has the authority in the first place. This is the opposite of a “pastor” who at the age of 24 decided he would just be a pastor and thus, in his eyes, has “authority.”

  218. Dee,

    No need to be sorry. I am enjoying the conversation, just wish I could explain all of this better. It is a bit frustrating for me.

    I am bit short on time at the moment so I don’t want to make the same mistake I have made before on here and respond hastily.

    I promise to respond to your thoughts in full very soon!

    Thanks!

  219. Authority – The three main definitions of the word “authority” contain the words “power and/or control” by a person or organization.

    Did Jesus give anyone in His Church power and/or control over others?

  220. Bridget2

    “Is that concept of redemption from sin what is still taught at MH?
    He is mixing justification and sanctification together. The end of that sentence clearly implies that a person is only justified if they work at staying sinless !?!Please tell me this is not what they teach”
    Yes this is still what they teach…Think about one of their terms used with Andrew and many others…”walking out repentance”
    There is so much twisted thinking in this book it is alarming..

  221. RE: Alan on Thu, Apr 19 2012 at 02:47 pm:

    This is precisely why Erasmus took issue with Luther’s plowboy.

  222. “But I DO NOT think he is promoting a false gospel or prosperity gospel. He stands against this 100 percent unless he has changed a WHOLE lot in the 3 weeks since I last listened to him.”

    He’s just promoting a church whose pastor is promoting and teaching it to some degree…and exposing his congregation to the best preacher in the world- TD Jakes.

    “If you want to dismiss the value of that and say they already know that then that is ok, but if they get that so well, why do they continue to adhere to a gospel that is ultimately abou them?”

    WoF/prosperity gospel people believe Jesus died to give them John 10:10. For them, that verse is all about one’s physical life here. God gives them divine health, power, prosperity, good relationships, favor with people, wealth, etc., IF they just have enough faith, the right kind of faith, (audacious/sun stand still/fill in the blank) and a bunch of other conditions. They do this while giving God all the glory for providing the availability of this abundant life for them. Even if they never receive these things in their own lives as so many do not obtain wealth and are not healed, they have their leaders to look to who are living the abundant life (thanks to their seed faith donations) who keep on telling them to crank up their faith and giving and you too can have this. That keeps them in it. I wonder if Furtick has ever preached about seed faith the many times he has been on TBN?

    Thanks, seeker.

  223. Alan
    Actually, I have no problem with limited authority. i just don’t know what that authority is. To me, its a word that is somehow supposed to be self-evident. I just don’t get it. What does it mean to be “under authority.”

    And I do enjoy it when people disagree with me. It causes me to grow and to think harder. The Gospel Coalition blogger only seem to like it when you compliment them and agree with them.

  224. True Words –
    I live about 30 minutes from Charlotte. Based on the Elevation buzz I’ve heard in the last three years or so, I’ve done some reading about them.

    I, too, have noticed the connection between Elevation and Proverbs31 Ministries. It seems the two organizations have an ongoing mutual admiration society. Lysa Terkeurst had attended Southbrook Church in Weddington, but seems to have switched to Elevation in the last two years. It made me wonder if it was for access to their “state of the art” television studios and other technology?! It has definitely helped her promote her books.

    Other women within Proverbs31 actively promote Elevation through their blogs and tweets. Lynn Cowell and Melissa Taylor are two that come to mind. Marybeth Whalen used to, but no longer attends Elevation and therefore has stopped singing its praises.

    Someone mentioned Lysa was a co-founder of Proverbs31. Who is the other person?

  225. Karen,

    I remember Proverbs 31 when it began. A former neighbor was on the Board. The co-founder was Sharon Jaynes. She was married to a doctor named Steve Jaynes. When I perused the Proverbs 31 website a few days ago, I didn’t see any signs of her. Do you anything about her?

  226. After skimming today’s comments, I’ve got to say that I am SO glad I am out of the evangelical camp… from where I’m sitting, these arguments about authority and WoF and prosperity “”gospel” etc. etc. are (thankfully) like something from another universe.

    Now, I could choose to go to a number of local churches where that would probably not be true – in other words, where this garbage would be front and center.

    But here’s the freeing thing: I don’t *have* to, ever.

    And I am very grateful to God for that.

  227. Dee,

    I totally agree with you regarding TGC bloggers. IMO, they have become quite the pathetic bunch.

    Also, you raise a great question when you ask “what does it mean to be under authority?” I’ll admit that I typed that phrase w/o even thinking about it and w/o really knowing what it meant. Honestly, I have no idea what it really means and how it’s even supposed to play out.

  228. Alan
    I cannot get anyone to tell me specifics on this matter. I can leave a church if i disagree with a pastor. A pastor gets authority when hired which sound like a secular CEO. For all the talk about authority the only group who says anything is 9 marks and they think authority mean the ability to tell you whether you are saved or not. And I know one pastor who is buddy buddy with this group and called some friends of mine “unregenerate” which is a dad blasted lie. For an over used word, there is a dearth of understanding.

  229. Deb,

    I had not come across Sharon’s name in the past. You’re right; when I look at the Proverbs31 site, there is no mention of her. I see that she and Lysa co-authored at least one book together, but the book isn’t sold in Proverbs31’s online bookstore. It’s like she was never there.

    It appears that Sharon continues to live in the same county as Lysa.

    Since Sharon doesn’t seem to twitter about Steven Furtick like Lysa does, I would have to assume she doesn’t attend Elevation.

    Ummm, wonder what happened??!

  230. RE: numo on Thu, Apr 19 2012 at 07:06 pm:

    I share much of your sentiment. There is a big difference between leaving the faith and just getting rid of the bathwater (theo-babble, clerical authority, etc.). For me it was emancipating to leave all that crapola behind. It was like breathing free for the first time in years, and drinking water from a rock spring that was old when Beethoven was young.

  231. Dee and others,

    I will do my best to explain and respond to your thoughts. Alan and Bridget, I hope as I respond mainly to Dee’s thoughts and questions you will find your answers. If not, feel free to ask more questions.

    Dee said,

    “For example, to prove this is not about gender, let’s take a man we will call Fred. He is not in any position of leadership. Only leadership can be considered as having this amorphous quality of “authority.” Fred is an excellent teacher and knows more than most of the “authority” leaders on the book of Romans. But, because he is not in authority, he could not teach it. So, Jim does it. He is an established elder but is not a good expositor of Romans. Yet, the church would say that Jim is the one to teach authoritatively. But, Fred knows more and can speak accurately on Romans.”

    When you said “only leadership” can have this amorphous quality of authority…

    I would disagree. I believe those in leadership certainly have authority in the gifts that they hold whether that be teaching, shepherding, etc in the unique position that they hold.

    BUT, I also believe ANY believer can have authority in the gifts that they hold as well–although they may not be a “pastor” or “preacher” in a church—I still think they have authority. I will talk more about authority itself in a minute, but let me expalin this thought further.

    For example,

    In your scenario above, you mentioned that Fred has a gift of teaching, but he is not allowed to teach because he is not the pastor. I know many churches and pastors would look at Fred and say he doesn’t have authority….

    To me, Fred STILL HAS authority because of his gift. He may be in another “unique” position in his own life that doesn’t have to do with being a “preacher” in a church or a pastor..but if the Holy Spirit has given him a gift of teaching, then I believe he has his own UNIQUE position to use the gift or authority.

    Maybe Fred’s position is to teach through the book of Romans to someone he is discipling. Maybe Fred’s position is to teach Sunday School, a Small Group…Maybe God will draw Fred to “teach” in a different church since the church he is in now doesn’t affirm his authority as a believer. I don’t know, but I believe Fred, Jim, and all believers have authority through the power of the Holy Spirit and the gifts that the spirit “authorizes” or gives them to have.

    I will talk a bit more about the “unique position” in a moment, but let me go back to thinking about “authority” itself.

    Authority certainly carries power and control in its’ definiton..

    In our society—authority comes in many different ways.

    The CEO of a business.

    The President of the United States.

    A School Administrator.

    All of that resembles some “power” and “control”—although that is not necessarily a bad thing. It is good for our society to have people in charge.

    BUT, I believe Jesus came to show us a different type of authority. (Matthew 20: 25-27) He showed us the model and gave us an example of what spiritual authority is by his own life..which is grounded in servant leadership.

    It is not about “lording over” or acting like “tyrants”….

    It is with humility, love, and service that we are supposed to represent Christ in the world.

    This is just the picture of authority, but I believe we can further confirm authority in the sense of who indwells us!

    We have the Holy Spirit, God, Indwelling us, guiding us, leading us, convicting us, etc…

    The Holy Spirit gives us spiritual gifts—these do not come from us, but from the Spirit. I see this as the further proof of authority that we have in the Holy Spirit. Again, this authority is grounded in love, service, humility…but the Holy Spirit shines through the gifts he gives us!

    So when I look at believers like Stephen in Acts—It is amazing the authority that shines through him. There is sincere passion, love, humility, as he spoke and taught the things of God with conviction to those who would murder him. This was the power of the Holy Spirit at work in Stephens life for the glory of God–

    So here is the summary so far:

    1. I believe ALL believers have MUTUAL authority rooted in the Holy Spirit who indwells us, the spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit gives us—but this authority does not resemble power or control…it resembles servant-like humility and love as Jesus had. If there is power and control…then that is a big red flag that this person is in sin, and not taking part in the true authority he/she has as a believer.

    2. I believe all believers use their authority in DIFFERENT ways based on the UNIQUE POSITION God has them in. If they are pastors and leaders of a church, etc…then they have a unique responsibility to use their gifts to teach, shepherd with humility and love, and follow the requirements in 1st Peter, etc. There is responsibility in this that should not be taken lightly.

    Just because a believer is not in that unique position as a leader of a church, by no means dictates that they have NO authority at all or they are not as “special” as their leaders…It just means they are using their authority in a different position.

    So what about being “under” a leader?

    I know Hebrews 13:17 is used to push “blind submission”, but I don’t buy that. I believe it is descrbing having wisdom and discernement on those that we choose to be “under”—-I also think it shows us that we can have people in our lives who lead us.

    First of all…ALL Believers are UNDER CHRIST! I believe wholehearteldy that no man should come in between our submission to Christ!

    However, it is clear as we look at the model of Jesus/Disciples, and the Disciples/Apostles relationships with other believers, that there will be areas in the Christian community where we will be “over” others by mentoring/leading them or “under” someone’s guidance/leadership.

    For example:

    Let’s bring back Fred again. Fred obviously has the gift of teaching. Because Fred is a Christian–the Holy Spirit indwells him. This gives Fred authority rooted in the Holy Spirit that has a characteristic of love, humility, and service expressed specifically through his gift of teaching.

    Fred has met a young man named Johnny, and Fred has decided to use his gift of teaching to edify, encourage, and “teach” Johnny the things of God’s word.

    Johnny, does not blindly “submit” to Fred. He uses wisdom and discernment, and recognizes that Fred has authority rooted in his submission to the Spirit, he recognizes the fruit of Fred’s gift, he recognizes the character and integrity of Fred. So Johnny follows Fred to as his mentee or student.

    There is no “power”, “control”, or “lording over” here in this leadership…but Fred is able to use his “authority” in the Holy Spirit and his gift to teach with Johnny.

    I think anyone who attends the church needs to use wisdom and discernment in regards to their leaders and make proper decisions when they choose to follow that leadership.

    I know this post is WAY to long, and I have no clue if this is going to help answer your questions Dee…

    Bottom Line:

    1. I think believers have mutual authority via the Holy Spirit who indwells us and the gifts the Holy Spirit gives us. We are to exercise this authority with love, humility, and service to a world filled with people who do not know Christ. We are to exercise our gifts with the same.

    The authority is simply “being Christ like” by being a humble servant, with the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives, expressing itself specifically through gifts. All believers have the latter–with different gifts.

    2. I believe ALL believers will not have the same “unique position” to use this authority within or outside the church, but just because the position is different, does not give one believer “better” or “stronger” authority than the other.

    3. I believe ALL believers are ULTIMATELY under the AUTHORITY of Christ, but we will be under other believer’s leadership as well using wisdom and discernment within the church. We have a choice in this, and we are to not blindly follow someone just because they are “leader”, “pastor”, “elder”, or “pope”. If leaders exhibit humility, love, service…if they teach the word as it should be taught, if their fruit points to their submission to the Spirit, then we choose rightly to be under them.

    I know this may not get us any closer to seeing what authority is..but this is all I know. I just know this authority is supposed to be different, but it is often abused…as anything.

    We sin. We miss the mark…and we miss the design of God for the authority his Bride is supposed to exhibit on Earth.

    Enjoying the conversation! Sorry for the lengthy post.

  232. Eagle,

    Thank you for sharing so many of your personal struggles.

    Although I cannot begin to imagine the pain that you have been through to have your mom go thorugh cancer and now your father…plus schizophrenia, I do understand what it is like to see a loved one suffer with cancer.

    It is incredibly hard to deal with…and like pancreatic cancer, esophogeal cancer has an incredibly low survival rate, so I know the feeling.

    About John Piper. I have read a bit of his stuff before. I respect some of what he says, but I DO NOT respect his stance on many things, including what you said above.

    It IS sick that Piper would write such things. Cancer is not a gift…and anyone who has been through it or family members go thorugh it can attest to this.

    I belive Cancer is a result of the fall..the result of sin. It is NOT a gift by God, although God certainly allows it to happen for whatever reason.

    I don’t believe God has NO power to stop cancer from happening in our lives..he certainly allows it to happen, but this is not a “gift” he gives us. By no means!

    This is not to say that God can turn something bad into something good. For my father, he is one of the finest Christians I know. He loves the Lord incredibly, and believed from the beginning of his diagnosis that God was still with him, that God could step in at any time..that God had not abandoned him.

    This isn’t to say my father had good days in this..quite the contrary…He faced fear, depression, sadness, sickness..

    My mom and I faced a lot of this as well..I took it pretty hard. For the first time in my life..I felt anger in God in ways I had never felt before..It wasn’t so much the cancer..it was why God was allowing it all to happen. I knew God could stop it…I knew he could change it..I knew He could heal my father immediately!

    I asked a lot of why questions. My father seemed the least deserving to have a disease such as this…but no one deserves a disease like that.

    For a while–there was what seemed like deafening silence..but I never stopped seeking God, although that seeking was filled with much tears, pain, and even anger. I clung to the fact that Christ was our great High Priest..who was sympathetic to our sufferings. I clung to that, even though for some time I could not understand.

    Then God started speaking to my heart through his word. These things I already knew, but they came alive in huge ways like never before.

    I realized that even though God may not heal my father, in a sense, he already has. If cancer claimed my father’s life..it would be nothing in comparison to the glories that awaited him because of Christ….and I will one day share in those glories too.

    And more than anything..I realized that Christ cared. That he was listening..and when I fully trusted this…it was such a peace and comfort.

    No..Cancer is not a gift. It is hell. It is an atrocious disease…but out of it, I think some beauty can come out of it.

    My father found much of this too. He met a lot of people when he took Chemo/Radiation at the clinic that was in a worse condition than him. He often prayed for them and encouraged them, while he found others who encouraged him as well..Amazing to see the community in a horrible place like that!

    Piper tends to harp on the Sovreignity of God SO much, the Highness of God so much, that I think he misses that Christ actually walked where we have walked..He was fully human/fully God. I don’t event think Matt Chandler, who adores Piper in so many ways, would call his brain tumor a “gift”…

    I know it is hard to forgive yourself for giving her that book, but I am sure you had good intentions. Piper was wrong in what he wrote. That is not your fault. He will be held accountable to those words…I just encourage you to not continue to give yourself added guilt/shame over this. Your pain is sufficient enough in what you have going on now.

    Christ knows suffering, and I don’t think Christ would call Cancer a gift. He would call it part of the fall, but in the struggle and the storm, I believe Christ is there…sympathetic to our pain…heartbroken over our pain…and I believe he gently whispers that he hasn’t forgotton us. He remembers…and He has offered redemption to us where the “result of the fall” (cancer included) will be made right. The latter brings joy to me..and I hope it will bring joy to you!

    I have prayed, and will continue to pray for you Eagle. I hope God steps in a mighty way for your family! I hope he baffles doctors as he did with my father’s cancer, with his healing power! But more than anything, I hope you find peace in all of this. I hope you find the gentle love of Christ…holding you as you struggle through this valley.

    I want to recommend a book to you that helped me in my time of struggle when my father had cancer.

    It is somewhat of a fictional book, has a lot of humor in it, but it really “hits home” towards the end of the book. It is called

    “Imaginary Jesus” by Matt Mikalatos.

    I honeslty don’t know much at all about the author…A friend let me borrow it…but its’ humor, fictional story, and emotional moments truly helped me see Jesus a little better when so much around me was dark and foggy.

    If you don’t care for it too much, I understand, but if you like to read..check it out!

    Take care Eagle..and know people are praying!

  233. I have heard some good things about Yancey, will have to check those books out!

    Thanks Eagle!

  234. Eagle
    Philip Yancey’s writings have been a part and parcel of my life. I don’t know how I would have survived my daughter’s illness without Disappointment With God. May his writings continue to give you strength.

  235. Dee,

    Was wondering if you had any thoughts about our conversation? I responded back to you late last night…

    Not sure if this helped to answer your questions?

  236. I’m with you on the cancer, Eagle. My 44-yo husband died 49 days after being diagnosed with a very aggressive cancer in ’05. He thought his cancer was a punishment from God for a very specific sin. And he didn’t even believe in God.

  237. Vicki
    I am so sorry about your husband. It is sad that he felt punished by God. God loved Him very much.

  238. Dee, there is something so special about watching new life unfold: baby birds, kittens, the children in our lives. I guess it’s watching our Creator in action. He is Life and He is constantly calling us to choose life.

    More related to TWW, it has also been a privilege to watch from afar how Sophia’s blog has taken off from her first sharing her story here and how people are finding new life after all the traumatic experiences they have gone through. Thank you for the work you and Deb are doing affirming people who have gone through such abuse.

    Egyptian geese live mostly along the Nile and in subSaharan Africa, being extremely common all over South Africa. They are very large ducks (despite the name) with distinctive markings including a large rusty patch on their breast. They typically nest high up and then the babies jump down to the ground before they are even 24 hours old to go swimming! Mom, Dad and the brood are a regular sight around lakes, golf courses and other open spaces (even private swimming pools). I recently found myself sharing the water with an Egyptian goose family at Boulders Beach, a popular, well protected swimming spot in Cape Town famous for its penguin colony!

    Does your birding interest make you our Wartburg Twitcher?

  239. Seeker,
    I haven’t followed the entire conversation with Dee, but i really liked what you said at 11.52pm on 19 Apr.
    About Fred and Jim, I think that Jim’s responsibility as an elder is to recognize Fred’s teaching ability and provide him with a way to share his insight with the rest of the congregation in whatever way is appropriate in their particular situation.

  240. Estelle,

    I echo your comment about Sophia. I am so proud of her heroic efforts to help those who have been adversely affected by Mark Driscoll and Mars Hill.

    Your Cape Town experience sounds fascinating! I’d love to hear more.

    Dee is making me want to attract bluebirds. She’s got quite a knack!

  241. Estelle
    I see but in today’s personality, authoritarian churches, Fred doesn’t have a chance.

  242. Estelle,

    Thanks for the comment! I agree as well, any Elder or leader in a church should recognize the gifts of their congregation and help them to utilize it.

    And Dee is right, it is sad this doesn’t happen in some churches.

  243. One of the problems that I see that is taught in a lot of churches is that if you confess your sin that you are aware of, it will temporary be eradicated from your life. That is until more sin pops up and you will need to confess it. They say that if you are sinning that you need to repent and stop sinning.

    This never made any sense to me and it leads to bondage because everybody sins everyday. Sin will never be completely eradicated in this life. And what about the unknown sins in our hearts that we can’t see. This concept makes since to the people and pastors that believe this way, but they have never been able to have it make sense to me.

    What do you guys think of this?

  244. stormy
    I agree with you. That is the problem with this method. As my pastor often says, “Even on my best days my motives are mixed.”There seems to be some who believe that, if you confess a whole bunch, you are just a bit better than those who confess not as much. CJ Mahaney plays the game of “I am the worst sinner in the world.” From what I read, his churches spend al to of time pointing out lots and lots of sins of people and then do not allow the spotlight back on themselves because, after all, they said they were the worst, didn’t they?

    Why do I need grace? because I am incapable of perceiving the full extent of the fall in my life. I confess what i know and then I go onto to serve Him. I am suspicious that many of those “sin sniffing sessions” are used to control people.

  245. Hi, I would like to contact one of you personally if that is possible. I am an SGM survivor, having left the church (in Charlotte) almost 6 years ago. I would just like to share a bit of my story and ask you a few questions since I find myself really struggling with my faith and feeling as if I want to abandon it altogether sometimes.

    Thank you. ~ Traci

  246. Traci,

    Ditto on what Dee said. We would love to hear from you via e-mail.

    I highly recommend that as time allows you go back to the beginning of our EChurch posts and work your way forward. I believe you will be highly encouraged by Wade Burleson, a pastor in Oklahoma.

    Please know that I’m keeping you in my prayers.

  247. We have Redemption groups where participants are expected to share in graphic detail their sin and darkness. The pastor was so excited by hearing men share their sexual stuff that he asked the group if he could bring his wife so she could hear. He was worried that the men might clam up but it turns out they didn’t. He was thrilled because an environment had been created where men felt free to share even with a woman present. — David

    Wow. A whole new way for Church Lady types (and kinky pastors) to get their juicy porn fix and still be Godly(TM).

    These sessions are done with lights out and a bunch of candles burning on a short table that everyone sits around séance style. — David

    Double wow. All that’s missing are the Spirit Guides and automatic trance channelling. Or Legba opening de gate for de Loa.

    Wait…

    Quasi-occult trappings… Table like a candle-lit altar in the dark… Lurid juicy tales of Sin & Darkness (a lot of them sexual)… The pastor’s name wouldn’t happen to be “Aliester Crowley”, would it?