Eddie Long – “This is Spiritual Warfare!” No Kidding!

“The accomplice to the crime of corruption is frequently our own indifference”      Bess Myerson
 

Today I had an interesting conversation with a friend whose family was subjected to serious abuse by a former church. I can personally vouch for the reality of their situation. She said, “I just can’t trust anyone in the church. I know that sounds bad but I can’t help it.” After thinking about that for while, I said, “Actually I think that is a legitimate Christian response.” Have I gone off reservation? I think not. My friend is actually a realist who no longer sees church leadership through Barbie sunglasses. Instead she is viewing church polity through the clear perspective of the Bible.

 

The Long situation is one example of the validity of my friend’s new attitude. The following includes several concerning trends that I have seen in other churches troubled by church scandals. Perhaps it is these attitudes that contribute to possibility of sin in the pulpit.

 

1. My pastor and church are darn near perfect.

As we have investigated Eddie Long’s situation, as well as other similar circumstances, we have become increasingly surprised by the response of the typical congregation, which defends its pastor as if he is Jesus, incapable of sin. Where in Scripture is this ever implied? Instead we read in Romans 3:23: All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” No exemptions appear to exist for admired pastors and Christian celebrities.

A misunderstanding of the nature of sin can affect how a congregation views its pastor. He becomes God’s anointed man, which somehow places him above the average churchgoer. Such a misinterpretation of Scripture also affects how they treat those who would be so bold as to attempt to bring justice and truth in an abusive situation. Scorn and insults are often heaped upon those who speak the truth when it conflicts with the congregation’s image of the pastor who they perceive is just a little lower than God.

This occurs in instances of cognitive dissonance. The faith of the congregation is not based on the truth of the Scripture and the perfection of Jesus. In reality, in some congregations, the faith of the congregation is based on a charismatic pastor. It may be predicated on the numbers of those who attend the church. In today’s churches, successful faith means thousands in attendance in a church on a given Sunday.
Adherence to the status quo in this type of church is enhanced by a mentality that allows the church membership to embrace a “we” (good Christians at this church) against “them” (anyone outside the church who does not agree with our way of doing things). A tribal cohesion is thus achieved. But, is this really what is meant by unity in the body of Christ or is it  just another ho-hum social club?

The pastor is the general and the people follow him in the war against….well, name the sin du jour (homosexuality, abortion, liberalism, atheists, Mormons, Islam, Catholics, etc). If the pastor turns out to be a pedophile or extortionist, this causes angst in the congregation since their identity is based on the perfect church and pastor. So, something must give. And that, unfortunately, can be the truth. This is how cognitive dissonance works.

 

2. Those who report the sin are troublemakers and probably liars. Also, the devil may be responsible. Never, ever is the pastor or the church leadership to blame.

Those who speak the truth must be discredited and destroyed for the sake of harmony, both in the life of the individual congregant as well as the church. How many times have we heard the canard that “unity of the Body” must be preserved at all costs? In fact, I have seen many instances in which unity is valued over truth. So deacons cover up for a pastor who is having an affair. They believe that they are protecting the church and its ministry. They even make the excuse that scandal could harm the body of Christ.

We have news for these guys. They need to read their Bibles. It is filled with stories of great leaders who fell and churches that allowed sin in its ranks. Guess what? The church has survived the millennia. Jesus is quite capable of maintaining the body through all sorts of trials. They do believe this, don’t they? Or do they think it is up to them?

Then these leaders settle for that old saw, “We all need to just “get along.” Forget that stuff about a deep, abiding love that is based on following the One who is called The Truth. We settle for mediocrity instead of radical transformation.

Also, the devil is often a good excuse when scandal hits. In this line of thinking, this indignity is not caused by personal sin; it is caused by the evil one. It is comforting to be able to place the blame elsewhere. In his second appearance before his congregation this week, Bishop Eddie Long stated emphatically, “This is spiritual warfare!” He’s right but not in the way that he defines it. Here’s the clip:

 

3.If it isn’t illegal, it isn’t important.

I know of situations in which boys were molested by a pedophile in church. In some instances, they were treated as liars before the scoundrel was caught. After the arrest, these boys were not even offered counseling. A pastor once commented to some parents of these boys who were sexually abused, “You know, if they were only 18 we wouldn’t be sitting here.” There were others who said these teenage boys brought the abuse on themselves and even enjoyed it.

Why would the pastor think that, if the abuse happened to an 18-year-old boy, the age of my son, there wouldn’t be a problem? No problem? A pastor who uses his power and adulation to manipulate an insecure young man into providing sexual favors is not seen as a problem???

In this situation, Long is accused of having sex with boys aged16 and above. 16 is considered the age of consent in the state of Georgia. He is accused of having sex with boys from a school that is affiliated with his church. These boys say he told them to call him, “Daddy.”

These boys were most likely poor and had few role models. Imagine manipulating these boys into thinking he was treating them as sons. He reportedly even gave them gifts. These acts may not be illegal but they are immoral and any pastor who doesn’t think so has no business pastoring a church. Shame on them! Can you imagine such a pastor standing before God and saying that it was legal?? ! Mercy!

 

4. A hyper-authoritarian pastor should a raise red flag.

A comment received yesterday from BDW at TWW is most insightful.

“I found a fascinating chapter on Eddie Long in a book titled The Ethics and Aesthetics of Black Televangelism by Jonathan Walton (who has been quoted several times in the CNN Religion columns about Long). I was able to read most of the chapter via Google Books.
Long really is a great example of what absolute authoritarian leadership looks like especially in the megachurch world of charismatic/pentecostal Christianity. I read where Long described himself as merely a “hired preacher” who only become a “pastor” once the Deacon board “relinquished control” of New Birth to him.

Long is right when he says New Birth is a corporation. But it’s a corporation that lacks any level of oversight from its shareholders. “
 

BDW then went on to refer us to an article entitled: Eddie Long Has Apostolic Authority Over 79 Churches in Georgia and More Nationwide

"The current Dominionist trend results in congregations where members are supposed to submit to the almost absolute authority of their anointed leaders, a change that removes the congregation as a balance or check to the power of the pastor. Long claims spiritual authority over more than his New Birth mega-church in Lithonia, Georgia. He is the 'apostolic authority' over churches in The Father's House network, including 79 churches in Georgia alone and a total of approximately 275 in 38 states. Many evangelical churches are shifting away from their traditional democratically governed structures

When Haggard's scandal became public it was not his New Life congregation but his apostolic Overseers who had the authority to remove or discipline him. According to Article Thirteen of the bylaws of the nonprofit corporation (as of 2001), the "sheep" or congregants never pass judgment on the shepherd; only the Overseers have authority over him and "may discipline him in any way they deem necessary."

Once a church has shifted to this model, the pastor can no longer be hired and fired by the membership but becomes the authority over his flock. Only his overseers or spiritual authority figures can remove or discipline him. In these networks an apostle (or bishop in some cases) provides spiritual or apostolic "covering" over others".

 

Hyper-authoritarianism is taking today’s evangelical churches by storm. The current darling of the SBC/Reformed set, CJ Mahaney, has called himself the “Head Apostle” of his family of churches known as Sovereign Grace Ministries. Although he rarely uses this title now, most likely trying to avoid irritating those who endorse his books and provide him paid speaking engagements, he has never renounced such a title. One only needs to read a few stories over at SGM Refuge to get an idea of iron -fisted control of these congregations.

This sort of pastor answers to no one but himself. There is great danger in being “the guy in charge.” One’s eyes easily stray from Jesus as the Author of our salvation to becoming the next Mr. Big Shot, the guy in charge. There is a long sad history of the ability of power to corrupt.

 

5. A pastor who becomes rich off of the tithes of his church members is most likely abusing them in other ways.

Many in Long’s congregation are indigent, which leads us to suspect that he is a people user who believes that his congregation exists to take care of him and his needs. This sort of thinking can easily leak over to other forms of gratification such as sexual. This sort of man is not a pastor but a ruler. When Congress decided to investigate him, his followers should have taken notice. Instead, who did they attack? No brainer: the godless Congress.
From start to finish, the Long saga is rife with concerns and we fear this story will end badly. However, it is important to realize that Long is not the only culprit here. Surely, there are those around him who knew that there were issues with him. The fact that Congress was looking into his monetary situation should have spurred those folks to action.

 

It is time for those sitting in the pews to take some responsibility for allowing these pastors to run wild. But that would mean admitting that the church and the pastor are not necessarily acting in the best interests of the Body of Christ. Some people have difficulty in admitting that the god they have been serving looks nothing like the God of Scripture.

My friend has learned a hard lesson at the hands of her former church. All men are sinners and capable of dreadful actions, even pastors. Perhaps we, as the church, need to take a Ronald Reagan approach to how we view our leaders: Trust but verify. We should also remember that we can only serve one God but He will never let us down.
 

For further information, we have provided some videos to keep you up to date with this Goliath in Gucci.

There have been many news stories, and here’s a link to keep you up-to-date.

 

Two years ago Long’s church produced a YouTube in which he tells his folks they need to tithe in order to eat. Note the manipulation.

 

Finally, Eddie shows off his muscles and acting ability.Here is the link.

[Mod edit – fixed broken link]

 

 

Lydia’s Corner: For the weekend: GENESIS 15:1- GENESIS 24:67

Comments

Eddie Long – “This is Spiritual Warfare!” No Kidding! — 30 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    “I just can’t trust anyone in the church. I know that sounds bad but I can’t help it.” After thinking about that for while, I said, “Actually I think that is a legitimate Christian response.” Have I gone off reservation? I think not. My friend is actually a realist who no longer sees church leadership through Barbie sunglasses. Instead she is viewing church polity through the clear perspective of the Bible.”

    She can join my club. And mine is not limited to one church but over a long period of time consulting in Christian marketing in mega churches and in para church organizations. Most of them are corrupted. And it is because the ‘very system is corrupt’. I have seen very decent well intentioned people who loved the Lord become part of the corruptoin over time. They convinced themselves it was for unity and peace and to spread the Gospel. But they lied to themselves. There is only spiritual unity. (have nothing to do with evil deeds)

    It took me a long time to figure that out about the very system being corrupt. But the Body was “institutionalized” by men early on and from that took on worldly characteristics that we now think are “Christian”. From the church state to church as a business enterprise…it is all worldly and has nothing to with Christ.

    Anyone notice that we are no longer taught to go out and share the Gospel but now everything is geared toward ‘inviting people to church”? We are doing it backwards and it is for a marketing reason. To grow churches, increase attendance, more money, bigger buildings, more staff, more followers…. But some of us are finding out that growing churches is not always growing the kingdom. But just the opposite…we are helping to make more two fold sons of hell.


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    Excellent post, Dee!

    Lydia,

    Your comment should make ALL of us THINK (and I’m not referring to John Piper’s new book which features a glowing endorsement by CJ Mahaney).


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    “For further information, we have provided some videos to keep you up to date with this Goliath in Gucci.”

    Classic!


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    From Stop Baptist Predators blog:

    Al Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, provided an example of how some Southern Baptists are now trying to distance themselves from Eddie Long’s kind of “Baptist.” On Mohler’s blog, he wrote about the Long scandal and said this:

    “Many of these independent mega-church pastors are defacto dictators, totally without accountability structures. The congregations lack the discipline of a denomination and the pastor or leaders often lack any accountability at all.”

    Do you see what Mohler is saying? He’s suggesting that, because Southern Baptists have “the discipline of a denomination,” their churches are less likely to have the sort of scandal that Eddie Long’s church has.


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    You know, Junkster’s idea for a video a day might work when we have these guys producing videos crying for a laugh.


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    Lydia

    Christianity Today just did a cover story on Mohler.I plan to do a post on this next week. It says that Time magazine calls him the
    “Intelectual” of the Christian world. But, I am not sure if Time was being complimentary or tongue in cheek. I am going to have a little fun with this.

    In fact, I may add your comment. Is this the denomination that allows churches to hide pedophiles and rapists and refuses to start a data base. The SBC only disciplines those churches who have women as pastors. They could care less about the kids. It’s them womin causing the problems, dadgumit.

    Mohler has been on our radar prior to starting this blog. I believe he, and strangely enough Patterson (who is no Calvinist) are amongst the chief architects for the disaffection of many from the SBC. I know, I am one.


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    Lydia
    I know a church in the area that has 90 paid staff for about 2000 (at best) attendees. Yet there is little contact between members and the “paid workers.” There is something wrong with this. Even that guy at Dove Outreach had an associate pastor along with a few others for a congregation that was pitiful.

    The church that I now attend has a slim staff and has the members form the leadership teams to cover various areas of service. It is more decentralized, to use business lingo.
    However, decentralized does not mean no one is in charge. There is this person, know as the Holy Spirit, that keeps things in check.

    I had a conversation with Ed Young Jr years ago. He refused to let any Sunday school teacher allow for questions in class.His mantra was “if you let them ask questions you never know what questions they will ask.” I said, “That’s cool-I love off beat questions.” Then I said to him (and his wife) “The reason you don’t want questions asked is because you have people teaching Sunday school who you know are not even committed Christians. So you give them a script, they read it and life is OK. Too bad you don’t let the Holy Spirit run things.”

    Needless to say, we were getting ready to vamoose to Pete Briscoe’s church.


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    Lydia:

    That’s hilarious. He knows as well as you and I that, although a Southern Baptist church is associated with the denomination, they are autonomous and have no accountability from the denomination at all. Sure, they vote on what to believe, but that doesn’t make you believe it or obey it. And if a pastor is sinning in the denomination, they leave it to the individual church to deal with it. What a bunch of bologna. It sounds like he’s just marketing his denomination.


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    Michael
    Have you heard the new song by Michael W Smith called Leave? Its about abuse in the church. I will link to it on Monday. AWareness of abuse is on the rise. However, Mohler is just another ho hum patriarchalist (is that a word?) who believes his own press. I intend to deal with him on Tuesday. I believe it is men like him who cause pastors to believe in their own authority which I believe leads to abuse in the church. I fully expect to irritate some folks.


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    Yes, Al Mohler and Company played a HUGE part in my finally deciding to leave the SBC after being a member for 10 years. Extensive research about the following contributed to this decision:

    Eternal Subordination of the Son to the Father (ESS)

    Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood

    A ‘Push for Early Marriages and Lots of Babies

    Patriarchy (disguised as Complementarianism)

    Young Earth Creationism

    “Singles’ Ministry is an ‘abomination'”

    Cozy Relationship with C.J. Mahaney

    and, of course, Five Point Calvinism


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    For our readers who may not be familiar with ESS doctrine, the “Eternal Subordination of the Son (Jesus Christ) to the Father (Almighty God – the Father)”, here’s an article on the Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood website to enlighten you. This is one of the numerous resources I have read on ESS.

    http://www.cbmw.org/Blog/Posts/Eternal-Subordination-of-the-Son-The-Basics-Part-I

    FYI – many Christians, including your humble blog queens, consider ESS to be heresy.


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    Dee:

    No, I have not heard the song, yet, but I look forward to hearing it. I’m glad to hear that awareness of spiritual abuse is on the rise, as it should be.


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    “And if a pastor is sinning in the denomination, they leave it to the individual church to deal with it. What a bunch of bologna. It sounds like he’s just marketing his denomination.”

    Not any more. It depends on the sin, though. Steve Gaines was not put out of the convention to keeping a pedophile minister of prayer on staff without telling the congregation he had raped his son years before. And the son had gone to Gaines to tell him about his dad and ask that he not keep him on staff.

    Gee, Gaines was given speaking engagments in the SBC to buck him up over the scandal. However, a Baptist church in Ga that had a women minister was disfellowshipped.

    They don’t mind coddling pedophiles but a woman pastor? Now, that is the real sin. Never mind the kids…they don’t tithe anyway.


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    Deb:

    It’s interesting that there seems to be no way to comment and have open debate about these topics on Mohler’s page or on the CBMW’s. Big surpise. Maybe they can’t handle their, “authority,” being questioned.

    Regardless, some of these issues are tough to resolve because when you discuss one of these, many more subjects are brought into the equation. They are clearly secondary issues, except possibly the theological questions embedded in the ESS theology. We could kick that around for months and years.

    I agree with many of their points but disagree with an equal amount. However, my belief is that they are well-intentioned, although misguided on many issues.

    I am thankful that there are Southern Baptist churches around, but their Southern Baptistness is NOT why some of these churches or good. It’s because some of the people in these churches actually have vital relationships with God. They hear Him, obey Him, follow Him, and have theology grounded in what He has revealed to them. In many ways, it’s the Southern Baptistness that is the hindrance, hanging around their necks like a weight. I guess what I’m trying to say is, wouldn’t it be great if those in the SBC churches would forsake their Southern Baptistness, while at the same time, still attending their SBC church. But they have become more like Catholics, whose Catholicism has become more important to them than their Christianity.


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    Michael
    I plan to do a post on Mohler on Tuesday. Mohler gives the illusion of an intellectual yet I think he is a pseudo-intellectual and I plan to discuss my dismay with his handling of things in the SBC. Christianity Today did a cover story on him and I have a few things to add, as you can well imagine.


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    Lydia
    I fully plan to say exactly that in my post on Tuesday. Tomorrow I am going to look at Michael W Smith’s new song on abuse and discuss how this relates to the discussions ongoing here at TWW.
    There is one issue that gets my blood boiling and that is pedophilia and the church. I have seen the corruption with cover up in these situations with my own eyes and am shocked that the church would throw children under the bus. Yet, it is clear that they do.


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    Michael said:
    “It’s interesting that there seems to be no way to comment and have open debate about these topics on Mohler’s page or on the CBMW’s. Big surpise. Maybe they can’t handle their, “authority,” being questioned.”

    Very astute observation! I have pointed this out myself before. Oh, but you can send Mohler a “private” e-mail to let him know what you think.

    Please don’t misunderstand my disassociation from the SBC. I know some wonderful Southern Baptists who are very dear to me. It’s just that I have looked deeper at the trends which we discuss here, and I am deeply troubled by what I have discovered. Fortunately, we now have the internet, and Dee and I are so grateful for our 21st century Gutenberg Press!

    We are grateful for your loyalty, Michael. God bless!


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    It’s worth noting that C.J. Mahaney is the Vice Chairman of CBMW’s Board of Directors. Click on “About Us” at the CBMW website to see who endorses this organization.


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    Thank you for mentioning the song. I just listened to it, and I’m impressed and moved. It’s been a long time since I heard a contemporary Christian song that was willing to deal with real pain and suffering that way. It reminded me a lot of Michael Kelly Blanchard. I’d bet you a non-trivial quantity that that doesn’t make it to Christian Radio (though I suppose they’ve surprised me before).


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    This is the first I’ve heard of this ESS “doctrine”. I have done some reading online this morning, starting with the CBMW link, and I am still confused. How exactly does female submission have anything to do with the eternal subordination of the Son to the Father? I think Paul was pretty clear in his writings about wives being submissive to their husbands…. so the Trinity gets thrown in there how again??

    And after reading the LONG 5 part article on CBMW, I still don’t understand how anyone can read the Scripture references given and come up with such a strange viewpoint.

    So, Deb & Dee, can you tell me why you believe this “doctrine” is heresy with Scripture refs? Maybe that will complete the circle for me. I have to say that this one has thrown me for a loop!! 🙂 Thanks, ya’ll!


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    We believe that this was answered at the Council of Nicea which dealt with the heresy that Jesus was created by God the Father and therefor different in essence. The Trinity is different in function but equal in essence. The Son is not subordinated to the Father throughout eternity but this crowd says that the Father sent the Son and therefore the Son submits HImself. They claim this goes on and on for eternity.Frankly this all a smokescreen for patriarchalism which subordinates women to men for eternity.
    It is important to realize that they do not get into the Father submitting Himself to the Son. Therefore, since the Father does not submit, it appears to this easily deceived woman that they have set up a new hierarchy which they will vigorously deny. I m looking forward to visits from the patriarchal crowd.


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    Here are some more links that might help better than CBMW because they believe in ESS. Other resources are 2 books written Kevin Giles that refute everything the CBMW writers use to try and prove ESS is tradition. (Hint: They never quote fully the early church fathers. They EDIT quotes. Watch out for that. CBMW is notorious for editing out what they do not like)

    Eternal Subordination of the Son:

    Under Much Grace Blog [Cindy Kunsman] > A Brief Overview of the Development of Eternal Subordination of the Son Doctrine: What You Must Believe to Fully Embrace the Danvers Statement

    Under Much Grace Blog [Cindy Kunsman] > New Trinity Video Challenges the Doctrine of Eternal Subordination of Christ

    From this blog …

    And What Is It About Patriarchy That Scares Us?

    Growing Semi-Arianism in the SBC and the Consequences for Women If Left Unchallenged

    Semi-Arianism Masquerading as Orthodoxy: A Baptist Scholar on the Trinity Weighs in On “Eternal Subordination”

    My Prayer For Miss Courtney Tarter: “That One Day, by God’s Grace, You May Recover from Your Recovery”


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    oops. the links did not transfer. The bottom 4 are from Wade’s blog. The top 2 are from Undermuchgrace blog.

    What is tricky about the ESS folks is that they start out saying they believe the Trinity is equal in “essence” but then go on to teach that the “roles” are not equal (Note this is important: Not equal OUTSIDE the Incarnation). That is the subtle lie. But folks remember that first sentence and cannot see what they are doing.

    It is not unlike the comps who do the exact same thing saying woman are equal but have different roles. Problem is the roles are unequal. They do the exact same thing with the Trinity OUTSIDE the Incarnation. As if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are a lesser gods in the Trinity for eternity past and future.

    Hint: Look at Isaiah 9 and tell me how Jesus Christ, Lord of Hosts is described.

    Remember this: ALL cults tamper with the Trinity.


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    “It is important to realize that they do not get into the Father submitting Himself to the Son. Therefore, since the Father does not submit, it appears to this easily deceived woman that they have set up a new hierarchy which they will vigorously deny. I m looking forward to visits from the patriarchal crowd.”

    The ESS heresy is to prove submission even within the Trinity for all time, eternity past and future. What they do with it is map that to our earthly lives in Christ. That Jesus submits to the Father and women submit to men. A natural order that is even in the Trinity.

    Problem that no one calls them out on is that they also map the husband to Christ and the wife to the church in Eph 5. However, too many were wising up to that metaphor being taken way too far because men are part of the “Bride”, too.

    Enter tampering with the Trinity and the old Arian heresy being revived to try and prove natural hierarchies for all time even within the Trinity. As a matter of fact, there is an article over on CBMW that suggests we might be subordinate to our husbands in heaven. That, my friends, is Mormonism. That is how bad it is over there.


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    TrinityWatcher,

    I commend you for your diligence in reading those articles over at CBMW! Lydia is right about this organization, but I included the link to their website to show how CBMW promotes ESS.

    In case you’re interested, here are a few more resources:

    http://www.equip.org/articles/is-the-son-eternally-submissive-to-the-father-

    http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/justintaylor/2009/09/14/trinity-and-gender/

    Two years ago Trinity Evangelical Divinity School hosted a debate about ESS. Here is a summary of what was discussed:

    http://www.henrycenter.org/blog/?p=36

    Also, Christianity Today featured an article:

    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/octoberweb-only/141-53.0.html

    If you want to do more research, just Google “Eternal Subordination of the Son to the Father” and you will probably find more than you care to know.


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    One more thing, Trinity watcher, they do not tell you they are teaching ESS when they are teaching or preaching. You have to know the Word to catch it.

    And almost all of our seminaries are teaching this now. It will be one of the most subtle but most far reaching of false teaching of all time. People have no clue that it is even happening in their own church.

    And yet, The name that should be magnified is being subtly lessened: Jesus Christ


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    Thanks, ya’ll! I had already found and bookmarked the equip.org article for evening reading. Lydia, you nailed it for me – that they map it to our earthly lives.

    I truly don’t think I have heard any teaching about Jesus being subordinate to the Father, but perhaps I was not yet paying close attention. Won’t happen again!

    Interesting tidbit… one of the staff bloggers at CBMW interviewed at Trinity Southaven earlier this year. My understanding is that he wasn’t hired due to our financial issues. Things that make ya go hmmmmmmm.


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    ” truly don’t think I have heard any teaching about Jesus being subordinate to the Father, but perhaps I was not yet paying close attention. Won’t happen again!”

    I forgot to recommend Cheryl Schatz’ DVD about this heresy. On that DVD, you will hear actual audio quotes from SBC seminary professors who teach this. I am seeing it more and more on SBC blogs, too. As a matter of fact, more SBC pastors who blog are accusing those of us who think ESS is heresy, as Modalists or into Theism.

    The DVD is worth the money to study this issue.

    http://mmoutreach.org/trinity.htm


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    “It is not unlike the comps who do the exact same thing saying woman are equal but have different roles. Problem is the roles are unequal. They do the exact same thing with the Trinity OUTSIDE the Incarnation. As if Jesus and the Holy Spirit are a lesser gods in the Trinity for eternity past and future. Hint: Look at Isaiah 9 and tell me how Jesus Christ, Lord of Hosts is described. Remember this: ALL cults tamper with the Trinity.”

    Lydia, your posts are so spot-on it’s scary. What I can’t figure out about the complementarian crowd is why, oh why, can’t they leave well enough alone?? It’s not **good enough** for a wife to be completely submissive to her husband in *this* lifetime, they have to sentence her AND Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ to an eternal subordination??

    1 Corinthians 15:28 does state that “Now when all things are made subject to Him [Christ], then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that **God may be all in all.** [emphasis mine]. But where I sit, that’s a great and tremendous Leveling. I don’t believe that God will grant equality to all beings with Himself, *but I do know* that God WILL be all in all–and there’s no indicator here that there will be more of God in any one being than any other. A great Leveling, the most successful equalization that will ever occur–THAT’S what it looks like to me, as if hierarchy itself will disappear, except for the leading of the Father, the Lamb, and the Spirit…we won’t have the sun and the moon anymore for light, we will have the Lamb Himself for Our Light…oh, Maranatha! Come, Lord Jesus!

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