“What your PASTOR is afraid to tell you…”

Brother Mark is so brave, isn’t he?

Hmm… Deb, I don’t know if you’ve ever watched “Glee,” but there’s a character on it (Noah Puckerman) who is (I think) partly a parody of MD. (Not sure if you would feel OK about watching “Glee” – just saying.)

If I can find a good clip of the character and a line about being a “dude” (complete with hideous Mohawk) I will post it.

Why oh why do we talk about sex in such an erotic manner and then be angry when our singles in the congregation engage in sex??!!! If you start getting graphic isn’t that going to prompt a physical and physiological response? One of my favorite authors/speakers is an Episcopalian named Paul Zahl who asserts that “Sex is Christianity’s nightmare” I think he is right. Mark Driscoll no matter how you try to spin it, as a fallen creation we are all sexually broken. Our sex lives, Christian or non are never going to be how you claim they should be. Heck, MD even admits that things in his marriage were kind of a drag for quite some time. This over emphasis on sex no scratch that, This over emphasis on the best, most mind blowing, orgasmic sex being THE priority of a marriage is completely disastrous. Also, this non stop talk about sex is NOT orthodox in any sense be it reformed, lutheran, arminian. MD may believe in the 5 points of Calvinism but he is NOT in any sense of the word reformed. Plus, Dee have you noticed that most Neo Calvinistas use seeker sensitive techniques in order to try to motivate people to get involved in church? It is disturbing.

Lastly, MD being rude and inappropriate is NOT the mark of man!!! I may not be a 5 pointer or reformed but I would sure have a lot more respect for Piper et. al if someone would stand up and point out this madness!!! (I make this comment in light of Pipers insistence that Christianity is masculine) I am not a huge fan of MacArthur because once again I am not a pre-trib calvinist but PRAISE GOD that he has enough courage to take a stand against this wacko in spite of MD’s supposed Calvnist beliefs. If you are a republican and a KKK member held a clan rally outside the White House and burned crosses in Obama’s yard would you go along with it just because you are a Republican? HECK NO! (Lord, I hope not) Just because two people are X doesn’t mean they have to agree on Y and Z and any other letter in the alphabet. So, why do all the Calvnistas have to get together and defend each other to the death when clearly the GC and T4G do not agree on everything. Many come from different church bodies!!! I think that the reason why they always defend each other to the death is because to them the gospel is Calvinism. As bizarre as JMac can seem to me at times, I think when it comes to the gospel he isn’t going to compromise that essential message from Good Friday to Easter Morning just because ole MD is a Calvinist and we have to stand up for our “boys”. Also, the Calvnistas all have this trait of being angry. The angry and controversial, the more press.

Notice how we don’t hear rants from Tim Keller and Tullian Tchividian. I know they are part of GC but if they are Calvnista it has to be to a lesser extent because they don’t constantly try to be shocking. Ok, I am done here. Sorry to take up so much space but I am so tired of hearing about how my husband and I can have better sex and if we don’t I’m some how compromising with a Gospel issue. Can some one please tell me about Christ crucified for sinners? Not Christ crucified so I can glorify him by having sex with my husband 6 nights a week. You all realize that Dr. Laura gives better advice than this?

I love your comparison between this peddling of sex and the mediaeval selling of indulgences! So, teasing out the implications, I take it that this means that Driscoll and his ilk believe that a less than porn-o-magic sex life is the modern equivalent of purgatory, and if you give your money to Brother Mark, you won’t have to endure the torments any longer. Further, he is giving you an indulgence-in-advance to play round with forms of gratification that you thought were forbidden. Actually, I think that’s a pretty big clue into what’s going on here. Mark is a messed up guy who needs help, but unfortunately he’s found a way to profit from his dysfunctions, which makes repentance much more difficult.

How can a person build a whole preaching career on subjects the Bible is largely silent about, or, as I believe, actually forbids in the light of larger principles like loving and honouring your spouse?

BTW, you probably didn’t know this, but Neil Diamond is tremendously popular in Australia, and Hot August night still holds the record for staying #1 on the charts longer than anything else ever has. But I have never heard the story behind the song before. my husband (a keen Neil Diamond fan) is going to LOVE this clip when I show him!

Eagle – good one!

Eagle, I am not a Merman fan, but I like a lot of the roles that were created for her – like Mama Rose.

Patti LuPone: Incredibly talented actress!

Robin, I couldn’t agree more: Zahl is the best. He challenges me every time I encounter his work. If I’ve said this once, I’ve said this a thousand times: The reason Tchividian and Keller are more graceful than the other GC calvinists is because they’re Presbyterians. They answer to authority higher than themselves. They are not allowed to “streamline the authority structure” of their congregation, and their congregation answers to other churches in their local, state, and national level councils. People having no intention of being accountable to something outside their control become baptist or non-denom. This is part of the problem: Put Driscol or Piper in a presbyterian denomination, they’ll be called on the carpet for their nonsense very fast, and they can loose their job over it. A friend of mine is a PCA minister, and they prosecute preachers veering from orthodox doctrine in their denominational councils. It’s a TON of red tape, but the results are worth it, imo.

That’s an interesting observation about accountability for Presbyterians, and your raising the issue of denominations makes me realise something else. I can’t comment on the American scene, it’s a very different denominational mix over here, and baptists are a relatively small group. But I think it get’s back to the difference between Calvinists and Calvinistas. Here in Sydney the biggest evangelical group are the Anglicans, and believe me, Sydney Anglicans are not just low church, they’re low church doing the limbo! And they’re Calvinist, complementarian (Phillip Jensen is famous for remarking that’it’s a sin for a woman to preach, and a sin for a man to listen to her’) and cessationist. The Presbyterians are all of those things too. But when I wanted to do Hebrew as part of my theology degree, and needed to do it as a cross-institutional credit (i.e. do it at another college and have it credited back to my degree) I was quite happy to do it at the Prezzie college. I knew I would be treated graciously and respectfully despite some crucial theological differences. The Anglicans would have been much ruder about my belief that I could preach and teach in spite of being a woman. All i9 can put it down to is that denominations that are traditionally Calvinist have worn off some of the rough edges over centuries of pastoral experience. Individuals, or parts of denoms who have embraced Calvinism as a new discovery have no nuance or pastoral awareness in the way they apply it

Or so it seems to me

Bent and I attended MHC at the very beginning.
We attended a premarital class lead by Mark b/c he wanted us to take it over. When he discussed sex I was uncomfortable (that’s putting it mildly). The couples laugh a lot, but I was not too sure if it was b/c they were uneasy, embarrassed, or just enjoying it. I never got the impression that making love was mutual in Mark’s understanding. I think he enjoyed the “shock value” that would attack a young crowd. I always got the impression that what M want M gets.
Whenever Mark preached on Proverbs regarding women I felt “bound”. Whenever Mark preached on sex I felt “bound”. I wondered about the rightness or wrongness of my emotions. As time as gone by, I’ve learned to trust my emotions.

My precious daughter said something to the effect, ”Students were encouraged to ask questions at the end, and one of the questions was ‘Is it O.K. for a married couple to engage in oral and anal sex?’” My initial thought was — if this was the kind of question students felt comfortable asking Mark Driscoll, what in the world did he say to these Christian singles?

Sounds like the Origin of Deep Throat Driscoll to me…

Lynne – The bit about the Anglicans being so (hmm) basically non-Anglican – in Oz! – surprises me.

As for the Southern Baptists, they aren’t as big a swath of overall American Christianity as you might be thinking, but in the South, they’re a big deal.

(Disclaimer: I’m from a northern state and while there are churches up here with “baptist” in their names, they are not Southern Baptist… Also, there are other Baptist bodies in the US, with different viewpoints to the southerners.)

Bent Meyer,

You have raised an extremely important point! Dee, who is a nurse by training, will be proud.

If we’re talking about Christian married couples (as I think Mark is), then I’m not sure there’s much to worry about as far as oral sex spreading disease…unless all of these Christians had multiple partners before marriage, and that’s probably not going to be a large number.

Wait, did I just stand up for MD? Crap! 🙂 (But I do agree that Mark should talk more about health issues involved w/that).

My honest opinion…I do think Mark has somewhat of a point about the church not being open enough about sex. That doesn’t mean he needs to voluntarily bring up the topic of anal sex everywhere he goes; but, being part of the younger generation, I have seen firsthand that the church’s take on sex is too closed-off. It makes the church unable to help my sex-saturated generation, even the ones who are desperately fighting their temptations to become sexually active before marriage. That is a sad thing, and I applaud Mark for calling it out.

The main problem I see is that he puts sex on some kind of pedestal, and seems to measure the mark of a good wife largely based on how she performs in bed. I say this after hearing stories online of women who became neurotic and worried about their marriages upon hearing Mark harp on the topic of men unsatisfied in the bedroom. (Also there’s that little matter of saying he wouldn’t have married his wife if he’d known about her sexual sin…from what I can tell, it’s left ambiguous whether he had more of a problem with the fact that she kept it from him, or more of a problem with the fact that it was a sexual sin by nature–in which case there is a pot and kettle set that he needs to be made aware of).

My OTHER big problem has been mentioned by other bloggers; Mark set himself up as the sexpert on married bedroom activity at a time when he did not have that figured out in his own life. This is a tricky subject, because no pastor ever has everything in their life figured out. But Mark went out of his way to set himself up as the expert on married sex. Yet now in his book, he admits that, at that time, his experiences of good sex had all happened PRIOR to marriage, and post-marriage he had little experience with emotionally-healthy intimacy.

Again, is that to say that he shouldn’t have preached on sex? Well, I don’t know if I would go that far. But the way he did it…looking back, it seems like more of a vendetta to fulfill his own frustrations than a genuine attempt to be real about a tricky issue. ESPECIALLY since he tried so hard to install himself as the only pastor out there who would address it the “right” way!

On a semi-related note, I see nothing wrong with Beer and Indie Rock (provided in its proper place i.e. not Lord of your life or object of worship). I have even gone out for drinks with guys from church, but I can see such activity being problematic if it is occurring as part of an official church event, not an individual night out kind of event.

@Miguel and Robin: spot on about the problem behind the problem, no real accountability ABOVE them. The excesses we see in Mark have happened and will continue to happen wherever this situation exists. Big reason why many are fleeing non-denoms and independents for something more solid, IMO.

When I was nineteen, 60 years ago at an all women’s college, I remember learning about the interesting stuff about sex, beyond the biological basics by reading a dog-eared copy of Van Velde’s ideal marriage that was passed around my dorm. I think that was a definite improvement over Mark Driscoll!

The Bent Meyer streamlining of leadership fiasco shows that “leadership by a group of peers” or “accountability to local elders” is very shallow and ineffective when dealing with a very strong personality at the leader position. He, or she, will find ways around it, kind of like the strongest on the island (Lord of the Flies) will always rise up: you need an adult in oversight or there WILL be hooopla.

Hey, I just realized something… I hear MD talking about men going out for a beer… Is it OK for women, too? I haven’t heard him say yes or no on that one 🙂

In non-hierarchical denoms, there have been two-three traditions (esp in Baptist life). One is rule by the pastor or by the deacons or elders, picked by the pastor, and so his yes-men. The second major line is total democracy, based on the concept that every member of the church is a priest from the theological concept of the priesthood of each and every believer. Some churches had a democratically elected deacon or elder board, that operated as the representatives of the congregation. As churches became larger, there is a tendency toward an elected church council that operates between meetings of the congregation.

The problem is that MH and other megas have established themselves as pastor control churches, or pastor appointed elder controlled churches. The result is that there are no checks or balances on the pastor. Symptoms include pastor’s family members on the church payroll, high salaries, squashing of any dissent, controlling covenants, strong church discipline systems.

BTW, in a church where I was a member, there were some who pushed for a church discipline committee, and it was tried. Earlier, there had been a few people who had been called before a group of staff and chewed out (generally without real cause!), and those pushing for the discipline committee generally included those who had been involved. When the committee was appointed, the first case resulted in the committee suggesting that the complainant need to modify their behavior, not the target of the complaint!!! Shortly thereafter, several families who wanted the discipline system left the church and peace has returned, although those who were kangaroo-courted before still have hurts.

Throughout this post, you’ve managed to stagger self-righteousness upon self-righteousness upon self-righteous conjecture. Your primary allegation is that Driscoll is self-serving at best, and a peddler of peripheral if not damnable sexual subject matter. Fine. But in the midst of your ranting, you’ve managed to levy a litany of allegations against this man that simply aren’t provable, though you may not be interested in factual things at the expense of subjective unctions. Here’s the rub: you assume Driscoll planted a question about oral and anal sex (the legitimacy of this question is another discussion) in the midst of dialogue he seemed “nervous” about having? Your assumptions have fallen in on themselves here.

If you want to to lambaste the guy for being foul-mouthed, loose, intoxicated by culture, too concerned with his persona and his own narrative (you should see the trailer for his recently published “Elephant Room” discussion series–it’s almost a parody of his own self-congratulatory tone) then substantiate all of these things with facts. As a father myself, your mother’s lament sounds like a friend’s incessant whine. You seem offended that you were excluded form your daughter on multiple fronts: 1.) You were asked to sit Driscoll’s talk out and 2.) your daughter heard Driscoll talk about anal sex, before she heard you talk about it.

These slights don’t warrant the contribution you’ve made to the collective character assassination that we all are bearing witness to–your comment section (brave and anonymously so)being a microcosm of the much larger piling on.

Bob,
Deb and Dee have used facts upon facts to support their concerns.
Your accusations ring hollow and your name-calling exposes you for what you are.

It’s not offense at not being included, it is real concern for the health and well being of our younger generation who are being exposed to false teaching from a man who has built an empire on selling sex. (Not as big an empire as Hugh Hefner’s, mind you. But give him some time.)

It is highly questionable that single college students, at every campus, would come up with the anal sex question FIRST, every time. What Driscoll did STINKS like a set up, to prime the pump, to get the wild and crazy sex talk going.

I’m inclined to agree that the man cannot be trusted as a sexpert. A sexpervert, perhaps, because that’s the fruit that is growing and the water that is flowing, or shall I say gushing from mars hill. It is bitter, worldly water that is contaminating the gospel they preach and making it putrid.

And I just love how you attack motherhood, and indirectly womanhood. Your fruit shows that you are caught up in the “Men and fathers know best. Women and mothers are deceived and their judgement cannot be trusted” camp.

Well, keep it up, Bob.
Mother lions and grizzly bears have only begun to go after the wolves in sheep’s clothing (LIKE DRISCOLL) who are devouring our young with their perversion and gross need for constant attention and control.

On the other hand, a president of a Christian school I attended opined that sex, between married couples, should only take place via the “missionary position.”
Years later I’m still befuddled over the “missionary” reference.

All I can say is AMEN to those of you who are doing everything they can to show MD for who and what he truly is! I’m so sad to see so many people hanging on to his every word. From MD’s ridiculousness to the Mars Hill church’s practices, things are getting out of hand and very “cult-like”. Have you seen this video of MD claiming he “sees things”?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVyFyauE4ig

Oh yes, I’m just so SURE God is allowing you to see other people’s sins. It’s very clear in the video that he is LYING about this “gift”. It is all manipulations, folks. My favorite part is when he says, “I’m not a freak, I don’t talk about this, if I talked about it I’d end up like one of those guys on TV.” What?!! He is wearing an headset with a mic and his church videotapes his sermons and puts them on YouTube. So…. you know it’s not a secret. I’m so tired of the filth that comes out of his mouth. He acts like he is obsessed with sex and the woman’s role in marriage. Can’t he talk about anything else? Why can’t so many people use their OWN gift of discernment to see that he is NOT a good Christian role model and pastor. He is manipulative and has his own agenda, this is not good leadership especially for new Christians.

Robin: Lutheran’s don’t have a real polity: One of our distinctive is that we’re free to organize however, which is why some of our groups have bishops and others are nearly fully autonomous. Anglicans and Methodists are Episcopal structures, in which the Bishop is nearly a dictator. Presbyterian structure is the only one where everybody submits to one another, and every leader answers to somebody.

GregR: I believe there is no such thing as a non-denominational church. They are all Baptists in denial. People are starting to catch on the the fact that they’ve been duped: They would never attend a church with “Baptist” on the sign, but where they have been going has no functional difference. Plus the arrogant hubris of “all those dead traditionalists in their denominations! We’ll show them. We’re gonna be the first generation to get it right and escape religious politics!” becomes transparent quickly to those who get involved there.

Dee: Church politics are inevitable. We haven’t been able to escape it for 2000 years, and we’re not about to start anytime soon. Being in a denomination helps ensure that you are at least working together with the masses for a common goal, and despite the personal conflicts, the total sum of the effort is strengthened through collaboration. Non-denominational churches are intrinsically self-focused and nearly always give less to missions (yes, there are MAJOR exceptions). The principle behind the Presbyterian theory is that all churches ought to have a “connectedness” where they share in the responsibilities of organizing and deploying the army of Christs disciples to be about the work of His mission. Works great in theory, at least.

Could you guys SHUT UP ALREADY about the beer….it’s 11am on a workday, and I’m miles and hrs away from a frosty pale ale….doh…did it to myself…. 🙁

Bob: “As a father myself, your mother’s lament sounds like a friend’s incessant whine.”

You know, I saw an old pirate movie once, one made a long time before the Johnny Depp ones.

It was long enough ago and I was young enough that a certain line really bothered me.

Here’s the set up. One fellow is talking to another fellow about how he needed to respect some female because she was so-and-so’s daughter. The other fellow quipped, “One man’s daughter is another man’s whore.”

THIS is where Driscoll’s pornification is taking us. THIS is where Driscoll’s incessant drive to reduce all wives to strip tease artists and personal whores who will do all the things that prostitues traditionally do, like anal sex.

Bob, as a father, has basically declared that the pornification of women is all right and even godly. One man’s daughter is another man’s whore, pole dancer, stripper, oral and anal sex provider. Bob’s judgment, as a father, has decided that Christian women rising up against the pornification of their daughters, of all God’s daughters, that these women are whiners. Instead of seeing the fight against abuse and the porn culture invading the church and the sanctity of marriage, he sees women whining.

Bob,
If you do have any daughters…
God help those girls because your view of women is scandalaous and so far away from anything godly… just… God help your daughters.

Anonymous Tue, Feb 07 2012 at 12:13 pm referenced a conference coming up in a Baptist church in Georgia. The conference is an attempt to bring together people from a variety of perspectives on the issue of the relationship of churches to people who have a partner-preference identity different from the one most Christians appear to have. The intent is to have a serious discussion, based on the Bible and our theology, about this issue and the surrounding issues and not to push a single understanding or position.

The abeerer can’t do so without pastoral permission. So it’s best if the wife seeks out a church where abeer isn’t dismissed like “beers will be beers”. Sorry Greg last beer reference from me

Dave: if you lapse, the next round(z) are on you…. and G-money don’t drink no stinkie brew…. ya wid’ me, bro ??

Sex is also used to serve false bigger purpose$,, as with the Children of gOd I was remembering yesterday. They had the girls serving as modern cult prostitute$ to bring in $$ for the cult…. Oh well maybe that’s off topic here…

Miguel – I don’t think Anglican and Methodist churches work like that (dictatorships) in practice… any more than the ELCA is a “dictatorship.” 😉

RE: Bent Meyer on Tue, Feb 07 2012 at 02:29 am:

I’m very skeptical about an alleged “link” between oral sex and cancer. I’ve heard this before on right-wing Christian radio here in Southern Calif. There was a time when reputable medical authorities also swore up and down that you need 8 glasses of water daily in order to stay healthy. Over time however, it was shown to be bad science.

Good science goes where the data leads (sans rabbit holes) and does not use torture to extract a hasty confession. In my opinion, the link between ingesting HPV and contracting mouth and throat cancer will prove to be casual and not causal.

All MD does (and EY Jr.) is appeal to the prurient interests of the readers/listeners. Nothing more. Nothing less. It sells- books, speaking engagements, religion.

Whatever it takes, right? The ends justify the means. That’s their rationale.

The connundrum: The Bible, outside of Song of Solomon which implies but does not explicitly state, says almost nothing about how sexual activity is to take place.

But I would stand with Deb concerning some inherent medical dangers with certain sexual activities.

( Can hardly believe I’m agreeing with Deb: she who is a fellow alumnus with Mark Dever. -:) )

Arce:

I referenced that as a comparison to an approach to sexuality that is unfaithful biblically.

To suggest or “dialogue” that homosexual unions are acceptable to God is contrary to the creative order and clear biblical teaching.

Being faithful to Christ means teaching what Christ and His apostles taught about such subjects.

The church should not present a weird or salacious view of sexuality. And it should not present or have dialogues about sexuality outside God’s creative order as affirmed by Christ and his apostles.

and… get your kids vaccinated!

The discussion is not about what is or is not acceptable to God, but how should Christians relate to sinners (which includes all of us!) who happen to engage in certain kinds of relationships.

HowDee YaAll, 

Mark Driscoll of (Acts 29) Mars Hill Church in Seattle asked ‘the question’ directly to legendary preacher — Pentecostal Bishop T.D. Jakes, during an interview at the recent Elephant Room conference * at the First Baptist Church in Jacksonville, Fla. : “So you believe,” said Driscoll, that “there’s one God, three Persons — Father, Son and Holy Spirit? You believe Jesus was fully God, fully Man?” Jakes didn’t flinch, so after years of rumors about private assurances, he publicly affirmed that he believes in the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, “Absolutely.” he said…  Jakes also said: “I got kind of quiet about it for a while. Because when you are a leader and you are in a position of authority, sometimes you have to back up and ponder for a minute, and really think things through.”

Driscoll is Boss, huh? ( a mouse in da the Elephant room? -grin-)…back up and ponder for a minute, and really think things through?!?

humm?

♪♪♪…Is it a dirty story of a dirty verby preacher man, and his clinging Acts 29 satellite church simply doesn’t understand?!? ♪♪♪…He wants to be a Calvinesta satellite preacher man? ♪♪♪…Doo da ta doo do-do…

…your Calvinesta satellite preacher man?

Oh-e-Oh, Oh! Oh!

-grin-

hahahahahahaha ;~)

Sopy ♥,†  

___
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_e3DA-Uctvw&feature=youtube_gdata_player

* This annual event brings together Christian leaders from a variety of backgrounds to discuss tough subjects. 

Bob, to learn more about Driscoll, go read the book of Jude.

I’ve compared the grooming that Mars Hill does to women to prepare them to be their husbands’ personal whores with temple prostitution and the Jezebel spirit that teaches Christians to pornicate mentioned in Revelation 2:20.

Yeah, I know. I’m one of the ones who says outrageous things around here. — Mara

From someone else who likes to say outrageous things, you have no quarrel from me. Now THAT’s Outrageous!

(Though the term “Jezebel Spirit” has been so overused in the Pentecostal Paranoia crowd it has ceased to have any meaning other than a handy beatdown for a female you don’t like.)

You think I’m joking?

Here’s a My Little Pony fanfic that shows a LOT more sanity about sex than Brother Mark and his Travelling Sex Show! What does a purple cartoon unicorn and her baby dragon assistant/companion have that this alleged Man of God doesn’t?

With the term “Jezebel Spirit” overused, how about “Sapphira Spirit” as a replacement?
I’m dead earnest about this.
Then Peter said to her, “Why is it that you have agreed together to put the Spirit of the Lord to the test? Behold, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out as well.”
Acts 5:9
So this answers my question of “How many excommunications were there in Acts 1-28 churches, and who carried them out?
Any others anyone can think of, let me know.

HUG: “From someone else who likes to say outrageous things, you have no quarrel from me. Now THAT’s Outrageous!
(Though the term “Jezebel Spirit” has been so overused in the Pentecostal Paranoia crowd it has ceased to have any meaning other than a handy beatdown for a female you don’t like.)”

I was going to say “the one” who says outrageous things then I remember you, HUG, fondly, and had to change it to “one of the ones” who says outrageous things around here.

And…

Yes, Jezebel spirit has been over used and MISused by men on witch hunts for unsubmissive woman and the ever evil controlling woman.
The problem it, the Jezebel spirit, as described in Revelation 2:20, has nothing to do with controlling or submissive women.
Rather, it is about a woman who was enticing Christians to go headlong into sexual sins.
The fact of the matter is…
Driscoll is far more in danger of entertaining a Jezebel spirit with his SoS teachings and “I see things” porno vision than any woman he has ever railed against.

Just saying…

Hmmmmm… The title of this thread is “Brother Mark’s Traveling Sex Show” huh? Well kidz, one can certainly see why the title would elicit offense and yes, even outrage from certain segments of the evangelical subculture given its uneasy truce with human sexuality. But then it hits me just now like a splat of bird crap on my balding pate. Forget offense & outrage at Brother Mark’s latest show, how bout’ just plain stupid?

That picture just kept bugging me and I just realized why. It seems to imply that WOMEN are the problem and WOMEN should be naked and WOMEN need help and WOMEN need to change. AND little Mark is the one to set them straight – puke!!!

That wasn’t really a poster that got used, was it? The design of the poster makes it look like Mark is awkwardly resisting the temptation to check out the woman on the other side of the poster.

WTH –

That’s what I am curious about too.

Deb ?

WTH and Bridget2,

From what I understand, the UNC CRU leaders use their website for communication. I am assuming that this was featured there because it appears students get updates there. Not sure if posters were printed and posted on campus.

Amy,

Thanks for the information! I read most of it. I also noticed the following at the link you provided:

“A manifesto on our core convictions: gospel-centered theology, Spirit-filled or empowered lives, complementarian relationships, and missional churches.”

T4G just posted a clip on their website that states that complementarianism is one of their core beliefs and it not open for compromise.

At least we know where they stand so we can make an informed decision…

My thought exactly. I personally have an even bigger problem with a lack of up-frontness (word?) than with the doctrine itself. It’s too close to academic dishonesty in my book. I’ve had church leaders try and redirect my service to more “acceptable” ministries under the guise of “what we really need is someone to do [x].” I’d actually be less frustrated if told at the outset “we’re not comfortable with women doing this” before getting involved.

My formerly A-29 church has had a variation of 3 of those 4 core values up-front since before we joined. Afterward, we came to realize the hidden 4th value (never preached about on Sunday mornings or published in official documents). Will the apple fall further from the tree, now we’re independent? Not sure, but if complementarianism becomes official, I and my family will need to find a new apple lacking that core.

http://pastormark.tv/2012/02/07/what-does-it-mean-to-respect-your-husband

Sigh. This is off-topic. But read this and explain to me how A. This message could not be EQUALLY valid for husbands, and B. How we should NOT be worried about a woman who says that a frequent worry for wives is that they hope their kids don’t grow up to be like their husbands, or that things are easier when their husbands are out of town.

Someone please stop the insanity, I’d like to get off now.

KNOXVILLE, TN CALVINISTA REPORT

Over in Oak Ridge, Pastor Bobby Williams of RIDGE Church (across from LaSalle Park) will be preaching his next few sermons from the Driscoll’s kinky marriage book.
http://theridgechurchblog.com/2012/02/13/real-marriage-series-has-kicked-off/

Speaking of kinky … Legacy Church/A29 does a weekly outreach at a laundromat near me, promising quarters, coffee, and conversation.

I went 0-for-3. Two of these pious frauds snubbed me, even though I was reading a classic religious title ten feet from from them.

The preachers were preoccupied with their conversation about how to climb the Driscoll corporate ladder at the upcoming pastor’s conference.

Some poor soul with half his teeth missing had to nearly beg the divines for a goodbye hug as they tried to ignore him, although it was clearly the social highlight of his week.

After he left, they laughed at the poor guy. Then the great church planters told their little sandwich-and-baby maker that they were leaving 15 minutes early.

That left the helper-ette folding her unmentionables in my line of site, which she seemed to rather enjoy. I don’t think she’s “all in”, and her lingerie collection certainly is not … and she was reading a book of plays from the (gasp!) English Renaissance.

KJ

Deb: “I believe these Driscoll wannabes are doing much harm to the cause of Christ.”

I’ve talked to enough of them that I know many of them are doing much harm to the cause of Christ.

It’s all about position and authority in the sight of others. Or, in other words, Pharisee-ism.

John Piper: “I love Mark Driscoll’s theology.”

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zfjXna2XxDE#!

Did you see this review of Driscoll’s best selling marriage book?

http://www.theologyforwomen.org/2012/02/our-review-of-real-marriage-by-mark-and.html

The true legacy of Legacy Church Knoxville is Maranatha , Morning Star, Every Nation. Multiple ties to Weinerites, or as I henceforth shall call them, Weenies.

Kj

Driscoll has said if you get the young men you get everything and if you don’t get the young men you get nothing.

Really? We’ve seen the effects of the “mancession” and that women are getting more advanced education than men lately what about this proposal, that the unmarried woman (whether never-married or single mother) looks poised to become one of the most crucial voting demographics to win in 2012 elections?

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2012/03/single_women_are_the_new_swing_voters_but_which_way_do_they_lean_.single.html

* at least it isn’t a false gospel… like Prosperity or some works based gem! He isn’t worshiping sex but trying to get people to put it in proper perspective, biblical perspective.

Mi scusi!