Keeping Secrets in the SBC

"Where secrecy or mystery begins, vice or roguery is not far off."

Samuel Johnson (1709-1784, British author)

 

Well, the 2010 SBC Annual Meeting is now history… 

 

The Great Commission Resurgence recommendations passed by a 3 to 1 margin.  To our utter shock, the records of the GCR Task Force have now been sealed for 15 years, despite an attempt to make them available to any interested Southern Baptist "in the spirit of openness and transparency".

 

Check out this excerpt from a Baptist Standard article entitled "SBC messengers defeat attempt to open task force records":

http://www.baptiststandard.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=11249&Itemid=53

In debate on his (Jay Adkins') motion, the only one scheduled by the SBC Committee on Order Business, Adkins said Southern Baptist would benefit from “seeing the process” of the task force. “What better way could we as a body come together?” he asked.

But task force members argued against the effort to open the records immediately, saying it would require them to break promises of confidentiality they made with Southern Baptists they consulted with in their deliberations.

“We promised them confidentiality during deliberations,” said Al Mohler, president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Ky., and a task force member. “This recommendation would require this task force to break its word.”

 

In case you're wondering who comprised the GCR Task Force, here's a link to the 23 members: http://www.pray4gcr.com/task-force/ 

 

Of course, all of us on the outside are asking the very same question…

 

What is is so TOP SECRET?

 

Well, since we won't know for FIFTEEN LONG YEARS, all we can do is speculate.  Here goes…

 

THEORY NUMBER ONE:

The GCR Task Force has finally come to grips with sagging numbers in the SBC.  According to one report by Lifeway Christian Resources: http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5151/53/

"Membership in the Southern Baptist Convention declined for the third consecutive year in 2009, according to statistics reported May 14 by LifeWay Christian Resources.

Southern Baptist churches reported total membership of 16,160,088 in 2009. That is 68,350 fewer than in 2008, a decline of 0.42 percent. The SBC lost 38,000 members between 2007 and 2008. In 2006 total membership was 16,306,246."    

Could it be that the BIG SECRET is that the Southern Baptist Convention membership is (GASP!) only half its reported size, say 8 million?

 

THEORY NUMBER TWO:

Could it be that the GCR Task Force has discovered under sworn secrecy that "certain" Baptist State Convention employees are indeed making GINORMOUS SALARIES! 

 

THEORY NUMBER THREE:

Could it be that the GCR Task Force does not want Southern Baptists to know just how little certain Southern Baptist megachurches actually give to missions?

 

We will share some additional theories tomorrow, and we welcome your theories as well.

Comments

Keeping Secrets in the SBC — 70 Comments


  1. Notice: Undefined variable: button in /home/guswo2wr8yyv/public_html/tww2/wp-content/plugins/quote-comments/quote-comments.php on line 127

    Dee, I would love to chat with you via email. Couldn’t find it posted on your blog. Would you mind posting it?


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    Just fill in the email address link when posting a comment and Dee and Deb will get it.


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    I was at the convention and after hearing all of the debates and voted to seal the records. I had been in favor of unsealing them until I heard the explanations given and the floor debate. One thing that also persuaded me was that a guy who attended the convention with me introduced me to one of his friends and we all hung out together during the convention. He worked for a Director of Missions in another state. He was for the GCTF. His Director, boss, was not.

    I don’t know who all appeared before the task force when they met. But if it was someone like this, then I can see that he may very well have put his job on the line by sharing with the task force.

    One messenger suggested revealing the minutes to a select group with some attorneys who could then type up all of the transcripts and black out what they felt was confidential.

    I did not find that persuasive because the person’s identity and what they said would still be revealed, just to a small group, and that is not keeping things confidential, as the committee had promised.

    I also found that spending all that time and money to make a complete record, to have it combed over by attorneys and the small group (and the task force committee, presumably), seemed like an awful amount of effort and energy and probably expense. And for what – to get a peak at the internal processes of a committeee that produced an open report that was subject to debate etc.

    Also, I did not know that the committee was not required to keep a record or notes anyway.

    So, I felt like the energy in the sbc would be better spent by looking at the report, debating it, and then letting the individual entities decide how to implement it.

    In the future, I think that this issue could be addressed on the front end.

    If I were ever on a committee like this, I would not keep a permanent record. Once the report was finalized, I would destroy all notes, records etc. Because what the convention has to deal with now is the report. The convention could not even do anything about what is in the committee’s report etc., except to change its mind about the report. And if it wants to do that, the text of the report should provide the logic for that.

    Oh, and I have one other thing to say.


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    I did hear one story about the meetings of the task force from someone who was on it.

    He said that there was some division about how to treat cooperative program giving versus other giving.

    One person (don’t know whom) who had initially been against promoting anything but cooperative program giving eventually had a change of heart and said something along these lines:

    “I think that the better course to follow may be to stop lecturing churches about how much they should give to the cooperative program and start celebrating and thanking churches, whatever their level of participation.”

    That sentiment is clearly expressed in the report. I think it is a welcome sentiment for many in sbc life. I know that the younger crowd at the convention feels that way at least.

    I also believe it is a healthy way for denominational employees to view churches and the money they give.


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    Anonymous

    Sorry, I had appointments most of the day. You can reach me :
    dee@thewartburgwatch.com.


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    Sorry for the delay, Anonymous.

    Dee and I met for lunch to celebrate passing the 100,000 milestone here at TWW. When did we start the counter, Dee? I can’t remember… Also, what does the number mean?


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    Anonymous

    Thank you for your comments. I view this somewhat differently. I would never destroy any records. Some who appear before a group may have very differing viewpoints and their suggestions may have been discounted.

    The SBC has been dominated by hyper-authoritarian men who have had far too much power to push their agenda. This ridiculous secretiveness has resulted in foolish decisions that have led to the decline of the SBC. You do know that the SBC is hemorrhaging members, don’t you?

    Maybe the leadership has done nothing to inspire trust. In fact, most people in this country view the SBC with a jaundiced eye and rightfully so. Secretiveness is usually just a bunch of good old boys with a token woman or so who has been thoroughly vetted as to her agreement with the status quo.

    I am one who left in the past year. Perhaps it might be wise to find out why folks like me have turned our backs on the SBC. It has nothing to do with conservative theological interpretation.

    So, here is a clue. Secret meetings raise suspicion and the SBC is doing a durn fine job of fulfilling Michael Spencer’s (recent departed Internet Monk) prediction that evangelicalism is in danger of becoming extinct in the next decade. Look at Europe. Oh, there might be an SBC but it will be a religionist organization with nice rules that gives an occasional tip of the hat to that nice guy, Jesus.

    Real Christians will have fled and will hang out in small faithful groups and the megas will become a place to get a good cup of coffee for free.


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    Dee:

    I understand your perspective and agree that people can differ on this issue.

    I am very strong on disclosure (e.g. I believe that all executive salaries should be available etc.), but since there is a report here that is the focus of attention and action, I am not worrying about every statement, discussion or thought that may or may not have ended up in the report.

    I understand your decision to stop attending the church that you were a member of, and I can’t blame you.

    I also understand that all denominations, including the sbc, are losing members. They all lose them for different reasons.

    I also understand the warts that the sbc (and every church or religious denomination) has.

    I agree that the sbc is going to be smaller in the future.

    On the plus side, I have found a lot of neat people in the sbc. I will stay in it (actually, I am sure you kow, that neither of US is or was a member of the sbc. No individuals are. Only churches are).

    I just did not get that bothered about the disclosure issue once it has hearing in public. Most of the messengers did not either.


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    Anonymous

    I am grateful for your kind disagreement. As Christians work together in their disagreements, I think the Holy Spirit blesses us. If course there are wonderful SBC churches with Christ followers. And I am glad you have a chosen to stay. Your church is blessed.


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    Deb
    Thanks for lunch. I think we started the counter around 10 weeks ago.

    Some would say that the numbers are insignificant. But, as you know, TWW had a sudden uptick in the new year.

    BTW, one such “insignificant” commenters is just frustrated that people are actually agreeing with us.

    God has blessed me with a wonderful friend and fellow co-conspirator. I’ll be out later checking for the black helicopters over SEBTS.


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    Dee,

    Have you ever noticed the resemblance between Jack of 24 fame and Danny Akin? I meant that as a compliment.


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    Anonymous,

    I have thoroughly enjoyed reading your commentary, and I am trying to look at this situation through your eyes since you were at the Annual Meeting.

    While those at the SBC convention may not have been bothered by the decision to seal the GCRTF records for 15 years and while a record number of messengers attended the convention, I believe it’s important to remember that there are supposedly 16.6 million members of the Southern Baptist Convention. I wonder how those who were not there will view the secrecy.

    Thanks for the open dialogue, and I hope you will continue to comment.


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    Hmmmm…I can see it all now. “You have 10 seconds to tell me why you named a building after Patterson or I’ll chop off your finger.”


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    Thanks Dee and Deb for your kind words.

    Have a great weekend.


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    “I wonder how those who were not there will view the secrecy.”

    The truth is the vast majority don’t know and don’t care.


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    Amen, sister.


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    The GCRTF promised anonymity to persons who spoke. But they had no right to make such a promise. If they did, a motion not to seal the records would have been out of order.

    The reasons behind the decisions in the report, and the ultimate goals of the task force members, are at least as important as the actual content of the report. Intent is always more important than mere words.

    I would hope that SBC leaders have learned from this not to make promises to keep secrets, but I suspect that what they have learned instead is to make it known from the start that secrets will be kept, so no one will expect or ask to see any records.


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    Junkster:

    I respectively disagree with you, though let me hasten to say that you say lots of things in the blog world with which I agree.

    The task force was not required to keep minutes or records at all. It could have kept no records at any point, or it could have junked it all (no pun on your handle) when the report was put together.

    The convention did not require that the task force keep records of who spoke with them or what was said. With no instruction, the task force could tell people with whom it spoke that they would either keep records or not and whether they would release the records or not.

    I have seen and heard people say that the task force had no right to tell people they could say things to them that would be kept in confidence, but I can’t find a reference to anything that would support that.

    It seems that people who are saying that are merely saying that is their expectation of committees like this. But beyond that, I can’t really find any support for that.

    If I had written the task force or spoken to the task force or a member, it is not unreasonable for them to have told me that what I said or wrote was not going to be broadcast to the entire convention. That seems perfectly reasonable without some contrary charge from the convention.

    I, also, have tried to understand the thought about trying to divine the intent of the persons who spoke to the task force or the intent of one member in something he or she said or the intent of the entire task force.

    I am concerned that trying to divine intent of the task force or one or more of its members or those who spoke to it (beyond what the task force eventually recommended to the convention) is like chasing a chimera.

    If I were a member of the task force, I believe that I would say my intent and the only collective intent of the committee is expressed in our recommendations in the report.

    The institutions and agencies of the convention are now charged with deciding whether and how to adopt the task force recommendations. I believe that is the place where energies should be put.

    If the ideas are good, they should stand on their own, regardless of the intent of those behind the recommendations. If the ideas are bad, they should not be implemented, even if they are well intended.

    One person on the task force might have different intentions from others on the task force. And some speaking to or writing the task force might have different intentions from others.

    Diving the collective intent of a group like this (as opposed to the individual intent of some on the task force) is a tough task.

    But I do agree that in the future if a task force is appointed, the convention should tell them if minutes and records are to be kept and whether that information should be broadcast. In the absence of such an instruction, I believe it would be fair for the task force to do what it thought best.

    But at least the messengers got to speak to that, as well. So, the decision to seal the records was a decision of the convention, not the task force. At least this decision faced the judgment of the messengers.

    By the way, what do you think about the report? Do you like or dislike the recommendations? Were you at the convention to vote on the report?


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    Annonymous

    I wanted to add another perspective. The SBC has made some dastardly mistakes in the past. Committee members have behaved in horrible ways as outlined in Wade Burleson’s book “Hardball Religion”. The SBC leadership nor this current committee have done anything that would make me believe that this GCR stuff will be any different from the past.

    If there was concern about past mistakes, surely the committee would have gone out of its way to make this an open and transparent process. It did not which leads me to one of two conclusions. They are stupid which means that they did not learn from the past. I don’t think they are. This leads me to the second conclusion. There is more to this than meets the eye. Names can be bleeped. Confidences can be held within the release of records by blacking out identifiers.

    As for the fact that they were not required to keep records, I refer you to the above paragraph.They have not learned from the past which means they are poor leaders. Or they have learned from the past and they are playing this one close to the vest.

    The once great and declining SBC is unfortunately behaving in the very manner that cause such anguish over the previous decades. I am one who couldn’t take it anymore. The SBC acts more like BP than a gathering of the saints.

    Finally, as for the convention vote, do you really think that the folks present represent the general Joe in the church? My guess is that they do not and that the general Joe will leave with so many others if the SBC doesn’t clean up its act.


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    Dee:

    I understand your concerns and why you believe the task force should have planned to keep it’s minutes and communications open.

    In this case, I actually believe that the messengers were representative of the sbc as a whole. There was not uniformity on the task force report. The only thing controversial in the report was changing the funding recognition from CP only to “Great Commission Giving.”

    Do you have any thoughts, pro or con, about the substance of the report?


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    “Do you have any thoughts, pro or con, about the substance of the report”

    Why would long time believers need a Great Commission Resurgance in the first place? Those who have Christ In them are not counting on report. They are in the trenches now. And they do not need the SBC for that, either.

    When you get down to the nitty gritty, it was about money.

    Where is the Holy Spirit in this? Christians are to be eternity minded. Which is why the secrecy is so silly. What is hidden will be made known. What is the point of waiting?

    The bottomline is that the SBC is irrevalent.


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    ” Were you at the convention to vote on the report?”

    Hopefully, you are not trying to imply that one cannot have an opinion on the report if they were not able to vote on it. And I certainly hope you are not implying in your comment that one cannot have an opinion on the process of the report since you keep focusing on the outcome. You may not realize it, but most folks were not surprised at the final recommedations. But they really were not recommendations. Since the SBC is celebrity focused, it had no chance of NOT passing.

    This is why the SBC is irrelavent. It is now cult of personality. I would not follow the leaders of the SBC out of a parking lot.

    My goal is to help the pew sitters follow Christ Alone. Not celebrities.


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    BTW Anonymous:

    Let us go through each member of the GCR task force and take a look at their church’s CP giving over the last 15 years since they are representative of church leadership and SBC leadership.

    As a matter of fact, it was brought out that even Hunt’s church gave ZERO to Annie Armstrong.


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    Annonymous
    I can’t speak to the substance of the report because I only have a superficial report. However, I shall respond with caveats.

    I believe in economies of scale and so the combining of efforts between the IMB and NAMB would appear to accomplish that.

    However, I am very concerned about the focus on “missions” in North America. Once again, America is the most evangelized country on the earth. I would have loved to have seen an emphasis on bringing the message to the 1/3 of the world who have rarely, if ever, seen a Bible.

    I also am concerned that this is not about “bringing people to Christ” but bringing people to “Baptists.” There appears to be a general naivete that there are no Christians worth mentioning in the Northern climes. However, there are Christians but they aren’t Baptists. I wish, for once, that the Baptists would join hands with other evangelical groups.

    Finally, the report is vague,leaving much room for interpretation both in the use of money as well as in the “direction” of the SBC.
    I think it was a purposely vague report and I am not impressed. On this I agree with Morris Chapman. This is not a report that will bring people to their knees.

    Do I make any sense to you?


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    That’s ok, anon, sometimes I don’t agree with myself.

    You make some very good points, and you do so in a thoughtful and non-argumentative way; I really appreciate that, and I commend you for it. You said:

    The convention did not require that the task force keep records of who spoke with them or what was said. With no instruction, the task force could tell people with whom it spoke that they would either keep records or not and whether they would release the records or not.

    I have seen and heard people say that the task force had no right to tell people they could say things to them that would be kept in confidence, but I can’t find a reference to anything that would support that.

    It seems that people who are saying that are merely saying that is their expectation of committees like this. But beyond that, I can’t really find any support for that.

    If I had written the task force or spoken to the task force or a member, it is not unreasonable for them to have told me that what I said or wrote was not going to be broadcast to the entire convention. That seems perfectly reasonable without some contrary charge from the convention.

    I suppose it is really a matter of my expectation, or at least my preference. I personally would have preferred that, as a Christian organization, the meetings or records had been open, especially since, as I understand it, public statements were made at the front end that indicated the meetings would be open to a rep from the Baptist Press. But, as you said, the convention did not make such openness a requirement from the start, so I can see that the task force could have considered it within their purview to make decisions about what they would do in that regard. Perhaps they asked the Exec Committee just to be sure, or perhaps they went with the common maxim that it is easier to get forgiveness than permission.

    Interestingly, I’m on vacation this week, and I just spent a good part of the day in Constitution Hall in Philadelphia. One of the things I was reminded of was that, when the framers of the US Constitution met and worked out a government to replace the Continental Congress, their meetings and discussions were open only to the delegates. Many assumed they were working on revisions to the Articles of Confederation, and were surprised to learn that instead they had come up with an entirely new system of federal government. Had that information been known from the start, or had it come out before the delegates were finished with their deliberations, it might have been much harder for them to have come to agreement or to have received the support of the states afterward. People might also have focused on the process and the persons involved rather than the content of the end product.

    Thus, I recognize that there can be benefits to maintaining confidentiality or anonymity when dealing with sensitive issues, especially when seeking change within a conservative institution, and even more especially when that change includes how money is spent and budgets are prioritized and categorized. So I am not surprised at the decision of the GCRTF (and the majority of the convention’s messengers) to seal the records.

    I do think, though, that they could have found ways to maintain a degree of anonymity and confidentiality for the persons involved, if that was the primary concern, without sealing the content of the discussions entirely. (For example, they could have produced transcripts of the proceedings with substitutions of Mr A and Mr B, etc. for the names, or some other form of redaction). Just as a matter of Christian principle, I’d rather see more openness, transparency, and humility in Christian circles that one would expect from the rest of the world.

    I am concerned that trying to divine intent of the task force or one or more of its members or those who spoke to it (beyond what the task force eventually recommended to the convention) is like chasing a chimera.

    It is my opinion that the primary reason for sealing the records was not so much with who said things, but rather with what was said. Of course, I recognize that my opinion comes from speculation, but my speculation seems to me both logical and consistent with attitudes commonly demonstrated concerning the roles, function, rights and privileges of leadership within the SBC and within SB churches.

    By the way, what do you think about the report? Do you like or dislike the recommendations? Were you at the convention to vote on the report?

    I don’t have major concerns about the content of the report. I can see where smaller state conventions could be concerned with changing the financing funding formulas, but the changes in that regard seem like a reasonable attempt to reform a complex and unwieldy system. The recommended changes in NAMB and IMB seem to me to move toward a more centralized approach for domestic missions, which concerns me somewhat in terms of granting more power to the national convention within the US (and, by extension, those who run it) — but that appears to have been the trend in the SBC for the last 30 years or so, so it’s really nothing much new. The changes also make me wonder if the ultimate plan is to combine those two agencies — which might not be a bad thing, but, if that is part of the plan, I’d rather they were up fron about it. (It could be, though, that the current plan was a compromise between those who wanted to combine them and those who didn’t. Guess we’ll have to wait 15 years to see if that’s the case.) I felt the concerns raised over the Great Commission Giving category were largely unfounded, but I can understand the concerns of those who worry about it weakening the Cooperative Program. (I’m not convinced that it does weaken the CP, but even if it does, I don’t think that would undermine the basis of the Convention system, as some opponents claimed, given that the Convention predates the CP by 80 years.)

    I was not present at the convention. Due to my involvement in many Baptist churches over the years, I like to keep up with trends in the SBC, but the last couple of churches I’ve participated in haven’t been Baptist. So I know I have no say in these matters. But part of me still feels very connected to the SBC, so I still form opinions based on what I see and hear. I probably pay more attention to SBC national politics, etc. than the average member of an SB church. I’m not so sure that’s a good thing — I could probably find better things in the kingdom of God to be focused on.

    Be blessed, O Anonymous One!


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    I, too, would like to see more cooperation of Southern Baptists with other evangelical groups — both inside and outside the US. But the trend of the Baptist Identity folks (who represent a strong voice in SBC politics and leadership at present) seems to be toward less cooperation with other Baptists with whom they disagree, so it seems unlikely to me they would chose to cooperate more with non-Baptists.


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    Junkster,

    Curious to know what this type of evangelical cooperation would look like? The SBC is obviously not going to be rejoining the BWA anytime soon and affiliation with NCC is (and has always been) out of the question. I don’t think the SBC has any interest in the historically more centrist-leaning NAE and I doubt that the NAE would have any interest in the SBC.

    I think the younger Reformed crowd would tell you that they are already cooperating with non-SBC evangelicals. ACTS 29 and Together 4 the Gospel comes to mind. Dwight McKissic helped found a network of cooperating evangelical churches a couple of years ago. I’m sure there are many examples at the local level of Southern Baptists of cooperation with evangelical groups – more networks, etc.

    On social issues, there is certainly a sense of organizational cooperation between the ERLC, Focus and FRC.

    I’m just wondering what this cooperation would look like?


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    Lydia,

    After reading your comments, I’m sometimes confused as to how I should understand them? It’s hard to tell whether you’re trying to make a serious argument or just venting out of frustration. For example, to say the SBC is irrelevant is just too over-the-top to be taken seriously. The SBC is still the largest Protestant denomination in the United States with a budget of over 200 million. That’s 150 million for missions ministries and another 50 million for theological education. That’s not chump change. In the world of denominations and other religious organizations, the SBC is hardly irrelevant.

    There are many criticisms and critiques that can legitimately be leveled against the SBC. Irrelevant is not one though…


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    Junkster

    Awesome comment on the history of the Constitution. It adds much depth to this discussion. Do you think the GCR crowd have the same sort of character that was found amongst the Founding Fathers? Funny thing about that document-it was written by men who disagreed on the faith but saw past their differences “in order to found a more perfect union.” I so wish the Baptists could see beyond themselves.


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    The Baptist identity movement is the clearest example I can find that the Baptists are no different than the Roman Catholics. It is also a black mark on the propensity of man to think that he knows fully the mind of God and that God fully agrees with these particular Baptists. I do not think the Almighty is pleased with this nonsense.What will some of these Identity folks do when they find out that their are some Episcopalians in heaven? Worse,yet, some Catholics?!


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    Cliff,
    I’m not entirely sure what would and wouldn’t work. The examples you gave are good, and individual churches, particularly the large ones, do support missions and ministries not necessarily associated with the SBC. One thing that comes to mind in the international realm is Wycliffe. And on the domestic front, I’d like to see SB churches, associations, and conventions partner with “baptistic” or evangelical congregations, fellowships and denominations that have a strong presence in parts of the US where there are few SB churches. I’ve always found it somewhat arrogant when I hear SB leaders talk certain parts of the country as if they had no Christians at all simply because they have no SB churches there, although they may have a significant number of conservative, Bible-believing, and missions-minded Christians and churches of other denominations.


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    Cliff

    I am not a big believer in more committees and task forces. T4G is really a cooperative of authoritarian reformed types who have a bigger agenda than just the Gospel, contrary to their name. However, I will turn off my snarky for a moment.

    Here is how it could work. The SBC targets in area, let’s say in Boston, to begin a church plant. They then get together with some of the larger, evangelical churches in the area and talk about common goals, etc. There is a group like that in my area. They aren’t sitting around figuring out how to get people to believe the five points of Calvin (whoops-there I go again). Instead, they look together at holes and figure out how to fill them. So, instead of having one more church send a bus for students at MIT, the new church sends a bus to an elderly complex, etc.


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    Cliff,

    There are some who would agree with Lydia. I highly recommend the new book by the recently departed Internet Monk, Michael Spencer, called “Mere Churchianity.” The SBC is losing members hand over fist. The current “official” numbers are probably highly optimistic. If this trend continues, the SBC will be a shadow (if that) of itself in the next couple of decades. Add the nonsense of Young Earth Creationism, ESS, increasing reports on sexual abuse, Patriarchal theology coming out of Southern, and so on and the SBC is headed for trouble.

    30 years ago, I was a member of Park Street Church (Congregational) in Boston. It was giving over a million dollars a year to foreign mission alone. This is a church that, albeit large for Boston, was hardly a “mega.” With FBC Dallas raising 120 million for a “sanctuary” (a self serving, self glorifying building if there ever was one) and the 150 million for foreign missions is not that impressive.

    I have to say, Cliff, that I have to agree more with Lydia.


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    Lydia

    Have you seen the person posting on the foreign missions giving out of JD Greear’s church, The Summit. This person is posting that his church only gives 1.5% of its budget to missions. Do you know if this is true? Isn’t he on the IMB and the GCR?


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    In all my years as a Baptist, I never attended a Catholic church service. I was always too involved in my own church, and didn’t have any close friends who were Catholic. From what I always heard in Baptist churches, I had an idea in my head of Catholic churches being very lifeless and formal and ritualistic and lacking in biblical teaching and preaching. Yesterday I attended a Catholic church service for the first time. There were some distinct differences from Baptist churches, especially in terms of what is and isn’t included. But two things really struck me — one was how much was similar to a typical Baptist church, particularly a traditional (non-contemporary worship) Baptist church — the layout of the buildings, the order of worship, the songs, the Bible passages, even the sermon. The other was that there was more talk of the gospel — the substitutionary sacrifice of Christ for out sins, and of salvation than I have heard articulated well in many Baptist churches in several years. And the sermon was actually a more expositional approach to Scripture than anything I’ve heard in an evangelical church in quite a while (since so many Baptist and other evangelical churches are practicing more “topical” preaching series these days than verse by verse, book by book exposition.

    I know that, doctrinally speaking, many of the things I observed in the Catholic church service that appeared similar to Baptist churches would have a different underlying meaning in the Catholic church, most notably the Eucharist (communion) portion of the service. But I really didn’t expect the Catholic service to be so similar in form and words to a traditional Baptist church service. I think a lot of Baptists who have always been taught, as I have, how very wrong Catholicism is would be surprised at how much the they have in common at least externally.


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    Lydia
    You are correct. This was a done deal. It is so boring. Not even a chance of a surprise. Aren’t there any major rabble rousers who could shake things up a bit?


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    Dee,
    Unfortunately, I don’t think there are many men in our day, in churches or in politics, who match the character, wisdom, and understanding of the founders of our country.


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    Lydia

    These things are usually about the money and prestige. The SBC reminds me of the current oil spill. The oil is gushing and they are spending time looking at how to clean up the beaches instead of stopping the leak. They are refusing to look at the real reason for the hemorrhaging membership. If they were, the GCR would look very, very different.


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    Junkster

    Why?


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    Junkster

    I agree with you on the arrogance issue. The thing that many in the SBC don’t realize is that the South had many churches because it is part of the culture. It is socially acceptable to go to church and for many it is socially desirable to go to church. People build their businesses around their contacts at church. However, just because First Baptist is large, doesn’t mean that First Baptist is filled with Christians.

    Up north, it is socially undesirable to be a Christian. That means that those in church are there because they really believe (I am not including Roman Catholics in this assessment-just Protestants. This does not mean that there is a lack of Christian outreach in the area. In fact, evangelism in that area is alive and well.

    A few years after moving to Texas, I met with an elder and told him I felt like I was banging my head against a wall. Everyone claimed to be a Christian, especially Baptist. Yet, they didn’t act like Christians up north. Everyone “walked the aisle”, belonged to some Sunday School class with someone’s name on it “The Billy Bob Class” and yet so many of them looked at me like I had two heads on when I wanted to discuss the Scripture in depth.

    My elder said that it was the Southern “Christianity.” He said he used to believe that lots of people were Christians but, in the last few years, had decided that there were far fewer Christians than he thought.

    My current church is right in the midst of one of the more liberal universities in the country even though it is in the South. Atheism and agnosticism is rampant. Those who attend the church are different than their culture. So, I have found a little pocket of a Christian enclave in a secular culture. It almost feels like the camaraderie of Christians up north.


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    Cliff, you are talking numbers to me. Where is the Holy Spirit? How come such large numbers do not translate into a great move of the Holy Spirit in this country?

    I am well versed with numbers. That is a worldly position.


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    I do not know about that one, specifically. However, this has been a joke for years with the SBC mega churches and their CP giving. And most are the SBC leaders.

    I forget the actual amount but Mohler’s church gives very little every year to CP. This was a big complaint about Floyd when he ran for SBC Prez a while back. It is another example of the Pharisetical do as I say and not as I do.


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    Losing members hand over fist? That’s an interesting description. How would you then describe the bleeding of other Christian denominations? Losing .24 percent as the SBC did in 2009 is really a drop in the bucket compared to steady decreases of 1-3 percent that other major groups have been experiencing over many years now.

    The SBC has been involved in much nonsense for many decades. Being involved in nonsense has never made a dent in the organization. Why would it now? The SBC has gone through many controversies over the past 100 years. Yet, Southern Baptists continue to financially support and affiliate with the Convention.

    Lydia wants to dismiss numbers. But those numbers represent the tithes and offerings of actual, real live Southern Baptists. The SBC might currently be going through a correction of sorts. This is a post-denomiantional age. There are other factors at play. Yet, Southern Baptists continue support the SBC with their $$.

    Clearly more than a few people do not think that SBC is irrelevant.

    Lydia asks where is Holy Spirit. How would she know that the Holy Spirit is not moving in those Southern Baptist churches that comprise the SBC? Lydia discounts numbers as a “worldly position” but then seems to suggest numbers are needed to prove the Holy Spirit is actually moving among Southern Baptists? Odd.


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    “Lydia discounts numbers as a “worldly position” but then seems to suggest numbers are needed to prove the Holy Spirit is actually moving among Southern Baptists? Odd.”

    Cliff, I never once said this. You are putting words in my mouth.

    Hudson Taylor, in 10 years, had ONE convert. How can that be? Because he tested the fruit.

    I believe if the full Gospel were known and understood and the focus on that instead of programs, buildings, entertainment, etc, our churches would empty except for a few.

    Giving is not a good indicator for many reasons, I will not bore you with. (I know several mega church pastors who brag that they can raise a million with one small campaign. But they save it for the big stuff)


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    Junkster: Thanks for the nice follow up.

    Dee and Deb and all – great comments.

    I don’t think that a person had to be present and voting to voice and opinion about the GCR. I had just noted that most of the talk had been about the procedure of the task force and not its actual report.

    I have looked over the task force membership. I don’t identify many, if any, Baptist identity people on there. Most of the BI people I know were not in favor of this report.

    I believe that the report is significant in that it was designed to try and look at ways that the SBC could more effecitvely accomplish the Great Commission. The SBC is just a pot of money, really. So, I never expected the report to contain some novel or moving spiritual insights.

    I don’t believe that the report would have passed intact had not the cp language been changed in point 3. I believe that what I will call the cp forces, who wanted no change to the cp structure or emphasis, brought more votes to the convention.

    In case you missed it, there was an interesting parliamentary moment when a messenger moved to amend point 3 to take out Great Commission Giving and just reassert CP giving. That motion carried, in my opinion, but it was close. But the task force committee and the messenger got together and proposed sort of a joint motion to add what the messenger wanted and keep the Great Commission giving language in the report. Had the messenger not agreed to do that, I believe that point 3 and Great Commission Giving would have died.

    I saw the messenger later and thanked him for his statesman like demeanor and action. Again, I think that he could have refused. Had he done so, I think that point 3 would not have passed with any Great Commission Giving language in it.

    That was, in my opinion, the only thing controversial in this report.

    On cooperating with other ecumenical bodies, I believe that the churches of the SBC can and will continue to do that. I am concerned about the dollars given to the SBC being used to do that. The SBC has been burned twice in a big way over that kind of thing. The SBC funded the Baptist Joint Committee (about 80% if memory serves me correctly), and the SBC provided most of the funds for the BWA. But the SBC had only a fraction of the representation on those bodies.

    I think that type of an arrangement is a recipe for conflict.

    Our church is very ecumenical with respect to other evangelicals. I think the SBC can be, too, so long as the SBC doesn’t get in position where it is essential funding another organization, with a disproportionate amount of representation.

    I heard one person after the convention say that the adoption of the report doesn’t necessarily mean anything because it has yet to be worked out in meaningful way. But if the convention had failed to adopt the report, that would have been a huge signal.


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    Greear’s church gives 1.5% of its budget to the Cooperative Program. There are, of course, other ways that Southern Baptists support missions than through the Cooperative Program. The Summit has an aggressive church planting ministry. I’m also pretty sure that Greear’s church has given a significant amount directly to the International Mission Board (not through CP).


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    OK, you have no use for numbers here, that’s fine.

    However, how can you make the assertion that the Holy Spirit is not moving in the Southern Baptist Convention? How would you know? You don’t. You couldn’t.


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    Cliff

    What od you think about the mega salaries that some in the SBC are paid? Robert White of Georgia, according to the released budget makes @$530,000/yr. What do you think about spending $120 million on FBC Dallas?

    I am interested in your answer because your answer will help me speak to you about my concerns for the SBC.


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    Anonymous

    Good answer. I am totally opposed to new funding for “ecumenical” committees. In fact, I am, for the most part, opposed to committees, believing that they are, for the most part, an instrument of Satan! Lewis claimed that hell would be a big bureaucracy, with things filled out in triplicate, and endless meetings.

    I am talking about pastors meeting other pastors in the town they are moving into. Why not meet over lobster rolls at the local fish mart and talk about how to combine efforts and not duplicate? This is moving the effort down to the lowest level, the local community. No big boys needed, just the Holy Spirit.


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    The Holy Spirit might be moving in the lives of various members who happen to attend an SBC church. And yes, I can know. I was behind the curtain for many years. It is amazing how different things are back there. And without the internet, folks would simply go on being deceived and think what they see on stage or read in a book is reality.

    I also do not think we need to deal with the leaders. We must encourage the pew sitters to study and read the Word on their own. Only then will they truly understand what the ekklesia really is.


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    Of course we should encourage people in the pews to read and study the Bible as individuals. We also should encourage believers to read and study the Bible in the context of their local church community. We are, after all, individuals-in-community.


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    I would say that Bob’s salary is extravagant. And I know Bob White, by the way. I have absolutely no respect for the man. At 530K, Bob is making much much much more than even the Presidents of the educational institutions affiliated with the GBC. The heads of religious organizations shouldn’t be making secular CEO-type money. On the other hand, I’m not one of these people who insist that executives make 50K or something.

    Again, FBC Dallas’ 120 million building plan is lavish, extravagant, etc. etc. Frankly, I don’t think they’ll be able to raise the money and I doubt we’ll ever see a 120 million building in downtown Dallas owned by FBC.

    Although, at the end of the day, I don’t particularly care about what FBC Dallas does with their money. It’s not my church. It’s not a Baptist organization. It’s just a church. And it’s not really any of my business.


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    “I have looked over the task force membership. I don’t identify many, if any, Baptist identity people on there. Most of the BI people I know were not in favor of this report.”

    I am not sure why this is important or what it has to do with anything? Leadership tactics are the same whether they are the BI folks or the Reformed wing or whoever else.


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    Lydia:

    Junkster mentioned the BI guys in connection with his desire to see more ecumenism. I don’t think the BI guys are as open to that.


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    Do you mean why do I think that, or why is it the case? If the former, it’s just my opinion, but I haven’t seen much character displayed in leadership lately. If the later, I’d say it’s a general decline in our culture, the causes of which are numerous and complex. But I suspect TV has more to do with it than sun spots do. 🙂


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    Cliff

    Thank you for your answer. It helps to understand our differences. You see, I can’t believe the church of Jesus Christ has become the church of America.

    Unlike you, I care about what FBC Dallas, White and others do. I really, really care. I believe the church in America has perverted the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I am disgusted with the the church lots filled with expensive cars. The fancy atriums with coffee bars and well dressed families, 1/2 of whom will be divorced. But not to worry, they can go from one church to the next one down the street.

    The pastors buy (lease) jets, fancy houses, and join in mutually bless me clubs. Oh and you better respect their authority.And, if you are lucky, you will become head of some Baptist organization you might get rich, too.

    Then there are the sexual molesters who abuse our children and the pastors who cover it up to “save ministries” and could care less about saving the abused. There are pastors who send women back to their abusers.

    The SBC, to this women, has sold out and is just another feel good, America first organization. Its kind of like Jesus was an American and the Bible is a book on how to live the American dream.And many evangelical organizations and denominations are the same. So don’t take it personally.

    This is not the faith I found so many years ago. Thankfully I have found a church that doesn’t fit well in the mainstream.

    In the meantime, this is one voice crying from the evangelical wilderness to quote Michael Spencer.


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    Cliff,

    I appreciate your comments, and even though we may have differing opinions on some issues, I believe we are collectively concerned about carrying out the Great Commission here at TWW.

    I am terribly burdened by the abuses that are taking place within Christendom – the extravagant salaries of high level leaders, the awful misuse of tithes (building a monstrosity in Dallas, for example), hyper-authoritarianism, the viewing of pornography on church-owned computers, sexual crimes perpetrated by pastors, the dumbing down of women (you know, the “gullible and easily deceived”) in the church, and the heretical teachings (ESS and patriarchy) that have invaded Southern Baptist seminaries, to name a few.

    Dee and I believe all of these matters are of great importance to Almighty God; therefore, they are extremely important to us. Our mission here at The Wartburg Watch is to call attention to these matters so that our readership will be fully informed.


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    “Junkster mentioned the BI guys in connection with his desire to see more ecumenism. I don’t think the BI guys are as open to that.”

    That is even more confusing because it does not match the comment you made concerning the BI folks not supporting the GCR:

    “I have looked over the task force membership. I don’t identify many, if any, Baptist identity people on there. Most of the BI people I know were not in favor of this report.”


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    Don’t get me wrong – I do care about some issues. I just don’t care what one particular church says they are going to do with money they have yet to raise.

    I’m also not necessarily offended by nice cars and well-dressed people. I appreciate the Black church tradition of wearing your Sunday best. Some people at my church own nice cars and nice homes – they are also extremely charitable givers. I just don’t see the use in making such broad generalizations. How many pastors lease jets? 5? 10?

    Honestly, the Southern Baptist Convention has not radically changed in recent decades. Sure, there have been real theological shifts. However, it was still a patriotic, America-loving, consumeristic, capitalism-promoting, good-ole-boy-led denomination years ago. Sometimes the past really isn’t as peachy as we tend to think it was. Ultimately, the SBC is comprised of local churches. Some are spiritually dead and dying. But some are thriving and not guilty of any of the charges you have made. It’s a mixed bag like most denominations.


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    Dee, I find it interesting that you think that committees are for the most part, “an instrument of Satan.” (I’m pretty sure that some hyperbole was involved.) I think I read on another post that when pastors dismantle committees, they are part of the Baptist mafia. So are committees bad when they are made up of pastors in a denomination and good when they are made up of people in a church?


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    Cliff
    I am aware of the history of the SBC. It is that history that caused me to get a pit in my stomach when I joined an SBC church. And that pit was warranted. I was assured that it wasn’t a traditional SBC church. Well. I am not so sure. They play hip music, the pastors dress down but the same old issues are still present. Sexual sin is covered up, pastors think they have some sort of divine authority which gives them a pass on certain Biblical principles, and I am supposed to “obey” them as my “leaders.” Nonsense.

    Also, I will make generalizations. The American church places far more value on coffee bars in churches than they do in funding missions.And most churches that I have seen with fancy cars and well-dressed people tend to be “big hat, no cattle.” I think you will find that the more people emphasize the superficial, the less they give percentage wise-with rare exceptions.

    The more a pastor is paid and the more he lives a lavish lifestyle the more suspect his church and what that church stands for-and by this I am referring to FBC Jax, FBC Dallas, etc. Oh, I am sure that there are authentic Christians hidden in these churches but they are swallowed up by the guys with the agendas.

    Cliff, read the new book by Michael Spencer-Mere Churchianity. It might challenge some of your assumptions.


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    Scott

    Firstly, thank you for reading what we say so carefully.

    Yes, there was hyperbole involved.I am playing of Lewis point of view regarding bureaucracy.

    Now, for the Baptist Mafia part. Context to our argument is key. Some of the new breed of hyper-authoritarian pastors tend to appear on the scene and dismantle decades old traditions within churches. Deacons boards are dissolved. New boards with the pastors’ own boys (no, I am not being sarcastic. In a former church, one pastor was upset when one of his underlings story was challenged and he said, “He’s one of my boys.”) are put in place and the entire structure of the church, including some of the people who have devoted years to a ministry, are dismissed out of hand. In this context, we are calling for sensitivity and kindness in dealing with these issues.

    I highly recommend you read our post on the grandmother who was perp walked out of a church service. Grannie had the temerity to ask what happened to the committee of deacons that had been in her church for years. Grannie, for her question, was cuffed and walked out of her church. Here is the link: http://thewartburgwatch.com/2009/04/27/71-year-old-grandma-perp-walked-out-of-church-say-it-aint-so/

    Some committees work very well but sometimes committees exist for their own sake. God is interested in the process by which we follow His commands. It is not the end product that is of real value. It is how we treat each other as we get there.


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    Let me say that I appreciate the way in which you handle commenters who disagree with you. Your humility and graciousness toward commenters is obvious.
    As a pastor of a church that is led by elders and governed by the congregation, your criticisms of authoritarian pastors really resinate with me. People being thrown out of their church without Matthew 18 being properly followed is a serious issue. Making major decisions without congregational input is completely wrong.
    That being said, if “It is not the end product that is of real value. It is how we treat each other as we get there,” is referring to people with whom you disagree as “Calvinistas” and “the Baptist Mafia” not counterproductive at best? I have noticed a tendency on this blog to paint with a broad brush and to question people’s motives without proper reason. I think that your cause, (with which I have sympathy) would be better served by reporting issues with substantive commentary instead of sarcasm, name calling, and trying to discern ulterior motives.


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    I guess I don’t put too much value in generalizations. In this instance, I think your generalizations present a over-exaggerrated, almost doomsday picture.

    You wrote, “The American church places far more values on coffee bars in churches than they do in funding missions.”

    That’s an extreme statement, no doubt. In my most recent search for a new church home about 18 months ago, my wife and I visited approximately 10 different Baptist churches and 3 non-Baptist churches. Not one had a coffee bar! In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever been to a church with a coffee bar. I’ve visited a few megachurches along the way in places like Atlanta and Dallas. Maybe they had a coffee bar, who knows. As far as the SBC goes, I’m willing to wager that the overwhelming majority of Southern Baptists attend churches that look a bit different than the flashy, hip super-megachurches.

    The megachurch guys may swallow up all the media attention but I don’t think the Mac Brunsons and Ed Youngs are representative of the “American church.”

    As an aside, I’m not an evangelical, share very little in common with Southern Baptists in terms of theology and politics. SBCers would consider my church very liberal as we are affiliated with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and the Alliance of Baptists. I just have many friends and family members who are still Southern Baptists and who attend churches that share little in common with the Prestonwoods of the SBC universe and have pastors who don’t live lavish lifestyles and who are servants rather than pulpit-bulldawgs.


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    REPOSTING THIS HERE IN THE APPROPRIATE SPACE

    I guess I don’t put too much value in generalizations. In this instance, I think your generalizations present a over-exaggerrated, almost doomsday picture.

    You wrote, “The American church places far more values on coffee bars in churches than they do in funding missions.”

    That’s an extreme statement, no doubt. In my most recent search for a new church home about 18 months ago, my wife and I visited approximately 10 different Baptist churches and 3 non-Baptist churches. Not one had a coffee bar! In fact, I don’t think I’ve ever been to a church with a coffee bar. I’ve visited a few megachurches along the way in places like Atlanta and Dallas. Maybe they had a coffee bar, who knows. As far as the SBC goes, I’m willing to wager that the overwhelming majority of Southern Baptists attend churches that look a bit different than the flashy, hip super-megachurches.

    The megachurch guys may swallow up all the media attention but I don’t think the Mac Brunsons and Ed Youngs are representative of the “American church.”

    As an aside, I’m not an evangelical, share very little in common with Southern Baptists in terms of theology and politics. SBCers would consider my church very liberal as we are affiliated with the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship and the Alliance of Baptists. I just have many friends and family members who are still Southern Baptists and who attend churches that share little in common with the Prestonwoods of the SBC universe and have pastors who don’t live lavish lifestyles and who are servants rather than pulpit-bulldawgs.


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    Scott

    I love disagreement. Really. A great argument between confessing Christians who know how to major on the majors is most illuminating. In fact, it is the kind of discourse that is lacking in many of the situations that we cover.

    I belong to a church in which we disagree over many secondary issues. Don’t you find it interesting to see how folks come to their conclusions? We have never, once, deleted a comment due to disagreement. We have deleted a couple of inappropriate one. A Mark Driscoll fan called us lesbians in a most crude way and someone used an inappropriate name-long story.

    Also, disagreements are the lifeblood of a blog.It is like iron that sharpens iron. I can assure you that we think and pray about the responses we get. We are not perfect but we do this out of passion and years of serving in churches.

    We also think it is interesting to have a couple of women commenting for a change. Many Christian blogs are dominated by men, which is understandable. But we are two Christian women with advanced degrees who have lived a traditional life at home, raising our children. We think men and women occasionally need to hear from some women who care.

    Calvinista is term we made up to distinguish between Calvinists and those whose mission it is to search and destroy those who disagree with them. I have many good friends who are strong Calvinists and they would tell you that we have a great relationship.

    I struggled to find a term for those who have done great damage to the body of Christ in the name of Calvin. CJ Mahaney is one of those. If you have not followed the number of abuse claims against his ministry, you need to educate yourself. Start by going to sgmsurvivors.com So, I shall stick with this term for those who go beyond the pale.

    We did not invent the term Baptist Mafia. Doug Pittman did. I am not sure you have heard his full story. But having a fire set in one’s backyard, receiving threatening emails, letters, etc for exposing pornography on a pastor’s computer (the real Mafia was in the porno business as well) is quite an experience. In some circles, this stuff happens.

    So, just like all Italians are not Mafioso, not all Baptists are Baptist Mafia. It is reserved for those who are involved in doing great harm to others. Please read our series on Pray’s MIlls Baptist Church.If it doesn’t curl your hair you need a vacation.

    We did a series on the Baptist Mafia to explain why Doug Pittman uses the term. He was the one who explained it to us in most descriptive terms. I am of the opinion that Baptist leadership needs to hear this pain in all of its depth. They need to understand how abuse of this sort affects their people. They can handle it and they must deal with it. They are not, plain and simple.

    I can assure you that Doug and others like him actually followed Matthew 18 but were abused by those they sought to trust

    Finally, on the Matthew 18 deal. Once again I refer you to the spiritual abuse sites. This particular verse is used to slam honest questions. I had it used in an inappropriate way regarding a pedophile situation at a former church. Please read The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse to see the ways this passage has been misused.

    I am sure that you elders represent a clear picture of the congregation. I bet they challenge you and keep you on the straight and narrow. However, let me tell you what a former pastor said to me when we asked about his elders. he said that they only disagreed with him twice in 18 years!! He also said that they exist to serve his vision, period, end of sentence. So, you might understand if I view some churches with a jaundiced eye.

    In a healthy, well-balanced church it can be used effectively. In fact, I saw a situation resolved by the appropriate application of this verse along with the entire passage in a church that had a mature pastor and elders with backbones.

    As for motives, one cannot determine for sure what is in a person’s heart. However, as a mystery buff, I know that motives go a long way in figuring out the answer. I have a pastor who says that on his “best days” his “motives are mixed.”

    One thing we try to do is to distinguish between speculation and knowledge. You will find that we call the people involved, rarely receiving calls back. We have seen far too many church conflicts that have destroyed the faith and confidence of the priesthood. And we are doing our best to expose this stuff.

    Finally, thank you for caring enough to respond and to state you POV. Blessings


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    Cliff

    Thanks for your thoughts. Do you know how many pastors and seminary students go to conferences to learn how to be like Ed Young or Mac Brunson? These guys are the current idols and there are many who wish to be like them.

    Its funny you mentioned the coffee bar thing. I don’t know where you live, but this is becoming all the rage here in NC and in other parts of the country. I am fixing to do a series on a church in the middle of the state where controversy abounds. They decided to tear up the foyer in order to put in a coffee bar. This is small town. I am smiling as i look at my nice metal coffee travel mug that was given to me by the Summit Church for visiting. They had great coffee.

    I shall be writing a story about an African church that was promised $50,000 by an American church so that they could build a small church. Well the American church reneged. Why? They had to spend around a million dollars changing their building so that they could have…..you guessed it-a coffee bar.

    Maybe the Cooperative churches aren’t into this nonsense. If so, I applaud them. Thanks for your input. I am glad you are commenting. There are many Cooperative churches who are not as liberal as many SBCers think. They just don’t like the craziness of the SBC.


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    Cliff, What you might not understand is most SBC churches WANT to be like the Mega’s. I have a family member that does nothing but travel the US consulting with churches on “how to”. Church growth and marketing are a huge business.

    These “wants” are hard to pick up on if one is not in the inner circle or if one does not know what to look for.


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    “Thanks for your thoughts. Do you know how many pastors and seminary students go to conferences to learn how to be like Ed Young or Mac Brunson? These guys are the current idols and there are many who wish to be like them. ”

    And the other side of the ailse with the T4G followers. The reformed wing is catching up with the above in conferences, books, speaking gigs, money, etc. And is even worse when it comes to cult of personality.