New Study and Warning on Spanking of One Year Old Children Released

In an Associated Press article reprinted in the News and Observer on Monday, March14,2011, we read: "A study just released in the respected journal, Pediatrics,  found that a surprising number of depressed fathers spank their one year old children. "The researchers said spanking is especially troubling in children who are only 1, because they could get injured and they are 'unlikely to understand the connection between their behavior and subsequent punishment.'" Read the last part again. And so, do Piper, Ezzo and other proponents really feel that sure of their own observations? Could they be in serious error? Once again, TWW is watching churches who teach parents to spank babies very, very carefully.

Comments

New Study and Warning on Spanking of One Year Old Children Released — 57 Comments


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    Corporal Punishment – “Spare the rod…spoil the child?”,

    Evaluating the success of sweden’s corporal punishment ban

    In 1979, Sweden became the first nation to explicitly prohibit all forms of corporal punishment of children by all caretakers in an effort to: (1) alter public attitudes toward this practice; (2) increase early identification of children at risk for abuse; and (3) promote earlier and more supportive intervention to families. The aim of this study was to examine trends over recent decades in these areas to assess the degree to which these goals have been met.

    Results: Public support for corporal punishment has declined, identification of children at risk has increased, child abuse mortality is rare, prosecution rates have remained steady, and social service intervention has become increasingly supportive and preventive.
    Conclusions: The Swedish ban has been highly successful in accomplishing its goals. http://www.sciencedirect.com

    On Hitting Children: A Review of Corporal Punishment in the United States

    Research has clearly demonstrated associations between corporal punishment of children and maladaptive behavior patterns such as aggression and delinquency. Hitting children is an act of violence and a clear violation of children’s human rights. In this article, the position of the United States on corporal punishment of children is discussed. Professional and international progress on ending corporal punishment is explained, and the relationship between corporal punishment and child abuse is discussed. An appeal is made for prevention efforts such as parent education and removal of social sanctions for hitting children that may hold significant promise for preventing child maltreatment. http://www.sciencedirect.com

    Discipline and Compliance

    Reasoning and power assertion are forms of discipline that are most frequently studied by developmental psychologists, with the latter considered the more optimal approach for obtaining compliance. Evidence suggests, however, that parents use a combination of these approaches and that children react differently to each depending on variables such as sex, age, temperament, nature of their noncompliance, and context in which the discipline is delivered (e.g., parental warmth, socioeconomic status). An elaborated approach suggests that compliance is most easily achieved when children accurately perceive their parent’s wishes and when they feel that discipline is fair and their compliance is freely chosen. http://www.sciencedirect.com

    Childrearing, Violent and Nonviolent

    Caregivers act in goal-oriented ways to socialize children who are adapted to their cultural environment. Violent childrearing induces rapid compliance under surveillance. Its costs are counted in greater childhood violence, in problems of adolescent mental health and delinquency, and in adult spousal abuse and mental health problems. There is no clear dividing line between phsyical punishment and child abuse. Nonviolent childrearing methods require greater parental time investment and empathy. Its benefits are better internalization of expectations, better prosocial reasoning, greater empathy and greater social attractiveness. Eighteen contemporary societies have made the transition to legislating against physical punishment of children and others have put major constraints on its use. The United Nations supports the direction to nonviolent childrearing under the aegis of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. The question of the relationship between violence in childrearing and endorsement of violence in international relations is considered. http://www.sciencedirect.com

    Time Magazine

    according to a new report by Human Rights Watch and the American Civil Liberties Union, nearly a quarter of a million children were subjected to corporal punishment in public schools in the U.S. during the 2006-2007 academic year. Based on 202 interviews with parents, students, teachers and administrators, and supplemented with data from the U.S. Department of Education

    Corporal punishment is legal under domestic law in 20 states … Texas paddles the most students in the nation, as well as the most students with disabilities … The total number of students, with and without disabilities, who were subjected to corporal punishment in the 2006-2007 school year was 223,190

    Corporal punishment is banned in most juvenile correction facilities in the U.S., and yet it continues in public schools. The legal paradox can be traced to a 1977 Supreme Court ruling that found the Eighth Amendment only protects convicted criminals from cruel and unusual punishment — not students confined to a classroom.

    Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1915820,00.html#ixzz1H4thOf86

    United Nations

    Corporal punishment of children breaches their fundamental human rights to respect for human dignity and physical integrity. Its legality in almost every state worldwide – in contrast to other forms of inter-personal violence – challenges the universal right to equal protection under the law.

    http://www.endcorporalpunishment.org/pages/frame.html


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    Karlton, I am not distrubed by this study but am a bit curious if this line is misleading as they did not show a before and after comparison. “child abuse mortality is rare.” It would appear they are linking this rarity to the changed law, yet was there any indication of the rates dropping after this law? I am not especially against what they are saying, but leaving out something as important as the before and after comparison is such crap reporting that it makes me a bit mishugana.

    PS. That line, “prosecution rates have remained steady” is another one of those, “What is the author actually saying?” Too many factors. Ugh, i don’t have studies. I hate bad reporting or stilted reporting about the studies. If whoever wrote this wanted to report that abused infant mortality has dropped, then say it. Saying it is rare means nothing in regard to this study. Ugh. Sorry if my rant is annoying to anyone.


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    Opps, didn’t mean to say, “I don’t have studies.” I meant to say, “I don’t hate studies.”


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    Uh…Karlton…the UN’s idea of “human rights” is too funny. Can discuss the rights of women in Islamic countries?


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    It is possible for a couple to raise moral, ethical children, who know how to make good decisions, without corporal punishment. By the time our son was three, he said to me once, “Daddy, don’t make me tell you about choice and consequences. I don’t want to talk about why I did it. Just spank me like other daddies do.” We used a discussion of choices and consequences, coupled with time out for bad choices. Both of our children are bright, moral, ethical people and caring, compassionate adults.

    I can understand an occasional swat on the rear with a hand, but only once a child understands the choice made and consequences of his/her action, after about 3 years of age. Before that the child cannot comprehend it. BTW, a swat on the rear with the parent’s hand does not abuse the child, and must be done calmly. Use of any other tool can be abusive.


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    Arce

    I’m sorry I haven’t answered you. My daughter has been in the hospital and it has been a bit stressful. As always, you make perfect sense. My children got a swat on the behind once or twice after running out into the road when they were about 3.

    However, I found that withdrawal of privileges, when done in a clever way, was one of the most effective means of punishment. For example, when they did not follow though on a commitment-say to clean up their toys, I would not follow up on a a commitment, such as taking the rollerskating. They would whine “You promised.” I then said, Well you promised to clean up your toys and you didn’t.So, why does it upset you when I break my promise?” This sort of punishment is a learning experience and teaches them the value of keeping your word.

    My kids were very well behaved growing up. Not perfect like little robots, mind you, but did very well. It’s kind of like God’s response to me when I screw up. He gives me undeserved grace which I also modeled to my kids. For example, a few times, after poor behavior, I cancelled an event, such as a movie we all wanted to see. Then, I would take them at the last minutes, explaining that God’s mercy and grace was like that as well. However, they could not expect that response.

    Spanking is an easy out. Being clever takes time and thought.


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    Alice Miller dedicated her life to helping abused children in her practice as a psychologist and worked to oppose the “poisonous pedagogies” (or “Black pedagogies) in Europe, a long tradition of aggressive and repressive corporal punishment ideology. She worked with the UN to counter this as well as female circumcision in Africa. I wish she’d have survived a bit longer in order to comment on Lydia Schatz’ death. In her many books, she deals very honorably with Christian teachings that advocate or permit corporal punishment of children. She has many very trenchant things to say that I believe Christians can benefit from, even though I don’t agree with her on many points.

    John Bradshaw recently published a book called “Reclaiming Virtue.” Now 70 years old, he finds himself revisiting his Jesuit upbringing and work as a priest, a much different message and spirit than he’s shown in the past. He dedicates a chapter to the vital importance of parenting (fathering in particular), a chapter he calls, “Were You There When Jesus Spanked the Children?” Among other things, he points out that God went from being Jehovah to Father when Jesus atoned for our sins, changing our relationship to God and to the Old Testament. Bradshaw asks and quotes others who ask that if we no longer stone people, should we also reconsider how readily we employ spanking as well? People treat it as a holy rite or something like a sacrament rather than what can be a life-saving measure (preventing a child from touching a hot stove or running into the street before they have the capacity to understand danger).

    I’m not decrying spanking but am decrying chronic spanking that has become a terrible problem in many homes where it is a tool to beat perfection into an imperfect being. It comes along with doctrines of “first time obedience,” something God does not even demand or require of adults.

    And in response to several recent replies on this blog quoting statistics, here and elsewhere on other threads, I shudder. I immediately think of Jesus’ parable of the good shepherd who loves his one lost lamb (probably one who wandered off). He goes and gets that one lost and loved lamb, leaving 99 others in order to get the one. When statistics are quoted to defend practices and traditions, I always think of this parable. If there is one sheep lost or one sheep suffers, that good shepherd goes after that one little lost one because just one who suffers in harm’s way is one to many.

    If a study showed that 26% of pastors advise a wife to stay with an abuser and suffer harm, then that is 26% too many. If there is just one death due to spanking or child discipline that was well intended but went wrong, that is still one death too many.

    I especially do not understand why addressing the inconsistencies and the problems (the many religious ideas that are either misused or misunderstood and result in abuse) — why is that seen as such a threat to those who believed that they taught the truth.

    When it comes to my attention that something I’ve said or done resulted in harm to someone else, my first response is to show accountability –primarily so that I can understand what I said or did so that harm never comes to another again. We do not see this in our religious leaders, however. We see them respond with blame — blaming the victim, something that others term revictimization.

    One lamb in harm’s way was too many for the good shepherd. Why is that not the first and foremost response of the church as well?

    Arguing that we should readily demonstrate a spirit of forgiveness to those who have done wrong with good intentions does not negate the problem itself and is a separate issue. In a court of law, wrongdoers are found guilty, and it is a separate proceeding that dispenses the penalty. A judge might commute a sentence, but leniency is not shown to the guilty by claiming no fault was committed. I’m all for showing mercy, but mercy must find her love — justice — before they can kiss.

    What do these leaders tell themselves about that one lost sheep? What do they do with the words of Jesus who came and sought them when they were lost and yet sinners? I think that they forget.


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    My other thought this morning after reading on this topic is the rhetorical question for which I have many ready answers. It is our fallen nature but I still ponder the question all the time:

    Why do we so often seek a once-size-fits-all answer for complicated issues? Why do we look to men to give them to us, rather than go about the hard work of deciding (informed by the Word and the Spirit) what it is that God would have us do?


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    Another note: Alice Miller believes that many parents spank their children in a way that is a retaliation against their own parents. Her discourse is not quite that simple, of course.

    Some parents operate out of shame because that is all they know. To deny their own sense of shame, the expect perfection out of their kids. The kids then don’t even get a chance to understand their own moral nature and their own shame because they’ve got the parent’s projected shame through blame and the impossible standards of perfection they can demand from them. So they grow up, and when they have children, they end up in the same place as their parents. Quite often, they do the same things that their parents did. So they repeat the family tradition of chronic spanking, and what the parent is often really doing is unloading their shame on to their kid, as if that’s what the kid if for in that situation. It’s a subtle thing but very real for some.

    May Jesus deliver us from works and the demand for perfection through the alternative: His saving power and the work that He does in our hearts through the Spirit as we learn to flee the works of the flesh.


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    We used time out and removal of privileges, such as TV. (Time out accomplishes some removal of privileges.) Time out predominated until about age 6 or 7 and by 11 of 12 it was all removal of privileges.

    BTW, incarceration of adults is essentially a removal of privileges (and opportunity to re-offend). Our only “corporal” punishment of adults today is execution.


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    “Arguing that we should readily demonstrate a spirit of forgiveness to those who have done wrong with good intentions does not negate the problem itself and is a separate issue. In a court of law, wrongdoers are found guilty, and it is a separate proceeding that dispenses the penalty. A judge might commute a sentence, but leniency is not shown to the guilty by claiming no fault was committed. I’m all for showing mercy, but mercy must find her love — justice — before they can kiss.”

    Well said!


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    Lydia,

    What is it that you find amusing about the UN’s version of “human rights” ?


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    Cindy,

    When saying “May Jesus deliver us from works and the demand for perfection through the alternative: His saving power and the work that He does in our hearts through the Spirit as we learn to flee the works of the flesh.”

    “learning to flee the works of the flesh” would also have to be classified as a “work” wouldn’t you say. I also have a difficult time ascribing anything “wonderful” to Jesus’ sacrifice for our imperfections and saving us from “demand for perfection” when He’s the one that set up that demand in the first place…nothing like having a solution and being the “hero” to a problem that you created in the first place.


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    Karlton,

    God’s character is what demands holiness. Our choice to sin (the fact that he knew it was going to happen doesn’t mean it wasn’t our choice) made a solution necessary. The fact that God’s solution the problem of sin involved his own sacrifice is indeed wonderful.

    On the topic of the post…well somewhat more on the topic of the post…I would be curious as to Dee and Deb’s perspective on Proverb’s encouragement of the use of the rod..not on kids too young to understand obviously…but in general?


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    Joey

    Why is it that we must take the literal reading of every text? Scripture is replete with analogies and metaphors-Jesus as The Rock for example.

    The word “rod” could stand for punishment in general. In other words, we don’t need to whop our kids with an actual rod in order to punish them. We could remove privileges, add chores, demand reparation, etc. I would say that the whole idea behind that proverb is to admonish families not to let their kids get away without consequences.


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    Karlton,

    I’m going to let Paul respond to you on this one, quoting the first part of the chapter of Romans 8, something that comes on the heels of his lament about powerlessness over sin by his own will and desires. I chose the NKJV.

    There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

    A Christian can turn anything in the Christian life into a work, but we were delivered from legalism when Christ fulfilled the Law. Hebrews 10 says that we have the law written on our hearts. Though I certainly fear the living God, with fear and trembling, and I certainly owe him duty and obedience, I serve him out of love and liberty, not because of imposed power and subjugation. I don’t crawl up on God’s lap and cuddle with him like a child does who wants the candy in His pocket. I crawl up there because He loves me and believes in me more than I do myself. I end up being obedient (I aspire so, anyway), but it not out of some culture of obedience but because of the organic virtue of obedience that He gives to me through the power of the Holy Spirit. To that I aspire, and by God’s grace, it is so. That is His gift to me, wholly unmerited on my part, and it is His sovereign work in me to will and do of His good pleasure as I yield to Him. He doesn’t tell us all of the secrets of human agency and how that fits together with His sovereignty, but I know that the stinking sinful flesh that I am apart from the Holy Spirit can’t find its way out of a paper bag without Him.


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    Karlton how could you not find the UN’s version of “human rights” to not be amusing (provided amusing means they are completely hypocritical and it’s so sad it’s funny). For the love of Pete a country (Lybia) who’s leader is currently KILLING his people because they want freedom, sits on the Human Rights council. A country (China) that gets to tell you how many children you can have and then gets to forcibly abort an “unauthorized” one sits on the same council. Need we go on. The UN has become worse than The League of Nations and should be the last group anyone one should listen to with regards to the most trivial of matters. Much less child rearing advice.

    Having said that, I confess to having swatted a few butts over the years and see nothing wrong with it. I live in California and there are many people out here who see any spanking to be a high crime. Of course these are often the same parents who strive to be “friends” with their spoiled holigan children. Giving a kid a beating is a whole different subject and MOST parents know the difference. I’ve also found that after my kids reached the age where we could communicate and reason with them I havn’t spanked in years. The reason, as Dee put it so well in an above comment, was that withholding privileges was SOOOO much more effective. The biggest mistake my kids ever made was telling me how much they liked the Playstation. I suspect that football, cars and going out with their friends (my kids are still young) will prove just as effective as motivators in the future.


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    Most verses in Proverbs that speak of a rod for a fool, is not speaking of children. The fool in OT wisdom literature is almost always referring to an adult who is bankrupt of all morals. So the proverb about a rod on the fools back, has nothing to do with raising children-in my opinion…


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    Joey,

    So God is Holy because someone said that God said that he is holy and this holiness is “required” because the person who said that god said that he is holy also said that this same “holiness” is required to be saved from our “sins”, meaning something that we do which is counter to what that person said that god said he wants us to be like, who, apparently knowing in advance that we cannot be the very thing that he demands of us has, in his infinite wisdom, designed a work around plan.

    What is it for God to be “holy” what exactly does that term mean in the context of God, does it mean “perfection”, well how do we know what constitutes “perfection”…many circles here…

    The “perfection” game is a wonderfully useful construct set up by the writers of scripture. You have been setup to lose from the beginning, for those star trek fans..think of it as the Kobayashi Maru scenario. It has nothing to do with “God’s” perfection or holiness, I could quite easily define my self as “perfect” at which point everyone else would look flawed, cause try as you might no one could be exactly like me. It is a great mechanism to keep people, at least historically, under the church’s control and made to feel lost, broken and in need.


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    Just curious Karlton but what exactly do you believe in? No judgements. Just wondering.


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    Jerry,

    No problems…20 years born again Christian, 25 years atheist. (the short story)


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    Karlton,

    I how did you right that paragraph without confusing yourself? I had to read it twice to follow all the circles 🙂

    My answer is, of course, that if there is a God who actually is perfect and holy then your circles don’t mean anything. You assume that Scripture is a human invention. I think it is pretty clear it is not. So we won’t agree, on those matters..I was just commenting on the comment you made about Jesus saving us from a problem of his own making. Given the assumption that God does exist, and is holy, it was a wonderful solution for us.

    Dee,

    I think it is one thing to argue that the early chapters of Genesis are not a history textbook…but do you really think there is any possible way to justify the position that Proverbs does not encourage the use of the rod?

    Proverbs 23:13-15

    Do not withhold discipline from a child;
    if you punish them with the rod, they will not die.
    14 Punish them with the rod
    and save them from death.

    Proverbs 13:24

    Whoever spares the rod hates their children, but the one who loves their children is careful to discipline them.

    Proverbs 22:15

    Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline will drive it far away.

    I know you probably are familiar with those passages. Proverbs is meant to offer practical wisdom. The language is not vague. He says do not withhold discipline, and then adds in a comment about the rod. In 23:13-15 he repeats himself for emphasis. Punish them with the rod. In that time period, I am pretty sure “punish them with the rod” would mean to any reader “punish them with the rod.”

    I can understand not taking Scripture literally where the author doesn’t mean you to take him literally. But just deciding that Solomon or any author doesn’t mean what he says?

    Or would you acknowledge that the author meant exactly what he sounds like he means, but we can basically get the “heart” of what he is saying and ignore the specifics?


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    Joey,

    I wrote it that way on purpose, my son read it and said “but no one will understand it”, to which I responded, “exactly!”

    Scripture is obviously a human invention unless you just wish to proceed from the assumption it is not. My point above was that the entire concept of sin and the need for redemption doesn’t make any sense unless you make a whole lot of unfounded assumptions first. When you really look at it under a microscope the entire concept is nonsense.


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    Joey, Sorry for the anon – for some reason I wasn’t logged in – K. Kemerait


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    Joey

    I agree that the rod can be interpreted to mean an instrument of pain to whoop your kid into submission. I also think it is the most simple explanation. However, I still believe that the idea behind this was to discipline your child. Can you do this without a rod? Does the Bible say you MUST hurt your child in order to discipline them?

    Do you think that we should stone people who have committed adultery? How about putting to death a child who curses his family? There are many who think we should implement many of the punishments as found in the OT.

    So, let me answer it this way. Stoning was OK in the OT. I think it is most specific just like the rod. Do you advocate for these punishments today?


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    Dee,

    Well, here’s the problem you run into with that line of reasoning….who are you to “interpret”, “soften” or “change” the plain meaning of biblical text, simply because it runs counter to your sensibilities…on what authority can you do this?

    You see, from an atheist’s perspective we see this all the time, Christians want to have their cake and eat it too, they want to profess the bible as the word of a loving, perfect and just God, then when something in there runs counter to their common sense or cultural sensibilities, they want the poetic license to “re-interpret” the meaning in light of our current cultural context, and then without any biblical support they claim that this “reinterpretation” was God’s plan all along in order to reach each generation.

    Please!


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    Karlton, I am curious. (And I hope you know me a bit enough by now to know I am not being snarky but genuinely curious. At least I think I am.)

    When you say what you did in your last post, do you think that you are saying something that others or at least Christians have not thought of before? I hear your argument and I believe you believe it and you may be 100% correct. (Who am I to say for sure?) But sometimes it seems like you are saying, “The sky is blue.” Now maybe your points may be new for some, but they seem so obvious- like, “You see, from an atheist’s perspective we see this all the time, Christians want to have their cake and eat it too, they want to profess the bible as the word of a loving, perfect and just God, then when something in there runs counter to their common sense or cultural sensibilities, they want the poetic license to “re-interpret” the meaning in light of our current cultural context, and then without any biblical support they claim that this “reinterpretation” was God’s plan all along in order to reach each generation” that I am sometimes left perplexed as to why you say it.

    I mean, of course from an atheist’s perspective it seems that way. (And again, I am not bashing anyone for their beliefs and I hope you feel respected enough by me to know this and if not, I am sorry I haven’t communicated my respect for you enough.) But I cannot but help wonder why you state the obvious.

    And again, I am probably not doing a great job of explaining myself here so let me try again.

    I am NOT saying, “Don’t say, ‘from an atheist’s perspective’.” I think it is awesome you give people different perspectives. Viva la difference! And I am not saying that it is not important to include “from (whomever’s) perspective”. This is a vital piece of communication and I admire you for doing it.

    It’s just that sometimes people (my boyfriend for example) state things similar to, “The sky is blue.” And they are not being stupid for stating it. But that very obvious statement says to me that sometimes (not always) there is more they are trying to say and it makes me wonder if this is the case for you.

    As I see (which is limited at best, I get that) you are either merely trying to state things that you think many others are just not saying or there is something more that you are not saying, though you may not be aware you are not saying it. Yeah, I know, that last bit can sound like circular logic (my words are failing me today) but do you get what I am saying? It makes me curious if there is more you are trying to say and I’m wondering what it could be.

    Wow, lots of words just to get to, “What?”


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    I said, “As I see (which is limited at best, I get that) you are either merely trying to state things that you think many others are just not saying or there is something more that you are not saying…”

    Opps, that middle part should read, “you are either merely trying to state things that you think many others are just not SEEING…”


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    Dee,

    I think you are mangling straightforward interpretation because you don’t agree with the Scripture.

    Your example of stoning was clearly a law that applied only to Israel under the Old Covenant. It was specifically overturned by Jesus in John 8 and many similar laws were demolished in the New Testament.

    Proverbs was written (in very large part) by a man blessed by God with wisdom. It was mean to impart wisdom for living. That is the point of the book. It wasn’t establishing laws or anything like that…it was written to give practical and godly wisdom.

    So your stoning example doesn’t really work.

    I think your view of “the rod” is such that you can’t accept the plain reading of Proverbs. My experience, as a child who was lovingly disciplined by my parents, makes it easy to read Proverbs exactly as it is meant to be read.

    Spanking, of course, can be done in an abusive way. Like most anything, this good thing (the correction and instruction of a child) can be twisted into something God did not intend. But our response should not be to correct what God says. It should be to actually do what he says, how he says to do it. It should be done in such a way as the child sees it as evidence of his parents love…like the example given of crossing the street without looking…the child should understand (1) Discipline is painful because (2) It is for my correction, instruction, and ultimately protection because (3) I am loved.

    Discipline that isn’t painful (physically or not) doesn’t make any sense. When I was a kid, not taking me to a movie didn’t hurt. Putting me in time out certainly wouldn’t have hurt.

    ““My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,
    and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,
    6 because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
    and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”[a]

    7 Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not disciplined by their father? 8 If you are not disciplined—and everyone undergoes discipline—then you are not legitimate, not true sons and daughters at all. 9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of spirits and live! 10 They disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but God disciplines us for our good, in order that we may share in his holiness. 11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it.”


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    Joey, I’m not really sure where I stand in this whole discussion, except for the fact that I don’t think it’s cool to say why people do what they do. (OK, so maybe we can say that Hitler wanted power but…)

    So reading, “I think you are mangling straightforward interpretation because you don’t agree with the Scripture” doesn’t make me all that comfortable. Is it really possible to take one thing someone says and write that we know their heart or the whys of why they do things?

    And yes, I would appreciate it if you remind me of these very words because I do indeed write the same way you just did and I know I will continue to in spite of my insistence right now that it is wrong to do so.


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    Stunned,

    No offense taken 🙂

    You are absolutely correct and I am glad to see that you too find it obvious. The reason for my stating it, is that it seems that it is not as obvious as you or I think it is, otherwise, I would think, that people would stop trying to re-interpret what God supposedly said, especially in the light of the fact, that these same people claim that God is both Loving and Perfect, you would then that he would be capable of communicating without the need for a “cultural interpreter”, and yet…here we are…one post after another helping God “defend himself” by putting a different “spin” on what was plainly said. I’d just like a little consistency. It is this lack of consistency that makes it impossible for atheists to have an intelligent discussion or debate, if you will, the goalposts keeping moving.

    I don’t even have an objection to saying that parts of the Bible are meant to be taken literally and other parts are allegorical but can we please state up front which is which and stick to it. From my perspective, as you know, I can’t see how anyone can look at the personality of God as revealed in the OT and come to the conclusion that He is loving and just unless you just magically assign him those qualities and then run around trying to “explain” all the apparent problems with that assumption, which is exactly what it seems like Christians spend their time doing…. someone please explain this to me.

    I mean, I was a Christian too, and so to some extent I DO understand, and yet, now that I have an outsider’s view I find it difficult to even understand how I did it for so long.


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    Stunned,

    You are absolutely right, Dee I apologize. That sentence did reflect a judgment on my part that I have no way of knowing.


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    Joey,

    Actually your reference to John 8 is incorrect. If you look closely Jesus never actually answered the Pharisee’s question about stoning, he just told them that “whoever is without sin let him cast the first stone”.

    Even looking at versus like “love is the fulfillment of the law”, it can be understood in more than one way, the common way is to say that the law of love supersedes the mosaic law, but another equally valid way to look at it, is that IF you love, then you will be fulfilling the law. Not that the law disappears but rather that by focusing on love you will indeed ALSO find yourself in compliance with the law.

    In addition when we talk about stoning … this was a civil punishment received for an offense. I don’t think, regardless how much of a dispensationalist you are, that you can make the case the Jesus was telling these people that you can live without any type of civil code, laws or punishments

    Since everyone else seems to like to interpret I thought I’d try my hand at it too.


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    K-Man, I’m so glad no offense was taken!

    I agree with much of what you said. Some of your post made me smile. Though, I don’t think that change or shift of opinion means that logic is off. As you well know, someone can change their mind on certain matters without logic not being served. So as people for a time believe one thing in the bible is literal, later on they may come to think of certain parts as more figurative. Doesn’t mean they are being illogical. Merely that they have changed. Therefore nailing down or getting all Christians to nail down which parts are literal and which figurative is…. illogical? Too much shifting. And who is to say who is right and wrong?

    I am sure (well, relatively sure—- hopeful?) that you would agree that for a time one verse or proverb or wisdom of old could be useful for a person as they are working but for a different period of their life it coudl be healthy for them to see the same bit of wisdom from a different angle and see something entirely different. Does it mean one is wrong, either the before or after person? No, just different things.

    Now, i don’t think that that is fully what you are saying. I suspect what you were saying is that at one period in time at any given moment you would like at least ONE person who professes Christianity to be able to have a discussion regarding literal/figurative with you without moving the goalposts. (Great word picture, btw.)

    I spend too much time saying (in the least intelligable way possible) “Mmm, m, m” while shrugging my shoulders. Which means, “I don’ know” about most matters of God. Is this because debate bores me (in spite of all evidence to the contrary)? Is it because I think it is silly to try to pin down some enormous, just can’t stuff him into the box no matter how hard I try God? Is it because I am making all of this up in my mind? (and man, if that is the case, after I die and find out there is no more, man am I going to be PISSED!) Mmm, m, m. *shrug*

    I don’t for one cotton pickin’ minute think that I could begin to understand God. None of him. I actually think it’s laughable that anyone thinks they can or does. And no, I don’t think he can be reasoned or understood. And I respect that for a variety of reasons you don’t think he/she/it exists. (I think God is a lot bigger than the box of gender/not gender pronouns, but who cares?) But for me, I can’t help shake this sense that this God who I can’t figure out no matter how much I try, exists and somehow and for some odd reason cares for me. (Who knows, maybe a cruel science experiment like the way a mad scientist who keeps animals to teach students what they are like?) Thing is, just because he doesn’t make sense to me, doesn’t mean for me that he doesn’t exist. Heck, if that were my logic, time didn’t exist until 1975. (For the life of me I couldn’t tell time until fifth grade.) Oh, and keeping to that logic, for me, cars do not run and planes do not fly, ’cause I couldn’t begin to tell you how they work, either. (Not so much for lack of intellect but I just can’t be arsed to bother finding out. 😉 )

    For me God is outside of my ability to understand (just like American Idol and men) but as hard as I have tried to shake it in the past, I can’t help but be aware that there is something there that I can’t explain. And that it’s something personal. And I think it loves me, though some days I wonder if it’s looking for ways to kick me in the teeth. Though most days I think that this being loves me for whatever strange reason. I can’t seem to shake that sense. And I have learned more and more (and I believe scientists after years of studying are just beginning to find) that sometimes that sense is stronger than logic or the current limited knowledge of man.

    Go ahead and say it sounds idiotic. I agree. Doesn’t mean that just becasue I think something sounds idiotic, it means it is, though. It just means that my ability to understand or reason is limited. Which I am guessing everyone’s is to a certain extent.


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    Joey, now you have to promise to remind me when I do it. Which happens all the time. I am SURE I can tell you what the jerk who was tailgating me yesterday was thinking.


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    You know, I remember doing research on what was meant by “rod” years ago and being a bit surprised. I cannot remember exactly what it was but it was not what WE would think of a ‘rod’.

    And thanks Joey, for what you said about proverbs. I always keep in mind it was written by a guy with 600 wives and concubines.

    BTW: Joey, most of what we are discussing is spanking BABIES. I have spanked and so did my parents. but it is very directed, very clear and not in anger. So, a child has to be old enough to understand. In fact, we should only spank with tears in our eyes.


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    Lydia said, “And thanks Joey, for what you said about proverbs. I always keep in mind it was written by a guy with 600 wives and concubines.”

    ha ha ha ha. I had never thought of it that way before. 😀


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    Stunned,

    Sure thing.

    Lydia,

    You are right, we should dismiss Proverbs as the Word of God because it was written by a man who sinned…also, by that same token, I guess we should throw out the whole thing, and Karlton wins!

    Seriously though, the fact that Solomon, for all of his wisdom, fell into the same temptations and sins he warned against so eloquently is sobering. But David was a murderer and the Psalms are still Scripture.

    Karlton,

    My reference to John 8 was applicable I think, because it directly involved stoning and adultery, which Dee had brought up, and Jesus response not to apply the Levitcal law, but to show mercy. This is because Jesus fulfilled the law so that we don’t have to…as Paul says, quite specifically:

    “So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh,[c] the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.”

    Obviously this does not dismiss the need for civil and moral laws altogether, but it does release us from adherence to the specifics of Israel’s Old Covenant code.

    John 8 was one example where the ceremonial/civil laws of Old Testemant Israel were dismissed. (And could be legitimately, as Christ was fulfilling the law, for us, freeing us to live by grace). As opposed to Proverbs, which is wisdom literature, and would need some other reason to be dismissed. That was my point, and I think it still stands.


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    Oh and Lydia,

    I agree with the clear, directed, never in anger comment…and the sentiment behind the tears in the eyes part 🙂


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    Joey

    I am not opposed to the occasional spanking. But, I am not in favor of regular whoping with the rod. I am in favor of discipline and tire of people whose kids are out of control.

    You seem to be saying that, if you whop regularly with a rod, you are more Scriptural than those who do not. Is that true?

    Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines. So, following his example, since he was wise, should we?

    Solomon left the kingdom in disarray, having taxed his people quite heavily. This led to a divided kingdom and lots of kings who did “evil in the sight of the Lord.”

    Perhaps you believe that I was a wimp with my kids and gave them some timeout which would not have worked on you. My type of timeout would have occurred at the same time you were about to go play with friends or join your family for a trip to the ice cream stand or …. I might have made you clean the garage or go ad mow an elderly person’s lawn.

    Many parents find that clever punishment can do as much and even more than striking them with a rod. However, it takes time, patience and thought in order to do it properly.GRabbing the rod is an easy fallback.

    Again, what is the underlying principle? Discipline of our children. YOu and I both agree on this but I have a rod that is more psychological than others.


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    Dee,

    Again, Solomon’s sins later in life doesn’t really affect the way we should view what he wrote, inspired by God, and pulling from wisdom that God granted to him in a specific way.

    As to your question about regularly “whoping” with the rod being more Scriptural I would just say that I wouldn’t argue that the frequency of the discipline has anything to do with it. Every child is unique and will require their own unique instruction and correction. Some children will probably need “the rod” very infrequently. I wasn’t spanked as often as any of my other siblings.

    I just think it is unwise to dismiss Proverbs when it says that sparing the rod is the unloving thing to do, not the other way around.

    But, like you say, discipline is the key.

    Also I don’t assume you were a wimp with your kids…or that there aren’t methods of discipline other than spanking…you mentioned mowing a yard. My parents used that very effective method as well 🙂

    If a parent is using the as an the rod as an “easy fallback” I would say that is a problem as well.


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    Joey

    I still say that we cannot interpret the OT without the view of the NT. In fact, I would say that we cannot correctly view the Gospels without the Epistles. Solomon functioned under the old law. His views and perspectives were influenced by the Torah. Calvinists are fond of saying that we must take the full counsel of Scripture. So it is in this case. Proverbs is in the OT for a reason. God did not have it included in the NT canon. So, we must be cautious in how we treat this Book.

    BTW, in all of my Bible studies, through all of these years, we always study the history of the characters behind the Scripture. It is relevant that Solomon did compromise his faith with all of his foreign wives. He screwed up badly and I believe we must remember this as we view all of the writings, including Proverbs. Proverbs does not stand alone just as no other book in the Scripture stands alone.

    Are you available for yard work?


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    Joey
    Forgot the most important memory. My husband and I had the privilege of meeting the great Howard Hendricks who taught everyone the following mantra. You need three things to correctly interpret Scripture: context, context and context.
    Solomon’s screw ups stand as we read Proverbs.


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    Dee,

    While it seems that the vast majority of child psychology experts warn against the use of corporal punishment as a means of discipline. I understand the need for Christians to feel that they are following God’s dictates in these matters. That said, and with no further commentary on the topic, I would offer the following “guideline” for parents that feel physical punishment is sometimes warranted.

    NEVER EVER, should a child’s dignity or self-esteem be sacrificed on the alter of his parent’s beliefs.

    In other words, in administering punishment, the child should never have either their dignity or self-esteem compromised as part of the punishment.


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    It is an interesting thing that I have not heard Jewish Rabbis interpret the Proverbs to teach that we should use rods to spank little children. You can find more information on that here. Also, I have many Christian arguments against spanking here.


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    Dee,

    I am not sure how the fact that Solomon sinned should affect the way we read the Proverbs. Or how David sinned should affect how we read the Psalms. Or how Paul sinned should affect the way we read the Epistles. I completely agree with interpreting Scripture via other Scriptures…the NT shines great light on the OT.

    But I am definitely of the old school opinion that it is ALL the Word of God, and that the context, context, context, helps us to interpret correctly, not decide which parts of Scripture aren’t true. Or which parts we can ignore because the writers were flawed.

    Incidentally I worked in the landscaping industry through college and miss it sometimes…


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    Joey

    Well, do I have a job for you.;0

    I think understanding David’s sin gives deep insight into his thoughts in the Psalm. God chose to work through the lives of the writers. He could have produced a book devoid of human contact but used men and their struggles to give depth to His word.

    Which part of Scripture do you think that I believe is Not true?

    For example, I had a woman tell me that there is a real gate with a huge pearl on it in heaven as is stated in Revelation. Could it be literally true? I suppose but it sure dilutes the meaning of such. The pearl could symbolize the pearl of great price- our salvation- that allows us to pass through the “gates” of heaven. That gives richness of meaning, not wooden literalism that sucks the life out of a passage.

    I do not, and would never, ignore any part of Scripture. It is all profitable for us. However, context is the key. I have had people accuse me of being close to heresy for believing that God created the earth billions of years ago. Some would say that this means that I do not take the Bible seriously. They are sadly mistaken. I take the Bible more seriously than many of the people I have known in many churches.

    I also know that my interpretation is not “in error” because I have consulted respected theologians. However, if it is not Piper or Mohler, there are some fools out there who would claim that I am not choosing the “correct” theologians. And if you think i am reading garbage by people like Spong, you would be wrong. I have also read through and taught the ENTIRE Grudem’s Systematic Theology (the long one) so those who would accuse me of not studying the “correct” theologians would be wrong.

    Once again, do you believe that I am not following Scripture by refusing to use a literal rod to hit my kids?

    Do you believe the “rod”passages require us to use a rod? Do you believe that this is a commandment?

    Do you believe that those who use a literal “rod”, whatever that may be, are correct?

    And, since we are getting literal, what do you mean by a rod? They didn’t have plumbing lines back then.

    What part of Scripture am I ignoring because the writer was flawed?


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    Dee,

    That’s a lot of questions.

    “I think understanding David’s sin gives deep insight into his thoughts in the Psalm. God chose to work through the lives of the writers. He could have produced a book devoid of human contact but used men and their struggles to give depth to His word.”

    I completely agree. And I think, like you said, the various experiences of the writers inform our understanding of the text. I don’t think that we can dismiss anything any of the writers of Scripture said under the inspiration of God because of their various sins. Your comment about Solomon led me to believe (perhaps wrongly) that we should take what he says in Proverbs differently than we would if he remained free from some of his sins later in life. I think that perspective would lessen the authority of God’s word, since now our perspective of the wisdom contained in Proverbs in not dependent on the truth it contains in and of itself. Whether we should spare the rod or not shouldn’t depend on our view of Solomon at all since Proverbs is a book of teaching that is nowhere else in Scripture rebutted, and is the Word of God, not Solomon.

    Now you may agree with that but add that not everything said in Scripture is meant literally, which is absolutely true. So you could say that when the Bible says that he who spares the rod hates his children, that the rod in this case simply means “instrument of discipline” and you can substitute any sort of reasonable discipline and be heeding the wisdom of Proverbs.

    I don’t agree, but nor do I think you are sinning, or that you don’t believe Scripture or anything like that if you hold that position. I would see that disagreement as a secondary, gray issue. I think Proverbs teaches that the rod is an effective tool that parents are wise to use, but the larger, more important point Solomon is making is simply “train your children in the way they should go.”

    Hopefully that clarifies my position. As to the age of the earth, or prophecies regarding Heaven…also gray areas I think. There are parts of Revelation that are clearly not literal. They are allegory or something else. I am young earth but actually don’t think it matters all that much as long as Adam maintains his position as the first human. I think either position can be defended exegetically quite well.

    In sum:

    “Once again, do you believe that I am not following Scripture by refusing to use a literal rod to hit my kids?”

    Only if you think Solomon teaches that, and you refuse anyway. If you don’t think he advocates using a literal rod/paddle but simply is referring to any form of discipline than you are following Scripture as you understand it…which is all any of us can do. I would follow it by including “the rod” in the various forms of discipline I incorporate.

    “Do you believe the “rod”passages require us to use a rod? Do you believe that this is a commandment?

    Do you believe that those who use a literal “rod”, whatever that may be, are correct?

    And, since we are getting literal, what do you mean by a rod? They didn’t have plumbing lines back then.”

    I believe when Solomon says “rod” he means “rod.” A thin, straight piece of material. I think the Scripture doesn’t mention size, or what type of material etc for the obvious reason that there was no need to.

    Parents who beat, or hit, or maul their kids are not doing so because they are trying to obey the Bible. They may justify what they are doing with a lame appeal to Proverbs, but Timothy McVeigh appealed to Scripture too…if your child is bruised or worse it is because a parent gave in to anger, not because they were lovingly disciplining their child.


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    “You are right, we should dismiss Proverbs as the Word of God because it was written by a man who sinned…also, by that same token, I guess we should throw out the whole thing, and Karlton wins!

    Seriously though, the fact that Solomon, for all of his wisdom, fell into the same temptations and sins he warned against so eloquently is sobering. But David was a murderer and the Psalms are still Scripture. ”

    Joey, Let me see if I can get this straight. You would want your son to be like David or Solomon? He would go to jail. I bet you pick and choose which things you like about these OT characters..

    Or would you rather your son be like Jesus?

    I have just about had my fill of pastors and Christian leaders excusing sin because “David” was worse. it seems to be epidemic.

    this is why we talk about context. In the OT, the hero is God. Not the characters He works through for His purposes. In fact, Proverbs is written by a father (and in some cases mother) to a SON, explicitly. Not a daughter.

    Another difference is that being in the NC, we are given the Holy Spirit and James tells us we can ask for the “pure wisdom” from above and actually get it!

    I would never want to cut any part out of the bible so that is a strawman to throw out. Let us ask for wisdom in even applying the Proverbs. to give you an example, I know of a “christian man” who took all the Proverbs about a “nagging” wife and put them all over the house. In fact, the wife was accused of being a nag because she asked if he had health insurance or not with his new job.


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    “Whether we should spare the rod or not shouldn’t depend on our view of Solomon at all since Proverbs is a book of teaching that is nowhere else in Scripture rebutted, and is the Word of God, not Solomon. ”

    We are told in Colossians not to exasperate (frustrate) our children. Much of what we have been discussing here would frustrate a child easily. While I want my child to “fear me”, I do not want to viewed as a tyrant. My goal is for their hearts to change not just get the right outward behavior. There must be a mix of love, grace and discipline.

    the “law” of love applies to our children, also.


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    “We are told in Colossians not to exasperate (frustrate) our children. Much of what we have been discussing here would frustrate a child easily. While I want my child to “fear me”, I do not want to viewed as a tyrant. My goal is for their hearts to change not just get the right outward behavior. There must be a mix of love, grace and discipline.

    the “law” of love applies to our children, also.”

    I totally agree and that was well said.

    And I would definitely not want my son to be a polygamist or a murderer. But I would definitely want them to learn from what David and Solomon wrote in Scripture.


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    For me .. and I believe a LOT of Jews, the whole bit about ‘not frustrating/exasperating your children’ means that spanking /hitting a child is OUT period. I cannot imagine any child not being exasperated by their parents. Not feeling angry. Which is why the Jews tend NOT to spank/hit as they would be causing their child to sin.

    I would like to pose a question. If you believe the Bible does tell you that you must spank your children and you feel it is your duty to do so – what about the really docile, well behaved child? Does this mean that .. just because you believe you ‘have to spank a child’ you will spank it … for it’s really minor infractions ?? Just to ‘get your spanking quota in’ as it were as you know there aren’t going to be ‘big crimes’ for your child to get spanked? Does it mean that … the day before their .. 18th birthday you spank that really well behaved child that you haven’t needed to hit, just to ‘obey’ that commandment? After all – in the Bible it doesn’t seem to tell you for what you should hit them … does it ???

    As for hitting babies, I seriously would have these people jailed… if I think spanking a child is a heinous crime.. I believe you will understand just how sick and angered I feel about hitting a tiny one…


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    TealRose

    TWW is committed to reporting any evidence that a church is promoting hitting infants to the authorities. We are offering this blog as a place for people to report these atrocities. Please get the word out.


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    Dee I would be the first one at the police station, let alone straight onto this blog, if I thought for one second any church I was visiting promoted hitting children or babies.

    Even growing up in the UK, I NEVER ever heard a vicar/minister mention spanking/hitting/corporal punishment for children. The only ever mentioned being kind and gentle to them .. as Jesus was.

    I live in a country now where hitting a child, at home, street or at school etc is illegal. And I thank God for it.


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    States Allowing Corporal Punishment

    STATE, # Students Hit, % of Total Students

    Alabama 33,716 4.5%
    Arizona 16 (1)
    Arkansas 22,314 4.7
    Colorado 8 (1)
    Florida 7,185 0.3
    Georgia 18,249 1.1
    Idaho 111 0.4
    Indiana 577 0.5
    Kansas 50 .01
    Kentucky 2,209 0.3
    Louisiana 11,080 1.7
    Mississippi 38,131 7.5
    Missouri 5,159 0.6
    New Mexico 705 0.2
    North Carolina 2,705 0.2
    Ohio 672 0.04
    Oklahoma 14,828 2.3
    South Carolina 1,409 0.2
    Tennessee 14,868 1.5
    Texas 49,197 1.1

    U.S. total 223,190 0.46

    Data for school year 2008


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    Lydia,

    sweet….I’m going to have a coming out party for you and any other atheists on this blog .. just let me know when!!

    🙂