“Unless we change our ways and our direction, our greatness as a nation will soon be a footnote in the history books, a distant memory of an offshore island, lost in the mists of time like Camelot, remembered kindly for its noble past." Margaret Thatcher
Mrs. Kennedy at the Taj Mahal
Was she homeschooling at the time?
TWW needs to apologize to those looking forward to our exposure of some of the odd beliefs of Vision Forum and gang. I still remember when my equally glamorous fellow blogger, Deb, said that she couldn’t imagine that we would find enough stuff to fill 4 posts a week. Darned if the post-evangelical world is so strange that this week we have to write 5 posts just to keep up.
A recent post over at the Gospel Coalition was so staggeringly peculiar that we could not ignore it. So, we break into our series to report on a new historical declaration, dreamed up by those praying that the Eternal Subordination of the Son is true. Did you know that Jackie O was a complementarian? Yep, that Jackie O.
Before I begin, I want to let our readers know that I was raised in a home in Massachusetts in which my father was devoted to the Kennedy legacy. As a child, I was regaled with stories of the Kennedy exploits. He even introduced to me to Ted Kennedy.
After John and Robert’s assassinations, my father created a little shrine in his medical office with their picture and a bust of the Madonna in prayer under the picture. He adored the Kennedys, FDR, and everyone who was for the “little guy.” My father, son of Russian immigrants, did not speak English until he started first grade. His parents worked in leather factories and textile mills. He remained a Democrat until the day he died but I did convince him to vote for Ronald Reagan. He did so because he said Reagan was a member of a union (Screen Actor’s Guild) and was, therefore, a good guy. My point is that I was raised to like the Kennedys.
However, as the years went on, my father grew increasingly dissatisfied with the personal lives of his heroes. He was mad about Ted’s infamous Chappaquiddick incident and was concerned with the alcoholism of Joan and others. With this, he began to question some of the antics of the Kennedy boys (as he called them) when they inhabited the White House and the Department of Justice.
He would encourage me to read some of his books that dealt with this unique family. In so doing, I learned about their well-known moral failings. I believe, that had Jack been President in today’s climate, he most likely would have been roundly derided for his exploits.
This is not meant to be a political post. There is much good, as well as some negative, to be said about the politics of the Kennedys. But that is not the purpose of this blog.
So, imagine my shock when I learned that a woman, Courtney Reissig, wrote a blog post for the Gospel Coalition entitled: Can Jackie O Teach Us to Be Good Complementarians? (PS-You have to read some of hte comments on this post. There is a woman who claims she can't teach boys who have been baptized. You cannot make this stuff up!)
One of our alert readers, Amos, who apparently has been banned from commenting over at the Gospel Coalition blogs(Amos-tell us your story), suggested we read it. We did and, at first, I thought it was a spoof. These well-read Calvinistas can’t be this naïve. Well, it appears that some of them are. Here are some of the quotes from the post..
- “Many were surprised by her devotion and view of women, especially when she revealed that all of her opinions came from her husband and that women didn’t belong in politics.”
- “Various pundits were shocked that a woman so revered in public life, and around at the dawn of the second wave of feminism, would believe such things. Even Kennedy’s granddaughters expressed horror that their grandmother could actually live this way.”
- “Now women are marrying later in life, and when they do, they bring their own opinions, values, and often paycheck. It’s not surprising that women today would scoff at a marriage like the Kennedy’s. But is there anything for us to learn as Christian women from the marriage of Camelot?”
- “ Her devotion to President Kennedy is one that, as Christian women, we can admire and desire to emulate. This unswerving commitment to his success and good is reminiscent of the biblical command given to women by God in Genesis. God made woman to be a suitable helper for her husband, to submit to him and honor him. John Piper defines submission as “the divine calling of a wife to honor and affirm her husband’s leadership and help carry it through according to her gifts.”
- “Kennedy’s support of her husband and desire to make her home a haven of rest for him is a picture of what God intended when he created men and women.”
Let me hasten to add that Reissig admits that Jackie did not have the “gospel” in her marriage. However, she seems to totally ignore practical ways that Jackie did not emulate the example of a good Gospel Coalition complementarian. I think some of these folks need to read a bit more history of those outside of the designated “cool” Reformers.
Although I eschew labels of complementarianism and egalitarianism, I think most complementarians should be embarrassed to have Jackie O being touted as a potential role model.
There is no question that Jackie was a beautiful woman who knew how to dress and how to behave in the public arena. Many men, who were smitten with her beauty and intellect, pursued her. Her dignity at the funeral for her husband was much to be admired.
How did this famous complementarian live?
What was exhibited on the outside was a masquerade for what was going on behind the scenes. For naïve people, who might be prone believe that Jackie was a “stay at home” mom, blissfully cooking soup while dressed with an adorable apron, whilst waiting for her man to come home, think again. While a large staff cared for her children and domestic needs, Jackie embarked on an ambitious and successful effort to restore the White House. From Wikipedia we learn:
"The restoration of the White House was Kennedy's first major project as First Lady. Her first efforts, begun her first day in residence (with the help of society decorator Sister Parish), were to make the family quarters attractive and suitable for family life. Among these changes was the addition of a kitchen on the family floor and rooms for her children. Upon almost immediately exhausting the funds appropriated for this effort, Kennedy established a fine arts committee to oversee and fund the restoration process and asked early American furniture expert Henry du Pont to consult.”
“She initiated publication of the first White House guidebook, whose sales further funded the restoration; she initiated a Congressional bill establishing that White House furnishings would be the property of the Smithsonian Institution, rather than available to departing ex-presidents to claim as their own; and she wrote personal requests to those who owned pieces of historical interest that might be, and later were, donated to the White House."
She even won an award for her television program that showed her renovations to the public.
She travelled with her husband on extensive foreign diplomacy expeditions and was not home on many evenings to give the kids a bath and their chocolate chip cookies.
However, the story gets darker. Jack Kennedy was purportedly involved in liasons with many women. It has been suggested that Jackie, as well, had her own relationships. It was a marriage that made many concessions for the lifestyles of the rich and famous. This was hardly the complementarian ideal.
How to approach a second marriage as a complementarian?
She met the extremely wealthy Aristotle Onassis while in the White House. After Jack’s death, Onassis pursued her and offered her money exchange for her hand in marriage.:“According to Peter Evans, Onassis offered Mrs. Kennedy US$3 million for herself and $1m for each son in return for marriage. After Onassis' death she would receive US$150,000 each year for the rest of her life. The whole marital contract was discussed with Ted Kennedy and later reviewed by André Meyer, her financial consultant.” here
How to care for a dying husband as a complementarian?
The couple lived apart for much of the marriage. Even when Onassis was dying, Jackie did not return to his side. Upon his death “Jackie Kennedy also received her share of the estate settling for a reported $10,000,000 ($26 million according to other sources) which was negotiated by her brother-in-law Ted Kennedy (this amount would later grow to several hundred million under the financial stewardship of her companion Maurice Tempelsman.” here
How to live with another as a complementarian?
Who was Tempelsman? Templesman was estranged from his wife and not divorced. Jackie and he lived together until her death.
I think it is important to look at history through the lenses of subsequent events. Jackie was a woman of her day. She looked good on the outside but was a contradiction on the inside. The 1960s begat rebellion on the part of young people who were revolting from the supposed “values” of the 1950s.
What were these values? On the outside, families looked the part of Andy of Mayberry, well scrubbed and church going. However, many families struggled. Issues such as spouse and child abuse were hidden. Substance abuse was often brushed off as dad needing the three-martini lunch and a gin and tonic at night. People went to church but for many it was a dead faith. They attended because it was expected of them and, of course, it was important to socialize with “our kind.” Churches and communities were racially and economically segregated. Ivy League schools only accepted the children of the rich and famous. Black people could not drink from the same water fountains as white. They could not even attend the same schools. In other words, June Cleaver begat James Dean (Rebel Without a Cause).
Soon after John Kennedy's assassination, our country exploded in rebellion. Young people rejected the hypocrisy of their parents’ white-washed lives and began to question their values and traditions. It was this rebellion that opened the doors to the horrors of racism and the hypocrisy of “nice” church goers who smiled during Sundays and lived lives of “quiet desperation” at home.
Please don’t misunderstand me. There were excesses in the rebellion but profound change came to our world. Jackie O would not have been able to maintain her carefully crafted mystique in today’s climate. In fact, had she been in the White House today, my guess is the Gospel Coalition would not have picked her for their gushing complementarian post.
The author of the post in question writes for the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood which, in its past, has allowed for the view that women are gullible and easily deceived. Since men run the Gospel Coalition and permitted a woman to write this piece, they are responsible for this nonsense. So, who is gullible and easily deceived?
I have news for both the author and "the guys." Camelot never existed. Oh, by the way, the answer to the question, "Can Jackie O teach us how to be a good complementarian?", is a resounding "You have got to be kidding me!"
Could Marilyn Monroe be the next example of the complementarian woman? After all, she is wearing a dress. Listen to her sing "Happy Birthday" to a President she seemed to know in a decidedly non-complementarian fashion.
Lydia's Corner: 1 Chronicles 5:18-6:81 Acts 26:1-32 Psalm 6:1-10 Proverbs 18:20-21
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“Kennedy’s support of her husband and desire to make her home a haven of rest for him is a picture of what God intended when he created men and women.”
Talk about gullible and easily deceived…
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But these guys love to re-write history!!
The first message I came away with from their initial statement is that the good complementarian woman will overlook her husband’s continuous rampant infidelity and not divorce him for it.
oh, and always look the part, no matter what
hmm..
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Deb
This has to be one of the weirdest posts I have ever seen from the Calvinista crowd.
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The other night when I saw that part of Jackie’s speech where she said that her husbands opinions were her’s I laughed and said I bet those comolimentarians are going to be all over this one. I thought too that if Mrs.Kennedy was telling the truth, then in my opinion, she was stupid. She was even more stupid to say something like that. But women of that time often thought in that way. No example for me will she be. And I certainly hope not to follow her example by closing my eyes to my husbands rampant infidelity, cheating on him in return and letting some rich man buy my sex and companionship along with my children. What woman allows herself to wear a price tag?? THIS is the chick they wanna believe sets an example for Christian women? Her actions were more identifiable with that of a high class call-girl than an honorable, moral and respectable woman. What a crock! Jackie mght have been cute but her example stops there. If I need to get out the hole one day and secure my future, and I am hopeless and destitute, I might follow her lead. Otherwise, no thanks.
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Ummm… And Onasis was fine, BTW. But still… Nun uh. (waves finger)
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Similar in some ways to Lillian Gilbreth, the mother in Cheaper by the Dozen, which used to be a favorite of the homeschooling conservatives. She had a college degree when she married at age 25, had relatives and staff to care for the house and children she had every 18 months while she earned her PhD, and provided the foundation for much of the work her husband received credit for, and carried on their work for decades after his death… yet, as per protocol of the day, she deferred to him in public and sought to stay out of the spotlight. As a result, few Cheaper by the Dozen fans are aware of what an accomplished woman she was, and how far from the QF mother ideal.
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NLR
The offer of moola from Onassis secured the deal. She acted more like a high priced call girl than a role model for the Gospel Coalition womenfolk. Do these people read any history outside of the musings of Calvin?
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You omitted two facts:
1. Jackie was a society woman to the bone. Not exactly Mayberry material!
2. She and JFK were Roman Catholic.
And… she was/is what a lot of people refer to as a “gay icon.” When I think of Jackie – and of Marilyn Monroe – some of the images that come to mind immediately are Andy Warhol’s Pop Art depictions of both women.
haven’t looked at that post yet (the one that inspired yours), but if they’re insinuating that Catholics cannot/do not “have the Gospel,” well…
(also, your opening quote is VERY ironic – can’t tell if that’s intentional or not!)
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Numo
My opening quotes and occasionally the pictures are often ironic. These definitely were.
I am shaking my head in disbelief that the Gospel Coalition could make such a mistake on this one.Forgot about the gay icon status as well. That makes it even more amusing.
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Well, we already know that TGC is a little wacko, what with their salsa dance analogies… ! 😉
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re. the quote again: the source is the finishing touch as far as irony is concerned.
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Courtney’s example is not simply a stretch, but as Dee implies, in the light of the current history, (as outlined in Dee’s post) a complementarian example that is scripturally unthinkable. (1)
Logically, the writer has inadvertently prostituted the Complementarian topic, and in time they may see that.
Possibly this was an error in zeal, i.e. the desire to take current events, ( in this case an old film recently released) and a current position of interest(Complementarian), in exposition.
You know the old saying…if you first don’t succeed…
hahahahahaha
Sopy ;~)
____
Ref: (1) 1 Cor 5:9-13.
Note:
But I do think this little nugget (simple and obscure as it may appear) should not go to waste, as the referenced writer stated: that dedicated devotion to one’s spouse, AND being in possession of the gospel (*) has far greater benefits than not.
(*) “…that Christ gave his body and poured out his (own) blood for us for the forgiveness of (our) sins.”-Martin Luther; Works, Vp 36.183
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Years ago, reading a bio of Jackie, I was surprised to find that one of Jack’s hot buttons was the amount of money she spent on clothing. Becoming president was a bit of a paycut for a Kennedy, and Jackie didn’t rein in her spending. I think that flunks her out of complementarianism. It’s been years since I read this, but seems like she insisted on clean sheets every day, and she wasn’t the one changing the beds!
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Whops! The reference in my 1:45 am. post above, with correction, should read: Ref: (1) 1 Cor 5:9-13.
I guess the other reference is a bonus…( It’s all good..grin)
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Have you read anything by Kimilla, she blogs as “The Brave Lass”. WOW!!
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Sorry, that last comment may appear to be off topic. But I was following links of links, and found her. Truly an amazing discovery!?!?
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Numo
I hadn’t thought of that! Margaret Thatcher is one on my heroes and she most certainly did NOT channel Jackie.
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Nickname
Thanks for more examples on this silly piece from TGC.
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Jack
I went over there yesterday. There is a reason that she only gets a few comments and she has been blogging for several years. She is a complementarian advocate with a sword and she cuts down anyone who disagrees with her.
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Jack
As for amazing, it is amazing that she perseveres. I would love for one of the many women who comment on TWW to go over there and engage her. They may need to take Valium first, however.
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Sopy
Do you think the folks aver at TGC realize that they made a mistake in publishing this silly piece. It certainly detracts from their supposedly “high” standards. As for the quote, I agree. But ,there is one curiosity. Recently, they have been pushing the “gospel” word as an adjective in many situations. One is gospel marriage. The other is gospel parenting. What do you think they mean? I admit I am a bit stymied. I thought I knew what the gospel is.
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Dee–
From the neo-Reformed bent, I can assure you that you have NO IDEA what the Gospel is! Hahahaha! Right now, we could be considered having a ‘gospel conversation’. hee
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Oh dear
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Jack and Dee. Re the Brave Lass,
I’m a middle-aged usually brave man, and if I commented there, I’d fear being sent to the naughty chair, or maybe corporal punishment… Trouble sleeping last night after reading the comment stream over at the coalition site, after a few initial laughs over the Jackie O story.
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dee
WOW!!! – And an expert on the Kennedys also – Who would have thunk it… 😉
Nice article – You’re right – You can’t make this stuff up.
The comments there are worth a read. Lots of folks with some good stuff. 🙂
Do have to make a little correction about being banned.
It’s only the main Blog – Gospel Coalition Voices – that has banned me.
And they won’t tell me why – and I’ve asked… 😉 😉
I even sent an email, with the comment that was banned, to about 30 of the
“Senior Pastors” and professors on their board of 45, asking why it was banned. 😉
And NOT one answer. Boo Hoo… 🙁
Justin Taylor, let’s “most” of my comments remain. Only changed my name a few times. 😉
But… He no longer will dialogue or answer questions.
I do get into some interesting conversations there. 😉
Kevin De Young, to his credit, allows “all” my comments. And I ask some hard questions.
And I do get into some conversations there while overturning some tables and idols.
But… Kevin no longer will dialogue or answer questions either. 😉
Ray Ortland let’s “most” of my comments remain.
He only removed a few of my comments. 😉
Thabiti Anyabwile made it tuff for awhile – had to change my name a few times. 😉
And he attempts to be kind and answer hard questions. He does a pretty good job.
Only twists a few scriptures. 😉
Oh Yea – When he could no longer defend “Salsa Dancing as good for male leadership”
he went on vacation and closed the comments. Oh well…
Jeremiah 50:6
My people hath been *lost sheep:*
*their shepherds* have caused them *to go astray.*
1 Peter 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
I’m Blest – I’ve returned to the Shepherd and bishop of my soul… Jesus…
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Notice I called it just coalition, because I’m having some doubts about the gospel presence there. Do the same with the “council on manhood and womanhood” due to doubts about the “biblical” part.
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Something sounded familiar about Mrs. Courtney Ressig. So I did a quick search and realized she is the former Miss Courtney Tarter immortalized over at Wade’s blog back in 2008 with her koolaid stance on women:
http://www.wadeburleson.org/2008/10/my-prayer-for-miss-courtney-tarter-that.html
Here is her personal blog:
http://www.cdtarter.blogspot.com/
Seems Mrs. Ressig is quite the up and comer with the patriarchy crowd. Perhaps she wants to take over for Mary Kassian or Carolyn McCully as they are aging. I bet it helps pay the bills in her new marriage. There is a lot of money in teaching women their husbands are to take the place of the Holy Spirit in their lives.
But when I read this piece at the Gospel Coalition, my first thought was that they cannot be this shallow or ignorant. Surely not. Then I thought perhaps they are trying to attract more democrats as customers for their various conferences, books, etc and painting Jackie O as a comp would be an interesting strategy.
Actually, I think my first thought was the correct one. They really are this ignorant and shallow. But that is what happens in their isolated and insular world. When one things they can make Jackie O’s marriage to JFK into a model of a comp marriage, they are basically telling us that comp wives must look the other way, no matter what the husband does. This would fit with the advice Piper gave to any woman whose husband asked her to be a part of the threesome.
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http://www.wadeburleson.org/2008/09/full-disclosure-and-christian-integrity.html
And here is a link where “Miss Tarter” was chosen by SBTS as a random student representative to be interviewed by ABC News during the Presidential campaign. But the truth was that these “students” were also “paid” employees of SBTS.
What cracked me up at the time about Miss Tarter (Now Mrs. Ressig) is that she claimed to be a “recovering feminist” back in 2008 while a student at SBTS. What was she? All of 19? 20? Wow, she must have been all over corporate american competing with men for high level jobs and burning her bra on courthouse steps when she was 12.
These people are too silly for words.
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Lin–
They really are too silly for words…. Their forumula is an old one though–much like that of totalitarian nations in the past–create a boogeyman, instill fear to the highest order, then offer protection in exchange for freedom from the boogeyman you created but are sure to hide the fact that you did.
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Appalled
Listen, I am very brave and I wouldn’t for fear she would strip away all vestiges of my female personhood. Good night! No wonder folks don’t comment.
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A Amos Love
When you deal with the Calvinistas, you must remember this. They will answer your initial questions because they have been trained to do so. However, you are supposed to immediately confess the error of your ways because of their very, very biblical and gospel answers. If you have followup questions, you must be part of the non-elect and are not worth their time. You know, pearls before swine and brush the dust off your feet sort of thing.
Thank you for a good laugh today. In fact, you sound a lot like us. Let me ask you a question. Do you still have the following?” I even sent an email, with the comment that was banned, to about 30 of the“Senior Pastors” and professors on their board of 45, asking why it was banned. And NOT one answer. Boo Hoo… ” This question and their lack of response would make for a very interesting blog post. Interested?
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Appalled
Welcome to the club. I have been harping on the words “biblical” and “gospel” used as adjectives.
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Someone over at the coalition needs to do a study on the Proverbs 31 woman so the women over there can be set free – liberated in the true sense! How would they apply “Charm is deceitful, and beauty is vain, but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised” to Jackie O? So they are praising her practices and not her fear of the Lord? What kind of theology is going on over there? Seems to be a lot of “practice” worship going on. Why do you think we so easily fall into the worship of “practices” instead of living in the freedom we have in Christ? This phenomena (sp) can be seen throughout history.
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Lin
I am becoming more and more stymied by this crowd. How could they be this ignorant of recent history? They often portray themselves as great students of history and then they put this pablum out there. They are beginning to sound spiritually adrift.
Also, thanks for reminding me about Ressig’s background. Let’s see, she was an ardent feminist at 18. Wow! Such a witness to a changed life. Why do I get the feeling that this is the same sort of thing that people fell for when Mike Warnke was running around saying he was some sort of converted satanist. Let’s see, I met Bella Abzug at a social event when i was 19. Ergot: I ,too, was a feminist. Rubbish, all rubbish!
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NLR
By allowing this stuff to be published on their site, they are demonstrating their lack of true historical understanding.
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Dee
“Christian” used as an adjective goes the same way. I can appreciate the point Mr Piper makes about enjoying God, for example, but have trouble with his applying the “Christian” adjective to something like hedonism (totally negative the few times it’s in scripture) thereby making it positive. I think I can make an equal case for Christian worry or Christian greed or Christian thorns. Getting off topic a little. Mr Piper might warn me about this website… Must… Not… Think… Of…Dee and Deb as pastors… Trying hard… Whew… That one was close.
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I can’t help but think they (calvinista crowd) want it both ways. They want to claim Jackie as their own, but only so long as it advances their ideology. The rest gets swept under the rug.
For those interested, Stephanie Coontz’s “The Way We Never Were” demolishes the myth of the good old days so touted by partisan politics and the evangelical right.
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“Also, thanks for reminding me about Ressig’s background. Let’s see, she was an ardent feminist at 18. Wow! Such a witness to a changed life. Why do I get the feeling that this is the same sort of thing that people fell for when Mike Warnke was running around saying he was some sort of converted satanist. Let’s see, I met Bella Abzug at a social event when i was 19. Ergot: I ,too, was a feminist. Rubbish, all rubbish!”
It is the same concept as all those celeb pastors out there whose children are 6….yet they are selling conference tickets to teach us how to raise godly kids. All hat no cattle.
Courtney was a radical feminist before she was 19? OKEY DOKEY.
Are we seeing a pattern here? “We are the experts”. So we can sell books, articles, speak at conferences, etc, on these subjects.
I say it is nothing less than promoting careers in this market nice. For Courtney, her market niche is pro- patriarchy from a feminine perspective. Nothing less. I do not think her market niche stops to think this young woman really has not had much experience as a “radical feminist”. :o)
Without the endorsement of Russell Moore, SBTS, the Gospel Coalition and CBMW, Mrs Ressig would simply be making sure she does not have a junk drawer.
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“For those interested, Stephanie Coontz’s “The Way We Never Were” demolishes the myth of the good old days so touted by partisan politics and the evangelical right.”
YEs, they have rewritten history to claim that women throughout history have lived the Ozzie and Harriet model of the 50’s. Nevermind those women working in sewing factories, family farms with a baby strapped to their backs, having babies in covered wagons on the prairie, etc. Unless the family were quite wealthy, women have been laboring for thousands of years right alongside their husbands FOR the provision of the family.
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Appalled
Think of us as two ladies who get up to sing solos in church on Sunday. Mr. Piper allows that, doesn’t he? But we do sing our own tunes and some say we march to the beat of a different drummer.
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Muff
You are singing my tune. The good old days involved entrenched racism and class discrimination which was practiced with great vigor in the churches. I still contend that James Dean is the icon that exposed the hypocrisy of the 1950s.
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Lin
Guess what? There was a comment ping back to another blog that linked back to us today over at TGC. Somehow, the comment seems to be missing. Perhaps I just hallucinated it???
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A Amos Love
I much appreciated your brief presentation of the Gospel (noun) above. It helps keep me from becoming too cynical. Since you’ve interacted with Kevin DeYoung in the past, maybe you could enlighten me as to thia statement of his, in a sermon which made me feel appalled at his use of Scripture and assumptions about any listeners who might disagree.
“Have you ever noticed that after Eve sins by taking a bite of the fruit, who does God first address? Adam. He was to be responsible. And yet he abdicated the very authority that he was supposed to lovingly exercise. And Eve, contrary to design, usurped her husband’s authority.”. It’s quoted on CJ Mahaney’s blog in June or July, just before his announcement of going on leave. Male and Female for a Purpose. In a previous part of the sermon he said Adam was sitting idly by abdicating his God-given leadership and responsibility while the serpent came to Eve lying about gender roles. And silly me thought he was “with her, and he did eat”.
I asked my pastors for their opinion. One thought it was good but didn’t have time to elaborate. He didn’t mention some problems I thought glaring. The others haven’t gotten back to me after a couple weeks, so I suppose I’m wasting their time and must ask people on a blog… Again the lack of response like you get… But we have a pretty small church. Unless by asking questions I’ve unelected myself and should say “they”…
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Dee,
I seriously doubt you were hallucinating about comments disappearing over at The Gospal Coalition, specifically relating to the Jackie O post.
The truth is finally coming out about how this crowd manages their squeaky clean image – IMAGE being the operative word…
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Dee/Deb
I suppose if you founded the church that meets at the TWW blog, you are at least the elders of this church. Perhaps we need a e-ordination so the two of you can be pastors of this church you have planted in the blogosphere.
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RE: dee on Thu, Sep 22 2011 at 07:40 am:
FDR was one of my all time heroes. I am firmly convinced that if the Glass-Steagall Act were put back into full force, we wouldn’t have to worry about running out of other people’s money as Maggie Thatcher was so fond of saying. ===> (smiley face goes here)
I promise Dee, no more politically motivated hi-jack attempts!, Scout’s honor & Honest Injun!
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Arce
I have always wanted to get “ordained.” I’ll take an e-ordination-it sounds so cool. BTWI like the way you said this “the church that meets at the TWW blog.” So many people think of the church as a place when it is a spiritual body. Well said!!!
From the Right Reverend Dee
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“Guess what? There was a comment ping back to another blog that linked back to us today over at TGC. Somehow, the comment seems to be missing. Perhaps I just hallucinated it??”
No, they cannot allow other views. their followers might try to think for themselves instead of looking to them to know what to think and believe. They are the experts, remember?
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Appalled
So sorry to inform you that such a query calls into question your election. However, Arce has said something about me receiving an e-ordination so I now confer on you the right to ask questions without fear of loss of election status. BTW-your question is interesting and we should throw it up for discussion.
The Right (identifying myself as a conservative to allay fears) Reverend Dee
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Muff, I have the opposite view of FDR. ONe of the little known secrets is that his mommy, Sara, brought his “allowance” to the White House each month. He was authoritarian who would not give up power once he got it and prolonged the depression trying to spend our way out of it. (Just had to bring in another view :o)
Great book on the Depression: The Forgotten Man by Amity Shlaes.
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Muff
My dad would be applauding your comment. It makes me smile to think of it. Please feel free to do the occasional hijack. You are one of the good guys.
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Lin, Assoc pastor?
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Dee,
You might be the Mid-Road Reverend Dee. (The “right” in that context usually indicates a bishop.) We used to have a friend that was fairly liberal and believed that the Bible mandated that we eliminate hunger, abuse, human trafficking, etc., as Christians (the church in the largest sense), as denominations, as churches (locally), and through governments. We called her the Left Reverend. I do not think you are as weirdly right wing as to be called the Right Reverend, even if you are usually correct.
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To do the e-ordination, you need to devise a little service on the blog, with some scripture readings (typings by designated commenters), a prayer or two (ditto), and have someone make a charge to the ordinands (you and Deb) and to the congregation, your readership and commenters. As the ordinands, we will let you put together the order of worship for the event.
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Could it be that the TGC crowd is actually attracted to Jackie & JFK because of the superficially glamorous image they had (and still have, to a certain degree) in the media?
They really must not know anything about the turmoil of the 1960s, either…
And Dee, I hate to break it to you, but your view of M. Thatcher and mine are not exactly alike. Surprised? 😉
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Lin
Associate pastor does not do you justice. Since i am going a bit more formal in the church that meets at TWW, how about Her Eminence? It has a certain restrained elegance.
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We can also see that TGC is ignoring people like… Eleanor Roosevelt.
[cue irony]
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Arce
MidRoad Reverend it is , then!
Now, for Arce we need something that gives a nod to the mixed up gender designations in this thread.. How about Father Superior, evoking memories of the kindly Mother Superior in the Sound of Music.
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um… abbot/abbess. (Somebody got to it before you did, Dee!) 🙂
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Numo
I hereby designate you Abbess Numo of the Church at TWW. I’m thinking about getting a ring put on the front of the blog so you could all blow kisses at it since we don’t get together to kiss my ring.
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Deb
I am thinking about Saint Deb for you. OK?
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Lin said,
“Something sounded familiar about Mrs. Courtney Ressig. So I did a quick search and realized she is the former Miss Courtney Tarter immortalized over at Wade’s blog back in 2008 with her koolaid stance on women”
Lin,
I have kept up with Miss Tater since she got married and told Dee immediately that Wade Burleson had called her on the carpet in the post you cited.
Come to think of it, the church is comprised of those who have surrendered their lives to Jesus Christ, and that certainly describes many of us in this forum.
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Dee: LOLZ – all I can see in my head is the late Numo the Hedgehog dressed up in a teeny-tiny nun’s habit! (And Numo was a boy, too. ;))
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Numo
Perfect. Since he was boy he adds to the mixed up nature of these designations!
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Lin,
Shlaes book is on my further reading list. I have always liked to look through the telescopes of others, even when their viewing angles don’t comport with mine. I have a very catholic (small “c”) outlook on most issues.
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Since every church needs a congregation, including the occasional regular visitor. I’ll take that role. And being a good Baptist, who knows how members need notches to advance in heaven. Eagle brought me.
PS I’m enjoying this conversation.
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Muff, Good for you! We need to study the depression from every angle. From Keynes on…to the Road to Serfdom.
Welcome Anna!
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“Since i am going a bit more formal in the church that meets at TWW, how about Her Eminence? It has a certain restrained elegance.”
I like elegant. It might have to do since no one is going to call me, “Your Grace”. My head is already swelling…now about conferences, books, materials, etc. You think I could sell my sermons?
(wink)
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To: The COTWW, together with Her eminence abbess MRR Dee and St Deb. Since I sort of nominated the pastors, does tat qualify me as a superlative apostle? All kidding aside, it’s nice that saints can kid here, unlike all the tomfoolery going on in dead earnest some places. Since you moderators are almost ordained now, I would appreciate anything you can find about Mr DeYoung’s ideas, especially seeming to put Adam and by extension all husbands in the place of mini-mediators between God and Woman. I don’t oppose all complementary or complimentary ideas, and not positive we should ordain women. Indeed, my doubts along that line are greater on the ordaining part. I just want Christ’s body to be fully equal in our access to our one God through our one Head and Him alone. Amazing that in the COTWW, a first time communicant like me can have pastoral committee input. Many church leaders ignore the input even of members in such matters.
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Anna
Welcome. Especially since you are a friend of Eagle who is a valued friend. Now therebis a problem. If you are a new member of the congregation and you lean Baptist, this means we must have a visitation committee. Do you think Eagle mightbbe willing to be Deacon Eagle and head up said ministry?
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Oh, one more thing– I almost forgot. I am repenting that earlier I mentioned my imagining that my pastors might be imagining bad things about me. I have no evidence of that, and they are my friends. Oh, vain imaginings. I also repent for putting them on the pedestal of expecting more of them than other brothers in the Lord, leading to my disappointment and frustration and feeling ignored. Hope the COTWW doesn’t require confessing to others sins of the heart unknown (till then) to the others.
Thanks for the forum, though I may little post in the future, but will read. I think my moniker here applies not so much to me as to the heavens, as in Jer 2:12. ” Be appalled, Oh heavens, at this”
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Apostle Apalled
Kevin DeYoung is part of the inner circle of the Calvinistas. This group is marked by a belief in the Eternal Subordination of the Son and a view of men as patriarchs and women in subordinate roles in eternity. Their beliefs are marked by rigid Calvinism which often uses the words biblical and gospel as a preface to various secondary issues in order to “prove” their interpretation. They are always right when it comes to any Biblical issue because they know how to correctly interpret any Bible verse.
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Appalled
Be careful that you don’t expect more of yourself than you do for others. Have enjoyed your comments.
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I heard that they will be adding a degree called the Stepford Wives Degree program. Several years ago I met a woman under Ms. Klouda that knew way more about Baptist history than I ever did. I was blown away. It got me wondering “If it disgraceful for a woman to preach” neant that perhaps Paul was asserting “hey men I meant that its disgraceful to you men” for not being equipped enough.
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Who’s going to be the adult male Sunday school teacher???
Wait for it…
Wait for it…
Meeee!!! I nominate myself?? Please vote for NLR! (wait..hold up). Rev? Are we congregational? …. Haha!
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ELder NLR
Please plan your first lesson to deal with ESS. I will be in attendance as your covering.
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NLR, I second your nomination because we are democratic here, right? Congregational polity? Priesthood of believer….just don’t forget to call me Your Eminence and buy my books I plan to write to tell everyone what to think. I am an expert, you know.
These titles and power, corrupt!
(wink)
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NLR
Congregational? Heck no! This is my one and only opportunity to be in authority.
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Casey
The Klouda incident is a blot on Paige Patterson and the rest of SWBTS. There are some men that should hang their heads in shame.
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Her Eminence, Lin
See. I am already going down the path to corruption. I am planning my first book on How to Be Humble Even Though I Am Magnificent.
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@ Dee: do you remember that country song that starts “Oh Lord, it’s hard to be humble / when I’m perfect in every way”? 😉
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Hahaha! Y’all seriously have my laughing out loud over here. Since we aren’t congregational, Dee, then I’m sure you’ll install me right away! My lesson on ESS shall commence this Saturday after our leadership meeting and sermon review from last week’s message.
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Numo
That is a great song. I need to see if it is on you tube-it has potential for a post.
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Dee: “I am planning my first book on How to Be Humble Even Though I Am Magnificent.”
Hmm, I’m pretty sure that book has already been written. 😉
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Dee,
I think everyone who contributes to sharing the “message” on the site, the regular commenters, should be considered “elders” in the COTWW. That way we can all be truly humble while lording it over the sheeple who only read. Perhaps we should teach tithing to make this ministry profitable for all of us.
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Dee and Deb could be ordained and qualify for the ministers housing deduction (allowance), as could any who do any of the preaching on the site.
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Dee,
“When you deal with the Calvinistas, you must remember this. They will answer your initial questions because they have been trained to do so. However, you are supposed to immediately confess the error of your ways because of their very, very biblical and gospel answers. If you have followup questions, you must be part of the non-elect and are not worth their time.”
This is SO true! I don’t participate on Calvinistas’ blogs, but I’ve had this exact experience with my brother, a Southern Baptist Calvinista pastor. He uses his facebook to quote Puritans, Family-Integrated Church leaders, and other Calvinistas. Recently, another family member and I challenged, respectfully, his lofty views of the Puritans and a post about Adam not protecting Eve from what she did to usher sin into the world. According to his Puritan source, if Adam had been near to protect her, she would not have fallen prey to deception. Apparently, Adam would not have fallen prey to Satan’s deception in the garden, and men are close to being sinless. He responded back with a carefully crafted defense which didn’t come close to proving his claims. When I responded the second time in both cases, with clear and biblically supported information or history, he completely removed my posts and the entire dialogue, leaving his original posts. I believe that facebook is an open forum. If you’re choosing to post numerous times each week and using your facebook for a particular purpose (which he is), you’re inviting dialogue. Apparently, he only wants dialogue that is in complete agreement with him.
I believe this recent post by my brother sums up what these complementarian folks want:
“A gracious wife satisfieth a good husband, and silenceth a bad one. –Puritan George Swinnock”
Not only are beliefs like these bringing division to the body of Christ, but they’re hurting Christian families and the Gospel message.
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Arce
I am so excited. We have found a loophole. Tithing is for wimps. I want to teach all of the donations required by the Old Testament. I think it adds up to over 20%.
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Wendy
I believe that the Gospel Coalition may have removed a link from another blog who quoted this blog. This makes me ecstatic because it shows that my perspective is dangerous to their assumptions. You have done the same with your brother. He is deeply threatened by you and proves it by removing your comments. Keep up the good work. I guarantee you that he reads them before he deleted them so the thoughts get into his brain and, one day, may come to the fore.
Compare that to this blog. Those who are truly comfortable with who they are and what they believe invite all sorts of comments and criticism. In fact, I enjoy it. Faith built on truth can stand up to any criticism. Faith built on secondary issues and faulty assumptions will fall the minute it is challenge.
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To all readers
There are some comments now over at the Gospel Coalition calling egalitarians “heretics.” So, now OE/TE and egalitarianism are no longer a secondary issues. This is now being called heresy. These are calvinistas. I imagine that they would recommend a John Calvinista solution-off with their heads! I swear these people are getting crazier by the minute.
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Dee,
The OT has three tithes, two every year of the growth of crops or herds, and one every third year. So 23.33%. Plus mandatory offerings after the birth of a male child, especially the first son (could also cover female children, but I am not sure about that), annually for sins committed during the year, after healing, etc., etc., etc. Could be a real racket. NO WAIT, the one tithe preached in the megas generates millions — IT IS A RACKET.
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Arce
Since I am “in authority” and am female, I hereby declare female children exempt from being taxed and male children subject to triple tax. Now, this statement alone will be proof that I am a flaming liberal.
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Ted
Oh yeah, why don’t you tell them to read both of our many Letters to the Editor written in the News and Observer and the Dallas Morning News? They are published under our names. Also, why don’t you read the editorial written by a News and Observer editor about how the two of us (they named our names) challenged them on their biased editorials? Liberal? Falling down laughing… So, 2 1/2 years of blogging, along with published letters should give our concerned “friends” something to read on this rainy end of the week. Is this enough “proof’ for you to defend our honor?
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dee
Yes – We had a good laugh – they can’t even see the foolishness.
When you’re deceived you don’t know it.
I’ve been there… Thought what I believed was “Truth” – ooops – wrong again. 🙁
It’s a good thing we serve a God of mercy.
And I’m thinking about, and praying about, your offer about the emails sent.
Yes – I still have them.
How can I receive automatic emails when new comments are posted?
I have to keep coming back to your site to see what’s going on.
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A Amos
We are going to build that into the update.
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dee
Here’s what I sent to Kristen – KR Wordgazer at the Gospel Coalition Blog – who took some heat
and held her ground – and taught me a lot. And was kind of frustrated with the way it ended.
Much agreement when you say…
“if we could get rid of this glorification of church leadership, it would go a long way towards solving the problem of women in ministry– because who could object to women being fellow-servants?”
Where I live in “The body of Christ” – NOT “the Corrupt Religious System” we see today – this gender issue – “Comp. or Egal”- does NOT exist. Roles do not exist. “Disciples of Christ” do NOT exercise, or assume authority over another “Disciple of Christ.”(Mark 10:42) In Christ we are “ONE.” “The Church” is “the body” of Christ. NOT a building, an organization, an institution or a corporation. Keeping to “The Traditions of men” is not the point.
Where I live in “The body of Christ” it’s about – Who knows Jesus? Who is Hearing “His Voice?” Who has a living Christ within? Who has the Spirit of God dwelling in them? Who has been taught by God? Who has a revelation from God? Who is exhibiting “the Fruit of the Spirit?” Who is moving in the “Gifts of the Spirit?” Male or Female.
This is what’s important. ALL can “hear from God.” ALL can, and are expected to, participate.
1Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, **every one of you**
hath a psalm, **hath a doctrine,** hath a tongue, **hath a revelation,** hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
It’s NOT about “Who” does the teaching,
But, “Who” has a revelation from God, male or female.
It’s about recognizing the Spirit that dwells within the person.
The Spirit of God? Or, the Spirit of the world? Or, ….
1Cor 2:12
Now we have received, not **the spirit of the world,** but the spirit which is of God;
that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Cor 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God,
and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
When it’s the same “Spirit of God” dwelling in male and female…
Does gender matter?
In, Jesus, He is the head of the body, (the ekklesia, the called out ones)
“the Church.”
We are all ”ONE” body. We are all “ONE” in Christ.
Keep the faith – more and more are seeing the truth… 😉
Try this site – your comments and others were appreciated
http://thewartburgwatch.com/2011/09/21/the-gospel-coalition-channels-jackie-o-as-a-model-of-complementarian-womanhood/
Be blessed and be a blessing…
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You know that there is a website that one can come with their own stylish bumpersticker. Perhaps this would be a good one for Fort Worth people. “Paige Lied and the Program!” Really thinking about it….
This guy can’t even identify a thief where he indicts non-tithers as BEING one.
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Casey
I have become very disenchanted with both the SBC (read Hardball Religion by Wade Burleson) and personality pastors . I have successfully retreated into a nondenominational church which, as any church, has its problems but far fewer and more easily remedied than the mega churches, and even worse, the mega pastors.
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NLR,
Your former pastor, Mark Dever, is at Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary doing his 9Marks spiel. This is the third year SEBTS has held the training conference. Did you know that the first year it was held, Mark brought his BFF C.J. Mahaney to teach on Expository Preaching?
Expository Faithfulness – C.J. Mahaney
I guess Mark Dever is looking forward to having Mahaney fill in for him at church tomorrow since he’s had such a busy weekend… What a joke!
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“Did you know that the first year it was held, Mark brought his BFF C.J. Mahaney to teach on Expository Preaching?
Expository Faithfulness – C.J. Mahaney ”
This only proves how they redefine things. CJ an expository preacher? Seriously? Has anyone listened to him for any length of time?
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Lin
Both of us travelled undercover to an SGM church and did listen to Mahaney. He made me nervous. The first 15-20 minutes were spent talking about sports and stuff like that – lots of jokes. Then he jumped around, both physically and exegetically, and I found it hard to follow. Why is this? How did he gets so popular with these “oh so serious” pastors? I am flummoxed.
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Dee,
Mahaney wasn’t just talking about sports – he was reporting on the bloodbath that took place in Cameron Indoor Stadium the day before. The score was Duke 85 Maryland 44 in case anyone’s interested.
ESPN Recap of Duke/Maryland game (1/24/09)
Maryland (Mahaney’s favorite team) had traveled to Durham to take on the Blue Devils, and the pastor (Phil Sasser) got tickets for Mahaney, his son, and his son-in-law. It’s kinda ironic that Sasser is now serving as Mahaney’s advisor. The message we heard that Sunday — “Cravings and Conflicts” — was so bad that SGM Apex did not post it on their website. Instead, they posted a previous sermon on the same topic that Mahaney had delivered in another venue.
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Since TWW will now don the trappings of a brand new religion & hierarchy, does this mean that Muff might face a heresy trial for his unconventional views regarding various doctrinal positions?
===>(smiley face goes here, all in good fun!)
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I do not think the COTWW does heresy trials, except for those who have blogs and do not allow comments and seek to comment here. I suspect our Honorable Leaders would consider that heresy.
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Muff
You are a Sir Muff-the royal representative to this religious menagerie. It is a subtle nod to church/state relationships.
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Dee & Deb… since NLR is going to do classes on ESS, I’ve got to do one on creeds of the church! (The ancient ones, y’know.)
I’ll wear full battle array (as some nuns I used to know referred to the old habit) and carry one of those long, knobbed sticks for bopping people in the head – I think the English Puritans were fond of those, so it’s my nod to the calvinistas.
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… and, since I’m not a nun in real life, what could I wear for the “full battle array” outfit?
A Chanel suit, maybe? (only half joking; I’d like one!)
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MRR Dee,
Just checking in for some helpful superlative apostolic oversight and support. How are the sheeple of the blogosphere getting on? ESS go OK? (took me this long to figure out what that meant). Tithes coming in?
Apostle Appalled
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Numo
I really like the idea of Elder Numo patrolling the aisles and bopping them over the head. When complaints are received, just refer them to the vaunted Puritans for proof texting.
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Numo
You can get some good deals on Chanel on ebay.
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Hee hee!
But I’m Abbess Numo, or have you forgotten? 😉
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Abbess Numo
My brain is deteriorating. My humble apologies.
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Mahaney and expository preaching??? I laugh upon it. What a crock! I’m bout to go and write up my next Sunday school lesson on what expository preaching is and use Mahaney as my example of how NOT to do it! LOL
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Elder NLR
And that is why I appointed you Elder of the CoTWW
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If any of the men in my SS class ask me questions about ESS, I will kindly defer them to ask their wives when they get home.
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…afterall, I can’t be bothered by silly elementary questions that they should have understood in primary sunday school. When did we ever teach them that Jesus was less than the Father? Besides, I’ve got four books to write before this upcoming conference anyways.
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Apalled on Thu, Sep 22 2011 at 04:58 pm:
You asked your pastors about Eve sinning and Adam being called afterwards. I know of two possible answers, besides the one Kevin de Young gave:
1) The Hebrew word for Adam is also their word for human, with no capitals telling us whether it speak of the individual or the group. See, for example, Gen. 5:2 – He called man and woman Adam. God called them both: “Humanity(humans), where are you?”That is the answer I believe.
2) Here is another answer: http://kbonikowsky.wordpress.com/2011/08/15/making-a-small-difference/
I hope it helps.
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Retha,
Both 1 and 2 very helpful, and examples, IMO of simple, careful, and perhaps brilliant Bible exposition, while the “brilliant” popular teachers of our day say things like “the man was sitting idly by” and “when Eve sinned”, contradicting the supposed point that the man is more responsible. I can only surmise Mr DeYoung got these phrases from other preachers quoting still other preachers.
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So to answer my own question with a theory… Maybe those who make such statements (or those like “man abdicates his authority”. “woman usurps man’s authority”) have heard them repeated so often, they think they must BE scripture. Therefore no need to support them FROM scripture. Therefore anyone questioning them is wasting their time.