Jupiter cloud relief from Juno-NASA
The AOG could stand a Juno to help the cloud hanging over them.
“As for the men in power, they are so anxious to establish the myth of infallibility that they do their utmost to ignore truth.” Boris Pasternak
Tonight is our midweek lenten service. We are looking at the term “disconsolate” and how that term applies to us. One definition of the word is:
The definition of disconsolate is someone who cannot be comforted, or is a place or thing that offers no comforts. When a person is very sad and cannot be comforted or made happy, this is an example of someone who would be described as disconsolate.
I was thinking about this word as I’ve approached the mess known as Hillsong and Brian Houston. There is no doubt in my mind that this sort of situation will arise again and again. Evil men who pursue power, sex, and money will always be with us. The only hope is to look to Jesus and why He approached the Cross. This very act told us that we live in a world stuck in sin and that as we deal with our sinfulness, we must be ready to deal with the sin of all humankind.
An incredibly bright and accomplished individual once told me that the Assemblies of God would not have any sex abuse scandal because it was against their values. I was stunned. I also knew that their assessment was wrong.
The Assemblies of God has a sex abuse problem.
It has a money problem, a celebrity problem, an accountability problem, etc.
Here is a post I wrote on the AOG and sex abuse: Sex Abuse: The Assemblies of God and Every Other Existent Denomination, Too #AOGtoo
So I did what I should have done when this person seemed to indicate that the AOG had no “abuse” problems. I visited my good friend, Google. In about 30 seconds, I found the first example of sex abuse in the AOG. A few months back, Ministry Watch posted: Assemblies of God Settles Sexual Abuse Lawsuit Involving Royal Rangers Volunteers
A lawsuit filed in Oregon on behalf of several men who said they were sexually abused as boys while they were members of a scouting-like program sponsored by the Assemblies of God has been settled out of court.
The amount of the settlement was not disclosed.
The case combined two lawsuits filed in 2018 by plaintiffs who said they were sexually abused in the 1980s by two volunteers in the Royal Rangers program at First Assemblies of God Church of Albany, Oregon—Ralph Gantt and Todd Clark—the Springfield (Missouri) News-Leader reported.
Some of the original plaintiffs had already settled with three remaining on the case.
The Royal Rangers program is a ministry for boys in grades K-12 with a mission to “evangelize, equip and empower the next generation of Christlike men and lifelong servant leaders.”
The national denominational office located in Springfield was named as a defendant in the case as well as First Assemblies of God Church of Albany and the Oregon District of the Assemblies of God. The complaint said the organizations should be held responsible for their adult volunteers, who they “selected, approved, trained, supervised and maintained the right of control and/or actual control over.”
Here’s another example. It appears that the AOG has been accused of recirculating sexual predators. IS YOUR CHURCH SAFE?
The Assemblies of God claims to believe in the verbal plenary inspiration of the scriptures (i.e., that it is the actual word of God, literally, and must be followed at all costs). However, when it comes to the scriptural mandates for church leadership (1 Timothy 3:1-7 and Titus 1:6-9), the Assemblies of God throws the scriptures under the bus. The Assemblies of God has a “rehabilitation” program that recirculates sexual offenders back into the ministry under an Assemblies of God credential. And, after they place these offenders back into the ministry, they leave the parishioners in the dark about it. It is difficult to comprehend why anyone, let alone a church, would take on such a legal liability without any apparent benefit in return. It is also difficult to comprehend the hypocrisy. This practice is not only negligent, it is morally reprehensible. It you are also troubled, read on.
How do the Assemblies of God work? Uh oh… Just like the SBC
Read the following carefully. According to Wikipedia:
The Assemblies of God (AG), officially the World Assemblies of God Fellowship, is a group of over 144 autonomous self-governing national groupings of churches that together form the world’s largest Pentecostal denomination.[3]
As an international fellowship, the member denominations are entirely independent and autonomous, but they are united by shared beliefs and history. The Assemblies originated from the Azusa Street Revival of the early 20th century. This revival led to the founding, in 1914, of the Assemblies of God in the United States, the first Finished Work Pentecostaldenomination.[4] Through foreign missionary work and establishing relationships with other Pentecostal churches, the Assemblies of God expanded into a worldwide movement. It was not until 1988 that the world fellowship was formed. As a Pentecostal fellowship, the Assemblies of God believes in the Pentecostal distinctive of baptism with the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues.
Did you catch that? Each church is autonomous and independent. In other words, the AOG doesn’t have to do a dadblamed thing to a congregation that goes off the path. The SBC and the Assemblies of God denominations have found an entirely convenient method to stay out of trouble until they break the law.
Brian Houston was the head of the AOG Australia, which cemented his celebrity.
Todd told me about this today. According to Wikipedia:
He was the national president of Australian Christian Churches, the Australian branch of the Assemblies of God, from 1997 to 2009.
What does this mean? It appears to mean that the AOG in Australia has a serious conflict of interest. In Brian Houston’s initial statement to the 2014 Child Abuse Royal Commission: He stressed the independent nature of his church group:
1 1 . T h e A u s t r a l i a n C h r i s t i a n C h u r c h e s ( A C C ) i s a m o v e m e n t o f independe~t Pentecostal churches who voluntarily choose to associate and cooperate. ACC is an unincorporated association, ABN 58123514361. This movement ~ommenc~d in Australia in 1937. It was then known as the Assemblies of God m Australia (AOG). AOG changed its name to ACC in 2007.
12.Hillsong is an associated member church of the ACC. Hillsong remains self- governing as a separately incorporated legal entity. However it commits to work together with other churches in the movement for the purpose of mutual support and the spread of the Gospel in Australia and in the world.
13.In the ACC, voluntary cooperation is expressed in terms of equality, as self- contained and autonomous Christian churches, uniting for evangelism, unity, fellowship, order, discipline and other purposes. ACC has over 1070 associated churches and over 272,000 congregants.
He claimed that Frank never preached again. We now know this was not true.
34.I immediately informed the individual directors of Hillsong of the~llegation, the admissions made by Frank in my meeting with him, and that Frank’s credentials were suspended. Frank never preached or ministered again at Hillsong after this meeting.
Here is where Houston’s actions become highly questionable. Houston was in charge of the response and did not step aside as he should have. (In my opinion.)
35.As President of the AOG, I convened an emergency meeting of the National Executive of the AOG. The meeting took place at a room lin Syd;ey Airport on 22 December 1999. I informed the National Executive of theAHA !legation a~~inst Frank and that Frank had admitted to me that it was true. It was a very d1ff1cult and emotional time for me. The Executive agreed at that meeting that I should be removed from dealing with this matter including the issue of Frank’s ministry credentials because of my relationship with Frank. The AOG National Executive made the decision to revoke Frank’s credentials. Frank was never again allowed to preach or engage in public ministry at Hillsong or anywhere else.
I am repeating this tweet since it is crucial. Houston still does not call his father’s actions “crimes.” He calls them “sins.” Perhaps in their world, sins are easily forgiven. I have difficulty believing that Houston didn’t know his father was preaching again.
Brian Houston sworn testimony before the Royal Commission of Australia. He stood his father down from preaching and as far as he knows he never preached again. Discovery Documentary provided a clip of his creepy father preaching after he was stood down.@wartwatch @barrybowen pic.twitter.com/8PBkql7PcS
— Todd Wilhelm (@ThouArtTheMan) March 27, 2022
The AOG did not report the crime because they needed a written complaint from the victim. It appears knowing about the complaint is not enough.
The AOG didn’t even respond to the allegations that Hillsong was going off the rails. Their leadership appears inept.
Bumbling ineptitude or intentional foot-dragging in an outrageous attempt by Assembly of God leadership to keep the story of pedophile pastor Frank Houston quiet?
Either way, it’s outrageous.@wartwatch @watchkeep @mmmirele @reachjulieroys pic.twitter.com/tII7ZwwiyO— Todd Wilhelm (@ThouArtTheMan) March 30, 2022
The AOG had been informed of the allegation by a brave pastor in the AOG.
Pastor Barbara Taylor was told of Frank Houston’s sexual abuse of a young boy in 1998. She fought to bring it to light with little support from her male colleagues. Instead, she was made to feel like a troublemaker.@wartwatch @mmmirele @barrybowen pic.twitter.com/g82xgx868R
— Todd Wilhelm (@ThouArtTheMan) March 30, 2022
I believe that the AOG hung out the green light for predators to join their team.
I have been repeatedly asked the following, “What is it in the theology that would allow a pastor to justify the abuse of a child?” There is nothing in Scripture that would allow anyone to justify predatory behavior on the part of pastors and other church workers. Instead, let’s flip it around. What is it in an organization that attracts these predators?
I’m going to say something rather harsh. I do not believe that the predators are actually Christians. They are evil men and women who see an opportunity to have access to their victims of choice. Frankly, our Christian lingo is easily acquired. The sermons aren’t so hard. They can get free sermons from many sources. They accept positions that pay a decent living (some pay exorbitant, get rich salaries). They are honored as “men and women of the cloth.”
Heck, they are even worthy of double honor. I used to hear this from the Sovereign Grace and some SBCpastors. Look at what 1Timothy 5:17 says:
The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
Think about it. A predatory creep looks at the church and sees a gold mine. Good salary, easy vocabulary, double honor, easy sermon acquisition, no requirement for a ministerial degree, and trusting people who will blow off some “extracurricular” abuse because it couldn’t be real. What a gig! To top it off, many of these churches have zero accountability to any local elders. If they do, elder groups are often convened by the pastor, who makes sure they are yes men.
Finally, all of these churches are independent, so there is virtually no support from the denomination. I still remember a stupid statement from an Anglican pastor who asked, “Why didn’t you go to the denomination?” (What are they teaching in seminaries these days? )It was an SBC church, and there was NO appeal. It looks like the same is true for the AOG.
I bet that there are plenty of predators in the Assemblies of God, Hillsong, the SBC, etc. Sadly, in this case, we must turn to law enforcement to convict these criminals. I hope Brian Houston goes to prison, but I am not holding my breath.
#AOGshame #AOGtoo #disconsolate #John3:16
1
“How do the Assemblies of God work? Uh oh… Just like the SBC”
To enjoy the privilege of being affiliated with SBC, member churches send money annually to the parent organization in support of its “Cooperative Program” (CP). Originally designed to fund foreign and home mission efforts, the CP has a huge bank account … a lot of those funds ($60 million per year) are now funneled to finance the church planting (aka reformed theology planting) program. (the New Calvinists now control all SBC entities)
Each SBC member church essentially becomes a part of the collective effort to take the Gospel around the world … a noble idea, but David Platt gutted the international mission program by recalling 1,000 foreign missionaries a few years ago. The bigger the church, the more money the parent SBC collects from them … thus, the SBC elite would be slow to discipline a cash cow unless they decided the situation was really, really bad.
I suspect AOG operates the same way. I can think of one huge AOG church which has had Mark Driscoll there to speak several times. You would think the parent organization wouldn’t think much of that given Driscoll’s shameful background, but as far as I know, the church has not even received a slap on the hand.
“all of these churches are independent, so there is virtually no support from the denomination”
Autonomous to either do the right thing or wrong thing, I suppose. If ultimate authority and church governance are in the hands of a Biblically-unqualified “pastor” and a yes-man elder board, it’s an accident waiting to happen … and they happen all the time! Church congregations, which have no say under elder-rule, are then left wondering “What happened?!” (for example, Willow Creek, Mars Hill, Hillsong, etc. etc.)
Re: “What is it in the theology that would allow a pastor to justify the abuse of a child?”
Perhaps an alternative question, or an alternative way of thinking about the problem, would be to ask, “What is it in the theology that would allow christian leaders to tolerate child abuse (and other forms of abuse of flock) on the part of fellow leaders?”
I don’t think it’s hard to find things in the theology that would do this. One could imagine that an ‘anointed’ preacher who — in the judgment of onlookers — is functioning as an instrument of God for the salvation of sinners might be allowed to pursue ‘other interests’ as a regrettable but acceptable cost of the good he is regarded to be accomplishing. If a few people’s lives are ruined because of this, that might be regarded to be a small price to pay for the sake of the infinite benefit that is reckoned to flow to many others who are thought to be saved through the predators’ ministries.
This thought is offered not in defense of this way of thinking, if it is indeed present among higher-ups, but as an hypothesis for what might be at work in the thinking of leaders who seem to be little concerned about the harms that some of peers are causing.
Samuel Conner,
The good outweighed the bad … too big to fail … “God-called”, etc. arguments won’t sell in Heaven and shouldn’t on Earth.
I had something amusing happen in church this evening. The pastor brought up the Mars HIll Rise and Fall podcasts and also Hillsong. He told the class that they wouldn’t believe what’s happening out there!
“Re: “What is it in the theology that would allow a pastor to justify the abuse of a child?”
Perhaps an alternative question, or an alternative way of thinking about the problem, would be to ask, “What is it in the theology that would allow christian leaders to tolerate child abuse (and other forms of abuse of flock) on the part of fellow leaders?””
There is NO ‘Christian’ theology that permits the sin of ‘ommission’ when by NOT responding ethically to a wrong being done is seen as a sin as well as doing the wrong oneself. . . .
the ‘looking the other way’ won’t pass the smell test on Judgment Day, nope.
‘excusing’ by ‘looking the other way’ also convicts the excuser of irresponsibility in that, had the person responded to STOP the abuse, the suffering of an innocent would have been prevented . . .
‘looking away’ from child sexual abuse is a great sin before the God Who holds innocent children dear to Himself as members of the Kingdom of Heaven – such a ‘sin of ommission’ is judged to be ‘complicit’ in the torment of the innocent and is unexcusable in ANY ‘Christian’ theology
Next time you see pastor, slip him a note: thewartburgwatch.com 🙂
Therein lies a problem with much of the church. It is true that the average churchgoer has little idea what’s happening out there! On one hand, it’s a good thing that they are insulated from the dark side of the American church … on the other hand, they need to be informed and warned that the devil goes to church, too … even appearing in the pulpit as an angel of light.
And this from the post: “What is it in an organization that attracts these predators?”
These are both spot on.
Combine the “I’m The Man Pastor” with the “Yes, you are the man!” Yes-Men and … church becomes a Hunting Ground for predators.
Formulaic. It’s a culture. Predators thrive while those Vulnerable struggle to survive.
The Hillsong & Assemblies of God (ACC) Accountability channel just posted a nine-minute video of Terry Crist first talking about joining Hillsong in 2016 and then leaving in 2022.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cu73Diih-SQ
Basically, God called Terry to join Hillsong in 2016, with a “word” from God that was only second to God telling Terry to marry his wife Judith. And now we’re six years later. Makes you wonder…
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
It’s the “Driscoll who?” phenomenon breaking out across the Hillsong empire. When Driscoll fell, Mars Hill satellite ministers and ministries began to scramble to distance themselves from him. The same thing happened at Willowcreek … “Hybels who?” And at Harvest Chapel … “MacDonald who?” … etc. etc.
“God called me here” became “God changed His mind”.
Satan and his minions know when the hedge of protection is down.
IOW, the spokesperson for God is a spokesperson for themself and making up the part about “God told me”. Hubris in plain sight. And lying.
“God told me” is a risky, most often whack-a-doodle thing to say.
Yes. The post notes what happens over time with a predator in the pulpit. It becomes church culture.
The pulpit predator not only has left a trail of victims, he has also spawned a multitude of predators that each also leaves behind a trail of even more victims. In this case, across the globe. A pulpit predator breeds predation exponentially.
From the OP: “Each church is autonomous and independent.”
When I worked at a community college, we were part of a larger accrediting body. An educational “denomination,” if you will. Each college was autonomous and independent, but each also agreed to be held to certain standards by the accrediting body, to be reviewed on a regular basis by the accrediting body, and to participate in reviews of other colleges.
I was part of the (large) team that prepared for an accreditation visit, once. As the college’s liaison officer told people who complained about having to open ourselves up to outsiders’ critiques, “We agree to be held to high standards by other educational bodies so that government bureaucrats who don’t know the first thing about education don’t come in here and start trying to tell us what to do” (or something to that effect).
It was taken very seriously all around, and schools were actually put on probation (as John MacArther is aware), or even lost accreditation. It included reviews of finances, whether schools were notifying students of crimes committed on or near campus, and whether schools were reviewing their own data to make sure they were accomplishing their stated goals and missions.
Schools didn’t have to agree to accreditation. It just meant they would not receive federal dollars in the form of federal student financial aid.
I think something like this system would be useful for churches. Don’t get accredited, don’t get tax-exempt status.
It is not a perfect system, by any means. But at least it makes it a little more difficult for predators.
“ I do not believe that the predators are actually Christians.”
Dee,
I agree with you.
doubleplusunperson.
Pay to Play?
“ I do not believe that the predators are actually Christians.”
In doing so, we’re playing right into the predators’ hands.
Like the Chewbacca Defense, this shifts all the focus and energy into Theology, Soteriology, and other Who’s In/Who’s Out Ology-ologies. And while the “DIE, HERETIC!” Theological fight is on, the predator slips out the back door scot-free. Laughing all the way.
You’re over-spiritualizing again.
Time and time again, humans have shown themselves capable of some pretty major heights of evil all on their lonesome. And sniffing around for The Devil can act as a misdirection.
And should be approached with the same caution as “Please Castrate Me”.
(Unless you’re RCC, at which point the source becomes “Mary appeared and told me…” Marian Apparition claims are the characteristically-Catholic way to go off the deep end.)
“WE THANK THEE, LOOOOOOORD, THAT WE ARE NOTHING LIKE…”
Totally for this in terms of standards.
But apologies in advance this waves a red flag for me.
In terms of size and compliance this sounds very much like the RC church (where dioceses as individual legal entities are part of a corporation under a CEO and there is a whole code of canon law to adhere to). It was precisely this structure which enabled abusers to be shuffled round and enabled on an international scale. it’s also the structure in which all of the bishops without exception facilitated and covered up crime on a policy level because the pope said so.
I’m sure you would agree that it’s the standards and rigour that make college accreditation work. It’s unfortunately one aspect of secular society which churches borrow because it sounds reassuring but can go horribly wrong in the hands of any church person motivated by the grift.
Actually that should be treated with the same caution, since just as the lay faithful use contraception surely nobody with eyes to see can seriously believe the clergy are celibate. Richard Sipe estimated 5% of RC priests are actually celibate life long.
Like the visions it’s another incredible marvel that draws in the credulous.
Max,
There’s surely a tension between “what ought to be” and “what is.”
My concern is the possibility that features of mainstream Evangelical theology, particularly the strong preoccupation with ‘avoidance of post-mortem consequences’, can lead to comparative lack of concern with pre-mortem evils that arise in the context of “ministry.” And one could even weaponize Paul’s remarks in II Cor 4 that light and momentary afflictions of this present life are not worthy to be compared with post-mortem glory to be revealed. They aren’t comparable to the conventional understanding of post-mortem punishments, either. I think this concern has some “bite” to it.
It’s not hard to see this in other areas. There’s a famous quote by J MacA that “global warming” is not a concern for him since, on his understanding of the texts, the earth will ultimately be dissolved in a much hotter fire.
I think this may be part of the answer to Dee’s question, “What is it in the theology” that leads to what we are seeing in the churches.
I agree it’s a common trap.
However, the claim being a Christian means different things, and might be worth considering.
Is the guy lying about what he believes, just totally faking faith through his life and “ministry”?
Do his actions disqualify him from membership in his Christian group?
The third question is what God thinks, and we should steer clear of proclaiming that.
And Scripture agrees with both of you:
“Have you forgotten that the Kingdom of God will never belong to the wicked? Don’t be under any illusion — neither the impure, the idolater or the adulterer; neither the effeminate, the pervert or the thief; neither the swindler, the drunkard, the foul-mouthed or the rapacious shall have any share in the Kingdom of God. And such men, remember, WERE some of you! But you have cleansed yourselves from all that, you have been made whole in spirit, you have been justified before God in the name of the Lord Jesus and in his very Spirit.” (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Phillips)
Agreed. It’s sometimes difficult to discern whether it’s the world, the flesh, or the devil at work. All have a hand in the various forms of wickedness on earth. Men are quite adept at depravity before the devil ever gets involved.
I have no idea who Richard Sipe is, but his claim is completely ridiculous.
I don’t know which is worst … for the church to over-spiritualize or under-spiritualize … for it to get out there on the wacky fringe or sit lifeless.
Max,
That seems clear, but it leaves out the repentance cycle of lather, rinse, and repeat. What if they come back all sinceeeeere?
The only “standards” for affiliation with SBC are to adhere to the denomination’s statement of belief (The Baptist Faith and Message,2000 revision) and to agree to financially support SBC missions and ministries. No “accreditation” otherwise and no oversight by the national organization. The church is autonomous and independent to govern itself. State and national convention agencies do not step in unless a church violates some condition of belief and practice set forth in the BFM2000 (e.g., the god-awful sin of allowing a woman to preach!). I suspect AOG has similar requirements for membership, except they don’t enslave female believers like the SBC.
In my humble (but accurate) opinion, too many men of the cloth are restored to the pulpit without ever demonstrating the “fruit of repentance”:
“Produce fruit that is consistent with repentance, demonstrating new behavior that proves a change of heart, and a conscious decision to turn away from sin” (Matthew 3:7-10).
Too many of these rascals have been restored to ministry within a few months following their transgression(s). Oh, they may have had an outward show of crying without tears and faking humility, but no true repentance. Such fruit of repentance is still bad fruit. It’s my position that a pastor who has disqualified himself from ministry should remain so. There are no examples in Scripture of a pastor committing immoral sin being restored to the pulpit. Forgive him if he genuinely repents? Certainly. Restore him to the pulpit? Absolutely not!
They sincerely want to make mortgage payments on their mansions. What else are they going to do for a living? It’s so easy and prosperous to fleece the flock. Wolves in sheep’s clothing? Nah, the wolves have found it better do dress in shepherd’s clothing.
He was an expert on clerical sexuality and clerical abuse, who got interested because he noticed that every one of his assignments at Collegeville was to replace a monk who had had to be removed because of abuse.
His claim actually isn’t ridiculous and although he has died his website is still up and is a good source.
Celibacy, incidentally, means no sexual activity at all. None.
The wonder is that 5% do it.
Headless Unicorn Guy on Thu Mar 31, 2022 at 02:11 AM said:/b>
!
As one guy I used to know put it (when the Big Screaming Fit was about Gay Priests):
“Vow of Celibacy applies to both Gay and Straight.”
Many years ago on the now-defunct Internet Monk blog, Martha of Ireland did a guest post on sex-abuse scandals among Irish Catholic priests. She said the pressure in Irish culture to have a family member in the Church (Priest, Monk, or Nun) meant a lot of priests being ordained who just weren’t cut out for the position. Sex scandals waiting to happen.
This echoes a problem in the Middle Ages before the Protestant Reformation, where the clergy served as a dumping ground for minor sons of Nobles who could not inherit and could not be allowed to breed and sire a cadet branch of the Great House of Whatever.
Like so many other things, in the words of the prophet Moody Blues it is “A Question of Balance”.
And if the mainstream is out-of-balance in one direction, Christians just HAVE to be out-of-balance in the other direction. Often more out-of-balance than Those Filthy Heathen Over There. If not “More Out-of-Balance Than Thou.”
Max,
They’re not Wolves.
They’re feral (if not rabid) junkyard dogs.
Wolves have more Class than that.
In my experience, NOBODY is as SINCERE as a Sociopath.
Until the instant you Outlive Your Usefulness.
What do you think that Rabbi from Tarsus meant when he penned “Satan himself can transform himself to appear as an Angel of Light”?
Nonsense. Utter, absolute nonsense.
Cradle Catholic here. I’ve been Catholic for 70 years. I’ve lived in multiple states. I’ve known countless priests. And I say this is nonsense.
For one thing, there is no possible way any researcher could know something like this. For another, his credentials don’t make him infallible. My husband has a PhD in Byzantine history from Harvard University, but he would be the first to tell you that he is far from an infallible authority on Byzantine history. Or even a fallible one. Scholarship doesn’t work that way.
Secondly, from your description, it sounds as if this dude was basically self-appointed and self-anointed as an “expert.” Real scholars don’t run sensationalistic websites.
Thirdly, if abuse is the topic, the independent John Jay Institute of Criminal Justice found that 4% of US Catholic priests had been credibly accused of sex abuse over a 40-year period. Four percent is 4% too many, and even one case is horrific, but nonetheless 4% falls far short of the rampant incidence you are insinuating.
Lastly, the claim that celibacy is nearly impossible is an anti-Catholic Protestant canard which runs contrary to Scripture itself. Take it up with Jesus and St Paul.
..the church becomes Putin’s Kremlin.
Muslim fka Dee Holmes wrote ;Basically, God called Terry to join Hillsong in 2016, with a “word” from God that was only second to God telling Terry to marry his wife Judith. And now we’re six years later. Makes you wonder…
Max wrote: “God called me here” became “God changed His mind”
Ava Aaronson wrote: “God told me” is a risky, most often whack-a-doodle thing to say.
I chanced to look up one Arthur Blessitt— famous for traveling the world carrying a cross. Then I saw that God apparently changed his mind about who He told Arthur his wife should be.
Eventually, in the midst of a comment stream full of “let he who is without sin” “he’s only human” “stop judging” “God chose him” “mui mucho souls saved” etc
I found this gem of a comment;
“
If a man leaves his wife to marry another man would that evoke a “let him who is without sin” response? If a man leaves his wife and enters a relationship with his own daughter, would that evoke a “nobody is perfect” response? What a about an english sheepdog? A man of God can’t be expected to get everything right can he? Just one time I’d like a preacher to say that God called him to leave his wife of 30 years to marry a homely woman of 85. It would at least be original. This finding God’s will with a girl 20 years younger than yourself just gets old after a while. What a sad story. It truly breaks my heart. Hebrews says that some where sawn asunder for the sake of this gospel. None of them ever had to not sleep with their dream date though. God help us.”
Now there’s a tale of a proud institution in the shape of the Irish Catholic church going straight from literally having legislators at the bishops’beck and call to falling flat on its face, largely through its own doing.
And they even exported so many problems… So many of the priests who appear on Bishop Accountability for abuse in the US were ordained in Ireland.
Our parish priest years ago (I am from England) was a priest of an Irish diocese and I kept telling our mother there must be something wrong with him. And then the police came… and of course he was one who had abused in Ireland and joined the many priests shuffled off elsewhere.
Catholic Gate-Crasher on Thu Mar 31, 2022 at 09:40 AM said:
Richard Sipe
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sipe
While I am continuing to think about comments on the last threads about Christian music in general I will add the following comments to what was all ready written by others:
Been a fan of Michael Card since I was a teenager, a long time ago, for all of the reasons already mentioned.
Been a fan of Steve Taylor for just as long too. You have to give him credit. A long time before this blog was started he wrote a song called “I Manipulate” which he said in interviews is about Bill Gothard. He was marketing a warning a long time before Dee was.
About the absolute pile which is Hillsong Music, my thoughts go away from us and what we like and to the actual supposed focus of our “worship music.” If we only sing and listen to this music because we like it, then it is no different from listening to any other music out there singing about everything else but Jesus Christ. And while I am not issuing a blanket condemnation about that, the whole thing about worship, of any kind, with or without music in any style, is that GOD IS SUPPOSE TO LIKE IT! I cannot imagine that God enjoys music written by self-absolved artists who are doing it for fortune and fame and to please people to that extent. IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT GOD! If it is not, then why do we call it worship? I despise Hillsong and Bethel Music for this reason. It takes Worship and Monetizes and Mammonizes and Man-centertizes it. This has to be an abomination to God. Much better to just make performance music which does not pretend to be something it is not. It comes down to hypocrisy, which we know Jesus hated? So how can Jesus enjoy such supposed worship?
“I Manipulate” by Steve Taylor released in 1985, 37 years ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKlZ7U67Uio
John,
Agreed that belonging to a more hierarchical denomination is no guarantee, and the RCC scandals are usually my example when someone claims this.
I would perhaps point out, that at least in terms of accreditation in higher education, following the law is part and parcel. In my seven years there (granted, it was only one college), I knew one (adjunct) professor let go for a misdemeanor conviction, a staff member for what I believe was a FERPA violation, one staff and one professor for claiming sick time when they were actually at their other job, and every single employee had to pass a background check. Every employee was also considered a mandated reporter, whether or not they interacted with students or minors.
I think it helped that, as an institution (though there were exceptions with some individuals), they did not consider themselves to be above the law. The same cannot be said of many religious organizations, Christian or otherwise.
Headless Unicorn Guy,
Sobering thought. But when one sees the results, it is real.
True. Celibacy better be possible. Partners die, become ill, go off to war, etc. There are many reasons why celibacy occurs in life. Or, celibacy is chosen. Or, one hasn’t yet met their partner.
Hopefully, one doesn’t live one’s life between one’s legs. Life is a complex journey full of a variety of many experiences and a variety of many important relationships.
Albert of Brandenburg, cardinal archbishop of Mainz, was one of those minor sons. His older brother Joachim became the elector of Brandenburg. It was Albert who was entrusted with raising money for the renovation of St. Peter’s and he brought in Johann Tetzel to do the preaching. Which led to a certain 95 Theses and you all know the rest.
Albert’s Wikipedia doesn’t go into the seedy (TRULY seedy) side of the machinations of how he got Mainz, but his older brother Joachim’s does. I’m not going to repeat it, you can look it up here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joachim_I_Nestor,_Elector_of_Brandenburg Be sure to have a piece of paper so you can mark out who got what when, and what they had to pay for it.
So what? Am I supposed to be intimidated? I’ve spent most of my adult life in very intimate contact with a Harvard PhD. I met him when I myself was a student at Harvard Divinity School. I know what a crock academia is. I am un-intimidatable.
The *independent* John Jay Institute of Criminal Justice *twice* conducted independent in-depth studies of clerical sex abuse among Catholic clergy. These *independent* studies were commissioned by the US bishops. I’m the first to criticize our feckless bishops, but seriously…has ANY other denomination done this? Or anything even remotely close? (We may not be a model of transparency — far, far from it — but, in the clean-up department, *nowadays* at least, we beat the blazes out of pretty much every other church out there.)
Both times they studied the issue, the John Jay Institute reached similar findings: Roughly 4% of Catholic priests were “credibly accused” of sex abuse over a 40-year period.
If you don’t believe me, look it up. It’s a matter of public record — unlike most of the user-generated nonsense on Wikipedia. (BTW, you *do* know that no respectable professor will accept Wikipedia as a scholarly source from students, right? Ever wonder why that is?)
I do not condone the 4% incidence of sex abuse. Please don’t even go there. But it is far from the picture of rampant depravity John has presented.
This Know-Nothing Anti-Catholic insanity has to stop.
And oh yeah…I defy *anyone* here to present credible, peer-reviewed evidence that only 4% of Catholic priests are celibate. That is an insane claim, unprovable and absurd on its face.
And again, such a claim is also a slap in the faces of Our Lord and St Paul, both of whom praised celibacy. If you really think that celibacy — which both Jesus and Paul endorsed — is darned nigh impossible, then you are flatly contradicting the Scriptures.
Do you really want to go there?
Thank you!!!!
Mr. Jesperson,
I was studying the theology of Christian Worship at a theological college in Melbourne (Australia) last year. We were having a big discussion about whether Hillsong or Bethel music should be played in churches. That broadened into a larger discussion about identifying inappropriate song lyrics, even from traditional hymns.
Of course I then must boast… I did the mike drop. “Whatever decisions you make about music, you can’t go wrong with singing Psalms”.
The psalms were the song book of the old covenant and the new covenant church.
The Free Church of Scotland released an updated version of the metrical psalms in 2003. You can find them here: https://freechurch.org/praise-resources/#singpsalm
Re: Sipe and Celibacy.
I’m not sure what study Sipe did to assess celibacy. But his 1990 study showed that 50% of Catholic Priests were involved in a sexual relationship.
It therefore became necessary for many priests to have a code of silence to cover this up. But the culture of silence that developed also covered up actively homosexual priests as well as pedophiles.
How long has this code of silence been in place in the Catholic Church? I wouldn’t be surprised if it has been there for over 1000 years.
Psalm 137 would be a bit tricky to explain, especially to young children.
In the meantime a mockingbird is busily singing its heart out at 11:30pm just outside my place.
Church leaders who took a vow of celibacy are sexually active, x 50%, apparently. Secret sex.
Church leaders, in other denoms, take a vow of faithfulness to their spouse in marriage OR take a vow to be celibate when not married, and are true to their vows, at what %? What are their secret sex numbers?
It’s a comparison of cheaters, liars, and fakes among church leaders across denominations.
Celibate priests aren’t the only ones who are posers. Church leadership secret sex is a thing.
Everyone is human? How about finding a different line of work?
Professional counselors lose their license if they get involved with clients. Even secular vocations have strict laws and consequences applicable in their field of work.
But church leadership is the professional catchall for anything goes?
Bartenders, truck drivers, hedge fund managers, etc. can sleep with whomever. Adults.
That’s at any one time and only talking about being in a relationship not celibacy. The 5% celibate estimate is on his website and is the priests who actually achieve celibacy (no sexual activity at all, not even masturbation) over their ministerial career.
I very politely pointed you to a website of a professional researcher who is very well placed after decades of research as well as anecdotal evidence from interviews to describe a clear pattern of behaviour which is different from what the church says is happening.
You decided it was nonsense without knowing who Sipe was and without reading the website (which incidentally is calm and concise – the reason you think it is sensational is it goes against the establishment narrative, which, incidentally is fake).
I can point you to other online resources about the reality of priesthood, which are strikingly similar to the misconduct described here in other churches.
I don’t know why you’ve decided to relate what I said to clerical child sexual abuse – I didn’t mention it.
Oh and by the way – cradle Catholic here and former monk. Former monks are always the best sources for anti Catholic facts.
Yes it keeps striking me how churchgoers actually aren’t treated like adults at all. The psychological trap is it attracts people who want it that way!
Ok. Child of God, our Father in Heaven.
However, in church? Pastors and priests are neither God nor our fathers nor parents, nor in any way superior.
Living a moral lifestyle is part of what makes a church leader, a leader… following after Jesus.
All of Jesus’ followers are obliged to live just and moral lives.
Take the public title and pay of a leader? Live out the commitment with public scrutiny.
Call oneself a follower of Christ? Live it or leave it.
In many cases, sin legally falls under civil liberty. We can have at it if we so choose. Why lie about it? Why the con, the scam, the snake oil?
Better honest promiscuity than lying clergy.
Yes!
Now that will preach, Ava! But I doubt you find a pulpit in America being that bold this Sunday. That’s the kind of preachin’ which will empty a church … but that might be a good place to start over in an attempt to do it right.
A disturbing report in this morning’s news: A REPORT OF CHILD ABUSE IS MADE EVERY 10 SECONDS IN THE UNITED STATES
God help us.
John,
Useful in context, thanks. Given the TWW readership, though, I’d like to reinforce that promiscuity and lying clergy are not at opposite ends of any spectrum, nor are they at the same end.
Some TWW folks grew up in families or congregations where the definition of promiscuity included “thinking about holding hands before marriage.” This can be damaging to kids with an innocent passing crush, and young adults who would in fact like to kiss and hug, but who are terrified of Mom, Dad, and Hell.
Most people are capable of forming responsible romantic attachments sometime during adulthood. Wise parents calmly establish standards, keep communication open, and both model and praise good decision-making.
Your comment brings to mind Jesus’ sayings about whitewashed tombs, salt that has lost its savor, and the call to be a light on a hill.
I suppose that one could repurpose Jesus’ saying about hiding a light under a basket — conversely to that saying, it is, for the sake of public propriety, better to conceal one’s transgressions than to openly flaunt them and lead everyone else astray too. Of course, if that is how one wants to live, it would be even better to not aspire to lead others at all.
And, of course, there is the OT assertion, in a very different context, that YHWH had set His face against an exploitive religious leadership class that was feeding itself on the flock that it was supposed to shepherd on YHWH’s behalf.
The fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom, but there seems to be no fear of YHWH in these people. Are they assuming that God’s grace covers them, or that “YHWH does not see?”, or are they “functional atheists” who happen to have found agreeable forms of employment and enjoyment, sort of like Eli’s sons?
Because you have to Virtue-Signal your Holier-than-Thou Morality and Respectability.
Isn’t this called “Arrested Development”?
Or “Peter Pan Syndrome”?
On celibacy
The Bible indicates it’s good.
On marriage
The Bible says it’s good.
On abuse
Neither marriage or celibacy cures pedophilia.
Like The Secret Sip among Dry Denominations.
(Remember Jerry Falwell and his “Baptist Wine”? Or the Vanilla Extract of other accounts?)
Actually, what you say is an anti-Protestant canard which runs contrary to Scripture itself. The CCC recognises that celibacy may not be for all and that for a variety of reasons; – 915-916, 1579-1580, 2348-2350.
The first Reformed (i.e. Protestant)Confession in 1523 (Zwingli’s Sixty-Seven Articles) puts the matter succinctly –
“28 Everything which God permits or which is not forbidden, is lawful. From this we learn that it is proper for everyone to marry.
29 That all those whom we call “spiritual” sin when, having discovered that God did not grant them the ability to remain chaste, they, nonetheless, do not protect themselves through marriage.
30 Those who take a vow of chastity childishly or foolishly undertake too much. We learn from this that anyone who accepts such vows, does injustice to good people.”
Catholic Gate-Crasher on Thu Mar 31, 2022 at 10:40 PM said:
Only posted who he was since you never heard of him.
C. Gate-Crasher,
“Bridget:
Catholic Gate-Crasher on Thu Mar 31, 2022 at 09:40 AM said:
Richard Sipe
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Sipe
So what? Am I supposed to be intimidated? ”
Maybe Bridget was trying to help you?
(just a thought)
Bridget – also because of his credibility, no?
The Grand Jury findings in my state (several years ago now) on sexual abuse in a whole bunch of dioceses and individual parishes is horrifying, not least b/c much of it is very recent and being perpetrated by young priests who were ordained after the initial stories on sexual abuse in the US RCC broke.
Their superiors did what was done in the past, reshuffling them from parish to parish when abuse claims arose.
Sadly, some priests that i knew and thought of quite highly when i was in my late teens-early 20s (in the early-mid 70s) have been credibly accused of sexual abuse and/or refusing to report on it.
The thing is, while I’m not Catholic, i spent years around Caatholic charismatics back in the early 70s, very much including priests and other religious. I even lived in a small convent for over a year. This was in the highly open, ecumenical days that came after Vatican II, and I’m very grateful to this day for the time i spent among both laypeople like myself + religious.
So please believe me when i say that I’m not mentioning anything re. sexual abuse within the RCC to be anti-Catholic. Sexual abuse of kids is a thing in *all* professions where pedophiles have access to children, whether the predators are clergy (of every religion), teachers, coaches and so many others in positions of trust. This cuts across *all* denominational and religious lines. Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, etc. etc. etc. Some rabbis and teachers in very closed communities in the ultra-Orthodox (Jewish) world in this country as well.
Further context: the Jerry Sandusky scandal and trial were and are local news where i live. He abused several boys from my county. The fallout from the investigation led to one of the bravest and most credible witnesses, Mike McQueary, losing his job, while the higher-ups who enabled Sandusky… even those who were fired got *all* the benefits from their former positions. Graham Spanier, the former president of PSU who enabled at the highest level, certainly did. The numbers – just how much these people got and still get – are sickening for many reasons. One of them is that the amounts are far more than what any lower middle class person can ever hope to earn, let alone those who are below the poverty level.
As for figures regarding celibacy, it does seem like a stretch to assume that anyone who takes a vow of celibacy will *never* break it at some point in their lifetimes, in some way. Better to focus on how people deal with that in their own lives, i think, than get angry over one researcher’s studies – but YMMV.
So.
Tag on my last: i also had a sibling who converted to Catholicism, as well as a niece, her husband, and a great-niece who are Catholic. I care about all of them and don’t wish in any way for them not to be Catholic, though i do hope that their views will become a bit more “liberal” on a lot of things.
However, i truly doubt that will happen. And flawed as i am – as we all are – i have to try and just care for and love them as they are. They’re all the family i have left in this world.
Not all of us Protestants are either anti-Catholic or prone to believing in or perpetrating distortions or smears regarding Catholics. (By the bye, I was raised Lutheran and am a revert, after many decades within evangelicalism. It’s a far better, healthier outlook on things, at least for me, and communion is central, as opposed to preaching.)
numo on Fri Apr 01, 2022 at 01:01 PM said:
Bridget – also because of his credibility, no?
I’d say he has vast, hands-on credibility.
It’s not just sexual abuse of kids, though. There are plenty of cases of abuse (sexual and other) of adults as well. It is not confined(.) Abuse of power (as you describe) is also a thing!
Good to hear from you. I hope you are well and happy.
Bridget – ***exactly.**** (it was, after all, a rhetorical question.)
I’ve seen it with teachers and ternage students – sometimes multiple students at the the same time.
Any abuse of powrr, in any form, is abuse. As many pf us have experienced as adults in many, many churches.
Multiple students, one teacher (at the same time).
A former editor that i worked for: same, but with 7th-8th grade girls. (I only recently found out. He was a teacher, way back.)
Have also seen “pastors” literally extort money from church members – for house payments.
It was about as subtle as the Mafia version of same.
When did I say celibacy was for all? Good grief, what a strawman. Please. Seriously. If celibacy were for all, the human race would go extinct.
I’m a Catholic. Not a Shaker.
Can’t we please engage what people actually *say*?
Thanks in advance!
When my college fellowship held a retreat at a convent, we women slept in one big room. At bedtime, when all of us were changing into our nighties, a priest walked in without knocking.
He looked all embarrassed, and apologized, and backed away, and we all laughed it off, naive young things that we were. His excuse: “Oh, I was looking for someone.”
I’m sure he was.
Can we move on from the celibacy thing? I’m holding one comment.
Do y’all remember Perry Stone – the “nasty perv” pastor, Cleveland, Tennessee??? Dee did a post about him.
Well, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation is going after him.
Dee – certainly.
It’s cartied over from a prior thread.
Decades ago…
Nancy2(aka Kevlar) wrote:
“Do y’all remember Perry Stone – the “nasty perv” pastor, Cleveland, Tennessee??? Dee did a post about him.
Well, the Tennessee Bureau of Investigation is going after him.”
Well that’s just a gall-danged shame.
He sure could preach a Holy Ghost revival!
It’s prolly just cuz’ Satan’s tryin’ to get him off the air!
Ken F (aka Tweed),
🙂
After his Ministry(TM) paid for local cops’ dashcams and bodycams to the tune of $36000 (and said cops apparently looked the other way), damn straight the investigation’s going to be from the State (or even Federal) level. Local authorities may have been compromised.
We’ve seen other Megapastors and Televangelists groom the local authorities and get on the “cop” side of the Code of Blue – Cop will always defend Cop against Not-Cop. At the very least a Conflict of Interest. At most, Bought and Paid for.
Speaking of bad pastors/preachers in Tennessee, the Washington Post published a looooooong article about Greg Locke yesterday. Here’s a link (it’s a gift link so should work): https://wapo.st/3wXxoys He’s far more concerning to me than Perry Stone.
Ken F (aka Tweed) on Fri Apr 01, 2022 at 07:09 PM said:
dee: Can we move on from the celibacy thing?
Decades ago…
Me: LOL
Circling back to this again. It amazes me how many deceiving and power-mad people are out there. Here we read about the megachurch pastors, but such folks are in obscure places too: small volunteer groups, tiny workplaces, clubs, homeowners’ associations…
And that was my point about the man who walked in on us female college students as we were undressing. People will take advantage if we are not alert and persistent. That one action did not constitute abuse, but I’m willing to believe it indicated persistent troubling behavior, shielded by his holy vocation.
Exactly. That’s it. On point.
It was too tempting. Much of my twisted humor relies on “anything that can be misunderstood should be misunderstood.”
Muslin, fka Dee Holmes,
They burned Twilight? As a former teenage girl, I say this affectionately, but the only people taking Twilight seriously are teenage girls. He is looking for conspiracy where none exists.
As for Harry Potter… some conservative Christian parents dislike it for the themes of magic and wizards, which if you want to be super literal and have zero imagination or understanding of allegory, fine. You be you.
But the ones I find even more concerning are those who don’t want their kids to read it because it shows teenagers rebelling against authority. Never mind that said authority is (a) illegitimate and (b) following the literal “Dark Lord.” There IS such a thing as biblical rebellion, if I may be permitted use of the word biblical, here.
I never said that nobody who vows celibacy breaks his or her vows. Would people *please* stop putting words in my mouth?
John made the *utterly insane* claim that only 5% of Catholic priests remain celibate. This claim is patently absurd. No *serious* scholar would countenance such a claim. It is risible.
Instead of engaging the fact that this is an absurd, insane claim, several people are setting up *strawmen,* implying or even outright stating that *my* position is “All Catholic priests remain celibate.” I have never even remotely intimated such a thing. Please…don’t you remember high school debate club? Engage what people have actually said, NOT what they haven’t.
And maybe, just maybe, y’all should focus on the utter absurdity of John’s claim rather than jumping on me for objecting to it.
The claim that over 95% of Catholic priests break their vows is so off-the-charts insane that a sane person should not even have to respond to it. It’s frankly cuckoo. It’s so risible that it doesn’t merit a serious response. If you can’t see that, I don’t know what to tell you.
It’s also in complete conformity with America’s oldest persistent, ongoing prejudice: rabid anti-Catholicism. I am not saying you are anti-Catholic, numo. I do not remember having addressed you at all. But John’s claim is completely in line with classic American anti-Catholicism. You may want to Google “Maria Monk.” This kind of cr*p goes back a very long way.
PASTOR Greg Locke is a popular subject on Telltale Atheist channel.
Just go to YouTube, enter the following search strings, and watch the viedos pop up:
telltale greg locke
telltale fireside chat greg locke
Friend – let’s just say that i doubt it was the first time the guy had done that.
Histrionics being his schtick.
Wild Honey wrote:
“They burned Twilight? As a former teenage girl, I say this affectionately, but the only people taking Twilight seriously are teenage girls. He is looking for conspiracy where none exists.”
Yes they burned Twilight.
They’d burn people too if they could, which is what usually happens when these kinds of men burn books.
I tried to limit my son in 2nd grade from reading the full Harry Potter series (until he was a little older) because they do get progressively darker – he’d read the 1st 3. So what does he do? Checked the next one out from the elementary school library to read at school instead!
A classmate “told” on him when I arrived to volunteer one day – that’s when I gave up limiting his reading choices (or trying to)…
Several of my older family members were teachers. All were exceedingly strait-laced in their private lives, and strict in the classroom. The one area that surprised me: none of them believed in limiting children’s reading matter. They all said the habit of reading was far more important than the content.
Nobody took away my precious Mad Magazine. Lest you think that was mild, trust me, it was both racy and subversive of authority. I remember piping up at dinner and asking what “necking” meant.
The alarmed parental question: “Where did you learn that word?!”
“Mad Magazine.”
“Well, don’t say it!”
I never did learn the meaning. 😉
Headless Unicorn Guy,
I watched the whole Telltale video of 24 Mar 2022, about the minor office conflict that led Greg Locke to call out a pair of staff members, naming them six witches. It’s a 37-minute video. The personnel matter comes up after minute 30 or so.
Greg Locke and his followers and these two castoffs are all dangerous. Greg Locke says that the medical diagnosis of autism could be possession. The fired staff members upset Locke’s wife by saying that there was a “spirit of homosexuality” with one of the other staff members.
This is beyond shallow Christianity, which at least leaves people alone.
Art museum field trips for school children. It’s an education.
(Nowadays, however, it can be disturbing to discover the truth about some of the greatest artists or how they treated their muses… after hours, away from the studio.)
I can imagine. 😉
Thank you, Muslin, fka Dee Holmes, for the link to the Washington Post article A Jan. 6 pastor divides his Tennessee community with increasingly extremist views.
(Bold added by me.)
That.
As someone who once wore an art historian’s hat professionally, i have to say that *all* of the arts have had and still have some pretty shifty characters in their respective canons.
For me personally, there’s a break point with people like Gaughin, who abandoned his wife and children when he went to Tahiti. After which point, he was a sexual abuser.
I can’t stomach him. And there are others like him. Discussions about this kind of behavior and its impact on art are ongoing, in art and art historical circles, although in some other sectors of the arts, such conversations have barely even begun.
Send kids to art museums. Get them to the theater, to dance performances and all the rest. And please, let them *read.*
This is crucial ffor creativity, learning the skills of critical thinking, and so much more.
To be honest, i think my longtime arts involvement + reading habits had nomsmall role in keeping me sane through the years i was involved in evangelical churches, and in the aftermath of being kicked out of one.
I only wish i had applied my critical thinking skills sooner, regarding the churches i was part of, but an awful lot of us who came in the door via the Jesus People movement were snagged by would-be authoritarian leaders before we knew that they wrre closing in on us and had already set traps for us.
Neither Winnie the Pooh nor Harry Potter can “corrupt” kids’ minds.
Those who try to stifle children’s imaginations are the ones to get up in arms about.
(Note: i made my share of questionable decisions while inside evangelicalism, and have since i was forced to leave. All i can say is that having an open mind and heart will help us find our way. Censoriousness leads us to be as ridiculous as Dana Carvey’s Church Lady.)
numo,
When groups stifle creativity in the name of a cause, the end result is the Paige Patterson stained glass window.
Or Chairman Mao’s China. In all respects.
numo on Mon Apr 4, 2022 at 05:40 PM:
I’m a long time fan of William Blake’s paintings…
In the fannish circles I run with, low-end Autism is very common. I’ve long suspected I’m borderline on the low-end; I have some traits associated with Autism but not the whole array. I think I’ll ask my doctor for an evaluation at my next regular appointment. One of my writing partners in Pennsylvania (the self-educated son of a steelworker) is definitely higher up the spectrum; add PTSD from an abusive upbringing and school career and he’s still functional, but barely.
When Autism was first recognized in the 1960s, the only examples known were the high-end, where Autism was so severe that the autistics (mostly children at that time) were completely non-functional. It wasn’t until around or after Y2K that they realized autism was a spectrum, with great variation in severity and most autistics were fully functional, if a bit “weird”.