"You know who must be very secure in their masculinity? Male ladybugs".
Jay Leno
Today, I had a plan. By gum, I was going to write on that subject so long as the creek didn’t rise or the Lord returned. However, moments ago it struck me. I was behaving like some hyper-authoritarian pastors I have known. I have often complained that they do not consult the priesthood present in their churches for input into their “plan.” They are in charge and it is going to stay that way. One pastor I knew said that his elders had only disagreed with him twice in 28 years. Either the guy is a specially anointed prophet or the elders are falling down on the job.
Last Thursday, we published an article by John Piper on his concern for the Reformed movement. This post generated the most comments in the short history of TWW. However, Piper's statements were not the subject. A discussion ensued on the topic of complementarianism versus egalitarianism. And what a conversation it has been! The priesthood has spoken loud and clear and, finally, this frail vessel got it. It is time for this conversation.
The two issues are defined as such.
Complementarian: “is the theological view that although men and women are created equal in their being and personhood, they are created to complement each other via different roles in life and in the church. It is rooted in more literal interpretations of the Creation account and the roles of men and women presented in Scripture. It is also known as the Traditionalist or Hierarchical view".
Egalitarianism: “Christian Egalitarianism holds that all people are equal before God and in Christ. All have equal responsibility to use their gifts and obey their calling to the glory of God. God freely calls believers to roles and ministries without regard to class, gender, or race."
The definitions are easy; however, the way they play out is terribly complicated. In general, complementarians have diverging views which range from women are to keep utterly silent in church, teaching only small children and other women to those who would allow for women to be deacons.
In general, egalitarians believe that the church should allow women to be pastors and leaders.
The role of women in the church has become a HOT BUTTON issue in recent years due to the conservative resurgence within the Southern Baptist Convention and the rise of strict Calvinism dubbed the New Reformed Movement. The Council of Biblical Manhood and Womanhood has become known as the home of strict complementarianism. Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is home to a controversial doctrine known as The Eternal Subordination of the Son to the Father. This dogma essentially states that Jesus remains subordinate to the Father throughout eternity. The framers of this doctrine apply it to women by further stating that women will be subordinate to men throughout eternity. My cynicism leads me to suspect that the latter belief may have been the impetus for the “new” doctrine.
There has been pushback by a number of theologians and groups such as the Christians for Biblical Equality.
I have an evolving perspective on this issue. My life has been fairly traditional. Although I have a degree in nursing and hold an MBA, I have stayed at home with my children. On the other hand, a former pastor, Pete Briscoe, son of Jill and Stuart Briscoe, asked me to teach Christian history at his church, a role that I wasn’t sure I could play. He convinced me of the validity of women being able to teach and thus began a rather long history of teaching both men and women in church settings.
My husband and I both reject the idea that a husband is a wife's covering. For each of us, our covering is Jesus Christ. In fact, my dear husband has often stated that I “covered” for him when we taught due to my knowledge base in both history and theology. I do not believe it is sinful for men to learn from women. God gave me a love for history and theology which I freely share with whomever would freely choose to listen to me. I believe God gave me both a brain and a love for the theology. Am I really to just shut up? Some would say yes and others would say, “We wish she would.”
I have a simple question. What harm would it cause for a man to learn about the devoutly Christian Wilberforce’s battle to end the slave trade in England from me, a woman? How could this harm a man? Paige Patterson fired Sheri Klouda for teaching Hebrew to men at SWBTS. Once again, what harm would it cause to these men to learn how to parse a verb from a talented woman?
Frankly, I am getting a little weary of the “Bible says it; I believe it” crowd. If this was such a simple question then why are there so many permutations of the role of women among committed, conservative evangelicals? This range goes from veiled, utterly silent women to women serving as assistant pastors. So, no simple verse is going to prove the point once and for all. Even amongst the Calvinistas, a range of variations occurs.
I guess I have a problem with both views and have begun to think of myself as neither. If one looks at the history of the Jewish people, there used to be only one hierarchy. God was in charge and His people followed. But His people got restless and asked for a king like all the other folks on the earth. God gave them a king but said they would not like having such a king.
Having a king was not God’s best for man. Most of the kings in the Old Testament were known primarily for doing evil in the site of the Lord. The only perfect King was our Father but we didn’t seem to want Him to rule over us. It appears that earthly hierarchy was a man mandated desire and not the original intent of God.
It seems to me that we are all supposed to outdo one another in imitating our Lord who chose to wash the feet of His disciples. We are to be servants of one another. The cynic in me sees far too many leaders of the servants than servants of the flock.
I have questions, lots of questions. And anyone who thinks that they have this issue down pat is deceiving himself. One only has to look at the wide variety of practices within orthodox, conservative Christianity to understand that the issue is not clear and HUMILITY (and not the kind that C J Mahaney practices) should be the name of the game.I fear that there are far too many self-assured people on all sides of this subject.
Is some of the hierarchy of Scripture an accommodation to man’s wish for rulers other than God?
Are there God allowed accommodation to cultural mores in Titus and Timothy? If not, then why aren’t today's women wearing veils and promulgating very long hair?
How do we explain Junia who was counted among the apostles?
There is some evidence that women led some of the meetings of the early church. Why not now?
The church has used Scripture to justify slavery, racism, and jailing of scientists for believing that the earth revolved around the sun. How do we know for certain that this sort of thing is not being done by restricting the role of women?
I am now including some comments from some of the participants to kick off the discussion. I commend all of those of differing views who are discussing this hot button issue with respect. You are a credit to the church of our Lord. And I am blessed to have you read this blog.
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Junkster says:
Sat, Jul 17 12:37 pm at 12:37 pm (Edit)
Michael, I appreciate where you’re coming from — I suspect that most of us have held to your position at one point or another. I don’t know many Bible believing egalitarians who weren’t previously complementarians, as complementarianism is what is commonly taught in Bible-believing churches.
As one who holds to the infallibility and inerrancy of Scripture, and has always been part of churches that teach that (and would not want to be part of a church that didn’t), I was always led to believe that it was impossible to be anything other than complementarian and be true to the Bible. It took a lot of time and study, and a willingness to say, “What if the Bible actually teaches something else than I’ve been taught and that a surface reading might lead me to believe?” before my views shifted.
But I’d encourage you to read, study, and pray about what conservative, inerrantist, devoted followers of Christ who are egalitarian have to say about the passages most commonly used to promote the complementarian viewpoint. You might be surprised at what you’d learn. You might not change your views as I did, but at least you’d be able to see that it is possible to be fully committed to the truth of Scripture and not accept the complementation perspective.
The meaning of kephale would be a good place to start. I recommend that you don’t just accept what complementarians say it means (which is going to include many, but not all, lexicons and dictionaries); rather, spend some time looking at the writings of those who hold to the egalitarian perspective, who have gone back to both biblical and secular source material and done comprehensive exegetical studies.
Oh, and by the way, the Greek for “husband of one wife” is “mias gunaikos andra (more literally “man of one woman”), and interpreters have proposed a variety of possible meanings. There’s nothing specific to the Greek that would prove that it refers to polygamy.
If Lydia (a dear friend of mine) has anything on her shoulder, I think it is simply the burdens that are constantly being placed there by those who would attempt to hold her back in service in God’s kingdom. She’s always having to brush that off.
Lydia says:
Sat, Jul 17 11:12 am at 11:12 am (Edit)
Radiance, what you have described above is taking the whole scope of scripture for undertstanding AND realizing that several proof texts are used for some to have preeminance over others in the Body and marriage. You have hit the nail on the head.
One must ignore quite a few “one anothers”, not lording it over,the first shall be last, etc., in order to come to their men always on top conclusions.
Michael would not know this but I was a comp for many years. We really did try hard with the rules, roles and formula’s. I worked in that world in mega church marketing and was around quite a few of the comp celebrities/authors/seminar people for years. It is a HUGE industry on it’s own. But I got to see it for what it really is. That started the questioning. I was around some famous comp couples for a long time and the wife was either Patton back stage directing the “performance” or a doormat who thought it was a sin to have an opinion different than her husbands.
Then a deep study of the Word really showed me what an empty shell of doctrine it is. Entire doctrines built around the word “authenteo” which is used only once in the NT and is a rare word even in Koine Greek. You canot even trust the Lexicon on that word. How is it used in Greek Antiquity? It certainly does not mean ‘authority over’ as it was translated. From what I can tell it has connotations of rule by force as in murder.
I think the biggest AHA moment and a point of falling on my knees for the sin of comp thinking came when I found through study the horrible translation of Gen 3:16. A monk named Pagnini changed “turn” to “desire”in his 1300 translation of the Bible. Think about that. The whole meaning changes. God was saying that EVE would turn toward Adam ( away from God) and he would rule over her. And that is EXACTLY what happened! But many want us to believe that Eve’s turning to Adam is a virtue! It is so drilled into heads that many reading that will think it is a good thing. No. God is first. Women are to turn to God first and be a ONE FLESH UNION with their husband. The consequence of sin God spoke about in Gen 3:16 was the resulting Patriarchy that ensued. And we all know that God regulated everything eventually through the Law.
An even bigger problem comps have is that there is NOT ONE SINGLE prohibition about women teaching men in the Old Covenant. Yet, they want us to believe that all of a sudden, in the New Covenant, it is a sin. One way they get around this is to map the Levite Priest to the elder/pastor function in the Body. It does NOT map.
There are tons of examples of horrible translations when it come to this particular issue. Ironically, in 1 Tim 5, the word for “manage” the home is the same Greek word we get “despot” from! The wife is the despot of the home. Husband and wife are co-rulers as a ONE FLESH UNION. Seems the translators could not stomach such a thought.
And the translation and understanding of 1 Corin 11 is so sad it makes me weep. A passage on the cultural problem of headcoverings in the NT Body is used for everything from teaching Patriarchy to a foundational verse used for ESS! ESS is heresy!! And it is everywhere from Mohler to Grudem to Piper, etc!
But I think the most damaging part of comp theology is what they do to the Trinity through ESS and with Ezer.
Because of their insistence that Ezer kenegdo means JrAssistant (in a one flesh union?), they actually dimish God who is referred to as an Ezer throughout the OT. Some males are even named after that word. Grudem goes as far to say that God “submits” to us when He helps us. Think about that one for a while.
Comp theology has entered the realms of apostasy in these cases in their attempts to defend their doctrine of preeminance. I pray that many will run away from this stuff. Rules, roles and formulas are easy to follow. Abiding in Christ and being led by the Holy Spirit is where we need to be as believers, whether male or female.
Jesus left NO earthly layer or mediator for women. The temple veil was torn in two for them, also. Women believers are NOT perpetual children who need a male leader. It says more about the men who insist on this.
Radiance says:
Sun, Jul 18 04:05 pm at 04:05 pm (Edit)
I guess at the moment then, my greatest problem with the Reformed community is the lack of prominent, public female leaders, speakers, and thinkers. They don’t have to be “pastors,” but why do only MEN get to speak at conferences such as “Together 4 the Gospel?” Why is it that only MEN are allowed to attend annual “General Assembly” meet-ups, where key decisions are made with regard to the direction of their prospective denominations? Why is it only MEN who are writing on subjects such as Reformed theology, church history, and culture?
Why is that the women’s voices are only relegated to the subject of Titus 2 revivals and feminism bashing? It seems these days the only way for women to have a voice is only if they have “expertise” on the subject of “Biblical Womanhood.”
Why is that we aren’t considered valuable assets and contributors to the OVERALL theological, intellectual, and scholarly discourse?
Michael says:
Sat, Jul 17 12:45 am at 12:45 am (Edit)
Dee:
I am still learning in this area, but I’d like to share with you what I learned in the first three months of my marriage.
My wife and I were not in agreement about which church we should go to. I liked the church I had been attending for a year and really believed that was where the Lord would have us worship. My wife disagreed.
I remember so clearly when I walked into the bathroom one Sunday morning, I looked into the mirror, and I know the Lord asked me, “Are YOU willing to change?” That was quite a question because I was taught by the misguided bible scholars that SHE was the one who was supposed to change, not ME, since I had, “authority,” in the marriage. I felt like the Lord was also asking me through that experience, “Where do you think your wife learns humility?” “From you.” Guess what? I WAS willing to change and the next week we went to another church and my wife and I agreed that was the church we needed to attend.
I think authority in that situation was leading with humility, preferring her over myself, and setting a right example of laying down my wrongly- perceived right to demand her compliance. One of the Greek words for authority means the power to choose. So, I used the power of choice to choose something we could agree on. I could have used that authority to demand my way, and my wife would have complied, but reluctantly. But, that would not have been godly and it would have hurt my marriage.
I also developed a belief early on that, no matter who was right or wrong and no matter who started an argument, I was the one who was responsible for initiating reconciliation. It seemed to me that if I was the head of the wife like Christ was head of the church, and even though He was the One offended by our sin, yet HE was the One who initiated reconciliation, then even if I was the wronged in our marriage, I was the one who was responsible for initiating reconciliation.
I’m not saying that my wife shouldn’t, I’m just saying that I thought it was my responsibility; a leadership responsibility that carries the power to choose. I could choose not to, but again, it would not be godly and it would not help my marriage.
When you ask about authority, I think and answer regarding responsibility. When someone has a responsibility, I believe they have authority in that area. So authority means to have the power to decide. But with that power comes another responsibility; to love. And if one has the responsibility and authority to love, then he will choose ways where he and his wife are in agreement or wait until they are in agreement. He is not to lord over his wife.
I think the husband’s judgment comes in the way of a crappy marriage if he doesn’t treat his wife right. We tend to reap what we sow, right?
Arce says:
Thu, Jul 15 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm (Edit)
What I find hard to accept in hyper-Calvinism: (aside from the complementarianism thing — I have been an egalitarian on race since about age 10, on gender since about age 15, and on sexual identity since about age 35)
They worship the sovereignty of God, making it more powerful that God himself. It is as if God is not sovereign over his own sovereignty. But he is, and he choses to not exercise his sovereignty over us, allowing us to choose to love him and to obey him out of that love. Thus free will does NOT contradict the sovereignty of God.
As a parent, I wanted my children to love me and obey me. I could have commanded them to do so. I could have made all of their choices for them. But then they would not have learned how to choose and their love would not be love by choice, and it probably would be closer to fear and respect than to love.
BTW, we made our children explain what choices they had made that resulted unhappy adults because of their behavior, beginning about age 3. We would talk with them about consequences, and soon made them talk about how behavior sometimes had a natural consequence and sometimes an adult imposed consequence (never spanking in our house, but a lot of lost privileges and time out). Before age four, our son said “Daddy, don’t make me talk about choices and consequences, just spank me like Bobby’s daddy spanks him.” Now both of our children are competent adults who know how to make good decisions and to weight outcomes and consequences.
All of that required that we withhold some of our sovereignty over our children so that we did not determine their behavior, only some of the consequences of that behavior.
I believe that God is a better parent than I ever could be, and more generous and loving, enough to come and die to remove the consequence of my disobedient choices. To say he is trapped by his sovereignty is to make him a god I could not worship, which is why I cannot be a Calvinist.
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Good post, Dee. Especially those comments by Junkster — he’s quite a guy! 🙂
I’m wondering where the definition you provided of complementarian and egalitarian came from. I’m not so sure I agree with the part of the complementarian definition that says “It is rooted in more literal interpretations of the Creation account and the roles of men and women presented in Scripture.” Perhaps that’s how complementatrians see their own viewpoint, but Bible-believing egalitarians would not agree that there is anything in the Genesis creation account that places men in a hierarchical relationship over women. And they would also dispute whether the “roles” that complementarians often speak of are presented in Scripture.
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Junkster
You are quite a guy! I took the liberty of removing the “q” since I haven’t decided about quixotic yet.
I agree that the definitions are lacking. I went to so many sources and so many folks had differing definitions. I threw one out there to get the discussion going. I am absolutely sure that many will disagree. I didn’t want to take one from SGM or the Danvers Statement or……..
I tried to get one that those within the movement might agree with, at least on some basic level. I would agree with the egals on their view on the Genesis account.
I am waiting for the heavy artillery to come out now that I put it front and center and it isn’t hidden under a post of a different subject. The gun lessons I took in my youth may stand me in good stead.
Incoming……………………………
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I’m also one who dioesb’t want to use the either term (com or egal) for myself. I realize that most committed comps would probably call me an egal, and I’m fine with that. But even though I don’t think there are rigid distinctions of “roles” for men and women in the church and in the family, I normally don’t call myself an egal because I think that term can still involve a misunderstanding of nature of the kingdom of God as service instead of rulership.
That is, many people hold to the comp position, at least partly, because they believe pastors have some sort of authority over the other members of the congregation and husbands have some sort of authority over their wives. They don’t women should have that authority over men, so they hold to the comp position.
But there are also some egals who would say that there can be positions or roles involving authority over others in churches and in families — they just believe that it is ok for women to have that authority over men.
Because of that, I would say I’m neither comp nor egal, because, in either viewpoint, there can still be room for some believers to exercise authority over others in God’s kingdom, which is something I do not believe the Bible teaches. Some egals would agree with me on that, but not all.
So the reason I would have no problem with a woman as a pastor/elder is because I do not see the position of pastor/elder as containing inherent ahthority over other members of the body, as has traditionally and historically been the case. Rather it is one function and gift among many spiritual gifts, and all members are supposed to use their gifts whenever the church gathers to build each other up.
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Dee,
I also like what you had to say about the Israelites wanting a king. In my view, the church started out much like Israel prior to them choosing a king for themselves — with God as their only King. They had leaders, like Moses and the Judges, but their leadership was seen in their service, and anytime they sought their own will or to elevate themselves over others, God brought them back down. God gave the people a king because they demanded it, but he also told them they would suffer opprssion because of it.
Likewise, most people in churches want a human ruler, a “king” of sorts — the pastor. But they don’t get the loving shepherd, spiritual overseer, and spiritually mature elder in the faith that God intended that function to be; instead they get an authoritarian CEO of Church, Inc.
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I’m all for exercising your 2nd amendment rights, but there’s no need for guns in this battle. Just put on the full armor of God, take up the shield of faith, and pray — and you will be just fine!
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Dee wrote:
“In general, complementarians have diverging views which range from women are to keep utterly silent in church, teaching only small children and other women to those who would allow for women to be deacons.”
I absolutely agree with this!
It’s mind-boggling that there are such divergent views regarding what women can and cannot do with regard to ministry.
My daughter has had the privilege of attending Redeemer Presbyterian Church several times while doing a summer project with Campus Crusade for Christ in NYC. She has so enjoyed Tim Keller’s preaching!
I find it most interesting that Keller, who co-founded the Gospel Coalition with D.A. Carson, leads a congregation that has both deacons and deaconesses.
http://www.redeemer.com/care/diaconate/
Is Keller’s church wrong for allowing women to serve in the diaconate?
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Deb
Maybe this is another guy Mark Dever won’t let take communion in his church.
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Actually, if you go look at Capitol Hill’s website, they have female deacons as well.
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Scott
Thanks for the update. We are glad to hear that. That was a tongue in cheek quip. Perhaps Mahaney won’t have communion with him.
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Scott
I just thought of a question. Do you know if the female deacons have the same functions as the male deacons?
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Dee,
Since you asked, here’s a link that will be of interest to you:
http://www.capitolhillbaptist.org/we-are/led/deacons-deaconesses/deacon-deaconess-bios/
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For those of you who don’t understand Dee’s comment about who can and cannot take communion at Capitol Hill Baptist Church, you might benefit from reading the following article by Abraham Piper.
http://www.desiringgod.org/Blog/772/
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I don’t understand something. Some folks who say that the phrase “husband of one wife” in 1 Tim 3:2 means that pastors/edlers/overseers must be men, will also allow women to be deacons, even though 1 Tim 3:12 says that a deacon must also be the “husband of one wife” (same phrase). I don’t see how it can mean pastors must be men if it doesn’t also mean deacons must be men. I know that some folks do say that deacons must be men, but there are also some who say deacons can be either men or women, but pastors must be men. I don’t get that.
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Egads! Child care, weddings and library. Well, at least they think women should be allowed to read.
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Junkster,
How observant of you! Thanks for bringing this to our attention.
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Dee, aren’t you glad you asked about the functions of CHBC deacons? I’m glad you did!
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The passage says “and the women likewise”. The English translation leaves out a great deal of meaning and replaces it with other meaning, a problem with translation generally. Many terms in languages other than English are always masculine in the plural or if one or more could be male. E.g., in the latin derived languages, one brother and six sisters become seven “brothers”, and a group of 19 women and 1 man becomes a group of 20 “men”. One must tread carefully.
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Arce
Do you recommend a particular translation of the Bible?
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Why not just reason and common sense? Do Paul’s epistles have to be forged into a religion of micro-managed do’s & don’ts? It’s one thing to want to be Biblical in practice, but simply because Paul’s letters mention deacons, elders & such, does that mean that one’s church must absolutely have them?
The same can be asked of Paul’s letter to his protege (Timothy) in Ephesus in which he tells him that he doesn’t allow a woman to teach. Teach what? A pagan creation fable? The same sound doctrine he (Paul) taught?
If it’s a pagan fable, then it was a one time admonishment to a specific problem at Ephesus, the doggie wags its tail, the Church universal moves on and everything’s cool.
If on the other hand, one accepts as law that women cannot even teach sound doctrine to men, the amount Scripture that must be ignored or glossed over in order to get the tail to wag the doggie becomes monumental.
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Paul’s letters are the Inspired Word of God. And are not a list of do’s and don’ts when studied in the Greek but are specific to their audience as “Letters” are. ALL translators ARE errant. One needs the Holy Spirit to illuminate truth of the Word.
In 1 Tim 2, the Grammar is singular. Singular. It is ONE woman who is “authenteo” man.
Not all women for all time or the Joel prophecy at Pentecost would have been a cruel contradiction.
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Here’s my question…
When Christian leaders isolate verses in Paul’s letters to establish a Biblical mandate, aren’t they just as guilty of proof-texting as the prosperity preachers?
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I have some preference for the TNIV or the NIV, but prefer to use several. I read very carefully the preface material. Most translation committees say that, when there are multiple possible meanings, they go for one similar to the KJV. I think that is wrong, because the KJV was sponsored by King James to justify the divine right of kings and is fairly extreme in its choices in support of patriarchy and hierarchical systems. The KJV is not a reliable translation for that reason.
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Paul used the personal pronoun “I” in that regard. It was his personal rule, not necessarily God’s rule. And it is contradicted elsewhere in his own writings.
BTW, Priscilla taught Apollos who apparently was a fantastic preacher.
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Dee,
Good post. You’re right, Humility is key.
I’d be happy to sit in a class taught by you any day. You obviously have much to share that we could all benefit from. I’m in neither camp; I just want to land in God’s camp and for us all to minister effectively for God’s kingdom.
For those women who believe they are just as called to lead and minister…do it. Go win the lost, start a church, lead a congregation. What are you waiting for? I hope you’re not waiting until everyone agrees with you before you go and accomplish what God has called you to.
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Arce,
Well, the translation of gunaika hosauto in 1 Tim 3:11 can be translated either “women, likewise”, or “wives, likewise”. Normally context determines whether forms of the word gune should be translated “women” or “wives”. Unfortunately, in this case, there are no direct grammatical clues, such as the use of aner nearby, which would make the translation of wives more likely. But the absence of aner in proximity doesn’t always mean it has to be translated “women”. So we can’t be dogmatic on the translation either way based on Greek grammar alone.
Thus, the translation chosen is often determined by one’s prior views on male-female roles in the church. Comps who say that women can’t be either pastors or deacons would say it must be referring to deacon’s wives and translate accordingly. Egals and less strict comps who say deacons can be women prefer the translation of “women” over “wives”.
But my original point was that there are those who allow for women deacons, and they say “husband of one wife” in reference to deacons doesn’t mean that a deacon must always be a man (and they would most likely translate gune in 1 Tim 3:11 as “women”. Yet some of those same people still say that “husband of one wife” in reference to an overseer/elder/pastor does limit that function to men. That’s an inconsistent position that I don’t understand.
If there are any folks reading this who believe it’s ok to have women deacons but not to have women pastors, I’d appreciate it if they can explain their reasoning to me.
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The question in that passage is whether Paul was speaking in his position as an apostle and handing down a mandate from God, or if Paul was speaking purely if his own personal opinion and practice. That’s debatable.
But even if Paul is speaking in an authoritative sense, what he said doesn’t necessarily have to be interpreted as applying to all women for all time. As Muff and Lydia have indicated, it could very well be that Paul was referring to a particular woman in that particular church that Paul was prohibiting from teaching a particular doctrine. Such an interpretation would be consistent with other teachings of Paul’s and the rest of the New Testament.
What doesn’t make sense to me is to take a passage that has multiple potential interpretations and unusual grammar and vocabulary and dogmatically assert that the one and only possible correct interpretation is the one which greatly limits 50% of the church in how they serve God, when the rest of the Bible much more clearly indicates that God has gifted the entire body of Christ for service, including teaching.
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Junkster,
I was wondering, based on your comments, when you write the translation could refer to wives, is there anything here that would disallow the meaning to be that they minister together, husbands and wives in these roles as elders or deacons?
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Thanks for the encouraging words, Michael.
Beginning around four years ago, Dee and I each felt the prompting of the Holy Spirit to start a ministry. We didn’t take action as quickly as we should have, but we finally launched our ministry in March 2009. It’s called “The Wartburg Watch”, and at this point in time it’s a blogging ministry. In the months and years to come, we will continue to listen for that still small voice.
Each of us has other ministry ideas which we pray will come to fruition if they are in the center of God’s will.
To God be the glory!
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Michael,
In a previous thread you asked for my views on where on authority exists, since I had been stating that I did not accept the notion of a person or group having authority over in the body of Christ, or the idea of husbands having authority over their wives. I just noticed that question, so I decided to post my response in this thread.
My view of authority is similar to what you described as your own in subsequent comments — it goes along with the responsibilities given to us. Thus, as parents, we have the authority to fulfill our responsibility to protect, train, and correct our children. A government has the responsibility to ensure its citizens well-being, and thus has the authority to reward good behavior and to punish bad behavior (particularly that which harms another). Any authority that people have in their jobs (whether it be as a ditch digger or a medical doctor) extends to their areas of responsibility and influence.
Any authority in the church and in marriage relates to responsibilities we all have to one another as followers of Christ, in mutual love and submission. I do not see God as having given specific responsibilities solely to one person and other responsibilities solely to another, in either the church or in marriage. Thus a pastor has no more authority over the congregation than the congregation has over him, and a husband has no more authority over his wife than she has over him. As the saying goes, the ground is level at the foot of the cross. Thus there are no hierarchical relationships in God’s kingdom.
He has given all of us specific capabilities (gifts, physical attributes, psychological attributes), and we are responsible to use them accordingly. But He hasn’t, for the most part, locked into stone whether those responsibilities must be fulfilled by men or by women — except in purely biological functions, such as impregnation or child-bearing. But I don’t see those distinctions as having any relevance to any other aspect of our responsibilities or relationships.
That’s my take on it. Yours?
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Michael,
There’s nothing in the grammar or vocabulary that I’m aware of that would preclude that interpretation. It makes sense — but I don’t know how we could be certain one way or the other. The idea of a husband-wife ministry team has support in Scripture, and it has been a common practice in pentecostal and charismatic churches for a very long time. And, historically, those churches have had a very high view of the authority of Scripture.
Since the references to “women (or wives), likewise” falls in the middle of the section about deacons, it only seems to apply to deacons (and there is no similar “women, likewise” reference in the section about overseers/elders/pastors). I suppose this is at least part of why some folks allow women deacons but not women pastors. But if they are relying on “husband of one wife” as their basis for not allowing women pastors, that is a weak argument, since the same phrase is used of deacons, and they are already conceding that the phrase doesn’t limit deacons to being men. (Perhaps there is some other basis than the phase “husband of one wife” for allowing only men to be pastors, but that seems to be the primary argument I’ve heard.)
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“It is rooted in more literal interpretations of the Creation account and the roles of men and women presented in Scripture. It is also known as the Traditionalist or Hierarchical view”.”
I am with Junk, I do not agree with the comp definition. Where are these “roles” outside the obvious biological ones, listed specifically? Not in one single place does God tell Adam he is in authority over Eve. Not one. It is read INTO the account. That is not literal.
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“So the reason I would have no problem with a woman as a pastor/elder is because I do not see the position of pastor/elder as containing inherent ahthority over other members of the body, as has traditionally and historically been the case. Rather it is one function and gift among many spiritual gifts, and all members are supposed to use their gifts whenever the church gathers to build each other up.”
this is also my view. Some wonder about church discipline when we make comments like this but they do not realize, for example, that Paul wrote to the ENTIRE Corin church to deal with the guy in chapter 5. He did not write to the elder or pastor to deal with it.
There are ONLY servant functions in the Body and there is to be spiritual UNITY. Not conformity to human leaders. Jesus Christ is the authority and believers are to have the indwelling Holy Spirit. Some are more mature than others. But the goal should be going toward eating MEAT. Not keeping followers on milk so one can be in authority.
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“Likewise, most people in churches want a human ruler, a “king” of sorts — the pastor. But they don’t get the loving shepherd, spiritual overseer, and spiritually mature elder in the faith that God intended that function to be; instead they get an authoritarian CEO of Church, Inc.”
Junk, we are mental twins! I am constantly astounded at how our churches resemble Israel of the OC.
As one authoritarian pastor said, people need to be led. It is their nature. I agreed with him that Christians need to be led by the Holy Spirit not another human.
But I wondered who led him? We can look around us at the big entertainment temples come call church and wonder who is leading the leaders?
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ARe they deacons to women’s groups only? Many are going that route.
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It says…if anyone desires…
Anyone is ’tis’…which means ANYONE.
The Greek for husband of one wife actually translates better as “Faithful Spouse” and was seen on tombstones of women in Ephesus from archeological digs.
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You will see Phoebe described as a servant in some translations. Not as a deacon as it is used elsewhere. This is on purpose because deacon means servant. This is translator bias pure and simple.
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Some of us do. We are just not official within the “systemized” church. Nor do I ever see the need to be. I believe the Body is a living organism. Not a system with org charts and ‘offices” (which was added by the translators)
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“But He hasn’t, for the most part, locked into stone whether those responsibilities must be fulfilled by men or by women — except in purely biological functions, such as impregnation or child-bearing. But I don’t see those distinctions as having any relevance to any other aspect of our responsibilities or relationships”
This brings up another question for comps. If there IS a biblical manhood and biblical womanhood, then how can a female be Christlike since Jesus was male?
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Yep, mental twins. I’m honored that you think I think like you, ‘cuz I like the way you think.
(No relevance, but “I like the way you think” is a great line from the movie Back to School, spoken by Sam Kenison to Rodney Dangerfield.)
As to who is leading the leaders — that’s why they are so big on who is who’s mentor, and on promoting each other on their preaching circuits, and its why so many of the wannabe pastors look up to the mega pastors. It’s all very Catholic.
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Next thing ya know the folks at CBMW will be promoting a new doctrine, “The Eternal Masculinity of the Son”. 🙂
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Junkster
Funniest comment of the month!!!
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I think a lot of the problem in this area is a misunderstanding that authority implies superiority. But anyone who has ever had a job realizes that the two do not go together. Very often those in authority are inferior to those who they lead.
Certainly many pastors are inferior to many of the people in their congregation – in understanding of the Bible, in humility, in work ethic.
So the question of whether women should be pastors is NOT a discussion of whether they are superior or inferior to men. It is a question merely of whether God has described what His will is in the area. I think He has, and that His preference is for women Not to be pastors.
This does not have to make sense to me. I also don’t have to understand why God declared that all of some people groups should be killed by the Israelites.
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“Me”, no one here has associated authority with superiority, so your point is kind of a red herring. The real problem is that the Bible doesn’t say that God wants pastors to be men, but that idea has been promoted for so long that people can’t imagine that the Bible might actually teach something different.
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“Very often those in authority are inferior to those who they lead.”
Have you ever tried to tell them that? When you do, could I come and watch? :o)
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I wonder what kind of frenzy a newly elected female President would stir up…
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one who is conservative, pro-life, and professes faith in Jesus Christ and unashamedly voices her belief in the Sovereignty of God over her life and the affairs of this world…
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“I think a lot of the problem in this area is a misunderstanding that authority implies superiority. But anyone who has ever had a job realizes that the two do not go together. Very often those in authority are inferior to those who they lead.”
Authority may not confer superiority, but authority requires superiority.
The incompetent boss is a reality, but certainly not an ideal of how an organization should run. Authority without ability is a joke.
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Radiance, If you were around the blogs during the election, it caused quite a frenzy in patrio/comp circles. Voddie Baucham (on TV!) and others said Sarah should be home tending her children/husband. With much grit of teeth Mohler and others said it was ok for a woman to lead in secular situations but NOT in Christian situations like home and church. This was especially a difficult subject because Sarah is a professing Christian.
See, her running for office causes a lot of questions. Esp since Piper had once said that women who have direct male reports should not give them orders but only suggestions. Because it is not natural for women to lead men.
However, it did present problems for the comps since as a VP she would have been her husband’s civil authority.
I think they would have been ok as long as Sarah did not lead a Bible Study that included her male staffers. :o)
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I notice that you left out the female deacon who serves with her husband in member care or the female who serves as church treasurer, but facts make your sarcastic quips more difficult. Plus, did you read their bios, it makes your stereotype of the women in complementarian churches even more difficult to sustain.
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Junkster,
Thanks for your response. I think those who believe that elders have some authority that deacons don’t have, since they are viewed as servants, not overseers, they interpret the, “women, likewise,” verse as women can be deacons. Then they rely on the, “I don’t allow women to exercise authority over a man,” verse to disqualify them from being pastors. The examples in the NT where they Junias/Junia or the example of a woman pastor is accepted by the charismatics because they view the women as being under the authority of their husbands. I’m just sayin’, not saying it’s the right answer; the jury is still out.
Regarding Lydia’s logic that there is no authority in the Body accept Christ’s authority, therefore anyone can be a leader in the church, that just does not wash. Using the same illogic, I guess I don’t have authority over my kids because they are saved and are in the priesthood of believers. I guess we don’t have to obey the instructions of our Christian bosses because they don’t have any authority over us, since we are a priesthood of believers. I guess Deb and Dee don’t have the authority to kick us off the blog they started, since we are all in the Body, right?
That’s hogwash. We are all under authority in areas of our lives and have authority in areas of our lives. That includes in the church and in our family. And I think it’s just not convincing enough to use one verse and use the exception to say what the rules are. No, there is no need to strain over the word rule. Nor is it convincing proof of one’s point to keep crying foul and translator bias because one can’t accept what is written.
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Junkster,
Thank you for your response. We seem to be pretty much on the same page. I would say that in some ways wives have authority over husbands, like the verses referring to her authority over her husbands body, and his over hers. But I think we would agree that there is no blanket authority. We are given specific authority in relation to our duties, as you wrote. I would part from you in that I think we do have different duties, but as I wrote in my very first post on the last thread, that does not make one more equal than another.
I went back and saw that I had written the word, “complement,” before I even knew the word complementarianism.” Who was to know that was a hot button word and would open the gates.
But with the distinctions I’ve made here, I think we are generally in agreement.
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Lydia,
Why don’t you answer my questions that I’ve posed first. I’ve answered some of yours. Why don’t you answer mine, regarding authority. It’s on the other thread. When you will do me that courtesy, then I’ll answer more of your questions.
Or do you not recognize ANY authority besides your own?
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Lydia,
Elder is not a spiritual gift, it’s an office. And Apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers are not spiritual gifts in that passage, they are offices.
I completely agree with you regarding Corinthians, that they, as a congregation were rebuked for not taking collective action to boot the guy out of the church. They, as a congregation had the authority to do that. If they did not have the authority to do that, then the guy could have blown off their discipline, because, after all, “who are they and what authority do they have to kick me out of church?”
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Me:
That was not a red herring. You were absolutely right on. From the beginning of the original thread they have implied that one can’t have a different role and still be equal. They have to be able to have the same role, to be a leader in the church or pastor, etc. I agree with you. There are many in the congregation who are superior in many ways than the pastor or elder, but they just have a different role, man or woman.
I think one thing we can ALL agree on is that there is to be no allowance for superiority or lording over in the Body of Christ.
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If you all want to see how bad it is in some pastor circles, read these blog comments by mostly pastors on the subject of women:
http://sbcvoices.com/the-struggle-of-women-in-the-sbc/
Don’t let the irenic title fool you or the author. He thinks it is his job to get his wife to submit. Read the comments and understand what is going on out there.
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Scott
You are right. I did not see the woman who is treasurer. I am sorry. That is an important function.I actually thought I had seen the whole page as I scrolled to the bottom but I obviously did not go far enough and that was stupid.
However, I did see the pair but didn’t comment on it because I was focusing on the roles of women alone.
I do have a question. What is my stereotype of women in complementarian churches? Since I do not subscribe to either view because I find the definitions limited, I am not sure what my stereotypes are. I did read their bios. Just like many women they are educated. However, if one were to look at some churches, such as SGM, there are educated women who are not allowed to do anything but childcare and meeting with women.
If you were to look at my life, it would appear that I am complementarian. I stayed at home and raised my children and participated in women’s ministries for awhile.I also taught children’s Sunday school, volunteered in the nursery, etc.Then I went in a different direction, teaching church history.
Instead of labeling myself a complementarian, I view myself as a servant, giving up a career to serve my children and my husband. I know a wonderful man who gave up his career to stay home with his children so his wife, a dedicated physician, could continue with her mission in medicine. I do not look at him as an egalitarian but as a servant to his wife and children.
I get tired of the push and pull-whose equal; whose separate but equal;. They real question is Who is a servant?
Since you know CHBC well, can you tell me if women are allowed to teach adult sunday school?
Once again, thank you for your kind correction.
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MIchael
Lydia does recognize the authority of Jesus Christ. One of the difficulties of the blogging medium is that we often know very little about each other’s life experiences. Lydia has had many and some of them offered insight into the church in America that few of us have had.
Give her a break. She loves the Lord and is deeply committed to the authority of Jesus. But, it is fair to continue to ask questions.
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MIchael
Shouldn’t pastors, teachers, etc be gifted for the office that they fulfill. I know some wretched pastors who do not exhibit any of the gifts that one might expect to find in that office. Can we really separate the gift from the office?
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Scott
One other thing that you might consider in your response to me is this. You may not have had the experience of being discounted because you are a woman. There are women who comment here who have been told they could not speak in church and that they would have to go through their husbands. There are women here who have been told to return to spousal abuse because they were to be submissive. There are women here who have confronted terrible issues in their churches and were not heeded simply because of their gender.
Sometimes a long history of systemic views of women as separate but equal (sound familiar?) can cause nerve to get a bit raw.
I think it was you who said something about you being a pastor of a congregation in which you have written bylaws invoking the priesthood function. I hope you will show sensitivity to those who have been let down by a manmade system.
Blessings
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I say it is a red herring because it is making an incorrect assumption about why others hold to their viewpoint. Just because someone believes that there are no defined offices of roles (in church or marriage) in which some people have inherent authority over other people, that does not mean they believe that authority implies superiority.
To be clear, I do not believe that authority implies superiority. It is simply a straw man to argue against a point no one here has made.
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Michael,
I would very much like to know on what you base your view that apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers are “offices”.
The passage you referred to (in Ephesians 4:7-13) says:
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. his is why it says:
“When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men.” (What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.) It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Seems pretty clear to me that “apostles …prophets…evangelists…pastors and teachers” are called “gifts” in this passage, given by Christ to the church, to edify the church. I see nothing there about offices.
In fact, I’d like to see any passages, correctly translated, that speak of church offices.
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Dee,
I’ll try to lighten up on her a bit. I’d think that she could respond to me herself, though, being my equal and all. But Junkster has answered once for her and now you.
She has asked questions that I have answered. She continues to ask questions but won’t answer my questions. You know, it’s real easy to ask a question and then criticize the view of the person who answers, knowing his position. But, she seems unwilling to commit to a position herself, regarding what I’ve asked. Fine.
I’m glad she loves the Lord and believes in Christ’s authority. She’s already made that clear. But, my question went beyond that regarding other authority on earth. Anyway, I’ll be happy to have an HONEST conversation when I’m not the only one willing to participate.
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Many wrongly interpret these as gifts because gifts is mentioned in the earlier verse. I can’t get my hands on my study at this time, but when I studied this before, I discovered the word,”and,” in, “and He gave some Apostles,etc.” means, “and also.” You can use, “and,” to continue a thought like, “We went downtown and went to the movies,” or you could use it like, “I gave a ball to Jim, and Paul,” meaning I gave a ball to Jim, and I also gave a ball to Paul.
This passage means, in my opinion based on my earlier study, He gaves gifts to men and He also gave some apostles, etc. That makes them separate from the gifts, not a description of the gifts.
The Greek word for, “gave,” could be interpreted as giving some to be in offices, as well.
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Yes we can separate the gifts from offices. See my post to Junkster. But, yes, you would have to be gifted to fulfill your duty in the office or offices God has appointed to you.
But, I totally agree with you that our churches are full of people filling offices in which they are not gifted. Since Southern Baptist churches don’t even recognize most of these offices, people who want to minister fulltime have only one place to go…pastor.
It’s obvious to me to see an evangelist hired as a pastor. He’s no more a pastor than a man in the moon. But what choice does he have under his dispensationalist doctrine?
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I agree with you that authority does not mean superiority. But the whole tone of the arguments used by others seems to imply superiority. The very first question asked me was, “How can there be different roles and still be equality?” And there have been others. But, that question alone implies to me that unless you are able to fill the same roles as others, you’re not equal to them…you’re inferior. What about the passage about various gifts and how can one say to the other,etc.? So, in my opinion, his comment was right on.
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I think I see what you’re saying — the gift is the “position” (apostle, pastor, etc.), or the person filling the position, rather than the concept of a spiritual gift given to an individual, like the gifts listed elsewhere. That is, there is a difference between being a “prophet” and having the gift of prophecy. The former must always have the latter, but not everyone with the latter is the former. Is that what you mean? If so, we’re on the same page, because that is actually my view.
But whether the gift is the position of prophet, or the gift is a manifestation of prophecy, all gifts are to be used to build up the body — they do not exist as ends unto themselves; they exist to fullfil a function. (Seems obvious, I know, but those who are focused on their “office” sometimes lose sight of this.)
Nonetheless, while there are specific functions or “roles” in the body, such overseers/elders/pastors, I see no indication in Scripture that this is anything other than one function among many within the body, and I see no indication that there is a hierarchical reationship between any one function and another. I do not believe they are “offices”, and I believe that these functions have no more “authority” than that fulfilled by any other member of the body.
I am not at all opposed to the concept of authority – I am by nature a pretty compliant person. What I am opposed to is the imposition of the concept of rule or headship over others in the kingdom of God being vested in a specific position (such as pastor or husband).
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Hi Michael,
I did not realize there was a question aimed at me. Sorry about that.
As to authority…I recognize civil authority, government instituted by God. And I think there is a parental authority over children.
When it comes to believers in the Body, Jesus Christ is the authority and adult believers (note, I said adult) are given the indwelling Holy Spirit. Some believers are more spiritually mature than others and act as shepherds for others but their goal should be that the “milk” believer starts eating meat and will also exercise their spiritual gifts to edify the Body.
In the Body, I can only find lowly servants in scripture. Overseers are the lowliest who care for souls. Paul described himself as an underrower, the lowest of the low on a slave ship.
In the earthly system we invented that we call “church” we have people following humans and can hardly grow past what they think are their earthly authorities. It is a scandal.
As far as authority in marriage, the only place I can find that clearly taught is in 1 Corin 7 and unfortuantly for comps, it is given to wives, too.
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Sorry, I was logged in as anonymouse! Sorry, my visiting niece is using my computer today and has been surfing the Baptist blogs.
Michael wrote:
“Elder is not a spiritual gift, it’s an office”
“office” is not in the Greek. It was added by the translators. And it is easy to see why as they were translating under a state church with a king to consider. :o)
The overseer surely would be endowed with spiritual gifts by the Holy Spirit. I agree, it is a function within the Body however, there is a trend to hire business types to “oversee” staff’s in many mega’s who operate like a business.
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“Regarding Lydia’s logic that there is no authority in the Body accept Christ’s authority, therefore anyone can be a leader in the church, that just does not wash.”
Michael, I missed this one earlier. Could you define leader? And believe me, anyone can be a “leader” in many of our churches and organizations. Should we mention Ted Haggard, Ergun Caner, Matt Baker (who killed his wife) and a host of others were “leaders”. So, maybe you can tell me how this “leadership” thing works. I am assuming you do not believe in Apostolic succession?
” Using the same illogic, I guess I don’t have authority over my kids because they are saved and are in the priesthood of believers.”
This is a bit Freudian but by the same illogic, it would mean you think of followers of the leaders at church as children. Perhaps, wives are viewed as perpetual children?
I don’t know about you, but I definitely have authority over my kids until they leave home and are on their own.
” I guess we don’t have to obey the instructions of our Christian bosses because they don’t have any authority over us, since we are a priesthood of believers.”
What if my “authority” was Ted Haggard? Or Matt Baker? And their sin was hidden for a long time. In effect, I could be supporting evil by obeying them. Thanks, but I will stick with Christ. It is safer than obeying humans in the Body.
“I guess Deb and Dee don’t have the authority to kick us off the blog they started, since we are all in the Body, right?”
Nice to know you think this is a church? They must be the elders!
“That’s hogwash. We are all under authority in areas of our lives and have authority in areas of our lives. That includes in the church and in our family. And I think it’s just not convincing enough to use one verse and use the exception to say what the rules are. No, there is no need to strain over the word rule. Nor is it convincing proof of one’s point to keep crying foul and translator bias because one can’t accept what is written.”
I totally accept what is written. I just disagree with your interpretation of what is written. Do a deep study on Hebrews 13:17 to see how badly the translators mangled that one. But, who would want to lost his head over a translation?
Will you answer a question? Are you a pastor or in seminary or in some ministry position. Are you an elder or deacon. Thanks.
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Since comments are interspersed within the thread, it is easy to miss some. My apologies to Michael who thought I was ignoring his comments. I wouldn’t miss the fun! Thanks for the debate.
I was also not checking comments until a bit ago and did not realize it was logged in under another moniker. I have company and others have been using my laptop today.
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Arce
I never knew that about the KJV! I realize that my studies have just begun.
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Muff
I have always thought that God’s laws make sense. So here is my question. God gave me an interest in history. Because of this, I am more well read on things like the history of the Reformation than many men and women. Why would it be a sin for me to share my knowledge with men in a lecture on the Reformation in church? Why would it be OK for me to teach this same information to men at a college?
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Junkster
Have you received a reply on your question?
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Dee,
Not entirely. Michael answered that some comps might say that women can be deacons because deacons don’t have authority over others like elders do, and they would use Paul’s statement elsewhere about not allowing a woman to teach or exervise authority over a man as a reason women can’t be pastors.
I understand that argument, and it is one possible interpretation of those passages. I personally don’t believe that it is the best interpretation, but this is for me not an “A” level issue, more like a “B” or “C” level one. So I definitely don’t think it is something to divide over.
But my original question wasn’t answered in that I know there are some folks who use the phrase “husband of one wife” to disqualify women from being pastors but they don’t use it to disqualify women from being deacons. I was hoping someone who held that view could explain to me why that isn’t inconsistent as it appears to me to be. But maybe there’s no one reading who holds the specific view I’m wondering about.
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Dee,
You have my personal permission to share your knowledge with men, women, children, and various clean animals. But not the unclean ones; that’sd just not right. I hope this settles your mind. 🙂
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Is a pug dog considered clean? Petunia and Lilly are anxiously awaiting your reply.
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Junkster
I may throw that question out as part of a post. It’s actually intriguing.
For me, this is a B issue. However, I have some concerns about how this is perceived by nonChristians. Many of them truly believe the faith is defined as 6 day creationism, women being excluded from leadership in the church, a mandate for homeschooling, etc. I fear the Gospel is being lost in a new set of dos and don’ts. This is yesterday’s legalism masquerading as today’s “proper” interpretation.
It seems as if the new legalists shout louder than others and therefor get to define the terms for the rest of us.
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Junkster
Years ago, Pete Briscoe made the following comment to us “The elders are my bosses.” He believed that he was subject to them even though he was the head pastor. Pete seemed to have his head screwed on straight. Years later, we would have an assistant pastor, who had royally screwed up in one of his roles, say to some of us who questioned him, “What about my authority?” Authority that is demanded is weak. Pete commanded respect without having to demand obedience for the sake of his position.
Another pastor used to constantly demand that people look at him and write down what he said. Petulant demanding is a sign of weakness. A truly gifted speaker or one who is speaking well them a message given to them by the Almighty does not need to stomp his feet and demand respect and attention.
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Lydia
Pete Briscoe often would say that his job was to equip and support the priesthood for their jobs in the kingdom.The underrower is an excellent description. The best pastors that I have known view themselves as equippers, not the chief mucky mucks.
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Ok, I see what you’re saying. I didn’t take the questions regarding how there can be authority & equality as an indication that authority implies superiority. But that could be the case; I can’t be certain of what anyone else’s internal though processes. So you’re right that “Me” could have reasonably come to that conclusion based on what some folks have been saying.
In my view, the problem that authority poses for equality in the body of Christ is not that I think authority automatically implies superiority. (Though I’m sure there are some in authority who assume so, and there could well be some commenting on this blog who assume so.) Rather, where I see authority running contrary to equality in churches is when the authority is considered inherently vested in certain positions or offices.
I know that my view that there are no positions or roles or offices with automatic headship, rule or authority over others is not a common one. I held to the traditional view for most of my Christian life and have only recently come to this view that the New Testament teaches a radical equality that runs counter to the traditional view.
I also know that one can be an egalitarian and still hold to the concept of authoritative church offices. I suspect that is probably the more common view in egalitarian circles. Some egals hold to a low view of Scripture, and would say that the Bible teaches that women shouldn’t teach or have authority over men, but that part of the Bible is just wrong and reflects a misogynistic view of Paul’s. Other egals hold to a high view of Scripture, and believe that pastors do have authority over other members of the body, and that women can hold such a position of authority, but the passages that are traditionally used to deny the authoritative position of pastor to women don’t mean what they have traditionally been interpreted to mean (mistranslations, cultural situations, etc.)
Since my own view that women can be pastors is based partly (mostly) on my (admittedly uncommon) belief that there’s no such thing as “pastoral authority” and partly on the belief that the passages normally used to promote the traditional comp view can also be reasonably interpreted to support the egal view, I generally don’t call myself an egalitarian. I’m actually more of an anti-authoritarian-ist. 🙂
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Dee,
You’re right — the dogmatic assertions of certain conservative evangelicals on secondary and tertiary issues can definitely be a stumbling block for intelligent, thinking non-believers. The message cross already has enough of an inherent offense to sinful human nature, in that it says that none of our efforts are good enough to satisty the holiness and justice of God, so we must trust in and rely on the righteusness of Someone Else to be right with God. We don’t need to add aditional offenses like ignorance and arrogance on the part of Christians.
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Uh, oh — anonymouse needs to run and hide, now that the cat is out of the bag that anonymouse is Lydia! 🙂
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Welllll … all dogs are unclean under Jewish and Muslim law, but that only means you can’t eat them, not that you can’t teach them, and since Jesus declared all foods clean, I guess that extends to dogs, or at least to Christian dogs, but just don’t teach them at church, unless they are puppies, in which case you can teach them until they are 3, which is 21 in dog years, the age at which they have full adult rights, such as voting and consuming alcohol.
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It all depends on whether the verses used are interpreted correctly and in context. The prosperity teachers use proof texts, but they are pulling them out of the context of the overall teachings of Scripture, and they often read into the text things that aren’t there (eisegesis). But it’s fine if someone uses a specific text to establish a biblical mandate and they are using the passage correctly. For example, if you point to 1 Thessalonians 4:9 to say that the Bible teaches us to “love one another”, that would be in keeping with the immediate context of the verse and with the rest of the Bible.
Now, if people isolate a few disputable verses on elders/pastors and use those to insist on the comp position, they could very well be guilty of mishandling the Scriptures in a similar way to the prosperity gospel folks.
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I think there is an example of a deaconas (sp?) in the New Testament. That seems normative to me.
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Thanks for a thoughtful response, Junkster. That makes so much sense.
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Totally aside from the comp/egal debate, it seems to me that what are called “elders” in most churches today that espouse elder rule are nothing at all like the concept as described in the Bible.
In Scripture, the function is variously called elder and overseer and pastor (shepherd), all different words to convey different aspects of the same function. They are called elders because they are supposed to teach and promote sound doctrine to the less spiritually mature. They are called overseers because they are supposed to provide spiritual guidance and oversight (like a mentor) for others. And they are called pastors (literally shepherds) because they are supposed to care for the spiritual needs of others. All of these concepts center on service, not rule or authority.
But in the churches I see with elders today, “elders” are mainly a board of decision makers in the business and management of the church as an organization and corporation. Some elders are set up to keep the Sr. Pastor (preacher) in check and hold him accountable; others are set up to be the pastor’s support squad and point men for making sure his vision and wishes are carried out by the rest of the staff and the church members (volunteers).
Other than the use of the term “elder”, I see nothing in common between the biblical concept and the common modern practice.
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Lydia,
That’s right. I have never known you to avoid a lively dialogue.
BTW, I love reading all of your informational comments!
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Michael,
Ok, cool.
So what are these specific duties that husbands and wives have that are specific to one and not the other, and where in Scripture are they found?
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Ditto to that. Lydia is my spiritual hero. How very non-comp of me!
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Anonymouse is someone in the house! :o)
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Anonymous,
I’m assuming you’re Lydia because the response seems like you. I think we are much more on the same page than we know.
I agree with you post positions. I might also add that in the Ephesians passage where apostles,etc. are given, they are given for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry; saints meaning men and women. All saints are to minister and none is superior to the other.
I hate that believers check their brains in at the door and defer thought to leaders in the church and don’t trust the Holy Spirit to lead them into all truth. They also think of their leaders as superior, opening themselves up to abuse by empowering leaders who would lord over them. All believers need to rise up and recognize their intrinsic authority and value in Jesus Christ.
Thank you for your response.
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Junkster,
I don’t think that the scripture lines up a bunch of duties for husbands and wives. Multiple times in various places, scripture tells the woman to submit to her husband or be subject to him as we should be subject to Christ. I also understand that we are to be mutually submitted one to another, as in the case where each has authority over each other’s body.
There is an emphasis on husbands loving his wife the way Christ loved the church and laid down His life for it. But, the wife is also to love her husband.
There is the passage where it tells the husband to live with his wife in an understanding way, as with someone weaker. In the same passage, husbands are to show wives honor as a fellow heir.
A couple of other disctinctive roles at my house are that I am responsible for taking out the trash and if someone breaks in our home in the middle of the night, I’m the one carrying the bat. My wife tends to do more dish cleaning and laundry than I do, but I do some, and she occasionally takes out the trash. I don’t consider myself superior, just because I carry the bat. I honor her by trying to protect her, if needed. She works the garden and I balance our checkbook. So, she’s the boss in the garden and I’m the boss in the checkbook, but, neither of us lord it over the other in those areas.
Either one of us can bring up an idea, but we agree on what we decide to do, accept in areas where one or the other has the greater weight of responsibility and authority, being able to make the decision all by ourselves.
The last two paragraphs are not found in scripture, but they make a lot of sense, as we’ve chosen to use our brains and don’t need instruction from the bible to decide who must take out the trash or tend the garden.
So, I hope you can see that at our house the man and the woman have distinctive roles but are considered equal, as my first post a gillion posts ago said.
I believe you could take the same template, in general, and lay it over the church, in terms of distinctive roles and equality.
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Lydia,
It’s true that, “office,” is not in the Greek. That may be a poor choice of words. I used it, however, to clarify that those functions, or whatever you want to call them, are not the gifts referred to in the same passage;they are in addition to. I brought out the difference because those of the dispensationalist mindset talk about gifts that no longer exist and would throw these functions into that category. In my mind, I think the saints still need equipping and so these functions are still needed. And we need to equip in more ways in which just a pastor would equip. We need all to function to equip fully.
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Junkster,
That’s about right. I would say that when one is functioning as a pastor, apostle, etc., he has authority in what his responsibility is, though. But, there is no superiority or heirarchal structure. I would also point out that the authority is not forever. When I rear my children, I have authority in their lives. But, the whole point of rearing is for them to stand on their own; that’s my goal. If I’ve done my job adequately, at some point that authority ends because my responsibility ends.
In addition, anyone who has ever reared children knows that there are times we need to take correction from our young ones. The fact that we have authority is irrelevant. We need to humbly acknowledge that rebuke and submit to their correct words. The same applies in the church. Leaders need to be open to and accept the correction from those in their care, that they are equipping.
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Junkster,
One phrase caught my attention here. You said, “authority over others.” I think what I’ve been trying to say with regard to leadership functions is, they don’t posses authority over others, they possess authority over their area of responsibility.
If I’m a teacher in the Body of Christ, I make decisions about what ultimately ends up in my teaching and therefore have authority over what I teach and how I teach. Others can influence that but the ultimate decision is mine. That does not mean that I have authority over anyone I teach. Instead, I serve those whom I teach.
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Michael, good point about authority not being forever. When people view certain roles in the body of Christ in an institutional or hierarchal way rather than in terms of the function, they can mistakenly assume that there is permanence in that role. But it’s entirely possible for a believer to start out at the one who need an elder to help them grow in the faith, and then that person grows beyond the level of knowledge and sanctification of their former spiritual elder.
When there is a focus on the position rather than the function, the level of spiritual maturity is not always taken into account as to who should be submitting to who’s wisdom and guidance. But I think our current system of having a paid professional clergy class within the church mitigates against how things really ought to be.
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Thanks, Michael, for the practical examples. I doubt that many egals would have trouble with how you have described varying “roles” in a marriage, as it would seem that they are based on the individual gifts and abilities of each person, and not merely on an arbitrary distinction of gender. If roles within a church are similarly determined, that woild fit with an egalitarian view, also.
But if someone makes a blanket statement that only mean can or should do _____ (fill in the blank), simply because they are male and “God has said that only men can do this”, I believe they are going beyond what Scripture actually teaches.
We both know there are many comps who would equate “biblical manhood and womanhood” with certain culturally conditioned behaviors and activities. This is what I resist, not “authority” per se.
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Michael, I am also not a dispensationalist, but I still think the passage is equating the gifts with those roles. But that’s a minor point that doesn’t change the validity of those roles in my opinion.
However, I would be cautious if someone claimed to be an apostle today, as it would be difficult to ascertain on what authority they made that claim. (Catholics make it in reference to their leadership on the basis of direct succession, but I consider that highly questionable as their doctrine is out of line with the teachings of Jesus and the apostles.)
Perhaps, if someone’s ministry was attested to by miracles and such, that might lend validity to their claim to be an apostle, but we also know that there is such a thing as false miracles, so we’d have to be cautious about that as well.
Maybe it could be a matter of appointment by a local church or denomination, just like evangelists or pastors and teachers, but that doesn’t seem much like the way apostleship was determined in the Bible.
There’s a similar problem with the idea of being a prophet. It also raises the question, says who?
I’m not saying there aren’t or can’t be the roles of apostle and prophet in the church today, but I can understand why it would pose difficulties to determine who really is one.
What do you think?
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That’s a very good perspective, Michael. It is not the way I see many people approaching the concept of authority within the church. Instead I see a focus on “elder rule” and “pastoral authority”, which in paractice are just ways of lording on’es position over others. This is contrary to the Spirit of and direxct teachings of Christ, but it is rampant in churches today.
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Michael, Your responses are confusing. In this thread you also said that we are under human authority in the Body and my view was hogwash. There are more examples but that one stands out.
Unless there is another Michael?
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“It’s true that, “office,” is not in the Greek. That may be a poor choice of words. I used it, however, to clarify that those functions, or whatever you want to call them, are not the gifts referred to in the same passage;they are in addition to.”
This is where we get into trouble. Words mean things to people. They present mental images. And the idea of an “office” in the Body is very state/churchish and Roman. It has NOTHING to do with the Body of Christ as an organism. I might function as a pastor to several in the Body (pastor does not necessarily “preach”)but also have another gift.
When we use the correct description, we get a better result. And that is a huge part of the problem. We view these as offices containing paid professional Christians. Nothing is farther from what the NT teaches.
” I brought out the difference because those of the dispensationalist mindset talk about gifts that no longer exist and would throw these functions into that category.”
I am not dipsy, either, but have not heard this. What gifts do they think no longer exist? Tongues?
” In my mind, I think the saints still need equipping and so these functions are still needed. And we need to equip in more ways in which just a pastor would equip. We need all to function to equip fully.”
Of course, we are to meet to edify, encourage and equip. The problem with our model is that too many believers stay on milk. And it is to the paid “leaders” advantage they stay on milk because they want followers.
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“That was not a red herring. You were absolutely right on. From the beginning of the original thread they have implied that one can’t have a different role and still be equal.”
But we are not talking about “different roles”. We are talking about prohibitions for women in the Body.
You call it a role and say it is not unequal. That is the red herring.
Maybe this will help you to see it from another perspective. What if I told an African American he was were totally equal to me, a white woman, except he cannot teach/pastor white people? Would he consider that equal but having different roles? Of course not.
This example is not far off since many used the same type of proof texting to justify slavery. After all, Jesus did not abolish it.
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“And there have been others. But, that question alone implies to me that unless you are able to fill the same roles as others, you’re not equal to them…you’re inferior.”
To make this clear: This is NOT about different roles. It is about what is taught as PROHIBITIONS for women.
The “roles” is a red herring and is used to assume there ARE different roles spiritually. Their are not.
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Dee,
No contest here about God’s laws making sense. After all, I damn near had a rope around my own neck for stabbin’ the good Dr. Robinson til’ they found out ’twas Injun Joe done it!
Anyhoo, I cannot speak for you on whether it’s right or wrong for you to teach men in a corporate setting. That is a matter for your own conscience to resolve.
I will say this though, there is NO law anywhere in the Old Testament that silences women (1 Cor. 14:34). Dr. Wayne Grudem in his lengthy Jeremiad -Evangelical Feminism and Biblical Truth- makes the claim that even though verse 34 has no specific Old Testament statute that silences women, the Old Testament teaches this concept by inference as a whole. This to me amounts to special pleading arrived at through circular reasoning (Grudem 246)
Even though the consensus among many other scholars is that Paul’s 1st letter to the Corinthians in part was to refute the teachings of the Judaizers, Dr. Grudem denies that Paul is refuting Talmudic teaching about women in verse 34.
Here is where the doggie and his tail show up again. Is Paul refuting the Judaizers or has he become our new Moses legislating anew from Sinai? Which makes more sense?
BTW, I’d love to hear your lectures on the history of Western Protestantism!
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Muff, you are exactly right. And verse 36 proves it.
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Lydia,
I think you get my point. Just because we are a priesthood of believers, without a need for a mediator besides Christ, that does not mean people don’t have areas of responsibility within the church. And with that responsibility comes the authority to fulfill that responsibility. Yep, those that minister within the church do bad things, men and women. That does not mean they did not carry with them, at that time, the authority to do their jobs. The fact that someone does evil does not mean that one who listens to the evil-doer’s teaching is supporting evil. You use the word, “obey.” I would not use that word. But, when someone has the responsibility of teaching, he’s not calling me to ask what he should teach on. He has the authority to teach, not authority over the ones he’s teaching.
No, I’m not a pastor, seminary student, elder, deacon, (or at least not one that is recognized as such). I traveled across the country for nine years singing and ministering in churches. I’ve sung in hundreds of Southern Baptist churches, Calvary Chapels, Assemblies of God, Bible Churches, etc. Some of the places I’ve sung are FBC Dallas, Fellowship Bible, Dallas, Prestonwood BC, Southern Baptist Convention, as well as many small churches. I’ve had a few top 10 songs on Christian radio. So, I have a unique insight into the church because I’ve been in so many and I’ve been exposed to many pastors. I found that about 1/3 are just turds. A few of them have no moral compass at all.
My dad was an Episcopal priest and I accepted the Lord at a Young Life summer camp. I went to a somewhat charismatic church in college where the pastor started manipulating students into homosexual behavior with him. So, I’m well-acquainted with scum that fill our pulpits. I was in public accounting before singing and now I’m a Certified Financial Planning professional and manage investments for clients.
A couple of years ago my membership in our church was terminated by an insecure pastor who is a manipulative liar, who had a bunch of doofus deacons in his back pocket. You could find several of this, “pastor’s,” shallow books in the bookstore. The reason I was ousted was because of their lack of understanding regarding the things we’re talking about on this blog. The pastor, I call him, “The Author,” lied repeatedly to our congregation and I called him on the lies. Then, he lied to me about the lies. Then, he slandered me to a business client. Finally, he told our church we ended in the black, when we really ended the year $70k in the hole, and they were borrowing from designated gifts and not telling anyone. When I told some of these facts in a private conversation to a visitor, acquaintance of mine, who had just left a church for some of the same type of financial offenses, word got back to the gang. Three weeks later I received the call from the church’s attorney. The rest is history. It was the most hurtful, difficult time my family has ever been through.
I know I gave more information that you asked, but I want you to know how much I appreciate where you’re coming from. I agree with much of what you’ve said. I could have dropped a bomb and exposed the dishonesty of the creepy author, but God has not allowed me to up to now. God has been incredibly redeeming in our family and we’re in a wonderful church, where I get to contribute by singing on the praise team. I also teach within our small group.
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Lydia,
Can you be more specific about what’s confusing, so I may clarify?
I think sometimes people are very much in agreement in general over the whole, but debate over the intricacies, which make it seem they are worlds apart. Maybe that is why there might be confusion.
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I think we’re on the same page. Within the church,I don’t see the bible defining roles between men and women.
But, there is a cultural thing there that I can’t deny and wonder how much should play in today’s church. I also wonder why Jesus did not choose any women in the 1st 12. Jesus didn’t mind blowing the old views out of the water. I wonder why He didn’t in choosing the 12.
And since He didn’t and there were so few women who were named pastors or elders or apostles, if women do fill those roles in the church today, should it be the exception and not the rule, as it was back in the day?
These are questions, not statements.
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I can’t agree with you enough. My former, “pastor,” thought that if you were on staff and ordained, you were an elder. What an idiot!
First, elder does mean older. How about the young snot new pastor who is 27 years old and there’s a mature man of faith, 60 years old who has been walking with God for years before this punk pastor was even born. Who should submit to whom?
The pastor should be the one who needs to show deference to the elder, in my opinion; not that he is superior, but just wiser.
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Michael, I had a similar experience as a child because my mom was in music ministry and I was in hundreds of churches, at tons of events, etc.
“And with that responsibility comes the authority to fulfill that responsibility.”
Where does that authority come from? A title? This really needs to be delved into. The human has no authority. The authority is in the truth of the Word. If they are a false teacher they are an orator.
” Yep, those that minister within the church do bad things, men and women. That does not mean they did not carry with them, at that time, the authority to do their jobs.”
This seems strange to me. It just does not fit into a spiritual framework. Think of the implications of what you are saying. Take Matt Baker for example. he is pastoring and having affairs. This ends in him killing his wife. All this time he is claiming he has the indwelling Holy Spirit and acting as if people should listen to him as a preacher/teacher. All that time he was not convicted of his heinous sins until he was caught.
All authority in the Body comes from Christ through His Word to us. The human is only a messenger or instrument. They are actually servants. As part of the priesthood, we should want accountability and we should judge what is taught based on what the Holy Spirit has taught us through our study.
” The fact that someone does evil does not mean that one who listens to the evil-doer’s teaching is supporting evil.”
Yes it does because they are “paid professionals” being supported in their evil with the money of those trusting them. We do not get to declare we are innocent in this. They could not continue evil without followers supporting them. We must take responsibility for what we promote and support. This is an area of discernment that is lacking. And I blame the lack of teaching on the indwelling Holy spirit in a believers life.
” You use the word, “obey.” I would not use that word.”
Then what is the use of using the word “authority” if obedience to that authority is non existent?
” But, when someone has the responsibility of teaching, he’s not calling me to ask what he should teach on. He has the authority to teach, not authority over the ones he’s teaching.”
Actually, if we look at 1 Corin closely, Paul advises a model that those who do teach are judged on what they teach. If we did this, it would stop a lot of false teaching and the idolatry of celebrity preachers. But then, it would require that folks are in the Word and not depending on one person to teach them what is in it. They would depend on the Holy Spirit.
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I agree it’s difficult. I’ve had people say that I was a prophet, but I would never make that claim about myself, even if it was true.
I understand that some say that the sign of apostles is miracles. I know the verse, but it just indicates to me that signs and miracles followed them, but the verse did not say that they were necessary for one to be an apostle, nor does it say that only apostles can perform signs, wonders, and miracles. Prophets could as well.
The difficulty is that we hyper-spiritualize these ministries and lift them up beyond what they should be, the way we do to pastors today. I say if it’s not fleshed out practically, functionally, than it should not be seen as spiritual. If we see someone who is sent, planting churches, and there happen to be some miracles following, couldn’t they be fuctioning as an apostle?
Overall, though, I understand and agree with your concerns. But the greater concern is that we feel the need to label them as such, instead of recognizing that they are operating and functioning as they should.
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“But, there is a cultural thing there that I can’t deny and wonder how much should play in today’s church. I also wonder why Jesus did not choose any women in the 1st 12. Jesus didn’t mind blowing the old views out of the water. I wonder why He didn’t in choosing the 12.”
They are prophetic and map to the 12 tribes. There are no Gentiles, either. And only one was considered educated for the function of a ‘rabbi’. (they were not the cream of the crop but definite ‘losers’ in the rabinnical mold). Only Paul fit the rabbinical mold and he was sent to the Gentiles!
Another reason is that a woman in the 1st Century were not considered by the culture a legal witness. (If you remember, Peter did not believe Mary M about the resurrection)
However, we see things in scripture that defy what is taught today as doctrinal truth. Jesus had women following Him around and supporting Him financially. One, Joanne, was married at the time. Jesus appeared to a woman first after the resurrection. Why? Coincidence? there is more, but you get the picture.
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Lydia,
Acts 1:20 and I Timothy 3:1 use the word office. Acts refers to someone taking Judas’ office as an apostle. Timothy refers to the office of an elder. You can see look at the Greek and hash it out, but it seems like a valid translation to me, to use office. If it’s used in Acts, it would accurately describe the five mentioned in Ephesians. To reiterate, the five mentioned in Ephesians are not gifts; that is what’s off and confusing people.
They say, at a minimum, tongues, miracles, healing, and prophesy no longer exist. Just add to that list anything they can’t intellectualize or grasp with their minds.
Yep, Christians need to mature and get off milk. Amen to that! But I don’t think the motive of all paid ministers is to have a following. But, they’d be out of a job if they didn’t have anyone showing up on Sunday mornings. So, I’ll agree with you in part.
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That’s why there were warnings not to lord over.
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And you know, I am always amazed that “Chloe” had “people”. :o)
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I’m not talking prohibitions, I’m talking roles and practicality. I maintain that there are different roles and they are not unequal.
Theory aside, how many white people do you think will attend a church with an African/American pastor? They would be in the minority. That would not make him inferior, though.
How many men do you think would attend a church with a woman pastor? I guarantee, they would be in the minority; a smaller minority of men than already exists in the church. That wouldn’t make her inferior, though.
The African American pastor might find that it makes more sense to minister to those whom he’s more alike because of what they share in common, culturally. Same goes for Mexican pastors. That’s a good thing, not a bad thing.
And a women might find that there’s another place that she can reach more people and be more effective, than to be the lead pastor in a church. But, if she chooses not to, that’s her choice, there’s no prohibition. It just may not be that wise. Yet, she’s still equal.
There’s also no prohibition against long-haired tatooed ex-bikers who want to minister in white-collar wealthy areas. But who are they more likely to reach and relate to effectively? To say they might fit better in a different role is not to say they are unequal.
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Michael
I believe that you may be right but it is so very sad. In heaven, there will be people of all races fellowshipping together. What is it with the hardness of heart that keeps us separate? Is it really a good thing? Or do we not care to learn to fellowship with one another? May God forgive us.
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Good thoughts, Michael.
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Amen to that!
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Amen again!
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And another amen! 🙂
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Michael
Yet many of these punk pastors dismiss the older folks for the young, hip crowd.
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I might when I have more time but comments are so hard to find in this sort of thread where they are interspersed everywhere. Let’s just say that you seem to agree when responded to but some of your comments, like the one you say my view is hogwash, when it comes to authority in the Body.
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Have you checked those passages in an interlinear?
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Wow, how can you say that? I feel the same way about you. And you are nicer, too.
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Micheal, you say you are talking about roles but then do not define them specifically in the Body. What are they?
I think your problem is that IF you do actually describe them specifically, there are actually prohibitions in most churches which means the “roles” are not equal.
What you are really telling women is to get out of the system if they want to exercise these functions. They can pastor/preach but not for pay in the system.
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BTW: FBC Decater, Ga was disfellowshipped from the SBC for having a woman pastor.
Yet, other SBC churches that have protected sexual perverts or coddled pedophiles were not disfellowshipped.
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Lydia,
Do you have scriptural evidence that they map from the twelve tribes?
Also, Jesus was a culture-buster, so I’m not so sure He was locked in to not appointing a woman apostle; he appointed a thief.
By doing so, Jesus could have cleared up this whole conversation. Well, He would have had to appoint 1/2 women because anything short, people would say there should be more men than women in these types of roles.
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True,
That just proves their ignorance and why they need these elder, wiser, men and women in their lives to give them counsel.
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Yes. They still check out, in my opinion.
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Lydia,
Yesterday, I posted that the bible does not speak much about the roles of men vs. women functioning within the church. I don’t need to rewrite the ones that do because they have already been mentioned multiple times and debated.
“I think your problem is…”
I don’t have a problem.
The fact that some churches prohibit women from fulfilling certain roles is not me doing that. Furthermore, I haven’t told any woman to get out of the system for any reason, so look somewhere else if you feel the need to hang that on someone. I mentioned in an earlier post for women to go for it. Let them go win the lost, start a church. What are they waiting for…permission? If God called them to it, truly, then do it.
And if women get paid for it, fine. I don’t care. But, I’m more in the camp of no one getting paid for it. Aren’t we all supposed to be ministering? Yet we all have our jobs outside of the church we get paid for. Why in the heck does some pastor get to mooch off the congregation, sit around all week long and write a sermon he gets to put in a book and make money on the side without reimbursing the congregation, all the while teaching a false doctrine on tithing? Oh yeah, and get speaking engagements from pastors scratching each others backs.
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Yeah, that’s crazy. They may disagree doctinally, but it’s not a sin. However,
I am glad they disfellowshipped a Nashville church because the woman pastor was living in a lesbian relationship.
And the churches that were not disfellowshipped should have been if they were unwilling to bring correction to these situations. If they were willing, then there would be no need to disfellowship them.
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I think it is a good thing to use our gifts wisely, appealing to those who we can impact the most. I’m not sure it’s hardness of heart as much as it is preference. Having said that, I do desire to worship with other races. Frankly, though, I don’t do so well going to my mother-in-law’s Spanish church because I don’t understand much of what the pastor is saying.
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Lydia,
I’ll answer the roles question this way:
Do you think it’s wise to have a 22 year old college boy teaching high school or junior high school girls? How about spending time with them discipling or mentoring them?
I don’t think it is wise. The older women are to teach the younger women, right?
Does that make the 22 year old college boy less or inferior than an older woman who teaches the girls? I don’t think so. Different roles, but equal.
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Michael,
What about a 25 year old pastor teaching the singles, both men and women?
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I’d have to give that some thought. The point is in all this, where there may not be scriptures pointing out all the do’s and don’ts, there is some obvious wisdom related to gender within the church, related to accountability.
I don’t think it would be wise for a man to counsel or teach a married woman regarding intimacy issues with her husband in a private setting. To me, it’s clear that a woman should fill that role. As a result, I don’t think men would be crying foul that they don’t get to do that and that they are being considered inferior or unequal because they don’t get to counsel the woman.
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“I don’t think it would be wise for a man to counsel or teach a married woman regarding intimacy issues with her husband in a private setting.”
The real question is why is anyone in the Body counseling anyone else on their “intimacy” issues? That only shows how much the world has entered the church. Great sex seems to be a recent (within the last 100 years or so) emotional problem needing spiritual counseling for. Sheesh!
The counseling answer is: Seek first the kingdom of God…
If there was less focus on the whole gender issue and more on “spiritual” issues, these “counseling sessions” would not be needed. It is really becoming ridiculous.
Has anyone else noticed that sex has become quite the hot topic in many Christian circles? Sometimes I think the underpinnings of the whole comp movement is really about sex and power.
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“I don’t need to rewrite the ones that do because they have already been mentioned multiple times and debated.”
They have? I am not clear on what scriptures you think are clear on gender roles.
I do agree about ministers being paid. Christianity is big business in America.
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Michael, Do you think they should disfellowship a church because the pastor committed adultery and the church kept him on?
Isn’t sexual sin, all sin?
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Absolutely.
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Nothing like going off on some rabbit trail and missing the whole point.
First, to deal with the rabbit trail, people DO need counseling, even when they are strong believers seeking God’s kingdom. And maybe that counseling is pointing them to a spiritual focus when there has not been one.
Titus 2:3,4 says, “OLDER WOMEN likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the YOUNGER WOMEN to love their husbands, …”
A. Older women are to teach and encourage younger women. – That’s a ROLE!
B. “Encourage,” in the Greek means, “To restore one to his senses, to moderate, to control, to hold one to his duty, to cause to be of sound mind.” I don’t know how that would exclude some level of counseling, not necessarily in the formal sense.
C.Part of loving one’s husband DOES involve intimate relations. I Corinthians 7:5 says, “Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.”
Yes, the apostle Paul thought it was important enough to include. It obviously is not a new hot topic, but one that has been around for thousands of years.
Now that the rabbit trail is dealt with, let’s get to the point:
The point is the appropriateness of whether a woman should counsel another woman or a man should counsel her, especially regarding delicate issues. And in my earlier post, whether it would be wise for young boys or men to be teaching young girls. Both were in response to your question about roles of men and women.
My conclusion was, it’s wiser and more biblical for women to fill those roles.
And as a result, men should not be crying foul and saying that women are acting superior and men are less equal than women, just because they don’t get to function in those womanly roles.
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“Nothing like going off on some rabbit trail and missing the whole point.”
Michael, It is not a rabbit trail. What passes for “counseling” these days is ridiculous. It is also a money maker for churches because many charge and have large counseling staffs. The last mega I consulted in had 2 counseling departments. One for members and outsiders and one for staff only. The former had 10 full time counselors who stayed busy. The latter had 2 full time and 2 part time for a staff of 500 employees. And they stayed busy.
In one of Vanderhoven’s books, he talked about a woman who came to him with some serious problems. Her home was not a safe place so he called a couple in his church that he totally trusted and they came and got this woman and she lived with them for a while until they helped her get on her feet. During this time, they “pastored”/discipled her. This is the Body at work. this is “counseling” as it should be in the Body.
“irst, to deal with the rabbit trail, people DO need counseling, even when they are strong believers seeking God’s kingdom. And maybe that counseling is pointing them to a spiritual focus when there has not been one.”
I only wish it were! That is not the norm. Usually it points to the comp rules, roles and formula’s for pink and blue Christianity. It only makes the situation worse with a work based Christianity.
“itus 2:3,4 says, “OLDER WOMEN likewise are to be reverent in their behavior, not malicious gossips nor enslaved to much wine, teaching what is good, so that they may encourage the YOUNGER WOMEN to love their husbands, …”
A. Older women are to teach and encourage younger women. – That’s a ROLE!”
Where was Titus?
“: “Encourage,” in the Greek means, “To restore one to his senses, to moderate, to control, to hold one to his duty, to cause to be of sound mind.” I don’t know how that would exclude some level of counseling, not necessarily in the formal sense.”
But those older women did not have backgrounds in counseling. And how do you know those older women actually loved their husbands? The older women could have been a problem in another church. They might have all been fertility priestesses or something.
(This is why one must not proof text for specific roles. Paul knew the audience and the problems in Crete.)
“.Part of loving one’s husband DOES involve intimate relations. I Corinthians 7:5 says, “Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.”
So, why not have them read 1 Corin 7 and pray? What is to talk about? I am a big prude when it comes to this because the discussion about sex is way out of hand. It is now a money maker for most mega churches.
“es, the apostle Paul thought it was important enough to include. It obviously is not a new hot topic, but one that has been around for thousands of years.”
Yes, he was writing to Titus about a situation in Crete…with the Cretins. I wonder why the Corinthian women were not given the same advice? Or the Philippian woman? Suppose they did not have the same problem? Let’s say you have a new church plant and most of the older women were converted Muslims but the younger women in the church were raised as believers. Would you send the older women to teach the younger?
“he point is the appropriateness of whether a woman should counsel another woman or a man should counsel her, especially regarding delicate issues. And in my earlier post, whether it would be wise for young boys or men to be teaching young girls. Both were in response to your question about roles of men and women.”
I don’t have a problem with what you are saying. It is natural for a woman to ask another woman about intimate issues. My point is that we set up unrealistic expectations in marriage with comp teaching and then we have huge counseling needs. Trust me when I tell you the #1 topic for counselors in comp churches are marriages. And their advice only makes the situation worse.
“y conclusion was, it’s wiser and more biblical for women to fill those roles.”
It is not a role. It would be a discipling function.
“nd as a result, men should not be crying foul and saying that women are acting superior and men are less equal than women, just because they don’t get to function in those womanly roles.”
Nice try but silly. They are not crying foul because the men have set themselves up as the authority over all the functions anyway. :o)
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Lydia,
I really appreciate your insights. You are giving us all kinds of ideas for future posts. These issues definitely need to be discussed.
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Lydia,
I think it is a rabbit trail. I give you two valid scenarios about how women vs. men might function within a church and you launch into some side issues regarding sex and counseling, all the while not really addressing the main point. The point made, in case you missed it was, women can, “function,” “disciple,” “fulfill a role,” whatever YOU want to call it, in a different way or in a way that a man shouldn’t, and the man should not be considered less than the woman. And it works the other way around, too.
But you’re right, no Christian should ever get counseling because of all the evil comp infiltrators trying to brainwash believers. They are all motivated by the desire to suppress women. None of them has any desire to see people well. All their years of training and money spent learning how to counsel was all so they could be instruments of Satan, keeping men as the head and women from advancing, under the lordship of her husband and the wicked brute pastors.
Next time I see my friend who was sexually abused by Satan worshippers when he was a kid and was foolish enough to go to counseling for help, I’ll be sure to remind him that his counselor really had a secret agenda, you know, to make sure he was still keeping an iron grip on his wife and to make sure he was supporting men in the pulpit who would support the comp view. Yeah, that’s it. That’s what I’ll tell him.
Your right, I was just taking one verse and applying it far too liberally. How foolish to presume that an older woman believer would love her husband. She probably hated his guts for his widespread comp views. And the instructions to Titus by the apostle Paul was just that ornery wicked apostle trying to force those suppressed women to teach the younger women to be doormats as well.
Lydia, I think I’ve come to the right solution. What needs to happen is YOU need to translate the bible and then add your footnotes. You can instruct all of us ignorant men exactly when and where former translators were bias, how instructions to one group of people should not be misapplied to another, and when we should be aware that certain scriptures are written specifically to suppress women. You can call the version, Lydia’s Living Comp Version. Make sure you let the reader know that men must have the new version read to him by a woman certified in comp detection methods.
Right, Lydia, it’s a discipling function, not a role. Just change the word and then you don’t have to deal with a valid point. Deconstruct it. Uh, isn’t the whole thing about discipling? Let’s go down another rabbit trail, shall we?
Okay, let’s call it your word, discipling. Should a man or woman “disciple” a younger woman, if the younger woman needs discipling? (Let’s pretend for a minute that you can’t think of some extreme off-the- subject, irrelevant argument to squirm out of and avoid this question). If the answer is a woman, should I say you’re being unequal, or should I start developing an attitude about the superiority of women because they get to disciple young females and I don’t? I’m asking the question again because you copped out last time.
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Michael,
What is your problem? I’m REALLY TIRED of your rants. Lighten up!
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“Next time I see my friend who was sexually abused by Satan worshippers when he was a kid and was foolish enough to go to counseling for help, I’ll be sure to remind him that his counselor really had a secret agenda, you know, to make sure he was still keeping an iron grip on his wife and to make sure he was supporting men in the pulpit who would support the comp view. Yeah, that’s it. That’s what I’ll tell him.”
Michael, Now we are talking about sexual abuse? I thought we were talking about intimacy between husbands and wives in the Body. First of all, I hope the Counselor called the authorities. Sexual abuse is a whole other ballgame, friend. And unfortuantly, the church, pastors and even many counselors in the churche are not really equipped for this type of counseling. Many times they make it worse by telling the victim they need to forgive right away. I have seen that over and over. Then the victims becomes the sinner. It is very sad to see that more damage is often done. Many times the abuse happens within the church Body and the church is the LAST place they should go for counseling.
Other than that, I think I hit a nerve. Sorry about that. I just do not think you can take a situation in Crete that Paul was writing to Titus about and make a blanket assumption. Not all OLDER women are going to teach the younger ones the right things. Haven’t you ever met a bitter old woman in any church you have ever been in? We have to apply discernment to any passage we are trying to make one size fits all that is not in and of itself, salvic.
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Lydia,
No nerve hit, you’re reading too much into my post. Actually, I think it was a pretty funny.
“I just do not think you can take a situation in Crete that Paul was writing to Titus about and make a blanket assumption.”
Are you saying that the older women are NOT to be reverent in their behavior?
Are you saying that it’s okay for the older women to be malicious gossips?
Are you saying that it’s okay for the older women to be enslaved to much wine?
Are you saying that the older women should teach something bad instead of something good?
Are you saying that the older women should not encourage the younger women, but discourage them?
Are you saying that the older women should encourage the younger women to NOT love their husbands?
Lydia, I understand where you’re coming from and understand that we may not be able to apply something written to one group of people to another group or broadly as blanket instructions for all. On the other hand, we also have to consider whether or not they are instructions to us, since this is a part of the bible, not just a letter written to one man, Titus.
“Not all OLDER women are going to teach the younger ones the right things.”
Right, that’s why Paul was telling them WHAT to teach and WHAT to encourage the younger women in.
“Michael, Now we are talking about sexual abuse?”
No, Lydia, that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about how men and women can serve different functions within the church and still be equal. And I’ve posed two scenarios to you that you still have not answered.
1. If a younger woman needs discipling, would it be wiser for a man or for a woman to disciple her?
2. If a woman needs to talk about delicate issues, is it preferable that she talk with a woman or a man?
What do you think? This is the third time I’ve asked these questions in various forms. I’d like an answer.
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Deb,
I don’t have a problem. I am light. I thought my last post was appropriately sarcastic and it made me laugh. I needed a good laugh to maintain sanity.
I think Lydia has been avoiding answering honestly valid points I’ve been making. She has done this by:
1. Claiming translator bias.
2. Answering questions with questions.
3. Just not answering the question at all, even though asked multiple times.
4. Changing the subject by chasing a rabbit that has nothing to do with the focus of our conversation.
5. Claim proof texting for every scripture that proves a valid point.
I’m not fooled by these shallow tactics, just tired of them. I would prefer a dialogue with more humility, transparency, and honestly. But I don’t think I’m going to get it with her. I will no longer attempt to place the magnet on top of the other magnet because I know it’s an exercise in futility.
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“Are you saying that the older women are NOT to be reverent in their behavior?
Are you saying that it’s okay for the older women to be malicious gossips?
Are you saying that it’s okay for the older women to be enslaved to much wine?
Are you saying that the older women should teach something bad instead of something good?
Are you saying that the older women should not encourage the younger women, but discourage them?
Are you saying that the older women should encourage the younger women to NOT love their husbands?”
Michael, The question was a role for older women that you picked out of Titus, to teach the younger women.
My point was that not ALL OLDER WOMEN IN ALL CHURCHES FOR ALL TIME ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO TEACH THOSE THINGS.
You described it as a role for all older women in all churches. I am simply saying applying that to all churches for all time could be a problem. Paul knew the situation at Crete.
“Lydia, I understand where you’re coming from and understand that we may not be able to apply something written to one group of people to another group or broadly as blanket instructions for all. On the other hand, we also have to consider whether or not they are instructions to us, since this is a part of the bible, not just a letter written to one man, Titus.”
I hate to break it to you but it is a letter written to one man, Titus. It is Inspired by the Holy Spirit and we can see how certain situations were handled. But even then, we are reading a one sided conversation.
If you think we follow all instructions in every Epistle to the letter then I am hoping you greet your brothers with a Holy Kiss. That would be your greeting ‘role’. :o)
“Right, that’s why Paul was telling them WHAT to teach and WHAT to encourage the younger women in.”
But wouldn’t they need to know these things themselves and have experienced them to teach them? How does one teach another to love their husband if they don’t love their own? Once again, Paul knew the situation. And there was an obvious problem and Paul was informed of the players. We cannot assume from Titus that all older women in every church can teach the younger to love their husbands. Our churches are already filled with unbelievers as it is.
“No, Lydia, that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about how men and women can serve different functions within the church and still be equal. And I’ve posed two scenarios to you that you still have not answered.”
Ok, (I think you changed the subject to sexual abuse counseling but that is ok) let’s go with that. The only problem with your scenerios is that most churches teach that women teaching men is a sin. They cannot preach (sacred furniture, of course, on stage) so how is that equal? That is a prohibition on women.
You are trying to equal it up by saying that only women can counsel women and that somehow evens up the prohibitions. Because men could whine about not being able to counsel women. But the problem with your scenerio is that men counsel women all the time and do not listen to Micheal. :o)
“2. If a woman needs to talk about delicate issues, is it preferable that she talk with a woman or a man?”
I think most women SHOULD gravitate to another woman in the Body they have a close relationship with and think are wise spiritually. I do not think you can “designate” someone within the Body for that sort of thing. Obviously, in Crete, Paul knew the situation.
But many times they have been taught that the pastor is all knowing and the authority so they think they must go to him. It is one way pastors keep their control over all things. In mega churches they have a pastor for everything so they would be told to go to him. And he would refer them to counseling for a fee.
“What do you think? This is the third time I’ve asked these questions in various forms. I’d like an answer.”
they have been answered. You just did not like the answers. You want to apply the counsel to Crete to all churches for all time but some older women might hate their husbands!
If we must apply it, then you must start kissing the guys at church,hello. :o)
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“1. Claiming translator bias.”
Surely you do not think translators are inerrant? Some even describe the virgin Mary as a “young woman” in Isaiah. For a reason. That is a Jewish translation. There are tons of other examples.
“2. Answering questions with questions.”
When someone asks the equivalent of “how long have you been beating your wife”, it is best to ask more questions instead of answering. When a wrong assumption is made in a question, it is foolhardy to answer the question.
“3. Just not answering the question at all, even though asked multiple times.”
I sincerely thought I had made my position clear.
“4. Changing the subject by chasing a rabbit that has nothing to do with the focus of our conversation.”
I sincerely thought that counseling included your idea of roles for genders. I do have serious reservations about what passes for “counseling” in most churches. So, I did not want to discuss something giving the impression I was endorsing something in the church that I know has caused many more problems.
“5. Claim proof texting for every scripture that proves a valid point.”
I cannot imagine receiving a long letter giving advice to a specific situation then taking out that one passage and declaring it as applicable to every situation for all time. I would also have to seek to know the Letter Writer in light of all the letters He wrote and other narratives He Inspired to be written by others.
For example, if the letter writer told me to take a bit of wine for my stomach, I would not presuppose that all adults in the Body for all time should drink wine.
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Lydia,
Thanks for your response.
“My point was that not ALL OLDER WOMEN IN ALL CHURCHES FOR ALL TIME ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO TEACH THOSE THINGS. ”
Everyone gets it, that you can’t always apply instructions given to one person and make a rule out of it for everyone. I’ve already acknowledged your point about this in earlier posts. And, yes, I know that the letter was written to one man, Titus.
“I hate to break it to you, but it is a letter written to one man, Titus.”
Duh. But, it is also considered scripture and useful and applicable to us. And as you stated earlier, we need to use discernment regarding whether or not it applies to us. The frustration on my part is that you tend not to commit, one way or the other, as to what your opinion is regarding things.
It’s not a valid argument to say that the scripture MAY not apply. The reason is, if it MAY NOT, it also MAY apply. A VALID argument would be to commit, saying, It does not apply because Paul knew that the women, indeed, were not loving their husbands, and provide proof why it would not apply elsewhere. It is not sufficient to say it may not apply and give some hypothetical scenario to prove the point of proof texting. In addition, you could draw out the proof texting argument to the ridiculous. I could say that none of the 10 Commandments apply to me, and I’m free to murder with a clear conscience, because they were written to the Jews, not Gentiles. Or, they were not written to 21st century American believers, so they are not instructive to us.
Likewise, if you claim proof texting in this passage, then I could respond, “Great, then older women, elsewhere, can be irreverent, drunk, malicious gossips, who can teach younger women how to be bad, and who may discourage the younger women from loving their husbands. Thus, their behavior would not be considered sinful.
“The only problem with your scenerios is that most churches teach that women teaching men is a sin. They cannot preach (sacred furniture, of course, on stage) so how is that equal? That is a prohibition on women.”
Lydia, I am not trying to address this issue based on what most churches teach. Most churches are completely out of wack and their theology is messed up and shallow. However, you might be reading my comments with that as your point of reference, making it more difficult to understand where I am coming from. But, I’ll say it again, for the upteenth time; I am not the one prohibiting women from teaching or preaching. Let them preach or teach for all I care. It’s better that they do than don’t, so others might be saved and discipled, etc. I don’t see prohibitions in scripture, as I’ve said before, regarding women teaching and preaching. And the scriptures that do prohibit, I’ll still have questions about, so I’m not laying down any definitive rules.
“You are trying to equal it up by saying that only women can counsel women and that somehow evens up the prohibitions. Because men could whine about not being able to counsel women. But the problem with your scenerio is that men counsel women all the time and do not listen to Micheal. )
I think the scenario holds and proves what I intended it to prove. The fact that men counsel women doesn’t mean they should. That’s just another case of pastoral stupidity. If they had more wisdom, they should have some prohibitions on themselves regarding counseling women. That’s the point. I’m not making a blanket statement about who should counsel whom. I’m making a point that men and women are different and function differently, and those differences are for everyone’s good. But, those differences do not make them unequal. Men are not superior to women.
I think when you read Dee’s thoughtful post about all the questions she has, it’s obvious that most churches are not consistent in their theology.
“I do not think you can “designate” someone within the Body for that sort of thing.”
I’m not suggesting that they do.
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Alright, I’ll lighten up on these points. Without knowing you, it’s hard to know if you’re doing some things intentionally or unintentionally. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt.
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“The frustration on my part is that you tend not to commit, one way or the other, as to what your opinion is regarding things.”
How can I commit when I do not know the specific situation? That is exactly what discernment that comes from the Holy Spirit is for. The older women might be former cultists and should not teach the younger women. I have to take ALL scripture into the equation, too.
“It’s not a valid argument to say that the scripture MAY not apply. The reason is, if it MAY NOT, it also MAY apply. A VALID argument would be to commit, saying, It does not apply because Paul knew that the women, indeed, were not loving their husbands, and provide proof why it would not apply elsewhere. It is not sufficient to say it may not apply and give some hypothetical scenario to prove the point of proof texting. In addition, you could draw out the proof texting argument to the ridiculous.”
So, what about the Holy kiss for men greeting other men. Does that apply or not apply? And why not?
The teaching in Titus might not have applied well in Ephesus,for example, where there was the huge Fertility Cult Temple and many women, including older women, were priestesses who might have converted to Christianity. (This could very well be the case with the woman in 1 Tim 2 who was deceived and “authenteo” her husband. Paul did not name names with her, like he did for Hy and Al because he thought she was deceived out of ignorance and needed to be taught correctly)
” I could say that none of the 10 Commandments apply to me, and I’m free to murder with a clear conscience, because they were written to the Jews, not Gentiles. Or, they were not written to 21st century American believers, so they are not instructive to us.”
Oh Boy. I am going to open a huge can of worms. Actually you are NOT under the 10C. But you are also not free to murder, either. We have a new commandment of Love and now, as a believer, you have the indwelling Holy Spirit and no longer need the law as your tutor. With the indwelling Holy Spirit, you will not even want to hate someone which is considered just like murder in the New Covenant.
If you think we are still under the 10C then ask yourself if the early church was in sin for not keeping the Sabbath Holy?
“ikewise, if you claim proof texting in this passage, then I could respond, “Great, then older women, elsewhere, can be irreverent, drunk, malicious gossips, who can teach younger women how to be bad, and who may discourage the younger women from loving their husbands. Thus, their behavior would not be considered sinful.”
Why on earth would you respond like that? It makes no sense for believers to behave such.
“’m making a point that men and women are different and function differently, and those differences are for everyone’s good. But, those differences do not make them unequal. Men are not superior to women.”
Would you list for me the spiritual differences between men and women?
And then list the non biological differences between men and women and lets see if they are cultural differences or not. We went down this road before and I mentioned me being able to rescue tiny Russell Moore from a burning building as an example. For example, Some say that women are inherently more emotional than men. But can we say that is an inherent trait or a learned one?
Besides our male and female body parts, what are the big spiritual differences you see?
““I do not think you can “designate” someone within the Body for that sort of thing.”
I’m not suggesting that they do.”
That was not the impression I got. Let’s take your verse, for example, about the older women teaching the younger. Can you imagine a pastor saying, now all young ladies leave the room while I teach about loving your spouse. That is reserved only for the older women to teach you. Would that narrow interpretation apply to that verse?
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Lydia,
“How can I commit when I do not know the specific situation? ”
That’s the point. It looks like you missed it. You DON’T know the situation in Titus, so it’s an invalid argument to claim proof texting. If you did know the specifics, you could actually make a VALID argument.
“So, what about the Holy kiss for men greeting other men. Does that apply or not apply? And why not?”
And you called MY earlier question silly? No need to answer the question. The answer is obvious.
“The teaching in Titus might not have applied well in Ephesus,for example…”
Another example of the proof texting argument. When will you accept that I get the point? I’ve told you multiple times, WE GET IT! No need to keep reiterating the proof texting argument, ad nauseum.
“Actually you are NOT under the 10C. But you are also not free to murder, either. We have a new commandment of Love…”
I already know what you’re referring to regarding the New Covenant, so I’m not going to get off topic to chase another rabbit, discussing the New Covenant. The point is, you can take almost any verse and claim proof texting, and not provide any substantiation for it. And that’s what you’ve done multiple times, all the while using one verse as the foundation for your beliefs.
“Why on earth would you respond like that? It makes no sense for believers to behave such.”
Right, thus giving credibility and more weight to my view that the scripture we’re discussing does apply to women outside of Crete. Your proof texting argument doesn’t wash.
Frankly, the more you try to teach me stuff I already know, the more open I’ve become to the verse where Paul says that he doesn’t allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man.
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Am I the only one that finds Michaels comments seem to have some cognitive dissonance? What should be an amicable debate is degenerating to the point, I am not much interested anymore.
“Why on earth would you respond like that? It makes no sense for believers to behave such.”
Right, thus giving credibility and more weight to my view that the scripture we’re discussing does apply to women outside of Crete. Your proof texting argument doesn’t wash.”
Michael, what on earth does that have to do with your insistence of the role of ONLY older women teaching the younger women in the Body for all time?
This is going in circles. Let’s stop. Your last paragraph was meant to insult and is not correct anyway.
Paul never said all women for all time are not to teach men. The grammar in that passage is singular. ONE woman in Ephesus…
It cannot be a good interpretation because there is no prohibition in the OT against women teaching men. So why more legalism in the NC?
And it is not a correct translation of “authenteo”, which is used ONE time in the NT, as ‘exercise authority over’. It is just not used in Koine Greek like that. In Koine Greek it was used to denote murder or kill as in false teaching.
I do not take offense at you at all. But what is the point when it is degenerating like this? Now, with your last paragraph, you are trying to blame me for your changing your view about women teaching men which you have said in comments you have no problem with. I would hope you would not allow a human to change your view but the Holy Spirit, only.
Grace to you.
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Lydia,
I love the example in, More Evidence That Demands a Verdict, where Josh McDowell talks about a woman, I believe, who honestly believes that she is dead. She goes to a therapist who convinces her, over time, that dead people don’t bleed. Finally, when the therapist thinks the time is right, he pricks her finger and she starts bleeding. Then she says, “Wow, dead people bleed after all!”
The point is, there was no way that she was ever going to accept evidence that was contrary to her presupposition. I’m not trying to be mean, but I think that’s true of you, regarding this issue. I don’t detect any openness to valid points that contradict your already established beliefs. Please consider whether or not this is true.
“Michael, what on earth does that have to do with your insistence of the role of ONLY older women teaching the younger women in the Body for all time? ”
Lydia, you are adding to what I’ve said. I never wrote, “ONLY,” and I never wrote, “for all time.” And that’s what’s frustrating, because you’re reading into something that’s not there, then arguing over the part you added. I quoted the verse verbatim and the verse doesn’t contain, “ONLY,” or, “for all time.”
Then I presented a couple of scenarios and asked YOU for YOUR opinion. I did not dictate the answer. So it’s hard to have a stimulating debate when points are missed and words and different meanings are added to what I’ve written, only to have you argue with words and meanings you’ve added.
“Paul never said all women for all time are not to teach men. The grammar in that passage is singular. ONE woman in Ephesus…”
Again, Lydia, neither am I laying down any prohibitions. I’ve said that repeatedly. So, I’m not adding any legalism to the NT. The point is, there are situations where it is more appropriate and more beneficial that a women minister than a man. A man should not fill that ministry opportunity when it’s more appropriate that a woman fill it. And there’s no legalism in that either.
I’m not a Greek scholar, so you may be right about the grammar being singular. But, it’s clear that the meaning is plural. If you said, “An aged woman should teach a young woman,” it’s understood, especially looking at the context, that the writer is not speaking specifically of a certain old woman and a certain young woman. It’s understood that he means, “Aged women and young women,” plural.
I think that the modern church, with paid ministers and their hierarchical structures cloud out what we should be seeing in scripture. We’ve seen a wrong template for so long, it has become a point of reference for us, when it shouldn’t. And I think you have been arguing against what you think I’m writing, thinking I’m deriving my truth from that wrong, modern church template. I’m not.
I think you’re right about “authenteo,” but I think you’re wrongly dismissing other words like, “hypotasso,” used in Col. 3:18 which means to arrange under, to subordinate, put in subjection, obey, submit to one’s control. I don’t think you could argue proof texting, effectively, because the passage is just a general list of instructions that don’t seem to be dealing with anything particular, except godly behavior. And, although slaves are mentioned and I do not agree with slavery, it was a reality then and the passage was godly instruction to them, as well. Obviously, it would not apply to those who are not slaves, then or now.
The word, “hypotasso,” is also used in Titus 2:5, again instructing wives to be subject to their husbands, further debunking a proof texting argument. I Corinthians 14 uses the word, as well, related to a woman speaking in church. Admittedly, the context there is harder to grasp, since we don’t have a clear concept of what was normal then.
But, this word, “hypotasso,” was used throughout the NT and it’s meaning is clear throughout and the meaning should be clear in relation to wives, as well. These instructions do not nullify the, “one another,” verses; they are applicable, as well. But, let’s be clear, they are not mutually exclusive. Wives, according to these should subject themselves to their husbands, AND there are instructions to mutually submit. It’s not either, or.
The reality is, whether we like it or not, ( I know Lucifer did not like it), some are above and some are below. We all are under Jesus. Jesus is under the Father. Kids are under their parents. Employees are under their employers. Slaves are under their masters. Wives are under their husbands. Youth are under the old. And the overseen are under those who oversee. I’m not saying in all things at all times, but, in their proper places at the right times. And experience has shown that it does not go well when people do not understand where they should be in subjection or they just reject proper subjection. (Let’s be clear, I’m not talking about lord it over situations or abusive situations).
Finally, the last paragraph of my last post was me writing out of frustration. It was tongue in cheek, but nonetheless, I’m sorry. Honestly, I have been challenged to consider your points of view and others who posted, so I’m truly grateful to you and others for the challenging debate. I hope it will allow me to be more of a solution than a problem concerning this issue. I’m comforted to know there are thinking and studying believers out there, because they seem to be in the minority around here.
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“I think you’re right about “authenteo,” but I think you’re wrongly dismissing other words like, “hypotasso,” used in Col. 3:18 which means to arrange under, to subordinate, put in subjection, obey, submit to one’s control. I don’t think you could argue proof texting, effectively, because the passage is just a general list of instructions that don’t seem to be dealing with anything particular, except godly behavior”
Do you think it strange that Paul was telling women in the 1st Century, that according to the Household codes at the time, were considered the property of their husbands to submit? Why would he need to do that since they are already required to obey them by law?
Even the Jewish men had been practicing ‘any cause’ divorce which Jesus responded to a trick question about from the Pharisees.
So why would a piece of property need to submit to the one that alrady owned her? The answer is in the definition of hypotasso. It is a voluntary action. What Paul was counseling was a step up for believing women in the 1st Century. And don’t forget that Eph 5:21 applies to you, too.
“The reality is, whether we like it or not, ( I know Lucifer did not like it), some are above and some are below. We all are under Jesus. Jesus is under the Father”
This makes no sense. If ADULT believers are “under” another human layer between them and Jesus, then they really are not under Jesus as their direct authority. They have a human layer and the temple veil was not torn in two for them. This would mean someone is acting as their Holy Spirit. This would mean another depraved sinner saved by the same grace has some sort of special anointing other believers cannot have. I do not believe that for a moment. Submission is a beautiful thing. Do not turn it submitting to human authority in the Body. that is not what is being taught.Head/Body metaphors are all through the NT. It is a metaphor of love and unity.
Would you tell a woman who was being abused by her pastor husband she should submit to that? If not, why not? Are you saying she has a choice? If she does, then it is not about authority.
“Jesus is under the Father”
Jesus Christ, outside the Incarnation, is not a lesser god. He IS God. The Triune God is in complete unity. Outside the 33 year Incarnation, there is no chain of command within the Trinity. If there is a chain of command, then who does the Holy Spirit report to? Jesus Christ or God? (In the NT, we have instances of Jesus saying He is sending the Holy Spirit to us and another where it is said that the Father is sending the Holy Spirit. Who is right since there is obviously a chain of command breakdown? They both are right because both are God)
That is the ESS Heresy. And it does nothing but lessen Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. Jesus Christ, the Lord of Hosts in the OT, was present at creation. Please do not blaspheme His Sovereignty by suggesting He is eternally subordinate to God. He IS God. So is the Holy Spirit. United power and United Will.
But men are teaching this to promote their preeminance over others
by trying to map their authority to the Trinity. It is very sad for them. Give it up, friend. It is a huge sin trap for you. Wanting authority over others in the Body is unseemly. We are lowly servants who are to care for souls. We are to put others above ourselves. Or as Paul described himself, an underrower…the lowest place on a ship.
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MIchael and Lydia
I have been learning so much in this debate between the two of you. I am awed at the level of knowledge exhibited by both of you. This is such a difficult subject and I have to admit that I am still as confused as ever which mens that I need to read a whole lot more.
I think there is something in all mankind that causes him to strive for a utopian structure in which all people do what is the right and good for one another. Communism was a lame attempt at such a place but, of course, it deteriorated into “all men are equal but some are equal to others.”
One day, in the new heavens and earth, we will be perfectly in submission one to another.Until then, its confusing but interesting.
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Lydia,
“It is a voluntary action. What Paul was counseling was a step up for believing women in the 1st Century.”
Valid point about stepping up and voluntary action, making it a heart issue. I don’t see where Paul reversed his instruction and it somehow lapsed. The instructions are still applicable; that wives are to subject themselves to their husbands.
“And don’t forget that Eph 5:21 applies to you, too.”
I haven’t forgotten,; it was contained in my last post, when I wrote, “These instructions do not nullify the, “one another,” verses; they are applicable, as well. But, let’s be clear, they are not mutually exclusive. Wives, according to these should subject themselves to their husbands, AND there are instructions to mutually submit. It’s not either, or.”
So, Paul gives the general instruction in Ephesians 5:21, then lays out more specifically how to do that in Ephesains 5:22-5:33.
“This makes no sense. If ADULT believers are “under” another human layer between them and Jesus, then they really are not under Jesus as their direct authority. ”
That’s not what I’m saying AT ALL. I never said a believer was not under Jesus’ direct authority. I’ve acknowledged multiple times the priesthood of the believer. We are all equal in relation to God, but in our relations with each other, we are called to subject ourselves. Again, the fact that I have authority over my children doesn’t nullify their equality before God or their priesthood as believers. I’m not their mediator. And that authority over my children is a service position, not a lording over one. I’ve written this multiple times.
“Would you tell a woman who was being abused by her pastor husband she should submit to that? If not, why not? Are you saying she has a choice? If she does, then it is not about authority.”
Great question. Did you see where I wrote in my last post, “(Let’s be clear, I’m not talking about lord it over situations or abusive situations).”? You mentioned that a woman used to be considered property. She was in a tougher position then, because a husband might abuse her and she had no way to escape. In that sense of authority, the guy had it and the woman was forced to be under it, since she had no choice. That is NOT the authority that a pastor or a husband has.
I have written several times that a person’s authority reaches to the boundaries of his responsibility. The husband is responsible to love his wife and lay down his life for her. He does NOT have the responsibility of abusing her. I Peter 3:7 says to live with your wives in an understanding way …and honor her as a fellow heir…so your prayers will not be hindered. Well, if a husband doesn’t do this and his prayers are hindered, but the wife’s prayers are not hindered, then it seems obvious that he’s in an inferior position with God relative to his wife. Bottom line, she is not compelled to stay in that situation.
I think what you’re driving at is, yes, the woman has a choice, which means she has authority over herself. I agree with that. Paul, also recognizing the same personal authority given by God to women, therefore said, “Subject yourselves to your husbands.” In other words, you have the authority to choose, so choose to subject yourself to your husband. The man, having the same authority to choose, is also given the instruction, ” love your wife and lay down your life for her.” So, he may use his authority to choose to lay his life down.
I really think we’re on the same page regarding that. And, likewise, there is no compulsion to subject oneself to an abusive pastor. He does not have the responsibility of abusing those under his care.
Regarding this side issue of Jesus under the Father, I think you’ve gone way too far to imply that I might blaspheme the sovereignty of Jesus. That’s a huge stretch, again, from adding a different meaning than one I conveyed and then arguing against the meaning that you added.
This topic, though, is not as cut and dry as you make it seem. It is a huge discussion that we could spend months on.
Finally, I agree with your statement that wanting authority over others in the Body is unseemly. We should all seek to serve.
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Dee,
Thank you for your kind words.
I think you pinned the tail on the donkey when you talked about humility in your more recent post. I think what we all object to is someone trying to lord over us and compel us to submit to them, because it IS so objectionable, in marriage and in our church relations.
When we have love sown into us by someone, though, and we know they are laying down their life for us, we are much more willing to serve them, voluntarily, as well. Isn’t that closer to what God intended; pure love from willing hearts?
I’m hopeful that Lydia and I will agree upon some of these things by understanding one another more.
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“Valid point about stepping up and voluntary action, making it a heart issue. I don’t see where Paul reversed his instruction and it somehow lapsed. The instructions are still applicable; that wives are to subject themselves to their husbands.”
Michael, it cannot be voluntary and have someone…as in human demanding it. I once heard a wise pastor say he ignored the wife passages because they are too tempting. Think about it… How would forced fake love feel? Some one would know it right away that it was just doing duty…a works religion.
I never said teaching on submission lapsed so one does to an authority. There is NO submission to an authority in these verses between husband and wife. you have to read that into it and when you do, it NO LONGER IS VOLUNTARY BUT A WORKS RELIGION.
“So, Paul gives the general instruction in Ephesians 5:21, then lays out more specifically how to do that in Ephesains 5:22-5:33.”
It is actually a chiasm. The word “submit” is not in verse 22. It was added there by the translators. So, the submit in verse 21 is for everyone. We need to go back up to verse 18 to see what it is REALLY all about…being filled with the spirit. It is not being filled with the spirit to want authority over someone. This is not about submitting to authority. It is a love and unity metaphor. I think it is so sad how comps have turned into a works religion so that men will have preeminance. It is such a sin trap.
BTW: The ESS heresy is taking lots of folks down a heretical trail. And it is for selfish reasons…for their own preeminance. What other reason could they have to lessen Jesus Christ for all eternity?
But you used one of their main arguments for submission to authority so I felt compelled to point it out: Outside the Incarnation Jesus Christ is NOT eternally subordinate to the Father nor was in eternity past. Jesus Christ is God. It might be instructive to see how many times God is referred to as “Father” in the OT.
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Lydia,
“it cannot be voluntary and have someone…as in human demanding it.”
Again, you’re missing the point. No one is demanding it. Where are you coming up with that? If you’ll read my last post, in response to you saying, “It is a voluntary action,” I said, “Valid point about stepping up AND VOLUNTARY ACTION.
You don’t have to subject yourself to your husband if you don’t want to. It’s your choice. Don’t, for all I care. Neither do I have to love my wife. It’s voluntary. But I’d be stupid not to love my wife. It benefits me to love her and it benefits her that I love her. Can you not see that I agreed with you that subjecting is an exercise of the wife’s free will, her choice, her authority? How many ways do I have to say it?
“There is NO submission to an authority in these verses between husband and wife.”
There you go again, changing the words, thus changing the meaning, so you can argue with the addition you came up with. The word in the verses referenced is “subject,” not, “submit,” and the word, “authority,” is not mentioned.
“It is actually a chiasm. The word “submit” is not in verse 22. It was added there by the translators. So, the submit in verse 21 is for everyone. ”
Show me clearly the pattern, if you call it a chiasm. That’s speculative, in my opinion, and irrelevant.
You’re right, the word, “submit,” is not there in the Greek. But, it is a continuation of the thought presented in the preceding verse, meaning, “be subject to one another, wives to your own husbands,…husbands, love your wives.” So, I stick to my earlier comment, “Paul gives the general instruction, …then lays out more specifically how to do that…”
“It is not being filled with the spirit to want authority over someone. ”
Let me write, again, where I agreed with you in my last post. I wrote, ” I agree with your statement that wanting authority over others in the Body is unseemly. We should all seek to serve.” And, I agree with you that it is about being filled with the Holy Spirit. If we are filled with the Holy Spirit, we will submit, one to another, wives being subject to their husbands and husbands loving their wives, not under compulsion, but voluntarily.
I do agree with you that where there is a works-based religion, there is naturally hierarchy, resulting in condemnation. The gospel I know is a gospel of grace, equality before God, resulting in justification.
Finally, your judgment about people’s motives for believing in this eternal submission of Jesus to the Father is unfounded. There is no way you can make that claim, not knowing what is in their hearts. These people have valid arguments that they are wrestling with and many are just honestly seeking the truth. I believe, like you do, that Jesus is God. But, He’s not the Father. Jesus didn’t send Himself into the world, the Father did. There are plenty of valid points on both sides of this issue to discuss, but I’m not going into it here.
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“There is no way you can make that claim, not knowing what is in their hearts”
I do not need to know hearts. I am only looking at their own words. They, themselves, map the Trinity to hierarchical human relationships. Grudem, Bruce Ware, Russell Moore and many others are teaching this to thousands.
Jesus Christ is to be elevated.
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Anonymous,
There are many reasons why we started TWW, but I have to say that the ESS heresy is what really got me fired up! Let’s continue to refute these false teachings.
Blessings!
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“Show me clearly the pattern, if you call it a chiasm. That’s speculative, in my opinion, and irrelevant.”
It starts around verse 18 and is about being filled with the Spirit. It is not something you want to see. Just as you claim I have a ‘blind side’. I guess that just about sums it up.
many teach this submission as being obedient to God no matter what the husband does. This teaching puts women’s lives in jeporady and then abuse is heaped on when they are actually told they did not pray enough or submit enough or he would have changed. So, I suppose we blame Matt Baker’s wife for not submitting or praying enough or she would not have been murdered by him.
In the 1st Century women could not run down to the Ephesus women’s shelter.
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Anonymous, I assume you’re Lydia?
Again, you MISREAD what I wrote and then argued based on what your template says to you. I said, “your judgment about people’s MOTIVES for believing in this eternal submission of Jesus to the Father is unfounded.”
You can listen to their words and refute their theology. And you can listen to their words that tell you what their motivation is.
But, in the absence of them telling you what their motives are, you can’t know them. You don’t know my friend who is wrestling with these questions. To make an accusation like that, and it IS an accusation, (and I know where accusations come from, and they’re NOT from God), is just arrogant, wrong, and ungodly.
“They, themselves, map the Trinity to hierarchical human relationships.”
Hogwash. Maybe as few that you’re aware of do, but not most. Your statement is an overgeneralization, based on your template. In fact, my friend whose questions have lead him down that road of seeking doesn’t even believe in the trinity, so how in the heck is he mapping?
“Jesus Christ is to be elevated.”
Yes, He is, but He was careful not to elevate Himself, but to lower Himself. He elevated the Father. Don’t forget, He came, not to bring us to Himself, but to God the Father.
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Lydia,
Telling me where the chiasm starts is not giving me the pattern, as I asked you to do. You should be able to tell me where it starts and ends, how many points there are in the pattern, what they are, and show me the reverse of the pattern. Is it ABBA, or ABCCBA, etc? Can you do that?
“It is not something you want to see. Just as you claim I have a ‘blind side’.”
No, I do want to see it, that’s why I asked you to show it to me. And, if you show it to me, I will see it. Can you show it to me, or not?
“many teach this submission…”
Yeah, and many teach a biblical view. Are we going to swing the pendulum to the other extreme because immature believers have misinterpreted and misapplied the bible?
My heart goes out to those who have been in abusive situations. I’ve been in abusive situations at church, as well. It’s terribly hurtful, isolating, lonely, dark, and hopeless for many who have experienced it. We should be helping the abused, which is why I’m thankful for this blog. And, we should be correcting the abusers, husbands, wives, pastors, deacons, perverts, etc.
But, it’s not helpful to anyone to be in error the other way. I think this strong stance is an overreaction to unbiblical behavior. The wrong behavior should be confronted, resisted, and corrected, but it should not be corrected with more error in the other direction, as you’re attempting to do.
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Ephesians 5-6 Pericope Structure
Draft 1.1 by Don Johnson, November 1, 2008
The pericope is from Eph 5:15 to Eph 6:9. I use my own translation below to highlight some aspects.
There are multiple chiasms that contain phrases that are in an inverted parallel form. The chiasms allow one to pair up the appropriate phrases (A with A’, B with B’ and so on) as they are related in some way, I underline the related concepts in each line of the pairing. The most important part of a chiasm is in the middle, which is not often the way we do things today; we usually use either the newspaper form with the most important thing first or the math proof form with the most important thing, the conclusion, last. To assist in the discussion, I gave a unique letter number code to each phrase, so a specific phrase or set of phrases can be discussed easier. Brackets indicate words implied by the Greek text and inserted for clarity.
A1 Then watch carefully how you walk
B1 not as unwise
B1′ but as wise
A1′ redeeming the time, because the days are evil.
A2 For this reason,
B2 do not be foolish,
B2′ but understanding
A2′ what the will of the Lord is.
A3 And do not be drunk with wine,
B3 which is debauchery,
A4 but be filled by the Spirit,
B4 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,
C4 singing and praising in your heart to the Lord,
C4′ giving thanks always for all things in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
to God the Father,
B4′ submitting to one another in the fear of Messiah;
A4′ wives, [submitting to one another] to your own husbands as to the Lord.
A5 For a husband
B5 is head of his wife,
C5 as also Christ
D5 is Head of the church,
E5 and He is the Savior of the body.
D5′ But even as the church
C5′ submits to Christ,
B5′ so also wives
A5′ to their own husbands in everything.
A6 Husbands, agape-love your wives,
B6 even as Christ also agape-loved the assembly and gave Himself up on its behalf
C6 that he might sanctify it, cleansing it by the washing of the water in the Word,
D6 that He might present it to Himself as the glorious church,
C6′ not having spot or wrinkle, or any such things,
B6′ but that it be holy and without blemish.
A6′ So, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies.
A7 He who loves his wife loves himself,
(for no one hates his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it)
B7 even as also the Lord the church for we are members of His body,
A7′ “For this (reason), a man shall leave his father and mother,
and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall be one flesh.” (Gen. 2:24)
B7′ The mystery is great, but I speak of Christ and the church.
A8 Nevertheless, everyone in particular, let each one
B8 be loving his own wife as himself
B8′ and the wife
A8′ respect/fear her husband.
A9 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right.
B9 “Honor your father and mother,” (Ex. 20:12a, with Ex. 20:12b following )
C9 (which is the first commandment with a promise)
B9′ “that it may be well with you and you may be long-lived on the earth”.
A9′ And fathers/parents, do not provoke your children,
but nurture them in the discipline and admonition of the Lord.
A10 Slaves, obey your masters according to flesh,
B10 with fear and trembling,
C10 in singleness of your heart,
D10 as to Christ;
E10 not with eye-service as men-pleasers,
D10′ but as slaves of Christ
C10′ doing the will of God from the soul,
B10′ with good will
A10′ serving as slaves to the Master and not as to men.
A11 Each one knowing
B11 that whatever good thing he does,
C11 this he shall receive
D11 from the Master
E11 whether a slave or a freeman.
D11′ And masters,
C11′ do the same things toward them,
B11′ forbearing threatening,
A11′ knowing that the Master of you and them is in Heaven
and there is no partiality with Him.
Notes on each numbered section:
1. Herein lies wisdom.
2. Herein lies understanding the will of God.
3. Being filled with the Spirit can appear like drunkenness, but it is not that at all.
4. Here are 4 “-ing” verbs the inner 2 are to God, the outer 2 are to the church. It is important to notice that just as speaking to one another is mutually speaking (each one to others), so submitting to one another is mutually submitting (each one to others), contra Grudem (who correctly points out it might mean some to others, but not in this case). B4′ serves as the header principle that will be explained further with examples in the remainder of the pericope. In A4′ the verb is omitted and Paul carefully crafts the verb that is to be brought down in the previous phrase, it is reflexive (voluntary), it is to one another (mutually), it is in the middle voice (which does not exist in English but the idea is the action of the verb reflects back on the subject) and it is submitting. That is, the wife is to submit to her husband and the husband is to submit to his wife.
5. C5-C5′ is about Christ and the church, the body of Christ. Both (A) husband and wife and
(B) Christ and the church are unity examples using a head/body metaphor. Notice that all the examples of Christ as head in sections 5 and 6 are serving examples, a husband as head is on solid Biblical ground by using those examples in his relationship with his wife to serve her.
6. Again, a husband is to consider his wife as his own body and treat her accordingly, that is, with agape-love. Note that agape love per 1 Cor 13 “does not insist on its own way” contra the non-egal claims that the husband has final decision making power.
7. The metaphor of the wife being one flesh with her husband is continued.
8. This section is the summary and recapitulation of the spousal mutual submission theme in A4′.
9. In B9 and B9′ the common theme is that it is a quote from Exodus.
10. In A10, A10′, D11 and D11′ the common theme is kurios which I translate as Master (instead of Lord) when referring to Jesus and master when referring to humans to show this easier. Section 10 is about slaves, and contains the infamous proof text of slaveowners “Slaves, obey your masters.” so we know we need to be extra careful with this pericope.
11. This section is sometimes thought to refer to only slaves (that is, it contains a sometimes missed reference to freeman and slaves) but the structure shows what is going on. C11′ contains a symmetry reference “Do the same things” when referring to masters, such symmetry in the hierarchical relationship of masters and slaves is strikingly countercultural.
Acknowledgments
I wish to thank Bruce Fleming, Nils Lund, Kenneth Bailey, and David Instone-Brewer for their insights into this passage.
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Lydia,
Thanks for sharing this. It is interesting. I do see what he is talking about. I’m not sure how authoritative it is or common in terms of how intentional the author crafts this, or have we just come up with ways to code something. The lack of consistency of patterns throughout brings that into question.
But, relating to the verses we discussed, it sounds like he is in agreement with how I was reading it. Even though the verb is not there, it is pulled down from the preceding verse, as I said. Although he discusses the reflexive middle voice, he is referring to the verb in the preceding verse, which was brought down.
However, the meaning is still obvious to me that the following verse expounds on the preceding verse, meaning “wives to their husbands,” because, although we understand what the verb is saying in the reflexive middle voice, regarding mutual submission, (referring to the earlier verse), it does not continue by saying, “and husbands to wives,” as it should, if it were to mean that.
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“However, the meaning is still obvious to me that the following verse expounds on the preceding verse, meaning “wives to their husbands,” because, although we understand what the verb is saying in the reflexive middle voice, regarding mutual submission, (referring to the earlier verse), it does not continue by saying, “and husbands to wives,” as it should, if it were to mean that.”
Then I would need to assume that wives should not love their husbands because it does not say so explicitly.
Sorry, but you were covered in v21 if you are a believer. Remember, voluntary submitting was a step UP for the 1st Century wife whether Gentile or Jew.
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Lydia,
Let’s back up a minute. First, verse 21 isn’t talking to just husbands and wives. It’s talking to the whole body of believers in Ephesus. Then he narrows his instructions and talks to wives and husbands…Wives be subject to you husbands,… Husbands, love your wives.
“Then I would need to assume that wives should not love their husbands because it does not say so explicitly. ”
That’s exactly right, Lydia, since it doesn’t say so explicitly, HERE, then you are to assume that wives should not love their husbands. Since it does not say so explicitly, here, you may also assume that
wives should not brush their teeth
wives should not take out the garbage
wives should not give birth
wives should not talk on the telephone
wives should not read the newspaper while driving their cars with kids in the back seat.
That’s an invalid conclusion and faulty logic. When someone gives another instructions about what to do, his lack of explicit instructions regarding anything else, neither means that he shouldn’t nor should do something else. Nice try, but no cigar.
Sorry, the instructions for wives to be subject to their husbands still stands. It’s a shame that you fight so hard to reject God’s intended blessing. I, on the other hand, have enjoyed God’s blessings by willingly living with my wife in an understanding way, laying down my life for her, loving her, and yes, willingly being subject to her.
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“Sorry, the instructions for wives to be subject to their husbands still stands. It’s a shame that you fight so hard to reject God’s intended blessing.”
And husbands are to submit to their wives. YOu do not seem to get that part. those that teach it is submission to “authority” kill the blessing and make it a work of salvation. They are the ones who miss the blessing of vs 21/
The word in verse 21 is for all believers…that includes you. It does not exempt husbands and the further instructions to husband means that there is no way they can do that in a marriage except by submitting. But many have turned it into leadership/authority stance when it is not. That is not what the passage is referring to.
That teaching is a big sin trap for men
“That’s an invalid conclusion and faulty logic. When someone gives another instructions about what to do, his lack of explicit instructions regarding anything else, neither means that he shouldn’t nor should do something else. Nice try, but no cigar.”
You need to let CBMW know because that is what they teach. Husband as prophet, priest and king.
One of the hottest comp authors out there is Emerson Eggerich who teaches the “love and respect” model. a pink and blue model. And he is one of the softest comps out there and makes a ton of money.
The entire foundation of comp teaching is what you describe as faulty logic.
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http://www.fether.net/2010/07/27/an-example-of-cbmw-dogma/#comments
Michael, you might enjoy this analysis
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Lydia,
“And husbands are to submit to their wives. You do not seem to get that part.”
Uh, yeah, I have written that multiple times; the last sentence in my last post ended with, “and yes, willingly being subject to her.” Did you miss that one, too? See, I have agreed with you about that many times, but you can’t agree with me regarding wives being subject to their husbands, and if you give a slight nod of your head to it, it is followed by some qualifier. This seems like it’s a very personal issue to you that must hit pretty close to home. What’s the problem?
Let me just recount how many times, just on this thread, I have written about mutually submission, making your statement, “You do not seem to get that part,” ridiculous.
1. To Dee, Sat, Jul 17 12:45 am at 12:45 am – I think authority in that situation was leading with humility, preferring her over myself, and setting a right example of laying down my wrongly-perceived right to demand her compliance.
2. To Dee, Sat, Jul 17 12:45 am at 12:45 am – But with that power comes another responsibility; to love. And if one has the responsibility and authority to love, then he will choose ways where he and his wife are in agreement or wait until they are in agreement. He is not to lord over his wife.
3. In response to you Thu, Jul 22 09:32 am at 9:32 am – You wrote, “As far as authority in marriage, the only place I can find that clearly taught is in 1 Corin 7 and unfortunantly for comps, it is given to wives, too.” I responded, “I agree with your post positions….They also think of their leaders as superior, opening themselves up to abuse by empowering leaders who would lord over them. All believers need to rise up and recognize their intrinsic authority and value in Jesus Christ.
4. To Junkster, Wed, Jul 21 12:55 pm at 12:55 pm – I would say that in some ways wives have authority over husbands, like the verses referring to her authority over her husbands body, and his over hers. But I think we would agree that there is no blanket authority. We are given specific authority in relation to our duties, as you wrote.
5. To Junkster, Thu, Jul 22 09:57 am at 9:57 am – I also understand that we are to be mutually submitted one to another, as in the case where each has authority over each other’s body….So, I hope you can see that at our house the man and the woman have distinctive roles but are considered equal,…
6. To Me, Wed, Jul 21 01:15 pm at 01:15 pm – I think one thing we can ALL agree on is that there is to be no allowance for superiority or lording over in the Body of Christ.
7. To Lydia, Tue, Jul 27 10:42 am at 10:42 am – In response to you writing, “And don’t forget that Eph 5:21 applies to you, too,” I wrote, “I haven’t forgotten,; it was contained in my last post, when I wrote, “These instructions do not nullify the, “one another,” verses; they are applicable, as well. But, let’s be clear, they are not mutually exclusive. Wives, according to these should subject themselves to their husbands, AND there are instructions to mutually submit. It’s not either, or,”
8. To Lydia, Tue,Jul 27 10:42 at 10:42 am – In response to you writing, “It is a voluntary action. What Paul was counseling was a step up for believing women in the 1st Century,” I wrote, Valid point about stepping up and voluntary action, making it a heart issue.
9. To Lydia, Tue, Jul 27 10:22pm at 01:22 pm – No one is demanding it…You don’t have to subject yourself to your husband if you don’t want to. It’s your choice. Don’t, for all I care… Can you not see that I agreed with you that subjecting is an exercise of the wife’s free will, her choice, her authority? How many ways do I have to say it?
a. “those that teach it is submission to “authority” kill the blessing and make it a work of salvation. ”
b. “But many have turned it into leadership/authority stance when it is not.”
c. “You need to let CBMW know because that is what they teach. Husband as prophet, priest and king.”
I’m glad you continue to reference others’ teaching, because it confirms my belief that you’re not able to objectively process my valid points without running them through comp-resistant filters you’ve erected because of others’ erroneous teaching. Those are just not going to fly as valid arguments in this debate.
“The word in verse 21 is for all believers…that includes you. ”
Thank you for agreeing with my last post which stated, “Let’s back up a minute. First, verse 21 isn’t talking to just husbands and wives. It’s talking to the whole body of believers in Ephesus. Then he narrows his instructions and talks to wives and husbands…Wives be subject to you husbands,… Husbands, love your wives.
“It does not exempt husbands and the further instructions to husband means that there is no way they can do that in a marriage except by submitting. ”
Right, that’s what I just wrote in my previous post, but the author uses the word, “love,” not submit, when he writes to the husbands. Yes, he uses, “subject,” to everyone in verse 21, in a generic sense, but more specifically, “love,” to the husband, later.
“The entire foundation of comp teaching is what you describe as faulty logic.”
First, I’m not teaching comp, although you seem to be reading comp when you process my points through your filter.
Lastly, you seem to have as the foundation, of all the beliefs we’ve been discussing, regarding men and women, Galatians 3:28, which states, There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
You have alluded to or paraphrased a portion of this verse multiple times in your posts.
Talk about faulty logic. This is an example of taking one verse, grossly out of context, and applying it to something the author wasn’t even addressing. He was talking about salvation through faith vs. the law, and that the way of salvation is the same for everyone, Jews, Greek, free, slaves, men, and women. What he’s NOT addressing is authority or submission among men and women or among church overseers or the overseen.
You and all the other people in your camp, who use this verse to rest their arguments on, are way off base. And you dare to lecture others about proof texting. Take this misapplied scripture away and more than half your arguments fail. Sorry.
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“See, I have agreed with you about that many times, but you can’t agree with me regarding wives being subject to their husbands, and if you give a slight nod of your head to it, it is followed by some qualifier. This seems like it’s a very personal issue to you that must hit pretty close to home. What’s the problem?
Let me just recount how many times, just on this thread, I have written about mutually submission, making your statement, “You do not seem to get that part,” ridiculous.
1. To Dee, Sat, Jul 17 12:45 am at 12:45 am – I think authority in that situation was leading with humility, preferring her over myself, and setting a right example of laying down my wrongly-perceived right to demand her compliance.
”
You have answered your own question as to what is the problem. There is NO AUTHORITY in the situation.
All you have done is redefine what authority means. That is exactly what CBMW does when they are cornered. One does not “lead” with humility. There is no “servant leader”. I was around in mega marketing circles when that was coined. And it was coined for a specific reason. Long story.
One is either an example of humility or not. The wording in the whole pericope of scripture is “servant”. They don’t lead, they sacrifice.
“Forget trying to redefine authority as something more palitable and acceptable. It has been done to death.
Talk about faulty logic. This is an example of taking one verse, grossly out of context, and applying it to something the author wasn’t even addressing. He was talking about salvation through faith vs. the law, and that the way of salvation is the same for everyone, Jews, Greek, free, slaves, men, and women. What he’s NOT addressing is authority or submission among men and women or among church overseers or the overseen.”
I mentioned this passage a few times. The same teaching is in Romans. But anyway…it is not just about Salvation but inheritance. And that is significant. He does not limit women’s full inheritance of any gifts or functions. It is a FULL inheritance. If we did not inherit it all, that would be a good time to have told us.
Michael, you claim to agree with most of what I say, then what is the problem? I fully agree that wives are to submit to their husband. What I do not agree is that it is submission to an earthly authority. It is voluntary and it was a huge step up.
To really undestand this from the perspective of those reading the letter at the time, it is interesting to read the Roman Household codes and understand the Roman idea/law of Pater Familias.
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Thanks for conceding that wives are to submit to their husbands.
We’ll just have to disagree about earthly authority. I believe there is authority related to specific responsibilities, but not the kind you imagine that is compulsory or lording over. It’s serving, as you wrote. It’s voluntary, asking, not demanding, for voluntary co-laboring.
Regarding Romans, yes, it talks about salvation through faith there, as well, but I believe hanging your hat on those scriptures and Galatians as foundational truths to argue your points about men and women is misapplied. It’s out of context.
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Michael and Lydia,
I find this statement just placed on our blog under the “CEEJ” post interesting.
Beyond verifying what I saw when I visited one of the local SGM churches, I am interested in how this subject is addressed at SGM churches.
Comments?
acme says:
Wed, Jul 28 05:44 pm at 05:44 pm (Edit)
I went to CJ’s church from 1986-2007.
There were a few women who wore head-coverings. I remember when Wendy Virgo came to speak a long time ago — and she said it was up to our husbands whether we covered our heads or not.
My neighbor asked me just recently if I still attended CLC and said she had visited it recently. I told her I didn’t–and that I could not in good conscience recommend it to anyone, primarily because of the hyper-authoritarian control, extra-biblical requirements, and CBMW.
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“Regarding Romans, yes, it talks about salvation through faith there, as well, but I believe hanging your hat on those scriptures and Galatians as foundational truths to argue your points about men and women is misapplied. It’s out of context.”
Michael, I was referencing our full inheritance if we are saved. It is the same for male and female.
” It’s serving, as you wrote. It’s voluntary, asking, not demanding, for voluntary co-laboring.”
How is a servant an authority over others? You are not Jesus Christ. You are simply trying to redefine authority as many before you have done.
Earthly authority is civil government, parents to children, etc. Women are not perpetual children needing a daddy figure in marriage. And believers are not to remain immature but to eventually feast on meat. By having an earthly authority they are under such as with a title of elder or pastor, it could be someone like Ted Haggard. Now, wouldn’t you agree that one should have spiritual discernment about who they are listening to? Fruit is not just doctrine but mainly about behavior. And that comes from the indwelling Holy Spirit.
If we were to follow human authorities in the Body, then Paul would not have commended the Bereans for what they did.
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Dee,
I’ll get back with you on it. I Corinthians 11 is a can of worms.
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Lydia,
I know you were talking inheritance, which comes with salvation through faith. Still not a good foundational verse. It’s just the same basic concept as the Galatians verse. The point I made was, it’s out of context.
And even the Galatians verse recognizes that there is earthly authority. He contrasts slave and free, knowing there’s an authority structure. He contrasts men and women, knowing there’s an authority structure. And he contrasts that earthly authority structure with, we’re are on a level playing field with regard to salvation. Everyone has to come to the Father by faith in Jesus Christ. And, yes, we all have an inheritance, without regard to our earthly authority structures. Free and men do not have an advantage over slaves and women.
But, just the fact that he contrasts these is evidence that Paul recognizes that, on earth, there ARE authority structures. We may still be the Body of Christ, but we’re the Body of Christ, ON EARTH. There is authority in the heavens, as well.
“How is a servant an authority over others?”
If you had read my posts carefully, thoughtfully, you would understand that I have referred to specific authority regarding what your responsibility is; NOT authority OVER PEOPLE. If 7-11 stores hire a person to operate the cash register, he is a servant to the company who employs him. He also has authority to accomplish his work duties. Someone off the street can’t come into the store and demand that he give him the key to the cash register. The servant has authority, there, specific to his responsibility, and will control access to the register. The servant, being a man under authority of the employer, carries the same weight of his employer, and carries that level of authority in relation to others, while carrying out his duties.
“You are simply trying to redefine authority as many before you have done. ”
No, I’m not trying to redefine authority. You’re choosing not to recognize obvious authority that, even the immature intuitively know is there.
“Women are not perpetual children needing a daddy figure in marriage.”
Now, look who’s trying to redefine authority. You mention, “parents to children, etc.,” followed by the above statement. Who made age or maturity a criteria for what defines authority? The U.S. President doesn’t need someone younger or less mature than him, filling the office of the Vice President, to have authority over him. Authority relates to the responsibility, and women do not have the same responsibilities in marriage as men and visa versa. So they both carry authority related to their responsibilities.
In the church, those who just show up do not have the same responsibilities as an elder or pastor, so they don’t carry with them the same authority related to that church. They don’t get to call the pastor up and dictate to him what he has to preach on Sunday. The pastor doesn’t get to call that person up and tell them how to educate their children, since that is not his responsibility; it’s the parents’. (no need to respond with a tangent about the pastor being a keeper of the soul).
“Now, wouldn’t you agree that one should have spiritual discernment about who they are listening to?”
Yes, of course. The reality is, so many don’t because of their immaturity. But, as I wrote earlier, there is no way for us to be infallible in discerning all that someone does in their private life. There was no way for Ted Haggard’s congregation to know what he was into.
“If we were to follow human authorities in the Body, then Paul would not have commended the Bereans for what they did.”
First, who said anything about following human authorities?
Are you talking about Luke commending the Bereans for testing all that Paul was saying by searching the scriptures? Testing or questioning what someone has to say does not mean that he does not have authority. In my earlier example, if someone walks into the 7-11 and picks up an item that clearly has the wrong price on it, the fact that he can potentially have a conflict over that price with the cashier, does not mean the cashier doesn’t have authority.
Likewise, if the Bereans had a disagreement with Paul regarding the scriptures, that doesn’t mean Paul doesn’t have authority to carry out the mission God assigned to him.
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Dee,
Also, and I’m not trying to be mean, honestly, but I was reflecting back on my debate with Lydia and it occured to me to ask you to consider looking into and writing on hyper-ANTI-authoritarianism. If there’s one extreme, there’s bound to be the other extreme.