The Independent Fundamental Baptist Church: Jesus Wore Pants, Not a Dress!

"Legalism does not consist in yielding obedience to the law. Rather, it is to seek justification and good standing with God through the merit of works done in obedience to the law – instead of by faith in Christ."              Jerry Bridges

 

 

 

 

Today we are continuing on in our quest to understand, as far as possible, the isolated and puzzling world of the IFB. It is my contention that fundamentalism/legalism is on the rise in many denominations and independent churches. I contend that this is due to a group of Calvinistas who have gained some prominence in the neo-evangelical world. For example, Al Mohler, president of SBTS, the flagship seminary of the SBC, is part of this movement. He is currently dedicated to establishing Young Earth Creationism as the only theologically viable Christian position.

What are the colleges of the IFB? Link

 

  • Arlington Baptist College (Arlington, Texas)
  • Biblical Institute for Theological Preparation (Amman, Jordan)
  • Baptist Bible College (Springfield, Missouri)
  • Boston Baptist College (Boston, Massachusetts)
  • Chesapeake Baptist College (Severn, Maryland)
  • Crown College (Powell, Tennessee)
  • Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary (Allen Park, Michigan)
  • Faith Baptist Bible College (Ankeny, Iowa)
  • Golden State Baptist College (Santa Clara, California)
  • Heartland Baptist Bible College (Oklahoma City, Oklahoma)
  • Hyles-Anderson College (Lake County, Indiana)
  • International Baptist College (Tempe, Arizona)
  • International Bible College (Stony Brook, New York)
  • Louisiana Baptist University (Shreveport, Louisiana)
  • Maranatha Baptist Bible College (Watertown, Wisconsin)
  • Midwestern Baptist College (Pontiac, Michigan)
  • Mountain States Baptist College (Great Falls, Montana)
  • Northland Baptist Bible College (Dunbar, Wisconsin)
  • Pacific Baptist College (Pomona, California)[1]
  • Pensacola Christian College (Pensacola, Florida)
  • Piedmont Baptist College (Winston-Salem, North Carolina)
  • Pillsbury Baptist Bible College (Owatonna, Minnesota)
  • Tabernacle Baptist College (Greenville, South Carolina)
  • Tennessee Temple University (Chattanooga, Tennessee)
  • Texas Baptist College (Longview, Texas)
  • Trinity Baptist College (Jacksonville, Florida)
  • Trinity Valley Baptist Seminary and College (Kennedale, Texas)
  • West Coast Baptist College (Lancaster, California)

 

Why does it matter?
 

One of our readers, Tikatu provided the following insightful comment.
 

"True, they don’t belong to a “convention” and send messengers to a meeting each year. And they don’t make up a “denomination” that has oversight beyond the churches themselves. What they do have is a loose network, usually centered around the universities that teach the preachers.

 

Each of these networks has a slightly different “flavor”. Within the networks they share mission boards, camps, school associations, and quite often each faction is at odds with the others. For example, Bob Jones University people look down on Hyles-Anderson graduates, and Pensacola Christian preachers think poorly of Northland grads. Which is why those who are upset by the 20/20 exposé are accusing it of “painting with a wide brush”. I say that you need a wide brush to hit all the various different factions found in the IFB movement. They wouldn’t lump themselves all together, but looking in from the outside, there’s little difference to be seen."

 

There is a blog dedicated to exposing issues the IFB and other legalistic venues called Fallen From Grace. Link.  Please note the dig at the SBC. Said blogger understands that things are hardly pristine in the SBC and gives testimony to my contention that fundamentalism/legalism is a pox that runs through many denominations. Sadly, this blogger, who was a pastor in this group of churches, is now an atheist

 

“… there is a behind the scenes connection between IFB Churches. While there is no such thing as an IFB denomination, churches do fellowship and unite around a particular college and groups like Bill Gothard, the Sword of the Lord, the Baptist Bible Fellowship, Independent Baptist Fellowship, and the Southwide Baptist Fellowship. (to name a few) They even have their own discussion forum, The Fighting Fundamentalist Forum.

 

Pastors support the college they attended and they tend to support missionaries and ministries associated with their alma mater and whatever particular fellowship group they are a part of. These associations are every bit as denominational as churches associated with the Southern Baptist Convention. (another group that is rife with abuse )

 

If a pastor gets crossways with the college he attended or fellow pastors he fellowships with, he can find himself ostracized and, in some cases, unable to find a church to pastor. (which is one reason IFB pastors start new churches).”

 

What is The Sword of the Lord?

 

This is a publishing house within the IFB. It publishes a newspaper, books and pamphlets. Dr Shelton Smith and two men who were fortunate to marry Smith’s two daughters currently run it. Link.

 

What is the Fighting Fundamentalist Forum? Link

This is an interesting discussion board. There are separate chat rooms for each college, which may indicate that each college has it own distinctives. There is a chat room for men only that appears to concentrate on gun ownership and one for women that had a rip-roaring discussion going on the best chicken spaghetti recipes.

 

Let’s take a look at two groups to understand how these affiliations between churches develop. There are a number of other such groups but I chose these two to demonstrate the points that Tikatu and others are making. Although these quotes are from Wikipedia, one can confirm this history on many IFB sites

 

 

What is Bible Baptist Fellowship? Link

 

“The Baptist Bible Fellowship International (BBFI) is a fellowship of Baptist pastors formed in 1950 by members who separated from the World Baptist Fellowship. BBFI Headquarters are in Springfield, Missouri. In 2004, BBFI reported 4,500 congregations and 1.2 million members in North America, with over 10,000 churches worldwide.[1]

 

Approximately 100 pastors and missionaries were led of God to begin this new Baptist movement that would emphasize a worldwide church planting ministry. They chose Springfield as their headquarters and started the Baptist Bible College, the Baptist Bible Tribune, a clearinghouse for missionary support, and this fellowship of like-minded churches and individuals."

 

What is the World Baptist Fellowship? Link
 

“The Fundamentals was a series of twelve articles defending the 'fundamentals' of the faith, such as the inerrancy of the Bible, the virgin birth of Christ and the literal return of Christ. In 1920 Curtis Lee Laws, a Baptist editor of The Watchman-Examiner, coined the term 'fundamentalist' and defined a fundamentalist as one "ready to do battle royal for the Fundamentals of the faith." J. Frank Norris became a combatant in the fundamentalist/modernist controversy. He edited a paper entitled The Fundamentalist. Both the Southern Baptist Convention and the Baptist General Convention of Texas expelled Norris because of his controversial behavior.

 

Norris, C. P. Staley and others formed the Premillennial Missionary Baptist Fellowship in 1933 at Fort Worth, Texas. In 1938, the name was changed to World Fundamental Baptist Missionary Fellowship and then to World Baptist Fellowship (WBF) after the schism that created the Baptist Bible Fellowship International in 1950. The WBF was again divided in 1984, when a group led by Raymond W. Barber established the Independent Baptist Fellowship International and the Norris Bible Baptist Institute.”

 

Note the following characteristics of these two groups:

  • Both groups established their own colleges.
  • Both have churches affiliated with each group.
  • Both believe that God called them to start these groups even though it involved disunity. One of the groups has experienced a second “schism.”

 

 

Here are some observations of the IFB.

  • Most believe in KJVO Bible.
  • Most share similar views of societal standards such as rules for interpersonal relationships, dress, etc.
  • Most practice extreme separatism.

 

So, what’s the difference. I believe that Tikatu’s comment is most incisive. These groups center around personalities such as preachers, which, by default, implies the colleges that these pastors attended. In other words, their differences are not based on Biblical standards, per se. In fact, this sort of affiliation is not unlike basketball in NC. One supports only one of the following: The Duke Blue Devils, UNC Tarheels, or the NC State Wolfpack.
 

The IFB has churches that affiliate with one another but there does not seem to be much functional difference in the day to day life of these groups and their churches. The most telling testimony to the similarities of all these churches, regardless of affiliation, are in the IFB survivors groups. In TWW’s opinion, survivor’s groups on the internet have done the faithful a great service. Instead of hiding abuse in a dark corner, they shout the pain and the light shines.
 

We highly recommend that you visit the following Facebook group called “Independent Fundamental Baptist (IFB) Cult Survivors (and their Supporters).” Link.

 

The first page included the following information. I did not include all of the examples which can be found at the site.  “If you grew up indoctrinated under the aberrant religious teachings of Bob Jones University, Pensacola Christian College, Hyles Anderson College, or ATI (Bill Gothard) and are no longer "one of them," you understand the need for this group.”

 

“You're familiar with most if not all of the following:
 

  • King James Onlyism
  • The Bible says, 'Touch Not God's Anointed' and that means ME!"
  • “Let me tell you something big boy, you rebel against your parents and you go down across town to that Southern Baptist Church and let me tell you something, you've stepped out of the will of God! You hear me? You just want to hear that mamby, pamby preaching from those preachers who water down the gospel of Jesus Christ and that is nothing more than your rebellious heart crying out in your SIN!"
  • “Billy Graham has done more damage to the cause of Christ than any other man alive! He's a heretic!"
  • "I don't care if she says she was beaten and molested. She's just BITTER!"
  • "Well, good, godly men get accused falsely of molestation all the time now-a-days by people who hate what they stand for."
  • "I don't care if she was 15 and he was 50, she was well known for wearing provocative clothing. And how do we really know who is telling the truth"?
  • "Black people have the 'mark of Cain'."
  • "Any counseling by a professional psychologist is of the devil! I don't care if they claim to be a Christian. If they are licensed and not a part of our group, they are not godly counselors. They are secular humanists ready and waiting to accuse every good man of doing something wrong. They want to see the destruction of the true church!"
  • Your parents inscripted Bible verses in the wooden "rod" they used to beat you with.
  • "Santa is really Satan in disguise!"
  • You were a guy/girl beaten mercilessly in an unlicensed group home.
  • You ran away from one of these group homes.
  • You were one of the girls sent to a group home for "rebellion," but all you really wanted was to simply wear a pair of pants.
  • No mixed swimming.
  • Culottes
  • Chick Tracts

 

You may also fit into the group well if you once attended or were reared/trained under materials available through:
 

  • Bob Jones University (Greenville, SC)
  • Pensacola Christian College (Pensacola, FL)
  • Hyles-Anderson College (Hammond, IN)
  • Advanced Training Institute-Bill Gothard
  • Quiverfull
  • Vision Forum
  • Above Rubies
  • Creation Research Institute
  • The Wilds Christian Camp
  • The Bill Rice Ranch
  • The Roloff Homes
  • No Greater Joy

 

Your spiritual gurus at one time in your life were most likely:
 

  • Bob Jones Jr.
  • John R. Rice
  • Jack Hyles
  • Jack Schaap
  • Bill Gothard
  • Doug Phillips
  • Kent Hovind
  • Michael Pearl
  • Ron Comfort
  • Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar
  • Fred Phelps (Westboro Baptist Church)
  • Or any other man who received a phony doctorate from one of the "colleges/universities" in the IFB.”

 

I love You Tube. Often times, people, not aware of their own weirdness, will post videos that so clearly demonstrate the ridiculousness of their positions. Some folks, like Ed Young Jr., then spend money for lawyers to deep six the videos. Here is a warning to Christians. The Bible says that what you do in the dark will one day be made known. Could it be the Internet is part of God’s plan to expose sin in the church?
 

The following are three videos that this pastor is proudly posting the following videos. Also, read the description of his church as found on the front page of the site. All I can say is…Good night!

 

Faithful Word Baptist Church-Pastor Steven Anderson  Link

 

“We are a local New Testament church reaching the Phoenix area with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Don't expect anything contemporary or liberal. We are an old-fashioned, independent, fundamental, King James Bible only, soul-winning Baptist church.”

 

Comments:

  • Old-fashioned- Are they referring to advocating the use of lard in cooking or the use of outhouses, which build character?
  • Soul-winning Baptist-Is there any other kind? I have yet to meet a Baptist who would cop to “I don’t believe in witnessing, let ‘em burn?”
  • King James Bible only- How do you say "Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani” in King James English?

 

 

Obama is a devil.

 

 

 

Jesus did not wear a dress.

 


 

Billy Graham is the enemy of God.

 

 

 

Lydia's Corner: Joshua 19:1-20:9 Luke 19:28-48 Psalm 88:1-18 Proverbs 13:12-14

 

Comments

The Independent Fundamental Baptist Church: Jesus Wore Pants, Not a Dress! — 42 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee,

    Thanks for sharing those videos. In video #2 the preacher emphatically states that when girls wear pants it’s a sin. Uh oh… According to this so-called man of God, I am sinning because I often wear pants — I especially enjoy my blue jeans and white jeans! Not trading them in for a dress either.


  2. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    This brings up a good question. What DID Jesus wear? A thobe? Which to our eyes, is a lot like a long dress. Good thing my sound is not working because I did not get to hear what this guy said Jesus wore that was not like a dress.

    And I always get a big kick out of the KJV only crowd. They might want to read the long preface written by the KJ translators at Hampton Court.


  3. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I can’t be the only one here, but has anybody else noticed how eerily similar this is to Islamic fundamentalism?


  4. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Actually Jesus probably wore two garments, a tunic (something akin to a shift dress) and a robe. The tunic could be pulled up between the legs and tied around the waste in something that was called “girding up the loins”, which workers would do.


  5. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Here’s someone who has done his homework and takes the preacher in the second video to task. Check out his article entitled “Did Jesus Wear a Dress?”

    http://pursiful.com/2009/06/did-jesus-wear-a-dress/

    He begins with this:

    “Not to put too fine a point on it, but this guy is just making stuff up. There are a few words that ought to be in his vocabulary, but aren’t. One of them, as one of Claude Mariottini’s commentors observed, is “anachronism.” As in, “To assume that people in ancient times had the same sensibilities about what male and female dress should look like is an anachronism.” Three more words (actually, a word and two phrases) that spring to mind are “original languages,” “archeology,” and “Bible dictionary.” “

    And ends with this:

    “The moral of the story? Please do try to learn something about the historical context of the Bible before you make a career of trying to expound upon its message. Otherwise, you’re likely to get caught with your pants down.”

    If you’d like to know what Jesus wore, please read this article!


  6. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    I was not indicating that Jesus wore a shift dress, but that the tunic would look a great deal like a shift dress.


  7. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Arce,

    I knew what you were talking about. How do people tolerate such legalism?


  8. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Ah, Steven Anderson. His church has been listed as a hate site by the Feds (much like Westboro Baptist). Not only does he say that it’s a sin for women to wear pants, he also says that it’s a sin for men to urinate while sitting down. (I kid you not! He’s known in some circles as “the pissing pastor”.)

    You could add to the list of spiritual gurus the other two Drs. Bob Jones. Dr. Bob Jones, Jr. was infamous for calling Betty Ford a slut and telling God to curse Alexander Haig (who would not allow Northern Ireland’s Ian Paisley into the States for Bible Conference). Dr. Bob Jones, III, current chancellor at BJU, was the one who went on Larry King Live to basically repeal the ban on interracial dating (a position that cost the University its tax-exempt status in a Supreme Court decision). He also said there was no real Scriptural basis for the ban – though for years and years previously, he (as had his predecessors) had vehemently preached that there was. (It’s interesting to note that students now have to have their parents’ written permission to date interracially.)

    Muff, you’re not the only one, though IFB congregations would totally disagree with you.


  9. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Oh, there’s another IFB preacher fellowship that you should be aware of: Fundamental Baptist Fellowship International . Interestingly enough, Chuck Phelps, the pastor involved in Tina Anderson’s case, is an officer in this organization.


  10. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “Actually Jesus probably wore two garments, a tunic (something akin to a shift dress) and a robe. The tunic could be pulled up between the legs and tied around the waste in something that was called “girding up the loins”, which workers would do.”

    So, what is the “loin cloth”? I thought that was like 1st Century Underwear for men.

    Muff, I agree with you about this guy. Although I would say the CBMW site sounds more like the Mormons at this point. A lot of what is coming out the SBC these days is Mormonish.


  11. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    thanks for the link on 1st Century fashion. He is right…if you want to see a Scot angry just call his kilt a skirt. :o)


  12. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    First they say they want Jesus in pants. Then they say they hate Godspell. I guess they just can’t be pleased?


  13. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    That pastor is a very insecure person.

    Anyways, way to misunderstand the Bible. Robe != modern bathrobe. Pants weren’t introduced until later, centuries later than Exodus, and not at all used in the Middle East because of the heat. Apparently, the ancient Greeks were introduced to pants from the east, but it never caught on in Greece because they thought pants were ridiculous.


  14. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Interesting post. I agree with most of it.

    I have found in these circles that there are many people and pastors who remain in these churches and either disagree with (or in the case of some of the parishoners) are not exposed to the more extreme views. One in particular – KJV only. That is primarily promoted by a guy named Peter Ruckman, but Hyles Anderson and some others have adopted that.

    You certainly can find some significant disagreements among these groups. Liberty and Thomas Road Baptist Church would feel comfortable in the SBC (Thomas Road is now a member), as would First Baptist Fort Worth (J. Frank Norris’ old church, which is also in the SBC). The Hyles and Bob Jones folks would never do that.

    What is also interesting is that most of these groups (not all, not Bob Jones, for example) came out of the SBC from the 1920s on. Most of the original founders got their seminary education at Southern or Southwestern. For example, Lee Roberson was educated at Southern after attending the Cincinnati Conservatory of Music and Bethel College. I believe that John R. Rice went to Southwestern. He was on staff with Norris and left Norris because he found him to be too extreme.

    When these folks left the SBC, they created their own set of colleges. Liberty seems to have grown, but I don’t keep up. I have no idea about the sustainability of the others.

    Many of these guys hate the SBC. Others do not, but are stuck, in a sense. They went out and started their own schools, have their own missionaries etc., and there is no clean way for them to break from all of that.

    The SBC needs to be concerned if too many of these folks try to return to the SBC at one time. If they do, the SBC will be debating issues like whether to add a dress code article to the Baptist Faith & Message. So far, the churches that have returned have not tried to advance things like that.


  15. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Liberty brought the world the congenital liar: Ergun Caner


  16. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Lydia

    The Liberty Way: Women must shut up and men can lie.


  17. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Anonymous

    I find pockets of the IFB nonsense alive and well in the SBC. I know those who hate Billy Graham, believe pastors are anointed, believe Obama may be the antiChrist, women are to keep silent and many insist on YEC And this in an SBC church that thought of itself as enlightened. So I guess the only thing that is open for the debate is culottes for women.


  18. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee–>”It is my contention that fundamentalism/legalism is on the rise in many denominations and independent churches. I contend that this is due to a group of Calvinistas who have gained some prominence in the neo-evangelical world”>>

    I’ve posted here several times anonymously…guess it’s about time to just put a name with the posts to make it easier on you all. On many things I can agree with you, and on many things I don’t. The funny/strange thing is that I have first hand experience on many of the topics here.

    I disagree with the quote above by Dee. Legalism is far more than the outward stuff practiced by the IFB churches. That’s a part of it, but not the whole picture. It’s easy to point at dress wearing IFB women and go “what legalists!” In fact, anything that I think gains me favor with God is legalism. Have you read Jerry Bridges’ books? (I noticed the quote above) Jerry talks alot about this. If you haven’t read his books, I strongly encourage you to. He talks a lot about the perfomance treadmill and how we tend to think that we aren’t in God’s good graces because we don’t pray enough, or give enough, or parent our children well enough, etc. The price has been paid by Christ…anything we try to add to that is legalism.

    My personal experience with those you would call “Calvinistas” is that they strongly discourage legalism. Having grown up in an IFB church, I feel that it was my time in Reformed churches that really helped me understand that I cannot add anything to God’s grace. (not that I was consciously doing this, but deep down i was) Being in Reformed Churches for me has been the total opposite experience of being in an IFB church. Are some of the Reformed groups perfect? No. Do I agree with the church polity in some of them? No. But I don’t think you should be blaming them for for bringing legalism into other denominations and groups. I think they are strongly teaching against legalism and are very grace based. We are all prone to legalism….you and I are just as legalistic at times as the people in an IFB church. Just in different ways. I know my time in a “Calvinista” church taught me a lot about Freedom in Christ.

    I noticed that Dee said that most IFB churches are KJVO. My experience has been that the IFB churches I have been in prefer the KJV …but I think there’s a difference between preferring the KJV and demanding that it is the only acceptable translation to use ever. I don’t think you’d find that in most IFB churches. At least not the BJU crowd. I’ve had more than one BJU pastor that preferred the ASV. You’ve got to remember despite the idiot that is being used as an example above and in the 20/20 segment, there are a lot of very learned men in the IFB as well. They aren’t going to fall for the KJVO stuff.

    As I’ve gotten older, I’ve learned to try to appreciate the good in things, and not always critisize the bad. I’ve had a very critical spirit at times. The people in most IFB churches are still my brothers and sisters in Christ. (I would not include the Fred Phelps types in this) A lot of them are very lovely, wonderful people who would give you the shirt off their back. I’ve personally heard Chuck Phelps preach, and though it was years ago, I don’t recall hearing anything ridiculously out of place. Yes, he made horrible mistakes that he is being held accountable for. Hopefully he learns from this. I enjoyed the service, I enjoyed the music talent in his church. Some of the congregation are former relatives and some are good friends. I have fond memories of the IFB church I grew up in. Say what you like, but I sure memorized a lot of scripture, loved VBS and summer camps, got to sing in the choir and play the piano, was baptized and got married there. Do I still think they are legalistic? Yes. Do I wish they’d change? Yes. Would I ever go back? Never, unless it was the only church I could get to because I lived out in the middle of Montana or something. (I am not aware of any sexual abuse in the church I grew up in–even asked my mother this the other day and she said she wasn’t aware of any either and my father was a deacon for years so we’d know if there was any coverup or anything)

    I am currently attending a SBC church. I never thought I would in a million years. My experience with the SBC in the past wasn’t bad, but I always felt like the SBC churches I had visited were following a formula. I’ve read about the Ed Youngs and Mac Brunsons and Paige Pattersons. I don’t particularly like that. But as a Christian, it’s my responsibility to find a local church where I feel God wants me–and where I feel the Word of God is being opened faithfully. The first time I went to this SBC church (a conservative one at that) I was like–ok, great sermon…the music is too conservative…this place isn’t for me. I’d go off and visit other churches. Then I’d visit again. The sermons were so on…I’d listen and walk away thinking, wow, I’ve learned something today…boy do I need to change…that helped my unbelief…etc. The pastor is against politics in the church. He doesn’t preach the tithe. He preaches verse by verse. I could have written off a very wonderful church had I listened to just how horrible the SBC is online.

    What am I trying to say? Just that you can’t blame a group for bringing in legalism. It’s already there in each of us. We can be critical of groups, but they all have their strengths and weaknesses. And I can’t help but wonder if attacking the IFB makes us feel more self righteous…which right there is legalism and not so different than the IFB people feeling self-rigtheous because they are “separate” from the world.


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    “But as a Christian, it’s my responsibility to find a local church where I feel God wants me–and where I feel the Word of God is being opened faithfully. The first time I went to this SBC church (a conservative one at that) I was like–ok, great sermon…the music is too conservative…this place isn’t for me. I’d go off and visit other churches. Then I’d visit again. The sermons were so on…I’d listen and walk away thinking, wow, I’ve learned something today…boy do I need to change…that helped my unbelief…etc. The pastor is against politics in the church. He doesn’t preach the tithe. He preaches verse by verse. I could have written off a very wonderful church had I listened to just how horrible the SBC is online. ”

    Shato, The problem I have with your entire comment is that YOU are the church. YOur comment sounds more like church shopping than anything. Until we get out of that institutional mindset, nothing will change. We are to be a Body of believers with every single believer functioning in the Body. And I don’t mean kitchen duty or working the nursery. I am talking about discipling and developing our spiritual gifts. That does not happen in the institution. We pay people to do it for us.


  20. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “And I can’t help but wonder if attacking the IFB makes us feel more self righteous…which right there is legalism and not so different than the IFB people feeling self-rigtheous because they are “separate” from the world.”

    When groups misrepresent the Word and teach things that are simply not so, we have a duty to analyze and show why it is wrong. Your position means we cannot do that. Or perhaps you don’t like the way it is done. Welcome to the club. Many try to make that sin and there is a reason why.

    Let the Word be our truth. But even then, it means little to us personally without the Holy Spirit.


  21. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “The Liberty Way: Women must shut up and men can lie.”

    Caner believes in sacred furniture. :o)

    He said that women could be behind the pulpit if they are cleaning.


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    Shato,

    Thanks for your comment. I appreciate your coming up with a moniker, rather than continuing to post as Anonymous. Hint, hint to other anonymous posters out there.

    Your introductory remarks lead me to believe that you haven’t been reading here very long. The reason I wonder is because you wrote:

    “I disagree with the quote above by Dee. Legalism is far more than the outward stuff practiced by the IFB churches. That’s a part of it, but not the whole picture. It’s easy to point at dress wearing IFB women and go “what legalists!” In fact, anything that I think gains me favor with God is legalism. Have you read Jerry Bridges’ books? (I noticed the quote above) Jerry talks alot about this. If you haven’t read his books, I strongly encourage you to. He talks a lot about the perfomance treadmill and how we tend to think that we aren’t in God’s good graces because we don’t pray enough, or give enough, or parent our children well enough, etc. The price has been paid by Christ…anything we try to add to that is legalism.”

    I’m not sure you understand how much Dee and I are opposed to legalism. Galatians is one of my favorite books of the Bible because Paul condemns legalism. One of the reasons why this blog exists is because both of us strongly believe in Christian liberty.

    It’s interesting that you conclude by saying we are being legalistic in our condemnation of certain IFB practices. No, I can assure you that we don’t feel self-righteous. Believe it or not, we actually hurt deeply for those who have been harmed in Independent Fundamental Baptist Churches (and every other kind of church for that matter). Based on your understanding of legalism, I guess you believe the Apostle Paul was being legalistic when he wrote his letters to various churches like the one in Corinth.

    I do appreciate your chiming in and hope you’ll stick around.


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    Lydia,

    I am not sure how you got “church shopping” from my comment. I guess I didn’t make it clear that I moved and had to find a new church. I normally always stay with the same church until I move. I was in fact trying to say the opposite…that I ended up in a church I wouldn’t normally have even tried because it was SBC. Instead of listening to critics, I went and listened to the pastor. I normally prefer contemporary worship and a more casual atmosphere. I do not stick to denominations when I need to find a new church. I am giving up some of the things that I prefer because I feel that the teaching of God’s Word in this church is exceptional. And the people are kind. Not perfect, and I am sure there are some good ol’ SBC attitudes there in some of the older people, but that’s okay. Maybe a little more grace and diplomacy on my part is something I need to learn in this season of my life anyways.


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    That 2nd video was the most amazing piece of ignorance I have heard in a long time. The whole reason that the priests were instructed to wear thigh length pants (roughly equivalent to a pair of shorts) under their long robes was because they had to mount up steps to make the sacrifices while other people stood below. Well if you’re standing at a lower level and there’s a bit of a breeze, you might look up and see a lot more than you expected. So yes, these underthings were specifically to cover their nakedness.

    I haven’t checked my research. but I always understood from ancient history that the only ancient people to wear trousers were the Scythians — and this was because the men spent a lot of time on horseback


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    Shato

    Please read my post from today. Perhaps it will give you deeper insight into my thoughts.

    There are far too many people who have been hurt over legalism and have left church, and even faith itself.

    I am sure there are people in the IFB who would give us the shirt off their backs. I know Buddhists, atheists etc who would also do the same. Once again, this isn’t about our performance but about the fact that we are all in need of grace because of sin. Those who are on the performance treadmill can never do enough, never appease enough because they will always fail. That is the beauty of the grace of Jesus.

    I believe the IFB has set too many laws that conceal the grace aspect of the faith. And that is very, very dangerous.

    As for the Calvinists in the SBC, they are now defining those of us who disagree on the issue of the age of the earth as throwing the Bible under the bus-Al Mohler. That is offensive and hurtful to someone like myself who loves the Lord and takes the Bible very, very seriously. This is legalism at it’s worse-denigrating those who do not march lockstep with all the little rules. This causes many to walk away from the faith. And trust me, there are lots of people in the world who will treat you kindly and give you the shirt off their backs. I know. I grew up in a non-Christian home and knew lots and lots of kind unsaved people.

    Legalism is as dangerous as atheism. It redefines the faith and can lead the faithful astray.


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    Lydia

    Ergun Caner’s mockery of women and various racial and ethnic groups was offensive. What bothered me were the numbers of people who laughed with him in the audience. Frankly, I would have given him a piece of my mind after such a performance. Too bad someone at Liberty didn’t have the Christian fortitude to do so. Anyone who makes fun of people groups has already demonstrated that there is something very, very wrong inside.


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    Lynne
    I am not sure they allow these “preachers” to study history. They might learn some things that would contradict their theology.


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    Lydia,

    I hate legalism as much as you guys do. I grew up in it and have seen the affects of it on many lives. But I don’t think we need to act as though people in the IFB are idiots. Many are not.

    I totally agree with you that it takes the Holy Spirit to bring people out of that kind of legalism. I’ve always been a thinker, and had no choice about the IFB growing up as it was the only church in the area. As soon as I was on my own, I attended other sorts of churches. I’ve moved around a lot due to the military and jobs, and it’s been a wonderful experience to worship with and learn about other denominations and non-denominational groups. The more I got to see, the more I got tolerant of the gray areas (such as baptism, or preferences on music, etc) and realized that so much of what I had been taught in an IFB church was wrong. I can’t really think of horribly wrong theology that I was taught growing up but can think of a lot of things that weren’t emphasized properly such as the Sovereignty of God or the Grace of God. We all know that the Bible says Saved by grace and live by grace, and IFB churches would agree, but then they actually practice “saved by grace live by works”

    I’m all for talking about the legalistic ways of the IFB, but we need to do it in a loving way. I heard Ravi Zacharias say the other day and I couldn’t agree more Conviction that is not undergirded by love makes the possessor of that conviction obnoxious and the dogma possessed becomes repulsive”.


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    Deb,

    Thanks for the comments. I may stick around, but be prepared that I will disagree with you on some things but I will try to do it nicely 🙂


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    Dee,

    Darn, I just threw out my culottes! Seriously, I wear jeans and a t shirt most Sundays to this rather conservative SBC church. They probably think I am a pauper the way I dress. The fact is, deep down it’s because I had to dress up three times a week for church growing up and I’ll be darned if I am going to do it now!


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    ”We can be critical of groups, but they all have their strengths and weaknesses. And I can’t help but wonder if attacking the IFB makes us feel more self righteous…which right there is legalism and not so different than the IFB people feeling self-rigtheous because they are “separate” from the world.”

    I don’t agree. Groups like the one that was shown on 20/20, and ugly circumstances like that within other groups need to come into the light.

    Part of the definition for self righteous is one that feels morally superior, and shows hypocrisy. lol I’m just a little person in the world, and morally superior I am not! I think when the definition speaks of hypocrisy it tends to speak of a pattern of behavior. When you blend the two? Yikes that is toxic!

    Phelps would NOT have had to be held accountable within the IFB circle – or other places here on earth – if it wasn’t for the man on facebook that decided to speak about what he saw at Trinity.

    Think about that for a minute, and allow it to marinate. It took a secular TV show to expose, because a man of God wasn’t going to.

    Does that mean Phelps can’t preach a sermon? No. Does what he did take away other characteristics about the man that are positive? Hardly.

    I honestly don’t believe that Phelps to this day truly feels he did any wrong for the most part. He has a website up, and even has letter’s from Tina’s mother calling her a lair and gold digger basically. He seems to be hell bent on sticking to his story about how he did report this. The ethical thing to do would be to follow up.

    Children can figure out WHY he didn’t. He states it was consensual. He did his legal obligation, and he washed his hands of it. I mean its not that hard to connect the dots here.

    He barely shows any sense of repentance with the website up, and the way he worded his letters. It drips of a self-righteousness nature, and he tried to make her look as bad as possible…as NICELY worded as possible. He should be ashamed of himself. People see through it. It’s not that hard.

    Then he has a man that raped a girl get in front on his church to be forgiven for adultery.

    Following that you have a teenage girl stand up to tell the church she is with child. She didn’t get to tell people she was raped, and nor was she allowed to tell people whom the father was.

    Let’s think about this for a minute. What is the use of this type of confessional or discipline if you are not telling the whole truth? The whole thing was pointless.

    The congregation got to pray that the marriage is restored, and hope this child turns from her way of being ‘one of those types’. How could they NOT think that the way it was presented. Even if it was ‘consensual’ is it fair that she reaped that alone in front of her church?

    He threw a teenager under the bus – consensual or not – due to the fact he didn’t wish to deal with a scandal within the church. Not on his watch! I’m sure he thanked God the police didn’t show up so he didn’t have to as well.

    If you have read other testimonies when this story came out a year ago? I’m speaking of the people that witnessed this? That church was mad at Tina, and they admit it. They also were sick to their stomachs when they found out Phelps allowed Willis around their children after this.

    I’m NOT talking about those on the TV show. There are many others. The church had a meeting about it, and they basically got told – go along with our program or find another church. The humility in that is just awesome don’t you think? lol! YES I had to throw in some sarcasm!

    Do these types of ‘ahem’ good leaders need to be called out? Yes. Its a bit more than a awful mistake. It was deceitful, and the fact he has yet to own up to it? Sorry but that shows a major character flaw. He is not above the law, or above church policy that he needs to stand up and own his poop like he asks of others.

    He caused major damage to this child’s life. Where was he when he needed to tell her mother to at least SEPARATE from a man that beat the tar out of her son – went to jail for it – then molested another child – went to jail again – because HER children were not SAFE in the house with him! You want to stay married? FINE – have him move back in once those children and grow and out of the house.

    Then he had people basically LIE in church discipline, and then tries to justify himself?

    How many others needed to deal with this, and not be accused of being self righteous when they point out this flaw of judgment. lol seriously! He lied to his church for goodness, and wasn’t the Shepard that God would have him be.

    Those preachers besmirch the IFB, and unless they do something about them? They seriously need to stop complaining. People aren’t stupid, and think ALL churches are like this.

    The Koolaid drinkers were more worried about the IFB’s name in the news compared to what happened to Tina Anderson. Those people need truth about about WHO is more important to GOD! I don’t know how many comments you read about how a TV show besmirched the name of Christ from other koolaid drinkers as well. Strange how they don’t realize the show doesn’t have that power. That’s a PROBLEM!

    If Chuck Phelps actually showed genuine repentance, and owned every last DROP? That would show what Christ would wish to be shown. I think he is to tied up in his own arrogance and pride to see it.

    When he asks others to do what he won’t do himself – get up and confess? That to me is a great example of self righteousness. The fact he has koolaid drinkers are backing him up? That just enables his sin to continue.

    Its very sad. It sets the faith circle he is in up for failure. That man needs to step down, and check his heart. I pray he does not hurt anyone else. He needs someone to hold his feet the fire, because it doesn’t look like he is willing to do this for himself. I don’t see the learning process you spoke of even beginning until that happens.

    People that are unchecked like this maybe great preachers, but they truly HURT the fellowship when their heart and soul are not where God would have it. The bible states that bad characters can take others down with them – does anyone stop to think about that? I pray his church watches him very closely.

    I was very glad to see other IFB leaders speak about the reality of his circumstance is a very graceful, and truthful way. Its sad in all directions.


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    Shato,

    I can assure you that Dee and I enjoy being challenged. We encourage your comments and criticisms because we believe in an open dialogue. I wish I could say the same about the Calvinistas, who seem to have all the answers and rarely allow any feedback. But remember, it’s a two-way street, and we may disagree with you in a robust discussion.


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    Ah, yes, Steven Anderson. Uses the phrase found in the KJV “pisseth against the wall” to mean that men must pee standing up. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RNCoevpt5TE

    He also takes “The word was God” to believe the Bible is God! http://www.youtube.com/user/sanderson1611?blend=9&ob=5#p/search/1/vQ_d6B8vwaQ


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    Just a note. 20/20 does not define IFB. Neither does any particular preacher or college. Most of what I’ve read here is true, and as an IFB preacher’s wife it is truly heartbreaking tuth; but it is not true of IFB. Just as there our many differernt kinds of SBC, there are many different IFB. The words Independent Fundamental Baptist hold significantly different meanings for us than they do for many others. It is not the beliefs of the IFB that are wrong, but rather the stinky attitudes that go with them. From what I have heard, the 20/20 program displayed the worst of IFB, just as the media at one time made all Catholic priests out to be child molesters.
    I think that these wars between denominations are very dangerous, and bring a smile to the devil. I’m NOT saying that we drop our differences and just “get along,” but that we each follow after God “fully persuaded in our own minds.” I was not happy when I read the Sword of the Lord articles blasting the SBC church, and I’m not happy that my sister thinks all IFB are legalist, which is what she has been taught in her SBC church. It is possible to take the strong stands usually held by IFB pastors, and not become legalistic; and there are good SBC churches out there. Each individual will stand before God, and each pastor will give account for how he shepherded the church. Leave it at that. Do what is right, and if at all possible, leave everyone else alone. There is just as much bitterness and aggressiveness in those speaking against IFB, as in the IFB churches they criticize. I can tell you that there is not exactly a lot of love expressed on this page. Meanwhile, there is a lost world who is dying and going to hell. Meanwhile, the devil is rejoicing because churches are doing his work for him! We all need to get over ourselves long enough to think about that.


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    “It is not the beliefs of the IFB that are wrong, but rather the stinky attitudes that go with them”

    Wrong beliefs lead to wrong practice. So doctrine leads to praxis. If people are taught that all are to mutually submit to one another, put others before themselves, etc, you would not have comp doctrine or patriarchy. It simply would not fit. If people were taught that “pastor” is a function within the Body and the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you or if they are taught the truth about NO laity but all believers are ministers in the Holy Priesthood, then people would not be following man instead of Christ and spiritual abuse would not be allowed.

    So, it IS the beliefs that are wrong. Not all act wrongly on wrong beliefs but enough do that we must be vigilant.


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    Lydia,

    I would agree with you that we are all “ministers in the Holy Priesthood,” though I believe the verses which use this phrase are dealing with our personal ministry and worship before the Lord. We no longer need a “man” to go to God for us. BUT to deny the local church, the role of Pastor (Bishop), or Deacon is to ignore a good portion of Paul’s writing. Whatever your doctrinal stand on the universal church or the local church, there is no mistaking that NT churches were local assemblies led by Pastors and Deacons. These people did have authority, under Christ, to organize and “govern” a body of believers. These believers CHOSE their churches, and through that choice could hold a leader accountable. There is a natural checks and balances here. The people did not follow the “man,” but the “man” did have authority (not to mention great responsibility) in the church. I would add here that none of these churches did everything right, but Paul never said, “Oh well, pack up and go home. This church thing just didn’t work.” Also, the Bible warns against heirarchies, such as we see in the Catholic church, which is why many IFB pastors are independent.

    Example of how this can play out: (at risk of opening a whole new can of worms!)

    My pastor, from the church that commissioned us as missionaries (Paul and Barnabas were commissioned in case that bothers someone), does not believe that a man who has remarried after divorce can be a Pastor. He believes that that man can preach, but is disqualified from the “office of a bishop.” We do no necessarily see it the same way, though we respect his point of view. We were in revival services where the preacher, we later discovered, was remarried. His first marriage and divorce were as a lost man. The Holy Spirit moved mightily in these services, and we even had a young man saved (a rare thing here). My husband called our Pastor to get his take on it. His response…”It is between that Pastor and God, and that Pastor and his people. As for me, I have to go by the Bible as best I can; I am accountable to God for obeying what I believe; and therefore I would not have him preach at our church. As for him, I wish him success.”

    You see, in this situation, each is accountable to God for themselves; and a pastor takes additional responsibility for how he shepherds his flock. The remarried man answers to God and his church, my husband answers to God (He does not have to agree with our Pastor.) and our Pastor answers to God and his church (which would include us.) Even though our ministry is “out of” our church, it is not directed by it. Our pastor believes that he can trust my husband to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit, or he would not have commissioned him, and it is O.K. if we respectfully disagree on some things. We are currently helping another missionary, and must also respect his leadership in the church here; BUT we answer only to God for our beliefs.

    Lydia says, “So, it IS the beliefs that are wrong. Not all act wrongly on wrong beliefs but enough do that we must be vigilant.”

    Let me clarify what I meant by “beliefs.” I was primarily refering to “doctrines,” (and our doctrinal statement goes back way before IFB.) I would also include application of these doctrines, which may express themselves in certain standards. (i.e. their is nothing wrong if a lady wears dresses because believes that is the best choice for “modest apparel”) Their is a problem if she believes that this makes her better than someone else or earns her favor with God. This “belief” would be wrong. I agree there are many in IFB who live their lives by wrong beliefs. I am not accountable to them, only to God. I agree it is a serious problem, but do not see that I must change who I am because others have done wrongly. There are women who have been prostitutes, must I give up being a woman? Of course not! The guilty by association thing is very weak.

    If a pastor breaks the law, let society hold him accountable.
    If a pastor breaks God’s law, then let God, his deacons, and his church hold him accountable.
    If a pastor looks to other preachers to set his beliefs and standards, then he is not doing his job.
    If the members blindly follow their undershepherd (Pastor), and fail to follow their Great Shepherd (Jesus), then they are not doing their job.

    No church or pastor will be perfect, and no church member will be perfect, but IF we all kept our focus on God, got our direction from His Word, and served the Lord because “HE IS WORTHY” we wouldn’t have the near the problems we do today.

    My husband is not perfect, but as a preacher, he follows no one but the Lord. He follows the Lord along side with others, respects their beliefs, and when appropriate surrenders to their authority. (If they are going against the Bible, then it would not be appropriate to surrender.) We are IFB because we believe churches should operate Independently, with Christ as the only “Head of the Church,” we believe in the Fundamental truths of the Scripture as best as we understand them (and we believe in studying the Bible so that we will grow in our understanding), and because we believe in the basic doctrines of the Baptist faith. We are appalled by many of the things we see in IFB churches, but they are not us; and we are not accountable for them. We are not “married” to IFB, but the name does mean something to us, and to many others looking for a church. We would give up our “name” only if absolutely necessary (and trust me we have considered that it may come to that.)

    Also, some of the information given on this page is inacurrate, and shows a strong bias against IFB, rather than exposure to the real problems that exist. Likewise, the 20/20 program did not represent even the majority of IFB pastors and churches, yet there will be people who leave good churches in fear of being “sucked in” to the cult-like church that was portrayed. I still say, the devil gets the victory.

    If people blindly follow a man, then it is their choice to do so. There is no law that says they have to go to that church. If a church is teaching in a way that matches the above definition of legalism, then God will hold them accountable. I would recommend avoiding such a church. On the other hand, just because a church teaches things that you don’t like, it does not make them a cult. (And remember, as a fallible human being, you probably don’t have it all right either!) And as referred to in the previous post…

    Romans 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”

    Let us never forget that the real heart of the Bible truly is…

    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotton son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting live.”

    As a result, believer should…

    Deuteronomy 6:5 “And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

    I hope that any who read this are truly trusting in Christ only for Salvation, and are loving the Lord with everything they’ve got. May God pour out his everlasting Mercy and his abundant Grace on us all! God bless you.


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    ” would agree with you that we are all “ministers in the Holy Priesthood,” though I believe the verses which use this phrase are dealing with our personal ministry and worship before the Lord. We no longer need a “man” to go to God for us. BUT to deny the local church, the role of Pastor (Bishop), or Deacon is to ignore a good portion of Paul’s writing. Whatever your doctrinal stand on the universal church or the local church, there is no mistaking that NT churches were local assemblies led by Pastors and Deacons. These people did have authority, under Christ, to organize and “govern” a body of believers. ”

    I do not agree at all. You come from the view of a static structure put into place that wasn’t official at all. If it was, then please list the names of the pastors for each Epistle. The “elders”? Why wasn’t every single Epistle written to these official leaders?

    Do you find it strange that Timothy traveled with Paul all those years planting churches before being sent to Ephesus and STILL had to be told what the qualifications for elders were? How is it the Corinthian church lasted so long without them? And was it not uniform for all the churches in the NT?

    Paul’s goal was for them to be led by the Holy Spirit. There are functions within the Body such as elder, pastor (which is a verb and only mentioned once) but they are FUNCTIONS. Not authority positions. Elders would be the spiritually mature. And we would gravitate to them naturally because of that spiritual maturity. They would be the LAST people to proclaim some sort of earthly authority. They would point you only to Christ and His Word. Not their own authority.

    Your view (which is from traditions of men) is what leads to spiritual abuse because people follow and obey man instead of Christ. They assume a title means godliness. They assume some special sort of anointing.

    And being in the priesthood does mean “ministry”. The eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you. Every believer, if saved, is gifted by the Holy Spirit to minister within the Body of Christ.

    It is a tradition paradigm that is almost impossible to break unless one really studies independently. One of the best explanations I have seen is this:

    http://www.ptmin.org/straight.pdf

    Be a Berean and check out every single thing he says.


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    concernedIFB
    Sorry for the late reply. before I respond, I need to ask you a question. You said “From what I have heard, the 20/20 program displayed the worst of IFB,”. Does this mean you have not seen the 20/20 show. It is available on You Tube. Could you please tell me specifically what was wrong with the show after you have watched it?

    Unlike you, however, I do believe that we need to get along. It is the IFB which stresses separatism which I believe destroys the potential unity of the church. I personally think we should be able to put aside our differences and learn to worship and commune together. You can wear your ladylike dress and I can wear my adorable capris and both of us can worship around the table.

    You said” Each individual will stand before God, and each pastor will give account for how he shepherded the church. Leave it at that. Do what is right, and if at all possible, leave everyone else alone.” Does this mean we should not try to reform the church? Isn’t that what the prophets did? What about the Reformers? What if a pastor is abusing children? What if a church is so legalistic that it is harming the witness for God in the community? What if the pastor is having an affair like many in the IFB, as the SBc have done? Should we sweep it under the rug?

    I know there is a lost world going to hell. What makes you think that I am not doing my part?Can I not write about grievous error and witness at the same time?

    And don’t forget, the devil was rejoicing in the coverup of a rape at an IFB church as well. So, we should ignore that? Have you read Schizophrenic Christianity? How have you been doing in addressing the terrible issues that were raised in that book?Or do we stick our heads in the sand and leave the exposure to secular organizations like 20/20. Wouldn’t it be a hoot if God used the news media to reform the church?


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    Well stated in your response to the IFB person.


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    this guy is a domb-founded manipulative dictator/IFB’er; Jesus wore a robe/garment of some effect, and he was covered not naked because he didn’t have a pair pin=striped dress pants

    i CAN’T BELIEVE SOME OF THESE PEOPLE LIKE THIS GUY, who actually believe Christ was adorned in 21st century fashions.


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    Christ would of tried to come in those IFB church’s but he would of found himself not-fit for their dress standards.


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    Anonymous

    You mean that Jesus didn’t wear polyester pants and button down shirts? And I thought Jesus was conservative!