"I know now, Lord, why you utter no answer. You are yourself the answer. Before your face questions die away. What other answer would suffice?" — C.S. Lewis
Several years ago I was chatting with a pastor friend whom I greatly respected. We were having a jovial conversation during which he said something to the effect, “Since Sarah called Abraham ‘Lord’, perhaps that’s how wives should be addressing their husbands.” I immediately assumed he was joking and quipped something like, “Well, calling one’s husband “lord” would not be appropriate because we no longer live under the Old Covenant – we’re now under the New Covenant.” As an aside, that conversation took place at least a year before I had done any research on the topics we are discussing in this forum.
In hindsight I believe he was just kidding (at least I hope so); however, it has become patently clear to me that there are some Christian patriarchs among us who expect to be revered in such a way. Take John Piper, for example. According to the video clip previously featured, this is how he expects a wife to address her husband if he is “verbally unkind” to her and asks her to participate in group sex (how did that idea pop into Piper’s head – it wasn’t suggested in the question):
“Honey, I, I want so much to follow you as my leader. God calls me to do that, and I would love to do that. It would be sweet to me if I could enjoy your leadership…but if you ask me to do this, require this of me, then I can’t go there.”
Well, praise the Lord!!!
Some have suggested that John Piper made a Freudian slip in this clip by saying:
“Clearly, she submits to Jesus above the Lord, I mean above the husband.”
You’ve gotta admit, it is an interesting slip-up…
Can you believe it? The Wartburg Watch turns TWO YEARS OLD on Saturday (March 19)!
I have to admit that since Dee and I first began doing research on Christian trends, I sometimes feel like I’m living in The Twilight Zone. Why? It is absolutely incredulous to me how these patriarchal leaders that we write about treat women. I am beginning to understand how women living under the Old Covenant must have felt. Thank God neither of us is married to a patriarch!
In researching this topic of domestic abuse, I finally found a Christian leader who truly understands. His name is Dr. Steven R. Tracy, and he is a professor of Theology and Ethics at Phoenix Seminary. You can read about him here. http://www.ps.edu/about-us/faculty-staff-board/resident-faculty/steven-r-tracy/
Here is an excerpt from his bio:
“Dr. Tracy’s research and ministry specialization is in gender, sexuality, and abuse. Dr. Tracy serves the state of Arizona on the Governor’s Commission for the Prevention of Violence against Women, and is also Director of Research and Curriculum for Mending the Soul Ministries, an abuse prevention and education ministry that empowers communities and equips churches for ministry to those impacted by abuse. Foundational to Mending the Soul Ministries is the integration of scientific knowledge and social research on abuse with biblical and theological truth.”
What alerted me to Dr. Tracy was an article he wrote and had published in the September 2007 Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society. The article’s title is:
“Patriarchy and Domestic Violence: Challenging Common Misconceptions”
It’s a lengthy, well-documented piece that I highly encourage you to read.
Here’s how the article begins:
“In spite of significant attention given to the topic of domestic violence in the United States in recent years…domestic violence continues to be a massive problem with enormous individual and societal consequences. The scope and consequences of domestic violence are often misunderstood and rarely addressed in the evangelical church, resulting in abuse victims and perpetrators not receiving essential ministry.” (p. 573)
Early in the article, Dr. Tracy puts an incredible price tag on intimate partner violence against women – “$8.3 billion with $5.5 billion of this cost the cost of physical assaults from intimate male partners.” (pp. 574-575).
While Dr. Tracy mitigates the feminists’ claim that “the root of all violence against women is patriarchy”, he explains that studies do show a link between conservative religion and domestic violence. (p. 581)
Here is a fascinating quote from the article:
“Conservative Protestant men who attend church regularly are found to be the least likely group to engage in domestic violence, though Conservative Protestant men who are irregular church attendees are the most likely to batter their wives.” (p. 581)
According to Dr. Tracy, studies have shown that patriarchy is not the single underlying cause of all abuse against women; however, it does play some role in domestic violence. (p. 581)
On page 590, Tracy states: “Thus, abusive men often explicitly or implicitly cite male headship and female submissiveness to justify their abuse, arguing that their wives were responsible for the abuse because they were not submissive; they disrespected them; they did not fulfill their marital obligations; and so on.”
Clearly, there is much work to be done in Christendom to deal with this scourge that is destroying so many lives. I hope you will take the time to read Tracy’s three challenges to complementarians (beginning on page 590) and the three challenges to egalitarians (beginning on page 593).
Dr. Tracy has written other materials that we believe you will find beneficial regarding domestic violence. We also want to encourage you to check out the non-profit organization that he is involved with called Mending the Soul. You can link to it here.
For those of you who have been affected by domestic abuse, please know that Dee and I are keeping you in our prayers. If we work together to address this hideous problem that plagues so many families, we CAN make a difference.
Lydia's Corner: Deuteronomy 13:1-15:23 Luke 8:40-9:6 Psalm 71:1-24 Proverbs 12:5-7
Finally! A Christian male who gets it.
Lydia,
Don’t for get the Christian males that have been commenting here.
Dee quoted a bunch of them on her Tuesday post.
I consider them MY brothers-in-arms against false doctrine and false teaching and foolish advice given by Piper in his video featured here.
I have stated my view before on domestic abuse.Now I must confess that even though I pastor a s.b.c. church I am not a true conservative in a religious sense. I once was when I first began my study for .the pastorate. I have witnessed many things during the past yrs. I now consider my self progressive which is my way to avoid the “L” word liberal. I am expressing all of this because it seems to me the more conservative a person is religiously, the more likely he is to want to follow the pattern of male superiority. It is sad that some seem to have a need to acquiese to a pastor or teacher as though it gives them some cover. summing up I have little or no respect for those who want to rule a wife or child and will even resort to abuse and then try to justify it. Jack
“I am expressing all of this because it seems to me the more conservative a person is religiously, the more likely he is to want to follow the pattern of male superiority. It is sad that some seem to have a need to acquiese to a pastor or teacher as though it gives them some cover.”
Jack, I cannot find a label home. I am very conservative in doctrine when it comes to the basics. I believe in hell when many today do not. I am also an egal. And I am conservative politically believing in very small government intervention in our lives.
So, what am I? I think the liberals stoled the “progressive” label. Think about this…no one was more into authoritarianism than the so called “socialists”.
America has a history of thumbing our noses at authority…both the Monarchy and the state church. I am very sad we are losing that characteristic.
Comment posted on the immediately previous blog post, and more below:
WRT Piper: Our daughter attended a college conference at which Piper was the main speaker, with several sessions where he spoke. She came back with severe doubts about her faith. We suggested she talk to a theologian at the church she attended (a seminary faculty member) who is not a hyper-calvinist, who helped her to see that her prior beliefs were well within the Biblical understanding of many biblically knowledgeable Christians. As a result, I do not trust Piper in any way or degree.
WRT the hyper-Calvinists: Calvin would not recognize the extreme interpretation of his works. More than six years ago, I made the comment that the hyper-Calvinists are focused on sovereignty, and believe that God is sovereign over everything EXCEPT HIS OWN SOVEREIGNTY. Makes Him seem a bit like King Midas. Every good parent, in love, withholds his/her sovereignty over their child so that the child can learn to make good choices. It results in love a lot more than dictating everything in the child’s life. God is surely a better parent to us than even the best earthly parent. The proper focus of the Christian is not God’s sovereignty, but His sacrificial love for us.
Sovereignty gets morphed into authority, and passed down a supposedly biblical chain, God to Pastor, Pastor to men, Man to spouse and children. It is totally misapplied. BTW, we need to keep in mind that King James was a ‘divine right’ king and his translators were thus instructed. Subsequent translators have, where there are multiple possibilities, to keep the KJV sense, even if it is the less likely one.
I wish I had more to say…. but this patriarchal mindset is so plainly wrong and obviously counterproductive to everything good, right, and life-giving. The preposterouness of it doesn’t need to be pronounced again. Case closed.
Now, what to do about it…
Educate, inform, champion the cause of the oppressed…..I don’t presume to have a well-thought out answer to what to do about it.
The photo you have at the beginning of these posts was a good choice. It is so plain-spoken (in refreshing contrast to the non-definitive soft-peddled sweetness which patriarchy is wrapped in). While it is hard to see, it really gets the point across. Takes the pseudo “godly” veneer off this extremely destructive “doctrine”.
Read this about another type of abuse – Spiritual Abuse.
Go to:
http://thecultbuster.blogspot.com/
re: JACK THERRELL @ Fri, Mar 18 2011 at 12:59 pm
You’re in good company Jack! I’m a resident left-leaning-godless-commie-pinko-socialist here at this blog, and I ain’t a-scared one bit when they call me a LIBERAL.
I was there when the copper bosses shot Joe Hill and when Tom Joad lit out on the road to escape kangaroo justice. I’m also there when guys like Piper claim that the good book sanctions keepin’ women folk down and docile jes’ like my great-great grandpappy did his negroes.
I speak my mind for them that ain’t got no advocate man or beast, an’ agin’ them that thinks they rule by divine right of plumbing the good lawd gave em’ when they come into this world a-squallin’ & a-gaspin’.
“I wish I had more to say…. but this patriarchal mindset is so plainly wrong and obviously counterproductive to everything good, right, and life-giving. The preposterouness of it doesn’t need to be pronounced again. Case closed.”
Oh but it does. It does not seem preposterous to the typical couple attending church because they have accepted a wrong premise: Male only leadership in the Body and marriage. To them, it is “good, right and life-giving”.
What we must do is get them to question the false premise they have been raised on. Why? Because they are unknowlingly replacing authority of Christ in the Body and marriage (and replacing the Holy Spirit) with mere humans. It is very serious to their souls.
Yeah, I agree with Lydia.
I know, Elastigirl. It gets old. really old. And on some days I’m so sick of it I just have to walk away for a little bit.
But then I have to come back because this heresy has an incredible powerfull suck mode. It is continually sucking in new, innocent people who don’t know any better.
It’s always looking for fresh blood.
Buffy the vampire slayer had bad days too where she was tired of it all. But that didn’t mean she could quit slaying vampires. She had to keep it up to protect the innocent.
Though all of us need breaks from time to time, some of us simply can’t abandon the cause. This is in no way a judgement of you. Vampire slaying may not be your calling. Perhaps you need to move on to, say, Zombie stomping or Death Star destroying or Hobbit protecting? 😉 (translated, tsunami relief, islamic evangelism, any other ministry I can’t think of this early in the morning)
Not all are a hand or an eye or a foot. And believe me, there is plenty of fight for us all and you have to find the one you are passionate about.
Some interesting statistics from Wikipedia…
Individual Pastors and other Christians are sometimes criticized for counseling victims to passively accept abuse in the way that Jesus and the martyrs accepted suffering. The Church of England’s report, Responding to Domestic Abuse states that the two circumstances are different. “First, there is the purpose of such suffering. Jesus and the martyrs accepted avocation to suffer as a consequence of bearing witness to the love, truth and justice of God. … it is not convincing to find redemptive value in passive acceptance of [domestic] abuse and violence.” Second, domestic abuse victims often lack the freedom of Jesus and the martyrs.
Christian pastors or counselors should not advise victims to make forgiving the perpetrator the top priority “when the welfare and safety of the person being abused are at stake”, the report advises.
One mid-1980s survey of 5,700 pastors found that 26 percent of pastors ordinarily would tell a woman being abused that she should continue to submit and to “trust that God would honor her action by either stopping the abuse or giving her the strength to endure it” and that 71 percent of pastors would never advise a battered wife to leave her husband or separate because of abuse.
“Not all are a hand or an eye or a foot. And believe me, there is plenty of fight for us all and you have to find the one you are passionate about.”
Very true. I have had quite a few people tell me I am in sin for even discussing this issue. For one it is divisive and for two, it is a B issue and not winning souls.
But what are women “won” to when they are taught to follow man? They are taught this from the time they are little girls…to follow humans. They do not question the premise but look for ways to fullfill their ‘God given specific gender role’ well as in that “work” being salvic. It is a lie from the pit of hell. A works religion of bondage.
People with titles in pulpits are lying about my Lord. Even if they have good intentions, it does not matter. The false premise must be confonted and women must be encouraged to “walk in the light” with the indwelling Holy Spirit they can have along with the FULL inheritance from our Lord’s Sacrifice.
Muff
For some reason your comment went into spam. I am monitoring the spam folder more closely. I promise you that I did not delete your comment. I have a special place in my heart for “left-leaning godless commie pinko socialists” who have a good heart which you do.
Jack
I am so tired of the word “conservative” being hijacked by a bunch of men who define conservative as being true to secondary doctrines such as the age of the earth, gender roles, or eschatology. These guys would think that I am a flaming liberal yet I am most conservative by many standards. I have decided to remove my name from all lists that attempt to box me-these include Calvinism, complementarian, etc. It is amusing when I refuse to play the game and see the doctrinal snobs go nuts insisting I must define myself for them. As Lewis said in the Chronicle of Narnia-Aslan is not a tame lion- and neither am I.
Hello Dee: Not only am I a “progressive ” I am not a believer in the young earth idea. Some wonder how I have been able to pastor in a church affiliated with a very “conservative” mind-set. Well a partial answer is, our church is very autonomous.I am not beholden to anyone except Christ. i am no longer concerned when some want to label me. I say have at it. I have spent my entire adult life as a pastor and will not be dissauded by those who will allow no view outside of their narrow mind-set. I believe some points of calvinism but not all. I believe God created everything but He is timsless so he didn’t have to constrict himself to 24 hour days. I believe the Bible is God’s word without question but so many don’t study it as we are taught to do. Dee I am not trying to highjack your blog so if I am out of line let me know and i will cease. Jack
Hi, Lydia and Mara. I agree it needs to be proclaimed from the rooftops, how destructive patriarchy in its various forms can be. I just felt that in this forum I couldn’t add anything more of value other than stating the obvious, which had already been done very well. We’re all already in agreement here.
Church can be so weirdly dysfunctional. A warm bath of (perceived) ideological safety where people feel they can at last relax their judicious censoring and filtering and therefore turn off their brain. I mean, if God is in the house, then all has to be well, right? (hardly, of course) And this weird thing where if “God” is involved, those in an official “God” capacity are self-perceived and other-perceived as in some way “reverantially removed from the rif raf”, as automatically trustworthy.
Absolutely not.
What I can add of substance to the conversation is to ponder what I as a mom of youngsters who lives most of her life in her house folding laundry, processing myriad happy meal toys back to their respective toy boxes, and other such telescoped things can do to help in this cause?
Elastigirl,
Is patriarchy really the issue?, Here is a snippet of a Wikipedia article that maintains there is no correlation between patriarchy, religion and abuse. (link at the end)
Four major surveys of wife assault found no causal relationship between men raised in a “patriarchal system” and incidence of wife assault, and faith groups endorsing hierarchical marital structures do not appear to report higher rates of interpersonal violence.
One 2004 study by William Bradford Wilcox examined the relationship between religious affiliation, church attendance, and domestic violence, using data on wives’ reports of spousal violence from three national United States surveys conducted between 1992 and 1994.
The study found that the lowest reported rates of domestic violence occurred among active conservative Protestants (2.8% of husbands committed domestic violence), followed by those who were religiously unaffiliated (3.2%), nominal mainline Protestants (3.9%), active mainline Protestants (5.4%), and nominal conservative Protestants (7.2%). Overall (including both nominal and active members), the rates among conservative Protestants and mainline Protestants were 4.8% and 4.3%, respectively. Examining Wilcox’s study, Van Leewun finds that the parenting style of conservative Protestant fathers is characterized by features which have been linked to positive outcomes among children and adolescents, that there is no evidence that gender-traditionalist ideology of the “soft patriarchal” kind is a strong predictor of domestic physical abuse, and that “gender hierarchialist males” who are frequent and active church members function positively in the domestic environment.
Another 2007 study by Christopher G. Ellison found that “religious involvement, specifically church attendance, protects against domestic violence, and this protective effect is stronger for African American men and women and for Hispanic men, groups that, for a variety of reasons, experience elevated risk for this type of violence.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_domestic_violence
Reported rates. That is always interesting.
Lydia: “But what are women ‘won’ to when they are taught to follow man? They are taught this from the time they are little girls…to follow humans. They do not question the premise but look for ways to fullfill their ‘God given specific gender role’ well as in that “work” being salvic. It is a lie from the pit of hell. A works religion of bondage.”
And some women will not be won to Christianity at all when they are taught that the only way to please God is to submit to men.
There are women who have been damaged from dysfunctional homes where the man used them for his own purposes. Then when these women need healing, the door is barred to Christ the Healer because the only way they can get to Him is by obeying men and the doctrines of men and that submission to men is the way to salvation.
It truly is an evil doctrine that must be exposed for what it is.
“What I can add of substance to the conversation is to ponder what I as a mom of youngsters who lives most of her life in her house folding laundry, processing myriad happy meal toys back to their respective toy boxes, and other such telescoped things can do to help in this cause?”
You have a wonderful ministry at home! And I am jealous! Teach those youngsters the truth about women and salvation. My child is only 10 but we check everything taught at church. I want her in the habit of being a Berean.
And keep blogging as you have time. I know that staying connected with believers outside the institution is very important.
Karlton,
Most patriarchal households do not report domestic violence. They take it to church as they are taught to. I am surprised the figure was that high to begin with.
Do you ever wonder what the figure would be among Mormons? Muslims? Not high, I expect, because they do not report it.
Lydia,
I agree with you, there are probably a significant number of unreported incidents, but you have to remember that there is also a significant number of unreported incidents across the board. So relatively speaking the stats still might be accurate.
Can’t Agree with you on that one, K. There are definitely some subsets that will have a MUCH lower set of reporting than others would. It is very much culturally relative.
Stunned,
Do you have anything to back up that assumption or is it just an assumption?
If the number of unreported cases were significantly higher, then the number of reported cases would be significantly lower, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
Karlton, Perhaps you had best define domestic violence from your source.
Patriarchal households do not report such things to the civil authorities. Reporting domestic abuse to the civil authorites would be considered the sin in the world of patriarchy. It is very culturally relative. I agree with Stunned on that one.
Karlton, of reported cases, how would they know they are Protestant Patriarchal? Would someone from Piper’s church automatically be put in that category? How about the SBC? Or are they mainline?
Are they including all churches that teach comp doctrine and lumping in the hard core Patriarchs?
I ran across another Piper Video, and he answers the question: How should I deal with parents who don’t acknowledge that they abused me?
There was no – it depends on the type of abuse. There is no basic speeches about somehow putting up with it. There is no crazy diversion over group sex.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed46WaTSA7E
This seemed to truly bother the man, and no giggling at all. No sigh and shaking his head at the beginning.
He speaks alot about ‘confusion’. YES its normally – gender confusion. I’m sorry but he is to me.
He speaks to adult children that have escaped abusive family relationships, and tells them how to handle their parents denial. He truly attempts some empathy.
His double standards are what causes confusion. He never showed that empathy to the abused spouse.
The one that is to live with abuse gets talked down to, and the one that escaped get empathy and tears. The only difference? The unbreakable vow I suppose.
He stands for the confusion he speaks so much about. Its not gender confusion.
Its confusion on treatment once you are married. When adult child ‘rightly’ is shown empathy, but a spouse gets a answer that goes down different rabbit trails? He teaches the confusion that speaks about, and it has nothing to do with ‘gender’ the way he teaches it.
The confusion is based in double standards.
Anything to back it up? Pretty much every sociological study done would point to the fact that one’s culture is a huge determination of trust/not trust of civil authorities. (Whether it be a culture that has historically been mistreated by the authorities or one where it is taught to mistrust the authorities.) It is often common in patriarchal societies that the local authorities are looked down upon as a group that would be threatening to the health of the family, therefore distrust of the civil authorities is often encouraged. Though I have no data and this i based on my experience and observations alone. Though I bet you that one could get you ten that hundreds of others have had the same experience.
This is why I am so often suspecto f studies that are based upon self reporting when it comes to comparing groups. Some groups are much more comfortable with authorities than others. This is why I suspect that Patricarchal families would not be reporting any where near the real cases of abuse. Especially when you have been taught that abuse is NOT even abuse.
(Not like i was even going to begin to bring up how that is defined and how it varies from self reporting group to self reporting group.)
Hannah, agreed.