Helicopter Parents on Steroids

"I think with many more of today's parents than in the past, the "helicoptering" is more about over-protecting them from what they perceive to be this dreadful, dangerous, terror-filled world and not realizing that kids need to be able to take educated risks, make independent decisions and take consequences for their actions."   Jean Walker

Flags Flying in Normandy, France

(Taken by Deb)

No doubt you have become aware of a fairly recent phenomenon called helicopter parenting. According to Dictionary.com, helicopter parenting is defined as “a style of child rearing in which an overprotective mother or father discourages a child's independence by being too involved in the child's life.”

Although helicopter parenting can be observed throughout our culture, it appears to be prevalent among families where the children’s lives are micromanaged by their parents, sometimes even into adulthood. Where do we find such micromanagement of children? Some (not all!) homeschooling circles, legalistic congregations, Gothardites, and others who adhere to a particular formulaic idealism in raising their children. Those who take their parental oversight to an extreme we will call Helicopter Parents on Steroids.

How ironic that Josh Harris, who went from what we consider to be a rigid homeschooling culture to the 'mother' of all discipline-based ministries — Sovereign Grace Ministries (we haven’t forgotten that he lived with the Mahaney family for an entire year) – would recommend an article written by Reb Bradley, a homeschooling dad, who learned firsthand the pitfalls of micromanaging his children’s lives. (link)   

In his excellent article, Solving the Crisis in Homeschooling: Exposing the 7 major blind spots of homeschoolers (link) Bradley explains:

“In the last couple of years, I have heard from multitudes of troubled homeschool parents around the country, a good many of whom were leaders. These parents have graduated their first batch of kids, only to discover that their children didn't turn out the way they thought they would. Many of these children were model homeschoolers while growing up, but sometime after their 18th birthday they began to reveal that they didn’t hold to their parents’ values.

Some of these young people grew up and left home in defiance of their parents. Others got married against their parents' wishes, and still others got involved with drugs, alcohol, and immorality. I have even heard of several exemplary young men who no longer even believe in God. My own adult children have gone through struggles I never guessed they would have faced.

Most of these parents remain stunned by their children’s choices, because they were fully confident their approach to parenting was going to prevent any such rebellion. Some were especially confident, because as teens these kids were only obedient. Needless to say, the dreams of these homeschool parents have crashed, and many other parents want to know what they can do to prevent their own children from following the same course.”

Early in the article Bradley explains that he when his grown children were young, he was overly confident in his approach to parenting, believing that if he trained them "in the way they should go", he would be a success as a parent.  With regard to his own children, Bradley reveals:

“I had wrongly thought them to be exactly like wet clay, me being the potter with total control over what they would become. I was not prepared for their individuality, nor was I ready to see them as fleshly beings. As I watched them each face off with the Lord and have their own struggles with the flesh, like I had when I was their age, my homeschool dreams crashed royally.

After several years of examining what went wrong in our own home and in the homes of so many conscientious parents, God has opened our eyes to a number of critical blind spots common to homeschoolers and other family-minded people. Bev and I still stand behind what we have taught on parenting in the past. However, we urgently add to it the following insights.”

What are those SEVEN BLIND SPOTS identified by Reb Bradley?

1. Self-centered dreams
2. Family as an idol
3. Emphasis on outward form
4. Tendency to judge
5. Over-dependence on authority and control
6. Over-reliance upon sheltering
7. Formulaic parenting breaks down relationship

For a thorough explanation of these blindspots, please consult Bradley’s article at the link provided.

As soon as I read Harris’ post featuring Bradley’s article, I was reminded of a recent comment here at TWW by one of our faithful readers, Evie, who expressed concern about Carolyn Mahaney's apparent micromanagement of her daughter(s).  She posted the following quote by Nicole Whitacre from her article Future Homemakers on the CBMW website.

“As a young woman, I often lay in bed at night and wondered about my future. I stared hard into the darkness, as if God had put the answers there. I had a longing to do great things for God. I imagined myself as a missionary in another country, maybe even a nurse. (I assumed my tendency to faint at the sight of blood would not be a problem.) I had visions of speaking to crowds of women, leading many to the gospel. What I didn't yet understand was that God's plan for me was greater than what my imagination could conjure up. It was also very different than what I thought. How about you? What are your dreams and aspirations for your future? How do you answer the well-meaning adults who ask about your plans after high school?”

Included in Evie's comment was her paraphrase of what she believes Nicole Whitacre was trying to communicate, with excerpts coming from her "Future Homemakers" article.

“I had a longing to do great things for God. I imagined myself as a missionary in another country, maybe even a nurse. I had visions of speaking to crowds of women, leading many to the gospel…I didn’t yet understand…However, Mom did not allow me to remain ignorant for long. Through Scripture, hours of conversations, and helpful books, she presented to me the noble calling of a homemaker and its powerful effect in the world…Mom…taught me of the power of a homemaker’s influence in the world…Through my mother’s training…I finally realized…that God’s plan for me…was very different than what I thought…God’s plan for me was greater than what my imagination could conjure up… what John Angell James calls a “woman’s mission.” Scripture unapologetically sets forth the high priority of the home for each and every woman…this is our clear mission from God…you don’t have to wait until a future day or time to get started on your mission. You can begin today…My mom, Carolyn Mahaney, will tell you how…by answering God’s call…True greatness…to be homemakers.”

We believe Carolyn Mahaney and her husband micromanaged their daughters during their formative years if not beyond.  By Nicole's own admission, she longed to do great things for God as a nurse or missionary.  For clarification we are not being critical of homemaking as a chosen profession. Dee and I have each been homemakers for most of our married lives, and we have loved it! In fact, it is our homemaking profession that makes The Wartburg Watch possible. However, we would never discourage a young lady from pursuing her own dreams and aspirations. This is what greatly concerns us about those whom we describe as helicopter parents on steroids.   

There appears to be a trend in homeschooling circles where girls are expected to become homemakers exclusively when they grow up. The Botkin girls have written about this ad nauseum in their book So Much More (see categories section for our book review). Newsflash! The virtuous woman in the Bible was not restricted to homemaking responsibilities, as some would have you believe. Consider these verses from Proverbs 31: “She considers a field and buys it” (v. 16), “She perceives that her merchandise is profitable.” (v. 18), and “She makes linen garments and sells them; she delivers sashes to the merchant” (v. 24).  Remember, these words were inspired by Almighty God when Biblical patriarchy was in vogue.

Let us be clear. We are NOT feminists. On the contrary, we are conservative Christian women who believe that God allows flexibility in the lives of His children. We place a high priority on the family; however, there are married couples who successfully juggle marriage, careers, and children. For example, some nurses work part-time or on weekends in order to spend the majority of their time with their families. Furthermore, teachers can have schedules that mesh well with family life.  And some women work part-time while their children are in school to keep up their professional skills.

Since we are women, our primary focus has been on young ladies.  We believe it is wrong to train them up to believe that their exclusive calling is homemaking.  We look forward to your input on parents who micromanage their children.  As the quote above indicates, children (both male and female) must learn to take educated risks, make independent decisions, and face the consequences for their actions.  Otherwise, they will not be prepared to face adulthood.  What a shame that micromanaging parents can stifle their children’s dreams and aspirations. May the helicopter parents on steroids learn from the mistakes of those who have come before, lest they repeat them.


Lydia's Corner:       2 Kings 22:3-23:30     Acts 21:37-22:16     Psalm 1:1-6     Proverbs 18:11-12

Comments

Helicopter Parents on Steroids — 124 Comments

  1. “We believe Carolyn Mahaney and her husband micromanaged their daughters during their formative years if not beyond.”

    The Mahaneys do appear to be Wartburg’s favorite target. Why is that?

  2. Excellent post, Deb!

    That “…maybe even a nurse” thing is heartbreaking. Good grief, she just wanted to go to college and learn! Being a nurse – or a computer scientist, or a teacher (in an actual school), or a stockbroker, or an artist – none of that should be kept from girls.

    The whole idea is very depressing; sounds pre-19th century, to be honest. I think one of the crucial things is that girls ought to have a choice – and adult choice, made on their own – to stay home or work or alternate between the two or… (Plus I know a number of young stay-at-home dads who are doing a wonderful job of caring for their small kids + plus running their own businesses from home while their wives work outside – take that, Driscollites!)

    (fwiw, I am a feminist, though definitely a moderate sort… a lot of things about feminism are good, and you and Dee are proof of that. :))

  3. Seneca,

    The Gospel Coalition crowd holds the Mahaneys up as leaders to emulate. Have you heard about their upcoming women’s conference called Here Is Our God?

    Carolyn Mahaney will be addressing thousands of women regarding her views on Biblical Womanhood. We are demonstrating here at TWW that we take issue with her definition of ‘true womanhood’.

    Here Is Our God

  4. Why aren’t you feminists? Equal opportunities for men and women? What’s wrong with that?

  5. I am not a feminist. I am an egalitarian. Every person should have the right to choose a profession (or, as in my case, 3, 4 or 5 over a life time). BTW, we raised our two to make decisions for themselves, teaching them to identify choices they are making, weigh costs and benefits, consequences, and make good plans and choices. Of course, we imposed some of those consequences and costs, and paid some of the benefits. One is widely recognized for her skills with people and organizations, and is an accomplished planner. The other is on the faculty of an Ivy (at 26 years of age) with his Ph.D. in hand.

    I did the Mr. Mom thing when one was three and the other 4 months. Spouse taught school. I started a consulting and newsletter business out of the home. They went to a great Christian day care/preschool when my business began to pick up. I was responsible for getting them to the doctor (including getting a clean catch urine on my then almost 4 y.o. daughter!), dentist, etc. Also did most of the laundry, grocery shopping, 1/2 the cooking or more, and a lot of the housecleaning. All while building a business that eventually employed seven.

    And we were at church every time the doors were open.

    If you want kids to make good decisions when they are adults, you must help them learn when they are 4, 5, 6, 7, etc. years old to make decision for themselves.

  6. How sad that the idea of higher education seems to be considered at cross purposes with homemaking! No matter what career choice I pursue, I want to be a lifelong learner — and I want my children and grandchildren to grasp the concept that knowing everything you can find out about the world God put us in is fun, as well as beneficial to the learner and to those he serves.

    Regardless of your career choice, why would you not want to be well-educated? Makes no sense to me. And, by-the-way, kudos to our blog queens for their multiple degrees.

    Interesting that the public university from which I graduated had a huge School of Home Economics — I’m sure it’s been re-named to sound less antiquated — but people who got four-year degrees in clothing went on to be designers. Those who majored in “Foods” became nutritionists. Some got degrees in Early Childhood Education. And whether or not they used these skills in jobs outside the home, or exclusively for their own benefit inside the home, they received a good, solid higher education that is part and parcel of a four-year degree.

    So, these people want the next generation of wives to be far less educated than their husbands. Sounds like another area in which an unequal yoke can be difficult.

    And, on the practical side — one of these days, your kids are going to grow up and possibly even move away from their father’s home. Many women — this one included — have found the empty nest to be unbearable — but have also found new endeavors that enrich their lives, their bank accounts, and make a difference in society as well.

    Seneca, have you ever had a live encounter — personally, or as part of an audience — with the Mahaneys?

  7. True womanhood should look different every time one of us looks into the mirror.

    It is much more fun sitting around the table with my girls (and boys, too,)and hear the latest adventures while cooking dinner together (or having drinks while the guys do the cooking!)

    Like Dee and Deb, I stayed home with my children and only went back to school when the youngest was ready for school.

    The last thing I want are daughters that are clones of me rather than that for which they were created.

    We don’t have enough knowledge or wisdom to micromanage our children. Additionally, God has given all of us the great git of free will. Who are we to contradict the will of God by forcing a child into a mold.

    Carolyn Mahaney and her cohorts are emotionally and spiritually warping children similarly to what the Chinese did to little girls’ feet a century ago.

  8. Arce
    Thank you for stating a difference between egalitarian and feminism. I believe all families can work this out for themselves and not have the likes of Mark Driscoll or Carolyn Mahaney telling what is proper and what is not. Just look at what CJ has become in his own little world of his making. From what I can tell, that family is not an example of how we should strive to raise our families and what constitutes a good male role model.

  9. Deb
    In protest, I am leaving a dirty dish on my counter this evening. For the uninitiated, Carolyn taught the women that their counters must be clear of everything, including coffee pots etc. Of course, she lived in an enormous house with plenty of cabinetry paid for by her husbands activities. This developed into a semi doctrine at SGM and women were to keep their counters clear are an example of their profound godliness. Just read Evie’s post for insights.

  10. Seneca
    Because they are them and they make it so gosh darn easy. Driscoll runs a close second followed by Ed Young Jr.

  11. Dee – you can’t have any junk drawers! Or keep a toaster or coffeepot on the counter! or have anything on the counter! 😉

  12. “Thank you for stating a difference between egalitarian and feminism.”

    I didn’t see the difference; outside of church, I was taught that this WAS feminism. Is it possible we are using two different words to describe the same thing?

    FWIW I am a happily married college-educated mom of 4 who has worked full-time, part-time, from home, or not at all, depending on the needs of our family.

  13. Carolyn Mahaney would regard me as a total failure as a woman, even though I have been out of the paid workforce for 33 years.
    ** My countertops are never clear — my kitchen isn’t big enough, and, frankly, I don’t care.
    ** i raised my daughter to be her own woman, under God. After 5 years of university, she is living overseas and working as a social worker in child protection. I am SO proud of her.
    ** I hope there might be grandkids in my future, but that is between my children and God. If my son has no kids, if my daughter stays single, that doesn’t mean anyone’s failed.
    ** after my children grew up I went back to college myself Part-time) and got a degree in theology. My daughter and I encouraged each other in our studies, proofread each other’s essays etc. It was fun.
    ** I didn’t try to totally shelter my kids, I tried to teach them responsible decision making (and to think for themselves)I didn’t know I was supposed to make all their decisions for them.

    I wouldn’t last 5 minutes in SGM

  14. I do believe Dee & Deb think of themselves as conservative Christian women but it appears to me, you two represent a more tepid Christianity, formed more by the culture than by Scripture.

    But you are interesting and I envy Dee whose father encouraged debate unlike my father who did not allow debate.

  15. Dee and Deb are taking advantage of their freedom in Christ and are expressing their unique manifestation of being in God’s image and likeness.

    To my palate, that’s hot and I seriously doubt will be spewed from Jesus’ mouth.

    Similarly to Lynne Trait above, I am proud of what my daughters (and sons) have accomplished. Come to think of it, their countertops tend to be clean, but this is the first time my mind has focused upon such a trivial subject.

    Who gives a whit about countertops when she’s in the NICU saving babies lives? Or teaching History to middle schoolers? Or estimating costs for medical centers (or krispy kremes, for that matter) or doing whatever senior Civil Engeering students do? Or kicking serious ass in Robotics competitions?

  16. Years ago I remember PDI proudly stating that they were not focus on the family, but family with a focus. (as they disparaged Focus on the Family-and could tout their play on words as more revelant than Mr Dobson’s.)

    Instead of allowing or acknowledging that God was capable of placing dreams and desires in His children(our own children) that perhaps we should allow them to pursue we were led to believe that homemaking was the greatest call ever for the girls.

    Fortunately, we and a lot of our friends didn’t buy into that mindset and our girls are all educated as they were led…or not. But it was their decision not ours. I guess we come from the mindset that if you marry then you should be able to support yourself and your family if something happens to the husband. Or that you help out with financial expenses in these economic times.

    Even at that time I remember thinking “Why don’t these people allow God to direct what our children should do? Who made them the boss?”

    Also, I remember when my bubble was burst regarding my children when their personalities and ambitions didn’t measure up to my preconceived notions and unrealistic spiritual expectations. I came to the conclusion(messy and difficult sometimes) that I can’t live their lives for them and God wanted me to butt out. He is their all in all—-not me.

  17. Tem,

    Thanks for confirming that the Mahaneys have been promoting homemaking as the noblest profession for women for decades.

  18. Seneca

    If you were to view my life, the stands that I have taken, and my commitment to the faith, etc. you would be forced to eat your words. And I would be very cautious about making assumptions on the depth of a person’s Christian walk due to secondary issues. You should know better. And the pastors who have taught me and influence my life even today are amongst some of the most thoughtful men on the planet.

  19. I WOULD like my countertops to be clean . . . unfortunately, I have a husband and son to look after and countertops tend to get pushed to the bottom of the barrel.

    I had my dreams of being a stay at home Christian mom. I wanted to either homeschool or send my son to Christian school. My ideals got tossed out the window when my son was diagnosed with autism. There are those who say that sending a child to public schools is a form of child abuse. (I have heard that quote from a very prominent talk show host in my hometown.) What those people fail to realize is that sometimes, there IS no other option. I can’t afford private school, and my husband is not supportive of homeschooling–and if I tried it, it would be a question of who would kill the other first, me or my son! 🙂 The law says that my child must be educated. Since I have only three options–public, private or homeschool–and I have ruled out two, that leaves me with only public school. Which, in the annals of some, makes me a child abuser.

    I’m also in court reporting school. I have been ever since 2006. Why? Because I see the need to have enough income to support my son’s needs when he is an adult. We don’t know at this point if he will be able to live on his own. And while he will probably be eligible for Medicare when he turns 18, and for SSI, the reports on finances for Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security are grim. The only way I can see to be able to afford my son’s care if our government programs go bust is to earn enough money to help pay for it. My husband doesn’t make enough money for that and we don’t have rich relatives.

    Also, what happens to the “stay at home wife/mother” crowd if the husband leaves her? Or, if the husband dies suddenly? Or if the husband gets ill and dies young? What do these women do who have been trained all their lives that their highest calling is to be only a homemaker?

    I DO think that homemaking is an art and a skill that can and should be learned, but not at the expense of denying or squelching a talent or skill that a woman has a desire to hone.

  20. Charles Stanley is a big proponent of the traditional family. But he also realizes it doesn’t always happen.

    You see; he was raised by a single mom. When he talks about families he can bring definite real world perspective to the issues.

  21. Tem

    The only noble professions are the ones that God has called you to. And, if the Bible is to be believed, He has called women to many different professions-Deborah, Lydia, Junia, Esther. And in the early church, such martyrs as Perpetua Perhaps she should have remained quietly at home instead of putting herself at risk. I believe she was nursing when she was martyred. Perhaps, instead of causing such trouble, she should have been home cleaning out the junk drawer.

  22. Tina,

    Thanks for your heartfelt comment. First of all, I am fairly sure I know the prominent talk show host to whom you refer, and I am not impressed with him in the least. I would definitely characterize him as a helicopter parent on steroids. I am grateful that the public school system is meeting your son’s needs. Anyone who would dare criticize others for their educational choice is NOT demonstrating the love of Christ and should be ashamed!

    What frustrates me is that there are no cookie-cutter solutions in life. What works well for one family may be the worst possible choice for another. I tried homeschooling for four years when my children were young and decided that a Christian school was the best choice for my children. My older daughter just graduated from UNC, and now she is pursuing her career as an elementary school teacher in the public school system. She is an extremely strong Christian and will be a blessing to her young students.

    May God richly bless you as you seek God’s will for your family and especially for your son.

  23. From my read of Deb’s post, the topic we are discussing is how authoritarian versions of Christianity may repel and stifle rather than embrace and cultivate a child’s personality, gifts and temperament as well as inflame a desire to rebel and “go free”. I did not get the impression that we were discussing Deb and Dee’s enthusiasm for the Lord.

    There are a number of non-Christian and secular beliefs/values accepted within Evangelical Christianity that tend to manifest themselves in Christian’s practical life and they become more pronounced when said Christians are forced to raise children.

    1) Sacred vs. Secular Distinction: For many Evangelicals, the secular world is a scary and dangerous place, especially for their children – and in many ways they’re right. The solution, however, is wrong – build a hermetically sealed culture just the way your pastor tells you.

    2) Determinism: “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it” (Proverbs 22:6, KJV). Evangelicals unfortunately beat themselves with this verse and somehow get the idea there is a guarantee that God will make their children good Christians IF ONLY the parents do a good job. Underneath the Bible verse exterior is a quietly held belief that says, “If I do what God says externally, then he will always always always reward me.”

    3) Behaviorism: The ungodly notion that people are wet clay to be molded. As the above quoted article by Mr. Bradley mentions, this approach is doomed. Most of our education systems operate on this presupposition as well as cultural values like, “You can be whatever you want to be.” A lie we tell our children so they can be sold a dream that has nothing to do with their God-given design and gifts. The pleasure God designed you to feel when you are doing what you were designed to do will never be found in someone else’s dream for your life. Too often we dream up what our children should be and do rather than letting the God-given design already present, emerge.

    Just a few thoughts in this regard. Thank you for your post, Deb.

    Best,
    Matt

    PS – “Whoever loves a quarrel, loves sin…” (Proverbs 17:19, NIV).

    PPS – “Drive out the mocker, and out goes strife; quarrels and insults are ended” (Proverbs 22:10, NIV).

  24. Tina,

    Your story touched me. You sound like a wonderful mom to me–devoted and loving. Your son is blessed to have you. I am an RN and also volunteered 2-3 days a week in my son’s public school when he was younger– mainly with the special needs teacher and her kids, and they sure did get what they needed… and with lots of love, too.

    LOL–I have a large kitchen island that I cannot remember the last time I saw the top of. Thirteen year old son and husband definitely do not obey the Carolyn Mahaney crowd.

    “Also, what happens to the “stay at home wife/mother” crowd if the husband leaves her? Or, if the husband dies suddenly? Or if the husband gets ill and dies young? What do these women do who have been trained all their lives that their highest calling is to be only a homemaker?”

    I wonder the same things and from a different perspective. I have another question. Since the CBMW teaches that men are a women’s spiritual covering, or head, and he leads her in her spiritual growth, etc…and it is her God given role…and she needs her husband to fulfill HER spiritual role… then why would God (who they would claim is Sovereign over all) ever permit or allow (however you wish to say it) a Christian husband to die before his wife? That would not be God’s will, would it? Wouldn’t that screw up in a major way God’s role for a wife? Wouldn’t that be cruel since He (they say) devised this protective spiritual headship thingy in the first place? If the husband is gone, I wonder, does the wife then feel that Christ has left her too? I mean, they teach the husband hears from God for her. I find that so very disturbing…I wonder how they would explain that.

    Dee, Deb, I enjoy reading your site.

  25. Matt,
    I am grateful that you are here. You bring a helpful perspective to the discussion. Thanks for explaining those three belief systems regarding child rearing.

  26. Diane,

    Welcome to TWW! I love how you have been an encouragement to Tina. You are demonstrating for all of us how the body of Christ should interact.

    Great questions regarding male headship and the untimely death of a husband. Dee and I believe CBMW is a divisive organization which is causing much harm to Christians. All we can do is educate our brothers and sisters in Christ about their harmful teachings, which we will continue to do with gusto!

  27. Although I am probably more conservative than Dee and Deb, I totally agree that micromanaging your kids is wrong, wrong, wrong. I have always thought that the majority of people who homeschool their children do it so they can control every aspect of their lives. I am of the opinion that you teach your child right from wrong, and that they need to be exposed (hopefully gently the younger they are) to opportunities to decide whether or not to do right or wrong. I’ve known so many homeschooled kids that went off the deep end as soon as they got some freedom as an adult. And I’ve sadly seen so many homeschooled kids not properly educated because their mothers were ill equipped to teach them. I think it is very wrong of churches to pressure their people to homeschool.

    I do work at a secular higher ed institution, and helicopter parenting is a huge complaint of the faculty. Most of these kids are not from conservative Christian homes…in fact many of them are from wealthy, liberal homes and helicopter parenting is still a major problem. So it isn’t limited to conservative Christians.

  28. Tina,

    I have an autistic son as well. To be honest I’d much rather send my son to a public school with trained professionals in autism than a Christian school that doesn’t have a clue about autism. We always were treated very professionally by the public schools he was enrolled in. I live in a town with a Christian university, but my son goes to the smaller secular college that I work at because I know he will get more help here. Thankfully he’s high functioning academically, but his issues are so great I also have to wonder if he can be independent or not some day.

    You said: “I DO think that homemaking is an art and a skill that can and should be learned, but not at the expense of denying or squelching a talent or skill that a woman has a desire to hone.”

    I couldn’t agree more!

  29. Oops…brackets weren’t a great idea there. I was agreeing with Tina’s statement of:

    I DO think that homemaking is an art and a skill that can and should be learned, but not at the expense of denying or squelching a talent or skill that a woman has a desire to hone.

  30. Dee,

    Is CBMW’s divisiveness the result of a mental problem that can be attributed to demonic possession? Since they are causing division and not unity, can that attribution be made?

    Another inverted dimple.

  31. Seneca said: “I do believe Dee & Deb think of themselves as conservative Christian women but it appears to me, you two represent a more tepid Christianity, formed more by the culture than by Scripture.”

    Seneca,

    I can’t see how anyone could come to that conclusion from reading any of the articles on this blog, including this one. The reason people have reacted negatively to your involvement on this and other blogs is your tendency to make declarations of opinion, often harshly, without any attempt to demonstrate or prove your points. It makes you easy to dismiss.

    If you genuinely cared about Dee and Deb, as a Christian man ought to care for his sisters, rather than thowing out drive by insults, you would respectfully and humbly seek to help them be more of the people God intends them to be. When you make remarks like this one, you only convince others that you are not a caring person. Is that really the message you want to be sending?

  32. Re. the CBMW and widows: imo, nobody thinks very much about widows and what they go through (and not just in the church).

    So many women are left holding the bag – especially so if their husbands were in charge of all financial decisions and the wives never had a chance to learn how to manage things themselves.

    *

    on another, related, note: the CBMW approach is very cruel when it comes to single women (people who have never married, widows, separated and divorced folks).

    Just bad news all ’round.

  33. I am extremely conservative in terms of my religious faith. I believe the Bible. Not the way the Calvinistas and fundegelicals interpret it, but to call them conservative is to demean (pun intended) the word conservative. I believe that the Bible was divinely inspired and is profitable to study as it claims. But I am aware of the history by which the Bible came to us and understand the impact of that history, and of language and cultural issues in interpretation. That means I am not quick to take an English word or phrase in whatever translation and assume that was “dictated” by God to the original writer, whoever and whenever it was.

    I believe the Bible is Truth. Truth in what we can learn about God, about human beings, and about the relationship between God and human beings. Just as Jesus taught in parables (a form of allegory or “preaching story”), so I believe we must treat much of the Bible, especially the early part of Genesis in the same way. I also recognize that the Pentateuch was handed down, copied, destroyed and recreated, most likely during the Babylonian exile, all the more reason to treat it with both respect and care that we not make more of it than it is.

    The pre-exilic history books have much the same history as the Pentateuch, and so should be treated in the same way as the later Pentateuch.

    We know that humans copied the books, including the New Testament, and in the process inserted additional material, perhaps changed some of the words, etc. Again, we must respect the text for what it is and how we have it.

    To me that means we take the Bible as a whole, search for the consistent message and story that pervades the Bible from beginning to end, and apply that story to our lives. The message is that mankind tends to be disobedient to the commands of God, which are best expressed as Jesus set them forth, that God has continually worked in history to redeem humans, that God loved us enough to come in human form and to die as a human, and that if we have faith in his resurrection and accept his grace gift of salvation, our sins will not be held against us in the cosmic scheme of things. The invitation from Jesus is to come, follow him to our own cross, die with him (to self), and witness to him by loving our fellow human beings and seeking to meet their eternal and temporal needs. That is conservative, not liberal.

  34. Hmmm, should I use my invisibility for good, or for evil? Heh heh heh…

    (the original question was in regards to the assertion that you are not feminists)

  35. Like many words, the term “feminist” has been hijacked by people who oppose the idea of women having the same freedom as men and who wish to deny women equality. But they lump all who support equality with the extremists who have no use for the existence of the male gender, that is, who want more rights for women than for men. So, to distinguish, the current usage it that feminists want more for women than men, masculinists want more for men (which is generally still the case in our society), and egalitarians want equality of opportunity, freedom and rights.

    Lesson: When the opponents of an idea define the terms of the debate, they demean (pun intended) the language as a debate tactic.

    CBMW are masculinists, aka male chauvinists.

  36. Taking a quotation from Matt’s post (I don’t think the quote was from a specific person but a generalized opinion from conservative Christiandom.

    Determinism: “Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it” (Proverbs 22:6, KJV). Evangelicals unfortunately beat themselves with this verse and somehow get the idea there is a guarantee that God will make their children good Christians IF ONLY the parents do a good job. Underneath the Bible verse exterior is a quietly held belief that says, “If I do what God says externally, then he will always always always reward me.”

    The problem with these verses is they have been poorly mishandled in the translation process. The term,”Train up,”is more of a seventeenth century northern European male construct than anything that is in the original Hebrew. Train up is Hannuk which means to Dedicate.

    In otherwords the mandate to train up children is more a commitment to dedicate the child and yourself in the way he should go.

    Doesn’t that have a more relational feel to it?

  37. well kudos to josh harris for tweeting the blog…but all this “realization stuff” is just moderating the symptoms of major problems without attacking their roots.

  38. DB

    I agree the verse (Proverbs 22:6) has been poorly handled. Many Evangelicals have a wooden view of Scripture which leads them to ignore nuances such as the one you mention (i.e. various senses or meanings for a word) or they ignore the genre, that is, the type of literature.

    Proverbs, as a book, is unusual. It is not trying to give guarantees or promises. Many Proverbs are situational and are not stating how things are at all times and in all places. In other words, there will be exceptions. Particularly, I might add, in a broken sinful world. Look at Jesus. He was, I think, the wisest, most righteous, compassionate man to ever live and what did it get him? Personal betrayal, false accusations, a kangaroo court and public execution.

    I like your emphasis on the relational aspect of parenting. From some personal experience in the world of fundamentalism I can say what is most important (to them) is establishing authority, not relationship. I have heard it described as the difference between indoctrination and initiation.

    Indoctrination is coercive – the focus is on shaping what thought and external behaviors. Initiation is more personal and built on authentic relationship, where there is a focus on understanding who you are in positive terms (not just pathological terms).

    When we are converted, the Lord initiates us into relationship with Him. We encounter the person of Jesus Christ and we find Him irresistable. Christian parents have a special covenantal opportunity to introduce their children to the person of Jesus Christ.

    The Lord has many riches for us in this area. We must be willing to allow a child’s uniqueness to emerge for the wonder of a person to be known and introduced to Christ in a meaningful way.

  39. Final Anonymous

    I do not recall a question being posed as to whether Deb and Dee are feminists. Deb offered a clarification for readers who may think such a thing.

    The title of the post, “Helicopter Parents on Steroids”, established the topic of hovering, authoritarian Christian parents in my mind.

    Best,
    Matt

  40. Matt
    Thank you. In fact, I hate all of the labels. I prefer to call myself engaged in radical servanthood, both within the body and my family. When we seek to out serve others, I think that many issues become less important.

    I am currently reading a book called, The Family, which documents the history of some present day people involved in what may call dominionism. Back in the 1930s, women were denounced for being feminists because the wore their hair too short. We judge so much on the outside-homeschool, clean counters, etc. But, deep down inside, God does a work that allows each one of us, male or female, to consider others before ourselves. And that can make everyone’s relationships look very, very different yet each of them fit within the sacrificial example of our Lord as Servant.

  41. Radiance

    This whole thing is going to be swept aside as a “misunderstanding” between the pastors-just a little leadership brawl.And major change will not occur within the organization. I think, however, that this problem has prevented others from getting involved with such a messed up group.

  42. I was wondering about the whole feminist thing with CBMW. The funny thing is their posts like Gender Blog and all this other crap they have against feminism is ridic. I thought the other day, why is it that they don’t seek to rid the world of male chauvenism as well? I mean, isn’t that the opposite of feminism? They dont have much of a problem wtih male chauvanism. They aren’t talking about this very REAL issue in the world. Could it be, perhaps, because they, too, are chauvinists?

  43. Dee

    I agree – a prolonged focus on service leaves many seemingly important debates feeling unnecessary.

    You mention the changing definition of feminism in your above comment. So many of our ideas, especially those related to what is feminine, what is masculine, what is feminism, what is chauvinism are cultural. You gave an example from the 1930s where women were denounced as feminists because they wore their hair too short.

    The Church has had a hard time developing a vocabulary for femininity and masculinity outside of what the culture offers. As a result, we have a hard time thinking new thoughts when it comes to women, men and the roles we are to play according to the Scriptures.

    For example, most of the teaching advocating women are to be primarily homemakers and not work outside the home comes from the Industrial Revolution. For the first time, people left the home to earn a living and it just so happened to be the men for the most part. Before this, you (as a family) farmed and/or ran a cottage industry (i.e. making and selling wool/textiles, soap, carving and selling wooden toys, etc.).

    Christians need new ways of thinking about maleness and femaleness so that we can move past the secular world in this area. In order to do this we need to think out loud together. Maleness brings certain strengths to certain situations. Femaleness brings certain strengths to certain situations. Each will have different leadership styles and different ways of getting things done.

    I think Christians are trying to break new ground in this area, but so far we’re not doing a great job.

  44. No Longer Reformed,

    Based on my reserach, the CBMW crowd loves to cast aspersions at the radical feminists, especially on their blog. I’ve been reading there occasionally for several years, and it certainly appears that women who do not embrace complementarianism are dangerous feminists who need to be silenced. That’s just my opinion.

    The newly appointed Chairman of CBMW, Russell Moore, explained in an interview with Mark Dever (several years ago) that he HATES the word “complementarian” and that he prefers the word “patriarchy”.

    Russell Moore on Patriarchy

  45. NLR

    DUH! CBMW is even distorting traditional theology (not only Baptist theology, btw) to support their chauvinism, creating the idea of the Eternal Submission of the Son (ESS) which makes God the Father always over God the Son who is in submission to God the Father. The the Holy Spirit is considered in submission to God the Son, by at least some of them. It is counter scriptural and is a blatant heresy developed to support their exclusivist stand against women in any position of authority or leadership, in the home or anywhere else. It also uses the whole headship thing in Paul’s writings, where head means source not boss, but they use it as boss.

    There is no significant, fairly and reasonably translated scripture to support ESS, and much that contradicts it. So we Baptists have, at the helm of the largest of our seminaries, a blatant heretic.

  46. Matt,

    All of the strengths that are correlated across genders, so the males typically have some more or females typically have more, are not perfectly correlated, so that some females have more than males even though the averages are in the other direction, and vice versa.

    What that means is that there is no a priori reason to deny women from any role (other than father) or men from any role (other than mother), and the mother/father thing is strictly biological — mother means one who bore a child and father means one who donate the sperm. Otherwise, the roles are socially defined and each individual should have the right to define their role as they see it.

    When you get to careers, leading organizations, contributing to decisions, etc., there is no inherent reason for males to be preferred to females or vice versa. Some of the best child care workers are male. I see the best physician I have ever been to and she is fantastic at what she does. Another female friend is a fantastic mechanic, who replaced the transmission in her car one weekend. And, quite frankly, two women are among the top ten preachers I have heard in my life.

    One must proof text and bias the translation to get more than a verse or two that support keeping women out of any position in service to our Lord and his church, and those were entirely context bound in terms of culture or a particular problem in a specific congregation. It helps if you recognize that Paul’s letters were addressed to congregations from which he had heard about problems — think of him as a first century church consultant trying to deal with conflict or failure in the church to which he is writing.

  47. ESS puts me into orbit. It is bad enough to have my gender disparaged but to justify an arrogant smug sort of superioristic attitude by suggesting that God, the Son is in the same position of eternal submission through no fault of His or our own (but, actually, because of His willingness to save our sorry souls,) is beyond something I can discuss civilly. Get rid of the C and W and keep the BM in the middle and that is my opinion of the CBMW on my best day; they are full of fecal matter.

  48. “Of course, she lived in an enormous house with plenty of cabinetry paid for by her husbands activities. ”

    As in “other people’s money” who tithe to SGM churches, buy conference tickets to hear CJ speak and buy his books to know what to believe.

    We could shut this down real quick if people would stop supporting these guys.

  49. Thanks for your responses Arce and Deb. Arce, I see your point, but I’ve wondered in recent years if the idea that feminists “want more rights for women than men” isn’t largely a product of fundy / evangelical fear-mongering. The real-life feminists I’ve known, including college professors and other intellectual thought leaders, want nothing of the kind; in other words, real feminism IS egalitarianism.

    Matt, I did indeed pose questions in my two short comments, thanks.

    Dee, I agree, and should get off my arce (grin) and do some real servanthood right now, but I am a longtime fan of WW and what can I say, eventually you drew me in. ; ) I, too, don’t like labels, but I also don’t want to be forced into a box because of my religious beliefs (not applying the analogy to WW, just the world at large). If feminists aren’t campaigning for the extinction or submission of men, there is nothing wrong with calling ourselves feminists AND Christians. We shouldn’t allow the fear-mongers to make it a dirty word.

  50. This stuff-CBMW, Vision Forum, patriarchy, comp egal,…is all new to me. I have been looking into it since I heard of SGM. I saw CJ Mahaney in an interview in June with 6 other gentlemen and I was amazed at the hyperactive and bizarre attention-seeking behavior he exhibited. Now that I know more about him, I understand that is how he is normally. Since he announced his step down in July, I’ve been learning all I can about this and all the connections these celeb pastors and theologians share. It’s been an education.

    Thanks to you, Deb and Dee, for all the information on this site. I have been sharing it.

    I have been looking a bit at Voddie Baucham (sp) and his eldest daughter. For someone like her, with access to her father’s resourcees, staying at home and training for homemaking is obviously feasable. But when people make statements that this way is “gospel and biblical” and your God given role, as I heard Bruce Ware state in a sermon he gave, then the “haves” get to be biblical because their famiilies can afford to attend to them forever, if need be (if the father never finds a husband good enough for his daughter), and the have nots–what do they do? How do they get to be “biblical” if 2 incomes are needed? But I guess in their (CBMW) minds-2 incomes are never needed? You just sacrifice and struggle–to be biblical. So those that make these “rules” and write the books and speak at conferences (for a fee, of course) have the means to require this… and the rest have burdens placed upon them that these rule makers never experience. Sort of like the Pharisees. Well, exactly like them.

    Sorry for this lengthy comment–needed to voice what I have been learning and figured you, Dee and Deb, would understand.

    I watched Voddie Baucham in a short you tube from a homeschool convention in Oregon in June of this year. It was hurtful to watch because those of us who send our children to the “government school” as he called them, were the recipients of his jokes and judgments while the homeschool crowd was cheering and laughing at how we who do not homwschool evidently just don’t get it. He brought out that Deut 6 teaches we are to homeschool-and was going on about how if one did not see that, then how silly that person is. It was all in fun in his mind, but hurtful to watch.

    I hope to never come across that confident in my belief of something that I would joke in a degrading way about those brothers and sisters in Christ who did not hold to my beliefs.

  51. Arce on Thu, Sep 15 2011 at 02:29 pm
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    Matt,

    All of the strengths that are correlated across genders, so the males typically have some more or females typically have more, are not perfectly correlated, so that some females have more than males even though the averages are in the other direction, and vice versa.

    What that means is that there is no a priori reason to deny women from any role (other than father) or men from any role (other than mother), and the mother/father thing is strictly biological — mother means one who bore a child and father means one who donate the sperm. Otherwise, the roles are socially defined and each individual should have the right to define their role as they see it.

    When you get to careers, leading organizations, contributing to decisions, etc., there is no inherent reason for males to be preferred to females or vice versa. Some of the best child care workers are male. I see the best physician I have ever been to and she is fantastic at what she does. Another female friend is a fantastic mechanic, who replaced the transmission in her car one weekend. And, quite frankly, two women are among the top ten preachers I have heard in my life.

    One must proof text and bias the translation to get more than a verse or two that support keeping women out of any position in service to our Lord and his church, and those were entirely context bound in terms of culture or a particular problem in a specific congregation. It helps if you recognize that Paul’s letters were addressed to congregations from which he had heard about problems — think of him as a first century church consultant trying to deal with conflict or failure in the church to which he is writing.

  52. Regarding Professors, Seminary Presidents, Theologians, Pastors and other churchmen who focus so much energy on making sure everyone knows the Bible says the men are to be the head and the wives are to submit: They just sound like they need to “pull rank” all day long.

    Stop TALKING about it all the time. DO WHAT IT MEANS – serve your wife. I gotta believe, unless a guy marries a difficult personality, if he’s focused on serving and loving, he’s never gonna have to talk about this stuff.

    And for the love of God, if you want to use the term patriarchy then all you’re really interested in doing is alienating people and conjuring up all sorts of negative connotations in your listeners’ minds. This is not the kind of language that is going to help others understand you. It’s not loving. It’s not Christian.

  53. Dee said: “I would be very cautious about making assumptions on the depth of a person’s Christian walk due to secondary issues. You should know better…”

    Seneca, 

    It’s all about attitude & tone.

    We don’t like your’s…

    Ok?

    You’ze can’t shoots da messenger cus ya don’t likez da message.

    Is it gonna suck to be you, in short order?

    Wellllll, Could beeeee…

    Could ya kindly take youz dirty laundry some plaze else, ya hear? It smellz real bad, ya know?

    I hear C.J. Mahaney gotz a’ big ole industrial-front-loader over chiz house!

    hahahahahahahahaha

    Sopy ;~)

  54. Diane,

    The entire cult of stay home wifehood is a very white middle and upper middle-class phenomonon.

    People that didn’t have the means, particularly people of color were never expected to have the luxury of a stay-home wife, their women went out and worked. They worked throughout the ’50’s and ’60’s. They worked in factories during the Victorian era. The good old days with Ozzie and Harriet was a contrived myth for everyone but the privileged.

  55. Seneca, 

    Ya can’t pro-tect da big dog Mahaney, no mo, cuz he’ze simply run outa chain!

    Sweet Jesus!, “come on down” and talk some sense in ta dis here poor soul …for day hurtz demselfz…

    hahahahahahahaha

    Sopy ;~)

  56. DB–

    …and to add, people like my grandmother and great grandmother’s have always cleaned upper-class white people’s homes. My mother started a business that way. She was a professional welder. Now that she’s older, she can’t really crawl into some hole in a ship to weld a boiler, so she’s back to cleaning houses because she has a trade and not a degree. Now, that’s not to say that she could have never gone to college, but my mother has some learning disabilities that would have taken my father to be very supportive and take the helm to provide–which he did not do as well as she. And so therefore, providing for her family was what she chose to focus on the most. She’s very artistic though. She now cleans a mansion of local media billionaires. And although they are conservative white upper-class Christians, they aren’t very much different from the non-Christian upper-class billionaires. They hardly ever resemble the heart of Christ towards my mother and her co-workers.

    Black women have been cleaning the homes of these stay-at-home mom’s for quite some time, like in the movie, The Help. But I think today as more black women are actually college educated professionals, you have more Asians and Latinos doing those jobs.

  57. …either way, much like the times of slavery and indentured servitude, the homes of these upper-middle-class white people didn’t flourish without the economic advantage of having the “help”. Otherwise, they would have been seriously struggling. The other thing that brings to mind is we live in an economy where everyone borrows EVERYTHING to live in life. American’s are severely cash poor–at least most of us. If it weren’t for credit, we woudlnt’ have much and would absolutely be forced to live within our means…like most Nigerians/Africans/other peoples where they pay cash for everything. You build a house. You own it. You buy a car. you own it. You go to college. It’s paid for.

    But these one-income family of the SAHMs who dont use birth control and have as many kids as possible, how is this a sustainable system? How are they going to send all of their children to school, especially to college without being knee deep in loans? And whathappens if the dad dies or looses his job?

    Well, one way to cut that cost is to discourage your daughters from attending college.

  58. When I was at CHBC, there was a reading gropu for Carolyn McCulley’s book, Radical Womanhood. Of course I passed. But some of the women who were reading the book were asking these questions: Should I get a higher education? Should I go to law school? If I am going to be a wife and a mother, why should I have a higher education?

    I knew of a woman who had asked her married friend this important question, to which the friend replied that she didn’t think this woman should attend law school because that would incur debt and she coudl get married and have kids.

    There was also always the general consensus that women should really consider if they need to pursue higher education if they are desiring marriage and family because they will bring unnecessary debt into a marriage. Oftimes, that also translated to making you less desirable for marriage if you had debt because of higher education. And at other times, that translated to you shouldn’t go to school and get the master’s or PhD, and rather leave that room for debt for your future husband who will most likely need that for his schooling (if he didn’t have it already).

  59. Shato

    Could I ask you to elaborate in this statement? “Although I am probably more conservative than Dee and Deb,”- in what context do you mean this? Theologically, socially? For example, some Christians in Dallas thought I was a throwback to the 1950s. Some people in Raleigh think I am a spawn of Satan, plotting the overthrow of the church due to my views on creationism. Many would consider me politically conservative unless they hear my views on reparation to the Native Americans ( I worked on the Navajo Res for a couple of years). How do you pick and choose amongst the issues in order to determine if I am more liberal or conservative? I think if you were to get to know me, you would find me difficult to peg. I have some friends who still don’t get me.

  60. Junkster
    Thank you for your kind response to Seneca. I am quite interested in the areas that he thinks I need to improve in order to be considered “hot for Christ.” (He started it with the tepid statement.)

  61. Numo

    Ca you imagine, some of these guys actually think single women should put themselves under the authority of some family man! How “theological” of them…

  62. (sorry, my thoughts are sporadic)

    As a result this is what happens: You have a significant group of single 30-soemthing BEAUTIFUL women who are confused as sh*t about their future and have NO REAL REASONABLE advice or help to figure it out. Talking about quarterlife crisis in excess! I was there and it was VERY real. It’s like you’re tryinv hard to put the brakes on life and slow it all down becuase (1) the men at church aren’t considering you, (2) you have to think in other creative terms where yrou can meet eligible Christian men, and (3) you had no plans for all this NOT to happen because when you made this decision at age 12/22/25/28, you just KNEW you were going to meet someone at church, get married and have kids like everyone else in your hyper-Calvanista, authoritarian, man-exalting, family-marriage idolatrous “church”.

    Many of these girls are still living in “houses” where two of them might share a bed/room. Yes, a bed. Where does real adulthood come in? And that’s the problem. Because to them, latent puberty is the problem. But to me, what they define as latent puberty is the problem. Just because a guy/gal doesn’t want to marry at 22 doesn’t mean they aren’t shirking responsiblity. And just because a man would rather build a career for himself, doesn’t mean he wants to play the field forever. It means he has goals and is driven. I would love to meet such a man. The guys might not get it as hard as the women, but they do get the backlash if they aren’t pursuing marriage early. Becuse not only do they get to define true manhood and womanhood, they also get to define true masculinity and femininty. The last thing any adult who works every day, pays rent and deals with the responsibilities of one’s adult-like life is to be called a child by people who are supposed to honor and respect you, show you compassion, love and care. Most of them jsut get married and don’t even bother to help you get married. They get lost in honeymoon land. And soon thereafter, they get lost in manclub or mommy club. And then you never see them again.

    The question now is a persistent, nagging, unforgiving sonofab*tch called “Now what?!!!!”

    I know too many beautiful wonderful women, who are smart and intelligent, who are wasting their lives, time and talent on waiting for some guy at church to seek them out. So they have stopped living their lives and are afraid to look too independent or self-sufficient, strong, or determined.

    Yet, they continue to shove down your throat “preparing for marriage.” WHAT?! Are you freaking for real???? Hasn’t it been enough that I have spent the majority of my life preparing for marriage and listening to all your talks on modesty, sex, saving myself, male leadership, authoritarianism…ooops, I meant complementarianism, courtship, and volunteering for childcare??!

    So God wants me to do more? Where is the point where application becomes everything. I mean, you can only prepare so much right? And learn so much? And half this crap will escape your mind the moment you need it because in real life, many of hte situations we face in marriage are unforseen and grab us by the kishkas anyways, right? I refuse to read one more book, take one more class, listen to one more talk about sex or marriage. The fact is that IT AINT MY LIFE! So leave me the hell alone! And when you figure out how to tell me to live the life that I ACTUALLY HAVE, then we can talk, Bub!

    Hmmm… lemme step down off my soapbox/pulpit. I just set it on fire. hahahaha!

  63. Arce

    We must be careful not to allow groups like CBMW “define” what is “Biblical.” if we do not protest, it will become part of “Christian” culture to believe that the Biblical view of women is that they are gullible and easily deceived. I say we question their choice of the word “Biblical” and start the fight there.

  64. DB
    Good thoughts. There is a bit of the name and claim it if we claim that we can “make our kids be good Christians.” Last I checked, the ball was in the court between God and each of them on a one on one basis. So, in this respect, those who deny the prosperity gospel are guilty of employing it in this situation.

  65. I for one would not consider marrying a woman who thought so little of herself that she would not pursue an education and the profession she desired to do. Couples can manage home, children and the education debt if they want to, and make it work out well. My spouse was in grad school when we met and I encouraged her to finish her degree. It did not work out at first, and she went to school later and now has her master’s. In the mean time, she contributed by teaching school. BTW, we choose to live in a working class to lower middle class neighborhood and try to help organize services and help to those who are disabled, elderly, etc., as a service to the community.

  66. Matt
    You said” We must be willing to allow a child’s uniqueness to emerge for the wonder of a person to be known and introduced to Christ in a meaningful way.” So many parents deny their children the ability to explore the world for themselves. They must stay local, they must not be missionaries because I need them close by, the must marry my definition of a successful person, they must go to my church, they must vote the same way as do i, etc. My only prayer is that my kids follow the Christ. If they do that, their way may be hard, but it will be blessed. My way is merely that, my way-not their way.

  67. DB

    How many Christians have you heard get irritated when a poor Christian woman stays home with her kids and accepts food stamps to do so? Suddenly, they are expected to dump the kids in daycare and work.

  68. Dee,

    Not strong enough. They have already defined that word and are abusing the definition as it is. I suggest that we define patriarchy and complementarianism for what it is, the penalty for sin, and therefore calling it Biblical is a HERESY because it makes God the sinner. Of course, by that use of biblical, you could include a lot of things that are in the bible — adultery, rape, child murder, genocide, slavery, trickery, false teachings, prostitution, etc. So being “Biblical” is not a way to a servant life.

  69. NLR

    I know some of those supposed “stay at home” moms who have the help raise the kids. And I see that in the Christian community. These women run from Bible study to Bible study, going out to lunch for “fellowship”. going shopping, etc. Staying at home is one thing they do not do. And there are many, many dedicated women who have cared for both the house and the kids in far more loving fashion that the moms.

  70. NLR

    Look at the Duggars. Those kids do not go to college and they are all home-schooled and they sell themselves on reality tv in order to have the dream house.There is a rather funny web site made up of some disaffected former church goers called Free Jinger named after one of the Duggar girls who they think should make a break for it.

  71. NLT
    Funny story. i know one college that has a Family Studies major which some call the Mrs. degree. When marriage does not happen like intended these young women have to find jobs and most give up and go back to college to have a trade.

  72. NLR

    I have a proposal for you. Could you take this last comment and expand on it and make it post worthy. I would love to have a single’s take on the single’s situation in today’s churches. You have a passion for the subject that might help people to sense the pain and struggle.

  73. Arce

    Did you know that there is a guy who is accepted by many seminaries who preaches a “Biblical” slavery!! I am waiting for him to come to my area. I intend to alert the newspapers and the local African American advocacy groups. These seminaries should hang their heads in shame but he is allowed at some of the usual suspects. Hmm, now that would be a good post.

  74. Dee–

    I will begin working on it this weekend. I have so much to say though. I hope it wouldn’t be too long. Once I finish, I’ll run it by you and see what you think. Thanks for the challenge.

  75. Dee–

    Regarding the MRS degree, that’s what I was in training for. My parents never really pushed this stuff on me. It was the churches I was attending. I never saw it as hyper as CHBC though. They really took it to another level.

    But I am kinda in the same position. I’ve had to consider going back to school and thinking of a career, whereas before, I didn’t think it was going to be necessary. You know, because the church teaches that A+B=C, (A) knowing what the bible says, (b) doing what the Bible says, and (c) you get the favorable outcome you were looking for. For the neo-Reformed-Calvanista crowd that is (a) knowing Biblical living, manhood/womanhood, male leadership, subordination fo women (b) maintaining purity and serving, (c) perfect marriage and kids.

  76. I guess when you have and are suffering because of the effects of bad teaching from the church–the place you ultimately felt God approved of–well, what other emotion is there to feel? Glad? Everyday. Every. Day. I have to face and deal with the load, stress and implications of what this all means for me. The outlook doesn’t look so good. And yes, I am at times very angry.

  77. Dee–

    That’s a different picture than what I see going on here. These girls seem trapped in their homes. They definitely do the Bible studies and lunches, but for the most part, they are stuck home with the kids, cleaning, serving their husbands. Blogging about the marriage experts they are now that they’ve been married 3 weeks-3years, etc… and about perfect tomato patches and dressmaking. while they trade baby clothes, toys, maternity clothing and compete with each other (silently and secretly). Hence, it’s why they feel entitled to have date nights all the tiem with some single girl babysitting for them on Friday night when whe should be out on a date.

  78. “Arce” is not pronounced like “arse”, which is a term referring to the backside below the waste. Figure out another pronunciation and you will approach the truth.

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  80. NLR

    Some women are so competitive because they have nothing else that brings them peace and joy. I still remember my first, born at 4#11oz. She gained enough weight and came back for her f/u visit a week later. A mom holding a boy baby the same age asked me how big she was and I said she was now 5#6oz. She said, My son is 8# 8oz and is the perfect weight. Yours is small,are you worried? I smiled and said “You win” and walked away.

  81. Arce — I was just being silly, poking fun at myself actually. I appreciate the insight in your comments.

  82. Let me take a shot at explaining how I see Wartburg Watch.

    Would a female bishop of the Episcopalian Church ever be offended by the posts?
    I would think they’d be quite comfortable with the Wartburg posts.

  83. Seneca
    Spell it out! I would like you to tell me exactly how I compromise the Scripture and the faith so that I bring a smile to a female bishop in the EC.

  84. There was a lot of so-called preparing for prince charming to arrive sort of sit around and waste your time type of teaching/behavior in our old SGM church.

    In my opinion, the best way to prepare for marriage is to become the best most whole person you can be and not be looking or waiting for a man.

    In fact, if you look at the standard girl archetype (be she sheltered Christian or A-list cheerleader in the dreaded government school,) the typical modus operendi is for the girls to devote far too much time and energy to attracting and holding the attention of the boys.

    At the very same time, what are the guys doing? They’re living their lives, playing ball, taking the challenging classes, etc. Think about the typical cheerleader scenario: the entire purpose of the cheerleader is to encourage the athletes (usually male) the very existance of the cheerleader revolves around the activities of the athlete.

    When a young girl breaks this mold and pursues her interests instead of maintaining an image (or role which is just about the same thing) she suddenly can work on something tangible and satisfying.

    And this oftentimes translates into pursuing a degree with market value a bit above the MRS degree.

    Heck, you never know, you might even get one of those fancy advanced degrees.

    Speaking of which, I present my thesis proposal at 10:00-11:30ish EDT tomorrow (friday) so if you are of the persuasion, say a little prayer I don’t get a case of dry mouth and deer-in-the-headlights.

  85. Seneca-

    Another question to add to Dee’s – Why do you seem to want them to be offended?! They may not view church polity the same as you – but they may well be your sisters in Christ!

  86. Seneca
    I am inclined to say yes especially Mary Glasspool. But, I do not know all of them or even how many they have. Do you know all of them? Could you tell me their view on the Nicene Creed?

  87. Seneca,

    These TWW blog ladies are conservative Christians who work very hard to help those who have been oppressed, misled, mistaught, badly led, abused, and sin sniffed to a fare thee well. They serve a great teaching function, do a little counseling on the side, and are busy about serving God and their fellow man. Nothing about that is particularly liberal.

    And no, the female bishop in the Episcopal church would not find this upsetting. Why? Because these two are serving God’s beloved children, and the Episcopalians are not opposed to those who do that, regardless of their politics, their faith, and their interpretation of the scriptures. They just don’t do THAT.

  88. Bridget2

    I am wondering if Seneca has personal acquaintance with all the female bishops of the EC. That would be fascinating. It must be true for why else would he, a truthful man, deem to speak for all of them?

  89. Arce,

    Those in the Deep South would likely pronounce your name the way I spelled it 🙂

    Thanks for defending our blog ministry to Seneca.

  90. Seneca- if you don’t like this blog why don’t you start your own?

    Oh that’s right you did- but nobody responded

    Maybe you can start one up with Dan

    Love Stangela

  91. I was not speaking up for a weaker sister, but for the value of this blog, and for truth, love, and because the form of the argument Seneca was trying to make is an abuse in and of itself.

    Seneca has just volunteered to be held accountable for everyone who ever fails to express a disagreement with anything he says or does. He has adopted their positions as his own, because he has argued that you should be so held accountable! Good luck living that way Seneca. But then, again, trolls seem to be comfortable shape shifting all the time.

  92. It seems like every arena of life has a few people that give the rest of the group a black eye. I have encountered many so called Helicopter Parents on Steroids, during my 23 years of home schooling. I do believe as parents we are to protect our young from harmful influences, but these people have taken it to a controlling cultish level and shed a bad light on the rest of us. Lack of trust in God is at the root of HPonS parents.

    I have enjoyed reading your blog, sometimes. It is very thought provoking.

    Honestly though, I don’t know why some people have to malign SAHMs or home schoolers. It seems foolish to make such sweeping judgements and comes off as jealous or bitter, they don’t know the sacrifices we made to live on one income.
    I know many African-American, Asian, and Mexican families that have taken responsibility for their children’s education, it is not only for Caucasians.
    BTW, my oldest has a math degree and a Bachelors in EE, we have not paid a dime for college for our two oldest, because of scholarships based on grades NOT income. He is currently employed by HP and will start law school next fall.
    I better stop.
    Thank you

  93. Don’t misinterpret the previous comment. I did not mean to imply that either of you are a weaker sister, either one of you than the other or than anyone, including myself! As I reread it, someone could misinterpret and take offense.

  94. It seems to me that “feminism” provokes the same reaction in lots of evangelical/charismatic circles as psychology and psychiatry. If these people watched vampire movies, they’d be holding up silver crosses at the merest whisper of these words – and probably wearing necklaces of garlic cloves to ward off any evil influences. 😉

    Seriously, “feminist” and “feminism” do NOT mean what a lot of people think they do. Study some history – you won’t have to go far to see that there were dedicated evangelical women in the 19th century who were staunch feminists.

    I expect these people at CBMW to start opining about women having the right to vote before too much time passes… [j/k, but not really]

    For anyone interested in following through on what some call “the cult of domesticity” in the 19th c. (mainly for upper middle class and upper class women in the US and UK), there’s loads of stuff out there. “Separate spheres” is another term worth looking up. Although some might dispute it, there were a lot of books – written by women, for women – published in the 19th c. that tell women to stay home and tend the domestic sphere. (With proper servants, of course.) it’s sickening – like some Gone with the Wind template for life. (You have to know how much I loathe GWTW to really get that one… the racism especially, but the roles of men and women as portrayed in the film are right up there too.)

    *

    NLR: I hear you on the anger. I was furious for several years after being booted from That Church. I don’t mean to say that I was angry all the time, but I was angry – and it was justified. (It was very freeing to discover that!) I don’t know of anyone who’s either come out of a stifling fundagelical background (growing up) or spent time in churches like CHBC and That Church who has avoided the “furious” phase.

    Hang in there; you’ll see the other side of the ocean in due course.

  95. I agree completely with the concerns that have been raised here.

    We have 2 girls. They have attended public school K-4, and an independent private all girls school from 5 to 12.

    The have received the exact OPPOSITE from their school of the type of training described in this post, though they value motherhood and child rearing. Their school encourages young women to think of all sorts of careers.

    We are so glad that we went this route. There are issues and challenges that come along the way, and those are not insignificant.

    I told them recently that I have prayed for them about all the testing and temptation that they have faced along the way. They have told us many times that they are so glad that we did not homeschool them, and they have thanked us for exposing them to all the options they have seen.

    I have never believed in the theory that we can program children. We can influence them, but we cannot control them.

    That’s the way life is.

  96. Let me take a shot at distinguishing feminism from egalitarianism. The former pushes females above males in all things, a though it were a war. They continue to see discrimination in schooling favoring men – in spite of the fact that there are 1.5 women for every man in college today.
    I think the moderators of this forum are much more against totalitarianism of pastors against men OR women. Pastors that think they have authority over their flock rather than being servants of it. Pastors that deny the priesthood of believers and think they are the only way between man and Christ. Chaucer said it well about a good pastor “But first he wrought, and then he taught” (if I remember it right … it was a very long time ago).

  97. Dee –

    Well, I really wouldn’t know why Seneca would deem to speak for all of them!! I could make some assumptions . . . but I think he has taken care of the assumption department for now 🙂

    Thanks for the article. I have parented and schooled certain ways for the wrong reasons myself. God kindly revealed my lack of faith in him to work in my children’s lives, as well as wrong motives on my part. Not so strangely, it has brought great freedom for me to set aside the sinful desires and trust in the One who loves us best of all!

    I am sad to say, though, that I have seen families (parents and children) in real pain when children seem to turn from their faith in God. I’ve seen parents turn their children out of their homes for some not so good reasons IMO and at a time when the children may have really needed their parent’s love the most. Every situation is different, of course, and I wouldn’t pretend to know what was best for another family. That would be between them and God.

    That being said, I have seen parents hurt, bitter, and very angry AT children who wouldn’t walk the walk the way the parents expected. It’s sad that some children grow up in such a “Christian bubble” that it causes some parents to believe that children are redeemed (maybe because they always “obeyed”) but may not really be redeemed. Then when issues or problems arise, the child is treated like an outcast instead of, possibly, an unbeliever. IMHO you should interact with an unbelieving child as you would treat any unbeliever – with a view toward redemption. Instead, you see some parents withdraw and withhold love, grace, and care for their unbelieving child because of the pain the child is causing the family. And I’m not saying that this is not painful for these families. It is very heartbreaking to have unbelieving children. But my desire would be to treat them the way Christ treated me when I was yet a lost soul! This seems to be very difficult for those in the highly controlled and authoritarian environments.

    Matt –

    Really enjoyed and agreed with your three points above; especially the last part of 3 regarding the God-given design and gifts that God has placed in each of us. Loving and caring for our children should look more like helping them to see and develop the God-given design and gifts . . . not set them on a path with a pre-determined (by me) ending . . . because I, of course, know better than God what my five year old should be and do when he grows up (sarcasm). And, come to think of it, controlling every area of my child’s life, until they are married and beyond, will really help build their faith in God and develop a personal relationship with their heavenly Father won’t it? (more sarcasm – because I’ve tried all this myself.)

  98. “I expect these people at CBMW to start opining about women having the right to vote before too much time passes… [j/k, but not really]”

    Don’t know about CBMW but that has already begun… lots of blogs from women in patriarchy bragging about how they voted the way their husbands told them to, or even that they don’t vote at all.

    First they convince women to quit their jobs, then that their daughters don’t need to be educated, then… Talk about a slippery slope.

  99. Final Anonymous,

    Vision Forum/Doug Phillips has been there and done that. Don Venoit of Midwest Christian Outreach has been monitoring the VF crowd and wrote this several years ago:

    Visions of Vision Forum

    “Some of our readers may remember our Journal article Who Will Be First in the Kingdom? which looked at some of the teachings of Vision Forum. In the article, one of the issues we looked at was an article by Brian Abshire which stated that God does not permit women to vote. There was a flurry of activity and a number of threats from Vision Forum regarding the article (these along with our responses are on our blog site under Vision Forum/Patriarchy).

    The Vision Forum article stated:

    American Christians saw the “height” of Christian activism as banning alcohol while at the same time affirming a woman’s right to vote. Both ideas were unmitigated disasters; God has not allowed the civil magistrate to outlaw wine and God does not allow women to vote (cf. 1 Tim 2:11ff).

    Oddly, the original article was removed from Vision Forum’s website sometime in 2008 (but the original July 15, 2005 article is on an archive site). Doug Phillips’ publicly talked about he and his wife Beall voting in the election. It seems this article needed to be taken down, because, as we pointed out in our article and blogs:

    In addition we raised the question of women voting. As we pointed out in our response to Dr. Abshire, in the paragraph immediately preceding the one we quoted we read, “God does not allow women to vote (cf. 1 Tim. 2:11 ff).” Aside from being unable to figure out how 1 Tim. 2:11 supports the claim, wouldn’t that mean that if a woman votes she is doing something that God presently (“does not” is a statement in the present tense) allow? If the assertion is true, then by voting she would be sinning. On the other hand, if she is not sinning than isn’t the assertion false?

    Subsequent to the elections, a subtly revised copy made its appearance on the web. Neither Vision Forum nor the author, Brian Abshire, really addressed the issues but just quietly made changes which permitted Beall Phillips and other women to vote. Did God give Vision Forum or Brian Abshire further revelation? Were they just wrong before and are unable to admit false teaching now? They probably won’t tell us any time soon.”

  100. Stangela

    It is interesting to discover that Seneca appears to be embroiled in a church dispute. Does he respond to people in your church as he does on this blog?It is interesting. At some points he can be almost reasonable. Then, he hurls a zinger like the tepid remark. If we are so gosh darn tepid, then why is he bothering to read our blog? Perhaps he could mosey on over to Sovereign Grace Ministries and listen to their pontifications on how to do church. Maybe he could learn how to abuse and destroy a ministry as effectively as the SGM “theologically very, very, very correct” boys are doing.

  101. Arce
    I understand exactly what you were doing. I know how much you respect women within the context of the faith.

  102. Jamie

    Just so you understand, Deb did homeschool her daughters for a time before placing them in a Christian school where the two of us met and forever changed the face of blogging. 🙂 I have many friends who have home schooled as well. From what I can tell, their kids turn out about the same as other kids from Christian families-be they traditionally educated or not. There is no one corner on the market on how to educate kids. I used to tell people who would tour the school my kids attended that they should find a method of education that does not leave them banging their heads against a wall. That looks different for different families.

    One other point: I also think that, within a family that has several kids, parents may choose to educate each child differently. We tend to put our kids in a box and one size does not fit all. If a child is unhappy, not thriving, whatever, parents should consider other options. I know families who homeschool one kid and put the other in a public high school. Both turned out amazingly well.

  103. Numo
    So many people take words and redefine them. Unfortunately, when they catch on, it does not matter what a word really means, only what the speaker intends it to mean. That is why I am so concerned about the word “Biblical’ or ” Gospel” being placed in front of any secondary or tertiary issue out there. For example-Gospel creationism (YEC) or Biblical gender roles (ESS). This is a way to silence the opposition because who doesn’t want to be Biblical or adhere to the Gospel. Well, I don’t like it and will continue to attack these words being usurped by men who are trying to make secondary issues, primary. I still remember saying the age of the earth is a secondary issue to a former pastor. This man, well-schooled in this current deception said “You think creation is a secondary issue.” I laughed which did not go over well. But that was all his response deserved. It was deceptive and that is not Christian.

  104. Anonymous

    Wee done and well said and good for your choices. It is important that those in the church see how people who choose various roads can have enviable outcomes. I know a couple of homeschooling parents that are very disappointed that their kids turned out so rebellious. (This is not to pick on homeschooling-insert any other method of education). They were convinced they had the formula to guarantee a perfect outcome.They believed that Christian schooling was a compromise and absolutely rejected any form of secular schooling.They were wrong.

  105. Arce
    You have no idea. Now, I, a conservative, am being called tepid. So long as one listens to Piper and Driscoll, one is “good.” Don’t listen to them-most likely a heretic. Wait, I have an idea. I can sell ESV Bible with forged signatures of Piper and Driscoll in case you are hauled up before you church to question your Christian credentials. Show them your Bible-Fire insurance! In the meantime, be preparing your exit strategy so they don’t chase you to your new church.

  106. I am in a church that has a traditional Baptist theology — priesthood of all believers, therefore something akin to a participatory congregational governance, deaconate that is in service not leadership for the congregation. Some, led by some of the staff, tried the church “discipline” thing but targeted the wrong people (faithful members), but the disciplinarians have all left and the staff members involved have left or been pushed out. And as a result, our church appears a little more conservative, but underneath is more open.

    We are very neighborhood mission-oriented. Sponsor a mentorship program at the elementary nearby, involved in neighborhood organizations, meals on wheels (originally started by a NC Baptist deacon and one of HER friends!), a substantial Samaritan fund, plus three overseas mission activities (Ghana, Lebanon and China). And our attendance is less than 300 on Sundays, with a lot of college and graduate students.

  107. Arce on Fri, Sep 16 2011 at 11:34 am
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    I am in a church that has a traditional Baptist theology — priesthood of all believers, therefore something akin to a participatory congregational governance, deaconate that is in service not leadership for the congregation. Some, led by some of the staff, tried the church “discipline” thing but targeted the wrong people (faithful members), but the disciplinarians have all left and the staff members involved have left or been pushed out. And as a result, our church appears a little more conservative, but underneath is more open.

    We are very neighborhood mission-oriented. Sponsor a mentorship program at the elementary nearby, involved in neighborhood organizations, meals on wheels (originally started by a NC Baptist deacon and one of HER friends!), a substantial Samaritan fund, plus three overseas mission activities (Ghana, Lebanon and China). And our attendance is less than 300 on Sundays, with a lot of college and graduate students.

  108. Ann Coulter says women shouldn’t be allowed to vote and that we wouldn’t have the political mess (liberalism) we have today if they weren’t.

    Go ahead, Coulter-haters, flame away. I’m just reporting what she said.

  109. Junkster
    Some of the guys we will be writing about say that husbands should vote for their wives. Ann Coulter is the epitome of snark. I once heard her in a self introspective mood discussing why she says things the way she does. She claims she is mirroring the liberals from a conservative viewpoint. Trouble is-I am not sure many people understand it.. Darn, you got me talking politics. I always get into trouble whenever i talk politics and religion. That is why I usually stick to just religion. I am in enough hot water as it is.

  110. Dee,

    Whew! dem pesky heteromyid rodenti, again?

    You sayz:

    “Perhaps he (Seneca) could mosey on over to Sovereign Grace Ministries and listen to their pontifications on how to do church.”

    and:

    “Maybe he could learn how to abuse and destroy a ministry as effectively as the SGM “theologically very, very, very correct” boys are doing.”

    So sorry…I’ze juz can’t help ma self…

    (ma sides are ak’in…) grin.

    …but do we really wish him on the likes of SGM?

    hahahahahahahaha

    Sopy ;~)

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  112. I found this article very interesting since recently I wrote this…

    http://galatiansfour.blogspot.com/2011/10/oppression-of-youth-and-dominionism_08.html

    I wrote “It’s like the Christian Dominionist world took secular helicopter parenting and raised it a few notches.”

    Maybe given what you have written, they are not getting the passive and blindly obedient to all authority children they desire.

    To even desire that your child be molded that way, denotes selfishness and narcissism, not God’s will.

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