“Our heartbeat is to see the campuses of this nation awaken to God.”
Courtesy of NASA
The Passion Movement, which held its first conference in 1997, continues to grow by leaps and bounds. Passion 2012 – a three-day event – concluded yesterday and attracted around 45,000 enthusiastic attendees to the Georgia Dome. For those like me who were not familiar with this huge event, here is a brief overview as well as a recap.
The Passion Conferences are restricted to those between the ages of 18 and 25. As explained in the previous post, Louie Giglio is the founder and architect of the Passion Movement. His student ministry at Baylor, which spanned a decade, prepared him well for his role in motivating college students to pursue their faith. Giglio has assembled a team of speakers, and those who joined him in speaking at Passion 2012 included John Piper, Francis Chan, Beth Moore, and Christine Caine. Music is a HUGE part of the Passion Movement, and the groups who performed included: The David Crowder Band, Chris Tomlin, Hillsong United, Matt Redman, Lecrae, Kristian Stanfill, Charlie Hall, and Christy Nockels. Bios for the Passion speakers and musicians are featured here.
The conference was streamed live, and each session was made available via the internet for a short time (24 hours or less after the session concluded). Because I was extremely interested in this event, I made it a priority to watch as many sessions as possible. The only one I missed was the first one because it was taken down before I had a chance to view it. Those who wish to see the conference via the internet can buy a digital all access pass for $25, which includes some additional resources. That's quite a bargain compared to what attendees likely spent to attend (travel, lodging, food, and conference fee).
Beth Moore spoke during Session Two, and I believe Louie Giglio may have preached from Luke 7 during the first session, although I'm not positive. Beth followed him by preaching from Luke 8:40-55, with special emphasis on verses 43-48. She said something about being under the authority of Giglio, but honestly, what in the world does that mean?! She preached to 45,000 people of both genders and did a fantastic job! Allow me to highlight what she shared.
WARNING TO PATRIARCHS: You must STOP reading NOW because you might actually learn something from a woman…
Beth focused on the woman with the "issue of blood". She began by explaining how this “interruption” temporarily suspended the account of Jairus and his dying daughter. As Beth began interpreting Scripture, she reminded the audience that this woman had suffered for twelve years and that the young girl was twelve years old. That was a detail I had never noticed before. The woman interrupted Jesus as he was walking among a throng of people. This diseased woman, who was not allowed to touch anyone because she might infect them, dared to touch Jesus. As Jesus walked among those in the crowd, they were probably brushing up against him repeatedly; yet He knew in an instant that some power had left him when this woman touched the hem of his garment. He asked the throng who touched him, and when the woman confessed to what she had done, Jesus pronounced that her faith had made her well. Beth shares many more details that I will not go into, but she preached powerfully! She summarized the woman’s miraculous healing by stating: "It was the faith that drove the touch that welcomed the healing.” Beth concluded by encouraging those listening to have the faith to grab onto the hem of Jesus’ garment (symbolically) and be made whole.
I couldn’t help but think of Tim Challies’ church, which doesn’t even allow a woman to read Scripture because it could be interpreted as preaching or teaching… Heaven forbid that a woman would do such a thing! How much longer will such foolishness persist?
Incredibly, another woman preached during Session Three. Christine Cainer, a “pastor” from Hillsong Church in Australia, delivered a captivating message about the sex slave industry. She also talked about how she had been abused and adopted. She was a dynamic speaker, and I am confident she motivated both the men and women in the Georgia Dome.
It's important to point out that one of the unifying themes of Passion 2012 was "Do Something Now!" According to the conference website, organizers set a goal to raise $1,000,000 to fund important causes related to the sex trade and forced labor. The website states:
"This year at Passion 2012, we want to bring this darkness into the light. We long to wrap our arms around those who are hurting and help bring an end to modern day slavery in the name of Jesus. Together, we will lend our voice to the 27 million who have no voice and do everything we can to fight for freedom. During the four days of the conference, our goal is to raise $1 million to fund incredible organizations that are fighting to bring prevention, freedom, and restoration to those trapped in slavery. Start planning now how you can be part of the amazing story that will unfold at Passion 2012. Whether you can give a little or a lot, together we are a force for good! Come ready to give as much as you can. What does $1,000,000 for freedom look like?
Restore freed child slaves
Care for freed forced labor slaves
Rescue forced labor slaves
Prevent human trafficking
Intercept trafficking victims
Provide a new beginning for exploitation survivors
The Atlanta Project (human trafficking in Atlanta)"
During the morning of the second day, Louie Giglio introduced Georgia’s Lieutenant Governor Casey Cagle to the audience. Cagle told them that he was a great advocate of Passion and that his two sons were somewhere in the crowd.
Then Atlanta Mayor Kasim Reed walked onto the stage and joined Giglio and Cagle. It was the second anniversary of his inauguration as mayor, and Giglio presented him with $100,000 (which had been raised by conference attendees) to invest in “police officers who are prosecuting sex crimes so they can turn the tide on sex crimes”, as stated by Mayor Reed. Conference attendees also donated 25,420 towels and 124,800 pairs of socks for the homeless of Atlanta.
During the afternoon of the second day, Giglio gave an update on the total giving toward their $1,000,000 goal by just the attendees. Halfway through the conference they had given $1,002,000.
During Session Four Louie Giglio, Fancis Chan, John Piper, Beth Moore, and singer Lecrae took turns reading the entire book of Ephesians. The words “Jesus Speak to Me” appeared on the big screens behind them, and each time a speaker finished reading his/her excerpt there was a long period of silence. After all of Ephesians had been read, Giglio pronounced; “This is the Word of God.” Then he asked those who had experienced God speaking to them to raise their hands. Based on his reaction, many attendees experienced the Holy Spirit speaking to them.
Francis Chan spoke in Session Five, and he is always so captivating! Anyone who has heard him speak knows that he is passionate about Jesus and his Christian walk. What I especially appreciated about Chan is how he challenged the audience. He asked them: “How do you know that I’m telling you the truth?" Immediately after asking that question, he challenged the young people to be Bereans and study God’s Word for themselves.
Session Six featured four individuals who are striving to solve the terrible problem of human trafficking and slavery. They showed a video of a female sex slave being rescued, and one of the female panelists shared how she had helped rescue sex slaves in another country. According to one of these individuals, there is a movement afoot where young people are educating themselves about forced labor and not buying products that support forced labor. This gentleman concluded: “It’s time to rise up for freedom because slavery still exists.”
John Piper spoke during Session Seven, which was the final message on the second day of the conference. He began by sharing various Bible verses:
1 Corinthians 6:19 – "Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own…" (ESV)
Isaiah 43:7 – "Everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.” (ESV)
Colossians 1:16 – "For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him." (ESV)
As he introduced the topic of his talk, John Piper remarked:
“So it’s clear seems to me from those verses that God intends, Jesus intends, for your life to bring Him glory. It means for you to do everything you do, when you eat or drink all that feel all that you think all that you act, to make him look great… All human beings are created to put God’s infinite value on display. That’s why you exist. Now I want that to happen in your life for all the decades that God may give you, and to that end I have one point to make. … Here’s the main point of the message…. Seeing and savoring the supremacy of Jesus Christ frees you from the slavery of sin for the sacrifices of love. Here’s a second way to say it. Being satisfied with all that God is for you in Jesus frees you from the bondage of sin for the suffering of love.”
Then he shared a third way of saying it: “Faith in Jesus Christ frees you from the slavery of sin for the sacrifices of love.”
John Piper had a very serious look on his face the entire time he talked and he said early in his talk something along these lines: “There’s been a lot of freedom at this conference.” I’m wondering whether he gave Giglio a talking to after the conference ended…
Louie Giglio concluded the conference with Session Eight. One interesting piece of trivia he shared was that his dad had designed the Chick-Fil-A logo back in 1968 (?) for $75, and he noted that the Chick-Fil-A bowl was played in the Georgia Dome. Toward the end of the session, Shelley Giglio joined her husband on stage, and they listed all the endeavors that would be funded because of the generous giving of attendees. Just before the event drew to a close, they energized the crowd by announcing the total money that had been raised ($500,000 of the total was given by a generous couple who had attended Passion 2012).
The grand total was (drum roll please) $3,066,670.
That means the conference attendees gave $2,566,670.
Way to go young people!!!
Giglio then asked how many would commit to coming back next year, and he got a huge response. He explained that if they took the curtain down and opened up the entire arena, 71,000 people would be able to attend Passion 2013; however, he said in order for that to happen they would have to commit soon to coming next year.
I believe it was Shelley Giglio who made this profound remark:
“Don’t get stuck in the past when God’s leading you into the future.”
I look forward to following the Passion Movement in years to come and seeing what God does through Louie and Shelley Giglio and their team.
I leave you with a You Tube video that should serve as an allegory of our Christian faith. Jesus Christ did heal the paralyzed man. It is our mission to introduce others to this magnificent Savior who causes us to leap for joy. Be prepared for a few tears.
Lydia's Corner: Ecclesiastes 10:1-12:14 2 Corinthians 8:1-15 Psalm 49:1-20 Proverbs 22:20-21
Fascinating post. Was not even aware that Louis Giglio existed to say nothing of the PASSION movement.
Eagle
if my son, Will, had been a girl, he was to be named Margaret after the Iron Lady. Can you imagine Tim Challies restricting her from reading Scriptures in the pulpit? I swear these guys are going nuts.
Have to weigh in on this one as it triggered some memories. A few years ago, someone highly recommended one of Louie Giglio’s two books. My friend’s dentist was so impressed he had purchased the book in volume to pass out to his patients. I read a borrowed copy. I don’t remember much about the book except that I was puzzled by the rave recommendations. In the pasts few years I have noticed Louie Giglio’s name as one of the composers on some contemporary worship songs: “I Will Rise,” “Amazing Grace (My Chains are Gone)” and “Holy is the Lord.” There may others that I am not aware of. He is always paired as a composer with Chris Tomlin and often others are listed also. I don’t know if he does the words, music or both. Anyway, I just read a wikipedia article that says that he and his wife, Shelley, head up sixsteprecords, a partnership with Sparrow Records. sixsteprecords is described as home to Chris Tomlin, David Crowder Band, Charlie Hall, Matt Redman, and others. They also cite a Christianity Today article with this description: “Learn how a tiny homespun record label focused solely on worship became one of the most successful in the music business today, fueled by music from the likes of Chris Tomlin and David Crowder.” So evidently in addition to the Passion Conferences and founding a Passion Church in the Atlanta area, Louie Giglio is quite involved in contemporary Christian music.
Eagle
Beth Moore is a decent speaker. We did a story on her called The Enigma of Beth Moore. We did a review of a lengthy Christianity Today article which presented a complex view of her. Like anyone, she has a few strange things in her background. What startled us was the vitriol which came to us, mostly in the form of emails. Over a year later, we still get them. You see, we are not allowed to mention anything negative about icons, In fact, I think that is the problem with the church today. Our leaders are fallen, just as much as we are. Yet, we tend to place them on a pedestal. Then, when they fall, people are “shocked.”
I am a realist. If my own life is any indication, we all sin and make selfish choices on a regular basis. We need to acknowledge this and be realistic about our pastors and leaders. Instead, we like to pretend that our leaders are “just perfect” except for some little sin like overeating or impatience. The real story is far darker than that. But the solution is wonderful. Jesus forgives our sins and we live in grace. As Luther said “go and sin boldly” (ps-for any history wonks, I did provide proof that Luther actually said this in a letter awhile back). That means, let’s live authentically instead of living with a smiley face, well dressed, nice houses, etc and inside-struglling.
Eagle
Oh Good Night!! I need another cup of coffee to deal with this one. Our spiritual life is in a shambles so let’s turn to something easier to obtain…
“Seeing and savoring the supremacy of Jesus Christ frees you from the slavery of sin for the sacrifices of love. Here’s a second way to say it. Being satisfied with all that God is for you in Jesus frees you from the bondage of sin for the suffering of love.”
Then he shared a third way of saying it: “Faith in Jesus Christ frees you from the slavery of sin for the sacrifices of love.”
I have been following Piper for a long long time. If you notice in these words….and most all his teaching, it is really a form of “navel gazing” or contemplative mysticism. Where is obedience to Christ for those who have been “Born Again”? If you listen to him long enough, that message is missing. It is part of his “Christian Hedonism” message. This is where he molds Justificiation and Sanctification as one thing. I think there is a reason for this. Savoring Christ is better for him than telling people to obey and follow Christ. If they obey and follow Christ and not just navel gaze about it, Then they might not want to follow Piper listening to his every word and wives may follow Christ instead of their husbands. That is the problem he has with “freedom”.
I am sure having a woman preach bothers him a lot but the fee for speaking is pretty good so he keeps doing it. Seems his position on women teaching men is more flexible than we thought. How confusing for his followers.
And you know what? Piper followers will tell you he “means” the opposite of what he says.
Abby,
I wasn’t going to focus on sixsteprecords, but now that you’ve brought it up, I have a few things to add. According to Passion City Church’s website, Chris Tomlin is the worship leader. At the conference Giglio brought the David Crowder Band up on stage and said that God was sending them out to do mighty things (or something along those lines).
I hadn’t read the CT article you mentioned, but let’s think about this. The individuals listed were the musicians at Passion 2012. They are performing before an audience of 45,000. Next year it will probably be over 70,000. I wonder what kind of impact that will have on record sales? Talk about a captive audience… Is this making merchandise of God? Only time will tell.
Deb
Great post. I’m learning.
Dee,
So am I…
A text sent from Passion 2012 during Piper’s talk.
“I flat out do not like John piper like my blood is boiling”
followed by
“… and he’s full of c*** like oh my God he’s as bad as an atheist”
Apparently not everyone who attended is a fan of Piper or TULIP.
Great article — thanks. My living room was filled with young adults watching the internet streaming, but I didn’t know what it was all about until reading the article.
I have been so gut-level opposed to celebrity pastors, celebrity Christians — and sometimes aghast at the behavior of those celebrities who claim to be Christians. I am sure the opportunities to behave like hotshots abound for Christian speakers and writers who rise to some level of prominence. Since I cannot decree that there will be no more celebrity pastors, I hope that those who rise to celebrity-hood can remain untainted by the hype and personality-cult possibilities.
Think of secular celebrities — many behave in atrocious ways. But every now and then there’s one that remains faithfully married, treats people decently, and tries to deal sensibly with the hype. (Uh, can’t think of one now, but help me out here…Bob Hope maybe?) Anyway, I hope those who rise to celebrity-level within Christianity (as well as those who remain out of the spotlight) can keep their eyes on the author and finisher of our faith, looking only unto Him as they run their race down the path He chose for them.
Someone
I wish I knew to what he/she was responding. Said person seems very upset. Any idea? I do know he seemed a little solemn and made some comment along the lines of “seems to be a lot of freedom around here.”
The “as bad as an atheist” comment is interesting. There are those that say that the new atheists are as dogmatic fundamentalists in their pronouncements as some of the dogmatic Calvinistas and Christian fundamentalists.
It is really too bad. A long time ago, I really enjoyed some of Piper’s stuff even if I didn’t agree with all of his premises. It seems he has gone down the road of emphasizing some areas that leave room for legitimate and, sometimes, vociferous disagreement.
Hi Beth
Patrick Swayze was married to his wife for 34 years, I think. I heard his widow on Fox news discussing their marriage this morning. She said there is one rule for long term marriages. Don’t get divorced!
The texts were related to Piper talking about people are pre-selected to be saved or not. Especially the not.
Someone
Ah, the crux of the conflict. Sometimes I think that Piper says this stuff for shock value. There are ten thousand ways he could show empathy for those listening who don’t buy it or struggle with it. For someone with a stiff backbone, like myself, i can blow his stuff off. But. there are many, many sensitive Christians who cannot do so. There are many who are not as well versed in theology and exegesis to argue with him. he does have all the right answers, doesn’t he?
Unfortunately, some of these folks believe he is defining essential Christianity. And, they leave the faith, preferring agnosticism to a God that would preselect and predesign souls for hell. Not only that, we should rejoice that God does so because He is sovereign, right? The lack of empathy on the part of the Calvinista crowd for those listening to this message is both breathtaking and arrogant. No wonder there were suicides during Jonathan Edwards crusades.
Nickname,
I just heard about the Passion Movement this week, so I’m trying to catch up. I don’t think our generation knows much about it.
I think I am beginning to see the big picture and may write about it soon.
Dee, I don’t believe people “leave the faith” because of the teachings of John Piper or anybody else for that matter. They “leave the faith” because they choose to for their own complex reasons. The BLAME John Piper but he’s really not the problem. Their sin nature is the problem.
As I mentioned before, when you stand before God at that judgment day He will not accept your excuse, “It’s because of John Piper.”
This is the article John Piper wrote 2 hours after the bridge collapse in Minnesota.
Very thoughtful – http://tinyurl.com/7hc66y7
Seneca
I totally disagree with you. I believe that abuse can cause people to run away from the faith. And there will be some leaders, and some pew sitters who will stand before God one day and need to answer for their actions in this area.
hmmm… sounds very positive. Amazing, the $ they were able to collect for the very worthy causes.
I’m wondering if they commented on whether or not the entire amount would go to the causes. Perhaps the assumptions was “of course it’s all going!”.
Can’t say i’m not skeptical on what happens after the charitable giving.
And, they leave the faith, preferring agnosticism to a God that would preselect and predesign souls for hell. Not only that, we should rejoice that God does so because He is sovereign, right? — Dee
Eh, Kismet? Al’lah’u Akbar.
Seneca how bout that Christmas card I sent you?
And – as stated in another post (or comments) some time back, there were people who committed suicide after hearing Jonathan Edwards preach “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God” and similar sermons.
I think he was responsible, in that what he said drove people to despair – and no wonder.
As for Piper’s pronouncements on the MN disaster, I cannot believe his presumption and egocentricity. There’s certainly little-no sympathy for anyone who was grieving the deaths of loved ones, and to say what he did *to a child* is (imo) appalling.
As for “conference”-type events: why are we so hooked on them? I don’t see the point of these big confabs. (Which seemed to start gaining traction in the early 70s, during the heyday of the charismatic movement – which had its stars, though they didn’t get nearly as much media attention as those who are “star preachers” today.)
Seneca, you’re not the only skeptic/cynic in the bunch!
I’ve often wondered what “big thing God was doing” during the few conferences I’ve attended (in the 70s and one in the early 90s). For all the hype, these things are more or less glorified sleepovers with a few speakers who tend to get very hyper at the thought of God “doing things.”
Here’s the clincher: I’m not sure I’ve very heard follow-up accounts of what God actually did during these events. But the speakers sure did sell tons of books and tapes!
numo said:
“I’m not sure I’ve very heard follow-up accounts of what God actually did during these events.”
numo,
I was talking with Dee earlier this afternoon and she said something very similar. Does anyone follow up with those who attended to see if they are growing in their faith?
If somebody committed suicide after hearing Jonathan Edward’s sermon they will still have to face God in judgment without excuse. Jonathan Edwards did not make anybody commit suicide.
HUG
You are a nut!
Stangela
Now that’s one card I would love to see!
I certainly believe there will be Christian leaders who will have to answer to God for their actions (technically, of course, they won’t – if you’re a child of God your crown may contain more or less jewels but you will not be punished for your sins – the sacrifice of the Lamb of God took care of our sins) but Jane Doe STILL stands before God without excuse.
But let me say this: I do believe some people have, through no fault of their own, experienced horrendous trials and tribulations and I believe, with all my heart, God makes it up to them – somehow, someway, somewhere. We know the martyrs in this earth appear to be especially close to the throne. WE simply cannot possibly understand God’s perfect love for His children. He is gracious beyond measure. I believe that with all my heart. I am not cynical about God.
Numo
I would like to see long term stats on these events in terms of faith, etc. I wonder if some are being kept and if they would release them.
Anon1 –
Piper’s focus in all three phrases is sin instead of who we are in Christ! Isn’t he preaching mainly to believers at these conferences? I would think that his teaching would be headed in a different direction.
Bridget
Piper’s “trajectory” is focused always on the believer’s utter sinfulness and God’s sovereignty. That is why he actually believes that God cause the bridge to collapse so that he, Piper, would repent. Remember CJ Mahaney’s little game of “I am worst sinner in the world.” Functionally, he is infallible and acts it. That is why his words ring hollow.
Dee –
I’m all too with the Mahaney phrase and the puppeting of what he says by many others! As you say, though, he doesn’t believe it else he would have resigned his position by now and asked foregiveness for the heartache and abuse under his watch. BTW did you get the email I sent early this week regarding SGM/Mahaney?
Anon1 11:00 wrote:
“Seems his position on women teaching men is more flexible than we thought. How confusing for his followers.”
I am sure you all have seen this since it is over a year old…but here’s Piper explaining how he can sit under a woman’s (Beth Moore) teaching. Forgive me if this is old news for all. Oh and btw-he thought the question posed to him “was gonna be about sex!”
Disturbing first 33 seconds…Beth can teach you -she just can’t be your shepherd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyT2fDrb0vo
Diane
There is logic burp going on in these convoluted explanations.
Now they are separating teaching and “authority” over others to allow women to teach? Well if you have to hold on to that “authority” view instead of “serving” with the gifts God has given you . . . and if you want to preach at the same conference . . . I guess you have to make allowances and come up with something. It is getting a bit confusing.
logic burp…:-)
Let’s see—what is flying into my head at the moment…I will tell them that…and they will buy it.
Word of warning FWIW about Beth Moore. Did 5-6 of her studies 4 years ago in my old women’s group. She was never my preference because I find that she talks too fast and is distracting.
I started reading reviews of her bible studies-perhaps you have too. There are many online that you can find if you want. Not someone I would sit under as a bible study teacher…but being instructed to be Bereans, by all means we should investigate and compare what she is teaching to the word of God.
Diane
Go to our post on The Enigma of Beth Moore. I think you will see that we concur with you. In fact, I think the Berean comment was made by one of our perceptive readers. Hmm, that makes you one as well. 🙂
Bridget
I am not smart enough to figure this all out. Or, could it be that all of us are smart enough to know something is amiss?
Stangela, thanks for the Christmas card indeed.
Re Pastors and preachers who preach and teach contrary to the teachings of Jesus and claim to be “leaders”. First, Paul said that those who teach or preach are held to a higher standard than those who follow them. Second, claiming to be a leader is contrary to the teachings of Jesus, so NO FOLLOWER OF JESUS CAN CLAIM TO BE A LEADER OR TO HAVE AUTHORITY. ERGO: no one claiming to have pastoral authority is a follower of Jesus.
And Piper’s teachings have resulted in Christian kids so questioning their faith, because they cannot accept that God would be as cruel as Piper teaches, that they leave the faith. His teaching is the root cause and it is heretical, period.
The bridge thing is just one example of Piper teaching that God causes evil.
Calvinistas focus on sovereignty and ignore God’s love for us. And it is a misunderstanding of sovereignty, as I have shown in previous comments on this blog.
Calvinistas have everything figured out. Calvinism has difficulty with paradoxes. Part of the attraction to the young college student is this theology seems to be able to sort out all of their questions. I think this is the Calvinist error because who can know the mind of God? Sometimes we come across difficult passages in scripture and we just can’t figure out why God did it. Maybe it isn’t for us to KNOW.
I think that is what is so refreshing about confessional Lutheranism. They have a proper distinction between the Law and the Gospel. Both need to be proclaimed. The law has to be proclaimed in order for us to see our sin. It shouldn’t become “how to tips” for better living, it should actually bring us to our knees, utter despair in ourselves for salvation. John Piper does this but often times the Gospel gets muddled as more law. So, if you don’t think you are sinful, listen to JP. The gospel tells us that Christ is our substitute and forgives us our sins for free and forever. If you are despairing over sin, I probably would search out a non Calvinista to preach the gospel to you. Also, these two aspects; law and gospel should be heard throughout a Christian’s life. I think that the Calvinistas spend so much time on how evil they are, we are etc. that they seem to miss the comfortable words that God provided a way to save us from his own wrath! And that death and resurrection is a beautiful thing! Martin Luther once said “the whole gospel is outside of us!” It isn’t just that Christ resides in us rather, the gospel event actually happened in time, in space two thousand years ago outside of Jerusalem. Those events from Good Friday to that Sunday provide salvation. It is finished, completed in Jesus. Stop navel gazing and look outside of yourself. For heavens sake, find a reformed church, lutheran, SBC, any faith church to the gospel but stay away from the celebrity preacher personalities! Calvinista or not!
Also, IMO most Calvinistas yell a lot and seem in general really angry. Maybe not in private but at conferences, talks, etc. I don’t know what they are angry about. If they are angry because people aren’t coming to Christ well… it was preordained from the beginning they should be in hell so aren’t we supposed to rejoice in that? Ok, I am being snotty.
Thanks for the commentary on Calvinism and Calvinistas. It is something that concerns me. I can see there is a problem with it because you will know them by their fruit. But I’m still figuring out what the core problems are with it, the root of the issue, if you will.
Mara –
Their doctrine and belief system has become an idol. Many only study and read what is in alignment with their doctrine. This process seems to breed pride. Studying itself can become an odol for many. I’ve been in a small church related to one of the Calvinista’s for some time. I can’t remember the last time I heard a sermon or teaching about Jesus (out of the gospels). The teachings are not tied to the teachings of Christ. I’m not saying ALL are like this. This has been my experience.
Oh – too much inward focus as Robin stated. We don’t have to have it all together before God will/can use us to be a blessing to others. Jesus came to give us life (blessing) not so we could sit around and worry about our sin some more! HE HAS COVERED THAT!
Arce @9:47pm.
🙂 🙂 🙂
Thanks Bridget2,
Do you and Robin have links on good critiques of Calvinism. Not blazing bitter tirades but rather, “Okay, here is how it is. This is was Calvinism is. Here is what is good, here is what is bad,” and perhaps even, “This is why it produces this kind of fruit.”
Or something along those lines, Calvinism for dummies, or whatever?
Morning all!
Just wanted to stop by and say hello! (from Chattanooga).
Chao!
Mara,
The problem with wanting to know about Calvinism is that what we are seeing promoted as Calvinism today is different. And not only tht but there are many strains of it so impossible to say: this is it. You have Reformed, NCT, Neo Calvinism, etc. Now you have NC’s claiming you are Calvinist if you believe in any 3 of the 5 tulip. Piper would have been burned at the stake by Calvin for Christian Hedonism.
Here are a few things that should be a red flag:
A focus on ONE of God’s attributes to the exclusion of others. Mainly His Sovereignty. (Where is Justice, Mercy, etc)
“Gospel” everything as in Gospel marriage, kids, quit smoking, etc
Preach the Gospel to yourself every day (as if you never go into sanctification but have to stay at the Cross. When do you “live out” what happened AFTER the cross, is my question?)
A Melding of sanctification and justification to make them the same. When they are different but knowing you cannot have one without the other. (Justification one time act of salvation and is mongerisic. Sanctification goes on until your last day and is synergistic. NC says Sanc is mongeristic. You have no input with it)
No focus on obedience to God but big focus on obedience to pastor/elder/husband
Believers remain totally depraved
Jesus obeys for us. (No synergistic sanctification….because YOU can do nothing)
There is more but the problem is very subtle and sounds good to ears until really analyzed. I once heard both Dever and Chandler say they preached to totally depraved congregations….in their church!
I was appalled at that attitude. But it is all over the NC crowd and how they view us.
Why would those who follow Christ and have the indwelling Holy Spirit remain totally depraved? It is a lie. If they are still totally depraved, they are not saved.
BR – long time no see (or hear)! So glad you dropped in – hope you’ll be coming around more often.
cheers,
n.
Dee & Deb – I really want to see those stat lists, too. 😉 (About “what God is doing.”)
“Thanks for the commentary on Calvinism and Calvinistas. It is something that concerns me. I can see there is a problem with it because you will know them by their fruit. But I’m still figuring out what the core problems are with it, the root of the issue, if you will”
Mara, I wonder, too. But I also know many free will celebs who are big into the authority thing like Paige Patterson, Ergun Caner, etc. If you look at the Danvers statement signatories it is both Calvin and Free Will folks. I also know REformed folks who are mutualists like Wade Burleson and John Zens.
I think the root problem is the rise of the Nicolatians in the Body of Christ which is mentioned in Rev twice. The conqueror of the people is what it means. I think we are seeing many whose goal is really to get a lot of followers and the best way to do that is to make it look like obedience to God to follow them.
I met Louie Giglio at the home of a Christian in 1985 who is quite well known, loved by many and hated by a few, so his identity will not be named. He was and is a Louie supporter.
I thought Louie seemed like a nice guy, a young student minister.
Then, years later, another friend told me about all the good stuff Louie was doing at Baylor. Sounded good to me.
Then, a few years later, I heard about the Passion conferences. A friend who is a youth pastor came to our town to attend a Passion conference.
I have not been to or watched a Passion conference or read any of Louie’s books or seen him preach.
But I hear good things about his ministry. Your blog report seems to confirm this.
Louie apparently has confidence in the people he brings to speak at his conferences – Chan, Piper, Moore. There are a lot of available speakers out there. These are the ones that Louie chose. And they apparently like him, too.
They may have differences on some issues, but they have worked through those and still respect one another.
I am not a big conference guy, and I am not a big fan of conferences bragging about how much they accomplish.
These people are fools, in my opinion, to hand over $100,000 to the City of Atlanta. That City already overtaxes its citizens and does not have a good reputation for city government.
I don’t understand the socks thing either, but hey, it’s a positive thing.
There are a lot of things going on out in the youth culture today. This seems to be a positive one. They believe and are preaching the Gospel. They are not apostate. They have not abandoned the Gospel for the so-called “Social Gospel.” They have a high view of scripture. Scripture is God breathed and inerrant – not a combination of some stuff from God and a lot of bad stuff from man type approach.
So, why not give it a thumbs up?
I am sure that there are things to pick at (see my remarks, for example), but we shouldn’t focus on the negative?
“Warning to Patriarchs”… lol! Hello? This BLOG is written by women too, they shouldn’t be reading that far in the first place!
Numo,
Thanks, plan on it as soon as a new topic pops up that I can contribute to.
For those who would consider reading a book by a Calvinist scholar that is paradox-embracing, love-embracing, non-Arminian-hating, non-justification-sanctification-confusing, non-“Gospel”-misusing, and non-sin-mischaracterizing, I’d like to recommend “For Calvinism,” by Michael Horton.
Thanks, Anon1
Guess it is just a learning process.
Thanks, also, Jeff.
My very first encounter with Calvinism was very bad.
My psychotic brother in law discovered Calvinism and thought it was the perfect vehicle to declare himself, his wife, and his son saved, predestined, and declare the rest of us as unregenerate. So he really made Calvinism look bad. But I have to remember, he made EVERYTHING look bad so I can’t just it by my crazy brotherinlaw.
Jeff
Thanks for the recommendation.,
Bounded
Have you moved South?
Bounded,
You have a fan base, myself included. Please return, we’ll have more fun than a can-o’-crawlers & crappie fishin!
“Many fundagelicals go through trends and movements.” Yes they do, and why? I believe it is because their pastors find it easier to motivate them to respond to some “trend” or to use the holy word, “movement,” than it is to simply teach them God’s Word. This is why “christian” movements will always exist; pastors need them to help fund their projects and keep their people in line.
As for Giglio I don’t know alot but the little I know is somewhat discouraging.
Numo,
I was a doorholder at the conference; my first time in attendence. I just wanted you to know that many people attending in the past came back and brought first timers with them. As far as the point of events like this?; the power of Christians in numbers is an awesome force. This wasn’t just a bunch of kids all jacked up on Jesus. These people are helping to fight the wrongs of this planet. 3.5 million dollars was raised to fight world slavery, which now includes over 27 million people on this planet. Please go (Wednesday or Thursday), to the Passion City Church website and view last Sundays gathering. It is a wonderful synopsis of the entire event, including what the point was and just a few stories of God’s amazing touch on us. I had more than my share of “aha” moments as well. I am 57 years old and consider myself an enthusiastic Christian; not over the top but active in doing. Did you know that Atlanta is one of the largest hubs for slave trade in the United States? The money given in only money; there are other plans for lobbying, laws and orginizations that will fight this act of man against man. I do hope that my information is not precevied as arogent or self rightious. I just want the truth to ring out. The bestist way to find out is to come to one! (hint, hint) 🙂
Eagle up @12:25am –
You are right about many Christians getting bored and moving on to the next best thing! It doesn’t look much different than the way unbelievers chase after stuff. We (Christians) can all do this too. It can be very much like the techi looking for the next techno fix, the music junkie looking for the next great concert, the addict their drug of choice, the christian and his next awesome conference. None of these things are bad, in and of themselves, it’s how people use them that becomes the problem. We are ultimately looking in the wrong place for fulfillment and peace. Someone above even mentioned pastors who aren’t teaching what needs to be taught as a reason for their flock looking elsewhere (and maybe they should in some cases) but if we christians are looking to other “anythings” for our main source of life – we’re looking in the wrong place and maybe depending on “other stuff” instead of on the One who gives living water.
I’m skeptical and still not convinced. Many fundagelicals go through trends and movements. In my time when I was in the system I saw the Left Behind craze, Prayer of Jabez craze, Purpose Driven life craze, the neo-refromed craze, etc.. — Eagle
So you’re waiting to see whether this movement actually demonstrates some staying power?
Also, IMO most Calvinistas yell a lot and seem in general really angry. Maybe not in private but at conferences, talks, etc. — Robin
“And stop screaming. Nobody likes a religion with people screaming.”
— Internet Monk, several years ago
Marshall,
Have you heard or read any statement concerning how much of the $ raised at this Passion conference will go to the causes?
Do they keep a percentage for admin, other costs?
Wouldn’t it be better to have these kids actually out there helping and working with people in need than giving impressive amounts of money?
As for numbers, I don’t think they mean much, either.
Marshall,
I’m surprised they let you participate since you’re considerably older than the age limit of the participants.
Thanks for chiming in. 🙂
Re: the Beth Moore enigma post that was mentioned… (Apparently the comments are closed on it.)
Although I understand the argument for people in public ministry needing to be a bit more open, I also understand the desire to be very cautious when dealing with media, interviews, etc.
If you’ve ever been technically quoted correctly but in a way that misrepresents your actual meaning (as I have), then you understand why someone might want to have tight control over the process. I remember a woman blogger who agreed to have a television show come into her home and tape her going about her homemaking and then interview her and her husband. It really didn’t come off very well. My reaction was – What did you expect? The producers came in with an agenda that was not Christ-centered and they were looking for certain angles to prove their point. Why anyone would let the media shape their public persona is beyond me.
So while I understand the complaints to a degree, I would probably have the same attitude as Beth. Tight control over what is asked and what is going to be printed. Not because I fear being exposed as a fraud, but because it is too easy to have what you say twisted in a way that is not accurate.
My two cents. Your mileage may vary.
Sallie said: “So while I understand the complaints to a degree, I would probably have the same attitude as Beth. Tight control over what is asked and what is going to be printed. Not because I fear being exposed as a fraud, but because it is too easy to have what you say twisted in a way that is not accurate.”
Blogs and comments lend themselves to EXACTLY that kind of misrepresentation.
I believe that as a Christian blogger, I should make every attempt to not mis-represent others or imply something that probably is not true. Show grace, show mercy.
Seneca
“I should make every attempt to not mis-represent others or imply something that probably is not true. Show grace, show mercy.”
Wow-Seneca I think a few people would be blessed if you did exactly that.
sallie, I understand control over what is asked and said in media interivews when it comes to the celebrity christians. But why are they doing the same thing with their fellow believer audiences?
Tell you what Dee, I’ll do it if you’ll do it. sen
As an aside, it always bothers me when Christian organizations charge for digital materials which cost them essentially nothing to distribute. I simply have trouble believing that an organization really cares primarily about spreading its message when it limits free, easy distribution of its materials.
Dee have you been to Imonk and seen that Ed Young is planning on laying in bed with his wife on a roof???!!!!!
Yeah. It’s Grinning Ed’s follow-up to his Seven Day Sex Challenge from a couple years ago, done as a publicity stunt for HIS new book.
Apparently he’s trying to out-best-seller Driscoll on pretty much the same subject.
Another reason to hole up in Ponyville for the duration…
Hmmm. Trying to cash in on some Beatles nostalgia.
Yoko Ono and John AND the Beatles concert on the roof.
I give them an A for publicity and propaganda churning.
An F- for having absolutely nothing to do with the message of the gospel, eternity, and spirituality.
Robin
Not only have I read Internet Monk, I tweeted about it today and will write about it on Wednesday. I still cannot believe I attended his church for a couple of years and our kids played together. I need to repent. I have been hearing from people in Texas. Everyone believes that Ed is totally losing it. Only he could have produced a spectacle to overshadow Mark Driscoll’s book.
When we started this blog, Deb expressed concern that we wouldn’t have enough to write about. These days, we are not sure if we can write about everything we hear.
Go over to FBC-Tom Rich’s site for his take .He did a great job. http://fbcjaxwatchdog.blogspot.com/
HUG
I think old Ed needs some smiting.
Garland, come on. Nothing is ‘free’. Servers and bandwidth to supply the media, pro camera, sound and lighting crews aren’t cheap. Digital replication machines are expensive.
I sat and labelled some 2000 cd’s myself at the conference, which isn’t even 10% of what was created with all the speakers, etc. Not everyone at the conference is a volunteer either. Do you think that a city just donates the facilities with all the power, staffing, etc.? My point is that I know cd’s selling for $5 and $10 just about covers the cost of creating them. Streaming media cost to create it and stream it for that matter. Nothing is free but these prices are break even. And as far as brain washing, I have seen things that are beyond explanation within and outside of these events. I can only hope that some of you skeptics haven’t completely closed to the possibility.
Just like the old days huh. Sometimes its really tough to be a preacher, its either he just follow what God wanted him to say as long as it’s the truth or try to bend some for the likings of the people who listens. Just imagine the time Christ preached the word of God, all He said was the truth and did he even care if the truth hurts? Then again our faith is our responsibility for if not are we to blame God also for not putting that faith in us as we blame those who preached for Him. I do not see a gun pointed at our heads to attend, to follow, to patronize, to buy, to donate…yet we blamed them or judged them for not doing our part.
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Deb,
I was a doorholder. That is not a participant in the actual event but only support staff. I was however, placed in a spot to work where I saw most all of the events.
Passion City Church is centered on with the youth and young married couples with kids.
I am 57 in age only, am a musician, (drummer, vocalist, songwriter) and am very physically active. What a blessing it is, believe me.
elastigirl: My understanding at this point is that there were two seperate money sources; the event price to participate and Do Something Now donations. The costs of renting the venues and all that is involved is staggering. The convention business in any city is just that; a business. NO freebee’s or who ya knows.
The intial money target for the donations was one million dollars. This was earmarked for 6 “freedom” causes, if there was more, then there were the next 6 causes already waiting. The total raised by donation was 3.5 million meaning there is monies now standing by for more carefully chosen causes. I can only say, believe me when I say there is no guessing or just picking anything when it comes to the business around PCC. People being moved to do more, yes. People “feeling” they should go out on a limb for this church, yes. Story after story of faith in action with great reward for all involved. I do not expect all to believe without seeing. I can be skeptical at times for sure, but I tell you, God is at work here. Truly I see it and believe it. Example; Haiti Rising project; raising over $600,000 to supply Haitians with rubble remove equiptment and operators so they can begin the rebuilding process.
http://dosomethingnow.com/causes/haiti-rising/ (hope its ok to post links) This is not lip service, (no pun intended) it is passion in action.
Hi, Marshall. Thanks for the reply. I tend to think that, yes, God is at work in the things you describe.
I just know that even in good organizations that accomplish much good, things aren’t always transparent when it comes to money. When a (very) large sum of money presents itself, it’s all too easy to rethink what one will do with even a small portion of it. Many things can be rationalized as being ok.
Perhaps “Passion” makes itself accountable to a charity fundraising watchdog of some sort (can’t think what you call these). That would be encouraging.
If they do not, seems to me the only reasonable perspective to take is one of skepticism.
My wife went to a Passion event and said it was quite an amazing experience. As someone said earlier, Christians in large quantities is a powerful experience. As it should be with the presence and power of the Holy Spirit.
The movement seems to be demonstrating the ‘proper ration’ of faith and deeds as well.
@elastigirl
I understand the reason behind the skepticism. Here is my question in response to it. Why spend time doubting? Why not rejoice and praise a group of Christians for being Christ-like? If God is involved their will be fruit and the conference demonstrated fruit in donations to the civic government, goods for homeless, and apparent spiritual regeneration as more and more people come. Obviously, large organizations and money can breed sin (God forbid), but they can also accomplish great things (God working). I don’t understand why we would worry when there is no smoke indicating fire.
shrekpix,
Thanks for your comment. I’m grateful that your wife had an amazing experience. Whenever that many people get together, it’s a powerful experience.
I do understand why some wonder about financial accountability at large events like Passion 2012. There’s an awful lot of cash involved from conference fees, CD sales, book sales, contributions to the causes, etc.
shrekpdx,
Thanks for the comment. I agree with what you’re saying. Yes, when people en masse come together and are open to God and inviting to God and focus on God, powerful things can happen. As is fitting (for the God of the universe).
I think it’s great that a group of people are wanting and trying to be like Jesus Christ. When God is involved, there will be good fruit (as you say).
However, I’ve observed too many improprieties and poor/sloppy administration amongst christians where money is concerned. Money that people sacrificially gave in good faith is not administrated in good faith (the $ doesn’t get to the causes as promised due to portions being diverted or due to mismanagement).
It’s almost as if in some christian circles, the value of money has gotten blurry. Perhaps it’s the notion that “it’s all God’s money, anyway”. If some of it slips away, oh well, He’ll just bring in more. And He’ll just give more back to those who gave. (??)
The bar is way too low for how christian churches and organizations handle money. This is not an honorable thing. Standards need to rise. The government seems to stay out of the fray for a variety of reasons. Perhaps lay people can insist on higher standards.
As I see it, the fact that people gave amounts of money sacrifically (& often will go without what they need because of it) is overlooked — it was dear and precious to the person who gave, but it is often not considered precious (thus compelling excellent stewardship) to the organization receiving it. What the money represents (the sacrifice of the giver) fades from the picture.
At the very least, if people are going to give money to an organization in response to the claims the organization is making as to what great things they’re going to do with it, I expect the organization to keep their word 100%. Otherwise I personally feel lied to and taken advantage of.
A 3rd neutral party keeps the organization accountable before the public and demonstrates to all that they they are responsible and have integrity in how they operate. I would think such an organization would want to demonstrate this.
shrekpdx,
Thanks for the comment. I agree with what you’re saying. Yes, when people en masse come together and are open to God and inviting to God and focus on God, powerful things can happen. As is fitting (for the God of the universe).
I think it’s great that a group of people are wanting and trying to be like Jesus Christ. When God is involved, there will be good fruit (as you say).
However, I’ve observed too many improprieties and poor/sloppy administration amongst christians where money is concerned. Money that people sacrificially gave in good faith is not administrated in good faith (the $ doesn’t get to the causes as promised due to portions being diverted or due to mismanagement).
It’s almost as if in some christian circles, the value of money has gotten blurry. Perhaps it’s the notion that “it’s all God’s money, anyway”. If some of it slips away, oh well, He’ll just bring in more. And He’ll just give more back to those who gave. (??)
The bar is way too low for how christian churches and organizations handle money. This is not an honorable thing. Standards need to rise. The government seems to stay out of the fray for a variety of reasons. Perhaps lay people can insist on higher standards.
As I see it, the fact that people gave amounts of money sacrifically (& often will go without what they need because of it) is overlooked — it was dear and precious to the person who gave, but it is often not considered precious (thus compelling excellent stewardship) to the organization receiving it. What the money represents (the sacrifice of the giver) fades from the picture.
At the very least, if people are going to give money to an organization in response to the claims the organization is making as to what great things they’re going to do with it, I expect the organization to keep their word 100%. Otherwise I personally feel lied to and taken advantage of.
A 3rd neutral party keeps the organization accountable before the public and demonstrates to all that they they are responsible and have integrity in how they operate. I would think such an organization would want to demonstrate this.
All,
I would hope that those of us that are skeptical based on public news events and sensationalism in journalism regarding other conferences, will continue to have an open mind to the possiblity that a group like Passion 2012 is being lead step by step by God; following the stated course and perservering His integrity. We, as Christians, have the choice at every moment to make selfish, misguided or otherwise, “bad” decisions. That is the beauty of it; freedom of choice. I find though, that from continues prayer for guidance, the most amazing outcomes arise.
I know that some of these events don’t break even with regard to expenses. Still, the monies earmarked for the causes can be tracked all along the way.
It only takes one Christian that leaves a negitive impression to leave that mark on Christians in general. I hope that all involved will continue to “walk the walk” allowing a good report from the scrutiny of the skeptics. Ultimatly, I trust God; I have great results from this mindset. I trust my fellow man after that, knowing that my God cannot be misguided. All things together for good; this is not naivety but a true belief.
Marshall
I am involved with another group in which I will be doing a write up on how Christians should be involved in combatting sex slavery. I intend to use Passion as a positive example in this endeavor. I am pleased that Passion chose this as a cause to support.
As for large conferences, we hope that the leaders will carefully track both the money and the lives of those who attended. We learn from long term followup. For example, my daughter who is 23 is being followed by St Jude’s Hospital which is trying to understand the issues of long term survival of what was thought to be a fatal disease (she has a brain tumor as a small child). They are hoping to see how medicine and ancillary services can better address issues that occur after the acute event is over. Perhpas you know of some followup that is being done. If so, i would be most interested in the results.
You said, “It only takes one Christian that leaves a negitive impression to leave that mark on Christians in general.” We intend to continue to expose Christian leaders who are negatively impacting the faith. All too frequently, leaders tell us to not spread gossip. Gossip is defined by that which is negative. When this sort of “gossip” is not spread, sin continues within the faith.
One must not be naive to think that, if we just keep our moths shut, no one will know. They do. Have you read the secular press, the atheists and agnostics, etc? They are watching and seeing. Every Christian could keep their mouths shut and still the sin would be evident. Jesus publicly condemned the sins of the Pharisees. Paul was pretty public about calling out sins.
We need to do the same.
I have found that those outside the faith are far more impressed with honesty than in smiley faces that hide the pain. We need to be bold in our sin, pointing to how a gracious God will forgive us if we turn to Him. Oh, and we continue to sin after we come to faith. We know and the world knows it. Pretense only adds hypocrisy to the list of our sins.
Deb and I put ourselves on the line every day, opening ourselves up to global critique. We can take it and so can the objects of our critique. We are two sinners who are showing other sinners the full truth-not the fake, smile, all is well in our churches truth.
Could you help me with one part of your comment. You said I” hope that all involved will continue to “walk the walk” allowing a good report from the scrutiny of the skeptics.” Could you please tell me what that means? One could interpret this to mean that we should only say good things because skeptics will pounce on the bad. If that is the case, I have news for you. The skeptics already know our foibles and shake their heads when we attempt to ignore them and cover it up. I have spent years on skeptic sites and have come to the conclusion we must be more open. But, perhaps you didn’t mean that.
Hi, Marshall.
Nice to see your comment.
I do “have an open mind to the possiblity that a group like Passion 2012 is being lead step by step by God; following the stated course and perservering His integrity.”
But I know that no person or organization is perfect and errors of judgement will be made all the while they are making it a priority to “being led step by step by God…” Even while seeking to be led step by step by God, etc., it’s more than possible to at the same time justify a number of things where money is concerned that would deviate from the stated intentions of how funds will be dispersed.
*”I know that some of these events don’t break even with regard to expenses. Still, the monies earmarked for the causes can be tracked all along the way.”
–It’s possible to conclude that you are saying, in part, that because events like these don’t break even, redirecting charitable giving to cover other costs is justified. In my view, unless the audience is told that a portion of their giving could be used to cover expenses rather than go directly to the charities described, the organization is not exactly being ethical. Certainly not being honest and forthright.
Glad to hear that funds earmarked for causes can be tracked all along the way. I know nothing about Passion, so have no idea who is doing the tracking or what kind of information is made available to the public. But even the best of organizations can tell most of story but not all of it (leaving out certain parts). A 3rd neutral party providing financial accountability protects the organization from itself and the donors from being deceived.
*”Ultimatly, I trust God; I have great results from this mindset. I trust my fellow man after that, knowing that my God cannot be misguided. All things together for good; this is not naivety but a true belief.”
–Yes, I can’t say i disagree. Except, I trust my fellow man (and woman) to often do extremely well in their endeavors and to have very good intentions, but to err in judgement along the way.
“All things work together for good”, but that doesn’t mean we can’t the raise the bar in standards of ethical behavior.
We can praise God and praise organizations like Passion for the truly awesome things that being accomplished, while at the same time insist on high standards in financial transparency.
Here is my whole concern. One Hillsong is Word Faith (just check out who their speakers have been: Joel Olsteen and T.D. Jakes– who does not even believe in the Trinity.) Guess who is speaking at Hillsong this year– Louie Giglio. (Where you find Giglio you will find Tomlin.)Check out the Laminin video: never in the video does Giglio say that man is sinful and Jesus died on the cross to take God’s wrath for us.
Anther concern about Worshiptogether and Passion is all their musicians have no qualms about taking a great hymn such “When I Survey the Wondrous Cross” leave out the most powerful verses (check it out he leaves out Forbid it Lord that I should boast save in the death of Christ my God. All the vain things that charm me most I sacrifice them to His blood. Then there is the verse His dying crimson like a robe spread over His body on a tree Now I am dead to all the globe and the globe is dead to me. (To look up hymns google cyber hymnal it has been wonderful.) Then they add a lousy chorus and tweak the tune, and do not give any credit to the original hymn writer. Why is the accepted in the Christian realm, it would not be accepted in a secular college it would be called plagiarism. (Go to the worship together website and you will see the only hymn writer that is given credit is John Newton (I think his name is either second or last)and this only because even non-Christians have heard of Amazing Grace.
It is about time for the Church to call these guys out and make them accountable.
jumping to the end here, so I haven’t read all the comments. My two college-age sons have attended three of the conferences, I’ve volunteered (a.k.a. been a Door Holder) at two of them. My older son attends and volunteers at Passion City Church, and my wife and I have attended occasionally.
elastigirl : yes, I’m told by friends of mine who are close enough to the staff that they should know that all the donations go to the causes – the Passion Conferences keeps none of it (though each of the causes may have its own overhead, I don’t know). The conference itself doesn’t make any profit; the ticket prices cover the costs of the venues etc. There are book/CD/DVD sales which do bring in a decent amount of revenue, I’m sure, but hardly enough to justify the event.
Yes, there’s a connection between Louie/Shelly and SixStepRecords, but I have never felt any sort of ‘buy this’ from them, Chris or any of the others. I have had a few chances to talk and hang out briefly with Louie, Chris, David Crowder and a few of the other artists in the hallways, and they all strike me as good, humble, God-fearing people.
Socks and Towels – one of Louie’s philosophies is that Christians should always do something positive on the local communities. He asks that every participant and volunteer bring a towel and set of socks; they all go to area homeless shelters, and the shelters are always very grateful to get them.
I will admit that I don’t always agree with everything said from the stage, but that’s true in any church I attend. I do believe that each of them speaks from their heart and from their reading of scripture. Of all the speakers, Piper’s the one I listen to with the most cautious ear, and I filter out much of the Calvinist side of things.