Mars Hill Robotics – Training Kids the Martian Way

 "Ultimately, I'd like to see a kids' Bible with Mars Hill illustrators — kinda cool, dark, a lot of the bloody Old Testament stories.  The boys'll like it, too.  We're gonna do it Mars Hill style."  Mark Driscoll

The Rizers Downloadable Wallpaper

Downloadable Wallpaper from www.therizers.com

Last year Mark Driscoll, stirred by the Holy Spirit, cast a vision for the Mars Hill family.  He began by sharing the following:

"How could we do a better job welcoming children to Jesus cause He says that's part of our ministry?  So some months ago the Holy Spirit started stirring in my heart and soul and mind –  what could we do to do a better job in children's ministry at Mars Hill?  So let me cast a little vision for you that I'm really excited about… We're calling it Mars Hill Kids.  It won't happen immediately.  It's gonna take some time.  But what I want to do is I want to start preparing our children for ministry at age two, O.K.?  And here's how I see it.  I want what happens in kids' ministry to be a mirror, an age appropriate mirror, of what we do on Sunday and what we do together as a church. And I've reverse engineered it, and the way we're going we're gonna have thousands of kids, which means on Sundays scattered across what shortly will be four states, God willing, we would need 400 Sunday School teachers to give age appropriate lectures to a few thousand children.  That's impossible to do with quality assurance across the board.  But we are a video church, so I thought well what if…"

Here is what he said.

Mark Driscoll's vision became a reality this year as Mars Hill made this announcement: 

Mars Hill Kids Team Up With The Rizers

"Last spring, Pastor Mark laid out a grand vision for the future of kids’ ministry at Mars Hill. This Sunday, January 8, Mars Hill Kids will roll out the first edition of our brand-new kids’ curriculum: Doctrine for Kids. In this post, Kids’ Ministry and Curriculum Director Chrissie Wright gives a preview for parents of what to expect with the new series, including some joyful, kid-appropriate music from one of our favorite bands."

That 'favorite band' that is helping kids ROCK OUT while learning Bible verses is called The Rizers. Can you believe it?! The band has its very own Facebook page! Here is a brief description that can be found there. 

"We are the Rizers, we’re gonna rize up and praise God!
We are memoRizers, we’re gonna hide God’s Word in our hearts!"

"We are The Rizers, a band that sings Scripture verses in the form of upbeat, kid-friendly music. Our name is short for "memorizers"- oh snap!"

Allow me to introduce you to these imaginary band members:

* Gracie the spunky energetic lead singer of The Rizers

* Mattie C. the leader of the Rizers

* A-Yo the cool kat drummer

* Mei Mei – the quiet one who can really belt it out when performing

* Johnny Danger – the "I am Third" kinda guy (God first, others second and himself third)

The Rizers also have a website that includes the following information:  "Super Big Robot, LLC is a Seattle, Washington based media and entertainment company whose mission is to encourage children and families in their relationship with Jesus Christ."

I have never heard of The Rizers or "Super Big Robot, LLC", so I watched the following video featuring the musical artists behind the band:

In order to demonstrate how The Rizers are being used in the kids' ministry at Mars Hill, here is the song that was featured on January 8, 2012.  It is based on Psalm 136:2-4 and focuses on the Trinity:

Now that you have an understanding of Mark Driscoll's "vision" for the kids' ministry at Mars Hill, let's take a look at an article published on January 31, 2012, in The Stranger entitled "Church or Cult: The Control-Freaky Ways of Mars Hill".  Here is an excerpt that addresses the grooming of Martian kids:

"Whatever the controversies, Driscoll shows nothing but confidence in himself and in the future of Mars Hill, including a plan for the next generation called "Mars Hill Kids." "I want to start preparing our children for ministry at age 2," he said in a video last summer. He has proposed building a "Nickelodeon-type studio" to broadcast kids' shows and indoor play structures at every Mars Hill property to attract kids, "especially the boys, the kinesthetic learners, so they can get a little activity." (Imagine being the gay kid—or the kid everyone thinks is gay—at that playground.)

There would be special child worship time conducted by adults and handpicked child apprentices. That cadre of children would grow up through the ranks, studying a children's version of Doctrine, along with DVD classes and Doctrine-related homework to ensure, Driscoll says, "an integration between church and home." Driscoll has also said he wants to commission a new illustrated children's Bible. "Kinda cool, dark, a lot of the bloody Old Testament stories so the boys'll like it, too," he said on one video, winking. "We're gonna do it Mars Hill–style."

The point of Mars Hill Kids, Driscoll says, is continuity:

So that when the kids grow up, they don't do like most kids and just leave after high school, but they realize: "Well, I'm ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I've been doing this curriculum since I was 2! Of course I'm going to join a community group: I've been in one since I've been in a diaper. And I know how to sing songs, and I'm okay with video because that's what I've been doing for a really long time—so I'm an old-school, 18-year-old veteran."

What does it mean that Driscoll imagines keeping people, who've been studying his Doctrine from the age of 2, in Mars Hill after high school? Does he want to keep kids from growing up and moving away from Seattle to go to college, start jobs, and begin their own lives? Or does he imagine that, in 20 years, Mars Hill churches will be everywhere?

Either way, Driscoll imagines his flock—the membership model, the community groups, the Doctrine—as permanent. Womb to tomb. Just as long as you don't ask too many questions."

Between us, Dee and I have raised five children who, by the grace of God, have ALL embraced the Christian faith.  As we were training our children "in the nurture and admonition of the Lord" during those formative years, we saw many gimmicks and programs designed to draw children to Jesus Christ.  Based on our experience, here is what we believe to be true:  

– Scripture is very clear – there is no magic formula for raising children in the faith.  We have seen godly kids come out of crappy homes and rebellious kids come out of godly homes.

– Parents and church leaders cannot force anyone to be a Christian.  Calvinists above all should know that.

Children are not robots!  One formulaic program will not work for everyone (male and female). 

This 'bloody' Calvinist Mark Driscoll (Justin Brierley – that one's for you!) doesn't seem to grasp that David and Goliath stories have been preached to little boys for a long time.  What makes him think that his program will make a difference in keeping young men in church? 

Remember Macho Man Mark Driscoll's claim – if you get the men you get everything and if you don't get them you get NOTHING!

Yeah, Mark, we get it.  Girls are NOTHING to you.  Don't try to deny it – your actions speak louder than words. 

Based on Driscoll's presentation, we believe the target market of this new kids' ministry (to use 'business' lingo) is BOYS.  Yep, it's boyz to men.  We are saddened for parents of girls at Mars Hill.  We believe this approach will be detrimental to them.  Furthermore, we predict that this program will be no more successful than anything that has come before.  We are seeing an increasing disdain for the organized church, resulting in people (even Christians) flocking away.

Now that Driscoll has taken charge of Acts 29, and he will likely be distributing this formulaic program to churches in that network.  This program has yet to be proven, and we are dumbfounded that those who are selling it appear to have young families, including the Driscolls.  It will be years before we know whether such a program has been effective with their children or others.  In the meantime, lots of music, tee shirts, and paraphernalia will likely be sold.

Why is Martin Luther suddenly coming to mind?  Sadly, not much has changed since Luther's day.  The indulgence preachers are still around peddling their stuff to unsuspecting souls – it's just that they've adopted a new marketing gimmick. 

Lydia's Corner:  Jeremiah 42:1-44:23   2 Timothy 2:1-21   Psalm 92:1-93:5   Proverbs 26:3-5

Comments

Mars Hill Robotics – Training Kids the Martian Way — 168 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hi Deb,

    Last night I watched an H2 channel story on Hitler and the Occult. It was a history of how Hitler built his kingdom, war machine. One of his main thrusts was to get the best and brightest children and train them from an early age to be faithful to him.

    Reading this now has a really eerie feeling!!

    May parents be warned away.

    Today I will go to a store and purchase some Kool-Aid packets if they still make such things. Then I will attend a MH event and simply hand them out as gifts (warnings!). I really do hope they get it!!


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    Tom M

    I can imagine Mark Driscoll telling these boys that they’ve gotta be tough because someone once charged at him with a machete! (BTW – I’m still looking for eyewitnesses!)

    Before you go out to the store and buy those packets of Kool-Aid, you might want to take a look at this.

    Let us know how it goes if you pass out the Kool-Aid packets. 🙂


  3. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I haven’t gotten very far in the article – just saw the first 3 minutes or so of the video – and my initial reaction is that this reminds me of how Communist countries have always developed their world champion athletes. Little kids taken from their homes and forced to be what the grownups in charge decide they will be. Back to reading…


  4. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Sounds Spartan but I guess if it has a male flavor, it’s good.


  5. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Interesting. What comes to mind is how the Chinese education system works. My Daughter lives there with her Tibetan Husband and their Tibetan-American 5-year old. No…they are not missionaries. She is an educator, university level. He is in business. Right now, he is going to the University School where my Daughter works until they can place him in the International School. But this is eerily like so much of main-stream Chinese education: memorize, exercise, sing the right songs, learn the right slogans.

    Another thought occurred to me: I recently read Susan Cain’s book about Introverts and the Introverted mind, “Quiet”. I really recommend it. In our society, at all levels, is something known as the “Extroverted Ideal”. We educate to this Ideal because it’s what works in business, government, and the church. But Introverts and Extroverts are truly wired differently. The latest neurological research is beginning to show us this. So what does one do with an Introverted Child…especially a Boy?

    Personally, I would run away…faster…rather than subject any of my family members, especially a sensitive Boy to this sort of, dare I say, crap. I simply cannot imagine what a two-year old could be doing in a lecture! They belong with Mum and Dad in Worship…safe and engaged in a loving environment free from anything more than the message that God loves you.


  6. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Moniker
    Ah but the little buggers will outwit them. I have seen this time and time again. The next generation of new parents have found the foolproof way to raise Christians. If you do it like x, no problemo! Listen, I watched one pastor who found “the way” to raise your kids and the materials to use. If you followed it step by step, VIOLA! Instant perfect Christians. Well, he had one child rebel so badly that he was sent away to a rural area to keep him out of trouble. From what I understand, CJ Mahaney and Dave Harvey’s families are not without rebellion.

    In the meantime, there is a consolation. They can make a boatload of money for selling it.


  7. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    When I started reading through this I was ready to give MH the benefit of a doubt. Some of the pieces of it look OK. Teaching kids is a positive thing. Getting them involved is good. Giving them age-appropriate teaching is the right thing to do.

    Then I realized that rather than use some of the good things that are already out there for teaching kids, they are reinventing the whole thing in their own strange image and putting it in a hermetically sealed system (and probably preparing to market/franchise it). That’s just creepy and weird and maybe even a little cult-like.

    What I would love to have heard or read is something like this: “We want to love and encourage kids, by our teaching and our example, to know and be like Jesus, wherever they may choose to go or whatever they may choose to be in life.”

    When the organization and the brand becomes the center of things rather than Jesus, something is way off course.


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    CALLING ALL MARS HILLS ATTENDEES

    Can anyone tell us if they were present when a guy with a machete rushed the stage to hurt Mark Driscoll? We are not talking about a little knife, but a machete according to Driscoll. Here is link to pages with pictures of machetes. Link


  9. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Hmm. This is going to run smack into another Reformed sect, er, trend – the FIC thing (family integrated church). In fact, what Driscoll is advocating has essentially been called a heresy by the VF-Patriarchy crowd.

    With both sides being so manly, we may see some sect-on-sect violence.


  10. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee said,
    In the meantime, there is a consolation. They can make a boatload of money for selling it.

    Yep, Dee. That’s the BOTTOM LINE!

    Pun very much intended!


  11. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee,

    Thanks for sharing the pictures of machetes with those who have never seen one.

    We own several and use them as weed whackers on our farm. There is a special technique for using them, which I’ll demonstrate for you sometime. 🙂


  12. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I agree with training kids from a young age. What makes me uncomfortable here is that they put more emphasis on training kids to fit seamlessly into Mars Hill culture than they do training kids to be like Jesus.

    Go back and read all that stuff again and tell me I’m wrong about that.


  13. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Deb
    Don’t forget that I, too, have a concealed weapon permit.


  14. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    That Bad Dog
    Here at TWW, we often say that once the Calvinistas take out the rest of us, they will go after each other. For example, Al Mohler believes that 6000 year creation is a must belief. Tim Keller thinks differently. Can you imagine the fights to come??


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    sad observer
    They will be turning out baby Driscolls.


  16. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    What strikes me about MD/MH is that instead of being in the world yet not of the world (Jesus is the example), they seem to be bringing a communistic culture into their church. The purpose appears to be to bring glory to Mars Hill. What part will the Holy Spirit be given by MD? He appears to have no part. It appears that MD is the Holy Spirit when it comes to the Mars Hill style.

    Yep – think of all the money they make as they get everyone to be uniform in their thinking!

    I’d like to know what the doctrine IS that they will be teaching.


  17. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Bridget2,

    UNIFORM is definitely the operative word!


  18. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Oh, and “girls” will never be given the opportunity to lead in any way. They will be “grooming” the boys. How clever!


  19. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I’m not particularly in favor of training kids. Whoever likened these to the Hitler Youth seems on target.

    Spooky.


  20. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    It is the same doctrine that is taught to the adults…from MD’s “Doctrine: What Christians Should Believe” book. If I hadn’t ripped all the MH notes out of my journal and trashed them I would tell you more…
    Here is a link to the book: http://www.amazon.com/Doctrine-What-Christians-Should-Believe/dp/1433506254/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1332532540&sr=8-1
    If you click look inside and go to page 7, it will tell you the contents.


  21. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I too am not and would not have been cool with this…it set off alarm bells as soon as I heard about it. My 5 year old does not need to be in a community group, nor does my 3 yo…they need to PLAY!

    And just think, the girls would be taught they were 2nd class citizens from as young as 2. That ought to take care of the “problem”!


  22. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I now realize what a deprived childhood I had. When I went to Junior Church all I had was an elderly lady who had been a lifetime missionary overseas who opened God’s Word on her lap and taught us about Jesus from the Bible.

    I have no idea how I ever grew up to follow Jesus considering all that I missed out on. I mean all I had was a godly servant of the Lord who read the Word to me, prayed for me, and modeled a life of serving Jesus.

    (Excuse me now while I go vomit…)


  23. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    A few nights ago, I watched this film – one of the final segments shows the two male leads being brutally assaulted by Mao’s Red Guards and forced to “confess” to so-called “crimes.” (They are performers of traditional Chinese opera, which was banned during the Cultural Revolution.

    Dig a little deeper and you will find more information than you can process re. the atrocities committed by the Red Guards and Mao’s government.

    The thing is… most of the young people who were in the Red Guards started off as “good kids.” But they got carried away in their fanaticism as well as by the power that was given to them. Picture “Lord of the Flies” ten thousand times over… and that still doesn’t begin to encompass the horrors that were inflicted on innocent people in China during that particular reign of terror.

    Do I think the MH “curriculum” has the potential to turn out MH robot zealots?

    Absolutely.

    And MD’s enthusiasm for “dark,” violent scenarios makes me fear what will happen to the minds of these kids via the indoctrination that’s being inflicted on them through this new program.

    The quotes from The Stranger alarmed me when I 1st read the article in question; now I’m even more concerned.

    *

    And… note that the girls in this video don’t play instruments. That’s a “guy’s job,” apparently.

    Which makes this particular female musician very d*mned angry!


  24. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Correction: one of the girls plays a keytar.

    Still…!


  25. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Well halway through that video I was nauseous from hearing the word “I” out of MD. No bible will be used either just the books that are being developed, and COMMUNITY GROUPS for kids so they can pray for one another and share their faith (cause their all saved now that their in Mars Hill Sunday School?).

    Sounds like MD has it all figured out craddle to tomb! (God won’t dare change anything.) Will his son follow in his footsteps to take the throne? Sounds like he has all the next generation of pastors and CG leaders pegged as well. Sheesh – not much room for a person to engage in the life that God gave him.


  26. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Somebody pass me a barf bag!

    Not my kids or grandkids!

    Seriously, though, I’ve been studying how God’s chosen people could have had a direct rule of God, but begged for king like all the really cool nations had.

    And I wonder if some of us at times do the same thing. We can have a direct relationship with Jesus Christ, but we set someone up as guru over us.

    And then we wonder why it sours.

    Linda


  27. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Driscoll has advocated reverse-engineering your life in five year plans in the past.


  28. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    WTH – gee, just like Stalin and Mao!


  29. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    This reminds me of that documentary, Jesus Camp….

    It also reminds me of a documentary I watched on North Korea and athletes within the country… how they were brainwashed… their loyalty… all these things happened just as someone mentioned above like in Hitler’s regime. Insane. History does repeat itself and yet, we can be so blind when it’s right in front of us.


  30. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    All right, so we’ve got the children taken care of. Now for the real question: What do we have planned for the dogs?


  31. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Here at TWW, we often say that once the Calvinistas take out the rest of us, they will go after each other. For example, Al Mohler believes that 6000 year creation is a must belief. Tim Keller thinks differently. Can you imagine the fights to come??

    After the Infidels have been wiped from the face of the earth, start on the Heretics.

    What do predators eat after they’ve killed off all the prey?


  32. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I began going to church at an Acts 29 plant. I have many years experience in children’s ministry and was asked to help in that area. I attended a meeting where the pastor gave his vision of children’s ministry – men would roughhouse with boys and the boys would have fun and want to go to church and girls would sit quietly and learn from women.

    I was flabbergasted. I have no idea how that guy could have recruited the people to do what he said.

    He never got his weird children’s ministry off the ground.


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    Sounds like MD has it all figured out craddle to tomb! (God won’t dare change anything.) Will his son follow in his footsteps to take the throne? — Bridget2

    Just as Kim Jong-Un followed in the footsteps of his father Kim Jong-Il who followed in the footsteps of his father Kim Il-Sung…

    (And it was someone else in these comment threads who first likened MD to a Third World dictator.)


  34. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Last night I watched an H2 channel story on Hitler and the Occult. It was a history of how Hitler built his kingdom, war machine. One of his main thrusts was to get the best and brightest children and train them from an early age to be faithful to him. — Tod M

    “Give me your children for five years and I will make them mine. You will pass away, but they will remain mine.” — A.Hitler


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    Oh, and “girls” will never be given the opportunity to lead in any way. They will be “grooming” the boys. How clever! — Deb

    And learning to shave them just like they do Daddy!


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    They will be turning out baby Driscolls. — Dee

    Complete with kewpie-doll faux-hawks, pudgy cheeks, “I Can Beat You Up!”, and oral/anal sex obsessions?


  37. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Well, I’m ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I’ve been doing this curriculum since I was 2! Of course I’m going to join a community group: I’ve been in one since I’ve been in a diaper. And I know how to sing songs, and I’m okay with video because that’s what I’ve been doing for a really long time—so I’m an old-school, 18-year-old veteran.” — MD, God’s Anointed

    Is that anything like an “old-school, 18-year-old veteran” of the Hitlerjugend joining the SS upon graduation?

    “Tomorrow Belongs
    Tomorrow Belongs
    Tomorrow Belongs to ME!”


  38. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Sergius Martin-George,

    Where is the “like” button? Love your question!


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    Dana,

    Thank you for chiming in! Your testimony is so important! Wake up Martians!!!


  40. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Mark Driscoll = Lenin
    Mark Driscoll = Stalin
    Mark Driscoll = Mao
    Mark Driscoll = Hitler

    I’m not seeing it frankly. (Mark’s way behind in the murdering of others)
    But let the criticisms continue until E-Church is posted.


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    Instead of going off on a Nazi or Communist tangent, let’s try to stay focused on matters like idol worship and mind control. I am much more concerned about these issues. If the parents of these children worship Mark Driscoll, imagine how he is idolized by these young children?


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    True, Jimmy, though Mars Hill hamartiology being what it is “You deserve Hell and anything short of that is a gift” a Mars Hill member probably would say that apart from Jesus Mark and everyone else deserves Hell as much as Hitler or Stalin or Mao or Lenin.

    If Mark had at some point learned to dial done his, er, inflammatory rhetoric at some point in the last ten years I might feel more bad for him. Truth is I don’t feel bad for him even though I agree that the use of pure evil rhetoric is problematic.

    I do still think five-year plans to reverse engineer your life are the domain of obsessive control freaks, though. 🙂 You can make a plan but you better not imagine the plan will come to pass. Nobody knows the future. I still remember a time when Mark said no individual church was going to get bigger than 120 congregants or so because past that size the thing got too impersonal. Heh heh …


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    Video?! Kids get to watch plenty TV at home. Why must it be inflicted on them every Sunday? There are numerous educational studies and articles recommending that children’s exposure to TV etc be limited as it has negative effects on their learning and development. I have no objection to the occasional use of an age appropriate dvd but they need interaction with Real People who will admire the Gruffalo plaster on their owie and the new Ben Ten top they got for their birthday. They need action songs, treasure hunts and broken telephone; making stuff and drawing pictures; listening to stories that engage their imaginations; people who listen and people who care. Sunday School / Children’s Church is not a sausage factory.

    ‘…need 400 Sunday School teachers … impossible…’ Hello? Ever heard of ‘Ask and it shall be given?’ 400 people who can have a chance of leading, teaching, learning and growing in love and faith? Nah, we can make a video for everyone to use instead.

    Please, correct me if I’m wrong but that is the impression I get from reading the article. Don’t have sound so can’t listen to the videos.


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    Jimmy,

    Once again, thanks for the reminder to post EChurch!


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    How much y’all wanna bet that when them good-n’-bloody Old Testament stories are compiled for the youngins’ they WILL NOT INCLUDE the one about Jael driving Hittite iron through Sisera’s skull and into the hardscrabble. It just wouldn’t be a fittin’ and ladylike now would it?


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    “I’m not seeing it frankly. (Mark’s way behind in the murdering of others)”

    It is against the law here. Now if it were the 1500’s and heretics could be burned at the stake, who knows……about “going old testament” on folks. :o)


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    By the way, Jimmy, I do see the Irony that you have to pull out the worst dictator thugs of the 20th century to make Mark look nice. Did that tactic work with your mom?


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    Lots of mentions of “age-appropriate” material. So, when they roll out the Mars Hill Bible for Kids, will they include Song of Solomon?


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    Rene, maybe they’ll contract work to Robert Crumb for that section and for the story of the Levite’s concubine.

  50. Pingback: Mars Hill Robotics – Training Kids the Martian Way | The Wartburg … | Stories of the Bible for Kids-Aggregator


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    Make Christianity fun! Yeah! With Mark around, who needs the Holy Spirit?


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    Randall S,

    Maybe Mark will demonstrate how the boys can go OT on each other.


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    I saw several references to Hitler. I just used this information in a lesson I prepared for a home school co-op class last week:

    Hitler Youth (Hitler Jugend) was established in the 1920’s. It indoctrinated boys with Nazi propaganda, made them serve the war effort, and encouraged them to betray friends and family who were not loyal to the cause. The girls’ organization was called Bund Deutcher Mädel. Hitler in 1933: “My program for educating youth is hard. Weakness must be hammered away. In my castles of the Teutonic Order a youth will grow up before which the world will tremble. I want a brutal, domineering, fearless, cruel youth. Youth must be all that. It must bear pain. There must be nothing weak and gentle about it. The free, splendid beast of prey must once again flash from its eyes…That is how I will eradicate thousands of years of human domestication…That is how I will create the New Order.” By 1936, all German youth were required to join it.

    Hmmm.


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    “Anon1 on Fri, Mar 23 2012 at 06:41 pm

    By the way, Jimmy, I do see the Irony that you have to pull out the worst dictator thugs of the 20th century to make Mark look nice. Did that tactic work with your mom?”

    My Mom’s deceased – 2006


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    When I read the Petry’s story, and the tales of sin ferreting, I was reminded by nothing as much as the International Church of Christ – there are also parallels here with the Heavy Shepherding movement.

    This seems to be more of the same – and as people have commented in other threads, it smacks very heavily of moralism, and tbh of a fair amount of control freakery.

    Looking back, I can’t help but think that the moment when the ‘New Reformed Movement’ was written up, was the time at which the movement had jumped the shark.


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    The music video is stupid. Let’s compare that music video to the following excerpt from the Royal Wedding where the choir (all male including small boys) sing the very beautiful “Guide me oh thou great redeemer.”

    My grandmother taught me my first song at three. It was “Love Lifted Me.” We sang hymns ALL the time. Since both my parents worked out of the home, I stayed with my grandparents until I could go to school. (I know, I know my mother and father were in mortal sin and although my parents confess Christ crucified they still may not be saved) My parents read the bible to me and we prayed together but my grandmother introducing those hymns to me, is the most impacting of all. Those hymns really first started teaching me the Gospel and I plan on doing the same with my son.

    On another note, Dee, I read a fascinating blog called oldlife.org which is written by a reformed man. He wrote an interesting piece about MD and I learned something interesting about Piper as well. Take a look and tell me what you think.


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    Robin,

    I’m looking forward to reading that article. I think the mistake the neo-calvinists made is believing they owned the blogosphere. After all, that’s what propelled some of their ministries. They just didn’t factor into the equation the annoying bloggers. 🙂


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    Deb, I also think the neo calvs thought they could run rough shod over local congregations and when people began to push back all they had to do was tell them they probably weren’t saved anyway. Threatening people who take God and his gospel seriously with the possibility of hell works wonders in getting them to do what you want. Divide and conquer! I still don’t believe all the GC guys behave in this way. It seems it keeps popping up over and over with the neo cal baptists and the neo cal bible churches. The above article seems to link this to weak church polities and I think he may be right.


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    I have absolutely nothing intelligent to add to this conversation.

    In fact, every time I look in to see what is going on, I see the word Robotics and all I can think of is Dr. Robotnik.

    So I present to you, in honor of Evangelical/Calvinista’s favorite Narcissist, Dr. Robotnik, video games’ favorite Narcissist:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wS0AKzzD0wA


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    What is Mark Driscoll’s obsession with reverse-engineering things? You cannot reverse-engineer someone’s faith. Now, can you anticipate how you should raise a child in the faith to get them off to a good start? Yes. That is totally different, though, from the notion of reverse-engineering, which holds to a specific outcome that must/will be met by a specific set of actions.

    That is what I mean about Driscoll training kids to be like Mars Hill instead of like Jesus. He’s chosen facets of Mars Hill culture that he wants them to be interested in, and figured out how to market those pieces to the kids.

    Shouldn’t this video be talking about how kids will grow up understanding self-sacrifice, selfless love, reaching out to the poor, looking to Jesus first, etc., rather than emphasizing that they will be joining a community group at his church?

    The Observer


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    I agree with Estelle. Young kids (*especially* 2, 3, 4 years old) shouldn’t be taught by video. Kids learn through connection with an actual *person* who is teaching them, and who is able to give them some attention back. Actually, this is a little subtle I guess, but as a Sunday School teacher I personally feel like the video-teaching is the control-freak part. (Not that I’m crazy about “training up two-year-olds as future leaders” either.) He’s doing it because he can’t assure consistent quality control in such a large group of Sunday School teachers, so the answer is to centralize and standardize and have everyone across four states watching the same video, at the expense of personalization and personal attention for the kids. In other words he’s not willing to trust those Sunday School teachers because he won’t have time to personally vet them all, and that’s just not good enough. Centralization, and not trusting the people on the ground, *never* works out well. It always has a mechanizing, deadening effect. It’s been seen in a lot of school systems as well.

    The other problem is, it’s one thing when it’s literacy. It’s another when it’s Doctrine and how to live your life. It does seem like the goal might be making everyone the same.


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    Robin, I asked my Grandma last year what her favorite hymn is after decades as a Methodist church organist. She said, “Love Lifted Me.” She is 97.


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    sad observer, you know what else is weird? putting two year olds in community groups where they have them pray for each other. What is the point? In the MH world they can’t be church members and they don’t have infant baptism or a covenant theology that children of christians are grafted in. Why have them pray for each other since if one of them died they would rot in hell anyway and God isn’t listening to those little worms prayers either. I guess he is teaching them some rote material so that when they finally do get saved they will already know MH speak.
    If I hear one of these types renounce liturgy again or say something about those formal Anglicans in dresses I am going to SCREAM. What does MD think he is doing? ….it is a LITURGY MH style.


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    Virginia, my grandmother died a few years ago at 98 and she loved hymns. Loved Lifted Me was her favorite as well. If she heard someone like MD she would literally weep. She loved the gospel and she was very concerned for people who were profane. It wasn’t a self righteous attitude; it literally was utter concern for that persons soul and well being.


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    Y’know, in my kindergarten Sunday School class, we made things and learned songs like “Jesus Loves the Little Children.”

    And the older ladies who taught the class told us about how much Jesus loves us.

    Sounds like a plan, no?!


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    Deb – the reason that all the political youth group analogies keep coming up is (imo) pretty obvious.

    It’s the *same thing;* the same kind of enforcement of ideology, strict roles, no questioning The Leader, etc. etc.

    Doesn’t matter whether it’s done by a church or a political dictatorship.


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    I just realized in reading through the comments that this approach eliminates any female leadership of young children. Mark Driscoll controls the church-wide program and the leaders-in-training will in all likelihood be male. Mission accomplished! Gotta keep those girls and women in line.


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    “He’s doing it because he can’t assure consistent quality control in such a large group of Sunday School teachers, so the answer is to centralize and standardize and have everyone across four states watching the same video, at the expense of personalization and personal attention for the kids. In other words he’s not willing to trust those Sunday School teachers because he won’t have time to personally vet them all, and that’s just not good enough. Centralization, and not trusting the people on the ground, *never* works out well. It always has a mechanizing, deadening effect. It’s been seen in a lot of school systems as well.”

    Bingo. This is about uniformity and controlling the venue to grow little Mark and Grace Driscoll clones. Oh, and money.

    The relationships my child has had with her SS teachers has been invaluable to me. What has really been neat at my church is that we decided to team up an older saint with a youth group saint to teach the kids’ classes. This is part of building relationships and training up across the age groups, and it is working great.

    These SS teachers know her personally, send her notes and have really connected through their teaching and relationships. How can that happen when they are being group drugged by videos?


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    “By the way, Jimmy. I do see the Irony that you have to pull out the worst dictator thugs of the 20th century to make Mark look nice. Did that tactic work with your mom?”

    My Mom’s deceased – 2006”

    So is mine-2004.

    Now, would that tactic have worked with your mom when you were a teen?


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    Ok, I give in. A cult it is. I’ve seen enough; this is mind control! Reformed doctrine for two year olds? Makes the LDS look like the Church of England! Driscoll knows how to run a business alright. Expand his market and brand users from the cradle. I’m sure this is exactly what Jesus had in mind when he told Peter, “feed my sheep.”


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    Here’s another possibility since not all readers read in the same way–Jimmy was pointing out that comparing MH/MD to Hitler, Stalin and Mao as others already did here shows that MD hasn’t had people liquidated. 🙂 It’s easier to recognize cognitive biases in other people than in yourself, right?


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    WTH – maybe not in the physical sense, but emotionally and spiritually?

    It’s already happened, though thankfully, at least some of the folks who have been posting their stories here and elsewhere are doing better after time away from MD and Mars Hill.

    But… how many more are suffering? (Not just a rhetorical question…)


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    “So that when the kids grow up, they don’t do like most kids and just leave after high school, but they realize: “Well, I’m ready for the Doctrine class. I can become a member. I’ve been doing this curriculum since I was 2! Of course I’m going to join a community group: I’ve been in one since I’ve been in a diaper. And I know how to sing songs, and I’m okay with video because that’s what I’ve been doing for a really long time—so I’m an old-school, 18-year-old veteran.””

    Hmm….what I see here is pure ideological indoctrination. This is not about teaching them to know and be know by Jesus. This is teaching them to be followers of MD. This is really disturbing. This kind of indoctrination can lead to taking MD’s “going OT on someone” literally and having one of these kids, as a teen or 20 something, start ‘breaking the noses’ or worse of people that criticize MD.


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    ^^^ Exactly! Like Becky Fischer’s “Jesus Camp.”


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    Miguel
    Well said!


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    WTH
    I was away last evening. I do not, under any circumstances, approve of anyone being compared to Hitler unless they are into genocide. Also, People can leave that church. People were physically tortured and shot by Stalin if you tried they tried to leave the Soviet Union. Nuff said on that regard.


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    ah yes. This will sell like hotcakes, sadly. Every church we visit lately has the same “kids curriculum” churned out by Andy Stanley’s church. (not that it is bad – it’s just EXTREMELY marketed)


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    True Words
    Did you not know that “marketing” has replaced the “Great Commission?”


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    This is just…chilling. I hope it doesn’t come to much. I have one-year-old niece at MHC.

    For those people looking for the machete story, this article states that the incident occurred Oct 8, 2006, so that might help you narrow down the truth of the matter.


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    Skjaere

    It says the following:

    “The church has occasionally experienced violent reactions; a man attending an evening service, October 8 2006, attempted to attack Driscoll on stage with a machete. This, and other similar events, resulted in the church employing volunteer security.”

    Similar incidents? Men attacking with machetes? If this is true, why isn’t this in the papers? This is newsworthy. Something seems off here.
    Anyone out there able to corroborate incidents similar to attacks with machetes???????


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    *digs around a little more on the machete attack story*

    OK, here’s what I found. All later reports of the event state that it took place at a MH evening service on 8 October 2006.

    The earliest reference I can find to it anywhere on the internet is in this Driscoll sermon delivered on 18 March 2007. Before that date, Google fails to turn up any results at all for the terms “Mark Driscoll” and “machete”. The transcript of the sermon says:

    Around the 31 minute mark

    Sometimes, too, it becomes very real threats. We had a guy in the 5:00 service last year – I was talking about how you need Jesus to go to Heaven, and he pulls out a machete, tries to make a run at the stage to turn me into a shish kabob. Yeah. I mean that’s the down side of the job, right? You’re like, “Dude. You need Jesus, man.” Some people are really determined to make sure that Jesus is not lifted up and the God of the Bible is not proclaimed. And sometimes they bring weapons to church.

    So far, I can find no other eyewitness accounts of the alleged attack, so we only have Driscoll’s word to go on. Journalist, I call upon you to attempt to verify this claim. If Mark Driscoll’s pants are on fire, the world should know about it.


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    Robin said:

    “you know what else is weird? putting two year olds in community groups where they have them pray for each other. What is the point?”

    That’s where the MH robotics comes in.


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    Skjaere said:

    “So far, I can find no other eyewitness accounts of the alleged attack, so we only have Driscoll’s word to go on. Journalist, I call upon you to attempt to verify this claim. If Mark Driscoll’s pants are on fire, the world should know about it.”

    I don’t know about Mark Driscoll’s pants being on fire, but I believe Mars Hill may be smoldering.

    If Driscoll’s pants are indeed on fire, the reason Martians don’t notice is because they’re all wearing COGNITIVE DISCOPANTS! Love the name of that blog!


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    Cheers, Deb.

    I know I said I was done, but this machete incident sparked my inner investigative journalist, and I could not rest until I had the whole story. I just spent the past couple of hours sifting through Google search results, month by month, and put together a post of my findings at my own blog. If anyone is curious about the origins of this story, I suggest you come give it a read:

    http://skjaere.livejournal.com/726879.html


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    Skjaere,

    I really appreciate your diligence. I listened to that 2007 sermon, and I’m having difficulty believing the machete incident happened.

    I will be sure to read your story. We need to feature a post soon on it and see if any witnesses will come forward.


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    I fielded what I could recall of the so-called machete incident last year, I think. The person I talked to who saw the blade said it wasn’t even close to machete size, more on the bowie knife side of things. The assailant was intercepted, if memory serves, well before he could get near Driscoll. There was a guy that tried to rush the stage with a knife but he was intercepted because there were already alert people on the scene. That’s not very direct attestation, of course, but that someone who was at Mars Hill told me within a week of the “machete” claim that it was definitely not big enough a blade to be a machete stuck with me. It’s only hearsay provided as a check on the accuracy of Driscoll’s having not seen the blade or not knowing basic stuff about knife sizes but it’s as close as anyone I know has come to verifying whether or not the incident happened.

    I know someone did a drive-by with a pellet gun and shot up the front of the Ballard campus some time around 2005-2006 the night some friends and I met at the campus before a Ravi Zacharias presentation.


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    Wenatchee,

    Your information posted last year has been duly noted in the post I put together about the incident. Thank you. Yours is the closest I managed to find to actual confirmation of what happened.

    Skjaere


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    Thanks WenatcheeTheHatchet!

    I’m still trying to picture it in my mind… Was the guy detained? Why weren’t the police called? I don’t expect you to have all the answers, but MD has chosen to write and speak about this, so there needs to be some concrete verification.

    Was the guy just escorted out of the building and told to never come back. I need more details…


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    There may have been some volunteers or law enforcement attending at the time. The rumor I’d heard was that because the assailant turned out to be someone with some known history of mental illness who happened to be there rather than somewhere else that local law enforcement decided to return the man to psychiatric evaluation rather than press charges since nobody actually got hurt.


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    Skajaere

    Well done!
    There is still something that I don’t understand. If a man rushed the stage with a machete, attempting to “kill” Driscoll, why is there not newspaper story? Secondly, it says that police hauled him off. I am having trouble finding a police report.

    Secondly, what does he mean “similar incidents?” What were they? Were the police involved? Why are there no newspaper articles?

    Did the man in question get mental health counseling? Did Driscoll show his Christian love by going and forgiving the machete man in jail or in an institution? Where did he go? When was the trial? Did he plead out? Something had to happen if the police hauled him away. Lastly, I Know little about knives but I would know a machete. So, this is all a bit odd.


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    Deb,

    According to Driscoll’s account of the incident published in his book Vintage Jesus, the police were the ones who tackled the guy:

    For example, while I was preaching the sermon on which this chapter is based, a man attending one of our evening services pulled out a machete and tried to get onto the stage, apparently to run me through for saying that Jesus alone is God. He was screaming that Jesus is not God, until tackled and taken away from the premises by the police.

    This is the most extreme version I’ve seen of the events of that day. Which is to say, I don’t really believe a word of it.


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    I saw the effects of the pellet gun drive-by myself, as did about four other witnesses so I can at least vouch for that. Mars Hill made a point of asking that people not talk about that at the time it happened but it did happen and I’m sure it informed security concerns at Mars Hill over the years. So there have been at least a handful of things that have happened that seem to have informed MH security approaches that MH has not even told the vast majority of MH members in the past, except maybe security volunteers.


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    Skjaere, which chapter was that?


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    Thank you, Estelle and Crooked Bird–I agree with your comments 100%. I can only add the following:

    1. 2-year old apprentices? How does one identify the preschooler with leadership potential? At that age, you have compliant and non-compliant children. Which does MD think of as a good CG leader in training–the authority-figure pleaser or the playground bully (who would readily embrace the I can beat you up style of ministry)? Mark, please read Fowler’s “Stages of Faith” before you go looking for preschooler leaders.

    2. There is no such thing as an “age-appropriate lecture” for children with a 2 minute attention span (following the 1 minute per year of age rule). In fact, the latest trends in education embrace student engagement over lecture, even at the college level–although a well-organized, interactive lecture has its place there.

    3. The dark, boy-friendly, blood-heavy comic-book kids’ Bible already exists: http://www.amazon.com/The-Action-Bible-Doug-Mauss/dp/0781444993/ref=cm_cmu_pg__header

    4. Retaining this much control over a curriculum often quenches the Spirit more than enabling his ministry, because all ministry contexts are unique, even in a multi-campus scenario. The Spirit doesn’t just inspire the developer but also the individual teachers who will need to adapt it to reach the students they have. As a sidenote here, about 10 years ago I was looking for a new and different children’s church curriculum for our Kids’ Worship time. I came across what I still believe to be a excellent curriculum called “The ABC’s of God,” which had originally been developed in-house at John Piper’s church. The only thing was that the curriculum was written for Sunday School, not children’s church, and lessons would need to be tweaked to fit our model. I emailed a representative for suggestions and instead was told that BBC didn’t believe in children’s church (complete with a long lecture as to why they had the right of it and we did not) and that they would not sell the curriculum to us (even though it was available for sale on their website) if we did not intend to use it exactly as they had. After reading TWW now,I can’t say I’m surprised (but I still think it’s better than most other mass market curricula and I wish we’d used it).


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    WTH
    Why would they not tell people that someone was firing pellets at the church? Shouldn’t people be informed?


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    WTH
    Did the police arrive and tackle the machete guy, leading him off in handcuffs?


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    Amy
    Who is an apprentice? The children of the pastors’ buddies. Then, when pastor is made to resign, child loses apprentice status, maybe?


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    Great questions, Dee! We need answers.


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    Thank you, Deb, for the heads up on the Cognitive Discopants blog. I’d never heard of it before.

    I’m feeling very sorry for MD, et. al. There is no excuse for neo-authori-patri-compli-calvinism, and it needs to be refuted in the strongest way possible, but something deep inside these people must remain horribly broken for them to be believing and doing these things.

    I’m feeling very sorry for them indeed. I’m actually in tears! I don’t think they know the peace of the true gospel. They’re trying to save themselves, sanctify themselves, heal themselves. They have no rest in the Lord. They claim the name of Christ but seem to have no assurance of their position in Christ. What a desperate place to be! Dear Lord, grant them peace.


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    Amy –

    Could you explain how BBC described the difference between Sunday School and Children’s Church? What age does their Sunday School start and how long do they meet. I really don’t understand BBC’s issue with you fitting the teachings to the format your church uses.


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    With Mars Hill mood lighting and my vision I wasn’t well situated to see whatever happened at the time but I knew people who were connected to the incident who related a few things to me.

    I don’t know why the church would have wanted to downplay that church propery was being vandalized by gun fire six years ago.


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    I read through http://www.oldlife.org that MD started out in the emergent movement and was not a calvinist as of 1998. When did the shift begin? This sounds just like SGM.


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    WTH
    I think it is important to tell people if gun fire is a problem at the church. People should be allowed to protect themselves as well. I am sorry but a 6’6″ 300 pound security guard cannot protect families from bullets. Also, why was it not reported in the newspaper?


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    Wenatchee,

    That quote comes from pages 22-23 of the ebook version I found online.


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    Robin
    These guys follow trends. If they were in ministry back in the 70s they were probably all into Hal Lindsey as well.


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    I do not, under any circumstances, approve of anyone being compared to Hitler unless they are into genocide. Also, People can leave that church. People were physically tortured and shot by Stalin if you tried they tried to leave the Soviet Union. — Dee

    How much of that has to do with MD not having the same amount of power over his people? A matter more of power instead of intent/will?

    If they were in ministry back in the 70s they were probably all into Hal Lindsey as well. — Dee

    No exaggeration. My head got messed up by the Gospel According to Hal Lindsay clear into 1988. (No joke — I was in Bible studies in the 70s where the only book opened was Late Great Planet Earth.)


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    If there is no paper trail about this machete incident, I am beginning to wonder if it was staged.


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    Lots of mentions of “age-appropriate” material. So, when they roll out the Mars Hill Bible for Kids, will they include Song of Solomon? — Rene

    Rene, maybe they’ll contract work to Robert Crumb for that section and for the story of the Levite’s concubine. — WTH

    Never mind Song of Solomon, I’ve always wanted to see what R Crumb could do with an Illustrated Book of Revelation.


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    Robin,

    Your comment helped me realize something. According to the Wikpedia on SGM, Larry Tomczak left PDI in 1998.

    “The ministry changed considerably after Tomczak left the leadership of PDI in 1998 and later suggested that the increasingly Calvinistic theology of PDI was a major factor in his departure” Link

    Hmmm…

    Did the shift of Mars Hill and PDI toward the Calvinista approach of ministry occur simultaneously?


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    Complete sidebar:

    “I want a brutal, domineering, fearless, cruel youth. Youth must be all that. It must bear pain. There must be nothing weak and gentle about it. The free, splendid beast of prey must once again flash from its eyes…” — A.Hitler

    It struck me that this is textbook Hypermasculinity — define “masculine” in the sense of aggression and domination (“the splendid beast of prey”), burn out anything “unmasculine”, and firewall what’s left to the max.

    This also sounds like a revenge fantasy from someone whose background was on the receiving end of heavy abuse, who grew up the Omega Male — to become so Strong and Powerful and Tough that they can overpower anyone else, the unchallenged Alpha Male. (“I Can Beat You Up!”)

    There are millions of people like that at any given time. Most just stew away quietly in their heads and/or don’t do any damage beyond their immediate circle. A.H. just managed to become absolute ruler of a major nation to carry out that revenge fantasy with all the power of the State.


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    Deb,

    I actually wouldn’t be surprised if you were right. I’m not a naturally paranoid person, and I’m not prone to conspiracy theories, but the more I read by and about Driscoll, the less credibility he seems to have, and the more full of himself he seems to be. I get the impression he would do or say almost anything if he thought it would make himself look good, his critics look bad, or garner his church some publicity.

    Every time he talks about something dramatic happening, my first thoughts are cynical. “Did that really happen? Where’s the proof? Who saw it?” When my sister mentioned bullet holes in the church’s nursery windows, I wondered if it wasn’t an inside job. Such an act casts the church in a sympathetic light with the general public, while at the same time causing the congregation to circle the wagons, so to speak, and go on the defensive. It’s a win-win for Mars Hill, and all it would cost them is a few windows. It’s not like they can’t afford it.

    Skjaere


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    Deb
    I am very confused about this. If it occurred, the guy should have put in jail or a mental institution. The police came (acc. to Driscoll). There has to be public record of this somewhere.


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    Dee-

    I wish I didn’t think you were right about the children of favorites being chosen as apprentices. That takes abuse to a whole new and tragic level, in my book.

    Bridget2–

    As far as I could determine–and this was ten years ago–the only difference between Sunday School and Children’s Church was the time in which they met. BBC had just put their in-house Sunday School curricula up for wider sale, and if I remember correctly, they had units for preschool, elementary, and teens. The lessons were written for a 60-minute time slot. This would have worked fine if we were using it for our Sunday School hour, but we already had a curriculum we liked. We were looking for something that was heavy on object lessons that we could use during the 30-45 minute sermon period in the worship service–our kids stayed in the service for the singing and prayers and then went to Kids’ Worship during the sermon so that they could have a lesson they could understand. Apparently BBC has no problem with age-graded Sunday School but feels very strongly that children should remain with their parents in the sanctuary for the entire worship service (personally, I think the option for a children’s church should exist but the final decision–to send their children out or not–should rest with the parents). The curriculum is still available and now has “suggestions” which I have not seen for adapting it to school or home use and to shorter meeting times. I guess my naive mistake was being upfront with the sales rep about what we wanted to use the material for and asking for suggestions. Had I simply relied on the teachers’ resourcefulness to adapt the material, no one at BBC would have been any the wiser and they probably would have sold it to us. After I got the “how dare your church send children out of the worship service” reply, I decided it wasn’t worth pursuing further.


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    Addendum:

    The curriculum was and is sold through childrendesiringgod.org, which is technically separate from BBC, although the Board of Directors has adopted the church’s statement of faith as its own.


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    It’s probably a good thing Mark Driscoll doesn’t think the girls are important. If he did I wouldn’t put it past him to hire an author to write a Twilight inspired series of bible stories for girls. He could then turn them into a movie franchise only to be seen at Mars Hill and sell shirts that said, “Team Jesus” and “Team Holy Spirit” on premiere night.


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    Skjaere

    Any church located in a downtown area is going to have issues with being in such a venue. I worked as a public health nurse in a rough section of town. I will never forget the night when a shoot out happened at the Arthur Treacher’s next door. The police came into our building and a couple of my nurses were caught in their cars due to the stand off. They were not after the nurses. It was drugs and money. I didn’t run around and say that these people were after us. But, who knows? I just would like to see the police reports of the guys who grabbed machete man and what was the outcome of the police investigation.


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    Dee,

    Oh, I’m not saying things like that don’t happen, but I severely doubt someone targeted them for their doctrine. I’d think it was much more likely to be random, or people causing trouble for “fun”. I my experience, Driscoll’s critics are not the window-breaking types; they’re much more likely to use words than acts of violence or vandalism to get their point across. They rarely even threaten to punch anyone in the nose! (For the record, my sister goes to the Ballard campus, not downtown.)


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    kaelee
    Better yet, he could build on his women are gullible and easily deceived theme.


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    Amy
    Don’t worry. I have 3 children who are grown. I watched them and their friends. I have some news for old Mark. His program will not prevent any kids from doing things that kids do. He will see a bunch of them walk away from the faith, to return some years later. Most of these programs are started by guys who have not had their kids grow up yet. They believe they have the “solution” to the problem. They don’t. It’s just one more program for people to spend their money on.


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    Skjaere
    I paid to get into the Seattle newspaper archives and couldn’t find one thing about this stuff. Police arrests are a matter of public record. Do you know anyone who can check that date with the police blotter?


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    So at our church the 2 years olds just play in the nursery except for a 15 minute time period when they’re invited (not forced!) to join the 3 year olds for Bible Story Time. And guess what happens during that time? Two older women tell a story using a flannel board! And the kids love it, esp. when it is their turn to go to the board and put a picture up. In case one might think they’re not getting much out of it, one time when my daughter was leaving story time to return to nursery, she waved goodbye and said loudly, “Bye bye Jesus!” She knew the point of being there.
    I’m not opposed to using music to teach-we use it to learn Bible verses, times tables, geography. It’s quite effective. But for MD to have the kids just sit and watch a video (as one commenter posted why do they need more tv time??), he’s completely taking away the relationship the kids would have with their teachers. This is exactly opposite of what Jesus was all about-he was about the relationship.


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    Amy –

    Thanks for the information. It sounds like they (DGM) have relaxed their thoughts on how the curriculum can be used. Now even families can adapt it for the home.

    What you shared earlier seemed really legalistic and just weird. I have used their curriculum in the past and generally like it for the younger children.


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    Bridget2 – Back in 2001, I had a *very* weird e-mail convo with someone from Piper’s site who took me to task over a whole bunch of things. I had to cut off the exchange of messages (by not replying) because it was going nowhere. (Since whoever the BBC/DG person was, they thought I needed to be schooled!)

    This all came up because I asked a question (and sent a comment) about their then-new logo.

    It was a definite red flag… but I didn’t catch on to the real weirdness until a few years later. I used to go to the DG site periodically and read in their archives, and as I did so, I kept running across material that really troubled me. (Often related to sex – hah!) I felt like some of the things Piper was saying were seriously off – even (in some cases) coming across as if there was something wrong (mentally) with Piper.

    *

    Deb, re. 1998 – there are lots and lots of comments over at sgmsurvivors about the sequence of events per neo-calvinism and LT’s leaving. Though honestly, SGM was way into the discipleship/shepherding thing when LT was still there, so I’m not certain that he did any favors for the members, in that sense…


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    Dee – I honestly think that the machete thing is made up, just like MD’s “visions.” I sometimes wonder if he is actually – clinically – delusional.

    *

    Flannel boards! I loved them as a kid, and you know – I wouldn’t mind having one now. Seriously.


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    Random comment:

    Speaking of gender issues, I just noticed this (was at the bottom of the page) on amazon.com: The Boys Bible. (No apostrophe in “boys.”)

    However, I gotta give them marks for talking about how this Bible will help boys “be like Jesus.” (In publishers’ blurb)

    *And* it’s NIV!


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    Numo
    If it is true, then there will be evidence. If it is out there, we will publish it.


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    Numo–

    2001 would probably have been the year I had my weird exchange with DGM. Wonder if we were talked at by the same person?


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    Ugh – then, the kids will be told their dads are wussies and they shouldn’t be listening to their moms, well, because is would not be “biblical.” Now, parents won’t need the Holy Spirit and their intelligent, thoughtful brains to think through their parenting. Then, he’s going to write a book on how to discipline children – argh!!

    Yes, I’m being reactionary,and, no, I haven’t read any comments yet.


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    Yesterday evening Anon1 linked this article about the Martian Way and pointed out YRR commenters there:

    Mega Fridays: Mars Hill & Authoritarianism Run Amok

    I just read, and see one commenter still going long and loud about the evils of gossip, and how the blogger was encouraging gossip by sharing details and links to the Petrys story. This commenter never says, “I’m a YRR pastor, so I’m seeking to deflect criticism away from RBDs and onto the critics (evil gossipers that they be).”  

    But if you go the pastor’s own blog, you there see favorite resources of Mohler, Piper, 9Marks, CBMW, T4G, etc.  A few minutes ago he finally posted his bottom line, which I’m confident he’d also apply to all articles here on TWW concerning the Martian Way:  

    ” 3) In the end, I think you are overestimating the impact your blog is going to have on Mars Hill and on Driscoll, himself. Ultimately, God doesn’t need you or anyone else to discipline or blow the alarm on Driscoll or Mars Hill. ”

    In other words, we should all just give up and shut up and then God will, I guess, give Mark a miraculous vision to set him straight.  Then Mark will admit mistakes were made, but the responsible parties have been fired.


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    Amy – could be!


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    Queen Momma,

    Your commented triggered a thought – Mark Driscoll works very hard to alienate children from their parents. I listened to that Nehemiah sermon yesterday where he references the machete incident, and earlier in the message he said something about not associating with your family if they don’t agree theologically. IOW, Mars Hill Church IS YOUR FAMILY…


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    Mark Driscoll works very hard to alienate children from their parents. I listened to that Nehemiah sermon yesterday where he references the machete incident, and earlier in the message he said something about not associating with your family if they don’t agree theologically. IOW, Mars Hill Church IS YOUR FAMILY…

    “PSI CORPS IS MOTHER!
    PSI CORPS IS FATHER!”
    — Babylon-5


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    Wow, its amazing how this particular type of tyrannical pastor has so much in common with all the rest of his kind…I know of a church with a pastor who is like a senior citizen version of MD- and darned if one of the important things wasn’t that they had to design their OWN kids Sunday School curriculum and constantly emphasize that “their” kids were special, more spiritual, above other kids…

    This also lead to young adults often proclaiming that the pastor was more of a father to them than their biological father…

    We were sometimes treated to anecdotes of their honeymoon that came dangerously close to TMI. I thought of that when reading about MD telling his wife that he wanted to follow her around the store so that he could “look at her butt”. Does he think this is a profound thought? Do we need to know this? Is he giving husbands permission to “look at their wives butts”? I don’t think we need MD’s blessing to enjoy a sexual relationship with our spouse!

    I have also been wondering, given the unusual way MD suggests wives might lead their husbands to the Lord (a new interpretation of 1 Peter 3:1?), if he would have Grace recommend a similar approach for husbands to use in ministering to their wives???Just wondering…


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    “I listened to that Nehemiah sermon yesterday where he references the machete incident, and earlier in the message he said something about not associating with your family if they don’t agree theologically.”

    Cult alert. Reading over at survivors I picked up on the same thing taught at SGM.


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    “In other words, we should all just give up and shut up and then God will, I guess, give Mark a miraculous vision to set him straight. Then Mark will admit mistakes were made, but the responsible parties have been fired.”

    Dave, thanks for going over and reading that. Know why I linked it? Because it is a real live YRR pastor doing their thing and I wanted more people to read it to recognize the tactics. He really believes he is right. The “gossip” part comes when we name names. Nevermind the Petry blog is public (duh) The parsing of scripture, shaming and even shaming another “pastor” (who is much older than the one commenting) for putting it on his blog. The pastor of the blog handles it well because he is a former lawyer, himself.

    As to the paragraph above, the irony is they will whip out Paul and twist it to shame you to death. However, when it comes to one of their own, the Epistles are not to be used. Let God handle it. So, I guess that means the Epistles never needed to be written.

    This reminds me of the mega churcn pastor who was approached by a woman one Sunday Morning while his bodyguards looked on suspiciously. She was having serious problems and he said to her after listening for a minute, I kid you not: “God will protect you if you pray”. The the bodyguard came forward and told him they had to go. Amazing! (Guess he does not pray?) But they cannot see the hypocrisy. They live in a bubble and cannot see it.


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    Anon1,

    Did you read the comments (maybe a month ago?) by the mom whose daughters attend Mars Hill? One of her daughters was expecting her first baby any day, and the son-in-law (married to the mother-to-be) totally cut off the relationship. My blood is boiling as I’m typing this!

    SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!


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    Deb

    Don’t forget. The pastor is your daddy and your are the child. Who needs biological parents?


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    Dee,

    For those who perhaps didn’t understand your comment – that the pastor is “daddy” and the congregant is the “child” – here is a post I have pulled out of our archives.

    You are the Child and Your Pastor is Your Dad 😛

    We need to bring back some of our favorite posts – you know, the ones we were writing when we had very few people reading…


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    Yes, I remember that. It is horrible. When/if that daughter ever comes to her senses (whether her husband does or not) she will regret that the rest of her life. And resent her husband, too. That is why this false gender doctrine is horrible for marriages in the long run.

    What can she tell her child? Not that grandma was a druggie. Or an alcoholic. Or murderer. Nope, Grandma simply did not professes Christ the same way we do so we had to stay away from her and keep you away from hr. Seriously, do people not think? And they wonder why kids roam away from the faith when they get older. There is no LOVE or Mercy with these people who proclaim to follow Him.

    And some claim he preaches the Gospel. Guess they are going to have to define what they mean by that word.


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    Anon1,

    I am SO GLAD I found out about how cultic complementarianism can be BEFORE either of my daughters gets married. You can be sure that we are having lots of talks about this.

    I hope the single ladies out there are paying attention because I don’t know what recourse they have if they get sucked into a hyper-authoritarian religious system.


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    Deb, I’ve thought a lot about the personalities of people who fit into the MD mold of how families should be. My husband, for instance, is a quiet guy who is quite content with me sharing responsibilities. If I came in and said I wanted him to make “all” the decisions, he would be really annoyed because when I am involved in certain decision making, it takes a lot of stress off him since he already works 60+ hours a week. I think a lot of these guys that are going OT style on everyone would act like that whether they were a Christian or not. Simply, it is their personality, and MD has effectively formed the gospel around his own personality.


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    “….and MD has effectively formed the gospel around his own personality.”

    I have thought this for years! So glad you brought it up.


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    Anon1,

    It seems to happen a lot with these celebrity pastors:) I think most of these guys are type A personalities who probably don’t get along with people unless those people are doing what they want. If MD were in the business world, he would be the most cut throat and would brag about how he was the best because of his work ethic and impressive resumé.


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    Robin,

    Sadly, Driscoll has brought the business world to the Christian community and is making merchandise of HIMSELF!


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    Pretty soon MD will be screaming for people to repent because they aren’t behaving the way he does. The gospel will literally be the transformation of MD. What madness. I think this is why Martin Luther wouldn’t stop talking about the “whole Gospel being outside of us.” Until we American’s stop obsessing over the transformation (which is a product of the gospel not the gospel). we will constantly be led down the C.J. and MD paths over and over again. They love the gospel just long enough to get you saved, and then it is nothing but obsession over how holy you are becoming a la SGM or MH style.


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    Deb wrote-

    “Sadly, Driscoll has brought the business world to the Christian community and is making merchandise of HIMSELF!”

    And his wife.

    Wonder if she is ok with that. Or if she even realizes what is so obvious to outsiders. How can she not feel betrayed by him with all he revealed about her in his book. That is making merchandise of her.


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    Diane: He’s literally selling her out through that book. Did she even agree to the final edit? Or maybe he’d drilled the idea that she was a ‘frigid sinner’ so far into her head that she went with it.


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    Diane,

    Agreed! What a protective husband. 🙁


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    “We have never needed to build a wall to keep our people in.”
    — President John F Kennedy re the Berlin Wall


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    “….and MD has effectively formed the gospel around his own personality.” — Anon1

    “I tell you one and one make three —
    I’m the Cult of Personality!”

    “You give me glory
    You give me fame
    You give me Power in your God’s name
    I am all that you want Me to be —
    I’m the Cult of Personality!”

    It seems to happen a lot with these celebrity pastors:) I think most of these guys are type A personalities who probably don’t get along with people unless those people are doing what they want. If MD were in the business world, he would be the most cut throat and would brag about how he was the best because of his work ethic and impressive resumé. — Robin

    Kind of like Deadwood‘s version of George Hearst with a Christian coat of paint?


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    Anon1
    Comment removed. We need to be careful with diagnosing specifically. See FBC Jax situation. Email us with questions. We certainly understand the sentiment. We just need to be cautious.


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    Dee – there’s another comment re. “sociopathic narcissist,” though…


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    I am part of an Acts 29 church plant and our children’s ministry is growing rapidly. I’m glad to say that it currently does not look anything like what Driscoll is envisioning for MHC. Unfortunately though, our elementary school aged class, which is just beginning now, is using material from John Piper’s “Desiring God” ministry.


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    Lee –

    Why do you say “unfortunately” in your comment regarding using Desiring God materials for elementary age children? Could you elaborate if you are familiar with the material? I understand if you can’t or don’t care to though.


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    I said “unfortunately” because I am not a fan of Piper.


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    Lee –

    I am not either. I was just wondering if there was something in the materials themselves that you found troubling. Such as, are they teaching “complementarian” beliefs to children. There is concern that they would make this a foundational issue with children since they make it one with adults.


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    Well, I actually haven’t had a chance to review any of the materials. Our elementary-aged children’s ministry is just beginning, and I just discovered a couple weeks ago that they would be utilizing the Desiring God resources in that class. My initial reaction to learning this is to feel disappointed, because of my general frustration with John Piper. I need to ask if I can take a look at the materials that are being used.


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    Concerning children’s materials, some messages can be subtle (although not my hyperscrutinizing eyes).

    For example, I remember seeing my daughter’s handout from sunday school some years ago that she brought home. The topic was from the book of Acts, about Apollos being taught by Aquila and Priscilla. The picture on the handout showed Apollos seated at one end of a table listening intently, and Aquila seated at the other end of the table emphatically speaking and gesturing.

    Guess what Priscilla was doing? She was standing elsewhere, arranging flowers in a vase, eyes down, mouth tightly shut in a closed smile. There was no seat for her at the table.

    A powerful message in that one, filed into a child’s mind.


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    elastigirl – yikes!

    Very unsubtle, too. Reminds me of the common “when you grow up” tropes that were in kids’ books of my era (baby boom). Girls could be nurses, moms and teachers, but boys got to do all kinds of active things (firemen, doctors, etc.) that kids think are wonderful.

    (Not that I think there’s anything wrong with wanting to be a mom, nurse or teacher, but there were no male corollaries – y’know, like dad, teacher, etc. etc. etc.).

    This made me angry when I was quite young and it still does…


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    Elastigirl –

    I agree. That is why I was asking. I am concerned about Desiring God materials for kids because of Piper’s strong stance on complementarianism. Will his beliefs on gender be taught in the materials?


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    Re: subtle messages— Just went to Vision Forum site last night and the picture for boy materials has 3 lads marching and playing music in colonial outfits. Girl materials shows 3 girls in colonial outfits doing……. Nothing!


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    My formerly-acts-29 church uses Grudem’s Big Truths For Young Hearts. I’ve not checked it out, due to no young kids, but I wonder if he might slip ESS in there.


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    Wow! These responses are just ridiculous and sinful; as is this post. The argument that you all are making doesn’t even follow the premise. If you all are indeed Christians, then I suggest you repent. This is just prideful. Oh, and before you jump on me for being a Mars Hillite, understand that I am not a Mars Hill member, I live in Alaska, and I am a member (and audio director) of a fundamentalist independent Baptist church. So, even though I am a world away from Mark Driscoll’s teachings I, as a Christian in full-time ministry, appreciate the sacrifices that Mark has made and look up to his leadership as the teaching pastor at one of the nations largest growing churches. I am thankful that Mars Hill has taken a personal responsibility for God’s great commission. I am disgusted that you all find this ministry as something to bash and belittle.


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    David,

    Thanks for your input. At least we allow it, unlike your hero who doesn’t allow feedback and scrubs his websites and deletes incriminating information that originates with him.