Are You Rapture Ready?

“The doctrine of the Second Coming teaches us that we do not and cannot know when the world drama will end. The curtain may be rung down at any moment: say, before you have finished reading this paragraph.”  CS Lewis


 

Imagine waking up one Monday morning, sitting down to enjoy a cup of coffee while reading the newspaper, and discovering that the rapture will occur on May 21, 2011… Folks, it’s not a joke because that’s exactly what happened to both Dee and me in our respective homes early yesterday. The article that shocked us – “Cruisin’ to the Rapture, May 21” – can be accessed here
 

“Allison Warden proclaims that Jesus Christ shall return May 21. As in 151 days from now,” states the article. Allison is proudly pictured in her Subaru with the following words printed prominently on the side of her vehicle: “SAVE THE DATE: RETURN OF CHRIST MAY 21, 2011 WECANKNOW.com”

 

How did Allison Warden and hundreds of like-minded Christians come up with that specific day? According to the news story, “Judgement Day can be calculated precisely by tracing biblical genealogy, or by following history forward 7,000 years from the day Noah shut the door to his ark.”

 

Of course, you can probably imagine the next sentence in the article. “So if May 22 rolls around and you’re still here, wailing and gnashing your teeth, don’t say nobody warned you.”
 

Warden, 29, explained to the reporter that “if you’re on the left-behind list, get ready for some real disappointment. On Oct. 21, five months after the believers vanish into the sky, the entire planet will be engulfed in the cleansing fires of heaven. Poof.”
 

As we all know, end time predictions are nothing new. And every single prediction has been wrong until now… Warden admits that she cannot say with certainty that she is departing in May, even though she believes it enough to plaster her car with the announcement.

Warden, 29, was asked by the reporter Josh Shaffer if there was anything he can do to prepare. The self-avowed Calvininst answered, “Not much.” According to her theological viewpoint, she believes that God has already decided on who is going where.
 

We enjoyed how the article ends. Shaffer writes:
 

“I hate to say it, but I have a feeling I’ll be sticking around, and I hope that Warden will, too – not because she’s left behind, but because she’s mistaken. She seems like a nice person, and Earth can’t spare many of those. “
 

There have been quite a few comments relating to this article. Here are some of our favorites.
 

AwesomeAmerican wrote:

I could argue much of her Chrisitan theology, but I’ll include the following verses from the words of Jesus Himself and allow the reader the make his or her own interpretation.

Matthew 25:13 (New Living Translation) “So you, too, must keep watch! For you do not know the day or hour of my return.”

Matthew 25:13 (New King James Version) “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.”

PhantomLord wrote:

“Stupidity should be painful.

I am sure that this lady is not willing to put her money where her claims are. but if you are by chance, please transfer all of your money and possessions to me on May 20, 2011. You aren’t going to need them after that, right?

Will she do this? Of course not!”

And John Burns wrote:
 

“Could you please interview some of the Christians who are down at the shelter serving the homeless? Maybe some of those working with drug addicts or prisoners? Maybe some of the ones who struggle daily to live by Christ’s example as peacemakers?

 

Just please do me a favor and find this lady on May 22 just to make sure she hasn’t harmed herself. If you can’t find her, then THAT would be a story.”
 

Read more at the News and Observer on line at this link. 

This organization appears to subscribe to the Kings James Version Only (KJVO) since all Bible passages listed are KJV. Here is a link
 

We believe that literalists/legalists like these provide an extremely poor witness to a lost world.
 

So are you “rapture ready”? 

Lydia’s Corner: Exodus 37:1-38:31 Matthew 28:1-20 Psalm 34:11-22 Proverbs 9:9-10

Comments

Are You Rapture Ready? — 67 Comments

  1. Karlton,

    Did you click on the link to the article to see the photo of her sitting in her Subaru? A picture is worth a thousand words.

  2. My prediction: For each parent that bought into this with young children there will be at least one kid who after we are all still here 5/22/11 will have the chance they leave the faith by age 20 increased >100%

    Whenever these guys roll out their crazies, I always wonder what it is about ‘no man knows the day or the hour’ that needs clarifying.

    Zeta

  3. Sweet ride! Since she is so sure of the date, would she mind signing over the pink slip to that car. I wanna be driving it on the day after the rapture. After all, she doesn’t need it for anything does she?

    Zeta,

    You would think that after such a long and abysmal history of trying to predict dates, they’d finally give up..but alas…it isn’t to be:

    About 90 CE: Saint Clement 1 predicted that the world end would occur at any moment.

    2nd Century CE: Prophets and Prophetesses of the Montanist movement predicted that Jesus would return sometime during their lifetime and establish the New Jerusalem in the city of Pepuza in Asia Minor.

    365 CE: A man by the name of Hilary of Poitiers, announced that the end would happen that year. It didn’t.

    375 to 400 CE: Saint Martin of Tours, a student of Hilary, was convinced that the end would happen sometime before 400 CE.

    500 CE: This was the first year-with-a-nice-round-number-panic. The antipope Hippolytus and an earlier Christian academic Sextus Julius Africanus had predicted Armageddon at about this year.

    968 CE: An eclipse was interpreted as a prelude to the end of the world by the army of the German emperor Otto III.

    992: Good Friday coincided with the Feast of the Annunciation; this had long been believed to be the event that would bring forth the Antichrist, and thus the end-times events foretold in the book of Revelation. Records from Germany report that a new sun rose in the north and that as many as 3 suns and 3 moons were fighting. There does not appear to be independent verification of this remarkable event.

    1000-JAN-1: Many Christians in Europe had predicted the end of the world on this date. As the date approached, Christian armies waged war against some of the Pagan countries in Northern Europe. The motivation was to convert them all to Christianity, by force if necessary, before Christ returned in the year 1000.

    Meanwhile, some Christians had given their possessions to the Church in anticipation of the end. Fortunately, the level of education was so low that many citizens were unaware of the year. They did not know enough to be afraid. Otherwise, the panic might have been far worse than it was. Unfortunately, when Jesus did not appear, the church did not return the gifts.

    Serious criticism of the Church followed. The Church reacted by exterminating some heretics. Agitation settled down quickly, as it later did in the year 2000.

    1000-MAY: The body of Charlemagne was disinterred on Pentecost. A legend had arisen that an emperor would rise from his sleep to fight the Antichrist.

    1005-1006: A terrible famine throughout Europe was seen as a sign of the nearness of the end.

    1033: Some believed this to be the 1000th anniversary of the death and resurrection of Jesus. His second coming was anticipated. Jesus’ actual date of execution is unknown, but is believed to be in the range of 27 to 33 CE.

    1147: Gerard of Poehlde decided that the millennium had actually started in 306 CE during Constantine’s reign. Thus, the world end was expected in 1306 CE.

    1179: John of Toledo predicted the end of the world during 1186. This estimate was based on the alignment of many planets.

    1205: Joachim of Fiore predicted in 1190 that the Antichrist was already in the world, and that King Richard of England would defeat him. The Millennium would then begin, sometime before 1205.

    1284: Pope Innocent III computed this date by adding 666 years onto the date the Islam was founded.

    1346 and later: The black plague spread across Europe, killing one third of the population. This was seen as the prelude to an immediate end of the world. Unfortunately, the Christians had previously killed a many of the cats, fearing that they might be familiars of Witches. The fewer the cats, the more the rats. It was the rat fleas that spread the black plague.

    1496: This was approximately 1500 years after the birth of Jesus. Some mystics in the 15th century predicted that the millennium would begin during this year.

    1524: Many astrologers predicted the imminent end of the world due to a world wide flood. They obviously had not read the Genesis story of the rainbow.

    1533: Melchior Hoffman predicted that Jesus’ return would happen a millennium and a half after the nominal date of his execution, in 1533. The New Jerusalem was expected to be established in Strasbourg, Germany. He was arrested and died in a Strasbourg jail.

    1669: The Old Believers in Russia believed that the end of the world would occur in this year. 20 thousand burned themselves to death between 1669 and 1690 to protect themselves from the Antichrist.

    1689: Benjamin Keach, a 17th century Baptist, predicted the end of the world for this year.

    1736: British theologian and mathematician William Whitson predicted a great flood similar to Noah’s for OCT-13 of this year.

    1792: This was the date of the end of the world calculated by some believers in the Shaker movement.

    1794: Charles Wesley, one of the founders of Methodism, thought Doomsday would be in this year.

    1830: Margaret McDonald, a Christian prophetess, predicted that Robert Owen would be the Antichrist. Owen helped found New Harmony, IN.

    1832?: Joseph Smith (1805-1844) was the founder of the Church of Christ, which became the Restorationist movement after many schisms. It now includes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — a.k.a. the Mormons, and about a hundred other denominations and sects. He heard a voice while praying. He wrote, in Doctrines and Covenants section 130:14-17:

    “I was once praying very earnestly to know the time of the coming of the Son of Man, when I heard a voice repeat the following:”

    “Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man; therefore let this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.”

    “I was left thus, without being able to decide whether this coming referred to the beginning of the millennium or to some previous appearing, or whether I should die and thus see his face.”

    “I believe the coming of the Son of Man will not be any sooner than that time.”

    The year in which this event occurred is not recorded. However, one commentator suggested 1832 or earlier. Smith is later recorded as having said:
    “I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be written–the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old.”

    Smith would have reached the age of 85 during 1890. Unfortunately, by that year, Smith had been dead for almost a half century, having been assassinated by a mob.

    1843-MAR-21: William Miller, founder of the Millerite movement, predicted that Jesus would come on this date. A very large number of Christians accepted his prophecy.

    1844-OCT-22: When Jesus did not return, Miller predicted this new date. In an event which is now called “The Great Disappointment,” many Christians sold their property and possessions, quit their jobs and prepared themselves for the second coming. Nothing happened; the day came and went without incident.

    1850: Ellen White, founder of the Seven Day Adventists movement, made many predictions of the timing of the end of the world. All failed. On 1850-JUN-27 she prophesied that only a few months remained before the end. She wrote: “My accompanying angel said, ‘Time is almost finished. Get ready, get ready, get ready.’ …now time is almost finished…and what we have been years learning, they will have to learn in a few months.”

    1856 or later: At Ellen White’s last prediction, she said that she was shown in a vision the fate of believers who attended the 1856 SDA conference. She wrote “I was shown the company present at the Conference. Said the angel: ‘Some food for worms, some subjects of the seven last plagues, some will be alive and remain upon the earth to be translated at the coming of Jesus.” 11 That is, some of the attendees would die of normal diseases; some would die from plagues at the last days, others would still be alive when Jesus came. “By the early 1900s all those who attended the conference had passed away, leaving the Church with the dilemma of trying to figure out how to explain away such a prominent prophetic failure.”

    1881: Mother Shipton, (1488 – 1561), a 16th century mystic predicted the end of the world: “…The world to an end shall come; in eighteen hundred and eighty-one.”

    1891 or before: On 1835-FEB-14, Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon church, attended a meeting of church leaders. He said that the meeting had been called because God had commanded it. He announced that Jesus would return within 56 years — i.e. before 1891-FEB-15. (History of the Church 2:182)

    1914 was one of the more important estimates of the start of the war of Armageddon by the Jehovah’s Witnesses (Watchtower Bible and Tract Society).

    They based their prophecy of 1914 from prophecy in the book of Daniel, Chapter. The writings referred to “seven times”. The WTS interpreted each “time” as equal to 360 days, giving a total of 2520 days. This was further interpreted as representing 2520 years, measured from the starting date of 607 BCE. This gave 1914 as the target date.

    When 1914 passed, they changed their prediction; 1914 became the year that Jesus invisibly began his rule.

    1914, 1915, 1918, 1920, 1925, 1941, 1975 and 1994, etc. were other dates that the Watchtower Society (WTS) or its members predicted.

    Since late in the 19th century, they had taught that the “battle of the Great Day of God Almighty” (Armageddon) would happen in 1914 CE. It didn’t.

    The next major estimate was 1925. Watchtower magazine predicted: “The year 1925 is a date definitely and clearly marked in the Scriptures, even more clearly than that of 1914; but it would be presumptuous on the part of any faithful follower of the Lord to assume just what the Lord is going to do during that year.”

    The Watchtower Society selected 1975 as its next main prediction. This was based on the estimate “according to reliable Bible chronology Adam was created in the year 4026 BCE, likely in the autumn of the year, at the end of the sixth day of creation.” They believed that the year 1975 a promising date for the end of the world, as it was the 6,000th anniversary of Adam’s creation. Exactly 1,000 years was to pass for each day of the creation week. This prophecy also failed.

    The current estimate is that the end of the world as we know it will happen precisely 6000 years after the creation of Eve. There is no way of knowing when this happened.

    1919: Meteorologist Albert Porta predicted that the conjunction of 6 planets would generate a magnetic current that would cause the sun to explode and engulf the earth on DEC-17.

  4. Is this related to Harold Camping’s latest prediction of the world ending in spring of 2011, or another group who has selected the same date?

    I know of at least one person whose parent counseled him not to marry because Jesus was coming back this spring. The parent meant it in all seriousness.

  5. Just checked the website. Looks like Family Radio, so yes. This guy has been disturbing churches in America for way too long. I can’t believe after the 1994 fiasco and the “the Holy Spirit just left the church in 1994” that people still are listening.

    Or, looking at Karlton’s list, that people are listening to the “we know the date” crowd in general. Didn’t Christ say otherwise?

  6. Hi Karl. You missed a very notable round focusing on 1988/89… I don’t remember the details, but the guy got a LOT of publicity. He kept pushing the idea for the next 7 years (I guess he wasn’t sure about the rapture) The smoke rising from burning oil wells in iraq in 1991 (3 and 1/2 years after 1988) added to the color of the fellows claims:

    “Christ returns in 1988”

    But I do know one friend of mine whose church got all caught up in it (Christian Missionary Alliance btw) and whose youngest daughter – scared to death by it I think – left the faith over it.

    Zeta

  7. Karlton –

    Great history lesson.

    The church of my youth was, St Martins of tours! 🙂

    “375 to 400 CE: Saint Martin of Tours, a student of Hilary, was convinced that the end would happen sometime before 400 CE.”

    http://www.stmartinsweb.com/

  8. “1832?: Joseph Smith (1805-1844) was the founder of the Church of Christ, which became the Restorationist movement after many schisms. It now includes The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints — a.k.a. the Mormons, and about a hundred other denominations and sects.”

    You’re slightly mistaken here. The denominations known as the Church of Christ, Independent Christian Churches and Disciples of Christ can trace their origins back to Thomas and Alexander Campbell and Barton Stone in the early 1800’s. Joseph Smith *might* be included in a “restoration movement”, but he is not the only person involved in such a movement.

  9. And Karl’s exhaustive list didn’t include Hal Lindsey (fail), Pat Robertson (fail), and of course the 2012 end-of-the-Mayan-calendar crowd (guess we’ll see… that is, if Allison is wrong).

  10. Actually the Rapture theory is fairly new. I have read that it came about after some lady had a vision and that was in 1830 or so. Before this the rapture theory was nowhere to be found in church doctrine. Personally I have my doubts about it.

  11. I think the idea we will be ‘caught up in the air to meet Him has been around for quite some time. The idea it is the evacuation of the saints prior to the tribulation is relatively new.

    The difficulty I have with it is that what about all those other Christians that suffered and died for their faith as ‘tribulation’ descended upon them.

    Though Christ does speak of ‘one being taken and another left behind’.

    Either way – raw probabilities are that if persecution and distress comes your way and threatens your livelihood and/or life, you will be going through it in soe form or fashion, not getting zapped out of it by way of Rapture Ready Air Travel. If such an event is a legit teaching of scripture, its only gonna happen once.

    Zeta

  12. Bill
    My understanding is that a guy by the name of Stephen Darby popularized the premil, pretrib viewpoint in the mid1800s. I will need to look it up. Personally, I am moving away from a rigid view on this doctrine or premil, pretrib. But perhpas I should save it for a post. Anybody else out there moving away from premil, pretrib?

  13. Lydia

    I think it would have been fun to watch him with a group of college kids. I can imagine the comments.

  14. Hey OB

    Sounds like the name of a parody-Rapture Ready Air Travel. I feel a sort of Wonderland thing coming on…

  15. When I was in college we would watch Jack and Rexella Van Impe for entertainment.

    I still do occasionally. Jack and the lovely Rexella. Good times! Hasn’t Jack predicted the end of the world several times in the past?

    And let us not forget Y2K…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKv563gbJbE 🙄

  16. Notastepford

    Y2K? We knew a couple who left their jobs and moved up north to go “off grid.” They bought seeds, hoes, and learned how to make soap from scratch. The guy started to cry when i said we didn’t buy the hysteria. He was actually crying because he was convinced that we would die when the hordes invaded our home looking for food.

    I told him I would look him up if things went bad. Good Christian that he was, he said that he wouldn’t help anyone who didn’t heed his warnings. Good night!

  17. Allie,
    Although the Mormon church and the churches associated with the Stone-Campbell movement are very different, both groups refer to themselves as Restoration Movement churches. It is likely that the historical connection comes from a preacher named Sidney Rigdon, who was part of Campbell’s movement but later became an influentual figure in the early Mormon church. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidney_Rigdon

    When the Churches of Christ / Christian Churches use the term “restoration”, they mean a return to biblical practices, whereas when Mormons use the term, they mean the supposed restoration of the office of prophet in the person of Joseph Smith and his successors.

  18. Orion’sbelt / Zeta,
    The popular booklet in 1988 was called “88 Reasons Why The Rapture Will Be In 1988.” The next year it was revised and reprinted as “89 Reasons Why The Rapture Will Be In 1989.” No joke.

  19. Dee,
    I moved away from the idea of a pre-trib rapture a long time ago. These days I go back and forth between historical millennialism and partial preterism, depending on what I’ve heard or read most recently. 🙂

  20. Hello Wartburg Watch.

    I am a fairly recent reader who found your site while researching abusive churches. I very much appreciate all you are doing to expose abuse in churches and abusive pastors/leaders. There seems to be a whole section of Christendom where abuse of the flock is the “new normal,” represented by C.J. Mahaney, Mark Driscoll, and others like them. We need more voices like yours out here on these issues.

    I am particularly touched by the survivors of the SGM. Between Refuge, Survivors, and this site I have learned quite a lot. I have been following that issue regularly as an outsider, as I have never been exposed to Mahaney nor been to an SGM church. I am grieved by what I have learned and pray for the survivors and for the leadership at SGM that God will deal with this to His glory. Hopefully that will include not only exposure of the abusers but the redemption of them from this practice. (However, I must agree with the survivors that, barring a miracle, that will not happen.)

    I did want to come out of lurkdom to post a few thoughts on this article and comment thread. I see that the Harold Camping camp is at it again. Though unsurprising, this is a shame as, with the exception of holding that the church will be raptured, they do not remotely represent Pre-millennial Dispensationalism. In the instance of the “we can know” (which by itself is anathema in Dispensationalism) site, we have the rapture of the church followed in a mere 6 months, not seven years (or more, as the beginning of the Tribulation is the confirming of the covenant with the Antichrist, not the rapture of the church) by the second coming of Christ. Camping and his ilk represent a practice that takes eschatology out of the context of Dispensational thought and garbles it with any number of other things to create a sort of Franken-doctrine that makes no sense and is wrong on its face.

    I see that you would like to do an article on the theology of the Rapture. With that in mind I wonder if I could draw your attention to some sites that deal with that doctrine in a more scholarly and certainly more accurate fashion? There is a site that houses a great many articles and teachings of the Plymouth Brethren, the group most noted for advancing Dispensational thought in the 1800’s, called Stem Publishing:

    http://www.stempublishing.com/

    On the By Topic page there is a section specifically about the rapture.

    http://www.stempublishing.com/index/topical.html

    I would ask you to please read there for Dispensational teaching from the original Brethren teachers. They are the ones who best explain why they feel there will be a pretribulation rapture, and show how it fits into their system. (I think when you said Stephen Darby you were probably thinking of John Nelson Darby, who was an early Brethren and is often credited with the recovery of Dispensationalism, much as Luther is credited with the recovery of the doctrine of salvation by faith alone through Christ alone.)

    Another site run by modern Dispensational scholar Thomas Ice is pre-trib.org:

    http://www.pre-trib.org/

    There is a page there with many articles by current Dispensational scholars who definitely are not represented by Camping, et al. Among them are articles on early Dispensationalists such as Darby, as well as articles on the rapture, etc.

    http://www.pre-trib.org/articles

    While you may still disagree with their position, I feel you will get a more accurate assessment of the pre trib rapture from these teachers than from the likes of Camping. I do encourage you to do some research over at these sites before you write an article on the pre trib rapture as they are the best sources of what the position is. And they agree that date setting is anathema.

    One other idea I saw here from one of the commenters that I would like to address is the thought that the pre trib rapture is about getting out of suffering. I can certainly see where that idea would come from and I do think it has been used that way, wrongly, by some who hold to an imminent rapture. The teaching of suffering in Dispensationalism is that it is to be taken for granted that the believer will suffer in this life and that such suffering has been appointed to us, or, rather, we have been appointed to it. (The Brethren writers wove this fact throughout their teachings.) Christ was rejected by the world and we, His servants will suffer likewise as we are not better than He. We suffer, as it were, the “judgment” of the world against Christ and so share in His sufferings. They rejected Him and so they will reject us in like fashion. The Tribulation, however, is God’s judgment on an unbelieving world. We do not suffer His judgment in this fashion as all judgment from God against us has been met for us by Christ on the cross. And because of this is it viewed as impossible for the blood washed Bride of Christ to be present/under His judgment/condemnation of an unbelieving, Christ rejecting world during that Tribulation. So it is not escaping suffering per se that is the hope of the rapture (though that would be the end of our suffering as we would be with Him where He is in glory), but that we are not to suffer the judgment of His wrath against those who have rejected Him. The point of the rapture is not the escape from suffering for the believer, though that would be an undeniable benefit. The point of it is to glorify God and prove that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

    Again, thank you for all you are doing. Yours are voices of comfort to wounded sheep everywhere, which service cannot be overrated. As things go on, you will surely not lack for material on that issue. More power to you.

    God bless.

  21. For three easy payments of 49.95$ I’ll send you my DVD series of why the rapture will occur on 21st December 2012. Ancient codes embedded in the Bible PROVE beyond a shadow of a doubt that the clock is ticking down to CHECKMATE on December 21, 2012!

    Don’t get left behind, don’t let you and your family get gobbled up by 9.3 earthquakes and 900 meter high tsunamis!

    And if you act now, I will knock off one 49.95$ payment and include a free download of the Bible codes that prove we are at the end of days! Operators are standing by to take your orders and credit card info!

  22. Muff
    You are now advertising on our blog. We get a cut of the sales. Let’s see….21% for the first 20 thousand orders and 12% for the next 20 thousand. I shall throw in my book on how to build a canoe to handle the tsunami for… you guessed it, two payments of $49.95.
    Thank you for the best laugh all day. I just got back from standing in line at the HoneyBaked Ham store and the local supermarket. I needed some Christmas cheer. Wished you lived in NC.

  23. Jan H

    Thanks for the correction. Its kind of funny-the man who first explained to me about Darby was named Stephen and I think I messed them up together in my mind.

    Your information is fascinating and I plain to read it more in depth, along with the links over this next week. I appreciate you taking the time to share your research and thoughts.

  24. Junkster

    I am currently a partial preterist. However, I am open to having my mind changed.I once asked an elder in a previous church his thoughts on premil, pretrib. He said he tilted that way. However, if the Tribulation happens and he is still here, he is calling a meeting of the elders to revisit the issue. 🙂

  25. Calculations have been made and they all fell in the mid-1800s. When the predictions of the predictors failed to materialize, they started saying that no one knows while Bible has been and is very clear. Muslims also waited for the second coming in the fourteenth century after Muhammad, and they also have started saying that any moment but no one knows.

    For many Jewish people, a messiah is to come to redeem them. For many Christians, it is the second coming which will end evil and will bring a thousand years of peace and joy. Some Hindus looks for the second coming of Krishna. Among Muslims, most look for the second coming of Jesus accompanied by the guided imam, both will fight on their side and defeat their adversaries. The Shiite Muslims wait for the Hidden Imam. While they wait, it gives them hope for the future and an assurance that one day they will be happier, joyous and worry-free.

    Are their hopes valid or are they hoping in vain? For Christians, the first messiah did come two thousand years ago and they enjoy the fruits of his sacrifices today in power and prosperity. For Muslims, the prophecies of Moses (about “that prophet”, etc.) and Jesus (about the “spirit of truth”, etc.) were fulfilled in Muhammad and they follow a teaching which gives them comfort solace. A small but ever growing section of Muslims, the Ahmadiyya believe the founder of their community fulfilled the second coming. He predicted more than a hundred years ago that no one will descend from heaven as Jesus had survived cross, traveled to the east to tend the lost sheep of Israel and died a natural death in India and his grave is well-known in Sri Nagar, Kashmir; so anyone who fulfills the second coming will be a person like him:

    “Remember, that no one will descend from heaven. All our opponents who are alive today will die and no one will see Jesus Son of Mary descending from heaven. Then their next generation will pass away and no one of them will see this spectacle. Then generation next after that will pass away without seeing the Son of Mary descending from heaven. Then God will make them anxious that though the time of the supremacy of the cross had passed away and the world had undergone great changes, yet the son of Mary has not descended from heaven. Then the wise people will suddenly discard this belief. The third century after today will not yet have come to a close when those who hold this belief, weather Muslims or Christians, will lose all hope and will give up this belief in disgust. There will then be one religion that will prevail in the world and only one leader. I have come only to sow the seed, which has been sown by my hand. Now it will sprout and grow and flourish, and no one can arrest its growth.”
    Hadrat Mirza Ghulam Ahmad (peace be on him) 1835-1908,
    Ruhani Khaza’in, Vol. 20, p. 65 (1903)

    The above prophecy was written 107 years ago. We can see today how the world has changed since. He also predicted the fall of Tzar, better future for Muslims who were under European rule during his lifetime, etc.

  26. “Are their hopes valid or are they hoping in vain? For Christians, the first messiah did come two thousand years ago and they enjoy the fruits of his sacrifices today in power and prosperity.”

    Ahmad,

    Tell that to the Chinese Christians and they will laugh as they are persecuted daily for their Faith in Christ. No prosperity or power for Christians there.

    What about the Christians in Syria? India?

    Do not define Christianity by what you see in the West, friend.

  27. People are persecuted all over the world for a wide variety of religious, philosophical, political, sexual, gender, age, ethnic, and just about every other reason you can imagine and probably some that you can’t. Christianity has no corner on that market.

    That people suffer for their beliefs is sad, but to claim that this suffering is some sort of evidence of the truth of their beliefs is absurd.

  28. Karlton, I can only go by what Jesus told us in the Word. I never said it was “evidence” of truth. I was simply responding to the idea that we enjoy the fruits of Christ’s sacrifice through prosperity and power. And made the point that is not the case in a place like China. It is the opposite.

  29. The question is worded with a wrong premise and I cannot answer as it is worded.

    Jesus said the world will hate us as it hated Him. If you think about it, He was the nicest most compassionate person ever to walk this earth and was still crucified. Even some who witnessed his healings and compassoin were later screaming: crucify Him. Why? Because He claimed to be equal with God. (J0hn 5:18)

    Christians do enjoy protection under the law here that chinese christians do not. (Other countries, too…such as Muslim countries…where one can be killed for converting. I have a family member who was instrumental in getting a converted Muslim out of Afghanistan before his family could kill him.).

    I also have a friend who was working in India and an Indian pastor there was ambused and murdered for his Faith by Hindu’s. It was horrible…he was poor an walking to a secret house church without realizing they had found out.

    Our comfort in the West actually hurts us when it comes to depending on God instead of ourselves.

    I doubt any of my responses would satisfy you, though.

  30. Lydia,

    Why do you say “I doubt any of my responses would satisfy you, though”, it seems a statements like that is either patronizing or you in fact, do not believe that you have given a sufficiently good answer, which begs the question of why it would be good enough for you either.

    First point is that, it has nothing to do specifically with Christianity, all religions have protection under the law here and in China you can be arrested or killed for a wide range of beliefs or philosophies which are contrary to government policy.

    Secondly, at least in the case of the Indian pastor, relying on “rule of law” in the US would seem to offer much better protection than relying on God while you walk to church.

    Thirdly, you say that “our comfort in in the West actually hurts us…”. What would you suggest? That we give up our comforts like law and civilized society so we need to be more dependent on God?

  31. Karlton, I am basing my response on people I know who have been ministering in these countries. As to China, these people have to sneak in and out. You might be thinking of the govt approved church in China. I am not. In fact, my sister was taken on a tour by the ‘govt approved church’ folks a few years back. Huge difference from the illegal underground church! BTW: Some of the government approved churches have interesting government logos on them. Includes different icons such as cross, star of david and a crescent and a chinese character.

    “econdly, at least in the case of the Indian pastor, relying on “rule of law” in the US would seem to offer much better protection than relying on God while you walk to church.”

    This is a very good point. In the US we do not have to be ready each day to give up our lives for the Gospel. It really takes courage to be a Christian in certain places. Not here.

    And God does protect us even if we are martyred for Jesus Christ. He gives us eternal life. That is eternal protection.

  32. Lydia,

    Oh, I think Americans DO have to give up their lives for the gospel…the only difference is that they don’t realize that’s what they are doing.

    As to the last sentence, that is a cop-out, plain and simple. Your cannot define “protection” in any rational way that permits the person being “protected” to lose his/her life.

    And the people being “martyred” are being killed because they are disobeying the law of the land where they reside or because other religious zealots are doing their God’s work by exterminating the infidels and heretics…whether that law is justified and sane or not.

  33. ‘As to the last sentence, that is a cop-out, plain and simple. Your cannot define “protection” in any rational way that permits the person being “protected” to lose his/her life.”

    Then I guess I will have to be irrational. :o)

    Like this:

    34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 And a person’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. Matthew 10

    24Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and(AT) take up his cross and follow me. 25For whoever would save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.” Matthew 16

  34. Lydia,

    As long as we both agree then I promise not to try and stand in your way. 🙂

    But I am curious why you would want to be irrational. It doesn’t give any benefit that couldn’t be had through rationality. Irrationality typically isn’t a goal that we strive to achieve. To top it off, irrationality confers it’s own set of problems and issues on the individual.

    Also keep in mind, Jesus never said anything. Someone else said, that Jesus said something (some times it is even more removed). The things that people did attribute to Jesus were done so, at least in the Gospels, 70 or so years after the fact. Hardly evidence that I’d want to risk my life on.

    I trust my son implicitly, yet when I ask him what his teacher said, I find that after talking with the teacher directly it is quite frequently, a drastically different story, and that’s only 1 or 2 days after the event!

    How much do you remember of conversations with your friends that occurred 20, 30 or 40 years ago? Can you really quote those conversations word for word and how much confidence would you have that your quotations are accurate?

    Just curious…

  35. “But I am curious why you would want to be irrational. It doesn’t give any benefit that couldn’t be had through rationality. Irrationality typically isn’t a goal that we strive to achieve. To top it off, irrationality confers it’s own set of problems and issues on the individual.”

    You called it irrational. I do not think I am being irrational at all. I simply agreed because we have different defintions of what that looks like as a believer and non believer. I think it is perfectly rational to be willing to give up my life to be in Paradise with Jesus Christ forever, if need be.

    The same for believing the Word.

  36. Ahmad
    Thank you for your interesting history. I was not aware of some of the things that you speak of. Sometimes I feel as if I understand little in the world. Could you please help me understand your comments? I would be grateful/

    How does Hadrat Ahmad fit within the current groups of Muslims? Is he followed by Shi’ites and Sunnis?

    Your name is the same. Was he a relative of yours?

    Could you help me understand the 12th Imam? It is my understanding that Mamoud Ahmadinejab speaks with him. How does he do this? Do the followers of Ahamd believe in this as well?

    Thank you for your interesting comment on our blog. Welcome.

  37. Hi Karl

    I am enjoying the exchange between Lydia and you.

    One of my favorite songs is by Michael Card and I think it is called “Fool for Christ.” Scripture is pretty clear that, if Christians follow Christ’s example, that nonbelievers will think they are nuts.(Scripture says it more eloquently). When I read the exchanges over at ExChristians.Net, it seems as if this might be true. Many believe we are out of our minds for following a God/Man purely by faith.

    Frankly, it would be a heckuva lot easier to ditch it and go with the flow. But, somehow, there is joy in the journey. Never once have I considered giving up the joy that is constantly with me for the ease of compromise. This joy is difficult to describe but it is with me even in the pain.

    Here is one for you. I have only just started talking about it. One night, when my daughter was not doing well in her ordeal with a malignant brain tumor, I cried myself to sleep, fearing that I would lose her. I was startled out of my sleep by a bright light and a feeling of warmth. Note: I was deep asleep. For about 10 minutes I felt at peace and comforted and slowly fell back to sleep. At one point I whispered, “Thank you.”

    Nuts? I don’t think so. It was real to me. And it is things like that that shore up my faith.

    Belated Happy New Year, friend.

  38. Dee,

    I don’t doubt that the experience occurred, I had a friend when I was younger who swore that he woke up in the middle of the night and saw an angel sword in hand floating over the end of his bed.

    People misunderstand me (fairly frequently it seems), but I have no particular axe to grind with people who wish to believe in the supernatural, but it does bother me that most of them feel the need to justify the belief and make it appear to be the product of rational reasonable thought. Why can’t Christians be comfortable with the path they’ve chosen without trying to dress it up and make it appear to be more than it is, that is, exactly what the writer of Hebrews said..”the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen”, in other words it is what you want to believe is true.

    There is no rational reason to assign God as the agency for things which have a natural explanation, for that matter, given there is no hard evidence for the supernatural it seems unreasonable to assume it is the cause for things which don’t yet have an explanation either.

    I don’t know if you saw the recent news story about the 5000 blackbirds that fell dead out of the sky in Arkansas recently. The current explanations are either lightning or hail, possibly fear from fireworks…we don’t know, and may never know, but to assume it was aliens in a space ship that dumped em out after some failed experiments is not rational, in the light of much more likely possibilities.

    Wouldn’t you agree?

  39. Karl

    I understand what you are saying and can understand why you say it.

    However, I do not believe that a natural explanation is the most reasonable explanation for everything. I find the creation of the universe is an example. You believe in eternally existing stuff that expands and contracts and just is. I believe that the stuff comes from an eternally existent creator who created the stuff. He is the uncaused first cause. Why is a naturalistic explanation the most logical?

    Also, could it be that God reveals more of His presence to those who are more interested in His presence? Could it be that my night time experience was the direct result of my faith and my interest in Him? Could it be that my faith opened the door for me to sense Him even when I was asleep? Somehow, I think you might say it was the TexMex I had for dinner although that usually results in nightmares.

    You say that the natural experience is the most logical. But it seems to me that man has been created with a spiritual radar which is seeking for something beyond ourselves. Was this just a evolutionary meme that causes us to stay in community? Of could it be programmed in us so that we may choose to seek after the One who put this in us?

  40. Dee,

    I can’t agree with you on that one Dee. Science has proven itself very capable in its ability to provide correct explanations for everything from sub-atomic particles, to DNA, to nuclear fusion, to quantum mechanics, to planetary motion, to dark matter, to dark energy, to gravity, to the electromagnetic force, and to a virtually limitless number of other things that only several hundred years ago where nothing but mysteries that we either weren’t even aware of, or never thought we could understand.

    When science talks about things like an expanding or collapsing universe, or what happened nano-seconds after the big bang, or cosmic radiation, they are not pulling a rabbit out of their collective bums. It is based on physics and mathematics and while it may not yet be 100% provable (is anything?), at least it has support, makes predictions which are verifiable (or falsifiable), and aligns with what we do know from other disciplines.

    There is no reason to suppose that, science, given it’s track record will not be able to eventually answer the questions of the origins of life and the origins of the universe that we live in. But even if you are right, even if there simply isn’t enough information available to make an intelligent prediction about how our universe came about, it is still not reasonable or rational to all of a sudden jump ship and grab the brass ring of the supernatural simply because there is a lack of information.

    It really is different from the blackbirds only in scale, but not in principle. Just because there is not enough information to ascertain why the blackbirds fell from the sky, does not all of a sudden make the idea rational that God is the cause.

    P.S.

    You mentioned God could be revealing himself more fully to those who seek His presence. Remember things can be “possible” without being rationale or reasonable. Pick any event at all, I’m sure you could invent alternate explanations for why that event happened, all them within the realm of “possibility”, yet no rational person would really buy any of those alternate possibilities over the originally proposed one.

    My wife cuts the grass every Saturday during the summer. One Saturday I come home to find the grass was cut as usual, but I decide to believe that a stranger in a neighboring state was driving by my yard, sight seeing, and decided the grass needed to be cut, so he got the lawnmower out of the garage and cut my grass while my wife was still sleeping.

    Yes, it’s silly, but that’s exactly the point…it is a possible scenario, there is nothing in that explanation that couldn’t have happened, but it is not logical or reasonable to buy into that theory instead of believing that my wife got up and cut the grass, or maybe the landlord.

    So the bottom line is, could there be a supernatural being responsible for the creation of the universe and your perception of God’s presence…I guess its “possible”, but it is far more likely that the universe has a natural explanation (since everything in it seems to have one), and it is much more likely that your perception was no more than normal waking from deep sleep or a REM cycle, combined with a desire of your sub-conscious to find some peace and tranquility in a time of great stress. Things like that happen to millions of people all the time.

  41. Karl
    Hold your britches!! I had to write a post, had a major appointment with an insurance guy that lasted 2 hours, made a pork tenderloin with kapusta and my firefighter daughter showed up for a visit. I’m good but not that good. I never say die so will write back in a bit.

  42. Hi Karl

    I absolutely knew you were kidding. Hence my response. Kapusta is a cabbage dish made with cabbage, sauerkraut, mushrooms, onion, garlic, olive oil and bitter. It is a Russian dish that my Russian grandmother (Babchi) taught me to make before she died. It is awesome with pork. I learned to make a number of traditional dishes for which I am grateful.

    I think that this is the crux of your argument. “There is no reason to suppose that, science, given it’s track record will not be able to eventually answer the questions of the origins of life and the origins of the universe that we live in. But even if you are right, even if there simply isn’t enough information available to make an intelligent prediction about how our universe came about, it is still not reasonable or rational to all of a sudden jump ship and grab the brass ring of the supernatural simply because there is a lack of information.”

    Here is the bottom line-something is eternal-be it the universe or the Creator of the universe. Science only scratches at the tip of a vast collection of knowledge-so vast that it is beyond comprehension-even to scientists. It is so vast that, in my opinion, it will never be fully understood by man. Man is a finite being with a finite understanding. How do humans wrap their heads around eternal, infinite, etc.?

    I think the word “supernatural” is a term that attempts to encompass that which is beyond our understanding. What if there is a God who is the Creator? We say that something is supernatural because we don’t understand it. In fact, it could be that atheists are just as guilty of applying the supernatural label to something that they don’t understand or, perhaps, they don’t want to understand. Could it be a convenient label to get rid of something that is uncomfortable? Is it a way to poo poo the idea of a natural something that science cannot comprehend?

    If such a Being exists, the creation is natural because He is a creator God and that is a natural part of His being. His intervention would be natural because He is who He is. For such a Being to raise someone from the dead is natural because it is part of His capability. For humans, it is out of our experience, our science, our limited understanding and so some would deem it unnatural because it simply cannot be. But to this Creator, it is simply natural-part of who He is.

    For me, it would be supernatural to believe that self existent, unaware “stuff” formed itself into universes, galaxies, etc. It seems to me that mankind has been created with an awareness of a Creator. It has existed in all cultures throughout all time. Now, I know some of the atheists will claim that this belief is part of evolutionary memes that are no longer needed, kind of like an appendix. That such a belief was imprinted on memes by an impersonal evolutionary process in order to bring order and cooperation to people groups.

    I actually think that it would be natural to be given such a belief in order for us to be willing to seek for and interact with a Creator. In fact, it seems somewhat intentional to me, just as the universe, and our own world, seems intentional to me. So, what is natural and what is supernatural? These seem to be labels that all men, believers or not, use to explain things they cannot explain.

    Finally, the experience in my room brought me closer to an understanding of a God who is there. Only a schizophrenic could manufacture such a feeling of peace, light and presence in the face of a one’s tiny child afflicted with a malignant brain tumor.I believe it was something else. I guess I’ll leave that up for your to decide.

  43. Dee,

    I think you are misrepresenting the word supernatural. You stated that “We say that something is supernatural because we don’t understand it. In fact, it could be that atheists are just as guilty of applying the supernatural label to something that they don’t understand or, perhaps, they don’t want to understand.”

    But I would disagree, we don’t label something as “supernatural” because we do not understand it. I don’t understand how an internal combustion engine works, and while it may appear to be magic to a non mechanic I certainly wouldn’t relegate it to the realm of the supernatural.

    If the universe is, in fact, eternal..that would preclude, by definition, a creation of any kind, God included, and if it is not eternal, why could it not have a natural existence.

    Saying that God is “part of nature” is also, I believe, a misuse of what words mean. If something is part of nature, in any rational definition of the word, then it is detectable, it has properties, it occupies space, it reacts to stimuli, it is how we differentiate that which is real from that which is imaginary.

    I don’t think anyone needs to be schizophrenic to feel a sense of warmth and comfort in the middle of a crises, in fact, I would argue that it is pretty normal. I have been in many true emergency situations and I know for a fact, it was not uncommon to feel a sense of tranquility and calmness in the midst of it, and not feel the actual stress until well after the event….the brain can do wonderful and marvelous things.

    If you haven’t already seen this, it’s not religious at all in nature, but is a short and fascinating presentation by a psychiatrist on how our brains synthesize happiness…while it’s not exactly our topic, I think in principle it may apply.

    http://mainereason.blogspot.com/2010/10/why-are-we-happy.html

    I definitely want to try Kapusta it sounds awesome!!

  44. Karl

    Something is eternal-whether God or the universe. You assume that it is nature because you believe that any rational person would assume that nature is all that there is because it must be detectable, have properties, occupy space, react to stimuli.

    However, you are the one defining the properties from your own understanding of what you see around you. You would agree that there are probably many surprises waiting for us out on the far reaches of the universe. Yet, you don’t know it, have never seen it. You assume it from what you have seen around you. Yet you do not really know. Everything that you now know in terms of life on this world could be turned upside down because of things you have never dreamed of.

    In Christianity God did physically occupy space on this world at one time. He was tangible, one could touch Him. God deigned to enter this time and space in order that we, who are bound by nature, could perceive Him.I know you don’t believe that Jesus but I do. He is a God who anticipated objections to nature and sense and so entered the world to give us something we could understand.

    Could you define what you mean by “supernatural?” I am not trying to deliberately misrepresent the word. In fact, I have thought long and hard about it.

    As for my experience, I had broken down with my daughter’s diagnosis. In fact, I was able to shore myself up so that I could be the right kind of mother I needed to be. I was doing just that but I still cried at night at times. Something unique happened that night that was never repeated. I still cried myself to sleep sometimes. I still felt panic at times. But, I felt God’s presence with me in a tangible sense. You say it has to be some chemical reaction that took place in my brain that sent some sort of endorphin rush. I say it wasn’t that- it was something different, unexpected, and not repeated.

    I know this will drive you nuts but perhaps what happened was a very natural event. It was the love of a Father for His child at a low time, perhaps the lowest. Maybe it was the natural intervention of an eternal God.

    Kapusta
    I large can of sauerkraut, drained.
    I head of shredded cabbage
    8 ounces of chopped mushrooms (pref brown)
    1 chopped onion
    2 chopped garlic cloves
    1/2 stick butter
    1/4 cup olive oil
    salt and pepper to taste
    Combine all in a large pot, cover with water and boil down until all the water is evaporated and the cabbage begins to lightly brown.(About1/12-2 hours). It has a mild, unique taste.

    To reheat, fry up in a saucepan with a bit of butter. Can be frozen. Serve with pork or sausage.

    When consuming, think of my Babchi Nalesnik who came to this country and couldn’t speak a lick of English and worked in the textile mills to put food on the table for my father.

  45. Karl
    Fascinating yet not surprising. It would make for a good post. As you can well imagine, I have a different take. I think you sent it to me because of his last name. Absolutely no relation-either in thought or biology.

  46. I bet you also ate a lot of stuff with ‘beets’, right? I have a Russian friend (from Moscow) who moved here after the wall fell and there was a sudden freedom to apply for visa’s. They decided to come here…and within a month were here…and stayed.

    She introduced me to beet salad and borscht. I have been amazed at how good beets are for us yet we hardly ever incorporate them into American dishes.

  47. Yes. But i get a medium one not a large. However, trust me, it boils down because it releases the water. TWW-evangelical busybodies and chefs extraordinaire!

  48. Lydia

    I grew up eating beets,especially in borscht although steamed as well. Here is hint. If you or your kids don’t like beets, you can often substitute cabbage or rinsed sauerkraut in a recipe. Also, some supermarkets are now carrying the golden beets which are very good and I can sneak them into recipes and my family, no beet lovers they-shame on their Russian genes-have no idea.

  49. Lydia

    PS You can cook them, puree them and drain off excess fluid. Then you can add them to homemade bread recipes, kind of like potatoes. There is no beet flavor, the bread has a bit of sweetness and there’s all sorts of vitamins. Also, the bread has a red hue and is very pretty. Just another tip from the evangelical chef!