See the sunrise every 90 minutes from the ISS. NASA
“For where God built a church, there the Devil would also build a chapel.” Martin Luther
On Wednesday, I will finally be able to write “the rest of the story.” Justice has been served after 40 years. It is a story like this that keeps me blogging. TWW participated in making sure this story saw the light. Tonight, I’m celebrating. Please rejoice with the victim and me by reading the post. I will rerun a post I wrote about Good Friday and Easter on Friday.
I spent a lot of time wandering in the post-evangelical wilderness. At one point, I was about to give up and might have done so if I had not found my Lutheran church. During this search, I was still a Christian. I read my Bible, prayed, read some great books, and spent much time on the Internet, interacting with frustrated people looking for church homes. I had spent many years in typical evangelical, nondenominational churches and one SBC church which was the cause for this blog.
I liked most of my other churches. As I got older, I noticed an interesting trend. All churches want young people ostensibly to keep the faith growing. Sermons and conferences centered around attracting young families by emphasizing their youth programs. My family benefitted from this emphasis. This is not a post condemning the family emphasis in churches. It is a post expressing concern for those who have been forgotten and in some cases, not wanted.
I am a member of the Baby Boomers.
- Baby Boomers have always had an outsize presence compared with other generations. They peaked at 78.8 million in 1999 and remained the largest living adult generation until 2019.
- By midcentury, the Boomer population is projected to dwindle to 16.2 million.
Millenials numbers surpassed the Boomers in 2019
- Millennials have surpassed Baby Boomers as the nation’s largest living adult generation, according to population estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau. As of July 1, 2019 (the latest date for which population estimates are available),
- With immigration adding more numbers to this group than any other, the Millennial population is projected to peak in 2033, at 74.9 million. Thereafter, the oldest Millennial will be at least 52 years of age and mortality is projected to outweigh net immigration. By 2050 there will be a projected 72.2 million Millennials.
The other groups, like Gen Z, are sandwiched between these two large groups. I will focus on older church members.
Baby Boomers/Older Americans are leaving the church.
Christianity Today wrote an interesting article: The Church Is Losing Its Gray Heads. It is subtitled: “Why are boomers and Gen X dropping out of church at higher rates than younger Christians?”
Patterns in church attendance show that people over 40—that is, Gen X and baby boomers—are at least as likely to stop attending church as millennials and Gen Z.
…according to Barna, some of the biggest declines in church attendance over the past three decades have been among adults 55 and older. “We can’t just blame the young people for the drop in church attendance,
…US government data that in the past few years, adults between 55 and 64 are reporting significantly reduced church attendance, lowering their attendance by 10 percentage points. These older adults are not fitting the pattern of other generations, who report similar rates of church attendance in 2018 and 2021. This may mean that churches will soon notice the drop in their older attendees, even if the pattern isn’t clear yet.
It was thought that young people drop out of the church but show up when they marry and have kids. Then, they stay on. Not so.
When people stop attending church these days, their pastors can’t expect them to return.
Why are they going? Would it surprise you to know they still hold onto their faith?
Among those over 65 who didn’t attend church, 45 percent said they don’t go to church because “I practice my faith in other ways.” About the same proportion of people between 50 and 64 said the same. In other words, just under half of Christians over 40 who stop attending church feel they’re still practicing their faith.
The older folks tend to “fade away” because they aren’t satisfied with their church. They aren’t getting what they need.
I loved this comment by a former church member.
Phillips had a conversation recently with one of his middle-aged members who had left. “I love you. I love the people there,” the man explained. “But quite frankly, I’m getting everything I get at church in my soccer club.”
They don’t dislike their church. They don’t like some aspects of it
In the Pew survey about quitting church, less than a third (28%) of Christians over 65 who don’t attend church said they stopped because of dislike for the church. This group selected statements such as “I haven’t found a church I like,” “I don’t like the sermons,” and “I don’t feel welcome.”
There were some speculative thoughts involving politics. I’m not so sure about this one.
Josh Baker is a professor at East Tennesee State University and editor of Sociology of Religion. Baker has found that the main difference between those leaving and staying in churches is political affiliation. Those who identify as Independent or Democrat politically are most likely to stop attending church and pursue their faith privately, he says.
They don’t quit because of scandal or abuse? I disagree.
I have seen people exit in serious situations. Hillsong, Willow Creek, etc., all saw attendance decline dramatically. I think this quote is simply wishful thinking, but I can’t prove it. Undoubtedly some folks out there are studying this issue.
Burge said, people rarely quit church for dramatic reasons like scandal or abuse. “The reality is that most people leave for very practical reasons,” he said. They could move, or life becomes busy and church is not as convenient as it once was.“Some people can’t even articulate why they left in a coherent way. They just did.”
The following insight from one woman made me feel like I’m not alone in my thinking.
“The church became increasingly antagonistic towards ‘others,’ not attuned to the fact that I am the other,” said Redl, who is Black and has two biracial children.
She said the church also began to display an alignment with extreme-right politics and handled addressing sexual abuse in the church poorly.
Is it disenchantment with how life worked out? Is it the disenchantment of those who followed “how to be a good Christian in three easy steps?”
I think most of us experience disenchantment with life. Jobs don’t pan out. Kids walk away from the faith or have other problems: physical, mental, and spiritual. Perhaps it is disenchantment with the promises of some churches.
- Follow this book, and your kids will become Christian.
- Make sure your kids are in the youth group, and they will be safe.
- Give x percent of your income to the church, and God will bless you.
- Follow these steps, and you will have a good marriage.
Landow believes many of those who become disenchanted with Christianity do so when their lives don’t live up to their expectations. “Maybe their marriage is not what they thought it would be, or raising kids is not as fulfilling as they thought it would be,” he said.
As a “Boomer,” I survived “5 steps to a better marriage, better kids, etc.” I needed something deeper from church and found it. But many can’t, no matter how hard they try. They then give up.
Don’t assume the spiritually mature stay, no matter what. They don’t.
This comment jumped out at me, and I fully concur.
McConnell said. He believes that’s why it’s important for churches to consider all age groups as at risk of leaving.
“As people age, they tend to become more spiritually mature, but that doesn’t remove the risk or likelihood that they could go astray or no longer want to be practicing with other believers.”
If church leadership and members keep that in mind and reach out to those who haven’t been at church in a while to see what they’re struggling with and let them know they’re valued, McConnell said it can help push back against the trends.
The church may not be meeting the spiritual needs of the older believer, and that could spell trouble for the church.
So many churches focus on younger members and miss out on the wisdom of those who have much to offer. They are forgotten when churches decide on programming. For example, churches could form support groups for those caring for loved ones with Alzheimer’s. How about having groups for empty-nesters to meet each other? What about a Bible study on how the Bible views aging?
Where do older church-goers put their money? Before finding our current church, we elected to use our money to help a parachurch ministry in which we actively participate. I think churches that lose older members might see funds directed elsewhere.
Other reasons why older members leave the church
An article from Good Faith Media had further insights: 3 Reasons People Over 60 Leave Your Church.I particularly liked the following. Yep- older people are not sitting around eating bonbons these days.
Seasoned saints no longer attend church because they are busy like everyone else.
This has to do with the changing landscape of family life and split families.
Whereas families used to live in the same neighborhoods and attend the same churches, many families are spread across the state or the nation. Grandparents have to travel in order to visit adult children and grandchildren.
The effects of cultural shifts, anxious churches trying to attract younger churchgoers, and a transient family landscape have led to the decline of church attendance in the older generations.
Frankly, we have not balanced the need to change with the honoring of traditions that have brought stability over the years.
In reaching for one generation, we’ve left another behind by taking people for granted.
The best quote from this article is:
Everyone wants a church filled with energetic, enthusiastic young people, but they don’t want to attend a service that feels like a youth group for adults.
Ageism and the church
I think churches get young people and families. They have so focused on these groups that they have lost the older members.
When I went to work on the Navajo Reservation, I was surprised that the younger Navajos would address the elderly as “Grandmother” and “Grandfather.” I learned that this was their way of honoring them. The oldest members of that community hold an important position. The younger members sought their input for important decisions. They often point out the most senior people who attended a health fair or meeting. At the health fairs, we would give a gift of flour and salt to the most senior male and female.
These days people are retiring later and are often just as busy as the younger folks. It’s time to rethink the bias of the church. Is it ageism? Perhaps, the church merely reflects the culture instead of pursuing healthy, well-balanced relationships.
One church asked its older members to worship elsewhere as they “reset the church.
Let’s end on this point. Kiro7 reported Struggling church asks aging congregation to ‘stay away’ in hopes of attracting young families.
Grove United Methodist Church will be closing in June, but plans to relaunch in November. Current members, most over 60 years old, will be asked to worship somewhere else, according to the St. Paul Pioneer Press reported.
Officials from the church said the congregation needs a reset and the best way is to appeal to younger people. The church has struggled with membership and finances. Seven years ago, the church could no longer pay for its minister, so it switched to lay ministry, with weekly sermons by members.
… “I pray for this church, getting through this age-discrimination thing,” William Gackstetter said at church on a recent Sunday as the gray-haired heads around him nodded in agreement, according to the Associated Press.
The pastor said they wouldn’t be barred from attending, but…
The older members will not be physically barred from attending, Peters said, but the expectation is that they won’t.
“We are asking them to let this happen,” Wetterstrom said. “For this to be truly new, we can’t have the core group of 30 people. The members of the church have other options. They can come to Woodbury during this phase.”
Do not be worried. They can reapply for membership in the church in 2 years! Well, maybe…
Former members can reapply to Grove United Methodist Church in two years after consulting with the pastor
I have a feeling that this will get some interesting comments. As an older person, what do you not like about the church? As a young person, what do you think about more senior members of your church? Do you participate in activities such as Bible studies with them or do you stay focused on younger interests only?
Once . . . . in a while I might be, well, 1st.
Nothing says all are welcome here like telling ye old folks to take a hike.
. To quote Semisonic: “Closing time, you don’t have to go home but you can’t stay here”
Something seems potentially amiss with that strategy. If they don’t already have enough “younger” folk attending to make it a “going concern”, why would they all suddenly start coming if the old folks stayed away? Sounds like a solid plan to just crater the church for good.
Best laugh of the day!
Afterburne,
Faster than a speeding bullet!
Indeed, or just happening to check at the optimal time. 😉
My husband and I would be considered boomers. We have only attended a physical church service a few times since the pandemic started, but watch online. Partly it’s because our church (which has over 2000 in attendance), had to reduce its meeting locations from four to two, since two were in movie theaters. We had mostly attended one of those in a theater, and that was more like attending a church of a couple hundred and you would see the same people every week. The church stresses small groups, and we have been with the same group for several years now. But I still feel like no one knows us outside of the small group, including the pastors. It’s a different feeling from our previous churches, which were small enough so you got to know everyone eventually.
There are other good churches around, but a lot have some distinctive belief included in membership – such as KJV only or young earth creationism.
The other issue is style – at home we don’t have to endure very loud modern worship music, plus fancy lighting, etc. I’m probably more conservative about music than most, but I miss the days when I was one of the pianists in a former church – there isn’t any way I can contribute in the same way any more.
Young(er) person here.
Old people are just people. Some of them I get along with, others I don’t. Both inside the church and outside of it. Making lunch plans at the moment, actually, with a 70-something (I don’t ask) friend I used to work with whom I haven’t seen since the pandemic started (she’d been keeping her pod small because of health concerns, but we’ve kept in touch).
When my husband and I were first married, the church we attended centered groups entirely around life stages. He taught in various life stage groups, so we got to experience the feel of a variety of them, and the one we felt the most at-home with was the empty-nester group, because we didn’t have any kids at home, either!
And we’ll be attending a “Senior Saints” potluck next week, to get to know more people at the church we’ve been visiting for a while.
I think the assumption that younger people don’t want to hang out with older people is ageist on two levels. One, that older people are unappealing. Two, that younger people are so shallow.
And directing all (resources, leadership, attention, real estate, face time, voices, music preferences, programming, etc.) toward “the next gen”.
A local mega’s new pastor ended traditional worship, mothballed a mil $$ organ, no choir, no orchestra, covered up windows, and transformed an ornate sanctuary into a black box (like the renovated Kmart or warehouse megas).
Whitehairs left with their money, wisdom, experience, volunteerism (retired folk), and leadership. Oops.
2 questions:
1. Why can’t we be friends: boomers, mils, nextgens, xgens, seniors, et al?
2. Why not make the church unfriendly to pedo-predators instead of unfriendly to seniors?
Music is a thing.
A subway owner was having problems with loitering so he plays Mozart on speakers inside and out. Mozart lovers don’t loiter?
A city block park had issues with vagrants antagonizing strollers so they installed speakers playing classical music. Worked, for some reason.
Churches don’t set out to drive people away but apparently music is super important.
I’m a younger boomer (64) who attends a church of about 500. I’ve been there for the last 20 years and I participate in both the Spanish and English congregations. They have a good worship team that sings the best of the new and older songs. The preaching is great in both congregations. I serve mostly with children, but also do a lot of translation for bilingual services and conferences. The hardest thing for me is finding “my” group. I am single, never-married and it’s hard to socialize with older married couples, especially with all their extended family. I gave up on finding a Sunday morning Bible class, for example. The social activities were all geared towards couples. I’m a bit of an outlier who happily serves, knowing no church is perfect, but my church is better than most.
Gen-Xer here.
“There were some speculative thoughts involving politics. I’m not so sure about this one.
Josh Baker is a professor at East Tennesee State University and editor of Sociology of Religion. Baker has found that the main difference between those leaving and staying in churches is political affiliation. Those who identify as Independent or Democrat politically are most likely to stop attending church and pursue their faith privately, he says.”
I do see this talked about a lot online, actually, people not feeling welcome anymore as churches tilt farther to the right. I was doing okay, though–until we got a new priest and some new converts/members. Now politics and culture war/COVID battles are making their way into the sermons and coffee hour conversations at an alarming rate. But I don’t have a “soccer club” to replace it with, just a very small club where people also get political at times. And I would miss people who’ve been a part of my life for over 15 years. So I stay put, hoping the madness will pass. I recently learned that a right-leaning friend shares my concerns about political sermons. So hopefully this won’t be a problem for long.
Hmmm. Lots to say. But I don’t want to write an essay and I expect most don’t want to read one.
There’s a lot of nostalgia hiding in this post. Not as the topic but buried in the subtext.
Back in the day when I was growing up in the somewhat the somewhat rural mid-west, we didn’t have cable TV or streaming anything or portable music or …. Where I lived we had 3 channel TV plus PBS maybe sort of if the conditions were perfect. So church was sort of the social club that held the community together. We had multiple denominations but switching was more about who had insulted who and when services let out of lunch than deep theological issues. For most people.
You did church in many cases because it was where social life intersected with your standing in the community. Not going to church made you an outsider. I suspect this is part of the issue with those “Godless big cities”. They had other ways for the marginally faithful to occupy their time. So people stayed with a church or a nearby one. Especially in rural USA. Where Evangelism was strong.
Now many (most?) of the people attending church were there for their faith. But many of them could not define it. And there were generational divides. I have memories of my 80 year old grandfather telling my 40 year old father that he and the other youngsters were ruining the church. [eyeroll]
So … now the world has changed. In terms of how we can occupy our time. 200 channel TV is the basic package. Who doesn’t have a Spotify account but me? Anyone else notice that their local paper is mostly about things not local as the local staff is maybe 10% of what it was a few decades ago?
Anyway, if we’re not in church, we can find other ways to socially connect and occupy our time.
So when the following things happen:
– How did you vote. You know a real Christian would only vote this way.
– Are you really going to let you children go to that evil secular university instead of the great Christian one run by the great TV preacher?
– What do you mean you believe the universe is billions of years old.
– If you don’t believe in TULIP how can you consider yourself a Christian
– All Christians should get a pass on breaking laws based around “morals” as the church can better “fix them”.
– You wind up in the hospital for some reason and someone you’ve never seen before shows up FROM THE CHURCH to comfort you.
– Confess all your sins to the small group. They will never be used against you. (I have a bridge.)
– And I’m sure everyone here can add a few to this list.
So people bump into these, at times with venom behind the discussion, and they walk. And after checking out a few other churches with similar issues they just keep walking.
And most of the churches blame the devil. Or the “evil” political party. Or the schools. Or … Not the people they see in the mirror.
It took me literally years to find a church. Along the way I had virtually all of them ignore my emails when I simply asked as a mature single person if the culture was such that I’d be “welcome.” At another, one that finally did respond, after only a few visits I was told I was being gossiped about and that all kinds of things were being said. This by the pastor’s wife no less. And, I’d revealed virtually nothing about myself and was only trying to get the layout of the land at that point. I bet that wouldn’t have happened had I been part of the cute young couple with school age kids.
I finally found one purely by accident and in fact it was one I initially shied away from as it’s a Baptist church and I was burned pretty badly by IFB and SBC churches. But I eventually tried it. It’s an unusual one for sure. It’s pretty conservative and multiracial with a strong emphasis on the Word in context and no politics. I’ve been going since September and not once have I been treated differently than anyone else or wrongly just because I’m never married and have no kids. But it took years upon years to find.
So I am a “Baby Boomer” who was a pastor who walked away from “the show.” My Millennial members wanted the church remade in their image. Didn’t care what was going on in the church at that moment or before; they wanted “their” music, “their” staff members, and “their” politics to become predominant. And I was regularly reminded that they were the “future of the church” and that I could “be replaced,”
As a mental health therapist today, many of my patients have left the church, and they consider themselves doing just fine. As one recently told me, “I worship early Sunday morning in the quiet of my den with my Bible, some music, and prayer. No more arguments in Sunday School about who should or should not wear a mask. No more hurt feelings when one ‘Christian’ tells another ‘Christian’ that they are couldn’t be a Christian and vote for a particular political candidate. My spiritual, but nonreligious friends are more caring and supportive than my ‘church family.’ At age 38, I am ‘free’ from the church but am closer to God than ever before. I won’t be going back to the church.”
Just a heads-up to let you know that YouTuber SciManDan has once again featured Greg Locke, whom I believe you know:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjnH_3WZBmA
Telling older people to stay away is outrageous. I totally agree with the problem churches have with the other and think that in the Instagram age if leaders want an Instagram ready congregation that’s a problem in itself.
As is the total failure to see that the church’s (define church as you will here) own behaviour is such a big contributor to people leaving. But hey, if they’re not young or celebs that ok.
I think the near future of Christian practice will begin to follow the historical precedent of neo pagan religions in the nineties, even before the internet was so widespread. People wanted to join but couldn’t access groups for initiation so they started initiating themselves and practicing them in a solitary way. Their only contact with others may have been through moots if they lived in urban areas, and some established groups had outer courts where non initiates could join in rituals. The Reclaiming group in San Francisco has always said anyone can belong to them if they agree with their principles.
As the internet grew of course that was another way of contact.
If people are leaving church but not losing faith it may well go this way.
In the UK we also have the opposite, which is a Sunday gathering without religion, called Sunday Assembly…
I noticed in both the original post and in all the comments the name Jesus is not mentioned. How odd? We wring our hands over the plight of the church but never mention the founder, head and cornerstone. Could this be part of the problem? But, perhaps calling people to follow the self-giving, self-sacrificing Jesus the Christ, the One who calls people come die with him, just isn’t a good marketing gimmick?
re: the simplistic procedures and promises:
* Follow this book, and your kids will become Christian.
* Make sure your kids are in the youth group, and they will be safe.
* Give x percent of your income to the church, and God will bless you.
* Follow these steps, and you will have a good marriage.
The Scriptures are far more comprehensive, but also open-ended: “If you get only one thing, get wisdom; it will save your life”
My interpretation is that increasingly people are getting wisdom, and, at least in some cases, wisdom is counseling them that “this is not a sufficiently wholesome entity to justify continuing in it.”
—
I also think that “scale” is a problem. Many people want to think that there is more for them to contribute than simply passive listening and active $ contributions — that they are more than simply the funding source and substrate on which the leadership acts. There’s some evidence in Paul’s writings that at least some of the congregations he founded were far more participatory than modern “best practices” permit. Smaller groups are less efficient and so have more opportunities for everyone who wants to serve to do that in some way.
—
Back to the biblical “Wisdom agenda”, if wisdom is the most valuable thing, perhaps one could say that the second most valuable thing, if you can’t get wisdom of your own, is to find wise counsel from others who do have wisdom.
Discouraging the older part of the age distribution rather than valuing and employing their wisdom is not, IMO, a recipe for long-term success of a human enterprise.
Each generation repeats the mistakes of its predecessors, and that problem is probably worse if you don’t even try to learn from the predecessors’ mistakes.
(I’m scratching my head about this. We’ve been at this ‘human society’ thing for many tens of thousands of years, and the Church has notionally been following Jesus’ commands, such as ‘love one another as I have loved you’, for nearly 2000 years. Are we any better at it now than we were at the beginning? Does wisdom not accumulate from generation to generation? If not, why not? Is there any way to repair this?)
“One church asked its older members to worship elsewhere as they “reset the church.”
That may not be the abomination that causes desolation, but it’s close.
“As an older person, what do you not like about the church?”
I was young and now am old. Before joining the “Done” ranks a few years ago, I spent 70+ years in the institutional church, most of it in SBC. During my journey, I witnessed the good, the bad and the ugly performed in the name of Christianity … I expended much blood, sweat and tears for decades trying to do what I could as the Spirit led.
I left SBC when New Calvinism reared its ugly head in Southern Baptist ranks. But the overriding reason I don’t like “the church” is that it (in far too many places) is simply not engaged in the Great Commission. The organized church by and large is not reaching the lost for Christ, nor equipping them in the Word. It is prayerless and powerless. There is not enough Spirit in the average church to blow the dust off a peanut. In a day when the pulpit is focused on being culturally relevant, it has become irrelevant to the Kingdom of God. Another gospel is being preached which is not the Gospel at all. Bottom line: the church is not the Church at all in many corners of Christendom. Old guys like me who love Jesus and desire to serve Him with the Body of Christ to accomplish the Great Commission together are being cancelled out. I suppose it’s much more exciting and prosperous to do church without God … and I’ll have no part of it.
(Disclaimer: I know there are still faithful pulpits/pews in America which are indeed on track with Jesus and pursuing the heart of God by the Spirit … but they are become the exception rather than the norm, rare and endangered, a needle in a haystack, a precious treasure buried in the field. Praise God if you’ve found one like that! They can’t be found in my area.)
When Jesus left, the disciples returned to fishing. That’s what I’m doing now.
I’m not convinced the madness will pass … guess I read TWW too much 🙂
The youth group is running the church in many communities.
“I have a feeling that this will get some interesting comments.”
I had heard about this before, but in the re-telling, it becomes that much more pathetic to take in.
Two groups of people are dear to the Church: the very young who need Christian formation and the elderly for whom Church IS a ‘lifeline’ for many. . . . unless they are ‘put out’ . . . .
a ‘church’ that puts out its own elderly is forever shamed in my opinion – to take away the place of prayer for those who have faithfully attended because they supposedly ‘drive away’ a target group of younger people . . .
this past year, I saw the film ‘Midsommar’ where when people reach a certain age, they are expected to kill themselves by jumping off a cliff, and if they ‘survive’ the fall and still live, they are beaten to death . . .
can someone tell me what evil leads people to the sin of ageism to such extremes?
It sounds as pagan as in the times when people placed their handicapped and ‘de-formed’ newborns out to be ‘exposed’ to the elements and to perish by nature’s hand, so that they forgave themselves of the guilt of killing the helpless littles . . .
I don’t understand. I can’t understand. It’s too dark an image to be ‘of Christ’
It seems so cold, so inhumane. I wonder what happened to the old people that ‘church’ put out???
I can imagine the kinds of folks who might be ‘attracted’ to such a ‘church’ but they will not find a ‘church home’ there, because when THEY get ‘too old’, they also will be ‘disposable’ and put out: what is the famous literary saying? “Home is the place that when you go there, they have to take you in.”
NC Now,
Good points.
Church is relationships. Everything depends on the quality of relationships. Love God, and love each other as well as self.
Theologians don’t get it, however.
Scale, as in megas, put on a better show.
Nothing to do with, as you note, Jesus’ command to, “Love one another as I have loved you.”
Predators bring their version of “love”, which is terror.
A love rich environment must confront predation full on, full metal jacket. What church does that? Toxic love bombing in churches is common. Ask the victims.
Back to the topic of seniors in churches: they don’t get love bombed. By and large, seniors are invisible.
Unless it’s some old guy holdout from “the good old days” still preying on women, kids. It happens… we visited a cute little country church with our friends where they had the career usher who always managed to swipe the women’s breasts as he retrieved the offering plate. The women all knew. Politely did nothing.
People don’t leave church. They leave toxic environments.
Some of them do. In an introductory class in a counseling sequence that I sat decades ago, the instructor started in an odd place — he surveyed the different sub-disciplines within Theology, starting with exegetical theology and ramifying through more specific sub-disciplines such as biblical theology (how ideas evolve through the text; progress of revelation) and systematic theology, and arriving finally at … practical theology. His point was that practical theology, how to live and serve in light of Truth, is the goal, is the ‘payoff’, is the point, of the massive intellectual enterprise of the Church’s theological reflections.
Perhaps he (a practical theologian) was just ‘talking his book’, but I think he was right.
I think that part of the problem of theology often in practice not connecting with life is that it is assumed that the Holy Spirit will apply spoken truths to the hearer’s life — sort of like fertilizing a plant; the gardener doesn’t have to do more after that. I think that this doesn’t actually happen all that frequently — one could argue about why that is (my preferred theory is that the Spirit inhabits the relational spaces between people and that Paul’s “one another” agendas must be at work in a congregation if “Spirit ministry” between people is to take place). Or perhaps lived example is more potent than spoken word, and perhaps the examples that are being lived in some of these church contexts are actually at variance with the spoken word.
I agree.
I’ve met some wonderful older people in the church who have mentored me and are inspirations for me.
I actually haven’t met any older person in the church that I truly dislike – perhaps I’m lucky and still have a couple more decades to meet one. I’m very glad to see older people in the church I attend.
One disturbing trend I’ve noticed in some older people is the tendency to take on American evangelical culture as an identity (Republican, anti-science, YEC, etc…). I feel like their time in the church has affected their ability to think critically. The more time – the more this identity takes hold. Despite this tendency, however, many who take on this identity have still been quite loving in many ways – even to people who think differently.
Julie Roys has another list of reasons why people leave Hillsong “church”:
https://julieroys.com/leaked-hillsong-nyc-report-sex-abuse-misconduct-beyond-carl-lentz/
Seems like HS NY was more like the financial and support vehicle for a celebrity lifestyle (including all the usual perks ) for the top dogs, than anything resembling a church. If only they had been a bit less brazen, e.g. only as brazen as Brian H., the gig could have gone on forever.
Samuel Conner,
Great comment, Samuel!
Then there’s my older friend Donna— she still loves Jesus and attends church at over 90. She and her husband Al, who died last year, were ranchers. They used to keep the books at their small church of mostly older people, But a few years ago the husband/wife pastor team computerized the finances and took a course in how to manage them. Al and Donna were put out to pasture. We can only hope the pastors are honest, seeing as they literally write their own paycheck.
And they don’t take non-sexual abuse seriously. Abuse runs on a continuum, from manipulation, to grooming, and beyond. But at a time when us baby boomers are headed to the great disco in the sky, we run into far too much immature, hateful behavior in church. And Mr. and Mrs. Pilate comprise the majority of church members—they carry on about Lent, but the most they manage to do is give up chocolate for a week.
So, I think I will be carrying a sign when I protest outside my former church on Easter Sunday that says, “Welcome to Grace, Mr. and Mrs. Pilate!” 😉
Not if you are Episcopal. If you are, you’re wondering what a youth group is, LOL
This is the money quote, I think:
“Everyone wants a church filled with energetic, enthusiastic young people, but they don’t want to attend a service that feels like a youth group for adults.”
I think that hits the nail on the head. There’s some research I’ve seen (years ago now) that traced the impact of youth ministry after WW2, where teenagers were corralled into “youth groups,” which increasingly become more and more cut off from the grown ups. In time, as these young people aged, they re-made church in the image of their youth groups.
This, coupled with marketing strategies passed off as culturally-informed outreach, created rock concerts posing as worship and infotainment posing as sermons. Sacraments, Scripture readings, and tradition got lost.
No wonder the old folks are bailing out.
For the record: I’m 71 years old, a retired Protestant minister, and along with my wife will be received into the Roman Catholic Church this weekend. Grown up church, at last.
Thanks for posting this!
It was also an attempt to keep them “from the world”. Which has been a total disaster. For the resulting grown ups and society in general.
I’m about your age and my father was a WW2 vet. Many of his peers who grew up in the 30s were determined their kids would not suffer. In church this was different than out of church. But it created a generation who didn’t know how to live in the “real world”.
Way back in the last millennium, when this old man was a young man, there was a term tossed around in Southern Baptist ranks that you don’t hear anymore: Practical Sonship. It was the idea, that as children of God, believers were to live their faith practically … to go into a lost world with the love of Christ to share the most precious story ever told, to minister to hurting people, to meet them at their point of need, to be the hands of Jesus in a practical way, to tell everyone regardless of race, class or gender that Jesus died for them, to take the Gospel to every tongue, tribe and nation … to be practical as Christians rather than just religious. During the ensuing years, I guess we’ve become so intellectual in our pursuit of God that we don’t have enough sense to be practical.
What’s your point? Your comment does not mention God, the Holy Spirit, the Bible, love, grace, sin, and many other words central to Christianity. Why not?
I call it aging out. I now have that t-shirt among my many other t-shirts from my Christian journey.
another sad observation . . . the so-called ‘praise’ music doesn’t measure up to the beautiful old hymns found in the old hymnals, so beloved of the older generation.
Those old hymns share a ‘theological tradition’ far stronger than the modern ‘noise’ that fills auditoriums from a ‘stage’ with a band on it . . . .
maybe the churches that abandoned their hymnals sent a message fore-warning their older members . . . that it wasn’t so much ‘the times’ that were changing as those old hymns taught what the ‘modern’ pastors could not abide by any more . . . (?)
very sad those hymns are not much sung any more – they were so beautiful
Around 20 years or so ago we moved from a heavily SBC area (we were part of that group) to an area with very few Baptists of any stripe. We fell in love with the local Lutheran church. Then after around 5 years we moved to an area that was predominantly RCC. We opted at first to attend the local SBC. I was in my 50’s and taking the grandkids. I was behind a visiting couple at the door on the way out one Sunday, and heard the pastor tell this new to town couple in their 60’s that he was glad they enjoyed their visit, but since they were not of the church’s target demographic he was sure they would find another place to worship in the future. So did I.
Years later we were visiting that same SBC, new pastor. He came and very early wanted the senior SS class, the largest they had, moved from the sanctuary to a room being used as a small storage room. Large closet. He did not want visitors to see gray heads or white hair, you see. He asked us seniors to find a way to volunteer–nursery, security, do some grounds keeping OUT BACK or something during worship so as not to scare away younger visitors. We did not go back. I learned later he was fired from a previous church several states away for the same thing.
I live where almost no one got the covid vax, no one wears a mask, and we still have a pretty high transmission. So we are still not back in church. Watching online, without the hype (in our Lutheran case the liturgy) did not take me but two years to realize it is nothing like the Lutheran churches we have loved.
I got out some SBC materials from 30-40 years ago and compared them to what the local SBC teaches. They are not even close. But I have realized that I still believe what I believed back then, and if I find a church I consider physically safe that teaches it I am up for attending. But I am done, finished, over compromising what I consider the truth in order to fit in and please people.
And if “junior” Christians (aka local pastors) want my support they have to get on the ball. Otherwise, I will continue to live my faith without attending a 501(c)3 organzation.
Church happens. Just not always inside brick and mortar walls.
Luckyforward,
The comment from the 38-year-old makes me sad! Not that he or she is doing anything wrong, but that they can’t find community in the church.
To me, and I’d love some feedback, it makes more sense to learn how to push back against controlling beliefs and practices instead of removing oneself from them completely.
That said, I recently left a church with some of the exact same issues mentioned by the patient! But I’m attending another predominantly white evangelical church, albeit with a wider definition of who’s in and who’s out (EFCA).
I keep thinking I’ll figure out how to live in community with others who disagree with me instead of leaving. For sure, it IS difficult, and I haven’t figured it out yet.
When you’re told non stop you’re wrong it gets hard. Even when they don’t realize they are talking about you.
Being told that if you don’t go along with them in politics, TULIP, YEC, etc… you must not really be a Christian. Oh, well.
My point is I agree with you. And so often these people don’t realize they are talking to people “in the room”.
The Dones (done with church, but not done with Jesus) will always find a way to be the Church even if they don’t go to church. It’s the same bunch that ‘were’ the Church in the last church they went to … they went out from them because they were not of them.
Randy Thompson,
Feliz Pascua and welcome to the Dark Side ;-). I love my parish and my fellow parishioners, young and old, and our slightly dotty pastor and his annoying dog.
Dan, if you hang out very long at TWW (I have for years), you will find that many who comment here love Jesus and have entered a battle to protect His precious Name from being trampled by an abusive counterfeit church in America. While they may not have dropped His name in this particular post, they know Him and represent Him well on this blog and elsewhere. They may not go to church, but they are the Church.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-egY6t9BMGI
I’m betting it was just a drive-by comment and he won’t be back.
No. Just not a frequent commenter. GBTC
I have so many thoughts on this topic I don’t know where to start. I quit an SBC church around five or six years ago for a number of reasons, but one was this issue of aging out. The church was very much focused on young families. They were not actively against older people, but there was not much for older people to do there except to support “next generation “ministry” activities, be greeters, or help with parking. But the biggest emphasis was on serving in the youth ministry, which pretty much meant teaching Gospel Project curriculum.
Based on the urging of my children, who by then were all in college, I volunteered to help with the high school students. The youth pastor, who was at first excited to have me as a volunteer, ghosted me when he discovered I believe in old earth creation.
There was a huge emphasis on coming to church to serve, which was largely driven by the overly complex next generation ministry (they needed 400 volunteers each weekend to support attendance of around 1200 people). My generation was expected to serve without being served. It made me think if church is where everyone is supposed to serve without being served, it means quite a lot of people are there to be served rather than to serve. Or the need for service was self-inflicted. It seemed self-defeating.
I also think the heavy emphasis on youth ministry creates desperation for volunteers, which makes it easier for abusers to get involved. Even though that church thought they were doing all the right things for youth safety, they let an unvetted older man help with the children, and I remain convinced he had an unhealthy interest in children.
When people age out of the demographic and find themselves as grandparents, and then hear the church advertise itself as “not your grandparents’ church,” what they hear is “this is not your church.” And that message was inadvertently reinforced in numerous subtle ways. It makes church attendance more life sapping than life giving.
Youth ministry is a very modern invention. Christianity thrived for centuries with children participating in the same church services as their parents. The lack of complexity meant very few people were needed to run services, which meant more people could participate in ministries for the needy. Maybe that model is needed again. It still exists in many liturgical denominations.
Really?
Paul Pressler is finally in trouble with the DOJ, but NOT the church.
The church overflows with predation; never mind the theologians. They don’t talk about it, write about it, do anything about it. In any case, talk is cheap. So cheap.
Judge Pressler was too big to fail in SBC. He was co-architect (with Paige Patterson) for SBC’s Conservative (aka Calvinist) Resurgence. So the elite protected him.
The American church needs to seriously reconsider its youth ministry model. Not to mention all the pervert youth leaders it has spawned, youth ministries have not sufficiently equipped young believers in the Word. The Biblical model is for senior saints to mentor youth, not young inexperienced youth pastors fresh out of seminary.
Let me give you an example of a youth ministry model that actually worked. I observed it with my own eyes. Decades ago, when ole Max was a young man, he helped start a bus ministry at a rural church that was close to an abandoned coal mining town. The small community was a rag tag assemblage of poor folks left behind by the coal corporation, lots of failed marriages, children in the same family with different last names, mean children, lots of crime. So three of us young men at the church decided we should fix up an old bus and go get some of them for church. For a couple of months before we put the bus on the road, we spent Saturdays getting to know the kids and their parents. The first Sunday, we had 30 kids on the bus – none had ever been in a church. They were unruly and nearly tore the church up the first day. The deacons weren’t too excited about that and called a special meeting the next Wednesday to address the matter. It was decided that the older folks in the church would “adopt” kids when they got off the bus the next Sunday, sit with them in Sunday school and church, pray with them, teach them how to sing out of the hymn book … you know, just love on them. Some of the old saints even visited the children through the week. Well, to make this long story short, forty years later three of those boys are now in full-time ministry and several of the children (now adults) and their families are active members of the church serving in various capacities. When one of the bus captains was killed in a tragic farm accident a few years ago, one of the bus kids volunteered to take his job as Sunday School Superintendent. There’s no better youth ministry than old folks loving young folks into the Kingdom of God.
Where do I begin?
1) Music – too loud, and 7 words repeat eleven times. No meaning.
2) Sermon – it appears to be have put together in 10 minutes with no research. Lots of stupid anecdotes (probably made up). Nothing to get your teeth into
3) leaders – they form a clique, they pat each other on the back, they don’t have much in the way of Biblical training/knowledge – even what you would get from being in Bible study
4) Bible Studies – often just sharing one another’s ignorance
5) Sunday School – regurgitate a book they like, aimed at new Christians
6) Missionaries – aren’t brought in to talk about what things are like in the field and why they are being supported. Why aren’t we supporting local Christians in the area instead?
7) Helping widows and orphans and visiting those in prison (absent – focus is on new families)
8) Ignoring those in the church who look after the children during the sermons (let’s sing a few more songs – that will be good for everyone – except for the folk looking after 25 2 year olds)
9) visiting the congregation (missing) I was in a church with 14 paid pastors and in 13 years did not get visited by one of them.
10) Isolated pastors treated like rock stars (I was in a church where the pastor was on a floor that was locked, and you needed a password to use the elevator to get up to see him)
11) Pastors believe they are “masters” telling everyone what to do, but are lazy themselves, not doing anything during the week, or teaching Sunday School
12) Pastors think it is OK to make money on the church
13) Pastors think they should get everything for free (medical care, vacations, cars, etc.)
14) Believe in weird ideas like young earth
Why would anyone go to a church like that?
Then you’re not listening.
Oh, it’s not just the old folks. Let me introduce you to my millennial sister, our Sunday school class at our last church, and the Gen-Xer pastor of said church who told my husband that only “Real” Christians would vote for a certain political candidate (when my husband had just said he’d voted for the other).
David,
15) Congregationers love to put their hands in the air in “praise”, but hands in the dishwater to wash the dishes after fellowship? – not so much – as noted by my husband who then volunteered in the kitchen and skipped the hands in the air affair.
We stopped going during Covid. We watch on-line these days … still. The problem is that there is NOTHING for those my age (59 going on 60). The messages are very good and spirit-filled. However, the commmunity groups have been horrendous! The one we go to now is on-line. It’s poor all the way around and we don’t know what to do! We actually listen to a Calvary church in Florida and love it. We are going to visit it for Easter in person. Here’s what is missing:
1) Today’s churches have groups for “seniors”. This is literally for the blue-hair club ladies and gents that are closer to 80 than 60.
2) Today’s 60 year olds are NOT like the 60 year olds from 10-20 years ago. We work out. We are still working. We love the Lord but we’re not ready to start taking bus tours to the Amish country and stop at a diner for dinner. We look around and see NOTHING for us. NOTHING that brings us together.
3) We see the pastor pushing for the younger generation from the pulpit. That’s ok, but all the “fun” happens there. Not with the older crowd.
4) Ultimately this is all about Christ and not groups of people within the church. However, every member of a family needs to be a part of the family. Not an outcast.
I understand the article and agree with much of it. If I were a pastor of a church, I would strive for groups for all types and ages. Do churches realize that there are single men and woman over 30? What are you doing for them? Do churches realize that there are single moms out there? Single dads? Broken families? …
16) Congregationers applaud predators.
17) Congregationers show up in Court in support of predators NOT victims.
18) Congregationers $upport predators that relocate & startup a new “ministry” AKA scam.
Paul K,
Random thoughts that I promise all tie back to your desire to be in Christian community (a desire I happen to share):
Richard Foster, in his book Celebration of Discipline, talks about submission. He provides the giant caveat that we are called to submit UNLESS it becomes destructive. Sometimes (me speaking, now) a church community is destructive to an individual, and what’s destructive to one congregant might be tolerable to another, kinda like different people have different tolerance levels of alcohol.
Luvvie Ajayi Jones in her book Professional Troublemaker (which is about culture and politics, not the church), talks about the necessity of “speaking truth to power.” But she also acknowledges that not everyone has the social capitol or economic capitol to be able to speak up when needed. And that those who DO regularly speak up get tired and burnt out and discouraged (I’d add) when it seems like they’re the only one speaking up.
Wanting to get along with people who disagree is definitely a learning curve. It also is only successful if both parties want to participate (which I’m sure you know already, just putting it out there 🙂 ).
I have a rather phlegmatic personality. The first time I went back to (a new-to-me) church after a year hiatus, I drove past the building twice before finally pulling into the parking lot. It was a lovely service with wonderfully welcoming people and a homily that spoke to my heart and a (lady) pastor who actually remembered my name when I went forward for communion. I still bawled my eyes out afterwards back in my car because of the release of all the tension I’d been feeling.
I don’t know how many times the 38-year-old Luckyforward was talking to had been hurt by a church. I’m 39 and have three under my belt. Is there a magic number where we’re finally given permission to say “enough?” (A rhetorical question)
And it’s not just me. Every time I get branded the “troublemaker” at a church, it has repercussions for my husband and children, as well. And my in-laws, last time, since they were at the church, too. My six-year-old literally asked me if we change churches every year, like how we get a new annual calendar. Is that healthier than simply not attending church? (Not a rhetorical question, I genuinely want to know.)
Ouch. But it does capture 90% of my issues with the modern evangelical church in the US.
IMHO, the healthy thing to do is to commune and fellowship in a healthy environment.
Church problems are God’s problems, in the end.
No one (honestly seeking) leaves church. They are the church. They may leave a toxic environment.
Shaking dust off the sandals, upward and onward.
I wish there was. I’m no longer Christian so the specifics have changed but once you have these experiences you are changed. I think you are more alert to the problems and more likely to act on them, so having one bad experience and then successive ones actually cumulatively increase the likelihood.
By therapy, support and relaxation you can reduce the physiological arousal but that will never change the fact that you have seen what you have seen and can’t change.
My own solution is my Christian faith collapsed and I now practice a very eclectic witchy pagan faith. This doesn’t require any group involvement. That said I have been better overall in less organised pagan groups locally because they function quite differently – for example the members of a pagan moot locally banned the founder and leader after he said to a woman, ‘Sorry, I was looking at your necklace, not your t*ts’.
Otherwise my original introvert tendency is expanding to positive reclusion and I’m loving it. So my original monastic instincts weren’t wrong either!
The religious elite orchestrated the execution Jesus, with the voices of the mob that chose Barnabas.
The book “Grown and Flown” claims the Boomer generation is an anomaly, with regard to all of human history.
in Christianity, there is no ‘religious elite’;
there are only ‘the servants of the servants of God’
the differences: you will see ‘kindness’ in a way that wants healing, not the brutal treatment of the little ones and the elderly in any ‘Christian’ community
for them what raises up ‘annointed ones’ who brutalize and spread hatred, I have to wonder what IS their ‘God’ like, because this ‘god’ bears no resemblance to Our Lord
some people claim to ‘believe’ and ‘be saved’ and then they turn to monsters to honor and support . . . I have to question their thinking, I cannot know their hearts
Dan,
Dan, thanks for the guilt trip, Dan. You appear to have learned at church, Dan, that people can’t be Christians unless they constantly name-check Jesus, Dan.
How does that add depth? Jesus pays attention and knows who we are.
Wild Honey,
Dan makes a good point and it’s one that isn’t new but has been often disregarded. Here’s what Martin Lloyd-Jones said in his sermons series, Authentic Christianity, in the 1960s –
“The Lord Jesus Christ was the theme of the preaching of the early church. He is the theme of the Gospel of Luke. He is the theme of the Acts of the Apostles. This is the tragic thing that has been forgotten at the present time. ‘What we want’, people say, ‘is the application of his teaching.’ But it is not. What you need is to know Him and to come into a relationship with Him. You do not start with his teaching – you start with Him….Our Lord Himself said to His disciples, ‘Ye shall be witnesses unto me.’ (Acts 1:8)
The mob still shouts “Give us what we want!” … and that ain’t Jesus in a lot of places.
David,
You’ve just described what church isn’t. Much of Christendom needs to call a time out and ask two simple questions: “What does Scripture say Church should look like?” … “Do ‘we’ look like that?”
Lowlandseer,
I think it goes the other way. God initiates the relationship with people. How else to explain the faith of a child?
Many American Christians are caught in the tension between two Scriptures:
“Not forsaking our meeting together [as believers for worship and instruction], as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more [faithfully] as you see the day [of Christ’s return] approaching” (Hebrews 10:25 AMP)
“Come out of her, my people, so that you will not be a partner in her sins” (Revelation 18:4 AMP)
Authoritarian, controlling pastors are sinful … pastors who deliver a canned sermon on Sunday, but don’t minister through the week are sinful … a theology that subordinates Jesus is sinful … enslaving female believers to the “beauty of complementarity” is sinful … worshiping in the flesh, not the Spirit, is sinful … building religious kingdoms, rather than the Kingdom of God on earth is sinful … merchandising the Gospel is sinful … religious form without substance is sinful … doing church without God is sinful … etc.
Assemble or flee?
Wild Honey,
No offence to you intended by my question or how I’ve written my comment….and please don’t feel any obligation to answer. I’m just trying to clarify for myself….
How are you meaning “phlegmatic personality”?
Up Until the first time I read your comment, my understanding of phlegmatic when referring to a person was (copying-and pasting from a definition that describes what I understood it to mean prior to reading your comment):
“(of a person) having an unemotional and stolidly calm disposition.”
After I read your comment, one of the definitions I read for “phlegmatic” appears to be from a personality test (that might or might be reputable or well-known). This particular personality test describes a person with a phlegmatic personality as (copying-and-pasting only part of the definition):
“People with phlegmatic personality are unassuming, agreeable, and intuitive. They possess the ability of “web thinking”, i.e., to see the relationship between many bits of data they collect.
Phlegmatic Skills
They have an incredible skill to gather facts, classify them into different categories, and then see the relationship between seemingly contradicting elements.
Essentially, it is the ability to read between the lines. Phlegmatic men and women don’t do very well at memorizing separate unrelated facts.”
Thx for pointing these out.
Friend,
I agree that Ephesians 2:8-9 applies to all, young and old – by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God, Not of works, lest any man should boast.
If i might…. i think that liturgical churches tend – generally – to do a good deal better on this than many other kinds of churches. Pastoral work is understood differently, as is membership, and the main emphases in services are different as well.
I’m from a liturgical church background (Lutheran, ELCA synod) and wow, did i ever get taken for a ride during my decades inside evangelicaldom.
While i absolutely want to acknowledge that liturgical churches have their own issues, i don’t think the liturgies (etc.) are problematic. At all. (And though i disagree with some things that aren’t even covered in the Apostles and Nicene Creeds, those are 1. bedrock and 2. there’s still room for folks like me, though individual congregations can be more open/closed, depending.)
At any rate, i just wanted to throw this out here per there being *other* templates for church than what’s common in the evangelical world. Since liturgical churches cover everything from birth through death, no age group is (or should be) unwelcome.
My own mother found tremendous support – and many friendships – in her Lutheran congregation after my dad died. There were many other widows there, and she became good friends with a number of them (as well as with some widows who attended other kinds of churches or no church at all). She wasn’t shelved or sideline because of her age or marital status.
OTOH, I’m the same age as Dee, and have never married. It became very painful for me, during the years i was involved in evangelical churches, b/c there was no real place for folks like me – that also applies to those who were widowed and/or divorced. Since most evangelicals don’t appear to view the unmarried (meaning, never married) as fully adult, well…
For some of you, it might work in your favor to investigate other kinds of churches. And it might not, but none of us can know unless we try, right?
Also, FWIW, it might well be that a good soccer club (or something similar) is a better fit for many of us than church.
I know that might not be the kind of comment that folks might expect, except… i have found more of God in other, non-religious groups of people than i ever did inside the walls of evangelical churches. More concern, more compassion + genuine friendships.
None of us are alike, and what works for sime doesn’t necessarily work for all.
Just a thought.
Lowlandseer,
Here are the various words or phrases used in the post (which I’m assuming are also representative of the comments):
justice, Good Friday, Easter, church [a ton of times], Christian, read my Bible, pray, church homes, evangelical, keep the faith growing, sermons and conferences, expressing concern for those who have been forgotten, hold onto their faith, I needed something deeper from the church, meeting spiritual needs, Bible study, etc.
Pardon my impatience, but if you can’t see the theme of Jesus running through the post, then it must also be impossible to see the theme of Jesus running through any number of books of the Bible that don’t explicitly mention him. Take Esther, for example. Or Ruth. Or Job.
Dan’s comment may have been well-intentioned, but smacks of the same legalism as churches I’ve attended that made sure to mention “Jesus” in every single sermon to lull people into a sense of security, but had burnt-out congregations, a reputation of cold-heartedness in the community, and flat-out abusive marriages in leadership.
Thank you, no.
That is a better way to look at it, thank you.
“If you’re not sexually active, you’re a NOBODY.”
Just Christians use the words “getting married” instead of “getting laid”.
Otherwise, what’s the diff?
researcher,
No offense taken, clarification is always good. I had meant more of the former definition you cite, though the second also fits.
Though not so much of the “unemotional” as more of the “it takes a lot to ruffle me.”
With the churches that come under scrutiny here, Is There A Difference?
Headless Unicorn Guy,
““If you’re not sexually active, you’re a NOBODY.”
Just Christians use the words “getting married” instead of “getting laid”.
Otherwise, what’s the diff?”
+++++++++++++++++++
as i see it, the point of the evangelical church institution is to create the ideal teen-ager, no matter what age you are.
it’s about something to prove (to themselves, to others).
perhaps it comes down to christian adults with a need to redeem their own teen-age childhood, and sort of parking there.
perhaps it’s the logical result of the youth group, decades later.
.
.
but i have lots more to say…
“As an older person, what do you not like about the church? As a young person, what do you think about more senior members of your church? Do you participate in activities such as Bible studies with them or do you stay focused on younger interests only?”
++++++++++++++++
i dunno, am i older or a young person?
I’ve opted out of church for a complex cocktail of reasons.
if i were to come up with some sort of thesis statement, it would be that my own personal integrity doesn’t permit it.
(and i was very tired of living in a pepsi commercial)
(with my toes curled backwards)
“BLAME CANADA!
BLAME CANADA!
BEFORE ANYONE CAN THINK OF BLAMING US!”
— South Park, the Movie
Why did I think of Michael Jackson when I read that sentence?
Lowlandseer,
Excellent verse, thanks. Our viewpoints are not very far apart. I still believe that God seeks us more than the other way around. Our grownup minds don’t deserve the credit we often assign… especially in churches with highly specific teachings.
When I was gravely ill and not always conscious, I believe the Spirit was doing the praying.
Ava Aaronson,
That’s a good one! (Also very true – the oldsters are expected to do that.)
Holy Trinity church Brompton (HTB) is known as Hunt the Bride.
There is a scarlet thread woven throughout the fabric of Scripture.
“He is” … https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Btc3g0UaU
Max,
That’s awesome!
Wild Honey,
I recently read the book, “Struggling with Evangelicalism” by Dan Stringer and he makes this really good point that evangelicals (like myself) should try to cultivate “faith stream awareness” (a working knowledge of evangelical history) and “appreciation” (noting the good in the evangelical movement). When I do that, I realize that the American evangelical church is, whether I like it or not, my “mother”, so to speak. It’s how I became a Christian and how I was discipled, for good and bad.
I just feel like, for now, I’m a part of it, and I’m not better than it. So even when I sat through a really tough-to-follow sermon last week and the uncaged drummer really getting into the music and comically overplaying, I’m starting to think, “These are my people,” instead of, “What a bunch of idiots.”
It’s like a realization that this is my family, to a certain limited extent. We’re all in it together in a really weird time in history for American evangelicalism, as it struggles with succumbing to entwinement with political parties and authoritarian control on a number of levels.
This is my own, personal realization, and I’ve also left unhealthy churches and spent a lot of time searching before I found the church I’m currently attending. So, everyone’s going to work it out in their own way. At the moment, I don’t think I’m as separate from American evangelicalism as I previously thought. I am part of it, and I’ll never not be – even if I leave it.
Wild Honey,
Thank you for your clarification. 🙂
Paul K,
Thank you for the thoughtfulness of your response. It sounds as though you are finding peace in the midst of chaos, which I’m glad of.
It’s not necessary for one to be “received”. Communion is as communion does (one should sit out, like we used to). Please beware of sodalities and movements, of the adjunct foreign service, and the hegemony that no longer allows honest clergy and bishops their traditional freedom. The question is the same in every denomination, what material dialectic is the temporary and fashionable child abuse (the designer outlet scandal), really the cloak for?
Max,
He’s achieved the designer outlet scandal accolade so he’s home and dry.
researcher,
I’m of sanguine, phlegmatic and melancholy temperament. Just don’t anyone ever accuse me of being choleric !!!
Wild Honey,
I’m glad it sounds like that. It feels like near-constant anxiety, loneliness (thank God for my wife and kids, a couple good friends, and this blog), and wrestling with my thoughts.
After leaving a couple very controlling Bible-based groups and a much healthier albeit too-controlling-for-me church, it feels as if I’m wearing special goggles that let me see the controlling aspects of churches more so than many of the people in these churches. I’m not omniscient- just saying I notice things other people think are fine that I know are not.
I believe that in the future, a segment of American evangelicalism will descend into authoritarianism more and more to the point they will be living in an alternate reality even more so than they are now. But I also think another, bigger segment is going to confront this type of control and create healthier and safer communities. I don’t know exactly which category the current church I attend will end up, but I know where I want to end up.
A general comment: People who attend toxic churches give of their good reputations, and possibly fund the enterprise. If people pretend to their spouses and children that all is well, they might add to the population of indoctrinated folks. If the church teaches that everybody else is the enemy, whole families will live in fear of the neighbors we are supposed to love. What happens when groups feel surrounded by people who are allegedly of the devil?
We are what we eat—through our eyes and ears as well as our stomachs.
Same here, except that Father Henry isn’t dotty, and he doesn’t have a dog. :p
Most of the older parishioners attend the Saturday Vigil Mass. I’m a boomer, but I feel more comfortable at the Sunday morning Mass, which has a cross-section of ages and ethnicities. I’m grateful for all the young families with lots of kids.
In our area, I think a bigger problem is that the churches have no outreach to single people. I’m married with grown kids, but I have single friends who feel alienated from church because single people are so marginalized.
Congratulations and welcome!
Isn’t that the church that created the Alpha program?
We did Alpha a few years ago. It was OK but kind of weak tea, theologically. The best part was the fellowship with other parishioners. But the program itself…meh. However, Nicky Gumbel comes across as sincere, warm, genuine, and likable. Unlike most celebrity preachers.
Only trust your One True Church and its Anointed Fuehrer in the pulpit.
“We Are United Behind the Visionary!”
Do it to Them before They can Do It to You, of course.
Wild Honey,
It was suggested that Dan was a drive by commenter (not by you) but it was established that he wasn’t and the last time I came across a post by him he mentioned Jesus in it as well. So I will go with “well intentioned” rather than the “legalism” and “cold hearted” you attributed to a stranger.
As the Black Eyed Peas used to sing “Where is the Love?” 🙂
Lowlandseer,
Still on the subject, Johannesburg Oecolampadius delivered a series of sermons on the First Epistle of John, subtitled “A Handbook for the Christian Life”, and he said “Therefore, when it is said here: “Everyone who loves God, who testifies to him, loves the one who is born of him,” so you must understand thereby not only Christ, but everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ. This is the source of love, that God is loved in the neighbor, especially as the commandment of God exhorts us to do so. A second thing that is required in love is that we also really fulfill the righteous commandment, not in spite of the will, but gladly and with great eagerness;”
The earliest Reformers seem to have had a better understanding of this than the modern church. And that is, in no small part due to the fact that, since the Reformation words, phrases and even doctrines have been given different, lesser, (man centred rather than God-centred) meanings.
So anyone can say all the words you mention and still not know Jesus in a life changing, life giving, Spirit enhancing way. They remain “only words”.
I hope you all have a renewed vision of the Risen Christ and the Life giving Spirit and our Glorious Father this Easter.
And pray for Dee, her family, her church and her work.
I honestly don’t know to what extend my church reaches out to single people. Certainly all the liturgical ministries and service organizations welcome single (divorced, widowed) people, as do pray groups and other spirituality programs. My Spanish choir includes a single mother (Mexican) and a divorced grandmother (Dominican), as well as married women.
My parish back in Texas did a full Easter vigil, with seven Old Testament readings and psalms. It had an intermission after the Gospel reading and then lasted another couple of hours, followed by a party on the doorstep until dawn. I miss that. However, the Spanish congregation is mi pueblo, and our Easter Mass is at 1:00 p.m.
The teenbros will go to the Vigil, using their driver’s licenses.
I attend a small Lutheran (ELCA) parish in the town where I live.
I haven’t observed any of the dynamic (old folks leaving) spoken of above.
We have everybody from young couples with little kids to elderly folks using walkers.
We’re an eclectic bunch and we pride ourselves on our diversity.
Call me naive but I made an assumption that the people in these churches believed that Jesus was the head of the church.
Let’s talk about an example. There is 9 Markx that would claim they are following Jesus while at the same time encouraging theology that I believe leads to abusive church discipline. I would assume that the leaders and those who eventually left believed they were following Jesus.
So, maybe you could help me out. Are you assuming that all of those, including the ones who wrote the post, are not aware that Jesus is the head of the church?
Muff Potter,
The same is true of my church. I think this is targeting the larger nondenominational and YRR churches.
Lowlandseer,
It’s swept under the rug…..
The young, restless and reformed get more restless around old people.
True.
As you mentioned, it can provide good fellowship. Those new to the faith, new to our church, seem to enjoy Alpha.
Ava Aaronson,
My husband and I did the Alpha Course at our parish this winter. Most of the participants were long-time parishioners, but we thought the program was very interesting mainly because of the commentary from young people who reminded all of us of our children or grandchildren in different ways.
And as Catholic Gate-Crasher said, we met some new people and got to know other more deeply. It was a nice time.
Lovely.
linda,
Linda, please give traditional Lutheran worship another chance by listening to services – live-streamed and archived – on KFUO’s website. I can’t navigate to the site right now but will return to leave the address. They also have an app. They’ve been my lifeline thru the isolation.
Johannes Buenger,
https://www.kfuo.org/
Two things.
Please pick a name and stick with it. Switching your name around is against the rules. And it is a rule in the link you can click on before you comment.
Also if you want to put up a link like the one in this comment, let folks know where they are going. We don’t want blind links here to which might take people to surprising places. (Nuff said.)
GBTC
Johannes Buenger,
Oh man, I thought I’d posted here before. Sorry. It was so long ago, and the post-it notes of my memory fall off the fridge door alarmingly these days.
Not sure what blind links are, suffice it to say I enjoyed this topic because much to my surprise I’ve left my church-attendance habit behind as I enter my 8th decade.
Church was never more than once a week attendance for me. Very little socializing and rare, rare reliance on a pastor, so it hasn’t been the wrenching event as for many. Then again, as long as I have the music, I know what I believe – about God, life and politics.
I wish you all well. And if the email addtesss I leave here is not the same as yesterday’s, it not because I flout rules nor am trying to be dodgy. Just another post-it that’s slipped off the door. Pax vobiscum!
Johannes Buenger,
Blind links are those where it isn’t obvious where people will wind up. Put in a description before a link like you used.
kfuo.org turns out to be a Christian themed radio station. But it could also be a porn site.
Don’t leave. We just want to make sure folks are not using TWW as a platform to spread bad things.
GuyBehindtheCurtain,
Ok, thanks! No, I wasn’t leaving. Just trying to close the discussion du jour on a positive note.
You report on important stuff here. I’m glad to a part. And I’m more Johannes Buenger than anything, so stick with it, I will.