Thank you for this post. I’m a longtime reader of the blog and I’m a novelist. I discovered TWW (and Wade Burleson and Lewis Wells and a bunch of other people with great sites) a few years ago when I was researching a novel about spiritual abuse. It was published last year by Multnomah (Random House). I’ve moved on to writing my next two novels but I keep reading TWW because I continue to be very interested in the topics discussed here.

I can relate to so much of Mara’s post and Dee’s introduction to it. Although I don’t write spec fiction or read much of it, “Perelandra” by Lewis was one of those life-changing books for me when I was a teenager. I think fantasy and science fiction have the power to convey huge spiritual truths because they’re free of some of the boundaries imposed by the real world. (By the way, Christian author C.S. Lakin has some awesome posts about this stuff on her blog. And she has written some great spec fiction.)

I’ve run into many people who believe fiction is a lie. Do they think Jesus was lying when he told his parables?! (I actually worked that fiction-is-a-lie fallacy into the plot of my first novel and had a lot of fun with it.) Fortunately, I’ve also run into a lot more people who see the imagination as one of God’s most wonderful gifts, and fiction as just one more way to convey truth and/or entertainment. (It’s so freeing to realize that entertainment in itself is not evil.)

Mara, I’ve also wondered about the preponderance of Christian fiction set in the South. I’m not a southerner but I live in the South and my novels (so far) are set in Georgia and Alabama. I like your theory that fiction allows women to speak up where they might otherwise be forbidden. I really think there’s something to that. When I wanted to sound the alarm about spiritual abuse in the homeschool community, fiction gave me a way to bring up the issues in a gentler way than if I’d just started mouthing off about it. Okay, maybe fiction is just my way of mouthing off. 🙂

I could go on about this all day, but I’ll shut up now. Thank you for the great post!

Meg

Meg also has an article on the importance of fairy tales. You can find the link in the review of When Sparrows Fall which I linked in my last comment. You go girl!

I have read and re-read THAT HIDEOUS STRENGTH; last book of the C.S. Lewis trilogy with its great focus on evil and academic political correctness. It’s timeless.
Finally I have on my Kindle 17 Georgette Heyer (16 August 1902 – 4 July 1974) novels. She was the master of the English Regency romance genre. As far as I know I remain firmly heterosexual despite my love for Georgette Heyer.

I also heart ( along with a lot of seminary profs apparently) Louis L’Amour. I’ve read everything he’s ever written 3 or 4 times a piece. Unluckily, Amazon wants too much money for his library at this time. I’m waiting for prices to drop.
Louis and Georgette are my two favorite fiction authors.

Seneca,
I like L’Amour and read his stuff from time to time.

Virginia, thanks for those links and for the reviews. I haven’t read Elizabeth Julin’s book but I should. I have Hillary’s. It’s a great resource for anybody with questions about the Quiverfull movement. I appreciate all the info and encouragement you have on your blog.

Thanks for the kind words, anon1 and Mara!

Seneca, I haven’t read Georgette Heyer but I’ve been told I must. Have you tried Josephine Tey? My brother told me about Tey. “Brat Farrar” is absolutely wonderful. (Not Regency, but quality writing and it’s just as enjoyable for men as it is for women.)

I haven’t read any of Louis L’Amour’s, but my younger son has read just about everything the man wrote. He picks them up at yard sales and the used-book store, mostly.

This discussion is starting to remind me of the old Faith in Fiction site that was run by Dave Long, an editor at Bethany House. The site isn’t active anymore, but Dave left up the links to the book discussions and they’re wonderful. I think it’s faithinfiction[dot]blogspot[dot]com.

Georgette Heyer’s Regency novels were/are considered mainstream fiction in England, and lots of men like her work. (Yep, straight men, too.) A friend of mine who was a true fan (an Englishman) told me about how Heyer was consulted on Recency-era historical matters by some academic experts who didn’t have the expertise that she did in. re. many aspects of cultural history.

I think her best books are wonderful light reading, not unlike Jane Austen, though with a slightly broader scope.

*

About “Christian fiction”: The fact that it exists as a separate genre bothers em a lot, and has done for years. I wish there was simply “fiction” and “non-fiction,” period. That’s not to put down or discourage anyone who’s working in the field, but man – would I love to see a truly well-written book or three cross over from the genre shelves to “mainstream” fiction.

One thing that really puzzles me: the proliferation of “Amish romances” on the “Christian fiction” lists. I mean, ??? (I live in an area that has a large Amish and Mennonite population and am not sure how books like these are viewed locally, but… I think that the writers have a highly romanticized view of farm life/work as well as of the amish as a whole.)

[/end threadjack; no flaming intended!]

Dee – I think Children of God is a better book than The Sparrow, but that’s just me…

You know that M.D. Russell is Jewish, right? (A convert, which is a fairly rare thing.)

I have never been involved in any evangelical christian group that had a problem with fiction or drama. is this something that is tauhgt in patriarchy? I think it is unfair to say that much of the evangelical world has a problem with the performing arts. can this be backed up by stats?

Great topic, looking forward to seeing more discussion about the church and it’s uneasy relationship with the arts. Currently it seems many Christians view the arts as dangerous to the faith unless they are expressed it certain carefully supervised ways and even then caution and suspicion seem to be the general rule. Which is sad, just look at the complexity and variety within creation-the beautiful, whimsical, macabre, and downright weird, and that doesn’t even scratch the surface. In church I hear “have the mind of God” and I look at creation and think “then why are you trying to put artists of all kinds in such tiny boxes?” And a personal favorite, using the Philippians 4:8 “think on these things” passage to condem any number of genres. If you are going to use that passage as your trump card for why I should not read “x” then why are you reading the Bible, much of the OT in particular doesn’t begin to meet the criteria, have you read the book of Judges lately?

And thanks for actually mentioning the romance genre in a positive light. I know speculative fiction gets a bad rap in Christian circles but I think romance gets just as much negativity press, just in a different way. Personally I suspect some of the resistance to romance novels is that it is written mostly by women for women and therefore gets slapped with the feminist and subersive label by the mostly male dominated church leadership. I’ve heard lines like “emotional porn for women”, “unrealistic expectations”, “waste of time when the women should be taking care of her family”, “feminist propaganda”, “women are the weaker vessel, they have less discernment which makes romance novels especially dangerous”, and other nonsense from the pulpit and casual conversations. I grew up in the harder core complimentarian, shading into patriachal homeschool, IFB circles, so I tend to be very sensitive to how women, particularly artistic women are treated by the church, YMMV. *steps off soap box*

However if I ever read another novel with the phrase, “heaving bosom,” I may puke.

Promise me, Meg, you’ll forgo that phrase in all of your coming best sellers. -:)

When I was in SGM I had a SGM neighbor who said something to me about the Chronicles of Narnia, which I very much enjoyed reading to all my children from the time they were old enough to understand.

She told me she would never read those books to her children because there was a witch and ‘creatures God didn’t create.”

This was the same women whose children told my kids that “Santa was just S-a-t-a-n rearranged.” Their mother apparently instructed them every season on the evils of Santa Claus, and since I didn’t see the harm in it, her children were sent as missionaries in an effort to win my kids to the true anti-Santa Claus holiness faith.

I should have egged her house on Halloween dressed as Aslan. Or worse: Mr. Tumnus. Horrors!

Hope someone gave her the gift of imagination for Christmas, although I’m sure she would return it because it was ‘unbiblical.’ 😛

Seneca, you make me smile.

Dee,

Guess whose book gets released tomorrow… Tim Challies has written an interesting review on it.

Book Review – Real Marriage

Call me on my mobile # in the a.m. I’ll be answering on my new phone! 🙂

Thanks for this post!

The very first comment mentioned this, but I’m going to echo it; if fiction is lying, and therefore cannot be connected to Christianity, then I guess Jesus lied when he told the parables?

My biggest gripe about Christian fiction is that it focuses on “correct” content almost to the exclusion of quality writing. Much of the best-written Christian fiction I’ve read doesn’t stand up to mainstream fiction. It’s not because Christians are stupid or bad writers; it’s because the industry does not push them to their full potential. It’s so worried about including all the right salvation messages, and excluding all the wrong secular messages, that there just isn’t as much energy left over to craft really superb, diamond-standard writing.

Also, Christian fiction often feels contrived to me. Most fiction writers will tell you that stories take on a life of their own, that characters and plots often go in a direction that you didn’t plan, and you’d better let them! But Christians are afraid to let that happen, because if a plot or character goes in an unforeseen direction, it could end up bringing in elements that the publisher won’t approve of.

I hope this doesn’t sound terribly harsh. I don’t believe that all pieces of Christian fiction are bad; it’s just very, very, very rare to find one that surpasses what would be considered “mediocre” writing by the mainstream publishers.

A Concerned Christian Writer

Wow! You’re talking my language. I haven’t really had to deal with the fiction is evil stuff here, but I’ve certainly got the message from time to time that it’s definitely inferior to “serious” books. Personally I think a well-told story is immensely serious — one of the things that helped me become a Christian was that I fell in love with Aslan at the age of 9, finding him to be much more believable and relatable than the dry stuff we were told in Sunday school. I believe I am a better preacher for reading lots of fiction, because story-telling cuts to the heart of communication, and, after all, it was good enough for Jesus!

What I find in Australian evangelicalism is not so much a condemnation of literature as a huge indifference to it (which as a poet and wannabe fiction writer, drives me nuts) I actually believe that it’s the product of a deficient theology, which has reduced the Christian life to an intellectual construct where you have to “believe all the right constructs and opinions, but the heart and the imagination are left high and dry.

Meanwhile, I plug away at my little creative writing projects on my own blog ..

Meg, I just put When Sparrows Fall on hold at my library. I’m a wannabe fiction writer also, I’m just having a hard time carving out time for writing. I’m in a very demanding school program (court reporting) and have a child with high-functioning autism.

Concerned Christian Writer: Yep, you got it. Christian publishers try very, very hard to keep the books “clean” and “Christian.” Some publishers are more flexible than others, but they have to please the Christian bookstore chains or the stores won’t carry the books. As online selling takes over, that might become less of a problem. I was pleasantly surprised when my publisher was lenient about some elements that a stricter publisher would have axed. For instance, one of the characters enjoys the occasional nip of Scotch. Because the book is about legalism and spiritual abuse, my editor knew we had to keep the booze in the story. Yes, it offended some of my readers.

Lynne, believers’ indifference toward fiction is something I run into a lot. It drives me crazy. I cannot believe that the latest “how to be a better Christian” drivel by the latest hotshot preacher/writer will somehow be more valuable than a well-written novel.

“Gilead” by Marilynne Robinson is on my keeper shelf, Virginia. I’ve read it twice, so far. I loved it.

Tina, these years when you don’t have time to write might be the very years that will give you the insights and the wisdom to write something phenomenal when you *do* have time to write. And thanks for checking out my book when you’re short on time already. I hope you’ll enjoy it!

My sister-in-law, an independent Baptist would have parroted the Satan-=-Santa line at one time in her life. She was not a part of SGM, just a plain old independent Baptist.
I think a lot of fundamentalists have held to that kind of thinking; my auntie did too.
I don’t think it’s a “Calvinista” position however.

I’m surprised that nobody yet pointed out that Dana Carvey’s Church Lady skit from Saturday Night Live had the “S-A-N-T-A = S-A-T-A-N”, fifteen years ago or more. Hilarious.

And ‘fiction writer’s comment here is what I would have posted, but got ninja’d first:

“My biggest gripe about Christian fiction is that it focuses on “correct” content almost to the exclusion of quality writing. Much of the best-written Christian fiction I’ve read doesn’t stand up to mainstream fiction. It’s not because Christians are stupid or bad writers; it’s because the industry does not push them to their full potential. It’s so worried about including all the right salvation messages, and excluding all the wrong secular messages, that there just isn’t as much energy left over to craft really superb, diamond-standard writing.”

Think about how most “Christian” books go – when there’s a major trauma, the characters always fall back on God who helps, provides, and does all the right things so that everything works out in the end. It’s always uplifiting and validates our current view of God and believer-life, rather than challenging or allowing people to fall away from the faith, which happens significantly more often than is portrayed in “Christian” fiction. If more “Christian” fiction looked like the church, we’d have a lot more: gossip, promise-breaking, pornography, alcohol, cheating on tests, cheating on taxes, children who grow up and leave the church, sex, arguments that don’t end for days, and people who just stop reading the Bible and praying because they are too tired or worn out or just plain fed up with not getting “the right answer” from God.

I think a great “Christian” book would be one about some important man in a moderate church, maybe a Deacon or a Sunday School teacher, who is surfing the web, looking at pornography, and comes across pictures of the Pastor’s wife. What would that lead to, for him? For her? For the church? Unfortunately, we don’t get this kind of story. We get the wife who fears her husband is working too hard, so she prays harder, reads the Bible more, and eventually the husband recognizes the errors of his ways and everyone comes home happy at the end.

While I haven’t read everything by Francine Rivers, I have enjoyed most of her books. I think my favorite was “The Scarlet Thread” because I enjoy stories that interweave the lives of two people who lived at different times.

I also found her Lineage of Grace series to be fascinating, but I didn’t care so much for her Sons of Encouragement series. I also enjoyed how “Redeeming Love” paralleled the prophet Hosea’s story.

All-in-all I enjoy a good fiction read. However, I admit that I don’t read a lot of “Christian” fiction books.

I’m surprised that nobody yet pointed out that Dana Carvey’s Church Lady skit from Saturday Night Live had the “S-A-N-T-A = S-A-T-A-N”, fifteen years ago or more. Hilarious. — Steve Mathys

Check the Wikipedia article on “The Church Lady” sometime. Dana Carvey based her on real-life Church Ladies he’d seen in church while growing up.

And anyway, I’m convinced that The Church Lady is THE target audience for Christian Fiction (TM).

I do wish Christian writers didn’t have to tiptoe around readers who are easily offended or readers who expect a salvation message in every book. — Meg Mosely

You have touched on two tropes of why Christian Fiction is so lame:

1) Nothing that could possibly offend the Church Ladies.

2) The Altar-Call Ending. Including breaking the Fourth Wall to preach directly to the reader.

When you get into Christian attempts at SF, there are four additional ironclad tropes having to do with cross-contamination from Christian Apocalyptic:

1) No aliens. (Except for angels and especially DEMONS.)

2) No semi-human genetic constructs. (With same exceptions as the above.)

3) No settings more than “Twenty Minutes into the Future”. (Because Christ is Coming Soon (TM) and It’s All Gonna Burn (TM). Ergo, there IS no such thing as a Future. The usual result of this is two basic Christianese SF settings: Near-Future Persecution Dystopia or End Time Prophecy a la Left Behind knockoff.)

4) No settings off Earth. (Because otherwise Christ won’t be able to find us for the Rapture (TM). Again, End Time Prophecy.)

Brock and Bodie Thoene do some good historical fiction.

Thanks for this post. I happen to be both a member of the “Lost Genre Guild” and a Splashdown Books author (one of the links in the post). I’ve written on this topic more than once.

Specifically on the “fiction is a lie” argument:
http://blog.rlcopple.com/?p=59

And Resident Aliens magazine published my article on why I write Christian Fantasy that originally appeared at the end of my first published novella:
http://residentialaliens.blogspot.com/2008/12/fantasy-and-christianity.html

I should note that those who believe fantasy is a lie and therefore unBiblical, when confronted with the “Jesus told parables” point, will point out that Jesus’ parables were about real events (I suppose even the Lazarus and rich man in heaven story, from Jesus’ perspective). IOW, Jesus was pointing to a merchant buying something at a market, and told the parable of the merchant willing to sell all he had to buy the pearl of great price. Whereas I as an fantasy author cannot point to a dragon in real life. So I addressed the whole “fiction is a lie” thing from a broader perspective.

But there is some good fiction being written by Christians, both in the Christian market and in the general market. If Christians don’t influence these markets, are we just giving them over to Satan? I think that’s been some of the problems over the last one to two hundred years.

anon1 – those “drama teams” are churning out skits and plays that serve a purpose – evangelism.

That’s a lot different than drama for its own sake, or music for its own sake, or visual art for its own sake.

God seems to have created an awful lot of things for the sake of beauty alone. Or made many things beautiful that could have been strictly utilitarian. (Like flowers and trees.)

Hmm.

Mara, apologies for offending, and I guess I am out of touch, but… it’s still difficult for me to read “Christian fiction” because of the fact that authors don’t have the freedom to write according to what they really see and think about many characters and plot lines. I hope that continues to change.

As for “Amish romances” being a reflection of a simpler, better life – ???! I really don’t see it, except as another way to claim that there was some sort of Moral Golden Age that “the world” has left behind.

Jean Cocteau said,”Art is a lie that tells us the truth”. I have had experience with several people who had the fundamentalist Christian viewpoint that discarded all fiction from literature on the grounds that it was a lie. One was a fellow doctoral candidate in English a Boston University who had up til then been educated in strictly Seventh Day Adventist Schools and colleges. At BU, she had to go back to the master’s level and make up all the fiction she had missed involving several novel courses each semester. The eye strain forced her to wear glasses for the first time! She was very angry, not at BU for forcing her to make up the deficiency, but at the schools she attended for depriving her of such a wonderful source of art, culture, and spiritual and practical wisdom. She especially loved Dickens. Barbara

Barbara: preach it!

I find myself in agreement with numo, HUG, and others who see that in order for literature to be Christian (or fit for Christian consumption), it has to be forced through a grid of ideological purity. I think that this model is barely 40 yrs. old and was first advanced by Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, and other fundamentalists who found clever and business savy methods to bring their wares into the young & hip mainstream.

Evil can always be bad, but good can never be good enough on its own merits unless it passes through an evangelical filtration system.

I’m delighted to see this conversation spring up here. A variety of likes from the Christian market:

Harry Kraus is a solid suspense writer with truly human stories where things don’t always turn out “perfect.”

P.A. Baines’s “Alpha Redemption” (Splashdown Books) is literary sci-fi. It kept me up till 4 am and made me cry. Very beautiful, gritty and unusual story. Proof that we’re seeing digital production and sales models create some real freedom for innovative writers.

Francine Rivers’s “The Atonement Child” changed my life and convinced me of the power and need for storytelling from a Christian worldview (not necessarily requiring overt conversion, etc. but expressing a God-attuned sensibility).

Meredith Efken–“Lucky Baby” is fabulous contemp/literary storytelling about a post-fundamentalist woman married to an atheist. The main character is so scarred by her parents’ superstitious approach to religion that she believes she can never be a good parent. And no, the atheist doesn’t get converted. His atheism turns out to be key to the story’s resolution.

Over at Marcher Lord Press (the other sci-fi/fantasy publisher Mara mentioned), Kirk Outerbridge’s books use cybernetics to examine moral questions in a way that shakes a person up some–a *good* uncomfortable way. And award-winning author Marc Schooley is a wild blend of literary with supernatural thriller.

I’m not a romance reader, so not exactly the core Christian fiction demographic…but that means I can attest that there’s plenty out there to fly in the face of Headless Unicorn Guy’s trope concerns. Best place to find it, though, is online. Not in a bookstore that’s under huge economic pressure to cede most of its shelf space to gift shop items.

~Cat

Mara – I’m a lifelong reader, and have often been pointed out by others as that person who has her nose in a book. 😉

Please bear with me, OK? I come from a different place than you do, I think, if only because of my Lutheran background and the things I pursued in college and grad school (studio art, art history). Everybody thought I should major in English, but it didn’t seem right to me – making one of my greatest pleasures into something compulsory? No way!

So… I read very little that was on “required” lists, but spent a lot of time searching out English and American lit (fiction and poetry) and fiction from other countries. I am a closet sci-fi and fantasy fan and like good mysteries – never have been fond of romances, though I’ve had occasion to sell a lot of them! (Used to work as a bookstore clerk, for two major chains as well as for a couple of specialized independent stores that, sadly, are no more.)

Everyone has their own tastes… and my taste has never run toward reading books that I know have to be written to a certain formula, even when it’s not as strict as the Harlequin Romance template.

Am wondering if you have read anything by Flannery O’Connor? She can be difficult, but boy, does she hit the nail on the head! (She was a devout Catholic, and her Christianity definitely shows in her writing…) In the “Christian” category (but also mainstream), I think Barbara Brown Taylor, Lauren Winner and Anne Lamott have written some outstanding essays and memoirs. (B. Brown Taylor’s Leaving Church is a favorite of mine; also Winner’s Girl Meets God.)

I really don’t want to sound like I’m hanging with the snobby “literary” crowd, especially since I *love* light reading and think reading should be fun as well as challenging! And there *are* some good books out there that I think would be well-received by a lot of folks who normally don’t venture outside the “Christian fiction” category. An example: Alexander McCall Smith. His No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency series and his 44 Scotland Street series are among my favorite books… His humor is gentle and also thoughtful (kind of like a Scottish Garrison Keillor), and his characters are, for the most part, nothing if not moral. (Those who aren’t end up in some interesting situations…)

I guess one thing I would love to do is to exchange further thoughts on books, as well as recommendations. It’s a big world out here, and there’s plenty worth reading!

all the best,
numo

Also… gotta agree with Anne Rice’s comment (as quoted by Muff) and general sentiments on American Christianity… I’m most definitely Christian, but am deeply frustrated with organized religion, megachurches (although there’s only one in my neck of the literal woods, and it’s tiny compared to the real megas).

It seems to me that people who want to sell things (publishers and record labels) set up very specific criteria for the things they want to sell, and the people they thing will buy them – marketing strategies. Very specialized, in many cases – and “Christian” publishing houses and record labels are no different than their “secular” counterparts in that respect.

So, there’s a niche market, and a lot of writers are OK with working within that niche/genre – much like mystery writers go for the mystery-reading audience, no?

It would be really, really nice, though, to see the genre lines dissolve (even a little bit!) so that talented writers on *all* sides of things have a chance to reach readers who would enjoy their work.

That means that eventually, some of you folks in the “Christian fiction” field might test the waters outside there, if you see what I’m saying…

Hope that makes sense; I should really sit down and try to write a better reply than this one, which is admittedly scattershot!

Vice versa, Mara. 🙂

also… am a bit outside the loop these days, as I haven’t done bookstore work in a good while. So I don’t find out about many things until well after they’ve hit the shelves in stores and libraries.

As for Flannery O’Connor: brace yourselves. She’s not “light reading” by any means. There are times that I’ve felt like a glass of ice-cold water has been thrown in my face while I was reading her work, and she is not someone whose work I can (or will) pick up on a whim. But she was outrageously gifted… and died very young, of lupus. (Note: if she gets you down, run and get a copy of her correspondence – can’t remember the title just now, but those letters are pretty amazing, not least for her sense of humor – as well as wonder – while struggling with disabling illness. And she had pet chickens, which is a big plus in my book!)

Numo, I love Flannery O’Connor, Barbara Brown Taylor and Anne Lamott. I’ve read one book by Anne Rice and really enjoyed it.

One thing I’d like to point out is that Christian publishing is a weird mix of art, ministry, and business. Like it or not, that’s the way it is. When I wrote my debut novel, I wanted to focus on the art (which means doing the best writing I can do) and the ministry (which in this case, meant writing something that might help people who’ve experienced spiritual abuse) but I also had to keep business (the market) in mind. And because romance sells, yes, there’s a romantic thread in the story. (An unconventional one, mind you. Most romances do *not* feature a homeschooling mother of six. Thank goodness!)

I brought that up just to point out that it gets complicated, this Christian-writer business. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had these discussions with friends, published and unpublished, who are thoroughly frustrated with the status quo. I believe things are changing, but they change slowly.

Incredible book: Leif Erickson’s, Peace Like A River.

Numo, I think even you would like it! It real, raw and down to earth. I have read it 4x.

Numo, Alexander McCall Smith is one of my favs. I am always waiting for the next book. I am partial to the Dalhousie series. But loved Precious Ramestowe, too!

When Numo said

“I spent 30 years in charismatic-fundyland, too, and was ultimately kicked out. (Kinda like Amish “shunning”; I lost all of my friends and support system.)”

…I thought of what he said as it “charismatic-candyland” and I couldn’t help but think of Charlie the Unicorn and his trip to Candy Mountain.

Candy Mountain seemed like such a land of “sweet and joy and joyness” and if Charlie disbelieved he would be “shhhunnn-ed.”

So much for Candy Mountain, where inside the cave Charlie was expected to experience “a cheery land, a happy joy-filled perky merry land!”

Like Numo, in the end Charlie was thrown out of Candy Mountain, left friendless & lying on the ground without his kidney!

http://youtube.wikia.com/wiki/Charlie_The_Unicorn

Thanks, all for the recs!

meg, I must read your book now. 😀

Evie – no worries! I like your candy-land parallel, too.

Something else I have noticed in F&SF is that the Christian authors regarded as masters by the mainstream (NOT the Christianese ghetto) all came from Western-rite LITURGICAL Church backgrounds. Not Evangelical backgrounds. Tolkien was Catholic, Lewis was High Anglican, and Cordwainer Smith (counted as a Christian SF writer by everybody except the Christians — go fig) was Episcopalian (US branch of the Anglicans).

This has been bandied about on several blogs. Liturgical churches are rich on symbolism and physical interaction, and normally do not have the “Separation from the World” mentality you find so often among Fundagelicals. Or the Platonic Dualist division between Spiritual (Good) and Physical (Baaaaaad).

Some six months ago, I was very bent out of shape by reading a long My Little Pony fanfic novel — “Past Sins”, a story of a “Reluctant Antichrist” by a 20-year-old college student who wrote under the name of “Penstroke”. When questioned by e-mail and in person at a brony meetup, Penstroke told me his background was Lutheran. Just from the way he wrote, I had a feeling he had some sort of liturgical church background; if you have eyes to see and ears to hear, you will see elements and echoes of the Gospel in his fanfic (and his previous MLP fic, “Creeping Darkness”, which includes a Harrowing of Hell — where a heroine literally descends into an archetype of Hell to set a captive free — and an immortal offering up her life that a dead mortal might live again).

HUG, I think you’re onto something with the liturgical church background. James Lee Burke, Walker Percy, Diana Gabaldon–all Catholics and all writers of rich stories. (Although Gabaldon’s first one, Outlander, was the only one of hers I could really get into.)

Mara, I don’t take offense at your response to me, and I did go back to read through your post to see if I misconstrued what you had written. You asked,
“When is the last time you read “Christian” Fiction.”

I read “They Almost Always Come Home” by Cynthia Ruchti (2010, Abingdon Press) last year. I also read quite a few of the Left Behind series (though not all), and have read Frank Peretti, Larry Burkett, Kathy Tyers, Randy Alcorn, Paul Meier, Ted Dekker and probably more in the last 10 years. All of them I would call writing in the “Christian fiction” genre. Unfortunately for them, I’ve spent more time reading fiction that is not labeled “Christian” than I have in their specific aisles of the bookstore, simply because I find, as you seem to say, the craft is lacking.

You also wrote,
“Today, Christian fiction has grown and is so broad it defies the simplistic accusations that are still thrown at it today.”
While I don’t disagree that “Christian” fiction has expanded in the past few years with stories and publishers that you describe, the vast majority of work that would be described with that label will still be works over two to five years old, and therefore somewhat tame in dealing with issues and will strive to be “good” only and not “offensive” in any way.

By all means, we should be seeking to glorify God in all that we do. But does that mean that we never, ever, EVER have a character who swears? Or never have one that turns away from God and doesn’t turn back? Or never show someone who is trying to present “the Gospel” but doesn’t do so in a coherent, simple, plain way, that the unbeliever doesn’t immediately understand and kneel to pray? Because I have seen all of these meta-models of characters in “Christian” fiction, and, unfortunately, it doesn’t match with the real world of Christians or non-Christians. Christians swear – I do. Christians have crises of faith that don’t get resolved in five chapters – but all of the Christian characters manage to get theirs completely wrapped up nicely in such a short time. [e.g. – the guy in “Fireproof” managed to make all things work – the guy in “Flywheel” managed to make all things work – the guy in “Facing the Giants” managed to make all things work]. Christians get tongue-tied – but not in novels.

So, no, I haven’t searched out all the far reaches of the Christian publishing world recently. I could be missing out. But because of the vast measure of existing, simplistic work, it becomes hard to on my limited reading time, that also is taken up with history, politics, local news, and traditional non-Christian sci-fi – because the stories are just so damn good!

Err… should real “most evangelical/charismatic circles.” (Though goodness knows, the “strategic level spiritual warfare” people let their imaginations run wild, and not in a good way.

Steve and fiction writer, very good points!

Another creative non-fiction in mostly narrative form: Cold Tangerines by Shauna Niequist.

The question or thoughts on the church’s uneasy relationship with fiction, I think, is not so much about reading it… It about how much time does one spend on this activety. Is this at the expence of the Christian spending time in their bible? Josh 1:8
2 Tim 3:16. 17. And, in all of this, is a persons relationship with Christ put at jepardy? With questions ariseing from reading Fiction.. ledding them away from their relationship with Him?

al

What is really scary is that the Left Behind series was written on about a 6th grade level and was wildly popular. That was scary enough for me. I simply could not believe how many people loved those books~! I read most of them just to see what was going on. They were pedantic and IF there is such as thing as 7 year tribulation, all I could see is that LaHaye took a horrible thing romantisized it to the point of being ridiculous.

I think sometimes people become “Christian” writers or musicians because they really want to be just regular (secular) writer or musicians but just feel too guilty. They feel the need to shackle their imaginations within the confines of Christian orthodoxy. The problem is that often (not always…listen to King’s X, they ROCK!) this does not allow their imaginations to go where they should in order to be great. So, you get banal, tame, and lame results. Again, not always, but often.

I think Christians should feel free to write and sing whatever they like. They have Christ and the Holy Spirit…they will be their guides. They will let the person know when it’s okay and when they’ve gone too far. Most of the time, the limit is extremely generous indeed. God gives more latitude in our creativity than we trust Him for. I write a lot of music, and I used to re-write my lyrics because they “needed” to be more Christian. Problem was, re-written, the lyrics sucked. So, I finally came to my senses and let the words stand. The music is much, much better. Is it secular? Yes. But secular is NOT a four letter word. Secular is not going to call down the wrath of God upon our heads in tornado of molten fury. If that was the case, we’d all be Amish preachers.

Why do people feel the need to be a “Christian” writer? (Of course, I understand that some are actually called for this). Why not just be a writer. Why do you feel guity writing about zombies? Or vampires? Or wizards? Or aliens? Or middle-aged cougars with a vendetta? Why do you feel guilty about not mentioning God at all and just letting your fiction be FICTION. It’s FICTION! It’s fake! Do we take “don’t cause your brother to stumble” too far? Do we mis-apply this scripture in the name of legalism like we do with so many other verses? What if your deodorant offends your brother? Your love of curry? Do you stop eating indian food and switch to Old Spice?

I think people are free to be themselves; to sing and write about what they want. Again, those with Christ will not malign His name in their art. It’s not in their nature. There is nothing wrong with writing secular fiction, or singing secular music, or writing secular movies. I think that our lives, our interests, are much more okay with God than we realize. We have too little faith in God and ourselves and our brothers and sisters in Christ. “Why! we can’t let them read what they want! We can’t let them write about wizards or fairies! And the music…my goodness, if it’s not Bob Kauflin or Mark Altrogge then it’s just a free for all, I tell you! It’ll be an orgy Happy Meal on top of a Debauchery Big Mac!!”

You know what? I just don’t think so.

“No object is so beautiful that, under certain conditions, it will not look ugly.”. Imagine how ugly how fast for the astronaut in the photo, floating amidst the glorious beauties of space, had he found himself unable to return to Challenger for a “Safe Trip Home”.
As I mentioned a few weeks ago, “Out of the Silent Planet”, about the astronaut Ransom, was the first “Christian” book, fiction or non, I read as a Christian.
Anyone read “The Man Who Was Thursday” by Chesterton?

Argo,
As for feeling guilty, it allies to readers/listeners as well. Right now I’m listening to my second-favorite musicians (1st favorite being “Christian” musician Michael Card. I sometimes feel guilty they’re not overtly “Christian”. Yet they sing a whole bunch of scriptural quotes and allusions, kind of the reverse of “crossover”.
Re your second comment, earlier today I was talking with someone whose friend is making a movie about the Antichrist getting saved. I thought… Well, I once denied Christ and the Father, and he saved me… I once speculated “What if Hitler repented upon his death-sofa, and at the judgement-seat many refused to be “taken in” to heaven if the fuehrer were there? maybe a topic for next Christian novel.

I’m not a fan of so-called “Christian” fiction anymore than I am a fan of Christian “worship” music. I mean, how many times can one redo “I can only imagine”? Or write about some lilly white never-been-kissed-virginal-barely18 maiden who’s never even thought about sex or thought to even look down there –who goes out to the midwest to marry some small-town cute white dude who is looking for a wife all alone on the range whom she doesn’t know AT ALL but will have sex with in a few days, a baby in 09 months, all told in teh most purest and non-sexual of ways possible?

Honestly, I’d just rather keep singing hymns or listening to my jazz. Or read “Pillars of the Earth” and read about some real “church” folk who were obviously very real but very sinful–much like real life. And much like the fake peopel in the pews today.

Meh…

RE: elastigirl on Wed, Jan 04 2012 at 11:44 am:

PREACH IT SISTER! You are not alone. And yes, regarding human sexuality, Evangelical Christianity uses another and equally confining sieve, confining in the sense that there can be no grey areas, only a stark moonscape of black & white.

Frankly, I don’t have much experience with Christain fiction; it’s just never appealed to me. I have listened to Christian music, and despise almost all of it…not the content mind you, it just doesn’t interest me musically. For fiction reading, I have too many secular interests and just don’t feel like reading Christian stuff. I DO however like NON-fiction Christian literature–for instance, THIS awesome blog.

Argo & No Longer Reformed,

I’m with ya on the music thing. I’ll play Gerswhin’s “An American in Paris” over Christian contempo anyday. And that’s just one example.

Oops! Sorry George. Don’t roll over too hard, it’ll never happen again. Honest Injun!! ===> (Gershwin)

Argo–

I like Bob, but I always need the disc jacket so I can read the lyrics because who knows what he’s saying! hahahaha

And Rage Against the Machine has a few good ones here and there. I do like them. But I used to listen to Marilyn Manson… so urm….

On Tuesdays at work, we have 80s Rock Tuesday. Purple Haze, Journey, Foreigner and more… Mondays are Motown Mondays… Yes, I am the DJ, BTW. And in the mornings it’s Satie, Chopin, Bach double violin concertos or Ray LaMontagne.

I’m very ecclectic ; )

Yeah, NLR, Argo, Muff – agreed totally on the “let’s censor it” attitude toward human sexuality (and much else).

I cannot listen to “Christian music.” It bores me and I wish there were some new ideas. Now, I do like the work of quite a few musicians and composers who were/are Christian, but the contemporary ones work outside the “Christian music” box for very good reasons, mostly having to do with being able to make the music they want without any compromises. (Including obscurely poetic lyrics, the use of some profanity, *content*, etc. etc. – or because they are primarily instrumental musicians who work in challenging fields – jazz and classical, for two – where the bar is set a LOT higher than it is in the “Christian music” industry.)

I’m a musician and got through many years of (mostly) bad music by playing it – that was infinitely more fun than having to be out in the congregation singing the stuff!

Duke Ellington said that there are only two kinds of music: good music and bad music.

I think he was very, very right!

elasticgirl: “Sorry if it seems I’m straying from the “fiction” topic. But all of this applies to the creation of and reading of fiction.”

Not a problem. Really more what I was thinking about. The creative process.

As for Christian music, Sara Groves is quite original and out of the box with her lyrics. Just got her Invisible Empires CD from my husband for Christmas and have several others too.

A little:

Scientists in Japan are building a robot to take your job
Doctors in France are growing a heart that will save your mom
Eyes wide open, and your jaw on the floor
We see science fiction ain’t fiction no more

There’s a meeting of minds slowly designing our future days
Back at the office they’re running some copies from the DNA
We rob from Peter to extend Paul’s life
Cause dying ain’t no way to die

Who’s gonna stay here and think about it
Who’s gonna stay, who’s gonna stay
Who’s gonna stay here and think about it
Who’s gonna stay
Everybody’s left the room
There’s no one here to talk it through
Now stay, stay, stay

And for the oft-cited denunciation of fiction as “lies”, the Father Brown mystery “The Dagger with Wings” by Chesterton hinges on the distinction between “false fact and true fiction”.

Why not just be a writer. Why do you feel guity writing about zombies? Or vampires? Or wizards? Or aliens? Or middle-aged cougars with a vendetta? Why do you feel guilty about not mentioning God at all and just letting your fiction be FICTION. — Argo

Or a chain-smoking goth-ferret bad girl in a space-opera universe?
Or sword-and-sorcery in Mesoamerican or Old Persian settings without an elf or dwarf in sight?
Or colorful cartoon ponies in a magical land?

(Regarding the last, there is a massive onging explosion of creativity — not just fiction, but art, comics, music, and videos — around the latest incarnation of My Little Pony. I have never seen the like before, not even in Star Trek & Star Wars fandoms. Remember my mentioning of “Past Sins” by “Penstroke”? In his own words, he wrote it to Redeem a major villain/Antichrist figure (Nightmare Moon, the Dark Lord of the first two episodes) — by having her “born again” as a filly and live and grow without the Darkness of the Nightmare. So many Christians denounce everybody else to Hell while this 20-year-old college student writes 175,000 words to Redeem that universe’s Antichrist.)

NLR…you ARE eclectic! That’s an awesome music line up, I must say.

Elastagirl…I LOVE Joni Mitchel. Geeeenius. “I wish I had a river I could skate away on…” Her lyrics are second only to Bod Dylan’s in my opinion. Then comes Rage Against the Machine 🙂 (I can be eclectic too!):-)

Headless…that’s my point. Why can’t Christian’s write about that stuff? We of all people should be free to write what interests us. Of all people, God wants to see His children happy. I firmly believe this in my heart. I do not fear that freedom in Christ means an orgy of sin. I trust my brothers and sisters; their hearts. They love the Lord, they are adults, and they are free to be themselves. God LOVES you! He wants you to enjoy the imagination He gave you!

Muff Potter…just bought Dylan’s Blood on the Tracks. Shelter from the Storm and Simple Twist of Fate make me cry they are so beautiful.

MARA,
I’ve not read The Shack. Just didn’t pique my interest.

Appalled – glad to hear it. 😉 He really *is* good, and has always been wary of the “Christian musician” label.

One of the things I did appreciate about Mars Hill when I was there was that if I wanted to talk to a pastor friend of mine about the Aqua Teen Hunger Force movie I didn’t have to wonder 1) whether he and his wife had seen it (they had) and 2) whether or not they thought a Christian somehow shouldn’t watch it (they own four seasons). At least in the Mars Hill camp of the young, restless Reformed domain if you dig Zombieland and Shaun of the Dead virtually nobody is going to complain. Of course that’s why the MacArthur team has been complaining about Mars Hill for years.

Eagle, Russian classical guitar music, all the way.

As for speculative fiction, anyone else hear evangelicals lamenting Andrew Stanton’s WALL-E being too “green” despite Stanton’s Christianity Today interview?

Honestly, as a Fantasy enthusiast I think the more common issue than fiction in general is, specifically, the idea of magic in fiction. But that’s a topic that would probably take ages to discuss anyway.

Dee – ah, but that is the Deeper Magic from before the dawn of time.

the White Witch knew about the Deep Magic, but not the Deeper magic.

[Dee – apologies for geeking out!] ;)]

You know, numo, I think one of the things that won me over to fiction and seeing how powerful fiction can be (in telling stories that we already know but they have become worn out by all the telling) is the “Deeper Magic Still”.

Coming at a powerful story from a different angle can so revitalize it for us, it makes us see the newness and freshness of the original story better.

I think I did it to see what they were so afraid of.

Usually, it’s nothing a la the Harry Potter books. (Which really struck a chord for me, the last 2 books in particular.)

One of the things I did appreciate about Mars Hill when I was there was that if I wanted to talk to a pastor friend of mine about the Aqua Teen Hunger Force movie I didn’t have to wonder 1) whether he and his wife had seen it (they had) and 2) whether or not they thought a Christian somehow shouldn’t watch it (they own four seasons). — WTH

YAY AQUA TEEN HUNGER FORCE!

I’m brand-new to this blog (saw a link to it on FB), and when I noticed the Christian fiction thread, I had to jump in. After four moderately successful novels commercially published by the CBA, I walked away from it. Not from Jesus, and not from writing. I just went from “Christian writing” to being a “Christian who writes”; there’s a difference

The reasons are numerous, and unless somebody really wants to know them, I won’t bore you. Suffice it to say my first general market novel, a science fiction work, will be out next month, and my agent is actively marketing the first of my new suspense series to some New York houses.

So we’ll see. And I’m glad to be here.

elastigirl, HUG now has an even clearer picture of just what a cartoon nerd I am. 🙂 We obviously got well past the point where other people can figure out what we’re talking about.

per dee’s earlier comment about “unChristian” Christian books, I think a lot of Christians get hung up on fiction having to have doctrinally correct points at all points. The reality is that Jesus’ parables had one primary point and if you got that it was not necessary to extrapolate nine spiritual principles fromtthe tiniest details of the parable. The oil and wine in the parable of the Samaritan aren’t the Spirit and the Word, for instance, but some patristic authors went there. People who shredded The Shack for doctrinal points A, B, and C would have to take into account that if the real goal of the book was discussing X, Y, and Z then pillorying a novel for A is not assessing the book by the terms the book sets forth. I wouldn’t rip on T. S. Eliot for failing to write a sonnet any more than I would shred John Donne for not writing The Wasteland.

I’m glad to see the discussion continuing, and I’m especially glad to see John Robinson here. John, you might not remember me, but we were both part of a small, short-lived writers’ loop called “Cafe Barcelone” a few years ago. We were always discussing the same three points mentioned above by HUG (magic, cussing, and sex) but I don’t think we got anywhere. Anyway, congratulations on being published in the general market. I’m very happy for you.

Thanks for the kind welcome, folks! This is a little lengthy, so please bear with me.

Of my four CBA novels, the first three were a series, although each can be read as a stand-alone. Joe Box, a brand-new Christian, Vietnam vet, and private investigator with a dark and vicious past, was a kick to write, but God almighty, was it hard finding a house that would take them. All three are out of print now, but last year I put them up on Kindle for ninety-nine cents a pop. The titles are Until the Last Dog Dies, When Skylarks Fall, and To Skin a Cat.

The fourth novel, Heading Home, is an apocalypse-with-a-twist work, and isn’t part of that series.

Full synopses and the first chapters of each can be found on my website (click my name).

As I said, I’m now writing for the general market, with a stand-alone SF novel, The Radiance, being the first, and out next month from Musa Publishing (e-book). Here’s the setup for that:

An extraterrestrial force of unknown origin is causing the minds of every living creature to begin expanding at an astounding rate. No one knows when it will stop … or if it *can* be stopped.

The Radiance concerns the effects of this unseen force, focusing the story on two estranged brothers: industrialist Cale Walker, one of the richest men in the world, and his younger sibling Travis, a struggling farmer and former Army Special Operations combat officer. Behind the scenes Cale assembles a task force he dubs the Radiant Project, a select assembly who are tasked with finding a way to combat the phenomenon. The tycoon then recruits Travis for this crew to give his “everyman” take on things. Reluctantly he agrees, but as the effect intensifies, the erstwhile Ranger stumbles across its true origin, the discovery of which will lead to a radical rethinking of everything he thought he knew.

Finally, as I said upthread, my agent is pitching the first of my new Cameron Bane suspense series to the general market. Here’s the setup:

A former Army Ranger exacts a chilling revenge against the shadowy government agents whose disastrous intelligence error resulted in the loss of his entire command in Iraq. Using their hush money against them, he now takes on hopeless tasks for helpless people, engaging in rough adventures that just skirt the edge of the law.

For free.

Pitfall concerns Cameron Bane’s latest mission, finding industrialist Jacob Cohen’s missing teenage daughter Sarah and bringing her safely home. But for Cameron, nothing ever goes quite as planned. In searching for the girl he will encounter a new and unimaginable corruption hiding beneath a shining corporate façade.

And it is here he will also come face to face with a living nightmare, a swift and ruthless killer known only by a macabre appellation: Boneless Chuck. Every dark trick Cameron learned in dealing death to the deserving will be brought to bear as he battles to fulfill his promise to Sarah’s father. But the right person is on the job. Because sometimes it takes a man who’s spent quality time in the realms of the damned … to send someone else there. So strap down and hang on.

Cameron Bane has just been dropped into hell.

Sure, Meg, I remember you! Ah, Cafe Barcelona … those were the days.

And Dee, I’m honored you asked me to help out with a guest post; whenever works for you is fine.

I did want to tell you I’m leaving tomorrow with my company on a trade mission to Saudi Arabia (we do medical staffing work here and overseas), but I’ll be back here in the States on the 20th.

Just let me know. And thanks again.