Brian Houston and the Hillsong Scam

Io over Jupiter.NASA

I chose this picture because it evoked images of those victims who confronted the behemoth known as Hillsong. Yet, they persisted. God have mercy.

“We have to confront ourselves. Do we like what we see in the mirror? And, according to our light, according to our understanding, according to our courage, we will have to say yea or nay – and rise!” Maya Angelou


I signed up for my free Discovery + trial, and my husband and I viewed the documentary: Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed. For those of you who haven’t watched this alarming exposé. Here is the trailer.

I am going to number the issues that were raised by this documentary.

There was so much exposed. By the time I finished the second of the three-part series, I felt depressed. I’m not sure why since I have been following Hillsong since around 2014. A year later, TWW wrote a post that shows how deep the hypocrisy runs in Hillsong. Hillsong Church Disinvites Mark Driscoll While James River Church Embraces Him. I thought Hillsong was showing some character in that instance. Now I believe they were merely showboating that they had “values.”

The following was a press release by Brian Houston.

The Washington Post has already weighed in on the documentary. Hillsong: A Megachurch Exposed’ reveals something more sinister than hypocrisy. This church is huge and has a presence in 30 countries.

It airs allegations that Hillsong’s leadership got rich off donations while heavily exploiting volunteer labor. And it argues that pastors have engaged in extramarital affairs and mishandled accusations of sexual misconduct by church staff, despite teaching the evils of impurity and lying.

…Hillsong’s most famous scandal stateside involved the downfall of Carl Lentz, the young, attractive pastor (dubbed a “hypepriest” by GQ) often spotted wearing luxury streetwear and hanging out with the celebrities among his congregation — including Justin and Hailey Bieber, Kourtney Kardashian and Kevin Durant.

  1. The leadership got rich from the donations of the people. The documentary showed Carl Lentz wearing a hoodie which was valued @$1400. The documentary also featured the creator of Preachers and Sneakers, Ben Kirby. I enjoyed his take on what constitutes a real church.
  2. They allegedly misused volunteer labor. At one point, Houston is heard saying the volunteers arrive at church at 5 AM and would stay at the church long after it closed for the evening.
  3. The leadership was celebrity-focused. They even had special seating for the rich and famous. One man was berated for attempting to seat a nobody in that section.
  4. Some of the pastors have had extramarital relationships. Some of them could be interpreted as clerical abuse. In one situation, an 18-year-old Hillsong College student was molested by an up-and-coming pastor.
  5. Hypocrisy. Pastors such as Carl Lentz preached against premarital and extramarital sex while engaging in those activities.

We all know about the affair. I wrote about how Brian Houston would launch an investigation that this was more than one affair. Brian Houston Announces an Investigation as Allegations Surface That Carl Lentz Had Multiple Sexual Relationships and Hillsong Knew

6. Carl Lentz’s “affair” was documented extensively. His paramour, who I believe was manipulated and was a victim of clerical abuse, spoke at length. She had attended the church at one time. She said Lentz stared at her in a park, and when she began to walk away, he came up and walked with her. His actions appear to be that of a confident man who has done this sort of thing before.

Of course, as we now know, Houston was taking antianxiety pills, drinking alcohol, and showing up at a female staffer’s hotel room. I wrote a post observing that this behavior usually involves women in Brian Houston, Bill Hybels, and the Peeing Pastor Popped Pills While Drinking Alcohol. Why Did Their Subsequent Behavior Affect Only Women?

7. Houston claims the pills and the booze made him do it.? Substance abuse? Sexual exploitation of a staffer? The staffer left and isn’t talking.

The Washington Post said:

also featuring testimonies from former staffers, volunteers and congregation members — plus students at the church-adjacent Hillsong College — who allege that they’ve been worked to exhaustion for no pay or that at least one report of inappropriate behavior toward a young woman by a male staffer was under-investigated.

8 A young woman’s sexual harassment at the hands of an up-and-coming pastor type was ignored. The woman was even made to tell her story over and over again. They finally reported this to the police. He was given probation.

Todd Wilhelm posted this on Twitter.

9. Brian Houston claimed his father never preached again after being credibly accused of sexual abuse of a minor. His father was allowed to preach again, as evidenced by the recording.

Brian Houston denies knowing anything about his father’s abuse of minors. The documentary seems to indicate otherwise. I wrote about this last August in Brian Houston Is Finally Charged With Concealing Child Sex Abuse Committed By His Pastor Father

10. Brian Houston will finally be tried for allegedly covering up his father’s abuse of minors. His father started the church, and Brian Houston came on board.

The following are just a few of my thoughts.

11. It is my opinion that Hillsong is a corrupt organization that got its start when Brian Houston came to the US to study how famous people like Jim and Tammy Baker, along with other prosperity gospel mongers, did it. It is a church organization with a foundation that might encourage this behavior. 

12. Hillsong has actual member churches listed on their website. However, the documentary seemed to indicate that there could be over a hundred churches that are Hillsong affiliated but are not listed on the roles. Why does this remind me of the SBC churches which remove Baptist from their name? They also do not admit to being heavily Reformed. Folks, read my tutorial on how to read a church website before attending a church.

13. Could the organization attract abusive individuals who believe that they can get girls, gold, and glory? They hung out green light and said, “Come on in, boys.”

There is so much more, but this will get you started. Let me end with a prediction. Hillsong will go silent and start pushing new churches which will not have the Hillsong name. Brian Houston will still be the “man behind the curtain,” pulling the strings. He is now a pariah and many churches will avoid the name of Hillsong while still copying their corporate model. TWW can help you avoid getting involved sich a church.

Please add to my list. I know it is somewhat limited. Also, Boz Tchividjian did a great job speaking up for the victims.

Today I spent time listening to the theologically accurate and beautiful music of Michael Card. It was such a relief after listening to Hillsong music yesterday. The documentary seemed to indicate that the music is meant to manipulate your emotions. I’m so glad for a musician like Card who turned his back on the CCM money train. This is a good one for Lent. Do you think Hillsong does Lent? Nah…probably too much of a downer.

Comments

Brian Houston and the Hillsong Scam — 90 Comments

  1. Just personally, I’d love to see some of Hillsong’s statements put through an image repair analysis by someone like Dr Dahl. Or if someone here wanted to take a stab at it… The statements by Houston when he fired the Lentz especially impressed me as “satanic to the core” to borrow a phrase.

  2. Dee,
    I am sorry you this latest revelation “got to you”… I bet these “problems” have been with the church since the “early days” The old testament really had only a handful of actors that really behaved well…. Most were pretty bad.. i am not at all justifying the behavior of all “the featured individuals” on TWW, just that “bad behavior” is more the “status quo”, In fact, I think all the “stuff” on TWW is fulling the NT statements about wolves in sheep clothing..

  3. This weekend I watched hours of Brian Houston testifying before the Royal Commission in 2014. He was sworn in prior to his testimony – took an oath on the Bible to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Yet he started out many of his responses with “Honestly?” Blah, blah blah. Which leads me to wonder, if he didn’t preface a response with “Honestly?” may I assume he wasn’t being honest? Or should I think that when he does preface a response with “Honestly?” he likely isn’t being honest.

    I think he resigned because, in addition to drunken/medicated liaisons, he knows his goose is cooked in his upcoming trial.

    You know who Brian Houston reminds me of? Honestly, (just had to throw that in) PJ Smyth.

  4. “#2 They allegedly misused volunteer labor. At one point, Houston is heard saying the volunteers arrive at church at 5AM and would stay at the church long after it closed for the evening.”

    Odd how these guys operate. The greed. The hypocrisy. Scam is the right word.

    A professional nationally known youth pastor came to our church after resigning from Hybels’ Chicago scam. She said the pay (and misogyny) was AWFUL even as Hybels collected yachts and bragged about women leaders.

  5. Come and listen to a story ’bout a preacher named Jed.
    Poor rural parson barely kept his family fed.
    Then one day he went to Pastor’s School,
    And when he returned, he was a Fundy tool.
    (Gimmicks, that is. Proof texts. Lotsa rules.)

    Well the next thing you know, the Mega Church looks great,
    Buses everywhere throughout the Tri-State,
    New Basement Bible College and Academy,
    With just one man to rule so there is no anarchy.
    (Dictatorship that is. Pastoral Authority. IFB heroes.)

    Well, now its time to say goodbye to Jed and all his ilk.
    Now that he is doing time his wife’s no more in silk.
    You’re all invited to stop in on Thursday about noon
    To commiserate with the former Fundy church tycoon.
    (The Elm Street Embezzler. That’s what they call him now.
    Property auction in two weeks. Ya’ll come bid now, ya hear!)

    BEVERLY HILLBILLIESGUEST POST

  6. Jeffrey Chalmers: I bet these “problems” have been with the church since the “early days”

    Yes they have. The fact that there isn’t one Christian denomination I know of that actually engages with the reality that ministry is a magnet for the shifty, criminal, deviant and sociopathic, is one of the more remarkable aspects.

  7. Todd Wilhelm: Or should I think that when he does preface a response with “Honestly?” he likely isn’t being honest.

    Yes this one. It’s like when an ebay listing is at pains to keep repeating that what you’re buying is genuine, you know it isn’t.

  8. Here’s an interesting analysis (from a ‘blog that is, appropriate to the present post, named “Notes from Disgraceland”) that suggests that “scale” is part of the problem — basically, in groups above a certain size, the collective ‘intelligence’ or ‘wisdom’ of the group is lower than the intelligence/wisdom of the average member of the group.

    I suspect that the analysis could be extended to issues of ‘what the group values’ compared with ‘what individuals value’, which might be more appropriate in church settings. Reshaping the analysis along the lines of ‘values’ rather than ‘intelligence’ would also soften a harsh note in the analysis, which could be interpreted to conflate ‘individual intelligence’ with ‘individual virtue’; I think the two traits, as individual traits, are nearly orthogonal to each other.

    https://notesfromdisgraceland.wordpress.com/2022/03/13/the-few-body-problem-the-metaphysics-of-stupidity/

    This analysis/proposal appeals to me because it suggests a sociological underpinning to the intuition that “scale is counterproductive in church settings”. And that’s a hopeful thought in that is suggests the possibility that ‘de-scaling’ might be a way for the churches to address some of their problems.

  9. John: Yes they have. The fact that there isn’t one Christian denomination I know of that actually engages with the reality that ministry is a magnet for the shifty, criminal, deviant and sociopathic, is one of the more remarkable aspects.

    No, no, Matt Chandler says A29 weeds out the narcissists now. They’re real good at it.

  10. Dee,

    I really enjoyed the Michael Card song….and the lyrics provided food for thought….it was helpful to be able to read the lyrics while Michael Card was singing.

    I liked the picture you chose of Io over Jupiter….

    From the opening post:

    I chose this picture because it evoked images of those victims who confronted the behemoth known as Hillsong. Yet, they persisted. God have mercy.

    ….and your explanation for why you chose the picture of Io over Jupiter was kinda like a picture of David (Io) and Goliath (Jupiter).

    (I read the post….more food for thought….)

  11. Jeffrey Chalmers: I am sorry you this latest revelation “got to you”

    I jusr feel so sorry for those who are hurt by these scam artists. I saw those people talking, and I wanted to dialog with them about the real Jesus. Also, I’m thinking more and more why sexual abuse is so rampant in the church. A group like Hillsong sends out a vibe that a predator pastor would be safe among them.

    This whole thing is so massive. That’s why I chose the picture at the top. Io casts but a tiny shadow on Jupiter. It is a lot like David confronting Goliath. I am so grateful for folks like you who get it. When I first started this thing, I felt rather lonely. No more!

  12. researcher,

    I have all of his songs in a playlist. I listen to it most weekends. My husband says it ups the atmosphere in the house. His music has affected my life. Much of what I think about is derived from his works.

    I’m glad you got the David and Goliath vibe from the picture above.

  13. Ava Aaronson: A professional nationally known youth pastor came to our church after resigning from Hybels’ Chicago scam. She said the pay (and misogyny) was AWFUL even as Hybels collected yachts and bragged about women leaders.

    That is a great piece of information. Thank you.

  14. marco: No, no, Matt Chandler says A29 weeds out the narcissists now. They’re real good at it.

    I think this is the funniest thing I’ve read this week. This is the man who called a guy who had the audacity to write an email to him with concerns “a narcissistic zero.”

  15. From the opening post:

    9. Brian Houston claimed his father never preached again after being credibly accused of sexual abuse of a minor. His father was allowed to preach again, as evidenced by the recording.

    Is it just me, or did anyone else notice how frequently in the video Frank Houston commented on the boys: the little boys (mentioned more than once), the boys’ appearance (curly hair, good looking, big, strong, etc.)?

    I doubt preaching was the only thing Frank Houston stopped doing….paedophiles don’t stop being paedophiles….not unless the paedophile has a REAL conversion experience….in which case, God would likely have had to perform a miracle, and the paedophile would REALLY repent, etc., etc., etc.

  16. marco: No, no, Matt Chandler says A29 weeds out the narcissists now. They’re real good at it.

    Now you’re gaslighting me.

  17. dee,

    You hit the nail on the head…. IMHO, Much of Christ’s message was focused on the downtrodden/oppressed…. Time and again, the individuates “featured” on TWW abused others, in the name of Christ, and the “system” covered it up, at the expense of the victim… … sigh…

  18. About their music: *of course* it’s manipulative.

    Years back, i was an accompanist in a church “worship band” (i dislike the term and concept very much). We did a lot of Hillsong material and it was SO obvious that it was meant to evoke very strong emotions + put attendees in a certain frame of mind.

    Really, it’s in the same league as NAzi propaganda filmmakerLeni Riefenstahl’s ode to H*tler, “Triumph of the Will.”

    If that sounds like an exaggeration, I’d suggest that folks look into the kinds of control that authoritarian leaders with tremendous charisma use to exert control over their followers. The dynamics are the same, whether it’s happening in individual church congregations or on a massive scale, as with the thousands upon thousands of National Socialists who participated in the enormous gathering shown in “Triumph of the Will.”

    Many academic psychologists are actually starting to espouse the view that such leaders deliberately use various rhetorical devices, music, etc. to literally evoke a state of trance in their followers. (Am not talking about a hypnotic trance – there are many different kinds of trance states, which include the effects of watching TV for any length of time. Our attention is caught up in the shows; we become far less aware of other people and things around us for the duration – unless, of course, there are frequent interruptions.)

    I’ve seen people from other countries cringe at the use of music in various American evangelical churches, as the manipulative aspects of it were so obvious to them. Wherever they attended in their home countries, they pretty much didn’t have any awareness of this use of music – one meant to bring on intense emotions.

    I guess i could say more, but… I’m not surprised at any of this.

    Btw Dee, this is one of many reasons that i prefer to listen to sacred music from the classical rep – have been doing it for decades now. While i realize that all music evokes emotions, i guess that 1) i just like many of the styles under the classical umbrella better and 2) if the words are in other languages, there are translations in the booklets that accompany CDs. Compared to the Hillsong brand (and so many others), the *content* of the texts are generally amazing. (I also love Black gospel music, which is a whole other topic, really.) Also, i do like Michael Card’s approach, although I’m more of a Bruce Cockburn fan myself. (It’s a whole different thing, really.) You would probably enjoy Bruce’s song “Lord of the Starfields.”

    Hope everyone is doing well.

    Best,
    num9

  19. As a tag on my previous comment (currently in the mod queue), i hear more in pieces like J.S. Bach’s solo violin works than I’ve ever gotten from contemporary “worship” music – and most people would class works like this as “seculwr” pieces. But i think it was all one to Bach, who dedicated every one of his works “to the greater glory of God” – presumably his humprous, secular cantatas as well as the soaring heights he reached elsewhere.

  20. One of the rare times I ask this, but CAN I SAY I TOLD YOU SO? I started refusing to sing Hillsong music in 2008. I spoke to pastors across a couple of states about the manipulation. I tried to tell people I served AS A MUSICIAN and was SYSTEMATICALLY TRAINED to use the music to manipulate.

    We had left a state with many Lutheran churches, and were in a state with one and it had….problems. So we had gone back to evangelicalism. Of course, Hillsong has invaded many Lutheran churches also.

    More bad news: it is not just Hillsong. There are a slew of performers, writers, leaders, etc. using this schtick and creating this drivel.

    It is snake oil, designed to part a fool and his money.

    When the Holy Spirit moves in a service it can get quite loud, exciting, and emotional. Might be liturgical mode, traditional, hip hop, southern gospel, cowboy church, whatever.

    This ain’t that. This is pure and simple crowd mesmerizing using music. Pure hype and manipulating, including inducing specific neurotransmitters. If a cocaine dealer and a song leader give you the same high knowing you will come back for more, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE?

  21. marco:,
    “Chandler says they are really good at rooting out narcissists now”
    ——_-
    Also the narcissistic zeros? Does that include ‘pastors’? Himself?

  22. Nancy(aka Kevlar): “ the leading edge of cool Christianity,”

    That comment alone is scary!

    Church as Entertainment, Christianity Lite, Cheap Grace … big screens, fog machines, and skinny jeans … millions swaying to the beat of the drums … one mile wide and one foot deep … not enough power to blow the dust off a peanut … they don’t scare the devil when they get up in the morning … Jesus has no authority or influence over it, they are on their own.

  23. Nancy(aka Kevlar): “ the leading edge of cool Christianity”

    Unfortunately, the Hillsong model of doing church can be found in most communities across America, where the music platform takes precedence over preaching of the Gospel. It has done as much to distract churchgoers from the Great Commission as Hybel’s Willowcreek seeker-friendly model. Both have created a breed of “Christians” who don’t know the Word, pray as they ought, nor share hope in Christ with neighbors and co-workers … they are having too much fun to do anything like that.

  24. numo: i hear more in pieces like J.S. Bach’s solo violin works than I’ve ever gotten from contemporary “worship” music

    Years ago – decades actually – we were members of a rural church. Periodically, they had a Sunday afternoon where church members and those from neighboring churches offered music in one form or another. There was always a large crowd. Most of those who brought music were humble folks without much talent, but they loved the Lord and did their best to praise His name. Over the years, I have listened to a multitude of professional Christian artists … but my mind goes back to the best song I ever heard. On one of those Sunday afternoons, a visitor from another church limped slowly to the front. He had suffered from a stroke which left him paralyzed on his left side and unable to speak clearly. Staring out at the crowd, he closed his eyes, lifted a harmonica with his right hand to his lips, and played “Amazing Grace” … he may have missed a few notes, but none of us noticed … it was an anointed moment I’ll never forget … there wasn’t a dry eye in the place. No big screens, no fog machines, no skinny jeans … just that humble soul and Jesus at the front of the church.

  25. Nancy(aka Kevlar): https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/29/us/hillsong-church-scandals.html

    Thank you, Nancy(aka Kevlar), for the link to the The New York Times article Hillsong, Once a Leader of Christian Cool, Loses Footing in America.

    From the article:

    Sunday’s service was the last for Hillsong Atlanta. “We believe the Lord is calling us to move into the next season,” Mr. Collier told his congregation. Mr. Collier is launching a new church on Easter Sunday, and expects much of his Hillsong congregation to migrate there.

    Is it just me, or is it wrong to be launching a new church on Easter Sunday?

    And something I thought of after thinking it’s wrong to be launching a new church on Easter Sunday….isn’t launching a new church on Easter Sunday manipulative? After all, people are more likely to attend….including those who are often referred to as “nominal Christians”. (In this case, when I use the term “nominal Christian”, I am referring to people who only attend church on Christmas Day (or for the Christmas Eve (for Christmas Day) service) and Easter Sunday….)

    From the same article:

    For Mr. Crist, leaving Hillsong was the culmination of several years of doubts about the institution. He objected a few years ago, he said, when a global church restructuring disbanded his board of local leaders and put him directly under the authority of the Australia-based global board. And he bristled when he and other lead pastors were asked to sign noncompete and non-disparagement agreements in the wake of the scandal in the East Coast branches. He never signed.

    The church press office described the agreements as standard elements of their general contracts with church leaders.

    (Bold added by me.)

    Amongst other things in the above quote, note what I’ve highlighted in bold….

    And my apologies if there are any errors in my comment (including formatting), if I unintentionally cause anyone any offence, etc….I’m writing my comment WAY faster than is usual for me….I want to go outside for a walk….

  26. “… but my mind goes back to the best song I ever heard. On one of those Sunday afternoons, a visitor from another church limped slowly to the front. He had suffered from a stroke which left him paralyzed on his left side and unable to speak clearly. Staring out at the crowd, he closed his eyes, lifted a harmonica with his right hand to his lips, and played “Amazing Grace” … he may have missed a few notes, but none of us noticed … it was an anointed moment I’ll never forget … there wasn’t a dry eye in the place. No big screens, no fog machines, no skinny jeans … just that humble soul and Jesus at the front of the church.”

    MAX,
    this is a beautiful witness. Thank you for sharing it here.

    not sure when or why congregational prayer and singing was set aside and replaced with smoke machines and ‘entertainment’;
    but the Church lost something special and your moving comment brings light on that loss.

  27. Max: Church as Entertainment, Christianity Lite, Cheap Grace … big screens, fog machines, and skinny jeans … millions swaying to the beat of the drums …

    Disco “Gospel”???

  28. Would the Holy Spirit still work if there was a power failure? All of those keyboards, lights and smoke machines seem to be an essential part of creating a “mood” for worship.

  29. marco: Matt Chandler says A29 weeds out the narcissists now. They’re real good at it.

    As in, weeding them out from the pews to place in the pulpits?

  30. dee,

    Lifeway used to have a chain of bookstores in town. (Don’t know where they all went.) The entire time they were in operation (decades), hear tell they paid their staff dirt cheap.

    What’s the deal with how Christians starve their staff while the upper echelon grows mega wealthy?

  31. numo,

    I think music is probably the most powerful way to convey emotion. It’s purpose is to reach deep into our hearts and highlight and expose the different layers of emotion we have there. It can unite a group of people in these emotions.

    Because of this, it’s important to understand good, effective music alters our consciousness, putting us in various degrees of trance states. To certain extents we let go of our critical thinking capacities and lose ourselves in the music. Music increases our suggestibility. When we recognize this and put ourselves in safe places with good music, there’s nothing better.

    It’s only when music is paired with deception that it becomes a tool in a tyrant’s arsenal to exercise authoritarian control over his or her followers. After a specially moving musical experience, a preacher can get up on stage and say a lot of crazy things that people are more susceptible to believe.

    But I don’t think a particular style of music is at fault. One of my favorite songs is “So Will I (100 Billion X)” from Hillsong. I can worship God with that song even though I don’t participate with the worst of Hillsong’s culture and theology.

  32. Dave AA: The statements by Houston when he fired the Lentz especially impressed me as “satanic to the core” to borrow a phrase.

    How long have these pastor leaders been on power? One questions the culture nurtured in Hillsong’s churches – covertly – with these guys running the show. Pastor leaders seek to replicate. What were they replicating among the Flock? How many more predators are there under the tutelage of this predatory leadership? How many more victims are there, globally?

  33. Nancy2(aka Kevlar),

    To quote CCM musician Steve Taylor:
    Sunday needs a pick me up?
    Here’s your chance
    Do you get tired of the same old square dance?
    Allemande right now
    All join hands
    Do-si-do to the promised boogieland
    Got no need for altar calls
    Sold the altar for the mirror balls
    Do you shuffle? do you twist?
    ’cause with a hot hits playlist, now we say

    This disco used to be a cute cathedral
    Where the chosen cha-cha every day of the year
    This disco used to be a cute cathedral
    Where we only play the stuff you’re wanting to hear

    Mickey does the two-step
    One, Two, Swing
    All the little church mice doing their thing
    Boppin’ in the belltower
    Rumba to the right
    Knock, knock
    Who’s there?
    Get me outta this limelight
    So, you want to defect?
    Officer, what did you expect?
    Got no rhythm, got no dough
    He said, “Listen, Bozo, don’t you know”

    This disco used to be a cute cathedral
    Where the chosen cha-cha every day of the week
    This disco used to be a cute cathedral
    But we got no room if you ain’t gonna be chic

    Sell your holy habitats
    This ship’s been deserted by sinking rats
    The exclusive place to go
    It’s where the pious pogo
    Don’t you know

    This disco…

  34. Max,

    WOW. It sounds truly marvelous!

    I have little love for the kinds of slickly-produced, simp.istic (in both music and text) songs that dominate “contemporary worship.” There are a few pieces that transcend the category, but so much of it is just… bad.

    However, YMMV! This is also about individual taste. I can honestly say that i liked playing some of this material for the sheer fact that i liked playing with the other musicians. I wish the stuff we played had been of a higher caliber, but i don’t regret having done it, b/c making music with others has much to reccomend itself. (I like being part of an ensemble; am not a soloist type.)

  35. Paul K,

    Paul – fair enough! Although i really *do* think that much “contemporary worship” stuff truly *is* meant to get to people. It’s also a matter of musical taste on my part, and there some pieces that i still like – not many, though.

    The whole “worship music” industry is very off-putting to me personally, but YMMV.

    As for music in general – instrumental and vocal – i think we engage it in ways that aren’t easily described in words. Some aspects are beyond words entirely. This is true for whoever is playing, snd listeners generally, regardless of genre. I worked with a music director who had very decided opinions on what was or was not”worship” that… well, we disagreed intensely on that.

    But then, I’m Lutheran, and grew up in a congregation that used to be noted for the quality of its music, both choral and instrumental. Nobody was a professional, as in many Episcopal churches, but there were a lot of talented amateurs who played and ssng really well. (At one time, it was a haven for local music teachers.) So my take on church music is a bit different than what’s typical in many Protestant denominations.

    People might find material from the older repertoire of sacred music that really resonates with them, if they dipped into it.

    But this is opinion, not fact. 🙂

  36. Also, i truly don’t think that people who wrote church music (hymns, etc.) in other eras were trying to compose pieces that were intended to be manipulative.

    That is something that comes from marketing and advertising – both very recent phenomena. The Xtian music industry is modeled on the corporate music industry in general, and that means it’s infused with the kind of thinking that is about what sells. Music that’s *intended* to sell is formulaic and often manipulative in ways that, say, someone like Michael Card isn’t. His lyrics engage people on an entirely different level. (His compositions and accompaniment, too.) He wants people to *think,* and he wants the content of his lyrics to be meaningful.

    By far the best contemporary music I’ve sung and played is a lot of the music written by American Catholics immediately after Vatican II, for folk Masses and the like. I mean, it’s well-written, engaging, generally *much* higher quality than anything from Hillsong and similar – and is meant to be accessible, per the instrumrntal and vocal aspects – meaning, for congregational worship, in small or large groups. There were some great writers and arrangers in the 60s-early 70s, but i don’t know if there’s still a form of that going on today. The 60s and early 70s were a unique era for music, generally speaking.

  37. Neil Cameron (One Salient Oversight): Would the Holy Spirit still work if there was a power failure? All of those keyboards, lights and smoke machines seem to be an essential part of creating a “mood” for worship.

    Apparently love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness, and self control (the fruit of the Holy Spirit) are not good enough but fog, amps, and lights are what church is all about.

  38. Ava Aaronson: Casino Christianity

    I was young and now am old. I’ve lived long enough to witness “praise & worship teams” in some places morph into a hoochie-coochie show with performers in tight paints gyrating to the beat of loud drums and whining electric guitars under laser lights and deafening sound systems. It’s church as entertainment pure and simple.

    Let it be known that I’m not opposed to contemporary music … after all, Jesus is the eternal contemporary! Our daughter is a gifted pianist and singer, who has traveled with a Christian ministry … her music could be considered “contemporary.” But there’s not much substance in the form in which some Christian music is being presented … it’s more performance than worship. It’s more of an emotional experience, than a spiritual encounter. It’s more annoying than anointed.

  39. Paul K: I don’t think a particular style of music is at fault. One of my favorite songs is “So Will I (100 Billion X)” from Hillsong. I can worship God with that song even though I don’t participate with the worst of Hillsong’s culture and theology.

    Amen! Regardless of form, worship is possible “if” the way, the truth, and life in Christ is lifted in praise. When the genuine is offered to God in the midst of the counterfeit, worship can still happen. Hillsong music can’t be tossed out with Houston.

  40. Max on Tue Mar 29, 2022 at 04:56 PM said:

    “…Staring out at the crowd, he closed his eyes, lifted a harmonica with his right hand to his lips, and played “Amazing Grace” … he may have missed a few notes, but none of us noticed … it was an anointed moment I’ll never forget …”
    ++++++++++++

    that’s so lovely.

    the sincerity, the integrity of the music…

  41. Ava Aaronson on Tue Mar 29, 2022 at 09:46 PM said:
    dee,

    “What’s the deal with how Christians starve their staff while the upper echelon grows mega wealthy?”
    +++++++++++++++++++

    hmmm…. ‘biblical’ this and ‘biblical’ that plus business enterprise?

    i can think of a number of biblical cases that justify exploiting volunteer service

    and rewarding the person(s) that wear the professional christian hats as if it were sheer blessings from God.

    (and if God wants to bless us who are we to shut it off, as the thinking goes).

    the ‘biblical’ insurance policy is ‘all things work together for good’, so personal responsibility in how things are run doesn’t matter all that much.

    all of which I find reprehensible.

  42. Jean,

    Remember, Steve Taylor’s peak was in the 1980s.

    Way back then, he was also the first to expose Bill Got Hard with “I MANIPULATE”.

    Until he wrote “I Blew Up the Clinic Real Good” from the POV of an abortion clinic bomber and got turned into a pile of rocks. Had to hang up the mic after that and went into producing behind the scenes.

  43. Paul K: It’s only when music is paired with deception that it becomes a tool in a tyrant’s arsenal to exercise authoritarian control over his or her followers. After a specially moving musical experience, a preacher can get up on stage and say a lot of crazy things that people are more susceptible to believe.

    Just like the pageantry of a Nuremberg Rally, all prepping for and pointing to the Fuehrer’s sermon, groomed and prepped to “Believe Anything and Everything He Says”.

    Fritz Leiber’s SF novel Gather Darkness (set in a techno-magic religious dystopia) did this more directly with specially-engineered “Parasymp Organs” whose music was loaded with subliminal mind-control tones and progressions – slipped right past the conscious mind and pulled the puppet strings in the brainstem, similar to “The Voice” from Frank Herbert’s Dune or Scientology’s “Tone 40 Voice” from Elron Hubbard.

  44. numo: Really, it’s in the same league as NAzi propaganda filmmakerLeni Riefenstahl’s ode to H*tler, “Triumph of the Will.”

    Triumph des Willens, 1935.
    Probably one of the most powerful pieces of propaganda ever filmed.
    Everything – staging, music, editing, camerawork – all focused on worship of the Fuehrer and the Reich.

    I have heard stories of people watching it knowing its history and what it did and coming out afterwards having to consciously stop themselves from giving The Salute and joining in the cheers of praise and adoration. (Without reinforcement, this quickly fades. But it tells you something about the raw Power of the film.)

    If that sounds like an exaggeration, I’d suggest that folks look into the kinds of control that authoritarian leaders with tremendous charisma use to exert control over their followers. The dynamics are the same, whether it’s happening in individual church congregations or on a massive scale, as with the thousands upon thousands of National Socialists who participated in the enormous gathering shown in “Triumph of the Will.”

    According to my copy of the 1943 OSS psych Profile of Der Fuehrer (wish my keyboard had Umlauts so I could spell that correctly), foreign observers at Nuremberg described the rallies as “revival meetings”.

  45. Ava Aaronson: A professional nationally known youth pastor came to our church after resigning from Hybels’ Chicago scam. She said the pay (and misogyny) was AWFUL even as Hybels collected yachts…

    Never mind the Furticks or the Copelands, Hybels had to keep up with the Putins.

  46. Headless Unicorn Guy: powerful … propaganda … staging, music, editing, camerawork … foreign observers at Nuremberg described the rallies as “revival meetings”

    Putin held a huge rally in Russia recently, a glorious orchestrated event to garner support for his invasion of Ukraine … he even quoted Scripture!

  47. Re: worship music (my reply isn’t working)
    My friend plays hymns and worship songs through an app. I’ve noticed some of the music has an odd feature (I can’t remember any words or titles or I’d get an example)…
    Chord 1: 8 quarter notes Chord 2: 8 quarter notes (Optional Chord 3 ) Back to Chord 1: 8 quarter notes…. I think it’s supposed to be hypnotic. And when I look at the phone it’ll be by Hillsong worship, Elevation worship, Gateway worship ,Sovereign Grace worship etc.

  48. MAX,

    hard to see Putin ‘quoting Scripture’, yes

    he’s playing to the extremists far right in America who see in Donald Trump a ‘savior’ and who fancy themselves ‘Christians’, never mind the intense hatred and contempt they display for ‘the others’, the poor, the ‘sinners’ they have singled out as more contemptible than themselves (a strong odor of phariseeism among these ‘chosen’ whom Trump is supposedly ‘saving’)

    and the Trump rallies?

    we’ve all seen and heard for ourselves, the mocking, the bullying, the hate-speech, the call to recognize that HE ALONE can ‘fix it’, the call to violent confrontation against all who oppose the trump

    quoting Scripture? Putin?

    another version of the trump holding a Bible upside down after forcefully directing an attack against a peaceful demonstration . . .

    we have all heard; we have all seen

    May God have mercy. The people of Ukraine fight for ‘freedom’ from autocracy as lived in Putin’s country, where the wealth is stolen by autocrats (friends of Putin) and the people live poorly without much hope for better to come

    Fox News has ‘taught’ that Putin is a ‘good guy’ through commentators who are favorites of fundamentalist-evangelical Americans,
    but we can ‘see’ and we can ‘hear’ the destruction Putin has ordered on an innocent people and their country

    I hope someday those ‘Christians’ will also recognize what Putin and his ilk are in this world, and reject autocracy – we shall see

  49. HUG – the reply function is a little wonky right now, so i hope you see this.

    Agree completely on Riefenstahl and that film, also Olympia. I am not at all surprised the people would come out of a screening and notice that they’d already been indoctrinated on a subconscious level.

    Don’t know if you’ve ever read the late Susan Sontag’s essay on Riefenstahl (” Fascinating Fascism”). It’s worth hunting down, as she slams Riefenstahl’smany lies about herself, her relationship to the party, her 30s films and much more. Riefenstahl’s reputation got a huge – and completely unwarranted boost – in some W. European countries during the late 50s-mid 60s. And she lied and lied in interview after interview.

    It’s chilling, especially in light of current events here and abroad.

  50. Max, he has all kinds of support for this war from the highest levels of the Russian Orthodox church.

    While meanwhile, a lot of RO clergy, as well as Orthodox clergy and laypeople all over the world, are absolutely horrified and are demsnding that the war end now.

    I fear that many of the critics in both Rusdia and Ukraine have been sent off to various gulags.

  51. numo: he has all kinds of support for this war from the highest levels of the Russian Orthodox church

    The problem with deception is that you don’t know you are deceived because you are deceived. The hair stood up on the back of my neck when I heard Putin quote John 15:13, as he was controlling the massacre of hundreds/thousands of innocents in Ukraine.

  52. numo: the reply function is a little wonky right now

    That’s been a problem for a while for some folks. I can’t get them to work if I access TWW via Google, but they work OK with my AVG browser.

  53. Max,

    The Russian tsars wielded absolute power, partly via the Russian Orthodox Church. When the Soviet leaders swept in, they did all they could to destroy the Russian Orthodox Church and most expression of religion: this gave them power previously held by the church.

    In the post-Soviet period, some freedom of religion was allowed in Russia. More recently, Putin allied himself with the Russian Orthodox Church, entwining despotic power with religion. Again.

  54. christiane:
    MAX,

    hard to see Putin ‘quoting Scripture’, yes

    he’s playing to the extremists far right in America who see in Donald Trump a ‘savior’ and who fancy themselves‘Christians’,never mind the intense hatred and contempt they display for ‘the others’, the poor, the ‘sinners’ they have singled out as more contemptible than themselves (a strong odor of phariseeism among these ‘chosen’ whom Trump is supposedly ‘saving’)

    and the Trump rallies?

    we’ve all seen and heard for ourselves,the mocking, the bullying,the hate-speech, the call to recognize that HE ALONE can ‘fix it’,the call to violent confrontation against all who oppose the trump

    quoting Scripture?Putin?

    another version of the trump holding a Bible upside down after forcefully directing an attack against a peaceful demonstration . . .

    we have all heard;we have all seen

    May God have mercy. The people of Ukraine fight for ‘freedom’ from autocracy as lived in Putin’s country, where the wealth is stolen by autocrats (friends of Putin) and the people live poorly without much hope for better to come

    Fox News has ‘taught’ that Putin is a ‘good guy’ through commentators who are favorites of fundamentalist-evangelical Americans,
    but we can ‘see’ and we can ‘hear’ the destruction Putin has ordered on an innocent people and their country

    I hope someday those ‘Christians’ will also recognize what Putin and his ilk are in this world,and reject autocracy – we shall see

    WADR and with great trepidation….

    I thought we weren’t supposed to drag American politics into our discussions here.

    May I respectfully beg that we perhaps refrain from doing so?

    I voted for Trump. Twice. So, in the immortal words of Nathan Detroit, sue me. I will take Trump over the warmongering dementia patient currently occupying the White House — and bringing us dangerously close to WWIII — any day and twice on Sundays.

    Does that mean I am not welcome here at TWW? I hope not, because I like it here.

    I hope we can continue to discuss churchy stuff without regularly dragging “Orange Man Bad And His Voters Even Worse” into the conversations.

    I promise I will not inflict my political views on anyone here. I hope others will return the courtesy.

    I’m not Dee or TMBTC, nor do I play them on TV. I have zero authority. I merely ask, plead, and humbly beg that we leave US politics out of the discussions here… assuming that this is OK with Dee. I personally would feel a lot more welcome and comfortable if US politics were off the table. But that’s just me.

    I hope I’m not offending anyone. This has been building for awhile. I have almost quit this board entirely on several occasions because I felt marginalized WRT my political views.

    BTW Cristiane, I completely agree with you re Putin. But then, IMHO Zelenskyy is no prize either. As Russell Brand noted recently, regarding the world leaders involved in this mess, there are no Goodies and Baddies. They’re all Baddies. Yet the fact remains that the Ukrainian people suffer.

  55. numo on Tue Mar 29, 2022 at 02:22 PM:
    Even the Brandenburg Concertos have more worship in them than the entire retinue of modern ‘praise and worship crap.

  56. researcher,

    Puts things in perspective, researcher. You won’t see this on the evening news, but we’ll hear all about the ugly side of church … like Houston and the Hillsong scam. In the meantime, persecuted Christians praise the Lord.

  57. Friend: In the post-Soviet period, some freedom of religion was allowed in Russia. More recently, Putin allied himself with the Russian Orthodox Church, entwining despotic power with religion. Again.

    The Tsar and Autocrat gets Divine Right to Rule, and the Church gets to suck up to Power and a free rein stamping out Heretics and Apostates. (And blessing his nuclear arsenal.)

  58. christiane: Fox News has ‘taught’ that Putin is a ‘good guy’ through commentators who are favorites of fundamentalist-evangelical Americans,

    Their justification is all Christianese Culture War:

    No HOMOSEXUALS in Putin’s Russia. No ABORTION in Putin’s Russia. Only TWO genders in Putin’s Russia. Putin praised as “anti-Woke”. And Putin claims (at least officially) to be a Devout Russian Orthodox CHRISTIAN and on a mission from God (confirmed by RO Patriarch Krill, i.s. The Church in partnership with God’s Chosen Leader). Holy Russia, a CHRISTIAN Nation.

    Putin won their Culture War in Holy Russia, and that’s all they can see.

  59. Max: Putin held a huge rally in Russia recently, a glorious orchestrated event to garner support for his invasion of Ukraine … he even quoted Scripture!

    That wasn’t a rally, Max.
    That was a Megachurch Service/Revival Meeting!
    Complete with the Praise-and-Worship Music and all the pretty young believers waving flags and cheering, Youth On Fire for The LORD and Megapastor Putin!
    And SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE! SCRIPTURE!

  60. Friend,

    THIS

    Max (and all) –

    Putin is *not* “deceived.” He knows exactly what he’s doing, and so does Patriarch Kiril (current head of the RO church inside Russia). This is the *exact* same religious ethnonationalism that the tsarist state used to justify its conquests and empire. To be fair, the Soviets, while using a slightly different rationsle, did horrible things in order to sustain their hold on that empire. One of them was to deliberately starve Ukraine and its people during thee 1930s – under Stalin. The death toll was astronomical. (See historian Anne Applebaum’s recent book, Red Famine, on this catastrophe/genocide.)

    Russia is invested in retaking Ukraine for religious as well as economic reasons. The early state of Kyivan Rus’ (which was Slavic-Scandinavian) converted to Orthodoxy from its prior religion in the late 1st millennium. They were the 1st Eastern Slavs to do so. In time, due to many complicated factors, the center of power shifted from Kyiv to Miscow.

    Russian ethnonationalism asserts that Ukraine has always beonged to Russia due to its early conversion to Orthodox Xtianity. During the tsars, Moscow was called the “third Rome” (after Rome and Constantinople/Istanbul), “holy Russia,” “holy Mother Russia” and the like. These concepts and phrases have all been revived with a vengeance since Putin has consolidated his power.

    Ukraine is a mutiethnic/multicultural state that is *not* Russian. The Ukrainian language is *not* the same as Russian – it’s related but independent of it.

    The people of Ukraine havee rarely been free of Russia’s yoke. Their economic resources (like the Crimean Peninsula’s oil fields and the vast plains where wheat is grown) are and have been Putin’s obvious gosls (he reconquered Crimea some years back), but it’s all cloaked in *very* alarming, religious ethnonationalistic terms.

    This kindnof thing is also happening in other Central and Eastern European countries, like Poland and Hungary (although it’s happening vis-a-vis Catholicism there).

    Patriarch Kiril wants to crush the Ukrsinian Orthodox Church, among other things. He and Putin want to suppress all aspects of Ukraine as an independent state and culture. This war is their bid to do just that, and they are *extremely* clear-eyed and cool-headed about what they are doing, how and why. Many Russians suuport them. I mean, ***many.*** (and many don’t at all.)

    I highly recommend the reporting of Katherine Kelaidis (she’s Greek Orthodox and is a scholar of Eastern Slavic languages, history and culture). She tells it like it is . You can find her pieces at religiondispatches[dot]org. Some of her colleagues there are also reporting, but their work is more academic-sounding than Kelaidis’. She’s that rare kind of scholar who can write in a way that anyone can understand.

    People in the Orthodox world see the religious stuff for what it is, but few people in the West understand it. RD is the only English-language site I’ve found that has solid reporting on these aspects of the war + historical context. Westetners don’t get these aspects of things unless they know something about the history and what’s at stake.

    Disclaimer: i can’t read Russian or any other Slsvic languages,,but i took a lot of Russian/Soviet history courses back in the day, and still love many aspects of Russian culture. I’ve long wanted to travel there, although at this point… not so much. It has everything to do with Putin.

  61. Muff – am not a huge fan of the Brandenburgs, but the sonatas and partitas for solo violin and the cello sonatas are truly wondrous, soaring, holy – to me, anyway.

    I like a lot of his hymns and choral music very much. I mean, i was raised Lutheran, Bach was Lutheran, we sang hymns adapted from many of the great Reformation-era chorales by Bach and others. (There were other amazing composers writing church music at that time, not just the Bach family.)

    As for your comparison to contemporary “worship music,” well – compadre! (Though there are a few pieces from that repertoire that i really like.)

    But comparing Bach’s music to that music is like comparing apples and oranges, imo. It doesn’t work. Bach is stellar, many orrders of magnitude beyond most of the composers from all over this world, though by no means all!

  62. Umm… i think that we need to respect Dee’s “prime directive” WRT to US politics.

    I know that’s likely not fair of me to say, since i posted a few things in recent weeks that veered into that territory, but in doing it, i myself broke Dee’s house rules. That wasn’t right.

    Am *not* meaning to criticize or judge anyone, b/c i know how deep these things can run. Still… there are other places where the political discussions can be had.

    As for my thoughtsmon both Putin and Patriarch Kiril, make of that what you will. Are they somewhwt oblique comments on other countries? Yes, they are, but it’s not something i can expand upon here.

    Pax,
    n.

  63. One other thought: Russian religious ethnonationalism is notoriously antisemitic. Since the fall of the USSR, a militant antisemitic contingent of the Orthodox has come roaring back to life.

    The president of Ukraine is Jewish.

    I don’t know of any current reporting on this particular aspect of things, only that the issues and hatred have never gone away. The Soviets were vehemently antisemitic, too, especially after Stalin took power.

  64. numo: During the tsars, Moscow was called the “third Rome” (after Rome and Constantinople/Istanbul), “holy Russia,” “holy Mother Russia” and the like. These concepts and phrases have all been revived with a vengeance since Putin has consolidated his power.

    “Two Romes have fallen;
    A third – Moscow – stands;
    NEVER SHALL THERE BE A FOURTH!”

  65. numo wrote:
    “Bach is stellar, many orders of magnitude beyond most of the composers from all over this world, though by no means all!”

    And on that note, I think Brahms 1st symphony is every bit as stellar as any music anywhere.

  66. Muff – i love Brahmss’ chamber works. Not really acquainted with his symphonies, but i guess i should check them out. Thanks for the rec!

  67. numo: One other thought: Russian religious ethnonationalism is notoriously antisemitic. Since the fall of the USSR, a militant antisemitic contingent of the Orthodox has come roaring back to life.

    Remember where Protocols of the Elders of Zion came from.
    Okhrana Dezinformatzia Op, first pushed by Russian Orthodoxy.

    And I remember a throwaway line from the film version of Fiddler on the Roof, where a Tsarist official orders a Pogrom against “those Christ-killers” in Anatevka.

    P.S. QAnon’s Vast Conspiracy against Our Children is a direct plagiarism of The Protocols. The main differences are calling Them “The Cabal” and trafficking Our Children to extract Adrenochrome from their brains instead of baking their blood into Passover Matzoi. (And I have heard that original “Old School” Blood Libel as recently as two years ago, in the fringe environment of comment threads to a YouTube Paranormal video.)

  68. Long ago I noticed something about political crazies:
    Extreme Left or Extreme Right, total opposites with only one thing in common:
    THEY BOTH HATED JEWS.

  69. About the Protocols: i was surprised some years back when, on looking for info. on possible authorship, it turned out that the origin you’ve cited is hypothetical. To date, nobody seems to know exactly who assembled it (apparently much of it is plagiarized from a variety of sources), but the 1st date of publication of excerpts is known. So is the fact that fleeing White Russians brought it west with them, where it took on a life of its own independent of Russia, pogroms in Russia, etc. I don’t doubt that members of the tearist secret police might well have been involved, but that appears to be an open question. I have *no* doubt that they used it, though.

    https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion

  70. And at this point, now that Russia’s state archives are once again closed to Western (and Russian) researchers, i wonder if its origins will ever be traced.