The Questions I Have About the Role of Women in the Church

 

"We look forward to the time when the Power of Love will replace the Love of Power. Then will our world know the blessings of peace".       William E. Gladstone

 

 

I am utterly confused. If, as some claim, the issue of the role of women in churches is defined in Scripture, why are so many Bible believing churches all over the map on this matter? I know conservative pastors who allow for women pastors and I know some churches that do not believe that women can even speak in church. I have seen Christian women’s groups that study systematic theology and other groups that spend much time discussion how to decorate the home in a Godly manner. And then there are some that do both.
 

I have had conservative pastors “diss” other conservative pastors for their views on women. Some allow female deaconesses; some do not. Some allow women to take up the collection. Other churches are adamantly opposed to such a thing, stating (as one pastor did to me when I asked why women couldn’t be ushers) that people would get the impression if women took up the collection that that church allowed <GASP> women deacons.
 

I have lots and lots of questions. This is not a diatribe on egalitarian versus complementarian because I have decided that I am going to become a “servantarian”. In other words, I would like to see both sexes outdo one another in being the servants to one another. Is this a cop-out? I’m sure you all will have an opinion.
 

I have a whole bunch of question and I am not being tongue-in-cheek when I ask them. I do not understand the rules for gender roles. Everyone who has a dog in this race claims to have the "correct" interpretation of Scripture. I have read the CBMW website, Wayne Grudem, and even CJ Mahaney. I have read the other sites that advocate for an egalitarian perspective. I have been reading the debates on this site and I become confuseder and confuseder (another made up word like Calvinista).

 

So, here are the questions.

-If it is said that women cannot be elders because the Biblical text says an elder must be the husband of one wife, then why can’t we have slaves if the text tells slaves to obey their masters?
 

-If one claims that a women cannot teach men, explain the rationale of the following situation. I went to a talk by a young assistant pastor on the role of Christians and government. He explained how Christians could participate in the political process and did not seem very well versed on the matter. Suppose Sarah Palin was a member of his church. Why would she not be allowed to teach both the pastor and the class on this subject? (No snarky comments- pro or con on Palin).
 

-What constitutes teaching? Does that mean inside of a designated church building after the class has been called to order and a prayer said? What about during a small group meeting, after it has been officially convened? If there is no pulpit involved, is it teaching?
 

What about this scenario? I am at dinner with several elders and their wives. An elder says he knows very little about the church in the Middle Ages. I then teach him and the others about the roles that monasteries played in preserving the Scriptures during this time period. He now has learned something from me and can say he was taught something by me. If he is in a church that does not allow women to teach, must he confess his sin?Of, does the venue matter? If it is in a restaurant, is it OK? But isn't the church really the gathering of the saints? So, is it off limits for a woman to teach if there is a group of Christians which includes men even if it is at a hockey game?
 

-Sheri Klouda had an earned doctorate from SWBTS. She was asked by Paige Patterson to come teach languages at SWBTS. She made sure there would be no problem because she was female. She moved her family and had a sick husband. Then, Patterson decided that she could no longer teach men Hebrew and fired her, leaving her without benefits.This caused tremendous hardships on the family. What is there in Scripture that would preclude a woman teaching a man Hebrew? Is Hebrew a “holy language” and therefore off limits for women.

7/22-Correction" Thank you Lydia for making this correction. I had forgotten that, although Patterson had NOT hired Klouda, he did tell her position was safe when he arrived at SWBTS. Remember she was caring for her sick husband. Lydia's quote, "

"Before Patterson let her go the process he used was cowardly. First he told her, her situation was safe. Then he demoted her to some short term job in the Library not doing what she was hired to do. (He was trying to make her leave)."


You can read the entire story here on The Wartburg Watch.

 

Could a woman teach students Hebrew in a secular university? Could a woman teach men Spanish in a Christian university? What is the difference between Hebrew and Spanish in the Scriptures? Does this mean a woman could not teach any language that any of the disciples or Jesus spoke? Would this include Aramaic and Greek?

 

-Since all truth is God's truth, shouldn't that mean no woman should teach any man anything? Why is 2+2= 4 any less or more truth than Nehemiah building the walls?
 

In this story, read how Paige Patterson joked about women when he said that he believed that everyone should own at least one (woman). Why did he feel comfortable saying this? Would he have made the same joke about African Americans? What is the difference about joking about women versus people of color? Is this joke appropriate? Why do I feel offended?
 

 

-The SBC International Missions Board recalled women missionaries that might have had authority over any man while on the mission field. So, if a woman was the head nurse in a mission hospital and had male nurses under her, was she in violation of that order? Or did that only apply if a woman was the teacher at a small Bible Institute and had a male functioning as a part time Bible teacher? If so, what would be the difference between the nurse and the teacher, assuming that the nurse used her position to train the male nurses how to witness while changing dressings?
 

-I have been told that the SBC is not really a denomination that rules its member churches and that each church functions independently. However, the SBC threw out a church that had a woman as a pastor. How could they since it is not in their purview? Also, why would they throw out a church that has a woman as a pastor but allow a church to remain that had a  a pastor stay in the pulpit after knowingly concealing a pedophile pastor in its midst? Is pedophilia a better sin than a woman pastor?
 

-If leaders such as Paige Patterson believe that women are the weaker sex and need to be protected by men, then why did he tell a woman to return to her physically abusive husband and rejoice when her husband beat her up?

 

-Why aren’t women forced to wear veils in church since it is an admonition of Scripture? Why do some women leaders of women’s groups wear flashy gold jewelry since it is discouraged in Scripture?
 

-If women are allowed to teach their sons as children, at what age must they no longer do so?
 

-God has given me a love for studying church history and systematic theology. Why would God give me this passion if I am not allowed to teach theology? Is it a trick of the Devil?
 

 

-It is said that women and men have separate roles but these differing roles are equal. Some would argue that this is not true. One reader asked the following question. “What do you think an African American would say if a white person told him that he was equal in every way to white people but he would not be allowed to teach or pastor a white person? Do you remember the old separate but equal schools? Were they really equal?
 

-I know a wonderful Christian family in which the mom is a gifted doctor and excellent communicator. She has served in a number of Christian organizations and is active in prolife causes. They have two children. The husband, sensing her gifts, decided to stay home with the children and encourage her career. They have raised two healthy Christian women and are a strong, stable family. What is wrong with them switching traditional roles?
 

-Since God created both men and women and both were made in the image of God, what are the unique traits of women that are found in the Godhead? What are the unique traits of men that are found in the Godhead? Did the fact the Jesus choose to come as a man and God is also referred to as the Father, reflect that that God is essentially male? Or am I getting this all wrong?
 

I do not believe that this matter is slam-dunk. I also agree with my good friend Junkster that this is a “B” or even “C” issue. I also believe that those who believe that they have the definitive answer are either arrogant or superficial in their approach.
 

I close with this silly example that I have read about on the Sovereign Grace survivors sites. It appears that Carolyn Mahaney was raised as a Mennonite. In this culture, there are many rules. One rule is that kitchen counters are to be absolutely bare. No coffee pot, no hand soap, no radio, etc. So, it became an obsession amongst the SGM women to keep their counters bare. Somehow, I believe that women were meant for much, much more.

 

Addendum 7/24-Thanks to Radiance for a link to Sarah Palin preaching behind a pulpit. I can't resist. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQIa3KGmlm0

 

Comments

The Questions I Have About the Role of Women in the Church — 59 Comments

  1. And then there was the time that my lovely wife saw her opportunity and took it. We were at a pre-revival service meal with a big-name, conservative (if not political) evangelist (I was leading the music). The subject of women’s service to the church came up, and the evangelist boldly declared that his was the only Biblical view allowable, and therefore, he never allowed a woman near his pulpit, ever. Dear wife looked him in the eye and said, “So that means that you are one of those male chauvinist pigs??” The silence was fabulous, the preacher and evangelist sputtered, and I roared with laughter—Oh, well, I didn’t want a career in evangelistic music anyway. Blessings..

  2. I think I get it. These are all examples of illustrating absurdity with absurdity, right?

  3. “She was asked by Paige Patterson to come teach languages at SWBT”

    Correction, Patterson did not hire her. He was at SEBTS when she was hired. (Story has it the trustees wanted him out which fits the pattern of the deacons and Criswell wanting him out of Criswell)
    I think it was Hemphill who hired her…but anyway, the SBC created a big position for Hemphill to leave SWBTS and made way for Patterson. The guy always lands on his feet. Must know where all the CR bodies are buried.

    So, SWBTS took money from Klouda for her PhD in Hebrew. Awarded her degree, hired her to teach and then Patterson comes along and decides it is a sin. Gee, I wish he would have viewed Gilyard’s behavior as sin and not treated his victims so badly when they went to him.

    Before Patterson let her go the process he used was cowardly. First he told her, her situation was safe. Then he demoted her to some short term job in the Library not doing what she was hired to do. (He was trying to make her leave)

    Wade Burleson has many posts on the events around what was done to Klouda. One can go there and search to read the sorted story and see how Patterson operates. Anyone who is fool enough to trust Patterson needs their head examined.

  4. Here is another question for our comp compatriots that I cannot seem to get an answer to. Since women cannot teach “men” in the Body, at what age do boys become men? Is it 13? 18? 21? How are women to know the cut off age that it would be sin to teach them?

  5. Here is another question. Since most comps believe that women cannot teach men because they are more easily deceived, then why would they want more easily deceived women teaching impressionable children? Or why would they want a woman who is easily deceived teaching other women who are also easily deceived?

  6. There must be a comp rule book.

    My daughter is involved in a college ministry at a public university. One week last spring the leaders of that ministry separated the guys from the gals and had speakers come and address each group. A professor from a Southern Baptist seminary spoke to the guys, and he told them something along these lines:

    If a guy goes to hear a woman such as Beth Moore speak publicly, then he is “in sin”, not the woman. Also, if four or more guys are taught Biblical principles by a woman, then they are “in sin”. Why “four”? One of my daughter’s guy friends attended the talk, and he told her about it because he was so bothered by it. It really came as a shock to him.

    Is this another comp rule?

  7. Dee,

    Great post, Great questions. I have appreciated the challenges of this discussion. I would say that I still have more questions than answers.

    We function so unlike the early church did, (it’s a show to go to today,) that it’s hard to get your bearings. All I can say is, I’m thankful for the women in my life, including the contributions the women on this blog make, so, keep it up.

  8. Michael,
    I trust people who have more questions than answers. We are dealing with the Almighty here and things are not always crystal clear. It is our heart that matters. I had a pastor who once said that we are “end results” people. But God is more interested in the road we take to get there.

  9. “We look forward to the time when the Power of Love will replace the Love of Power. Then will our world know the blessings of peace”. William E. Gladstone

    You don’t need money, don’t take fame
    Don’t need no credit card to ride this train
    It’s strong and it’s sudden and it’s cruel sometimes
    But it might just save your life
    That’s the power of love.
    — Hewey Lewis & The News

  10. Junkster

    OK. On the basis of this comment, I now declare you to be also quixotic which is derived from Miguel de Cervantes’ Don Quixote. Therefore I dub you -Don Junksterq.

  11. This is what I am trying to get through to people. It is much worse than they think. It is not about roles but PROHIBITIONS and if you break those prohibitions you are in sin. They have elevated comp doctrine to a primary salvic status. That, is a sin!

    They are teaching this stuff all over the place. Trust me they are. And they are really aiming at youth.

    First of all, why seperate them in the first place? (I know, I have heard all the reasons before but we are talking of spiritual things, right? There is not Jew or Gentile, male nor female…)

    Seperating them says there is a pink and blue Christianity. There isn’t. Our biological differences in gender are not spiritual differences. Otherwise, women cannot be Christlike.

  12. Lydia
    I like your last paragraph. I have never thought of it in that way before. I am so glad you comment here. I am learning so much from you.

  13. Wait a minute, Doc. Ah… Are you telling me that you built a time machine… out of a DeLorean??

  14. I meant the obvious contradictions in the possible answers, not the questions themselves. 🙂

  15. Actually Dee, this college ministry removed Mark Driscoll’s talk from its web site. I heard Mark’s address online (which my daughter heard in person) just once in February 2009 and when I tried to listen to it again it was gone (as if it never existed). I doubt this most recent talk by a seminary professor was recorded, but I’ll investigate.

  16. Yet another germane illustration of trying to get the tail to wag the doggie. I don’t think you’ll ever get a straight answer Lydia, the stuff you might get would be as complicated as the most severely convoluted Talmudic Mishnas.

  17. So, here are the questions.

    -If it is said that women cannot be elders because the Biblical text says an elder must be the husband of one wife, then why can’t we have slaves if the text tells slaves to obey their masters?

    These are not parallel as you must know. And of course this is not the only verse that people quote from the Bible on this issue. There is the one where Paul says that (along with all the other churches) he does not allow a woman to teach. There is the one about women keeping silent in church. there is the one about women not having authority in the church.

    -If one claims that a women cannot teach men, explain the rationale of the following situation. I went to a talk by a young assistant pastor on the role of Christians and government. He explained how Christians could participate in the political process and did not seem very well versed on the matter. Suppose Sarah Palin was a member of his church. Why would she not be allowed to teach both the pastor and the class on this subject? (No snarky comments- pro or con on Palin).

    What you describe here sure doesn’t sound like teaching in a church. It sounds like using a church building for teaching. Those are different.

    -What constitutes teaching? Does that mean inside of a designated church building after the class has been called to order and a prayer said? What about during a small group meeting, after it has been officially convened? If there is no pulpit involved, is it teaching?

    The church is not a building, but rather the congregation of the saved. It sure seems to me that what is being prohibited is “teaching with authority” to men. This is the kind of teaching that one is supposed to be very very careful about, as if you make a mistake your punishment is worse than otherwise. It is unfortunately something taken too lightly by many pastors, who will be under a greater condemnation (if I remember the passage correctly).

    What about this scenario? I am at dinner with several elders and their wives. An elder says he knows very little about the church in the Middle Ages. I then teach him and the others about the roles that monasteries played in preserving the Scriptures during this time period. He now has learned something from me and can say he was taught something by me. If he is in a church that does not allow women to teach, must he confess his sin?Of, does the venue matter? If it is in a restaurant, is it OK? But isn’t the church really the gathering of the saints? So, is it off limits for a woman to teach if there is a group of Christians which includes men even if it is at a hockey game?

    I would not consider this to be “teaching with authority” of the type I mentioned above.

    -Sheri Klouda had an earned doctorate from SWBTS. She was asked by Paige Patterson to come teach languages at SWBTS. She made sure there would be no problem because she was female. She moved her family and had a sick husband. Then, Patterson decided that she could no longer teach men Hebrew and fired her, leaving her without benefits.This caused tremendous hardships on the family. What is there in Scripture that would preclude a woman teaching a man Hebrew? Is Hebrew a “holy language” and therefore off limits for women.

    Patterson is an idiot.

    7/22-Correction” Thank you Lydia for making this correction. I had forgotten that, although Patterson had NOT hired Klouda, he did tell her position was safe when he arrived at SWBTS. Remember she was caring for her sick husband. Lydia’s quote, ”

    “Before Patterson let her go the process he used was cowardly. First he told her, her situation was safe. Then he demoted her to some short term job in the Library not doing what she was hired to do. (He was trying to make her leave).”

    You can read the entire story here on The Wartburg Watch.

    Could a woman teach students Hebrew in a secular university? Could a woman teach men Spanish in a Christian university? What is the difference between Hebrew and Spanish in the Scriptures? Does this mean a woman could not teach any language that any of the disciples or Jesus spoke? Would this include Aramaic and Greek?

    -Since all truth is God’s truth, shouldn’t that mean no woman should teach any man anything? Why is 2+2= 4 any less or more truth than Nehemiah building the walls?

    Teaching that Nehemiah built the walls is history. Interpreting what it means today for a congregation (with authority) is different. Teaching in a Sunday School is typically not done “with authority”, but I typically learn a lot more from Sunday School than I do from the pulpit. This is because of the “teach to the lowest common denominator” problem in most churches.

    In this story, read how Paige Patterson joked about women when he said that he believed that everyone should own at least one (woman). Why did he feel comfortable saying this? Would he have made the same joke about African Americans? What is the difference about joking about women versus people of color? Is this joke appropriate? Why do I feel offended?

    Patterson is an idiot.

    -The SBC International Missions Board recalled women missionaries that might have had authority over any man while on the mission field. So, if a woman was the head nurse in a mission hospital and had male nurses under her, was she in violation of that order? Or did that only apply if a woman was the teacher at a small Bible Institute and had a male functioning as a part time Bible teacher? If so, what would be the difference between the nurse and the teacher, assuming that the nurse used her position to train the male nurses how to witness while changing dressings?

    Here is a case where men have abandoned their calling and women have stepped in. It is reminiscent of the story of Deborah in the OT. I see no reason for women to be recalled from the field in this instance.

    -I have been told that the SBC is not really a denomination that rules its member churches and that each church functions independently. However, the SBC threw out a church that had a woman as a pastor. How could they since it is not in their purview? Also, why would they throw out a church that has a woman as a pastor but allow a church to remain that had a a pastor stay in the pulpit after knowingly concealing a pedophile pastor in its midst? Is pedophilia a better sin than a woman pastor?

    The SBC didn’t throw out the pastor – they threw out the church. That is the limit of what they can do.

    -If leaders such as Paige Patterson believe that women are the weaker sex and need to be protected by men, then why did he tell a woman to return to her physically abusive husband and rejoice when her husband beat her up?

    Patterson is an idiot.

    -Why aren’t women forced to wear veils in church since it is an admonition of Scripture? Why do some women leaders of women’s groups wear flashy gold jewelry since it is discouraged in Scripture?

    -If women are allowed to teach their sons as children, at what age must they no longer do so?

    What woman stops teaching (or trying to teach) their children at any age? Does this really happen?

    -God has given me a love for studying church history and systematic theology. Why would God give me this passion if I am not allowed to teach theology? Is it a trick of the Devil?

    I love a lot of things I don’t teach. Is this a trick question?

    -It is said that women and men have separate roles but these differing roles are equal. Some would argue that this is not true. One reader asked the following question. “What do you think an African American would say if a white person told him that he was equal in every way to white people but he would not be allowed to teach or pastor a white person? Do you remember the old separate but equal schools? Were they really equal?

    I think this is a red herring. “all men are created equal” is clearly not the case. They are equal before God (and the law theoretically). But the real question here is not “what would I like” but rather “what does God like”. This seems like the argument that you sometimes hear “I wouldn’t want a God like that”. I didn’t know we could chose. I thought we had to take Him as He is.

    -I know a wonderful Christian family in which the mom is a gifted doctor and excellent communicator. She has served in a number of Christian organizations and is active in prolife causes. They have two children. The husband, sensing her gifts, decided to stay home with the children and encourage her career. They have raised two healthy Christian women and are a strong, stable family. What is wrong with them switching traditional roles?

    This looks like a red herring as well… what does this have to do with women teaching with authority in the church? I don’t see anything wrong here.

    -Since God created both men and women and both were made in the image of God, what are the unique traits of women that are found in the Godhead? What are the unique traits of men that are found in the Godhead? Did the fact the Jesus choose to come as a man and God is also referred to as the Father, reflect that that God is essentially male? Or am I getting this all wrong?

    There are few places where God is referred to as female. One comes to mind, where He compares Himself to a hen gathering her chicks.

    I do not believe that this matter is slam-dunk. I also agree with my good friend Junkster that this is a “B” or even “C” issue. I also believe that those who believe that they have the definitive answer are either arrogant or superficial in their approach.

    I agree that it is a B or C issue. This is one of those things where I believe God has evidenced a preference, but we don’t live by the law any more, and it is a good thing. The law can’t provide a solution for every problem. The Spirit can. That said, I have never heard a good woman pastor. Of course I have heard few good men pastors. One problem in our culture, is that women who choose to be pastors must either not care what the Bible says about the issue (liberals), or care but think that the passages in the Bible that talk about the issue either are mis-interpretted or can be ignored for some reason. Since I disagree with the latter, I tend to suspect the interpretation that is given by those pastors.

    I close with this silly example that I have read about on the Sovereign Grace survivors sites. It appears that Carolyn Mahaney was raised as a Mennonite. In this culture, there are many rules. One rule is that kitchen counters are to be absolutely bare. No coffee pot, no hand soap, no radio, etc. So, it became an obsession amongst the SGM women to keep their counters bare. Somehow, I believe that women were meant for much, much more.

    As do I. and I think you will find few people who would disagree with women teaching women. There are 3 Billion women out there….

  18. me

    As always, you made me laugh! You and I are on the same page with Patterson.

    Write some more on the subject of the Godhead-male versus female traits. Do you believe that God is best expressed as a male? What are the male traits that differentiate God from the female traits. Since God chose to come as a male, what statement might He have been making about why he would not come as a female?

    What do you mean “speak with authority.” As a nurse, I can speak with authority and state that someone is in diabetic shock and therefore administer a treatment. As a woman, explain to me how I would avoid speaking with authority on Scripture. For example, Luther spoke about being saved by grace through faith. I then explain what he meant. How would I do this with and without authority.

    I have met two women pastors who I deeply respect. So does Pete Briscoe. They are very conservative yet disagree on this point. My guess is you would respect them far more than a few pastors in our past. Could it be that there are only “liberal” female pastors because only liberal churches have allowed this process? Could it be that in a conservative church that allows for female pastors one would find the females conservative?

    I know that the SBC through the whole church out because the whole church supported the female pastor. In the pedophile situation to which I am referring, the church chose to allow the pastor to continue in spite of discovering that he had covered for a pedophile on the staff. Therefore, shouldn’t the church have been thrown out?

    The example of the female doctor and house husband, there are many churches that would tell him that he was in sin to reject his god-given authority to provide for his family. There are even some who comment here who would say this. So, for some, it is a problem.

    As always I enjoy sparring with you. Just finished John the Balladeer and looooved it. We have the same taste in books which makes me wonder if this is a non-gendered trait! Some would say that women do not enjoy fantasy and sci fi. I certainly disprove this.

    Blessings, friend!

  19. Hi –
    Glad I could make you laugh.

    I have noticed that the groups that started letting women be pastors shortly afterward became more nad more liberal.
    The Presbyterians first “allowed” women pastors and then required them. (They required at least half a set of elders be women). Those people who liked this idea tended to be more liberal, which shifted the bias toward the liberal side. Next they started worshipping “Sophia” and denying the trinity, and then allowed homosexuality, and the latest has them allowing any type of practicing immorality as pastors in the church. You have the same sort of sliding in the Church of England.

    Clearly among the class “women who are pastors” you will find many more liberals than conservatives. Among the class “women who are elders” the same thing. Nose in the tent, you know.

    Now regarding God as masculine: C.S. Lewis has written extensively on this, and I would not try to do better. He notes (among other things) that the church (as a whole) is the bride of Christ. (Definitely feminine). He (and I) find that interesting.

  20. Hmmmmm … another doctrine to go along with “The Eternal Masculinity of the Son” — “The Eternal Femininity of The Bride”! Perhaps the reason why there won’t be any marriage in heaven is because all believers will be resurrected in female bodies. Not sure if the CBMW folks will go for that one, though…

  21. “I have noticed that the groups that started letting women be pastors shortly afterward became more nad more liberal.”

    Chicken or egg came first?

    It is like the comp argument that the feminization of the culture brings homosexuality and the whole slippery slope from women pastors to homosexual pastors. But wait! History shows us that Patriarchal culture have always been homosexual. Still are!

  22. Michael,

    I know you’re trying to be funny, but do you realize how utterly STUPID your comment sounds?

  23. Maybe not — since God created man first, then woman, maybe he did the same for the animals. The first hen could have been made from the rib of the first rooster.

  24. Junkster

    I have laughed at your last two comments. Thanks for bringing a smile to my face. You know, your thoughts are making me think about a satire on this issue.This time, instead of one individual I have the possibility or irritating CBMW, T4G, the Gospel Coalition, SBTS…the thought is very, very tempting.

  25. I was gonna say that about the rooster’s rib, Junkster.

    You know, the rooster does have quite a bit of responsibility in fulfilling its gender role…

  26. So true. The biggest problem with the current generation of poultry is hens who don’t know and keep to their place.

  27. Wait a minute. If creation order of all living things really means a level of importance then a squash is important than a Rooster.

    Wasn’t the garden planted before all the animals were created?

  28. A she squash?????There is a movie in here somewhere-or at the least- a satire.I feel it coming on….

  29. Dee,

    Since you’re into gardening, here’s some information about squash you might find interesting. By the way, are you growing squash this summer?

    The Summer Sex Life of Squash: How To Tell Between Male and Female Squash Blossoms

    “Read on for an enlightening trip into squash botany, with gender, sex, and fertilization featuring high on the program…

    Squash blossoms come in two genders: male and female. Only female squash blossoms mature into a squash. The male is just there to, well, fertilize them. As in, ahem, other parts of nature, the male blossoms rather outweigh and outnumber the female flowers. The females usually grow close to the center of the squash plant, squatting low on stubby stalks that, when fertilized, quickly balloon into miniature squash.

    The male, on the other hand, is showy and numerous. He grows on long stalks that wind throughout the plant, too; a male blossom will always be on the end of a much longer stalk than the female.”

    For more info, here’s the link: http://www.thekitchn.com/thekitchn/ingredients-vegetables/edible-squash-blossoms-how-to-tell-between-male-and-female-squash-blossoms-090060

    All kidding aside, isn’t our creator God AWESOME?!

  30. Dee said:

    “A she squash?????There is a movie in here somewhere…”

    Well, Veggie Tales had a “Madam Blueberry” in one of their videos. Why not Mademoiselle Squash for an upcoming episode?

  31. Deb,

    Bad mood today? Would YOU lighten up now? I’m glad Junkster read between the lines and caught on and was able to have fun with it, as was intended.

    “how utterly STUPID your comment sounds?”

    Do you realize how harsh and hurtful your comment sounds?

  32. Deb, Interesting on the gender of squash. That squash casserole I was planning is sounding less appealing by the minute.

    I am TRYING to grow tomato’s. So far, I have had 6 since planting the end of May. My dreams of homemade salsa are fast evaporating as there are no blossoms in sight.

    Now, do tomato’s have gender, too? Maybe that is my problem? Not enough pollination going on. :o)

  33. Deb,

    Great, I’m glad you’re having a good day.

    But, I think it’s ironic that you tell me to lighten up yesterday, then you come across so harsh today. That’s a double standard.

    By the way, my comment was not stupid, it was clever, but you might not understand comp humor.

  34. Lydia,

    We have a farm with over 350 acres of cotton and soybeans in cultivation. Pollination is VERY important to us! Maybe I can find out about tomatoes for you. My mom and dad have a bumper crop of them every summer!

  35. Michael,

    I purposely tried to get your attention with my blunt comment to help you understand how you sound when you address Lydia. And to be absolutely frank, I don’t care much for comp humor.

    I hope we can continue a thoughtful dialogue about some extremely important spiritual issues.

  36. Deb,

    I thought that might be the case. That’s fine. I know I need to tone it down a bit.

    However, it was either you or Dee that aptly pointed out that sarcasm was even used by Jesus and is an extremely effective means to drive a point home.

    After what seems to be endless attempts to have her acknowledge even basic, valid, scriptural points, ones that almost everyone on this blog would agree with, I thought I would try sarcasm to show how ridiculous the arguments she uses, simply, in my opinion, to avoid conceding ANY points.

    My conversations with Junkster, Dee, and others have all been concluded with trying to find areas of agreement, acknowledging valid points, and humility. Just review them, you’ll see. Not so with Lydia.

    She seems to have some valid things to say, but then misses very obvious points. I just think she has has a blind side regarding this issue and the conversation is becoming fruitless.

  37. “After what seems to be endless attempts to have her acknowledge even basic, valid, scriptural points…”

    I bet we agree on the basics. Jesus Christ was God in the Flesh. He went to the Cross for our sin (Justification) and rose again so we could have enternal life…those who trust, have faith and repent of sin which is a gift from the Holy Spirit.

    He sent the Holy Spirit to dwell within us. And if we are saved, we are co-heirs in everything.

    Michael, all the other stuff is non salvic. It is not primary to the saving Gospel. There is not a pink and blue Justification or Sanctification. Unfortuantly, many are teaching there is a pink and blue sanctification. And you are right…I won’t budge on that.

    Jesus was male. But I am still to be Christlike as a female. That is growing in Holiness. How could that possibly work with a pink sanctification?

  38. Deb, any advice on tomato’s would be welcome. It is very frustrating. This is my second summer to try. Last year I got about 13. Of course, this year, I only planted 2 plants.

    You have my email.

    I cannot believe you grow cotton! Soybeans I can believe. Do you guys actually work the farm?

  39. Lydia,

    I would agree with most of that. I would clarify that “He was delivered up for our transgressions and RAISED FOR OUR JUSTIFICATION.”

    Many may be teaching pink and blue sanctification, but I’m not. Pink and blue is clever, but it kind of muddies the waters for me.

  40. Yep, we work the farm with my husband doing most of the work. He grew up on a farm and has it in his blood. He has a full-time career, and considers farming to be his hobby instead of golfing or fishing. Fortunately, the farm equipment makes it much easier than it used to be, and believe it or not, it’s good therapy!

  41. um what about still very conservative churches that were some of the first to ordain women like the Wesleyan Church (formerly the Pilgrim Holiness Church and the Wesleyan Methodist Church, both of which were some of the earliest to ordain women) – I really doubt anyone could in their right mind claim the Wesleyan Church as liberal… (well except for maybe the few Pilgrim Holiness who didn’t merge whom the women still wear their hair in buns, etc – they think the Wesleyans are liberal – but find me anyone not of the “bun persuasion” who would think so…)

  42. Anon

    Point well taken. However, both the Calvinistas and the SBC crowd believe that they, and only they, have a special insight into what constitutes conservative Christianity. Interestingly, those little rules change over time.60 years ago, someone who played cards on a Sunday was considered either a heathen or a liberal. Now, they define someone as a liberal who allows women some leadership role in the church and anyone who dares question the lives of leaders such as Ergun Caner and Mac Brunson.

    Conservative is in the eyes of the beholder and I think it is a pile of nonsense. And, there are many Baptist who would say that Methodists might not be saved. Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense. I hope this new president has a different view. We shall see.

  43. I discovered this blog/website and am very happy about this essay and questioning of the “Biblical Manhood and Womanhood” movement. Personally, I think very much that they ARE preaching two separate “pink and blue” salvations, which to my way of thinking is a very *mockery* of the Gospel; it also disturbs me how they’re monkeying with Trinity doctrine by emphasizing the eternal submission of Jesus to the Father *in order to create and enforce* permanent domination of women within home and church. A close reading of the Book of Revelation will reveal that it was only THE SON who was considered worthy to open the Seven Seals, although, granted, it was the Father Who held the scroll. Yet, why didn’t the Father open the scroll Himself? I don’t think these people would care to ask the question…

    It’s heresy that’s more interested in feeding male ego, a complete rejection of Christ’s preaching of servant leadership. THANK YOU for challenging these attitudes and doctrines, and revealing them for what they are!

  44. Radiance

    How very odd that she would think that it is a natural progression to begin to include women. Why were they an afterthought in the first place? Somehow I feel this is somewhat condescending and I feel mildly irritated although I can’t put me finger on it.Thanks for the link. We were planning to look at this meeting and you have given us more to discuss. I saw you comment at the site. :0

  45. Thanks, Radiance. I was aware that TGC will have women speakers next year.

    I’m surprised that this predominantly Presbyterian organization has included Voddie Baucham among its 50 speakers. Do they know much about him? I guess they are clueless that he’s aligned with Doug Phillips.

  46. “Somehow I feel this is somewhat condescending and I feel mildly irritated although I can’t put me finger on it. Thanks for the link.” ~ dee

    I think what makes me uncomfortable is the idea that this “move” to be “more inclusive of women” requires some sort of elaborate, carefully crafted justification in the first place?! The idea that women’s faces being on the website, women getting to speak at the conference, is so out-of-the-ordinary, that it causes some sort of “stir” that needs an explanation–just in case people get “carried away” with the “wrong idea” about its implications and their motives! (I wonder if the female speakers will get to speak in front of the WHOLE audience, or just to women?)

    The article is very conscious of itself and has more references to “the tight brotherhood of TGC” or about elevating “our brothers in Christ” and “men” and “pastors” rather than on the LORD Himself! I also notice the constant “complementarian” need to affirm women’s gifts only within the *context* of this particular doctrinal framework, within the context of their “limited roles.” Here’s the quote:

    “Rather, it’s that the biblical gospel shines in the way we’re made as male and female, particularly in the contexts of marriage and the church, where all we do aims to exalt Christ our bridegroom and our head.”

    The idea of women participating actively in the Body of Christ needs some sort of highly-refined “context” or system of operation is wholly unbiblical and full of itself. It reeks of idolatry of the doctrinal framework.

    The nature of a purely, organic, naturally operating, and active “Body of Christ” is wholly missing.

  47. Radiance

    You really nailed it. We will definitely raise this in a post in the near future.

    I am astonished how simply this woman accepts that “tight brotherhood.” Tight brotherhood of what??The body of Christ is comprised of men and women and both answer to the head-Jesus. It seems to me that she is dangerously close to suggesting that women must answer through men.

    In a previous church, guess who was the head of the women’s ministry-a male pastor. They also would not allow women to help collect the offering because some people might get the idea that a woman could be, get ready for this, A DEACON. GASP!

    Can you imagine just who might be concerned that women might be getting a bit too much involvement in the Gospel Coalition? Certain men who are so fearful of their position in the body of Christ that they must restrict full participation by women. I think things are getting nuts!